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Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 04:53 PM
And as another person pointed out in this thread, we are the priests under the New Covenant, and our work doesn't end just because it's Saturday or any other day.

Shalom VR,

That is a misrepresentation of the Sabbath. G-d's service is not "work." It is considered holy, not mundane. Mundane, every day work is what is put aside, not working for G-d.

Don't confuse true Scripture with what the rabbis added. The rabbinical regulations are not what we follow. They (the rabbis) added these regulations from hearts desiring to not even come close to profaning the Sabbath, but their rules are man's rules.

G-d's Word is different and it's what we live by, not man's rules.

Look again, the "religious" tried to tell Jesus it was wrong to heal on the Sabbath (man's rules). Jesus showed them it was always right to "do good" and serve G-d on the Sabbath (G-d's Word). You see, He NEVER broke the Sabbath, He did ignore man's rules, but He never broke G-d's Word.

You are confusing man's rules with G-d's Word. If you see it from Jesus' perspective, there is no conflict.


Mark 3:
1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3And he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come here." 4And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent. 5And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

Friend of I AM
Sep 24th 2007, 04:57 PM
Not sure if you missed this question or not - So I wanted to repeat it for you again..



Who is the Christ Vicki? Was He a man or was He God?

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 05:02 PM
Not sure if you missed this question or not - So I wanted to repeat it for you again..

Shalom,

Don't you know who Jesus is? :lol:

Seriously, take this someplace else please. This thread is about Sabbath.

Friend of I AM
Sep 24th 2007, 05:09 PM
Shalom,

Don't you know? :lol:

Seriously, take this someplace else please.

Well, since you've chosen to not answer - I'll go ahead and do it for you. Christ was/is God. Now, that being said - when was God born -- and what represents a day to Almighty God? Both of these questions relate to the observance of sabbath..

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 05:18 PM
Shalom VR,

That is a misrepresentation of the Sabbath. G-d's service is not "work." It is considered holy, not mundane. Mundane, every day work is what is put aside, not working for G-d.

Don't confuse true Scripture with what the rabbis added. The rabbinical regulations are not what we follow. They (the rabbis) added these regulations from hearts desiring to not even come close to profaning the Sabbath, but their rules are man's rules.

G-d's Word is different and it's what we live by, not man's rules.

Look again, the "religious" tried to tell Jesus it was wrong to heal on the Sabbath (man's rules). Jesus showed them it was always right to "do good" and serve G-d on the Sabbath (G-d's Word). You see, He NEVER broke the Sabbath, He did ignore man's rules, but He never broke G-d's Word.

You are confusing man's rules with G-d's Word. If you see it from Jesus' perspective, there is no conflict.

We do "works" for the Lord all the time. That is why James says that faith without "works" is dead. My point was that under the Old Covenant folks had to go to the temple in order to be in the presence of God, and they did this on the Sabbath day. Under the New Covenant born again believers do not need a temple built with hands, nor a day set aside where they can be in the presence of God. We are in His presence every single day, and we are to do His "work" every single day because we are the priests under the New Covenant.

I hope that clarifies more fully what was meant.

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 05:23 PM
We do "works" for the Lord all the time. That is why James says that faith without "works" is dead. My point was that under the Old Covenant folks had to go to the temple in order to be in the presence of God, and they did this on the Sabbath day. Under the New Covenant born again believers do not need a temple built with hands nor a day set aside where they can be in the presence of God. We are in His presence every single day, and we are to do His "work" every single day because we are the priests under the New Covenant.

I hope that clarifies more fully what was meant.

Shalom VR,

I see what you're saying, but I think you really aren't seeing what I'm saying based on your comments about the priests.

There is nothing wrong with doing GOOD works on the Sabbath. Jesus proved that.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath. He spoke about people whose oxes fell into a ditch. It was not limited to be being in the Temple. It is not limited today. We can do good works for G-d on the Sabbath.

That's all I can answer at the moment, I must take my children out for the afternoon, I'll reply once I'm back. :D

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 05:36 PM
Shalom VR,

I see what you're saying, but I think you really aren't seeing what I'm saying based on your comments about the priests.

There is nothing wrong with doing GOOD works on the Sabbath. Jesus proved that.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath. He spoke about people whose oxes fell into a ditch. It was not limited to be being in the Temple. It is not limited today. We can do good works for G-d on the Sabbath.

That's all I can answer at the moment, I must take my children out for the afternoon, I'll reply once I'm back. :D

I understand what you're saying. However, I'm not contending that there is anything wrong with doing good works. What I'm saying is that we are to do those good works everyday. What I'm saying is the Old Covenant practices were a shadow of the spiritual reality we experience today. We no longer need a day set aside to enter into a temple built by the hands of men in order to do the work of God and be in His presence. Today we are in His presence every single day because we are the temple not built with hands, and His kingdom is now indwelt within us. We are to do His work as priests under the new covenant bringing forth the light of the gospel everyday.

Now, this is not saying that you can't set aside a day if you feel like you want to do that. We certainly have that freedom. However, my point is only that it is not required unless one feels it necessary in their own walk.

Again, this topic is certainly not to judge what others feel like they want to do for the Lord. This is simply to educate others on whether or not something is Scripturally required in order for them to be obedient to the Lord.

Friend of I AM
Sep 24th 2007, 05:40 PM
Well, since you've chosen to not answer - I'll go ahead and do it for you. Christ was/is God. Now, that being said - when was God born -- and what represents a day to Almighty God? Both of these questions relate to the observance of sabbath..


Well since you don't have the time to answer my question above, I'll go ahead and answer once again for you using scripture.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


2 Peter 3:8–9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2PET+3:8-9&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on)
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is the beginning, the middle, and the end..that being said there is no day during man's lifetime that he can fully and properly represent God and the entirety of His Holiness - nor is there any human alive who has or will fulfill his 1000+ year sabbath referenced in the "7-day" Genesis account. That being said, everyday of a man's life should be a sabbath and Holy day unto the Lord. Take some time today to praise His Holy name, and remember that His grace and mercy is ever sufficient to take care of all of our weaknesses and infirmities. Praise be the Lord. Each day is indeed a day that the Lord has made - and I will rejoice and praise Him each and every day recognizing it's Holiness.


Stephen

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 24th 2007, 05:54 PM
Mograce2u,

The verses i listed about making sure one's election did not have anything to do with fasting, or a holy day per se, i just listed it along with Yom Kippur, cause that's what that Holy day represents, is the judgment day to come.
So no, it doesn't really mention the fasting, but it does point to the fact that one can be but off the tree, or blottred out of the book of life.


friend of I am,
Not sure where you are trying to go with this, but i believe that Yeshua was God in the flesh, and is the Word of God.
As to when Yeshua was born, i can only say He wasn't born around christmas, but likely around the time of the feast of Tabernacles whic is coming up next week, But it shifts each year a little bit, to where it can be anywhere from mid september to mid october.

How does any of this relate to the Sabbath? I'd like you to tell me.

Shalom,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 06:16 PM
Mograce2u,

The verses i listed about making sure one's election did not have anything to do with fasting, or a holy day per se, i just listed it along with Yom Kippur, cause that's what that Holy day represents, is the judgment day to come.

So no, it doesn't really mention the fasting, but it does point to the fact that one can be cut off the tree, or blotted out of the book of life.
This is where I do see that Yom Kippur pertained to Israel and the judgment day that was going to come upon them - in the 1st century.

The day of atonement is the only feast in which both a blessing and a curse is seen. Only the remnant received the atonement blessing and the ones who rejected Messiah were judged. We do not have this to face anymore if we are safe in Christ where we abide by faith. Israel however did. If we are born again then the feast of tabernacles is fulfilled in us as well, because our hope in the resurrection lies in that.

The Jew who is without hope in Christ sees these things as not yet fulfilled. We ought not to make his same mistake by putting off what we have in Christ as though we have not received it.

Friend of I AM
Sep 24th 2007, 06:47 PM
friend of I am,
Not sure where you are trying to go with this, but i believe that Yeshua was God in the flesh, and is the Word of God.
As to when Yeshua was born, i can only say He wasn't born around christmas, but likely around the time of the feast of Tabernacles whic is coming up next week, But it shifts each year a little bit, to where it can be anywhere from mid september to mid october.

How does any of this relate to the Sabbath? I'd like you to tell me.


My point is simply this. Jesus Christ is/was God. He was present in the beginning, He's present now, and He'll be present in the end. That being said there is no one "Holy day" or "Sabbath" that's more accurate in representing/glorifying God - as He has always existed - and there is no one true "Holy day"(i.e. like Christmas) or "Sabbath" one can partake in that will fully meet all of his requirements and represent the entirety of His glory and holiness in the days of man.


The Genesis Sabbath that many attest to abiding by is even more impossible for a human to meet than the Mosaic one - as it lasts beyond the lifespan of an average human being. Thus everyone has essentially failed and will fail in the fulfillment of God's sabbath and observance of his Holy Day's. But by God's glorious grace - we are forgiven and allowed to be with Him through Christ's perfect fulfillment of All of the laws.

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 08:29 PM
Ok, that answers my question. Thank you.

Shalom Naphal,

You're most welcome.


I also keep no old testament "rules" concerning the Sabbath, which includes it being on only one day a week or only one certain day.

I believe that's New Testament as well since Jesus celebrated and observed the Sabbath on the 7th-day. But, I do understand that's where we differ in our views. I'm cool with that.


Now, that's how I do it and how a large portion of Christians view the Sabbath in new testament terms

What you do is of course between you and G-d and no one has the right to judge it. I am not telling you to do things any differently than you already do.

However, again, I must say, that I for one am not concerned about what a large portion of Christians believe. I concern myself with what the Scriptures say and how the L-rd leads.

I think we, as Believers in Messiah, should be willing to follow what He tells us to do, even if we are the ONLY ones doing it. For we answer to Him, not other's opinions.


but as I said, you have every right to keep the Sabbath in whatever manner you feel is right. Some might condemn you for lighting candles on the Sabbath but I think that would be wrong.

Condemn me for lighting candles on the Sabbath? :lol:
I agree with you, that would be most wrong according to the Scriptures and specifically Romans 14.



Again, thank you.

And thank you as well Brother. G-d's peace to you.



I know that God kept the first Sabbath in the book of Genesis. Is there any thing else written in Genesis that shows him not working on the Sabbath? It appears to be a one time event, then only commanded that man should rest every Saturday in the time of Moses.

I believe the wording in Genesis to be very clear that it was a not a one-time event.

Let's look:

Genesis 2:
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

OK, this was what He had done and the fact that He rested. Could be a one-time event, right?

Let's look at the NEXT verse...


3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

The verse says that He blessed that day. He set it apart and made it holy. That denotes more than a one-time event of resting. IN fact, the second half of the verse says WHY it is a continuous thing...to commemorate the FACT that G-d rested on the 7th day of Creation.

Anyway, that's how I see it and you asked, not because I am arguing with ya!

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 08:46 PM
I understand what you're saying. However, I'm not contending that there is anything wrong with doing good works. What I'm saying is that we are to do those good works everyday.

Shalom VR,

Yes, we do, BUT, you made the statement that the priests should not 'work" on the Sabbath by serving the L-rd in the Temple and I showed you that is incorrect. It is NEVER wrong to serve G-d on the Sabbath.




OK, we're back to the "old covenant" argument? We've gone WAY past that. This has nothing to do with the "old covenant", as the Sabbath was instituted at Creation and never rescinded or changed.


[quote] We no longer need a day set aside to enter into a temple built by the hands of men in order to do the work of God and be in His presence.

Again, nothing to do with what we're talking about. Jews celebrated the 7th-day Sabbath even without a temple. And no one ever said that one HAD to observe the Sabbath to be in His presence.

You are arguing things from a negative foundation - IOW, these arguments you are arguing against have NEVER been raised in this discussion. So, they are really going nowhere. It just seems you are arguing against the Sabbath and attributing all sorts of wrongs things to it that no one has ever said here.

So, may we just stick to the facts about the Sabbath?

We're not talking about the Law.
We're not talking about the Temple.
We're not talking about requirements.

We are past all that VR.


Again, this topic is certainly not to judge what others feel like they want to do for the Lord.

Really? :sad: That's what I keep seeing. Believers telling other Believers they are wrong for doing what G-d tells them to do concerning the Sabbath. That is judging, and it's wrong.



This is simply to educate others on whether or not something is Scripturally required in order for them to be obedient to the Lord.

It IS Scriptural. And if G-d leads someone to do it, they MUST be obedient.

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 09:00 PM
Yes, we do, BUT, you made the statement that the priests should not 'work" on the Sabbath by serving the L-rd in the Temple and I showed you that is incorrect. It is NEVER wrong to serve G-d on the Sabbath.

Where did I state that the priests weren't supposed to work on the Sabbath by serving the Lord in the temple? That's exactly the opposite of what I've been saying. I said they were supposed to, just like we are supposed to work for the Lord everyday under the New Covenant since we are the priests.

The rest has just become redundant, so I'm just going to step aside with this thread. Plenty has been said already to give everyone enough information to form a stance one way or the other on this issue.

God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 09:15 PM
The rest has just become redundant, so I'm just going to step aside with this thread. Plenty has been said already to give everyone enough information to form a stance one way or the other on this issue.God bless!

Shalom VR,

Yup! I hear ya!! :lol: Shalom!

Naphal
Sep 25th 2007, 01:02 AM
Quote:
but as I said, you have every right to keep the Sabbath in whatever manner you feel is right. Some might condemn you for lighting candles on the Sabbath but I think that would be wrong.
Condemn me for lighting candles on the Sabbath? :lol:
I agree with you, that would be most wrong according to the Scriptures and specifically Romans 14.

Agreed. Some more dogmatic keepers of the Sabbath oppose anyone who would kindle a fire on the Sabbath meaning lighting candles is forbidden.






I believe the wording in Genesis to be very clear that it was a not a one-time event.

Let's look:

Quote:
Genesis 2:

Quote:
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
OK, this was what He had done and the fact that He rested. Could be a one-time event, right?

Let's look at the NEXT verse...


Quote:
3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
The verse says that He blessed that day. He set it apart and made it holy. That denotes more than a one-time event of resting.


I agree that God blessed that particular day because it was the day he stopped working and rested but I don't see any evidence that God blessed the next Saturday or that God ever rested again on any other Saturdays.

And, then I don't see God telling man to keep the Sabbath until Moses.

Vickilynn
Sep 25th 2007, 01:15 AM
Agreed. Some more dogmatic keepers of the Sabbath oppose anyone who would kindle a fire on the Sabbath meaning lighting candles is forbidden.

Shalom Naphal,
They light candles too, on Friday night, before the sundown. We light ours on Friday night as well, when we start the Sabbath celebration. There is no conflict there.

Naphal
Sep 25th 2007, 02:11 AM
Shalom Naphal,
They light candles too, on Friday night, before the sundown. We light ours on Friday night as well, when we start the Sabbath celebration. There is no conflict there.
[/size]


Oh, I thought you lit the candles on the Sabbath.

Firstfruits
Sep 27th 2007, 02:52 PM
Oh, I thought you lit the candles on the Sabbath.

Hi Naphal

For your info, regarding the lighting of candles. Candles should be lit no later than 18 minuts before sundown. "Judaism 101"

FF

Matt14
Sep 27th 2007, 03:24 PM
Where does that instruction come from, I wonder? Jewish tradition?

Mograce2U
Sep 27th 2007, 03:51 PM
The Sabbaths were given to Israel as a sign that it was the Lord who sanctified them.

(Exo 31:13 KJV) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. (Ezek 20:12)

We are now a new generation and the cross is the sign we have that the Lord HAS sanctified us. Our celebration of that fact is done in the Lord's Table.

Dandylionheart
Sep 27th 2007, 07:44 PM
The Sabbaths were given to Israel as a sign that it was the Lord who sanctified them.

(Exo 31:13 KJV) Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. (Ezek 20:12)

We are now a new generation and the cross is the sign we have that the Lord HAS sanctified us. Our celebration of that fact is done in the Lord's Table.

Hello Mograce
Not sure if ive ever seen where the bible says the cross is now the sign that sanctifys us. The truth is, what you said is nowhere to be found in the bible.

EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify them”.

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

But...Mograce this “Day of the Lord” scripture will be fulfilled at the return of Christ. So, if THE SABBATH IS A SIGN THAT GOD SANCTIFYS YOU. Who are those that “sanctify themselves”? Pretty simple to figure out. This day will come to pass as it is written.

Hiding behind one tree? Wonder what that means?

third hero
Sep 27th 2007, 07:57 PM
However, before you're persuaded in your own mind study the scriptures and ask God to reveal to you the truth of things, and give you knowledge and understanding.

After you have exhausted it all, then you may be convinced in your own mind.

Peace to you,
Tanja

First of all, this is wisdom, what was quoteds above. First, on the account of the sabbath, make up your own mind.

To some, it will always be on the original day chosen since the time that the Torah was first written down. For others, everyday becomes likened to a Sabbath. First be convinced in your own mind what the Sabbath mean to you.

Then, once you are convinced, read Romans 14:5-6.

THE ONE THING THAT I FIND THAT MANY CHRISTIANS IGNORE IS THE FACT THAT PAUL STATES VERY PLAINLY THAT WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE ONE ANOTHER BASED ON WHAT DAY WE HOLD DEAR TO THE LORD! If we get to this point, then the question will be answered in the same manner that Christ answered it so long ago. "Do you not know that the Son of man is also Lord of the Sabbath?" -Matthew 12:8 (Hero's paraphrase version)

Dandylionheart
Sep 27th 2007, 08:26 PM
First of all, this is wisdom, what was quoteds above. First, on the account of the sabbath, make up your own mind.

To some, it will always be on the original day chosen since the time that the Torah was first written down. For others, everyday becomes likened to a Sabbath. First be convinced in your own mind what the Sabbath mean to you.

Then, once you are convinced, read Romans 14:5-6.

THE ONE THING THAT I FIND THAT MANY CHRISTIANS IGNORE IS THE FACT THAT PAUL STATES VERY PLAINLY THAT WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE ONE ANOTHER BASED ON WHAT DAY WE HOLD DEAR TO THE LORD! If we get to this point, then the question will be answered in the same manner that Christ answered it so long ago. "Do you not know that the Son of man is also Lord of the Sabbath?" -Matthew 12:8 (Hero's paraphrase version)

So, if 2 verses in Romans 14 are even remotely speaking about the sabbath, what are all the other verses in Romans 14 talking about. Meat and drink? What has meat and drink have to do with the sabbath? Unless ofcourse they are speaking of the meat and drink offerings of those days. Why would someone think that 2 verses about the sabbath are thrown into a whole chapter about eat and drink? Any answers.

Vickilynn
Sep 28th 2007, 03:34 AM
Hi Naphal

For your info, regarding the lighting of candles. Candles should be lit no later than 18 minuts before sundown. "Judaism 101"

FF

Shalom FF,

FYI, those Messianic Jews who do not follow the traditions of men do not follow "Judaism 101" or any such nonsense.

Naphal
Sep 28th 2007, 05:46 AM
Hi Naphal

For your info, regarding the lighting of candles. Candles should be lit no later than 18 minuts before sundown. "Judaism 101"

FF

Thank you. I searched around but didn't find why 18 min.

http://www.zionsake.org/articles/whywelight.html

Firstfruits
Sep 28th 2007, 07:52 AM
Thank you. I searched around but didn't find why 18 min.

http://www.zionsake.org/articles/whywelight.html


I also tried to find why and where in the scriptures the meaning of lighting candles, however I have only found a reason for for lighting them according to the Shabbat evening home ritual.

http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shabbat.htm

Mograce2U
Sep 28th 2007, 02:16 PM
I also tried to find why and where in the scriptures the meaning of lighting candles, however I have only found a reason for for lighting them according to the Shabbat evening home ritual.

http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shabbat.htm
From that site:




The Havdalah service marks the end of Shabbat. It should be performed no earlier than nightfall on Saturday night. Nightfall is the time when three stars can be seen in the sky. It is normally about 45 minutes to an hour after sundown, depending on your latitude. For the precise time when Shabbat ends in your area, consult the list of candle lighting times provided by the Orthodox Union (http://www.ou.org/zmanim/).
You will need three things for this ritual: a glass of wine or other liquid, some fragrant spices, and a special Havdalah candle.
...
The second blessing is recited over fragrant spices. The spices represent a compensation for the loss of the special sabbath spirit. The spices commonly used are cloves, cinnamon or bay leaves. They are commonly kept in a special decorated holder called a b'samim box.


I am wondering what that part I bolded means?

matthew94
Sep 28th 2007, 02:48 PM
What has meat and drink have to do with the sabbath? .....Why would someone think that 2 verses about the sabbath are thrown into a whole chapter about eat and drink? Any answers.

Maybe b/c they are all ceremonial laws and different kinds of 1st century Romans had different understandings of how to honor them.

Vickilynn
Sep 28th 2007, 04:47 PM
I also tried to find why and where in the scriptures the meaning of lighting candles, however I have only found a reason for for lighting them according to the Shabbat evening home ritual.

http://www.jewfaq.org/prayer/shabbat.htm

Shalom FF,

You should try Christian or Messianic sites, as these give a true picture of how we glorify Yeshua in the Sabbath. It serves no purpose to explore ritual for ritual sake, but only those that actually glorify Yeshua.

Here is a great one:

http://biblicalholidays.com/sabbath.htm


http://www.biblicalholidays.com/Sabbath/messiah_in_sabbath.htm
Messianic Significance of Sabbath



The Sabbath reminds us that God created the world.

The Sabbath reminds us that God delivered Israel from bondage in Egypt.

The Sabbath reminds us that Christ delivered us from the penalty of sin at Calvary.

The Sabbath reminds us that God will make us holy, just as He made the Sabbath holy.

The Sabbath reminds us that God will finish His work in our lives, just
as He finished His work of creation and redemption.

The Sabbath reminds us that God is our Lord and God.

The Sabbath reminds us that we have rest in Christ.
The rest that God intended for us to receive on Sabbath is not just a physical rest from our work or a mental and emotional rest from the stress of life. When Jesus said, Come unto me . . .I will give you rest (Matt. 11:28), He also said, ye will find rest unto your souls (Matt. 11:29). Entering that rest requires that we stop trying to save ourselves and rest in the finished work of Jesus.


The image of the joyless, somber restricting Sunday stems from the 16th century. Jesus defines the Sabbath in Matthew 12:8, For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath day [(!)] The Sabbath, as with the rest of the Bible finds fulfillment in Christ. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Rom. 10:4). Everything about the Sabbath teaches us something about the Messiah (Lancaster 1996).

The Candles
The Sabbath is full of customs and traditions far predating the time of
Jesus. The two candles that are lit to mark the beginning of the Sabbath are called the witness candles and they are symbolic of the two witnesses that stand before the Lord in Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4. They are Moses and Elijah, the personifications of the Torah and the Prophets. These same two witnesses appear with Messiah in the transfiguration. Each Friday evening the lighting of the two witness candles reminds us that Messiah is witnessed throughout the Torah (first five books of the Bible) and the Prophets.

The Wine
When the family is seated around the table, a declaration of the holiness of the Sabbath and the blessing of the wine is recited (Kiddush). The father lifts a cup of wine and says “Blessed are you, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth fruit from the vine.” Jesus says in John 15:5, I am the vine, ye are the branches, and in Mark 14:24, Jesus said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

The Bread
The special bread called Challah is covered with a cloth while Kiddush is
recited. Then the cloth is removed from the bread and the loaves are lifted up while a blessing is said: “Blessed are you Lord our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.” In the same way, the
Messiah was laid in the earth and covered with a cloth, And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulcher that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid (Luke 23:53). Then He was lifted up from the dead, brought forth from the earth, and exalted. The bread is broken and dispersed around the table.


The Sabbath blessings have not changed since before the time of Jesus. So when we read in the gospels that Jesus took a piece of bread, made the blessing, broke it, gave it to them and said, “Take it! This is my body,” we know what that blessing was: Blessed are you Lord our God, King of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth. It was a prophecy regarding his resurrection!

Havdalah Ceremony
Jesus is revealed even in the Havdalah ceremony. The wine is poured until it overflows and then the cup is lifted up again. Psalm 116:13 is recited, I will take the cup of Salvation and call upon the name of the Lord. The Hebrew word for Salvation is Yeshua (Jesus), so the above verse can be recited: “I will take the cup of Jesus and call upon the name of the Lord.” At the end of Havdalah, the lit candle is extinguished into the wine which has run over the cup. We see how in the same way the life of our Messiah was extinguished with the spilling of His blood. It is an awe-inspiring picture of our Lord’s sacrifice.

Prophecy
Just as at the completion of six days of work there comes a seventh day of rest, Messiah will reign over the earth for a thousand years at the
completion of the age. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day (2 Pet. 3:8). We are approximately six thousand years from creation and the thousand-year Sabbath reign of Jesus is at hand.

Vickilynn
Sep 28th 2007, 04:53 PM
Shalom,

Candle lighting times are dictated by the rabbis. 18 minutes after sundown is thought to be the latest you can light candles before the Sabbath begins. However, this is rabbinical thought, not in the Scriptures.

As to WHY we light the candles on Shabbat, check out these reasons:

http://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Shabbat/Candles/candles.html



Light of the world -


Blessing over the Sabbath Candleshttp://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif



I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. - Jesus http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif


http://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/point.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif
SABBATH CANDLES are lit by the (eldest) woman of the house no later than 18 minutes before sundown on Friday evening (i.e., before Shabbat begins). After kindling the candles, she waives her hands over the flames three times (as if welcoming in the Sabbath), and covering her eyes with her hands (so as not to see the candles burning) says:
http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif


http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif {you can click on the link and hear the prayer in Hebrew} http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif



Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe,
Who sanctified us with his commandments, and commanded us to be a light to the nations and Who gave to us Jesus our Messiah
the Light of the world.




Barukh attah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam,
asher kideshanu bemitzvotav ve-tsivanu lehiyot or
le-goyim v’natan-lanu et Yeshua Meshicheinu or ha-olam.

http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif
At this moment, when the family is gathered together, the woman may offer a silent or verbal prayer on behalf of her husband and children (in generations past, personal prayers in Yiddish called "techinot" were commonly said by Jewish women before doing a mitzvah and on special occasions).

A minimum of two candles are lit corresponding to the two expressions of Shabbat mentioned in Exodus 20:8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Exodus+20:8) ("Zakhor," remember) and Deuteronomy 5:12 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?&version=KJV&passage=Deuteronomy+5:12) ("Shamor," keep or guard). Some women add an additional light with the birth of each child and continue lighting it throughout the years. The candlesticks are often made of precious metal such as silver, and may be family heirlooms.

Candle Lighting Times (http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/)
The exact time for candle lighting is determined by Rabbinical authority and is known as Zmanim. A weekly Jewish calendar will indicate the time for your locality.
http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif http://hebrew4christians.com/clearpixel.gif

third hero
Sep 28th 2007, 05:03 PM
So, if 2 verses in Romans 14 are even remotely speaking about the sabbath, what are all the other verses in Romans 14 talking about. Meat and drink? What has meat and drink have to do with the sabbath? Unless ofcourse they are speaking of the meat and drink offerings of those days. Why would someone think that 2 verses about the sabbath are thrown into a whole chapter about eat and drink? Any answers.
The topic is about judging others. When it comes to meat, days of the week, and everything else, there comes a time when one must know what is the truth and what is not. Even today, we see the conflict between Jewish and Gentile believers concerning the Sabbath day.

(Oh, btw, if you are questioning whether Paul was talking about a day when it clearly says that one regards one "Day" above the rest, then I have no answer for you other than to say... Paul talked about the sabbath day because he mentions the word, "day" in those verses).

One thing that we must be aware of is this. Just like Jesus is Lord over our bodies, whereas we can choose to eat a thing or not to eat a thing unto the Lord, we have that choice with the Sabbath Day. Whether you like it or not, this is what Paul said. Be convinced, and do not judge each other. Jesus is the judge of the one who honors one day over another (Which is the definition of the sabbath day for those who do not know), and he is the judge of the ones who honors everyday unto the Lord. Jesus is the judge, and not us. We, the body of Christ, must understand that Jesus is the Head, and because He is the head, we are not to act as though we are the head, when we are only the body.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, just as He is lord over us. If anyone can judge one person or another concerning the Sabbath, I would assume that the Lord of it can be the one who judges. Jesus is the judge, not us. This is Paul's message, and it is also mine!

Dandylionheart
Sep 29th 2007, 09:36 AM
Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, just as He is lord over us. If anyone can judge one person or another concerning the Sabbath, I would assume that the Lord of it can be the one who judges. Jesus is the judge, not us. This is Paul's message, and it is also mine!

I can see that it is your message. If Paul was really speaking of the sabbath, im sure that you would see the sabbath mentioned somewhere in the scripture. It is no where to be found. Thus you are adding to the Word of God. Thats quite ironic. Your adding to the Word in order to squash Gods 4th commandment. Why does God say He does not want anyone to add onto His Word?

DEUT. 4 [2] YE SHALL NOT ADD UNTO THE WORD which I command you, NEITHER SHALL YE DIMINISH OUGHT FROM IT, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Dandylionheart
Sep 29th 2007, 09:51 AM
Well since you don't have the time to answer my question above, I'll go ahead and answer once again for you using scripture.

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

God is the beginning, the middle, and the end..that being said there is no day during man's lifetime that he can fully and properly represent God and the entirety of His Holiness - nor is there any human alive who has or will fulfill his 1000+ year sabbath referenced in the "7-day" Genesis account. That being said, everyday of a man's life should be a sabbath and Holy day unto the Lord. Stephen

I really dont quite understand. You bring up the scripture that speaks of the Alpha and the Omega and then proceed to try and squash His 4th commandment. Why? Youll find nothing in the WORD of God doing so.

REV. 22 [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, THE FIRST AND THE LAST. [14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Dandylionheart
Sep 29th 2007, 06:22 PM
Maybe b/c they are all ceremonial laws and different kinds of 1st century Romans had different understandings of how to honor them.

But Matthew94,
Maybe? You cant build a doctrine that will hold any water around a "maybe". Dont you agree?

Dandylionheart
Sep 30th 2007, 04:23 AM
So how did all this get started? Whom did the NEW TESTAMENT Word say we are to watch out for. What did they do?

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

This scripture says the devil is as a ROARING LION. And we as new testament believers are to watch out for these bad guys. Lets believe this scripture.

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

And the above scripture says we are to beware of false prophets. They are RAVENING WOLVES. Also implied here is that “the many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life. Lets believe this scripture.

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

Seems these GRIEVOUS WOLVES were there from the beginning. Lets believe this scripture.

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESSwith GREEDINESS.

Well, I found all these warnings from the new testament in one scripture. Another "Day of the Lord" scripture. Since “that day” has not yet arrived no one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel and does not apply to christians. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS!

For the most part when i present the scriptures, you guys dont confront them. You just go on and post another 1 liner. I ask you not to let this happen this time. Please lets talk about EZEK.22. It will come to pass. Please

Victorious1
Sep 30th 2007, 07:45 PM
It's a folly for Christians to live under a law or laws which no longer exist. This situation is like stopping at a corner after the stop signs has been removed. You can stop, but you don't have to. This is similar to Christians who adhere to keeping the Sabbath. Tradition must not blind us and keep us unaware of changes which occur as the Word of God progresses from one age to the next.

The law of the Sabbath were given to Israel and therefore, apply to Israel. Since these laws were never given to the Church, their interpretation cannot be for it. The Sabbath laws were applied to and for Israel and as such were never altered, changed or transferred to any other period.

The Scriptures clearly states that we as born-again sons of God are not under the law, but grace.

Romans 7:4:


Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body
on account ofthe body of Christ....How can the law possibly have power over us if the law is dead?

People trying to live under a law which does not pertain to them is not new in the Christian age. Paul had such in the church at Galatia.

Galatians 4:31:


So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.Galatians 5:1:


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage.Galatians 4:9-11:


(9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


(10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


(11) I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.Romans 14:5, 6


One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.Colossians 2:16:


Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:The vast majority of Christians assemble to worship on Sundays, on which day Jesus was first seen in his resurrected body. Simply because most of us observe Sunday, does not mean we keep it under the compulsion of the law; we keep it because we are under grace and wish to do so. In our age of the Church Administration, every day is sacred according to the Word of God, and not one day more so than any other day. Every day should be live unto the Lord, though in our tradition most Christians have set aside Sunday especially as a day of rest and special worship.

When we rightly divide the Word of Truth, we clear the atmosphere of the wrong teaching regarding the Sabbath and the other days mentioned in the Bible. We are not believers tied to one legalistic day of worship. We worship God daily in spirit and in truth. Tradition dare not blind us to the truth of the light of God's Word.

To God be the glory!

Mograce2U
Sep 30th 2007, 09:36 PM
Hi Dandylion, #286 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1396984&postcount=286)
Ezekiel is writing to a people returning from the Babylon capitivity who were still looking forward to Messiah's arrival. The Day of Jacob's trouble did come in the first century to those men who crucified the Lord and persecuted the saints. This is the audience who saw that prophecy fulfilled - the ones Jesus, Peter and Paul addressed.

Mograce2U
Sep 30th 2007, 09:50 PM
Hi Victorius1, #287 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1397298&postcount=287)
Welcome to the board. As a newbie, I presume you haven't seen this argument here before? Some see that we are now free to keep the law given to Moses and that is what is required by the Spirit who set us free from it. :confused The argument is that it is only the cermonial laws which need not be kept and that we should not judge those who wish to keep Sabbath and feast days in this new freedom. Which is the only part I agree with.

As for me, I think we ought to take the Light we have in Christ and move forward into love, instead of trying to take a candle back to the shadows so we can have a religious tradition to practice.

It seems to be Paul's plan as well:

(Phil 3:12-14 KJV) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. {13} Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, {14} I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Victorious1
Oct 1st 2007, 09:40 PM
Hi Victorius1, #287 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1397298&postcount=287)
Welcome to the board. As a newbie, I presume you haven't seen this argument here before? Some see that we are now free to keep the law given to Moses and that is what is required by the Spirit who set us free from it. :confused The argument is that it is only the cermonial laws which need not be kept and that we should not judge those who wish to keep Sabbath and feast days in this new freedom. Which is the only part I agree with.
Thanks for the welcome. I believe I covered the argument you mentioned in the above quote in the post I did yesterday: "It's a folly for Christians to live under a law or laws (including ceremonial laws) which no longer exist."

matthew94
Oct 1st 2007, 11:03 PM
But Matthew94,
Maybe? You cant build a doctrine that will hold any water around a "maybe". Dont you agree?

Tone doesn't come through on message boards. I apologize. Eliminate the 'maybe' and you'd encounter my meaning. That Sabbath is treated as a ceremonial law in the NT, just like kosher laws, is not a doctrine needing to be built. It's a doctrine which presents itself.

Vickilynn
Oct 2nd 2007, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the welcome. I believe I covered the argument you mentioned in the above quote in the post I did yesterday: "It's a folly for Christians to live under a law or laws (including ceremonial laws) which no longer exist."


Shalom Victorious,

If you will read this entire thread, your argument has been dealt with so many times!! It will really help you when you enter an ongoing disucssion, to read what has been said prior to you enterig so that you won't be posting what has already been posted over and over.

BTW, welcome to the board!

Number One, the Sabbath is NOT being under the law. Please read Genesis 2, where G-d instituted the th day, blessed it and made it holy. He has never changed that. Thus the 7-th day Sabbath remains.

Number Two: You are mistaken if you think that the Law "no longer exists." In fact, Jesus made them MORE stringent, adding the attitudes of the heart to the outward actions.

Let's look at the words of Jesus:

Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

"Fulfill" does NOT mean to cause them to cease to exist.

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

"ALL" is not accomplished yet, since we still live on the Earth awaiting Jesus' return.

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

VerticalReality
Oct 2nd 2007, 03:40 PM
Shalom Victorious,

If you will read this entire thread, your argument has been dealt with so many times!! It will really help you when you enter an ongoing disucssion, to read what has been said prior to you enterig so that you won't be posting what has already been posted over and over.

BTW, welcome to the board!

Number One, the Sabbath is NOT being under the law. Please read Genesis 2, where G-d instituted the th day, blessed it and made it holy. He has never changed that. Thus the 7-th day Sabbath remains.

Number Two: You are mistaken if you think that the Law "no longer exists." In fact, Jesus made them MORE stringent, adding the attitudes of the heart to the outward actions.

Let's look at the words of Jesus:

Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

"Fulfill" does NOT mean to cause them to cease to exist.

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

"ALL" is not accomplished yet, since we still live on the Earth awaiting Jesus' return.

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Actually, your point of view is not the only one in this thread, and other Sabbath observers have commented that it is about the law. JIMH being the one that comes to mind immediately. You may not observe it for that reason, but others do. So the comments in this thread regarding the fact that we are not under the law anymore certainly apply to these folks' point of view. If that doesn't apply to you then great! That is a good thing because I hate to see folks trying to place a yoke upon themselves that nobody else could fulfill but Jesus Christ.

Vickilynn
Oct 2nd 2007, 04:28 PM
Actually, your point of view is not the only one in this thread,

Shalom VR,

Actually, that is rude and uncalled for.

I never said such a thing. I posted MY views, as do you. I am entitled to my Biblical views, as are you.
If you don't like my posts, I have told you before, you have the freedom to skip them as I do yours and I am exercising that freedom.

I edited the rest of my post.

VR, I'm ignoring your posts since you only want to argue personally with me and that is not helpful or edifying at all. Shalom.

VerticalReality
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:06 PM
Shalom VR,

Actually, that is rude and uncalled for.

I wasn't trying to be rude. Just informing you that when someone makes the point that keeping the Sabbath is part of keeping the law it doesn't mean they are addressing your comments. They could be addressing the many comments from folks like JIMH who have made it clear that they believe that keeping the Sabbath is part of the law. Therefore, when you respond to their posts with things like . . .



If you will read this entire thread, your argument has been dealt with so many times!! It will really help you when you enter an ongoing disucssion, to read what has been said prior to you enterig so that you won't be posting what has already been posted over and over.

Number One, the Sabbath is NOT being under the law.


. . . you are incorrect in your assertion. It has been stated many times in this thread by others that the Sabbath IS about the law, which in turn would totally negate the need for your comments because the fact of the matter is that the law is involved in this topic. Again, if it doesn't concern you that is great. However, you aren't the only one posting here, and your view is not the only view being refuted.

Sorry you took offense, but I wasn't trying to be "rude" or anything else. Just giving you some insight into why the topic of the law is still being discussed even though it doesn't relate to your view.

Theophilus
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:09 PM
Man, I can just feel the love everywhere! :hug:

Now, boys and girls, have we beaten this topic to death yet? I'd like to hear from any active posters (VL and VR, for example) if this thread is ready to be closed.

Hey! VR and VL...both have "V's!" Are you guys related?:)

VerticalReality
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:28 PM
Are you guys related?:)

Absolutely! The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ makes us all one big happy family!:pp

As for the topic. I think everyone has plenty of information for both arguments to make a decision one way or the other.

Vickilynn
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:39 PM
Man, I can just feel the love everywhere! :hug:

Now, boys and girls, have we beaten this topic to death yet? I'd like to hear from any active posters (VL and VR, for example) if this thread is ready to be closed.

Shalom Theophilus,

Actually, I reported VR's rude post and asked that this thread be closed. It has run it's course and has gone in circles for some time now. It has ceased to be anything but argumentative, IMHO.

Theophilus
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:40 PM
Absolutely! The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ makes us all one big happy family!:pp

Excellent point.


As for the topic. I think everyone has plenty of information for both arguments to make a decision one way or the other.
That's one "aye"...Anyone else? Anyone?

Beuller? Beuller?

Theophilus
Oct 2nd 2007, 06:53 PM
You know, I'm given a fair amount of leeway in dealing with people, so I'm not going to ask anyone to start a chat to moderator, or start tossing out infractions.

What I am going to do is say this: In the future, when you're in a forum that I'm moderating, remember that being a participant requires love not only when you post, but also when you read a post. Actually, that should be true in any forum, but in here, things can get heated at times...and it requires people to try to see each other as brothers and sisters, not as an adversary. Last time I checked, the only adversary we really have is satan.

If anyone feels I've been overly lenient, my apologies. Feel free to contact ProjectPeter or The Parson if my modding doesn't suit you...I am always open to suggestion and criticism, realizing that I don't know it all, and I can use such input for positive growth.

In Him, always.

Theophilus