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Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 05:58 AM
The scriptures in question:


Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


So, is this speaking of the time of the second coming or a time after the Millennium or another time completely? Are there any clues which can identify the proper time frame?

jeffweeder
Sep 17th 2007, 07:03 AM
So, is this speaking of the time of the second coming or a time after the Millennium or another time completely? Are there any clues which can identify the proper time frame?

yes,
refers to the ;

End of the age
The time when we shall shine forth like the son-sun.



40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.




49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

See 2 thess 1
Matt 25:31-


The day we shine forth like the sun, will be the day we marvel at him (2thess 1)
The day we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is
This will be the day that we will be recieved by him, according to his promise to come again.



19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always[7][Lit all the days ], even to the end of the age."

DIZZY
Sep 17th 2007, 07:08 AM
The scriptures in question:


Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
Matthew 13:32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
[QUOTE]
Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Jesus is explaining to His disciples the meaning of the previous verses.
Verses 41-42 talks of what will happen to the those who against Him ( unbelievers) after the millennium.



Dizzy:)

Steven3
Sep 17th 2007, 10:21 AM
Hi Naphal
Thanks for this thread :) how do I give you/it a star? :D

Before we go any further, do we know whether the below is what real reapers did in 1stC Galilee? Or is it counter agricultural practice?

"to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

I imagine it's the sort of thing Joachim Jeremias would have some insight on?
Steven

TEITZY
Sep 17th 2007, 12:31 PM
Old post of mine on the topic.


Jesus is talking in a general sense about the universal kingdom of God which includes every person on the earth, believers and unbelievers. Many people apply this directly to the Church but the "field" is described as the "world" not the church so this is incorrect, however the general principle that there is a mixture of wheat and tares in the visible church is true (1 John 2:19). The "end of the age" refers to Christ's second coming at which time He will set up a new Theocratic Kingdom of God on the earth also known as the 'millennial kingdom'. The original theocracy was set up at creation with Adam as its head but was forfeited when sin entered and satan became the "god of this world". This is one reason why Jesus is referred to as the "last" or "second" Adam because He will crush Satan's rule over the earth and restore the earthly kingdom to God's rule (see Rev 20:1-4).
The order of events is as follows
Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year Tribulation and all unbelievers (children of the devil) who are alive on the earth will be removed via angelic judgement (see Rev 14), while the saved who are still alive will remain and enter into the Millennial or Theocratic kingdom. Jesus taught this same order in the parable of the dragnet (Matt 13:47-50).
Jesus also taught this same order of events in Matt 24:37-41. Many people think this is talking about the rapture of the Church, however clearly the context or preceding verses (27-30) refer to Christ's second coming at the end of the Tribulation period. So Matthew indicates that when Jesus returns to the earth that the order of events will be the same as the order of events that took place in Noah's day. Namely, when the flood came it "took them all away". Now who was taken away or removed from the earth when the flood came? The wicked were removed while righteous Noah and his family remained on the earth to enter into the next period of world history. This is precisely what will take place when Jesus returns, the wicked are removed from the earth, while the righteous remain and enter the next phase of world history in the millennial kingdom.



Cheers
Leigh

DIZZY
Sep 17th 2007, 12:32 PM
Jesus is explaining to His disciples the meaning of the previous verses, verses 36-40.
Verses 41-42 talks of what will happen to the those who are against Him ( unbelievers) after tribulation,they will be taken away, whilst Christ gathers His people to go into the millennium, to reign with Him and the saints of the rapture period.

Lets look at the time frame:
Saints raptured 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, 1 Corinthians 15:15-53
Tribualtion Matthew 24:14-16,2 Thessalonians 2:8
Christs second coming (Millennium reign) Joel 2:2,10,30,31 Isaiah 13:9,10, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 1:7, 6:12-17

This is what these verses mean

Dizzy:)

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 10:41 PM
Hi Naphal
Thanks for this thread :) how do I give you/it a star? :D

Before we go any further, do we know whether the below is what real reapers did in 1stC Galilee? Or is it counter agricultural practice?

"to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

I imagine it's the sort of thing Joachim Jeremias would have some insight on?
Steven

The tare is a real poisonous thing that grows in the biblical area.

Eastons:


"Tares
The bearded darnel, mentioned only in Mt 13:25-30 It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."


It grows among wheat and looks very similar to it. It can be picked out but it's identical appearance means wheat also is accidentally plucked up so what farmers would do is wait until the Darnel shows it's fruit which was a black color. It was then very easy to identify among the wheat and safely remove it.

http://www.montana.edu/wwwpb/pubs/mt200411.html

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 10:53 PM
I agree with the replies that the parable and the gathering of the tares and subsequent burning of them happens after the Millennium rather than at the second coming.

So, there are two harvests at two different times.

The first is two staged. The first gathering or harvest is known as the rapture and it is for those loyal to Christ. Those not raptured are physically punished. This is shown in Rev 14:


Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the rapture by CHrist.


Revelation 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And this is what happens to those Christ did not rapture.

However, the order is reversed for the other harvest which occurs roughly 1000 years later:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Above we have the parable but lets skip down to the explanation of it by Christ:



Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

They ask for him to explain.

Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


The end of the world is the actual end of the world. The "end of the world" is used for different times in scripture so we have to identify the events described to determine exactly what time frame is meant.



Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Two things happen at this time. The wicked are gathered together first and burned in a furnace of fire and the righteous "forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". This is an obvious description of judgment day when the wicked are cast into the lake of fire while the righteous are given eternal life. That happens long after the second coming which identifies these events as being at the end of this age, the great white throne judgement found in Rev 20:


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


This explains why description of the second coming show the righteous being gathered up first and the wicked second while this one parable says the wicked are gathered first and the righteous second. It's all a matter of time frame where the orders are reversed.

Naphal
Sep 17th 2007, 11:01 PM
Old post of mine on the topic.




Cheers
Leigh

The problem with that is that the wicked are not removed from the earth at the second coming. They are not burned as is described. The orders also do not match any of the second coming descriptions.

BTW, the wicked in the flood were not taken from the earth. They died on the earth from drowning while it was Noah and family that were taken off the surface of the world by the waters via the ark. That symbolizes the rapture and being taken to safty by God.

The same applies for the story of Lot where he and his family are TAKEN by angels to a safe location while those left behind (Greek means not accepted or rejected) were the ones God killed.

It is always the righteous that are taken or gathered first, taken to a location of safety and are together in one group while the rest are not allowed to join but are punished and killed.

Only long after the second coming will the wicked of the world be gathered and taken first while those who are righteous shall remain where they are.

TEITZY
Sep 18th 2007, 06:43 AM
The problem with that is that the wicked are not removed from the earth at the second coming. They are not burned as is described. The orders also do not match any of the second coming descriptions.

BTW, the wicked in the flood were not taken from the earth. They died on the earth from drowning while it was Noah and family that were taken off the surface of the world by the waters via the ark. That symbolizes the rapture and being taken to safty by God.

The same applies for the story of Lot where he and his family are TAKEN by angels to a safe location while those left behind (Greek means not accepted or rejected) were the ones God killed.

It is always the righteous that are taken or gathered first, taken to a location of safety and are together in one group while the rest are not allowed to join but are punished and killed.

Only long after the second coming will the wicked of the world be gathered and taken first while those who are righteous shall remain where they are.

Matt 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Clearly those 'taken' from the earth in judgment by the flood were unbelievers. So if language and context means anything, this is not a reference to the rapture or believers being taken from the earth.

Below is some old posts that go into a bit more detail about Matt 13 & 24.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=572765&postcount=35

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=558779&postcount=17

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=884738&postcount=57

Cheers
Leigh

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 06:47 AM
Matt 24:39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


Did you forget to read the part you underlined? It says ALL were taken by the flood. Furthermore this is written:


1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The same water that killed also saved.



Clearly those 'taken' from the earth in judgment by the flood were unbelievers.


The wicked weren't taken from the earth. They were not taken into the safety of the ark and were killed by the flood waters.

The only ones that even came close to leaving the earth were the ones in the Ark. They rose above the literal ground upon the waters and were carried away. This is an early glimpse of the Rapture.

Steven3
Sep 18th 2007, 07:41 AM
Hi Naphal :)
Eastons:

"Tares
The bearded darnel, mentioned only in Mt 13:25-30 It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine."

I dug out Jeremias but he doesn't even cover the Parable of the Tares.

France (IVP) notes that "sowing of darnel was punishable by Roman Law... the act of an enemy... which suggests that the parable was based on a
real life situation" (though in the Tyndale/IVP commentary series they have the bad habit of making claims without giving footnotes)

It's still difficult to know if the gathering of tares first is significant or simply what farmers did for agricultural reasons.

God bless :)
S

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 07:45 AM
Hi Naphal :)



It's still difficult to know if the gathering of tares first is significant or simply what farmers did for agricultural reasons.





It's both. It's what they actually did. They couldn't remove the tares safely until the time of the harvest when they could clearly identify them. They would go through the fields and remove the tares and then they could safely harvest the wheat without fear of a poisoned crop. The Darnel was a serious poison and you would not want it in the wheat that ultimately was made into flour and bread. It could make you sick, possibly kill you. A farmer that got this reputation would be avoided and his livelihood threatened.

Steven3
Sep 18th 2007, 09:33 AM
It's both. It's what they actually did. They couldn't remove the tares safely until the time of the harvest when they could clearly identify them. They would go through the fields and remove the tares and then they could safely harvest the wheat without fear of a poisoned crop. The Darnel was a serious poison and you would not want it in the wheat that ultimately was made into flour and bread. It could make you sick, possibly kill you. A farmer that got this reputation would be avoided and his livelihood threatened.

That's very interesting information. I had never heard that before. Do you have a source I could note in my margin? I think your bread-making information removes any remaining doubt in my mind that the woman "hiding" leaven in the bread that follows is a parallel. The woman is the "human enemy" of the parable of the tares, and the "devil" of the explanation of the tares.

However the fact that the farmer gathered tares first as normal agricultural practice tends to suggest to me that order in the explanation isn't so significant as to require a separate "furnace of fire" (13:42) from the fire into which the goats go in Matthew 25.

I can see your point, but I wonder if it isn't just the perspective of the agricultural practice interfering with the angelic gathering of the sheep.

Maybe there is a third possibility - the angels simply gather everyone, sheep and goats, wheat and tares to the the Judge's bema (counter to Matt13 "tares" I know) and Christ sorts between wheat and tares, sheep and goats, himself.

I know that this seems to contradict both models - both the tares, and the Olivet gathering, but I'm wondering if we aren't making things too complicated.

The world on Christ's return consists of three groups of people, correct?
1. Sheep (the "when did we see you naked, hungry" group)
2. Goats (the "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name" group)
3. Non-Christians

Being gathered (no matter what the sequence) isn't necessarily good news. If it's a goat-gathering then you're better off being in group 3. But the goats don't know this until in front of their Master. So if angels turned up and said "right, half the church on the blue bus, half on the red bus" the concept of Christ judging just went out of the window.

Ultimately these are all parables and the fact that we can't reconcile every detail in every parable to the same model isn't as important as the moral lesson of each parable as a discrete narrative. I don't myself think there's an overarching systematic unity that binds every detail of every parable together..

But kudos to you for trying :) It's a worthy attitude.
God bless
Steven

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 10:21 AM
That's very interesting information. I had never heard that before. Do you have a source I could note in my margin?


Not offhand. I've spent years discussing various things and this is one I have studied over the years. I recall reading various articles that give bits of information but I did not save them. I'm sure there are more to be found online aside from the little we've already found and posted.



[QUOTE]I think your bread-making information removes any remaining doubt in my mind that the woman "hiding" leaven in the bread that follows is a parallel.

Yes the leaven is similar to the idea of mixing in some of the poison tare "fruits".




However the fact that the farmer gathered tares first as normal agricultural practice tends to suggest to me that order in the explanation isn't so significant as to require a separate "furnace of fire" (13:42) from the fire into which the goats go in Matthew 25.


Well, I believe that is the same exact time frame. It simply begins with the second coming and skips forward to judgment day without any mention of the events inbetween.





I can see your point, but I wonder if it isn't just the perspective of the agricultural practice interfering with the angelic gathering of the sheep.

Maybe there is a third possibility - the angels simply gather everyone, sheep and goats, wheat and tares to the the Judge's bema (counter to Matt13 "tares" I know) and Christ sorts between wheat and tares, sheep and goats, himself.

I know that this seems to contradict both models - both the tares, and the Olivet gathering, but I'm wondering if we aren't making things too complicated.



I don't see any support for angels gathering everyone. They always have a specific group they target, removing some from the whole.




The world on Christ's return consists of three groups of people, correct?
1. Sheep (the "when did we see you naked, hungry" group)
2. Goats (the "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name" group)
3. Non-Christians



I don't see three groups actually. I see non-Christians as with the goats and even the ones who thought they were Christians simply weren't.

Steven3
Sep 18th 2007, 10:52 AM
Hi N :)
[quote=Steven3;1385046]I don't see three groups actually. I see non-Christians as with the goats and even the ones who thought they were Christians simply weren't.Possibly, certainly the Gospels have a very binary view of the whole world as if you're either a sheep or you're a goat. But then that's possibly because the setting was Judea and Galilee? It's a little bit more difficult for a Borneo tribesman to stand in queue waiting to be identified as a sheep or goat when a few hours earlier he had no inkling the God of the Bible even existed. Most of the NT judgment parables - in fact all - are related to Christ sorting out between good and bad Christians.

But yes, I take your point. Do you have any other verses outside Matt13 (and outside the quagmire of Revelation) that refer to a gathering first of the wicked/tares?
God bless
Steven

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 10:49 PM
Hi N :) [quote=Naphal;1385056]Possibly, certainly the Gospels have a very binary view of the whole world as if you're either a sheep or you're a goat. But then that's possibly because the setting was Judea and Galilee? It's a little bit more difficult for a Borneo tribesman to stand in queue waiting to be identified as a sheep or goat when a few hours earlier he had no inkling the God of the Bible even existed.


Sure but if we keep in mind the timeframe I am suggesting, after the Millennium, then there will be no one that doesn't know Christ in some fashion.





Most of the NT judgment parables - in fact all - are related to Christ sorting out between good and bad Christians.



I wouldn't say all. I know of one where Jews that do not believe are broken off branches etc etc.




But yes, I take your point. Do you have any other verses outside Matt13 (and outside the quagmire of Revelation) that refer to a gathering first of the wicked/tares?

I believe the goat/sheep one is another version. Otherwise, I don't think I can think of any.