PDA

View Full Version : When did the Jews go off the path?



Pages : [1] 2

Fenris
Sep 18th 2007, 12:46 PM
586 BC? (the destruction of the First Temple)
516 BC? (building of the Second Temple)
500-300 BC? (Great Assembly)
4 BC? (Birth of Jesus, give or take a few years)
30 AD? (Sermon on the mount)
33 AD? (Crucifixion of Jesus)
68 AD? (Destruction of the Second Temple)

Some other date not mentioned?
Jews have always been wrong?
Jews have never been wrong?

Vickilynn
Sep 18th 2007, 11:35 PM
Shalom Fenris,

I'm am at a loss to understand your question.
The Jews went off WHAT path?

What are you trying to ask us?

Naphal
Sep 18th 2007, 11:40 PM
586 BC? (the destruction of the First Temple)
516 BC? (building of the Second Temple)
500-300 BC? (Great Assembly)
4 BC? (Birth of Jesus, give or take a few years)
30 AD? (Sermon on the mount)
33 AD? (Crucifixion of Jesus)
68 AD? (Destruction of the Second Temple)

Some other date not mentioned?
Jews have always been wrong?
Jews have never been wrong?


I believe it would be more associated with the death of Christ but it really is ongoing in rejection of Him as the Messiah. The good news is that NT scripture states any Jew that ends their disbelief and accepts Jesus as the Messiah shall be re-attached to the Vine. This is always something a Christian prays for.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 18th 2007, 11:42 PM
Okay....from a Biblical perspective, Jesus pointed out in several places that the Jewish leaders/teachers had strayed from what God had intended. Part of Jesus ministry was to call back the hearts of His people to God. To answer your question...from just before the birth of Christ until now...whenever they have rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah of God...

jesuslover1968
Sep 18th 2007, 11:44 PM
Very few Jews were ever ON the path. Neither is any other person. The whole point is to show humans that they CAN'T stay on that path alone. We must have a Savior. Out of curiousity, why do you ask?

talmidim
Sep 18th 2007, 11:48 PM
So all the times that Adonai admonished them in the Tanakh for going astray doesn't count? And who are we to judge them anyway? Don't we have enough on our plate, just trying to stay on the path ourselves?

This whole topic is leading us down the wrong path. How many times have I strayed the path, let me count the ways. That is what relationship is about. Judging ourselves, not others.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 18th 2007, 11:50 PM
So all the times that Adonai admonished them in the Tanakh for going astray doesn't count? And who are we to judge them anyway? Don't we have enough on our plate, just trying to stay on the path ourselves?

This whole topic is leading us down the wrong path. How many times have I strayed the path, let me count the ways. That is what relationship is about. Judging ourselves, not others.


I am not condemning, just stating a reality that is repeated in the New Testament.

Now, if the question talks of personal 'straying' then it might still echo the same answer........

talmidim
Sep 19th 2007, 01:18 AM
I am not condemning, just stating a reality that is repeated in the New Testament.

Now, if the question talks of personal 'straying' then it might still echo the same answer........Didn't say that you were, Brother. I am just saying that this whole topic is wrong. The history of the whole world is filled with examples of where they went wrong. And the Tanakh is filled with examples of where the children of Israel departed from Elohim. What does that have to do with anything? My point is that none of this matters. All that matters is what I personally do to stay on His path.

I wonder why this question was asked in the first place. And if it is allowed, why is this thread here and not Bible Chat? The whole thing seems wrong. Am I the only one to see that?

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 01:20 AM
Didn't say that you were, Brother. I am just saying that this whole topic is wrong. The history of the whole world is filled with examples of where they went wrong. And the Tanakh is filled with examples of where the children of Israel departed from Elohim. What does that have to do with anything? My point is that none of this matters. All that matters is what I personally do to stay on His path.

I wonder why this question was asked in the first place. And if it is allowed, why is this thread here and not Bible Chat? The whole thing seems wrong. Am I the only one to see that?



That would be one to ask the OP to clarify.....

Naphal
Sep 19th 2007, 05:30 AM
Didn't say that you were, Brother. I am just saying that this whole topic is wrong. The history of the whole world is filled with examples of where they went wrong. And the Tanakh is filled with examples of where the children of Israel departed from Elohim. What does that have to do with anything? My point is that none of this matters. All that matters is what I personally do to stay on His path.

I wonder why this question was asked in the first place. And if it is allowed, why is this thread here and not Bible Chat? The whole thing seems wrong. Am I the only one to see that?


There is nothing wrong with the discussion of why and how the Jews erred and what we as Christians can learn from it. It is a very appropriate topic for this forum because in our roots there are many good things to emulate and many bad things to avoid.

matthew94
Sep 19th 2007, 05:57 AM
The history of the whole world is filled with examples of where they went wrong. And the Tanakh is filled with examples of where the children of Israel departed from Elohim. What does that have to do with anything? My point is that none of this matters.


If none of it matters, then why has God allowed history and the Tanakh to be filled with such examples? It seems overly suspicious to call this thread 'wrong.' Seems to me it was just a question about the apostasy of many people who were part of our Jewish roots.

To answer Fenris' question, it seems to me that Israel wavered many times b/w obedience and disobedience, but that by the time of Jesus' ministry they're rebellion had reached the tipping point, as Jesus pointed out in Matthew 23:32

talmidim
Sep 19th 2007, 07:02 AM
If none of it matters, then why has God allowed history and the Tanakh to be filled with such examples? Shalom Brother Mathew,

Criticizing the Jews is a red herring. I had hoped that you would know that is what I meant. So, in the context of my remarks, why would you have deleted my next statement from your quote?

"All that matters is what I personally do to stay on His path."

The, "Why has God allowed" premise is as old as unbelief. You really don't know why those lessons are there? For me to examine and to compare myself against. As a standard by which to measure my own walk. As an object lesson, not as a weapon to use against others.

Isn't our walk supposed to be about relationship with Adonai and each other? Aren't we supposed to judge ourselves and not each other? Well if so, where is the love in this? Certainly not in the way this OP is phrased. It smell like bait to me.

Getting a bunch of Christians to argue amongst themselves over how best to criticize the Jews is something an anti-missionary might do. And our response to the OP is so predictable. :cry:

I wonder, how many of my brothers in Messiah actually felt the hook go through their upper lip? I wonder, how many of our Jewish brethren watching from the wings are shaking their heads? Well at least we don't disappoint. Our reaction to this OP is what so many Jews have come to expect from Christians. Is this witnessing for the love of Yeshua? I don't think so...

This subscription will be deleted from my user control panel.

Good night all.

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 12:45 PM
So all the times that Adonai admonished them in the Tanakh for going astray doesn't count?
No, because we are discussing something different here.

When the prophets admonished the Jews they were supposed to return to the Law as laid out in the Torah. When Jesus enters the picture there is a different expectation as to what the Jews are supposed to do; namely,to love God and to love each other. All other ritual law goes out the window. This is very interesting, because Jews were not expecting this to happen, ever. They were under the impression that God's covenant with them was permanent and their obligation to follow the Law as laid out in the Torah was permanent. Christians will say that Jesus's coming had been foretold in the Tanach and Jews should have realized that Jesus was the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. And yet most Jews in Jesus's time did not see him in that light. So obviously, from a Christian perspective, at some point in time the common Jewish understanding of God, the Law, and the messiah had changed from what God intended. Yes?

So I guess my question should be amended to ask: At what point did Judaism evolve to the point at where acceptance of Jesus becomes impossible according to the common understanding?

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 12:48 PM
Getting a bunch of Christians to argue amongst themselves over how best to criticize the Jews is something an anti-missionary might do. And our response to the OP is so predictable. :cry:
I don't think you understand the point of my original post. See the post I made above this one for further clarification.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 02:40 PM
So I guess my question should be amended to ask: At what point did Judaism evolve to the point at where acceptance of Jesus becomes impossible according to the common understanding?

I don't know if it ever became impossible, however; from just before Christ, it might have become difficult.

I am curious if you think it ever became impossible. As a former Atheist, I never saw much difference between Jews and Christians until I really read the New Testament, and understood the radical change in the Apostle Paul's life and thinking...

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 02:52 PM
I don't know if it ever became impossible, however; from just before Christ, it might have become difficult. What happened in Judaism right before Jesus that made it difficult for Jews to accept his divinity?


I am curious if you think it ever became impossible. As a former Atheist, I never saw much difference between Jews and Christians until I really read the New Testament, and understood the radical change in the Apostle Paul's life and thinking...A religious Jew will have two problems with accepting Jesus. The first are the claims of Jesus's divinity and the second is the abrogation of the law. Unless a religious Jew is willing to throw away large portions of Jewish theology, I would say that it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to accept Christian claims.

Kahtar
Sep 19th 2007, 03:59 PM
From my perspective, for whatever that's worth, Jesus did not change, or bring and end to, the law. Rather, he explained it. He showed that the purpose of the law was not a set of commands from a Divine General, but rather a set of instruction designed to lead us to Him, and to worship and honor Him in our hearts.
Or in other words, the transferance from a strictly legalistic view to that of desire. He showed that the command to not kill went beyond simply not killing to a place of not being angry without cause that leads to killing. A heart issue.
Or the command to not commit adultery included the heart issue of lusting after a woman in our heart.
The whole series of ordinances for temple worship have not really changed. Yes, the physical temple has been destroyed, but God dwells within each of us, and we have become His temple, and we worship Him in spirit, and truth. The ordinances remain, but now they apply inwardly. You can see the study I'm doing called A Kingdom of Priests for a clearer understanding on how that works.
The point at which it became impossible for Jews to accept Christ was simply the point at which they no longer viewed God from a position of love and trust, but as a General Who would cast them into slavery for their disobedience. And of course, He did do that, a number of times. But had they, from Sinai onward, allowed His instructions to penetrate their hearts instead of getting stuck in their minds, they would not have disobeyed and gone 'awhoring after other gods', because their relationship with Him, and their obedience to Him, would have been based upon that love.

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 04:17 PM
Thank you for the lengthy and detailed response. Regardless, as I said, traditional Jewish theology has an impossible time reconciling both Jesus's claims of divinity and the abrogation of the Law.


From my perspective, for whatever that's worth, Jesus did not change, or bring and end to, the law. Rather, he explained it. He showed that the purpose of the law was not a set of commands from a Divine General, but rather a set of instruction designed to lead us to Him, and to worship and honor Him in our hearts.
Or in other words, the transferance from a strictly legalistic view to that of desire. He showed that the command to not kill went beyond simply not killing to a place of not being angry without cause that leads to killing. A heart issue.
Or the command to not commit adultery included the heart issue of lusting after a woman in our heart.
This is an interesting perspective, and one that I have heard before. Now, one could retort that the law does exist to lead us to the divine. Man, being flawed, will not necessarily do the right thing out of love of God or one's fellow man, but if they do the right regardless then they will eventually be led back to God. This leads me to believe that Christianity is a more idealistic religion and Judaism is a more practical religion.


The point at which it became impossible for Jews to accept Christ was simply the point at which they no longer viewed God from a position of love and trust, but as a General Who would cast them into slavery for their disobedience.I'm don't agree with this perspective. No Jew present or past views God as a being that simply punishes for disobedience. Yom Kippur is this Saturday and religious Jews the world over will atone for their sins and, God willing, be forgiven. So a Jewish person would essentially see Jesus as being unnecessary.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 04:32 PM
A religious Jew will have two problems with accepting Jesus. The first are the claims of Jesus's divinity and the second is the abrogation of the law. Unless a religious Jew is willing to throw away large portions of Jewish theology, I would say that it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to accept Christian claims.Kahtar above said it all, you only have to look how any of us defend the Law here on this board in Biblechat for example, and in other places. We do not consider the law done away with, nor do we consider it changed in any way, But rather we consider that Yeshua showed the true spirit of the Law from pure love. When has man ever been able to purely love ?

Yeshua criticized the rabbis of His time of being without mercy, and being showy in what they were doing, and called them Hypocrites. I think i understand that any religious God fearing Jew would bristle at that.
But that's why it's so important, for us all to have an open heart and mind for God to allow Him to work in us via the Ruach.

The trinity issue i can understand is a bit harder even... but the way i have tried to explain it that i see/understand it on this board a long time ago and got flamed for, is like this:

God the Father
The Holy Spirit (Mind of God)
Yeshua the Son (Word of God)

When God created the earth at first we see His spirit hovering over the waters, as I liken it to His mind dwelling over the waters of the deep setting into motion the plan of creation.
Then God spoke, and things began to be formed. Thus i consider the Word an offspring of God (God calls Yeshua His Son), because God birthed the Word in His mouth by the Holy Spirit. Yet, since the Word came from God and reflects His whole Being the Word is God.
That is how i believe Yeshua to be able to claim to be God, or the Son of God, and not a lesser form of God, because The Word is a part of God, when spoken it stands on its own, but always in accordance with God, it cannot be anything else, but the Word of God.

This is why Yeshua said here:
Joh 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
God's Word cannot do or say anything other than what God says, as the Word is being spoken from God.

God sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to Yeshua which is to me like God sent Yeshua His mind. Just as we have the mind of God in us when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

So Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh created by the Holy Spirit to be birthed by His mother Mary.
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

As a human He needed to be sent the Ruach just like God did later for others, so that the Law could begin to be written into our hearts, because only through being inside of us God can write the Law into our hearts.

Anyway, i might get some flak for my view, but i'm not going to bend.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 04:54 PM
Fenris, i have a question for you:
Do you consider the Law of God also to be the Word of God ?

I know i do, so therefore Yeshua is the Law in its purest form, Yeshua could not live the Law contrary to the Law.

Anyway, just wanted to add that question.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 04:58 PM
Oh, and one more thing for a scripoture reference i forgot to add:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 05:00 PM
Tanja, you have done a fine job of explaining what you believe. But do you see what Jews believe?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 05:06 PM
LOL i'm on a roll here:


Unless a religious Jew is willing to throw away large portions of Jewish theology, I would say that it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to accept Christian claims.

Amazingly Yeshua warned of these things:

Mar 7:6 And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
Mar 7:7 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
Mar 7:8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
Mar 7:9 And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.


In none of this it ever touches the Law, but it touches on the theology the traditions of men..... the halacha that is manmade not the law.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 05:08 PM
Fenris,

I believe you explained it before.... How does what Jews believe compare to what i have written ?

Also, can you give me an answer to what i asked you about if you could consider the Law from God also be the Word ?
I know in Hebrew it was called "The ten words".....


Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 05:18 PM
Fenris,

I believe you explained it before.... How does what Jews believe compare to what i have written ?

Also, can you give me an answer to what i asked you about if you could consider the Law from God also be the Word ?
I know in Hebrew it was called "The ten words".....


Shalom my friend,
TanjaAddressing this post as well as the one above it, Jews believe in the absolute unity of God and the eternal obligation to perform the commandments. So it's easy to see where we are bumping heads.:hmm:

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 05:22 PM
Fenris,
can you define absolute unity ?

How is what i wrote of how i view The Holy Spirit and the Son not in unity with the Father ?

When you give me your word to do something that Word is you, it is who you are, and a part of you that came from your mouth and mind. It cannot be twisted. But it certainly can be misunderstood.

How are your thoughts not a part of you even though they may be expressed in words or remain silent in your head ? You could write down your thoughts not ever having spoken a single Word, and yet it is representative of you, and only you.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 05:36 PM
Fenris,
can you define absolute unity ?

One. Indivisible.

Teke
Sep 19th 2007, 05:58 PM
No, because we are discussing something different here.

When the prophets admonished the Jews they were supposed to return to the Law as laid out in the Torah. When Jesus enters the picture there is a different expectation as to what the Jews are supposed to do; namely,to love God and to love each other.

Reducing the law to simple terms is not uncommon. The 613 are summed in the 10 and the prophets, ie. Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., also reduced them to the same two commands Jesus spoke of. So this is not something new or strange.


All other ritual law goes out the window. This is very interesting, because Jews were not expecting this to happen, ever. They were under the impression that God's covenant with them was permanent and their obligation to follow the Law as laid out in the Torah was permanent.

And their covenant is forever. But the rituals of animal sacrifice were for a specific reason which was not necessary any longer. And it seems the Temple was regarded more than the Arc which was suppose to be present to sanctify the temple.

The God-Man Jesus Christ is the Arc which is the Temple of Christians. Christians being vessels of His Body/Temple are sanctified by Him.
It's like what Jesus asked the Pharisees.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.


Christians will say that Jesus's coming had been foretold in the Tanach and Jews should have realized that Jesus was the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. And yet most Jews in Jesus's time did not see him in that light. So obviously, from a Christian perspective, at some point in time the common Jewish understanding of God, the Law, and the messiah had changed from what God intended. Yes?

The Jews did realize it when He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. But they rejected Him coming that way. They saw Him coming in one of two ways, the Lion of Judah, or the Suffering Servant. But as Isaiah said, the Lion and Lamb lay down together in 'peace'. Jesus came in peace. As both the Lamb and Lion, and even the Suffering Servant of Israel.


So I guess my question should be amended to ask: At what point did Judaism evolve to the point at where acceptance of Jesus becomes impossible according to the common understanding?

I don't see how acceptance would be impossible. Jews either accepted Messiah or not. They didn't stop practicing Judaism because of that acceptance. And Jesus didn't condemn such practice. In fact the liturgical traditions were passed onto Christianity.:)

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 06:25 PM
Reducing the law to simple terms is not uncommon. The 613 are summed in the 10 and the prophets, ie. Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc., also reduced them to the same two commands Jesus spoke of. So this is not something new or strange.
A Jewish person would state that the prophets had no right to reduce the commandments in light of 'neither add nor take away'. SO obviously the prophets did not reduce the number of Mitzvot but rather a simplification as you say but not a legally binding one.



And their covenant is forever. But the rituals of animal sacrifice were for a specific reason which was not necessary any longer. And it seems the Temple was regarded more than the Arc which was suppose to be present to sanctify the temple. We agree on this although for different reasons.



I don't see how acceptance would be impossible. Jews either accepted Messiah or not. They didn't stop practicing Judaism because of that acceptance. And Jesus didn't condemn such practice. In fact the liturgical traditions were passed onto Christianity.:)My point was not whether Jews accepted Jesus or not. I am aware that some did. My point was that traditional religious Jews at the time (and ours, for that matter) did not and do not accept him. So obviously according to Christians, Judaism at some point diverged from a religion where Jesus could have been accepted. My question is simply, when? I even laid out probable dates, as I perceive history.

Teke
Sep 19th 2007, 07:09 PM
A Jewish person would state that the prophets had no right to reduce the commandments in light of 'neither add nor take away'. SO obviously the prophets did not reduce the number of Mitzvot but rather a simplification as you say but not a legally binding one.

Isn't the legality part the point. Is spirituality or worship suppose to be about what is 'legal' or what is 'obedience' to God.



We agree on this although for different reasons.

Our reasons likely are the same in the light of history.


My point was not whether Jews accepted Jesus or not. I am aware that some did. My point was that traditional religious Jews at the time (and ours, for that matter) did not and do not accept him. So obviously according to Christians, Judaism at some point diverged from a religion where Jesus could have been accepted. My question is simply, when? I even laid out probable dates, as I perceive history.

I guess it depends on what Christians you ask. I'm an eastern Christian. I don't hold western perceptions.
So I don't understand what Christians you speak of who say that Jesus could not be accepted in Judaism at some point. Or why they would say such.

No religion can stop one from accepting the Messiah. Be it Judaism, Islam, Buddhism etc.

Just this month in reading the Archeology magazine for Sept/Oct, there is a picture of Israeli President Moshe Katzav and Patriarch Irineos of the Christian Greek Orthodox Church looking at a mosaic discovered at Tel Megiddo. A discovery which may change the way people have thought of how Romans, Jews and Christians interacted. As by the inscriptions this is a place of worship (church, synagogue). And a Roman is who donated the floor according to the inscriptions.
Things that make us go hmmm.....:hmm:
:)

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 07:17 PM
Isn't the legality part the point. Is spirituality or worship suppose to be about what is 'legal' or what is 'obedience' to God.
I don't perceive following the commandments being solely about obedience to God. They have many reasons, some comprehensible and some not; some physical or societal and some metaphysical or spiritual. But they never were just an arbitrary set of rules just given to man to prove our obedience.


I guess it depends on what Christians you ask. I'm an eastern Christian. I don't hold western perceptions.
So I don't understand what Christians you speak of who say that Jesus could not be accepted in Judaism at some point. Or why they would say such.Ah, interesting. Well, as I said, Jews believe in the absolute unity of God and the permanence of the Law. If these concepts are in fact wrong, when did they appear in Judaism?



Just this month in reading the Archeology magazine for Sept/Oct, there is a picture of Israeli President Moshe Katzav and Patriarch Irineos of the Christian Greek Orthodox Church looking at a mosaic discovered at Tel Megiddo. A discovery which may change the way people have thought of how Romans, Jews and Christians interacted. As by the inscriptions this is a place of worship (church, synagogue). And a Roman is who donated the floor according to the inscriptions.
Things that make us go hmmm.....:hmm:
:)

Yes, it was a very interesting period in history.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 19th 2007, 07:24 PM
My point was not whether Jews accepted Jesus or not. I am aware that some did. My point was that traditional religious Jews at the time (and ours, for that matter) did not and do not accept him. So obviously according to Christians, Judaism at some point diverged from a religion where Jesus could have been accepted. My question is simply, when? I even laid out probable dates, as I perceive history.I believe you've hit on an important point, Fenris. You say that 'traditional' Jews did not and have not accepted Him. This speaks to the point I believe JiMH made earlier that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders for holding so tightly to the traditions of men and yet feeling free to reinterpret the commandments of God. In the words of Tevia (Fiddler on the Roof) TRADITION!!!

The fact is that MANY Pharisees did indeed follow Yeshua. Some by name were mentioned and others by the common designation as Pharisee. One Pharisee who had been taught under Rabbi Gamaliel the great first century teacher, grandson of Hillel; became a great leader amongst the earlier followers of Messiah. Shaul (Paul) calls himself a Pharisee of Pharisees, well learned in all the Scriptures and at first a persecutor of the believers. So, I will have to point out the flaw in your statement by adding the word 'traditional'. Had you said 'religious' you would have been completely wrong since many religious Pharisees DID come to Him.

In answer to your question of when Judaism diverged from a religion that could accept Yeshua as Messiah, I will have to say NEVER! As long as one looks at scripture for what it is and not for what people may tell them it is, Jews are the ones who should have the easiest time recognizing Messiah as He is the embodiment of TaNakH. And, as I'm sure you are quite aware, there are more and more Jews recognizing Him each and every day! ;)

Baruch HaShem Adonai!

Kahtar
Sep 19th 2007, 07:25 PM
When Jesus enters the picture there is a different expectation as to what the Jews are supposed to do; namely,to love God and to love each other.

I don't think this some 'new' expectation, Fenris.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:6
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, That I will give [you] the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. Deuteronomy 11:13-14
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul. Joshua 22:5
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:33-34
For the LORD your God God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. [I][B]Deuteronomy 10:17-19

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 07:27 PM
I believe you've hit on an important point, Fenris. You say that 'traditional' Jews did not and have not accepted Him. This speaks to the point I believe JiMH made earlier that Yeshua rebuked the religious leaders for holding so tightly to the traditions of men that they and yet feeling free to reinterpret the commandments of God. In the words of Tevia (Fiddler on the Roof) TRADITION!!!

The fact is that MANY Pharisees did indeed follow Yeshua. Some by name were mentioned and others by the common designation as Pharisee. One Pharisee who had been taught under Rabbi Gamaliel the great first century teacher, grandson of Hillel; became a great leader amongst the earlier followers of Messiah. Paul calls himself a Pharisee of Pharisees, will learned in all the Scriptures and at first a persecutor of the believers. So, I will have to point out the flaw in your statement by adding the word 'traditional'. Had you said 'religious' you would have been completely wrong since many religious Pharisees DID come to Him.

In answer to your question of when Judaism diverged from a religion that could accept Yeshua as Messiah, I will have to say NEVER! As long as one looks at scripture for what it is and not for what people may tell them it is, Jews are the ones who should have the easiest time recognizing Messiah as He is the embodiment of TaNakH. And, as I'm sure you are quite aware, there are more and more Jews recognizing Him each and every day! ;)

Baruch HaShem Adonai!
All fine and good. So then when did Jewish tradition go wrong?

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 07:28 PM
I don't think this some 'new' expectation, Fenris.

It is new in the sense that it became all that is required.

Kahtar
Sep 19th 2007, 07:36 PM
It is new in the sense that it became all that is required.Ahh. Yes, there are many that would say that. But I see it a tad differently. I understand it this way:
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loves him that begat(God) loves him also that is begotten(Christ) of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:1-3
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. James 1:22-25

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 07:39 PM
Ahh. Yes, there are many that would say that. But I see it a tad differently. I understand it this way:
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loves him that begat(God) loves him also that is begotten(Christ) of him.
Interesting perspective. I suspect few Christians would agree with you, however.

Kahtar
Sep 19th 2007, 07:43 PM
Uh, just a note: I didn't underline those to stress them, only to point out who was being referred to in that verse. The remainder of the verse contains the point I was making. Perhaps you undertood that already. Just wanted to lend clarity.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 08:01 PM
What happened in Judaism right before Jesus that made it difficult for Jews to accept his divinity?
A religious Jew will have two problems with accepting Jesus. The first are the claims of Jesus's divinity and the second is the abrogation of the law. Unless a religious Jew is willing to throw away large portions of Jewish theology, I would say that it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to accept Christian claims.

That's is probably the 'killing ground' of belief....the inability to let go of a theological point of view, or a traditional way of looking at scripture.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 19th 2007, 08:04 PM
All fine and good. So then when did Jewish tradition go wrong?When tradition becomes more important than seeking Him with all your heart. When obedience is not because you desire to do the will of God because you trust that His Words are life, even when you may not understand then. But the obedience becomes that of obligation, heavy and burdensome. Something that must be done because Jews have a heavier load than the rest. And though you may say this is not what obedience has become in much of Judaism, I am sure there are Jews reading this who know very well why they are obedient and it's because they feel they have to be because of cultural and familial pressures. That is not the way it should be. These are the Jews that are coming in droves to Messiah.

God Bless!

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 08:11 PM
That's is probably the 'killing ground' of belief....the inability to let go of a theological point of view, or a traditional way of looking at scripture.Hmm. Possibly so, although how can a religion not have consistent rules and points of view?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 08:11 PM
Why, i agree with Kahtar !!!!

As to when did Jewish tradition go wrong? Somewhere ion those 4oo years between Malachi and the arrival of yeshua. Plenty of time for the Word to be twisted and perverted out of it's original meaining. Heck people today still do the same thing.

This is why God wanted us all to receive the Holy Spirit in hopes that we all would come to the same conclusion. The reason we don't is because we're still in this sinful flesh and many rebel against what the Ruach teaches.

Fenris, the 2 greatest commandments do not nulifiy all the others.

I'm starting to see how ironic it is that Jews and Gentiles alike have the same problem understanding what the 2 greatest commandments really are not ALL that is required, but that the 2 are the essence of all commandments, all the Law is based on these two. If you don't love God you cannot please Him, and if you don't love your neighbor, then you cannot fulfill the Law of treating your fellow man right.. as shown in exodus of what to do when your neighbors ox runs away and you catch it, for example etc.....

Wow, it;'s just sad how people don't see this.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 08:14 PM
Hmm. Possibly so, although how can a religion not have consistent rules and points of view?
It does have a consistent base, it's called LOVE....

It ocurred to me yesterday that love makes your path to heaven. If you do anything without a shred of love you'll never get to the Kingdom.

Love is consistent, while the circumstances in which you may show love may not be the same.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 08:16 PM
Hmm. Possibly so, although how can a religion not have consistent rules and points of view?

I suppose that is what the Pharisees asked of Jesus.......

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 08:20 PM
When tradition becomes more important than seeking Him with all your heart. When obedience is not because you desire to do the will of God because you trust that His Words are life, even when you may not understand then. But the obedience becomes that of obligation, heavy and burdensome. Something that must be done because Jews have a heavier load than the rest. And though you may say this is not what obedience has become in much of Judaism, I am sure there are Jews reading this who know very well why they are obedient and it's because they feel they have to be because of cultural and familial pressures. That is not the way it should be. These are the Jews that are coming in droves to Messiah.

God Bless!
This is an interesting Christian view of Judaism. But this is not how religious Jews see the religion at all.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 08:22 PM
In that aspect Fenris,

would it be loving to stone a woman that picked up a dirty diaper off the floor on Sabbath becuase it is bigger than a fig ?

Would it be loving to forbid a woman to carry her son on her shoulders because it fell and scuffed his shin on Sabbath ?

Would it be loving to forbid a nearly blind person from having a light on in the fridge on sabbath, so he/she could get out the food he/she needed ?

That's the point Yeshua tried to drive home with those that adhered to a stricter than God intendet understanding of the Law, and also spoken of here:

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.
1Co 10:24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 08:25 PM
Love is the wisdom in discerning when something is rediculous and not loving, and when something is done in the right spirit with the right motive as Studyin pointed out.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 08:30 PM
I suppose that is what the Pharisees asked of Jesus.......I would not be surprised.

Teke
Sep 19th 2007, 08:34 PM
I don't perceive following the commandments being solely about obedience to God. They have many reasons, some comprehensible and some not; some physical or societal and some metaphysical or spiritual. But they never were just an arbitrary set of rules just given to man to prove our obedience.

I agree with you on this. By obedience I meant in staying in communion with God. A life that exemplifies worship of God. Holiness, being righteous before God.....there are many ways to express this.

Man is only truly free if he is in communion with God.


Ah, interesting. Well, as I said, Jews believe in the absolute unity of God and the permanence of the Law. If these concepts are in fact wrong, when did they appear in Judaism?

Christians believe in the absolute unity of God in One Essence, which is unknowable to us. In eastern thought differences are identified in terms such as 'nature', 'energy', 'essence'. Created beings such as humanity are quite capable of participating with God in His energies, such as grace, mercy, love etc. The ontological aspects are expressed.

God being unknowable to us in His essence, is also expressed apophatically, such as what cannot be denied about Him.

As to the permanence of law, you'd have to clarify that. There are many instances of changes in scripture to what is believed as law. And they seem perfectly acceptable depending on who did the changing. Such as King David did in the ordering of the temple, Moses allowing a second Passover for those who missed the first one etc.

It is the understanding of Christians that it is the spirit which defines what the letter teaches. What good are laws of guidance without mercy of God expressed through us.

This is my understanding of the difference between the letter and the spirit. The "letter," is what is written or prescribed. The "spirit,"is the vital principle, the life giving force behind what is written. The letter has to be followed in the spirit, because without the vital principle, it has no power. The spirit does not take anything away from the letter, it shows how to interpret the letter, i.e., in the "mental disposition," or "vital priciple," that the letter was originally written in. The letter has no power to save without the vital principle, therefore if it is followed alone, it "killeth." Jesus did not say, "I am someone who knows the truth and after I tell you what it is, you will no longer have need of me, but can accomplish what is necessary with that knowledge, he said;

"John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

2 Cor. 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


This also expresses the operation of faith. The act of faith, the truth believed.
As the "letter" can "kill" in the sense of sin, if taken to extremes, such as coveting it.
Jesus brought this out when He spoke with the young man who kept all of the law and commandments and asked Him what else he needed to do. When Jesus told him to give all to the poor, the man left sad because he had much. That man was rich, prideful and coveted the law in making himself righteous.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 09:50 PM
I would not be surprised.

Yes sirree Bob, Jesus was asked several times why he did not follow the traditions of the Fathers.......

slightlypuzzled
Sep 19th 2007, 09:56 PM
I would not be surprised.

But one of the best examples was given by the Saducees who denied the resurrection.
I will quote the confrontation:

Matthew 22:
23On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,

24asking, "Teacher, Moses said, 'IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'

25"Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;

26so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.

27"Last of all, the woman died.

28"In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her."

29But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

30"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

31"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:

32'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.


Jesus point of view was to turn the logic around and question their real knowledge of God and the Scriptures.
I think that is one example of where the tradition went south of the scriptural stance...

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 10:05 PM
Well, the Saducees had some strange ideas anyway. Jesus smacking them around is ok by me.:lol:

Fenris
Sep 19th 2007, 10:16 PM
In that aspect Fenris,

would it be loving to stone a woman that picked up a dirty diaper off the floor on Sabbath becuase it is bigger than a fig ?...
Why would God give us laws that are difficult? To torture us? Or to challenge us to grow?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 20th 2007, 12:25 AM
I'm not sure i understand the direction of your question, Fenris
But my point was along this line: keeping any Law is hard enough, we will mature and grow by this naturally without the hurdles of some making it stricter than God intendet.

God gave us commands and said:

Deu 30:11 "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

So do you think God wanted us to not take care of things that just happen everyday?
Yeshua said:
Mat 12:7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Sep 20th 2007, 03:32 PM
No, because we are discussing something different here.

When the prophets admonished the Jews they were supposed to return to the Law as laid out in the Torah. When Jesus enters the picture there is a different expectation as to what the Jews are supposed to do; namely,to love God and to love each other. All other ritual law goes out the window. This is very interesting, because Jews were not expecting this to happen, ever. They were under the impression that God's covenant with them was permanent and their obligation to follow the Law as laid out in the Torah was permanent. Christians will say that Jesus's coming had been foretold in the Tanach and Jews should have realized that Jesus was the fulfillment of messianic prophecies. And yet most Jews in Jesus's time did not see him in that light. So obviously, from a Christian perspective, at some point in time the common Jewish understanding of God, the Law, and the messiah had changed from what God intended. Yes?

So I guess my question should be amended to ask: At what point did Judaism evolve to the point at where acceptance of Jesus becomes impossible according to the common understanding?If a particular point in time is to be identified, I would say it was Pentecost. The promised Holy Spirit arrived in power and the 14 languages spoken were heard and understood by those who had journeyed to Jerusalem for the feast. This was in direct fulfillment of several prophecies about the new covenant:

(Joel 2:28-29 KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: {29} And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

(Isa 28:11-14 KJV) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. {12} To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. {13} But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. {14} Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

(Zec 13:1 KJV) In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Ta-An
Sep 20th 2007, 07:12 PM
Fenris.... the fact that the Jews have not accepted Yeshua as Messiah, is proving scripture true... it was predicted so to be...

Ta-An
Sep 20th 2007, 07:17 PM
Why would God give us laws that are difficult? To torture us? Or to challenge us to grow? Maybe to point out to us that we need a Redeemer...... Maybe to prevent another attempt of man to be tempted like Adam and Eve were... man that wants to be like G-d... but has to realize that we are not, that we fall short of His glory.... and that we NEED to be redeemed :hmm:

slightlypuzzled
Sep 20th 2007, 09:15 PM
Well, the Saducees had some strange ideas anyway. Jesus smacking them around is ok by me.:lol:

:D:D

Now, how about the Pharisees???

Naphal
Sep 20th 2007, 11:00 PM
:D:D

Now, how about the Pharisees???

hehe....indeed!

SIG
Sep 21st 2007, 12:19 AM
Regading the OP--A better question would be : When did the human race go off the path?

The answer would be: In the Garden of Eden.

Let's make it simpler-- If Jesus were standing in front of you, face-to-face, you could recognize Him as God incarnate, or not. What it is in each of us that recognizes or does not, only each of us and God knows.

From a Biblical (NT) perspective, people are either children of God, or of the other one.

This also goes back to the Garden (seed of the woman vs. seed of the serpent). Jesus in no uncertain terms identifies some of the Pharisees as children of the devil. John the Baptist calls some "generation of vipers" (compare to "seed of the serpent").

What caused some Jews to align with the devil, while others followed Jesus? A hard question. Again, the Bible says that some loved darkness, while others loved light. Understanding the reasons for the difference would be a valuable study indeed.

ANYONE who looks at Jesus may have stumbling blocks that keep them away. Traditional Judaism had its own, as we have seen. But so do all individual souls.

Judaism never went off the path. Rather, individual Jews--or Gentiles--either recognize God's Spirit, or do not.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:44 AM
:D:D

Now, how about the Pharisees???WE are the Pharisees.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:46 AM
I'm not sure i understand the direction of your question, Fenris
Some aspects are difficult and some aspects are easy. I put on Tzitzis in the morning, make a blessing, and forget about it for the rest of the day. And yet I get credit for having done it all day. How easy is that?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:46 AM
If a particular point in time is to be identified, I would say it was Pentecost. The promised Holy Spirit arrived in power and the 14 languages spoken were heard and understood by those who had journeyed to Jerusalem for the feast. This was in direct fulfillment of several prophecies about the new covenant:

If that is so why did the Jews not recognize it as a fulfillment of a prophecy?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:47 AM
Fenris.... the fact that the Jews have not accepted Yeshua as Messiah, is proving scripture true... it was predicted so to be...
Where is this said?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:50 AM
Maybe to point out to us that we need a Redeemer...... Maybe to prevent another attempt of man to be tempted like Adam and Eve were... man that wants to be like G-d... but has to realize that we are not, that we fall short of His glory.... and that we NEED to be redeemed :hmm:This statement is deeper than you know. You've hit on a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity here, namely thus: In Christianity, the messiah is part of the process for overcoming evil. In Judaism, we believe that God already gave us the tools for overcoming evil, his Torah. The messiah is the reward when we do overcome it, on a national level.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 09:51 AM
Regading the OP--A better question would be : When did the human race go off the path?


Different question, different thread.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 11:54 AM
If that is so why did the Jews not recognize it as a fulfillment of a prophecy?As it has already been said, it was prophesied!

Isaiah 53:1-4
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

This is US rejecting Him. Not believing the report. Not desiring Him. Despising Him. Hiding our faces from Him. Not esteeming Him. Seeing Him as stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. We've ALL gone astray, each of us to our own way (verse 6). We were ALL there so no one here is making judgment on you or anyone else who has not yet recognized Him. However, we have now recognized Him and been grafted into all the promises and blessings and have been given more; joy unspeakable, the peace that passes understanding, the absolute assurance of salvation and more. Because of that, until our dying breath we will profess the Truth; we will testify of Him with every ounce of strength we have because we know that He has the same things available for you when you recognize Him. And yes, that has been prophesied as well! ;)

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Baruch HaShem Adonai! :pp

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 11:56 AM
Isaiah 53:1-4
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

Um. Jews believe that the 'suffering servant' is the Jewish people, and chapter 53 (really the end of 52 as well) is written from the perspective of the gentile nations. Just FYI.;)

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 11:59 AM
Um. Jews believe that the 'suffering servant' is the Jewish people, and chapter 53 (really the end of 52 as well) is written from the perspective of the gentile nations. Just FYI.;)I know what Jewish people have been taught to think, but the words are what they are an when read without preconceived notions like this, the WORDS speak for themselves! ;) BTW, you simply asked why they would miss it and I was pointing out the prophesy.
Shalom!

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 12:03 PM
I know what Jewish people have been taught to thinkSigh. More of the 'the rabbis brainwashed us and we're zombies' talk?


but the words are what they are an when read without preconceived notions like this, the WORDS speak for themselves!Yes, they sure do. Obviously they say different things to different people, though.


BTW, you simply asked why they would miss it and I was pointing out the prophesy.

Shalom!From your point of view, yep.;)

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 12:06 PM
Also, Israel is His wife, the nation is spoken of as a woman. This speaks clearly of a Man.
Israel is also a son. And, in this case, a servant. The book of Isaiah refers to 'Israel, my servant' no less than four times.



It also in many places says WE. This was not written by Gentiles to say we did not believe, but by a Jew that said WE meaning the Jews did not believe. The Jews (We) hid our faces.It is written from the gentile perspective. So we believe.


Shalom!

peace.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 12:23 PM
Sigh. More of the 'the rabbis brainwashed us and we're zombies' talk?

Yes, they sure do. Obviously they say different things to different people, though.

From your point of view, yep.;)Is that what you think? That we believe the rabbis 'brainwashed' you? That we believe Jews are 'zombies'? How sad! :cry: Not 'brainwashing' but misinterpretation perpetuated. If a captain on a ship gets only one degree off course as he is navigating from Europe to the US, he will end up in a very different place than he may have intended to end up. Not that he did it purposefully, but an error is an error IF NOT CORRECTED. When you look at the text of Isaiah 53, it just does not fit the nation as a whole. You can try to make it mean the nation but there are too many red flags that this is 'off course'.

Israel is His wife, the nation is spoken of as a woman. Israel and Judah are spoken of as sisters. This speaks clearly of a Man. It also in many places says WE. This was not written by Gentiles to say we did not believe, but by a Jew that said WE meaning the Jews did not believe. We (The Jews) hid our faces. When we (the Jews) see Him, we (the Jews) will not desire Him. Take the time to look at every WE in the chapter and there is NO WAY you can see it without recognizing that it IS the Jews that are being prophesied to 'miss the boat' so to speak. Not to worry, the boat is still at the dock. Though one may be 'off course' one can always go back to where they started to get on the right track. :idea: BTW, one would only be 'zombies' if they choose NOT to seek what God intended in His Word here. Pray! Ask the Father for revelation and clarity. Remove your preconceived ideas and whatever you think mine are. THEN read it!

Baruch HaShem!

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 12:27 PM
Israel is also a son. And, in this case, a servant. The book of Isaiah refers to 'Israel, my servant' no less than four times.

It is written from the gentile perspective. So we believe.

peace.I was unaware that you believe all Jews are bearing my iniquity. :rolleyes:

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 12:31 PM
I was unaware that you believe all Jews are bearing my iniquity. :rolleyes:

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.Let me run this by you:

We believe that the Jews alone are capable of ushering in the messianic era. In the messianic era, there will be no more sin. Since we have not brought the messiah yet, technically any sin by a gentile is indirectly our fault. So yes, we do bear your sin. And maybe that is why tragedies like the Holocaust happen.

Just something to think about...

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 12:37 PM
Is that what you think? That we believe the rabbis 'brainwashed' you? That we believe Jews are 'zombies'? How sad! :cry: Not 'brainwashing' but misinterpretation perpetuated. Maybe. Or maybe we're right. It's really impossible to prove, either way.


Israel is His wife, the nation is spoken of as a woman. Israel and Judah are spoken of as sisters. This speaks clearly of a Man.
Not always.

Isaiah 41:8-9 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.


Isaiah 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen...Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant...


Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

Isaiah 49:3 ...Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


It also in many places says WE.
The end of chapter 52:13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men-- 15 So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive.
Which rolls right into chapter 53:1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed? Which is, of course, the startled gentile kings.

At least, that is one way of looking at it.


Remove your preconceived ideas and whatever you think mine are. THEN read it!

We ALL have preconceived notions. It is impossible to separate our mind from our experiences. I'm just trying to show that there is another way of looking at the bible, which is just as consistent and sensible as yours.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 12:40 PM
Let me run this by you. Do you think our LORD has but one servant?

Isaiah 42:18-20
18 “ Hear, you deaf;
And look, you blind, that you may see.
19 Who is blind but My servant,
Or deaf as My messenger whom I send?
Who is blind as he who is perfect,
And blind as the LORD’s servant?
20 Seeing many things, but you do not observe;
Opening the ears, but he does not hear.”

What of this servant's blindness and deafness? Yes, Israel has been His servant, His messenger but they have been blind and deaf, but this will not be forever. As Zechariah 12:10 states, they will look on Him whom they pierced.

Blessing!

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 12:51 PM
Let me run this by you. Do you think our LORD has but one servant?

Isaiah 42:18-20
18 “ Hear, you deaf;
And look, you blind, that you may see.
19 Who is blind but My servant,
Or deaf as My messenger whom I send?
Who is blind as he who is perfect,
And blind as the LORD’s servant?
20 Seeing many things, but you do not observe;
Opening the ears, but he does not hear.”

What of this servant's blindness and deafness? Yes, Israel has been His servant, His messenger but they have been blind and deaf, but this will not be forever.Yes, the Jews were bad in Isaiah's time. And they were punished; the Temple was destroyed and they were sent into exile. But 70 years later they repented and the Temple was rebuilt. Don't mistake a verse about one time for a verse about all time.



As Zechariah 12:10 states, they will look on Him whom they pierced.
We don't find the context to be proper for Jesus. For one thing, the chapter refers to the war against Israel, which did not happen in Jesus's day. Secondly, the Jews as a people did not mourn when Jesus died. There is also a problem with he translation because the word isn't 'pierced' but more of 'thrust through' as though stabbed with a sword.




Blessing!

And to you.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 01:05 PM
Yes, the Jews were bad in Isaiah's time. And they were punished; the Temple was destroyed and they were sent into exile. But 70 years later they repented and the Temple was rebuilt. Don't mistake a verse about one time for a verse about all time.

We don't find the context to be proper for Jesus. For one thing, the chapter refers to the war against Israel, which did not happen in Jesus's day. Secondly, the Jews as a people did not mourn when Jesus died. There is also a problem with he translation because the word isn't 'pierced' but more of 'thrust through' as though stabbed with a sword.Hence the nature of prophecy. So, Fenris, you say the Jews in Isaiah's time were bad. What of the Jews now? :hmm: As many as 90% are atheist, agnostic, or just simply not religious at all! What of the Jews of Yeshua's time just a few decades before the destruction of the 2nd Temple? If it only took 70 years of punishment for them to be restored to the land and eventually for the Temple to be rebuilt, why have nearly two millennia gone by? How 'bad' would that imply that they had been? How much punishment is that? :o

Fenris, do you not understand that prophesy need not be in the past? Of course they didn't mourn Him THEN. It is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. They WILL mourn once they recognize Him and realize that for so long they despised the One to whom they had been commanded by Moses to listen. ;)

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 01:13 PM
Hence the nature of prophecy. So, Fenris, you say the Jews in Isaiah's time were bad. What of the Jews now? :hmm: As many as 90% are atheist, agnostic, or just simply not religious at all! Yep, that's also bad. But I don't think Jews becoming Christian is desirable either.


What of the Jews of Yeshua's time just a few decades before the destruction of the 2nd Temple? If it only took 70 years of punishment for them to be restored to the land and eventually for the Temple to be rebuilt, why have nearly two millennia gone by? How 'bad' would that imply that they had been? How much punishment is that? :o
The first Temple was destroyed because of idolatry. When the Jews repented of that, it was rebuilt. The second Temple was destroyed because Jews hated each other, and we obviously haven't repented of that, yet. We aren't in exile because of what the generation of the destruction did; we're in exile because THIS GENERATION does not deserve redemption.


Fenris, do you not understand that prophesy need not be in the past? Of course they didn't mourn Him THEN. It is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled. They WILL mourn once they recognize Him and realize that for so long they despised the One to whom they had been commanded by Moses to listen. ;)And you do understand that there are other ways of interpreting the bible that are just as logical and self consistent, don't you?

slightlypuzzled
Sep 21st 2007, 02:05 PM
WE are the Pharisees.

I believe you are the first practicing Jew who has ever said that to me.


This statement is deeper than you know. You've hit on a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity here, namely thus: In Christianity, the messiah is part of the process for overcoming evil. In Judaism, we believe that God already gave us the tools for overcoming evil, his Torah. The messiah is the reward when we do overcome it, on a national level.

Is that was you mean by saying, 'We are the Pharisees'?


We believe that the Jews alone are capable of ushering in the messianic era. In the messianic era, there will be no more sin. Since we have not brought the messiah yet, technically any sin by a gentile is indirectly our fault. So yes, we do bear your sin. And maybe that is why tragedies like the Holocaust happen.

Now this I find eminently intriguing. I don't think a first century Pharisee would have put it quite that way, but I could be totally wrong.


The first Temple was destroyed because of idolatry. When the Jews repented of that, it was rebuilt. The second Temple was destroyed because Jews hated each other, and we obviously haven't repented of that, yet. We aren't in exile because of what the generation of the destruction did; we're in exile because THIS GENERATION does not deserve redemption.

Does anyone deserve it? But, I do see your point, given what you have said in the first two quotes. You are saying that you earn the redemption first?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 02:10 PM
I believe you are the first practicing Jew who has ever said that to me.Any religious Jew will say pretty much the same thing.




Now this I find eminently intriguing. I don't think a first century Pharisee would have put it quite that way, but I could be totally wrong.It is my perception of the situation, especially given the Jew's responsibility to repair the world.




Does anyone deserve it? But, I do see your point, given what you have said in the first two quotes. You are saying that you earn the redemption first?

Yes, we overcome evil using the tools God provided. When that happens, we get the reward of the messiah. See Deuteronomy 30.

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 02:44 PM
If that is so why did the Jews not recognize it as a fulfillment of a prophecy?Take a look at Peter's first sermon at this event in which 3,000 believed and were saved at that time:

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost
(Acts 2:1-41 KJV) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. {2} And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. {3} And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. {4} And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. {5} And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. {6} Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. {7} And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? {8} And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? {9} Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, {10} Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, {11} Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. {12} And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? {13} Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Peter Addresses the Crowd
{14} But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: {15} For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. {16} But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; {17} And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: {18} And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: {19} And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: {20} The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: {21} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. {22} Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: {23} Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: {24} Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. {25} For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: {26} Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: {27} Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. {28} Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. {29} Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. {30} Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; {31} He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. {32} This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {33} Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {34} For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {35} Until I make thy foes thy footstool. {36} Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. {37} Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? {38} Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {39} For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. {40} And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. {41} Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 02:53 PM
Take a look at Peter's first sermon at this event in which 3,000 believed and were saved at that time:

Uh, yeah...
The original verse is completely ignored from the rest of the chapter, however.

Listen, I just want you to take away from this that what's 'obvious' to some isn't obvious to to others at all.

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 02:57 PM
Uh, yeah...
The original verse is completely ignored from the rest of the chapter, however.

Listen, I just want you to take away from this that what's 'obvious' to some isn't obvious to to others at all.Yes that is all too true. Those who were delivered from Egypt had a similar problem with unbelief.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 02:59 PM
Yep, that's also bad. But I don't think Jews becoming Christian is desirable either.

And you do understand that there are other ways of interpreting the bible that are just as logical and self consistent, don't you?That's where you have missed the point. Jews have no need to 'become' Christian to recognize their Messiah. No need at all to change your religion, but rather to fulfill it. ;)

You do understand that logic has very little to do with faith. That which is righteous is often not logical. With that said, scripture must be interpreted considering the pattern God has given us to follow. With that understanding you can see that according to scripture the Jews were not chosen because they were the smartest or the strongest or even the most righteous, but rather because of the FAITH of Abraham. And BTW, you must not be aware that Yeshua WAS thrust through, not simply pierced only. ;) I meant to mention that before but I guess I got distracted. :D

John 19:32-37
32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. 36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

Fenris, it is NOT our intent to pervert the Hebrew scriptures, but rather to embrace them as God has always intended for the Gentiles to do.

Blessings!

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 02:59 PM
Yes that is all too true. Those who were delivered from Egypt had a similar problem with unbelief.I don't have 'unbelief'. I simply believe something different than you do.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 03:00 PM
This statement is deeper than you know. You've hit on a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity here, namely thus: In Christianity, the messiah is part of the process for overcoming evil. In Judaism, we believe that God already gave us the tools for overcoming evil, his Torah. The messiah is the reward when we do overcome it, on a national level.

The Messiah is "part of the process for overcoming evil". That is news to me. Jesus said "repent" and prepare for the kingdom. (I do understand, as your likely referring to western theology of original sin, a concept foreign to eastern Christianity)

To me the Messiah, Jesus Christ, depicts in His humanity the fulfillment of perfect human worship.

I agree with you that God already gave us the means/tools to repent. The Messiah showed us that the passions of the flesh can be overcome with prayer.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:03 PM
That's where you have missed the point. Jews have no need to 'become' Christian to recognize their Messiah. No need at all to change your religion, but rather to fulfill it. ;)And as I have said before, Christianity causes problems in Jewish theology. If I believed in Jesus as the messiah I could no longer remain Jewish.


You do understand that logic has very little to do with faith. That which is righteous is often not logical. With that said, scripture must be interpreted considering the pattern God has given us to follow. With that understand you can see that according to scripture the Jews were not chosen because they were the smartest or the strongest or even the most righteous, but rather because of the FAITH of Abraham. Yes, we can agree on why God chose the Jews- because He loved the patriarchs and swore a promise to them. I fail to see an obvious connection the Christianity though.




And BTW, you must not be aware that Yeshua WAS thrust through, not simply pierced only. ;) I meant to mention that before but I guess I got distracted. :DRight, but that isn't the only problem with the events. But anyway...

Fenris, it is NOT our intent to pervert the Hebrew scriptures, but rather to embrace them as God has always intended for the Gentiles to do.

I realize that your intentions are pure. So are those of the Jews.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:04 PM
The Messiah is "part of the process for overcoming evil". That is news to me. Jesus said "repent" and prepare for the kingdom. (I do understand, as your likely referring to western theology of original sin, a concept foreign to eastern Christianity)Then why is his sacrifice necessary to enter heaven?




I agree with you that God already gave us the means/tools to repent. I agree. But then again, why is Jesus necessary?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 03:18 PM
And as I have said before, Christianity causes problems in Jewish theology. If I believed in Jesus as the messiah I could no longer remain Jewish. I believe more and more Jews are recognizing that they do not need to change religions or to renounce one jot or tittle from TaNaKh. Jewish theology should be to do the will of our heavenly Father. The Father said He would send another and that we should LISTEN to Him. Not once did Yeshua say to change religions. Everything He said and did was to glorify the Father and lead those who were lost to Him. I'm just curious, have you had anyone in your family turn to Yeshua?

God Bless!

literaryjoe
Sep 21st 2007, 03:19 PM
At what point did Judaism evolve to the point at where acceptance of Jesus becomes impossible according to the common understanding?The shift began at Yavneh circa 90 C.E. It continued to evolve as more and more Gentiles streamed into the Christian faith and as proto-rabbinic Judaism and proto-Catholic Christianity increasingly defined themselves in opposition to one another.

I am convinced that the beginning of the shift happened without malicious intent. In other words, the motivation of the tannaim at Yavneh was not to oppose nascent Christianity but to preserve Judaism, which was threatened as a continuing orthopraxy by the worldwide diaspora and the destruction of the Temple, which had previously functioned as the epicenter of Judaism. (By "worldwide diaspora" I mean that rather than being dispersed as a body to Babylon/Persia, the Jews were now dispersed throughout the entire civilized world.)

On the other hand, the drive to define itself in opposition to Judaism by proto-Catholic Christianity was too often motivated by racial and/or social prejudice. However, we must give the benefit of the doubt to many of those moves as well.

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 03:23 PM
I don't have 'unbelief'. I simply believe something different than you do.It was the children of the Exodus who received the promise, while those who witnessed the miraculous deliverance of God fell in the wilderness because of their unbelief. Israel witnessed the arrival of Messiah which some received and others rejected. Jesus came in fulfillment of the prophecies written about Him. Prophecies which you deny are even about Messiah, while I believe the apostles' eyewitness testimony that Jesus fulfilled them. As a result I have the Promise which the Father sent while you are still walking in the darkness of tradition.

You however celebrate Passover because you believe the testimony of the witnesses which have been recorded. Why believe Moses in that and not in the things he said were coming?

God confirmed Moses with miraculous signs:
(Exo 4:1 KJV) And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

(Exo 14:31 KJV) And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

(Exo 19:9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

(Num 14:11-12 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have showed among them? {12} I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

(Num 20:12 KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

(John 5:46-47 KJV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. {47} But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It would seem that even the children of those who received the promise thru Joshuah still struggle with believing Moses - about the Joshuah who was coming to bring the fullness of their redemption and settled just for the land instead.

Yes I can see that you believe something different and in doing so reject the promise that was first given to you - and that by Moses.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:23 PM
I believe more and more Jews are recognizing that they do not need to change religions or to renounce one jot or tittle from TaNaKh. Jewish theology should be to do the will of our heavenly Father. The Father said He would send another and that we should LISTEN to Him. Not once did Yeshua say to change religions. Everything He said and did was to glorify the Father and lead those who were lost to Him.You didn't read a thing I just said, did you? :giveup:



I'm just curious, have you had anyone in your family turn to Yeshua?

God Bless!
Ah, negative on that.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 03:25 PM
It is my perception of the situation, especially given the Jew's responsibility to repair the world.

Yes, we overcome evil using the tools God provided. When that happens, we get the reward of the messiah. See Deuteronomy 30.If it is the Jews job to repair the world (big job BTW), and it is the Jews reward to receive Messiah after this is done, what need would God have to have told Moses there was One coming and that they should listen to Him when He comes? If the Messiah is the reward for already fixing everything, what need would there be for more instructions. :hmm:

You didn't read a thing I just said, did you? :giveup:I could say the very same thing!

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:25 PM
The shift began at Yavneh circa 90 C.E. It continued to evolve as more and more Gentiles streamed into the Christian faith and as proto-rabbinic Judaism and proto-Catholic Christianity increasingly defined themselves in opposition to one another.


Hmm, that's an interesting viewpoint. It's a bit later, historically, than I would have guessed though. I mean, if Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies as they were understood at the time, there would be no Jews left. That's why an earlier date would make more sense.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:27 PM
It was the children of the Exodus who received the promise, while those who witnessed the miraculous deliverance of God fell in the wilderness because of their unbelief. Israel witnessed the arrival of Messiah which some received and others rejected. Jesus came in fulfillment of the prophecies written about Him. Prophecies which you deny are even about Messiah, while I believe the apostles' eyewitness testimony that Jesus fulfilled them. As a result I have the Promise which the Father sent while you are still walking in the darkness of tradition.

You however celebrate Passover because you believe the testimony of the witnesses which have been recorded. Why believe Moses in that and not in the things he said were coming?

God confirmed Moses with miraculous signs:
(Exo 4:1 KJV) And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.

(Exo 14:31 KJV) And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

(Exo 19:9 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

(Num 14:11-12 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have showed among them? {12} I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

(Num 20:12 KJV) And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

(John 5:46-47 KJV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. {47} But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It would seem that even the children of those who received the promise thru Josuah still struggle with believing Moses - about the Joshuah who was coming to bring the fullness of their redemption and settled just for the land instead.

Yes I can see that you believe something different and in doing so reject the promise that was first given to you - and that by Moses.Pretty much because of the OP: because we read our bible differently that you do and have different expectations of what God is and what is expected of us. I don't believe that the differences can be reconciled.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:30 PM
If it is the Jews job to repair the world (big job BTW), and it is the Jews reward to receive Messiah after this is done, what need would God have to have told Moses there was One coming and that they should listen to Him when He comes? If the Messiah is the reward for already fixing everything, what need would there be for more instructions. :hmm:read the context where messianic prophecies are involved. God is simply saying, "Do what you are supposed to and the bad things will end".
No where are we told to believe in the messiah- it will be obvious. An ingathering of the exiles, an end to war, universal knowledge of God...

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 03:34 PM
Pretty much because of the OP: because we read our bible differently that you do and have different expectations of what God is and what is expected of us. I don't believe that the differences can be reconciled.I don't believe they can either. That is why Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness - because he believed that God would do what He promised. Even if meant raising Isaac from dead to keep it! All that is needed for believing faith is found right there in the scriptures. You really owe it to yourself to read the new testament. At least then, you will know what it is you are rejecting.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:36 PM
I don't believe they can either. That is why Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness - because he believed that God would do what He promised. Even if meant raising Isaac from dead to keep it! All that is needed for believing faith is found right there in the scriptures.I also have faith that everything God does is for the best. One can believe that and be of a different religion, you know.


You really owe it to yourself to read the new testament. At least then, you will know what it is you are rejecting.
Believe it or not, I have.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 03:40 PM
Hmm, that's an interesting viewpoint. It's a bit later, historically, than I would have guessed though. I mean, if Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies as they were understood at the time, there would be no Jews left. That's why an earlier date would make more sense.That why understanding that He came first to be the suffering Servant (fits it to a T) and on His return He will be coming as the Conquering King is so important. This is when the Jews will see Him and recognize Him as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies. This is when I believe ALL will finally 'GET IT'! Many learned Jews before Yeshua wondered how it could be that this Conquering Messiah could be the Suffering Messiah in scripture. There were many that believed there would thus be two messiahs. God in His infinite wisdom needed only One to fulfill both aspects. Many Pharisees and contemporaries of the apostle Shaul (Paul) did come to accept Yeshua as Messiah after searching the scriptures. Just as many are coming to accept Him today.

All to the glory of Adonai! :pp

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:46 PM
That why understanding that He came first to be the suffering Servant (fits it to a T) and on His return He will be coming as the Conquering King is so important. This is when the Jews will see Him and recognize Him as Zechariah 12:10 prophesies. This is when I believe ALL will finally 'GET IT'! Well, it's an amusing thought that gentiles will recognize the Jewish messiah before Jews do...


Many learned Jews before Yeshua wondered how it could be that this Conquering Messiah could be the Suffering Messiah in scripture.Really? I'm not aware of any discussions on the subject at all. The 'suffering messiah' concept is not a Jewish one. Maybe, as per the OP, it's one of the ways we went astray...;)


Just as many are coming to accept Him today.

The Jews who are becoming Christian are generally ignorant of Judaism. If I am offending anyone here by saying that, allow me to apologize now.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 03:51 PM
Then why is his sacrifice necessary to enter heaven?


I agree. But then again, why is Jesus necessary?

Jesus is God, the High Priest for us. He is the new creation, the God-Man, which unites heaven and earth, the created (creature man) with the uncreated (God).

Adam is our first type of a priest in scripture. Adam is unable by himself to bring humanity to perfect worship in the flesh. Death, or mans mortality is his end. But God overcomes death, which is also, what causes mankind to sin. This is where western theology diverges from eastern. In eastern thought, death is the condition man is faced with, sin is merely symptoms of that condition.

Healing from God is in the overcoming of death, the condition. The result is right worship, which is what humanity was created for. That being, a communion, or synergy, in which beginning with God, God gives to man, and man gives back to God in a truly loving relationship of communion and thanksgiving.

Eastern Christianity agrees with your line of thinking in healing the world with God. Christians are suppose to be the bearers of God to the world in their being the Body of Christ. This is so because of the Incarnation, in which God took upon Himself mortal flesh.

The Resurrection of mortal flesh by God in Jesus Chriist, is what makes possible a final judgment of all. As all will be resurrected for a final judgment. Man now stands before God without excuse. God has provided everything, and joined the earthly and heavenly worship in Jesus Christ, High Priest.

One has to see Christ in the light of worship and as a Priest to understand Him.

You should understand this best because you understand the office of Priest.

In line with the teachings of Christ as our great High Priest in the Epistle to the Hebrews, Christ's Immolation on the Cross was sacrificial (the office of a priest), latreutic (worshipful), and soterial (verse 2:3): Our Savior's human life itself constituted a victory over the world (2:8), death, (2:9, 14), and the devil (2:14).

Jesus's Suffering on the Cross, was especially soterial (2:10), but would have no value as Immolation (ceremonial mactation) unless Anaphora or Oblation (offering) followed as the point of sacrificing. (The Book of Hebrews uses anaphérein "offer"--just as the Orthodox still do.) Christians view our Savior's Suffering (Passion) and Death as a propitiating or atoning Immolation. But the Crucifixion, perfect in Itself, was not all there was to Christ's humiliation. Of His Incarnation, Hebrew 2:17 says: ". . . it was needful for Him to become like [his] brothers in all [respects], in order that He might also become a compassionate and faithful high Priest with regard to things pertaining to God for the sake of atoning for the sins of the people." The following verse adds: "For in that He has suffered, He Himself having been tested [or tempted], He is able to give aid to those being tested [or tempted; cf. verse 15]." Subsequently, He entered His rest (4:10), a rest we are to strive to enter (4:11).

It is hard for a Western Christian to think in this ancient Greek-language, Hebrew-dominated framework. Since Protestants do not typically define a priest as a sacrificer.

So you see, eastern thought doesn't see Christ as a sacrifice like the animals of the OT. But as THE Priest who is doing the offering for us. Meaning God Himself, who offers freedom and life to all humanity.

There is much more to the ontological aspects of Christ. This is just a general summary to give you some idea of what is understood about Jesus Christ in eastern thought, which is more in line with your understanding of scripture.:)

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 03:55 PM
There is much more to the ontological aspects of Christ. This is just a general summary to give you some idea of what is understood about Jesus Christ in eastern thought, which is more in line with your understanding of scripture.:)

Yes, from discussions I have had with Orthodox Christians I have the feeling that we are closer in beliefs than those of the Catholic or Protestant sects. Still, even your beliefs run into problems from the traditional Jewish viewpoint and theology.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 04:02 PM
Yes, from discussions I have had with Orthodox Christians I have the feeling that we are closer in beliefs than those of the Catholic or Protestant sects. Still, even your beliefs run into problems from the traditional Jewish viewpoint and theology.

Problems such as what? Cultural differences?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 04:04 PM
Problems such as what? Cultural differences?No, nothing like that. Primarily, the issue is that Jews believe in the absolute unity of God and that the Law is permanent.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 04:24 PM
No, nothing like that. Primarily, the issue is that Jews believe in the absolute unity of God and that the Law is permanent.

We believe in the absolute unity of God and that law is permanent. But when you say "law" you mean the laws culturally associated with the religion of Judaism. Which are more like 'canons' of Judaism, right, ie. fences.

Christianity holds canons as well, but they are more guidelines than what is understood as "law" in the west. Law must be enforced to be literally law in the western understanding.

So Christians keep hours of prayer, and fast days and feasts in accordance with the Church. But if anyone is not able to keep these absolutely, they are not put in jail because they broke a law. So canons are more like prescriptions for health, than juridical as in a court of law. As mercy is also to be dispensed in them as well.

I'm sure you understand this. As you do not literally go to jail for not holding to your laws (or established canons/guidelines), right.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 04:30 PM
We believe in the absolute unity of God
If Jesus is God and God is God, then technically you don't. This is actually one respect where Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is.


But when you say "law" you mean the laws culturally associated with the religion of Judaism. Which are more like 'canons' of Judaism, right, ie. fences.Well...I don't think that the laws in the bible are either canons or fences; they are simply what God desires us to do.




I'm sure you understand this. As you do not literally go to jail for not holding to your laws (or established canons/guidelines), right.Well, that would be difficult, considering that they had no jails during the biblical era. :lol: But it is true that Jewish law was not merely religious law, it was also civil and criminal law; i.e. it was a set of laws that could be used to run a country in an orderly fashion. But since they come from God they also have the benefit of increasing the spirituality of the doer, and the world at large.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 05:07 PM
If Jesus is God and God is God, then technically you don't. This is actually one respect where Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is.

Then perhaps there is some misunderstanding of Genesis. How do you understand Eve in that story?

If God can create man, and then take the woman from the man, why can't He also take of a woman (her flesh) in His Incarnation?
It would seem to deny the first (Genesis) occurred, woman being taken from man (man who cannot reproduce independently, nor as a woman), is also to deny the second, the Incarnation of God in flesh.

Anything is possible with God. He can manifest to us in any manner He chooses.

Do you think that He could not be fully God and fully human at the same time? He is God.


Well...I don't think that the laws in the bible are either canons or fences; they are simply what God desires us to do.

Agreed. And from them, structural authorities such as religions, derive their understanding. For the Church of Christianity, they do not mean we control the world as in policing it for God. They are more understood in a spiritual sense for spiritual growth into a good conscience before God.


Well, that would be difficult, considering that they had no jails during the biblical era. :lol: But it is true that Jewish law was not merely religious law, it was also civil and criminal law; i.e. it was a set of laws that could be used to run a country in an orderly fashion. But since they come from God they also have the benefit of increasing the spirituality of the doer, and the world at large.

Culturally Israel is a special case in history, as they were to be a kingdom of priests. One can read of the Kings of Israel and how their prayers were heard and answered by God as priests, the Kings also represented priests to God.

No one, not even an atheist will tell you that the teachings of Jesus and scripture are morally incorrect.

We all have that "inner man" (noetic) which is moral and of God. But we do not all live in the same culture or time to have the same civil laws.
The US bases much of their civil law on morals of scripture. But they govern themselves, meaning structure of government, like the Native American Indians did. We have a chief (president) and a council (congress). And all the people have a say in what is done. ie. by the people for the people

You could say we are all tribal.:D But one tribe doesn't have rule over another. That wouldn't be freedom or liberty.
So even within that structure, there is even more diversity, as the chief and council also do not rule everything. States also have different laws within that same structure. Such as where I live, my state is under what is known as Napoleonic law or code. And so legally, we can do things a bit different than the other states with "law".

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 05:12 PM
Then perhaps there is some misunderstanding of Genesis. How do you understand Eve in that story?

If God can create man, and then take the woman from the man, why can't He also take of a woman (her flesh) in His Incarnation?
It would seem to deny the first (Genesis) occurred, woman being taken from man (man who cannot reproduce independently, nor as a woman), is also to deny the second, the Incarnation of God in flesh.Man is not God. Man can have children, grow old and die. None of these things can happen to God.


Anything is possible with God. He can manifest to us in any manner He chooses.

Do you think that He could not be fully God and fully human at the same time? He is God.Eh, Jews do not see it this way. God could no more fit into a human body than the ocean could fit in my bathtub. God does not exist within our universe; our universe exists within God.




Culturally Israel is a special case in history, as they were to be a kingdom of priests. One can read of the Kings of Israel and how their prayers were heard and answered by God as priests, the Kings also represented priests to God.No argument. Also, God does not expect everyone in the world to keep the Torah; that is our job alone.


No one, not even an atheist will tell you that the teachings of Jesus and scripture are morally incorrect. No, of course not. But none of Jesus's moral teachings were new to the Jews; he preached as a Pharisee rabbi would.



You could say we are all tribal.:D But one tribe doesn't have rule over another. That wouldn't be freedom or liberty.Well, we all have to make our own contributions to the greater good.

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 05:30 PM
Man is not God. Man can have children, grow old and die. None of these things can happen to God.

But God can choose to experience them with us. He is not limited to only what we think about Him.



Eh, Jews do not see it this way. God could no more fit into a human body than the ocean could fit in my bathtub. God does not exist within our universe; our universe exists within God.

Doesn't scripture say that God is Spirit. How does one size up spirit?
And what does scripture say about His Word, "Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
The mouth and heart are of the human body. So how close is God to humanity.:hmm: Close enough to come in human form and transfigure humanity....



Well, we all have to make our own contributions to the greater good.

Amen. :yes::agree:

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 05:33 PM
But God can choose to experience them with us. He is not limited to only what we think about Him.
God does experience life with us, because a spark of Him is within us. But He is also perfect and unchanging.



Doesn't scripture say that God is Spirit. How does one size up spirit?
And what does scripture say about His Word, "Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
The mouth and heart are of the human body. So how close is God to humanity.:hmm: Close enough to come in human form and transfigure humanity....I would say that means that we all have an element of the Divine with us. Obviously others will interpret it differently.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 05:42 PM
The Jews who are becoming Christian are generally ignorant of Judaism. If I am offending anyone here by saying that, allow me to apologize now.Well, Shaul was a Pharisee who studied under Gamaliel (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=51&letter=G), grandson of Hillel. There is no need to assume that a Jew would need to be ignorant of TaNaKh to recognize their Messiah. ;)

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 05:44 PM
Well, Shaul was a Pharisee who studied under Gamaliel (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=51&letter=G), grandson of Hillel.
Well, so he claims. Funny that none of Gamliel's other students came to the same conclusions he did. From my perspective, anyway.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 06:52 PM
Well, so he claims. Funny that none of Gamliel's other students came to the same conclusions he did. From my perspective, anyway.Who says that no others did? Paul just happens to be well published! :lol: Anyway, it was not his head knowledge that brought him to faith in Yeshua as Messiah. Nor was it that knowledge that kept him from accepting Him. Once he came face to face with Him on the road to Damascus, it was at that point that he began to reconcile what he had been taught from scripture. This is when he recognized that Yeshua was indeed the long awaited Messiah. My point was simply that one need not be a novice to Judaism to accept Messiah. There have been Jews through the centuries that have come to faith in Messiah without being coerced or in any way tricked into it. They have searched the scripture and come to a different conclusion than the one you have come to.

Baruch HaShem!

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 07:09 PM
God does experience life with us, because a spark of Him is within us. But He is also perfect and unchanging.

I agree. But I can also see how He could 'literally' experience that first hand in the flesh, and not only spirit.


I would say that means that we all have an element of the Divine with us. Obviously others will interpret it differently.

I agree. As we are created in His image and likeness.
But that element of the Divine within us doesn't operate without us. We are not of two natures such as Christ is. We cannot just take of the Divine without help from the Divine. Jesus being both Divine and Human, was able to both lay down His life and also pick it up again, because God is life.

God is a mystery to us. Christians explore that through Jesus and all He has shown us (humans are relational beings, seeing is believing to us in the flesh). And we continue to do so in searching the deep things of God.

Two were joined into one= God-Man- Incarnation
Jesus' Transfiguration on the mount, witnessed by His Apostles, is a transforming of humanity and creation, in God. (as you said, all creation exists in God)
As our King and Priest He forgave us for our sins of ignorance on the cross, which was the finished work for humanity. ie. the earthly
And His Resurrection completed the offering to God of humanity. ie. the heavenly

Salvation is a means, worship is the end. It's up to each of us to ascend to God in worship. The meaning of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Talks still to date continue in the eastern churches on Christ. The Syrian (or Oriental) Orthodox and Eastern (Chalcedonian) Orthodox


On the essence of the Christological dogma we found ourselves in full agreement.' In the words of the Bristol (1964) consultation, 'Some of us affirm two natures, wills and energies hypostatically united in the one Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us affirm one united divine-human nature, will and energy in the same Christ. But both sides speak of a union without confusion, without change, without divisions, without separation.' The four adverbs belong to our common tradition. Both affirm the dynamic permanence of the Godhead and the Manhood, with all their natural properties and faculties, in the one Christ.'

http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/index.htm

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 07:41 PM
Who says that no others did? Paul just happens to be well published! :lol: Anyway, it was not his head knowledge that brought him to faith in Yeshua as Messiah. Nor was it that knowledge that kept him from accepting Him. Once he came face to face with Him on the road to Damascus, it was at that point that he began to reconcile what he had been taught from scripture. If I had a visit from God that might also change my mind. But then, if a visit from God is necessary for someone who already knows the bible to see the truth, the whole thing is moot anyway. Why give someone a book and tell them to study it if it can't lead them to the truth without divine intervention?

I think, historically, the number of religious Jews who converted to Christianity is minimal. Obviously it's because we believe that we're right. What other conclusions can be drawn from that I can't say.

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 07:43 PM
As our King and Priest He forgave us for our sins of ignorance on the cross,
Jews see this as unnecessary.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 08:10 PM
If I had a visit from God that might also change my mind. But then, if a visit from God is necessary for someone who already knows the bible to see the truth, the whole thing is moot anyway. Why give someone a book and tell them to study it if it can't lead them to the truth without divine intervention?

I think, historically, the number of religious Jews who converted to Christianity is minimal. Obviously it's because we believe that we're right. What other conclusions can be drawn from that I can't say.See, now it is you that is clearly not reading what I have said. It IS the Book that led Him once he realized he was somehow missing something. Before that he was stuck on tradition, much like you. ;) Once, his mind opened to the possibility that his tradition might be in some ways 'off course' so to speak, he was able to use his knowledge of scripture to show that they pointed directly to Yeshua.

BTW, who is the Jewish high priest now. Cohen HaGadol is now of no importance to you as a Jew?

Fenris
Sep 21st 2007, 08:27 PM
See, now it is you that is clearly not reading what I have said. It IS the Book that led Him once he realized he was somehow missing something. Before that he was stuck on tradition, much like you. ;) Once, his mind opened to the possibility that his tradition might be in some ways 'off course' so to speak, he was able to use his knowledge of scripture to show that they pointed directly to Yeshua.If God came to me it might open my mind a bit too, hey?;)


BTW, who is the Jewish high priest now. Cohen HaGadol is now of no importance to you as a Jew?

No Temple, no High Priest. There was a 70 year gap between the first and second temples, with no high priest, no sacrifices. Yet God forgave the Jews and brought them back from exile. And that will happen again.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 08:37 PM
If I had a visit from God that might also change my mind. But then, if a visit from God is necessary for someone who already knows the bible to see the truth, the whole thing is moot anyway. Why give someone a book and tell them to study it if it can't lead them to the truth without divine intervention?

I suppose some folks need this kind of treatment to have their eyes opened :lol:

Each child is different and responds differently to the same kind of treatment or words.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Studyin'2Show
Sep 21st 2007, 09:01 PM
If God came to me it might open my mind a bit too, hey?;)Then we will pray that He will, hey! :D Just make sure you're listening!

God Bless!

Teke
Sep 21st 2007, 09:11 PM
Jews see this as unnecessary.

I don't see why, whether Jews believe Him a mere man or God. We ask God to forgive us and we ask one another to forgive us. We all make mistakes.:)

Naphal
Sep 21st 2007, 11:23 PM
If Jesus is God and God is God, then technically you don't. This is actually one respect where Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is.


Psalms 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Why do you suppose there is a mention of God as a rock and then a high God who is a redeemer? In the NT we are told that Jesus was the rock and thus then that his Father who is God is his God making the Father a higher God.

I know it looks on a simple level that there are two God's and even in the Psalms that this is shown but it's really two beings that share one Godhood. So one God but two persons. This is found first in the old testament and then in greater detail in the new testament.

tgallison
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:18 AM
586 BC? (the destruction of the First Temple)
516 BC? (building of the Second Temple)
500-300 BC? (Great Assembly)
4 BC? (Birth of Jesus, give or take a few years)
30 AD? (Sermon on the mount)
33 AD? (Crucifixion of Jesus)
68 AD? (Destruction of the Second Temple)

Some other date not mentioned?
Jews have always been wrong?
Jews have never been wrong?


Fenris I know verly little about the law and Jewish history, but I wonder if you would be patient with me, and answer several questions?

I know enough not to go the way of Balaam. If I die tonight, and if as I believe, Jesus is the messiah, I will be safe in Jesus. If he is not the messiah, I will die in my sins.

I truly do not know what you believe. I am not playing games. Could you tell me if you die tonight, where you would go, and why. I truly would want to know, to understand.

ProjectPeter
Sep 22nd 2007, 09:42 PM
Why would God give us laws that are difficult? To torture us? Or to challenge us to grow?Because of disobedience to a simple few.

It started here:

Ezekiel 20:3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Do you come to inquire of Me? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you."´
4 "Will you judge them, will you judge them, son of man? Make them know the abominations of their fathers;
5 and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
6 on that day I swore to them, to bring them out from the land of Egypt into a land that I had selected for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands.
7 "And I said to them, `Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God.´

But they didn't listen. So...


Ezekiel 20:8 "But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. ¶Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.
9 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
10 "So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.
11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.

Enough? No.

Ezekiel 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.
12 "And also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
13 "But the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness. They did not walk in My statutes, and they rejected My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; and My sabbaths they greatly profaned. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them in the wilderness, to annihilate them.
14 "But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, before whose sight I had brought them out.
15 "And also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands,
16 because they rejected My ordinances, and as for My statutes, they did not walk in them; they even profaned My sabbaths, for their heart continually went after their idols.
17 "Yet My eye spared them rather than destroying them, and I did not cause their annihilation in the wilderness.

That should teach them right?

Ezekiel 20:18 ¶"And I said to their children in the wilderness, `Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, or keep their ordinances, or defile yourselves with their idols.
19 `I am the LORD your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My ordinances, and observe them.
20 `And sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.´

They would listen... right?

Ezekiel 20:21 "But the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, nor were they careful to observe My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live; they profaned My sabbaths. So I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the wilderness.
22 "But I withdrew My hand and acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out.
23 "Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands,
24 because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes, and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers.
25 "And I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;
26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their first-born to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."´

Naturally read the entire chapter because there lies the answer. :)

ProjectPeter
Sep 22nd 2007, 09:44 PM
This statement is deeper than you know. You've hit on a fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity here, namely thus: In Christianity, the messiah is part of the process for overcoming evil. In Judaism, we believe that God already gave us the tools for overcoming evil, his Torah. The messiah is the reward when we do overcome it, on a national level.How does the Torah equip you to overcome? It shows you what it is that you must overcome but that being said... how does that HELP YOU overcome? Knowledge is cool but overcoming requires more than knowledge and I think you would agree with that right?

ProjectPeter
Sep 22nd 2007, 09:51 PM
And as I have said before, Christianity causes problems in Jewish theology. If I believed in Jesus as the messiah I could no longer remain Jewish. Can I ask... would that be the end of your world?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:13 AM
Psalms 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Why do you suppose there is a mention of God as a rock and then a high God who is a redeemer?

Poetry. It's called poetry.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:14 AM
Fenris I know verly little about the law and Jewish history, but I wonder if you would be patient with me, and answer several questions?

I know enough not to go the way of Balaam. If I die tonight, and if as I believe, Jesus is the messiah, I will be safe in Jesus. If he is not the messiah, I will die in my sins.

I truly do not know what you believe. I am not playing games. Could you tell me if you die tonight, where you would go, and why. I truly would want to know, to understand.
If I die tonight I believe I will spend some time in hell, no more than 11 months. Thereafter I will get the reward for my deeds. No, it isn't in scripture anywhere.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:19 AM
Because of disobedience to a simple few.


25 "And I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;

This refers to a later time then the giving of the bible, when God put bad ideas into man's head to punish them. I don't really think that God gave us bad orders in the bible. Think about it.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:20 AM
How does the Torah equip you to overcome?
It tells me what is right. It tells be how to bring out the divine in myself and others and the world itself.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:21 AM
Can I ask... would that be the end of your world?As one goes through life they must do what is right. That is what I am doing.

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 04:44 AM
This refers to a later time then the giving of the bible, when God put bad ideas into man's head to punish them. I don't really think that God gave us bad orders in the bible. Think about it.
Why do you think God wouldn't do that? Did God send spirits to lie to a King? Think about it? And that is but one example. ;)

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 04:45 AM
As one goes through life they must do what is right. That is what I am doing.
Being Jewish makes you right?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:52 AM
Poetry. It's called poetry.

Eh, sort of but does that mean nothing in the Psalms has literal worth?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:54 AM
If I die tonight I believe I will spend some time in hell, no more than 11 months. Thereafter I will get the reward for my deeds. No, it isn't in scripture anywhere.

Uh, this might be a little obvious but why in the world would you believe in something so detailed that doesn't come from scripture? Personally i believe in only scripture and compare all else to that which is in scripture.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:28 AM
Why do you think God wouldn't do that? Did God send spirits to lie to a King? Think about it? And that is but one example. ;)If God lies to man, how can we possibly know when He is telling the truth?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:29 AM
Being Jewish makes you right?No. I believe that Judaism is correct.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:30 AM
If God lies to man, how can we possibly know when He is telling the truth?


1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


2 Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:33 AM
Eh, sort of but does that mean nothing in the Psalms has literal worth?All of Psalms are poetry. As I explained in another thread, Psalms were written by man and does not have the same level of holiness as the Pentateuch. But let's face it, we all pick and choose what's literal and what's symbolic/allegory/metaphor.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:37 AM
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.


2 Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.Time to throw my bible in the trash, full of lies as it is. :lol:

If God lies to man, maybe He lied to Moses. Maybe He lied to Jesus. Maybe He lied to Mohammed. Eh?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:37 AM
All of Psalms are poetry. As I explained in another thread, Psalms were written by man and does not have the same level of holiness as the Pentateuch. But let's face it, we all pick and choose what's literal and what's symbolic/allegory/metaphor.

Deciding what is not as Holy is an easy way of dismissing some scripture as being lesser. I don't believe that is appropriate for man to do. I believe Psalms was inspired by God just as much as Genesis.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:39 AM
Time to throw my bible in the trash, full of lies as it is. :lol:

If God lies to man, maybe He lied to Moses. Maybe He lied to Jesus. Maybe He lied to Mohammed. Eh?

All I did was quote the scriptures. It is interesting how strong of a reaction it caused.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:40 AM
Uh, this might be a little obvious but why in the world would you believe in something so detailed that doesn't come from scripture? Personally i believe in only scripture and compare all else to that which is in scripture.My scripture doesn't mention much about the afterlife. Jewish conclusions are drawn from an examination of God's attributes, as we perceive them.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:42 AM
All I did was quote the scriptures. It is interesting how strong of a reaction it caused.
It's called 'sarcasm'.;) Obviously I don't believe my holy books are full of lies.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:48 AM
My scripture doesn't mention much about the afterlife. Jewish conclusions are drawn from an examination of God's attributes, as we perceive them.

And how exactly did a maximum of 11 months come from such an examination?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:49 AM
It's called 'sarcasm'.;) Obviously I don't believe my holy books are full of lies.

What do you think of the scriptures I quoted? Minus the sarcasm if you don't mind....

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:51 AM
And how exactly did a maximum of 11 months come from such an examination?I do not know. Judaism has a massive amount of works and one can't possibly know them all. I don't consider it terribly significant, in any case. If it was that important, God would have put it in the Tanach.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:52 AM
What do you think of the scriptures I quoted? Minus the sarcasm if you don't mind....
God gives people the opportunity to stray, particularly if it suits His plans.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:55 AM
I do not know. Judaism has a massive amount of works and one can't possibly know them all.

Fair enough.



I don't consider it terribly significant, in any case. If it was that important, God would have put it in the Tanach.

Exactly my point :)

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:56 AM
Exactly my point :)

Clue me in. What's your point?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:57 AM
God gives people the opportunity to stray, particularly if it suits His plans.

God is quite directly involved in it in this particular case.

You asked how we know God didn't lie to Moses, etc? Because he would say so.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 11:59 AM
Clue me in. What's your point?

That this belief of Hell for no longer than 11 months isn't scriptural and thus IMO not something that should be believed. It appears you believe it simply because that's what you've been told to believe, is that correct?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:02 PM
That this belief of Hell for no longer than 11 months isn't scriptural and thus IMO not something that should be believed. It appears you believe it simply because that's what you've been told to believe, is that correct?
You trust your religious leaders and I trust mine. That's how it is.

Eternal Damnation isn't in my scriptures either, and that's why I don't believe in it. Neither is a whole bunch of other stuff that I really can't get into.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:07 PM
You trust your religious leaders and I trust mine. That's how it is.

I do no such thing. I question them and if what they say doesn't align with scripture I reject what they say and often them as teachers.



Eternal Damnation isn't in my scriptures either, and that's why I don't believe in it. Neither is a whole bunch of other stuff that I really can't get into.

Hmmmm. Seems like we already had a thread where we posted scriptures that did show Eternal damnation. I happen to know that it is the OT scriptures that show this the best. The Greek on that subject is a little weaker than the Hebrew is.

Anyways, I maintain no one should believe things that have no scriptural foundation.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:10 PM
I do no such thing. I question them and if what they say doesn't align with scripture I reject what they say and often them as teachers.Good for you!





Hmmmm. Seems like we already had a thread where we posted scriptures that did show Eternal damnation. I happen to know that it is the OT scriptures that show this the best. The Greek on that subject is a little weaker than the Hebrew is. I must have missed that one. How a loving God could take a person who did a finite amount of evil and give them an infinite punishment is quite beyond me.


Anyways, I maintain no one should believe things that have no scriptural foundation.

We feel differently. There are many instances in the bible where the scripture alone is not definitive, and that's where the Oral Law comes in to play.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:18 PM
I must have missed that one. How a loving God could take a person who did a finite amount of evil and give them an infinite punishment is quite beyond me.

This could be answered on so many levels...

We cannot fully understand God first of all. Second, in a concept of a perfect world I think it would be unloving of God towards others to allow someone who is wicked to exist. Lastly, God may decide to give a greater amount of punishment than our perceived amount of worthy violation.



We feel differently. There are many instances in the bible where the scripture alone is not definitive, and that's where the Oral Law comes in to play.

Yes...well some of us see inherent "issues" with that route.

Thanks for the chat and your quickness. So very interesting to delve into our differences.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the chat and your quickness. So very interesting to delve into our differences.

You are quite welcome. That's why we are here! :D

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:25 PM
Yes...well some of us see inherent "issues" with that route.


I know that you do. But regardless, human being have become involved in the process. Who penned the books in the bible? Human beings. Who decided which books would be biblical canon and which books would be tossed out? Human beings. What happened in 325 AD? Many Church doctrines were decided-by a vote of human beings. So if humans have in fact become involved in the process, who can decide what the 'proper level' of involvement is?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:30 PM
I know that you do. But regardless, human being have become involved in the process. Who penned the books in the bible? Human beings. Who decided which books would be biblical canon and which books would be tossed out? Human beings. What happened in 325 AD? Many Church doctrines were decided-by a vote of human beings. So if humans have in fact become involved in the process, who can decide what the 'proper level' of involvement is?


I do not hold myself to any decisions that man has made. I only accept the authority of the scriptures. I do not fully agree with the decisions made in the canonization process. I think we differ more than you think we are similar on our reliance on the opinions of men.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:34 PM
I do not hold myself to any decisions that man has made. I only accept the authority of the scriptures. I do not fully agree with the decisions made in the canonization process. I think we differ more than you think we are similar on our reliance on the opinions of men.
That sounds like a recipe for religious chaos. With all due respect, of course.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:38 PM
That sounds like a recipe for religious chaos. With all due respect, of course.


Actually I was thinking the same exact thing in regards to believing in things not found in the scriptures.

There is plenty of "chaos" in Christianity. So many different beliefs and interpretations. This is not unique to Christianity though so...

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:42 PM
Actually I was thinking the same exact thing in regards to believing in things not found in the scriptures.

There is plenty of "chaos" in Christianity. So many different beliefs and interpretations. This is not unique to Christianity though so...
You are on some level still trusting human beings. A few OT books were tossed out of the biblical canon and many more were tossed out of the NT. You're trusting translations, too. Wat does Almah mean?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:46 PM
You are on some level still trusting human beings. A few OT books were tossed out of the biblical canon and many more were tossed out of the NT. You're trusting translations, too. Wat does Almah mean?

Like I said, I don't believe in the canon so it's a moot point.

As for Almah, all young women were virgins aside from sinful behavior or rape. It's not quite the same in modern times.

There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:25 PM
If God lies to man, how can we possibly know when He is telling the truth?Well God didn't lie to man but that's not the point I was trying to get you to focus on anyway. Can the same be said that "if God hardens a heart or blinds an eye then how can they possibly have a pliable heart and or eyes to see? Yet we know that God has done this. Even in the Prophets and the Law.

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:27 PM
No. I believe that Judaism is correct.Sure... as do I with following Christ. ;)

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:31 PM
Time to throw my bible in the trash, full of lies as it is. :lol:

If God lies to man, maybe He lied to Moses. Maybe He lied to Jesus. Maybe He lied to Mohammed. Eh?WEll I don't figure Mohammed and God did a lot of yapping truth be told. ;) So we can nix that one.

But question remains... what do you do with those passages that he posted? So far it seems you are just relying on "well it says what it says but it can't mean what it looks like it says because I BELIEVE........"

Studyin'2Show
Sep 23rd 2007, 02:58 PM
If I die tonight I believe I will spend some time in hell, no more than 11 months. Thereafter I will get the reward for my deeds. No, it isn't in scripture anywhere.Just curious, how about a Jew that accepts Yeshua as Messiah, how long do they spend in hell, in your opinion?

Ta-An
Sep 23rd 2007, 04:37 PM
Where is this said?Off the cuff try Psalm 2 :idea:

Ta-An
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:49 PM
Then why is his sacrifice necessary to enter heaven?


I agree. But then again, why is Jesus necessary? To fulfill the scriptures... for one :D

tgallison
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:54 PM
If I die tonight I believe I will spend some time in hell, no more than 11 months. Thereafter I will get the reward for my deeds. No, it isn't in scripture anywhere.


Fenris sorry I missed your reply.

Fenris what can you give to God that is not already his, but your heart?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:40 PM
There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin.

Of course there is. But that's besides the point. Learned people of my religion will tell me the word means one thing, and learned people of your religion will tell you the word means something else. IN both cases, we are trusting a human being to give us knowledge we do not otherwise posses.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:41 PM
Well God didn't lie to man but that's not the point I was trying to get you to focus on anyway. Can the same be said that "if God hardens a heart or blinds an eye then how can they possibly have a pliable heart and or eyes to see? Yet we know that God has done this. Even in the Prophets and the Law.
Right but it's unknowable who He is doing that to now. Or am I still missing the point?:confused

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:42 PM
Sure... as do I with following Christ. ;)
Right, and there's nothing wrong with that. We believe in things because of faith, not facts or evidence. So what really counts are our actions, because we actually do have control over them...

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:44 PM
WEll I don't figure Mohammed and God did a lot of yapping truth be told. ;) So we can nix that one.

But question remains... what do you do with those passages that he posted? So far it seems you are just relying on "well it says what it says but it can't mean what it looks like it says because I BELIEVE........"I didn't see anything there that was theologically problematic.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:45 PM
To fulfill the scriptures... for one :DUm. Right...but that's a matter of faith, not fact. Those scriptures could be fulfilled in other ways.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:46 PM
Fenris what can you give to God that is not already his, but your heart?

God gave us the greatest gift of all. Free will.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 07:47 PM
Off the cuff try Psalm 2 :idea:I'm sorry, I don;t know what my original post was. What's in Psalm 2?

tgallison
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:26 PM
God gave us the greatest gift of all. Free will.


I disagree with you Fenris. Free will is a great gift, but it is what got us into trouble. The Greatest Gift is what gets us out of the trouble, that the free will got us into.

The Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:36 PM
I disagree with you Fenris. Free will is a great gift, but it is what got us into trouble. The Greatest Gift is what gets us out of the trouble, that the free will got us into.

The Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.I'd rather struggle and fall short then take a reward I haven't earned.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:39 PM
I'd rather struggle and fall short then take a reward I haven't earned.

And therein lies the crux of the matter, and the stumbling block for Jew and Gentile alike....a goal that you will never earn in God's sight. The goal God gave Abraham was a promise based on Abraham's faith....

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:44 PM
I'd rather struggle and fall short then take a reward I haven't earned.And that is where the self-righteous mindset comes in that makes a man think he can have power with God by what he does; when the grace of God is what he needs. The unmerited favor of God which we have by faith, because Jesus is the faithful Son. This causes the man to humble himself before the Lord because he knows that what he needs he is unable to provide for himself. Like an atonement for his sins.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:45 PM
And therein lies the crux of the matter, and the stumbling block for Jew and Gentile alike....a goal that you will never earn in God's sight. The goal God gave Abraham was a promise based on Abraham's faith....
God gave us 613 Commandments that are actions. The best part about them is that even if your faith is weak, you can still struggle mightily and to the right thing. That makes it even more precious in God's eyes.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:47 PM
And that is where the self-righteous mindset comes in that makes a man think he can have power with God by what he does;
No, because you're doing the very same thing. You're saying there's a single commandment, and I'm saying there are 613. God neither needs your faith nor my actions, it simply a measuring rod that He can use to determine our fate.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:51 PM
Just curious, how about a Jew that accepts Yeshua as Messiah, how long do they spend in hell, in your opinion?*bump* So how much time?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:55 PM
*bump* So how much time?Sorry, I missed it the first time.

Well, it depends. Were they brought up in a religious Jewish household? Or did they know almost nothing about Judaism when they got 'saved'? Because we do not believe that people are held up to an absolute ideal; rather, we are judged on what we are capable of versus what we actually accomplish.

Mograce2U
Sep 23rd 2007, 08:57 PM
No, because you're doing the very same thing. You're saying there's a single commandment, and I'm saying there are 613. God neither needs your faith nor my actions, it simply a measuring rod that He can use to determine our fate.Faith is what God requires, which can be seen in that it was Abraham's faith by which God declared him righteous - because he believed God's word. Abraham in faith, then responded in obedience. Which shows it was his faith which brought the right act. The 613 laws can be kept letter-perfect without any faith whatsoever, yet this is not what is needed to find favor with God.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:07 PM
The 613 laws can be kept letter-perfect without any faith whatsoever, yet this is not what is needed to find favor with God.
On this point, we must agree to disagree.

Kahtar
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:15 PM
No, because you're doing the very same thing. You're saying there's a single commandment, and I'm saying there are 613. God neither needs your faith nor my actions, it simply a measuring rod that He can use to determine our fate.
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith. Deuteronomy 32:20
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

ProjectPeter
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:20 PM
Right but it's unknowable who He is doing that to now. Or am I still missing the point?:confusedWell I suppose I would ask why is it unknowable?

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:33 PM
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith. Deuteronomy 32:20
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

I don't understand how this relates to my post.

Fenris
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:33 PM
Well I suppose I would ask why is it unknowable?
Because we have no more prophets to clue us in.

SIG
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:51 PM
Fenris-- I'm sure it has been pointed out that Abraham was credited as righteous long before the Law was given. I will reiterate.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Rom 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Rom 4:16 For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, {even} God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
Rom 4:19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
Rom 4:20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

SIG
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:56 PM
Fenris: "God neither needs your faith nor my actions..."

Of course He is never needy, but that does not preclude that He WANTS them.

tgallison
Sep 23rd 2007, 10:47 PM
I'd rather struggle and fall short then take a reward I haven't earned.


Fenris it is not a reward, it is a free gift. That is what God keeps telling you. It is not about you, it is about Him.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 23rd 2007, 10:47 PM
Because we have no more prophets to clue us in.I might wonder why He has been silent. I hope you understand that from our viewpoint He has not been silent but it is you that has not heard His clear voice.

Shalom!

Teke
Sep 23rd 2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fenris
I'd rather struggle and fall short then take a reward I haven't earned.



And therein lies the crux of the matter, and the stumbling block for Jew and Gentile alike....a goal that you will never earn in God's sight. The goal God gave Abraham was a promise based on Abraham's faith....

As I'm reading the dialog of this thread, the parable of the prodigal son and the elder son comes to mind. The Jew is like the elder son, it's exemplified in the attitude IMHO. :)

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 01:29 AM
Fenris-- I'm sure it has been pointed out that Abraham was credited as righteous long before the Law was given. I
Yes, because he did God's will.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 01:30 AM
I might wonder why He has been silent. I hope you understand that from our viewpoint He has not been silent but it is you that has not heard His clear voice.

Shalom!Even you would confess He has been silent nearly 2000 years. I would just say He has been silent slightly longer.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 01:33 AM
Fenris it is not a reward, it is a free gift. That is what God keeps telling you. It is not about you, it is about Him.Would you rather have a gift or something earned? In the eternal afterlife, I want to bask in my accomplishments, not things cheaply given to me. I want to be able to say that it was hard, keeping kosher, keeping Shabbat, but I did it anyway, because it was what God wanted. And that way I'll have earned something.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 24th 2007, 01:48 AM
God gave us 613 Commandments that are actions. The best part about them is that even if your faith is weak, you can still struggle mightily and to the right thing. That makes it even more precious in God's eyes.

So we see where the rift, and the paths, separate even wider; '...For God so loved the world that He gave His only son so that whomsoever should believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life...'. That is a rift that you cannot build enough deeds on to cross...

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 01:58 AM
Even you would confess He has been silent nearly 2000 years. I would just say He has been silent slightly longer.No, I wouldn't. You seem to think we believe He stopped with Yeshua or maybe Shaul but no. He has spoken to me! ;) So, not silent at all!

God Bless!

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 02:07 AM
Would you rather have a gift or something earned? In the eternal afterlife, I want to bask in my accomplishments, not things cheaply given to me. I want to be able to say that it was hard, keeping kosher, keeping Shabbat, but I did it anyway, because it was what God wanted. And that way I'll have earned something.Go figure! My children seem to really love the gifts that I give without having to earn one thing. I enjoy it when my hubby gives me gifts without feeling I have to earn it. In fact, if I tried to act as if I earned his gifts, he might be offended as he gives them freely. It actually cheapens his giving by even implying that I need to earn them. Did Adam earn the breath of God or was it freely given to him? :hmm: How could one possibly EARN it? What do we have that God needs so much that He would put a value on eternal life? That's like thinking what's in your child's piggy bank is enough to purchase the Hope diamond! :o Not even close.

tgallison
Sep 24th 2007, 02:36 AM
Would you rather have a gift or something earned? In the eternal afterlife, I want to bask in my accomplishments, not things cheaply given to me. I want to be able to say that it was hard, keeping kosher, keeping Shabbat, but I did it anyway, because it was what God wanted. And that way I'll have earned something.


Fenris do you realize what you have said. You have told God that the messiah is a cheaply gift. God has offered you himself, to save your soul, because he loves you.

David failed in the Law and knew it. So he came to God in a humble and contrite spirit, asking God not to judge him in the Law.

Psalm 143:2 "And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified."

Isaiah 66:1-2 Thus saith the Lord, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
(2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Fenris it is about the heart. I know the voice of my Lord.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 10:45 AM
So we see where the rift, and the paths, separate even wider; '...For God so loved the world that He gave His only son so that whomsoever should believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life...'. That is a rift that you cannot build enough deeds on to cross...
Well a religious Jew would see that as unnecessary. But of course, we believe different things.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 10:46 AM
No, I wouldn't. You seem to think we believe He stopped with Yeshua or maybe Shaul but no. He has spoken to me! ;) So, not silent at all!

God Bless!
Ah, a modern-day prophet.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 10:50 AM
Go figure! My children seem to really love the gifts that I give without having to earn one thing. I enjoy it when my hubby gives me gifts without feeling I have to earn it. In fact, if I tried to act as if I earned his gifts, he might be offended as he gives them freely. It actually cheapens his giving by even implying that I need to earn them. Did Adam earn the breath of God or was it freely given to him? :hmm: How could one possibly EARN it? What do we have that God needs so much that He would put a value on eternal life? That's like thinking what's in your child's piggy bank is enough to purchase the Hope diamond! :o Not even close.
The gift of free will is the only one we need. God will reward us for our good deeds. God does not expect us to be perfect; He created us and knows we are flawed. And that is why perhaps some small good deed, insignificant in our eyes, might be enough to buy the Hope Diamond in His eyes...

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 10:51 AM
Fenris it is about the heart. I know the voice of my Lord.

So do I. He gave us a most excellent set of rules that a man, if he follows them, may live by them. Eternal life.

tgallison
Sep 24th 2007, 11:50 AM
So do I. He gave us a most excellent set of rules that a man, if he follows them, may live by them. Eternal life.


Fenris your roots go deep, they go by running waters.

For you to have eternal life by your works, you have to be greater than your Father Abraham. Are you?

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 12:31 PM
Fenris, what is your understanding of Melchizedek?

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 02:46 PM
The gift of free will is the only one we need. God will reward us for our good deeds. God does not expect us to be perfect; He created us and knows we are flawed. And that is why perhaps some small good deed, insignificant in our eyes, might be enough to buy the Hope Diamond in His eyes...You did not answer the question of what Adam gave to earn the breath of YHVH. :hmm:

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 03:31 PM
For you to have eternal life by your works, you have to be greater than your Father Abraham. Are you?My works will earn me a small share in the World To Come. Abraham's works earn him a great share there. We don't all have the same afterlife.

But I have a bigger issue with what you just said:

Why does a single sentence in the book of Genesis hold so much weight? Every word, nay, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. You'd be content to throw away thousands of verses detailing what actions God expects from us because of one verse about Abraham?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 03:31 PM
Fenris, what is your understanding of Melchizedek?
Could you be more specific?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 03:35 PM
You did not answer the question of what Adam gave to earn the breath of YHVH. :hmm:Nothing.
And that is exactly why Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Adam was a very bright man. He was, after all, created by God Himself. So Adam was thinking, here I am in this perfect Garden that I did nothing to earn. So I shall eat from the Tree of Knowledge and earn this perfect existence.

Thank you for bringing it up.

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 03:57 PM
Could you be more specific?

What is the understanding in Judaism? Or is it not significant at all.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 04:14 PM
What is the understanding in Judaism? Or is it not significant at all.
The understanding of what about him specifically?

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 04:27 PM
Just thought I'd intercede here as we all marvel over the unbelief of those to whom God first gave the promise, that it has in fact come:

(Mat 7:13-14 KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {14} Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The Way of the Cross:

(John 14:5-14 KJV) Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? {6} Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. {7} If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. {8} Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. {9} Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? {10} Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. {11} Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. {12} Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. {13} And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. {14} If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

(John 14:16-21 KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; {17} Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. {18} I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. {19} Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. {20} At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. {21} He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(John 14:22-29 KJV) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? {23} Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. {24} He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. {25} These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. {26} But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. {27} Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. {28} Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. {29} And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 04:32 PM
Just thought I'd intercede here as we all marvel over the unbelief of those to whom God first gave the promise, that it has in fact come:OK, a couple of points here. First of all, there's a disturbing logic in saying that the Jews rejected God, the Jews rejected Jesus, ergo, Jesus was God.

Second, and more importantly, there is an insinuation that the Jews suffering/exile/lack of messiah is because they have not accepted Jesus. The problem is, most Jews aren't religious at all! If every Jew followed the Torah as we see it, and the messiah still had not come, you might have a point. Since this has not in fact happened, we can leave open the possibility that we suffer because we haven't accepted our own God, not someone else's.

Just some food for thought.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 04:36 PM
Fenris, what is your understanding of Melchizedek?He is said to be Shem, the son of Noah.

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 04:44 PM
He is said to be Shem, the son of Noah.

A distinction is made in the letters to the churches of the NT, that Jesus' priesthood is of Melchizedek rather than the Levitical priesthood.
Is there such a distinction made in Judaism between priesthoods?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 04:47 PM
A distinction is made in the letters to the churches of the NT, that Jesus' priesthood is of Melchizedek rather than the Levitical priesthood.
Is there such a distinction made in Judaism between priesthoods?
No, everyone has a defined role.

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 04:51 PM
No, everyone has a defined role.

Defined by God, right.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 04:58 PM
Defined by God, right.Um, everything is defined by God. But that doesn't mean that roles can be changed midstream, as it were...

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 05:01 PM
Um, everything is defined by God. But that doesn't mean that roles can be changed midstream, as it were...

Meaning what...........for instance.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:04 PM
Meaning what...........for instance.
Meaning that the priests come from the line of Aaron- only. The kings come from the line of David- only. I have neither lineage that I can trace, so I shall never have those roles.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 05:12 PM
OK, a couple of points here. First of all, there's a disturbing logic in saying that the Jews rejected God, the Jews rejected Jesus, ergo, Jesus was God.

Second, and more importantly, there is an insinuation that the Jews suffering/exile/lack of messiah is because they have not accepted Jesus. The problem is, most Jews aren't religious at all! If every Jew followed the Torah as we see it, and the messiah still had not come, you might have a point. Since this has not in fact happened, we can leave open the possibility that we suffer because we haven't accepted our own God, not someone else's.

Just some food for thought.It is not an insinuation unless I was not being clear. The Jews rejected their Messiah and are now without God in the world, until such time as they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". This past almost 2,000 years has been the longest time in which Israel has been cut off from God when idolatry was NOT their problem.

(1 John 2:22-25 KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. {23} Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. {24} Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. {25} And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

It's pretty hard to see Jesus as only another Rabbi in Israel, when this is what He came to tell them. Which proof was seen in the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem... which Jesus prophecied.

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 05:21 PM
Meaning that the priests come from the line of Aaron- only. The kings come from the line of David- only. I have neither lineage that I can trace, so I shall never have those roles.

I know of no lineage for myself that would cause God to call me for anything, nor did I ask Him, but He did.

Jesus had both (according to biblical history) but claimed neither one. Melchizedek was a priest appointed by God and not man or genealogy/lineage.

According to Judaism what tribe does the Messiah come from? And what is his purpose?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:22 PM
It is not an insinuation unless I was not being clear. The Jews rejected their Messiah and are now without God in the world, until such time as they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". This past almost 2,000 years has been the longest time in which Israel has been cut off from God when idolatry was NOT their problem.
There is nothing natural about Jewish history, in the sense of being like other nations. You may take it to mean one thing and I another, but neither of us can say that God has ignored the Jews.


It's pretty hard to see Jesus as only another Rabbi in Israel, when this is what He came to tell them. Which proof was seen in the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem... which Jesus prophecied.
Since many of the Gospels were written after 68, it isn't clear that anything of the sort was prophesied.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 05:22 PM
Nothing.
And that is exactly why Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Adam was a very bright man. He was, after all, created by God Himself. So Adam was thinking, here I am in this perfect Garden that I did nothing to earn. So I shall eat from the Tree of Knowledge and earn this perfect existence.

Thank you for bringing it up.:o So, how did that idea work for him! :rolleyes: You seem to be proving my point! :lol: Oh that he would have been satisfied with the free gift, man would not have fallen.

Shalom!

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:28 PM
Jesus had both (according to biblical history) but claimed neither one. Melchizedek was a priest appointed by God and not man or genealogy/lineage.Impossible, according to Judaism. Either one is descended from the tribe of Judah, through David and Solomon, and may thus be a king, or they are descended from the tribe of Levi, through Aaron, and may thus be a priest. No one can be both.


According to Judaism what tribe does the Messiah come from? And what is his purpose?
Judah, of course. His purpose is summed up by the following:

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:30 PM
Oh that he would have been satisfied with the free gift, man would not have fallen.


True enough, true enough. Still, we can't change what has already happened. Our mission is now to repair the world and bring it back to that state.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 05:36 PM
True enough, true enough. Still, we can't change what has already happened. Our mission is now to repair the world and bring it back to that state.But we can learn to put aside our pride and accept the free gifts God sets His heart to give to us! ;)

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:38 PM
But we can learn to put aside our pride and accept the free gifts God sets His heart to give to us! ;)Only one guy got the chance to get a free gift. And he wanted to earn it instead, and set the tone for the rest of us. Do good now, while you can; for in the messianic era we will have much less free will, and consequently much less reward.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 05:38 PM
There is nothing natural about Jewish history, in the sense of being like other nations. You may take it to mean one thing and I another, but neither of us can say that God has ignored the Jews.
...
Since many of the Gospels were written after 68, it isn't clear that anything of the sort was prophesied.Yet Moses wrote the Genesis account for us and lays out the history of Israel coming into Egypt which occurred before his time. The gospels on the other hand were written by eyewitnesses - men who knew Jesus and heard Him. And the epistles were written in the times to the people then present.

As for the history of Israel between the 1st century and today - where is the prophet to point us to God at work?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 05:40 PM
The gospels on the other hand were written by eyewitnesses - men who knew Jesus and heard Him. Your point being...?


As for the history of Israel between the 1st century and today - where is the prophet to point us to God at work?Prophecy ended will before the first century.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 05:53 PM
Impossible, according to Judaism. Either one is descended from the tribe of Judah, through David and Solomon, and may thus be a king, or they are descended from the tribe of Levi, through Aaron, and may thus be a priest. No one can be both.But Melchizedek the king of Salem brought forth the bread and wine and Abraham gave tithes to him of the spoil from the sacking of Sodom.

(Psa 110:4 KJV) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb 5:6)

(Heb 6:18-20 KJV) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: {19} Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; {20} Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


Melchizedek the Priest
(Heb 7:1-10 KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; {2} To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; {3} Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. {4} Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. {5} And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: {6} But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. {7} And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. {8} And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. {9} And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. {10} For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Jesus Like Melchizedek
(Heb 7:11-19 KJV) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? {12} For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. {13} For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. {14} For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. {15} And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, {16} Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. {17} For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. {18} For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. {19} For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

(Heb 7:20-25 KJV) And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: {21} (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec {22} By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. {23} And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: {24} But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. {25} Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

(Heb 7:26-28 KJV) For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; {27} Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. {28} For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The High Priest of a New Covenant
(Heb 8:1-2 KJV) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; {2} A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

tgallison
Sep 24th 2007, 05:58 PM
My works will earn me a small share in the World To Come. Abraham's works earn him a great share there. We don't all have the same afterlife.

But I have a bigger issue with what you just said:

Why does a single sentence in the book of Genesis hold so much weight? Every word, nay, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. You'd be content to throw away thousands of verses detailing what actions God expects from us because of one verse about Abraham?


Fenris

I hold every jot and tittle Holy. And every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled. It is not me who throws away thousands of verses detailing what actions God expects from us. I have a completed Bible, as do the completed Jews.

Fenris do you believe in Satan, and if so is he fallen?

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 06:10 PM
But Melchizedek the king of Salem brought forth the bread and wine and Abraham gave tithes to him of the spoil from the sacking of Sodom.

(Psa 110:4 KJV) The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. (Heb 5:6)

Melchizedek was not a Jewish priest. Neither was Jethro. The context is not as you say and the Psalm is not messianic.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 06:11 PM
I hold every jot and tittle Holy. And every jot and tittle shall be fulfilled. It is not me who throws away thousands of verses detailing what actions God expects from us. Do you keep the sabbath? Do you keep kosher? Why not?


Fenris do you believe in Satan, and if so is he fallen?
Satan, in Hebrew, means adversary. Satan is God's faithful servant, sent to test us and bring out our best.

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 06:27 PM
Only one guy got the chance to get a free gift. And he wanted to earn it instead, and set the tone for the rest of us. Do good now, while you can; for in the messianic era we will have much less free will, and consequently much less reward.Sure, and you read that in what part of scripture? :rolleyes: :hmm: It seems, Fenris, that much of what you believe has more to do with tradition than scripture.

Fenris
Sep 24th 2007, 06:32 PM
Sure, and you read that in what part of scripture? :rolleyes: :hmm: It seems, Fenris, that much of what you believe has more to do with tradition than scripture.And it seem, from my perspective, that you guys are very creative about finding Jesus in every nook and cranny of the bible.

But if you want to find where I base that opinion in scripture, look at the above post on the messianic expectations.
"My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 06:42 PM
And it seem, from my perspective, that you guys are very creative about finding Jesus in every nook and cranny of the bible.

But if you want to find where I base that opinion in scripture, look at the above post on the messianic expectations.
"My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)We are pretty good at that aren't we?

(John 5:36-40 KJV) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. {37} And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. {38} And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. {39} Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. {40} And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 07:03 PM
Impossible, according to Judaism. Either one is descended from the tribe of Judah, through David and Solomon, and may thus be a king, or they are descended from the tribe of Levi, through Aaron, and may thus be a priest. No one can be both.

Hmm, nobody married outside of their tribe within Israel.


Judah, of course. His purpose is summed up by the following:

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.



So basically all you need is a mortal man to reign as King of Judah over the whole world in peace according to commandments and that means the Messiah has come for Israel.
Could be possible, but I doubt that is what the world wants and needs.

I suppose you could say Christianity took that idea to a universal level with only God as King and Priest. Of course you know we see further understanding in the scriptures than just a land called Israel. We're seeking freedom from this mortal state. Whether that be a hesychasm in worship while we're here or final release from the passions in our body of the world, ideally a combo of both.

Eastern Christians hold a similar view to Judaism in healing the world with God. In the fathers it is spoken of more like a return to the Garden. Mankind returning to be all God created him to be. A transfiguration by grace. This is what Jesus Christ means to Christianity.

Thank you for answering my questions. I could debate the scriptures with you some, but that is not my intention in your thread. I believe we have addressed your original question somewhat in this thread by our dialog.
Christianity is not Judaism, so Judaism never went astray from it's roots. It is still a national religion of Israel, though other religions are tolerated as is Judaism outside of Israel.
While I understand, I disagree with ethnic issues dividing people, especially in worship of God.

Peace

Studyin'2Show
Sep 24th 2007, 07:04 PM
And it seem, from my perspective, that you guys are very creative about finding Jesus in every nook and cranny of the bible.

But if you want to find where I base that opinion in scripture, look at the above post on the messianic expectations.
"My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)Pretty easy to find Him when He's there! :lol: One thing you may learn about us is that we accept ALL scripture. We believe in the conquering King as well, not just the suffering Servant. It ALL fits! :D

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 07:39 PM
Teke,

Christianity is not Judaism, so Judaism never went astray from it's roots. It is still a national religion of Israel, though other religions are tolerated as is Judaism outside of Israel. Perhaps we could say that while Judaism did not go astray from its roots, it did fail to move forward with God in His plan of redemption begun with Abraham. At least that is how it seems to me.

(Hab 1:5 KJV) Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

It seems that some did not believe they would be taken to captivity in Babylon either. What will they do in the next day of the Lord that is coming?

Teke
Sep 24th 2007, 07:55 PM
Teke,
Perhaps we could say that while Judaism did not go astray from its roots, it did fail to move forward with God in His plan of redemption begun with Abraham. At least that is how it seems to me.



According to Judaism (a religion) they continue to "move forward with God in His plan of redemption".
Religions are sometimes like mountain climbers. You have a huge mountain and climbers on every side. Each decides how they will ascend that mountain. And they are not all looking at the same side.;)

tgallison
Sep 24th 2007, 10:35 PM
Do you keep the sabbath? Do you keep kosher? Why not?[/size]

Satan, in Hebrew, means adversary. Satan is God's faithful servant, sent to test us and bring out our best.

Fenris I hold every day Holy. I do not follow the traditions of men. I hold the law of God in my heart, and with his grace, I shall be found faithful. Matthew 22:37 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment."

Your roots go deep to the rivers of water. Has the dew of heaven left your branches?

Satan as seen in Zechariah 3:1 "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. (2) And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Fenris do you find fault with the faithful servant here?

Ta-An
Sep 25th 2007, 07:29 PM
And it seem, from my perspective, that you guys are very creative about finding Jesus in every nook and cranny of the bible.

Well my dear friend :)
When your heart is trained to hear Him, your eyes will find Him :)

Ta-An
Sep 25th 2007, 07:35 PM
Satan, in Hebrew, means adversary. AND Yeshua is Salvation :pp

See this Fenris... When are you gonna learn to read Hebrew :hmm:
Psalm 4 to YHVH belongs the Yeshua
לַיהוָה הַיְשׁוּעָה

Teke
Sep 25th 2007, 09:05 PM
It is strange what can be said unwittingly. Such as the Jewish high priest that year in Jerusalem, when he prophesied of Jesus.

Jhn 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

A prophet is not always aware of what he is saying. Caiaphas is an unwitting and involuntary prophet. He doesn't appreciate with his conscious mind, the real meaning of the truth that he proclaims, but he says more than he intends or realizes.
God can use any mouthpiece for a message greater than the mouthpiece's own understanding. :saint: