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Matt14
Sep 25th 2007, 11:22 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

walked
Sep 26th 2007, 12:13 AM
Unpolluted doctrine is important, most modern doctrines in my opinion are polluted.
Unpolluted doctrine is in the bible only and wont be found unpolluted or pure in any denominational creeds of faith.

I look to Gods word for revealed doctrine to live under or in the light of and, not to any mans revealed doctrine.

God bless you.

anglican-cat
Sep 26th 2007, 12:19 AM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!
Doctrine and Love are both very important. This a reason I feel Churches that are Creedal and Biblical are vital, but it is important to express love to God and others, among other things my Church has a soup kitchen. Grace and Peace.

The Parson
Sep 26th 2007, 01:14 AM
Doctrine means teaching. But not just any ole teaching. Specific teaching...

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 01:33 AM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

No. I do not believe perfect doctrine defines a Christian. Being a Christian is not about being a scholar; it is about following Jesus and producing fruit for him. You could be borderline retarded and be more of a Christian than a genius.

That is why I don't think we should let minor debates split the church into denominations; it is fruitless. Focus on the similarities, not the differences, in my opinion.

Mograce2U
Sep 26th 2007, 04:09 AM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!Well first you must define "love". What love can there be apart from truth? Truth is what guides us in the love we are to express. Without truth you are merely doing what seems right in your own eyes. Sound doctrine will guide you, whereas love alone (as the world understands it) has no basis or discipline to follow. Scriptural love seeks to do what is best whether the recipient thinks so or not. It is bold and proactive to do real good for its benificiary. It is not necessarily reciprocated in kind or even acknowleged, however. Ex: True love disciplines a child. It also tells the truth when one is in error (sin). It is willing to speak up when the emperor has no clothes and tell him he has been deceived. What love can do this that is not founded upon sound doctrine first? Only the love of God that refuses to leave us like He first found us!

Tanya~
Sep 26th 2007, 04:33 AM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

Unfortunately, this is a sign of the times.

2 Tim 4:1-5
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The right doctrine is absolutely essential.

2 John 9-11
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine , do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

And we are charged to earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints:

Jude 3-4
Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV


I'm concerned whenever someone says doctrine is not important. Sometimes it is a guise for false teaching.


In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

If we do not have the correct doctrine, then we don't know the truth. And if we don't know the truth, then the whole thing is a farce and completely worthless.

John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free."

Sold Out
Sep 26th 2007, 12:58 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

Wow...that's incredible....focus on love and not doctrine..?????

"My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6

The NUMBER ONE reason Christians fail in their walk is a lack of knowledge of God's Word. I work with CHRISTIANS who can't even tell me the plan of salvation, or define the trinity, or the deity of Christ. It's a shame!!! Satan has done a wonderful job of deceiving Christians into thinking they can just love their way thru this life with no firm foundation in the scriptures!!!

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." Romans 16:17

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; " Ephesians 4:14

If we don't know doctrine, we will be easily deceived. This is how Satan works! WAKE UP CHRISTIANS!!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" II Tim 4:3

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2007, 01:10 PM
Wow...that's incredible....focus on love and not doctrine..?????

"My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6

The NUMBER ONE reason Christians fail in their walk is a lack of knowledge of God's Word. I work with CHRISTIANS who can't even tell me the plan of salvation, or define the trinity, or the deity of Christ. It's a shame!!! Satan has done a wonderful job of deceiving Christians into thinking they can just love their way thru this life with no firm foundation in the scriptures!!!

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." Romans 16:17

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; " Ephesians 4:14

If we don't know doctrine, we will be easily deceived. This is how Satan works! WAKE UP CHRISTIANS!!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" II Tim 4:3

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9




FANTASTIC post, Sold Out! :pp:pp:pp

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2007, 01:10 PM
Unfortunately, this is a sign of the times.

2 Tim 4:1-5
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The right doctrine is absolutely essential.

2 John 9-11
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine , do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

And we are charged to earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints:

Jude 3-4
Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV


I'm concerned whenever someone says doctrine is not important. Sometimes it is a guise for false teaching.



If we do not have the correct doctrine, then we don't know the truth. And if we don't know the truth, then the whole thing is a farce and completely worthless.

John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free."

Likewise, TanyaP! :pp:pp:pp

SammeyDW
Sep 26th 2007, 01:11 PM
I'm concerned whenever someone says doctrine is not important. Sometimes it is a guise for false teaching.



If we do not have the correct doctrine, then we don't know the truth. And if we don't know the truth, then the whole thing is a farce and completely worthless.

John 8:31-32
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free."

A sibling in Christ said this, "If you have a theory about scripture, and check it against scripture, and it contradicts scripture, then it is not the scripture that is wrong.".

I believe the comment applies to all our thoughts that involve scripture.
Whether it be theories, ways we live our life, doctrine, or something else.

9Marksfan
Sep 26th 2007, 01:12 PM
Well first you must define "love". What love can there be apart from truth? Truth is what guides us in the love we are to express. Without truth you are merely doing what seems right in your own eyes. Sound doctrine will guide you, whereas love alone (as the world understands it) has no basis or discipline to follow. Scriptural love seeks to do what is best whether the recipient thinks so or not. It is bold and proactive to do real good for its benificiary. It is not necessarily reciprocated in kind or even acknowleged, however. Ex: True love disciplines a child. It also tells the truth when one is in error (sin). It is willing to speak up when the emperor has no clothes and tell him he has been deceived. What love can do this that is not founded upon sound doctrine first? Only the love of God that refuses to leave us like He first found us!

And you make it three in a row, Mograce2U! :pp:pp:pp

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 01:12 PM
My point is, there are several denominations that all think they are teaching the "right" doctrine. Obviously there are some simple, unambiguous things we have in common, but not all things are so clear. With that said, I think it is more important we devote our lives to following Jesus, rather than keeping our heads inside a book while the world falls apart around us. Some person in another country that only knows Jesus is the risen Messiah and that his or her job is to follow him on a narrow road and does so accordingly is no better off or worse than a scholar who can read three languages and is an expert on some particular subject.

Knowledge isn't everything; God is.

Don't get me wrong, I feel that by studying the Scriptures I connect with God, but I also realize that the things I think I know are "right" may not actually be right. There are other denominations (including the mainstream ones) that disagree with some of the things I have come to believe through my own, personal studies. That shouldn't stop us from being "one in Christ," should it? Of course not.

If you put too much of an emphasis on doctrine and knowledge, you will forget what is more important. Trust me, I know. About two years ago I thought I was "right" for being a Universalist and everyone else was "wrong" for not being a Universalist, and because of that, I lost focus on the fact that the other people I looked down on for disagreeing with me were also Christians, followers of the Messiah. I also changed my opinion and my opinion may change again. Even now I struggle with looking down on others who disagree with things that to me appear obvious; I have been praying that God will help me with that.

I wish denominations could focus more on their similarities than their differences is my main point.

Sold Out
Sep 26th 2007, 01:20 PM
[quote=enarchay;1393519] With that said, I think it is more important we devote our lives to following Jesus, rather than keeping our heads inside a book while the world falls apart around us.

How will you know how to follow Jesus without being grounded in the Word? Jesus IS THE WORD




Knowledge isn't everything; God is.


You are right, and in fact, it can cause someone to be prideful, but the biggest problem amongst Christians seems to be a LACK of knowledge, not too much.

Tanya~
Sep 26th 2007, 01:23 PM
My point is, there are several denominations that all think they are teaching the "right" doctrine. Obviously there are some simple, unambiguous things we have in common, but not all things are so clear. With that said, I think it is more important we devote our lives to following Jesus, rather than keeping our heads inside a book while the world falls apart around us. Some person in another country that only knows Jesus is the risen Messiah and that his or her job is to follow him on a narrow road and does so accordingly is better off than a scholar who can read three languages and is an expert on some particular subject but has never helped one single poor person and lived a life different than Jesus'.

Knowledge isn't everything; God is.

You're right that knowledge isn't everything, but how can one know God without the knowledge of God?

Denominations are the result of the church not keeping to what was once for all delivered to the saints. Things are emphasized, or de-emphasized, or added, or subtracted, or rearranged or changed, and that is what gives us all these different denominations. Not sound doctrine.

The problem is making a blanket statement that implies doctrine is less important than love. Where do we get the understanding about the importance of love? It's from sound doctrine. It would be better to say that love is more important among Christians than those things that cause divisions among us. Then I would agree with the statement. But to say that we should emphasize love over doctrine is just another example of straying from the truth, another point of division.

NavyFirefighter
Sep 26th 2007, 01:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine

If a psator/preacher ever ever tries to teach something and tell you something is Biblical, but can not back it up with Scripture, that is not sound doctrine.

Consider this, salvation is not possible without love. Salvation is possible without doctrine, HOWEVER without sound doctrine, a persons walk with God is impeaded by his fleshly nature.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 01:42 PM
If a psator/preacher ever ever tries to teach something and tell you something is Biblical, but can not back it up with Scripture, that is not sound doctrine.


Yes, but do you know how many Christians quote Old Testament texts from the KJV that talk about "hell" completely ignorant of the Hebrew word behind it, sheol?

Sometimes it doesn't come down to quoting the text, but interpreting the text. Many people (i.e. Universalists) think their opinion is backed up by Scripture, and some of them actually make good points, but in the end what it comes down to is not what the texts say, but what each group thinks they say.

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 01:42 PM
Seeing as I'm an unmitigated heretic myself perhaps I shouldn't even post on this thread ;) but I tend to see this in terms of John 4:24 "spirit and truth" that there is an X-axis and Y-axis of "walk and talk"

http://www.mathsisfun.com/graph/images/x-y-axes.gif

One's natural inclination after reading the Gospels is to believe that the spirit/walk/life axis is very much more important than the truth/talk/knowledge axis, as illustrated by the rejection of the "Lord, Lord, we've done wonderful works" Christians, and the "when saw we you naked, hungry" Christians being accepted.

But there should be a correlation - the man who built his house on rock is the man who did well on both axes. The man who built his house on sand, Jesus says, was all talk/doctrine/theory. When the storms of life hit him, he was blown away.

However, caution, compare Rehoboam and Jereboam - Rehoboam was a rotten ruler, a hard man and unfair king - but doctrinally correct. Jereboam was a much nicer man, a kind king, and good ruler - but doctrinally someone who brought back Aaron's golden calf worship. It is Jereboam, son of Nebat, who is condemned far more, despite being the better man.
God bless
Steven

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 01:48 PM
You're right that knowledge isn't everything, but how can one know God without the knowledge of God?

Knowing God is pretty simple. All Christian denominations have that in common: the belief in God.


Denominations are the result of the church not keeping to what was once for all delivered to the saints.

Yes, but what was once delivered to the saints never stayed the same throughout history. Even before the dawn of the second century there were debates going on. Look at Peter, James, and Paul. James was going around trying to circumcise Gentiles, Peter was being hypocritical, and Paul was rebuking them both.

If you compare some of the things we believe now with what was believed, I don't know, about, 1000 years ago, you would probably see a difference. When Constantine, for example, made Christian the religion of Rome, people suddenly stopped calling Isis the "mother of God" and started worshiping Mary as the "mother of God." The date of the birth of Mithras was declared the date of the birth of Christ. So we see throughout history Christianity merging with other religions. So obviously there has never been a point in history when people had "perfect" doctrine.



Things are emphasized, or de-emphasized, or added, or subtracted, or rearranged or changed, and that is what gives us all these different denominations. Not sound doctrine.

Exactly. So it is not really important what the majority believes or what the minatory believe but what we come to believe as individuals through careful study of the Scriptures. But if we come to conclusions (in eschatology, for example) different from our brothers and sisters in Christ, we should still stay "one" with each other and fellowship with each other with the basic beliefs we have in common, such as Jesus being the risen Messiah and the Lord of the world. I can't stand, for example, how most Jehovah's Witnesses cut themselves off from the rest of the Christian community.

Theophilus
Sep 26th 2007, 01:49 PM
http://www.mathsisfun.com/graph/images/x-y-axes.gif


Somewhere, Rene Descartes is smiling...;)

Brother Mark
Sep 26th 2007, 01:54 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

I thought love was doctrine. :D

Moses knew God's ways but Israel only His acts. We need to know how God operates. If we don't, like Israel we will murmur and complain and rebel against God in the desert times.

Now, if doctrine is just some dry theology, it's not much help. But if we can apply it to our lives, then that is doctrine worth studying! As we learn more and more about they ways of God, we learn how to rightly apply his word.

For instance, Cavlinism or Arminianism won't help the single mother of 3 who is wondering how she is going to feed the kids tonight. But learning about the miracle of the 5000 will.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:00 PM
However, caution, compare Rehoboam and Jereboam - Rehoboam was a rotten ruler, a hard man and unfair king - but doctrinally correct. Jereboam was a much nicer man, a kind king, and good ruler - but doctrinally someone who brought back Aaron's golden calf worship. It is Jereboam, son of Nebat, who is condemned far more, despite being the better man.

In contrast, I would like to call to mind the parable of the Good Samaritan: it is the one who is willing to get his hands dirty who is our role model. The ones who did not want to get their clothing dirty for the Temple are the ones who miss those in need along the way.

I think we need a good balance between both doctrine and the fruits of the spirit. The problem is, who exactly defines doctrine? God. However, there are thousands of denominations that would say God is the one who is behind them in their beliefs. So I think we really need to reavulate what "doctrine" means.

For example, Steven, you believe things that are condemned as heretical by many Christians. But what makes their doctrine any better or worse than yours? Both sides of the fence are trying, hopefully, to figure out what the Scriptures are saying to them; but apparently the Scriptures are saying different things.

What do you have to say about the diversity of beliefs among denominations?

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:03 PM
I thought love was doctrine. :D

Moses knew God's ways but Israel only His acts. We need to know how God operates. If we don't, like Israel we will murmur and complain and rebel against God in the desert times.

Now, if doctrine is just some dry theology, it's not much help. But if we can apply it to our lives, then that is doctrine worth studying! As we learn more and more about they ways of God, we learn how to rightly apply his word.

For instance, Cavlinism or Arminianism won't help the single mother of 3 who is wondering how she is going to feed the kids tonight. But learning about the miracle of the 5000 will.

Oh yes! You made some very good points. This is more or less what I've been trying to say but I could not get it to come out coherently.

I think the minor doctrines (and "minor" will differ depending on who you ask) are important to us as individuals, but not important in the grand scheme of things. So in the end, preterism vs. futurism doesn't really matter; salvation by works vs. salvation by faith (i.e. Catholics vs. Protestants) doesn't really matter; Calvinism vs. whatever doesn't really matter; and I would go as far to say that, for example, non-Trinitarianism, as long as it is within the bounds of Christianity and is not some obvious polytheistic belief going beyond the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, vs. Trinitarianism (i.e. Arianism vs. Trinitarianism) doesn't matter that much. It's hard to draw the line as to what is essential to the faith and what is non-essential, that is one of the big problems we face. These debates are important to us as individuals but should not split us apart as being "one in Christ." Jesus said the gates of hades would not prevail over the church, singular, not churches, plural, afterall. But I think there should be a strong emphasis on Jesus as the risen Messiah and Lord of the world, the people of God (the church) and the gospel they proclaim as a light unto the nations both physically (in helping the poor, for example) and spiritually (in bringing people to Jesus, for example) and the resurrection of both the just and unjust. It seems like these beliefs are (or at least should be) central to almost all denominations, but maybe I'm ignorant.

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

Brother Mark
Sep 26th 2007, 02:06 PM
In contrast, I would like to call to mind the parable of the Good Samaritan: it is the one who is willing to get his hands dirty who is our role model. The ones who did not want to get their clothing dirty for the Temple are the ones who miss those in need along the way.

Excellent! A friend of mine likes to say "you live what you believe every day. Everything else is just religious talk." I find that to be true. I can spout off doctrine, but I will only live it if I truly believe it in my heart. This is the difference between living faith and dead faith.

James said we should help our brothers and not just say "be warm and be filled and be on your way".

John68
Sep 26th 2007, 02:08 PM
Just what is this "sound doctrine".:lol: You could take about 20 differnt topics-trinity,sabbath,pre-trib/post-trib,antichrist,end times etc etc...and get many different views. People have been arguing about these same topics for 2000+ years and now we have scholars on message boards that have it all figured out in 2007. I like the comments I read when someone dissagrees with aother- you need to study more,your reading the wrong translation,the Holy Spirit has told me this view is right and yours is wrong! So YES I believe brotherly LOVE is most important! JESUS said - LOVE GOD and LOVE one another as the most important commandments. He did not say bicker amongst yourselfs like the pharisees. Now let the corrections,insults and diggs begin! :hug: :)

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 02:16 PM
Matt,

It is great seeing you man.

That all sounds good when wrapped up in todays ever popular sound bite Christianity but religious speak is dangerous stuff anyway. I think of this passage:

Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by that which every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

The person that says doctrine doesn't matter but love everyone is the person that is being blown around by every wind of doctrine and in the end they will never rightly understand that divine God-like love Scripture speaks of. Doctrine is vital and Scripture makes that clear. Elsewhere in Scripture we see where Paul, writing both Timothy and Titus those letters we call the "pastoral epistles". Here are some things Paul tells them on the importance of doctrine.

1 Timothy 6:3 ¶If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

So here we must follow a doctrine conforming with godliness. In other words as folks have heard me say many time over the years I have been here now... there is NO unity outside of holiness. There can't be and us be right.

Paul tells Titus the importance of the church leader having knowledge of sound doctrine.

Titus 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Not only is he supposed to teach it... he is also supposed to refute teachings that contradict that sound doctrine.

Also Paul exhorts Titus a bit later, telling him what it is that Titus himself must do.

Titus 2:1 But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

Then Paul goes on to speak of things Titus was to teach in teaching sound doctrine. Things that truth be told would be fussed about today as "works based" doctrine. But one should read this and then pay attention to that last verse because it emphasizes the importance of what Paul says.

2 Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.
3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good,
4 that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
6 Likewise urge the young men to be sensible;
7 in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,
8 sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
9 Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 ¶These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

This is sound doctrine and this is vital doctrine. Without this sound doctrine... one cannot possibly know "love."

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:20 PM
Just what is this "sound doctrine".:lol: You could take about 20 differnt topics-trinity,sabbath,pre-trib/post-trib,antichrist,end times etc etc...and get many different views. People have been arguing about these same topics for 2000+ years and now we have scholars on message boards that have it all figured out in 2007. I like the comments I read when someone dissagrees with aother- you need to study more,your reading the wrong translation,the Holy Spirit has told me this view is right and yours is wrong! So YES I believe brotherly LOVE is most important! JESUS said - LOVE GOD and LOVE one another as the most important commandments. He did not say bicker amongst yourselfs like the pharisees. Now let the corrections,insults and diggs begin! :hug: :)

Also good points.

Remember Paul's statement that all the commandments are summed up in love your neighbor, as you love yourself?

Brother Mark
Sep 26th 2007, 02:23 PM
This is sound doctrine and this is vital doctrine. Without this sound doctrine... one cannot possibly know "love."

I "loved" this statement. The darkest times of my life were the desert experiences. At first, I thought God abandoned me. But later, I learned the fruit of the experiences were well worth while. Understanding the ways of God (good doctrine will teach this) enables us to grow as believers and understand that even the desert times are because of his great love for us.

Should God give me the choice "All of your dreams prior to the desert experience will come true. But you must give up what you learned from it about me"... my answer would be NO! Even though I lost all that seemed precious to me, what I gained was much greater.

Doctrine taught me about God. But it wasn't some theological chess game. Nor was it some philisophical discussion with the Lord or about the Lord. It wasn't a series of facts or thoughts. It was "this is how I operate and function." When I learned that, and embraced the cross and death to self, I learned about a love I never imagined.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:23 PM
I think maybe we need to re-think the word "doctrine." When I hear that word, I think of all the minor debates going on among denominations that really are not that important to following Jesus as the risen Messiah.

Brother Mark
Sep 26th 2007, 02:30 PM
I think maybe we need to re-think the word "doctrine." When I hear that word, I think of all the minor debates going on among denominations that really are not that important to following Jesus as the risen Messiah.

Right. About doctrine...

John 7:16-18

16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine , whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.
NKJV

Jesus only spoke what he heard God speak. And Jesus spoke doctrine. He later said and Peter acknowledged that the words he spoke were LIFE.

Doctrine brings life. But theological debates do not. We get tied up with mental exercises while God is wanting to speak life to us. Mental gymnastics are not doctrine but rather man being in love with his own thoughts.

Good doctrine is to be worn.

Titus 2:10
10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
NKJV


Good doctrine will reveal itself in our walk.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

As good doctrine enters our hearts, it will have an impact. But if it is only a mental exercise, then nothing is accomplish for us except that we get a harder heart.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:38 PM
As good doctrine enters our hearts, it will have an impact. But if it is only a mental exercise, then nothing is accomplish for us except that we get a harder heart.

But I think we should think of doctrine less as the minor details going on in theological debates among various denominations and more of as the way of life that confirms to Christ by knowledge of the gospel of Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection.

Brother Mark
Sep 26th 2007, 02:44 PM
But I think we should think of doctrine less as the minor details going on in theological debates among various denominations and more of as the way of life that confirms to Christ by knowledge of the gospel of Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection.

Amen! I think of good doctrine now as the "ways of God". It is where he teaches us how he operates. How does God do things? What is he like? What does he want? These questions get answered through doctrine.

But, again, these things are not meant to tickle our minds, though they can. Instead, they are meant to be life giving thoughts and teachings that change our hearts and renew our minds. Thus we become conformed to His image. We embrace his ways. When He tells us to do something and he will take us to a land of milk and honey, we do it. Then, when we find ourselves without water for days in a desert, we understand this is His way. This is how he operates. He brought me here for a purpose. We submit to his purpose, learn his ways, his doctrine so to speak, then we enter the promised land later. He didn't lie, nor abandon us.

Most of us know the acts of God. We know he delivers. But why does he deliver? Why does he do what he does? These are his ways and can be answered with sound doctrine. ;) Once we know his ways, we submit to them and the process, combined with faith in Him and his word/promises, changes us into the image of Christ.

Steven3
Sep 26th 2007, 02:46 PM
E.
I think maybe we need to re-think the word "doctrine." When I hear that word, I think of all the minor debates going on among denominations that really are not that important to following Jesus as the risen Messiah.Mmm. True. Personally if it doesn't impact on life in Christ how important can it be?

It's a bit of a misnoma anyway. Back in Shakespeare and King James' day "doctrine" meant what the Greek means "teaching"


Twelfth Night
Act 1, Scene 5
OLIVIA : "A comfortable doctrine, and much may be said of it.
Where lies your text?"

But in modern English to most people it means "dogma" "head knowledge" "creed" without any emphasis on the actual act of teaching a teaching.

To Christ and Paul their "teaching" is not so remote from "doing" as we think anyway.
Steven

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:47 PM
Amen! I think of good doctrine now as the "ways of God". It is where he teaches us how he operates. How does God do things? What is he like? What does he want? These questions get answered through doctrine.

I think that may be a good starting point.

NavyFirefighter
Sep 26th 2007, 02:48 PM
I believe that Baptists, Methodests, Assembly of God, Church of God ect.ect., are all going to go to heaven as long as they believe what the Bible says about salvation. ALL that believe will end up in heaven. the doctrine part of it is how we live here. Once you have faith in God, that faith will determin how your life is lived here on earth.

On earth there is love and doctrine. In heaven there is only love.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:49 PM
To Christ and Paul their "teaching" is not so remote from "doing" as we think anyway.
Steven

Interesting point. Never thought to look to the Greek word behind "doctrine" and try to understand it in terms of Jesus' vocation and Paul's mission.

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 02:53 PM
I "loved" this statement. The darkest times of my life were the desert experiences. At first, I thought God abandoned me. But later, I learned the fruit of the experiences were well worth while. Understanding the ways of God (good doctrine will teach this) enables us to grow as believers and understand that even the desert times are because of his great love for us.

Should God give me the choice "All of your dreams prior to the desert experience will come true. But you must give up what you learned from it about me"... my answer would be NO! Even though I lost all that seemed precious to me, what I gained was much greater.

Doctrine taught me about God. But it wasn't some theological chess game. Nor was it some philisophical discussion with the Lord or about the Lord. It wasn't a series of facts or thoughts. It was "this is how I operate and function." When I learned that, and embraced the cross and death to self, I learned about a love I never imagined.
Oh theology is different. My definition of "theology" will likely not be one that folks enjoy. It is the old dead words of old dead men. I mean we can understand God to a point but those that think we can fully understand God are exercising futitlity in a major way. Having the mind of Christ... that is doctrine. That we can understand and even understanding it isn't the stopping point. As my tag line says... 2 Peter 1:1-11.... live it. That's what it's all about.

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 02:55 PM
I think maybe we need to re-think the word "doctrine." When I hear that word, I think of all the minor debates going on among denominations that really are not that important to following Jesus as the risen Messiah.
Well folks are going to debate doctrine as long as we are living here in the nasty now and now. Most of it is certainly petty stuff but then there are some vital things as well. But doctrine, as The Parson said... teaching, is something that we must have. Without knowledge we will never understand nor KNOW love. :)

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 02:57 PM
But I think we should think of doctrine less as the minor details going on in theological debates among various denominations and more of as the way of life that confirms to Christ by knowledge of the gospel of Jesus' ministry, death, and resurrection.
I think I see the problem though. Folks need to seperate the word doctrine from theology. They are two totally different words and that might seem to be majoring on a minor... I think it an important minor to major on! ;)

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 02:59 PM
I think I see the problem though. Folks need to seperate the word doctrine from theology. They are two totally different words and that might seem to be majoring on a minor... I think it an important minor to major on! ;)

Maybe we need a new word for "doctrine" all together?

One definition of doctrine: "a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief."

The problem is, each denomination has their own "body of principles" they think is 100 percent correct.

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 03:02 PM
Maybe we need a new word for "doctrine" all together?

One definition of doctrine: "a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief."

The problem is, each denomination has their own "body of principles" they think is 100 percent correct.
Nah... we just need understand what doctrine means. In other words... a little knowledge. :)

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 03:03 PM
Nah... we just need understand what doctrine means. In other words... a little knowledge. :)

Well, doctrine means what it is defined as in the typical modern mind, hence the confusion.

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 03:07 PM
Well, doctrine means what it is defined as in the typical modern mind, hence the confusion.
If one wants to rest on that excuse then I suppose you've a case. But if a person follows that injunction by Peter... add to your faith virtue and add to your virtue knowledge.... then one is armed to tackle self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly love and then love.

And pay attention to what you are in fact doing. You don't like all the petty debate over various doctrines but then here we are having a petty debate on the use of the word "doctrine." Just something to ponder. ;)

Matt14
Sep 26th 2007, 03:14 PM
Great conversation going on here, and much appreciated. This is what I had hoped to read. There are so many good comments on here, I can't begin to respond to them all.

ProjectPeter, good to see you, too. Good to know you are still around!

When I think of the importance of doctrine, I think of this statement in Acts:

Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

It's the apostles' doctrine (or teaching) that the disciples continued steadfastly in, and that is what we must continue is as well.

And, correct doctrine (sound teaching) is vitally important for salvation, as Paul tells Timothy:

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

So, in light of what Paul says, can someone with lots of "love" and no understanding of doctrine (teaching) be saved?

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 03:17 PM
Great conversation going on here, and much appreciated. This is what I had hoped to read. There are so many good comments on here, I can't begin to respond to them all.

ProjectPeter, good to see you, too. Good to know you are still around!

When I think of the importance of doctrine, I think of this statement in Acts:

Act 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

It's the apostles' doctrine (or teaching) that the disciples continued steadfastly in, and that is what we must continue is as well.

And, correct doctrine (sound teaching) is vitally important for salvation, as Paul tells Timothy:

1Ti 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

So, in light of what Paul says, can someone with lots of "love" and no understanding of doctrine (teaching) be saved?
I think a strong biblical case can be made Matt... one who hasn't correct doctrine can't understand love (agape). As to being saved... now there's a can of worms to just poor all over the dinner table! :lol:

slightlypuzzled
Sep 26th 2007, 03:31 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

There is 'Doctrine', and there is 'doctrine'. There is an essential doctrine in the NT, but it sometimes is not what we consider essential.
If you read 2Pet. 1:5, or Ephesians 1, you see that we are to grow in our knowledge, and Paul regularly prayed that the readers would grow through the work of the Spirit. So, knowledge is necessary, and doctrine is a term synonymous with knowledge. I think the real problem is that some have place a particular 'doctrine' as important; when in reality it is either not a biblical doctrine, or is one that is unduly emphasized as being a 'fundamental' doctrine....

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 03:40 PM
I think a strong biblical case can be made Matt... one who hasn't correct doctrine can't understand love (agape). As to being saved... now there's a can of worms to just poor all over the dinner table! :lol:

I'll repost my view of the word "saved" from another thread:

1) We are saved (past tense) from our sins (2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5; cf. Rom 7:6; cf. Gal 1:4; cf. 1Jn 1:9).

2) We are saved (past tense) from spiritual death (i.e. Rom 6:4; cf. Joh 12:24; cf. Luk 1:79, 15:24).

3) We will be (future tense) saved from physical death (i.e. 1Co 15:54).

4) We will be (future tense) saved from wrath (Rom 5:9).

5) We are pressing on (present tense) with the "prize" in mind (Php 3:14).

6) We are working out, katergazomai, that is, accomplishing (present tense) our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12).

7) God is working (present tense) in us to do his work and good pleasure (Php 2:13).

This is why I say, and you may have heard me say it before, "saved" is a poor word to describe being a Christian, because salvation is past, present, and future; in that way, we will not be fully saved until after resurrection when death is defeated. A similar theme emerges when Jesus says those who endure to the end will be (future tense) saved (e.g. Mat 10:22; cf. Rev 2:26), where salvation seems to take on the meaning of deliverance; in that sense, we can say we will be (future) delivered from wrath, the second death, if we endure unto the end (Rom 5:9; cf. 1Th 1:10, notice ruoumenon as a present middle/passive deponent participle; Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26).

Matt14
Sep 26th 2007, 03:44 PM
I think a strong biblical case can be made Matt... one who hasn't correct doctrine can't understand love (agape). As to being saved... now there's a can of worms to just poor all over the dinner table! :lol:
I know what you mean! But, I've never been shy about popping such cans open. :D

It seems clear-cut to me. Paul says you can "save yourself and others" by giving heed to yourself and to doctrine. Watch yourself, and watch your doctrine.

Matt14
Sep 26th 2007, 03:46 PM
There is 'Doctrine', and there is 'doctrine'. There is an essential doctrine in the NT, but it sometimes is not what we consider essential.
If you read 2Pet. 1:5, or Ephesians 1, you see that we are to grow in our knowledge, and Paul regularly prayed that the readers would grow through the work of the Spirit. So, knowledge is necessary, and doctrine is a term synonymous with knowledge. I think the real problem is that some have place a particular 'doctrine' as important; when in reality it is either not a biblical doctrine, or is one that is unduly emphasized as being a 'fundamental' doctrine....
Hi there, SP! Good to see you too! Lots of old friends in this thread....

So, there is also a balance necessary too, huh? Sound doctrine, but consistent and not neglectful of ALL doctrine the scriptures contain.

RogerW
Sep 26th 2007, 03:47 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

Greetings Matt14,

Good question! It has been my experience that when one says that we should not worry about doctrine, but simply focus on love, it is because they are offended or opposed to particular teachings of the Bible. It is their desire to draw us away from doctrine they (((feel))) divides. The doctrine I find people who want to focus only on love hate the most is the doctrine of reprobation. Yet, if this doctrine is neglected or altogether omitted from our teaching, then how can one know of the all encompassing love of God toward His children? We must know what we are saved from...this is doctrine.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 04:22 PM
I'll repost my view of the word "saved" from another thread:

1) We are saved (past tense) from our sins (2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5; cf. Rom 7:6; cf. Gal 1:4; cf. 1Jn 1:9).

2) We are saved (past tense) from spiritual death (i.e. Rom 6:4; cf. Joh 12:24; cf. Luk 1:79, 15:24).

3) We will be (future tense) saved from physical death (i.e. 1Co 15:54).

4) We will be (future tense) saved from wrath (Rom 5:9).

5) We are pressing on (present tense) with the "prize" in mind (Php 3:14).

6) We are working out, katergazomai, that is, accomplishing (present tense) our salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12).

7) God is working (present tense) in us to do his work and good pleasure (Php 2:13).

This is why I say, and you may have heard me say it before, "saved" is a poor word to describe being a Christian, because salvation is past, present, and future; in that way, we will not be fully saved until after resurrection when death is defeated. A similar theme emerges when Jesus says those who endure to the end will be (future tense) saved (e.g. Mat 10:22; cf. Rev 2:26), where salvation seems to take on the meaning of deliverance; in that sense, we can say we will be (future) delivered from wrath, the second death, if we endure unto the end (Rom 5:9; cf. 1Th 1:10, notice ruoumenon as a present middle/passive deponent participle; Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26).Not going to get any argument with me there. ;)

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 04:23 PM
I know what you mean! But, I've never been shy about popping such cans open. :D

It seems clear-cut to me. Paul says you can "save yourself and others" by giving heed to yourself and to doctrine. Watch yourself, and watch your doctrine.That's sure enough what it says. :)

ProjectPeter
Sep 26th 2007, 04:25 PM
Greetings Matt14,

Good question! It has been my experience that when one says that we should not worry about doctrine, but simply focus on love, it is because they are offended or opposed to particular teachings of the Bible. It is their desire to draw us away from doctrine they (((feel))) divides. The doctrine I find people who want to focus only on love hate the most is the doctrine of reprobation. Yet, if this doctrine is neglected or altogether omitted from our teaching, then how can one know of the all encompassing love of God toward His children? We must know what we are saved from...this is doctrine.

Many Blessings,
RW
Not arguing reprobation because we would just disagree on that issue. But for the sake of pushing the discussion forward... let's say that they understand it... now what?

Mograce2U
Sep 26th 2007, 04:26 PM
My point is, there are several denominations that all think they are teaching the "right" doctrine. Obviously there are some simple, unambiguous things we have in common, but not all things are so clear. With that said, I think it is more important we devote our lives to following Jesus, rather than keeping our heads inside a book while the world falls apart around us. Some person in another country that only knows Jesus is the risen Messiah and that his or her job is to follow him on a narrow road and does so accordingly is no better off or worse than a scholar who can read three languages and is an expert on some particular subject.

Knowledge isn't everything; God is.

Don't get me wrong, I feel that by studying the Scriptures I connect with God, but I also realize that the things I think I know are "right" may not actually be right. There are other denominations (including the mainstream ones) that disagree with some of the things I have come to believe through my own, personal studies. That shouldn't stop us from being "one in Christ," should it? Of course not.

If you put too much of an emphasis on doctrine and knowledge, you will forget what is more important. Trust me, I know. About two years ago I thought I was "right" for being a Universalist and everyone else was "wrong" for not being a Universalist, and because of that, I lost focus on the fact that the other people I looked down on for disagreeing with me were also Christians, followers of the Messiah. I also changed my opinion and my opinion may change again. Even now I struggle with looking down on others who disagree with things that to me appear obvious; I have been praying that God will help me with that.

I wish denominations could focus more on their similarities than their differences is my main point.Hi Enarchay,
You have just given us a great example of why we need to have a grasp of sound doctrine. The Universalist thinks that God is not loving if some men end up not saved. This lack of understanding causes one to have a wrong view of the nature of God - which they then teach to others and it spreads. If we do not have our eyes upon the true God but a god of our own understanding, we are fast on the way to worshipping a false god. Such idolatry is what scripture warns us of over and over.

There is a deceiver who is attempting to lead us astray from our secure position in Christ. And how does he try and do this? But presenting another Jesus, another gospel by another spirit that is not holy. We need to abide in the Word if we are to be set free from this spirit of error that is hard at work in the world.

Proper discernment is how we will recognize the Spirit of Truth from this spirit of error - and that thru practice. This is what we do here so that the love we spread in the world brings forth the desired fruit - the salvation of souls. What reward can the Universalist (JW, Mormon, etc.) expect for his efforts? hmmmm

Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord! Now that's a goal that can make one diligent and careful to study every day. Then the love of God that fills our hearts will spread naturally into the lives of those we meet and the desired fruit will come.

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 04:30 PM
Hi Enarchay,
You have just given us a great example of why we need to have a grasp of sound doctrine. The Universalist thinks that God is not loving if some men end up not saved. This lack of understanding causes one to have a wrong view of the nature of God - which they then teach to others and it spreads. If we do not have our eyes upon the true God but a god of our own understanding, we are fast on the way to worshipping a false god. Such idolatry is what scripture warns us of over and over.

Actually, no. The Universalists believe what they believe based on their interpretation of Scripture. They make good points but I eventually decided for myself that the Bible as a whole supports annihilationism (and I'm sure you will disagree with me on that). I don't blame anyone for having a different opinion.

Sold Out
Sep 26th 2007, 04:41 PM
Concerning the Christian faith, there are only five fundamentals to which we must all agree:


1)The verbal inspiration and authority of the Scriptures(See - II Tim 3:16 & II Pet 1: 20, 21). If the Bible is not true, then we have no proof of the Christian faith.


2)The virgin birth of Christ (See - Isa 7:14 & Mt 1: 20-23). If Christ was not virgin born, then he was a sinner like us and not able to be our perfect substitute for salvation.


3)The Triune Godhead and thus the deity of Christ(See - Gen 1:1, 26 & I Jn 5:7). If Christ is not God, then he was a liar and not able to be our sinless sacrifice for salvation.


4)The Gospel of Christ (i.e., His death, burial and resurrection) (See - Eph 2:8,9). If Christ did not die for our sins and rise again, then there is no salvation.


5) The visible and personal Second Coming of Christ (See - Dan 7:13 & Acts 1:10,11). If Christ does not return like he said he would, then, again, he is a liar and the Bible is not true and many other promises connected with his coming cannot be fulfilled.

Mograce2U
Sep 26th 2007, 04:55 PM
Concerning the Christian faith, there are only five fundamentals to which we must all agree:


1)The verbal inspiration and authority of the Scriptures(See - II Tim 3:16 & II Pet 1: 20, 21). If the Bible is not true, then we have no proof of the Christian faith.


2)The virgin birth of Christ (See - Isa 7:14 & Mt 1: 20-23). If Christ was not virgin born, then he was a sinner like us and not able to be our perfect substitute for salvation.


3)The Triune Godhead and thus the deity of Christ(See - Gen 1:1, 26 & I Jn 5:7). If Christ is not God, then he was a liar and not able to be our sinless sacrifice for salvation.


4)The Gospel of Christ (i.e., His death, burial and resurrection) (See - Eph 2:8,9). If Christ did not die for our sins and rise again, then there is no salvation.


5) The visible and personal Second Coming of Christ (See - Dan 7:13 & Acts 1:10,11). If Christ does not return like he said he would, then, again, he is a liar and the Bible is not true and many other promises connected with his coming cannot be fulfilled.You forgot one:

(John 3:3 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Tanya~
Sep 26th 2007, 05:33 PM
Knowing God is pretty simple. All Christian denominations have that in common: the belief in God.

And yet...


James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!

Belief in God isn't enough for salvation. One must have the doctrine of Christ.




Yes, but what was once delivered to the saints never stayed the same throughout history.

That doesn't make any sense. Jude's whole point was to keep what had been originally given. Those who adulterated it did not keep it. It stayed the same, but they mixed it with other stuff.


Even before the dawn of the second century there were debates going on.

The debates began from the very beginning, which is what led to the writing of many of the NT letters. From these, we can know what was once for all delivered to the saints -- through those things that the apostles corrected in the letters.


Look at Peter, James, and Paul. James was going around trying to circumcise Gentiles, Peter was being hypocritical, and Paul was rebuking them both.

Paul, James and Peter all corrected error, and we have these corrections for our benefit, so that we can allow Scripture to correct us.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

The men were fallible and subject to correction, but the Scriptures have been delivered to us as the doctrine to keep.



If you compare some of the things we believe now with what was believed, I don't know, about, 1000 years ago, you would probably see a difference.

There are in some cases a HUGE difference between what is seen in churches today vs. what was delivered once for all to the saints. That doesn't nullify the apostolic teaching, but it should compel us to return to it.


When Constantine, for example, made Christian the religion of Rome, people suddenly stopped calling Isis the "mother of God" and started worshiping Mary as the "mother of God." The date of the birth of Mithras was declared the date of the birth of Christ. So we see throughout history Christianity merging with other religions.

Yes, all true. If they could depart from the faith, we should depart from that and return to the pure faith once for all delivered to the saints.


So obviously there has never been a point in history when people had "perfect" doctrine.

The Scripture gives us what we need. I agree that human interpretations and motivations cause deviation from the truth. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to obey Jude's charge to keep what was originally given. If we find we have deviated from it, shouldn't we correct ourselves and return?




It is not really important what the majority believes or what the minatory believe but what we come to believe as individuals through careful study of the Scriptures. But if we come to conclusions (in eschatology, for example) different from our brothers and sisters in Christ, we should still stay "one" with each other and fellowship with each other with the basic beliefs we have in common, such as Jesus being the risen Messiah and the Lord of the world.

I agree.


I can't stand, for example, how most Jehovah's Witnesses cut themselves off from the rest of the Christian community.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a different Jesus and a different gospel. Their Jesus didn't rise from the dead in His body. He was only raised as a spirit. This is why doctrine is important. If you don't have the correct doctrine on the essentials of the faith, you will not be in the faith.

2 Cor 11:3-4
4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted — you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel , 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

walked
Sep 26th 2007, 05:42 PM
And yet...

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!
Belief in God isn't enough for salvation. One must have the doctrine of Christ.





That doesn't make any sense. Jude's whole point was to keep what had been originally given. Those who adulterated it did not keep it. It stayed the same, but they mixed it with other stuff.



The debates began from the very beginning, which is what led to the writing of many of the NT letters. From these, we can know what was once for all delivered to the saints -- through those things that the apostles corrected in the letters.



Paul, James and Peter all corrected error, and we have these corrections for our benefit, so that we can allow Scripture to correct us.

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

The men were fallible and subject to correction, but the Scriptures have been delivered to us as the doctrine to keep.




There are in some cases a HUGE difference between what is seen in churches today vs. what was delivered once for all to the saints. That doesn't nullify the apostolic teaching, but it should compel us to return to it.



Yes, all true. If they could depart from the faith, we should depart from that and return to the pure faith once for all delivered to the saints.



The Scripture gives us what we need. I agree that human interpretations and motivations cause deviation from the truth. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to obey Jude's charge to keep what was originally given. If we find we have deviated from it, shouldn't we correct ourselves and return?




I agree.



The Jehovah's Witnesses have a different Jesus and a different gospel. Their Jesus didn't rise from the dead in His body. He was only raised as a spirit. This is why doctrine is important. If you don't have the correct doctrine on the essentials of the faith, you will not be in the faith.

2 Cor 11:3-4
4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted — you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel , 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

Amen ! preach sister !

All of pure doctrine is found in the bible (the written word of God)
Thats where pure doctrine unpolluted is found and not in debate or denominational creeds!

roshkoch
Sep 26th 2007, 07:19 PM
Are we talking core doctrine or the minor doctrines?

I think that the core doctrines are important : God the Father, Jesus the Son, the Holy Spirit, the creation of man in God's image, the authority of the Bible, Salvation as a free gift, Eternal Existence, and the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ (and its servitude).

I think that many other things that are usually lumped in with "doctrine" are over valued. Beyond the core doctrines, the others could be peacefully debated (and have been) with sound scriptural backing until we are blue in the face.

The danger in the constant debate is that we get so tied up in fighting with each other that the love that all law and grace was founded upon gets lost in the dust of proving one's self to be more right than anyone else.

I think the Christian Church (which I personally differ with on the issue of baptism) says it best:

In matters of doctrine and belief, strive for three things:

1. in essential matters, unity;
2. in non-essential matters, liberty;
3. in all things, Christian love.

(Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 14:1, 4, 12, 22, 1 Corinthians 13:1)

mikebr
Sep 26th 2007, 07:40 PM
Trying to separate doctrine from love is like trying to take the milk, eggs and vanilla our of a banana puddin'. It ain't gonna happen. There is no doctrine without love. Its called religion.

NavyFirefighter
Sep 26th 2007, 07:43 PM
Are we talking core doctrine or the minor doctrines?

I think that the core doctrines are important : God the Father, Jesus the Son, the Holy Spirit, the creation of man in God's image, the authority of the Bible, Salvation as a free gift, Eternal Existence, and the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ (and its servitude).

I think that many other things that are usually lumped in with "doctrine" are over valued. Beyond the core doctrines, the others could be peacefully debated (and have been) with sound scriptural backing until we are blue in the face.

The danger in the constant debate is that we get so tied up in fighting with each other that the love that all law and grace was founded upon gets lost in the dust of proving one's self to be more right than anyone else.

I think the Christian Church (which I personally differ with on the issue of baptism) says it best:

In matters of doctrine and belief, strive for three things:

1. in essential matters, unity;
2. in non-essential matters, liberty;
3. in all things, Christian love.

(Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 14:1, 4, 12, 22, 1 Corinthians 13:1)
Aman Brother!!!

Matt14
Sep 26th 2007, 07:50 PM
I think the Christian Church (which I personally differ with on the issue of baptism) says it best:

In matters of doctrine and belief, strive for three things:

1. in essential matters, unity;
2. in non-essential matters, liberty;
3. in all things, Christian love.

(Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 14:1, 4, 12, 22, 1 Corinthians 13:1)

Thanks roshkoch for your interesting comments. :) You bring up a good thought for this discussion. Now, rosh is not trying to make this thread about baptism. That was not his intent, but I think he makes an interesting point.

I am not interested in talking about baptism in this thread! Let's keep the specifics of that debate in the appropriate threads.

BUT, rosh brings up in important point about doctrine. The Christian Church would see the necessity of baptism as a part of #1, "essential matters." Other denominations (and I use that term loosely, as many in the Chrisitian Church would take offense at being labled a denomination) would say baptism falls into #2!

Do you see what I mean? Where ultimately can we get a solid grounding on what is essential, and what is not?

Discuss!

enarchay
Sep 26th 2007, 07:55 PM
Concerning the Christian faith, there are only five fundamentals to which we must all agree:

I don't agree all five, especially as you explain them, are central, but I agree most are.

roshkoch
Sep 26th 2007, 08:10 PM
BUT, rosh brings up in important point. The Christian Church would see the necessity of baptism as a part of #1, "essential matters." Other denominations (and I use that term loosely, as many in the Chrisitian Church would take offense at being labled a denomination) would say baptism falls into #2!

Do you see what I mean? Where ultimately can we get a solid grounding on what is essential, and what is not?

Discuss!


The Christian Church is a non-denominational denomination (that's the joke we have at our church - which is a Christian Church). :lol:

I attend a Christian Church (sorry to pick on them, but it helps to illustrate a point) in a very rural area. Of the three pastors employed by the church, only one of them holds fast to the baptism doctrine (which isn't up for discussion/debate here, and is just being used to illustrate a point). The others disagree, but do not make attempts at picking a fight with those in the congregation who agree with that doctrine. I would say that of the many members of the three services there, the majority do NOT agree with their baptism doctrine.

There are also many who have differing thoughts on the end times philosophies, which some folks seem to think is also doctrine. There are pre, mid, and post tribbers all in the same congregation.

There are also a variety of OSAS and Conditionals in the congregation.

We all get along. Our community out reach is vast. Sure, there is an element of your typical church gunk, but it is not over who is right or wrong where it comes to non essential doctrines. There is no spiteful, in your face, rebellious behavior either.

For example, the youth pastor and I both disagree with the overall CC thoughts on baptism. But when a student comes forward to ask for help with making a decision for Christ, we definitely encourage the immersion baptism as soon as possible (which is very soon thanks to the heated indoor baptismal and the creek that runs along side the church). For it is a good thing. We don't try to make waves with anything. It is just that neither of us believe it is necessary.

I have been to some fellowships where if you differ on even the most minuscule of unessential doctrinal beliefs, then you are not even permitted to speak or ask questions. You get treated as a second class citizen. I think THAT is wrong. I think that speaking down at people for having slightly different opinions on minor elements is not an effective means of conveying law or truth (or in most cases, a personal declaration of truth - as I said, most of these debates are not new and have been debated for centuries with solid, foundational scriptural backing).


To find what the most foundational of all core doctrines are, I would say (in MY humble opinion) to strip down your statement of beliefs to nothing, and lay down the solid bricks that are absolutely essential. Redefine your base and then as you think about what is next, ask yourself "does the answer to this debate, either way, have any bearing on what the core of my belief is?" If the answer to that debate has no bearing to the integrity of your core, it is non essential.

I hope that made some sense.

And again, that is just my opinion. We are all fond of our opinions, and many of us refuse to be wrong. I have found this to be the best method for determining what my spiritual focus needs to be on.

Sold Out
Sep 26th 2007, 08:11 PM
You forgot one:

(John 3:3 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

That's encompassed in #4

tgallison
Sep 27th 2007, 12:58 PM
Here lies agape love. Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than necessary food.

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 27th 2007, 01:33 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

Excellent question Matt...

I believe as one grows, one needs to know... as God gives grace as we seek Him in understandings...


Some points from within Scripture to point to...


Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.

Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light;
And reproofs for discipline are the way of life

1 Timothy 4:6
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

Titus 1:9
holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Titus 2:1
But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.

For God's Glory...

tgallison
Sep 27th 2007, 02:40 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

Matt14

In some ways these two words are interchangeable. Love to some is feeding the poor or doing good works, but look at what Jesus said.

Luke 10:38-42 "Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. (39) And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus feet, and heard his word. (40) But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said , Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. (41) And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: (42) But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

Love is also to sit at Jesus feet, and hear his word. One is to be done, and not let the other undone. But one is preferred over the other.

The love of the word, of doctrine, is first. The the love of good works is second. The love of good works is worthless, without the love of Jesus.

Matt14
Sep 27th 2007, 03:22 PM
Good posts, everyones. This thread is filled with good thoughts by so many different people. Good work! Very enriching and enlightening to see your responses.

Teke
Sep 27th 2007, 04:49 PM
Hi Matt. Good to see you again. :wave:

I believe all doctrine must be of love formed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is front and center, everything else is just subjects revolving around Him.

Is doctrine essential for salvation? Maybe they go hand and hand, as they are both progressive. The short question is wide open. Can a person be saved without doctrine?, I believe so. Will that person learn some doctrine at some point?, I believe they will. Some people are happy just as they are without searching deep things of God like theology or spiritual guidance, like doctrines.

Mainly I think people should consider things more if they are established doctrines. As they will learn WHY they are established doctrines and how they uphold other truths by them. Which is what a doctrine or dogma should do. :)

DSK
Sep 27th 2007, 05:23 PM
"Doctrine without love is legalism. Love without doctrine is humanism." - Dr. David Jeremiah

Right doctrine does have a way of producing right living. Wrong doctrine oftentimes can produce the wrong sort of living. For example, some people have so magnified grace to the exclusion of other Biblical truths, that they have produced a false gospel which gives license to sin. That's what can happen when one truth of Scripture is elevated over and above other truths of Scripture.

Hburgpreacher
Sep 28th 2007, 04:27 AM
Doctrine is of utmost importance when it comes to "salvation issues." The apostles were adamant about the purity of the doctrine and vehemently refuted false doctrines and urged one another to be on the lookout for those who taught another way to the Father besides going through the Son, Jesus Christ.

By the same token, we must be very receptive to other viewpoints and willing to "agree to disagree" when it comes to matters of "style, opinion, and preference" in regards to non-salvation issues. Scripture stress this attitude for the sake of unity.

Point-man
Oct 15th 2017, 09:16 PM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!
God told the Jews “ In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every WORD be established “. People often tell me that’s only in a court of law. Since God is the judge, yes, I’d say doctrine is very important. My opinion only.

Point-man
Oct 15th 2017, 09:17 PM
That is Bible doctrine.

Point-man
Oct 15th 2017, 09:21 PM
Matt14

In some ways these two words are interchangeable. Love to some is feeding the poor or doing good works, but look at what Jesus said.

Luke 10:38-42 "Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. (39) And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus feet, and heard his word. (40) But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said , Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. (41) And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: (42) But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."

Love is also to sit at Jesus feet, and hear his word. One is to be done, and not let the other undone. But one is preferred over the other.

The love of the word, of doctrine, is first. The the love of good works is second. The love of good works is worthless, without the love of Jesus.
Why are you answering a question before the cross as to solve a question after?

Point-man
Oct 15th 2017, 09:35 PM
Doctrine and Love are both very important. This a reason I feel Churches that are Creedal and Biblical are vital, but it is important to express love to God and others, among other things my Church has a soup kitchen. Grace and Peace.

You mean they get the Grace of God in church and eat in
Peace afterwards? Just joking.

keck553
Oct 16th 2017, 12:34 AM
Jesus said ‘truth and grace’ for a reason.

fred06
Oct 16th 2017, 06:23 AM
Recently I read someone implying that we should not worry so much over "doctrine" and instead focus on "love."

In your understanding of scripture, what part does doctrine play in the church? In the life of a Christian?

How important is doctrine?

Thanks, and God bless!

Hi there everyone and you too 'Matt14', i am fred who have just joined you all. First of all, i thank GOD in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST for all of you who are 'saved', that is by grace and through faith, by the gift of GOD. Lastly, i thank also HIM, for the administrators and moderators whom HE has placed here, as HIS 'overseers' of HIS lambs and sheep, as they interact with one another HIS HOLY BIBLE Scriptures for doctrine, that they interact in sound doctrine and be built up as the church.

Peace be with you all and be blessed in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST. i apologize ahead that i am sorry, if this was an inappropriate beginning of introduction and the segment to start with. Since it was done spontaneously, i believe the brethren here will pass on the news onto others eventually, thank you.

Nevertheless dear 'Matt14', that's an interesting and legitimate 'topic', the speculating 'viral' denominationally, in order to 'beguile' believers, that they will one day disregard the 'All Scripture = HOLY BILE' for doctrine, and be ruled by denominational clergies and their doctrines using selective Scriptures for doctrine over and over again. Please be assertive brethren, from where this pattern begun and how it has infiltrated the church of the Reformers and Protestant. Thus far the 'puppet' churches, which has sprout out among us, contradicting theologically and spiritually our 'All Scripture = HOLY BIBLE' for doctrine conformed faith, hope and love.

Love is the greatest, but we are not to be equally yoked with them, nor be conformed by it's pattern. And notably, we do not curse, nor call the fire from heaven on them, as some believers would want to exaggerate us of doing so.

In regards to the 'topic', in the first place, CHRIST's doctrine from Matthew chapter 5 to the book of Revelation, consist of 'love', for everyone who hears them and does them, are individually unto a 'wise man', who build his house on the rock. .......................... And, if those who 'abide' in them, truly are CHRIST's disciples, and they will know the truth and the truth will set them free. As the remnant of the Jews chosen by grace from Israel have proven so from the book of Acts, CHRIST from the Gospel itself already instructed them further to make disciples of all nation, kindred and tongue. As again, CHRIST in the Gospel of John already instructed them likewise that they are to 'abide' themselves in His doctrine and love, encompassed in and as our New Testament incorporated. JESUS CHRIST our LORD said to them that without abiding in His doctrine and love, they can do nothing. Therefore when they do, 'they will bear much fruit.'(Acts 2:42-47)

And after CHRIST left back to Heaven, what was all the Apostles' fruit, they 'bear' as the 'much fruit', whereas promised by our LORD, prior to their abiding to His doctrine and love?

They are non other than the 'church' disciple and baptized by them, the body of CHRIST, consisting of Jew and Gentile Christian, of all nation.

Second, to your questions after that, basically further 2 Timothy 3; 16 & 17 and 2 John, verse 9 - 11, clarifies the part it plays profiting a man of GOD first. Then from him to the church, and CHRIST's doctrine itself to individual believers who should abide in them as well(John 15:16), all ministered unto them by a profited from them unto all good works, man of GOD. And moreover, how important is it's doctrine for the 'built up' of GOD through CHRIST's lambs and sheep, who are within in 'oneness' as the one body of CHRIST with it's 'members'.

Therefore from oneness to oneness they grow, working together and being together founded as the church of the New Testament/Covenant/Agreement, as a wise man's house was built upon a rock.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST be thanked forever and ever. Amen.