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Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 03:35 PM
I already have an opinion on this. I just want to take the temperature, of peoples opinions on this board about the question.

BTW; Your are welcome to post long posts for other readers, but I personally will ignore anything longer than a couple of short paragraphs on this one.

humbled
Sep 28th 2007, 04:10 PM
I already have an opinion on this. I just want to take the temperature, of peoples opinions on this board about the question.

BTW; Your are welcome to post long posts for other readers, but I personally will ignore anything longer than a couple of short paragraphs on this one.No.

They are weeping over the ramifications of their sin. They are cursing God. They are continuing to heap up wrath upon themselves by their continued sins (which is why God can justly and fairly punish people for eternity) -- yes, I believe people continue to sin in hell.

Hell is not the place for servants of Christ. It is a place for the glory of God's justice to be displayed.

I've attached a few links (if it works) that explain this quite clearly.

What the Bible Says About Hell, Part 1 Listen... (http://web.mac.com/fbcbb/iWeb/FBCBB%20Podcast/Podcast/F56A767A-FBEA-44FE-8A4F-E43F0035CC43.html)

What the Bible Says About Hell, Part 2 Listen... (http://web.mac.com/fbcbb/iWeb/FBCBB%20Podcast/Podcast/2F7EB798-9DB5-4F6C-AC43-59767E93403B.html)

Common Objections to the Doctrine of Hell Listen... (http://web.mac.com/fbcbb/iWeb/FBCBB%20Podcast/Podcast/DEC96656-1472-430C-A7E6-6FA5ED5EAB20.html)

What Will Hell Be Like? Listen... (http://web.mac.com/fbcbb/iWeb/FBCBB%20Podcast/Podcast/69D0059A-4CBE-485A-B088-291E29ECFA05.html)

How should Heaven and Hell change my life? Listen... (http://web.mac.com/fbcbb/iWeb/FBCBB%20Podcast/Podcast/1833FEC3-9E17-460F-88CB-A50FBC33DF5C.html)

Be blessed

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 04:23 PM
So is it fair to say that they Serve as examples of Gods eternal justice?

humbled
Sep 28th 2007, 04:27 PM
So is it fair to say that they Serve as examples of Gods eternal justice?lol .. I guess.

But it is definitely a passive service on the parts of those in hell.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 04:33 PM
lol .. I guess.

But it is definitely a passive service on the parts of those in hell.

Their perspective is not what is important to me. Passive or not, do they serve God?

I know you already answered to a degree, and I'm not trying to come off as pressing you... but for a while now I have known that I have a different perspective as to how things are. I guess I'm seeking either validation on that perspective, a way to change that perspective, or a way to teach it be it godly.

This is why I ask.

Anymore input would be appreciated.

Sold Out
Sep 28th 2007, 04:37 PM
So is it fair to say that they Serve as examples of Gods eternal justice?

I wouldn't take it that far.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 04:39 PM
I wouldn't take it that far.

Why? -------------------

humbled
Sep 28th 2007, 04:51 PM
Their perspective is not what is important to me. Passive or not, do they serve God?

I know you already answered to a degree, and I'm not trying to come off as pressing you... but for a while now I have known that I have a different perspective as to how things are. I guess I'm seeking either validation on that perspective, a way to change that perspective, or a way to teach it be it godly.

This is why I ask.

Anymore input would be appreciated.I lean towards double predesination.

Does that help?

Blessings

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 04:53 PM
I lean towards double predesination.

Does that help?

Blessings

First I'm hearing this... What is double predestination?

Sold Out
Sep 28th 2007, 04:53 PM
Why? -------------------

Because of the use of the word. They may 'serve' as an example, but it's not the same as a person consciously serving someone.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 04:59 PM
Because of the use of the word. They may 'serve' as an example, but it's not the same as a person consciously serving someone.

I think they are conscience of it, but they are forced servants, for eternity, as there is no way out of that servitude that they hate so much and always hated. That is why it is hell.

I was quoted as saying once;

"Some people, when they find out what eternity in heaven is really going to be like, it will actually be hell for them."

What do you think of this?

Iliana
Sep 28th 2007, 05:17 PM
Didn't God send them to hell because they specifically didn't want to serve God and be a part of His Kingdom? He let them choose. It's my guess that they're not, but, only God knows for sure :)

humbled
Sep 28th 2007, 05:18 PM
First I'm hearing this... What is double predestination?
http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

It is, in my view, the logical conclusion of election.

Scripture teaches that some are chosen for salvation. Some people soften the result to say that others are overlooked or passed by, and left to die in their sins, which is single predestination.

I do not think God is so passive in His decrees. It stands to reason, in my mind, that if God sovereignly elects some and, even if He is merely "passing over" others and allowing them to perish due to the hardness of their hearts, then he is NOT doing "all He can" to save them as He did with the chief of sinners (Paul the Apostle). So it is not inability on God's part to save. And all people are unwilling at one point in their lives before God MAKES them willing ... so that no one may boast.

Therefore, if someone is forever unwilling, then it is because God sovereignly chose NOT to act. He didn't decide this after some event (such as their refusal to choose of Him). It was determined before the foundation of the world, if you believe God is entirely omniscient and does not learn about or adapt to His creation.

The article makes it clearer (tho it is long, and I know you don't like the long posts ... sorry)

humbled
Sep 28th 2007, 05:21 PM
I think they are conscience of it, but they are forced servants, for eternity, as there is no way out of that servitude that they hate so much and always hated. That is why it is hell.

I was quoted as saying once;

"Some people, when they find out what eternity in heaven is really going to be like, it will actually be hell for them."

What do you think of this?I think you should listen to those messages I provided. You seem to have a different view of what hell is than is orthodox. Hell is not people being forced to serve God against their will. It is where God pours out His wrath on the impenitent sinners who break His moral laws.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 05:24 PM
(tho it is long, and I know you don't like the long posts ... sorry)

That was just right in length. And thank you for taking the time to explain. I still am a little confused about it, but definitely have a better understanding.

To other readers:

I'm begging you not to turn this into a predestination vs. free will arguement. I will go to the mods if you do.

The purpose of this thread is to get some more perspective on issues such as servitude.

Sold Out
Sep 28th 2007, 05:26 PM
I think they are conscience of it, but they are forced servants, for eternity, as there is no way out of that servitude that they hate so much and always hated. That is why it is hell.

I was quoted as saying once;

"Some people, when they find out what eternity in heaven is really going to be like, it will actually be hell for them."

What do you think of this?

I guess I don't see the point of this thread.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 05:29 PM
I think you should listen to those messages I provided. You seem to have a different view of what hell is than is orthodox. Hell is not people being forced to serve God against their will. It is where God pours out His wrath on the impenitent sinners who break His moral laws.

I have heard several viewpoints on what hell is like from many preachers. I listen to only Christian Talk Radio.

I agree that God pours out his wrath, but he doesn't do it by eternally socking them in the face or anything... I think it is done through the truth about God that already exists and the sinner in hell can no longer escape that truth.

It is that truth that tortures them for eternity. That is Gods wrath.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 05:35 PM
I guess I don't see the point of this thread.

The inspiration of this thread has come from another thing I was quoted as saying:

"You either serve as an example of Gods mercy, or you serve as an example of Gods justice, either way... you serve God."

I am testing the logic of this quote. One of the ways for this quote, for me anyways, to be a true statement, is if people in hell are servants of God. Whether or not people in hell see it that way doesn't seem relevant. Whether or not it is true is what is important here.

enarchay
Sep 28th 2007, 06:03 PM
They are dead and buried; the dead and buried cannot worship anyone let alone God.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 06:15 PM
They are dead and buried; the dead and buried cannot worship anyone let alone God.

Yes... I agree that worship is one part of servitude. Not necessarily a part of theirs. I do think that it is possible that they at least try it once though, to try and get out of their predicament. After all thats what a lot of them did while they were alive here on earth. It even may have worked for them once or twice, as we also know God is loving and all about giving someone a chance. I think their attempt in hell however, might immediately be realized that it's not gonna work anymore.

We know that are fully aware about the full and entire truth of God however.

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 06:21 PM
As a follow up.. I would have to think that people in hell know more about the truth about God than anybody on earth.

Steven3
Sep 28th 2007, 06:26 PM
I already have an opinion on this. I just want to take the temperature, of peoples opinions on this board about the question.

BTW; Your are welcome to post long posts for other readers, but I personally will ignore anything longer than a couple of short paragraphs on this one.

Those in Sheol like Jacob? No. The dead cannot praise God. Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18 and every other verse about death in the Bible.

I suppse they serve by the witness of their lives as recorded in the Bible?
God bless
Steven :)

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 06:30 PM
Those in Sheol like Jacob? No. The dead cannot praise God. Psalm 6:5, Isaiah 38:18 and every other verse about death in the Bible.
I agree that they cannot praise him, but praise is only one part of servitude is it not?

The servitude they are under is the eternal example of Gods justice. What I am saying is that they are servants to his justice, but servants none-the-less.

Is that a true statement?

Serve-N-Protect
Sep 28th 2007, 06:58 PM
As a follow up, your making the word "dead" seem like they don't exist anymore. Do think that they no longer exist?

Toolman
Sep 28th 2007, 08:41 PM
The inspiration of this thread has come from another thing I was quoted as saying:

"You either serve as an example of Gods mercy, or you serve as an example of Gods justice, either way... you serve God."

I am testing the logic of this quote. One of the ways for this quote, for me anyways, to be a true statement, is if people in hell are servants of God. Whether or not people in hell see it that way doesn't seem relevant. Whether or not it is true is what is important here.

SNP,

It seems to me that you would find some biblical support in the text of Romans 9:

Romans 9:19-22 - One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

I think the word "serve" may be throwing some people of.

Many Christians (especially of the reformed side) will agree that those in hell "serve" as examples of God's wrath and those in heaven "serve" as an example of His mercy.

Is that in the ball park of what you are describing?

I'm not saying I completely agree with that dichotomy but many would and do.

mikebr
Sep 29th 2007, 02:08 AM
That was just right in length. And thank you for taking the time to explain. I still am a little confused about it, but definitely have a better understanding.

To other readers:

I'm begging you not to turn this into a predestination vs. free will arguement. I will go to the mods if you do.

The purpose of this thread is to get some more perspective on issues such as servitude.

What if hell is a place for those who chose to try to please God with their own ability (works) and have to spend eternity doing just that, while those who trust God completely for their position in Him and rest in that get to do that for eternity?:hmm:

Equipped_4_Love
Sep 29th 2007, 03:12 AM
I already have an opinion on this. I just want to take the temperature, of peoples opinions on this board about the question.

BTW; Your are welcome to post long posts for other readers, but I personally will ignore anything longer than a couple of short paragraphs on this one.


Something about this question disturbs me, although I can't quite put my finger on it.

Here is my opinion, though. One of the main themes throughout Scripture is God's acceptance of man's free will, i.e. God allowing a person to CHOOSE whether or not he will serve the living God.
When a person dies, his destiny is set according to the choice he made. If God does not force a person to serve Him in this present life, He will not force that person to serve Him in the afterlife, either. Even in the afterlife, God continues to acknowledge that person's choice.
Hell is an execution of God's divine justice towards those who would not serve Him. If God were to force servitude on a person, then hell would not equal justice, as hell is a result of a person's choice.
Not only that, but hell entails eternal seperation from God. A person's relationship to God, i.e. that person's servitude towards God, does not apply in hell because that person has no connection to God anymore. He is completely and eternally seperated, which indicates that a person cannot serve God in hell.

brakelite
Sep 29th 2007, 03:16 AM
Eccl. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The doctrine of eternal torment is an abomination.
It makes God to be a torturer and to immortalise sin.
There are numerous scriptures as above that describe the dead to be utterly dead without life or knowledge. They neither praise God nor curse Him. Death is the opposite to life.

Steven3
Sep 29th 2007, 09:42 AM
Hi Mikebr
What if hell is a place for those who chose to try to please God with their own ability (works) and have to spend eternity doing just that, while those who trust God completely for their position in Him and rest in that get to do that for eternity?:hmm:

So Jacob went to Sheol-Hades for doing good? Or Christ went to Sheol-Hades (for 3 days) for trusting in his own ability? No :) Looking at a concordance the Bible shows that people go to Sheol regardless. And when Christ returns he will raise some or all of the dead from Sheol and judge the living and the dead.

The righteous receive eternal life.
The unrighteous receive destruction - body and soul.

This is all scriptural and rock solid, but for once I'm not giving the verses because a verse someone else quotes doesn't count as much as one found by oneself using a concordance. ;)
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Sep 29th 2007, 10:23 AM
Hi Mikebr

So Jacob went to Sheol-Hades for doing good? Or Christ went to Sheol-Hades (for 3 days) for trusting in his own ability? No :) Looking at a concordance the Bible shows that people go to Sheol regardless. And when Christ returns he will raise some or all of the dead from Sheol and judge the living and the dead.

The righteous receive eternal life.
The unrighteous receive destruction - body and soul.

This is all scriptural and rock solid, but for once I'm not giving the verses because a verse someone else quotes doesn't count as much as one found by oneself using a concordance. ;)
God bless
Steven

On second thoughts


Just to stay on track, some key verses ;)

DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL
Gen 2:7 the dust of the ground, became a living being
Gen 3:19 dust you are, and unto dust you will return
Gen 3:3 God: “you will die”
Gen 3:4 Serpent: “you surely will not die”
Rom 6:23 the wages of sin is death

LIVING SOUL – BREATH = DUST
Gen 7:22 the breath [spirit] of life in nostrils of animals
Job 27:3 the breath [spirit] of God in my nostrils
Job 33:4 the breath [spirit] of the Almighty gives me life
Job 34:14 withdrew his spirit… all would return to dust
Ps 104:29-30 take away their breath they return to dust
Ps 49:14,17,20 man is like the beasts that perish
Ps 146:2-4 spirit departs… man returns to the ground
Ecc 3:19-20 man has no advantage over the animal
Ecc 8:8 no man has power over the wind [breath] in the day of death
Ecc 12:7 man returns to dust, spirit [breath] returns to God who gave it

Then we need to see what the Bible teaches about HEAVEN, HELL (Sheol, not Hinnom)

[B]HEAVEN
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven
Ps 115:16 The heavens the Lord's, the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.
Heb 11:13 Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Jacob all died… did not receive what was promised
Heb 11:39-40 none of them received what was promised… not without us
Gen 37:35 Jacob went down to Sheol
Acts 2:34 David did not ascend to heaven
Acts 2:27 You will not abandon me to [Sheol]
Acts 2:31 Christ was not abandoned to [Sheol]

IN SHEOL/HADES THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING
De.31:16 Moses to rest with your fathers
- too many "sleep" "rest" "awake" verses to list
Ecc 9:5 the dead know nothing
Ecc 9:10 in the grave [Sheol] … nor knowledge
Ps 6:4-5 no one remembers you when he is dead
Ps 30:9 will the dust praise you?
Ps 88:5,10-11 remember you no more… praise you?
Isaiah 38:18 grave [Sheol] cannot praise you

Which leaves resurrection of the body (Apostles Creed, 1 Clement)

RESURRECTION, NOT HEAVEN GOING
1Sam 2:6 he brings down to [Sheol] and raises up
Job 14:12-15 hide me in [Sheol]… wait for renewal
Job 19:25-26 redeemer… in [Hebrew] my flesh I will see God
Job 33:25-26 his flesh is renewed as a childs…
Isaiah 26:14 dead… departed… do not rise…
Isaiah 26:19 but your dead will live… earth give birth
Daniel 12:2 some to everlasting life… contempt
Matt 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh… Queen of the South
Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection
Acts 23:6 hope in the resurrection of the dead
Acts 24:15 hope… resurrection of both…
Acts 26:6-8 my hope… God raises the dead.
John 5:28-29 rise to live… rise to be condemned
1Co 15:16 if the dead are not raised, then Christ…
1Co 15:23 But each in his own turn; Christ…

Then after resurrection, Judgment

SHEEP -> PARADISE / KINGDOM
Matt 8:11 East and West and sit down with Abraham Isaac & Jacob
Matt 25:34 kingdom prepared… since the foundation
Matt 26:29 until that day… in my Father’s kingdom

Luke 14:14 you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just
Luke 23:42-43 thief requests remembrance when Christ comes in his kingdom.
Rev2:7 = Gen 2:8 garden
Dan 7:18 receive the kingdom… possess it forever
Rev 5:10 kingdom and priests… reign on earth
Is 65:20-22 he who dies at a hundred… a mere youth
1Co 15:20-23 Each in his own order

GOATS -> GEHENNA
Mark 9:48 [Gehenna]... “their worm does not die”
Isaiah 66:24 dead bodies… their worm will not die
2Thess 1:7-9 blazing fire… everlasting destruction
Luke13:28 weeping… when you see Abraham…

REWARD COMES FROM HEAVEN, NOT US TO HEAVEN
Matt 5:12 great is your reward in heaven
Rev 22:12 I am coming soon… my reward is with me
John 14:2 in my Father’s house there are many rooms
John 14:3 I will come back… where I am
John 14:23 will come to him and make our home [room]
2Co 5:1 an eternal house in heaven
2Co 5:2 heavenly dwelling [dwelling from heaven]
2Co 5:3 not be found naked
2Co 5:4 do not want to be unclothed
2Co 5:10 the judgement seat of Christ
Php 3:20 our citizenship is in heaven
Php 3:20 we eagerly await a saviour from there
Php 3:11 attain to the resurrection from the dead
Php 2:16 boast on the day of Christ

That's a small sample :)
God bless
S

Amazedgrace21
Sep 29th 2007, 11:50 AM
If you mean by "serve" as in obey..then that might be appropriate...

All creation comes under the authority of God IMHO..but take the angels/demons..they still exist..and consiously rebel and refuse to submit..they fear and know God but they will not accept his authority and turn to Satan as their authority in terms of whom they will "willingly serve" correct..

They are "appointed" for specific purpose by God inthe scheme of things, so they serve a purpose in respect to how they will be allowed to function within their rebellion and this is Present tense" as well as future tense in respect to the prophecy of Revelation..there are a select group of demons "appointed" for being released to plague the earth but will not be permited to go beyond their leashes..like Job was under protection by God, from Satan..

There are restrictions to what extent they may operate..withing the scope of God's authority..so there is a purpose that God can and will use them within His design without forcing them to "serve" Him no is His authority challanged.

But their rebellion is spiritual.. it is called sin..we are all sinners..we are no different interms of that sense of "death" in terms of seperation. So this seems to be indicative of the fact God does not force anyone to "serve" Him at any time..but His authority is never an issue at all..as to if either saint, sinner demon or angel must "obey" Him in any principality..
Hell is one of those principalities

A principality where there is seperation on the level of location in terms of how it is spelled out scripturally..'a place" opposed to a state of obedience or rebellion..

So if if you mean those who may be in hell..if there is a concious state, no they will not serve God..they have rejected Him and this is the ultimate final consequence of having done so..they have chosen Satan as their Master to serve and obey ..God has simply accomondated the choice IMHO.

Christ warned urgently that no one wanted to go "to hell" as in a location..as well as "remain , as "in a spiritual state/condition"..that it was designedand created for the demons and fallen angels..not us..and it was not God's desire any should be seperated from Him.. ( location) or suffer the second death ( judgement)..sepration from his presence spiritually..as we find our condition is now..spiritually in the state of sin.

An example would be the prisons of unregenerate criminals, they must "obey and Serve" in the sense they are restricted in the degree they may continue to reject and rebell..they are under authority over them, corporately..but they have not submitted, nor serve that authority..regardless of where they are "detained" literally..

I think that is what was confusing me in respect to if the OP was about the location (of hell) or opposed to the condition of the souls/spirits occupying it at this point in time since the cross opposed to "future tense)...am still not sure which is the point of this question but hope this covers the bases for discussion..:)

enarchay
Sep 29th 2007, 12:55 PM
I believe those doomed to the lake of fire in the future will pay homage to God. From this we get:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" (Php 2:10).

Jesus is King, and whether freely, or at the edge of the sword, all will pay homage to him. That doesn't mean all will stay in his presence for an eternity, however.