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Otter77
Oct 4th 2007, 04:25 PM
Does your church accept credit cards?

As a new Christian I find this somehow disturbing although I can't put my finger on exactly why...

One article of many on the topic: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1648022,00.html

Incurring consumer debt *IS* ultimately a bad practice -- to do this for the purpose of giving to your church seems like a bad example.

teddyv
Oct 4th 2007, 06:33 PM
Our's doesn't. Don't think I would support any move to do that in our church. Also, those private ATM's cost a lot in service fees (something like 2-3 dollars/transaction.

Otter77
Oct 4th 2007, 06:38 PM
Indeed... my church doesn't either... it just doesn't feel like the right thing to do, does it?

I've heard-tell that there are even large churches with card swiper-things on the backs of the seats or pews!

rchivers
Oct 4th 2007, 07:23 PM
Does your church accept credit cards?

As a new Christian I find this somehow disturbing although I can't put my finger on exactly why...

One article of many on the topic: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1648022,00.html

Incurring consumer debt *IS* ultimately a bad practice -- to do this for the purpose of giving to your church seems like a bad example.


I dont know.... Just taking debit cards actually makes it not seem so bad... but still something just seems wrong about it.... and honestly when you think about it, it really is just keeping up with the times but still... if we all feel something is just not right about it, there must be a reason why we feel that way.

teddyv
Oct 4th 2007, 07:45 PM
I dont know.... Just taking debit cards actually makes it not seem so bad... but still something just seems wrong about it.... and honestly when you think about it, it really is just keeping up with the times but still... if we all feel something is just not right about it, there must be a reason why we feel that way.

I think it might be that it makes the church seem like your local convenience store.

Brother Mark
Oct 4th 2007, 07:53 PM
I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into debt. But I certainly have no issues with using a credit card or an ATM machine to make donations. I often wish my church had an ATM machine close by.

rchivers
Oct 4th 2007, 08:01 PM
It is almost like strong-arming you into giving though... for those of us that are not so assertive we may feel that there is no excuse not to give that particular week... Don't have cash or check? We take plastic... and your first born... and IOUs... (I have been to churches that ask their members to pledge a certain amount per year so they can "budget" properly... )

Maybe I am just cheap.

Otter77
Oct 5th 2007, 01:37 AM
It is almost like strong-arming you into giving though... for those of us that are not so assertive we may feel that there is no excuse not to give that particular week... Don't have cash or check? We take plastic... and your first born... and IOUs... (I have been to churches that ask their members to pledge a certain amount per year so they can "budget" properly... )

Maybe I am just cheap.

I heard of a church once where the treasurer would actually call you if you were behind on your tithes and request that you pay up!!

amazzin
Oct 5th 2007, 01:52 AM
Does your church accept credit cards?

As a new Christian I find this somehow disturbing although I can't put my finger on exactly why...

One article of many on the topic: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1648022,00.html

Incurring consumer debt *IS* ultimately a bad practice -- to do this for the purpose of giving to your church seems like a bad example.

Many churches have ATM and I have no problem with such. Those churches I have seen have a disclaimer that people are not to go into debt to give to the church and that the ATM is for convenience only. If churches do not care about people going into debt to satisfy their greed for money then I agree, they should be removed.

amazzin
Oct 5th 2007, 01:54 AM
I heard of a church once where the treasurer would actually call you if you were behind on your tithes and request that you pay up!!

I would leave the church in a big hurry. That is a very low blow. There is a component of faith even in the churches finances,....shake the dust off your feet and get the heck out of there

Otter77
Oct 5th 2007, 02:31 AM
I would leave the church in a big hurry. That is a very low blow. There is a component of faith even in the churches finances,....shake the dust off your feet and get the heck out of there

no joke brother! Fortunately this was not MY experience.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 5th 2007, 04:31 AM
Does your church accept credit cards?

As a new Christian I find this somehow disturbing although I can't put my finger on exactly why...

One article of many on the topic: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1648022,00.html

Incurring consumer debt *IS* ultimately a bad practice -- to do this for the purpose of giving to your church seems like a bad example.

Hey why not? After all its not cheap to convince somebody that they can be assured they are saved.

Otter77
Oct 5th 2007, 01:26 PM
Hey why not? After all its not cheap to convince somebody that they can be assured they are saved.

It's too bad that so few seem to truly understand that "by works you cannot be saved but by grace alone" concept....

Sold Out
Oct 5th 2007, 01:52 PM
Indeed... my church doesn't either... it just doesn't feel like the right thing to do, does it?

I've heard-tell that there are even large churches with card swiper-things on the backs of the seats or pews!


I think it's wrong. We are supposed to give based on what we make, not how much we have in available credit.

Otter77
Oct 5th 2007, 01:55 PM
I think it's wrong. We are supposed to give based on what we make, not how much we have in available credit.

I agree with this...

I also think that the "debit cards only" concept would be one that I could handle if it showed up in my Church because it really is the same as writing a check.

So shall we say "No Credit? No problem!"

;)

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 5th 2007, 01:56 PM
Things like that happen when you have organizations who's main goal is to get people through their week.

God on the other hand, just wants to be in our day.

Arielluria
Oct 6th 2007, 01:49 AM
Hi, I just found this forum and this post while doing some Bible research. I think it's deplorable. Never mind that tithing is old covenant!

Otter77
Oct 6th 2007, 01:56 AM
Hi, I just found this forum and this post while doing some Bible research. I think it's deplorable. Never mind that tithing is old covenant!

Arielluria - I want to make sure you understand that I am not opposed to Tithing in the least. If you would like to open a debate about that I would encourage you to start a new thread on the topic. Money and the use thereof is covered *so* heavily in the Bible that topics concerning Tithing and/or any giving to a Church definitely deserve their own thread. :)

On the subject of accepting credit cards in Church though - particularly through ATMs... I completely agree with you.

Brother Mark
Oct 6th 2007, 02:00 AM
Why are you guys so against the convenience? I would be thankful that my church had it. But then again, my church doesn't push anyone to give or tithe. We just do what's in our heart.

Otter77
Oct 6th 2007, 02:09 AM
Why are you guys so against the convenience? I would be thankful that my church had it. But then again, my church doesn't push anyone to give or tithe. We just do what's in our heart.

So do we Mark... Tithing is barely mentioned if ever at all and our Pastor intentionally excludes himself from the entire finance process as much as he possibly can. I think the crossing of the line is between debit cards and credit cards... Incurring debt for offering doesn't seem right.

Brother Mark
Oct 6th 2007, 02:20 AM
So do we Mark... Tithing is barely mentioned if ever at all and our Pastor intentionally excludes himself from the entire finance process as much as he possibly can. I think the crossing of the line is between debit cards and credit cards... Incurring debt for offering doesn't seem right.

But you are assuming that those who use credit cards are incurring debt. I use them, but I pay them off every month. No debt is incurred. But in the mean time, I rack up points for using the cards. Very convenient and beneficial.

Otter77
Oct 6th 2007, 02:21 AM
But you are assuming that those who use credit cards are incurring debt. I use them, but I pay them off every month. No debt is incurred. But in the mean time, I rack up points for using the cards. Very convenient and beneficial.

That's exactly how I used to use them too... which is a great process if you can master it!

Surely though you recognize that you are about 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 who manage that.

Pslm37
Oct 6th 2007, 02:50 AM
I attend a large church. I haven't seen an ATM machine, but that doesn't mean it's not there. The church where I grew up practiced annual stewardship pledging. They didn't expect ten percent from the get go, though. You could tithe one, two, or three percent or whatever you could reasonably afford to sacrifice. At the end of the year, they sent out letters to everyone telling them how much they had given in offerings. The main reason was to provide those who had fulfilled their pledge with a statement for tax purposes if they wanted to deduct the amount. The secondary reason was so those who had not yet paid their pledge would have the opportunity to do so.

I'm not sure I see it as being wrong. If the church accepts the pledges, then the person making the pledge is obligated to fulfill it because it's essentially an agreement before God. The church, in that instance, is right to bring it to the person to keep them from sinning in not fulfilling their obligation or to give them the opportunity to repent for promising something they weren't able or willing to deliver.

The real error is in making the pledge without the complete intention of fulfilling it come whatever may.

As for tithing being "old covenant" it technically predates the law given to Moses and goes back to Abraham and Melchizedek. As such it's outside of the "law" of the old covenant. Not that it matters because as Christians, we're commanded to give offerings above tithes. Also, a true old testament tithe was 23.3 percent of one's increase annually. Today's ten percent off the top tithing model works, but isn't biblical. Giving should require sacrifice and for some ten percent is no sacrifice at all and for others only one percent constitutes a significant sacrifice. . . like the widow and her two coins vs. the wealthy man and his sack of money.

Pax,

Psalm 37

always
Oct 6th 2007, 02:59 AM
I don't see anything wrong with having the ATMs for convenience.

It is the responsibility of the saint to be a good steward of his money.

The bible tells us in

Luke 16:8 that the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

to me this is an admonishment to the church not to be backwards about business.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 6th 2007, 05:15 AM
:rofl:

I feel a storm a brewin'

I'm gonna take cover. Hope to see you all inside.

:saint:

amazzin
Oct 6th 2007, 02:18 PM
:rofl:

I feel a storm a brewin'

I'm gonna take cover. Hope to see you all inside.

:saint:

Chicken!
:rofl:

Saved7
Oct 7th 2007, 12:56 AM
Does your church accept credit cards?

As a new Christian I find this somehow disturbing although I can't put my finger on exactly why...

One article of many on the topic: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1648022,00.html

Incurring consumer debt *IS* ultimately a bad practice -- to do this for the purpose of giving to your church seems like a bad example.

The only ones I know of that have these are ...can anybody guess??? That's right Bob...it's the WoF churches, Bob tell them what they've won.:lol:
Naturally the WoF are the ones that are doing it around here, and it is because that is what their teachings are based in, 'prosperity' and the only way for that preacher to prosper is to make sure his members have access to their money.:rolleyes:

Otter77
Oct 7th 2007, 02:25 AM
The only ones I know of that have these are ...can anybody guess??? That's right Bob...it's the WoF churches, Bob tell them what they've won.:lol:
Naturally the WoF are the ones that are doing it around here, and it is because that is what their teachings are based in, 'prosperity' and the only way for that preacher to prosper is to make sure his members have access to their money.:rolleyes:

Sorry for the n00blety question Saved... but what does WoF stand for?

Saved7
Oct 8th 2007, 01:30 AM
Sorry for the n00blety question Saved... but what does WoF stand for?


that's ok, that stands for Word of Faith....a doctrine that teaches pretty much that we are all supposed to be "prosperous"

amazzin
Oct 8th 2007, 01:46 AM
The only ones I know of that have these are ...can anybody guess??? That's right Bob...it's the WoF churches, Bob tell them what they've won.:lol:
Naturally the WoF are the ones that are doing it around here, and it is because that is what their teachings are based in, 'prosperity' and the only way for that preacher to prosper is to make sure his members have access to their money.:rolleyes:

WoF churches are not the only churches who have ATM's. There is a fairly large SB church here that has two. One in the CM building and the other in the main lobby.

amazzin
Oct 8th 2007, 01:47 AM
that's ok, that stands for Word of Faith....a doctrine that teaches pretty much that we are all supposed to be "prosperous"

Partially true, ...amoung other teachings

RedBird777
Oct 11th 2007, 03:27 AM
This IS the 21st century...so I don't really oppose it, but I don't agree with it either.

I like the card-swipe on the back of pews, though. I'm a college student, and I don't always have green slips of paper in my wallet - it's only me and my debit card. On the other hand, it seems more traditional and I get more of a feeling that I did something good when I put money in the plate/basket/whatever it is.
But also keep this in mind - a lot of people talk about changing different currencies, or getting rid of the penny, or something currency-related. The thing is, currency will eventually fade because more and more and more people are using plastic instead of paper and metal. Eventually (just a guess form a crazy man) all we will have is plastic. Imagine the change from all-metal currency to paper money and metal coins. That was a huge step. Now we have technology to use plastic as a "currency".

RedBird777
Oct 11th 2007, 03:51 AM
...to add to the last post, the article finally loaded, and I am APPALLED. The IRS wants the church to document any "gift" under $250? Not only that, but ALL gifts ANYBODY makes? Ok, now that is just a bit ridiculous. I hope it becomes unconstitutional and whoever came up with this idea sees the freedom he (or she - who knows?) is taking away from us Americans.

Sorry - I need to rant. But it seems like churches are gonna be forced into this by the government. I do believe this is unconstitutional and I actually wouldn't be surprised if the article has actually been blown WAY out of proportion.

I<3Jesus
Oct 11th 2007, 04:35 PM
There is a church in our area that makes you give them a copy of your tax return, so they can decide how much you give to the church. I think that is incredibly presumptuous. What a person makes on paper tells you nothing unless you look at their expenses. I realize you are suppose to tithe a certain amount, but I think that is crossing a line. Someone once told me that the push to make plastic acceptable every where is one of the ways in which the world will be unified under one currency. My pastor said that churches today are not preparing Christians for Christ, but for the world's church that will exist during tribulation. I prefer to put cash in the collection, whatever I can afford for the week. I do not think that makes me a bad Christian. Jesus held the poor woman who could only put a small amount in the collection in higher regard than he did the rich man.

pnewton
Oct 11th 2007, 04:52 PM
I give mostly through a computer bill payer direct from my checking account. I was thinking the other day how great it would be to have wireless internet during the offetory. We could all just flip out our laptops and PDA's and type away as we sing.:P

boltnut55
Dec 11th 2007, 12:26 AM
Someone suggested that our church opens a Paypal account - it's really for the convenience. We are a small church and do have people who "disappear" for many months at a time and then return, such as college students or people who leave for a job and then return a year later type of thing. For those against the ATM/credit card idea, would Paypal turn you off as well? Just wondering.

Otter77
Dec 11th 2007, 04:02 PM
Actually I think PayPal would be a great idea.... totally different connotation to me personally than an ATM

militarywife
Jan 25th 2008, 01:58 AM
Why are you guys so against the convenience? I would be thankful that my church had it. But then again, my church doesn't push anyone to give or tithe. We just do what's in our heart.
First and foremost I don't feel that any church should accept credit cards for tithe or any other love offering. The bible clearly states in Proverbs 22:7 " The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"
Why would ANY church encourage the use of credit cards when the use of them may cause one to serve someone OTHER than our Lord?
I would NOT be a member of a church that encouraged this kind of habit.

menJesus
Jan 25th 2008, 09:18 AM
There is a church in our area that makes you give them a copy of your tax return, so they can decide how much you give to the church. I think that is incredibly presumptuous. What a person makes on paper tells you nothing unless you look at their expenses. I realize you are suppose to tithe a certain amount, but I think that is crossing a line. Someone once told me that the push to make plastic acceptable every where is one of the ways in which the world will be unified under one currency. My pastor said that churches today are not preparing Christians for Christ, but for the world's church that will exist during tribulation. I prefer to put cash in the collection, whatever I can afford for the week. I do not think that makes me a bad Christian. Jesus held the poor woman who could only put a small amount in the collection in higher regard than he did the rich man.


There are a few churches in my area who do the same. And even if you happen to "miss" a service or two ( or ten or twenty) the church will set up an account for you, and deduct your tithes from your checking account, or credit card, in order for you to "remain faithful to the Lord".

I believe the ATM/etc. is not good at all. I believe that the idea of tithes and offerings is that we give out of our hands of what we have, not what we will have later.

Duane Morse
Jan 25th 2008, 09:34 AM
There is a church in our area that makes you give them a copy of your tax return, so they can decide how much you give to the church. I think that is incredibly presumptuous. What a person makes on paper tells you nothing unless you look at their expenses. I realize you are suppose to tithe a certain amount, but I think that is crossing a line. Someone once told me that the push to make plastic acceptable every where is one of the ways in which the world will be unified under one currency. My pastor said that churches today are not preparing Christians for Christ, but for the world's church that will exist during tribulation. I prefer to put cash in the collection, whatever I can afford for the week. I do not think that makes me a bad Christian. Jesus held the poor woman who could only put a small amount in the collection in higher regard than he did the rich man.
My dad ended up rejecting his church because they made a graph of who was giving 'enough' based on their income. Make the congregation feel guilty, so that they will 'give' more.

And, they rejected him, for other reasons as well.

He was the one that freely donated the organ to this church, by the way.

In the end, it all came down to $$$$$$$$$$$$.

Not Biblical and Christ centered ideals.
Just, how much can you bring in from the flock.

Michigan Mike
Jan 25th 2008, 12:59 PM
I don't have a real problem with PayPal, ATM's or debit cards. It's just a reflection of how our society handles money these days.

Credit cards invite abuse. True, many people use them responsibly. But we know other people will use them to 'keep up' on their pledges and incur debt in the process. Basically, credit cards allow you to spend more than you make. Because of the potential for abuse and to remove temptation for those who might struggle with this kind of thing, I'd prefer churches not accept them.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 01:24 PM
First and foremost I don't feel that any church should accept credit cards for tithe or any other love offering. The bible clearly states in Proverbs 22:7 " The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"
Why would ANY church encourage the use of credit cards when the use of them may cause one to serve someone OTHER than our Lord?
I would NOT be a member of a church that encouraged this kind of habit.

But you assume a credit card is not paid off every month. It's not about borrowing money. It's about convenience. Having a high credit card balance is either poor money management or someone is in dire straights financially. Those interest rates are way too high to pay every month.

But with frequent flier miles, etc. tied to use on the credit card, it would be nice for those of us that pay off the cards every month. Then again, the church would have to pay the 2% fee or whatever it is these days for the right to use it. Now, an ATM card would have the convenience without the price. That would be alright too.

Michigan Mike
Jan 25th 2008, 02:07 PM
But you assume a credit card is not paid off every month. It's not about borrowing money. It's about convenience. Having a high credit card balance is either poor money management or someone is in dire straights financially. Those interest rates are way too high to pay every month.

But with frequent flier miles, etc. tied to use on the credit card, it would be nice for those of us that pay off the cards every month. Then again, the church would have to pay the 2% fee or whatever it is these days for the right to use it. Now, an ATM card would have the convenience without the price. That would be alright too.

I hear what you're saying, but I would sacrfice convenience if it removed temptation for someone that struggles with overspending and debt.

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 02:15 PM
I hear what you're saying, but I would sacrfice convenience if it removed temptation for someone that struggles with overspending and debt.

True enough. All it would take is for one person to say "it would be a temptation for me" and it should be removed. Great point.

militarywife
Jan 25th 2008, 02:46 PM
I hear what you're saying, but I would sacrfice convenience if it removed temptation for someone that struggles with overspending and debt.


True enough. All it would take is for one person to say "it would be a temptation for me" and it should be removed. Great point.
This is a great thread.
I agree.
Believe me, I know there are many people out there who can and do manage their money properly. I mean no disrespect to them at all. I just think the temptation is too great for some.
I personally have my own financial/stewardship beliefs that work for me. I like to encourage people to not have debt.

CoffeeBeaned
Jan 25th 2008, 04:59 PM
We don't have an ATM but our church did give us the information so we could have our giving direct deposited from our paychecks. We had to ask them for this but this makes it so much easier for us and I know I am giving every two weeks.

I also don't have to remember to go to the bank and get cash or try to write out a check during service because I forgot to do it at home before I came. It's all taken care of.

Also, the money is gone before I can spend it which is always good. :D

Brother Mark
Jan 25th 2008, 08:17 PM
This is a great thread.
I agree.
Believe me, I know there are many people out there who can and do manage their money properly. I mean no disrespect to them at all. I just think the temptation is too great for some.
I personally have my own financial/stewardship beliefs that work for me. I like to encourage people to not have debt.

Credit cards do not necessarily equal debt. ;)

Otter77
Jan 26th 2008, 05:58 PM
this continues to be a great thread... just to follow-up on some of the things I read below... thoughts that came to my mind while reading:

* It would be a temptation for me... someone who has already amassed an unruly amount of consumer debt and loves his church so much that he wishes he could give everything to it.

* I would love the paycheck idea though... it would force me to give regularly *and* manage the money I had left-over more properly.

* Talking about churches that keep a public ledger of giving balances... have none of these people read the parable of the widow's mite? Holy cow. I heard someone once say that they actually once belonged to a church that would CALL and HARASS you like a debt collector to CATCH UP on your giving!! What kind of place of our lord could that ever be?! Very sad.

Love you guys... thanks for continuing to contribute to a subject I feel is very important!

Realist1981
Jan 28th 2008, 09:12 AM
how big of an inconvience is writing a check?
You can even have it prepared and filled out before you even get to church

:o:o really you can, don't be too shocked

Otter77
Jan 28th 2008, 02:17 PM
how big of an inconvience is writing a check?
You can even have it prepared and filled out before you even get to church

:o:o really you can, don't be too shocked

I don't even know where my checkbook is!

menJesus
Jan 28th 2008, 02:34 PM
I know many who write out checks for their tithes and stick the check in their Bibles, so it will be there when they get to church.

Some put the check in the Bible and pray over it.

I set aside my tithe first thing, when I cash my check. God comes first. I believe it does matter to God whether His due is first or last, in our order of things.

Darren
Jan 28th 2008, 04:42 PM
my overtly pious & preachy side abhors the thought of atm's or debit card swipers, but as a staffed member of a large church who uses the technology to utilize debit cards, i understand it's purpose.

though, as i read through this thread, i was taken back to jesus' unceremoniously dumping of the money changers out of the temple grounds.

why? and what was the purpose of the money changers?

i believe the issue was not money or making money; it was sacrifice.

the money changers provided, for a fee, the necessary sacrifice required for that family's sin offering. a poor family could only afford a turtledove, and a more established family, a lamb.

before the money changers, the family that brought the lamb, would have picked the finest of it's flocks. kept it, loved it, nurtured it, to ensure it's passing the inspection of the priest. they would then travel great distances across harrowing territory and all the while this lamb nestled in their arms until they reached the city of jerusalem and the temple of god.

most assuredly, there would now be some caring attachment toward this innocent sacrifice. this sacrifice that was charged to their care was now going to die for their sins.

but when the money changers came along, the convenience was more prominent than the lesson god was trying to teach his followers.

and today, with the ease of swiping a card, we appease "our" need to give to god.

but in this more convenient manner are we missing the whole point of sacrifice?

militarywife
Jan 28th 2008, 05:36 PM
Darren,
That brings a whole new thought to this discussion. Thank you for the insight.

Brother Mark
Jan 28th 2008, 06:44 PM
my overtly pious & preachy side abhors the thought of atm's or debit card swipers, but as a staffed member of a large church who uses the technology to utilize debit cards, i understand it's purpose.

though, as i read through this thread, i was taken back to jesus' unceremoniously dumping of the money changers out of the temple grounds.

why? and what was the purpose of the money changers?

i believe the issue was not money or making money; it was sacrifice.

the money changers provided, for a fee, the necessary sacrifice required for that family's sin offering. a poor family could only afford a turtledove, and a more established family, a lamb.

before the money changers, the family that brought the lamb, would have picked the finest of it's flocks. kept it, loved it, nurtured it, to ensure it's passing the inspection of the priest. they would then travel great distances across harrowing territory and all the while this lamb nestled in their arms until they reached the city of jerusalem and the temple of god.

most assuredly, there would now be some caring attachment toward this innocent sacrifice. this sacrifice that was charged to their care was now going to die for their sins.

but when the money changers came along, the convenience was more prominent than the lesson god was trying to teach his followers.

and today, with the ease of swiping a card, we appease "our" need to give to god.

but in this more convenient manner are we missing the whole point of sacrifice?

But we are talking about tithes not sacrificial lambs or Romans 12. The sacrifice is in the giving not in the way it is given. Romans 12 is all about offering ourselves as a living sacrifice and indeed, it is important. But the way one gives money is, well there seems to me to be a lot of freedom.

Let's all be a living sacrifice unto the Lord. But at the same time, we don't need to let go of things that are not forbidden. We don't mind driving to church in cars, or using air conditioning, or heat in the building, or having indoor plumbing... The list of modern conveniences could go on and on. Why are some but not all acceptable when scripture is basically silent on those freedoms?

Darren
Jan 28th 2008, 07:32 PM
But we are talking about tithes not sacrificial lambs or Romans 12. The sacrifice is in the giving not in the way it is given. Romans 12 is all about offering ourselves as a living sacrifice and indeed, it is important. But the way one gives money is, well there seems to me to be a lot of freedom.

Let's all be a living sacrifice unto the Lord. But at the same time, we don't need to let go of things that are not forbidden. We don't mind driving to church in cars, or using air conditioning, or heat in the building, or having indoor plumbing... The list of modern conveniences could go on and on. Why are some but not all acceptable when scripture is basically silent on those freedoms?


yes, yes.

i am in no way trying to advocate the amish idea of purity. i am all for modern technology and all that it brings. as i stated, this thought kept creeping up in my mind as i read the above posts.

i am not opposed to atm's or the debit card machines in church.

cautious, but not opposed.

IPet2_9
Jan 29th 2008, 01:54 AM
I think I'm against ATM's in church. Even if the intent is okay, it looks bad. Churches have visitors.

If you think that's bad, though, I visited a church once where they had advertising for local businesses in the church bulletin.

Brother Mark
Jan 29th 2008, 01:56 AM
If you think that's bad, though, I visited a church once where they had advertising for local businesses in the church bulletin.

Most likely, that was a large church and they were advertising member's businesses in the bulletin. In a large congregation, it is nice to know someone in your church does the business you need. ;)

IPet2_9
Jan 29th 2008, 02:02 AM
It is, just not in the bulletin.

That church has since stopped doing that, by the way.

Padawan_Sage
Mar 1st 2008, 07:47 PM
:ppI like the idea! How nifty! :spin:

amazzin
Mar 1st 2008, 08:18 PM
ATM's in the church are the cool-est thing when used responsibly which most people do.

Athanasius
Mar 1st 2008, 10:50 PM
Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't understand the purpose of ATM's in church?

Revinius
Mar 2nd 2008, 05:59 AM
i dont see atm's being a sign of a focus on a relationship with Christ. What can be beneficial is a committed Christian deciding to give to their church via direct debit. Its a humble way to give and avoids appearing showy when the plate gets passed around.

menJesus
Mar 7th 2008, 09:34 AM
I am vaguely remembering a story in the Bible of a man refusing to use something borrowed, to give to the Lord. I have no idea of where it is, though.

I always took this to mean that God wants what is in our hand. Paying tithes and offerings with cash is sometimes a sacrifice to us. But isn`t that what God wants?

TSP
Mar 7th 2008, 12:31 PM
Does it have to be money we sacrifice? Personally I am going through an Anti-church phase right now; to me it is starting to seem more of a business than a place of worship. Every service the announcements before and after are all entirely about money. Honestly if they put ATMís in my church when I go back, they will conclude my theory and I probably will never go to church again.

Revinius
Mar 7th 2008, 04:15 PM
Does it have to be money we sacrifice? Personally I am going through an Anti-church phase right now; to me it is starting to seem more of a business than a place of worship. Every service the announcements before and after are all entirely about money. Honestly if they put ATMís in my church when I go back, they will conclude my theory and I probably will never go to church again.

Find a Godly church. God instructs us to be with our brothers for his purposes. From personal experience absence from a Godly church environment inevitably leads to a absence in the pursuit of personal Godliness.

Befaithful
Mar 12th 2008, 07:19 AM
Amazing...Next thing we will hear is that it has a drive thru service available.:confusedWith a device where you just swipe your card as you leave... for the do it your selfers...at your convenience

all about convenience:cool:

amazzin
Mar 12th 2008, 06:37 PM
Amazing...Next thing we will hear is that it has a drive thru service available.:confusedWith a device where you just swipe your card as you leave... for the do it your selfers...at your convenience

all about convenience:cool:

That already exists in many places like Florida and California

ilovemetal
Mar 14th 2008, 07:36 AM
haha i just found this thread. i have NEVER heard of this. it's amazing to me. (i live in canada)

for real then? atm's, in church? how much does is cost to take out money? what's this world coming to....

ever heard of planning ahead....

Semachiah
Mar 14th 2008, 03:28 PM
Shalom,

Why not just make the pulpit the ATM and when they take up an offering everyone can come and wait in line while the "Preacher" (not Pastor) monitors it all! Why don't we just set up direct deposit to the Preachers pocket!

Ashley274
Mar 16th 2008, 07:13 AM
God gives us ALL we have and to me giving the first fruit and best is only right. I also agree with 10% off the top due to scripture. But I do think ATMs could cause one to go into debt and there are a lot of sciptures against that...I am in debt and it is not right. I am against ATMs in church and credit cards..I find that rather odd :rolleyes: