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justsurfing
Sep 15th 2007, 04:50 PM
This brings up a point. By no means do I believe that Mary was sinless. Jesus Christ was conceived in the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit coming upon her, the power of the Most High overshadowing her, so that the holy one to be born in her was called "Jesus, the Son of God." This is 100% miraculous.

Though it is not currently present, I saw a comment that this is exactly the same way that Jesus Christ is conceived in born-again Christians today.

I agree. It's an exact parallel of how Jesus Christ is conceived in us as believers. This is how we are born as new creations of God in Christ by above.

It's all 100% God by His own Spirit. Our born-again experience in which we are born of God as new creations is as completely 100% by the Holy Spirit... equally fully miraculous.

As miraculous as God resurrecting the dead... 100% miraculous and God only... by God.



Luke 1:30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201;&version=31;#fen-NIV-24921c)] the Son of God.

John 1:12-13 (New International Version)

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:12-13;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26048a)] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Scruffy Kid
Sep 15th 2007, 07:19 PM
Justsurfing,
Thanks for your interesting post! :)

I fully agree with you that the conception of Christ from the Virgin Mary, and His growth and formation within us, typologically parallels Jesus being conceived in the heart of the believer. This parallel is, I think, as you say, strongly suggested by the langauge of John 1:12-13.

That Jesus was born of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit, indicates his unique status as God's only-begotten son. At the level of His coming to be as a human being -- just as in His eternal existence as the Word and Son of God -- Jesus derives his life from God the Father, and can threfore in the fullest range of senses call God his Father.

That's a somewhat different point, though, from Jesus being free from the stain of sin. Adam was created sinless. God could elect to have a merely human person born free of sin, through the merits of Christ. Jesus was, of course, sinless; but that in itself does not begin to cover what was unique about him. Rather, what distinguished Him was that He was the very same person who -- wholly beyond the range of the created order, beyond time and space -- is the eternal God, God the Son, one of the Holy perichoresis and circuminsession of the Eternal One, YHWH, the Holy Trinity.

A Side Note. The phrase "immaculate conception" in theology does not, actually, refer to the Virgin Birth of Christ, but rather to the view -- held not only by Roman Catholics but by a fair number of Protestants, historically, as well -- that through the merits of Christ's death, applied by anticipation ("prolepticly") Jesus's mother was born free of original sin, and kept free of sin. This is not the place to argue about that concept; my only point is that the precise meaning, historically, of the phrase "immaculate conception" is that.

How God Himself takes on the woundedness and sinfulness of our human nature and overcomes that burden through the blood of the cross -- the most wonderful miracle of Christ's resurrection -- comes from the fact that Jesus was fully God and fully man, and thus able as man to die, and to share in our human condition, yet being God able to bring the fullness of the divinity to that, so that in Him God bore our sins and redeemed and restored human nature.

All this is implied in the act of incarnation itself -- God the Son taking on human nature, as variously explained by John, Luke, Matthew, and Paul (in Philippians) -- just as it is fully implied in Jesus' Passion, Death, and Resurrection. And -- just as you say -- these wonderful truths directly relate to God's redeeming us, and Christ being born in our hearts.

Thanks for drawing those parallels in this thread!!

punk
Sep 15th 2007, 10:41 PM
There is no doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception" of Jesus in any Christian faith.

Jesus was the result of the Virgin Birth.

The only place the "Immaculate Conception" occurs is in Roman Catholic theology where it refers to the conception of Mary inside Mary's mother's womb.

In the Roman Catholic Church Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Jesus was Born of a Virgin.

These are entirely different things.

Myqyl
Sep 15th 2007, 11:40 PM
I wonder about the terms of service here that will not allow Catholics to discuss their doctrine, but allows others to misrepresent that doctrine...

Truely a sad thing, and hardly a very Christian thing to do.

justsurfing
Sep 16th 2007, 02:36 AM
Hi,

Sorry. I'm not Catholic. I think in terms of "immaculate conception" meaning that Mary was a virgin and God wholly did the work of conceiving Jesus Christ in Mary as a 100% God miraculous work of the Holy Spirit.

By no means do I believe Mary was sinless... no way. She, like all the rest of humanity - just like you and me - was conceived in sin and born with a fallen sinful nature... separated from God by sin.

So, sorry, never realized Catholics more broadly used the term in a way with which I do not agree. If I could change the title, I would to "100% God conception"... which is really all I meant.

The way I see it (Mary being a sinner), it really is a parallel between Jesus being formed in her... and us being saved by God as sinners. God does the work 100% by His Spirit miraculously conceiving Jesus Christ in us as sinners birthing us from above by His Spirit as new creations: a spiritual resurrection and new creation.

I apologize for my confusion of terms. Have never studied Catholicism and have no desire to do so.

God bless,

js

mickeyrory
Sep 16th 2007, 05:28 AM
Just in case there is misunderstanding about the immaculate conception. It doesn't refer to the birth of Jesus but to the birth of Mary. Why, you might ask? Every Jew was required to offer sacrifice after the birth of a child, sinful flesh, original sin, various other names, basically because the birth of one with sinful nature caused the mother to be unclean., therefore she had to atone for it with the appointed sacrifice under the law, of which she did. How would the Catholic church keep Jesus from being accounted as all others of mankind? They invented the "Immaculate Conception." If Mary was born without this sin (original sin, as they call it) then it follows that anything coming out of her would also be without it. Job says it is impossible. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean man out of the unclean? Not one! Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. So, if Mary wasn't immaculate, what are the consequences for Jesus?

Teke
Sep 16th 2007, 03:54 PM
There is no doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception" of Jesus in any Christian faith.

The OP would seem to indicate some form of it, whether stated "of Jesus" or "in Jesus". There is some form of the doctrine in all the Christian religions that adhere to the "original sin" concept.
Eastern Christians have no such dogma, though they do consider Mary sinless at some point, they have no "original sin" doctrines or dogmas. Some say she was free from actual sin, some say she never sinned and some others just say she died sinless.


Jesus was the result of the Virgin Birth.

Agreed, which is all the Nicene Creed states.


The only place the "Immaculate Conception" occurs is in Roman Catholic theology where it refers to the conception of Mary inside Mary's mother's womb.

In the Roman Catholic Church Mary was Immaculately Conceived and Jesus was Born of a Virgin.

These are entirely different things.

The Roman church did declare it dogma in the 19th century. And yes, they are different things.
But as you can see from the OP and Scruffy's side note ("the merits of Christ's death, applied by anticipation"), the concept of 'immaculate' is there in the doctrines of Christian religions who teach the 'original sin'.

punk
Sep 16th 2007, 06:38 PM
The OP would seem to indicate some form of it, whether stated "of Jesus" or "in Jesus". There is some form of the doctrine in all the Christian religions that adhere to the "original sin" concept.
Eastern Christians have no such dogma, though they do consider Mary sinless at some point, they have no "original sin" doctrines or dogmas. Some say she was free from actual sin, some say she never sinned and some others just say she died sinless.


Agreed, which is all the Nicene Creed states.


The Roman church did declare it dogma in the 19th century. And yes, they are different things.
But as you can see from the OP and Scruffy's side note ("the merits of Christ's death, applied by anticipation"), the concept of 'immaculate' is there in the doctrines of Christian religions who teach the 'original sin'.

Sure we can redefine a term all we want.

In by far most cases, when "immaculate conception" is used in this manner it is simply a result of not understanding the original meaning, rather than a conscious effort to move the meaning.

Brother Mark
Sep 16th 2007, 06:52 PM
Just as Jesus burst forth from Mary, so He will burst forth from all of us that have God's seed in us.

Teke
Sep 17th 2007, 12:13 PM
Sure we can redefine a term all we want.

In by far most cases, when "immaculate conception" is used in this manner it is simply a result of not understanding the original meaning, rather than a conscious effort to move the meaning.

It's pretty common in American English to do such using old English and European history. The tangled web's been weaved. ;)