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VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 12:36 PM
Could someone please point out to me where the Scriptures speak of such a thing. I've heard this countless times and I have yet to see anything of the sort in the Word of God. I realize someone can have a spirit of divination and be able to see things given to them from a demonic spirit, but where does the Word say that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discernment, tongues, interpretation of tongues, faith, miracles and healings?

I can't understand how in the world some people come up with this stuff.

I know the Word says that there will be lying wonders, so I guess that could qualify for counterfeit miracles, but what about the others?

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 12:51 PM
I would also like to add that I'm not really looking for any sources or opinions outside the Word of God. Therefore, responses resembling . . .


Well, this one time at such and such church . . .

is really not what I'm looking for.

Sold Out
Oct 5th 2007, 01:05 PM
FANTASTIC THREAD!! I can't wait for responses.

godsgirl
Oct 5th 2007, 01:07 PM
I believe satan can counterfit certain gifts-- but not in those who have given their lives totally to Jesus Christ.

GothicAngel
Oct 5th 2007, 01:08 PM
Why are you discounting anything outside of Scripture?

Exorcists (in my denomination anyways) have had about 2000 years of expeiernce in dealing with demons, and spiritual signs like languages, leviation, knowledge of hidden things, and etc are signs of true demonic possession. Not sure how that is to be discounted just because its not in the bible.

Phil Fourie
Oct 5th 2007, 01:10 PM
Maybe these verses will help you, I'm not sure

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:1-15

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Cor 4:14-15

God bless
Phil

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 01:16 PM
Why are you discounting anything outside of Scripture?

Because Jesus Christ and His Word is the foundation.

third hero
Oct 5th 2007, 01:20 PM
Why are you discounting anything outside of Scripture?

Exorcists (in my denomination anyways) have had about 2000 years of expeiernce in dealing with demons, and spiritual signs like languages, leviation, knowledge of hidden things, and etc are signs of true demonic possession. Not sure how that is to be discounted just because its not in the bible.

Actually, these "exorcists" were casting out demons in the name of Lord Jesus. They could not do so under any other authority. As we have seen in the book of Acts, when these fakes encounter a more powerful demon, they are beaten, or otherwise posessed themselves.

I believe that Satan is very limited in his abilites, especially concerning the gifts. The one gift that he could have people imitate, in my opinion, is the speaking in different languages. If anyone seen the movie "300", they showed one example of an "oracle" who spoke in unintelligible language only to have someone else "interpret" that language. The only way thyis is possible is because if we understand that Satan has the kingdoms of men under his control, the idea of having someone speak in a different language would not seem so far fetched. Although God created all of those languages, Satan still had experience dealing with people in their languages. So, that one can be faked.

We have seen many people who claim to be "Christ Himself", which is them trying to fake the gift of prophecy. We all know that although Satan keeps on trying this tactic, it always fail. So, no, he can not re[plicate that gift. As far as the other gifts are concerned, opnly those with Love in their souls can do them, and that takes coming to the Lord Himself and accepting Him as Lord ands Savior. Satan can not imitate those gifts, I am certain of that.

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 01:27 PM
Maybe these verses will help you, I'm not sure

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:1-15

The passages in Revelation could speak to the lying wonders I was talking about in my first post . . . that is of course if you take everything in the passage of Scripture you presented literally.



14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Cor 4:14-15


I believe 2 Corinthians 11 is simply talking about those who try and appear to be ministers of the Lord but in fact are just wolves in sheeps clothing. I don't believe this passage is talking about any counterfeit gifts from Satan.

Phil Fourie
Oct 5th 2007, 01:39 PM
[/i]

The passages in Revelation could speak to the lying wonders I was talking about in my first post . . . that is of course if you take everything in the passage of Scripture you presented literally.

Ok, I should maybe add, I take everyting in die Bible literally;). But still that is what I can give you from Scripture, not giving you my opinion as you asked:saint:

But If I may add my opinion, Satan gan only do things God allows him to do.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:12

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:9

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:14

God bless
Phil

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 01:48 PM
Ok, I should maybe add, I take everyting in die Bible literally;). But still that is what I can give you from Scripture, not giving you my opinion as you asked:saint:

So, you think it's a literal dragon in that passage? You believe Satan will be bound by a literal chain in chapter 20? I, personally, take Scripture literally where it is clear to me that it is literal and symbolic where it's clear to me that it is symbolic. I appreciate your opinion, however, and your willingness to try and comply with the request to keep things about Scripture.


But If I may add my opinion, Satan gan only do things God allows him to do.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:12

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:24

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:9

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:14

God bless
Phil

I agree with all this, and I agree that many will do lying wonders. What I'm mainly asking is where do people get the idea that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.

Phil Fourie
Oct 5th 2007, 02:06 PM
So, you think it's a literal dragon in that passage? You believe Satan will be bound by a literal chain in chapter 20? I, personally, take Scripture literally where it is clear to me that it is literal and symbolic where it's clear to me that it is symbolic. I appreciate your opinion, however, and your willingness to try and comply with the request to keep things about Scripture.

I do believe that they refer to an actual thing that is going to happen, but I do not want to hi-jack this nice thread you started here with a debate regardig the literal reading of the Word.




I agree with all this, and I agree that many will do lying wonders. What I'm mainly asking is where do people get the idea that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.

That is what I have now for you from the Bible, I will check if there is something else, but I am actually also asking the question, same as you. What I do wonder about is these signs the beasts will do????

Again, nice thread, hope we can find an answer.

God bless
Phil

AlainaJ
Oct 5th 2007, 02:51 PM
Could someone please point out to me where the Scriptures speak of such a thing. I've heard this countless times and I have yet to see anything of the sort in the Word of God. I realize someone can have a spirit of divination and be able to see things given to them from a demonic spirit, but where does the Word say that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discernment, tongues, interpretation of tongues, faith, miracles and healings?

I can't understand how in the world some people come up with this stuff.

I know the Word says that there will be lying wonders, so I guess that could qualify for counterfeit miracles, but what about the others?
2Cor.11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5154028)


[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.So - if her can pretend to be an angel of light, a good angel from God- could this not be a preacher, minister or any false prophet. Could he not perform false miracles, such as healing ect.....and decieve the beleivers?

1Kgs.22 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=1522784)


[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lyingspirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning the....

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 03:03 PM
2Cor.11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5154028)

[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.So - if her can pretend to be an angel of light, a good angel from God- could this not be a preacher, minister or any false prophet. Could he not perform false miracles, such as healing ect.....and decieve the beleivers?

1Kgs.22 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=1522784)

[22] And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lyingspirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
[23] Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning the....

I don't believe Satan will perform any sort of healing. As the Scriptures say, the enemy comes not but to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus is the only one who brings life and life more abundantly. I don't believe Satan has any interest whatsoever in healing others. In fact, I believe he's strictly in the business of bringing sickness, disease and famine on anyone he possibly can. I know of no Scriptural evidence that suggests Satan wants to heal anyone for any purpose. In fact, we have evidence that suggests the exact opposite.

The Lord Jesus Christ stated that a house divided against itself will not stand. So if sickness and disease is coming from Satan just as demons come from Satan as well, Jesus Christ makes it clear that Satan is not going to try and deliver someone of his own work.

AlainaJ
Oct 5th 2007, 03:17 PM
I don't believe Satan will perform any sort of healing. As the Scriptures say, the enemy comes not but to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus is the only one who brings life and life more abundantly. I don't believe Satan has any interest whatsoever in healing others. In fact, I believe he's strictly in the business of bringing sickness, disease and famine on anyone he possibly can. I know of no Scriptural evidence that suggests Satan wants to heal anyone for any purpose. In fact, we have evidence that suggests the exact opposite.

The Lord Jesus Christ stated that a house divided against itself will not stand. So if sickness and disease is coming from Satan just as demons come from Satan as well, Jesus Christ makes it clear that Satan is not going to try and deliver someone of his own work.


Here is a thought to ponder:):)

What about witch doctors and all the false healings around the world. Perhaps Satan performs these "miracles" so people won't seek and beleive in the true God.

Just think,,,,,,if the medicine man and the voodoo priest can perform all sorts of healings and miracles- why seek Jesus? Satan wants people to worship him and not God.

Why wouldn't Satan heal? He has the person's soul...so why would he care if he healed them temporaily of some disease?

Luke.11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4678801)


[18] If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.Had people seen demonic spirits cast out before? Maybe some "priest" Remember the magicians in Exodus....they could perform so called miracles - like Moses...but thier snames didn't originate with God.:hmm:

How did the magicians do this? Why do you think GHod warns us against divination and sorcery...becuase the power comes from the devil.

Acts.8 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4906438)


[9] But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:2Chr.33 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=1918247)


[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.Where did these spirits come from....not from God...how about the devil:hmm: it would make sense...he is a lyer and deciever. God warns us ove and over again about this.

In Christ- good discussion:)

Alaina

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 03:40 PM
Here is a thought to ponder:):)

What about witch doctors and all the false healings around the world. Perhaps Satan performs these "miracles" so people won't seek and beleive in the true God.

Just think,,,,,,if the medicine man and the voodoo priest can perform all sorts of healings and miracles- why seek Jesus? Satan wants people to worship him and not God.

Why wouldn't Satan heal? He has the person's soul...so why would he care if he healed them temporaily of some disease?

Luke.11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4678801)

[18] If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.Had people seen demonic spirits cast out before? Maybe some "priest" Remember the magicians in Exodus....they could perform so called miracles - like Moses...but thier snames didn't originate with God.:hmm:

How did the magicians do this? Why do you think GHod warns us against divination and sorcery...becuase the power comes from the devil.

Acts.8 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4906438)

[9] But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:2Chr.33 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=1918247)

[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.Where did these spirits come from....not from God...how about the devil:hmm: it would make sense...he is a lyer and deciever. God warns us ove and over again about this.

In Christ- good discussion:)

Alaina

I don't see how you can have a counterfeit for something if it doesn't work, so I don't think you can make a solid argument that witch doctors and the like are Satan's version of the gifts of the Spirit.

Also, keep in mind here that I'm not denying that Satan has power. I'm asking specifically about where people find that he can counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit.

For example, I know that through the power of demonic spirits people can levitate. I know people can actually suspend themselves in air through the power of the devil. However, this is still not a counterfeit of a gift of the Spirit. It's just power that Satan uses to deceive people. Just because Satan demonstrates power doesn't mean it's a counterfeit of a gift of the Spirit. This would just qualify as a lying sign and wonder.

What I'm talking about here is that you constantly hear people saying that they know that Satan can give people a false gift of tongues and so on. I see no example of this at all in the Scriptures.

AlainaJ
Oct 5th 2007, 03:56 PM
What I'm talking about here is that you constantly here people saying that they know that Satan can give people a false gift of tongues and so on. I see no example of this at all in the Scriptures.[/quote]

Ok- no where can I find scripture that directly says, Satan can give people the gift of tongues.......

What other gifts of the are you referring to?

Cause we know there are false peachers and prohets.......can you think of other specific examples?

Alaina:)

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 04:03 PM
What other gifts of the are you referring to?

I'm just talking about the ones listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

AlainaJ
Oct 5th 2007, 04:16 PM
I just talking about the ones listed in 1 Corinthians 12.
1Cor.12

[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[2] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
[6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


From looking at this verse alone...he is telling the Corinthians that the Holy Spirit can give beleivers many kinds of gifts. Paul is saying that each gift is important.....and we may all have different gift.

I can't say from this verse only- I can't see Paul refering to any true gifts coming from the devil.........that school of thought has to be inferred by other scripture:hmm:

God Bless

9Marksfan
Oct 5th 2007, 04:17 PM
I just talking about the ones listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

The gifts you refer to are miraculous "signs and wonders" gifts - supernatural revelatory gifts. The passages already referred to in Matthew, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation refer to counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders - there is no need to spell each one out. Satan can and does use all of them - there are countless churches these days where the lack of truth in them and proliferation of every conceivable heresy alongside these so called displays of "the power of the Spirit" is evidence enough that these gifts can all be counterfeited. I cannot believe some people have no discernment.

Occult healing is real enough - but it is satanic, not divine.

Satan can counterfeit all the gifts of the Spirit - but not the fruit of the Spirit - and Jesus said it is by their fruits that you will know them......

VerticalReality
Oct 5th 2007, 04:55 PM
The gifts you refer to are miraculous "signs and wonders" gifts - supernatural revelatory gifts. The passages already referred to in Matthew, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation refer to counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders - there is no need to spell each one out. Satan can and does use all of them - there are countless churches these days where the lack of truth in them and proliferation of every conceivable heresy alongside these so called displays of "the power of the Spirit" is evidence enough that these gifts can all be counterfeited. I cannot believe some people have no discernment.

Occult healing is real enough - but it is satanic, not divine.

Satan can counterfeit all the gifts of the Spirit - but not the fruit of the Spirit - and Jesus said it is by their fruits that you will know them......

It has already been said that Satan will give lying signs and wonders, and you could argue I guess that this is a counterfeit miracle. However, there are a lot more gifts than just a miracle. What example can you give me scripturally where Satan gave someone a counterfeit tongue or a counterfeit healing?

And actually, when Jesus said you will know them by their fruit, He wasn't talking about their workings of miracles. In that passage Jesus Christ doesn't deny that the things they are doing are by the power of the Lord. He's just saying He never had a relationship with them.

Amazedgrace21
Oct 5th 2007, 04:56 PM
Could someone please point out to me where the Scriptures speak of such a thing. I've heard this countless times and I have yet to see anything of the sort in the Word of God. I realize someone can have a spirit of divination and be able to see things given to them from a demonic spirit, but where does the Word say that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discernment, tongues, interpretation of tongues, faith, miracles and healings?

I can't understand how in the world some people come up with this stuff.

I know the Word says that there will be lying wonders, so I guess that could qualify for counterfeit miracles, but what about the others?

Perhaps we need to examine this teaching first to recognize where the problem progresses from there?


For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Romans 8:15-18


Salvation is more than a decision made at a point in time. It is a new life in which one learns to walk after the Spirit of God. This is eternal life, and this life is in Jesus Christ. Salvation is a relationship with God, and as such, we can know by his Spirit that we are the children of God.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. We are aware of His witness as we walk in the light, just as Jesus is in the light. We are also aware of his witness when we sin and come under his holy conviction.

If we have not "tested the Spirit" so to speak,nor walking with the Holy Spirit when we are in sin, we will be led by a counterfeit spirit who can deceive us with counterfeit miracles, etc..

So perhaps the issues is not "if" Satan can deceive, obviously he can,

or with what, because he has abiities to produce counterfeit's of many things ..he's the ultimate Pro at this....

but WHY can he , WHEN and HOW he does. when he does

Just a thought?

BCF
Oct 5th 2007, 07:02 PM
Could someone please point out to me where the Scriptures speak of such a thing. I've heard this countless times and I have yet to see anything of the sort in the Word of God. I realize someone can have a spirit of divination and be able to see things given to them from a demonic spirit, but where does the Word say that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, discernment, tongues, interpretation of tongues, faith, miracles and healings?

I can't understand how in the world some people come up with this stuff.

I know the Word says that there will be lying wonders, so I guess that could qualify for counterfeit miracles, but what about the others?

Hi Again VR,

Believe it or not I love speaking to you over topics. Between you and PP, I don't know which one challenges me the most in scripture, and I Love a challenge. It keeps me on my toes and I need that all the time. I Praise God for you two and many other who I did not mention.;)

Anyway, It is not the gifts of the Spirit that Satan counterfeits, it's our Love walk that he counterfeits, and he does this through our mind. It is for this reason that Paul wrote in Romans 12: 1-2 "I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, Holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". What Paul is talking about here is being Born Again. Being changed from the inside out. In Proverbs 4:23 the writer tells us "Keep thy heart with all dilligence: for out of it are the issues of life". When we have this change of life (Born Again) we have God living inside of our heart, which is where our Love walk is, because God is nothing but Love. Now we know that God is nothing but Love because Paul tells us that in 1st John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is Love". We also know if we are changed from the inside out (Born Again) like Paul explained, that Love of God lives in our Heart because Paul says that also in 1st John 4:12 "No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us".

Now we can (or at least I can) believe all of this to be true because of what Paul writes to us in 1st John 2:7-9, "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith that he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now". Now we all know that we are all Spiritually dead until we become Spiritually alive through acceptance of Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus tells us in John 3:3 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be Born Again he cannot see the kingdom of God". I don't think that we have a problem agreeing on the fact that we all need to become Spiritually alive because we are all born Spiritually dead to the word of God and his ways of life. Now if I am wrong here well then I guess I am, and I will have questions for God to answer then from his own word someday because of what Paul writes in 1st John 13-15,
"Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Now when exercising the gifts of the Spirit that God has provided for us we need to be doing them with Love. We cannot be doing them with a false Love. This is where Satan is during his counterfeiting. With the Love walk. When we look at how Paul lays these gifts out the first thing that he tells us in 12:1 is not to be ignorant. Why? Well because like he says in 12:3, "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." The very first thing Paul explains is the Spiritual side of the Gifts. Then as you know through the rest of Chapter 12 Paul goes on explaining what all the gifts are and so forth, which I will not bother to get into. But in Chapter 13 Paul starts by telling us what all these gift mean without Love. Paul says in 13:1-3, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not Love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not Love, it profiteth me nothing". This what Paul writes tells me crystal clear that if my Love walk is not right according to the way that God wants it to be as outlined in 1st John, any gift that I may use, I would be using it in vain. It is not the gift of God which is being counterfeited by Satan. It is Our Love walk through Our very own minds. Because of the scripture that I have stated in the beginning. How did Satan get Eve to do what she did? He played with her mind. He was doing it then, and he is still doing it today.

God Bless

Dave

Saved7
Oct 5th 2007, 08:02 PM
Well given the fact that satan and the demons that possess people have been around far longer than human life, I would think that they know every language man has ever spoken. And if they know every language and a person is possessed, wouldn't they be able to speak through that person in a different language? Demons spoke directly to our Lord through the people they possessed. So what makes you think that they wouldn't pretend to be the person speaking in tongues when in actuality, it is the demon speaking in an ancient language or even a current language? Wouldn't that be considered a false gift of "tongues"?
And the girl with a "spirit of divination" isn't that a false gift of "knowledge"? And what of "fortune tellers" who happen to get it right? Isn't that a false gift of "prophecy?"
And as for healings? What about these people who go to those "energy healers"? Some people actually get healed. And then they run around boasting how it's a mind over matter and there is no need for God.
Oops, wait a minute. Why would satan do such things against his own kingdom? Because he is doing to lead people astray, away from God's Kingdom. So in essence, he isn't divided against himself, he is deceiving people into believing a lie about Jesus. Many people have become convinced that it doesn't matter what you believe, because you can be healed through other means, and they have seen fortune tellers tell the "truth" about the future (however in an obscure way). But these things have people convinced that they don't have to trust in Jesus. Therefore, those same people go to hell...exactly what the devil is after.
Yes there are plenty of false gifts, but it's all in a matter of how you define it. I would think that these sort of biblical and nonbiblical examples are proof to you. But I guess you want to see an outright scritpure that proves it. EVen though you have been given scriptures, like the girl with a spirit of divination.;) Ya know, the bible doesn't have to always "spell" things out for us. Just because the bible doesn't declare these things as "false gifts from satan" doesn't mean that they aren't. That is our own label for these things that we know are not from God.

godsgirl
Oct 5th 2007, 08:19 PM
The bottom line is Jesus Christ-if the Lord is in your life you need not worry about satanic manifestations of Spiritual Gifts-"no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed"-so you do not need to worry about such things as speaking in tongues being demonic because your Father would not give you a stone when you asked for bread.

BCF
Oct 5th 2007, 11:25 PM
The bottom line is Jesus Christ-if the Lord is in your life you need not worry about satanic manifestations of Spiritual Gifts-"no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed"-so you do not need to worry about such things as speaking in tongues being demonic because your Father would not give you a stone when you asked for bread.

This can not be my friend because Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

Jesus is pretty cut and dry here with what he is saying. Especially when you lineup scripture with scripture. When we read what Paul writes in 1st John on what God requires of us, and then what Jesus says here to those who misuse the gift that they were given, by using it in vain. Jesus pretty much tells them that he has no part of them at all and never did.

God Bless

Dave

godsgirl
Oct 5th 2007, 11:30 PM
Right-and if he has no part in them at all and never did then Jesus Christ isnt' the Lord of their lives. I wasn't talking about the unsaved here.

BCF
Oct 5th 2007, 11:59 PM
Right-and if he has no part in them at all and never did then Jesus Christ isnt' the Lord of their lives. I wasn't talking about the unsaved here.

I don't believe that Jesus was talking about those who are among the unsaved either.

BCF
Oct 6th 2007, 12:07 AM
I don't believe that Jesus was talking about those who are among the unsaved either.

You know what, that makes no sense. Who else would Jesus be talking about thou.:hmm:

Who else could cast out devils in Jesus name and they come out other then those who are saved? If we say the unsaved, we are going against the scripture are we not?

So Jesus had to be talking to those who either thought they were saved because of the way they were taught and got deceived, or Jesus was talking to the unsaved.

Maybe I am not reading things right here. Maybe everything does not hang off of our Love walk with Our Lord.:hmm:

godsgirl
Oct 6th 2007, 12:30 AM
Some Jews used to travel from place to place and force evil spirits out of people. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus to force evil spirits out of those who were possessed. These Jews would say, "I order you to come out in the name of Jesus, whom Paul talks about."

There you have it-they did not know Him-they just knew His Name and trusted in Pauls relationship with Him-not there own.

BCF
Oct 6th 2007, 01:31 AM
Some Jews used to travel from place to place and force evil spirits out of people. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus to force evil spirits out of those who were possessed. These Jews would say, "I order you to come out in the name of Jesus, whom Paul talks about."

There you have it-they did not know Him-they just knew His Name and trusted in Paul's relationship with Him-not there own.

If you are referring to Acts 19:15 those Spirits never did come out. Well they did, but they went on them instead. Here in Acts 19 13-16 Luke writes, "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of the Sce-va, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirits answered and said, Jesus we know, and Paul I know: but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and over came them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded".

I don't think that is who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 7:21-23. Besides in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that there will be many who will say that they did cast out devils in His name. These people who you referred to did not cast them out. Well like I said they did, but then they cast them on themselves I guess you could say.

So what's up with that.

godsgirl
Oct 6th 2007, 11:31 AM
If you are referring to Acts 19:15 those Spirits never did come out. Well they did, but they went on them instead. Here in Acts 19 13-16 Luke writes, "Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of the Sce-va, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirits answered and said, Jesus we know, and Paul I know: but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and over came them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded".

I don't think that is who Jesus was talking to in Matthew 7:21-23. Besides in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that there will be many who will say that they did cast out devils in His name. These people who you referred to did not cast them out. Well like I said they did, but then they cast them on themselves I guess you could say.

So what's up with that.

Exactly, they went about trying to do things in "His" Name, but they did not have a relationship with Him.-same is true for many who call themselves "christian" today-they really do not know him-they are just religious.

BCF
Oct 6th 2007, 01:19 PM
Exactly, they went about trying to do things in "His" Name, but they did not have a relationship with Him.-same is true for many who call themselves "christian" today-they really do not know him-they are just religious.

Well, don't religious people have Jesus with them or in there heart. I mean they all pray to God. They all read there Bible at some point and time during the week I'm sure. They all do a good thing for someone at some time during the week also I'm sure. I'm sure that they would all say that they go to Church Sometime during the week. I'm also sure that they would all tell you that they believed in Jesus and were Baptised and saved by the shed Blood of Jesus also. So why would you say that religious people don't know him?

They say the same thing that we do, and claim the same thing that we do. But yet we say that we are saved, and they are not?:hmm:

godsgirl
Oct 6th 2007, 02:12 PM
Well, don't religious people have Jesus with them or in there heart. I mean they all pray to God. They all read there Bible at some point and time during the week I'm sure. They all do a good thing for someone at some time during the week also I'm sure. I'm sure that they would all say that they go to Church Sometime during the week. I'm also sure that they would all tell you that they believed in Jesus and were Baptised and saved by the shed Blood of Jesus also. So why would you say that religious people don't know him?

They say the same thing that we do, and claim the same thing that we do. But yet we say that we are saved, and they are not?:hmm:

Being religous doesn't have anything to do with Knowing Him that's why. We can be religious and depend upon or religion rather than Him and His Blood-do you not know anyone who goes to church and does other religous things but do not have a living vital relationship with the King of Kings?

BCF
Oct 6th 2007, 02:24 PM
Being religous doesn't have anything to do with Knowing Him that's why. We can be religious and depend upon or religion rather than Him and His Blood-do you not know anyone who goes to church and does other religous things but do not have a living vital relationship with the King of Kings?

:) I know lots of people like that, but no one can tell them any different. Most of my family is like that as a matter of fact. My point is what don't they understand?

The thing they don't understand is what the enemy is corrupting and has been for thousands of years and will continue to till Our Lord makes His return.

9Marksfan
Oct 6th 2007, 04:48 PM
It has already been said that Satan will give lying signs and wonders, and you could argue I guess that this is a counterfeit miracle. However, there are a lot more gifts than just a miracle.

Yes - counterfeit signs and wonders! There is nothing "natural" or "ordinary" about speaking an unlearned language - unless one is very clever, it has to be supernatural - but why does it have to be a gift of God? It's clear from other posts that Satan CAN counterfeit other gifts, so why not tongues? Is the real issue here not that many try to see the gift of tongues as so-called "proof" of the "baptism in the Holy Spirit"? That is a hugely erroneous assumption to make, standing Matthew 7, 2 Thess 2, Matthew 24 etc.


What example can you give me scripturally where Satan gave someone a counterfeit tongue or a counterfeit healing?

As I and others have said before, there does not need to be specific examples in Scripture - for example, what example do we have of Jesus aver baptising anyone? yet so many make it almost non-negotiable for someone to be saved! And if someone comes up with the dispensationalist "baptism is for after the cross and the resurrection" teaching, then why did Jesus not baptise anyone prior to His ascension? But this is way off topic so :OFFT:

I did hear a chilling story once of a couple of missionaries who were on furlough and visiting a Pentecostal church. Someone was speaking in tongues and after the service they said to them "You know, you were speaking precisely in the dialect of the language of the peoples that we minister among". The individual concerned beamed with pride. But his face changed when the missionaries solemnly told him......








































"But you were cursing Jesus".

Is this perhaps an example of "No one can say by the Spirit 'Jesus be cursed'"?

I also know someone locally here who claims to speak in tongues who had been a Buddhist before she professed faith in Christ (because of what comes next, I really don't know if she is a Christian or not), so I believe she will have been open to the influence of evil spirits from her previous beliefs - but when she "prays in tongues", one of the words that comes out most is "Sceva" - a false deity. A gift of God? I think not.


And actually, when Jesus said you will know them by their fruit, He wasn't talking about their workings of miracles.

Agreed. I believe He was talking principally about their life and doctrine.


In that passage Jesus Christ doesn't deny that the things they are doing are by the power of the Lord.

That isn't His point - His point is that people who do these things are not necessarily saved in the first place - in other words, these are NOT indisputable evidences of salvation! Btw, what makes you think that these things they did had to be by the power of God or were in fact real at all? Jesus frequently did not answer people's questions directly, as they asked the wrong question - but He always gives the right answer to the question that SHOULD have been asked!


He's just saying He never had a relationship with them.

So isn't that prima facie evidence that they were separate from the life of the Spirit and that whatever "gifts" they had must have been counterfeit, as they themselves were counterfeit? "A bad tree does not bear good fruit".

OK - maybe contradicting myself a bit there - I think that the works of the Spirit could be the "fruit" that is produced - but that sound doctrine and holiness are the most important things.

Saved7
Oct 6th 2007, 05:23 PM
OK - maybe contradicting myself a bit there - I think that the works of the Spirit could be the "fruit" that is produced - but that sound doctrine and holiness are the most important things.

Just to help you out here, the works of the Spirit are not the "fruits" that Jesus is talking about.
There is scripture that tells us what "the fruits" are, and it is by THOSE fruits that you will know them, whether they know our Lord or not. They might be working miracles and so forth, but they are living just like the rest of the world, even Jesus stated, "away from me you that WORK iniquity".
Here is the scripture that describes the fruits that Jesus is referring to.


Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv#22)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv#23)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&verse=9&version=kjv#9)(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)


:D

divaD
Oct 6th 2007, 05:50 PM
Here's the questions I would like answered since I haven't fully studied up on church history. Apparently these gifts were manifested some 2000 yrs ago or so. My questions are these.
Have these gifts been continually in operation in the church since they were first manifested? Or did they cease for awhile
and start back up at a later time in history?
If the latter is true, then I don't understand why some would have these gifts now but a century or two ago they weren't in operation in the church. Pretty strange if that's the case.

godsgirl
Oct 7th 2007, 07:56 PM
Not strange at all-many truths of the church were lost to tradition or neglect-but now, in these last days, God is pouring out His Spirit.

We need not be afraid of some kind of 'demonic' tongue either-for we have Gods' Word on it.....

If you then, being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?

No one speaking by the Spirit of the Lord calls Jesus accursed.

For this promise is to you, to your children, to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It comes down to the bottom line-is Jesus your Lord? If so, then we certianly don't have to worry about speaking in tongues being demonic.

9Marksfan
Oct 7th 2007, 10:17 PM
Just to help you out here, the works of the Spirit are not the "fruits" that Jesus is talking about.
There is scripture that tells us what "the fruits" are, and it is by THOSE fruits that you will know them, whether they know our Lord or not. They might be working miracles and so forth, but they are living just like the rest of the world, even Jesus stated, "away from me you that WORK iniquity".
Here is the scripture that describes the fruits that Jesus is referring to.


Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv#22)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv#23)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&verse=9&version=kjv#9)(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)


:D

I completely agree - must have been having the spiritual equivalent of a "bad hair day" there! :rofl:

TEITZY
Oct 8th 2007, 12:35 AM
When we read what Paul writes in 1st John...



So Paul wrote 1 John? Please explain?




You know what, that makes no sense. Who else would Jesus be talking about thou.:hmm:

Who else could cast out devils in Jesus name and they come out other then those who are saved? If we say the unsaved, we are going against the scripture are we not?

So Jesus had to be talking to those who either thought they were saved because of the way they were taught and got deceived, or Jesus was talking to the unsaved.

Maybe I am not reading things right here. Maybe everything does not hang off of our Love walk with Our Lord.:hmm:


Notice in Matt 7 that JESUS never says they did these things, rather these were the claims made by those who did them. Jesus says, "I never knew you" which is a clear indication that they were never saved at any stage. So these false prophets, who were obviously ministers of satan, exercised counterfeit gifts (eg. prophesying & casting out demons) in the "name" of the Lord. Satan's greatest tool is deception and it doesn't matter if the signs and wonders are not genuine (most if not all are not), what matters is that people believe they are.

Cheers
Leigh

GothicAngel
Oct 8th 2007, 12:37 AM
Actually, these "exorcists" were casting out demons in the name of Lord Jesus. They could not do so under any other authority. As we have seen in the book of Acts, when these fakes encounter a more powerful demon, they are beaten, or otherwise posessed themselves.

How are they "fakes" if they were truly casting out some demons? That doesnt make sense.


I believe that Satan is very limited in his abilites, especially concerning the gifts. The one gift that he could have people imitate, in my opinion, is the speaking in different languages. If anyone seen the movie "300", they showed one example of an "oracle" who spoke in unintelligible language only to have someone else "interpret" that language. The only way thyis is possible is because if we understand that Satan has the kingdoms of men under his control, the idea of having someone speak in a different language would not seem so far fetched. Although God created all of those languages, Satan still had experience dealing with people in their languages. So, that one can be faked.

I do not mean gibberish. I have read of (not experienced course) possessed persons who could speak obsolete languages esp Aramaic, Ancient Greek, Latin, etc; persons who did not have training in these languages but who would nevertheless speak them fluently.


We have seen many people who claim to be "Christ Himself", which is them trying to fake the gift of prophecy. We all know that although Satan keeps on trying this tactic, it always fail. So, no, he can not re[plicate that gift. As far as the other gifts are concerned, opnly those with Love in their souls can do them, and that takes coming to the Lord Himself and accepting Him as Lord ands Savior. Satan can not imitate those gifts, I am certain of that.

I did not say prophecy, but rather knowledge of hidden things- things of the past that were covered up or never reveleaed.

My question still stands- why does it have to be from the bible?

ProjectPeter
Oct 8th 2007, 08:14 AM
You know what, that makes no sense. Who else would Jesus be talking about thou.:hmm:

Who else could cast out devils in Jesus name and they come out other then those who are saved? If we say the unsaved, we are going against the scripture are we not?

So Jesus had to be talking to those who either thought they were saved because of the way they were taught and got deceived, or Jesus was talking to the unsaved.

Maybe I am not reading things right here. Maybe everything does not hang off of our Love walk with Our Lord.:hmm:
Maybe Jesus was speaking to folks who were saved... ;)

Folks like to hang on that part of the passage "I never knew you" and it seems to be a hang up. But if the folks did miracles and cast out demons in the name of Jesus... and these folks were never saved and empowered by the Spirit of God to do this... then we get into some pretty big doctrinal issues.

But then go with me here for a second and see if this makes a little more sense but NOSAS alert. ;) I was trying to not get into that but then your post took me there!

Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.


This is a wonderful picture of forgiveness. All of our sins... when we turn to Christ are forgiven and they will not be remembered against us. But then there is a flip-side.

Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.


Just as God's forgiveness spans as far as east is from the west in His remembering our sins... that whole sea of forgetfulness... Same holds true for the righteous that turns to iniquity... our righteousness is treated the same while we will die in our iniquity. It is forgotten... will not be remembered any longer.

I can say "But God... I did this and I did that and those sure enough may have been the righteous things... but that is now forgotten and "away from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity."

ProjectPeter
Oct 8th 2007, 08:22 AM
Just to help you out here, the works of the Spirit are not the "fruits" that Jesus is talking about.
There is scripture that tells us what "the fruits" are, and it is by THOSE fruits that you will know them, whether they know our Lord or not. They might be working miracles and so forth, but they are living just like the rest of the world, even Jesus stated, "away from me you that WORK iniquity".
Here is the scripture that describes the fruits that Jesus is referring to.


Gal 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=22&version=kjv#22)But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Gal&chapter=5&verse=23&version=kjv#23)Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&verse=9&version=kjv#9)(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)


:DBut then we know that the Spirit is given to those who obey Him.

Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

So there still is a bit of an issue here. ;)

Sold Out
Oct 8th 2007, 02:14 PM
Well given the fact that satan and the demons that possess people have been around far longer than human life, I would think that they know every language man has ever spoken. And if they know every language and a person is possessed, wouldn't they be able to speak through that person in a different language? Demons spoke directly to our Lord through the people they possessed. So what makes you think that they wouldn't pretend to be the person speaking in tongues when in actuality, it is the demon speaking in an ancient language or even a current language? Wouldn't that be considered a false gift of "tongues"?
And the girl with a "spirit of divination" isn't that a false gift of "knowledge"? And what of "fortune tellers" who happen to get it right? Isn't that a false gift of "prophecy?"
And as for healings? What about these people who go to those "energy healers"? Some people actually get healed. And then they run around boasting how it's a mind over matter and there is no need for God.
Oops, wait a minute. Why would satan do such things against his own kingdom? Because he is doing to lead people astray, away from God's Kingdom. So in essence, he isn't divided against himself, he is deceiving people into believing a lie about Jesus. Many people have become convinced that it doesn't matter what you believe, because you can be healed through other means, and they have seen fortune tellers tell the "truth" about the future (however in an obscure way). But these things have people convinced that they don't have to trust in Jesus. Therefore, those same people go to hell...exactly what the devil is after.
Yes there are plenty of false gifts, but it's all in a matter of how you define it. I would think that these sort of biblical and nonbiblical examples are proof to you. But I guess you want to see an outright scritpure that proves it. EVen though you have been given scriptures, like the girl with a spirit of divination.;) Ya know, the bible doesn't have to always "spell" things out for us. Just because the bible doesn't declare these things as "false gifts from satan" doesn't mean that they aren't. That is our own label for these things that we know are not from God.

Great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BCF
Oct 8th 2007, 02:52 PM
Maybe Jesus was speaking to folks who were saved... ;)

Folks like to hang on that part of the passage "I never knew you" and it seems to be a hang up. But if the folks did miracles and cast out demons in the name of Jesus... and these folks were never saved and empowered by the Spirit of God to do this... then we get into some pretty big doctrinal issues.

But then go with me here for a second and see if this makes a little more sense but NOSAS alert. ;) I was trying to not get into that but then your post took me there!

Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.


This is a wonderful picture of forgiveness. All of our sins... when we turn to Christ are forgiven and they will not be remembered against us. But then there is a flip-side.

Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.


Just as God's forgiveness spans as far as east is from the west in His remembering our sins... that whole sea of forgetfulness... Same holds true for the righteous that turns to iniquity... our righteousness is treated the same while we will die in our iniquity. It is forgotten... will not be remembered any longer.

I can say "But God... I did this and I did that and those sure enough may have been the righteous things... but that is now forgotten and "away from me, I never knew you, you worker of iniquity."

Yes, I agree with you. I believe that the only people that Jesus could have been referring to in Matthew 7:21-23, are those who are saved or thought they were saved. There is too much scripture that proves that to me. I could sit here all day and write them all down for you, but then I would be taken this thread into one of those many, many OSAS vs NOSAS debates:B that I really don't want to turn this thread into. Although it may go there anyway.:rolleyes:

I recently said in the counseling thread that there is no such thing as a past addiction. Being a recovered addict I know this myself. I can sit here and tell my wife and you and everyone on this board that I am a former addict and that my addiction is in my past, and I am completely cured and will never fall into that addiction again. I can tell you all that, but I would be lying. Not to you people or to my wife, but to myself. Simple because I know that I must die daily to the temptation of my addiction. There is only three, who know the weakness of my addiction which would make me fall, and there is only three, who know the strength of my addiction which would make me over come it. Those three would be my Lord Jesus, myself, and the Enemy (Satan). I (myself) has a flesh that follows sin (Satan). I (myself) also has a Soul which follows my Spirit (Jesus in me). These two war against each other daily. If I tell (myself which is flesh) that I am completely cured of my addiction, I will fall into my addiction, because then I (myself which is flesh) would tell the Soul (which is Spirit) that I did not need him any more. But if I tell myself (which is flesh) that I am not cured but recovered, I tell my Soul (which is Spirit) that I need Him Always.

My position stands the same on the OSAS vs NOSAS issue or debates. I was a addict, but I am not a cured addict, because my addiction is not in my past. My actions from that addiction are in my past, but the sin of the addiction is still there. The sin is not in my heart(Spirit), but it is in my mind (flesh). I am a recovering addict, and will always be a recovering addict until Jesus calls me home. Because I must die daily to my flesh and the temptation to sin that Satan provides to my flesh (which is sin). But I Praise God for sending His Only Son Jesus Christ to die on a Cross, not for Himself but for us. So that He could Live within all who accept Him as King of King's and Lord of Lord's. So that through Jesus (Our Spirit) we can die daily to our flesh, and overcome the temptation of sin.

Not once and done (OSAS), BUT DAILY (NOSAS).:)

I can't have my cake and eat it too, when it comes to my addiction. I also in return won't give Satan a inch so that he can take a mile when it comes to my Eternal Life.;)

That's all I'm going to say about that issue.:)

God Bless

Dave

9Marksfan
Oct 27th 2007, 04:35 PM
Yes, I agree with you. I believe that the only people that Jesus could have been referring to in Matthew 7:21-23, are those who are saved or thought they were saved.

The latter certainly - but how can they have been saved if Jesus never knew them?!?


There is too much scripture that proves that to me. I could sit here all day and write them all down for you, but then I would be taken this thread into one of those many, many OSAS vs NOSAS debates:B that I really don't want to turn this thread into. Although it may go there anyway.:rolleyes:

Well you opened the door!


I recently said in the counseling thread that there is no such thing as a past addiction. Being a recovered addict I know this myself. I can sit here and tell my wife and you and everyone on this board that I am a former addict and that my addiction is in my past, and I am completely cured and will never fall into that addiction again. I can tell you all that, but I would be lying. Not to you people or to my wife, but to myself. Simple because I know that I must die daily to the temptation of my addiction. There is only three, who know the weakness of my addiction which would make me fall, and there is only three, who know the strength of my addiction which would make me over come it. Those three would be my Lord Jesus, myself, and the Enemy (Satan). I (myself) has a flesh that follows sin (Satan). I (myself) also has a Soul which follows my Spirit (Jesus in me). These two war against each other daily. If I tell (myself which is flesh) that I am completely cured of my addiction, I will fall into my addiction, because then I (myself which is flesh) would tell the Soul (which is Spirit) that I did not need him any more. But if I tell myself (which is flesh) that I am not cured but recovered, I tell my Soul (which is Spirit) that I need Him Always.

My position stands the same on the OSAS vs NOSAS issue or debates. I was a addict, but I am not a cured addict, because my addiction is not in my past. My actions from that addiction are in my past, but the sin of the addiction is still there. The sin is not in my heart(Spirit), but it is in my mind (flesh). I am a recovering addict, and will always be a recovering addict until Jesus calls me home. Because I must die daily to my flesh and the temptation to sin that Satan provides to my flesh (which is sin). But I Praise God for sending His Only Son Jesus Christ to die on a Cross, not for Himself but for us. So that He could Live within all who accept Him as King of King's and Lord of Lord's. So that through Jesus (Our Spirit) we can die daily to our flesh, and overcome the temptation of sin.

Not once and done (OSAS), BUT DAILY (NOSAS).:)

That section was MAGNIFICENT - until you came to the final word! It is TRAGIC if you think that you have to hold to NOSAS to believe that Christian growth is to be a daily thing - what you are saying is the TRUE OSAS ie perseverance of the saints (POTS)! Would it not be far more biblical to say "By God's grace today I WILL live for Him, die to sin and live for righteousness because that is what the LORD has saved me for! That is what He died for! And that is how I am called to live as a new creature! And, by His Spirit living in me, that is what I CAN BE!" - rather than "I'd better live this way, becuase if I don't, I may lose my salvation" - the first attitiude is POTS, the second is NOSAS - I'm 100% POTS! (yes, many people have thought that for years........ ;))

cross crusader
Oct 28th 2007, 07:27 PM
My position stands the same on the OSAS vs NOSAS issue or debates. I was a addict, but I am not a cured addict, because my addiction is not in my past. My actions from that addiction are in my past, but the sin of the addiction is still there. The sin is not in my heart(Spirit), but it is in my mind (flesh). I am a recovering addict, and will always be a recovering addict until Jesus calls me home.
God Bless

Dave[/quote]

I dont mean to rustle any feathers, but um... well first let me just throw this out there.... Was Paul a reformed murderer and one until he died? Look the Bible plainly says in Black and White, Hebrew and Greek, even probably Aramaic, that i have been delivered from every bondage, (speaking as in a former life that was crucified with Christ i was a meth addict, a crack addict, an adulterer, a fornicator, and numerous other things.) But according to what you just said i really have not been delivered from any of that.. The Bible says that i have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer i who live but Christ who lives in me. The Bible also states that i am a child of God, of the seed of Abraham, who was never under any bondage. I have a new bloodline, a new history, a new identity, the moment i was saved i was washed clean from any and every sin i committed. IT NEVER HAPPENED!!!! When you start saying those things you are opening the door for satan to jump on your shoulder and start reminding you of what you did in a former life. You and I are no longer that person. Those things in the eyes of God never happened. The Bible says he cannot remember my sins. so i am not going to either. I am not a recovering anything, I am a joint heir with Christ i have been adopted into a new family. I know that it is a daily walk but it starts with the understanding that i am nothing that i was before july 2, 2004. I was born again because that sinner died. ANd the new man emerged. And from personal experience it was instantaneous, no urges, no thoughts, no struggles because i realized who i was in Christ, and my inheritance through Him.

Anyway, there is power in the name of Jesus, just like the men who the disciples wanted to rebuke for casting out demons in the name of Jesus. They new the power in the name. Now I dont know if they were saved or not.

tgallison
Oct 28th 2007, 08:22 PM
So, you think it's a literal dragon in that passage? You believe Satan will be bound by a literal chain in chapter 20? I, personally, take Scripture literally where it is clear to me that it is literal and symbolic where it's clear to me that it is symbolic. I appreciate your opinion, however, and your willingness to try and comply with the request to keep things about Scripture.



I agree with all this, and I agree that many will do lying wonders. What I'm mainly asking is where do people get the idea that Satan can counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.


VerticalReality HI

Parables and allegories are pictures of reality. Is Satan bound by a chain? Well perhaps we could not understand God's method of containment for Satan, but whatever it is, he is contained. A parable doesn't change truth, it merely expresses it in a method we might understand. Is Satan a dragon? Well it probably doesn't begin to express what he is, but if you had a dragon in your face, you might wish for something a little milder.

Everything in the Bible is true, otherwise God is a liar, if it is directly from Him. (Contained in the original writings)

In the temptation of Jesus Christ, Matthew 4:8 did Satan hold in his hands the kingdoms of this world; were they his to give?

Give glory to God, terrell

cross crusader
Oct 28th 2007, 08:33 PM
VerticalReality HI



In the temptation of Jesus Christ, Matthew 4:8 did Satan hold in his hands the kingdoms of this world; were they his to give?

Give glory to God, terrell

In response to that, I do not think that the whole book of Revelation is either literal or allegorical, i belive and in fact i am pretty sure it is a mixture of both. Although you do raise an interesting point with your last question which is rather simple to answer, yes until Jesus died on the cross the kingdoms of this world were satans, or if you rather, were in his control. Scripture plainly states that satan is the god of this world. I mean isnt that how he entices men, with the ruling the world mentality? But through Christ we, christians, now retain dominion and authority through Christ of this world. We just need to exercise what God gave us, authority and dominion through Jesus.

tgallison
Oct 28th 2007, 10:50 PM
In response to that, I do not think that the whole book of Revelation is either literal or allegorical, i belive and in fact i am pretty sure it is a mixture of both. Although you do raise an interesting point with your last question which is rather simple to answer, yes until Jesus died on the cross the kingdoms of this world were satans, or if you rather, were in his control. Scripture plainly states that satan is the god of this world. I mean isnt that how he entices men, with the ruling the world mentality? But through Christ we, christians, now retain dominion and authority through Christ of this world. We just need to exercise what God gave us, authority and dominion through Jesus.


cross crusader Hi

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

This world represents the corruption of the curse. It is going to be rolled up like a scroll. There is more than enough evidence that Satan still has dominion over this world.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

VerticalReality
Oct 28th 2007, 11:15 PM
This world represents the corruption of the curse. It is going to be rolled up like a scroll. There is more than enough evidence that Satan still has dominion over this world.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

However, the believer is not of this world and the devil no longer has dominion over him/her.

Just one of many things that Jesus Christ restored to those who would believe.

tgallison
Oct 28th 2007, 11:52 PM
However, the believer is not of this world and the devil no longer has dominion over him/her.

Just one of many things that Jesus Christ restored to those who would believe.


VerticalReality Hi

Agreed Satan no longer has dominion over believers.

But we are still in this world and Satan has dominion over it.

Praise Jesus Christ

cross crusader
Oct 29th 2007, 01:37 AM
VerticalReality Hi

Agreed Satan no longer has dominion over believers.

But we are still in this world and Satan has dominion over it.

Praise Jesus Christ

The Bible states that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus. And Jesus says what he has been given He freely gives to us.
The Lord teaches us to pray that Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven, So since God has set up laws that he cannot break, He needs us to do his will on earth. So although satan has dominion of this world of which we are not a part, we still have authority to trump anything he wants to do. I mean if we really believe what the bible says about our authority in Christ. I mean if i really have the keys to heaven and earth then satans "dominion" really affects me in no way. Because he is beneath me. Any thoughts?

tgallison
Oct 29th 2007, 02:33 AM
The Bible states that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus. And Jesus says what he has been given He freely gives to us.
The Lord teaches us to pray that Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven, So since God has set up laws that he cannot break, He needs us to do his will on earth. So although satan has dominion of this world of which we are not a part, we still have authority to trump anything he wants to do. I mean if we really believe what the bible says about our authority in Christ. I mean if i really have the keys to heaven and earth then satans "dominion" really affects me in no way. Because he is beneath me. Any thoughts?


cross crusader HI

I agree, as long as we don't take our eyes off Jesus as Peter did.

Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

respectfully, terrell