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Bing
Oct 2nd 2007, 07:25 AM
I was stunned to find out the other day that Mary (the one from the Bible, Jesus' mother, the one Catholics are all into) prays for me.

No, bear me out. It surprised me as much as it surprises you. In fact, this isn't at all either a Controversial Issue or even a World Religions thing, but I put it here for safekeeping. It's actually in the Bible, as clear as day. Perhaps if a moderator or admin (for I am a minimod, though I don't feel like overstepping my bounds on this one) wants to, they can shift this to Bible Chat?

Anyhow. How did I come to such a conclusion as the shocking title suggests? Is it biblical?

Of course it is. Mary prays for me. So does Saint Peter. So does Saint John. So does Saint Andrew. So does every single saint that a Catholic has ever sought a prayer from. Now you see why I stuck this in World Religions, eh?

But actually, I don't think this is a Catholic doctrine or a heresy at all. What is a Catholic asking when he or she asks Mary to pray for him or her? Well, it seems to me that this Catholic is addressing one of the Hebrews 12:1 cloud of witnesses and asking for her intercession. Is this okay?

Hebrews 7:25 tells us what Jesus is up to right now: He is interceding for us. That's cool.

What are the saints (as in, the redeemed who have shuffled off the mortal coil and are in heaven) doing right now? Revelation 5:13 has every creature in heaven and on earth worshipping the Lord. Whether that's now or later depends on your eschatology. Even without this, I think it would be fair to assume that Mary (and everybody else in heaven) is occupied in communing with the Lord on a fairly regular basis.

Revelation 6:9-10 depicts the saints in heaven crying out to the Lord and interceding for His judgement to come upon the earth. That means that the martyred (and presumably just plain dead) saints from all of history are in heaven now interceding for us.

So basically, it comes down to that old Wesley number, O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing, noting that our God is praised by "the church in earth and heaven." It might be a little redundant, but are the Catholics really committing a cardinal vice by asking a dead saint to pray for them when she is (by all biblical evidence) already doing so?

And is Mary praying for us, along with the rest of that great cloud of witnesses?

I am not a Catholic, and I do not want this thread to devolve into a discussion of any other Catholic doctrines that may or may not be heretical. This idea gave me pause for thought, and I'm looking for feedback. Replies consisting of, "Yes...but the Catholics also do such-and-such" will not be tolerated. Let's take a good hard look at this one, people. Thanks for your input.

Duane Morse
Oct 2nd 2007, 07:33 AM
You fail to say how you 'found out the other day' that Mary pray's for you.

And, you fail to mention a scripture that would support that fact, since Mary is dead and buried and we normally can have no contact with the dead.

Sorry, but Hebrews 12:1 just doesn't do it for me.
A single verse that is so vague as that, well, seems like straw clutching.

pmckelvy
Oct 2nd 2007, 07:39 AM
My personal belief is that the saints are not yet ascended, but that aside, what you have presented makes sense. Looking at it that way presents a question... Should we ask them to pray for us though? That's where I have the problem.

Duane Morse
Oct 2nd 2007, 07:48 AM
1Titus 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Sold Out
Oct 2nd 2007, 01:10 PM
Sorry, but Hebrews 12:1 just doesn't do it for me.
A single verse that is so vague as that, well, seems like straw clutching.

Correct. That verse in no way proves that those who have gone on before us intercede for us.

GothicAngel
Oct 2nd 2007, 01:18 PM
And, you fail to mention a scripture that would support that fact, since Mary is dead and buried and we normally can have no contact with the dead.



1. Mary's body is dead it is true*.

But her spirit (which is what is praying for us) is alive in heaven, is that not true? Arent the saved in heaven spiritually alive?

And ps before anyone starts to go on about necromancy, praying to Mary, and her praying for us is not contacting the dead. We are not contacting her, we are not physically speaking with her.

2. Mary currently is all spirit. *

The anegls are also all spirit.

In the bible, Gabriel comes down to visit Mary. He speaks to her. There are visions of anegls all across the OT.

If the angels, who are spirits in heaven, can help us, than why cannot Mary, who si also a spirit in heavne? Whats the difference?

*with the Protestant beliefs, to make it easier

Jeanne D
Oct 2nd 2007, 01:32 PM
With all due respect, Mary is no different than any one of us who are believers in Christ.
Yes she was very blessed to have been the mother of Jesus, I don't dispute that, but she needed a Savior also, and I don't find any scripture to support the idea that the dead intercede for us.

I mean no offense when I say that I believe our focus should be on Jesus, not Mary or anyone else.


Jeanne

Toymom
Oct 2nd 2007, 02:05 PM
The belief that dead people are currently alive in a place called heaven is debatable and not held by all Christians.
The Bible says that when we die we will be with the Lord.
It does not say that immediately after we die, we will be alive in a physical or spiritual place called heaven watching and listening to living people and passing their prayers on to God.
The book of Revelation is symbolic and does not have a definite time frame assigned to it's contents. In fact, Rev. 6:9 occurs when the fifth seal is opened and to my understanding that has not happened yet.
The Bible does not give a lot of detail about what happens to people after they die.

Frances
Oct 2nd 2007, 05:10 PM
I was stunned to find out the other day that Mary . . .prays for me.

and at that point you would have been well advised to check your Bible, where you would have discovered that there is no communion between the living and the dead. . . Mary being dead, completely separated from this world. The only one who prays for you and for the rest of us individually, if we are Christians, is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bing
Oct 2nd 2007, 09:46 PM
Ah, here's my can of worms! No, but seriously folks, I'm taking this topic seriously. In turn, here are my responses to the objections that have thus far come up:

First, I "found out" not through some weird mystical encounter where Mary appeared to me and offered me a tuna sandwich, but when somebody pointed out to me the logical conclusion of the idea of the heavenly saints and what they get up to.

Secondly, in response to suggestions of necromancy or other weird stuff, I have stopped well short of suggesting that we ought to ask the saints for prayers. The only biblical record I have of that is Saul, and he's not a role model I want to emulate. I know Catholics do that, but I'm just assuming it's redundant and leaving it at that.

Thirdly, the claim that the saints are not in heaven right now, or are comatose, or are otherwise in some sort of limbo, I refute with Luke 23:43. I know that will not end the debate, and I know that not all Christian denominations believe that Luke implies what I think he implies, so I'll leave it with that.

Duane's point is the best (from 1 Timothy 2:5) where he reminds us that there is one mediator between God and man, that being Jesus Christ. But I respectfully ask him to place this in context:

"...God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time..."

This passage does not claim that Jesus is the only one who speaks to God. The Holy Spirit speaks to God. Satan speaks to God (Job 1:9). We speak to God (in most of the New Testament doxologies and throughout the Old Testament). Paul tells Timothy that we must be saved to commune with the Father, and that it is only through Jesus Christ that we who were far off can be brought close again, by the ransom that Jesus paid.

To prove this, Duane, have you ever asked a friend to "pray for you"? If the above passage means what you say it means, then you have acted against scripture, as the prayers of your friend have no avail. Count up the number of times Paul asks the churches to "pray for us" - admittedly the churches are living people - proving that 1 Timothy 2:5 is not saying that Jesus is the only one who can pray for us, but that it is saying Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6).

Finally, to Toymom and those others who have protested my use of scriptures from Revelation as symbolic (which I dispute hotly - and we can visit that in End Times Chat later!) I ask them what the symbols in the two scriptures that I quoted (Revelation 5:13 and 6:9-10) actually mean, if they do not mean that the saints are in intercession.

I also ask all concerned what the saints are doing right now, and for some biblical evidence. I also reassure everybody that I am not praying to Mary, or any other saint, or soliciting their prayers. I am, however, fairly confident that they are praying for me...as members of a heavenly prayer meeting led by Jesus (Hebrews 7:25).

karenoka27
Oct 2nd 2007, 10:51 PM
we are the saints: we pray while we are alive...

saint:"hagios" -most holy thing

Romans 12:1-"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

1 Corinthians 6:19-"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"

1 Peter1:16-"Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

1 Peter 2:9-"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;"

I do not believe that anyone but Jesus Christ is praying on our behalf right now...or ever will.

I believe that Revelation 6:9-10:

-9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"



is speaking of those who have been killed for their faith and are waiting for judgment on those who have killed them. I do not believe that this has even happened yet.



Paul speaks freely about being a saint and calling others saints..there is plenty of Scripture for that, which I will only share if asked. The way that Catholics believe in saints, they can't be one until after they have died.



I love Mary, and I look forward to meeting her one day. But she won't be busy praying..she is and will be in awe of being in the presence of her Savior Jesus Christ..just like me!

Duane Morse
Oct 3rd 2007, 12:39 AM
To prove this, Duane, have you ever asked a friend to "pray for you"? If the above passage means what you say it means, then you have acted against scripture, as the prayers of your friend have no avail. Count up the number of times Paul asks the churches to "pray for us" - admittedly the churches are living people - proving that 1 Timothy 2:5 is not saying that Jesus is the only one who can pray for us, but that it is saying Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6).

Actually, no, I have not.

I can pray on my own, and I do not need any go-betweens other than Jesus. To me, asking someone else to pray for me is simply passing the buck to someone else and cluttering up the 'prayer-waves' with useless repeats.

Many voices asking will not be heard by God any more clearly than a single voice. And getting someone else to ask for me will not get God to do anything any differently.

Scruffy Kid
Oct 3rd 2007, 01:14 AM
Thanks for your carefully considered input, Duane Morse! :)

I can pray on my own, and I do not need any go-betweens other than Jesus. To me, asking someone else to pray for me is simply passing the buck to someone else and cluttering up the 'prayer-waves' with useless repeats.

Many voices asking will not be heard by God any more clearly than a single voice. And getting someone else to ask for me will not get God to do anything any differently.But that doesn't seem to be what the Epistle of James (5:14-16) says. In fact James directly tells us to ask for others' prayers, as I read it.

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. As I read it, James says (i) "pray for one another that you may be healed" indicating the importance of mutual prayer; (ii) "the prayer of a righteous man avails much", indicating that it is important to ask specially just and holy people to pray for one; and (iii) that people have the church leaders, the presbyteroi [elders, leaders, priests?] pray, as this is a key to having the sick be healed, and sins forgiven.

I don't see how that is compatible with the view that it's "useless" or worse of me to ask other people -- especially, very righteous people, and leaders -- to pray for me. Scripture here seems to tell us to do just that!!

In friendship,
Scruff

Duane Morse
Oct 3rd 2007, 01:25 AM
On the other hand, Jesus said to pray for others in 2 (only 2, as far as I know) verses, neither of which was to pray for each other or indicating that we should ask others for prayer.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Lu 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

Teke
Oct 3rd 2007, 04:49 PM
This usually boils down to whether you believe the saints are alive or dead. Jesus says they are alive,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

In context,

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mat 22:33 And when the multitude heard [this], they were astonished at his doctrine.


So here Jesus has said the dead are like the angels, and they are not dead.

Then there is the parable where He speaks of one praying who is in hell, so to speak, to another living saint (or dead if you don't believe their alive) Abraham.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Sounds pretty lively to me and not dead. And all three (Abraham, the rich man, and Lazarus) are not in their earthly bodies (but are as Jesus said, as the angels).;)

Then there is the example of Jesus Himself, literally standing in front of the disciples who witnessed the Transfiguration, speaking to Moses and Elijah.

That is plenty evidence for me (including what Bing pointed out in the OP).

Duane Morse
Oct 3rd 2007, 04:54 PM
The dead have not been resurrected yet, so that argument is flawed.

Teke
Oct 3rd 2007, 05:19 PM
The dead have not been resurrected yet, so that argument is flawed.

Well Jesus asks you,

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So like I said, it depends on what you believe.;)

OneStep
Oct 3rd 2007, 05:40 PM
Shouldn't all prayers be simple and to the point of "God's Will Be Done"?

As for Mary or anyone else supposedly in heaven already (which I find evidence suggesting not) praying for any of us is not scriptural.

Until the return of our one Saviour and Intercessor, all sleep. Upon Jesus return those that sleep will be resurrected and those that are alive will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I would think it is an abomination to pray to a "saint" to pray for us.

God's Will Be Done.

kimilmela
Oct 3rd 2007, 07:40 PM
Matthew 6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:9: After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

That's how Jesus taught us to pray- to the Father alone- and that will always be good enough for me.....
I believe in praying for others, whether the unsaved, my enemies or my friends and brothers in Christ- but I will always follow the Lord's example and pray to the Father- the only One I am sure has the power and authroity to respond.

As to the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews.....I have always taken that to be the angels etc who are in heaven worshipping God and witnessing to His power and greatness, and rejoicing when another sinner comes to repentance and salvation: I nowhere find any evidence to suggest they are praying for us....

Bing
Oct 3rd 2007, 09:57 PM
Ladies and gents,

To those who argue that my original post cannot be, because the passed-on saints are in a comatose state, or are asleep, or are sitting around all ghostly-like playing poker or something, I can only repeat my evidence of Luke 23:43 in which Jesus tells the thief on the cross that it is on that day that he would be in paradise. I can add the scriptures thoughtfully suggested by others in this thread, including Luke 16, in which Lazarus and the Rich Man are both animated and capable of speech, even though dead. I understand that this is a parable, but it remains as powerful circumstantial evidence.

If you believe that the saints are being kept on ice until the end of the age when they are resurrected into their glorified bodies (as in 1 Corinthians 15) then the burden of proof is on you to deal with Luke 23, 16 and of course Matthew 22. We can have that discussion at another time, and elsewhere. Thanks for playing.

As for Duane Morse, you tell me that Jesus advises us to "pray for each other" "only" twice in the Bible. Is that not enough? How many times does Jesus have to command you to do something before you do it? I see you drawing a pedantic and unnecessary line semantically between praying for others and asking others for prayer - especially in light of Matthew 5:19, which says that "whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Here we see that Jesus places tremendous emphasis on telling others to do what He told them, and that such things have eternal ramifications. Thus, if Jesus tells me to pray for people, it is my duty as a Christian to ask other Christians to also pray.

We have discovered this, Duane, without venturing outside of Jesus' explicit words. Do you consider the rest of the New Testament to be canonical, and the inspired Word of God? Because I do. Therefore, when Paul and James say, as clear as day "pray for us" (1 Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1, Heb 13:18, Jas 5:14-16) and Paul prays for the churches many times (Eph 1:17-19; 3:16-19, Phil 1:9, Col 1:9-12, etc) and recommends prayer for others as a sterling example of a Christian walk (Col 4:12) then I am afraid your position sounds dogmatic and profoundly unbiblical.

Finally Duane, as to your derisive comments about "cluttering up the prayer-waves" and that God will not hear many voices more clear than a single voice, you have no biblical evidence for a statement that sounds more like Bruce Almighty feverishly checking his prayer emails that keep flooding his inbox than the omniscient and omnipotent God that I know. You have no scriptural support for this rampant speculation, which in fact contradicts flatly Jesus' parable in Luke 18:1-8, in which we will be granted justice from our righteous Judge, if we cry out to Him night and day, and are not deterred but continue in prayer.

If you have further comments you wish to make about whether it is biblical for believers to pray for one another Duane, I would appreciate if we could address them in Bible Chat. I consider that issue settled, and would not like to discuss it further here.

To those who have challenged my definition of "saint", I agree in the priesthood of all believers. I have said that I am not a Catholic. We are the saints, before our mortal bodies die and after. That said, I have been informed that the Eastern Orthodox Church actually believes this also, and that their iconisation of "saints" is simply a statement of "we're almost absolutely positive that this chap actually went to heaven."

But that's beside the point. I believe that Saint Mary and Saint Peter and Saint Andrew are all in heaven praying for me. I also believe that several million (billion?) other saints, with just as much "sainthood" as those three above, are also in heaven praying for me. So to clear up, this is not a thread to define what a saint is.

Onestep, I have not gone so far as to suggest that we should ask dead saints to pray for us. I am confident that we should ask living saints to pray for us, I am confident that dead saints do pray for us, but as to asking them ("praying to them") that seems poor judgement on two counts:

1. It's redundant. They're already praying full time
2. We have no evidence that they can hear us

Remember, I am not advocating praying to saints. I am not Catholic. I am simply reminding us that the Bible seems to suggest that the saints in heaven are praying just as hard as the Church on the earth is.

Let me throw in another piece of biblical evidence on my behalf. We all agree that the Church is the Bride. We do not all agree on who is being addressed in Revelation 22:17 when the Bride and the Spirit cry "Come." I hold that the Spirit and the Bride are interceding for Jesus' return (cf. v12) whereas others suggest they are exhorting unbelievers to repentance (v17 "Let the one who is thirsty come") but whichever it is, whether the Bride is exhorting the earth or calling for Jesus' return, we know that the Bride is doing it (with the Spirit). Is the whole Bride crying this sentiment, or just part of the Bride? For if only part of the Bride (the Church on earth) were crying out this sentiment, we create some awesome problems for ourselves. We imply that only "part" of the Spirit is crying out. We imply that the Holy Spirit can be divided. We imply that only part of Christendom is the Bride. We imply that the eternal promises described in the latter pages of Revelation apply only to part of the Bride.

Or, we prove conclusively that Revelation 22:17 depicts the entire and united Bride of Christ, whether living or dead, united in intercession. The Church in earth and heaven.

Over to you kids...

OneStep
Oct 3rd 2007, 10:59 PM
Bing...my intention was not to bring contention, I just voiced the way I see it as you have stted the way you see it. Love and Peace.
Now...I wanted to bring to attention your statement:


I can only repeat my evidence of Luke 23:43 in which Jesus tells the thief on the cross that it is on that day that he would be in paradise[QUOTE] Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I believe this is an error in punctutation. The comma should be after "today"....I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me.....

Now for another issue:
[QUOTE]Luke 16, in which Lazarus and the Rich Man are both animated and capable of speech, even though dead. I understand that this is a parable, but it remains as powerful circumstantial evidence.

You are right, it is a parable, but I do not see how it is called circumstantial evidence...I am not a scholar, just a seeker of truth....so if you can explain the circumstantial evidence it would be helpful. I believe this is a Spiritual parable and not physical parable. Jesus forever spoke in parables and spoke in words of Spiritual truths...

Teke
Oct 4th 2007, 02:57 PM
Onestep, I have not gone so far as to suggest that we should ask dead saints to pray for us. I am confident that we should ask living saints to pray for us, I am confident that dead saints do pray for us, but as to asking them ("praying to them") that seems poor judgement on two counts:

1. It's redundant. They're already praying full time
2. We have no evidence that they can hear us

Remember, I am not advocating praying to saints. I am not Catholic. I am simply reminding us that the Bible seems to suggest that the saints in heaven are praying just as hard as the Church on the earth is.

Using the Greek of scripture this can be clarified. As there is a difference in "intercession" and "mediation" made in the actual Greek. And how the church participates in the passions of Christ as His Body the Church.

One could say that prayer and intercession are two different things. Prayer can be done by all Christians and by people even before Christ, maybe even and without Christ. Whereas the intercession is done by some specific Christian saints, in the way the Orthodox view it anyway; it touches more upon the word "mediation" rather than "prayer". This is more or less the protestant view. We agree of course that the intercession differs from prayer, because it is directed to specific saints and not to all Christian people. The intercession "converges to", "tends to", mediation, but it does not have the same meaning as mediation (something lost many times in translations). The words we're interested in here are "πρεσβεία" (intercession) and "μεσιτεία" (mediation). People talk regarding the "unique mediation" of Christ, which is a different thing altogether and proves, as expected, that they do not know the distinction between the two words.

If the verb "πρεσβεύω" (I intercede) is identical with the verb "μεσιτεύω" (I mediate) in the Holy Bible, how come then Apostle Paul who calls Jesus Christ as the "one mediator between God and man" also say regarding himself "πρεσβεύω εν αλύσει" (Ephes. 6: 20) i.e. "I intercede in a chain"?

Of course, you could say that, here, Apostle Paul talks regarding the mission, which he received as a preacher of the Gospel from the Lord. The Lord said this explicitly regarding him in Acts 9:15-16.

"Πρεσβεύω" means that I am an intercessor, an ambassador if you like. The words "εν αλύσει", which essentially means "chained", express the passion of Apostle Paul through which passion he became like Christ (suffering in a similar manner). In other words "πρεσβεύω εν αλύσει", means that I am an intercessor, an ambassador of Christ, because I suffer too, like He suffered. Here therefore are the two 'worlds' of the "πρεσβεύω εν αλύσει"; the first world is the intercession, the representation of Christ by the Apostle. The second world is the chaining, the grief of Apostle Paul.

This is just one example using the Greek.:saint:

Teke
Oct 4th 2007, 03:01 PM
Jesus forever spoke in parables and spoke in words of Spiritual truths...

He also backed His words with actions. Do you believe the Transfiguration was literal?

OneStep
Oct 4th 2007, 03:55 PM
I like 1 Corinthians 4:6

cheech
Oct 4th 2007, 04:35 PM
Did Christ pray to anyone other than God asking for intercession (yes, I know he was God as well).

Did the Disciples in the New Testament pray for intercession to those who have gone before them? Even those in the OT such as Moses, Elijah, Abraham, etc?

Did anyone in the OT or NT pray to anyone other than God or Jesus (for those in the NT) outside of the pagans?

I'm not talking those who were alive and kicking and praying to God for each other...but asking intercession to those who had passed on.

Please add scripture if so (just in case there was something I may have missed ;)).

RSiscoe
Oct 5th 2007, 01:54 AM
I was stunned to find out the other day that Mary (the one from the Bible, Jesus' mother, the one Catholics are all into) prays for me.

No, bear me out. It surprised me as much as it surprises you. In fact, this isn't at all either a Controversial Issue or even a World Religions thing, but I put it here for safekeeping. It's actually in the Bible, as clear as day. Perhaps if a moderator or admin (for I am a minimod, though I don't feel like overstepping my bounds on this one) wants to, they can shift this to Bible Chat?

Anyhow. How did I come to such a conclusion as the shocking title suggests? Is it biblical?

Of course it is. Mary prays for me. So does Saint Peter. So does Saint John. So does Saint Andrew. So does every single saint that a Catholic has ever sought a prayer from. Now you see why I stuck this in World Religions, eh?

But actually, I don't think this is a Catholic doctrine or a heresy at all. What is a Catholic asking when he or she asks Mary to pray for him or her? Well, it seems to me that this Catholic is addressing one of the Hebrews 12:1 cloud of witnesses and asking for her intercession. Is this okay?

Hebrews 7:25 tells us what Jesus is up to right now: He is interceding for us. That's cool.

What are the saints (as in, the redeemed who have shuffled off the mortal coil and are in heaven) doing right now? Revelation 5:13 has every creature in heaven and on earth worshipping the Lord. Whether that's now or later depends on your eschatology. Even without this, I think it would be fair to assume that Mary (and everybody else in heaven) is occupied in communing with the Lord on a fairly regular basis.

Revelation 6:9-10 depicts the saints in heaven crying out to the Lord and interceding for His judgement to come upon the earth. That means that the martyred (and presumably just plain dead) saints from all of history are in heaven now interceding for us.

So basically, it comes down to that old Wesley number, O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing, noting that our God is praised by "the church in earth and heaven." It might be a little redundant, but are the Catholics really committing a cardinal vice by asking a dead saint to pray for them when she is (by all biblical evidence) already doing so?

And is Mary praying for us, along with the rest of that great cloud of witnesses?

I am not a Catholic, and I do not want this thread to devolve into a discussion of any other Catholic doctrines that may or may not be heretical. This idea gave me pause for thought, and I'm looking for feedback. Replies consisting of, "Yes...but the Catholics also do such-and-such" will not be tolerated. Let's take a good hard look at this one, people. Thanks for your input.

Bing,

I think you made some great points. For those who think that the dead (those whose souls have separate from the body) are in a state of "soul sleep" and unaware of what is taking place on earth, I would point to Luke 16, where the rich man and Lazarus are "awake" and fully aware of what is happening.

2.) The resurrection that the Bible speak of is the resurrection of the body, not the resurrection of the soul.

3.) Regarding whether we should ask for others to pray for us, clearly the answer is yes. It is not "going around Jesus" or "cluttering up the 'prayer-waves'" to ask others to pray for us. In 1 Thess 5:25, Paul himself says "Brethren, pray for us".

We all need prayers... and the more the better. The Bible says "the prayers of a righteous man prevaileth much", and who is more righteous than those in heaven who are completely purified from any tendency to sin, and who "see God face to face". Those who seek the intercession of the saints - and especially the saint of saints - Jesus' Mother (the "Ark of the New Covenant") - are indeed wise and will gain from such prayers.

I mentioned Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. That is a very important point and one that many are unaware of. If you study the Ark of the Old Covenant you will see that this was a very great help for Israel in overcoming their enemies. When the Israelites had the Ark with them, they had great victories. The battles in the Old Testament are often parallels to the spiritual battles that we have to endure. The "seven cananite nations" that Israel battled, for example, represent the seven capital sins that we must battle. When Israel had the Ark with them in their battles, they were successful. (See Josue, chapter six, for example.)

Well, the parallels between the Ark of the Old Covenant and the Ark of the New Covenant are striking. Contained in the Ark of the Old Covenant was the Word of God in the form of the 10 commandments; the manna from heaven; and Aarons staff, which represented the Old Testament Priesthood.

Contained within the Ark of the New Covenant for nine months was The True Word of God (Jesus); the True manna from heaven (Jn 6:31-32); and the High Priest of the New Covenant.

All those things contained in the Ark of the old covenant prefigured that which was contained in the Ark of the New covenant.

The Ark of the Old covenant is buried, probably directly below where Jesus was crucified, while the Ark of the New Covenant is in heaven..

Rev: 11-19-12:1):And the temple of God was open in heaven: and the Ark of His Testament was seen in the temple... And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a women clothed with the Sun, and the mood under here feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..."

The parallels between the Ark of the Old Covenant and the Ark of the New make for an interesting study; and just as the Ark of the Old Covenant was a great help for the Jew in overcoming their enemies, so too is the Ark of the New Covenant for us.

Joyfilled
Oct 8th 2007, 01:15 PM
I was stunned to find out the other day that Mary (the one from the Bible, Jesus' mother, the one Catholics are all into) prays for me.

No, bear me out. It surprised me as much as it surprises you. In fact, this isn't at all either a Controversial Issue or even a World Religions thing, but I put it here for safekeeping. It's actually in the Bible, as clear as day. Perhaps if a moderator or admin (for I am a minimod, though I don't feel like overstepping my bounds on this one) wants to, they can shift this to Bible Chat?

Anyhow. How did I come to such a conclusion as the shocking title suggests? Is it biblical?

Of course it is. Mary prays for me. So does Saint Peter. So does Saint John. So does Saint Andrew. So does every single saint that a Catholic has ever sought a prayer from. Now you see why I stuck this in World Religions, eh?

But actually, I don't think this is a Catholic doctrine or a heresy at all. What is a Catholic asking when he or she asks Mary to pray for him or her? Well, it seems to me that this Catholic is addressing one of the Hebrews 12:1 cloud of witnesses and asking for her intercession. Is this okay?

Hebrews 7:25 tells us what Jesus is up to right now: He is interceding for us. That's cool.

What are the saints (as in, the redeemed who have shuffled off the mortal coil and are in heaven) doing right now? Revelation 5:13 has every creature in heaven and on earth worshipping the Lord. Whether that's now or later depends on your eschatology. Even without this, I think it would be fair to assume that Mary (and everybody else in heaven) is occupied in communing with the Lord on a fairly regular basis.

Revelation 6:9-10 depicts the saints in heaven crying out to the Lord and interceding for His judgement to come upon the earth. That means that the martyred (and presumably just plain dead) saints from all of history are in heaven now interceding for us.

So basically, it comes down to that old Wesley number, O For a Thousand Tongues to Sing, noting that our God is praised by "the church in earth and heaven." It might be a little redundant, but are the Catholics really committing a cardinal vice by asking a dead saint to pray for them when she is (by all biblical evidence) already doing so?

And is Mary praying for us, along with the rest of that great cloud of witnesses?

I am not a Catholic, and I do not want this thread to devolve into a discussion of any other Catholic doctrines that may or may not be heretical. This idea gave me pause for thought, and I'm looking for feedback. Replies consisting of, "Yes...but the Catholics also do such-and-such" will not be tolerated. Let's take a good hard look at this one, people. Thanks for your input.

Actually, Paul never asks dead people to pray for anyone. He is talking to people who are alive and well. In fact, God makes a reference to the pagan pracitices of contacting the dead in Deuteronomy 18:10-11, "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft or who casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist who consults the dead."

Those are under the practices lsited in Deuternomomy that God finds detestable. :mad:

RSiscoe
Oct 9th 2007, 02:12 AM
Actually, Paul never asks dead people to pray for anyone. He is talking to people who are alive and well. In fact, God makes a reference to the pagan pracitices of contacting the dead in Deuteronomy 18:10-11, "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft or who casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist who consults the dead."

Those are under the practices lsited in Deuternomomy that God finds detestable. :mad:

But didn't Jesus say that those who believe in Him shall never die?

"Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: and everyone that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26).

Bing
Oct 9th 2007, 02:27 AM
Cheech, Joyfilled and the others,

I'm not saying we should ask dead guys to pray for us. I'm asking if you think that they do pray for us.

I am not Catholic, and I think Catholics have got it wrong, asking dead guys to pray for them. I'm just saying that they might have it right that the dead guys do actually pray for us, whether we ask or not.

disiple56
Oct 9th 2007, 10:12 AM
The bible does speak of consulting dead people on behalf of the living.


Isaiah 8:19b.
should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

GothicAngel
Oct 9th 2007, 12:44 PM
The bible does speak of consulting dead people on behalf of the living.


Isaiah 8:19b.
should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Thats necromancy. If you conjure up the dead and have conversatiohns with thme, its necromancy.

If you pray to the spirits in heaven, its not. They dont talk back

Teke
Oct 9th 2007, 01:43 PM
Actually, Paul never asks dead people to pray for anyone. He is talking to people who are alive and well. In fact, God makes a reference to the pagan pracitices of contacting the dead in Deuteronomy 18:10-11, "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft or who casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist who consults the dead."

Those are under the practices lsited in Deuternomomy that God finds detestable. :mad:

I've never seen any Christians consulting the dead. Christians are all of One Spirit in which they pray. And they are all alive in Christ.:)

Now I've seen plenty of false "prophets" as they call themselves, in my years as a Christian. Those who are like spiritist mediums acting as though they have some secret revelation for folks.

Some examples of people in scripture and prayer, are, Noah's father, who at the birth of Noah (because of the miraculous nature) went to the sea and called out to his father Enoch in prayer, as he was troubled by what he had seen at Noah's birth.

In the book of Maccabees they prayed for the departed. This has always been historically. As many of the first Christians prayed and met in cemeteries or catacombs to celebrate the Eucharist believing that those in heaven celebrated with them on earth.

And there is in Revelation the incense depicting the prayers of the saints being offered to God.

Rev 5:8 ∂ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.

Are those twenty four elders dead or alive?


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

cheech
Oct 9th 2007, 02:13 PM
Cheech, Joyfilled and the others,

I'm not saying we should ask dead guys to pray for us. I'm asking if you think that they do pray for us.

I am not Catholic, and I think Catholics have got it wrong, asking dead guys to pray for them. I'm just saying that they might have it right that the dead guys do actually pray for us, whether we ask or not.

If they do, then that is great for us because sometimes we need all the help we can get ;). Seriously, I understand what you are saying :D.

Honestly, I'm not sure if they spend their time praying for us and interceding or not. It's not something I think about often because I only go directly to God/Jesus when I pray. It doesn't mean I don't look at what the saints have done on earth and the example they have set. In the following verse you had given, that is what Paul is talking about...following the example of those who went before the disciples and their faith in God and perseverence. He is giving encouragement:

Hebrews 12:1
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

If you look at Hebrews 11:39-40 it talks about their faith and goes further to give all the names of those that were being used as examples:

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

You also mentioned something in your previous post (yeah I'm gong way out of order here...lol):

Rev 6:9-11
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

They are only speaking about about themselves...the souls who have already been slain for the word of God. It makes no mention whatsoever that I can see about interceding for the rest of us. They are speaking about themselves. They were then told to wait a while longer.

Yes, I do believe the saints are alive, but there is nothing in the Bible that indicates we are to go to them for intercession, only to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There is no where in the Bible where someone asked those who went before them (Moses, Elijah, Abraham, etc) to intercede on their behalf to God. If it were so, wouldn't it have been in there? The only place you see it spoken of is with the Pagans. Yes, I know because they held whomever they were praying to as gods and idols, and they were placed ahead of God. So what do you call it when we go to a saint who has died for intercession? Here is why I think this way. I have seen first hand what happens when people go to saints for intercession instead of going to God. They will dwell more on the saint than on God and soon this saint is idolized. Just do a search and see all the boards and websites devoted to the saints. They are thanking the saint for the intercession and leaving God out of the picture (not all but many). That's not to say they don't love God but he becomes more and more in the background because since this saint went to God for this person, this is the saint they will go to for intercession. They begin to hold this saint in high regard yet the bible states no one is above the other we are all on the same level (can't find the verse at the moment).

People will always disagree about this, but I see it as another distraction of the enemy away from God. A twisting of scripture. The Bible speaks consistantly how we are to honor God only and go to no one but him for everything but people seem to look right past that for some reason. I'm not talking about asking someone here on earth to pray for us as the Bible states we can do that, but I'm talking about asking someone who has died to go to God on our behalf which the bible states we are only to pray to God. If we could do this, wouldn't Christ have told us? We are not to assume anything when it comes to God. He has told us what we can and can't do. We can ask for those who are alive on earth to pray for us to God and with us. It doesn't say we can go to those who have died and ask them to intercede.

Yes, God is the God of the living and not the dead so I do believe our spirits are alive after death of course. Do the saints before us pray for us? I don't know. I do know that they are alive in spirit, worshipping God. But if the Bible, God's inspired word, does not say we can do this, then I am not going to assume I can do it.

I decided to look up "pray" in the dictionary just to get an idea of what wording is used:

Pray: to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship); To make a fervent request or entreaty; address a deity, a prophet, a saint or an object of worship; say a prayer; "pray to the Lord"

People can call it what they want...intercession or prayer...same thing. Novenas are prayers and there are many novenas out there to saints for intercession.

Teke
Oct 9th 2007, 03:22 PM
People will always disagree about this, but I see it as another distraction of the enemy away from God. A twisting of scripture. The Bible speaks consistantly how we are to honor God only and go to no one but him for everything but people seem to look right past that for some reason. I'm not talking about asking someone here on earth to pray for us as the Bible states we can do that, but I'm talking about asking someone who has died to go to God on our behalf which the bible states we are only to pray to God. If we could do this, wouldn't Christ have told us? We are not to assume anything when it comes to God. He has told us what we can and can't do. We can ask for those who are alive on earth to pray for us to God and with us. It doesn't say we can go to those who have died and ask them to intercede.

Yes, God is the God of the living and not the dead so I do believe our spirits are alive after death of course. Do the saints before us pray for us? I don't know. I do know that they are alive in spirit, worshipping God. But if the Bible, God's inspired word, does not say we can do this, then I am not going to assume I can do it.



Truly the point of the church is that we are not to challenge the dogma of Christ. By which is meant, there is no division in Christ. One Body, not two, such as one that is alive and one that isn't.

All will have to reconcile things with their own conscience on the matter. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me."

"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth."

Personally, I believe and have faith all is possible with God. But then, I am a fool for Christ. :P:D

cheech
Oct 9th 2007, 08:05 PM
Truly the point of the church is that we are not to challenge the dogma of Christ. By which is meant, there is no division in Christ. One Body, not two, such as one that is alive and one that isn't.

I agree...we are all one body in Christ, but we (in general) must be careful not to assume things (again speaking in general) that is not written. Here are some more verses I have found in John 16 that leads me to believe we are to go directly to the Father:

23-24
23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

26-27:
26 Then you will ask in my name. Iím not saying I will ask the Father on your behalf, 27 for the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016:26-27;&version=51;#fen-NLT-26718a)]


All will have to reconcile things with their own conscience on the matter.

Yup...tis true

But as always, we must not let anything like this divide us. We must always remain ever faithful to the mission of God...spreading his word and leading others to Salvation through Christ :hug:.

RSiscoe
Oct 9th 2007, 11:56 PM
The bible does speak of consulting dead people on behalf of the living.

Isaiah 8:19b.
should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

I'm curious, did Jesus violate the teaching of Deuteronomy 17 when he spoke with two dead people at the time of the transfiguration?

Matthew 17:1-3: "And after six days Jesus taken unti him Peter and James, and John his brother... and He was transfigured before them... and behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias, talking with Him."

Here we have an example of Jesus Himself talking to two "dead" people. I'm curious, how do you reconcile this with Deuteronomy chapter 17 which explicitly forbids communicating with the dead?

Joyfilled
Oct 10th 2007, 02:18 AM
I've never seen any Christians consulting the dead. Christians are all of One Spirit in which they pray. And they are all alive in Christ.:)

Now I've seen plenty of false "prophets" as they call themselves, in my years as a Christian. Those who are like spiritist mediums acting as though they have some secret revelation for folks.

Some examples of people in scripture and prayer, are, Noah's father, who at the birth of Noah (because of the miraculous nature) went to the sea and called out to his father Enoch in prayer, as he was troubled by what he had seen at Noah's birth.

In the book of Maccabees they prayed for the departed. This has always been historically. As many of the first Christians prayed and met in cemeteries or catacombs to celebrate the Eucharist believing that those in heaven celebrated with them on earth.

And there is in Revelation the incense depicting the prayers of the saints being offered to God.

Rev 5:8 ∂ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.

Are those twenty four elders dead or alive?


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

As you'll notice, Enoch, never died. He was taken by God. So that example is inaccurate.

Secondly, saints are all born again Christians, not those the catholics declare saints after they died. So the example in Revelation doesn't apply to dead people.

Absolutely God's ears are open to people praying to him, not to dead people. :rolleyes:

And the Macabbes were never canonized becuas the book wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit. So none of your examples are valid and more importantly, they aren't valid because they contradict Deuteronomy 18:11. So since God never contradicts himself, then you are in error claiming that He tells us to pray to dead people.

Duane Morse
Oct 10th 2007, 06:29 AM
Some examples of people in scripture and prayer, are, Noah's father, who at the birth of Noah (because of the miraculous nature) went to the sea and called out to his father Enoch in prayer, as he was troubled by what he had seen at Noah's birth.


If that is scriptural, would you mind pointing out where in scripture it is to be found?

Or are you including the Book of Enoch when you say 'scripture'?

Teke
Oct 10th 2007, 02:07 PM
Besides the scriptures that some don't have in their bibles:rolleyes:, the one of Revelation hasn't been answered to yet. Are the twenty four elders with the prayers of the saints dead or alive?


As you'll notice, Enoch, never died. He was taken by God. So that example is inaccurate.

Conjecture.


Secondly, saints are all born again Christians, not those the catholics declare saints after they died. So the example in Revelation doesn't apply to dead people.

Saints are the faithful of God.


Absolutely God's ears are open to people praying to him, not to dead people. :rolleyes:

I haven't said to pray with dead people.


And the Macabbes were never canonized becuas the book wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit. So none of your examples are valid and more importantly, they aren't valid because they contradict Deuteronomy 18:11. So since God never contradicts himself, then you are in error claiming that He tells us to pray to dead people.

Conjecture, again, on your part.

Teke
Oct 10th 2007, 02:19 PM
If that is scriptural, would you mind pointing out where in scripture it is to be found?

Or are you including the Book of Enoch when you say 'scripture'?

The book of Enoch is scripture. It may not be in everyones "canon" of scripture.
What I consider scripture is what was spoken and/or written by Jesus and the Apostles.

Joyfilled
Oct 10th 2007, 02:27 PM
Besides the scriptures that some don't have in their bibles:rolleyes:, the one of Revelation hasn't been answered to yet. Are the twenty four elders with the prayers of the saints dead or alive?



Conjecture.


Saints are the faithful of God.


I haven't said to pray with dead people.


Conjecture, again, on your part.

It's not conjecture that Enoch didn't die. :o God's word says that God took him.

And neither did I say you said to pray with dead people. You are trying to justify praying to dead people which is trying to consult the dead.

Here's what Rev. 5:8 says and read it carefully; "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and tey were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. '

So the elders themselves were not praying. They were holding golden bolws full of inscense which represented the prayers of the saints. So before you try to justify why we shouldn't believe Deuteronomy 18:11, I suggest you make sure that you read the bible carefully because God's word doesn't contradict itself. ;)

Teke
Oct 10th 2007, 03:08 PM
It's not conjecture that Enoch didn't die. :o God's word says that God took him.

What you mean, is that is what you understand from what you've read.


And neither did I say you said to pray with dead people. You are trying to justify praying to dead people which is trying to consult the dead.

What would one need to "consult" them on? I'm not trying to show a consultation with the dead.


Here's what Rev. 5:8 says and read it carefully; "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and tey were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. '

So the elders themselves were not praying. They were holding golden bolws full of inscense which represented the prayers of the saints. So before you try to justify why we shouldn't believe Deuteronomy 18:11, I suggest you make sure that you read the bible carefully because God's word doesn't contradict itself. ;)

What do you think the elders are doing, holding onto
prayers of saints :confused

Or are they offering them to God (I feel certain the elders are also praying and worshiping God also as the text depicts). Your type is in the OT where God tells Israel to always present incense before His altar, meaning the prayers of the saints are always before Him.
Much of Revelation depicts a divine liturgy in heaven ( like the worship service of Israel).

Steven3
Oct 11th 2007, 08:03 AM
Hi Bing
That was a legitimate question in the OP. If Protestants take Hebrews 12:1 as proof of living witnesses, not just witnessing as Abel's blood witnessed, and take Revelation 6:9-10 not as a symbol but proving there are literal dead saints conscious in heaven and making literal witness and literal appeals in heaven then why not Mary too? Why criticise Catholics for something that is near enough majority Protestant belief?

Protestants don't believe in the assumption of Mary (physically) but do generally share Catholic belief that Mary ascended (albeit without her body) when she died. If Mary is alive in heaven why shouldn't she hear prayers and relay these to her son?

Luther objected to prayer to Mary and the Saints because he, initially, taught that the dead sleep until the return of Christ and that the dead know nothing, so his objection against prayer to Mary and the saints was in part a consequence of this. But since modern Protestants don't share Luther's objection to the immortality of the soul a major objection against prayer to Mary and the Saints is removed.

God bless
Steven

Duane Morse
Oct 11th 2007, 08:16 AM
The book of Enoch is scripture. It may not be in everyones "canon" of scripture.
What I consider scripture is what was spoken and/or written by Jesus and the Apostles.
I think 'Enoch' is a cool read and very interesting, and it may very well be 'the real thing'. But there is too much that is not known about it - such as where it actually came from or who actually wrote it.

But, I would never use it to prove a point, nor would I refer to it as 'scripture'. The only 'scripture' I recognize as authoritative is the Bible.

Your view of 'including as scripture anything that I personally find interesting enough' is not acceptable to me. So unless you can also find Biblical support for your arguement, I'll just take it with a grain of salt and move on.

And by your own definition ("What I consider scripture is what was spoken and/or written by Jesus and the Apostles.") the book of Enoch, the book of Maccabees, and indeed the entire OT would not be accepted by you as scripture - since none of them were spoken and/or written by either Jesus nor the Apostles. Only the NT conforms to your stated personal definition of 'scripture'.

Teke
Oct 11th 2007, 02:14 PM
I think 'Enoch' is a cool read and very interesting, and it may very well be 'the real thing'. But there is too much that is not known about it - such as where it actually came from or who actually wrote it.

But, I would never use it to prove a point, nor would I refer to it as 'scripture'. The only 'scripture' I recognize as authoritative is the Bible.

Your view of 'including as scripture anything that I personally find interesting enough' is not acceptable to me. So unless you can also find Biblical support for your arguement, I'll just take it with a grain of salt and move on.

And by your own definition ("What I consider scripture is what was spoken and/or written by Jesus and the Apostles.") the book of Enoch, the book of Maccabees, and indeed the entire OT would not be accepted by you as scripture - since none of them were spoken and/or written by either Jesus nor the Apostles. Only the NT conforms to your stated personal definition of 'scripture'.

It really doesn't matter what you or I think, it is a canon of scripture in the church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church to be specific. And they understand it well (it is written in their language).:)

Nihil Obstat
Nov 1st 2007, 05:14 AM
Bing (if you're still checking up on this),

I know that it's been awhile since someone posted in this thread, but I just stumbled across this, and was praising God for the way that He leads His people because He has been speaking to me of this, too (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=104429)!

Let me know what you think... - Lk.11