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Myqyl
Sep 18th 2007, 01:26 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on a question I have... I've seen this as a sub-theme in several threads and think it deserves (pardon the pun) it's own day in the sun :D

Is the Sabbath still in effect?

If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?

And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?

I'd give you my thoughts now, but I'm not sure I have an answer here... Just a question ;)

Thanks and God Bless!

Sold Out
Sep 18th 2007, 02:23 PM
The sabbath (specifically) was for the Jews, as it was a part of the Old Testament laws. When Jesus came, the law was fulfilled.

That does not negate, however, the fact that we need to give God at least one day out of our week set aside to worship and rest, be it Sunday, Saturday, etc etc.

Of course Sunday is preferable since most churches assemble on Sundays.

matthew94
Sep 18th 2007, 02:33 PM
I believe Jesus' teachings in the NT, and a common sense approach to the OT, indicate that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law. All OT ceremonial laws were shadows of a greater reality that we experience in Christ. In my opinion, the NT teaches & the church of the first 3 centuries believed that we now enjoy a perpetual Sabbath. Sunday through Friday were elevated to the level of Saturday and now we can and must rest from our 'works' and 'worship' the Lord 24/7.

Paul_born_again
Sep 18th 2007, 03:21 PM
Hi Myqyl :)
Check out this thread for some recent discussion on the subject of Saturday vs. Sunday: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=99133

Vickilynn
Sep 18th 2007, 03:45 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on a question I have... I've seen this as a sub-theme in several threads and think it deserves (pardon the pun) it's own day in the sun :D

Is the Sabbath still in effect?

If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?

And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?

I'd give you my thoughts now, but I'm not sure I have an answer here... Just a question ;)

Thanks and God Bless!

Shalom and WELCOME to the board!!!!

Just so you know, this subject is one of the most posted and re-posted topics!! You can do a search on the board and find OOOOOODLES of Sabbath threads.

Your question specifically was:

Is the Sabbath still in effect? The answer is YES. G-d never rescinded the Sabbath, so it is still on Saturday. Actually the Biblical day starts at sundown, so the Sabbath remains as the 7th day at sundown.


If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?According to the Bible (BEFORE THE LAWS AND BEFORE THE JEWS) G-d rested on the 7th day and it holy. He has never changed that, so yes, the Sabbath remains as the 7th day, a holy day, a day of rest.
Genesis 2
2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.


And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?We do as G-d did. Rest from our works (normal, mundane works) and we focus on Him (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and do things that glorify Jesus. We are not made holy by celebrating the Sabbath though, Jesus does that for us when we give our lives to Him. But, if we want to honor Him, His Word and His ways, we still observe and celebrate the Sabbath on the 7th day.

In our home we celebrate Sabbath Friday night and Saturday and pay special attention to giving Him thanks, staying in the Word, doing good things, sharing the Gospel, showing hospitality in His name.

HE is Holy and we give Him glory every day. But since G-d called out the seventh day for many reasons, we observe the day as a special time of communion and worship.

Sunday is a wonderful day to meet with the saints. We go to church on Sundays. But it is not the Sabbath. 2 different days. The Scriptures refer to Sunday as the first day of the week, the day Jesus arose, and many early churches met on Sundays. There is nothing wrong with meeting, worshiping, giving glory to G-d on Sunday, but it is not the day of rest, the Sabbath.

Everyday is a day devoted to worshiping G-d. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. We are to be in prayer all the time. We are to serve all the time. However, there remains a Sabbath rest for G-d's people by lifting up and glorifying Jesus above all things and above all work:

Hebrews 4:
Hebrews 4

1 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

"As I swore in my wrath,'They shall not enter my rest,'"

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." 5And again in this passage he said,

"They shall not enter my rest."


6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts."
8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.



9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.


11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 sharper than anyFor the word of God is living and active, two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.


.

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2007, 03:00 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on a question I have... I've seen this as a sub-theme in several threads and think it deserves (pardon the pun) it's own day in the sun :D

Is the Sabbath still in effect?

If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?

And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?

I'd give you my thoughts now, but I'm not sure I have an answer here... Just a question ;)

Thanks and God Bless!

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day regardeth it to the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. Romans 14:5,6.

Be persuaded in your own mind!

God Bless

FF

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 19th 2007, 04:05 PM
Be persuaded in your own mind!


However, before you're persuaded in your own mind study the scriptures and ask God to reveal to you the truth of things, and give you knowledge and understanding.

After you have exhausted it all, then you may be convinced in your own mind.

Peace to you,
Tanja

Vickilynn
Sep 19th 2007, 05:14 PM
However, before you're persuaded in your own mind study the scriptures and ask God to reveal to you the truth of things, and give you knowledge and understanding.

After you have exhausted it all, then you may be convinced in your own mind.

Peace to you,
Tanja


Shalom Tanja,

Amen, studying the Scriptures comes FIRST because we need the mind of G-d and His truth to be fully convinced of.

We are not to be fully convinced of whatever we think, but we are to study, study, study, ask for the L-rd to show us the truth and stand on THAT, fully convinced that we have heard from the L-rd.

Firstfruits
Sep 19th 2007, 07:38 PM
However, before you're persuaded in your own mind study the scriptures and ask God to reveal to you the truth of things, and give you knowledge and understanding.

After you have exhausted it all, then you may be convinced in your own mind.

Peace to you,
Tanja

Let us have a look at what Paul said in Galatians 4:9,10.

But now after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have beststowed upon you labour in vain.

This again is Paul speaking, so from your studies, what is Paul speaking about?

FF

Vickilynn
Sep 19th 2007, 08:19 PM
Let us have a look at what Paul said in Galatians 4:9,10.

But now after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have beststowed upon you labour in vain.

This again is Paul speaking, so from your studies, what is Paul speaking about?

FF

Shalom FF,

What I know is that he is NOT speaking of the Sabbath celebration in Messiah or forbidding it. In fact, I believe that Paul is referring to idol worship, not G-d's holy days, which PAUL HIMSELF observed. Also,


8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. This refers to idols, not G-d.


9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? (pagan worship)


10You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Vickilynn
Sep 19th 2007, 09:06 PM
Shalom,

Matthew Henry's commentary on Galatians 4:9-10)


http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=56&source=2&seq=i.55.4.2
The happy change made in the Gentile believers.


The happy change whereby the Galatians were turned from idols to the living God, and through Christ had received the adoption of sons, was the effect of his free and rich grace; they were laid under the greater obligation to keep to the liberty wherewith he had made them free.



All our knowledge of God begins on his part; we know him because we are known of him. Though our religion forbids idolatry, yet many practice spiritual idolatry in their hearts. For what a man loves most, and
cares most for, that is his god: some have their riches for their god, some their pleasures, and some their lusts. And many ignorantly worship a god of their own making; a god made all of mercy and no justice. For they persuade themselves that there is mercy for them with God, though they repent not, but go on in their sins. It is possible for those who have made great professions of religion, to be afterwards drawn aside from purity and simplicity.



And the more mercy God has shown, in bringing any to know the gospel, and the liberties and privileges of it, the greater their sin and folly in suffering themselves to be deprived of them. Hence all who are members of the outward church should learn to fear and to suspect themselves. We must not be content because we have some good things in ourselves. Paul fears lest his labour is in vain, yet he still labours; and thus to do, whatever follows, is true wisdom and the fear of God. This every man must remember in his place and calling.

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 11:01 AM
Colossians 2:16&17
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.

This tells me that God no longer requires anyone to practice the old covenant observance of special feasts holidays or sabbaths.

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2007, 12:22 PM
It is written; If our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we recieve of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should believe on his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he (Jesus) gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his (Christs) commandments dewleth in him (Christ), and he in him (Christ). And hereby we know that he (Jesus) abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:21-24

It is by keeping Christs commandments that we abide in Christ, and Christ in us.

It is also written: And he is our propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Andhereby we do know that we know him (Jesus), if we keep his (Jesus) commandment. he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his (Christs) word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hreby know we that we are in him.

It is the word/teaching/commandments of Christ, that if we abide that we are not condemned.

It is written that if we keep the whole law of Moses and yet offend in one point that we are guilty of all, we are condemned. James 2:10.

Let me say this, the Mosaic law is not wrong, it came from God, but if not kept as given by God through Moses, it Condemns.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 01:46 PM
Colossians 2:16&17
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.

This tells me that God no longer requires anyone to practice the old covenant observance of special feasts holidays or sabbaths.

Shalom Jiggy,

Actually, you've got that backwards! :lol: It means that we have the FREEDOM to observe the Sabbath without judgment, criticism or condemnation from other Christians. This passage was speaking to those in the L-rd who were observing Biblical feasts and Sabbaths and receiving flack for it, just like today.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 01:49 PM
It is written; If our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we recieve of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
AND THIS IS HIS COMMANDMENT, That we should believe on his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he (Jesus) gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his (Christs) commandments dewleth in him (Christ), and he in him (Christ). And hereby we know that he (Jesus) abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:21-24

It is by keeping Christs commandments that we abide in Christ, and Christ in us.

It is also written: And he is our propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Andhereby we do know that we know him (Jesus), if we keep his (Jesus) commandment. he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his (Christs) word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hreby know we that we are in him.

It is the word/teaching/commandments of Christ, that if we abide that we are not condemned.

It is written that if we keep the whole law of Moses and yet offend in one point that we are guilty of all, we are condemned. James 2:10.

Let me say this, the Mosaic law is not wrong, it came from God, but if not kept as given by God through Moses, it Condemns.


Shalom FF,

Well, you've gone off on some sort of tangent. Your responses are common, but they are misrepresentative of the truth concerning this topic.

No one is condemning anyone for not observing the Sabbath.

No one is "keeping the Law."

The Sabbath has nothing to do with the Mosiac Law.

No one is saying Christians MUST observe the Sabbath.

Christians who condemn others Christians for observing the Sabbath in the Messiah are in error. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Matt14
Sep 20th 2007, 02:00 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on a question I have... I've seen this as a sub-theme in several threads and think it deserves (pardon the pun) it's own day in the sun :D

Is the Sabbath still in effect?

If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?

And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?

I'd give you my thoughts now, but I'm not sure I have an answer here... Just a question ;)

Thanks and God Bless!

Hello Myqyl!

According to the New Testament:

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

and also:

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Is the Sabbath observance part of the Law of Moses?

If so, do you find your answer here in these scriptures? Christians worship on the first day of the week because that is the day on which Jesus rose from the dead. The Sabbath observance with its legal demands (no working, no cooking, no traveling, etc.) are in no way binding upon the New Testament Christian. Those who seek to serve the Law of Moses are following a dead end path!

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

God bless!

-

Matt14
Sep 20th 2007, 02:04 PM
Shalom FF,

Well, you've gone off on some sort of tangent. Your responses are common, but they are misrepresentative of the truth concerning this topic.

No one is condemning anyone for not observing the Sabbath.

No one is "keeping the Law."

The Sabbath has nothing to do with the Mosiac Law.

No one is saying Christians MUST observe the Sabbath.

Christians who condemn others Christians for observing the Sabbath in the Messiah are in error. (Colossians 2:16-17)

The Sabbath observance is either in effect, or it is not. There is no middle ground. The Sabbath does, in fact, have to do with the Law of Moses. The Sabbath regulations were enforced with the giving of the Law.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 02:07 PM
Is the Sabbath observance part of the Law of Moses?

Shalom Math14,
Good to see you again. :D

The answer is NO.The Sabbath is not the Mosaic Law.
The Sabbath was instituted at Creation. Genesis 2
Those, like my family, who celebrate and observe the Sabbath in Messiah do not do so out of "bondage", "slavery" or following "the Law."

These are simply not accurate when dealing with this issue with Christians and not Jews.

Toolman
Sep 20th 2007, 02:07 PM
I believe Jesus' teachings in the NT, and a common sense approach to the OT, indicate that the Sabbath was a ceremonial law. All OT ceremonial laws were shadows of a greater reality that we experience in Christ. In my opinion, the NT teaches & the church of the first 3 centuries believed that we now enjoy a perpetual Sabbath. Sunday through Friday were elevated to the level of Saturday and now we can and must rest from our 'works' and 'worship' the Lord 24/7.

Amen!...........

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 02:09 PM
The Sabbath observance is either in effect, or it is not. There is no middle ground. The Sabbath does, in fact, have to do with the Law of Moses. The Sabbath regulations were enforced with the giving of the Law.

Shalom,

The Sabbath, does NOT, in fact, have anything to do with the Law of Moses. Genesis 2.

The Sabbath is "in effect" because the 7th day was never "un-made" the day of rest as G-d made it. The day remains the Sabbath.

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Adam
Sep 20th 2007, 02:22 PM
Shalom FF,

What I know is that he is NOT speaking of the Sabbath celebration in Messiah or forbidding it. In fact, I believe that Paul is referring to idol worship, not G-d's holy days, which PAUL HIMSELF observed. Also,

This refers to idols, not G-d.


Yes, but the elevation of the Sabbath for Christians can become an idol too. Just as other 'works' can, like writing 'Lord' 'L_ord' and 'God' 'G_od' all the time or making sure that you pronounce all the originally Hebrew names in the NT in a Hebrew kind of way. This is all part of a ritualistically inclined observance of God's Law, which is not NT teaching. By the way, if we are to pronounce Jesus 'Yeshua' etc. -- and this is a rhetorical question --, should we not also pronounce 'Paul' 'Paulos', 'Peter' 'Petros' etc? After all, this is how these names were pronounced in Classical Greek days. Observing all these rules and regulations that are so predominant in Messianic circles is very much like straining out gnats (Mt 23:24). Christ's message is about loving Him and yearning for Him, His coming and His Kingdom, not about a list of required works. So let's not swallow the camel!

VerticalReality
Sep 20th 2007, 02:44 PM
Yes, but the elevation of the Sabbath for Christians can become an idol too. Just as other 'works' can, like writing 'Lord' 'L_ord' and 'God' 'G_od' all the time or making sure that you pronounce all the originally Hebrew names in the NT in a Hebrew kind of way. This is all part of a ritualistically inclined observance of God's Law, which is not NT teaching. By the way, if we are to pronounce Jesus 'Yeshua' etc. -- and this is a rhetorical question --, should we not also pronounce 'Paul' 'Paulos', 'Peter' 'Petros' etc? After all, this is how these names were pronounced in Classical Greek days. Observing all these rules and regulations that are so predominant in Messianic circles is very much like straining out gnats (Mt 23:24). Christ's message is about loving Him and yearning for Him, His coming and His Kingdom, not about a list of required works. So let's not swallow the camel!

Nevermind. I'll chuckle to myself.

Theophilus
Sep 20th 2007, 02:53 PM
Whether we "get" something or not (such as using Shalom as a greeting, or leaving out certain letters in God or Lord), making what appears to be to me "snarky" comments about such practices is a "no no."

Has anyone complained to me? No...and I plan on keeping it that way.

If you have questions about why people do certain things, ask them. I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you why.

We operate as Christians in charitable love, and with liberty...and with respect to others.

Am I clear?:)

VerticalReality
Sep 20th 2007, 02:58 PM
Whether we "get" something or not (such as using Shalom as a greeting, or leaving out certain letters in God or Lord), making what appears to be to me "snarky" comments about such practices is a "no no."

Has anyone complained to me? No...and I plan on keeping it that way.

If you have questions about why people do certain things, ask them. I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you why.

We operate as Christians in charitable love, and with liberty...and with respect to others.

Am I clear?:)

I'm not sure what snarky means, but I just get a little giggle out of it. Is that wrong? I find humor in a lot of things people do. I certainly don't mean offense by it. I'm sure there are things I do that others find humorous. Everything would be a lot better if people could learn to laugh at themselves a little bit and not take everything so seriously. If it's that serious an issue, we can just leave it there. It's not that important to me. Adam's comments just brought the topic to mind is all.

For instance, Theophilus, many people here in Ohio get a giggle out of my accent since I am from the south. Being from Tennessee and all, I tend to have that southern drawl when speaking. I don't get bent out shape when they mention it or giggle about it. It's just the way it is. I don't mean offense just like they don't mean offense.

***EDIT***

Tell you what, though, Theophilus. Since it brought question, I'll just go ahead and delete the post. There's no point in people misunderstanding or taking offense over nothing.

Matt14
Sep 20th 2007, 03:06 PM
Shalom,

The Sabbath, does NOT, in fact, have anything to do with the Law of Moses. Genesis 2.

The Sabbath is "in effect" because the 7th day was never "un-made" the day of rest as G-d made it. The day remains the Sabbath.

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

Firstfruits
Sep 20th 2007, 03:08 PM
Shalom,

The Sabbath, does NOT, in fact, have anything to do with the Law of Moses. Genesis 2.

The Sabbath is "in effect" because the 7th day was never "un-made" the day of rest as G-d made it. The day remains the Sabbath.

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Since the sabbath day does not have anything to do with the law of Moses, there is therefore no requirement/commandment to keep it from God.

That being the case, until it became law, God had not commanded Israel they had to rest. Is this right or wrong? Once the law is in effect, then that is what those that keep it are governed by, unless God changes what he has commanded, then Gods law must come first.

So even if it was not apart of the law of Moses, it is now,according to Gods will.

Theophilus
Sep 20th 2007, 03:16 PM
... I'll just go ahead and delete the post...
Well, I didn't ask for that, but I appreciate it, anyway.

...and as a lifelong resident of WV, I get my share of the accent giggles, so I know of what you speak.

Thanks.

Myqyl
Sep 20th 2007, 04:23 PM
Thank you all... Especially Vickilynn... I've never looked from that perspective before... I think I found my answer in Exodus 20 ;)

1 Then God delivered all these commandments:

8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The reality of my job will make this difficult, as I often travel and have to fly home from teaching engagements Saturday morning... But I have long since learned to pray on planes :)

I take this within the context of Matthew 12 :

10 And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Jesus is not saying "Sabbath? What Sabbath? That's the old law"... Instead He says "... it is lawful to do good on the sabbath"... Jesus does not abolish the sabbath, He extends and clarifies the commandment given by His Father (it's not the law of Moses... Exodus 20:1 Then God delivered all these commandments)...

Matt14
Sep 20th 2007, 05:35 PM
Thank you all... Especially Vickilynn... I've never looked from that perspective before... I think I found my answer in Exodus 20 ;)

1 Then God delivered all these commandments:

8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The reality of my job will make this difficult, as I often travel and have to fly home from teaching engagements Saturday morning... But I have long since learned to pray on planes :)

I take this within the context of Matthew 12 :

10 And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Jesus is not saying "Sabbath? What Sabbath? That's the old law"... Instead He says "... it is lawful to do good on the sabbath"... Jesus does not abolish the sabbath, He extends and clarifies the commandment given by His Father (it's not the law of Moses... Exodus 20:1 Then God delivered all these commandments)...

And the commandments God delivered were nailed to the cross by Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, so that you would not have to be bound by the Law!

Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

The Law was a tutor until faith came. It is no longer the Law that you should serve:

Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."

If you are bound to keep the Sabbath, will you also keep the other 612?

Peter said we should not bind such things on the Gentiles, since the Jews themselves could not keep them!

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

God bless.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 08:37 PM
Yes, but the elevation of the Sabbath for Christians can become an idol too.

Shalom Adam,

That's has nothing to do with the Scriptural foundation for celebrating the Sabbath. Going to church can become an idol, anything can, so that argument is misplaced concerning the Sabbath. It's up to each Believer to make sure what they are doing, whatever it is, is for the glory of G-d.

Just as other 'works' can, like writing 'Lord' 'L_ord' and 'God' 'G_od' all the time or making sure that you pronounce all the originally Hebrew names in the NT in a Hebrew kind of way. [/quote]

Ummm, you are judging the way I write? Do you know why I do what I do?
No. Yet you make a judgment of my heart motives? Brother, this is sin.

Debate the issues, not the poster. If you have a problem with Messianics, then you should according to the Bible, get it straightened out. However, you should not judge what you do not know - mainly the heart of the Believer.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 08:39 PM
Whether we "get" something or not (such as using Shalom as a greeting, or leaving out certain letters in God or Lord), making what appears to be to me "snarky" comments about such practices is a "no no."

Shalom Theophilus,

THANK YOU!!!!!!! Thank you for pointing out and standing up for the truth! Amen!


Has anyone complained to me? No...and I plan on keeping it that way.

If you have questions about why people do certain things, ask them. I'm sure they'll be happy to tell you why.

Amen and amen. The Scriptures command it and forbid the "snarkiness."


We operate as Christians in charitable love, and with liberty...and with respect to others.

Am I clear?:)

Yessir and AMEN!!!!

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 08:47 PM
Since the sabbath day does not have anything to do with the law of Moses, there is therefore no requirement/commandment to keep it from God.

Shalom FF,

So, we've discussed this already. Been there, done that and burned the T-Shirt.

NO ONE, please hear me, NO ONE is saying it is a requirement for Believers in Messiah. That has been stated ad nauseam. Since it's been established already, there is no need to keep repeating it.


That being the case, until it became law, God had not commanded Israel they had to rest. Is this right or wrong? Once the law is in effect, then that is what those that keep it are governed by, unless God changes what he has commanded, then Gods law must come first. Hello. We're not talking about the Law. We're talking about G-d's Word. Read Genesis 2 again. We are not following the Law of Moses, once again and again and again.


So even if it was not a part of the law of Moses, it is now,according to Gods will.It is for those UNDER the Law, which we are not.

The Sabbath was established before the Law. It is still in effect since it was never rescinded.

According to Colossians, Christians need to stop judging other Christians for observing it unto the L-rd, for it is covered under the freedom of Believers to do so, without judgment.

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 08:49 PM
Shalom Jiggy,

Actually, you've got that backwards! :lol: It means that we have the FREEDOM to observe the Sabbath without judgment, criticism or condemnation from other Christians. This passage was speaking to those in the L-rd who were observing Biblical feasts and Sabbaths and receiving flack for it, just like today.
No I disagree, you are the one who has it backwards, Paul even states in verse 17 that the sabbath, feasts and holy days were mere shadows of something far, far better, Jesus the Christ. As far as I am concerned you can celebrate what ever you want just don't make it a requirement for everyone else. The scriptures speak very expressly about God's desire for us to enter into a new and better covenant.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 08:51 PM
Thank you all... Especially Vickilynn... I've never looked from that perspective before... I think I found my answer in Exodus 20 ;)

Shalom Myqyl,

Amen!! Awesome!!


1 Then God delivered all these commandments:

8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


The reality of my job will make this difficult, as I often travel and have to fly home from teaching engagements Saturday morning... But I have long since learned to pray on planes :)

:pp


I take this within the context of Matthew 12 :

10 And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Yup, you GOT IT! :idea:


Jesus is not saying "Sabbath? What Sabbath? That's the old law"... Instead He says "... it is lawful to do good on the sabbath"... Jesus does not abolish the sabbath, He extends and clarifies the commandment given by His Father (it's not the law of Moses... Exodus 20:1 Then God delivered all these commandments)...

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
You understood and grasped with spiritual eyes what many a religious Christian misses - the spirit of the Sabbath and what Jesus REALLY said and did. He did not abolish it, He extended it!!! Praise the L-rd!

Toolman
Sep 20th 2007, 08:56 PM
You understood and grasped with spiritual eyes what many a religious Christian misses - the spirit of the Sabbath and what Jesus REALLY said and did. He did not abolish it, He extended it!!! Praise the L-rd!

Vick,

You said:

"Yet you make a judgment of my heart motives? Brother, this is sin.
Debate the issues, not the poster."

So, are those who disagree with your conclusion, that Jesus was not extending the Sabbath, "religious Christians" and don't have "spiritual eyes"?

I would say just give the same thing you are asking for. The ability for those who do not agree with your position to follow their own convictions without being judged.

FWIW.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 09:02 PM
No I disagree, you are the one who has it backwards, Paul even states in verse 17 that the sabboth, feasts and holy days were mere shadows of something far, far better, Jesus the Christ. As far as I am concerned you can celebrate what ever you want just don't make it a requirement for everyone else.

Shalom Jiggy,

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change the context of what Paul is saying. He is NOT condemning G-d's holy days! In fact, Paul observed them. He would be a liar and a hypocrite to say what you are saying he said.

Nope, I believe he was referring to Gentiles going back to pagan worship and idol worship and imitating the Jews' practices, but not following G-d. If you read the previous verses, he says it clearly:

Verse 8:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul is not speaking of G-d's days.


6Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. What I see he is saying here is not to let judgmental Christians stop the Believer from worshiping G-d in the Sabbath or in other Messianic expressions. This is a support to the Believer who observes Sabbath because Paul is saying not to let people dissuade us from worshiping Jesus in this way, because we are worshiping the REAL substance - Jesus.


As far as I am concerned you can celebrate what ever you want just don't make it a requirement for everyone else.Well, that's mighty kind of you, but it's not you I answer to.
You see, what I do or do not celebrate is agreed upon between the L-rd and myself and I don't need any man's permission to do what G-d has called me to do.

But I will say this again, for those Christians who JUDGE another Christian for observing the Sabbath, this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

And I'll say this again for the millionth time - no one, no how, no place in this thread has said it is a requirement so this has now become a STRAW MAN argument. It's redundant and it's time to drop that since it does not apply to this conversation. :D

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 09:06 PM
Vick,

You said:

"Yet you make a judgment of my heart motives? Brother, this is sin.
Debate the issues, not the poster."

So, are those who disagree with your conclusion, that Jesus was not extending the Sabbath, "religious Christians" and don't have "spiritual eyes"?

Shalom Toolman,

Oh, that's ridiculous. I never said anything of the sort and you know it. You turned a positive statement into a negative condemnation, which I NEVER said or implied. You can read whatever you want into my words Toolman, but you said it, I didn't.

I said that Myqyl got what I was saying and why I said it. You read your own negative interpretation into that, but you are wrong.

I am not judging anyone, but y'all are sure having a field day judging. :D I've never said anyone MUST. I only said I have the FREEDOM according to the Scriptures to observe as I am led without repeated condemnation for doing so.

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 09:12 PM
Shalom Jiggy,

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change the context of what Paul is saying. He is NOT condemning G-d's holy days! In fact, Paul observed them. He would be a liar and a hypocrite to say what you are saying he said.

Nope, I believe he was referring to Gentiles going back to pagan worship and idol worship and imitating the Jews' practices, but not following G-s. If you read the previous verses, he says it clearly:

Verse 8:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul is not speaking of G-d's days.



What I see he is saying here is not to let judgmental Christians stop the Believer from worshiping G-d in the Sabbath or in other Messianic expressions. This is a support to the Believer who observes Sabbath because Paul is saying not to let people dissuade us from worshiping Jesus in this way, because we are worshiping the REAL substance - Jesus.



Well, that's mighty kind of you, but it's not you I answer to.
You see, what I do or do not celebrate is agreed upon between the L-rd and myself and I don't need any man's permission to do what G-d has called me to do.

But I will say this again, for those Christians who JUDGE another Christian for observing the Sabbath, this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

And I'll say this again for the millionth time - no one, no how, no place in this thread has said it is a requirement so this has now become a STRAW MAN argument. It's redundant and it's time to drop that since it does not apply to this conversation. :D

You might want to include in your future posts then that God no longer requires anyone to adhere to old covenant sabbath regulations so that others will understand .

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 09:21 PM
You might want to include in your future posts then that God no longer requires anyone to adhere to old covenant sabbath regulations so that others will understand .

Shalom Jiggy,

No, there is no reason for me to do that. That would be making an argument where there is none. If someone has a question, they can ask.

VerticalReality
Sep 20th 2007, 09:43 PM
So then just to clarify and answer the OP's question . . .

No, it is not a requirement for you to observe holy days and so on and so forth.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 09:57 PM
Shalom VR.

The OP "clarified" it and answered it already. I won't add to the OP's words since they answer and explain the questions the OP asked.


Thank you all... Especially Vickilynn... I've never looked from that perspective before... I think I found my answer in Exodus 20 ;)

1 Then God delivered all these commandments:

8 "Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
11 In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The reality of my job will make this difficult, as I often travel and have to fly home from teaching engagements Saturday morning... But I have long since learned to pray on planes :)

I take this within the context of Matthew 12 :

10 And behold, there was a man there who had a withered hand. They questioned him, "Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
11 He said to them, "Which one of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable a person is than a sheep. So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."

Jesus is not saying "Sabbath? What Sabbath? That's the old law"... Instead He says "... it is lawful to do good on the sabbath"... Jesus does not abolish the sabbath, He extends and clarifies the commandment given by His Father (it's not the law of Moses... Exodus 20:1 Then God delivered all these commandments)...

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 20th 2007, 10:04 PM
I think what Vickilynn is getting at, is that the Sabbath day observance is a free will choice. I'm not going to tell anyone to observe it, though i can't deny that i wish everyone would, cause i believe you're missing out.

I believe it is a covenant requirement as it was from the beginning:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


And don't bother turning over the argument that we're not children of Israel.... As we Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, i cannot fathom that we still somehow aren't children of Israel, after being stuck into the original tree..... sure, we are always going to be known as those who came from another fold, but we now are one fold, citizens of Israel...IMO anyway.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I don't expect you to agree, ever, though i'd certainly hope for it.
I find it ironic that since you don't believe in observing the Sabbath that you likewise also don't consider yourself part of Israel.... in that way you're likely speaking truth.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Peace to you my friends,
Tanja

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 10:05 PM
Yes, but the elevation of the Sabbath for Christians can become an idol too. Just as other 'works' can, like writing 'Lord' 'L_ord' and 'God' 'G_od' all the time or making sure that you pronounce all the originally Hebrew names in the NT in a Hebrew kind of way. This is all part of a ritualistically inclined observance of God's Law, which is not NT teaching. By the way, if we are to pronounce Jesus 'Yeshua' etc. -- and this is a rhetorical question --, should we not also pronounce 'Paul' 'Paulos', 'Peter' 'Petros' etc? After all, this is how these names were pronounced in Classical Greek days. Observing all these rules and regulations that are so predominant in Messianic circles is very much like straining out gnats (Mt 23:24). Christ's message is about loving Him and yearning for Him, His coming and His Kingdom, not about a list of required works. So let's not swallow the camel!

Very good post with some very good points Adam. Hope to see some of the others comment on it.

VerticalReality
Sep 20th 2007, 10:31 PM
I think what Vickilynn is getting at, is that the Sabbath day observance is a free will choice. I'm not going to tell anyone to observe it, though i can't deny that i wish everyone would, cause i believe you're missing out.

I believe it is a covenant requirement as it was from the beginning:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


And don't bother turning over the argument that we're not children of Israel.... As we Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, i cannot fathom that we still somehow aren't children of Israel, after being stuck into the original tree..... sure, we are always going to be known as those who came from another fold, but we now are one fold, citizens of Israel...IMO anyway.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I don't expect you to agree, ever, though i'd certainly hope for it.
I find it ironic that since you don't believe in observing the Sabbath that you likewise also don't consider yourself part of Israel.... in that way you're likely speaking truth.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Peace to you my friends,
Tanja

They sure didn't worry about that whole grafted in thing in Acts 15 when they didn't bother to tell those Gentiles to observe the Sabbath. If we're missing out, I would think those in Acts 15 would have wanted to tell us all what we're "missing out" on. They didn't, however, so it's really just a matter of one person choosing to do something that isn't really necessary. In addition, my Lord has given me every spiritual blessing already, so I'm not exactly sure what it is that you have that I don't that I'm "missing out" on.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 10:42 PM
Very good post with some very good points Adam. Hope to see some of the others comment on it.

Shalom Jiggy,

Actually, there were 3 comments and it was pointed out that some of Adam's comments were described as "snarky" and could be described in tougher words. At any rate, condemning comments and judging Believer's motives are wrong.

See posts #23 and #30 in this thread for responses.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 11:09 PM
I think what Vickilynn is getting at, is that the Sabbath day observance is a free will choice. I'm not going to tell anyone to observe it, though i can't deny that i wish everyone would, cause i believe you're missing out.

I believe it is a covenant requirement as it was from the beginning:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


And don't bother turning over the argument that we're not children of Israel.... As we Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, i cannot fathom that we still somehow aren't children of Israel, after being stuck into the original tree..... sure, we are always going to be known as those who came from another fold, but we now are one fold, citizens of Israel...IMO anyway.

Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I don't expect you to agree, ever, though i'd certainly hope for it.
I find it ironic that since you don't believe in observing the Sabbath that you likewise also don't consider yourself part of Israel.... in that way you're likely speaking truth.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Peace to you my friends,
Tanja

Shalom Tanja,

WOW girl! You RAWK!! What an excellent post!!! :hug:

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 11:15 PM
Shalom Jiggy,

Actually, there were 3 comments and it was pointed out that some of Adam's comments were described as "snarky" and could be described in tougher words. At any rate, condemning comments and judging Believer's motives are wrong.

See posts #23 and #30 in this thread for responses.
I saw those before I posted but thank you anyway.

jiggyfly
Sep 20th 2007, 11:27 PM
Shalom Jiggy,

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't change the context of what Paul is saying. He is NOT condemning G-d's holy days! In fact, Paul observed them. He would be a liar and a hypocrite to say what you are saying he said.

Nope, I believe he was referring to Gentiles going back to pagan worship and idol worship and imitating the Jews' practices, but not following G-d. If you read the previous verses, he says it clearly:

Verse 8:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul is not speaking of G-d's days.

What I see he is saying here is not to let judgmental Christians stop the Believer from worshiping G-d in the Sabbath or in other Messianic expressions. This is a support to the Believer who observes Sabbath because Paul is saying not to let people dissuade us from worshiping Jesus in this way, because we are worshiping the REAL substance - Jesus.


Just because you believe it doesn't make it true any more than me disagreeing with you doesn't change the context. I don't need to change the context of what Paul is saying because I agree with him already. If what you speculate he is saying is true then he must of been addressing jewish believers and not gentile believers in Colosse, Asia Minor:confused

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 11:34 PM
Just because you believe it doesn't make it true any more than me disagreeing with you doesn't change the context.

Shalom Jiggy,

Well duh.
And just because you believe your interpretation doesn't make it true either.

So, we're at an impasse. Nothing new. :lol:


I don't need to change the context of what Paul is saying because I agree with him already. If what you speculate he is saying is true then he must of been addressing jewish believers and not gentile believers in Asia minor:confusedNo, I believe that Paul was addressing Gentile believers who came OUT of pagan worship and were trying to go back. That's what I see and what I believe.

You see it differently obviously.

So, we each share our interpretations.

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 11:43 PM
Shalom,
Matthew Henry's Commentary



http://www.biblegateway.com/resource...seq=i.55 .4.2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=56&source=2&seq=i.55.4.2)
The happy change made in the Gentile believers.


The happy change whereby the Galatians were turned from idols to the living God, and through Christ had received the adoption of sons, was the effect of his free and rich grace; they were laid under the greater obligation to keep to the liberty wherewith he had made them free.



All our knowledge of God begins on his part; we know him because we are known of him. Though our religion forbids idolatry, yet many practice spiritual idolatry in their hearts. For what a man loves most, and
cares most for, that is his god: some have their riches for their god, some their pleasures, and some their lusts. And many ignorantly worship a god of their own making; a god made all of mercy and no justice. For they persuade themselves that there is mercy for them with God, though they repent not, but go on in their sins. It is possible for those who have made great professions of religion, to be afterwards drawn aside from purity and simplicity.



And the more mercy God has shown, in bringing any to know the gospel, and the liberties and privileges of it, the greater their sin and folly in suffering themselves to be deprived of them. Hence all who are members of the outward church should learn to fear and to suspect themselves. We must not be content because we have some good things in ourselves. Paul fears lest his labour is in vain, yet he still labours; and thus to do, whatever follows, is true wisdom and the fear of God. This every man must remember in his place and calling.

VerticalReality
Sep 20th 2007, 11:48 PM
To the OP,

Here's what the early church had to say with regards to the Gentile believers . . .



Acts 15:24-29
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.


You see? The Holy Spirit, along with the early church leaders, had every opportunity to inform and lay upon the Gentile believers the entire law, the Sabbath, the feasts or whatever other law out there, but they did not. Instead, they only instructed them to obey what is bolded above. In that they would do well. There's your answer.

Matt14
Sep 20th 2007, 11:52 PM
My question remains unanswered:

When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

Thx!

Vickilynn
Sep 20th 2007, 11:57 PM
To the OP,

Here's what the early church had to say with regards to the Gentile believers . . .



You see? The Holy Spirit, along with the early church leaders, had every opportunity to inform and lay upon the Gentile believers the entire law, the Sabbath, the feasts or whatever other law out there, but they did not. Instead, they only instructed them to obey what is bolded above. In that they would do well. There's your answer.

Shalom VR,

The OP has said he/she has already found the answer. :-)

We are not talking "laying the Law" on Gentiles. So no, that's not the answer to the OP's questions. Once again, the Sabbath is not about the Mosaic law.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 12:19 AM
Matt14,
sorry for overlooking your question.


When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

The answer may be suprisingly simple and eaqually displeasing to you:

Yeshua tells us in Matthew:
Mar 2:27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Therefore it was a requirement from the beginning of time when God had sanctified and made holy the Day we know as Sabbath.

Man was just one day old and God back then walked with man as we know from the Garden Eden that Adam could hear God walking in the Garden....

Why would God exclude Adam and Eve from this celebration of His Holy day and suddenly institute it so much later ?

We know God does not change, but is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

You have to remember God was dealing with a wayward people, His chosen people that had gone astray in bondage to Sin (Egypt) and therefore He needed to reenforce the Sabbath.... You cannot remember something that wasn't there before.... So it was before, and He called them to REMEMBER the Sabbath day.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 12:45 AM
Shalom VR,

The OP has said he/she has already found the answer. :-)

We are not talking "laying the Law" on Gentiles. So no, that's not the answer to the OP's questions. Once again, the Sabbath is not about the Mosaic law.

Actually no, the OP did not "find" the answer. They asked in the first post what day they "must" observe the Sabbath, and just what "must" they do to keep it holy. The true answer is that they "must" not do anything. It's not required. Now, if they choose to keep something that isn't necessary that is completely up to them, but they don't have to, and they shouldn't be led to believe that they will receive some greater benefit or level of relationship with the Lord if they do so.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 12:48 AM
Matt14,
sorry for overlooking your question.



The answer may be suprisingly simple and eaqually displeasing to you:

Yeshua tells us in Matthew:
Mar 2:27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Therefore it was a requirement from the beginning of time when God had sanctified and made holy the Day we know as Sabbath.

Man was just one day old and God back then walked with man as we know from the Garden Eden that Adam could hear God walking in the Garden....

Why would God exclude Adam and Eve from this celebration of His Holy day and suddenly institute it so much later ?

We know God does not change, but is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

You have to remember God was dealing with a wayward people, His chosen people that had gone astray in bondage to Sin (Egypt) and therefore He needed to reenforce the Sabbath.... You cannot remember something that wasn't there before.... So it was before, and He called them to REMEMBER the Sabbath day.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

So Adam, who was made in a state of perfection at creation, who had total and uninterrupted access to our Lord, who could speak with Him and converse with Him at any time, had to have a special day set aside so he could find rest in Him?

I don't get it.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 01:28 AM
Actually no, the OP did not "find" the answer.

Shalom VR,

That's funny! The OP who asked the question, said they found the answer and YOU disagree? So, you know the OP's mind, heart and relationship with Yeshua better than they do? :lol: I think not.

The OP said they found the answer and I for one, respect that.

If you don't, there's something wrong there.;)




Now, if they choose to keep something that isn't necessary Who said it isn't "necessary'? Necessary for what?
Is it required? No. Is it important, yes, I personally believe so. It has proved important in my walk. It's a blessing!


that is completely up to them, but they don't have to, and they shouldn't be led to believe that they will receive some greater benefit or level of relationship with the Lord if they do so.Ahhh, but you don't even take the OP at their word! THEY said they have come to the answer THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES.

As far as "being led", it's only because you don't agree!

And as far as a "greater benefit" or "level of relationship with the L-rd", you have described it exactly. YES, there is a wonderful benefit and deeper time of communion with the L-rd that does deepen the level of relationship.

Since you don't observe the Sabbath for these reasons, you aren't qualified to judge concerning the benefits, but as someone who has been honoring Messiah for many years in this way, I CAN testify that, yes, there is great benefit and a deepening relationship with the Master Yeshua.

I pray others will seek a deeper relationship with the L-rd. One way is by observing those times that G-d the Father has set down in His Word. It is AMAZING!

I've had people contact me about what it's done for their walk with the L-rd!!

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 01:36 AM
Shalom VR,

That's funny! The OP who asked the question, said they found the answer and YOU disagree? So, you know the OP's mind, heart and relationship with Yeshua better than they do? :lol: I think not.

The OP said they found the answer and I for one, respect that.

If you don't, there's something wrong there.;)





Who said it isn't "necessary'? Necessary for what?
Is it required? No. Is it important, yes, I personally believe so.



Ahhh, but you don't even take the OP at their word! THEY have come to the answer THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES.

As far as "being led", it's only because you don't agree!

And as far as a "greater benefit" or "level of relationship with the L-rd", you have described it exactly. YES, there is a wonderful benefit and deeper time of communion with the L-rd that does deepen the level of relationship.

Since you don't observe the Sabbath for these reasons, you aren't qualified to judge concerning the benefits, but as someone who has been honoring Messiah for many years in this way, I CAN testify that, yes, there is great benefit and a deepening relationship with the Master Yeshua.

I pray others will seek a deeper relationship with the L-rd. One way is by observing those times that G-d the Father has set down in His Word. It is AMAZING!

I've had people contact me about what it's done for their walk with the L-rd!!

Perhaps you can show us where Jesus or any of the disciples told us where we will gain something from observing the Sabbath. Why can we now gain stuff through observing the law? Why are your works so significant in the eyes of the Lord that you can gain something from Him?

What deeper relationship or greater benefit do you have by observing the Sabbath that I do not have by not observing it?

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 01:43 AM
Shalom VR,

That's funny! The OP who asked the question, said they found the answer and YOU disagree? So, you know the OP's mind, heart and relationship with Yeshua better than they do? :lol: I think not.

The OP said they found the answer and I for one, respect that.

If you don't, there's something wrong there.;)

I wasn't addressing the post in which the person said they found their answer. I was addressing the original post, as I clearly pointed out, in which they were asking about what they "must" do. I answered that question with the correct biblical answer that we "must" not do anything in regards to the law or the Sabbath, but we must simply do well in keeping what the early church leaders, along with the Holy Spirit, directed in Acts 15.

And just curious . . .

but why do you follow a statement like . . .


If you don't, there's something wrong there.

with a winking smiley like that's supposed to lighten your condescension? Do you know what "shalom" means? I don't observe it in your posts.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 01:48 AM
I don't get it.Agreed !!!


So Adam, who was made in a state of perfection at creation, who had total and uninterrupted access to our Lord, who could speak with Him and converse with Him at any time, had to have a special day set aside so he could find rest in Him?



Let's try explaining it this way: It's a holy Day, a day MADE for Man to rest from all works, heck even GOD rested..... God, who does not need any rest is resting. You know why God is not resting now/Yeshua wasn't resting then ? Because we cause Him to work cause of our sin. If the whole world observed that day and in the Spirit it was intended and obeyed God in Love on just that one day, God would NOT have to work.
Adam was flesh and Yeshua was flesh, they both slept. and both rested on the Sabbath.

And for that matter it shouldn't be so shocking that Adam celebrated the day, as it will be celebrated still even when the new kingdom has come:

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 01:52 AM
/quote]

Shalom VR,

You are going back to the argument that has already been done away with. PLease, go back and read the discussion concerning the Law. It's not about observing the Law. (Gee, I need a T-shirt that says that!).


[quote] Why are your works so significant in the eyes of the Lord that you can gain something from Him?

Who said anything about works? Sister, you know nothing of what you are speaking of. It's not about works. You're not listening to the conversation are you? :hmm:


What deeper relationship or greater benefit do you have by observing the Sabbath that I do not have by not observing it?

That depends on the person. You don't know my life and I don't know yours. I cannot speak for you. I CAN speak for MY walk and the greater benefit I have experienced and the deeper relationship. As I said, check out Shorashim sometime and you'll hear similar testimonies.

As far as Jesus and the disciples, Jesus says simply if we love Him, we will obey G-d's Word. Jesus, Paul and the disciples DID observe the Sabbath and that tells me a lot. If it's good enough for Jesus :pp

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 01:55 AM
Matt14,
sorry for overlooking your question.



The answer may be suprisingly simple and eaqually displeasing to you:

Yeshua tells us in Matthew:
Mar 2:27 And he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Therefore it was a requirement from the beginning of time when God had sanctified and made holy the Day we know as Sabbath.

I understand what you are implying, but Mark 2:27 does not say that man was required to observe the Sabbath from the beginning of creation. Instead, is appears that man began to be required to observe the Sabbath when the Law was given.

Can you show a place that shows or commands people before the Law of Moses to observe the Sabbath? Because this passage does not say that.


Man was just one day old and God back then walked with man as we know from the Garden Eden that Adam could hear God walking in the Garden....

Why would God exclude Adam and Eve from this celebration of His Holy day and suddenly institute it so much later ?

This is an assumption, which is something I'm not prepared to do with scripture. :)


We know God does not change, but is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

No, GOD does not change, but His covenant requirements have.


You have to remember God was dealing with a wayward people, His chosen people that had gone astray in bondage to Sin (Egypt) and therefore He needed to reenforce the Sabbath.... You cannot remember something that wasn't there before.... So it was before, and He called them to REMEMBER the Sabbath day.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

The fact that God rested on the seventh day has always been a fact. God was calling on the Israelites to remember and celebrate God's creative acts in reverence. Again, this does not show anyone before the Law observing the Sabbath in a religious sense.

Also, something you said struck a chord in me:


I think what Vickilynn is getting at, is that the Sabbath day observance is a free will choice. I'm not going to tell anyone to observe it, though i can't deny that i wish everyone would, cause i believe you're missing out.

I believe it is a covenant requirement as it was from the beginning:

Do you feel what you say above is a contradiction? How can something be a "covenant requirement," and yet be a "free will choice," ie optional?

God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 01:57 AM
with a winking smiley like that's supposed to lighten your condescension? Do you know what "shalom" means? I don't observe it in your posts.

Shalom,

Whooo hooo! Put dem claws away dear. Do YOU know what Shalom means? I do. And no, I wasn't being condescending, but I apologize if I gave you that impression. Goodness, sometimes things don't always come across in posts the way we mean them. It is helpful though to ask for clarification rather than take offense where none was intended. It was a lighthearted attempt at humor, which obviously failed. I apologize.

As far as my greeting, "Shalom", I'm sorry that it bothers you, and I'm sorry that you think you don't see it in my posts, but I can assure you, it's there. The real meaning of it and why I use it. Shalom.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 01:57 AM
Actually no, the OP did not "find" the answer. They asked in the first post what day they "must" observe the Sabbath, and just what "must" they do to keep it holy. The true answer is that they "must" not do anything. It's not required. Now, if they choose to keep something that isn't necessary that is completely up to them, but they don't have to, and they shouldn't be led to believe that they will receive some greater benefit or level of relationship with the Lord if they do so.
HUGE amen. That is the New Testament position.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 01:58 AM
Agreed !!!



Let's try explaining it this way: It's a holy Day, a day MADE for Man to rest from all works, heck even GOD rested..... God, who does not need any rest is resting. You know why God is not resting now/Yeshua wasn't resting then ? Because we cause Him to work cause of our sin. If the whole world observed that day and in the Spirit it was intended and obeyed God in Love on just that one day, God would NOT have to work.

So, then you agree that the goal is to not work any day instead of only one, correct? If it is our sin that causes God to work, then the ultimate goal is to defeat sin so we can rest all the time.


And for that matter it shouldn't be so shocking that Adam celebrated the day, as it will be celebrated still even when the new kingdom has come:

Where did God order Adam to observe the Sabbath?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 02:00 AM
HUGE amen. That is the New Testament position.

Shalom Matt,

You may agree with that position, but I disagree that it's the "New Testament" position. Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did Paul and the disciples. The NT does not ever remove the 7th day from being the Sabbath day that G-d set apart during Creation. THAT is the New Testament position, in my opinion.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:05 AM
Shalom VR,

You are going back to the argument that has already been done away with. PLease, go back and read the discussion concerning the Law. It's not about observing the Law. (Gee, I need a T-shirt that says that!).

I've read the discussion. Perhaps you should read my comment again for greater clarification.


Who said anything about works? Sister, you know nothing of what you are speaking of. It's not about works. You're not listening to the conversation are you? :hmm:

I'm not a sister. If you say that you gain something greater than anyone else, which is what JIMH implied, you are indeed saying it is about works.


That depends on the person. You don't know my life and I don't know yours. I cannot speak for you. I CAN speak for MY walk and the greater benefit I have experienced and the deeper relationship. As I said, check out Shorashim sometime and you'll hear similar testimonies.

No, it doesn't depend on the person. I have been given every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus, and it is the same for any other born again Christian regardless of what works they want to "observe". I don't have to observe some statute or law in order to "gain" anything with the Lord. What He has given has been given freely to all of us. That is the very definition of the term gift. It is all by His grace, and we don't gain anything from what we observe.


As far as Jesus and the disciples, Jesus says simply if we love Him, we will obey G-d's Word. Jesus, Paul and the disciples DID observe the Sabbath and that tells me a lot. If it's good enough for Jesus :pp

Can you provide evidence where Paul says he observed the Sabbath, or are you simply going to show the Scriptures where he went to preach the gospel in the synagogues on the Sabbath?

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 02:12 AM
Shalom Matt,

You may agree with that position, but I disagree that it's the "New Testament" position. Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did Paul and the disciples. The NT does not ever remove the 7th day from being the Sabbath day that G-d set apart during Creation. THAT is the New Testament position, in my opinion.

What Jesus did while He was walking the earth was before the passing away of the Law of Moses.

What Paul did after Christ's resurrection was about reaching other people, not about religious requirement. Remember Paul's "cleansing" in the temple? Had nothing to do with requirement, but rather it was all about not further angering the Jews, so that they could be reached for Christ.

One could also argue that Paul was observing traditions of the Jews. If you are not a Jew, you don't really have that tradition.

Anyway, if you can show one person--just one--who observed the Sabbath before the Law of Moses was given, I'll hush. But if you cannot show it, the scriptures do not support it.

In regard to the New Testament position, I know you believe that the Sabbath observance has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. But, since the Law is the first place it is commanded, I think it is safe to say that it IS part of the Law of Moses. With that in mind, what do you think this passage means?

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

in Christ,

Matt

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 02:24 AM
I understand what you are implying, but Mark 2:27 does not say that man was required to observe the Sabbath from the beginning of creation. Instead, is appears that man began to be required to observe the Sabbath when the Law was given.I look at the story of Cain and Able and their sacrifice, and i see a Sabbath ritual there.



No, GOD does not change, but His covenant requirements have.Show me where they changed ?


The fact that God rested on the seventh day has always been a fact. So why would Yeshua do differently, or why would he make the Law pass away, when scripture clearly says that not until heaven and earth pass away that the law would pass away. Did heaven and earth pass away at the cross ?


Do you feel what you say above is a contradiction? How can something be a "covenant requirement," and yet be a "free will choice," ie optional?No contradiction, God sets the requirements. And man has a free will choice to either do as God says or not to.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:31 AM
No contradiction, God sets the requyirements. And man has a free will choice to either do as God says or not to.

Shalom,
Tanja

Why would God make a law, or requirement, and then allow mankind to go without judgment for choosing not to observe it?

Myqyl
Sep 21st 2007, 02:32 AM
My question remains unanswered:

When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

Thx!

I will go through Genesis and the beginning of Exodus again to be sure, but the first place I found it was Exodus 20...

Actually, I take that back... just double checked and I believe Exodus 16:22-24 also applies to this... And I believe he makes the point very clear in the 29th verse.

Hope that answers your question.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 02:36 AM
Why would God make a law, or requirement, and then allow mankind to go without judgment for choosing not to observe it?If you're talking about the Sabbath day requirement, may i ask what makes you think people will not be judged for that, if they didn't keep it ?

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:37 AM
I will go through Genesis and the beginning of Exodus again to be sure, but the first place I found it was Exodus 20...

Actually, I take that back... just double checked and I believe Exodus 16:22-24 also applies to this... And I believe he makes the point very clear in the 29th verse.

Hope that answers your question.

It does answer it, and it also proves his point that God never ordered anyone to observe the Sabbath before the law of Moses.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:38 AM
If you're talking about the Sabbath day requirement, may i ask what makes you think people will not be judged for that, if they didn't keep it ?

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

There should be no future judgment. There should be judgment right now. If this requirement, or law, is not passed away then there should be judgment.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 02:41 AM
I will go through Genesis and the beginning of Exodus again to be sure, but the first place I found it was Exodus 20...

Actually, I take that back... just double checked and I believe Exodus 16:22-24 also applies to this... And I believe he makes the point very clear in the 29th verse.

Hope that answers your question.

And this is before the actual giving of the LAW at MT Sinai.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 02:42 AM
I look at the story of Cain and Able and their sacrifice, and i see a Sabbath ritual there.

Do you know what day it was they sacrificed? Do you see a Sabbath command? Or are you assuming something here?


Show me where they changed ?

Jesus changed it.

Heb 7:22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.


So why would Yeshua do differently, or why would he make the Law pass away, when scripture clearly says that not until heaven and earth pass away that the law would pass away. Did heaven and earth pass away at the cross ?

He said "until all things be fulfilled." He finished His work on the cross. The Law would in no wise pass away until His work was accomplished.


No contradiction, God sets the requirements. And man has a free will choice to either do as God says or not to.

Shalom,
Tanja

I'm glad we finally are seeing what you mean, in essence. You seem to believe the Sabbath observance is still required, and think others should be bound by it as well. This statement above makes that clear.

So, I ask you: Do you keep the rest of the Law?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 02:44 AM
There should be no future judgment. There should be judgment right now. If this requirement, or law, is not passed away then there should be judgment.

Could you expopund on that please ? What makes you think we are going to receive immediate judgment today ?

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:45 AM
Could you expopund on that please ? What makes you think we are going to receive immediate judgment today ?

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

God always gave judgment when His laws weren't kept.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 02:51 AM
I will go through Genesis and the beginning of Exodus again to be sure, but the first place I found it was Exodus 20...

Actually, I take that back... just double checked and I believe Exodus 16:22-24 also applies to this... And I believe he makes the point very clear in the 29th verse.

Hope that answers your question.

Ex. 16:22-30 is a great passage, because it shows that the people did not know about the Sabbath observance, and Moses was teaching them about it!


Exo 16:22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
Exo 16:23 then he said to them, "This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning."
Exo 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
Exo 16:25 Moses said, "Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
Exo 16:26 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none."
Exo 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.
Exo 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?
Exo 16:29 "See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

It seems obvious that the people had to be taught about the giving of the Sabbath, and how they could not gather on the next day. If it was observed since the creation, why did they not know about it?

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 02:53 AM
And this is before the actual giving of the LAW at MT Sinai.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja
But notice the people did not know about the Sabbath. Moses did, as a prophet. If the Sabbath had been observed as a requirement since creation, Moses would not have had to explain to them. :)

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 02:55 AM
God always gave judgment when His laws weren't kept.

Not immediately, He is longsuffering afterall....

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 02:56 AM
Not immediately, He is longsuffering afterall....

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Sometimes immediately . . . sometimes not. Yet, judgment still came. Why not now?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:15 AM
But notice the people did not know about the Sabbath. Moses did, as a prophet. If the Sabbath had been observed as a requirement since creation, Moses would not have had to explain to them.
Now i think you're assuming as much as you believe mt to be.

How often has God repeated Himself to make sure man would do what He said should be done ?
There are some examples of humans doing what He wanted on the first word... but many were not. Just cause Moses reiterated to the people what they were to do doesn't mean they didn't know.


They were extremely stiffnecked yanno?

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:16 AM
Now i think you're assuming as much as you believe mt to be.

How often has God repeated Himself to make sure man would do what He said should be done ?
There are some examples of humans doing what He wanted on the first word... but many were not. Just cause Moses reiterated to the people what they were to do doesn't mean they didn't know.


They were extremely stiffnecked yanno?

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

But again, that's a lot of assumption.

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 03:16 AM
The Sabbath in the OT was indeed a rest from work. Most of what we see there had a very practical application for the physical needs of man.

But a word search on rest, refreshing & regeneration, shows that the Sabbath pointed to a spiritual fulfillment that went beyond the completed work of creation - and that was the day of redemption - the promise to come.

You cannot separate the Sabbath from the sacrifices that were performed in that day. The priests even had double duty on that day (no rest for them!). The shadow as always provides the physical type for the spiritual reality (antitype). Pointing us to Christ's work on the cross and the rest we have in the redemption that He has provided. We have the times of refreshing from the Holy Spirit under the new covenant. We no longer need to rest physically from our worldly works which looked to God as our Creator; but instead we need to rest in the works of Christ, our Redeemer. Keeping in mind that God created the heavens and earth kept one humble before Him until that day arrived. Now we look to Him as our Savior because the new birth has come.

Now we can see that doing good on the Sabbath supercedes the need for physical rest. For the good works which the Spirit generates in us is what brings us the refreshment we need!

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:18 AM
The Sabbath in the OT was indeed a rest from work. Most of what we see there had a very practical application for the physical needs of man.

But a word search on rest, refreshing & regeneration, shows that the Sabbath pointed to a spiritual fulfillment that went beyond the completed work of creation - and that was the day of redemption - the promise to come.

You cannot separate the Sabbath from the sacrifices that were performed in that day. The priests even had double duty on that day (no rest for them!). The shadow as always provides the physical type for the spiritual reality (antitype). Pointing us to Christ's work on the cross and the rest we have in the redemption that He has provided. We have the times of refreshing from the Holy Spirit under the new covenant. We no longer need to rest physically from our worldly works which looked to God as our Creator; but instead we need to rest in the works of Christ, our Redeemer. Keeping in mind that God created the heavens and earth kept one humble before Him until that day arrived. Now we look to Him as our Savior because the new birth has come.

Now we can see that doing good on the Sabbath supercedes the need for physical rest. For the good works which the Spirit generates in us is what brings us the refreshment we need!

Nice addition, Mo.

Toolman
Sep 21st 2007, 03:20 AM
Shalom Toolman,

Oh, that's ridiculous. I never said anything of the sort and you know it.

Vicki,

I do not "know it" and I was not being ridiculous. I was simply observing that you were doing the same thing you asked other people not to do, which was label and judge others for their convictions. If "religious Christians" isn't a label and judgement what is it?


You turned a positive statement into a negative condemnation, which I NEVER said or implied. You can read whatever you want into my words Toolman, but you said it, I didn't.

Actually I just quoted you, I didn't say it.


I said that Myqyl got what I was saying and why I said it. You read your own negative interpretation into that, but you are wrong.

Show me where I was wrong. What does "religious Christian" mean? You tell me.


I am not judging anyone, but y'all are sure having a field day judging. :D

Show me one place in this thread where I have judged you for your conviction.

Please don't lump me into some "ya'll" group. If you can show me my error I'll be more than happy to repent and make it right.


I've never said anyone MUST. I only said I have the FREEDOM according to the Scriptures to observe as I am led without repeated condemnation for doing so.

I have never stated any different and agree with you. I have not stated any disagreement with your position there.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:26 AM
Sometimes immediately . . . sometimes not. Yet, judgment still came. Why not now?

Well as you know, there is a judgment day coming......


Shalom,
Tanja

Toolman
Sep 21st 2007, 03:27 AM
And as far as a "greater benefit" or "level of relationship with the L-rd", you have described it exactly. YES, there is a wonderful benefit and deeper time of communion with the L-rd that does deepen the level of relationship.

Since you don't observe the Sabbath for these reasons, you aren't qualified to judge concerning the benefits, but as someone who has been honoring Messiah for many years in this way, I CAN testify that, yes, there is great benefit and a deepening relationship with the Master Yeshua.

I pray others will seek a deeper relationship with the L-rd. One way is by observing those times that G-d the Father has set down in His Word. It is AMAZING!

I've had people contact me about what it's done for their walk with the L-rd!!

This is where you have crossed the line on what I can agree with.

If you state that your conviction is to keep the sabbath and it is not binding on others, I can agree with that conviction.

When you go beyond that and state that there is spiritual benefit in it that others are missing out on then I wholeheatedly disagree.

There is no spiritual benefit that the sabbath observer has over the non-sabbath observer.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:27 AM
Well as you know, there is a judgment day coming......


Shalom,
Tanja

But why not right now like in the Old Testament?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:31 AM
Anyway, i'm out on this thread for the night. It's too repetetive ...

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:33 AM
Anyway, i'm out on this thread for the night. It's too repetetive ...

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Why are you dodging the question?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 05:09 AM
I'm not dodging your question..... i simply was having some other things going on that needed my attention, thankyouverymuch.


But why not right now like in the Old Testament?

There is a final judgment day for all that ever lived.

I don't know why you are so bent on this particular discussion.

God judges the heart of men continuously... and someday He may lose his patience with people.....

I am not God to tell you why He hasn't had enough yet.

Do you want Him to judge you now for not observing the Sabbath ?

Or what is it that makes you so bent on wondering why he isn't doing it now ?

Shalom
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 05:18 AM
Anyway, while i may appear to be signed in, i am going to bed. Good night.

Tanja

Naphal
Sep 21st 2007, 06:55 AM
There is no spiritual benefit that the sabbath observer has over the non-sabbath observer.

Correction: No benefit over keeping the Saturday Sabbath. All Christians keep the New Testament Sabbath just by being in Christ. Otherwise good work. :)

Firstfruits
Sep 21st 2007, 08:14 AM
I think what Vickilynn is getting at, is that the Sabbath day observance is a free will choice. I'm not going to tell anyone to observe it, though i can't deny that i wish everyone would, cause i believe you're missing out.

I believe it is a covenant requirement as it was from the beginning:

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


Tanja

Would you agree that a "requirement" to do something, does not give the choice of freewill?

kejonn
Sep 21st 2007, 09:59 AM
Shalom Matt,

You may agree with that position, but I disagree that it's the "New Testament" position. Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did Paul and the disciples. The NT does not ever remove the 7th day from being the Sabbath day that G-d set apart during Creation. THAT is the New Testament position, in my opinion.

Just an observation of the obvious, but were not both raised as Jews? I don't see a single instance where Paul encouraged Gentiles Christians to observe the Sabbath.

I personally have no issue with the Sabbath and applaud those who observe it if they do so to please God, not to point to themselves as more spiritual than other Christians because of it. I say that because I've seen too many instances of this very thing happening.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 12:07 PM
There is a final judgment day for all that ever lived.

I don't know why you are so bent on this particular discussion.

God judges the heart of men continuously... and someday He may lose his patience with people.....

I am not God to tell you why He hasn't had enough yet.

Do you want Him to judge you now for not observing the Sabbath ?

Or what is it that makes you so bent on wondering why he isn't doing it now ?

God never put off His righteous judgment to a "final judgment day" in the Old Testament. Why now?

That's also not to even mention that God's judgment in the Old Testament served as notice to folks that they needed to repent and ask forgiveness for sin and go back to observing the law He had given them. Why wouldn't God want to get us back on track now?

jiggyfly
Sep 21st 2007, 12:15 PM
The Sabbath in the OT was indeed a rest from work. Most of what we see there had a very practical application for the physical needs of man.

But a word search on rest, refreshing & regeneration, shows that the Sabbath pointed to a spiritual fulfillment that went beyond the completed work of creation - and that was the day of redemption - the promise to come.

You cannot separate the Sabbath from the sacrifices that were performed in that day. The priests even had double duty on that day (no rest for them!). The shadow as always provides the physical type for the spiritual reality (antitype). Pointing us to Christ's work on the cross and the rest we have in the redemption that He has provided. We have the times of refreshing from the Holy Spirit under the new covenant. We no longer need to rest physically from our worldly works which looked to God as our Creator; but instead we need to rest in the works of Christ, our Redeemer. Keeping in mind that God created the heavens and earth kept one humble before Him until that day arrived. Now we look to Him as our Savior because the new birth has come.

Now we can see that doing good on the Sabbath supercedes the need for physical rest. For the good works which the Spirit generates in us is what brings us the refreshment we need!

Very good post Mograce2U, I would like to expound on something that you mentioned. You mentioned that the priests had double duties on the sabbath, meaning that they were required to work on the sabbath. This is a good example of why we can't just take old covenant practices and requirements and implement them into the new covenant. How can a believer practice keeping the sabbath by resting when in the new covenant we are all priests? You can not participate in both old and new. The requirements of the old covenant are not going to work well in light of the new covenant realities. When we try and make it work we find we must either adapt or change the requirement of the old covenant or ignore the realities of who we are in the new covenant.

Tithing is another example of this same problem. In the old covenant the tithe was to be gathered and given to the priest to be carried into the temple (God's house)so there would be provision for widows, orphans and foreigners. In the new covenant, we are not only the priests but we are the temple and house of God. So as we can see, engaging in old covenant requirements like keeping with sabbath, feasts, holy days and tithing while participating in the new and better covenant, compromise must be employed on one covenant or the other. I know that many will disagree and some may be offended but this is the undeniable truth, mixing the two covenants is impossible without compromise.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:10 PM
Would you agree that a "requirement" to do something, does not give the choice of freewill?No, i don't agree with that at all. Scriptures tell us that we either are enslaved to the bondage of sin, or that we are in bondage to God....
So we chose, and we chose to either do what He says or we don't. We either fullfil His requirement, or we don't.

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



God never put off His righteous judgment to a "final judgment day" in the Old Testament. Why now?

That's also not to even mention that God's judgment in the Old Testament served as notice to folks that they needed to repent and ask forgiveness for sin and go back to observing the law He had given them. Why wouldn't God want to get us back on track now?

Scripture tells us :"repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
That's why He wants us to get back on track... Matter of fact your assertion that God is only just now trying to get man back on track is false, God has been asking man to straighten up since the fall of man.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And with that i'm going to leave this thread, because it is not edifying, it's argumentative and repetitive.
And that is due to the fact that you believe you have got the correct understanding of scripture. :rolleyes:

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:27 PM
No, i don't agree with that at all. Scriptures tell us that we either are enslaved to the bondage of sin, or that we are in bondage to God....
So we chose, and we chose to either do what He says or we don't. We either fullfil His requirement, or we don't.

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.




Scripture tells us :"repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
That's why He wants us to get back on track... Matter of fact your assertion that God is only just now trying to get man back on track is false, God has been asking man to straighten up since the fall of man.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And with that i'm going to leave this thread, because it is not edifying, it's argumentative and repetitive.
And that is due to the fact that you believe you have got the correct understanding of scripture. :rolleyes:

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

And you still do not answer the question. When Saul broke the laws of God, there was judgment that followed. When David broke the laws of God, there was judgment that followed. The same can be said for every king of Israel or Judea that ever broke the laws of God. Breaking those laws always brought judgment.

Yet still, you refuse to answer why there is no judgment now. Why?

Adam
Sep 21st 2007, 03:28 PM
And with that i'm going to leave this thread, because it is not edifying, it's argumentative and repetitive.
And that is due to the fact that you believe you have got the correct understanding of scripture. :rolleyes:

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

That's quite a self-satisfactory statement. Logically, it follows from these contentions that if the non-messianic people here agreed with what the messianic people believe to be the correct understanding of scripture, this thread would be less argumentative (probably true, as everyone would have one and the same opinion), this thread would be less repetitive (not true, since the exposition of various disagreeing views would be less repetitive than repeating the messianic message again and again) and, with that, this thread would be more edifiying. Basically, the more people agree with the messianic interpretation of Scripture, the more edifying it would be.

Consider how the following statement directed at the messianic crowd would sound:

And with that i'm going to leave this thread, because it is not edifying, it's argumentative and repetitive.
And that is due to the fact that you believe you have got the correct understanding of scripture. :rolleyes:

Get my point?

There is, per se, absolutely nothing non-edifiying about disagreeing with the messianic teaching. I would even go so far as to say that it is important to disagree with such a teaching, and that the exposition of a non-messianic view is in and by itself an edifying undertaking (if it is done with the right kind of heart).

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:34 PM
VR,

recall ananias and sephiras? They were judged on the spot by the apostles, and when called out on it, they died, immediately.

Since the apostel's death i have not heard of anything like this ever after. You may have to accept that today we don't see this kind of thing. But i do know that God disciplines me all the time. Something will happen, and i know His love has pursued me yet again, and meted out judgment in a disciplinary action.

This is personal experience, and this again may not satisfy you.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:36 PM
LOL Adam, so you are saying it is good to expose our "false" teaching? That it is edyfying ?

Oh well i digress, and good bye.. i have better things to do than respond to this.

Shalom,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 03:37 PM
VR,

recall ananias and sephiras? They were judged on the spot by the apostles, and when called out on it, they died, immediately.

Since the apostel's death i have not heard of anything like this ever after. You may have to accept that today we don't see this kind of thing. But i do know that God disciplines me all the time. Something will happen, and i know His love has pursued me yet again, and meted out judgment in a disciplinary action.

This is personal experience, and this again may not satisfy you.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

So, you're saying everytime you sin God disciplines you? He punishes you and brings judgment upon you every time you sin?

Mograce2U
Sep 21st 2007, 03:42 PM
Very good post Mograce2U, I would like to expound on something that you mentioned. You mentioned that the priests had double duties on the sabbath, meaning that they were required to work on the sabbath. This is a good example of why we can't just take old covenant practices and requirements and implement them into the new covenant. How can a believer practice keeping the sabbath by resting when in the new covenant we are all priests? You can not participate in both old and new. The requirements of the old covenant are not going to work well in light of the new covenant realities. When we try and make it work we find we must either adapt or change the requirement of the old covenant or ignore the realities of who we are in the new covenant.

Tithing is another example of this same problem. In the old covenant the tithe was to be gathered and given to the priest to be carried into the temple (God's house)so there would be provision for widows, orphans and foreigners. In the new covenant, we are not only the priests but we are the temple and house of God. So as we can see, engaging in old covenant requirements like keeping with sabbath, feasts, holy days and tithing while participating in the new and better covenant, compromise must be employed on one covenant or the other. I know that many will disagree and some may be offended but this is the undeniable truth, mixing the two covenants is impossible without compromise.Not only that but what the tithe pictured is that WE are the tithe Jesus offers to the Father!

matthew94
Sep 21st 2007, 03:49 PM
Adam made a great point (and I don't know how it could have been interpreted as heresy hunting!). His point, it seemed to me, was that it's far too common for people to consider any viewpoint that isn't their own as 'non-edifying' since it can be 'unsettling' to their biblical understanding. In contrast, hearing other views on secondary issues can and should be amazingly edifying!

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 03:58 PM
That is at His perogative to punish me when He sees fit, yes He has punished me in the past, and He will do so again when needed....
He rebukes me as needed, but mostly He lovingly guides me into all truth through the Ruach.
He shows me my faults, and i work on them.

You forget VR that God is a gracious God, a God of Love who tends His sheep.
He doesn't come down on me hard all the time. But He does disciple me.

SHalom my friend,
Tanja

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 04:09 PM
That is at His perogative to punish me when He sees fit, yes He has punished me in the past, and He will do so again when needed....
He rebukes me as needed, but mostly He lovingly guides me into all truth through the Ruach.
He shows me my faults, and i work on them.

You forget VR that God is a gracious God, a God of Love who tends His sheep.
He doesn't come down on me hard all the time. But He does disciple me.

SHalom my friend,
Tanja

When Saul broke a law he received judgment. When David broke a law he received judgment. When Solomon broke a law he received judgment. Not just sometimes. Not just every now and then. When you break a law you will receive judgment. Why do you only sometimes receive what you call judgment?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 04:16 PM
I've read the discussion. Perhaps you should read my comment again for greater clarification.

Shalom VR,

I have read your posts. And I am saying you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not about the Law. It can't be made any clearer than that. If you continue to argue about the Law, when this issue has nothing to do with the Law, there is nothing more to discuss. It's not about the Law. :D




I'm not a sister.
LOL! OK. If you say so.


If you say that you gain something greater than anyone else, which is what JIMH implied, you are indeed saying it is about works.

No, not at all. Do you ever hear people say that fasting and praying brought them closer to G-d and a deeper relationship? I have. It's not a "works-based" experience, but whenever one commits themselves to drawing closer to G-d, He grants it and there are blessings.

Now, that is not to say that everyone HAS to fast and pray to get closer to G-d. BUT, if someone says they did and you say that's a lie, you are wrong.

Same as you saying that I am not being blessed in my relationship with G-d by observing the Sabbath and other days unto Him. You cannot comment on my relationship and what brings me closer and deeper in my walk. I'm testifying of my experience. You cannot argue with that, there is no Biblilca foundation. It's just your opinion.



No, it doesn't depend on the person.
Of course it does. Not every person is the same in their walk. Think about what you are saying. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Are you saying that everyone has to do the same things in their walk, that we are not all individuals and different? If so, I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. G-d meets us where we are, depending on the person.


I have been given every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus, and it is the same for any other born again Christian regardless of what works they want to "observe".

OK, so you have reached perfection in your walk with Jesus. You cannot grow? You cannot get closer? You cannot mature? You cannot learn things? You cannot accept new blessings from Him? You no longer need to be in His presence? This is what you're saying!


I have been given every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus,
If that were true, you'd be in Heaven. In THIS LIFE there is more blessings to come, daily, as we walk closer and deeper with Jesus. You have not received EVERY blessing there is.



I don't have to observe some statute or law in order to "gain" anything with the Lord.

Good for you! And neither do I. This is a Straw Man argument as has been established previously.


What He has given has been given freely to all of us. That is the very definition of the term gift. It is all by His grace, and we don't gain anything from what we observe.

Not true. We gain a LOT by what we do IN and FOR the L-rd. If we read our Bible, we gain. If we empty ourselves in praise and adoration, we gain. If we serve others in His name, we gain. All these are things we DO and in all these things we are blessed by G-d.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 04:18 PM
My question remains unanswered:

When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

Thx!

Shalom,

I chose not to answer it because the issue of being under the Law is a Straw Man argument. That is not why it is being celebrated and so the "requirement" has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 04:21 PM
I have read your posts. And I am saying you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not about the Law. It can't be made any clearer than that. If you continue to argue about the Law, when this issue has nothing to do with the Law, there is nothing more to discuss. It's not about the Law. :D

If you cannot show pre-Mosaic commands or examples for observing the Law, it is indeed about observing the Law.

JIMH has posted that Sabbath observance is a requirement, though she says we "have freewill" whether or not to observe it. What I see in this statement is a declaration that the Sabbath observance (which is outlined in the LAW, nowhere else) is mandatory to be pleasing to God.

What do you say? Definitively, please. :)

God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 04:25 PM
This is where you have crossed the line on what I can agree with.

Shalom,

That's too bad. And we were off to such a good start! :lol:


If you state that your conviction is to keep the sabbath and it is not binding on others, I can agree with that conviction. That's EXACTLY what I have stated, but somehow, y'all keep throwing it up as an accusation. Wonder why y'all are hearing what I'm saying?


When you go beyond that and state that there is spiritual benefit in it that others are missing out on then I wholeheatedly disagree.I never said others are "missing out on" anything. I said there is blessing and great spiritual benefit from observing the Sabbath unto Yeshua and that is the truth. I posted a larger post about this to VR, shall I repost it here?


There is no spiritual benefit that the sabbath observer has over the non-sabbath observer.Of course there is! And as someone who celebrates the Sabbath, I can attest to the great spiritual blessing. If someone has NOT celebrated the Sabbath in the right heart, they are not qualified to judge whether there is blessing in it or not.

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 21st 2007, 04:29 PM
Why do you only sometimes receive what you call judgment?Because when i repent God no longer has a need for judgment. "and their sins i will remember no more"
This can be seen throughout scriptures that people who repent are forgiven and no longer have to fear punishment.

Is this really such a mystery ?

Maybe judgment is really the wrong word.....

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 04:41 PM
If you cannot show pre-Mosaic commands or examples for observing the Law, it is indeed about observing the Law.

Shalom,
I have repeatedly and will do so no longer because it is a Straw Man argument.

Genesis 2 establishes the Sabbath as a holy day of rest. Read it for yourself.

Since I have NEVER said it is a requirement, your repeated Straw Man about the Law is not something I will reply to any more. You either get it or you don't, but continuing to argue a point that is NOT part of this discussion is not getting anyone any place.


JIMH has posted that Sabbath observance is a requirement, though she says we "have freewill" whether or not to observe it.

My precious sister and I agree on some things.
I am not Tanja and she is not me.
I will not speak for her.



What do you say? Definitively, please. :)
I HAVE said it definitively and repeatedly.
Celebrating, observing the Sabbath is not a requirement, it is a choice. BUT, it IS G-d's Word and as such has merit to consider. ALSO, as I have experienced, celebrating the Sabbath as unto Yeshua, brings wonderful blessings!

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 04:57 PM
Shalom,
I have repeatedly and will do so no longer because it is a Straw Man argument.

Genesis 2 establishes the Sabbath as a holy day of rest. Read it for yourself.

Since I have NEVER said it is a requirement, your repeated Straw Man about the Law is not something I will reply to any more. You either get it or you don't, but continuing to argue a point that is NOT part of this discussion is not getting anyone any place.



My precious sister and I agree on some things.
I am not Tanja and she is not me.
I will not speak for her.



I HAVE said it definitively and repeatedly.
Celebrating, observing the Sabbath is not a requirement, it is a choice. BUT, it IS G-d's Word and as such has merit to consider. ALSO, as I have experienced, celebrating the Sabbath as unto Yeshua, brings wonderful blessings!

Genesis 2 does not command Sabbath observance upon Adam or anyone else.

Sabbath regulations were not given until Moses.

Therefore, Sabbath regulations are part of the Law of Moses.

I don't see how else to look at it, unless someone can show the Patriarchs or other pre-Mosaic peoples being commanded to observe the Sabbath.

I respect your desire to honor God, but why not honor Him according to the New Covenant?

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:09 PM
Shalom VR,

I have read your posts. And I am saying you are barking up the wrong tree. It's not about the Law. It can't be made any clearer than that. If you continue to argue about the Law, when this issue has nothing to do with the Law, there is nothing more to discuss. It's not about the Law. :D

You haven't made your case. Where did God command anyone to observe the Sabbath before the law?


LOL! OK. If you say so.

I believe I would know if I were female or not, so yeah, I say so.


No, not at all. Do you ever hear people say that fasting and praying brought them closer to G-d and a deeper relationship? I have. It's not a "works-based" experience, but whenever one commits themselves to drawing closer to G-d, He grants it and there are blessings.

Fasting doesn't get one closer to God. It gets their own flesh out of the way so they can tap into what they already have. Again, your works aren't anything special and they don't earn you anything with the Lord.


Now, that is not to say that everyone HAS to fast and pray to get closer to G-d. BUT, if someone says they did and you say that's a lie, you are wrong.

Not according to the Word. Fasting and all that only silences your own flesh. It doesn't earn brownie points or allow you to gain something someone else doesn't have.


Same as you saying that I am not being blessed in my relationship with G-d by observing the Sabbath and other days unto Him. You cannot comment on my relationship and what brings me closer and deeper in my walk. I'm testifying of my experience. You cannot argue with that, there is no Biblilca foundation. It's just your opinion.

What blessing are you getting that you didn't already have at salvation? The Word says that we have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. Not just some blessings. Not just most blessings. EVERY spiritual blessing.


Of course it does. Not every person is the same in their walk. Think about what you are saying. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Are you saying that everyone has to do the same things in their walk, that we are not all individuals and different? If so, I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. G-d meets us where we are, depending on the person.

No, I'm saying that what we choose to do does not allow us to "gain" anything from God. We already have everything we are going to be given from God on this earth. It's now up to us to tap into it. When you fast, you aren't earning or gaining anything from God. You are simply denying your flesh so you can tap into the spirit.


OK, so you have reached perfection in your walk with Jesus. You cannot grow? You cannot get closer? You cannot mature? You cannot learn things? You cannot accept new blessings from Him? You no longer need to be in His presence? This is what you're saying!

I am indeed perfect in spirit. It is the imperfect that must grow, and that doesn't come because I gain stuff from God. God has already done His part. He picked me up out of death and made me alive again in the spirit. He has given me every spiritual blessing, and it is my job now to walk in that by faith. Whatever revelation I get is because I put this flesh to bed and tap into those spiritual blessings that have already been provided.


If that were true, you'd be in Heaven. In THIS LIFE there is more blessings to come, daily, as we walk closer and deeper with Jesus. You have not received EVERY blessing there is.

Sure I have. Just read the Word. It will tell you. We have every spiritual blessing in Christ Jesus. That is a reality right now. If you aren't walking in that it is because you are hindering it in some form or fashion, or you just don't walk in a faithful knowledge of it.


Good for you! And neither do I. This is a Straw Man argument as has been established previously.

No. No straw man. If you think you are gaining something by observing laws, you are mistaken.


Not true. We gain a LOT by what we do IN and FOR the L-rd. If we read our Bible, we gain. If we empty ourselves in praise and adoration, we gain. If we serve others in His name, we gain. All these are things we DO and in all these things we are blessed by G-d.

If we read our bible we get revelation because we are allowing what we have already been given in the spirit to manifest itself. Again, God has already given every spiritual blessing. He's done His part, and there's nothing more for Him to give. It's now our responsibility to walk in the spirit so we can tap into what we have been given.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:11 PM
Of course there is! And as someone who celebrates the Sabbath, I can attest to the great spiritual blessing. If someone has NOT celebrated the Sabbath in the right heart, they are not qualified to judge whether there is blessing in it or not.

Then you should be able to tell us all what the great spiritual blessing is that we do not have.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:13 PM
Because when i repent God no longer has a need for judgment. "and their sins i will remember no more"
This can be seen throughout scriptures that people who repent are forgiven and no longer have to fear punishment.

Is this really such a mystery ?

Maybe judgment is really the wrong word.....

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Did David repent? Why did he still receive punishment? There are countless examples of people repenting but still having to accept righteous judgment for the transgressions they committed.

Let me ask you something else . . .

What good did it do for Jesus to atone for our transgressions if we already had that before?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:16 PM
Genesis 2 does not command Sabbath observance upon Adam or anyone else.

Shalom Matt,

You're just not "getting it." It is not a command. If you don't understand that, we have nothing else to discuss.

Shalom.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:20 PM
Then you should be able to tell us all what the great spiritual blessing is that we do not have.

Shalom VR,

I have plenty! As I said, it is a spiritual blessing to celebrate the Sabbath. I grow in the L-rd. I learn more about Him, I grow closer to Him, I enjoy being in His presence. I grow in my knowledge of Him through learning about G-d the Father's plan and how intricately He wove everything together to speak of and glorify Yeshua! It is an awesome time.

Our family comes together as one. We often have guests and other families. We open the Scriptures and read how the Father instituted the Sabbath and how Jesus embodies it. We sing, we pray, we feast and we glorify and honor Yeshua!! It's wonderful!!!!!!!!!!

Our guests keep asking for re-invites! The last family we had over, the hubby said he was "blown away" at how much of a spiritual blessing they experienced by celebrating the Sabbath and how much more he understood the Word.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:25 PM
Shalom VR,

I have plenty! As I said, it is a spiritual blessing to celebrate the Sabbath. I grow in the L-rd. I learn more about Him, I grow closer to Him, I enjoy being in His presence. I grow in my knowledge of Him through learning about G-d the Father's plan and how intricately He wove everything together to speak of and glorify Yeshua! It is an awesome time.

Our family comes together as one. We often have guests and other families. We open the Scriptures and read how the Father instituted the Sabbath and how Jesus embodies it. We sing, we pray, we feast and we glorify and honor Yeshua!! It's wonderful!!!!!!!!!!

Our guests keep asking for re-invites! The last family we had over, the hubby said he was "blown away" at how much of a spiritual blessing they experienced by celebrating the Sabbath and how much more he understood the Word.

I have all that on several occasions throughout the week. I host bible study at my house every Thursday. I meet with others from my church several times a week for prayer and worship. We all gather on Sunday for corporate worship as a body. We have ministry teams on Friday evenings where we have the glorious privilege to go out and preach that gospel and show others the love of Christ. All of our families get together on a very regular basis and have a wonderful time of fellowship in the Lord.

So again, what spiritual blessing do you have that I or others do not?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:26 PM
I respect your desire to honor God, but why not honor Him according to the New Covenant?

Shalom Matt,

I excluded your other questions about the "LAW", since I have shown they are not related to this topic.

This question disturbs me. You say you "respect" my desire to honor G-d and then you imply that I'm doing it wrong? :hmm: So, you have the right to tell me how to honor G-d? I think not.

And, FYI, I AM honoring G-d according to the New Covenant, since all I do is to honor Yeshua the Messiah. BUT Brother, I don't have to answer concerning my honor of G-d by celebrating Sabbath and other days, any more than you have to answer for why you do NOT celebrate the Biblical feasts. It is between you and G-d. You have no right to judge me and I have no right to judge you. It goes both ways.

We'll leave it at that.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:26 PM
I have all that on several occasions throughout the week.

Shalom,

Good for you!!

So, what is your problem with me having it on the Sabbath?

Why do you judge what you have no right to?

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:29 PM
Shalom Matt,

I excluded your other questions about the "LAW", since I have shown they are not related to this topic.

This question disturbs me. You say you "respect" my desire to honor G-d and then you imply that I'm doing it wrong? :hmm: So, you have the right to tell me how to honor G-d? I think not.

And, FYI, I AM honoring G-d according to the New Covenant, since all I do is to honor Yeshua the Messiah. BUT Brother, I don't have to answer concerning my honor of G-d by celebrating Sabbath and other days, any more than you have to answer for why you do NOT celebrate the Biblical feasts. It is between you and G-d. You have no right to judge me and I have no right to judge you. It goes both ways.

We'll leave it at that.

Quite honestly, Vicki, I think the reason you are being frustrated right now is because you are replying to posts that are directed to other folks, and you are replying to them in agreement with JIMH. You may not view the Sabbath as a requirement, but JIMH has made it clear that she does view it as a requirement. Therefore, if you reply to others in disagreement who are in turn addressing JIMH's thoughts, you leave the impression that you agree with JIMH that observing the Sabbath is a requirement.

If you don't believe it is a requirement then there really is nothing to discuss further with you. It is JIMH's assertion that the Sabbath is a requirement that I'm particularly in disagreement with.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:31 PM
Shalom,

Good for you!!

So, what is your problem with me having it on the Sabbath?

Why do you judge what you have no right to?

I have no problem with you doing what you do at all, as I have said repeatedly. I guess I'll say it again for good measure. What we are addressing here is . . .

1) Whether or not it is a requirement

and

2) Whether or not one "gains" anything from it

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:34 PM
Quite honestly, Vicki, I think the reason you are being frustrated right now....

Shalom VR,

I will stop you RIGHT here.
You have made a false assumption and run with it.

First off, I responded to Matt's post as I believe they are directed to me. He's quoting MY post and asking me questions about it.

Secondly, I am not frustrated in the least. Sorry to disappoint you. But, I am quite comfortable as I know I walk in the leading of the L-rd and have no problems with what I do at all. I am not at all frustrated.

BTW, Vicki is not my name. If you want to shorten my name, please call me "VL". Thanks.

If you have nothing else to discuss with me, then we'll say Shalom and see ya later. As long as you address posts to me, I'll reply.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 05:37 PM
I have no problem with you doing what you do at all, as I have said repeatedly. I guess I'll say it again for good measure. What we are addressing here is . . .

1) Whether or not it is a requirement

Shalom,

No, I do not believe it is a "requirement", however, I believe it is good and right and beneficial for the Believer in Messiah.


and

2) Whether or not one "gains" anything from it

I have posted repeatedly, the answer is YES. Each person must answer that for themselves, but as I have posted, in my experience, my family's experience and those who share Sabbath with us, it is a GREAT spiritual learning time and blessing, resulting in growing in the L-rd and deepening of our walks.

Whether YOU would gain from it, well, that's up to you. It's all about the heart motive (which is why it's not about the Law.)

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 05:48 PM
I have posted repeatedly, the answer is YES.

And you have posted repeatedly something that isn't biblically correct. The Word says that we have every spiritual blessing already. Are you denying what the Word says? How can you gain from God what He has already given you?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 06:24 PM
And you have posted repeatedly something that isn't biblically correct. The Word says that we have every spiritual blessing already. Are you denying what the Word says? How can you gain from God what He has already given you?

Shalom VR,

What I have posted is Biblically correct. You are simply misunderstanding what is being said.

You cannot tell me that things you do in this life bring you spiritual blessings and there are no more blessings to be had in this life. That is a false statement. Your argument is based on a wrong understanding of what is being said.

Yes, I receive blessings (not Brownie Points) for doing whatever I do for the glory of G-d. And so do you and so does everyone else.

I hope you see what I'm saying. It's not what you're saying.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 06:32 PM
Shalom VR,

What I have posted is Biblically correct. You are simply misunderstanding what is being said.

You cannot tell me that things you do in this life bring you spiritual blessings and there are no more blessings to be had in this life. That is a false statement. Your argument is based on a wrong understanding of what is being said.

Yes, I receive blessings (not Brownie Points) for doing whatever I do for the glory of G-d. And so do you and so does everyone else.

I hope you see what I'm saying. It's not what you're saying.

Nope. According to the Word you have already been given every spiritual blessing. You do not receive anymore of them from God. He has already given them to you. It seems you have a misunderstanding of what is actually happening when you walk in the spirit.



Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


As the Word says, by His grace we have already been given every spiritual blessing.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 06:48 PM
Shalom Matt,

You're just not "getting it." It is not a command. If you don't understand that, we have nothing else to discuss.

Shalom.

I only find one Word from God giving man direction on how to observe the Sabbath, and that is in the Law of Moses. Genesis 2 talks about God sanctifying that day and making it holy. It does NOT say that men and women at that time would observe the Sabbath in some special way.

If people want to observe what they consider the Sabbath, that's fine. But to say God's word encourages it anywhere other than the Law of Moses is mistaken.

I'm glad you do not teach people it is a command of God, or that He desires it of us, because that would be binding it on others, which would go fully against the New Covenant of Christ.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 06:52 PM
Shalom VR,

I have plenty! As I said, it is a spiritual blessing to celebrate the Sabbath. I grow in the L-rd. I learn more about Him, I grow closer to Him, I enjoy being in His presence. I grow in my knowledge of Him through learning about G-d the Father's plan and how intricately He wove everything together to speak of and glorify Yeshua! It is an awesome time.

Our family comes together as one. We often have guests and other families. We open the Scriptures and read how the Father instituted the Sabbath and how Jesus embodies it. We sing, we pray, we feast and we glorify and honor Yeshua!! It's wonderful!!!!!!!!!!

Our guests keep asking for re-invites! The last family we had over, the hubby said he was "blown away" at how much of a spiritual blessing they experienced by celebrating the Sabbath and how much more he understood the Word.

Couldn't you get pretty much the same thing from informal devotionals with friends, any day of the week?

I'm curious. Since the Law is the only place we read of how to observe the Jewish sabbath, where do you draw your instructions from?

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 06:58 PM
Shalom Matt,

I excluded your other questions about the "LAW", since I have shown they are not related to this topic.

This question disturbs me. You say you "respect" my desire to honor G-d and then you imply that I'm doing it wrong? :hmm: So, you have the right to tell me how to honor G-d? I think not.

And, FYI, I AM honoring G-d according to the New Covenant, since all I do is to honor Yeshua the Messiah. BUT Brother, I don't have to answer concerning my honor of G-d by celebrating Sabbath and other days, any more than you have to answer for why you do NOT celebrate the Biblical feasts. It is between you and G-d. You have no right to judge me and I have no right to judge you. It goes both ways.

We'll leave it at that.

I'm not judging you. I simply see things in the Word that do not add up to observing the Sabbath.

Did you know observance of the Sabbath is the only one of the 10 commandments not repeated in the New Testament? I think it's because:

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

The Sabbath day was a shadow of the reality of Christ. To observe the Sabbath, in my understanding, is to observe the shadow, when the fullness, the substance, is in Christ.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:00 PM
Nope. According to the Word you have already been given every spiritual blessing. You do not receive anymore of them from God. He has already given them to you. It seems you have a misunderstanding of what is actually happening when you walk in the spirit.

Shalom VR,

We are saying 2 different things. BTW, This is a "side argument" and I have explained my position several times. If you don't see it, then, we'll leave it at that. This will be my last reply to you on this subject since it is not on topic.

I will say that what I am saying is that we receive blessings in the L-rd! You cannot tell me that is not what the Bible says! I receive new blessings every day I walk in the L-rd!

1 Peter 3:8
8Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

2 Corinthians 1
11You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

This does not mean we will never have any more blessings!!



Holman Bible Dictionary


BLESSING AND CURSING are primary biblical emphases, as reflected in the 516 uses of words such as bless (132), blessed (285), blesses (10), blessing (70), and blessings (19); and the 199 occurrences of such words as curse (97), cursed (74), curses (19), and cursing (9).


The English word “bless” is often used to translate barak. The word means “to kneel” (2 Chronicles 6:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=2ch+6:13); Psalms 95:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ps+95:6)) and thus “to bless” (Genesis 27:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+27:33); Exodus 18:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ex+18:10); Deuteronomy 28:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=de+28:4)). Old Testament individuals might bless God (Genesis 9:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+9:26); Ezekiel 18:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=eze+18:10); Ruth 4:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ru+4:14); Psalms 68:19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ps+68:19)). God also blesses men and women (Genesis 12:23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+12:23); Numbers 23:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=nu+23:20); Psalms 109:28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ps+109:28); Isaiah 61:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=isa+61:9)). Persons might also bless one another (Genesis 27:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+27:33); Deuteronomy 7:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=de+7:14); 1 Samuel 25:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=1sa+25:33)), or they might bless things (Deuteronomy 28:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=de+28:4); 1 Samuel 25:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=1sa+25:33); Proverbs 5:18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=pr+5:18)). Normally, however, when used as a verb, the word is in the passive voice (“be blessed”), as though to suggest that persons do not have in themselves the power to bless.


Words of blessing also are used as a salutation or greeting, with an invocation of blessing as a stronger greeting than “peace” (shalom, Genesis 48:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+48:20)). As such it may be used in meeting (Genesis 47:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+47:7)), departing (Genesis 24:60 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+24:60)), by messengers (1 Samuel 25:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=1sa+25:14)), in gratitude (Job 31:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=job+31:20)), as a morning salutation (Proverbs 27:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=pr+27:14)), congratulations for prosperity (Genesis 12:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ge+12:3)), in homage (2 Samuel 14:22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=2sa+14:22)), and in friendliness (2 Samuel 21:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=2sa+21:3)).


In the New Testament, the word “bless” often translates makarios, meaning “blessed, fortunate, happy.”



The special characteristic of New Testament uses of “bless” and related words is close relationship to the religious joy people experience from being certain of salvation and thus of membership in the kingdom of God.



“Bless” occurs in the New Testament only ten times, in contrast to 122 Old Testament occurrences. The New Testament never uses “blesses” and uses “blessing” only 17 times. It is reasonable to conclude that the primary use of the blessing concept in the New Testament is that of “blessed” as opposed to the verbal emphasis on “bless.”


“Blessed” appears frequently in the New Testament (88). Especially is “blessed” well known for Jesus' references to the word in the Beatitudes of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:3-11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=mt+5:3-11)) and His congratulations to those who respond positively to the kingdom of God (Matthew 23:39 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=mt+23:39); Matthew 24:46 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=mt+24:46); Mark 11:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=mr+11:9); Luke 10:23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=lu+10:23); Luke 14:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=lu+14:15)). In contrast to frequent usage in the first three Gospels (52 occurrences) the Gospel of John uses the word “blessed” in only three places (John 12:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=joh+12:13); John 13:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=joh+13:17); John 20:29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=joh+20:29)).


Elsewhere, Pauline literature uses the word: “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered” (Romans 4:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=ro+4:7)); “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort” (2 Corinthians 1:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=2co+1:3)).


John often used the word in Revelation: “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein for the time is at hand” (Revelation 1:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+1:3)); “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+14:13); cf. Revelation 16:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+16:15); Revelation 19:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+19:9); Revelation 20:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+20:6); Revelation 22:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+22:7),Revelation 22:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?passage=re+22:14)).

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:04 PM
I'm not judging you. I simply see things in the Word that do not add up to observing the Sabbath.

Shalom,

LOL! Well, I call that judging dude!
You cannot prove by the Scriptures that observing the Sabbath is wrong and if you tell me it's wrong, you are judging what you should not. You have no Scriptural foundation to tell me to celebrate the Sabbath is wrong.

Romans 14

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28271G)) he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then,(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28273I)) whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 07:06 PM
Shalom VR,

We are saying 2 different things. BTW, This is a "side argument" and I have explained my position several times. If you don't see it, then, we'll leave it at that. This will be my last reply to you on this subject since it is not on topic.

I will say that what I am saying is that we receive blessings in the L-rd! You cannot tell me that is not what the Bible says! I receive new blessings every day I walk in the L-rd!

1 Peter 3:8
8Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

2 Corinthians 1
11You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

This does not mean we will never have any more blessings!!

He has either given us every spiritual blessing or He hasn't. The Word says He has, so that's the truth of the matter whether you agree or not. The Word is infallible, and the Word says we have already been given every blessing in the spirit that we will ever have. So, in other words we can take the Word for what it says, or we can take your side and disagree. I'll take what is infallible.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 07:08 PM
Shalom,

LOL! Well, I call that judging dude!


You call it judging when others don't agree with you?

If I don't agree with someone who says that Jesus isn't the Son of God, does that mean I'm judging them?

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 07:13 PM
Shalom,

LOL! Well, I call that judging dude!
You cannot prove by the Scriptures that observing the Sabbath is wrong and if you tell me it's wrong, you are judging what you should not. You have no Scriptural foundation to tell me to celebrate the Sabbath is wrong.

Romans 14



[/B]
It is God's word that judges, not me. :)

Jesus said:

Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

Righteous judgment would be that which is according to His word.

As I've said over and over, my concern is with encouraging others to see it as a requirement, or something desired by the Lord for us to do. There is no basis in the NT for such an observance in the Christian church.

I know you are answering a lot of posts in rapid succession, but if you get a chance I'd like to know where you get your instructions on how to observe the Sabbath.

Thanks!

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:16 PM
You call it judging when others don't agree with you?

If I don't agree with someone who says that Jesus isn't the Son of God, does that mean I'm judging them?

Shalom VR,

You just want to argue don't you? :rolleyes:

Sorry, you baited me with your last post and now this one. I'm not taking the bait. Shalom to you Brother.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 07:21 PM
Shalom VR,

You just want to argue don't you? :rolleyes:

Sorry, you baited me with your last post and now this one. I'm not taking the bait. Shalom to you Brother.

I'm simply responding to your posts. It seems you think everyone on this board judges you by your constant comments on the matter. Questioning what someone does when the practice is the topic of an educational discussion, and disagreeing with them on what the Scriptures say on this subject is not judging. We are trying to educate folks on the truth of the Scriptures. If you don't want people disagreeing with your position, and you're going to take offense and accuse people of judging you when they do disagree, then Scriptural discussion may not be the best place for you to be.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:21 PM
It is God's word that judges, not me. :)

Shalom,

That's a cop out.

PROVE that observing the Sabbath unto Jesus is wrong, or cease and desist saying that it is. Please read what I posted - Romans 14. You should NOT judge concerning the Sabbath.


5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike.(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28270F)) Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since(G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28271G)) he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For(H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28272H)) none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then,(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28273I)) whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ(J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28274J)) died and lived again, that he might be Lord both(K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28274K)) of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28275L)) we will all stand before(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28275M)) the judgment seat of God;

G-d's Word is not judging me, for what I do IS His Word. YOU are judging me if you tell me not to do what G-d has said for me do and G-d's Word gives me the freedom to do. That is not your place. And according to the Scriptures, you are wrong to do so.



As I've said over and over, my concern is with encouraging others to see it as a requirement, or something desired by the Lord for us to do. There is no basis in the NT for such an observance in the Christian church.

As I've said over and over and over...we are not talking "requirement", and this is a Straw Man argument that is not part of this discussion as far as I'm concerned. So, please drop it. Your concern is unfounded.


I know you are answering a lot of posts in rapid succession, but if you get a chance I'd like to know where you get your instructions on how to observe the Sabbath.

I have no instructions for people who do not wish to celebrate, observe it and honor the L-rd in it.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:22 PM
I'm simply responding to your posts. It seems you think everyone on this board judges you by your constant comments on the matter. Questioning what someone does when the practice is the topic of a educational discussion, and disagreeing with them on what the Scriptures say on this subject is not judging. We are trying to educate folks on the truth of the Scriptures. If you don't want people disagreeing with your position, and you're going to take offense and accuse people of judging you when they do disagree, then Scriptural discussion may not be the best place for you to be.

Shalom to VR,
I'm not responding to your bait.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 07:24 PM
I have no instructions for people who do not wish to celebrate, observe it and honor the L-rd in it.

I will respond to the rest of your post in just a moment, but I want to clarify that I am asking YOU where YOU get your instructions on how to observe and honor the Lord on the Sabbath.

Thanks!

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 07:26 PM
Shalom to VR,
I'm not responding to your bait.

Bait for what? I'm simply responding to your posts. First you are being judged, and now you are being baited. I really do not get where you're coming from at all.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:30 PM
I will respond to the rest of your post in just a moment, but I want to clarify that I am asking YOU where YOU get your instructions on how to observe and honor the Lord on the Sabbath.

Thanks!

Shalom Matt,

The Scriptures. The Holy Word of G-d. The Holy Spirit of G-d.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 07:32 PM
Shalom Matt,

The Scriptures. The Holy Word of G-d. The Holy Spirit of G-d.

Where, though? What passages?

Thanks!

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 07:33 PM
Shalom Matt,

The Scriptures. The Holy Word of G-d. The Holy Spirit of G-d.

I could be wrong, but I believe he is asking you where in the Scriptures specifically do you find direction for how to observe the Sabbath.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 07:44 PM
Shalom,

That's a cop out.

PROVE that observing the Sabbath unto Jesus is wrong, or cease and desist saying that it is.

I don't think I said it was wrong, I think I said it was unauthorized by the New Testament, and that it is a shadow of the reality that is in Christ. To me, that's proof enough!


Please read what I posted - Romans 14. You should NOT judge concerning the Sabbath.

Where do you see Sabbath in Romans 14? I see "the day," which could refer to any festival or observance. He in discussing private practice, not church practice.

If "judge not" were the rule for the church in worship and practice, who would have a right to say ANYTHING was wrong? :hmm:


G-d's Word is not judging me, for what I do IS His Word. YOU are judging me if you tell me not to do what G-d has said for me do and G-d's Word gives me the freedom to do. That is not your place. And according to the Scriptures, you are wrong to do so.

What you've yet to show is where God has said for you to observe the Sabbath! Unless it's the Law of Moses.


As I've said over and over and over...we are not talking "requirement", and this is a Straw Man argument that is not part of this discussion as far as I'm concerned. So, please drop it. Your concern is unfounded.

I'm glad my concerns are unfounded. And yet, you keep bringing up things like, "God has said for me to do it," like you said above. I'm just not getting a consistent picture.

in Christ,

Matt

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:53 PM
Where, though? What passages?

Thanks!

Shalom Matt,

Here are just some:

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Matthew 12:
8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Luke 6
On another Sabbath, he entered the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was withered. 7And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him. 8But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come and stand here." And he rose and stood there. 9And Jesus said to them, "I ask you,is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?"10And after looking around at them all he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." And he did so, and his hand was restored.

Luke 14
1One Sabbath, when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were watching him carefully. 2And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy. 3And Jesus responded to(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-25548C)) the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?" 4But they remained silent. Then he took him and healed him and sent him away. 5And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well on a Sabbath day, will not immediately pull him out?"6 And they could not reply to these things.


2 Corinthians 3
3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Colossians 2
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10f or whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.


Romans 14:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike.(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28270F)) Each one should be fully convinced in hisown mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;


Matthew 5:
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 07:57 PM
I don't think I said it was wrong, I think I said it was unauthorized by the New Testament, and that it is a shadow of the reality that is in Christ. To me, that's proof enough!

Shalom Matt,

Nope, it's not proof of anything. What that verse means is that we are now honoring the REAL Jesus in the Sabbath, not a shadow of things to come.




Where do you see Sabbath in Romans 14? I see "the day," which could refer to any festival or observance. He in discussing private practice, not church practice.The Sabbath is a "day." Who said anything about "church practice?" Assumptions are bad things. :lol:


If "judge not" were the rule for the church in worship and practice, who would have a right to say ANYTHING was wrong? Ask G-d, He wrote not to judge someone's observance of a "day."




I'm glad my concerns are unfounded. And yet, you keep bringing up things like, "God has said for me to do it," like you said above. I'm just not getting a consistent picture.I understand because you are Church of Christ that you interpret Scriptures differently that other denominations. However, the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit will teach us and guide us and He does.

If I recall correctly, you don't believe in music in the church and I do. You've called it "wrong" and "sin" to use instruments in church. We don't interpret the Scriptures the same. You are not to judge observing the Sabbath, that is the Scriptural truth.

Adam
Sep 21st 2007, 08:08 PM
According to Mt 28:11, it is not observing the Sabbath that gives us rest, is is Jesus:

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 08:12 PM
Shalom Matt,

Here are just some:

Genesis 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

This passage gives no instruction to man on observing the Sabbath.


Matthew 12:
8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

This passage says nothing about how to observe the Sabbath. Remember, also, that as long as Jesus was alive on the earth, the Law was in full effect.


Matthew 11
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I don't see anything here about Sabbath observance. In fact, the "rest" Jesus refers to here is a reference to Jeremiah 6:16.


Luke 6
On another Sabbath, he entered the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was withered. 7And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him. 8But he knew their thoughts, and he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come and stand here." And he rose and stood there. 9And Jesus said to them, "I ask you,is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?"10And after looking around at them all he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." And he did so, and his hand was restored.

Another passage with no instruction for how to observe the Sabbath, unless we take Jesus' teachings that it is okay to do good on the Sabbath, even if it breaks the Law of Moses. Still no instruction for the church, though.


Luke 14
1One Sabbath, when he went to dine at the house of a ruler of the Pharisees, they were watching him carefully. 2And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy. 3And Jesus responded to(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-25548C)) the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?" 4But they remained silent. Then he took him and healed him and sent him away. 5And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well on a Sabbath day, will not immediately pull him out?"6 And they could not reply to these things.

Same as above.


2 Corinthians 3
3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Not sure how this instructs a person to act on the Sabbath.


Colossians 2
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

And I totally agree, but you left out the next verse:

Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Again, though, no instruction on what to do on the Sabbath.


Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10f or whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

The Hebrew writer is saying Jesus Christ is our rest. But still, no explanation on HOW to observe the Sabbath.


Romans 14:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike.(F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2014;&version=47;#cen-ESV-28270F)) Each one should be fully convinced in hisown mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

This is not specifically talking about the Sabbath, as I posted earlier.


Matthew 5:
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Has all been accomplished? Christ said the Law would not pass away until all was completed. When He died, His work was accomplished.


19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.[/quote]

By posting these two passages, you seem to be saying that one who teaches people not to observe the Sabbath is doing something wrong. But yet, would that not contradict your own position that the Sabbath is not part of the Law of Moses?

-

So, the question remains: How do you know how to celebrate the Sabbath? What passages do you use as your guide?

-

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 08:19 PM
I understand because you are Church of Christ that you interpret Scriptures differently that other denominations.

Speaking of straw men...

What does that have to do with the discussion at hand, except to distract?


However, the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit will teach us and guide us and He does.

The scriptures say that the Holy Spirit would bring the apostles into all truth, not you and me. If you were there when Jesus made the promises of John 14:26 and 16:13, then you will be miraculously brought into all truth. Only the apostles received that promise.


If I recall correctly, you don't believe in music in the church and I do. You've called it "wrong" and "sin" to use instruments in church. We don't interpret the Scriptures the same. You are not to judge observing the Sabbath, that is the Scriptural truth.

Again, I'm not sure what the Bible's teachings on instrumental music have to do with the discussion at hand. But I'd be glad to discuss that with you, as well, in another thread.

God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 08:22 PM
So, the question remains: How do you know how to celebrate the Sabbath? What passages do you use as your guide?-

Shalom Matt,

You asked for my Scriptures. I gave them.

How we know how to celebrate is by example and by the Scriptures posted and by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you are Church of Christ and I disagree with how you examine Scriptures. Of course you "don't see" what I'm talking about. But, that's OK, I'm not here to convince you of anything. And, in my past discussions with you, I do know that your Church of Christ beliefs and mine are very different.

So, in hopes those reading will check out the Scriptures I posted, I must get about making my preparations for the Sabbath.

Matt14, you and I will never agree on the Sabbath and you are wrong to judge someone for observing the Sabbath according to Romans 14. If you choose not to celebrate the Sabbath, that's your choice, if someone chooses to as unto the L-rd, they have full Scriptural freedom to do so (AS I POSTED) and for you to judge them and to say they are wrong is violating Scripture.

With that, I must attend to my family's Sabbath preparations and I bid you peace in the spirit of Sabbath, who is Yeshua our L-rd.

Shalom.

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 08:27 PM
Speaking of straw men...

What does that have to do with the discussion at hand, except to distract?

Shalom,

It shows that your Church of Christ beliefs are coming into play here in your examining the Scriptures concerning Sabbath.



The scriptures say that the Holy Spirit would bring the apostles into all truth, not you and me. If you were there when Jesus made the promises of John 14:26 and 16:13, then you will be miraculously brought into all truth. Only the apostles received that promise. Obviously, your denomination's beliefs are that. Sorry, I believe the Bible says the Holy Spirit will teach US and guide US and He does. We will not agree here either.



gain, I'm not sure what the Bible's teachings on instrumental music have to do with the discussion at hand.To show how your denominational beliefs are examining these Scriptures. Like you believe instruments in church are "wrong" and "sin." and I disagree, I disagree with the Church of Christ's beliefs on other things, such as Sabbath celebration.

You believe if it isn't a command in the NT it is wrong to do. I do not hold those beliefs, nor do I believe them to be Scriptural. That is my point in bringing up where you are coming from. Not to tear down your beliefs, but to show why we are not seeing the same thing in the same Scriptures.


But I'd be glad to discuss that with you, as well, in another thread.No thank you! I've been there, done that and donated that T-shirt to a worthy cause! But, thanks for the invite. :D

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 08:32 PM
Shalom Matt,

You asked for my Scriptures. I gave them.

How we know how to celebrate is by example and by the Scriptures posted and by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you are Church of Christ and I disagree with how you examine Scriptures. Of course you "don't see" what I'm talking about. But, that's OK, I'm not here to convince you of anything. And, in my past discussions with you, I do know that your Church of Christ beliefs and mine are very different.

So, in hopes those reading will check out the Scriptures I posted, I must get about making my preparations for the Sabbath.

Matt14, you and I will never agree on the Sabbath and you are wrong to judge someone for observing the Sabbath. If you choose not to, that's your choice, if someone chooses to, they have full Scriptural freedom to do so (AS I POSTED) and to judge them and to say they are wrong is violating Scripture.

With that, I must attend to my family's Sabbath preparations and I bid you peace in the spirit of Sabbath, who is Yeshua our L-rd.

Shalom.

Hopefully your repeated reference to "your Church of Christ beliefs" won't disuade people from examining those scriptures.

What preparations are you making for the Sabbath, BTW? Wouldn't be those ones contained in the Law of Moses, would they?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 08:36 PM
What preparations are you making for the Sabbath, BTW? Wouldn't be those ones contained in the Law of Moses, would they?

Shalom,

:lol: :lol: You're a funny guy. Shabbat Shalom.

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 08:38 PM
Shalom,

:lol: :lol: You're a funny guy. Shabbat Shalom.

'Twas a serious question. Why will you not answer anything about what passages you use to guide you in HOW to celebrate? If you must get everything done before sundown, I suspect you are working from the Law of Moses. :)

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 08:48 PM
'Twas a serious question. Why will you not answer anything about what passages you use to guide you in HOW to celebrate? If you must get everything done before sundown, I suspect you are working from the Law of Moses. :)

Shalom,

Matt14,

Quite frankly, it doesn't bother me WHAT you suspect. And it's wrong of you to suspect or judge anything concerning MY observance of Sabbath! It ain't your place and the Scriptures say it's wrong to do.

As I said before, you should really watch your false assumptions.

I never said ANYTHING about doing anything before sundown, did I? :rolleyes: Shame on you! Nope, you're wrong again! :lol:

Also, I have a bunch to do because I am attending a seminar at our church tonight on music in worship because I will be leading worship for the small group that I am the leader of and I play guitar.

Shalom!

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 08:50 PM
Okay, so my answer is, "no answer."

Thanks, and God bless.

jiggyfly
Sep 21st 2007, 08:51 PM
Not only that but what the tithe pictured is that WE are the tithe Jesus offers to the Father!
I am not sure that I am following you on this, can you elaborate some please?

Vickilynn
Sep 21st 2007, 08:53 PM
Okay, so my answer is, "no answer."

Thanks, and God bless.


posted by Vickilynn
I never said ANYTHING about doing anything before sundown, did I? :rolleyes: Shame on you! Nope, you're wrong again! :lol:

You're welcome and Shalom!

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 09:35 PM
Matt14 is correct in that if you are going to observe the Sabbath, the Law of Moses is the only place where you will find direction for that observance. Sort of boggles the mind if one says it's not about the law but yet they use the law to determine how they will follow something.:dunno:

Matt14
Sep 21st 2007, 09:37 PM
Matt14 is correct in that if you are going to observe the Sabbath, the Law of Moses is the only place where you will find direction for that observance. Sort of boggles the mind if one says it's not about the law but yet they use the law to determine how they will follow something.:dunno:

That is the exact conclusion, and probably the reason the question keeps being evaded.

Someone asks me why I believe something, I'll show them book, chapter and verse. Thanks for your good posts, VR.

God bless you.

VerticalReality
Sep 21st 2007, 09:40 PM
Thanks for your good posts, VR.

God bless you.

Same to you, Matt14!

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 01:28 AM
Shalom,

Oh, listen to you guys high-fiving each other for your wonderfulness!! :lol: Too funny!! What a hoot! Y'all sure tickle me! Thanks for the Sabbath smiles!!

Naphal
Sep 22nd 2007, 01:57 AM
Shalom,

Oh, listen to you guys high-fiving each other for your wonderfulness!! :lol: Too funny!! What a hoot! Y'all sure tickle me! Thanks for the Sabbath smiles!!

I do hope you are aware that you have a tendency to do that as well. If you find it annoying when others do it just think that it might be possible others find it annoying when you do it.

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:17 AM
I am not sure that I am following you on this, can you elaborate some please?
(Rom 15:16 KJV) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

(Mark 9:49-50 KJV) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. {50} Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

(Rom 12:1 KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(Rom 16:5 KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

(1 Cor 16:15 KJV) I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

(James 1:18 KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

(Rev 14:4 KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

(Jer 2:3 KJV) Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

(Exo 13:15 KJV) And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

This should probably be in its own thread, but I think this will give you the idea.

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:42 AM
I do hope you are aware that you have a tendency to do that as well. If you find it annoying when others do it just think that it might be possible others find it annoying when you do it.

Shalom Naphal,

Tsk tsk tsk.

You don't know me very well and you are letting our differences get in the way of your objectivity when you read my posts.

I said I thought it was a hoot and it is! It made me laugh out loud. I didn't find it annoying at all! I found it hysterical!

Next time, you may try asking before you assume you know how someone is feeling, it will save you from being wrong. :saint:

Naphal
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:44 AM
Shalom Naphal,

Tsk tsk tsk.

You don't know me very well and you are letting our differences get in the way of your objectivity when you read my posts.

I said I thought it was a hoot and it is! It made me laugh out loud. I didn't find it annoying at all! I found it hysterical!

Next time, you may try asking before you assume you know how someone is feeling, it will save you from being wrong. :saint:


Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you that you often do the same as they have done.

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:49 AM
Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you that you often do the same as they have done.

Shalom Naphal,

No, actually, you did a LOT more than that. And you were wrong.
:rofl: Anyway, I found it funny for these guys to slap each other on the back like that, so I hope others find it funny if I do it. I'm always aim to please! :D

Naphal
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:52 AM
:rofl: Anyway, I found it funny for these guys to slap each other on the back like that, so I hope others find it funny if I do it. I'm always aim to please! :D

Yep, it's always funny when people do that, especially when they do it over and over and over in a thread.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 03:46 AM
Matt14 is correct in that if you are going to observe the Sabbath, the Law of Moses is the only place where you will find direction for that observance. Sort of boggles the mind if one says it's not about the law but yet they use the law to determine how they will follow something.:dunno:

Seems the LORD believes they are His commandments. Including the sabbath. Well, thats what He told Moses.

EXODUS 16 [28] AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, HOW LONG REFUSE YE TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and my laws? [29] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.[30] So the people rested on the seventh day.

I dont know who decided to lump the 10 commandments in with laws given to Moses, with the statutes and so on... to come up with 613 of them. But you certainly wont find that written in the bible.

NEH. 9 [13] Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, AND true laws, good statutes AND commandments: [14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

AND laws AND commandments. AND is a pretty simple word to understand.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 04:08 AM
Did you know observance of the Sabbath is the only one of the 10 commandments not repeated in the New Testament? I think it's because:


The observance of the sabbath is not repeated in the new testament? The NT guys below observed the sabbath.

LUKE 4 [14] And JESUS returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.[15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.

JESUS observed the sabbath

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

PAUL observed the sabbath

ACTS 13 [42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, THE GENTILES besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.[43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.[44] And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY CAME ALMOST THE WHOLE CITY TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

The GENTILES came together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 04:33 AM
When did God begin requiring man to observe the Sabbath?

Not really sure

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Honest Abe was keeping Gods 10 commandments. We know that the 4th commandment is Gods sabbath day. But whether Abe was the 1st to keep it, i cant say.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:13 AM
Hi all,

I was wondering if you could give me your thoughts on a question I have... I've seen this as a sub-theme in several threads and think it deserves (pardon the pun) it's own day in the sun :D

Is the Sabbath still in effect?

If so, is there a specific day it must be observed? Saturday? Sunday? Everyday?

And lastily, what specificially must we do (if anything) to "keep It holy"?

I'd give you my thoughts now, but I'm not sure I have an answer here... Just a question ;)

Thanks and God Bless!

Yes the sabbath is still in effect. Just read Hebrews 4 (without someone there to tell ya it really doesnt mean what it says). It is to be observed fri sundown till sat sundown. To keep it Holy we must keep it as the commandment says, while disregarding all the other sabbath commands which the tribe of Judah added to the original commandment.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:17 AM
Seems the LORD believes they are His commandments. Including the sabbath. Well, thats what He told Moses.

EXODUS 16 [28] AND THE LORD SAID UNTO MOSES, HOW LONG REFUSE YE TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS and my laws? [29] See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.[30] So the people rested on the seventh day.

I dont know who decided to lump the 10 commandments in with laws given to Moses, with the statutes and so on... to come up with 613 of them. But you certainly wont find that written in the bible.

NEH. 9 [13] Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, AND true laws, good statutes AND commandments: [14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

AND laws AND commandments. AND is a pretty simple word to understand.


I'm not sure what it is you are arguing.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:21 AM
JESUS observed the sabbath

Of course He did. He was born under the law.


PAUL observed the sabbath

What Scripture says Paul observed the Sabbath? I see Scriptures that indicate that Paul preached the gospel to those in the synagogues on the Sabbath, but don't you think it's possible that he did so not because he was observing the Sabbath, but because this was a great opportunity to preach the gospel to a lot of folks at one time?


The GENTILES came together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.

So what's your point? When else were they going to hear it? That was the time it was being preached. The gentiles are never once ordered to keep the Sabbath.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:23 AM
Yes the sabbath is still in effect. Just read Hebrews 4 (without someone there to tell ya it really doesnt mean what it says). It is to be observed fri sundown till sat sundown. To keep it Holy we must keep it as the commandment says, while disregarding all the other sabbath commands which the tribe of Judah added to the original commandment.

So it is your assertion that the law is still in full effect. So again, my question to you remains the same. Why do we not receive judgment for trangressing these laws?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:30 AM
[/font]

What Scripture says Paul observed the Sabbath? I see Scriptures that indicate that Paul preached the gospel to those in the synagogues on the Sabbath, but don't you think it's possible that he did so not because he was observing the Sabbath, but because this was a great opportunity to preach the gospel to a lot of folks at one time?


I dont try and read anything into the scriptures that is not there. If the scriptures say Paul (as his manner was) or Jesus (as His custom was) was keeping the sabbath day, i simply believe the scriptures.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:43 AM
So it is your assertion that the law is still in full effect. So again, my question to you remains the same. Why do we not receive judgment for trangressing these laws?

DEUT. 7 [9] Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; [10] AND REPAYETH THEM THAT HATE HIM TO THEIR FACE, TO DESTROY THEM: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. [11] Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Judgement will come. Begins right around the time of scripture below. Face to face. Ends at the Great White Throne.

Rev. 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

jiggyfly
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:24 AM
(Rom 15:16 KJV) That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

(Mark 9:49-50 KJV) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. {50} Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

(Rom 12:1 KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(Rom 16:5 KJV) Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

(1 Cor 16:15 KJV) I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

(James 1:18 KJV) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

(Rev 14:4 KJV) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

(Jer 2:3 KJV) Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

(Exo 13:15 KJV) And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

This should probably be in its own thread, but I think this will give you the idea.
I think I follow you now, what threw me off was you used the word tithe which means tenth but correct me if I am wrong you mean we are His offering or sacrifice to Father.

jiggyfly
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:31 AM
The observance of the sabbath is not repeated in the new testament? The NT guys below observed the sabbath.

LUKE 4 [14] And JESUS returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.[15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.

JESUS observed the sabbath

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

PAUL observed the sabbath

ACTS 13 [42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, THE GENTILES besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.[43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.[44] And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY CAME ALMOST THE WHOLE CITY TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

The GENTILES came together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.
The whole world goes places on the sabbath day but that doesn't mean that they are observing it. The scriptures you stated only mention that it took place on the sabbath it doesn't say they observe it.

jiggyfly
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:37 AM
I dont try and read anything into the scriptures that is not there. If the scriptures say Paul (as his manner was) or Jesus (as His custom was) was keeping the sabbath day, i simply believe the scriptures.
What scriptures say that Jesus or Paul were keeping the sabbath. You say you don't try to read anything into the scriptures but I believe you are in this case.

Where does it say Abraham kept God's ten commandments?

Firstfruits
Sep 22nd 2007, 12:24 PM
No, i don't agree with that at all. Scriptures tell us that we either are enslaved to the bondage of sin, or that we are in bondage to God....
So we chose, and we chose to either do what He says or we don't. We either fullfil His requirement, or we don't.

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.




Scripture tells us :"repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"
That's why He wants us to get back on track... Matter of fact your assertion that God is only just now trying to get man back on track is false, God has been asking man to straighten up since the fall of man.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And with that i'm going to leave this thread, because it is not edifying, it's argumentative and repetitive.
And that is due to the fact that you believe you have got the correct understanding of scripture. :rolleyes:

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Thanks for your answer, however, If a true believer/follower of Christ is required by God to do something and they do not, because they choose not to, are they sinning against God, since the requirement is Gods?

Matt14
Sep 22nd 2007, 01:21 PM
To anyone who believes the Law is still in effect, Paul would say:

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

And with that, I don't have much more to add.

God bless, everyone.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 01:47 PM
DEUT. 7 [9] Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; [10] AND REPAYETH THEM THAT HATE HIM TO THEIR FACE, TO DESTROY THEM: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. [11] Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Judgement will come. Begins right around the time of scripture below. Face to face. Ends at the Great White Throne.

Rev. 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

And as I've told others in this thread, under the old covenant God never waited till the end of this age before He delivered His judgment. When Saul broke the law, he was judged and judged right then. When David broke the law he was judged and judged right then. Why is the Lord not judging us now if the law is still applicable?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:19 PM
And as I've told others in this thread, under the old covenant God never waited till the end of this age before He delivered His judgment. When Saul broke the law, he was judged and judged right then. When David broke the law he was judged and judged right then. Why is the Lord not judging us now if the law is still applicable?

If what you say was true. Immediate judgement for all who sinned in the old testament. Jesus would have been born into an empty earth. For all have sinned.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 02:42 PM
To anyone who believes the Law is still in effect, Paul would say:

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

And with that, I don't have much more to add.

God bless, everyone.

Hi Matt14. Happy sabbath day and happy day of atonement (one of Gods feast days we are still to be keeping). You quoted a one liner out of Romans and said you had nothing more to add. Maybe so, but the bible has plenty to add about keeping Gods law in newness of spirit.

ROMANS 7 [6] But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE IN NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE OLDNESS OF THE LETTER.

In Romans youll find we as believers are to keep the law in newness of spirit and be delivered from the (curse) of the letter. Did Jesus explain how we are to walk in newness of the spirit? Sure did.

2 COR. 3 [6] WHO ALSO HATH MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE. [7] BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVEN IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINETH IS GLORIOUS.

Says the same thing here Matt14. As we can see in above scripture we are now to walk in the spirit of the law. If we walk in only the letter of the law this will lead to death, but if we walk in the spirit of the law this leads to life. So how did Jesus tell us we are to walk in the spirit of His law?

MATTHEW 5 [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT KILL; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER IS ANGRY WITH HIS BROTHER WITHOUT A CAUSE SHALL BE IN DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not kill
NEW SPIRIT- Don’t even get angry. Call no man a fool. Love one another in thought, word and deed.

MATTHEW 5 [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY: [28] BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT WHOSOEVER LOOKETH ON A WOMAN TO LUST AFTER HER HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY WITH HER ALREADY IN HIS HEART.

OLD LETTER- Thou shalt not commit adultery
NEW SPIRIT- Do not look on a woman to lust. Keep the law in our mind and spirit. Even in our eyes.

So you can see that Jesus did not do away with the letter of the law. Common sense will tell ya in order to walk in the spirit of the law you must also be walking in the letter. Can you commit the very act of adultry (the letter of the law) and then claim you have not sinned because you did not lust after her with your eyes (the spirit of the law). Jesus made the commandments even harder to keep and more honorable.

ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.

Yes, Jesus magnified the law. He took the letter of the law (which leads to death) and magnified the law to a spiritual level (which leads to life). Lets talk about what is written in Isaiah 42. Does it mean what it says? Or...does it mean Jesus came and got rid of the law as some here have claimed.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 03:38 PM
And as I've told others in this thread, under the old covenant God never waited till the end of this age before He delivered His judgment. When Saul broke the law, he was judged and judged right then. When David broke the law he was judged and judged right then. Why is the Lord not judging us now if the law is still applicable?

You will find places in the old testament where there was immediate judgement. Just as you will find immediate judgement in the new testament. After Christ had risen.

Acts 5:1-10
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, [2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. [3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? [4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. [5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. [6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. [7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. [8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. [9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. [10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

But...whats your point? Where is this leading.

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2007, 03:43 PM
The ministration of the Spirit is more glorious than the Mosaic law which served only to bring death to sin. Why? Because the Spirit ministers life.

The Spirit works inwardly rather than outwardly upon the man who has been forgiven and received the Atonement; because his conscience has been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. This is what the law of Moses could not accomplish. It could not give him a new heart or the power to overcome and so he would repeat his sins. The new covenant brings in this new power and new heart and we walk in it by the Spirit we have been given who now guides us and corrects us. The moral law of God is thus accomplished in the new man born by the Spirit. The Spirit of God directs us into life and brings forth the fruit of the Spirit to not only teach us to cease from doing wrong, but also to enable us to do right. He works not by the letter but by love.

The man who is loving his neighbor does not need to be told not to murder him, because his focus is not on how to hate him and get away with it; but how to love him. The letter causes the former attitude while the Spirit works the latter. Because the letter has a penalty attached, it made the man focus upon how to find a loophole so that he could be seen as righteous outwardly and thereby avoid the curse, yet still seething and plotting in his heart for vengeance. The Spirit has released us from this bondage by which the law worked to make sin even more sinful by filling our hearts with the love of God.

The Spirit filled man works from love not from law. He is not focused on how he can be seen as keeping the letter for his righteousness. Rather his focus is on how or what he can do to bring benefit to others. Under law the man only did what the letter said and no more. You can see this in the traditions that developed from a hyper-literal interpretation of the law. Law Ex: God said to bind the word upon your hands and forehead and so men designed phylacteries to wear by which they thought they were keeping this law.

The Mosaic law was intended to teach the people the holiness of the God they served. But they turned this knowledge into mere form and ritual. And it was because of their sin, they were unable to do anything different. Therefore we can see the need for ritual sacrifices to be repeated over and over in order to deal with sin - until that time Messiah arrived to put away sin and its penalty for which men were held accountable under law.

Law is for the lawless man, but for the man who has been declared righteous in the sight of God, the Spirit works in him thru love without fear of judgment. The thief is the one who must fear the law and getting caught; while the man who does not covet his neighbors goods is free from this concern. Which one do you have to warn over and over not to steal? Certainly not the man whose heart has been healed. For the only instruction he needs is that to which no penalty is attached and no law can minister - how to love. That is the perfect law of liberty which we are under. The one that works by grace thru faith in love.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 03:50 PM
What scriptures say that Jesus or Paul were keeping the sabbath. You say you don't try to read anything into the scriptures but I believe you are in this case.
Where does it say Abraham kept God's ten commandments?

The scriptures i posted. You dont think that Jesus kept the sabbath? Even those who claim we are not under the law now, claim that Jesus was under the law. You dont think that Jesus committed sin do ya?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Believing that John knew what he was talking about and believing that Jesus was without sin i would have to say your wrong about Jesus breaking the 4th commandment.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:30 PM
If what you say was true. Immediate judgement for all who sinned in the old testament. Jesus would have been born into an empty earth. For all have sinned.

Why is that? David was judged, but he was not killed. Why do you say it would be an empty earth?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:32 PM
For the only instruction he needs is that to which no penalty is attached and no law can minister - how to love. That is the perfect law of liberty which we are under. The one that works by grace thru faith in love.

I read your post 4 times. They are all nice, smooth words. It would take all day to see if they were all backed up by scripture. So i decided to question your final 3 sentences. Ive shown scripture that proves that the keeping of the 10 commandments is exactly how show our love for God and our nieghbor. You also claim the "perfect law of liberty" has nothing to do with the keeping of Gods 10 commandments. What does scripture say?

JAMES 1 [22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.[25] But whoso looketh into THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY, and continueth therein, he being NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER, BUT A DOER OF THE WORK, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

ROMANS 2 [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

The perfect law of liberty. Blessed be the man that be a doer of the work. Work??? WORK? Bad word for some.


JAMES 2 [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by THE LAW OF LIBERTY.

Do not commit adultry, do not kill (the 10 commandments) and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Keep ALL 10. Ya practice to break one, your guilty of all. You are a transgressor. Do you keep Gods day of rest (the sabbath) or do you keep mans day of rest?

PSALM 119 [42] So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.[43] And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.[44] So shall I KEEP THY LAW continually for ever and ever.[45] And I WILL WALK AT LIBERTY: for I seek thy precepts.[46] I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.[47] And I WILL DELIGHT MYSELF IN THY COMMANDMENTS, which I have loved.

So shall I keep thy law continually AND delight myself in thy commandments and WILL WALK AT LIBERTY. That cant be misinterpreted

Yup. Keep Gods 10 commandments and walk in the perfect law of liberty.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:34 PM
You will find places in the old testament where there was immediate judgement. Just as you will find immediate judgement in the new testament. After Christ had risen.

Acts 5:1-10
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, [2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. [3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? [4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. [5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. [6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. [7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. [8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. [9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. [10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

But...whats your point? Where is this leading.

Do you regularly see people falling dead for trying to lie? In addition, can you prove with Acts 5 that it is God taking the life of Ananias and Sapphira?

What about the curses I listed previously in Deuteronomy 27 and 28? Why are we no longer cursed if we treat our father or mother with contempt?

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 05:49 PM
Shalom,

Just a quick reminder that the topic of this thread is SABBATH, not the Law of Moses and not the penalties for breaking the Law of Moses. May we please get back to the OP topic?

Thanks!

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 06:23 PM
Shalom,

Just a quick reminder that the topic of this thread is SABBATH, not the Law of Moses and not the penalties for breaking the Law of Moses. May we please get back to the OP topic?

Thanks!

Thank you for your concern, and we are all aware that you do not believe that the Sabbath has anything to do with the law. However, I disagree with you, as do many others in this thread as well.

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 06:30 PM
Thank you for your concern, and we are all aware that you do not believe that the Sabbath has anything to do with the law. However, I disagree with you, as do many others in this thread as well.

Shalom VR,

But the topic of THIS thread is not the Law or judgment of breaking the Law, but rather Sabbath.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 06:32 PM
Shalom VR,

But the topic of THIS thread is not the Law or judgment of breaking the Law, but rather Sabbath.

If the Sabbath is part of the law, which I believe it is, then law and judgment is just as much a part of this topic as well. However, if a moderator has issue with this topic, and they feel it is drifting away from the OP, then I'm sure they are capable of letting everyone know how they feel.

Vickilynn
Sep 22nd 2007, 06:51 PM
If the Sabbath is part of the law, which I believe it is, then law and judgment is just as much a part of this topic as well. However, if a moderator has issue with this topic, and they feel it is drifting away from the OP, then I'm sure they are capable of letting everyone know how they feel.

Shalom VR,

Excuse me, but if you have a right to YOUR opinion and are able to post it, so does everyone else have a right to post theirs. No one need be a Moderator to request the topic return to the OP. If you have a problem with my posts, you are free to ignore them. Why don't you exercise that freedom?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:05 PM
Do you regularly see people falling dead for trying to lie? In addition, can you prove with Acts 5 that it is God taking the life of Ananias and Sapphira?

What about the curses I listed previously in Deuteronomy 27 and 28? Why are we no longer cursed if we treat our father or mother with contempt?

I have no idea how anything you said or are trying to say has anything to do with the sabbath day or any of the 10 commandments for that matter. Your talking in circles. Why should i want to prove it was God who took the life of Ananias and Sapphia? What in the wide wide world of sports would that prove. Although i doubt it was satan who killed them. he kinda likes those who lie.

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:11 PM
The scriptures i posted. You dont think that Jesus kept the sabbath? Even those who claim we are not under the law now, claim that Jesus was under the law. You dont think that Jesus committed sin do ya?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Believing that John knew what he was talking about and believing that Jesus was without sin i would have to say your wrong about Jesus breaking the 4th commandment.Jesus' rest was to do the will of the Father who sent Him. Our rest is in His redemption accomplished at the cross by the power of the Spirit thru faith in Him. We are not merely resting in the creative work of the Father as Israel was when looking forward to Messiah, but in His redemptive work now provided to us. We therefore rest in Him by faith with hope, in His love as we await His return. The Sabbath rest pictured that ceasing of our work - not for a physical rest from work that it required in the goodness of God's creation, but in the spiritual regeneration that was coming - and is now here, of a redeemed creation. We are those who have this redemption.

The 7 feasts of Israel have thus all been fulfilled by the 1st Advent. All of these things that were given to Israel in anticipation of Messiah's arrival are now pictured and remembered by us in the Lord's Table. The shadow of these things was still a mystery, which has been given light by the cross.

Its a bit like giving the keys to your car to your son only have to have him get back on his bike and hear him say he wished he could drive and longed for the day ...

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:19 PM
The 7 feasts of Israel have thus all been fulfilled by the 1st Advent. All of these things that were given to Israel in anticipation of Messiah's arrival are now pictured and remembered by us in the Lord's Table. The shadow of these things was still a mystery, which has been given light by the cross.


Hi Mograce
I wish i had your gentleness. Its a blessing you should cherish. You said the 7 feasts have been fulfilled. Does that mean you believe we need not keep them anymore?

1 Cor. 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Zech. 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And why reinstate the feast days during the 1000 yr period of rest?

Mograce2U
Sep 22nd 2007, 07:37 PM
Hi Mograce
I wish i had your gentleness. Its a blessing you should cherish. You said the 7 feasts have been fulfilled. Does that mean you believe we need not keep them anymore?

1 Cor. 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

This was the agape love feast - their coming together at the Lord's table. Notice the language used draws upon the Passover instructions.

Zech. 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What was dwelling in booths in the wilderness typifying if not the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit when God would dwell with His people? If you have been born again, you are keeping this feast.

And why reinstate the feast days during the 1000 yr period of rest?I don't see a future 1000 years coming because I believe we are in that time now. When the Lord returns in all His glory, we will be glorified like Him - which is when the eternal kingdom will be present in the earth when it too is restored to perfection.

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 08:26 PM
I don't see a future 1000 years coming because I believe we are in that time now. When the Lord returns in all His glory, we will be glorified like Him - which is when the eternal kingdom will be present in the earth when it too is restored to perfection.

I can honestly say, ive never heard that one before. But wouldnt it be great if were to start soon. So you dont think the Lord returns to set up His kingdom or do you think he has already returned?

The feast was the feast of unlevened bread which follows the passover. I looked all over the scriptures for some agape love feast and couldnt find one.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 08:41 PM
Shalom VR,

Excuse me, but if you have a right to YOUR opinion and are able to post it, so does everyone else have a right to post theirs. No one need be a Moderator to request the topic return to the OP. If you have a problem with my posts, you are free to ignore them. Why don't you exercise that freedom?

And like I told you, I believe this entire thread has been on topic. If you do not agree, that is fine. Just don't expect others to drop what they're saying just because you don't believe it's on topic. I believe it is, and I will continue to post my opinions regardless of whether or not you approve.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 08:45 PM
I have no idea how anything you said or are trying to say has anything to do with the sabbath day or any of the 10 commandments for that matter. Your talking in circles. Why should i want to prove it was God who took the life of Ananias and Sapphia? What in the wide wide world of sports would that prove. Although i doubt it was satan who killed them. he kinda likes those who lie.

You are making the argument that we are still under law, are you not? Therefore, it has everything to do with the Sabbath day. If we are still under law, which you are claiming, why do we not receive judgment the same as those of the Old Testament?

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 08:46 PM
I don't see a future 1000 years coming because I believe we are in that time now. When the Lord returns in all His glory, we will be glorified like Him - which is when the eternal kingdom will be present in the earth when it too is restored to perfection.

I agree, Mo. :thumbsup:

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:10 PM
You are making the argument that we are still under law, are you not? Therefore, it has everything to do with the Sabbath day. If we are still under law, which you are claiming, why do we not receive judgment the same as those of the Old Testament?

I posted scripture from new testament proving you wrong and you came back with, now i must prove that it was God who smote them. So who do you think smote those 2? Do ya think they died of natural causes?

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:14 PM
I posted scripture from new testament proving you wrong and you came back with, now i must prove that it was God who smote them. So who do you think smote those 2? Do ya think they died of natural causes?

Again, how many people do you see dropping dead today for telling a lie? I don't see any.

Let me also list something else for you . . .



Deuteronomy 27:11-26
And Moses commanded the people on the same day, saying, “These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin; and these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali. “And the Levites shall speak with a loud voice and say to all the men of Israel: ‘Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’
“And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who treats his father or his mother with contempt.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who moves his neighbor’s landmark.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who makes the blind to wander off the road.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who perverts the justice due the stranger, the fatherless, and widow.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s bed.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who lies with any kind of animal.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who lies with his mother-in-law.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who attacks his neighbor secretly.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’
“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’”


What happened to all these laws? How about the other curses in chapter 28? What about the laws that say we must stone to death those who are caught in adultery? Why do we observe some laws and not the rest?

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:18 PM
I posted scripture from new testament proving you wrong and you came back with, now i must prove that it was God who smote them. So who do you think smote those 2? Do ya think they died of natural causes?

I wonder, Dandy . . .

Is it God that judged Ananias and Sapphira or was it Peter? In 1 Corinthians 5, did God judge the immoral brother or was it Paul?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:25 PM
I wonder, Dandy . . .

Is it God that judged Ananias and Sapphira or was it Peter? In 1 Corinthians 5, did God judge the immoral brother or was it Paul?

Do you think Peter stabbed them?

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:27 PM
Do you think Peter stabbed them?

No, I think Peter judged them just like I know Paul judged the immoral brother . . .



1 Corinthians 5:1-8
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


It is the churches responsibility to judge and judge righteously.

VerticalReality
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:28 PM
But what do you think, Dandy? What about the laws I listed above? What happened to those?

Dandylionheart
Sep 22nd 2007, 10:41 PM
But what do you think, Dandy? What about the laws I listed above? What happened to those?

Ok. Ill go along with this misdirection of the topic for a while.There sure is a lot a cursed be's there. Took a quick look at them. You might think twice before breaking them. Most of them were quite disgusting. I believe they are to be kept and not broken. In fact most of them can put under the 10 commandments.

Did i fall in your trap?

VerticalReality
Sep 23rd 2007, 12:54 AM
Ok. Ill go along with this misdirection of the topic for a while.There sure is a lot a cursed be's there. Took a quick look at them. You might think twice before breaking them. Most of them were quite disgusting. I believe they are to be kept and not broken. In fact most of them can put under the 10 commandments.

Did i fall in your trap?

I agree with you that the things listed there are pretty bad. However, what if I treat my mother or father with contempt? Am I then going to be cursed?

How about the law that says if two folks are caught in adultery they should both be put to death?



Deuteronomy 22:22
“If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die—the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:11 AM
I agree with you that the things listed there are pretty bad. However, what if I treat my mother or father with contempt? Am I then going to be cursed?

How about the law that says if two folks are caught in adultery they should both be put to death?

Point being if one is dogmatic about keeping the Sabbath as described in the old testament then one should also adhere to all the other laws and commandments there. IMO, truth is most Christians that keep the old Sabbath pick and choose what parts of the law they feel needs to be kept. Usually it's the Sabbath, food laws and the various feasts while most of the rest is ignored.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:29 AM
Point being if one is dogmatic about keeping the Sabbath as described in the old testament then one should also adhere to all the other laws and commandments there. IMO, truth is most Christians that keep the old Sabbath pick and choose what parts of the law they feel needs to be kept. Usually it's the Sabbath, food laws and the various feasts while most of the rest is ignored.

Shalom Naphal,

The 7th-day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosaic Law, so just because one keeps the Sabbath does not mean they are "under the Law" or need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.

Also, Believers in Messiah adhere to practices that apply to us today. Not all of the Laws do, such as sacrificing. It's not "picking and choosing" anything, it's correct Biblical exegesis to determine what is applicable and beneficial for the Believer in Messiah today. For our family, it is Sabbath and ALL the Feasts of the Bible as well as Biblical Kosher.

These are wonderful Biblical practices if one choose to partake of them and the Scriptures say in Romans 14 that other Believers should not be judging those who celebrate these days or abstain from certain foods.

VerticalReality
Sep 23rd 2007, 03:00 AM
The 7th-day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosaic Law, so just because one keeps the Sabbath does not mean they are "under the Law" or need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.

How do you know how to "keep the Sabbath"?

As Matt14 asked you earlier, where do you find your direction for what needs to be done in order to keep the Sabbath day?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:58 AM
Shalom Naphal,

The 7th-day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosaic Law, so just because one keeps the Sabbath does not mean they are "under the Law" or need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.

Yeah but the command to keep the Sabbath didn't come until Mosaic law so keeping the Sabbath and keeping the food laws and the feasts etc is keeping part of the law but not all of it if that's all that is kept. I'm just trying to show you what Christians think when they hear of people that keep selected parts of the law but not the rest. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.



Also, Believers in Messiah adhere to practices that apply to us today. Not all of the Laws do, such as sacrificing. It's not "picking and choosing" anything, it's correct Biblical exegesis to determine what is applicable and beneficial for the Believer in Messiah today. For our family, it is Sabbath and ALL the Feasts of the Bible as well as Biblical Kosher.

But why keep only those and not more? What do you use scripturally to keep those and no others?

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 06:03 AM
How do you know how to "keep the Sabbath"?

As Matt14 asked you earlier, where do you find your direction for what needs to be done in order to keep the Sabbath day?

Exactly. From the discussions I've had with various forms of "Sabbath keepers" I have learned that they pretty much do what they want to on the Sabbath with no strict regard to the actual regulations concerning the old Sabbath. They would kindle fire and work etc if they felt they needed to which wasn't allowed on the Sabbath so it is confusing how some actually think they are keeping it in the first place. They have explained to me that it is more about keeping an old tradition alive rather than obeying all of the rules to the letter but when I suggest that isn't really keeping the Sabbath they get frustrated. IMO if one truly wants to keep it they should keep it fully and completely according to all of the written regulations.

Firstfruits
Sep 23rd 2007, 10:55 AM
Shalom Naphal,

The 7th-day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosaic Law, so just because one keeps the Sabbath does not mean they are "under the Law" or need to keep the whole Mosaic Law.

These are wonderful Biblical practices if one choose to partake of them and the Scriptures say in Romans 14 that other Believers should not be judging those who celebrate these days or abstain from certain foods.

If the 7th day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosic law, then there was no requirement from God for Israel to keep it. The requirement was not given until Mount Sinai with all the regulations of how God required it to be kept.

So to apply what must be done on the Sabbath, can only be according to the law of Moses.

Do you agree?

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:11 PM
How do you know how to "keep the Sabbath"?

Shalom VR,

The same way you know how to honor G-d when you go to church.


As Matt14 asked you earlier, where do you find your direction for what needs to be done in order to keep the Sabbath day?

Where do you find your "direction for what needs to be done" for having a church service.

Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:16 PM
If the 7th day Sabbath pre-dates the Mosic law, then there was no requirement from God for Israel to keep it. The requirement was not given until Mount Sinai with all the regulations of how God required it to be kept.

FF,
Redundant.
We've been over and over and over this. It's been asked and answered and now is a Straw Man.

The word "requirement" is not anything I have ever said, nor is it my position.


So to apply what must be done on the Sabbath, can only be according to the law of Moses.WRONG. Wrong foundation, wrong assumption. You obviously have not read even one of my posts.


Do you agree?Of course not, as I said, the "requirement" argument is a Straw Man.
You've said it over and over and it's been dealt with from my perspective.

As I have responded repeatedly, there is total FREEDOM for the Believer in Messiah to celebrate the Sabbath according to the Scriptures and it is WRONG for other Believers to judge or criticize them for it. Romans 14.
You should be concerned about that.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:21 PM
Exactly. From the discussions I've had with various forms of "Sabbath keepers"

Shalom Naphal,
You should know better that to sling labels around that like that are not only erroneous but inflammatory to some. You being a Jew should know that. Is that perhaps that why you did it?

Anyway, for the record, I am not a "Sabbath-Keeper", I am a born-again child of King Jesus and seek to serve Him with my whole life and as He leads me, whether YOU or any man approves.

Your opinion is just that - your opinion.

But, like bellybuttons, everyone has an opinion. However, that's not what we're here for, to discuss your opinions.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:25 PM
Shalom Naphal,
You should know better that to sling labels around that like that are not only erroneous but inflammatory to some. You being a Jew should know that. Is that perhaps that why you did it?

Don't assume negative things. The term "Sabbath keeper" is very commonly used by those that keep the Sabbath. There is nothing inflammatory about it.




Anyway, for the record, I am not a "Sabbath-Keeper", I am a born-again child of King Jesus and seek to serve Him with my whole life and as He leads me, whether YOU or any man approves.

Your opinion is just that - your opinion.

But, like bellybuttons, everyone has an opinion. However, that's not what we're here for, to discuss your opinions.



Everyone has a right to post their opinions in relation to this topic. I wish you had spent time answering my post rather than harassing me about it. You are very verbally abusive towards others in your posts.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:30 PM
Yeah but the command to keep the Sabbath didn't come until Mosaic law so keeping the Sabbath and keeping the food laws and the feasts etc is keeping part of the law but not all of it if that's all that is kept. I'm just trying to show you what Christians think when they hear of people that keep selected parts of the law but not the rest. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Shalom Naphal,

Why should what PEOPLE THINK have any bearing on anything? That's not the Scriptures say and I'm taking the Word over man's opinion.

Whom do we serve? People? No. G-d.
Whom do we do anything for? People? No. G-d.
This is yet another Straw Man argument - other people's opinions. Sorry, but they don't matter when examining the Scriptures and deciding how to walk with Yeshua.

THIS is the impetus for anything I do, not people's opinions.
THIS is Biblical truth and should be followed, not man's opinions:

Romans 14:
6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Colossians 3:
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
You who argue against Christians observing the Sabbath need to be more concerned with this, rather than what some Christians think:

Romans 14:
3 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesusthat nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat,you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.

16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:34 PM
Don't assume negative things. The term "Sabbath keeper" is very commonly used by those that keep the Sabbath. There is nothing inflammatory about it.

Shalom Naphal,

I am not a Sabbath-Keeper and labels can be inflammatory. Just as you want your opinions accepted, please understand that labels can be quite offensive. We should just stick to the topic, not label people.


Everyone has a right to post their opinions in relation to this topic. I wish you had spent time answering my post rather than harassing me about it. No one is "harrassing you" about anything. We are having a disagreement discussion. I'm explaining that opinions do not address the Scriptures. Everyone has their opinions, and everyone has a right to post theirs, but we're not talking about our opinions, we're talking about the Scriptures. And posting what some people (not in this thread) do takes away from the real issues of this thread.

I am sorry that I offended you by my post, that was not my intention. Please accept my apology and forgive me.

VerticalReality
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:35 PM
The same way you know how to honor G-d when you go to church.

The New Testament is filled with examples of how believers gathered to worship the Lord. It is filled with direction to give Him praise and lift our prayers to Him in spirit and in truth. I find not one single example outside of the law of Moses that gives instruction of what one must do in order to "keep the Sabbath".


Where do you find your "direction for what needs to be done" for having a church service.

All throughout the New Testament.


Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy.

But again, how do you do so?

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:45 PM
The New Testament is filled with examples of how believers gathered to worship the Lord. It is filled with direction to give Him praise and lift our prayers to Him in spirit and in truth. I find not one single example outside of the law of Moses that gives instruction of what one must do in order to "keep the Sabbath".

Shalom VR,

As I have answered repeatedly, what I do is to honor the L-rd. I am not UNDER the Law of Moses, however, I don't throw it in the trash either. There are wonderful things to be learned by reading the WHOLE BIBLE, all of G-d's Word and not disregard part of it.

We (our family) follow the Scriptural examples and the leading of the Holy Spirit in what we do and how we do it.

I am on my way to church, so I must answer this later, but the short answer is:
Biblical example (Old and New)
Leading of the Holy Spirit

And these:
Romans 14:
6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord...


Colossians 3
17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 01:47 PM
Shalom,

Sorry y'all, but I must leave now to attend church. I'm not avoiding or evading your questions, but they will have to wait until later.

Shalom!!

Vickilynn
Sep 23rd 2007, 05:14 PM
But why keep only those and not more?

Shalom Naphal,

Because, as has been explained umpteen times, our family does not practice what we do because we are UNDER the Law. We do it by the leading of the L-rd, for deeper relationship with Yeshua and understanding of His Word. We do it to celebrate HIM and all He is and in some of the ways that HE lived. Jesus did celebrate the Sabbath. We do as well to honor Him.


What do you use scripturally to keep those and no others?
Again, this is a Straw Man because we do not "keep" the Law. We celebrate Yeshua by our Scriptural observances. There is a big difference in that and "keeping the Law."

Things such as sacrificing animals in the Temple no longer apply to us today, so it is not even worth asking why we don't do that any longer.

However, the Sabbath day was set aside at Creation, BEFORE THE LAW. G-d the Father rested from His works on the 7th day, and made the day holy. That is G-d's Word and that has never changed. It is not Law, it is simply G-d's Word to us. And according to the Word of G-d in the New Covenant;

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:29 PM
I am sorry that I offended you by my post, that was not my intention. Please accept my apology and forgive me.

Certainly. Just know that most of us are also not trying to judge you but understand you but that's hard if you are constantly defensive. I don't believe it's wrong for a Christian to keep Kosher or keep the Sabbath anyway they want but I do reserve the right to decide for myself whether is is correct or not for me.

Naphal
Sep 23rd 2007, 09:39 PM
Again, this is a Straw Man because we do not "keep" the Law.

Not everything can be labeled as "straw man".



Things such as sacrificing animals in the Temple no longer apply to us today, so it is not even worth asking why we don't do that any longer.

This is the point! The old testament regulations concerning the Sabbath also do not apply today so I feel the same if I saw Christians sacrificing animals just the same as I do when I hear of them keeping *some* of the regulations about the Sabbath.

My last question is do you keep the Sabbath according to all the regulations and rules set forth in the OT or do you adhere to some of them, bend some, and disregard other rules as not relevant?

I just want to understand. I know many people who keep the Sabbath but they only keep some of the rules about it. So, I want to know if you are like them or if you are like traditional Jews that keep the Sabbath exactly as it is laid out in the OT.






However, the Sabbath day was set aside at Creation, BEFORE THE LAW. G-d the Father rested from His works on the 7th day, and made the day holy. That is G-d's Word and that has never changed. It is not Law, it is simply G-d's Word to us.

Did God rest on the next Saturday? Or did he rest only on that one?

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 02:12 AM
Not everything can be labeled as "straw man".

Shalom Naphal,

When you bring in things that have no bearing on the discussion, they are Straw Man arguments.



This is the point! The old testament regulations concerning the Sabbath also do not apply today...I'll stop you right here and ask you if you are truly even reading my posts?
If so, you are wrongly using "regulations."

So, are you even reading them? If so, you should know by now that there are NO "regulations" that I am following by observing the Sabbath. We really need to get past this as it is redundant.

The rest of your argument is based on that faulty reasoning.

As I said, the Sabbath STILL applies today because it is NOT under the Law.
The Sabbath day was established BEFORE the Law.
I am not "under the Law", nor do I observe the Sabbath under the Law.


My last question is do you keep the Sabbath according to all the regulations and rules set forth in the OT or do you adhere to some of them, bend some, and disregard other rules as not relevant?WOW, you really don't read my posts at all do you? :hmm:

PLEASE Naphal, just scroll back to post #233, where you asked me these SAME questions and I answered them for the millionth time. It really is discouraging to answer the same question about the Law over and over and then have you ask again.

Also, please read my post #219. I answered the same thing about not being under the Law.

Also, please read my post #225 when I answered Firstfruits who asked me the same thing.

I'll go back and get the list of all the posts where I answered the same question over and over if you like. Before you accuse me of being sarcastic, I'm not. I'm being sincere.

In a discussion when a question is answered and answered and answered, it's time to move on, not ask the same question repeatedly when it's been answered.


I just want to understand. I know many people who keep the Sabbath but they only keep some of the rules about it.I cannot speak for people you know Naphal. I can only speak for myself and my family. As I have said repeatedly, we honor the L-rd Yeshua in the Sabbath. We keep no "rules." We do what we do to glorify the L-rd and to honor the Sabbath, as the Word says.


So, I want to know if you are like them or if you are like traditional Jews that keep the Sabbath exactly as it is laid out in the OT.Neither. As I have explained again and again and again.



Did God rest on the next Saturday? Or did he rest only on that one?Every Saturday. The 7th day became the Sabbath, the day of rest. That comes every 7th day. IT still comes every Saturday and it is still the Sabbath, it has never been rescinded or changed. Jesus observed it.

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 02:19 AM
Certainly.

Shalom Naphal,
Thank you.


Just know that most of us are also not trying to judge you but understand you...

Actually, that's not really true. When one Believer tells another that celebrating the Sabbath is wrong, sin, lack of faith, under the Law, whatever, that is judging and according to the Scriptures, it is wrong to do.


but that's hard if you are constantly defensive.

You misunderstand me. I am not defensive. I have nothing to defend. I am simply responding to the posts and refuting the judging and misrepresentation of what I'm doing. As I said, I cannot speak for what others do, but to tell me constantly that what I'm doing is because I am following the Law of Moses is absolutely wrong.


I don't believe it's wrong for a Christian to keep Kosher or keep the Sabbath anyway they want

Good! You need to give other Believers that grace.


but I do reserve the right to decide for myself whether is is correct or not for me.

I have never said you didn't have that right. :hmm: Where you got that I ever said anything different is not from me or any of my posts.

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 03:16 AM
So basically what you are saying is that you observe the Sabbath but you don't observe it by any of the directions given under the law of Moses. Is that correct? Since there is no direction outside of the law of Moses that instructs anyone on how to keep the Sabbath, I don't really understand how you can know what to do in order to keep the Sabbath. Does the Holy Spirit just inform you as you go on how to keep it or what?

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 03:26 AM
So basically what you are saying is that you observe the Sabbath but you don't observe it by any of the directions given under the law of Moses.

Shalom VR,

What I am saying is that I do not "keep" the Sabbath as under the Law.

What we do, we do by Biblical example and those things that symbolize Jesus and honor Him. Such as lighting the Sabbath candles, blowing the shofar, saying the blessing over the wine, over the Challah bread, over the meal. The Father blesses his wife and children. We remember the L-rd's Supper. We sing songs, we pray, we talk about what each thing means and how Yeshua is glorified in it. Even the youngest child knows what these things mean. We set aside the time to turn off the distractions of our every day lives and set aside the time to focus more on our worship of the L-rd. These are just some of the things we do.


Does that answer any of your questions?

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 03:40 AM
Shalom VR,

What I am saying is that I do not "keep" the Sabbath as under the Law.

What we do, we do by Biblical example and those things that symbolize Jesus and honor Him. Such as lighting the Sabbath candles, blowing the shofar, saying the blessing over the wine, over the Challah bread, over the meal. The Father blesses his wife and children. We remember the L-rd's Supper. We sing songs, we pray, we talk about what each thing means and how Yeshua is glorified in it. Even the youngest child knows what these things mean. We set aside the time to turn off the distractions of our every day lives and set aside the time to focus more on our worship of the L-rd. These are just some of the things we do.


Does that answer any of your questions?

Yes, it answers my questions. However, going by that description every believer I know observes the Sabbath. They just don't observe it from Friday night to Saturday night. I mean, if it is not about regulation, and it's not really about the strict direction given under the law of Moses, when we worship in spirit and truth it pretty much accomplishes the true meaning of the Sabbath rest. Does it not?

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 03:47 AM
Yes, it answers my questions. However, going by that description every believer I know observes the Sabbath. They just don't observe it from Friday night to Saturday night. I mean, if it is not about regulation, and it's not really about the strict direction given under the law of Moses, when we worship in spirit and truth it pretty much accomplishes the true meaning of the Sabbath rest. Does it not?

Shalom,
No, the Sabbath is the 7th-day. According to Genesis 2, given at Creation.
That doesn't mean worshiping and doing wonderful things cannot happen on other days, but the Sabbath, 7th-day, was set aside by G-d and it remains set aside by G-d since He never changed it.

Personally, we worship and glorify and meet with saints and study the Word and witness and fellowship several days a week! But, none of that is honoring the Sabbath by resting and focusing. If it's done on another day, it's great, but it's not the Sabbath since the 7th-day is the Sabbath.

Understand what I'm getting at?

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 04:30 AM
Shalom VR,

I had a thought of better explaining what I said in my last post.

Let me ask you, do you celebrate any religious holiday?
Christmas? Easter?

So, let's Resurrection Day (some call it Easter, but I'm not talking bunnies and eggs). This is a day that we celebrate the Risen Savior. We sing special songs, sometimes we have a Sunrise service, the sermon is usually about the fact that Jesus was resurrected.

Now, we, as Christians celebrate the FACT that Jesus was resurrected and is now alive, we do this EVERY DAY, but not every day is Resurrection Day.

What about Palm Sunday?

The same with Good Friday, if you celebrate it. You celebrate and observe what HAPPENED on those days and you can do it any day, but ONLY Palm Sunday is the day it is recognized and set aside.

Another example for me is Passover. (The Book of Exodus). While I rejoice in all that happened during Passover and how Yeshua is our Sacrificed Lamb and we are told to keep the Passover with Yeshua. I celebrate what happened at Passover every day, but ON Passover, I recognize the day and do SPECIAL things on Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread that I don't do on other days, although I celebrate what happened on the Passover every day.

I hope that explains why the Sabbath is not every day, but only the 7th day, but we can glorify Jesus and rest in Him every day and it is special on the 7th day.

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 04:39 AM
Shalom VR,

I had a thought of better explaining what I said in my last post.

Let me ask you, do you celebrate any religious holiday?
Christmas? Easter?

So, let's Resurrection Day (some call it Easter, but I'm not talking bunnies and eggs). This is a day that we celebrate the Risen Savior. We sing special songs, sometimes we have a Sunrise service, the sermon is usually about the fact that Jesus was resurrected.

Now, we, as Christians celebrate the FACT that Jesus was resurrected and is now alive, we do this EVERY DAY, but not every day is Resurrection Day.

What about Palm Sunday?

The same with Good Friday, if you celebrate it. You celebrate and observe what HAPPENED on those days and you can do it any day, but ONLY Palm Sunday is the day it is recognized and set aside.

Another example for me is Passover. (The Book of Exodus). While I rejoice in all that happened during Passover and how Yeshua is our Sacrificed Lamb and we are told to keep the Passover with Yeshua. I celebrate what happened at Passover every day, but ON Passover, I recognize the day and do SPECIAL things on Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread that I don't do on other days, although I celebrate what happened on the Passover every day.

I hope that explains why the Sabbath is not every day, but only the 7th day, but we can glorify Jesus and rest in Him every day and it is special on the 7th day.

I don't really participate in holidays for worship purposes. I worship the Lord everyday, and another day set aside isn't really necessary for me. My family and I participate in holiday events like exchanging presents and so forth because mainly it's just fun to do, but we don't really observe those days above any other for worship purposes.

Naphal
Sep 24th 2007, 05:47 AM
As I have said repeatedly, we honor the L-rd Yeshua in the Sabbath. We keep no "rules."



Ok, that answers my question. Thank you.

I also keep no old testament "rules" concerning the Sabbath, which includes it being on only one day a week or only one certain day. Now, that's how I do it and how a large portion of Christians view the Sabbath in new testament terms but as I said, you have every right to keep the Sabbath in whatever manner you feel is right. Some might condemn you for lighting candles on the Sabbath but I think that would be wrong.




Quote:
So, I want to know if you are like them or if you are like traditional Jews that keep the Sabbath exactly as it is laid out in the OT.
Neither. As I have explained again and again and again.


Again, thank you.







Quote:
Did God rest on the next Saturday? Or did he rest only on that one?
Every Saturday.


I know that God kept the first Sabbath in the book of Genesis. Is there any thing else written in Genesis that shows him not working on the Sabbath? It appears to be a one time event, then only commanded that man should rest every Saturday in the time of Moses.




IT still comes every Saturday and it is still the Sabbath, it has never been rescinded or changed. Jesus observed it.

Well, you know I disagree completely about that but no need to run down that path again :)

VerticalReality
Sep 24th 2007, 01:19 PM
Another point about this as well is that we are not the same as those of the Old Testament that observed the Sabbath or the laws. The temple was a shadow of the true reality that would come. People under the Old Covenant went to the temple on the Sabbath day and they did all their observances and it was their time to lay aside all their weekly works and be in the temple where the presence of God was. Now the presence of God is no longer in some temple built with hands. The presence of God is now with every born again believer, and we no longer need to set aside a specific day in order to go somewhere and be where God is. God is with us right now and He will never leave us. We can walk in the spirit and be one with Him continually.

And as another person pointed out in this thread, we are the priests under the New Covenant, and our work doesn't end just because it's Saturday or any other day.

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 02:31 PM
Another point about this as well is that we are not the same as those of the Old Testament that observed the Sabbath or the laws. The temple was a shadow of the true reality that would come. People under the Old Covenant went to the temple on the Sabbath day and they did all their observances and it was their time to lay aside all their weekly works and be in the temple where the presence of God was. Now the presence of God is no longer in some temple built with hands. The presence of God is now with every born again believer, and we no longer need to set aside a specific day in order to go somewhere and be where God is. God is with us right now and He will never leave us. We can walk in the spirit and be one with Him continually.

And as another person pointed out in this thread, we are the priests under the New Covenant, and our work doesn't end just because it's Saturday or any other day.I have also been looking at whether Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath according to law or not by preaching and teaching and healing on this day which pictures God's rest in creation. It occurs to me that God was no longer resting, but continuing His work of redemption thru the 2 witnesses which testified of Jesus - His word and His works. (John 5:31+) Then we see the Holy Spirit operative thru the sign gifts given the apostles.

So to me this pictures that the regenerated man - the new creature in Christ reconciled to God, now works in concert with the Lord, regardless of earthly times. Much like Adam walked with God in the Garden. This was Adam's rest in God's good creation - a rest in which he worked with God before the curse. The Sabbath given to man was in response to this curse upon creation and the penalty for Adam's sin. Has not that penalty been taken away for those in Christ who are not under any curse? Whereas now we can even rejoice in the Spirit in trials and tribulation?

Jesus said that to do good on the Sabbath superceded Moses' law concerning circumcision - which law was kept even if the 8th day fell on a Sabbath. This proves either one of two things: The law of Moses was greater than the Sabbath law or the law of Christ was greater than both. It seems to me the latter is to be our understanding.

The other thing that came up in another thread was fasting on Yom Kippur which fell on a Sabbath this year. And I am wondering why a Christian would afflict his soul when he has the atonement already?

Jesusinmyheart
Sep 24th 2007, 03:38 PM
The other thing that came up in another thread was fasting on Yom Kippur which fell on a Sabbath this year. And I am wondering why a Christian would afflict his soul when he has the atonement already?

Simply because it statets here:

Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Lev 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Lev 23:23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Lev 23:25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Forever wouldn't be forever if it got done away with someday would it now ?

Yes, Yeshua atoned for us, but do you not think you can lose your election? Do you not think God will open His books and determine whether you are worthy to be written in the book of life for another year ?

2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Why on earth would we have to make our election sure if we don't have nothing to worry about (OSAS)....????

Do you think God doesn't make any sort of judgment throughout our time on earth, or do you think He wants to reserve all that work for the last day ?
We all take stock and inventory of our belongings, and what's good and what's gone bad, and what is still good to keep, and what needs to be tossed.

We also should (ideally) take stock of our own behavior from time to time and look back to see where we came from and where we are going, and if we're still on the right path. It's amazingly easy to stray.... and do you really think God does not likewise reflect on what we have accomplished in one year ?
I know i do with my kids, i see what they did, how they grew, etc....

Anyway, i'm not going to debate this with you at all, i'm just tossing out my two cents on why and how.....

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Sep 24th 2007, 04:45 PM
Hi Tanja, #247 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1391404&postcount=247)
Here is what Peter said about how this election assurance was to be found - I didn't see fasting mentioned:

(2 Pet 1:4-9 KJV) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. {5} And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; {6} And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; {7} And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. {8} For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {9} But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.It would seem it is not sin we must search out but whether or not there is evidence of this FRUIT.

Vickilynn
Sep 24th 2007, 04:46 PM
I don't really participate in holidays for worship purposes. I worship the Lord everyday, and another day set aside isn't really necessary for me. My family and I participate in holiday events like exchanging presents and so forth because mainly it's just fun to do, but we don't really observe those days above any other for worship purposes.

Shalom VR,

Ahhhh, that explains why you are having a hard time understanding the 7th day Sabbath.

Let me state (not as a criticism, but an observation), that your views on Christian holidays are not the "norm."

Most Christians that I have met and fellowshipped with over the past 30 years DO celebrate the birth of Messiah (Christmas), the Resurrection of Messiah (Easter), Pentecost, Good Friday and sometimes others.

They enjoy Jesus and worship Him and celebrate or commemorate events in His life or ministry according to the Scriptures. I see nothing wrong with that.

And, that is why I was explaining 7th day Sabbath in the same way as a Christian celebrates Messiah's Resurrection Day, with praise, worship and honor, as they do every day, but MORESO on those "special" days.

I think others that do celebrate and commemorate will understand, even if you don't because you say you do not acknowledge special days.

As I've said, I worship, glorify and honor Yeshua every day and every day find my rest in Him, but the special day, set aside by G-d the Father, ios the 7th day, Friday at sundown to Saturday at Sundown.

Perhaps other will get a better understanding now.

Friend of I AM
Sep 24th 2007, 04:49 PM
Shalom VR,

Ahhhh, that explains why you are having a hard time understanding the 7th day Sabbath.

Let ms state (not as a criticism, but an observation), that your views on Christian holidays are not the "norm."

Most Christians that I have met and fellowshipped with over the past 30 years DO celebrate the birth of Messiah (Christmas), the Resurrection of Messiah (Easter), Pentecost, Good Friday and sometimes others.

They enjoy Jesus and worship Him and celebrate or commemorate events in His life or ministry according to the Scriptures. I see nothing wrong with that.

And, that is why I was explaining 7th day Sabbath in the same way as a Christian celebrates Messiah's Resurrection Day, with praise, worship and honor, as they do every day, but MORESO on those "special" days.

I think others that do celebrate and commemorate will understand, even if you don't because you say you do not acknowledge special days.

As I've said, I worship, glorify and honor Yeshua every day and every day find my rest in Him, but the special day, set aside by G-d the Father, ios the 7th day, Friday at sundown to Saturday at Sundown.

Perhaps other will get a better understanding now.

Who is the Christ Vicki? Was He a man or was He God?