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Tduncan212
Sep 29th 2007, 01:06 AM
I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.

markedward
Sep 29th 2007, 03:28 AM
Romans 13:2 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

If the law requires you to disobey God (read the Book of Daniel for examples), then don't follow them. If the law otherwise does no harm spiritually, then follow it.

th1bill
Sep 29th 2007, 03:39 AM
I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.
All of that material is copyrighted because those people feed their children on the profits.

andrewanderson
Sep 29th 2007, 09:44 AM
To answer the question in the title of your thread, "Is it a sin to download music?" It depends on if it is somethign you have already paid for/own or it you are just downloading it because you don't want to pay for it. If you are downloading it becaus eyou don't want ot pay for it then it is stealing and it is a a sin.

If you have asked for forgiveness and staopped downloading the items then God will forgive you. You may still feel guilty for what you have done but that does not mean you are not forgiven.

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

You don't have to 'feel' forgiven to be forgiven.

anglican-cat
Sep 29th 2007, 03:32 PM
Whatever does not come from faith is sin.:bible::cool:

Saved7
Sep 29th 2007, 09:22 PM
I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.

Yes anything that you got by illegal means should be gotten rid of. I got rid of a bunch of stuff that my daughters dad had given me during our time together. Some was stolen jewelery, and other stuff was jewelery he bought with drug money. I couldn't keep it knowing that the stuff was given to me through some illegal activity. And I repented of receiving it.
If you break the law, it is sin, unless the Holy Spirit is prompting you to do something like, preach the gospel where it is illegal to do so. In such cases we are commanded to obey God first. There are other examples, such as not worshipping a false god, even if it is law to do so. Just keep that sort of thing in mind and you will know what you should do in any case.:saint:

ServantofTruth
Sep 29th 2007, 09:32 PM
If you are aware that the down loads are ilegal get rid of them. But don't be too hard on yourself. Coming and sharing shows that you want to do the right thing and help others to do the same. Accepting the truth doesn't magically make us perfect, infact non of us will ever be perfect in this life however hard we try. But try we must, and improve daily. We will have set backs and make mistakes, but your post shows the direction is right. Thank you, Paul.

Joe King
Sep 29th 2007, 11:10 PM
It is just another example on how the 10 commandments are so far out of touch with day to day life. It's sad.

I'm not ragging on the OP because I'm a sinner too, but I am saying that nowadays it is so easy to sin and half the time people may not realize what they are doing. The adversary is definitely manipulating the masses.

TrustingFollower
Sep 30th 2007, 02:29 AM
I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.
If you have repented than God forgave you. He doesn't look back once he forgives. Perhaps the guilty feeling you seem to be feeling is the Holy Spirit directing you. Listen close and do as you are directed to do by the Spirit.

Sold Out
Oct 1st 2007, 03:24 PM
I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.

Are you saying that you download them illegally?

JoyInHim
Oct 1st 2007, 10:56 PM
Hi!

From what I understand (I used to work in the graphics industry which involved video and film), you are legally 'allowed' to tape a movie or anything off the TV for your own use (much like Tivo - to watch later, or watch over and over, etc). If you began selling it, that would be illegal.

Downloading music, video games, copying a tape you haven't rented or purchased - and so on...is piracy. You are getting something without paying the 'owner' his/her fair due. It's not legal (though commonly done). Same with software. Shareware is clearly marked as such, and often suggest a donation to the author.

So yes, if you want a clear conscience - toss out the 'stolen' copies. It's not worth 'free' videos if you are staying up at night with guilt!

Remember we are to treat each other the way we want to be treated - if you were the artist, you would also be entitled to your fair pay for each copy.

Cheers!


I have downloaded so much music, movies, tv shows, and video games. And have also copied the movies (just to watch) and I feel very guilty for doing this stuff. Since I have accepted Jesus Christ I have done my best to not do these things anymore. I got rid of most of the music and was wondering if I should throw out the DVDs because I feel like I am not forgiven. And I know what I did was wrong. Thank you and God Bless.

OrangeKnight
Jun 2nd 2008, 03:50 PM
My question i guess is what about copyright infringement is a sin?
Which what this thread started with, in gut I know it is but I not sure why.

Copying intellectual property isn't stealing in the sense that your not taking something doesn't belong to you in the physical sense, because the what your copying is still in the original owners hands. The reason that many believe, including myself, that copying intellectual property is a sin is your not paying any thing for it, or more importantly the author isn't being compensated.


AND now for my real question!

So here is my concern would purchasing used intellectual property ie. (CDs, Books...) be a sin? Its legal to purchase, however your still not compensating the author?

You are paying for the property, but your still not supporting the author, which I believe is the reason that copying intellectual property is primarily wrong in the first place, so wouldn't it follow that buying used music is just as wrong or no?

I personally don't know and wonder what you think?

NOTE: as an aside copying music in certain countries such as Canada and a few in Europe, is Legal; and within the United States copy right infringement isn't legally defined as "theft" as spelled out in the Supreme Court case "Dowling v. United States" Though these little pieces of information don't make it right just interesting to know.

Revinius
Jun 2nd 2008, 04:26 PM
My question i guess is what about copyright infringement is a sin?
Which what this thread started with, in gut I know it is but I not sure why.

Copying intellectual property isn't stealing in the sense that your not taking something doesn't belong to you in the physical sense, because the what your copying is still in the original owners hands. The reason that many believe, including myself, that copying intellectual property is a sin is your not paying any thing for it, or more importantly the author isn't being compensated.

If i write an essay and someone borrows it and takes my ideas is that stealing? I think it is.


So here is my concern would purchasing used intellectual property ie. (CDs, Books...) be a sin? Its legal to purchase, however your still not compensating the author?

You are paying for the property, but your still not supporting the author, which I believe is the reason that copying intellectual property is primarily wrong in the first place, so wouldn't it follow that buying used music is just as wrong or no?

I personally don't know and wonder what you think?

The CD for the music isnt what your buying, but it is the licence to play the music, same for a reciept of a website you might buy music off. Its perfectly legal to sell on a licence as long as with the original purchasing you didnt agree not to do so. This does mean if you lend a cd to a friend that you cant have an alternative copy at home for use at the same time. One licence, one person playing the music. The same goes for other products, if your friend buys a car registration he has the right to use that car in accordance with registration law for that single private vehicle. He doesnt get multiple registration plates with his purchase, only one. So for someone to assume that, because he bought the right to drive his car on the road, they can drive another car to on his rego is simply stupid.

JordanW
Jun 6th 2008, 07:10 PM
I used to download music, and now that I think about it, I feel bad about doing so, but you just have to stop doing it, and put those things in the past, and focus on moving forward. :)

Alex23
Aug 15th 2008, 04:40 PM
seems like you are kind of going a little overboard with this. It's ok to download music and stuff .. its free.:lol:

Revinius
Aug 15th 2008, 05:40 PM
seems like you are kind of going a little overboard with this. It's ok to download music and stuff .. its free.:lol:

Course it's free if you steal it.... it is called a 5-fingered discount after all. Be warned though, thievery is listed under those that will not inherit the kingdom of God...

CoffeeCat
Aug 15th 2008, 06:57 PM
There are lots of places you can legally download music and games for a small fee. Individual artists also offer some of their music tracks to download for free. For music and videos, you can visit sites like youtube, godtube or ultimatetube, and hear/see for free, legally (falls under the same legal license as taping a show off TV does).... artists on those sites often set up their own "channels" and willingly provide their videos there, for publicity and to enhance their fan base.

If ALL those options are available (and they are) then why as Christians would we want to steal the material illegally, without the consent of the government or the original artist? I also used to download music "because it was available", grew convicted of the wrongness of it, and got rid of it all. I wouldn't walk into a store and stick a CD or a DVD into my bag and walk out without paying for it, so why should I visit a website and do the same thing? I felt a lot better when I started treating intellectual property with the respect it deserves, as well as the artists with the respect they deserve, and I thank God for the forgiveness He's shown me, as well as the conviction He gave me.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 02:06 AM
I download music from youtube, and even if it is a sin, I am not condemned by my sin because I am born from above through Christ.

Downloading music does not send a person to Hell, rejecting Christ does.

A Christian should never live in condemnation, they should have peace and joy through the promises of Christ. Read John 14:1-4, and then be at peace.

RoadWarrior
Aug 18th 2008, 02:11 AM
I download music from youtube, and even if it is a sin, I am not condemned by my sin because I am born from above through Christ.

Downloading music does not send a person to Hell, rejecting Christ does.

A Christian should never live in condemnation, they should have peace and joy through the promises of Christ. Read John 14:1-4, and then be at peace.

Be careful that you do not quench the Holy Spirit who speaks within you in a still small voice.

Tanya~
Aug 18th 2008, 02:15 AM
I download music from youtube, and even if it is a sin, I am not condemned by my sin because I am born from above through Christ.

Downloading music does not send a person to Hell, rejecting Christ does.

A Christian should never live in condemnation, they should have peace and joy through the promises of Christ. Read John 14:1-4, and then be at peace.

It isn't about losing your salvation, it is about doing what is right, about obeying Jesus who taught us to do to others as we would have them do to us. If you think there will be no repercussions for sins in this life as Christians, you are mistaken!

This was written to Christians -- those who have been born from above through Christ:

2 Cor 5:9-11

Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
NKJV

amazzin
Aug 18th 2008, 02:20 AM
I download music from youtube, and even if it is a sin, I am not condemned by my sin because I am born from above through Christ.

Downloading music does not send a person to Hell, rejecting Christ does.

A Christian should never live in condemnation, they should have peace and joy through the promises of Christ. Read John 14:1-4, and then be at peace.

Ron
You steal-you sin

Unrepent sin is hell bound so think again how silly your comment was on open boards with less mature individuals reading what you say and then, them doing the same thinking it is okay!

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 03:01 AM
Ron
You steal-you sin

Unrepent sin is hell bound so think again how silly your comment was on open boards with less mature individuals reading what you say and then, them doing the same thinking it is okay!

Trust me when I tell you this my brother, downloading music from youtube will not send a born from above Saint to Hell. It's not stealing, and it's not a sin, but even it it was a sin, it is not a sin that will send a Saint to Hell, no sin sends a Saint to Hell, because every Saint's sin is covered by the blood of Christ.

If any man says he is without sin amazzin, he is a liar, 1 John 1:8-10.

Are you saying you are without sin amazzin?

ilovemetal
Aug 18th 2008, 03:40 AM
well i didn't read all the posts but here's a story.

my brothers frind called the law offic to ask the same question. (we live in canada) they didn't know so they gave him another number of someone who might know. they didn't know so they gave him a number in ottawa, (our capital) finally after many calls he talked to a guy swho first asked how he even GOT his number, then proceeded to say, downloading music isn't illegal if you don't sell it.

so basically it's not stealing, (in canada) and anyways, i make music as an art form. i'm not in it for the money, so if anyone ever wanted to DL my tunes i wouldn't care at all.

just my thoughts.

Revinius
Aug 18th 2008, 03:57 AM
Yeah, but it's not about the law of man metal. If it's taking music without Artists consent then its stealing and a sin against God (God's law is always higher).

The clinch of the matter Ron is whether or not you are repentant in your sin if you knowingly download something you know does not have the consent of the artist. Unrepentant sin shows a complete disregard for God's desire of His people and the sacrifice he made. It's like your making a point of sticking a knife into Jesus back and not caring.

Romans 6:1-14 "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sinó because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace."

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:08 AM
Yeah, but it's not about the law of man metal. If it's taking music without Artists consent then its stealing and a sin against God (God's law is always higher).

The clinch of the matter Ron is whether or not you are repentant in your sin if you knowingly download something you know does not have the consent of the artist. Unrepentant sin shows a complete disregard for God's desire of His people and the sacrifice he made. It's like your making a point of sticking a knife into Jesus back and not caring.


I don't think it is a sin to download music from youtube, but even if it is, it will not condemn me to Hell.

I am not without sin, but I am forgiven of my sin through Christ.

Revinius
Aug 18th 2008, 04:13 AM
I dont think it is from youtube as you say, because many artists put up low quality versions of their music to entice people to purchase. But.... your point about it even being a sin and you not caring because your under grace.... did you even read the Romans 6 passage i threw up?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:28 AM
I dont think it is from youtube as you say, because many artists put up low quality versions of their music to entice people to purchase. But.... your point about it even being a sin and you not caring because your under grace.... did you even read the Romans 6 passage i threw up?

Yes, I am very familiar with it. Christianity is not a license to sin, but Christians are not sin free either. We are not made righteous in the eyes of the Father through refraining from sin(we should try to, but we can't BE TOTALLY SIN FREE, or then we would no longer need Christ, we would be perfect on our own) , we are made righteous through the blood of Christ. Not by good works, but by the blood of Christ shed on Calvary.

I like having new music on my MP3, and converted youtube files are free and easy to load onto my MP3. And if I am sinning by doing this, obviously I don't care, because I keep doing it. I also watch rated R movies, and while it's a sin for everybody in my opinion, obviously I don't care or I would stop doing it. Am I going to Hell because I watched a rated R movie called Step Brothers? I highly doubt it.

Revinius
Aug 18th 2008, 04:50 AM
Ok i am confused... you said you read Romans 6... but you don't head it, you 'don't care'?

There is a massive difference between sinning unintentionally (because of our nature), and wilfully going against God. Do you not see the distinction? Because we are new in Christ, it is by Him that we can begin to combat sin. If we take the attitude that 'i don't care, and will do what i want to' then how are we any different from those without Christ? Are we showing fruit in our lives? i would say not.

Does this attitude extend to other sins? Could i go around wilfully fornicating or adulterising, sticking my middle finger to God, and still expect relationship with Him?

As the Roman 6 passage illustrates, we are dead to sin because we are alive in Christ. As such, we must live appropriate and show what Paul calls "fruit in our lives". You make a conscious decision every time you sin, sometimes that decision is affected by many variables, but there is still that decision. If you simply take the view as you say that 'i dont care, i will do what i want cos i live under grace' you are throwing the gift in His face as though it were dirt.

You have to live repentantly, showing fruit in your life, growing in godliness and shunning your own wickedness. Can you please explain to me why you can: 1. acknowledge the validity of what the Romans 6 passage is saying; while 2. maintaining the position that wilfully going against God is ok?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:04 AM
Can you please explain to me why you can: 1. acknowledge the validity of what the Romans 6 passage is saying; while 2. maintaining the position that wilfully going against God is ok?

I'm not saying it's Ok or right, I'm saying we all do it in one way or another.

Are you without sin every day? Do you do things that are wrong sometimes? I'd wager you do. And since you do, you must not care very much, or you wouldn't do it. I'll use the R rated move example for a Christian again. Does a Christian know it's wrong to watch movies with cussing, violence, and nudity? Yes they do. Do some Christians besides myself watch R rated movies from time to time? Yes they do. Is it sin? Yes. Will it send you to Hell if you watch an R rated movie? No.

We all have our stumbling blocks, and selfish things we continue to hold onto knowing that Christ would not do them, but since Christ can not sin, it makes sense as to why he would not give in to his fleshly desires as we all do at times. Christ never sinned, but we sin at times ,whether we are Christians or not. Should we be perfect as Christ was perfect? Yes we should. Are we? no we are not.

Athanasius
Aug 18th 2008, 05:09 AM
This sort of thinking is going to cause brothers and sisters to trip, stumble and fall.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:19 AM
This sort of thinking is going to cause brothers and sisters to trip, stumble and fall.

It's a reality in today's average Christian life. I have watched R rated movies with my former pastor on DVD, and I'd wager most other Christians do at times as well. Secular movies are secular movies no matter how you slice it, so secular PG movies are bad as well in their own right.

Legalism saves no man. Again, to say we are without sin is a lie, 1 John 1:8.

Revinius
Aug 18th 2008, 05:31 AM
I'm not saying it's Ok or right, I'm saying we all do it in one way or another.

Are you without sin every day? Do you do things that are wrong sometimes? I'd wager you do. And since you do, you must not care very much, or you wouldn't do it. I'll use the R rated move example for a Christian again. Does a Christian know it's wrong to watch movies with cussing, violence, and nudity? Yes they do. Do some Christians besides myself watch R rated movies from time to time? Yes they do. Is it sin? Yes. Will it send you to Hell if you watch an R rated movie? No.

We all have our stumbling blocks, and selfish things we continue to hold onto knowing that Christ would not do them, but since Christ can not sin, it makes sense as to why he would not give in to his fleshly desires as we all do at times. Christ never sinned, but we sin at times ,whether we are Christians or not. Should we be perfect as Christ was perfect? Yes we should. Are we? no we are not.

But back to the distinction i highlighted. There is a difference between struggling with sin and wilfully going out and seeking to do it. If and when you download music that is illegal, you are making a conscious choice, when you listen to it you are reinforcing that choice over and over. Now an unbeliever may feel perhaps momentary guilt but then become numb to it over time. A Christian who has the spirit dwelling within, will be forced to a cross road of choice every time he is met with that thing he knows is sin.

The distinction is not whether we sin, that is without doubt, but it's our attitude to that sin when we meet and attempt to war against it. Before we met Christ, sin wasnt sin, but now we are saved.... sin is serious... we should want to please and make Christ proud in our relationship with Him. What i see in your writings (correct me if i am wrong) is someone who doesnt treat their personal sin seriously, someone who comes to the cross-roads everytime and everytime tells Christ to go away. If i am correct in this assessment (i hope i am not) then this is dangerous ground on which to choose to stand. Do you understand what i am getting at?

Athanasius
Aug 18th 2008, 05:35 AM
It's a reality in today's average Christian life. I have watched R rated movies with my former pastor on DVD, and I'd wager most other Christians do at times as well. Secular movies are secular movies no matter how you slice it, so secular PG movies are bad as well in their own right.

Legalism saves no man. Again, to say we are without sin is a lie, 1 John 1:8.

Then shame on your pastor. As a hypocrite I'm going to speak to you a truth: you shouldn't be watching R rated movies. I use the word hypocrite because I made the bad decision of tagging along with people from work to watch Tropic Thunder. I then further made the bad decision not to walk out of the theater because of what they would think.

Oh, what a witness for Christ! You see.. I screw up, big time. And in the position I'm in, it's a very bad thing for me to be screwing up - I need a kick in the head a few times. But I don't go out intentionally sinning, I try to flee from it. The attitude being brought into this thread is almost inviting.

See what comes to my mind isn't "One sin isn't going to separate us from God, we're covered under the blood!" One sin, two sin, three sins... A lot of sins. Sin isn't just an action, by the way, it's a part of us.

The implications comes strolling out:

So if I do 'X' and it's a sin, I can do 'Y'...
If I do 'A' and it's a sin, I can do 'B'...
If I do 'C' and it's a sin, I can do 'D'...
If I do 'E' and it's a sin, I can do 'F'...

Right? Sin, intentional or not, don't separate us from Christ. Not even if we repeat them, because we're covered!!!! No... Don't think so. Here's where people to OSAS and 'greasy grace' theology to the extreme.

Jesus said in John 14:15 that if you love Him, you will follow His commandments. Those commandments are the entirety of scripture. Part of that entirety says to live as we've died and been resurrected with [in] Christ. I highly doubt being resurrected with Christ involves the thought process: "I'm protected by the blood!... Some little sins are okay".

Don't scream legalism, I ain't preaching it.

Tanya~
Aug 18th 2008, 03:34 PM
Someone who is a child of God will be chastened for their sin. God deals with us when we sin but if we go on sinning willfully, then we are shutting God out and not allowing Him to do His sanctifying work in our lives.

We will be held accountable for everything we do, both good and bad, and this is motivation for us to do what is good.


Jer 7:8-11
8 "Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. 9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, 10 and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'? 11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," says the LORD.
NKJV

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:26 PM
We will be held accountable for everything we do, both good and bad, and this is motivation for us to do what is good.


Exactly.

Our heavenly Father is still our Father no matter if we sin or not, if we are in Christ, but since we love our Father, we should want to please him by doing what is good and holy, and refraining from sin as best we can. Sad thing is, even as Christians who love our heavenly Father, we disobey him from time, just like as children growing up into mature adults, we disobeyed our earthly father as well from time to time. This however did not mean we were no longer our fathers child because we disobeyed him, it just meant we were due for some serious correction. I got spanked with dad's home made giant wooden paddle darn near every day growing up as a child, because me and my brother fought constantly, but I never stopped being my father's son, even though I disobeyed him very often when I was growing up to full maturity.

Do I watch R rated movies from time to time? Yes.

Do I download music from youtube from time to time? Yes.

Am I going to Hell for this? No.

Am am born from above through Christ Jesus, one of the Elect, I am my heavenly Father's adopted son through Christ Jesus no matter how many songs I download from youtube.

amazzin
Aug 18th 2008, 05:26 PM
Are you saying you are without sin amazzin?

Don't be silly Ron. You know the answer to that question or they would have kicked me out long ago from this place.

Buck shot
Aug 18th 2008, 06:14 PM
Exactly.

Our heavenly Father is still our Father no matter if we sin or not, if we are in Christ, but since we love our Father, we should want to please him by doing what is good and holy, and refraining from sin as best we can. Sad thing is, even as Christians who love our heavenly Father, we disobey him from time, just like as children growing up into mature adults, we disobeyed our earthly father as well from time to time. This however did not mean we were no longer our fathers child because we disobeyed him, it just meant we were due for some serious correction. I got spanked with dad's home made giant wooden paddle darn near every day growing up as a child, because me and my brother fought constantly, but I never stopped being my father's son, even though I disobeyed him very often when I was growing up to full maturity.

Do I watch R rated movies from time to time? Yes.

Do I download music from youtube from time to time? Yes.

Am I going to Hell for this? No.

Am am born from above through Christ Jesus, one of the Elect, I am my heavenly Father's adopted son through Christ Jesus no matter how many songs I download from youtube.

If you know it is sin and still chose to do it, and then don't even think you need to repent of it how can you call yourself a son? Jesus died to pay for sin. He did not die so you could sin.

I have always believed in the security of the saint (children of the King) but how can you call yourself a saint if you use the liberty to do what Jesus died to pay for so easily?

I believe this is where you cross a line and are in danger of judgement :cry:

And yes I am a sinner, one who hurts to the point of tears when I realize I have stumbled and know that I must repent again and turn from it.

A single sin will never send a child of the King to Hell but rebelliosly choosing to do what you know you should not and being okay with it makes it a lifestyle of sin, and this God said will not enter into Heaven.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 07:13 PM
If you know it is sin and still chose to do it, and then don't even think you need to repent of it how can you call yourself a son? Jesus died to pay for sin. He did not die so you could sin.

I have always believed in the security of the saint (children of the King) but how can you call yourself a saint if you use the liberty to do what Jesus died to pay for so easily?

I believe this is where you cross a line and are in danger of judgement :cry:

And yes I am a sinner, one who hurts to the point of tears when I realize I have stumbled and know that I must repent again and turn from it.

A single sin will never send a child of the King to Hell but rebelliosly choosing to do what you know you should not and being okay with it makes it a lifestyle of sin, and this God said will not enter into Heaven.

As I have stated, I don't think downloading music from youtube is a sin, but I think watching secular movies is a sin. Even the secular PG movies have cussing and some mild sexual themes in them at times. I see nowhere in scripture that leads me to believe a Christian will go to Hell for watching secular movies, and I am willing to bet my soul on it.

CoffeeCat
Aug 18th 2008, 07:24 PM
As I have stated, I don't think downloading music from youtube is a sin, but I think watching secular movies is a sin. Even the secular PG movies have cussing and some mild sexual themes in them at times. I see nowhere in scripture that leads me to believe a Christian will go to Hell for watching secular movies, and I am willing to bet my soul on it.

Ron, just because Christians sin, should we delight in the sin and continue to do it, without repentance? Yes or no?

And even if sin will not lead us to Hell, have you considered where it does lead us? It leads us into disobedience, into an uncaring attitude towards whether we sin or not; it leads us into indifference, and numbness to the conviction we feel. Christ's sacrifice was not made so that we can KEEP ON WILLINGLY sinning, brother. It was made so we'd turn to Him, let Him lead us, so we'd repent and live with a heart of repentance.

Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should; just because we're INCLINED to do something doesn't mean we should. It shouldn't be about what we can get away with. It should be about how we can best serve God. About how best we can lead our brothers and sisters in Christ closer TO Christ.

Happily watching an R-Rated movie serves you. Not God. Would you agree?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 07:53 PM
Happily watching an R-Rated movie serves you. Not God. Would you agree?

I agree 100%.

But all Christians do things in the flesh every day, we aren't even close to perfect.

The apostle Paul constantly said he was filthy and not worthy to be called a child of God, and yet he was a better Christian then any of us ever will be, and the apostle Paul is not our example, Christ is.

You can't pick and chose through legalism what to refrain from, and what not to refrain from, and expect to be somehow righteous through your own code of ethics. We all sin daily in one way or the other, but we should not live in condemnation of our sins if we are in Christ. Watching secular movies is not living in un-repented sin, nor is downloading music from time to time from youtube.

As a Christian we do not live in sin, but we do sin sometimes.

I know a handful of Christians who never watch any secular movies at all, but most of the Christians I know go to the movies and rent and buy DVD's quite often. And none of them are going to Hell for it.

CoffeeCat
Aug 18th 2008, 08:23 PM
If you could just answer one question, please.... do you sin because you take it for granted that Christians sin, or do you believe that although we sin, we should repent of it (turn from our sin)? There's a difference between sinning and repenting of it, then asking for forgiveness... and sinning, thinking "it's okay, everyone does it".

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 08:34 PM
If you could just answer one question, please.... do you sin because you take it for granted that Christians sin, or do you believe that although we sin, we should repent of it (turn from our sin)? There's a difference between sinning and repenting of it, then asking for forgiveness... and sinning, thinking "it's okay, everyone does it".

I agree we should repent 100% from all of our sins, but in reality, we do not. If we did, we would no longer sin, and no longer need Christ. Repent in the Greek manuscripts is "metanoeo"- which means to "to change one's mind for the better towards his past sins." Repenting in the Greek is not no longer sinning at all, we all sin sometimes.

The repentent sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness. You can't accept forgiveness through grace, if you do not repent(change your mind)about your sins.

Athanasius
Aug 19th 2008, 01:28 AM
That's interesting logic.
If we stopped sinning we would no longer need Christ... So keep sinning.

Huh. Want to reply to what I said above, though?

Tanya~
Aug 19th 2008, 02:55 AM
Tduncan, :hug:

Your feelings of guilt are not bad, they are good because they can help you to stop doing what you're doing. There are two different kinds of guilt. One kind just feels awful but doesn't produce anything. The other kind feels awful and becomes a motivation to change, to clear your conscience, and start living in a way that is pleasing to God. Yes, throw away the DVDs that you stole, stop stealing, ask forgiveness, and believe the promise that "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9. By the way, read all of 1 John, it is meant as an encouragement to us to not sin.


Ron,

Here's the thing. You're talking about downloading Youtube and watching R rated movies. Is it illegal to download from Youtube? If not, then it's not a sin to download from Youtube. Is it a sin to watch an R rated movie? That all depends. It may or may not, depending on the movie and your conscience and how each movie affects you spiritually. But you are not listening to what the Tduncan said. He feels guilty because he knows he is stealing by downloading movies, TV shows, video games and music illegally. He knows he has done wrong, feels convicted, and needs some godly counsel about it.

If God is convicting him in his conscience, you do him a disservice by justifying your own actions that are similar. Please let's not derail this thread by justifying questionable things and turning it into an academic debate, and let's just keep it on the topic started by Tduncan.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:15 AM
Ron,

If God is convicting him in his conscience, you do him a disservice by justifying your own actions that are similar. Please let's not derail this thread by justifying questionable things and turning it into an academic debate, and let's just keep it on the topic started by Tduncan.

Thing is though, I'm not so sure what he has done is considered stealing according to scripture?

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 05:26 AM
Thing is though, I'm not so sure what he has done is considered stealing according to scripture?

When someone is feeling guilty, maybe it is better to ask questions and find out the deeper issue. Youtube is not the only place to download music.

It was once a wide open gate and people downloaded all sorts of stuff from the internet that they should not have done. This loophole has been legally closed for the most part. If you had downloaded stuff from back then, you would be guilty of having stolen from the artists.

If God is dealing with a person over a sin, that is between the person and God. He once dealt with me over a couple dollars of change from a grocery store, when the cashier had given me too much change. God would not let me rest, until I went back and tried to return it. (they wouldn't accept it at that point, it was too small to do the paperwork I guess). The important thing was that I had to obey God, and He was clearly speaking to me.

So if your conscience is clear, then good. But if another person is struggling with something bothering their conscience, don't be too quick to tell them not to worry about it. God might be calling that person to a deeper place in their walk with Him.

If you are really blessed, He will do that with you also, one day.

Heb 12:5-9
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
NKJV

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 06:07 AM
When someone is feeling guilty, maybe it is better to ask questions and find out the deeper issue. Youtube is not the only place to download music.

It was once a wide open gate and people downloaded all sorts of stuff from the internet that they should not have done. This loophole has been legally closed for the most part. If you had downloaded stuff from back then, you would be guilty of having stolen from the artists.

If God is dealing with a person over a sin, that is between the person and God. He once dealt with me over a couple dollars of change from a grocery store, when the cashier had given me too much change. God would not let me rest, until I went back and tried to return it. (they wouldn't accept it at that point, it was too small to do the paperwork I guess). The important thing was that I had to obey God, and He was clearly speaking to me.

So if your conscience is clear, then good. But if another person is struggling with something bothering their conscience, don't be too quick to tell them not to worry about it. God might be calling that person to a deeper place in their walk with Him.

If you are really blessed, He will do that with you also, one day.

Heb 12:5-9
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
NKJV

A man's conscious does not determine what sin is, the Word of God does.

I can justify anything I want to do according to my own conscious, but I can't justify I want to do according to the word of God.

RoadWarrior
Aug 19th 2008, 02:48 PM
A man's conscious does not determine what sin is, the Word of God does.

I can justify anything I want to do according to my own conscious, but I can't justify I want to do according to the word of God.

God gave us the conscience - it is part of how He lets us know when we are headed the wrong direction. The problem is that you can ignore the conscience, over and over, and it gets weaker and weaker.

When children are brought up in God's ways, and are taught God's thoughts, then the conscience is strong and healthy. This keeps the child from falling into deeper problems as they grow into adults. And untrained or mis-trained conscience might not function in a way to keep you safe.

This is why it is so important not only to know God's word, but also to apply it to your life. As we walk in obedience to what we know to be true, we are given more wisdom. If we reject and ignore the warnings, we are weakening our own defense system.

NiC is a forum for new Christians. In this forum we seek to help you come to the next step in your Christian growth and walk.

The one being discussed in this thread is extremely important. It is about that sense of guilt (your conscience speaking to you). What do we do with the guilt? It is important to examine it and see whether God is calling you to a more pure lifestyle.

There is always the possibility that a person is experiencing false guilt, and if so then we try to help them find truth, and know what it means to be free in Christ.

But we moderators on this board will never treat sin lightly. God hates sin. He loves His children. He wants us to grow up before Him in truth and beauty. This begins by being obedient to what we already know He is speaking to us.

Tanya~
Aug 19th 2008, 02:51 PM
Thing is though, I'm not so sure what he has done is considered stealing according to scripture?

There is no difference between "stealing according to Scripture" and any other kind of stealing. Downloading a movie or music is stealing, just the same as taking the DVD or CD out of a store. Just because it's easier to get away with it by downloading doesn't mean it's any less stealing.

faithfulfriend
Aug 19th 2008, 02:56 PM
There is no difference between "stealing according to Scripture" and any other kind of stealing. Downloading a movie or music is stealing, just the same as taking the DVD or CD out of a store. Just because it's easier to get away with it by downloading doesn't mean it's any less stealing.

1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Definition of a thief:

a stealer (literally or figuratively):--thief.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 04:51 PM
There is no difference between "stealing according to Scripture" and any other kind of stealing. Downloading a movie or music is stealing, just the same as taking the DVD or CD out of a store.

It is? So, when people buy music, and then download that music so that others can download it it's stealing? It was bought first, and then downloaded. How is this stealing? When a television network buys the rights to a sporting event, and then I watch the sporting event on TV, am I stealing, I didn't pay to watch the sporting event, the TV network did, and I watched it for free.

Revinius
Aug 19th 2008, 04:55 PM
It is? So, when people buy music, and then download that music so that others can download it it's stealing? It was bought first, and then downloaded. How is this stealing? When a television network buys the rights to a sporting event, and then I watch the sporting event on TV, am I stealing, I didn't pay to watch the sporting event, the TV network did, and I watched it for free.

The problem with that is, when you buy a copy of music it is (unless otherwise stated) only for your personal listening use. You have purchased one copy and thus one licence to play, you are welcome to give your copy to a friend if you no longer wish to enjoy it yourself as the 'licence' can be given to them.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 04:58 PM
God gave us the conscience - it is part of how He lets us know when we are headed the wrong direction. The problem is that you can ignore the conscience, over and over, and it gets weaker and weaker.


Sin has nothing to do with the human conscious, which is why Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, and why even still today, mankind murders, rapes, and pillages daily around the World.

A man's conscious will allow him to murder another man, or to sodomize another man, but Gods word says otherwise.

Your conscious will lie to you sometimes, and allow you to sin, but God's word will never lie to you concerning sin.

God's word defines what is sin, and what is not sin, not the human conscious.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:02 PM
The problem with that is, when you buy a copy of music it is (unless otherwise stated) only for your personal listening use. You have purchased one copy and thus one licence to play, you are welcome to give your copy to a friend if you no longer wish to enjoy it yourself as the 'licence' can be given to them.

It is? So, when I play my music out loud, that I bought, and the rest of my family hears it, are they stealing? I bought it for my personal use, and yet my family heard it too? My family are a bunch of thieves, and I'll be sure to let them know now. Thanks you guys.;)

Tanya~
Aug 19th 2008, 05:20 PM
It is?

Yes! Are you familiar with the term "copyright?" That means that the right to copy the material is reserved and just anyone can't make copies, not even for personal use, because this diminishes the profits for those who own the copyright. It is stealing money from someone who had the right to copy and sell the material, because you got and are using the material without paying for it. That's stealing.


So, when people buy music, and then download that music so that others can download it it's stealing?Yes, because the person who bought the music did not buy the copyright. They do not have the right to copy and distribute the music, not even if they are giving the music away free.


It was bought first, and then downloaded. How is this stealing?All the people who want that music are supposed to go out and buy their own if they want their own copy. This is how the musicians and producers make their money. When you copy and distribute the music, you are stealing from the people who own the copyright.


When a television network buys the rights to a sporting event, and then I watch the sporting event on TV, am I stealing, I didn't pay to watch the sporting event, the TV network did, and I watched it for free.No, that's not stealing because the TV show was sold to the broadcaster for the purpose of broadcasting it so you could watch. It's the same if you listen to music on the radio or online.

Maybe this link will help. It explains why downloading without permission of the copyright owner is illegal and why doing it is risky.

Downloading: Legal or Illegal? (http://www.worldstart.com/tips/tips.php/4046)

Revinius
Aug 19th 2008, 05:41 PM
It is? So, when I play my music out loud, that I bought, and the rest of my family hears it, are they stealing? I bought it for my personal use, and yet my family heard it too? My family are a bunch of thieves, and I'll be sure to let them know now. Thanks you guys.;)

If you are playing that music then theres no problem there (dont get me into a battle of semantics). But if your friend has a ripped copy from you (and hasnt bought the right to play that copy himself) then that is stealing on his part with you as an accessory. It's piracy and can't be explained away as 'not stealing' no matter how many analogies you wanna make up to justify the sin.

Ron Brown
Aug 19th 2008, 05:57 PM
If you are playing that music then theres no problem there (dont get me into a battle of semantics). But if your friend has a ripped copy from you (and hasnt bought the right to play that copy himself) then that is stealing on his part with you as an accessory. It's piracy and can't be explained away as 'not stealing' no matter how many analogies you wanna make up to justify the sin.

Then it looks like I'm a saved youtube music thief.

Now next question is, can a born from above Christian who steals music from youtube go to Hell for it?

Have I lost my salvation due to my youtube sins?

ilovemetal
Aug 19th 2008, 07:15 PM
Yeah, but it's not about the law of man metal. If it's taking music without Artists consent then its stealing and a sin against God (God's law is always higher).


ah. a good point.
the only rebutle i could offer is: i wouldn't consider it stealing because it's art. which simple means something different to me than maybe it does for you.

like i said, if i make music, it's not for money. it's for people to appreciate, and if they like it it's theirs. anyone that makes music for money is missing the point of music, imo.

that being said, it takes money to record, press cd's and so forth, so then, my theory is almost botched. but again, when i'm passionate about my art i'll invest everything i have into it with no expectaions of return.

for instance i wrote a book. if i put it on bittorrent and people dl's it and read it i would be stolked. even though it took me 5 months to write and 4 months to edit and hundreds of dollars to press, it wouldn't phase me.

thus i do agree with you , God law is above the rest, but stealing music to me is an oxymoron.

so yeah./ that's all i got.
word up man.

ilovemetal
Aug 19th 2008, 07:33 PM
Downloading a movie or music is stealing, just the same as taking the DVD or CD out of a store. Just because it's easier to get away with it by downloading doesn't mean it's any less stealing.

ah. this actually changed my perspective.

now i'm torn. mind you i've always been torn between the two (see last post)
it's true though. stealing is slealing. end of story.

hah. oh man. well, and to be honest, no lie, i have bought most of the music as of late. if not all. maybe not the new dragonforce.....;)

Tanya~
Aug 19th 2008, 07:55 PM
Hi metal,

I understand your personal philosophy and for that reason you probably wouldn't ever want to go commercial and sell out. That's fine, but the point is your music IS your music and you are the one who decides what is going to be done with it. What if somebody really liked your music and decided to record it and start selling it? Wouldn't you say, "Hey, they stole my song!!"? Of course you would because it was your song and you made it for people to freely enjoy, not for someone to take it and commercialize it.

So when someone does make their own work and offer it for sale, it is perfectly reasonable that they have the right to decide how it's sold and distributed. They want to make money on their work, so they should have the right to do that. If they offer it for sale and someone takes it without paying, then they have stolen it.

ilovemetal
Aug 19th 2008, 08:02 PM
Hi metal,

I understand your personal philosophy and for that reason you probably wouldn't ever want to go commercial and sell out. That's fine, but the point is your music IS your music and you are the one who decides what is going to be done with it. What if somebody really liked your music and decided to record it and start selling it? Wouldn't you say, "Hey, they stole my song!!"? Of course you would because it was your song and you made it for people to freely enjoy, not for someone to take it and commercialize it.

So when someone does make their own work and offer it for sale, it is perfectly reasonable that they have the right to decide how it's sold and distributed. They want to make money on their work, so they should have the right to do that. If they offer it for sale and someone takes it without paying, then they have stolen it.

totally. however i never condoned pirating and selling. 100% easily undebatablly wrong.;)

i like this post. i'm leaning towards 100% pay. even with transit:B sometimes i sneak on the back of the bus. (not sneak like that but- the doors open, and your allowed on if you have a pass, which i don't-that sneak)

that's wrong too.

Tanya~
Aug 19th 2008, 08:11 PM
Here's a Scripture passage for us all to ponder, I hope it is an encouragement to you:


Luke 16:10-12
10 He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. 11 Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, who will give you what is your own?
NKJV

ilovemetal
Aug 20th 2008, 02:04 AM
i had to look up NIV. i'm a little slow.

Luke 16:10-12 (New International Version)

10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

ps. great verse. :D

Revinius
Aug 20th 2008, 05:30 AM
Then it looks like I'm a saved youtube music thief.

Now next question is, can a born from above Christian who steals music from youtube go to Hell for it?

Have I lost my salvation due to my youtube sins?

If your sinning unrepentantly then one has to wonder whether you are born again.... no offence but that's the catch 22.

Revinius
Aug 20th 2008, 05:31 AM
ah. this actually changed my perspective.

now i'm torn. mind you i've always been torn between the two (see last post)
it's true though. stealing is slealing. end of story.

hah. oh man. well, and to be honest, no lie, i have bought most of the music as of late. if not all. maybe not the new dragonforce.....;)

If you give permission it's cool (unless your under a contract with record company and they deserve a cut).

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 07:18 PM
If your sinning unrepentantly then one has to wonder whether you are born again.... no offence but that's the catch 22.

Well then I guess due to my youtube sin, I am not saved, because I am going to add more songs to my MP3 from youtube in the future. I will also say a few curse words in the future when I get upset, so I am in big trouble.

Between the youtube music, and the occasional curse word, I am doomed to Hell for sure.:cry:

RoadWarrior
Aug 20th 2008, 07:59 PM
Well then I guess due to my youtube sin, I am not saved, because I am going to add more songs to my MP3 from youtube in the future. I will also say a few curse words in the future when I get upset, so I am in big trouble.

Between the youtube music, and the occasional curse word, I am doomed to Hell for sure.:cry:

I'm going to assume that you are being sarcastic here. If you are downloading music that is offered as free, that is something different from piracy.

What concerns me, though (and this is just me speaking) is that you seem to be planning to do something which you know goes against your conscience. You use the phrases "I will" and "I am going to" -- when you know clearly that you would be offending the Lord who so graciously saved you so that you do not have to be in bondage to sin. We should not be planning to sin, but to repent from sin and to walk in holiness before God.

Ro 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. NKJV


Cursing is a habit, and might be hard to break, but most of us have been successful. If in an extreme state of distress we slip and say something unclean, we are remorseful, we ask those around us to forgive us, and we ask God to do so. It might seem to be a small thing, but God does not despise the small things, they are important to Him.

These are not "salvation" issues. But they are important in the life and walk of a Christian who is desiring to be found pleasing in the eyes of the Lord. Our walk is not just about us, or just "between me and the Lord" because our life is a testimony to the world. We should look and sound different from those who do not belong to Jesus.

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 09:34 PM
I'm going to assume that you are being sarcastic here. If you are downloading music that is offered as free, that is something different from piracy.

What concerns me, though (and this is just me speaking) is that you seem to be planning to do something which you know goes against your conscience. You use the phrases "I will" and "I am going to" -- when you know clearly that you would be offending the Lord who so graciously saved you so that you do not have to be in bondage to sin. We should not be planning to sin, but to repent from sin and to walk in holiness before God.

Ro 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. NKJV


Cursing is a habit, and might be hard to break, but most of us have been successful. If in an extreme state of distress we slip and say something unclean, we are remorseful, we ask those around us to forgive us, and we ask God to do so. It might seem to be a small thing, but God does not despise the small things, they are important to Him.

These are not "salvation" issues. But they are important in the life and walk of a Christian who is desiring to be found pleasing in the eyes of the Lord. Our walk is not just about us, or just "between me and the Lord" because our life is a testimony to the world. We should look and sound different from those who do not belong to Jesus.

Very wise post.

My point all along has been that I don't live in sin as a Christian, but when I either slip up and sin, or even sometimes sin on purpose due to bad habits, I am not condemned to damnation because of my sins, they have been forgiven.

Christianity is not a liscense to sin, but a Christian is also forgiven of their sins, so they will not go to Hell because of their sins, they are covered by the blood of Christ.

RoadWarrior
Aug 20th 2008, 09:47 PM
Very wise post.

My point all along has been that I don't live in sin as a Christian, but when I either slip up and sin, or even sometimes sin on purpose due to bad habits, I am not condemned to damnation because of my sins, they have been forgiven.

Christianity is not a liscense to sin, but a Christian is also forgiven of their sins, so they will not go to Hell because of their sins, they are covered by the blood of Christ.

Well said. (and thank you for the compliment) I think it is important here on the board, and especially in New in Christ forum, that we are careful about how we post. This needs to be a safe and nurturing place for people who are just learning about what it means, what it looks like, to be a Christian.

Therefore, I see three things as being important in a thread such as this.

1. Show what God's standard is for the issue.

2. Show how God has mercy when we fail to meet His standard, and how we can grow in wisdom and stature toward that standard.

3. Do it while being a visual and written depiction of the love of Christ. As Paul said to his followers, "you are my epistles". So are we all, living epistles for the testimony of Jesus.

Sarcasm, accusations and jokes are frequently used in the threads frequented by people who have been studying the Bible for a longer time, such as Bible Chat, A&E, Contro, ETC, and others. That is fine, perhaps, over there. But this is more like coming into the children's church portion of the board. We need to be sensitive to that fact.

When we are in Christians Answer, the focus is on what it takes for a non-Christian to become a Christian. Once a person knows that, and makes that change in their heart and life, they get to come to NiC as a new believer.

In working with new believers, we need to be clear about the difference between what it takes for salvation, vs. what it takes to live a Godly life. A new believer should not be worrying about whether they can "lose" the gift. They need to focus on what it takes to grow.

Thank you for your participation in NiC. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Ron Brown
Aug 20th 2008, 10:15 PM
Well said. (and thank you for the compliment) I think it is important here on the board, and especially in New in Christ forum, that we are careful about how we post. This needs to be a safe and nurturing place for people who are just learning about what it means, what it looks like, to be a Christian.

Therefore, I see three things as being important in a thread such as this.

1. Show what God's standard is for the issue.

2. Show how God has mercy when we fail to meet His standard, and how we can grow in wisdom and stature toward that standard.

3. Do it while being a visual and written depiction of the love of Christ. As Paul said to his followers, "you are my epistles". So are we all, living epistles for the testimony of Jesus.

Sarcasm, accusations and jokes are frequently used in the threads frequented by people who have been studying the Bible for a longer time, such as Bible Chat, A&E, Contro, ETC, and others. That is fine, perhaps, over there. But this is more like coming into the children's church portion of the board. We need to be sensitive to that fact.

When we are in Christians Answer, the focus is on what it takes for a non-Christian to become a Christian. Once a person knows that, and makes that change in their heart and life, they get to come to NiC as a new believer.

In working with new believers, we need to be clear about the difference between what it takes for salvation, vs. what it takes to live a Godly life. A new believer should not be worrying about whether they can "lose" the gift. They need to focus on what it takes to grow.

Thank you for your participation in NiC. I look forward to reading more of your posts.


You are correct, I was being way to sarcastic for a new convert thread.

Thanks for your patience and kind words.:hug: