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justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 02:21 PM
Hi,

I know there are at least 2 very well studied, :), believers on the forum that believe in soul sleep. With all due respect, I don't. I don't want to debate. I want to "hear out" what your position states.

I have been pondering on the body/soul of sin and the spirit/soul of salvation. I believe the 2 souls/spirits of a person in sin and salvation are 100% separate and different. This means, to me, that a potential (the way I look at things) does exist for "soul sleep" to those souls who are directly connected to the flesh of Adam in sin (the unsaved).

To me, bless you, there is no potential of "soul sleep" to those who are alive in Christ who have a soul directly connected to born-again spirits in Christ.

(I can see why it "could" be possible that a person who has only a soul (of the sinful nature) directly connected to earthly flesh only (you know the scripture that says of this earth, sensual, devilish... etc.)... may possibly have a soul that stops "being conscious"... when the body is completely dead. But I can't see enough to completely rule it out or believe it scripturally. I'm "on the fence"... and won't "rule out" or "believe" something until I see the "big picture".)

Some points: Whether or not I believe the stories of those who died, went to hell and came back alive and became Christians.. an experiential testimony is not biblically "scientific" as a point of reference. I "throw out" personal experiential testimonies as a baseline for biblical truth (They're not sola scripture). I trust the Word alone as the formation of doctrinal positions.

I really have a few questions regarding soul sleep to ask of those who hold the position (recognizing that others will want to share their opposite views that no soul sleep exists).

Here's my first question:

Satan and the evil angels, like Adam, fell from grace. It's not an "exact parallel" with humans... but how do you answer that they are fully conscious... and never experience "soul sleep"?? Don't they die physically?

I'm trying to create "baselines"... so I can biblically logically see the "big picture". I would like to compare/contrast to "look for" biblically illogical pre-suppositions/false conclusions on my part... or yours. :)

Appreciate your assistance.

Love in Christ,

js

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 02:45 PM
Hi Laura :)
It's not technically "soul sleep" because in Hebrew the "soul dies",

Numbers 6:6 “All the days that he separates himself to the Lord he shall not go near a dead person [Hebrew "dead soul"].

Ezekiel 13:19 You have profaned me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, putting to death souls who should not die and keeping alive souls who should not live, by your lying to my people, who listen to lies.

I'd prefer "soul interruption" which fits Matt10:28, but okay, I guess "soul sleep" is near enough :)

Genesis 37:35 All his sons and daughters came to Jacob to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I go down to Sheol [Hades] to my son [Joseph]." So his father wept for him.

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.

Job 7:21 Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more."

Job 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

Jeremiah 51:39 But while they are aroused,
I will set out a feast for them
and make them drunk,
so that they shout with laughter—
then sleep forever and not awake,"
declares the LORD.

1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 If no resurrection of the dead.... Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

etc etc etc.



Here's my first question:

Satan and the evil angels, like Adam, fell from grace. It's not an "exact parallel" with humans... but how do you answer that they are fully conscious... and never experience "soul sleep"?? Don't they die physically?If we assume that the "devil and his angels" in Matt25:41 are literal fallen heavenly beings then we might assume that the eternal fire was literal too. But in any case God never said to an angel (Gen 3:3) ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” so all we have on the subject is this:

Luke 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

God bless :)
S.

justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 02:53 PM
[quote=Steven3;1382258]Hi Laura :)
It's not technically "soul sleep" because in Hebrew the "soul dies",


Thank you for the clarification. But now we have to "tie in" soul death and soul sleep. Will your position state that because the bodies dies... the soul in death is merely sleeping... because that dead body will be resurrected... thus the "sleeping soul" will be awakened via resurrection?

Is that how to tie in the 2 different phrases? I need to first clarify my thinking in clearly defining terms and sequential activity... to see truth, imo.

So I need to see first if you agree with that... or please point counterpoint me... then I'll review the rest of the scriptures you gave.

Appreciate the help! I want to see what you are seeing... and scripture advises very strongly not to judge a matter before hearing it. The greatest errors I see serious students of the bible make is "judging" a matter from their own paradigm... without first truly hearing it out completely from the position of the paradigm of another.

That's why people debate instead of grow... as a primary cause... based on my observations of how we receive revelation from God.

Again, really appreciate you helping me to see from your paradigm. Only then will I know if it fits, or what "fits"... in mine. (If mine is "left standing"... lol)

God bless,

js

justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 03:08 PM
If we assume that the "devil and his angels" in Matt25:41 are literal fallen heavenly beings then we might assume that the eternal fire was literal too. But in any case God never said to an angel (Gen 3:3) ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” so all we have on the subject is this:

Luke 20:36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
OK, I gotta ask. What do you mean? :)

You hinted at this on another thread... that you don't believe Satan is literally a fallen angel. Metaphysically, neither do I. What was an angel is now a demon. What was an archangel is now Satan. Complete separation of former states of being... dark separated from life... I could go on but I won't.

Do you see what I am saying, too? They can never die. Those fallen angels who have died are not the holy angels in Christ who have not died and can never die. Does that mean that they can "live forever" in a fallen state? Only if someone scratches the surface, imo. Go deeper... and they still exist in their perfect state... in a form of "soul sleep"... hee hee.

They are not in practical existence in a body... but their spirits returned to God who gave them and they are sons of God in Christ.

There's revelation to be had here... and I want it. :)

It's going to hit like power like I've never seen, imo... and I want it!!!! :)

I want to attain full maturity in Christ... :)

There is a level of revelation that must be "hit" to "nail"... "entire sanctification"... complete separation of dark and light... and there's a key right in front of me... I can't quite see!!! lol

What do you see?

Love in Christ,

js

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 04:00 PM
Hi Laura :)
Thank you for the clarification. But now we have to "tie in" soul death and soul sleep. Will your position state that because the bodies dies... the soul in death is merely sleeping... because that dead body will be resurrected... thus the "sleeping soul" will be awakened via resurrection?Well again, using Biblical terminology the Bible never says "the body dies", in the Bible the "soul dies". God said to Moses, "you will sleep", so Moses himself would sleep, not "your soul will sleep". Can I suggest clicking on this (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=05315) , this is the Blueletterbible concordance entry for nefesh (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=05315), the Hebrew word for soul. That will show that in the OT a soul is always a living being with a body, dust + breath = soul

Of course I'm English and in England the idea of "soul sleep" (as most people call it, though as I said "soul interruption" would be more correct technically) has a long and healthy tradition in the Baptist and Non-Conformist churches, and today in the Episcopalian/Anglican churches. Some of this is simple liberalism/scepticism masquerading as rational belief, but isn't all. I for one believe in full plenary inspiration, miracles, etc. It isn't scepticism, just what the Bible appears to say.

For example A.T. Wright, Bishop of Durham, is no sceptic, he bases his arguments on the Bible text : Bishop abolishes heaven and the Soul (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164942.ece?token=null&offset=0) (London Times article). In his book For All the Saints (http://www.amazon.com/All-Saints-Remembering-Christian-Departed/dp/0819221333), Tom Wright demonstrates that traditional Christianity has misread New Testament teaching about death. The book shows that man is not born with an "immortal soul" and that the hope is resurrection when Christ comes from heaven, quote: ‘Immortality is a gift of God in Christ, not an innate human capacity.’ What Christians look forward to instead is bodily resurrection within God’s new creation after a period of ‘rest with Christ’. And this isn't a 16th Century invention since the Apostles Creed and 1 Clement also teach resurrection of the body, not the immortal soul.
God bless
S


PS. As regards the other question, re. Satan, if you don't mind I'd rather leave that for the time being. Like many Jews also so (I'm not Jewish, I mean I share their view on this) I read Satan in Job1 and Zech3 as a symbol, so naturally therefore when Satan appears in the NT I also read it as a symbol. But I understand that most Christians don't and that's fine with me, as long as the whole fallen angel, Lucifer, thing doesn't overshadow the rest of the Bible. But this question you're asking about life and death (ontology, study of existence, what is life?) is a much more basic and central subject.

RogerW
Sep 15th 2007, 05:25 PM
Hi,

I know there are at least 2 very well studied, :), believers on the forum that believe in soul sleep. With all due respect, I don't. I don't want to debate. I want to "hear out" what your position states.

I have been pondering on the body/soul of sin and the spirit/soul of salvation. I believe the 2 souls/spirits of a person in sin and salvation are 100% separate and different. This means, to me, that a potential (the way I look at things) does exist for "soul sleep" to those souls who are directly connected to the flesh of Adam in sin (the unsaved).

To me, bless you, there is no potential of "soul sleep" to those who are alive in Christ who have a soul directly connected to born-again spirits in Christ.

(I can see why it "could" be possible that a person who has only a soul (of the sinful nature) directly connected to earthly flesh only (you know the scripture that says of this earth, sensual, devilish... etc.)... may possibly have a soul that stops "being conscious"... when the body is completely dead. But I can't see enough to completely rule it out or believe it scripturally. I'm "on the fence"... and won't "rule out" or "believe" something until I see the "big picture".)

Some points: Whether or not I believe the stories of those who died, went to hell and came back alive and became Christians.. an experiential testimony is not biblically "scientific" as a point of reference. I "throw out" personal experiential testimonies as a baseline for biblical truth (They're not sola scripture). I trust the Word alone as the formation of doctrinal positions.

I really have a few questions regarding soul sleep to ask of those who hold the position (recognizing that others will want to share their opposite views that no soul sleep exists).

Here's my first question:

Satan and the evil angels, like Adam, fell from grace. It's not an "exact parallel" with humans... but how do you answer that they are fully conscious... and never experience "soul sleep"?? Don't they die physically?

I'm trying to create "baselines"... so I can biblically logically see the "big picture". I would like to compare/contrast to "look for" biblically illogical pre-suppositions/false conclusions on my part... or yours. :)

Appreciate your assistance.

Love in Christ,

js

Greetings Laura,

Let me first say that I do not believe in soul sleep. Before going to deeply into this discussion let me ask you...what is the difference between the one who physically dies in unbelief and the one who physically dies in Christ?

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 05:26 PM
Of course I'm English and in England the idea of "soul sleep" (as most people call it, though as I said "soul interruption" would be more correct technically) has a long and healthy tradition in the Baptist and Non-Conformist churches, and today in the Episcopalian/Anglican churches. Some of this is simple liberalism/scepticism masquerading as rational belief, but isn't all. I for one believe in full plenary inspiration, miracles, etc. It isn't scepticism, just what the Bible appears to say.

For example A.T. Wright, Bishop of Durham, is no sceptic, he bases his arguments on the Bible text : Bishop abolishes heaven and the Soul (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164942.ece?token=null&offset=0) (London Times article). In his book For All the Saints (http://www.amazon.com/All-Saints-Remembering-Christian-Departed/dp/0819221333), Tom Wright demonstrates that traditional Christianity has misread New Testament teaching about death. The book shows that man is not born with an "immortal soul" and that the hope is resurrection when Christ comes from heaven, quote: ‘Immortality is a gift of God in Christ, not an innate human capacity.’ What Christians look forward to instead is bodily resurrection within God’s new creation after a period of ‘rest with Christ’. And this isn't a 16th Century invention since the Apostles Creed and 1 Clement also teach resurrection of the body, not the immortal soul.


I recently visited an Episcopal church. I've attended numerous denominations. I am broadly exposed enough that I don't have a "bunker mentality" that "won't listen" to other points of view... and labels them on the basis of difference.

I'll study out what you've given me thus far, try to form understanding... then come back and check with you what I see.


PS. As regards the other question, re. Satan, if you don't mind I'd rather leave that for the time being. Like many Jews also so (I'm not Jewish, I mean I share their view on this) I read Satan in Job1 and Zech3 as a symbol, so naturally therefore when Satan appears in the NT I also read it as a symbol. But I understand that most Christians don't and that's fine with me, as long as the whole fallen angel, Lucifer, thing doesn't overshadow the rest of the Bible. But this question you're asking about life and death (ontology, study of existence, what is life?) is a much more basic and central subject.

OK, we can leave it for now. I do believe Satan is a literal person and being whose primary "being" is spiritual in nature. But I would agree with you that by no means should Lucifer or Satan overshadow the Bible in any way. The Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ we are given so that we can be saved.

Now, understanding all that "salvation" comprises and represents... the Bible is given for us to reveal Jesus Christ and salvation in Him and Him alone... and I'm wanting to see the whole of salvation.

That's why I compare/contrast with Satan and spiritual law. Opposition to truth is a negative mirror image of the light as darkness opposes and negatively mirrors light. I find the study of Satan and darkness helpful only as I seek to separate dark from light to gain full revelation of Jesus Christ and salvation in Him alone.

I'll agree to pass on that and focus on soul sleep... though I will be looking at the whole "big picture" to "test" soul sleep in the larger framework of my understanding.

I'm prayerfully believing my understanding will sharpen, heighten, and expand... even if I don't fully agree with you on all points in the final summation.

I still very much appreciate your insights and sharing of your view and paradigm as a reference/study point. And if my paradigm holds to scripture and shifts... terrific!!! That's called... revelation.

:)

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 05:36 PM
Greetings Laura,

Let me first say that I do not believe in soul sleep. Before going to deeply into this discussion let me ask you...what is the difference between the one who physically dies in unbelief and the one who physically dies in Christ?

Blessings,
RW

Hi RW,

These are things I've never "conceptualized" on the basis of scripture. I'm going to be pondering the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam. A person who dies in an unregenerate state was born of the flesh... never of the Spirit of God on earth (obviously). They have completely different spirits. Therefore, for me to "lump them together" in my understanding seems to be wholly inaccurate.

Now, the complete and total spiritual division between them may result in the same conclusion of going where their spirits "belong" in a conscious state: Hades or Heaven as I see it... or, there could be something different to the unregenerate. Like, for example, since they are basically of the earth... when their bodies "die"... in the first Adam... are they conscious? I assume "yes"... but that's "assuming". Some scriptures do state "sleep". Now, is that referring to the body "only" sleeping? (Not yet bodily resurrected?) Could be.

Though both those in belief in Christ die physically... only the unregenerate person is "of the flesh". The believer in Christ is born of the Spirit. I can see the potential of different "states of being" between the 2 because they are completely different "creations". (one of flesh in Adam (unbelief); one of spirit in Christ (believers) ). I must completely separate light and dark in my understanding spiritually in revelation of God's Word to attain my personal spiritual goal.

What happens when light and darkness "split" in our understanding? The greatest move of the Spirit of the age in revelation, illumination, vivification, and sanctification in truth. If people thought "splitting the atom" released power... wait til they see "splitting the Adam" spiritually... (first and second Adams).

;)

Love in Christ,

js
(seeking to become "Einstein" of full apostolic power... ;) )

RogerW
Sep 15th 2007, 05:50 PM
Hi RW,

These are things I've never "conceptualized" on the basis of scripture. I'm going to be pondering the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam. A person who dies in an unregenerate state was born of the flesh... never of the Spirit of God on earth (obviously). They have completely different spirits. Therefore, for me to "lump them together" in my understanding seems to be wholly inaccurate.

Now, the complete and total spiritual division between them may result in the same conclusion of going where their spirits "belong" in a conscious state: Hades or Heaven as I see it... or, there could be something different to the unregenerate. Like, for example, since they are basically of the earth... when their bodies "die"... in the first Adam... are they conscious? I assume "yes"... but that's "assuming". Some scriptures do state "sleep". Now, is that referring to the body "only" sleeping? (Not yet bodily resurrected?) Could be.

Though both those in belief in Christ die physically... only the unregenerate person is "of the flesh". The believer in Christ is born of the Spirit. I can see the potential of different "states of being" between the 2 because they are completely different "creations". (one of flesh in Adam (unbelief); one of spirit in Christ (believers) ). I must completely separate light and dark in my understanding spiritually in revelation of God's Word to attain my personal spiritual goal.

What happens when light and darkness "split" in our understanding? The greatest move of the Spirit of the age in revelation, illumination, vivification, and sanctification in truth. If people thought "splitting the atom" released power... wait til they see "splitting the Adam" spiritually... (first and second Adams).

;)

Love in Christ,

js
(seeking to become "Einstein" of full apostolic power... ;) )

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ec 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

According to the above passages man dies and his flesh returns to dust, but what does Solomon mean when he asks, "who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth"? When Solomon says the same fate that befalls beasts befalls the 'sons of men', is he speaking of all mankind including those who are called 'sons of God', or is there a difference between sons of men and sons of God?

Blessings,
RW

Steven3
Sep 15th 2007, 08:23 PM
Hi Roger :)
According to the above passages man dies and his flesh returns to dust, but what does Solomon mean when he asks, "who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth"? Okay, can I make a couple of points :)

1. "breath" and "spirit" are the same word, ruakh. This only means "wind", or breath as in "the spirit in God's nostrils". The ruakh cannot carry the personality, and the ruakh is not a conscious independent entity. Neither the ruakh entering the womb (Ecc 11:5, Ps104:29), nor the ruakh out of man on death (Ecc 8:8, 12:7, Ps104:30)

2. In 3:21 the ESV and most modern versions say "who knows whether..." not "who knoweth that..." KJV, but either way the point is no one knows. If no one knows then it isn't exactly great proof of immortal man-ruakh or non-immortal animal ruakh.

3. Even if some people say the ruakh of man does go up and the animal down, Ecc9:5-10 contradicts that. A living dog (ie poor man) is better off than a dead lion (ie rich man). According to Ecclesiastes the "dead lion" is not in heaven.

4. Ecclesiastes doesn't mention "sons of God" in the book. The phrase "sons of men" (children of men) just means human beings, homo-sapiens. There's no contrast with another category of men called "sons of God". In any case Ecc 9:5,10 "the dead know nothing" doesn't distinguish two groups. If it did that would mean Christ had already judged the people of Ecclesiastes time and rewarded them with heaven before having died for their sins on the cross.


Therefore:

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same ruakh, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the ruakh of man goes upward and the ruakh of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

Ecc11:5 As you do not know the way the ruakh comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

Ecc 8:8 No man has power to retain the ruakh, or power over the day of death. There is no discharge from war, nor will wickedness deliver those who are given to it.

What this means is when the ruakh goes back to God in Ecc12:7, the man cannot hang on to the ruakh's coat tails, so to speak.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the ruakh returns to God who gave it.

As Abraham said "I am but dust and ashes". Abraham did not catch on to the ruakh, he went back to dust. The ruakh also is not idle. God recycles it:

Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their ruakh, they die
and return to their dust.
30 When you send forth your ruakh, they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

I know this will come as a surpise to some people, but it shouldn't as the OT doesn't make a secret of this. God promised sleep to Moses, why should we demand something more? It's not as if sleep is so terrible. I intend to go and "know nothing" for 7 hours right now ;)
God bless and good night.
Steven

enarchay
Sep 15th 2007, 09:50 PM
For example A.T. Wright, Bishop of Durham, is no sceptic, he bases his arguments on the Bible text : Bishop abolishes heaven and the Soul (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164942.ece?token=null&offset=0) (London Times article). In his book For All the Saints (http://www.amazon.com/All-Saints-Remembering-Christian-Departed/dp/0819221333), Tom Wright demonstrates that traditional Christianity has misread New Testament teaching about death. The book shows that man is not born with an "immortal soul" and that the hope is resurrection when Christ comes from heaven, quote: ‘Immortality is a gift of God in Christ, not an innate human capacity.’


I'd like to add, despite how great of a scholar he is, N.T. Wright still believes in an intermediate state for believers. He doesn't believe we should argue that the "spirit" or "soul" goes there and especially discourages the view that the soul is "immortal" (he basically says such arguments are the result of Plato sneaking his way into Christianity), but that God's love is so strong that death has no hold over the believer. He has described this intermediate state as "restful peace." But he's stressed time and time again the New Testament authors were far more concerned with bodies and our ultimate hope is not floating around up in the clouds somewhere but bodily resurrection to Earth.

And I agree (as an American), Americans have adopted a sort of escapist theology, largely the result of the popularity of the Left Behind series (which N.T. Wright criticizes as well), where the world sucks and man's immortal soul will flutter off to a "better place."

enarchay
Sep 15th 2007, 09:58 PM
what is the difference between the one who physically dies in unbelief and the one who physically dies in Christ?


No difference. They both have the same fate.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity" (Ecc 3:19).

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Ecc 9:10).

"All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Ecc 3:20).

Even if Christians go to some sort of intermediate state after death, this does not change the fact that the rest still go to sheol, which is not a place of torment (or even consciousness).

enarchay
Sep 15th 2007, 10:07 PM
2. In 3:21 the ESV and most modern versions say "who knows whether..." not "who knoweth that..." KJV, but either way the point is no one knows. If no one knows then it isn't exactly great proof of immortal man-ruakh or non-immortal animal ruakh.


It's a rhetorical question. Solomon expects the reader to answer the question for himself based on what he said before about a beast and a man having the same breath, fate, and going unto the same place at death.


I know this will come as a surpise to some people, but it shouldn't as the OT doesn't make a secret of this. God promised sleep to Moses, why should we demand something more? It's not as if sleep is so terrible. I intend to go and "know nothing" for 7 hours right now ;)
God bless and good night.
Steven

I think what it comes down to is: if the ruach is conscious and contains the thoughts and identity of man, then we preexist our births. The ruach, while it may be used figuratively, is just the spark of life that animates the dust that is our bodies. In Genesis, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, which obviously was not consciously dancing around in Heaven before being placed in the dust; so why argue it will consciously dance around in Heaven after leaving the dust?

enarchay
Sep 15th 2007, 11:06 PM
I would like to add, by the way, that “soul sleep” really is a poor title for what Steven and I advocate.

When man dies, his breath returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7), “meaning not that an immortal part of the person goes to live with God, but that God who breathed life’s breath into human nostrils in the first place will simply withdraw it into his own possession” (Wright 88—9), his body returns to the dust (Gen 3:19; Ecc 3:20, 12:7; Psa 146:4), and since the two components that make up the human, the living soul, have been disconnected (i.e. Gen 2:7), the soul dies (e.g. Eze 18:4, 20). Since a living creature (man and beast alike) is called a nephesh (and sometimes in Greek, psyche) he can be said to sleep in the dust with his dead, unanimated body (Dan 12:2), but really “sleep” is just a sugar-coated idiom for death itself (cf. Joh 11:11, Joh 11:14). The state of being in the dust (sleeping in the dust as Daniel says), or the grave, I would argue should be called sheol (and in Greek hades); this is why when Jesus died, he was thought of as being in hades (i.e. Act 2:31). However, from a Jewish perspective, not much at all is thought of as happening beyond the dust or grave, so why should we think differently?

Since “sleep” is merely an idiom, I think the best way to describe this doctrine is plain old “death.” Obviously, if man dies, he is not living (in Heaven or Hell or whatever you want to call it), but rotting in his grave. The reason “sleep” is such a fitting metaphor for “death” is because death is not permanent, for “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

If you are convinced you will enter some sort of conscious intermediate state after death, please do not try to theorize that it is your “soul” or your “spirit” that is what remains conscious after death, because this really is not Scriptural; and also realize that if an intermediate state does exist, it is in no way our ultimate hope or eternal destiny. Lastly, if a conscious intermediate state for the believer exists (I'm reluctant to call it “heaven”), I see no reason whatsoever why the unbeliever would enter any other state than sheol, which is clearly a place of unconsciousness; in other words, there is no “hell” as conceived of in the middle ages and understood today.

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 03:50 AM
According to the above passages man dies and his flesh returns to dust, but what does Solomon mean when he asks, "who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth"? When Solomon says the same fate that befalls beasts befalls the 'sons of men', is he speaking of all mankind including those who are called 'sons of God', or is there a difference between sons of men and sons of God?


Hi RW :)

I am not going to say I hold a position... because I am studying at this time.

Here's a spiritual thought: what is the anti-christ called? Ans. "a beast". I believe the number of a man is 666... unregenerate that is... and he is a "beast". And there is a total and complete difference between the regenerate spirits of children of God and the unregenerate spirits of or children of the flesh. The unregenerate are beastly, at one level.... like brute beasts even Jude says....

2 Peter 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

I need revelation of God's Word. I see "signs" of something. Personally, I need to do a systematic study to understand what God is saying in the Bible on this subject. I have not studied it out in part, let alone systematically.

The difference between the regenerate spirits of children of God and the brutish beast spirits of the unregenerate is so stark, so great... that I need to "break it down" and systematically study the scripture. They are of the earth, as brute beast, and animist in spiritual nature... at a certain level... nothing like born-again Christians in spirit and in truth. They may go into "soul sleep"... like brute beasts... when their bodies perish.

But that doesn't carry over, imo at this point, to children of God in Christ. Our spirits are alive... in the image of God in Christ... nothing of the earth of our spirits... nothing animist about our spirits in Christ. Our natures, unlike the unregenerate spirits of unbelievers, are a divine nature of God in Christ as children of God.

I don't know, Roger... but I'd like to study to build a framework of comprehension systematically based on scripture... calling on the Lord for revelation of His Word. Per James, as I ask without wavering believing He will give me revelation... wisdom... He will... as I go to the Word and study. That's my faith... and I personally believe I'm going to gain revelation - whether I agree with Steve, enarchay, or others as the result. I don't have biblical revelation on these points at this time.

These gentlemen point out to me by example... that they have studied these matters... I have not.

:)

God bless,

js

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 04:57 AM
Hi Laura :)
It's not technically "soul sleep" because in Hebrew the "soul dies",

Numbers 6:6 “All the days that he separates himself to the Lord he shall not go near a dead person [Hebrew "dead soul"].

Ezekiel 13:19 You have profaned me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, putting to death souls who should not die and keeping alive souls who should not live, by your lying to my people, who listen to lies.
Hi Steve :)

I am definitely not debating a position... but rather questioning to understand yours... and to decipher to find mine. :)

Adam was created a "living soul". Adam became a dead soul through sin. He became "flesh"... having a sinful nature. I believe my revelation as a "baseline" is "sound": the souls of the sinful nature are body/soul combination... in death. The "substance" of the soul of the sinful man is spiritual: the sinful nature.

My paradigm states unilaterally that the divine nature and the sinful nature are completely separate and distinct. I am not talking about a regenerate spirit... but rather a sinner in a fallen state. I want to understand your terminology from your paradigm... and am really trying to listen and understand. You're saying it's "soul death". OK, it makes a certain amount of sense to me that the death of the body of an unregenerate person = "death" of the soul brought to a certain "fruition".

I'm not trying to "make points of my own"... but I'm just trying to "see" on this: Adam "died" the moment he sinned. His soul that was living... died. He lost a divine nature as his state of being; he became a sinner... and a sinful nature became his core being/state of being. Adam was a son of God prior to sin; Adam became a son of Satan spiritually through sin. We've got a "dead soul" in a body that is dying... but not yet dead. We're trying to examine scripturally what happens to a "dead soul" in a body that functionally dies.

The death of the body comes to "fruition" or completion at physical death, obviously. What you are submitting is that the death of the "dead soul" comes to "fruition" or "completion" at the point of the body's physical death.



I'd prefer "soul interruption" which fits Matt10:28, but okay, I guess "soul sleep" is near enough :)
If you prefer "soul interruption"... and I'm seeking to comprehend your paradigm... I need to absorb your thoughts from your point of view and analyze them as best I'm able (I'm a human... I'm not God... but I'll call on God and seek Him prayerfully on this).

Let me go along then with "soul interruption" from your paradigm for sake of study/discussion.


Genesis 37:35 All his sons and daughters came to Jacob to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I go down to Sheol [Hades] to my son [Joseph]." So his father wept for him.
Is "sheol" Hades, then? Always? Are you seeing this as a location of the physical body, the soul, or both? Is "sheol" Hades, then... the grave from your paradigm?


Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
The OT is hard, imo. We're dealing with persons in a "timeline" physically before the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I have to try to "catch myself" from making logically fallacious conclusions that fail to factor in matters relating to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and those justified in Him. High degree of complexity, imo.


Job 7:21 Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more."
I don't know if Job was referring to his body only... or a combination of his body/soul...??? (And no spirits, in my opinion, were regenerate... truly "born-again"... though I do believe OT believers were justified by faith... which is another matter where I don't trust completely my level understanding. I'm in no position, imo, to form a clear position until I gain greater revelation on a few points.)


Job 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
? - To me, ambiguous... and may be due only to my own lack of revelation on this topic subject matter. I know the greater revelation a person has in a given area... the more line upon line and precept upon precept.. scripture is no longer ambiguous in matters related to that area. I certainly can't tell, however, if Job is speaking of the body alone... or body/soul.


Jeremiah 51:39 But while they are aroused,
I will set out a feast for them
and make them drunk,
so that they shout with laughter—
then sleep forever and not awake,"
declares the LORD.
Everyone will be resurrected, thus awakened from death: this is true of both the regenerate and the unregenerate (believers and unbelievers). I don't understand this scripture, really and how it can be applied.


1 Corinthians 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
"Fallen asleep" equals dead. Yet, this can be referring only to a body "sleeping"... and is too ambiguous for me to know myself that it means that a person is in a state of "sleep" or "soul interruption" during death. (Could you please explain why specifically you prefer the term "soul interruption". I think I know... but, then again, I'd be assuming without letting you define your terms. Thanks!)


1 Corinthians 15:17-18 If no resurrection of the dead.... Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
Yet we are already resurrected spiritually in Christ. We have attained unto spiritual resurrection. We can never die. Even if our bodies die, we as believers are and remain alive. If the resurrection of Christ had not occurred... we would have experienced no viable spiritual resurrection in rebirth. For beleivers to die, were that the case (thank God it isn't!), would indeed mean to perish just as unbelievers do.

To me, this scripture highlights, really, a difference between believers and unbelievers... I'll need to further contemplate, and I need more scripture upon scripture myself, to arrive at a position.


1 Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
But who is with Christ at His coming??? I thought the scripture stated that all who had died in Christ came with Christ at His coming?? In my mind, I saw/see them spiritually coming with Christ... and their bodies meeting them in the air. Reuniting spirit/soul/body... in resurrection bodily. I didn't see them "waking up" from the tomb... as though they had not been conscious.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (New International Version)

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

See, I believed that the saints came with Jesus riding on white horses with Him at this time, the people of Rev. 19:14... those including the saints of God in Christ who had died previous to this time and are with the Lord in the air upon His return:

Rev. 19:11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&version=31#fen-NIV-31017a)] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Amen.

For a person who believes that believers are conscious and alert... present with the Lord upon death... the "sleeping" is the "sleeping" of the body. The spirit is alive. The only "soul part" of a Christian, from this view I've held... and am wanting to hear yours, is really the "sinful nature"... which dies with the body from earth. You know, it's through the body that we are still "plagued" with the sinful nature still active in our bodies (warring in our members) on earth.

Our "sinful natures"... I would agree... experience "total death" with the death of our physical bodies as Christians. We appear before God in a perfected state... the body having died... the sinful nature in the body perishing with the body...and our spirits leaving the body and going "upward" to be present with the Lord.

The only "soul interruption" a Christian, therefore, experiences... is the "sinful nature" dying with the body... separating from our spirits when we separate from our bodies... as we enter Heaven upon death in a perfected state. (Not glorified yet because we don't have our bodies yet glorified, from my understanding thus far... )

Again, not debating... just discussing what I've always believed... and checking with you on your paradigm. Thanks so much! :)

God bless,

js

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 05:11 AM
Hi enarchay :),

Just wanted to say hi and thanks for your comments. It's a lot of meaty stuff to contemplate scripturally.

I have to catch up with you! And read and work through your comments as well as additional comments by Steve.

I can't believe I'm going to say this! (I never said it in school. lol): I appreciate the homework.

;)

Thanks so much!

Love in Christ,

js

Steven3
Sep 16th 2007, 09:01 AM
Hiya Laura
Good morning :)
Hi Steve :)

I am definitely not debating a position... but rather questioning to understand yours... and to decipher to find mine. :)That's fine, I see that and it's delightful :)
Adam was created a "living soul". Adam became a dead soul through sin.More or less, though it may be reading back too much from the NT to see that in the OT. Paul can say "dead in your sins", but it's the whole person, not "the soul" particularly, and the only "dead souls" verses in the Bible still refer to tangible (touchable) corpses in Numbers 6:6 or Joshua.
My paradigm states unilaterally that the divine nature and the sinful nature are completely separate and distinct. I am not talking about a regenerate spirit... but rather a sinner in a fallen state. I want to understand your terminology from your paradigm... and am really trying to listen and understand. You're saying it's "soul death". OK, it makes a certain amount of sense to me that the death of the body of an unregenerate person = "death" of the soul brought to a certain "fruition". Again, it's okay as a figurative reading of the flesh vs. spirit battle in Romans 7&8, post baptism, but the literal body, made of literal dust and literal breath, resulting in a literal living soul, a literal soul that could be killed with a sword, that is still unavoidably concrete. The reason the Bible only uses "divine nature" of God, never of man, is because only God has "divine nature". We have to stick to the Bible words/verses on this very basic area because if we don't have the literal, Genesis, OT, in place when we get to, say, Romans and Paul is making complicated allegories and figures we risk misinterpreting what Paul is saying in life-affecting teaching.


Let me go along then with "soul interruption" from your paradigm for sake of study/discussion.I'm probably being pedantic, basically "soul sleep" is what we're talking about - but as I said Matt10:28 requires interruption not sleeping, and in the OT souls just "die".


Is "sheol" Hades, then? Always? [quote]In the Bible of the early church (Septuagint) Hades is the translation for Sheol, they are the same thing. There are a couple of NT verses where the reference is to Hellenistic influences, notably Luke 16, but generally NT Hades = OT Sheol. [quote]Are you seeing this as a location of the physical body, the soul, or both? Is "sheol" Hades, then... the grave from your paradigm?We can say both I suppose, click soul (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=07585):


The important points as (a) all go there, good and bad, (b) they aren't conscious.


I don't know if Job was referring to his body only... or a combination of his body/soul...??? But in the Bible the soul, nefesh, assumes a body, a disembodied nefesh is impossible.

Gen 2:7 dust + breath = soul (nefesh)
Gen 3:19 soul - breath = dust

Job 33:18 he keeps back his soul (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=07585) from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword.


"Fallen asleep" equals dead. Yet, this can be referring only to a body "sleeping"... and is too ambiguous for me to know myself that it means that a person is in a state of "sleep" or "soul interruption" during death.




(Could you please explain why specifically you prefer the term "soul interruption". I think I know... but, then again, I'd be assuming without letting you define your terms. Thanks!)Again, mainly because of a few verses like these two:

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Most people misread that as hell = inferno, the traditional Latin concept, but the Greek is Gehenna, from Hebrew Ge (= valley of) Hinnom, a future event, cf Is66:24 Mark9:47. When we know what Gehenna is it becomes clear that the verse is saying the same as below:

Job 33:30 to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.


Yet we are already resurrected spiritually in Christ. We have attained unto spiritual resurrection. You're right, the key word is spiritually, = figuratively in modern language, Col3:1 says "you are resurrected in Christ". But being spiritually figuratively "resurrected in Christ" is no use whatsoever without a physical concrete literal "resurrection". The OT generally uses "death" "life" very physically, the NT uses "death" "life" in two ways - both literal and figurative. Even in the same verse

"let the (figurative, spiritual) dead bury their (literal, concrete) dead."

To sift literal and figurative in the NT is next to impossible if someone doesn't share Paul and the other apostles' grounding in OT teaching. Given that we all as Gentiles are still foreign to the OT to some extent (you'd think after 2000 years of Christendom we wouldn't be, but we are) it's an effort to get the OT basics straight before running off with Paul.


We can never die. Even if our bodies die, we as believers are and remain alive.Not true.


But who is with Christ at His coming??? I thought the scripture stated that all who had died in Christ came with Christ at His coming?? In my mind, I saw/see them spiritually coming with Christ... and their bodies meeting them in the air. Reuniting spirit/soul/body... in resurrection bodily. I didn't see them "waking up" from the tomb... as though they had not been conscious.Um, are you sure? :)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself A. will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and B. the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 2. After that, C. we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


If B happens before C, then yes he brings them with him - but B doesn't happen before A.


See, I believed that the saints came with Jesus riding on white horses with Him at this time, the people of Rev. 19:14I don't think our Lord will literally A. bring a herd of horses down from heaven, B. raises the dead and then say "saddle up, C. time to meet the living" :) It's a vision, and it doesn't contradict the A.B.C. order in 1Thess4. Perhaps it would be best to put Revelation on one side for a time... these visions could mean anything, so it's best to go get our basic beliefs on life and death from the other 65 books.

Off to church! Have a nice evening ;)
God bless
Steven

enarchay
Sep 16th 2007, 10:09 AM
But in the Bible the soul, nefesh, assumes a body, a disembodied nefesh is impossible.

Gen 2:7 dust + breath = soul (nefesh)
Gen 3:19 soul - breath = dustI do not entirely agree with your strict definition of nephesh. I do agree the soul does not consciously survive death, however. What I would like to point out, though, is that nephesh in the Tanakh also seems to evolve into a concept of a force that maintains the life of a human it is connected with. Nephesh sometimes takes on the meaning "life." However, life is the result of body being connected with spirit, so the Genesis definition is still fitting.

Here's an example:
"For the life [nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls [nephesh], for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life" (Lev 17:11).
The Greek reads:
"E gar [For the] psyche [life] pases [of all] sarkos [flesh] aima autou ts blood[/B]] esti [is] kai [and] egw [I] edoka [gave] auto [it] umin [to you] epi [upon] tou [the] thusiasteriou [altar] exilaskesthai [to atone] peri [for] ton psychon umon to [your souls] (Based on [I]The Apostolic Bible Polyglot, LXX).
Notice how nephesh (and psyche) nearly takes on two separate meanings in a single verse.

Oddly enough, the nephesh is even identified as being the blood!
"But you shall not eat flesh with its life [nephesh], that is, its blood" (Gen 9:4).

"Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life [nephesh], and you shall not eat the life [nephesh] with the flesh" (Deu 12:23).
So I think nephesh not only is used to describe a creature, but also the vitality of that creature. From this we get:
"And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin" (Gen 35:18).
The different uses of nephesh are tricky to reconcile, but I think the idea is that the Hebrews conceived it as describing both man as a living creature and the life of man maintaining him as a living creature (sort of like the ruach, but more in connection with the body, i.e. blood). In the same way we use "life" to describe a multitude of living beings (e.g. "The comet threatens to destroy all life") and also that which makes one a living being (e.g. "His life nearly departed"), so also did the Hebrews use nephesh to describe a living creature, and the force that maintains the living creature.

I think the fact the nephesh was identified with the blood is more evidence that the nephesh was conceived of less as a spiritual entity and more of as something dependent upon, and sometimes synonymous with, the living body. With this mode of thinking, the Jewish Encyclopedia comments that the breath of life of Genesis "was conceived of as inseparably connected, if not wholly identified, with the life-blood (ib. ix. 4; Lev. xvii. 11)."


You're right, the key word is spiritually, = figuratively in modern language, Col3:1 says "you are resurrected in Christ". But being spiritually figuratively "resurrected in Christ" is no use whatsoever without a physical concrete literal "resurrection". The OT generally uses "death" "life" very physically, the NT uses "death" "life" in two ways - both literal and figurative. Even in the same verseGood points. Very good point, especially, about Jesus' double use of "death." Words like "spiritual" and "literal" can be quite vague. The way I see Christians using "spiritual" many times takes on the meaning "figurative."

I don't think figurative talk should dismiss literal talk.

In the same way resurrection in Jeremiah as a metaphor for the renewal of Israel is evidence for a belief in a quite literal physical resurrection, so also is figurative talk about resurrection in the here and now in Christ through baptism of the Holy Spirit evidence for the belief in a future physical resurrection. The fact we rise to life (figuratively speaking) in Jesus in the here and now is not evidence that we will not raise (literally speaking) bodily in the future.

Steven3
Sep 16th 2007, 12:26 PM
Hi Enarchay :)
I do not entirely agree with your strict definition of nephesh. Neither do I ;) I was just trying to keep it simple. Generally speaking the OT uses "ruakh" & "nephesh" literally, generally speaking the NT uses "pneuma" & "psyche" figuratively. But the OT itself contains a wealth of figurative uses, particularly in the wisdom books and prophets.

Here is a NT example of Greek pneuma being used in the OT Hebrew ruakh sense, literally, physically, concretely for "breath".

Luke 8:52 And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, “Child, arise.” 55 And her spirit (pneuma) returned, and she got up at once. And he directed that something should be given her to eat.

(I've repeatedly heard this misread as "she was called back down from heaven"!) But generally speaking the OT is more literal, the NT more figurative.
God bless
S

Steven3
Sep 16th 2007, 01:48 PM
Just to stay on track, some key verses ;)

DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL
Gen 2:7 the dust of the ground, became a living being
Gen 3:19 dust you are, and unto dust you will return
Gen 3:3 God: “you will die”
Gen 3:4 Serpent: “you surely will not die”
Rom 6:23 the wages of sin is death

LIVING SOUL – BREATH = DUST
Gen 7:22 the breath [spirit] of life in nostrils of animals
Job 27:3 the breath [spirit] of God in my nostrils
Job 33:4 the breath [spirit] of the Almighty gives me life
Job 34:14 withdrew his spirit… all would return to dust
Ps 104:29-30 take away their breath they return to dust
Ps 49:14,17,20 man is like the beasts that perish
Ps 146:2-4 spirit departs… man returns to the ground
Ecc 3:19-20 man has no advantage over the animal
Ecc 8:8 no man has power over the wind [breath] in the day of death
Ecc 12:7 man returns to dust, spirit [breath] returns to God who gave it

Then we need to see what the Bible teaches about HEAVEN, HELL (Sheol, not Hinnom)

[B]HEAVEN
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven
Ps 115:16 The heavens the Lord's, the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
Heb 11:13 Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob all died… did not receive what was promised
Heb 11:39-40 none of them received what was promised… not without us
Gen 37:35 Jacob went down to Sheol
Acts 2:34 David did not ascend to heaven
Acts 2:27 You will not abandon me to [Sheol]
Acts 2:31 Christ was not abandoned to [Sheol]

IN SHEOL/HADES THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING
De.31:16 Moses to rest with your fathers
- too many "sleep" "rest" "awake" verses to list
Ecc 9:5 the dead know nothing
Ecc 9:10 in the grave [Sheol] … nor knowledge
Ps 6:4-5 no one remembers you when he is dead
Ps 30:9 will the dust praise you?
Ps 88:5,10-11 remember you no more… praise you?
Isaiah 38:18 grave [Sheol] cannot praise you

Which leaves resurrection of the body (Apostles Creed, 1 Clement)

RESURRECTION, NOT HEAVEN GOING
1Sam 2:6 he brings down to [Sheol] and raises up
Job 14:12-15 hide me in [Sheol]… wait for renewal
Job 19:25-26 redeemer… in [Hebrew] my flesh I will see God
Job 33:25-26 his flesh is renewed as a childs…
Isaiah 26:14 dead… departed… do not rise…
Isaiah 26:19 but your dead will live… earth give birth
Daniel 12:2 some to everlasting life… contempt
Matt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh… Queen of the South
Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection
Acts 23:6 hope in the resurrection of the dead
Acts 24:15 hope… resurrection of both…
Acts 26:6-8 my hope… God raises the dead.
John 5:28-29 rise to live… rise to be condemned
1Co 15:16 if the dead are not raised, then Christ…
1Co 15:23 But each in his own turn; Christ…

Then after resurrection, Judgment

SHEEP -> PARADISE / KINGDOM
Matt 8:11 East and West and sit down with Abraham Isaac & Jacob
Matt 25:34 kingdom prepared… since the foundation
Matt 26:29 until that day… in my Father’s kingdom

Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just
Luke 23:42-43 thief requests remembrance when Christ comes in his kingdom.
Rev2:7 = Gen 2:8 garden
Dan 7:18 receive the kingdom… possess it forever
Rev 5:10 kingdom and priests… reign on earth
Is 65:20-22 he who dies at a hundred… a mere youth
1Co 15:20-23 Each in his own order

GOATS -> GEHENNA
Mark 9:48 [Gehenna]... “their worm does not die”
Isaiah 66:24 dead bodies… their worm will not die
2Thess 1:7-9 blazing fire… everlasting destruction
Luke13:28 weeping… when you see Abraham…

REWARD COMES FROM HEAVEN, NOT US TO HEAVEN
Matt 5:12 great is your reward in heaven
Rev 22:12 I am coming soon… my reward is with me
John 14:2 in my Father’s house there are many rooms
John 14:3 I will come back… where I am
John 14:23 will come to him and make our home [room]
2Co 5:1 an eternal house in heaven
2Co 5:2 heavenly dwelling [dwelling from heaven]
2Co 5:3 not be found naked
2Co 5:4 do not want to be unclothed
2Co 5:10 the judgement seat of Christ
Php 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven
Php 3:20 we eagerly await a saviour from there
Php 3:11 attain to the resurrection from the dead
Php 2:16 boast on the day of Christ

That's a small sample :)
God bless
S

RogerW
Sep 16th 2007, 03:46 PM
Hi Roger :)Okay, can I make a couple of points :)

1. "breath" and "spirit" are the same word, ruakh. This only means "wind", or breath as in "the spirit in God's nostrils". The ruakh cannot carry the personality, and the ruakh is not a conscious independent entity. Neither the ruakh entering the womb (Ecc 11:5, Ps104:29), nor the ruakh out of man on death (Ecc 8:8, 12:7, Ps104:30)

2. In 3:21 the ESV and most modern versions say "who knows whether..." not "who knoweth that..." KJV, but either way the point is no one knows. If no one knows then it isn't exactly great proof of immortal man-ruakh or non-immortal animal ruakh.

3. Even if some people say the ruakh of man does go up and the animal down, Ecc9:5-10 contradicts that. A living dog (ie poor man) is better off than a dead lion (ie rich man). According to Ecclesiastes the "dead lion" is not in heaven.

4. Ecclesiastes doesn't mention "sons of God" in the book. The phrase "sons of men" (children of men) just means human beings, homo-sapiens. There's no contrast with another category of men called "sons of God". In any case Ecc 9:5,10 "the dead know nothing" doesn't distinguish two groups. If it did that would mean Christ had already judged the people of Ecclesiastes time and rewarded them with heaven before having died for their sins on the cross.


Therefore:

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same ruakh, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the ruakh of man goes upward and the ruakh of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

Ecc11:5 As you do not know the way the ruakh comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

Ecc 8:8 No man has power to retain the ruakh, or power over the day of death. There is no discharge from war, nor will wickedness deliver those who are given to it.

What this means is when the ruakh goes back to God in Ecc12:7, the man cannot hang on to the ruakh's coat tails, so to speak.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the ruakh returns to God who gave it.

As Abraham said "I am but dust and ashes". Abraham did not catch on to the ruakh, he went back to dust. The ruakh also is not idle. God recycles it:

Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their ruakh, they die
and return to their dust.
30 When you send forth your ruakh, they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

I know this will come as a surpise to some people, but it shouldn't as the OT doesn't make a secret of this. God promised sleep to Moses, why should we demand something more? It's not as if sleep is so terrible. I intend to go and "know nothing" for 7 hours right now ;)
God bless and good night.
Steven

Greetings Steven,

What both you and enarchay fail to consider is what happened after the cross. There is no doubt that not one OT saint upon physical death went immediately to heaven. Prior to the cross that was not possible, no one would be resurrected to heaven before Christ went there to prepare a place for His own. Every saint in the OT died, that is those whose breath, or spirit ceased went into the grave, the pit, tomb, sheol, hell (call it what you like), and their physical bodies returned to the dust of the earth. The same is true of the physical bodies of everything that dies period.

These OT saints died in faith without receiving the promise. What promise? The promise they looked for was a home eternal in the heavens, they looked for a city with foundations whose builder and maker was God (He 11:10). David also, upon death went into hell (the grave), and spoke of sitting at the right hand of God even though he had not ascended into the heavens (Acts 2:34).

Even though none of those saints dying before the cross could go into heaven, every one of them were marked as those who cry out to God (Eze 9:4). What happened at Pentecost that changed forever the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and enabled believers to ascend into heaven at the moment of physical death? Of course it was the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. In Rev 7 we read of 144,000 who died prior to the cross who are sealed before the gospel is sent unto all the world. This sealing signifies receiving spiritual life, just as every believer since Pentecost now receives the gift of the indwelling Spirit. This indwelling of the Spirit, giving spiritual life to the man of faith was not seen in the OT. Although the Spirit dwelt with them or among them, He was not present in them until He was sent on the day of Pentecost (Jo 14:17). After Pentecost, after the HS was poured out, and those 144,000 saints dying prior to the cross received the sealing of the Spirit, we read of them again in Rev 14 standing before the throne of God in heaven. First John sees these OT saints in heaven and then John sees an angel flying though the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach to all kindreds, nations, peoples and tongues (Rev 14:6).

No one ascends into heaven bodily, this will not happen until we are all bodily resurrected in the fullness of time, however, every believer who dies since the cross go spiritually into heaven, while everyone who dies in unbelief goes into the grave (hell) to await the fullness of time and Judgment Day. No one is presently suffering eternally, because this will not happen until they are cast into the lake of fire. But this is why there is confusion about hell, because for the one dying in unbelief going into the grave (hell) is the same as going into eternal damnation, there is no more hope for that soul. But all who have died in Christ, in faith are presently residing in their spirit essence in the heavens with the Lord ever since He went there to prepare a place for His own. If this were not true it makes absolutely no sense for Christ to say, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 04:28 PM
My eyes are crossing (figuratively - not literally... lol)

This reminds me of first entering my new field. It's complex. And hugely expansive in seemingly a bjillion directions. It's been said (and we all cracked up) our company, all it does, and all the information pertaining thereto is like living the movie "Matrix" to try to comprehend... and find one's way through. Well, that's, perhaps, my favorite movie. :) This is feeling a little like my job (at first - and still in some areas)... and, definitely, a "Matrix". lol I am not caught up with you guys yet in your mastery of terms, but I'm studying.

Steve, my general concept (and I can't say I really have a "handle" on your paradigm to know that I'm understanding you correctly)... is that many things on the spiritual dimension... you take as somewhat figurative rather than literal. To me, and so I'll try to understand you though I kinda come from a different "angle", the spiritual dimension is what is literal... and the physical that we experience is merely figurative... at a certain level. Like, the OT priesthood, temple, etc. was a figurative shadow of Who was to come: Jesus Christ... literally. What is seen is temporal but what is unseen is eternal.

We walk by faith not by sight. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen... and this is the realm I'm seeking to "step into" fully in the Spirit. I can feel that I need "greater" internal strength in the Spirit to successfully , internally, fully separate light from dark within me by virtue of the anointing to know truth... in my understanding. (please see scripture below). I have not fully attained my personal goal. I am "missing" keys of revelation.

Light and darkness are "blurred" somehow in my comprehension. I am not sharply distinguishing between the 2 on all points in every state of being of man in my level of revelation..There's a body/soul/spirit complete and total separation,imo, that I need to carry out consistently through and apply in every state of being of man... and I just have not studied these things out.

Ephesians 3:14-19 (New International Version)

A Prayer for the Ephesians

14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%203:14-19;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29251a)] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

So I feel (on these points) kinda like a not so awakened or knowledgeable person... wanting to be Einstein...

:)

(Thanks, young Einsteins on this topic matter!!!)

I can't really see, Steve, everything you are saying in detail. I can't hear you clearly... let alone having capacity yet to analyze what you are saying.

:)

Now, I'm receiving feedback that I can come across as very insensitive to others at times. That's certainly not my intent. I look at things scripturally like logic puzzles. With the Word... gaining the "logic" of the Word... is a spiritual matter. When I gain clarity of comprehension... it produces a literal, tangible, manifest anointing of the Spirit of God. That's what I'm going for. I don't intend not to be personable,... I'm just trying to point/counterpoint in seeking solutions.... trying to see "the answer".

If I treat this subject matter in front of me like purely factual matters... I just want you to know I'm not trying to step on any toes... if that happens... since I guess I do that sometimes. I can't be as personal over this screen as I am in person. There's no way to "connect" interpersonally over the pc. 9/10's of my personality, imo, are "x"ed out by this venue. A person can "create" an entire atmosphere interpersonally by their personal presence... and that's just not fully possible in pcland. :(

........

One thing I don't see you and enarchay bringing out... where I think there is incredible power... is that we as Christians are the body of Christ. He is risen. We are in Him. That's why, to me, it doesn't really matter what happens to this physical body of the dust. Jesus is my body and He is already in Heaven fully victorious.

I'm not like an unbeliever who has only an earthly body. My body is in Heaven. Jesus is my body. I am the body of Christ and Satan hath no power over me for I overcome evil with good. Even if my earthly body dies... I have a body in Heaven: Jesus' body. So, again, not trying to be brutal in making points... but I ask questions or state points where I don't understand or ask to be taken into consideration... or see potential inconsistency.

I can't even see the big picture yet of what you are saying... but to me... how have you incorporated that we, as believers, are the body of Christ into your view? It's a spiritual truth in power of resurrection... bodily resurrection. It applies. I haven't formulated an entire systematic theology... but I believe you have... so please can you share with me your thoughts on the body of Christ relative to the death of Christians bodily who are not flesh... but spirit... and members of the body of Christ?

Thanks!

God bless, :)

Laura

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 05:43 PM
[quote=Steven3;1382316]Hi Laura :)Well again, using Biblical terminology the Bible never says "the body dies", in the Bible the "soul dies". God said to Moses, "you will sleep", so Moses himself would sleep, not "your soul will sleep". Can I suggest clicking on this (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=05315) , this is the Blueletterbible concordance entry for nefesh (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=05315), the Hebrew word for soul. That will show that in the OT a soul is always a living being with a body, dust + breath = soul


my current view:

spirit/soul/body in an unbeliever:

spirit = sinful nature, Satan
body = body of Adam fallen; body of death
soul = sinful nature, Satan coming from internally the body; spirit at core.

In an unbeliever, the Holy Spirit is an "outside invader" effecting the soul. The Holy Spirit does effect and influence the soul of an unbeliever... but not from internal residence in the spirit. Thus, the Holy Spirit is not "indwelling". To "indwell" is to "indwell" the spirit.

The soul of an unbeliever is thus "divided" until such time as an unbeliever blasphemes the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit actively restrains full expression of the spirit of an unbeliever external to the unregenerate spirit of the unbeliever... yet via the soul.

The "soul" is not "who" a person is at core; the "spirit" is.




For example A.T. Wright, Bishop of Durham, is no sceptic, he bases his arguments on the Bible text : Bishop abolishes heaven and the Soul (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164942.ece?token=null&offset=0) (London Times article). In his book For All the Saints (http://www.amazon.com/All-Saints-Remembering-Christian-Departed/dp/0819221333), Tom Wright demonstrates that traditional Christianity has misread New Testament teaching about death. The book shows that man is not born with an "immortal soul" and that the hope is resurrection when Christ comes from heaven, quote: ‘Immortality is a gift of God in Christ, not an innate human capacity.’ What Christians look forward to instead is bodily resurrection within God’s new creation after a period of ‘rest with Christ’. And this isn't a 16th Century invention since the Apostles Creed and 1 Clement also teach resurrection of the body, not the immortal soul.
Focussing on soul, rather than spirit as central, does not produce clarity of revelation, imo. "spirit is the river from which the springs of soul are filled" (my view) If the soul is not completely filled with the springs of the spirit as a river... an external contrary force is "blocking" that spirit from fully filling the soul.

In an unbeliever, that external contrary force "holding back" full manifestation of the evil spirit within a man is the Holy Spirit restraining the following:

1. full blasphemy of the Spirit.... (as soon as the Holy Spirit stops restraining, the "river" of the spirit of the unbeliever does what it fully wills to do: blasphemes the Holy Spirit. It is only divine intervention and external restraint that "holds back sinners" from blasphemy of the Holy Spirit according to their own evil nature, evil spirit of Satan within them at core nature/being.)

2. murderous and all evil intent in action.... (Man is so utterly wicked, the presence of Holy Spirit externally restrains wicked, evil men from acting fully on the wickedness of the evil, sinful natures within them. The Holy Spirit restrains the evil men would do by nature... were it not for the external spiritual restraint of the Holy Spirit. Were it not for God actively externally restraining evil... "all hell would break loose"... literally in the evil and murderous actions of men.)

These are beginning foundational points I hold scripturally. Do you see any points you would not agree with? If you do not agree, what do you see differently? Personally, I believe I have studied out and see these points with absolutely clarity of revelation by the Holy Spirit. Yet the Word can always correct me.

Where I need to "connect" is with what you are saying relative to "body" and spiritual state of being... and the conflict between spiritual powers that result in a "divided soul". (2 opposite spiritual powers battling in the "battleground" of the soul.)

1. Man is either totally evil at a spiritual core level as an unbeliever (though not yet completely evil in soul due to positive outside influence), or,

2. Man is either totally good at a spiritual core level as a believer (though not yet completely good in soul due to negative outside influence.) (I can do a spirit/soul/body of a believer... but not all at once...)

This is my beginning foundational paradigm. No, I do not believe that discussion of soul has any place, personally, in core revelation of spiritual truth. To discuss an "immortal soul"... makes no sense to me. We must discuss spiritual truth. Then go from spiritual to body/soul. The spiritual truth is what is core. Unbelievers and believers must be completely separated between dark and light at core spiritual level... then from there... everything body and soul must align with spiritual truth in life and in death... for full revelation to occur (in my paradigm). This is where I'm coming from....

God bless,

js

RogerW
Sep 16th 2007, 06:28 PM
I'm not like an unbeliever who has only an earthly body. My body is in Heaven. Jesus is my body. I am the body of Christ and Satan hath no power over me for I overcome evil with good. Even if my earthly body dies... I have a body in Heaven: Jesus' body. So, again, not trying to be brutal in making points... but I ask questions or state points where I don't understand or ask to be taken into consideration... or see potential inconsistency.

I can't even see the big picture yet of what you are saying... but to me... how have you incorporated that we, as believers, are the body of Christ into your view? It's a spiritual truth in power of resurrection... bodily resurrection. It applies. I haven't formulated an entire systematic theology... but I believe you have... so please can you share with me your thoughts on the body of Christ relative to the death of Christians bodily who are not flesh... but spirit... and members of the body of Christ?

Thanks!

God bless, :)

Laura

Greetings Laura,

You are correct believers are not like unbelievers. The difference between the soul/spirit essence of believers and unbelievers is that the soul/spirit essence of unbelievers is never made SPIRITUALLY alive. They simply live and die in their soul/spirit; that is mind, will, emotions etc., living and dying under the law, manifesting only the fruit of the flesh, e.g., "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God". But believers are made spiritually alive, and as such receive the fruit of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law". Therefore the law of death no longer has power over believers, born of the Spirit.

It's a very good observation that believers are the body of Christ. You also make a good point for those who have already died in Christ coming with Him when He returns in His glory.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I think we are in much agreement on this topic, and you understand far more than you perhaps think or realize.

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 07:33 PM
[quote=RogerW;1383368]Greetings Laura,

You are correct believers are not like unbelievers. The difference between the soul/spirit essence of believers and unbelievers is that the soul/spirit essence of unbelievers is never made SPIRITUALLY alive. They simply live and die in their soul/spirit; that is mind, will, emotions etc., living and dying under the law, manifesting only the fruit of the flesh, e.g., "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God". But believers are made spiritually alive, and as such receive the fruit of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law". Therefore the law of death no longer has power over believers, born of the Spirit.


I agree... plus I consider that Jesus said "He who believeth in me shall never die." To me, I apply this to mean that the death of my physical body has no power over me in Christ. Though the body dies... I continue to live in Christ.


It's a very good observation that believers are the body of Christ. You also make a good point for those who have already died in Christ coming with Him when He returns in His glory.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I think we are in much agreement on this topic, and you understand far more than you perhaps think or realize.I thought it was in my understanding from somewhere that Jesus brings with Him the saints who have died in Him. Thanks for the scripture. I didn't see the "God will bring with Him"... it was a conclusion I'd drawn that He did... and I didn't have the wherefore's completely clear.

I just have this strong sense that there is something elemental I'm "missing". I just don't have a clear vision where everything is lined up.

I can almost "guess" where I'm not seeing something: related to the body/soul/sinful natures of unbelievers. I'm really not sure.

In my spirit (witness of the Spirit kind of thing), my spirit says that to leave this body is to be present with the Lord... and I really look forward to it. :) I agree with Paul not just in premise... but a real living hope within me that is alive and confident and sure of that fact... in eager anticipation. :) I can't see that changing... or any scripture existing that differs.

I just really sense there's something that I hope to clarify...

Thanks for the scripture and points.

God bless!

js

enarchay
Sep 16th 2007, 08:57 PM
Just to stay on track, some key verses ;)

DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL
Gen 2:7 the dust of the ground, became a living being
Gen 3:19 dust you are, and unto dust you will return
Gen 3:3 God: “you will die”
Gen 3:4 Serpent: “you surely will not die”
Rom 6:23 the wages of sin is death

LIVING SOUL – BREATH = DUST
Gen 7:22 the breath [spirit] of life in nostrils of animals
Job 27:3 the breath [spirit] of God in my nostrils
Job 33:4 the breath [spirit] of the Almighty gives me life
Job 34:14 withdrew his spirit… all would return to dust
Ps 104:29-30 take away their breath they return to dust
Ps 49:14,17,20 man is like the beasts that perish
Ps 146:2-4 spirit departs… man returns to the ground
Ecc 3:19-20 man has no advantage over the animal
Ecc 8:8 no man has power over the wind [breath] in the day of death
Ecc 12:7 man returns to dust, spirit [breath] returns to God who gave it

Then we need to see what the Bible teaches about HEAVEN, HELL (Sheol, not Hinnom)

[B]HEAVEN
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven
Ps 115:16 The heavens the Lord's, the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
Heb 11:13 Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob all died… did not receive what was promised
Heb 11:39-40 none of them received what was promised… not without us
Gen 37:35 Jacob went down to Sheol
Acts 2:34 David did not ascend to heaven
Acts 2:27 You will not abandon me to [Sheol]
Acts 2:31 Christ was not abandoned to [Sheol]

IN SHEOL/HADES THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING
De.31:16 Moses to rest with your fathers
- too many "sleep" "rest" "awake" verses to list
Ecc 9:5 the dead know nothing
Ecc 9:10 in the grave [Sheol] … nor knowledge
Ps 6:4-5 no one remembers you when he is dead
Ps 30:9 will the dust praise you?
Ps 88:5,10-11 remember you no more… praise you?
Isaiah 38:18 grave [Sheol] cannot praise you

Which leaves resurrection of the body (Apostles Creed, 1 Clement)

RESURRECTION, NOT HEAVEN GOING
1Sam 2:6 he brings down to [Sheol] and raises up
Job 14:12-15 hide me in [Sheol]… wait for renewal
Job 19:25-26 redeemer… in [Hebrew] my flesh I will see God
Job 33:25-26 his flesh is renewed as a childs…
Isaiah 26:14 dead… departed… do not rise…
Isaiah 26:19 but your dead will live… earth give birth
Daniel 12:2 some to everlasting life… contempt
Matt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh… Queen of the South
Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection
Acts 23:6 hope in the resurrection of the dead
Acts 24:15 hope… resurrection of both…
Acts 26:6-8 my hope… God raises the dead.
John 5:28-29 rise to live… rise to be condemned
1Co 15:16 if the dead are not raised, then Christ…
1Co 15:23 But each in his own turn; Christ…

Then after resurrection, Judgment

SHEEP -> PARADISE / KINGDOM
Matt 8:11 East and West and sit down with Abraham Isaac & Jacob
Matt 25:34 kingdom prepared… since the foundation
Matt 26:29 until that day… in my Father’s kingdom

Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just
Luke 23:42-43 thief requests remembrance when Christ comes in his kingdom.
Rev2:7 = Gen 2:8 garden
Dan 7:18 receive the kingdom… possess it forever
Rev 5:10 kingdom and priests… reign on earth
Is 65:20-22 he who dies at a hundred… a mere youth
1Co 15:20-23 Each in his own order

GOATS -> GEHENNA
Mark 9:48 [Gehenna]... “their worm does not die”
Isaiah 66:24 dead bodies… their worm will not die
2Thess 1:7-9 blazing fire… everlasting destruction
Luke13:28 weeping… when you see Abraham…

REWARD COMES FROM HEAVEN, NOT US TO HEAVEN
Matt 5:12 great is your reward in heaven
Rev 22:12 I am coming soon… my reward is with me
John 14:2 in my Father’s house there are many rooms
John 14:3 I will come back… where I am
John 14:23 will come to him and make our home [room]
2Co 5:1 an eternal house in heaven
2Co 5:2 heavenly dwelling [dwelling from heaven]
2Co 5:3 not be found naked
2Co 5:4 do not want to be unclothed
2Co 5:10 the judgement seat of Christ
Php 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven
Php 3:20 we eagerly await a saviour from there
Php 3:11 attain to the resurrection from the dead
Php 2:16 boast on the day of Christ

That's a small sample :)
God bless
S

I see some of those verses about Kingdom and judgment fulfilled in Jesus and the gospel, but good observations nevertheless.

enarchay
Sep 16th 2007, 09:04 PM
Every saint in the OT died, that is those whose breath, or spirit ceased went into the grave, the pit, tomb, sheol, hell (call it what you like), and their physical bodies returned to the dust of the earth. The same is true of the physical bodies of everything that dies period.

The breath did not "cease" and go "into the grave." It returned to God.



If this were not true it makes absolutely no sense for Christ to say, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"




Horrible translation.
"Kai [And] pas o [everyone] zon [living] kai [and] pisteuon [believing] eis [in] eme [me] ou un apothane [never dies] eis [into] ton [the] aiwna [age]" (UBS4).In other words, those who believed in Jesus were to receive zoe aionios, "life of the age." That is, after resurrection, they were to gain immortality, rather than destruction. To put it quite simply: those who live and believe in Jesus will never face God's wrath.

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 09:56 PM
Hi,

To me, the life of God is "zoe". It is, by very nature, eternal. The life of God can never die.

What I am thinking I would like to look at, as I'm trying to "figure out" what seems to me like it's "there"... in front of me... yet I'm not seeing it... is...
death and hell.

Is physical death (apart from Christ) synonymous with spiritual hell (apart from Christ)? Jesus got the keys of death and hell. Not a key of death. Not a key of hell. The keys of death and hell. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire (apparently together???).

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (The scripture doesn't say hell is the last enemy... yet the 2 are cast into the lake of fire at the same time.)

Is this a really simple thing... that if I look closer at the physical and spiritual dimensions of physical death and spiritual hell.. the 2 are the same? One physical/one spiritual... both, really, inseparable and the same?

Maybe this is what I'm "missing" (in my understanding)????

Look at Death on a horse as a rider with hell following "him". Is there an "angel of death"??? It's not Satan, right? Satan is in the lake of fire before death and hell are cast therein.

Christians are alive in Jesus Christ. He is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus said we would never die. Death and hell go together. Life and hell don't go together (obviously). And I don't see how we can say "death" in relation to born-again Christians in any way shape or form. Even physical death is not death... but rather deliverance from the body of death, imo. (A promotion.. upward mobility... ;) )

Would love to hear any thoughts on death and hell by those who have studied that out in detail... especially the relationship of the "keys of death and hell"... "Death" being a rider with hell following... "death and hell" being cast into the lake of fire apparently together... possibly.

(Though it's not a pleasant topic, revelation on death and hell will separate in my understanding light from darkness... and will further glorify Jesus Christ in my sight, imo.)

Appreciate any insight.

God bless,

js

2 Samuel 22:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=10&chapter=22&verse=6&version=9&context=verse)
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Psalm 55:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=55&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Proverbs 5:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=5&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Proverbs 7:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=7&verse=27&version=9&context=verse)
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Isaiah 28:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=28&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=28&verse=18&version=9&context=verse)
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Habakkuk 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=42&chapter=2&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Revelation 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=18&version=9&context=verse)
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

justsurfing
Sep 17th 2007, 12:23 AM
[quote=Steven3;1382637]Hi Roger :)Okay, can I make a couple of points :)

1. "breath" and "spirit" are the same word, ruakh. This only means "wind", or breath as in "the spirit in God's nostrils". The ruakh cannot carry the personality, and the ruakh is not a conscious independent entity. Neither the ruakh entering the womb (Ecc 11:5, Ps104:29), nor the ruakh out of man on death (Ecc 8:8, 12:7, Ps104:30)

2. In 3:21 the ESV and most modern versions say "who knows whether..." not "who knoweth that..." KJV, but either way the point is no one knows. If no one knows then it isn't exactly great proof of immortal man-ruakh or non-immortal animal ruakh.

3. Even if some people say the ruakh of man does go up and the animal down, Ecc9:5-10 contradicts that. A living dog (ie poor man) is better off than a dead lion (ie rich man). According to Ecclesiastes the "dead lion" is not in heaven.

4. Ecclesiastes doesn't mention "sons of God" in the book. The phrase "sons of men" (children of men) just means human beings, homo-sapiens. There's no contrast with another category of men called "sons of God". In any case Ecc 9:5,10 "the dead know nothing" doesn't distinguish two groups. If it did that would mean Christ had already judged the people of Ecclesiastes time and rewarded them with heaven before having died for their sins on the cross.


Therefore:

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same ruakh, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows whether the ruakh of man goes upward and the ruakh of the beast goes down into the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?

Ecc11:5 As you do not know the way the ruakh comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

Ecc 8:8 No man has power to retain the ruakh, or power over the day of death. There is no discharge from war, nor will wickedness deliver those who are given to it.

What this means is when the ruakh goes back to God in Ecc12:7, the man cannot hang on to the ruakh's coat tails, so to speak.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the ruakh returns to God who gave it.

As Abraham said "I am but dust and ashes". Abraham did not catch on to the ruakh, he went back to dust. The ruakh also is not idle. God recycles it:

Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their ruakh, they die
and return to their dust.
30 When you send forth your ruakh, they are created,
and you renew the face of the ground.

Hi Steve, :)

I looked up "hell" in Young's Literal Translation. (I'd looked at it a little before... but think I may be grasping and retaining the "breakdown" better now.) "Hell" is not used as a word in the literal translation. "Sheol" is the Hebrew in the OT; "Hades" is the Greek in the NT. "Hades" appears to be merely the word that the Greek writers used for the Hebrew word "sheol".

I looked up the word "Gehenna" which is also used for judgment. The "gehenna" judgment, as a specific word, seems to only have specific application prior to Judgment Day.

Do you think this is a well done study?

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

On the "ruakh", sorry... I don't see God "recycling". God can create new people from His own "ruakh" becoming their "ruakh"... without recycling or person's losing existence as new persons are created. (God births our spirits by His Spirit.)

I really believe that a person's "spirit" is who they are... in Christ... and that's, the way I look at "ruakh" (or spirit) for a Christian.

An unbeliever, who does not have the Spirit of God in their spirits. does not have the same spirit born of God in them as believers... thus the same "breath".

Sincerely, I believe my spirit is my conscious identity. Also, think about Paul. He said he was in the Spirit and went to Heaven... (ie. his spirit did). He said whether in the body or out of the body... I know not. Paul knew his spirit, his conscious identity, went to Heaven. But Paul did not know if his physical body (which was not his truly conscious identity) went to Heaven or not.

Also, I question this: All people who have physically alive bodies have "breath" in them. Could that be why God calls unbelievers "beasts"? Because they are alive and breathing but don't have the Spirit of God the "Breath of God"... in their spirits? They don't have spirits born of God? (So, God, allegorically compares them to beasts in whom His Spirit does not dwell as their spirits, either?)

The breath issue - why God refers to unbelievers as "beasts" or "like beasts" - I'd like to understand, also. I've been trying to read up on it.

There's some things there underneath the basic level of understanding... that I just can't see until I'm sure I see the basics correctly. ("Breath" and "spirit" are key to me.)

Like the spirit returning to God... hmmmm....

Thanks for sharing your perspective...

God bless,

js

RogerW
Sep 17th 2007, 01:51 AM
The breath did not "cease" and go "into the grave." It returned to God.



Horrible translation.
"Kai [And] pas o [everyone] zon [living] kai [and] pisteuon [believing] eis [in] eme [me] ou un apothane [never dies] eis [into] ton [the] aiwna [age]" (UBS4).In other words, those who believed in Jesus were to receive zoe aionios, "life of the age." That is, after resurrection, they were to gain immortality, rather than destruction. To put it quite simply: those who live and believe in Jesus will never face God's wrath.

"Kai [and] pas [whosoever] zao [liveth] kai [and] pisteou eis [in] eme [me] apothnesko ou me eis aion [shall never in this age] apothnesko [die]"

LCV Jo 11:26 And everyone who is living and believing into Me should by no means be dying for the eon.

In other words those who believe in Jesus would never die because spiritual life begins the moment we believe. If this were not true then it makes no sense for Christ to say “even if he should be dying, will be living.” Christ clarifies for Martha that He is not speaking of the bodily resurrection in the last day. He is saying that even as Lazarus is resurrected to physical life, so too all who believe in Him are made spiritually alive, and even though they, like Lazarus may die physically, they in spirit/soul essence shall never die.

Jo 11:24-26 Martha is saying to Him, “I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing into Me, even if he should be dying, will be living. And everyone who is living and believing into Me should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?”

If God is not the God of the dead, and yet He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who are dead, how can He be said to be the God of the living if they have not been made spiritually alive? It’s for certain they are not physically alive.

Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

It seems the Pharisee’s believed in spiritual resurrection.

Acts 23:8 For Sadducees, indeed, are saying there is no resurrection, nor messenger, nor spirit, yet Pharisees are avowing both.

Spirit and body are not used interchangeably in the NT. Spirit is translated from the Greek word pneuma; meaning a current of air, i.e. [B]breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.

Stephen understood the difference between the body and spirit/soul essence of a person. This is why as he was dying he cried out to the Lord to receive his spirit instead of crying out something like receive me.

Acts 7:59 - And they pelted Stephen with stones, while he is invoking and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [pneuma]!”

Christ promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise “today.” Christ went to the grave (hell) physically, so how could He and the thief be together in paradise on “today” unless it was in spirit/soul essence?

Lu 23:42,43 And he said to Jesus, “Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever Thou mayest be coming in Thy kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Verily to you I am saying today, with Me you shall be in the paradise.”

Because Christ knew He and the thief would be together in paradise “today” Scripture tells us He gave up the spirit instead of telling us simply He died.

Jo 19:30 When, then, Jesus took the vinegar, He said, “It has been accomplished!” And reclining His head, He gives up the spirit [pneuma].

Psuche; from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Mt. 10:28 And be not afraid of those who are killing the body [soma], yet are not able to kill the soul [psuche]. Yet be fearing Him rather Who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna.

As we can see from the definitions of soul and spirit it's easy to speak of soul/spirit interchangeably, but it is impossible to speak of the body as being the same as the spirit/soul essence of a person. You can have spirit/soul without a physical body (God, angels) but you cannot have a living body without spirit/soul essence giving it life. I am not speaking of the body that is living without being made spiritually alive.

RW

Steven3
Sep 17th 2007, 08:19 AM
Hi Roger :)
Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If we look in the parallel verse in Luke 20:38 we'll see Jesus' own explanation of this:

"Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

"To him" doesn't mean to anyone and everyone else. In the Bible, as in any literature, there's literal, and then there's figurative. These run as parallel lines in many images, for example:

Literal = literal death, literal life, literal resurrection.
Figurative = figurative death, figurative life, figurative resurrection.

Yes, there are rare exceptions where these are mixed:

"Let the (figurative, spiritually) dead bury their (literal, concrete) dead".

but generally if we skip from the literal track to figurative, or from figurative to literal, and mix-and-match, we're going to end up in a twist.

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham considered that God was able even to raise Isaac from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. (ESV)

All Abraham being "alive to God" means is that Abraham's name is written in the Book of Life. It means that when the Book is opened his name will be read out and he will be raised, to enter with Isaac and Jacob and many from East and West into the kingdom (Matt 8:11). It doesn't mean he went straight to heaven without waiting for Christ to first die for his sins

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (cf John 3:13, Heb 11:13,39-40, 1Co15:23 again)

God bless :)
Steven

PS - see re. the thief on the cross (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272&highlight=thief), cf also John 20:17

Steven3
Sep 17th 2007, 08:40 AM
Hi Laura :)
[quote]I looked up "hell" in Young's Literal Translation. (I'd looked at it a little before... but think I may be grasping and retaining the "breakdown" better now.) "Hell" is not used as a word in the literal translation. "Sheol" is the Hebrew in the OT; "Hades" is the Greek in the NT. "Hades" appears to be merely the word that the Greek writers used for the Hebrew word "sheol".

I looked up the word "Gehenna" which is also used for judgment. The "gehenna" judgment, as a specific word, seems to only have specific application prior to Judgment Day.

Do you think this is a well done study?Haha :D Looks like an excellent study! :)

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html

Interesting, good link, interesting that Milton could identify the difference.

On the "ruakh", sorry... I don't see God "recycling". This comment only refers to Psalm 104:29,30. I can't think of a second verse that so clearly says this -- although note in KJV that may not be obvious as they've translated ruakh in 29 as breath, ruakh in 30 as spirit.

God can create new people from His own "ruakh" becoming their "ruakh"... without recycling or person's losing existence as new persons are created. (God births our spirits by His Spirit.)Obviously so, yes. Ps104:29-30 is only there to prevent people thinking that the ruakh somehow belongs to them and becomes theirs. It doesn't - Ecc8:8,12:7 has the same "ruakh back to God, you go back to dust" idea.
I really believe that a person's "spirit" is who they are... in Christ... and that's, the way I look at "ruakh" (or spirit) for a Christian.Again, literal or figurative. In the NT it speaks of "my spirit" so often of the mind of the living man (in fact ruakh from OT is actually translated "mind" a few times). But our "mind" does not fly back to be with God when we die. That's a figurative use of "breath".
An unbeliever, who does not have the Spirit of God in their spirits. does not have the same spirit born of God in them as believers... thus the same "breath". Literally they do have the same breath. Figuratively they do not have the same breath. So literally we die the same death. If we don't then death isn't real. And there is no need for resurrection of just and unjust.
Sincerely, I believe my spirit is my conscious identity. It is, when you are alive. But when you are dead there is no consciousness - see Hezekiah's attitude to death in Is38:18.
Also, think about Paul. He said he was in the Spirit and went to Heaven... (ie. his spirit did). Um :). 2Co12:2 is just about the most intricate and complicated of Paul's statements against the teachings of the Corinthian Superapostles. It would take a week to go through it. For the time being can we just note one important thing - this vision was before he was dead, correct? So whatever he saw, it doesn't prove Paul's breath was conscious in the "Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574&highlight=sleep)" after he died. He also didn't mention that he saw any other dead people there. This is a big difference from modern visions of heaven - the first thing people mention is seeing the saints, loved ones, and so on.
Also, I question this: All people who have physically alive bodies have "breath" in them. Could that be why God calls unbelievers "beasts"? Ps49:12,20 "like the beasts which perish", but then Ecclesiastes says we all are.
God bless :)
Steven

Steven3
Sep 17th 2007, 09:54 AM
Hi Enarchay
As far as I read N.T. Wright his idea on an "intermediate state" corresponds to little more than the OT/NT "Book of Life" concept. It is a sensitive area though in the Anglican church - I have a friend who runs an Alpha course who thinks as N.T. Wright, his copresenter thinks as Evangelicals, with the result that when they break into coffee-groups his group gets different answers from the other group. But then a bit of diversity is healthy I guess. The great thing about the Anglican communion is the tolerance.
And I agree (as an American), Americans have adopted a sort of escapist theology, largely the result of the popularity of the Left Behind series (which N.T. Wright criticizes as well), where the world sucks and man's immortal soul will flutter off to a "better place."Haha, a favourite article:
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm
God bless
Steven

walked
Sep 17th 2007, 05:55 PM
Hi,

I know there are at least 2 very well studied, :), believers on the forum that believe in soul sleep. With all due respect, I don't. I don't want to debate. I want to "hear out" what your position states.

I have been pondering on the body/soul of sin and the spirit/soul of salvation. I believe the 2 souls/spirits of a person in sin and salvation are 100% separate and different. This means, to me, that a potential (the way I look at things) does exist for "soul sleep" to those souls who are directly connected to the flesh of Adam in sin (the unsaved).

To me, bless you, there is no potential of "soul sleep" to those who are alive in Christ who have a soul directly connected to born-again spirits in Christ.

(I can see why it "could" be possible that a person who has only a soul (of the sinful nature) directly connected to earthly flesh only (you know the scripture that says of this earth, sensual, devilish... etc.)... may possibly have a soul that stops "being conscious"... when the body is completely dead. But I can't see enough to completely rule it out or believe it scripturally. I'm "on the fence"... and won't "rule out" or "believe" something until I see the "big picture".)

Some points: Whether or not I believe the stories of those who died, went to hell and came back alive and became Christians.. an experiential testimony is not biblically "scientific" as a point of reference. I "throw out" personal experiential testimonies as a baseline for biblical truth (They're not sola scripture). I trust the Word alone as the formation of doctrinal positions.

I really have a few questions regarding soul sleep to ask of those who hold the position (recognizing that others will want to share their opposite views that no soul sleep exists).

Here's my first question:

Satan and the evil angels, like Adam, fell from grace. It's not an "exact parallel" with humans... but how do you answer that they are fully conscious... and never experience "soul sleep"?? Don't they die physically?

I'm trying to create "baselines"... so I can biblically logically see the "big picture". I would like to compare/contrast to "look for" biblically illogical pre-suppositions/false conclusions on my part... or yours. :)

Appreciate your assistance.

Love in Christ,

js

I'm so happy that you have raised this issue, the reason it isn't raised as much as it should (which if it was raised more would greatly increase our hope) is that it conflicts with a theory of man of a "rapture"

I'm no scholar but I do study Gods written word in Hebrew and in Greek, which are the original text they were written in.
In my study I find that a rapture isn't made clear BUT !, Christ second coming is made clear, so I wont debate this theory of "rapture" or teach for or against it because its coming or not coming has no bearing on our salvation and sealing unto Himself and, teaching for or against rapture could possibly destroy a fellows hope and or faith BUT !, I will teach on "sleep" and our lords second coming because it is made clear in Gods word.
AND I will also teach that as an obedient child of God walks on earth he also at the same time is a citizen of heaven (Gods city) and also walks and lives there at the same time he walks on earth, this is clear in Gods word too. ....so I assume that if we die or "sleep" on earth we don't by sleeping lose our citizenship and place in heaven because we sleep.

Gods written word teaches that our spirit returns to God when we die because He is the one who gave the spirit and, our body returns to the earth when we die because the earth is who gave it and, our soul sleeps until Christ returns to earth in Gods glory and with a loud noise, then our body is renewed and our soul awakes and the two go forth together as one to meet our Lord at His return/second coming.

God bless you, I hope this helped.

Steven3
Sep 17th 2007, 08:13 PM
Hey Walked :)
Good post (again)
so I assume that if we die or "sleep" on earth we don't by sleeping lose our citizenship and place in heaven because we sleep.

Phil 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

place from heaven :agree:
S.

justsurfing
Sep 18th 2007, 01:05 AM
[quote=RogerW;1383659]"Kai [and] pas [whosoever] zao [liveth] kai [and] pisteou eis [in] eme [me] apothnesko ou me eis aion [shall never in this age] apothnesko [die]"

LCV Jo 11:26 And everyone who is living and believing into Me should by no means be dying for the eon.

In other words those who believe in Jesus would never die because spiritual life begins the moment we believe. If this were not true then it makes no sense for Christ to say “even if he should be dying, will be living.” Christ clarifies for Martha that He is not speaking of the bodily resurrection in the last day. He is saying that even as Lazarus is resurrected to physical life, so too all who believe in Him are made spiritually alive, and even though they, like Lazarus may die physically, they in spirit/soul essence shall never die.


I think you make excellent points here, Roger. We know that in this "age"... many Christians have had their earthly bodies... give way. But, according to the scripture, even in this eon, this age, they do not die.

So, then, they are living through this age. And, I believe, the next age is, perhaps, the return of Jesus Christ. So they are alive with Jesus in spirit... all who have died "in Him". They live through this age... we see their bodies are resurrected for the next age... and they are not hurt in the second death.

Therefore, though the scripture states "age"... when we "carry out the 'timelines'" (as I see it)... they live through age to age... and never die.

Luke 18:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)29and he said to them, `Verily I say to you, that there is not one who left house, or parents, or brothers, or wife, or children, for the sake of the reign of God, 30who may not receive back manifold more in this time, and in the coming age, life age-during.'

There is no conflict, whatsoever (as I see it), in God breaking down the salvation of the saints within the ages... while still showing that the life of the saints continues through and past all ages of this world... into the full reign of God the Father through Jesus Christ at the very end. Jesus was truthful, scripture is consistent (as I see it)... and those who are born of God and thus "live in Christ" will never die.

Romans 5:16-18 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=15) (YLT)

16and not as through one who did sin the free gift, for the judgment indeed of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of `Righteous,'
17for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ.
18So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;



It's the spiritual state that matters. Life is more than physically being... or physical being. (This is a really good study for me overall... and it's excellent, imo, to compare/contrast what we have in Christ... life age-during through all ages in Christ.)

It's about reigning in life through the one: Jesus Christ... the 2nd Adam... the life-giving [I][B]spirit.

Well, I'm very much enjoying pondering the compare/contrast between spiritual life in Christ in the redeemed vs. physical death in those in Adam who are not redeemed, and what that spiritually means.


Jo 11:24-26 Martha is saying to Him, “I am aware that he will be rising in the resurrection in the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing into Me, even if he should be dying, will be living. And everyone who is living and believing into Me should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?”

If God is not the God of the dead, and yet He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who are dead, how can He be said to be the God of the living if they have not been made spiritually alive? It’s for certain they are not physically alive.

Mt 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


Amen. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living. Amen. If they stopped living... only then could they experience "soul death" or "soul interruption". The only people who can experience death are those who are dead in sins and trespasses. And I so want to see that death scripturally - and how body/soul/spirit all tie together in those dead in sins and trespasses.

Upon death, they really are dead. Yet, they are dead while they are living.

......

Whileas we who are in Christ shall never die. The flesh has no power over us to stop us from continually and always being alive in Christ!

:)



It seems the Pharisee’s believed in spiritual resurrection.

Acts 23:8 For Sadducees, indeed, are saying there is no resurrection, nor messenger, nor spirit, yet Pharisees are avowing both.

Spirit and body are not used interchangeably in the NT. Spirit is translated from the Greek word [I]pneuma; meaning a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.


Roger,

remember when Jesus died... He said He "gave up the ghost"?

Well, when we die in Christ... it's just like that, I believe: our bodies give up the ghost. :) A living spirit in Christ... the real, true "us" for "who we are"... "in Christ"... "in spirit and in truth".

It's an anomaly that we, who are Christians and alive in Christ, are in a body of this flesh, imo. We belong in spiritual bodies from Heaven... :).



Stephen understood the difference between the body and spirit/soul essence of a person. This is why as he was dying he cried out to the Lord to receive his spirit instead of crying out something like receive me.


I like the way you put spirit/soul essence away from the body in a Christian. Our bodies do not coincide with our spirits. Only a truly spiritual body from Heaven in resurrection will "coincide with" our spirits in Christ. This body is an anomaly. (This thread is so helping me, imo... because, like I hoped, it's causing me to ponder and more clearly separate in my mind what, yes, I do hazily know... but it's coming sharply into focus!! Thanks, RW, and enarchay, and Steve... :) )

Now, I'm pondering... this is what I'm seeing.... that I saw hazily... and it's coming into sharp focus and clear definition: the spirit/soul of a reprobate person really does coincide with this fallen earthly flesh... because this flesh is of a fallen earth.

I'm seeing it. OK, it's not like "amazing revelation"... nothing new, really... but it's becoming very "awakened"... and I'm getting that inner clarity of separation I'm wanting/seeking in the Lord (and feeling the anointing!.

:)


Acts 7:59 - And they pelted Stephen with stones, while he is invoking and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit [pneuma]!”

Christ promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise “today.” Christ went to the grave (hell) physically, so how could He and the thief be together in paradise on “today” unless it was in spirit/soul essence?

Lu 23:42,43 And he said to Jesus, “Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever Thou mayest be coming in Thy kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Verily to you I am saying today, with Me you shall be in the paradise.”

Because Christ knew He and the thief would be together in paradise “today” Scripture tells us He gave up the spirit instead of telling us simply He died.

Jo 19:30 When, then, Jesus took the vinegar, He said, “It has been accomplished!” And reclining His head, He gives up the spirit [pneuma].

Psuche; from 5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 5315, 7307 and 2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Mt. 10:28 And be not afraid of those who are killing the body [soma], yet are not able to kill the soul [psuche]. Yet be fearing Him rather Who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna.

As we can see from the definitions of soul and spirit it's easy to speak of soul/spirit interchangeably, but it is impossible to speak of the body as being the same as the spirit/soul essence of a person. You can have spirit/soul without a physical body (God, angels) but you cannot have a living body without spirit/soul essence giving it life. I am not speaking of the body that is living without being made spiritually alive.



Roger, I've seen where when the soul (psuche)... of a fallen person (or unregenerate) is spoken... it's not spoken of in the same way as a person who is born of God is spoken in the Bible: as spirit.

It's a really good study on this thread.

Thanks. :)

God bless!

js

justsurfing
Sep 18th 2007, 01:12 AM
[quote=walked;1384297]I'm so happy that you have raised this issue, the reason it isn't raised as much as it should (which if it was raised more would greatly increase our hope) is that it conflicts with a theory of man of a "rapture"

I'm no scholar but I do study Gods written word in Hebrew and in Greek, which are the original text they were written in.
In my study I find that a rapture isn't made clear BUT !, Christ second coming is made clear, so I wont debate this theory of "rapture" or teach for or against it because its coming or not coming has no bearing on our salvation and sealing unto Himself and, teaching for or against rapture could possibly destroy a fellows hope and or faith BUT !, I will teach on "sleep" and our lords second coming because it is made clear in Gods word.
AND I will also teach that as an obedient child of God walks on earth he also at the same time is a citizen of heaven (Gods city) and also walks and lives there at the same time he walks on earth, this is clear in Gods word too. ....so I assume that if we die or "sleep" on earth we don't by sleeping lose our citizenship and place in heaven because we sleep.

Gods written word teaches that our spirit returns to God when we die because He is the one who gave the spirit and, our body returns to the earth when we die because the earth is who gave it and, our soul sleeps until Christ returns to earth in Gods glory and with a loud noise, then our body is renewed and our soul awakes and the two go forth together as one to meet our Lord at His return/second coming.

God bless you, I hope this helped.

God bless you! Wonderful points. I agree with what you say... yet I am seeing what I really can't quite clearly state.

I'll try. The spirit, like you say, is from Heaven. I believe that is "who we are" as citizens of Heaven. The only part of our "souls" that can die with the body... or "sleep"... the way I see it... is any part of our souls that were corrupted through our bodies in sin or lack of sanctification. All of that... the Romans 7 stuff... sin in our members... effecting us... not us but sin dwelling in us... dies with the flesh.

When we are resurrected bodily... it's a new body. A spiritual body. We're absolutely perfect through and through.

Great post! Thanks so much.

God bless,

js

justsurfing
Sep 18th 2007, 01:33 AM
Hi enarchay...:)

It's a little "challenging" for me to understand the meanings of the words and "keep up" with the conversation... but I'm learning from it.

Very helpful. Thanks.


[quote=enarchay;1383071]I do not entirely agree with your strict definition of nephesh. I do agree the soul does not consciously survive death, however. What I would like to point out, though, is that nephesh in the Tanakh also seems to evolve into a concept of a force that maintains the life of a human it is connected with. Nephesh sometimes takes on the meaning "life." However, life is the result of body being connected with spirit, so the Genesis definition is still fitting.

Here's an example:
"For the life [nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls [nephesh], for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life" (Lev 17:11).
The Greek reads:
"E gar [For the] psyche [life] pases [of all] sarkos [flesh] aima autou ts blood[/B]] esti [is] kai [and] egw [I] edoka [gave] auto [it] umin [to you] epi [upon] tou [the] thusiasteriou [altar] exilaskesthai [to atone] peri [for] ton psychon umon to [your souls] (Based on [I]The Apostolic Bible Polyglot, LXX).
Notice how nephesh (and psyche) nearly takes on two separate meanings in a single verse.

Oddly enough, the nephesh is even identified as being the blood!
"But you shall not eat flesh with its life [nephesh], that is, its blood" (Gen 9:4).

"Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life [nephesh], and you shall not eat the life [nephesh] with the flesh" (Deu 12:23).
So I think nephesh not only is used to describe a creature, but also the vitality of that creature. From this we get:
"And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin" (Gen 35:18).
The different uses of nephesh are tricky to reconcile, but I think the idea is that the Hebrews conceived it as describing both man as a living creature and the life of man maintaining him as a living creature (sort of like the ruach, but more in connection with the body, i.e. blood). In the same way we use "life" to describe a multitude of living beings (e.g. "The comet threatens to destroy all life") and also that which makes one a living being (e.g. "His life nearly departed"), so also did the Hebrews use nephesh to describe a living creature, and the force that maintains the living creature.

I think the fact the nephesh was identified with the blood is more evidence that the nephesh was conceived of less as a spiritual entity and more of as something dependent upon, and sometimes synonymous with, the living body. With this mode of thinking, the Jewish Encyclopedia comments that the breath of life of Genesis "was conceived of as inseparably connected, if not wholly identified, with the life-blood (ib. ix. 4; Lev. xvii. 11)."


OK, the only thing I can think to add is that blood circulates oxygen. When speaking of blood, a physician type person could speak of "blood oxygen level": how much oxygen is in the blood.

Obviously, I can only make "comparisons". So, anyway, if breath is life... oxygen which is in our physical breath is being carried in the blood through the body... giving life. So if the physical life is in the blood... perhaps it's the breath (oxygen) in the blood being referred to? Here's physician chat on blood oxygen.

God bless!

js

http://www.lifeheart.com/images/spacer.gif Heart Basics

Blood, Oxygen, and the Lungs

In this article:
http://www.lifeheart.com/images/chevron2_red.gif Oxygen and carbon dioxide in the lungs (http://www.lifeheart.com/patient/heart_basics/blood_oxygen_lungs.asp#itemtwo)
http://www.lifeheart.com/images/spacer.gif
Key Points
Dark blue, oxygen-poor blood travels to the lungs, where the oxygen is exchanged for carbon dioxide received from the capillaries.
The capillaries return the bright red oxygen-rich blood to the heart, which pumps the blood out to the rest of the body.Blood was considered the "lifeblood" in the 16th century. Medical experts of the day thought it was the life-giving force or the body's "seat of vitality."1 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27refs_blood_oxygen_lungs.asp%27%29; ) Today, we understand that blood (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#blood%27%29;) and all the body's organs work together to maintain life.
The human body contains about five quarts of blood. About one-half of this is a straw-colored solution called plasma. It carries substances, such as proteins, fats, sugars, minerals, and other nutrients, throughout the body. The other half of blood is made up of cells: red blood cells (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#redbloodcells%27%29;), white blood cells (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#whitebloodcells%27%29;), and platelets (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#platelets%27%29;). Red blood cells are responsible for carrying oxygen (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#oxygen%27%29;) to the body's cells; they also play an important role in transporting carbon dioxide away from the body's cells. These blood cells are red because of the hemoglobin (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:Start%28%27../../glossary_pop.html#hemoglobin%27%29;) they contain. Hemoglobin binds the oxygen and carries it throughout the body.

justsurfing
Sep 18th 2007, 02:00 AM
Hi Laura :)[quote=justsurfing;1383618]Haha :D Looks like an excellent study! :)
Interesting, good link, interesting that Milton could identify the difference.
This comment only refers to Psalm 104:29,30. I can't think of a second verse that so clearly says this -- although note in KJV that may not be obvious as they've translated ruakh in 29 as breath, ruakh in 30 as spirit.Obviously so, yes. Ps104:29-30 is only there to prevent people thinking that the ruakh somehow belongs to them and becomes theirs. It doesn't - Ecc8:8,12:7 has the same "ruakh back to God, you go back to dust" idea.Again, literal or figurative. In the NT it speaks of "my spirit" so often of the mind of the living man (in fact ruakh from OT is actually translated "mind" a few times). But our "mind" does not fly back to be with God when we die. That's a figurative use of "breath".Literally they do have the same breath. Figuratively they do not have the same breath. So literally we die the same death. If we don't then death isn't real. And there is no need for resurrection of just and unjust.It is, when you are alive. But when you are dead there is no consciousness - see Hezekiah's attitude to death in Is38:18.Um :). 2Co12:2 is just about the most intricate and complicated of Paul's statements against the teachings of the Corinthian Superapostles. It would take a week to go through it. For the time being can we just note one important thing - this vision was before he was dead, correct? So whatever he saw, it doesn't prove Paul's breath was conscious in the "Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574&highlight=sleep)" after he died. He also didn't mention that he saw any other dead people there. This is a big difference from modern visions of heaven - the first thing people mention is seeing the saints, loved ones, and so on.Ps49:12,20 "like the beasts which perish", but then Ecclesiastes says we all are.
God bless :)
Steven

Hi Steven :)

I want to go through your whole post slowly and carefully. I'm trying to really "catch" where you're coming from in paradigm.

Ummmmm... have you ever been "in the Spirit"?? Well, it's just that... I have. :) There was nothing physical, like this life, related to it. No way, I'm sure, to "translate" and "say" what I've seen. But I've seen, and been there... and done that. lol Ok, can I ask you this? What about when the glory cloud was over Israel? That was the spiritual manifesting into our realm. What about that? What about when God manifests His Spirit into our realm... without a body??

It does raise some questions. What do you think of that stuff? (The biblical examples of God manifesting His Spirit?... here on earth... in this realm?)

To me, it's got to be interrelated. If God cannot be limited by Him manifesting His Spirit while we are in bodies on earth... I guess it interrelates with how we could be spiritually alert irrespective of physical bodies...

So I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

God bless!

js

Steven3
Sep 18th 2007, 09:55 AM
Hi Laura :)
[quote=Steven3;1383804]I want to go through your whole post slowly and carefully. I'm trying to really "catch" where you're coming from in paradigm. Then I should post more slowly;)


Ummmmm... have you ever been "in the Spirit"?? Well, it's just that... I have. :) There was nothing physical, like this life, related to it. No way, I'm sure, to "translate" and "say" what I've seen. But I've seen, and been there... and done that. lol Ok, can I ask you this? What about when the glory cloud was over Israel? That was the spiritual manifesting into our realm. What about that? What about when God manifests His Spirit into our realm... without a body?? Mildly "in the spirit" now and then, but I can't claim to have had a vision of the kingdom or anything like that, no. I can understand people having out-of-body experiences, out-of-body perceptions. After all what are dreams? But the term "out-of-body" relates only to subjective perception. The brain activity, REM, heart beat, pulse, all remain very solidly local within the body. It isn't really an "out of body" experience in fact. So it isn't proof of a binary nature in man. This goes back again to the basic difference between the Bible where the soul (nefesh) is fundamentally physical, tangible, concrete, wheras in Platonic thought the soul (anima) as in Hindu or Buddhist thought the soul (atma), is merely inhabiting a flesh shell.

As Bruce Willis identifies himself to a robocop in the Sixth Sense "I'm a meat popsicle". People tend to identify the body that God made "very good" as the source of the problem, and therefore not believe in death. But actually it's the mind/personality that sins, and the mind/personality that deserves to die. Killing the body (which never sinned) and rewarding the mind (which did sin) with eternal life is unjust. This is the basic problem with believing that Abel went straight up to Heaven and Cain straight down to inferno.


It does raise some questions. What do you think of that stuff? (The biblical examples of God manifesting His Spirit?... here on earth... in this realm?)Mmm! :) Well there's a lot of examples in the Bible, which Bible example do you want to start with :)

God bless!
Steven

enarchay
Sep 18th 2007, 11:44 AM
It isn't really an "out of body" experience in fact. So it isn't proof of a binary nature in man. This goes back again to the basic difference between the Bible where the soul (nefesh) is fundamentally physical, tangible, concrete, wheras in Platonic thought the soul (anima) as in Hindu or Buddhist thought the soul (atma), is merely inhabiting a flesh shell. I think you made two really great points here that I would like to pick up on.

First, we tend to associate being Christian with having a “personal experience.” This idea seems to me to be a more modern concept (a form of Romanticism, as Wright I think before pointed out) and in essence is somewhat very un-Jewish. The Jews were not particularly concerned with the individual. Being Jewish was not about saying, “Oh, right, yes, yes, YHWH is the one God; but now I’ll go sit in my own little corner and do my own thing while you do your thing.” Instead, being Jewish was about being a part of not only a community, but also what was conceived of as a God-chosen race. Hence, “salvation” was often concerned with the survival of the nation. In between all this, you have prophets writing as a part of the Jewish community to the Jewish community; some of these texts are not even in our canon, but they all are dealing with, essentially, the same problems: the problem of evil and paganism, God’s covenantal loyalty, and the survival of the nation.

Christianity was not so far removed from Judaism. In the first century, it was not about the personal experiences of the individuals of a community, but about the experiences the communities shared in together. We see this in Acts: the whole gathering is baptized in God’s spirit, speaks in other languages, and prophesies. Paul writes about how the church needs to stay in order and how people need to uplift each other.

So what exactly happens when we get too caught up on “personal experience?” Well, things like cults are formed. Remember Joseph Smith? He sought his own “personal experience” and look where it led him. So when it comes to these out of body experiences, visions of doom, stigmata, and all this stuff, I think we, as a Christian community, need to be especially skeptical. I mean, I could understand if we were all sharing in these out of body experiences; but we are not. The people who have these experiences already have preconceived notions about what the Bible says, what happens after death, what Jesus has said, and even what he looks like! I will give another example and I’m sure I will come under fire for it. In many Pentecostal churches (watch Benny Hinn on TBN, for example), people fall over at the touch of the leading minister. This is the Spirit of God, they say. However, they all expect this very same thing to happen, subconsciously or otherwise, before they even walk into the church. Such events are not so far removed from what goes on outside Christianity. In Eastern religions, and Martial Arts, there is a concept of chi (or the Japanese ki), a force that is behind the universe and that can be evoked for power. The concept if you think about it is not too different from the Pentecostal understanding of the Holy Spirit. In these Martial Arts, these people claim to be able to knock people over and so on. Are they really doing it or is it all-psychological? Are they manipulating a magical force or subconsciously hypnotizing their audience through suggestion? Something I recently saw on the History Channel suggests the latter. A chemist skeptical of the whole concept and its claim to science challenged one of these Marital Artists to knock him over. Guess what? He did not fall. If only you could have heard the lame excuse they came up with to justify his not falling!

My point is, we should be as skeptical of “personal experience” within the community as we should be with experiences outside the community.

With all that said, I do not think out of body experiences should be viewed as reflecting reality any more than Dante’s Inferno reflects the Biblical truths of sheol.

Your other statement about other views of the soul brings me to my text statement. I hope to think, and perhaps it is a naive hope, that Christianity was and is (or at least should be), along with Judaism, quite unique when compared with other religions. Too many, especially Plato, everything in this world was basically useless and temporal. Plato was dealing with a generation that was asking “Why die if I will live a shadowy existence in the next life?” He answered by saying: Hades is not to be feared but to be embraced; the human body is useless—it is a prison for your immortal soul that will live on forever. Of course elements come in to scare the audience as well: If you are bad, you will go to tartarus. Judaism from which Christianity emerged is quite different! To the early Jew, death was in fact the end. The here and now was important. This is why Solomon tells us to enjoy what we have while we have it. But over time the Israelites began to realize that people were dying off before they could see God’s covenantal promises fulfilled. Where was the justice? Many of the evil unrighteous pagans were living happy lives when many of the righteous Jews were dying under YHWH's nose. Through this, the hope arises that YHWH was so loving and powerful that not even death would have the final say over Israel, and that indeed there would be justice; and from this comes resurrection. What sets Judaism apart from these other religions is that the here and now is good; after all, God called his creation “very good.” If the here and now is good, why escape it? Rather, why not bring it back and renew it?

My point is, the day we start thinking the world is so horrible we must escape it is the day we lose touch with our early roots. God’s Kingdom is on Earth. God reigns over us right now. The only thing better (and I speak as a man in very general terms) than what we have now is a renewed Earth free from evil and death.

What it comes down to is whereas Plato envisions the dead fleeing their prison to some other place, the Christians see the prison coming back to the place Plato thought to be inferior, and being actually merged with the superior: from this we have the image of New Jerusalem descending to Earth.

I kind of went off on a rent and maybe I did not get anywhere, but perhaps Steven understands what I am trying to say.

walked
Sep 18th 2007, 04:14 PM
Im sorry I messed this post up...I've reposted it below

walked
Sep 18th 2007, 04:30 PM
I think a search on the word breath when used in Genesis 2:7 would be clarifying before anyone assumes it means oxygen, and the same for the word life before assuming it is meant as blood when its used in this verse in Genesis.

Here is the call number for the word translated to breath in Gen 2:7.....5397
a puff/a wind/divine inspiration/intellect
(i'de say God breathed mans spirit into man from Gods Spirit)

Here is the call number for the word translated to life in Gen 2:7.....2416 creature/living being
(i'de say this breath gave us life/spirit)

Steven3
Sep 19th 2007, 10:28 AM
Hi Enarchay :)
I hope to think, and perhaps it is a naive hope, that Christianity was and is (or at least should be), along with Judaism, quite unique when compared with other religions. Too many, especially Plato, everything in this world was basically useless and temporal. Plato was dealing with a generation that was asking “Why die if I will live a shadowy existence in the next life?” He answered by saying: Hades is not to be feared but to be embraced; the human body is useless—it is a prison for your immortal soul that will live on forever. I completely understand and agree with every word in that post.

I think it has to be said that the concepts of heaven-going and the related Left-Behind idea are fundamentally selfish in the most basic meaning of that term.

I don't just mean that it is selfish to sit on clouds smugly eating ice-cream while Third World wars and poverty continue below (though that in itself is rather at odds with the Sermon on the Mount), but that it is self-based, self-centred rather than the congregation idea which, as you point out, was the core concept of "kingdom" in the OT and NT.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens. He is God, who formed the earth and made it, he established it; he did not create it in vain, he formed it to be inhabited!: “I am the Lord, and there is no other.

Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will among men

Luke 22:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.”
God bless
Steven

RogerW
Sep 20th 2007, 02:00 AM
Hi Roger :)If we look in the parallel verse in Luke 20:38 we'll see Jesus' own explanation of this:

"Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

"To him" doesn't mean to anyone and everyone else. In the Bible, as in any literature, there's literal, and then there's figurative. These run as parallel lines in many images, for example:

Literal = literal death, literal life, literal resurrection.
Figurative = figurative death, figurative life, figurative resurrection.

Yes, there are rare exceptions where these are mixed:

"Let the (figurative, spiritually) dead bury their (literal, concrete) dead".

but generally if we skip from the literal track to figurative, or from figurative to literal, and mix-and-match, we're going to end up in a twist.

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham considered that God was able even to raise Isaac from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. (ESV)

All Abraham being "alive to God" means is that Abraham's name is written in the Book of Life. It means that when the Book is opened his name will be read out and he will be raised, to enter with Isaac and Jacob and many from East and West into the kingdom (Matt 8:11). It doesn't mean he went straight to heaven without waiting for Christ to first die for his sins

I agree. Neither Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or any other OT saint dying in faith went straight to heaven without waiting for Christ to first die for their sins, and go to heaven to prepare a place for them. I refer you to post #22 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1383217&postcount=22) in this current thread.

Lk 20:38 Now He is not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all are living, to Him.

Ro 14:8-9 For, as well, if we should be living, we are living to the Lord, if we should be dying, we are dying to the Lord. Then, as well, if we should be living as we should be dying, we are the Lord's. For for this Christ died, and lives, that He should be Lord of both the dead and the living.

This is why Christ died; that He might be Lord of every believer, whether living or dead. Since the cross and resurrection of Christ, physical death does not prevent us from spiritually living with the Lord.



PS - see re. the thief on the cross (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272&highlight=thief), cf also John 20:17

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily to you I am saying today, with Me you shall be in paradise."

Greek sentence structure: The Jesus Amen to-you I-AM-Saying today with ME you-will-be in the park

If the Lord did not mean that the theif on the cross would be in paradise with Christ "today" why state it? It is illogical for Christ to say "Today" if he simply meant that the theif would be with Him in paradise at the last day. Very obviously Jesus is speaking "today", so why add "today" unless Christ wants the theif and us to understand that both He and the theif would ascend spiritually into heaven "today"?

Jo 20:17 Jesus is saying to her, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Now go to My brethren, and say to the, "Lo! I am ascnding to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

This does not mean that Christ had not spiritually ascended to the Father already. Christ is telling Mary to stop clinging to Him, for He hasn't yet ascended bodily, so go and tell His disciples all that she had seen and that He would be ascending to His Father bodily, but not before showing Himself to many witnesses, and giving commandments unto His apostles.

Lu 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Ac 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 20th 2007, 03:25 AM
[quote=Steven3;1385051]Hi Laura :)[quote=justsurfing;1384826]Then I should post more slowly;)


Hi Steve :),

It's not the speed of the volume of the posts... it's the content speed of the posts. (Others are more "quick" than me relative to language... etc. lol)



Mildly "in the spirit" now and then, but I can't claim to have had a vision of the kingdom or anything like that, no. I can understand people having out-of-body experiences, out-of-body perceptions. After all what are dreams? But the term "out-of-body" relates only to subjective perception. The brain activity, REM, heart beat, pulse, all remain very solidly local within the body. It isn't really an "out of body" experience in fact. So it isn't proof of a binary nature in man. This goes back again to the basic difference between the Bible where the soul (nefesh) is fundamentally physical, tangible, concrete, wheras in Platonic thought the soul (anima) as in Hindu or Buddhist thought the soul (atma), is merely inhabiting a flesh shell.


Hmmmm... well... I had an experience maybe I'll tell you about. :)


As Bruce Willis identifies himself to a robocop in the Sixth Sense "I'm a meat popsicle".

Now!! Bruce Willis!! I can keep up with him... and his language.

jk

People tend to identify the body that God made "very good" as the source of the problem, and therefore not believe in death. But actually it's the mind/personality that sins, and the mind/personality that deserves to die. Killing the body (which never sinned)

But we get a new body... because this one is of the earth... etc.


and rewarding the mind (which did sin) with eternal life is unjust. This is the basic problem with believing that Abel went straight up to Heaven and Cain straight down to inferno.


Hmph! lol

:)

Romans 7 says that I don't sin with my spirit... it's through my flesh that sin is manifested into my soul. Well, I haven't really yet "gotten to" really meditating on or looking up the scriptures relative to Cain. And Abel was OT... and I don't know about OT saints. But since we're in the NT now, I'm satisfied with NT understanding.

OK, I'm going to share one of my "experiences". OK, I'm reading the Bible... and communing with God. And I'm reading about when Jesus was in the synagogue and healed the man with the shriveled arm. And so... I ask God, "What is up with that?" (not in those words... but general concept). I wanted to know about the healing virtue of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"immediately... I was in the Spirit". :)

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I guess I won't say how the Lord revealed to me "the answer". But I asked God how it was that Jesus healed... and everyone was healed, etc. And He answered me so powerfully... I have no further questions. I understand it... can't explain it... but I have no further questions.

:)




Mmm! :) Well there's a lot of examples in the Bible, which Bible example do you want to start with :)


Solomon prays and shekinah glory fills the temple and no one can stand because of the glory.

:)

Love in Christ,

js

Steven3
Sep 20th 2007, 08:11 AM
Hi Laura :)
But we get a new body... because this one is of the earth... etc.Yes, but, for example the "absent from the body, at home with Lord" verse in 2Co5 is not "naked", it is the same resurrection-body as in 1Co15. There's a very good explanation of this in one of N.T. Wright's books - maybe 'Jesus and the Victory of God'. The new body is a body like Jesus' body - according to Paul, so it is "not a spirit" as Christ told his disciples in Luke 24 when he eat breakfast with them.

Phil 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead...........20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

N.T. Wright, like John A.T. Robertson and many others before him, points out that the hope of Christians changed from the early church, where people believed the above, to a Platonist belief that the body, physical nature itself, was evil (not "very good" as God made it), and rejected the three ideas of Paul in bold above.


Romans 7 says that I don't sin with my spirit... it's through my flesh that sin is manifested into my soul. Well, I haven't really yet "gotten to" really meditating on or looking up the scriptures relative to Cain. And Abel was OT... and I don't know about OT saints. But since we're in the NT now, I'm satisfied with NT understanding.Romans 7 only mentions "spirit" and "sin" in 7:14

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

In Ro8 it's true that if the spirit of Christ is in a man that is freed from the ultimate consequence Adam's curse:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

But this is all figurative - Paul's body, the meat on his bones, never made him sin. The "flesh" is in his head, in his brain. Christians like to think that their body (which God made) is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed, rather than transformed, but in the Bible it is the soul/spirit/mind/heart of man which is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed. If there was any heaven-going (which there isn't John 3:13) then to maintain justice it should be our bodies, which didn't sin, going to heaven (sic), and our souls/spirits/minds/hearts which are full of sin being buried. It's the same old theme - the flight from responsibility - it's either the serpent's fault, or the body's fault, or society's fault, anyone or anything else's fault that I sin except what the Bible says it is - my fault, my responsibility, my heart, my spirit, my mind.

The only just solution to this flesh-in-the-brain problem is resurrection, not heaven-going.


OK, I'm going to share one of my "experiences". OK, I'm reading the Bible... and communing with God. And I'm reading about when Jesus was in the synagogue and healed the man with the shriveled arm. And so... I ask God, "What is up with that?" (not in those words... but general concept). I wanted to know about the healing virtue of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"immediately... I was in the Spirit". :)

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I guess I won't say how the Lord revealed to me "the answer". But I asked God how it was that Jesus healed... and everyone was healed, etc. And He answered me so powerfully... I have no further questions. I understand it... can't explain it... but I have no further questions.

:)
That's wonderful :D, but you were only in figurative-spirit. You weren't in ghost-mode, your body was still alive and just as if someone had come up to you and, God forbid, "unplugged you" so to speak, stopped your heartbeat, that wonderful spirit-experience would have also stopped. That spirit[ual] experience is not immortality, it isn't proof that you can survive without a body, in fact it proves the opposite - that someone can have a body, and still have a spirit[ual] experience.

God bless ;)
S.

RogerW
Sep 20th 2007, 04:01 PM
Hi Laura :)Yes, but, for example the "absent from the body, at home with Lord" verse in 2Co5 is not "naked", it is the same resurrection-body as in 1Co15. There's a very good explanation of this in one of N.T. Wright's books - maybe 'Jesus and the Victory of God'. The new body is a body like Jesus' body - according to Paul, so it is "not a spirit" as Christ told his disciples in Luke 24 when he eat breakfast with them.

Phil 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead...........20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.


What does Paul mean in vs 20 above when he says, "our citizenship is in heaven, and FROM IT we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ"?



Romans 7 only mentions "spirit" and "sin" in 7:14

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

In Ro8 it's true that if the spirit of Christ is in a man that is freed from the ultimate consequence Adam's curse:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

But this is all figurative - Paul's body, the meat on his bones, never made him sin. The "flesh" is in his head, in his brain. Christians like to think that their body (which God made) is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed, rather than transformed, but in the Bible it is the soul/spirit/mind/heart of man which is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed. If there was any heaven-going (which there isn't John 3:13) then to maintain justice it should be our bodies, which didn't sin, going to heaven (sic), and our souls/spirits/minds/hearts which are full of sin being buried. It's the same old theme - the flight from responsibility - it's either the serpent's fault, or the body's fault, or society's fault, anyone or anything else's fault that I sin except what the Bible says it is - my fault, my responsibility, my heart, my spirit, my mind.

The only just solution to this flesh-in-the-brain problem is resurrection, not heaven-going.

It is true that sin is concieved in our hearts and minds, however without the body yeilding to our sinful lusts, sin could not be carried out. We don't blame the physical body for having committed the sin we concieved in our inward man, but we do need to keep the physical body unto subjection of the Spirit now living in us. This was not possible before being made Spiritually alive in Christ, but now that our spirit/soul essence is subjected to the Holy Spirit we choose to serve the Lord with our spirit/soul essence and to keep our mortal physical bodies without outward sin.

The thoughts of the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit, oppose and will subdue the natural (fleshly) evil desires, 1Co 15:57; but in the unregenerate heart these reign uncontrolled, and lead to greater and greater outward sin, and secure eternal death, Jas 1:14-15 “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”

This is why Paul warns us repeatedly not to yield our mortal bodies as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul longs for the day when his body of flesh is demolished (he physical dies), knowing that he has a home in heaven built by God, but Paul also acknowledges that though he cannot be with the Lord in his mortal body, when he is out of his body he will be at home with the Lord. "Being, then courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord (for we are walking by faith, not by perception), yet lighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord. Wherefore we are ambitious also, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to Him."

Blessings,
RW

Steven3
Sep 20th 2007, 09:36 PM
Hi Roger :)
What does Paul mean in vs 20 above when he says, "our citizenship is in heaven, and FROM IT we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ"? Probably exactly what it says; that our citizenship is in heaven and Christ is bringing it down here when he comes again in like manner

Even without reading the next verse about "transforming our bodies" (see 1Co15) it is clearly about resurrection not heaven-going.


It is true that sin is concieved in our hearts and minds, however without the body yeilding to our sinful lusts, sin could not be carried out.Not sure I see the point. Isn't that a bit like charging a breadknife with murder? The body was not designed for sin, it is the heart with is "deceitful above all things". The soul/mind is what sins, the wages of sin are death, ergo the soul/mind dies. "The soul that sinneth shall die", not "the soul that sinneth shall automatically get eternal life". ;)


"Being, then courageous always, and aware that, being at home in the body, we are away from home from the Lord (for we are walking by faith, not by perception), yet lighting rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord. Wherefore we are ambitious also, whether at home or away from home, to be well pleasing to Him." Interesting version... Tyndale? Coverdale? :) regardless the verse in context again indicates resurrection, not heaven-going.

2 Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Sorry to say this, no disrespect :), but if there was any evidence for heaven-going in the Bible someone somewhere would have found it by now. It's not for lack of people looking for proof verses, or wanting it to be in the Bible. But it's the last thing Paul would have wanted:

Philippians 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

God bless
Steven

justsurfing
Sep 20th 2007, 11:24 PM
[quote=Steven3;1387446]Hi Laura :)Yes, but, for example the "absent from the body, at home with Lord" verse in 2Co5 is not "naked", it is the same resurrection-body as in 1Co15. There's a very good explanation of this in one of N.T. Wright's books - maybe 'Jesus and the Victory of God'. The new body is a body like Jesus' body - according to Paul, so it is "not a spirit" as Christ told his disciples in Luke 24 when he eat breakfast with them.

Phil 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead...........20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.


See what I see? I'm trying to get your perspective... but this is how my thoughts work: we are not waiting, as Christians, from earth to get a new body.. we are waiting... from heaven. Our citizenship in heaven is of greater weight and glory than our fleshly appearance of being on earth.

As Christians, we are in heaven and on earth... at the same time. And, to me, our citizenship in heaven... our position... "in Christ" is of greater weight than our appearing to be on earth.


N.T. Wright, like John A.T. Robertson and many others before him, points out that the hope of Christians changed from the early church, where people believed the above, to a Platonist belief that the body, physical nature itself, was evil (not "very good" as God made it), and rejected the three ideas of Paul in bold above.


OK, I believe that this fleshly body is "permeable" spiritually... to Satan and the sinful nature. It's kind of like "guns don't kill people. people kill people." (must be cause you brought up Bruce Willis - and I loved "DieHard"... 1,2,3... etc. :) that now I'm thinking "gun" parables. lol )

Are you saying that the body itself is not "bad"... but it's just that the body is "permeable" to forces of evil? Whereas our new bodies will not be?

That the body, in your view, is thus "neutral"??? (Jesus was sinless in human form... so there is a solid "precedent" for that position, imo... just wanting to "hear you out".)



Romans 7 only mentions "spirit" and "sin" in 7:14

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.



I believe the above scripture states that man in a sinful state is of the flesh... born from below... not from above. How it applies to Christians... well, man "according to the flesh"... can walk that way if he is still "carnal" and walks as a "mere man"... even though he is born from above. (I couldn't find the scripture in the KJV... but Paul speaks of carnal Christians as walking as though they are "mere men".... somewhere.)


In Ro8 it's true that if the spirit of Christ is in a man that is freed from the ultimate consequence Adam's curse:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.


Ultimate consequence... yes. But we are set free here and now... and, to me, the reality in Christ that is spiritual is, personally, primary to me in identity and paradigm, being... reality to me.



But this is all figurative - Paul's body, the meat on his bones, never made him sin. The "flesh" is in his head, in his brain.

Yes, I can see that. (if I'm understanding what you're saying.) It's a spiritual reality of sin that is... metaphysical... functioning through the physical.


Christians like to think that their body (which God made) is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed, rather than transformed, but in the Bible it is the soul/spirit/mind/heart of man which is the source of sin and deserves to die and be destroyed.

Sin is metaphysical...


If there was any heaven-going (which there isn't John 3:13) then to maintain justice it should be our bodies, which didn't sin, going to heaven (sic), and our souls/spirits/minds/hearts which are full of sin being buried. It's the same old theme - the flight from responsibility - it's either the serpent's fault, or the body's fault, or society's fault, anyone or anything else's fault that I sin except what the Bible says it is - my fault, my responsibility, my heart, my spirit, my mind.


We must take responsibility before we can take authority, in Christ, over the sinful nature...

When we abdicate responsibility for sin in the old man... we disempower ourselves and disconnect from the authority God has given us in Christ over sin in the new man.


The only just solution to this flesh-in-the-brain problem is resurrection, not heaven-going.


Listening... still listening... yet... to me, I have the solution in that I have already experienced spiritual resurrection inside that has made me a new creature.


Galatians 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Galatians 6:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Galatians 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=6&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=24&version=9&context=verse)
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ephesians 4:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Ephesians 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=3&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


That's wonderful :D, but you were only in figurative-spirit. You weren't in ghost-mode, your body was still alive and just as if someone had come up to you and, God forbid, "unplugged you" so to speak, stopped your heartbeat, that wonderful spirit-experience would have also stopped. That spirit[ual] experience is not immortality, it isn't proof that you can survive without a body, in fact it proves the opposite - that someone can have a body, and still have a spirit[ual] experience.


That's a good point.

? - can someone be dead and still have spiritual power in their dead body?

(trick question - I have an example of this in the Bible... and wonder what your thoughts are... I sincerely haven't contemplated how I look at this scripture... but wonder what you see from your point of view.)

2 Kings 13:20-21 (King James Version)

20And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
21And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.



And, if you'd like, I'd like to hear what you think about God's Spirit manifesting on earth without Him bodily manifesting... like when Solomon prayed and glory of God filled the temple. (and people couldn't stand).

2 Chronicles 7:1-3 (King James Version)

2 Chronicles 7 1Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
2And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD's house.



When I think of God... I don't think of a body... I think of God's Spirit. Maybe that's a lot of the reason why... I don't think of a "body" for Christians and see them as present with the Lord in spirit.


God bless, :)

js

justsurfing
Sep 21st 2007, 04:25 AM
? - would like perspectives.

In my understanding, I don't feel I've "thought through" the scripture and sought the Lord to clearly understand spiritual law through each of the stages of states of being of man. How I think is this: spiritual law exists whether we understand it or not. I want to understand spiritual law and how to apply it... and I want mastery in this application of spiritual law to life and death in Christ and in a sinful unbelieving state.

? - What happened when Jesus rose from the dead?

(I'll expand what I'm thinking, then ask everyone to come back to this ? - and please share with me what you see.)

OK, I see Jesus talking about the rich man in Hades and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom... fully conscious. I do understand, Steven, that you and I believe enarchay state that this is kind of a "fable". You say Jesus was using a Greek mythological view as an allegory as evidenced by His usage of the term "Hades". However, I really can't "buy" that explanation... cause I just can't see Jesus "teaching" another religion: Greek mythology.

This "explanation" seems to make better sense to me... what do you 2 (and others) think? I don't believe Jesus used the term "Hades". I believe Jesus used the Hebrew term "sheol". I believe Jesus was speaking Hebrew... and the Bible was written in a Greek language... so in the translation... the writers used the term "Hades".

That's what I'm going to "read in"... unless you can correct me in a way I understand. Now, from this basis of Jesus saying "sheol"... all objections to the use of a Greek mythological terms... for me... are gone. It was literal and a true story. STILL... that doesn't mean spiritual law was not implemented in a "new way"... when Jesus went to the cross... crucifying the body of death... and releasing... His "life-giving spirit".

Look at what happened, in a "manifestation"... God meant to give us in our "sleuthing":

Matthew 27:50-53 (New Living Translation)50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

I'm sorry if this is long... but I find this "critical". When Jesus was speaking the parable of the rich man and Lazarus... that was in a "different age". The moment Jesus released His "lifegiving" spirit... the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, and tombs were opened. I don't quite understand the timing the way the scripture reads. Perhaps this first manifestation occurred, then the next a after His resurrection? The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. They went into the holy city of Jerusalem and appeared to many people.

Help me! :)

#1.... It seems as if they appeared kinda like Jesus appeared... not "permanently"... or something. (Jesus of course returned to Heaven.) The way this is phrased... it does not sound like their resurrection was a resurrection intended to continue their lives on earth... but, really, an exact parallel of Jesus' resurrection.

Your primary objection, Steven and enarchay, is to saints not having bodies. But these saints were literally raised from the dead... appeared... then seemed to "disappear"... the way this is phrased. (Like they made a short period "appearance".. but doesn't seem to indicate that they continued to live on earth...)

How do we know, reading the Bible, that this isn't an "intermediary" body they receive... until the final transformation upon Jesus' return??? I know... left field question. Yet, they are not part of the "first resurrection"... yet they resurrected... and seemed only to appear for a period of time. (I open my understanding to "ideas"...and if they are scripturally ruled out... fine.)

However, I see a definite "change" in "spiritual law" occurring as the result of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ... the institution of the spiritual realities of the new covenant. How people died and where they were prior to the death of the Testator of the new covenant of Christ's blood... appears to me, by spiritual law, to have changed. The testament changed. I am not going to "rule out" that what Jesus accomplished changed "spiritual law"... invoking God's spiritually perfect will at a whole new level for those who die: both saved and unsaved.

Neither can I apply the same spiritual law to those who die apart from Christ vs. in Christ. I think an argument for "soul sleep" or "soul death" vs "consciousness" of those who die apart from Jesus Christ cannot stand on one scripture alone (the parable of Hades Jesus gave)... after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Personally, I need more scripture to see (for myself) the states of those who die apart from Christ... because what Jesus Christ accomplished is so absolutely incredible spiritually and instituted an entirely new covenant... thus "spiritual law". The covenant changed... the law changed... spiritual law changed... and how that applies... I'm not going to say I have "down" in my understanding 100% to those I term "reprobate" in this life: dying in sin and unbelief.

Jesus Christ took from Satan the keys of death and Hades (sheol)... and how does that "effect" those who die in sin and unbelief?? Are they knocked "unconscious" even as the dead in Christ are released from "Abraham's bosom"???

I'm not saying I know. (I'd like to know.)

:)

Thanks!

And God bless,

Laura

RogerW
Sep 21st 2007, 05:09 AM
Interesting version... Tyndale? Coverdale? :) regardless the verse in context again indicates resurrection, not heaven-going.

2 Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Sorry to say this, no disrespect :), but if there was any evidence for heaven-going in the Bible someone somewhere would have found it by now. It's not for lack of people looking for proof verses, or wanting it to be in the Bible. But it's the last thing Paul would have wanted:

Philippians 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

God bless
Steven

Greetings Steven,

Tell me something, how many resurrections do you find in Scripture? I ask because Scripture indicates to me there is more than one.

I am quoting from the Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture.

Rev 20:4-6 And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted them. And the souls of those who have been excuted because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand - they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead live not until the thousand years should be finished.) This is the former resurrection. Happy and holy is he who is having a part in the former resurrection; over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.

Compare these souls in Rev 20 with the souls of those martyred in Rev 6.

Rev 6:9-11 And when He opens the fifth seal, I perceived underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. And they cry with a loud voice, saying: "Till when, O Owner, holy and true, art thou not judging and avenging our blood on those who are dwelling on the earth?" And to each of them was given a white robe, and it was declared to them that they should be resting still a little time, till their fellowslaves, also, and their brethren, who are about to be killed as they also were, should be completing them.

Notice that here in chapter 6 their is no mention of them being slain for the testimony of Jesus. They have lived and died before Jesus went to the cross. Also these are not reigning with the Lord in heaven, but are found underneath the altar. I believe in Rev 6 John sees OT saints who have died in faith never having received the promise of an eternal inheritance. They looked for a city whose builder and maker is God eternal in the heavens. But they could not receive this promised inheritance until Christ went to the cross.

In Rev 20 John sees not only thrones and those seated upon them, but he also sees all those who are martyred for not only the Word of God, but the testimony of Jesus. These are all the OT saints who died in faith without receiving the promise as well as all who die during the New Testament era. Judgment is given them, and they are reigning with Christ for the thousand years. John refers to this as the former, or first resurrection. This first resurrection is spiritual, and in the fullness of time will come the resurrection you are focused on which is bodily.

As you have pointed out repeatedly there is without doubt a bodily resurrection in the fullness of time, but what you continue to deny is that when we become saved we receive spiritual life everlasting.

The nature of baptism into Christ is burial, which signifies not only being dead with Christ and the blessings resulting from that union, but our being dead to the world and sin, even as Christ was finished with the sins He bore. The end of baptism into Christ is spiritual resurrection, even as Christ arose, we are in the likeness of His resurrection. We are no longer dead in trespasses and sin, but under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit, having been made spiritually alive.

KJV 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Our old man consists of parts and members such as will, mind, affection and actions (Eph 4:22; Col 3:9,10). This old man is never improved, it must be destroyed. It is crucified daily by the Holy Spirit and grace of Christ that its power might be subdued. The old man remains part of us until death, but we shall not indulge it nor make provisions for it, but crucify it. We serve Christ, not sin because we have received spiritual life, we have been resurrected from spiritual death to everlasting spiritual life.

KJV Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

KJV Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We are not free from the presence of sin, nor from the burden of it, nor from a continual war with it, nor even from it in our best deeds, but since we have been made spiritually alive in Christ we are free from sins dominion over us, and free from the guilt of sin and from the punishment on account of it. Since believers have been made one with Christ in His death, we have sure promise of forever living with Him, now in spirit, and in the fullness of time in body and spirit.

There is NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ. We are free from the law of sin and death. We know our bodies will die, but we have His sure promise of life everlasting. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, not even death.

KJV Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

To believe in soul sleep I would have to deny this passage of Scripture telling me that even death cannot separate me from His love. Believers can never go into a state of soul sleep having no awareness or knowledge of the love the Lord has for His own. That would be a denial of the everlasting spiritual life we received in Him.

KJV Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Sep 21st 2007, 05:25 AM
? - would like perspectives.

In my understanding, I don't feel I've "thought through" the scripture and sought the Lord to clearly understand spiritual law through each of the stages of states of being of man. How I think is this: spiritual law exists whether we understand it or not. I want to understand spiritual law and how to apply it... and I want mastery in this application of spiritual law to life and death in Christ and in a sinful unbelieving state.

? - What happened when Jesus rose from the dead?

(I'll expand what I'm thinking, then ask everyone to come back to this ? - and please share with me what you see.)

OK, I see Jesus talking about the rich man in Hades and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom... fully conscious. I do understand, Steven, that you and I believe enarchay state that this is kind of a "fable". You say Jesus was using a Greek mythological view as an allegory as evidenced by His usage of the term "Hades". However, I really can't "buy" that explanation... cause I just can't see Jesus "teaching" another religion: Greek mythology.

This "explanation" seems to make better sense to me... what do you 2 (and others) think? I don't believe Jesus used the term "Hades". I believe Jesus used the Hebrew term "sheol". I believe Jesus was speaking Hebrew... and the Bible was written in a Greek language... so in the translation... the writers used the term "Hades".

That's what I'm going to "read in"... unless you can correct me in a way I understand. Now, from this basis of Jesus saying "sheol"... all objections to the use of a Greek mythological terms... for me... are gone. It was literal and a true story. STILL... that doesn't mean spiritual law was not implemented in a "new way"... when Jesus went to the cross... crucifying the body of death... and releasing... His "life-giving spirit".

Look at what happened, in a "manifestation"... God meant to give us in our "sleuthing":

Matthew 27:50-53 (New Living Translation)50 Then Jesus shouted out again, and he released his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, 52 and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. 53 They left the cemetery after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city of Jerusalem, and appeared to many people.

I'm sorry if this is long... but I find this "critical". When Jesus was speaking the parable of the rich man and Lazarus... that was in a "different age". The moment Jesus released His "lifegiving" spirit... the temple curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks split apart, and tombs were opened. I don't quite understand the timing the way the scripture reads. Perhaps this first manifestation occurred, then the next a after His resurrection? The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead. They went into the holy city of Jerusalem and appeared to many people.

Help me! :)

#1.... It seems as if they appeared kinda like Jesus appeared... not "permanently"... or something. (Jesus of course returned to Heaven.) The way this is phrased... it does not sound like their resurrection was a resurrection intended to continue their lives on earth... but, really, an exact parallel of Jesus' resurrection.

Your primary objection, Steven and enarchay, is to saints not having bodies. But these saints were literally raised from the dead... appeared... then seemed to "disappear"... the way this is phrased. (Like they made a short period "appearance".. but doesn't seem to indicate that they continued to live on earth...)

How do we know, reading the Bible, that this isn't an "intermediary" body they receive... until the final transformation upon Jesus' return??? I know... left field question. Yet, they are not part of the "first resurrection"... yet they resurrected... and seemed only to appear for a period of time. (I open my understanding to "ideas"...and if they are scripturally ruled out... fine.)

However, I see a definite "change" in "spiritual law" occurring as the result of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ... the institution of the spiritual realities of the new covenant. How people died and where they were prior to the death of the Testator of the new covenant of Christ's blood... appears to me, by spiritual law, to have changed. The testament changed. I am not going to "rule out" that what Jesus accomplished changed "spiritual law"... invoking God's spiritually perfect will at a whole new level for those who die: both saved and unsaved.

Neither can I apply the same spiritual law to those who die apart from Christ vs. in Christ. I think an argument for "soul sleep" or "soul death" vs "consciousness" of those who die apart from Jesus Christ cannot stand on one scripture alone (the parable of Hades Jesus gave)... after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Personally, I need more scripture to see (for myself) the states of those who die apart from Christ... because what Jesus Christ accomplished is so absolutely incredible spiritually and instituted an entirely new covenant... thus "spiritual law". The covenant changed... the law changed... spiritual law changed... and how that applies... I'm not going to say I have "down" in my understanding 100% to those I term "reprobate" in this life: dying in sin and unbelief.

Jesus Christ took from Satan the keys of death and Hades (sheol)... and how does that "effect" those who die in sin and unbelief?? Are they knocked "unconscious" even as the dead in Christ are released from "Abraham's bosom"???

I'm not saying I know. (I'd like to know.)

:)

Thanks!

And God bless,

Laura

Greetings Laura,

It's very late, and I am very tired so for now I am going to be quite brief. Had you ever stopped to consider that after the cross the literal city, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city (see Rev 21:2)? If that's true then those bodies of the saints coming out of their graves after His resurrection would not have been seen on earth, but in heaven. I believe this is a picture of all those OT saints who had died in faith without having received the promise, ascending spiritually into heaven after the cross. We can discuss this more later if you would like, but for now I really must say good night.

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 21st 2007, 06:02 AM
First, we tend to associate being Christian with having a “personal experience.” This idea seems to me to be a more modern concept (a form of Romanticism, as Wright I think before pointed out) and in essence is somewhat very un-Jewish. All those with whom God had relationship personally... to me, had experiences. Angels appeared to people... the glory of God filled the temple ... I mean I really think about the OT. Jacob's ladder... him seeing angels ascending and descending... Ezekiel saw the wheel... Daniel had visions... God appeared to Job... God walked with Adam in the cool of the day. Enoch walked with God and was not because God took him.

All throughout the OT... we see God literally manifesting Himself to people in such incredible personal presence and power... it's really, in a way, more "visual"... more manifestly clear of God (Moses' face shining because of the glory... God making the mountain shake and smoke... appearing in the burning bush... etc., etc.)

God made Himself known, :), to those who were Jews inwardly... and manifested Himself so powerfully on behalf of individuals and the nation of Israel. I can't see how we can say that this is not Jewish history... God being powerfully in personal relationship with them... and them experiencing God in a very personal, intimate, powerful,... incredible manner.


The Jews were not particularly concerned with the individual. Being Jewish was not about saying, “Oh, right, yes, yes, YHWH is the one God; but now I’ll go sit in my own little corner and do my own thing while you do your thing.” Instead, being Jewish was about being a part of not only a community, but also what was conceived of as a God-chosen race.A-men!!!!

:)

I think you are "right on" with the heart of God!!! We are a family, we are a community, we are a race... and God wants us to rise "higher" in His Spirit so that we can "let go" of individualism that is, really, of the old self... imo... and become one in unity and maturity... loving God and our neighbors as ourselves... so God can manifest His love the way it was fully intended: as loving equals of one community... :)

That's truly, to me, God's kingdom coming... Heaven... on earth. Apart from a strong view of unity, diversity, equality... in community!!... we have not grown enough in Christ... to manifest God's true heart... of love... for each the same as His love for all.



Hence, “salvation” was often concerned with the survival of the nation. In between all this, you have prophets writing as a part of the Jewish community to the Jewish community; some of these texts are not even in our canon, but they all are dealing with, essentially, the same problems: the problem of evil and paganism, God’s covenantal loyalty, and the survival of the nation.
Amen. (I think I may be "missing" a little... and could even ask you to further expand so I could get "more" of your "vision" here... )


Christianity was not so far removed from Judaism. In the first century, it was not about the personal experiences of the individuals of a community, but about the experiences the communities shared in together. We see this in Acts: the whole gathering is baptized in God’s spirit, speaks in other languages, and prophesies. Paul writes about how the church needs to stay in order and how people need to uplift each other.
A-men!!!

(good preaching, here... :)... I think it's preaching... and it's good.)


So what exactly happens when we get too caught up on “personal experience?” Well, things like cults are formed. Remember Joseph Smith? He sought his own “personal experience” and look where it led him. So when it comes to these out of body experiences, visions of doom, stigmata, and all this stuff, I think we, as a Christian community, need to be especially skeptical. I mean, I could understand if we were all sharing in these out of body experiences; but we are not. The people who have these experiences already have preconceived notions about what the Bible says, what happens after death, what Jesus has said, and even what he looks like! I will give another example and I’m sure I will come under fire for it. In many Pentecostal churches (watch Benny Hinn on TBN, for example), people fall over at the touch of the leading minister. This is the Spirit of God, they say. However, they all expect this very same thing to happen, subconsciously or otherwise, before they even walk into the church. Such events are not so far removed from what goes on outside Christianity. In Eastern religions, and Martial Arts, there is a concept of chi (or the Japanese ki), a force that is behind the universe and that can be evoked for power. The concept if you think about it is not too different from the Pentecostal understanding of the Holy Spirit. In these Martial Arts, these people claim to be able to knock people over and so on. Are they really doing it or is it all-psychological? Are they manipulating a magical force or subconsciously hypnotizing their audience through suggestion? Something I recently saw on the History Channel suggests the latter. A chemist skeptical of the whole concept and its claim to science challenged one of these Marital Artists to knock him over. Guess what? He did not fall. If only you could have heard the lame excuse they came up with to justify his not falling!
Well, I've seen the false and I've seen the true. Again, even throughout the OT and the NT... we still see God moving powerfully in personal relationship... and towards Israel and the elect/chosen of God... in community.

I think it takes true "discernment"... and not everyone is well enough grounded in God's Word and in Christ by the Holy Spirit to truly have sound discernment.

As far as cultishness, I think the moment we move away from being centered in the truth of the power of the gospel of the cross of Jesus Christ... and away from truly Christ-centered community (into, especially, hierarchal control rather than equality)... the dangers you state, to me, are in evidence.

Even Israel wanted Saul, instead of God, to be their king. We seek, in fallenness, to worship the created rather than the Creator... and we must beware this tendency... and the tragedies that occur when we "willilngly" come under bondage to man in leadership or in a group. We must all lift up Jesus Christ... and we'll come into true Christian community. When Jesus is fully lifted up... all of the "tiered steps" by which we exalt the created... are brought square down to the cross... and all the ground is level at the cross to all the saints of God in Christ.

I personally will not rule out experiences... however, because God is not dead and relates to us in living terms... as He always has throughout the Bible, imo. (Can't throw out the baby with the bathwater... but need to beware of bathwater I"d agree.)


My point is, we should be as skeptical of “personal experience” within the community as we should be with experiences outside the community.
We should not be lead by someone else's experience... and no experience can be validated when it does not coincide with God and the Bible: God as He has revealed Himself in the Word... is my perspective.


With all that said, I do not think out of body experiences should be viewed as reflecting reality any more than Dante’s Inferno reflects the Biblical truths of sheol.
Sola scripture is the way to go for doctrinal formation... but God brings the Word alive in our experiences also... and, personally, I have to get so near God I'm in Heaven on earth...

:)



Your other statement about other views of the soul brings me to my text statement. I hope to think, and perhaps it is a naive hope, that Christianity was and is (or at least should be), along with Judaism, quite unique when compared with other religions. Too many, especially Plato, everything in this world was basically useless and temporal. Plato was dealing with a generation that was asking “Why die if I will live a shadowy existence in the next life?” He answered by saying: Hades is not to be feared but to be embraced; the human body is useless—it is a prison for your immortal soul that will live on forever. Of course elements come in to scare the audience as well: If you are bad, you will go to tartarus. Judaism from which Christianity emerged is quite different! To the early Jew, death was in fact the end. The here and now was important. This is why Solomon tells us to enjoy what we have while we have it. But over time the Israelites began to realize that people were dying off before they could see God’s covenantal promises fulfilled. Where was the justice? Many of the evil unrighteous pagans were living happy lives when many of the righteous Jews were dying under YHWH's nose. Through this, the hope arises that YHWH was so loving and powerful that not even death would have the final say over Israel, and that indeed there would be justice; and from this comes resurrection. What sets Judaism apart from these other religions is that the here and now is good; after all, God called his creation “very good.” If the here and now is good, why escape it? Rather, why not bring it back and renew it?
Hmmm.... profound meditations... really would enjoy hearing more...



My point is, the day we start thinking the world is so horrible we must escape it is the day we lose touch with our early roots. God’s Kingdom is on Earth. God reigns over us right now. The only thing better (and I speak as a man in very general terms) than what we have now is a renewed Earth free from evil and death.
Personally, I had to repent of this as a child. I wanted to go back to Heaven... because, quite frankly, this world... bleeps. :) And I kept asking God to take me home. :) Finally, He gave me to know... that He wasn't going to until He had determined... and I should stop thinking and feeling like that. So I did a "thinker" pose for a bit and thought, "Well, if I can't go to Heaven by leaving this body and this earth... I'm gonna bring Heaven down!" I really couldn't help but have that incredible desire. And so I began pull and to draw upon Heaven's glory... wrestling with all that was in me... to "break through" into Heaven's glory... and bring Heaven down.

I believe this is God's plan for the whole community.... that we hunger and thirst and desire Heaven so much... we bring His kingdom on earth.

:)


What it comes down to is whereas Plato envisions the dead fleeing their prison to some other place, the Christians see the prison coming back to the place Plato thought to be inferior, and being actually merged with the superior: from this we have the image of New Jerusalem descending to Earth.
I'm so sorry... cause I sense the contrast you are drawing has power... but I don't quite understand. Can you expand the paragraph? And define superior/inferior... and the contrast more?


I kind of went off on a rent and maybe I did not get anywhere, but perhaps Steven understands what I am trying to say.It was an awesome "rant". It was on-fire preaching... I'd say. :)

Personally, I cannot "stomache"... inequity in the body of Christ. I agree with you, really.

;)

God bless,

js

justsurfing
Sep 21st 2007, 06:19 AM
Greetings Laura,

It's very late, and I am very tired so for now I am going to be quite brief. Had you ever stopped to consider that after the cross the literal city, Jerusalem ceases to be the holy city (see Rev 21:2)? If that's true then those bodies of the saints coming out of their graves after His resurrection would not have been seen on earth, but in heaven. I believe this is a picture of all those OT saints who had died in faith without having received the promise, ascending spiritually into heaven after the cross. We can discuss this more later if you would like, but for now I really must say good night.

Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger :),

Appreciate your thoughts. I really was looking at "in the holy city Jerusalem"... and wondering. But it says they were seen by many. I'd love to hear more.

What... you're too tired to discuss Heaven?? lol

;)

I'm so excited about Heaven... been pondering on Heaven's glory... I lost track of time. (and I'm supposed to get my car looked at first thing in the am.... oh this earthly concerns. ;) )

Well, since I don't have a chariot of fire... just a supercharged GTP Grand Prix... I best get her... repaired. (I call her "my pony"... she's quick out of the gate.)

See ya in the later a.m.... or p.m.

Great interpretation. But can we deduce that they were seen on earth... then ascended??? Meaning they had... bodies??? I'm thinking they have some clearly definitive form and shape... substance and being. I don't want to deduce anything that is not in scripture... but is that something that can be deduced from scripture?

I have some real body questions.

:)

God bless,

js

Steven3
Sep 21st 2007, 10:01 AM
Hi Roger
There is no temple now, but I don't believe that all the prophecies about the city of the great king and the kingdom coming down to earth won't be fulfilled. The New Jerusalem comes down, not goes up.
Greetings Steven,

Tell me something, how many resurrections do you find in Scripture? I ask because Scripture indicates to me there is more than one.

Generally I try to avoid making any use of Revelation (or at least the visions after Ch3) that isn't well supported by more literal NT verses.

Do I believe that there are 2 resurrections? Only from the point of view that when Christ comes back it would seem unjust to annihilate the world's children (or even adults who have barely or never heard of Christ), therefore there would appear to be a logic in there being a period between 1Co15:23 and 15:24, and it may be that there is a transformation/resurrection event at both ends of this period. That is one possible reading of "then comes the end" in the following:

1Co15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end (ειτα το τελος), when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

But the issue here isn't so much whether there are resurrections at both ends of the "1000 years", or not, the issue is how Abel etc. got into heaven before Christ died for their sins.

Christ says no one has gone into heaven (John 3:13). Why? Because the wages of sin are death, not automatical/inborn immortality. Only God has immortality (1Tim 6:16), then Jesus of course.

Cheers :)
S.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Hi Laura :)
I'm so excited about Heaven... been pondering on Heaven's glory... I lost track of time. (and I'm supposed to get my car looked at first thing in the am.... oh this earthly concerns. ;) )Me too! But I'm excited about it coming down, not me going up. Hope you car gets fixed okay ;)

God bless
Steven

RogerW
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:16 AM
Hi Roger
There is no temple now, but I don't believe that all the prophecies about the city of the great king and the kingdom coming down to earth won't be fulfilled. The New Jerusalem comes down, not goes up.


Greetings Steven,

There is a temple NOW! Believers are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The holy city, new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven is likened unto a bride adorned for her husband. This is a picture of saints (Church) who are reigning with the Lord. New Jerusalem, the holy city is the bride of Christ, and she is descending out of heaven from God, having already been adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:2 And I perceived the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having been made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9 And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came and talks with me, saying, “Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin.”




Do I believe that there are 2 resurrections? Only from the point of view that when Christ comes back it would seem unjust to annihilate the world's children (or even adults who have barely or never heard of Christ), therefore there would appear to be a logic in there being a period between 1Co15:23 and 15:24, and it may be that there is a transformation/resurrection event at both ends of this period. That is one possible reading of "then comes the end" in the following:

1Co15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end (ειτα το τελος), when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.


Christ tells us that the kingdom of God is within us. Yet He says the kingdom is not of this world, or rather does not come from this world. It makes no sense to say we (believers) are the temple, and the kingdom of God is within unless Christ is speaking of a spiritual kingdom. His kingdom begins in this world, but it is not of this world. When we are the temple, and God is dwelling in us we are alive spiritually, our spirits are made perfect through Him, and never die.

Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
According to 1 Co 15 Christ is the first among many brethren to be resurrected from the dead. All who are born of flesh (in Adam; all mankind) will physically die. We who belong to Christ, who have physically died, and are in His presence spiritually will be resurrected bodily first, and then all who remain physically alive at His coming are bodily resurrected with them to meet the Lord at His coming. Those who are made alive in Christ through the indwelling Spirit are in the presence of Christ from the moment we are resurrected to spiritual life, then at the consummation, or in the fullness of time there will be a bodily resurrection when Christ presents the kingdom to God.

CV 1 Co 15:23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation,
1Co 15:24 whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to God, even the Father, whenever He should be abrogating all sovereignty and all authority and power.

1Th 4:16,17 seeing that the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with the shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, for meeting the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:13-15 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing (dying), lest you may be sorrowed according as others also who have no expectation. For if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose (those who have died in Christ), will God, through Jesus, lead forth with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving unto the presence of the Lord, shall by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,

Considering these passages it seems Scripture speaks of three resurrections (1) Christ, the First fruit (2) spiritual resurrection we receive at salvation (3) bodily resurrection in the fullness of time.




But the issue here isn't so much whether there are resurrections at both ends of the "1000 years", or not, the issue is how Abel etc. got into heaven before Christ died for their sins.

Christ says no one has gone into heaven (John 3:13). Why? Because the wages of sin are death, not automatical/inborn immortality. Only God has immortality (1Tim 6:16), then Jesus of course.


I’ll say it once again, no one dying prior to the cross went immediately to heaven. None could go to heaven before Christ went there to prepare a place for His own. The thousand years is symbolic language referring to the fullness of TIME. When Christ said no one has gone into heaven (Jo 3:13) He was speaking prior to the cross. Until Christ literally went to the cross and was resurrected to life, ascended unto heaven to prepare a place (Jo 14:2,3) for His own, no man had gone into heaven.


1Ti 6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived or can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!

Angels are immortal, and so are the soul/spirit of men, but they have their immortality from God. Only God has immortality of Himself. And our mortal bodies put on immortality, and incorruption through Him (1Co 15:53,54).

Blessings,
RW

justsurfing
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:03 AM
[quote=Steven3;1388604]Hi Roger
There is no temple now, but I don't believe that all the prophecies about the city of the great king and the kingdom coming down to earth won't be fulfilled. The New Jerusalem comes down, not goes up.


I see it like this: We are Jerusalem. We are Zion. Jerusalem is our mother... we are children of Zion. The new Jerusalem already came down... and gave us new birth in Christ in spirit and in truth.

The city is not just a city that waits until the end to come down... but is the city of our new birth in Christ. Because we are born of God... the New Jerusalem has come down already spiritually and is the mother of us all in Christ. She comes down as a bride prepared for her Husband... and we are the bride of Christ.

We do not "go up" in advance of New Jerusalem coming down. As I see it, New Jerusalem comes down and we are birthed spiritually as children of Zion. We don't really "go up"... at death... as if we have not already "gone up" into Heaven. We have already in spirit and in truth.

When our bodies die... our "connection" to this world is "interrupted"... to be sure. But we are still in "New Jerusalem" spiritually. When all are resurrected... New Jerusalem can manifest tangibly... at a new dimension.

Matthew 5:13-15 (King James Version)


13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Isaiah 66:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=66&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Romans 9:7-9 (King James Version)

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.



Galatians 4: 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Do I believe that there are 2 resurrections? Only from the point of view that when Christ comes back it would seem unjust to annihilate the world's children (or even adults who have barely or never heard of Christ),None of those who died in sin when Jesus comes ever really "heard" the gospel with their hearts. Hearing they did not hear. Seeing they did not see. The gospel may have entered their psyche... but it never truly entered their hearts by the Spirit. None of them heard with their hearts... for if they had... they would all have been saved having believed with their hearts. This is what I believe the Bible teaches.


Therefore there would appear to be a logic in there being a period between 1Co15:23 and 15:24, and it may be that there is a transformation/resurrection event at both ends of this period. That is one possible reading of "then comes the end" in the following:

1Co15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end (ειτα το τελος), when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
This scripture, and position you hold (in part, at least), is why I believe the sinful nature is "annihilated" and at the very end all experience spiritual resurrection in Christ. All those who did not hear the gospel during their lives are given "hearing ears" at the very end. They are re-created anew in Christ. They hear the gospel with their hearts, believe, and are saved. This scripture is one reason why I am now a universalist (because my understanding states that hell and punishment are not eternal... and all evil - all sinful natures - are annihiliated. Therefore, I am an annihilist. But I do not stop there. I see the resurrection you see at the very end... making me believing that annihilation of evil is followed by universal salvation of all.



But the issue here isn't so much whether there are resurrections at both ends of the "1000 years", or not, the issue is how Abel etc. got into heaven before Christ died for their sins.
Or really "Abraham's bosom"... not Heaven under the OT?


Christ says no one has gone into heaven (John 3:13). Why? Because the wages of sin are death, not automatical/inborn immortality. Only God has immortality (1Tim 6:16), then Jesus of course.
I believe this scripture is asserting that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Because we are in Christ, we are seated with Christ right now in Heavenly places. When body (on earth) separates from spirit (in Heaven)... the spirit remains in Heaven... and all "soul ties" to earth of Chrisitans are separated... from my perspective. (I really want to tr to understand what happens to unbelievers... systematically through scripture... especially going into NT scriptures... and prophetic scriptures from the OT.)

John 3:13 (King James Version)

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:5-7 (New International Version)

5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



[quote] Hi Laura :) Me too! But I'm excited about it coming down, not me going up. Hope you car gets fixed okay ;)I'm excited about it coming down too!... and I haven't yet seen the "big picture" of your paradigm. Maybe bits and pieces... so far. I think I may grasp part of your conceptual framework... that you see fleshly body/spirit inexorably linked in Christians... declaring that a new body must first be "taken on" before the spirit can be "awake" after death of the first body from earth.

Relative my car, the noise is gone! (just a wheel bearing... nothing in my transmission, thankfully.) I used to compete in speedracing in rodeos... as a child/teen. I still love... acceleration. :) I once had a car that had an engine rebuilt as a racing engine. lol Would throw you right back in the seat when I hit the gas. Gotta love it. Also, it was such a great feeling when that horse... in the speedracing rodeos... would just... take off.

No horse today. Just... horsepower. :)

Car's runnin' good. :)

And looking forward to my Hero... returning riding a white steed. (We all see that coming, I'm hoping. ;) )

I think I'm gonna be riding a horse coming with Him! (we'll leave that open... )

God bless,

js

Steven3
Sep 22nd 2007, 08:38 AM
Hi Laura
Glad your car is running better now ;)

John 3:13 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:5-7 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Looking at NT the difference between "heaven" and "the heavenlies" (which could mean heavenly places, or heavenly things) is that one is literal, where Jesus is and where Jesus says no one has gone, and the other is figurative :)
God bless!
S. :)

justsurfing
Sep 22nd 2007, 04:00 PM
Hi Laura
Glad your car is running better now ;)
[/color]
Looking at NT the difference between "heaven" and "the heavenlies" (which could mean heavenly places, or heavenly things) is that one is literal, where Jesus is and where Jesus says no one has gone, and the other is figurative :)
God bless!
S. :)

Hi Steve :),

Is Jesus "literally"... or "figuratively"... seated in Heaven right now?

I believe the "literal" and "figurative" of which you speak... converge in Christ... right now.

And that's where Christians are... in Him... right now.

:)

Love in Christ,

js

justsurfing
Sep 22nd 2007, 04:20 PM
Acts 17:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=17&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Galatians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 5:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.In believers, the "literal" and the "figurative" converge, imo. It is no longer us living but Christ living in us. The life we live in the flesh... we do not live by the life of the flesh, but rather by the "figurative" means that are "literal" in Christ: by faith (spiritually living faith) in the Son of God. It is in God we live and move (bodies are not "primary" as "literal"... God is "primary").

Whether we wake or sleep (bodily)... we still live together with Him.

Our "lives" do not depend upon this body (as Christians)... but rather the life we life in the body we live together with Him. That "togetherness" and "primary source" of life... never changes once we believe. The body dies (sleeps)... but whether the body lives or dies... sleeps or wakes... we live together with Him.

However, these spiritual realities are not true of unbelievers who die. I would like to discuss sinners who die apart from Christ since His resurrection... when Jesus took the keys of death and sheol. Has God, in His "foreseen" mercy, decided to allow them to "rest" until they are raised in the resurrection of the dead?

If they are "alert"... they remain tormented not by God, in a way, but rather their own separation from Him and their own "spiritual union" with... Satan. Fear hath torment... etc.

God bless, :)

js

RogerW
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:09 PM
However, these spiritual realities are not true of unbelievers who die. I would like to discuss sinners who die apart from Christ since His resurrection... when Jesus took the keys of death and sheol. Has God, in His "foreseen" mercy, decided to allow them to "rest" until they are raised in the resurrection of the dead?

If they are "alert"... they remain tormented not by God, in a way, but rather their own separation from Him and their own "spiritual union" with... Satan. Fear hath torment... etc.

God bless, :)

js

Greetings Laura,

I know that you have been convinced that eternal life awaits even the unjust, but Scripture simply will not support that opinion.

The Scriptures teach that there will be a resurrection of the unjust/unbelieving/unsaved. But they shall be raised, not to be glorified with Christ, but to be judged by Him, and sentenced to eternal punishment, irregardless of your misunderstanding aionios [eternal] life/death.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Blessings,
RW

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:11 AM
Hi Laura :)
Difficult I know to sift through what is literal and figurative in the NT, but in this case the context of each of these verses still shows these people need to be given "immortality" (1Co15) to be immortal:
Acts 17:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=17&verse=28&version=9&context=verse) For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.When Paul said this the Athenians were alive :). This is Paul talking to pagan Greeks, quoting Epimenedes, trying to establish a relationship between them and the God of Israel. It doesn't mean that the Athenians or Epimenedes are already immortal or go to heaven or when they die.
Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Again when Paul wrote this he was alive :). Yes, this is Paul talking about new life, in Christ (as well as simultaneously still being in Adam), but it does not say that Paul cannot "die", nor "sleep", nor that Paul expects his "soul" to go direct to heaven when he dies.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.Whether we "wake" or "sleep" isn't literal getting up from bed, this means dead (= dead) or alive (= alive) when Christ returns. - as in 1Thess4 the previous chapter. Paul doesn't say he will be alive even without/before Christ returning. :)

The thing is if we have the idea that man is immortal we'll find verses that seem to support it. But the problem is the logic - why would God reward sin with automatic immortality? Bible says that the wages of sin are death, not heaven, the Bible says that only God has immortality, and Jesus says that no one has gone to heaven.

Gen 3:3 if you sin you will die
Gen 3:19 dust you are to dust you will return

God bless
Steven :)

NightWatchman
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:15 AM
Check out Ecclesiastes 12:7. It's a very cool gem in Scripture:

"And the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.":spin:

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:23 AM
Hi again L, I'm answering posts backwards :)
Hi Steve :),

Is Jesus "literally"... or "figuratively"... seated in Heaven right now?
Literally, the Lord Jesus is seated on the right hand of God, since the disciples saw him go up and the angels said he'd come down in like manner. :)
Figuratively, he's with us now - he came down and established his "mansion" (John 14:23 Greek) here in the church. The "heavenlies (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2032)" Paul talks of in Eph 2:6 are not literal "heaven". Neither you nor I nor any of the members of this board are literally seated in literal heaven, where Christ sits on God's right hand, right now.

And that's where Christians are... in Him... right now.

:)

Love in Christ,

jsFiguratively, he's with us on earth; he came down and established his "mansion" (John 14:23 Greek) here in the church.
Literally, he's in heaven, we're here, and he comes back. The Bible says that our "inheritance" is with him, our "reward" is with him, our "citizenship" is with him, but it never says that either living Christians, or dead Christians (or dead believers from the OT) are with him in heaven. He has to return and first raise those that sleep, so that he can bring them with him when he comes.

Ask yourself, if the dead go direct to heaven, why was Jesus nailed to a cross? Why did he ascend? Why did he say he'd return? Why bother with resurrection of the body?

We can all believe what we want, but you asked for evidence that the dead sleep, and I posted 50 or so of the the hundreds of possible verses all based on the Bible teaching that:

Psalm 6:5 the dead cannot praise the Lord
etc.

What can I tell you, in the Bible death is real. Otherwise we wouldn't need a real solution - the sacrifice of Christ.
God be with you :) :)
Steven

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:28 AM
Hi NightWatchman :)
Check out Ecclesiastes 12:7. It's a very cool gem in Scripture:

"And the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.":spin:It is indeed, always happy to see Ecclesiastes quoted as so many these days avoid the book because of 9:5 and 9:10 being so blunt.

Yes, the "breath" goes back to God, we can't hold on to it, we go back to dust. Since, as Ecclesiastes 8:8 shows, a dying man cannot hold onto the coat tails of his "spirit" (ruakh (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H07307&Version=kjv), breath, wind) when God - who sent it from his "nostrils" recalls it, and then makes the next generation Ecc 11:5, Psalm 104:29-30.

Our "breath" is on loan. It's not ours to keep.
God bless
Steven

NightWatchman
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:35 AM
In Ecc 3:11, God has set eternity in the hearts of men.
I don't believe God would do this only to take it back, for God cannot lie.

NightWatchman
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:40 AM
Also, Moses died, and he was on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus before Jesus died at Golgotha and rose from death.

NightWatchman
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:47 AM
Jesus says in John ch. 10 that He gives eternal life. This means neverending.

I'm about done in this thread, but I'll tell you what:

If I'm wrong, I'll still meet you in heaven.:pp
If you're wrong, you'll still meet me in heaven.:bounce:

If we're both wrong, we'll still chill together.:D:spin:

Amen.

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:51 AM
Hi Nightwatchman :)
God can't lie, but translators can. I know, I am one. ;) In Ecc 3:11 what version are you using? The KJV, and Hebrew, say "set the world (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05769&Version=kjv)in their heart". Only God has immortality (1 Tim 6:16)

Jesus told the disciples it was a vision (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3705&Version=kjv) the saw on the mountain. It would have to be, Moses "rests" with his fathers according to God in Deuteronomy, and Jesus says "no one has gone up to heaven" (John 3:13).

In John 10 Jesus does give eternal life - see John 5:27-29.


If I'm wrong, I'll still meet you in heaven.:pp
If you're wrong, you'll still meet me in heaven.:bounce:

If we're both wrong, we'll still chill together.:D:spin:

Amen.

Thanks, but I hope and pray that I'll never go to heaven. Not for me thanks ;). According to the Bible we'll be either transformed or raised when Christ returns (see 1Co15:23)
God bless
Steven

enarchay
Sep 23rd 2007, 10:58 AM
Hi Nightwatchman :)
God can't lie, but translators can. I know, I am one. ;) In Ecc 3:11 what version are you using? The KJV, and Hebrew, say "set the world (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05769&Version=kjv)in their heart". Only God has immortality (1 Tim 6:16)

Olam is used in that verse, "age." In the LXX, aion is used, "age." This reminds me of the Greek Homeric tradition of aion as the length of the life of man. I'm not exactly sure what Solomon meant. Rotherham and Young translate it "intelligence" and "knowledge." Don't ask me why.

justsurfing
Sep 23rd 2007, 02:20 PM
Steve and enarchay, :),

You're right! Hallelujah! I believe I am seeing what my heart desired to see!

The body is not evil! The body is neutral as revealed by 2 witnesses: Jesus Christ taking human form, and Adam before sin!

Therefore, when unbelievers are cast alive into the lake of fire... their bodies are not destroyed in the purification of annihilation... which annihilates only... evil.

This is the how, why, whatfore... of how they are born again from above... as a seed that falls into the ground and dies... and rises in unending life.

Their bodies, being alive... draw upon the "grace of God"... and their new spirits enter in the "twinkling of an eye" as the old spirit/soul is destroyed... and their bodies... in the same "twinkling of an eye" are changed... as death is swallowed up in victory!

Oh death where is thy sting?
Grave, where is thy victory?

Also, remember when I was asking about the correlation, the "seamless" "connection" between "death and Hades" in the keys, etc.... Death riding the horse with hell following?

When death is destroyed... Hades is destroyed...

Ultimate reconciliation is revealed at another level... through the study of "soul sleep" on this thread.

I have greater revelation!!! Hallelujah!

Reaching 100%... hallelujah!!!

I see one aspect of what the Lord desired to reveal to me regarding the states of man!!!

:)

Thank you, Steve!!! In the ? on Adam... and on this thread... for repeatedly asserting the neutrality of the body... thus proving God would be unjust to destroy the body... when sin is destroyed from the body... sin being metaphysical... the body being physical.

;)

Please, everyone, give me your thoughts.... bouncing off you... but believe I've received "revy" (revelation that revs my "horsepower" in the Lord!)... directly from the Holy Spirit though through the ponderings of your comments.

Thank you so much!

Love in Christ,

js

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2007, 02:26 PM
Hi Laura :)
Steve and enarchay, :),

You're right! Hallelujah! I believe I am seeing what my heart desired to see!Ha, that's a dangerous thing ;)

The body is not evil! The body is neutral as revealed by 2 witnesses: Jesus Christ taking human form, and Adam before sin!Yep, hence "first Adam" "second Adam".

I don't share the next idea, universalism --- but than can wait till next year maybe :D, but on soul death/rest/resurrection we've reached a good understanding.
You take care
God bless :)
Steven

NightWatchman
Sep 24th 2007, 05:46 AM
Hi Nightwatchman :)
God can't lie, but translators can. I know, I am one. ;) In Ecc 3:11 what version are you using? The KJV, and Hebrew, say "set the world (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05769&Version=kjv)in their heart". Only God has immortality (1 Tim 6:16)

Jesus told the disciples it was a vision (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3705&Version=kjv) the saw on the mountain. It would have to be, Moses "rests" with his fathers according to God in Deuteronomy, and Jesus says "no one has gone up to heaven" (John 3:13).

In John 10 Jesus does give eternal life - see John 5:27-29.



Thanks, but I hope and pray that I'll never go to heaven. Not for me thanks ;). According to the Bible we'll be either transformed or raised when Christ returns (see 1Co15:23)
God bless
Steven

Since you like to quote Hebrew and the KJV, I took your challenge and looked up "world" in the Strong's Concordance for Ecc 3:11. Check out that extensive explanation, with words such as "eternity" and "everlasting." God alone does have eternal life, but He gives it to us.


Regarding what they saw on the mountain, Jesus didn't say it was a vision in any of the three N.T. accounts of the event.


The Bible does say that God will create a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness,
and the Bible also says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Regarding your not wanting to go to Heaven, Check out 2 Corinthians ch. 5.:hmm:

Steven3
Sep 24th 2007, 09:42 AM
Hi NightWatchman :)
Since you like to quote Hebrew and the KJV, I took your challenge and looked up "world" in the Strong's Concordance for Ecc 3:11. Check out that extensive explanation, with words such as "eternity" and "everlasting."That does not mean "immortal life".
God alone does have eternal life, but He gives it to us.Where? Verse please - I think you'll find it is "will give", future tense, not "gave" past tense, not "gave at birth".

Regarding what they saw on the mountain, Jesus didn't say it was a vision in any of the three N.T. accounts of the event.I noted this in the parallel thread - Greek Matt 17:9.


the home of righteousness,
and the Bible also says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Regarding your not wanting to go to Heaven, Check out 2 Corinthians ch. 5.:hmm:It's about resurrection not heaven-going, hence Paul not wanting to be bodiless - Paul's hardly likely going to contradict 1Co15 to the same church. Please see thread on 2 Co 5 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100394&highlight=absent+body) .
God bless
Steven :)

NightWatchman
Sep 24th 2007, 12:52 PM
Greetings Steven3.

If "eternal life" isn't immortal, it's not worth my time.

God gives eternal life when Christ is received as Savior.
Prior to Christ, the righteous lived by faith, for there is none righteous, not even one.

If Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus, that's what I saw, unless it's a false Christ.

Whether jor not you believe as I do, I will be with the Lord forever.

enarchay
Sep 24th 2007, 01:03 PM
I don't see why people are getting their underwear in a twist over a few ambiguous and debatable passages when there is an entire belief system that was adhered to for hundred of years presented in the Old Covenant texts.

I honestly don't care what you believe happens after death, but what is important is you realize Christianity was and should be much different than what Plato and the various religions he influenced (e.g. Gnosticism) believed. In most pagan religions, the body is useless, but in Christianity, it is desired. I think this is one of the main reasons why Steven3 and I favor a so-called "soul sleep" doctrine over what is commonly taught, because it adds to the significance of the resurrection.

As N.T. Wright has said: "Heaven is important but it's not the end of the world" ("Neither is The Final Destination (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/nicholas_t_wright/2007/06/neither_is_the_final_destinati.html)"). That is, the New Testament authors were much more concerned with bodies and resurrection; so should we.

Steven3
Sep 24th 2007, 06:33 PM
Hi NW :)
If "eternal life" isn't immortal, it's not worth my time.Surely if you're not already born immortal it ought to be doubly worth your time to acquire immortality. ;)

Man is "mortal" Job 4:17 Rom 1:23, because we sin so we perish, cease to be etc.



Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleepin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will (future) give eternal life;

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

2 Corinthians 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

1 Timothy 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.




God gives eternal life when Christ is received as Savior.That's not the usual interpretation. Normally people say you're either born with an immortal soul (Platonism, RC church) or you're given immortality when Christ comes to raise the dead. No one "puts on immortality", as Paul calls it, simply by believing in Jesus. If that was the case the living wouldn't die, and the dead would not "sleep", and there'd be no need for Christ to return. There'd be no Luke 18:30 "who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” because people wouldn't have to wait for the age to come.


If Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus, that's what I saw, unless it's a false Christ.You saw? :D That's a typo?? You mean that's what Peter James and John saw. How do you know that when they saw "the kingdom" the kingdom wasn't future? How can you be 100% absolutely certain that it couldn't possibly have been a window into the future "and in the age to come eternal life" (like many visions in the Bible). And even if you are certain, does that therefore make all the verses that say that the dead "sleep" disappear?

Why is Christ coming to raise the dead if the dead are not dead? John John 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
God bless :)
Steven

NightWatchman
Sep 24th 2007, 10:33 PM
Hi NW :)Surely if you're not already born immortal it ought to be doubly worth your time to acquire immortality. ;)

Man is "mortal" Job 4:17 Rom 1:23, because we sin so we perish, cease to be etc.

Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will (future) give eternal life;

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There'd be no Luke 18:30 "who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” because people wouldn't have to wait for the age to come.
Good point. I can't be born immortal.
That's what I said previously, that GOD GIVES EVERLASTING LIFE.
I also agree that there are great events in the future.

My Quote:
"If Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus, that's what I saw, unless it's a false Christ."

Your response: "You saw? :D That's a typo?? You mean that's what Peter James and John saw."
Yes, but what I meant is what I saw in the Bible--that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. If that's what it said, it's true.


How do you know that when they saw "the kingdom" the kingdom wasn't future?
How do you know it was?


How can you be 100% absolutely certain that it couldn't possibly have been a window into the future "and in the age to come eternal life" (like many visions in the Bible).
I can't, and neither can you be certain.


And even if you are certain, does that therefore make all the verses that say that the dead "sleep" disappear?
Are you certain?

Why is Christ coming to raise the dead if the dead are not dead?
I know that the dead bodies are dead.
Why does Paul say to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord? If I'm present with anyone, it means I'm fully aware of my surroundings My spirit and soul don't die.


But the deal is, not a single soul that dies stays in the grave.
God's children will receive glorified, resurrected, immortal bodies and will be with the Lord forever......

While the wicked (Jesus calls their father the devil) will forever be cast out of the Lord's presence and weep, gnash their teeth, have a worm in them that doesn't die, and there will be a fire that will not be quenched.

Steven3
Sep 25th 2007, 09:24 AM
Hi NW :)
Good point. I can't be born immortal. That's what I said previously, that GOD GIVES EVERLASTING LIFE. I also agree that there are great events in the future.Goodo :) Now all we need is to put those two beliefs together with what Paul says about "then" "when" "this mortal will put on immortality" etc.

How do you know that when they saw "the kingdom" the kingdom wasn't future?How do you know it was?I don't, it's a "vision", how can anyone know for certain, but it appears likely since Christ told them:

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

If it is the kingdom after it has come with power, then it is the kingdom of 2 Tim 4:1 "at his appearing and his kingdom".

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Although "the kingdom" does have present tense uses in the NT, relating to the kingdom "suffering violence" and so on, "after it has come with power" refers to the future. Therefore in Mark 9:1 Jesus told them that they were going to see the future "kingdom", consistently with how the word "kingdom" is used with future tense verbs in the rest of the NT.

+ plus the small fact that Hebrews 11, written long after Mark 9, says Moses and the prophets were still dead and still had "not received what they were promised" (Heb.11:39-40). ;)



Why is Christ coming to raise the dead if the dead are not dead? I know that the dead bodies are dead.The Bible never says "dead bodies are dead", it says "you will return to dust" "you will die" "they died" "their souls died" "the soul that sinneth will die".


Why does Paul say to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord? If I'm present with anyone, it means I'm fully aware of my surroundings My spirit and soul don't die.When that happens yes, but Paul doesn't say "to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord?" I know this is how people remember the verse, and this paraphrase of what Paul said is so popular that what he actually said can hardly stand up against it. But what Paul actually said was this:

5:6 We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

5:6 is not the same thing as how people quote the verse. While I am in France I am away from UK, but that doesn't mean to be away from the UK is automatically to be France. There are other countries - I might be in Germany, likewise "living on earth" and "immortal in heaven" are not the only two states of mankind - "asleep in Sheol" is the other, third option with 100s of Bible verses behind it.

5:8 is also not the same thing - "and"does not require "immediately" as the context shows: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
5:1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our house from heaven (εξ ουρανου), 3 if indeed by putting it on [1] we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


5:8 to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You'll find that "from heaven" (εξ ουρανου) has been changed to "heavenly" in some modern versions (the untrustworthy NIV as usual) because it suggests (heresy!) that Paul's hope was resurrection (see Acts 23:6, 24:15). They had to change it because "from heaven" shows Paul was waiting for Christ to come before he could be clothed with a body like unto Christ's glorious body. In short they've taken a resurrection verse and tinkered with it to make it look as though Paul goes to heaven, not Paul waits for his imperishable to clothe him from heaven.

Philippians 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.


But the deal is, not a single soul that dies stays in the grave.
God's children will receive glorified, resurrected, immortal bodies and will be with the Lord forever......"When he comes" means when he comes. Otherwise when Christ finally does come he cannot give what they already.
While the wicked (Jesus calls their father the devil) will forever be cast out of the Lord's presence and weep, gnash their teeth, have a worm in them that doesn't die, and there will be a fire that will not be quenched.When he comes ;) please see Isaiah 66:24 and context quoted in Mark 9:45-49
God bless
Steven

enarchay
Sep 25th 2007, 09:50 AM
I'm having trouble keeping up with all the posts :help:

Steven3
Sep 25th 2007, 09:55 AM
I'm having trouble keeping up with all the posts too. Perhaps as these exception verses (Moses and Elijah, Samuel's ghost etc) are mainly old chestnuts it would be better to just link to existing threads rather than rehash them. We're missing the wood for the trees.

NightWatchman
Sep 25th 2007, 08:41 PM
Steven3:

The children of the King will be with the Lord forever. It's a mystery, just as Paul said. :D:hmm:

If God gives eternal life to me while I live (the ressurection is a future event but I have the promise of the Holy Spirit), then my soul and spirit cannot die. How can I 'sleep' in Sheol if I'm dead?


You say:
Paul doesn't say "to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord?" I know this is how people remember the verse, and this paraphrase of what Paul said is so popular that what he actually said can hardly stand up against it. But what Paul actually said was this:

5:6 We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This is very sensible. However, I don't believe you have to have an English Major to understand the Bible. Paul indeed mentions resurrection often (as does David), but I don't see Paul talking about dying and becoming dust in these verses. I see him talking about the hope of everlasting, immortal life in a new heaven and a new earth (which are discussed elsewhere.) Why talk about Heaven if I'm shut out of it? (If you want to skip it, that's your gig.)

You also said that "heavenly dwelling" is heresy(?) while "dwelling from heaven" is not. My understanding of words is such that receiving something "from" a place can mean that I can also go there. After all, with God all things are possible.

You also said:
"Living on earth" and "immortal in heaven" are not the only two states of mankind - "asleep in Sheol" is the other, third option with 100s of Bible verses behind it.

You can't 'sleep' in Sheol unless your soul is alive.
That is definitely true.


Good resurrection context in your last post.;)

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 09:42 AM
Hi NW :)
Thanks for being a good sport and nice in your replies.:)
The children of the King will be with the Lord forever. It's a mystery, just as Paul said. :D:hmm:I wouldn't question that the sons of the kingdom will be with the Lord forever, but death is by no means a mystery. It wasn't a mystery when God first told Adam and Eve about death Gen3:3,19 and isn't in any of the 65 books that follow. Christianity is not a mystery religion, the mysteries are revealed:

Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

Colossians 1:26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.



If God gives eternal life to me while I live (the ressurection is a future event but I have the promise of the Holy Spirit), then my soul and spirit cannot die. How can I 'sleep' in Sheol if I'm dead?Well, it is figurative. As Jesus explained about Jairus' daughter and Simon Lazarus of Bethany:

Luke 8:52 And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.”

John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep.

If they can "sleep" and be dead, so can you and I. The fact that we might have difficulty with the concept doesn't make any odds to God. Jairus' daughter and Lazarus (had they been alive to hear it) probably would also have had difficulty understanding Jesus' words - but it still happened, they still died, "slept", and were raised. Jesus didn't pull Jairus' daughter or Lazarus back down from any staircase to heaven.



You say:
Paul doesn't say "to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord?" I know this is how people remember the verse, and this paraphrase of what Paul said is so popular that what he actually said can hardly stand up against it. But what Paul actually said was this:

5:6 We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.This is very sensible. However, I don't believe you have to have an English Major to understand the Bible. To understand the 1611 version you do :). Okay I'm a bit of a snob about grammar, I admit it, but teaching of English in the UK and US has gone to the other extreme in the last 30 years - these days it seems that grammar is no longer taught at all before University. Back in the Victorian era children were taught basic grammar before 11, which featured in the institution of English grammar as part of the "11 Plus exam" in 1944 until the 1970s when grammar fell out of favour.. (whinge whinge whinge whinge).

Anyway, as you can see, 2Co5:6 and 5:8 don't say what people want them to say -- how could they when Paul demanded resurrection in his previous letter to Corinth...


Paul indeed mentions resurrection often (as does David), but I don't see Paul talking about dying and becoming dust in these verses. I see him talking about the hope of everlasting, immortal life in a new heaven and a new earth (which are discussed elsewhere.) Why talk about Heaven if I'm shut out of it? (If you want to skip it, that's your gig.)"in"? (my red) Where does Paul say "in" heaven?But that's the point: the Bible doesn't talk about going to heaven. :) The new heaven, which Peter talks about, comes, "from heaven".

The reason you're shut out of heaven is that you're a human, and like the rest of us, not sinless. You have no business up there. There are 23214 verses in the Bible. If we were meant to go to heaven then once somewhere in those 23214 verses God would have told us.

Ps115:16 The heavens are the Lord's heavens,
but the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.


You also said that "heavenly dwelling" is heresy(?) while "dwelling from heaven" is not. No, what I said was that the NIV translation committe (the IBS CBT (http://www.tniv.info/story/cbtmembers.php)) may have considered that Paul's "from heaven" was heresy so the NIV substituted "heavenly" to make Paul fit with their own beliefs. Sorry, I don't have much respect for the integrity or technical competence of this particular translation. :)


My understanding of words is such that receiving something "from" a place can mean that I can also go there. After all, with God all things are possible
.When you get a package "from Canada" do you go there to get it? As to "all things are possible" that refers to miracles not God contradicting himself. The Bible teaches that several things are not possible with God - "impossible to lie" (Heb6:8), cannot be given counsel as a man (Rom 11:34), "cannot be tempted" (James 1), and cannot die (1Tim 6:16) among them (you probably can guess the verse refs I'm thinking of ;)).


You also said:
"Living on earth" and "immortal in heaven" are not the only two states of mankind - "asleep in Sheol" is the other, third option with 100s of Bible verses behind it.You can't 'sleep' in Sheol unless your soul is alive. That is definitely true.Is it? ;) So was Jairus' daughter's "soul" alive when her soul died?


Good resurrection context in your last post.;)Thanks! :D Nice of you to say so. I hope you realise that my belief in resurrection rather than heaven going is only because it is what the vast majority of Bible verses clearly teach - and even the exceptions don't really teach heavengoing. But the other issue is that eternal life on a cloud looking down on third world famine is the last thing any of us really want, is it?
God bless
Steven

NightWatchman
Sep 26th 2007, 09:51 AM
Good stuff Steven3.

We will have access to Heaven in the future after the resurrection.
We will have no more sin.

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 10:09 AM
Hiyo NW :)
Good stuff Steven3.It is so nice to discuss with you, a real pleasure :)
We will have access to Heaven in the future after the resurrection.
We will have no more sin.

For sure, after Christ wakes and raises the dead we'll certainly have no more sin, nor even be tempted to sin:

Ro 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

But whether Christ will give us permission to leave earth and go and have a look round heaven I have no idea. Seeing as it seems many Christians will be rather disappointed with Christ to find themselves resurrected on a restored earth rather than going to heaven perhaps Christ will let them go have a look and satisfy their curiosity. :spin:
Steven

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 10:11 AM
Seeing as it seems many Christians will be rather disappointed with Christ to find themselves resurrected on a restored earth rather than going to heaven perhaps Christ will let them go have a look and satisfy their curiosity. :spin:Not exactly. After the final judgment, Heaven is merged with Earth (New Jerusalem descending to Earth); this is why God dwells "all in all."

The difference between what is traditionally taught and what the Scriptures actually say is that Heaven comes to Earth, rather than Earth going to Heaven.

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 10:43 AM
Not exactly. After the final judgment, Heaven is merged with Earth (New Jerusalem descending to Earth); this is why God dwells "all in all."

Forgive me - an attempt at humour ;) though in all seriousness, don't you think a lot of Christians will feel cheated to find they've been asleep for centuries? ... though having said that Queen Elizabeth 1st (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101068&highlight=elizabeth) wouldn't mind.


The difference between what is traditionally taught and what the Scriptures actually say is that Heaven comes to Earth, rather than Earth going to Heaven.

Yes. Hence the "Kingdom of Heaven", not "in heaven". :)
All good!
S.

NightWatchman
Sep 26th 2007, 11:28 PM
Hiyo NW :)It is so nice to discuss with you, a real pleasure :)
Whether Christ will give us permission to leave earth and go and have a look round heaven I have no idea. Seeing as it seems many Christians will be rather disappointed with Christ to find themselves resurrected on a restored earth rather than going to heaven perhaps Christ will let them go have a look and satisfy their curiosity. :spin:
Steven

I became aware of most of this while skimming through Randy Alcorn's book Heaven. He says that we were created to live on the earth.:idea:

Talking to you has been pleasant because, like you, I don't want to sit on a cloud somewhere. How dull!
And why would there be "a new earth"?:hmm:


Additionally, what will the new earth be like?.........:spin: