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PeterJ
Sep 14th 2007, 04:57 PM
Pre to having are perfect bodys in Heaven, will we be albe to to sin still?
When we recive are perfect bodys in Heaven will we be albe to sin still?

We won't be albe kill in Heaven and won't have evil thoughts from fallan angels as we do on earth.

How does having a perfect body prevent us from sinning?
We still have freewill still in Heaven? Won't we have to lose are freewill to be perfect?

We know satan and the angels was perfect but still sin, does that mean that if they could we could? Was that because they had freewill?
Anyhow we will be perfect but if we dont obey God cause we have freewill that's a sin right?

Yours Peter

Joe King
Sep 14th 2007, 05:33 PM
I think God will protect us from sinning and temptation.

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 05:41 PM
Hi PeterJ :)
Pre to having are perfect bodys in Heaven, will we be albe to to sin still?
When we recive are perfect bodys in Heaven will we be albe to sin still?

Can't possibly answer that question from the Bible I'm afraid, because the Bible says nothing about going to heaven except John 3:13. However the answer in the resurrection is, thankfully, no:

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Luke 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

The wages of sin are death. So if they can't die, ergo they can't sin.


We know satan and the angels was perfect but still sin, does that mean that if they could we could?Did they? Where does the Bible say that? Well if they could then what Jesus said in matt22:30 about angels not marrying or dieing is a bit odd. Look also at Heb1:14 - it says "all" angels, not "some" angels. ;)
God bless
Steven

Sold Out
Sep 14th 2007, 06:22 PM
Pre to having are perfect bodys in Heaven, will we be albe to to sin still?
When we recive are perfect bodys in Heaven will we be albe to sin still?

We won't be albe kill in Heaven and won't have evil thoughts from fallan angels as we do on earth.

How does having a perfect body prevent us from sinning?
We still have freewill still in Heaven? Won't we have to lose are freewill to be perfect?

We know satan and the angels was perfect but still sin, does that mean that if they could we could? Was that because they had freewill?
Anyhow we will be perfect but if we dont obey God cause we have freewill that's a sin right?

Yours Peter

We will be free of this sinful body in heaven. The sin nature will be gone.

PeterJ
Sep 14th 2007, 06:37 PM
Hi PeterJ :)

Can't possibly answer that question from the Bible I'm afraid, because the Bible says nothing about going to heaven except John 3:13. However the answer in the resurrection is, thankfully, no:

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Luke 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

The wages of sin are death. So if they can't die, ergo they can't sin.

Did they? Where does the Bible say that? Well if they could then what Jesus said in matt22:30 about angels not marrying or dieing is a bit odd. Look also at Heb1:14 - it says "all" angels, not "some" angels. ;)
God bless
Steven

That means we can still sin untill we get are new body?

Matthew 22:30 says we be like the angels, but the angels did sin and joined satan, does that mean we got the freewill to sin? like they did?

I ment satan and the angels had perfect bodys, or did they not?
If they have perfect bodys and we will, does that mean we could sin to?

Did they sin cause they had freewill? will we have freewill?
Or will we have freewill of perfect goodness?

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 07:52 PM
Hi Peter :)
That means we can still sin until we get are new body?If we're alive we'll sin. If we're dead we'll sleep (the dead cannot praise God, see Psalm 6:5). If we're raised, or alive when Christ returns, we'll be judged. If we're judged acceptable we'll be transformed "like unto his glorious body".

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.


Matthew 22:30 says we be like the angels, but the angels did sin and joined satan, does that mean we got the freewill to sin? like they did?

I ment satan and the angels had perfect bodys, or did they not?
If they have perfect bodys and we will, does that mean we could sin to?

Did they sin cause they had freewill? will we have freewill?
Or will we have freewill of perfect goodness?Well you've asked a very good question because if all those stories about angels having fallen from heaven are literally true, and we're going to be like angels, then sure why not - there's no guarantee that we wouldn't sin like the angels did. If the stories are true.

Maybe the fallen angels are Christians who were 'perfected', sinned again, then went back in time to tempt Adam & Eve. That's an idea I've heard. though I think it's tutti frutti. :rolleyes:
God bless
S,

Steve M
Sep 14th 2007, 07:54 PM
Hi Peter :)If we're alive we'll sin. If we're dead we'll sleep (the dead cannot praise God, see Psalm 6:5). If we're raised, or alive when Christ returns, we'll be judged. If we're judged acceptable we'll be transformed "like unto his glorious body".

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Well you've asked a very good question because if all those stories about angels having fallen from heaven are literally true, and we're going to be like angels, then sure why not - there's no guarantee that we wouldn't sin like the angels did. If the stories are true.

Maybe the fallen angels are Christians who were 'perfected', sinned again, then went back in time to tempt Adam & Eve. That's an idea I've heard. though I think it's tutti frutti. :rolleyes:
God bless
S,
Psst... add to that the verse where Paul asked, rhetorically, 'know you know that we will judge angels?'

Just to further confuse the question.

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 08:00 PM
Psst... add to that the verse where Paul asked, rhetorically, 'know you know that we will judge angels?'

Just to further confuse the question.

SteveM takes can opener dangerously near large can of worms... :rolleyes:I

Steve M
Sep 14th 2007, 08:04 PM
SteveM takes can opener dangerously near large can of worms... :rolleyes:I
I can't help it; it's in my nature. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... and I've got very little. :)

Vickilynn
Sep 14th 2007, 08:08 PM
Shalom Peter,

Sin is found in the flesh. IN HEAVEN we are not in the flesh, so no, we cannot sin. There is no sin in the presence of G-d and if we are in His presence in Heaven (which we are), we cannot sin.

We will not sin because we will "be like the angels" (not marrying and not giving in marriage.)

Mark 12
24Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because(AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AO)) you know neither the Scriptures nor(AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AP)) the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24691AQ)) marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Revelation 21:
1Then I saw(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039A)) a new heaven and a new earth, for(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039B)) the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040C)) the holy city,(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040D)) new Jerusalem,(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040E)) coming down out of heaven from God,(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040F)) prepared(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040G)) as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold,(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041H)) the dwelling place[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041a)] of God is with man. He will(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041I)) dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041b)] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041c)] 4(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042J)) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042K)) death shall be no more,(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042L)) neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

Sold Out
Sep 14th 2007, 08:26 PM
Well you've asked a very good question because if all those stories about angels having fallen from heaven are literally true, and we're going to be like angels, then sure why not - there's no guarantee that we wouldn't sin like the angels did. If the stories are true.

. :rolleyes:
God bless
S,

We won't be like angels...we will get a glorified body like Christ's.

I Cor 15:42-49 "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven."

Steven3
Sep 14th 2007, 08:33 PM
We won't be like angels...we will get a glorified body like Christ's.

I Cor 15:42-49 "So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven."


Good post

But this refers to after the return of Christ to earth and the resurrection, I think PeterJ is asking about sinning "in heaven", what's to prevent a dead person who goes to heaven sinning between going to heaven and the resurrection described in the above verses?

God bless :rolleyes:
S.

Sold Out
Sep 14th 2007, 08:38 PM
Good post

But this refers to after the return of Christ to earth and the resurrection, I think PeterJ is asking about sinning "in heaven", what's to prevent a dead person who goes to heaven sinning between going to heaven and the resurrection described in the above verses?

God bless :rolleyes:
S.

Thanks.


I guess what we have to know is what causes us to sin? Our fleshly body, right?

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 14th 2007, 08:47 PM
James 1:14,15
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death

RogerW
Sep 14th 2007, 09:20 PM
Good post

But this refers to after the return of Christ to earth and the resurrection, I think PeterJ is asking about sinning "in heaven", what's to prevent a dead person who goes to heaven sinning between going to heaven and the resurrection described in the above verses?

God bless :rolleyes:
S.

Greetings Steven,

I believe the answer can be found in Rev 12. The chapter begins with Christ being born through the nation symbolized as the woman with "the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". There was another sign in heaven at the birth of Christ, "there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads". "His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." But Christ was born, and He was "caught up unto God, and to his throne." The woman here symbolizes the universal church "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

Next we read of a war taking place in heaven between Michael and his messengers and Satan and his messengers, and Satan and his messengers were cast out of heaven unto the earth and his messengers were cast out with him. I believe Michael symbolizes Christ after His victory over death and the grave. Now Satan is loosed upon the woman (church) that had given birth to Christ, the woman (church) is nourished for a time, and the devil goes after "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Guess it's too late to make a long story short ;)...but, once Christ defeated death and ascended into heaven it was no longer possible for Satan and his gang to remain in heaven. Now when believers die and go spiritually to heaven we have Christ's assurance that we cannot sin, for if we have been made perfect through Spiritual life how could we sin in heaven?

Interesting topic, I thought at first what an odd question, but makes perfect sense when looking at sin from the vantage of fallen messengers.

RW

C@ughtintheswirl
Sep 15th 2007, 12:52 AM
To throw more fuel (or scripture) on to the fire,

What does everyone make of the following scriptures on the topic of "Can we still sin in heaven?"

32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 28:32 NIV)22

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
(Isaiah 66:22-24 NIV)

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV)

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 11:30 AM
Hi RogerW
Greetings Steven,

I believe the answer can be found in Rev 12. Thanks. I think that's a much more sensible reading of the content and meaning of Rev12 than we sometimes hear. We'd differ only in that you're taking two of the symbols (i.e. Satan and Michael) literally. I would take all the symbols as symbolic, having a corresponding mundane identity on earth. But overall it's a coherent and convincing reading.
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 11:32 AM
Hi Caughtintheswirl :)
To throw more fuel (or scripture) on to the fire,

What does everyone make of the following scriptures on the topic of "Can we still sin in heaven?"

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 28:32 NIV)22

"As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
(Isaiah 66:22-24 NIV)

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV)

These verses have more to do with the goats entering into Gehenna than the sheep entering into eternal life don't they?
S

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 12:27 PM
Hi Peter :)If we're alive we'll sin. If we're dead we'll sleep (the dead cannot praise God, see Psalm 6:5). If we're raised, or alive when Christ returns, we'll be judged. If we're judged acceptable we'll be transformed "like unto his glorious body".

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Well you've asked a very good question because if all those stories about angels having fallen from heaven are literally true, and we're going to be like angels, then sure why not - there's no guarantee that we wouldn't sin like the angels did. If the stories are true.

Maybe the fallen angels are Christians who were 'perfected', sinned again, then went back in time to tempt Adam & Eve. That's an idea I've heard. though I think it's tutti frutti. :rolleyes:
God bless
S,

We wont be asleep, i dont belive that, bible does not say that.

Bible says we be like the angels right? so that means not better than the angels?
But if we judge angels does that make us a bit better than them?

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 12:30 PM
Shalom Peter,

Sin is found in the flesh. IN HEAVEN we are not in the flesh, so no, we cannot sin. There is no sin in the presence of G-d and if we are in His presence in Heaven (which we are), we cannot sin.

We will not sin because we will "be like the angels" (not marrying and not giving in marriage.)

Mark 12
24Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because(AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AO)) you know neither the Scriptures nor(AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AP)) the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24691AQ)) marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Revelation 21:
1Then I saw(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039A)) a new heaven and a new earth, for(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039B)) the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040C)) the holy city,(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040D)) new Jerusalem,(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040E)) coming down out of heaven from God,(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040F)) prepared(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040G)) as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold,(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041H)) the dwelling place[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041a)] of God is with man. He will(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041I)) dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041b)] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041c)] 4(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042J)) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042K)) death shall be no more,(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042L)) neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

Hi how are you?

That verse does not cover everything; can we still sin in disobedience?
Do we have freewill? what does the bible say?

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 12:44 PM
Guess it's too late to make a long story short ;)...but, once Christ defeated death and ascended into heaven it was no longer possible for Satan and his gang to remain in heaven. Now when believers die and go spiritually to heaven we have Christ's assurance that we cannot sin, for if we have been made perfect through Spiritual life how could we sin in heaven?

Interesting topic, I thought at first what an odd question, but makes perfect sense when looking at sin from the vantage of fallen messengers.

RW

Hi sorry i dont understand, how do we have Christ's assurance that we cannot sin?
We will be in the 3rd Heaven; at this present time satan and his fallen angels is in the 2nd Heaven.
satan have very limited access to the 3rd.

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 12:45 PM
Anyone else can add something to the pie?

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 12:52 PM
Hi PeterJ
We wont be asleep, i dont believe that, bible does not say that.Why not? What's wrong with sleep? Besides, I'm afraid the Bible does teach death is sleep. Check a concordance :)

Psalm 13:3 Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep.


Bible says we be like the angels right? so that means not better than the angels?
But if we judge angels does that make us a bit better than them?Like in two respects - not marrying / sinning & dieing.
S

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 12:54 PM
PeterJ :)
at this present time satan and his fallen angels is in the 2nd Heaven.

Is there any scripture to back this up? I've never heard of "the Second Heaven" in the Bible.
God bless
S.

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 01:17 PM
Hi PeterJWhy not? What's wrong with sleep? Besides, I'm afraid the Bible does teach death is sleep. Check a concordance :)

Psalm 13:3 Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,

John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep.

Like in two respects - not marrying / sinning & dieing.
S

Bible says to be absent from the body, is to be with Jesus.

PeterJ
Sep 15th 2007, 01:20 PM
PeterJ :)

Is there any scripture to back this up? I've never heard of "the Second Heaven" in the Bible.
God bless
S.



Revelation 12

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 01:32 PM
Hi PeterJ :)
Bible says to be absent from the body, is to be with Jesus.

Er, no, no it doesn't. Sorry but you've just misquoted the verse. The Bible doesn't say that. What it says is:

2 Co 5:8 We are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You've changed and to is - a tiny tiny change to the word of God but a change that changes the meaning of the verse. It makes the difference between going direct to be with Jesus immediately, and waiting/sleeping until Jesus comes to us (what the whole of 2Co5 says).

2 Co 5: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Do you see the difference:
- At home in the body is absent from the Lord, but
- Absent from the body is not (automatically/immediately) present with the Lord

Please see http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100394
:)

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 01:34 PM
Hi :)

Is there any scripture to back this up? I've never heard of "the Second Heaven" in the Bible.
Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

So where does it say "Second Heaven"?

Vickilynn
Sep 15th 2007, 03:15 PM
Hi how are you?

Shalom Peter!

Hey, doing fine! How are you??? Good to see you still posting these posts.

BTW, "Soul Sleep' is a Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, not widely accepted. I don't believe it is Scriptural, but that's for another thread. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar doctrine.

I believe the Bible says we will be ALIVE in Heaven with Jesus when we die, not "sleeping".


That verse does not cover everything; can we still sin in disobedience?
Do we have freewill? what does the bible say?We can only sin in the flesh. Once we are in Heaven, we are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit where we CAN NOT sin. Again, we are in G-d's presence, where there is no sin.

We are born-again and made new. We are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 04:20 PM
Hi Vicky :)
BTW, "Soul Sleep' is a Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, not widely accepted. I don't believe it is Scriptural, but that's for another thread. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar doctrine.Here in England it is more usually associated with Episcopalians. Our local Church of England vicar believes it. So if Seventh Day Adventists teach it, good for them. FWIW as far as Jehovah's Witness are concerned I understand that they teach that concerning non-JWs, but they, or at least 144,000 of them do in fact go to be with Christ immediately on death. But perhaps we should judge this on the merits of what the Bible says rather than a 'beauty contest' of who believes what? ;)

Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

God bless
S.

RogerW
Sep 15th 2007, 05:14 PM
Hi sorry i dont understand, how do we have Christ's assurance that we cannot sin?
We will be in the 3rd Heaven; at this present time satan and his fallen angels is in the 2nd Heaven.
satan have very limited access to the 3rd.

Greetings PeterJ,

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it is spiritually that we enter into the third heaven when we physically die in Christ. Since we then walk in the Spirit we can no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh, we can never sin again.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Ga 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

A good argument can be made for believers going immediately upon physical death to be with the Lord spiritually. We won't be re-united with our new glorified bodies until the Second Coming, and these will no longer be as our bodies now are. They will be immortal, and incorruptible.

If we read 2Co 5 in context we find v 1 speaking about our earthly house (physical body) being dissolved, but we're reminded that we have a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens. V 2 speaks of longing to be clothed with this house which is from heaven. V 4 says we groan being burdened in this tabernacle, and long for mortality to be swallowed up with life. Then we read in vss 6-8 of the confidence we have, knowing that as long as we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, but we know that when we depart spiritually from this mortal body (dwelling place of the Spirit), then we will be present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Look at vs 8 in the Literal Concordance Version.

2Co 5:8 yet we are encouraged, and are delighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Paul speaks in much the same way to the Philippians. He says dying in Christ is gain, but if living in the flesh causes him to have fruit from his work, then he finds within himself this conflict of wanting to die and be with the Lord, but realizing that it is far better for them that he continues to live.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

I think a good argument can also be made for the third heaven, also called paradise being the dwelling place of God. This is also where we find the tree of life. Some say that the first heaven is the visible sky, and the second heaven the outer galaxies beyond the visible sky. I don't know if this argument is made from the Bible, or comes from man realizing that since the third heaven in the dwelling place of God, it stands to reason there must also be a first and second heaven. It was the third heaven, the dwelling place of God that Christ cast Satan and his messengers from.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

When Christ defeated Satan at the cross, and ascended into the third heaven, I believe part of what Christ meant when He says, "I go there to prepare a place for you" was Him casting the demonic hosts from heaven. Once Christ did this Satan was no longer able to accuse the brethren before the throne of God like he had before the victory of the cross.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Blessings,
RW

Vickilynn
Sep 15th 2007, 05:17 PM
Hi Vicky :)Here in England it is more usually associated with Episcopalians. Our local Church of England vicar believes it. So if Seventh Day Adventists teach it, good for them. FWIW as far as Jehovah's Witness are concerned I understand that they teach that concerning non-JWs, but they, or at least 144,000 of them do in fact go to be with Christ immediately on death. But perhaps we should judge this on the merits of what the Bible says rather than a 'beauty contest' of who believes what? ;)

Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

God bless
S.

Shalom S,

My name is Vickilynn, but my family in Messiah calls me VL. :D Thanks!

Your comment about a "beauty contest" is rather disturbing and really has no bearing on this conversation.

I was giving some background as to the beliefs to PeterJ. If you wish to refute them, please do, in another thread, but these type of remarks are best left out of mature Christian discussions.

Thanks!

Debra R
Sep 15th 2007, 06:45 PM
Shalom Peter,

Sin is found in the flesh. IN HEAVEN we are not in the flesh, so no, we cannot sin. There is no sin in the presence of G-d and if we are in His presence in Heaven (which we are), we cannot sin.

We will not sin because we will "be like the angels" (not marrying and not giving in marriage.)

Mark 12
24Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because(AO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AO)) you know neither the Scriptures nor(AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24690AP)) the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-24691AQ)) marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Revelation 21:
1Then I saw(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039A)) a new heaven and a new earth, for(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31039B)) the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040C)) the holy city,(D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040D)) new Jerusalem,(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040E)) coming down out of heaven from God,(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040F)) prepared(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31040G)) as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold,(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041H)) the dwelling place[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041a)] of God is with man. He will(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31041I)) dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041b)] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#fen-ESV-31041c)] 4(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042J)) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042K)) death shall be no more,(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&version=47&context=chapter#cen-ESV-31042L)) neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

Hi Vickilynn :hug:,

the scripture in Revelation was my first thought too :).
Sin resulted in sickness and death. Revelation tells us that God will wipe away every tear, there will be no more death, no mourning, no crying, nor pain. So if those things are gone that should tell us that sin is gone too.

Blessings :hug:

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 07:35 PM
Hi Vickylynn
Your comment about a "beauty contest" is rather disturbing and really has no bearing on this conversation. Sorry, if you've never heard the phrase, it may be an Australianism, but it was not intended to disturb you, it merely refers to focusing on politicians' personalities rather than their policies. e.g. Australian Labour Party president: Give us policies, not a beauty contest (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/06/10/1055010963098.html), or similar in economic circles when tendering and bidding. I've heard this phrase so often I didn't think it would be misunderstood.

So removing the offending phrase the suggestion remains that perhaps we should judge what the Bible says on its own merits rather than who believes what. That's all ;)

Anyway, you take care
Have a good day :)
S.

Vickilynn
Sep 15th 2007, 07:51 PM
So removing the offending phrase the suggestion remains that perhaps we should judge what the Bible says on its own merits rather than who believes what. S.

Shalom S,

And that's what we're doing. :D Answering the questions according to the Bible.
I understood your comment completely, but I did not feel it was edifying to the conversation in response to my post. That's all.

And a little background, history and information never hurts when trying to examine the Scriptures, in fact, it can sometimes help understand why people interpret the Scriptures as they do.

You see, we are ALL talking about the Scriptures, yet some groups interpret them differently than others and it helps to understand that.

Shabbat shalom!

Steven3
Sep 16th 2007, 01:35 PM
Hi Vickylynn
You see, we are ALL talking about the Scriptures, yet some groups interpret them differently than others and it helps to understand that.Well fair enough, I did myself point out on another thread last week that heaven-going was also taught by Muslims. But generally it's best to assess Bible verses on their own merits.
Take care
Steven

PeterJ
Sep 16th 2007, 04:53 PM
Hi :)

So where does it say "Second Heaven"?

There are 3 Heavens Sky 1st

Space 2nd Heaven

3rd Heaven God resides.


That verse says Heaven, am sure its 2nd Heaven not first, I talked to many posters on the board and know they reside in the 2n heaven.
Maybe some one can give input.

PeterJ
Sep 16th 2007, 04:55 PM
Shalom Peter!

Hey, doing fine! How are you??? Good to see you still posting these posts.

BTW, "Soul Sleep' is a Seventh Day Adventist doctrine, not widely accepted. I don't believe it is Scriptural, but that's for another thread. The Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar doctrine.

I believe the Bible says we will be ALIVE in Heaven with Jesus when we die, not "sleeping".

We can only sin in the flesh. Once we are in Heaven, we are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit where we CAN NOT sin. Again, we are in G-d's presence, where there is no sin.

We are born-again and made new. We are not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Hi thxs:)

Do you have a verse where it says we cant sin in Heaven? not in thought obeying etc.

mickeyrory
Oct 3rd 2007, 03:52 AM
I'm with Steven. First of all, find a verse in scripture that says we go to heaven. I don't mean one that has to be interpreted to mean that. If there isn't one in all of scripture on such an important doctrine, then you should ask the obvious question. Where do we go? There are numerous verses that give the answer in very clear understandable words, not ambiguous verses such as "in my Father's house."

Mickey