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mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 12:34 AM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

Slug1
Oct 7th 2007, 12:38 AM
:lol: You say "sometimes"... so what about the other times, do we appear together and not confused?

I ask cause... well, I don't know, your question confuses me cause I don't know what you're basing your statement on.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 12:50 AM
The board is a great place to start. Nothing can be posted without someone, usually me, disagreeing. We even disagree on the so called "essentials." 2400 denominations, I don't know how many bible versions. What does saved mean? What about baptism? Once saved always saved? Calvinist or Arminian? Is there anything that we can actually be united on?

I can only imagine what non-christians would say if they came to this board and looked around?

Saved7
Oct 7th 2007, 12:50 AM
hmmmm, the only reason I can think is because we are still human and a lot of us live here in the west where it is easy to be a christian. :dunno:

Ya know, no real reason to really dig our heals in deep for a super strong faith and relationship. Most of us, just don't see the need to get any closer or even to press our way in to get closer. Ya know, we get to a point where we have understanding and feel we don't need to get much closer. But I tell you, people in nations where they are "desperate" daily for safety or food, or whatever, these people CLING to the Word of God like nothing else. It's all they have in many cases, the only hope they have. And while on the surface we know that Jesus is our only hope, but we often hope for a better job or a nicer home or a nicer neighborhood or whatever. They hope that their children will be returned to them in one piece after they have been taken by muslims.

punk
Oct 7th 2007, 12:56 AM
That's the price the religion pays for so much emphasis on correct belief.

Most religions don't worry quite so much that one believe all the right things so long as one is a member of the community.

When you start emphasizing proper belief in abstract metaphysical concepts, you are going to have division.

godsgirl
Oct 7th 2007, 12:56 AM
Well, this a discussion board after all-and that's what we're doing-just discussing things-it's family and that's what families do.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 12:58 AM
hmmmm, the only reason I can think is because we are still human and a lot of us live here in the west where it is easy to be a christian. :dunno:

Ya know, no real reason to really dig our heals in deep for a super strong faith and relationship. Most of us, just don't see the need to get any closer or even to press our way in to get closer. Ya know, we get to a point where we have understanding and feel we don't need to get much closer. But I tell you, people in nations where they are "desperate" daily for safety or food, or whatever, these people CLING to the Word of God like nothing else. It's all they have in many cases, the only hope they have. And while on the surface we know that Jesus is our only hope, but we often hope for a better job or a nicer home or a nicer neighborhood or whatever. They hope that their children will be returned to them in one piece after they have been taken by muslims.


But what about the small percentage that want to know the Truth at all cost? There's still disagreement and confusion.

Saved7
Oct 7th 2007, 12:59 AM
That's the price the religion pays for so much emphasis on correct belief.

Most religions don't worry quite so much that one believe all the right things so long as one is a member of the community.

When you start emphasizing proper belief in abstract metaphysical concepts, you are going to have division.


you have an excellent point.:hmm: We have a nasty habit of splitting hairs in our community.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:00 AM
Well, this a discussion board after all-and that's what we're doing-just discussing things-it's family and that's what families do.

OK but don't families come to a consensus every once in a while?

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:03 AM
That's the price the religion pays for so much emphasis on correct belief.

Most religions don't worry quite so much that one believe all the right things so long as one is a member of the community.

When you start emphasizing proper belief in abstract metaphysical concepts, you are going to have division.

Is the problem then that we have become a religion when we are supposed to be a body that functions together in spite of of our different parts.

punk
Oct 7th 2007, 01:05 AM
Is the problem then that we have become a religion when we are supposed to be a body that functions together in spite of of our different parts.

The problem is that we suppose there are answers to any question we can formulate.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:08 AM
The problem is that we suppose there are answers to any question we can formulate.
So what are we supposed to do with our questions? Do we do as we have always been told and stop asking questions?

punk
Oct 7th 2007, 01:12 AM
So what are we supposed to do with our questions? Do we do as we have always been told and stop asking questions?

We just have to realize that most of our questions are meaningless.

Usually when a person tells another to stop asking questions when the questions call an official "answer" into question. Realizing both the question and the "answer" are nonsense is a step forward.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:14 AM
We just have to realize that most of our questions are meaningless.

Usually when a person tells another to stop asking questions when the questions call an official "answer" into question. Realizing both the question and the "answer" are nonsense is a step forward.

Ok, How is a person saved? Is this a meaningless question?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102238- (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102238-Even) even in particular denominations.

punk
Oct 7th 2007, 01:18 AM
Ok, How is a person saved? Is this a meaningless question?

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102238- (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102238-Even)even in particular denominations.

It is a meaningless question.

The fact is the answer to "how is a person saved" usually only serves to tell you who can claim membership in a particular denomination.

If you are going to join a "born again" church then you must have had a "born again" type of experience, and you call that experience "being saved".

A saved person is saved, and a not saved person is not saved, and the only time the question comes up is when you are trying to claim membership in a community.

cheech
Oct 7th 2007, 01:19 AM
I'll be honest, I have thought the same thing at times. Then I think "What would be easier? Someone telling me what I need to know or handing me a Bible and saying "read the Gospels"?." I believe reading the Gospels would be easier because then I would read and have no other views to go by but what God has put in front of me. If I don't understand something, I would pray on it and wait for God's answer because he always has an answer for us when we ask.

Now, as Christians, we all agree upon the same thing...salvation in Christ, spreading the word, leading others to Christ, etc. This we do agree upon but everything else there will always be different views on...why? I don't know. Maybe because it's the enemy's job to create such confusion that we don't agree with each other on the minor things which distracts us from doing God's work at times. Confusion divides and when we are divided, we don't work in unity. I'm reminded of a couple verses:

1 Cor 12:24-26
But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

1 Cor 3:1-3
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

There is only one who is the author of confusion and it isn't God. When it comes down to it though, you strip away our views and put us together doing God's mission and I feel strongly that mission will get done. We might not agree with each other on tongues, tithing, and whatever else that's usually talked about, but when it comes to salvation in Christ, spreading the world of God, leading others to Christ so they may know our wonderful Savior as we know him, and being the servant Christ called us to be, then we have much in common.

Slug1
Oct 7th 2007, 01:25 AM
I once had a pastor say this and I wrote it down in my notebook:

"It's not in the knowledge of the Word that makes you a Christian - it's the practice of the Word that makes you a Christian."

Today I read this scripture and seems typical of the Holy Spirit to point something out to me that at that moment I was left wondering...Hmmmm?

Now with this thread it kinda make more sense now.

James1:22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:25 AM
It is a meaningless question.

The fact is the answer to "how is a person saved" usually only serves to tell you who can claim membership in a particular denomination.

If you are going to join a "born again" church then you must have had a "born again" type of experience, and you call that experience "being saved".

A saved person is saved, and a not saved person is not saved, and the only time the question comes up is when you are trying to claim membership in a community.


I actually agree? What is eternal life and how do I obtain it? Better?

punk
Oct 7th 2007, 01:30 AM
I actually agree? What is eternal life and how do I obtain it? Better?

Eternal life? No idea.

How can we talk about something so alien from our present experience? Our words only really mean things in the context of right now in the world around you.

Is eternal life even desireable? No idea.

I can talk about what you are doing right now in this world. Beyond that?

No idea.

We can certainly talk about what a Christian ought to be doing.

mikebr
Oct 7th 2007, 01:30 AM
I once had a pastor say this and I wrote it down in my notebook:

"It's not in the knowledge of the Word that makes you a Christian - it's the practice of the Word that makes you a Christian."

Today I read this scripture and seems typical of the Holy Spirit to point something out to me that at that moment I was left wondering...Hmmmm?

Now with this thread it kinda make more sense now.

James1:22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Wow! Are you suggesting that God works in spite of our confusion?:rofl:

Slug1
Oct 7th 2007, 01:44 AM
Wow! Are you suggesting that God works in spite of our confusion?:rofl:Hahaha, well it sure does appear that we're our own worse enemy sometimes when we stick with ideas that seem seeded by the enemy instead of from Jesus.

Saved7
Oct 7th 2007, 01:48 AM
OK but don't families come to a consensus every once in a while?


Sure, we all believe that Jesus is our Saviour and Lord, the Son of God and God manifested in the flesh. What more do we need?;)

Sold Out
Oct 8th 2007, 06:57 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

If Satan can make Christianity seem confusing, it will keep people from getting saved.

mikebr
Oct 8th 2007, 07:39 PM
If Satan can make Christianity seem confusing, it will keep people from getting saved.

So Satan can keep people from getting saved? Is God more powerful to save or is Satan more power to keep people from getting saved?

Sold Out
Oct 8th 2007, 07:46 PM
So Satan can keep people from getting saved? Is God more powerful to save or is Satan more power to keep people from getting saved?

Satan can make the message confusing....he did it in the garden of Eden, and he's been doing it ever since.

Remember, God said Satan is the god of this world.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." II Cor 4:4

watchinginawe
Oct 8th 2007, 07:47 PM
So Satan can keep people from getting saved? Is God more powerful to save or is Satan more power to keep people from getting saved?I know that is somewhat of a theological question, but what do you make of these words of Jesus (I won't post the whole thing)?

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

God Bless!

Toolman
Oct 8th 2007, 07:56 PM
The board is a great place to start. Nothing can be posted without someone, usually me, disagreeing. We even disagree on the so called "essentials." 2400 denominations, I don't know how many bible versions. What does saved mean? What about baptism? Once saved always saved? Calvinist or Arminian? Is there anything that we can actually be united on?

Well evangelicals and protestants usually agree on the following doctrines (which are often called "essential"):

There is 1 God who reveals Himself in 3 persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Christ's full deity and humanity.
Salvation through Christ alone.
Christ's death for sin and His bodily, physical resurrection.
His return and judgement of both living and dead.

The apostle's and nicene creed pretty much lay out these doctrines.

FWIW.

godsgirl
Oct 8th 2007, 11:23 PM
OK but don't families come to a consensus every once in a while?

Sure and that's why we have denominations.

punk
Oct 8th 2007, 11:23 PM
If Satan can make Christianity seem confusing, it will keep people from getting saved.

So some people are saved because they are smart, and some people are damned because they are dumb!?!

AlainaJ
Oct 9th 2007, 12:14 AM
So what are we supposed to do with our questions? Do we do as we have always been told and stop asking questions?
N0- we are to ask questions and discuss. Discuss in love. If we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ should we not be able to show love at all times?

The Holy Spirit will lead each of us to come to the correct answer.

Yes, it can be very frustrating..but the harder we contend for the faith, the stronger we get in our faith.:)

Toymom
Oct 9th 2007, 12:36 AM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?
I think that your avatar is making you confused. He looks quite confused you know. :lol:

mikebr
Oct 9th 2007, 03:09 AM
I think that your avatar is making you confused. He looks quite confused you know. :lol:


Actually Patrick Star is the confused one. Squidward is just really angry.:lol:

Sold Out
Oct 9th 2007, 12:51 PM
So some people are saved because they are smart, and some people are damned because they are dumb!?!

Actually, it's quite the opposite.

But what I mean is that the MESSAGE is confusing...muddled...not clear. The Gospel starts getting watered down and wrong information creeps in. It's not the hearer - it's the message.

mikebr
Oct 9th 2007, 02:18 PM
Actually, it's quite the opposite.

But what I mean is that the MESSAGE is confusing...muddled...not clear. The Gospel starts getting watered down and wrong information creeps in. It's not the hearer - it's the message.


So will some go to hell because they devoutly believed the wrong message? Is it their fault that the only message they've heard is wrong?

Sold Out
Oct 9th 2007, 02:21 PM
So will some go to hell because they devoutly believed the wrong message? Is it their fault that the only message they've heard is wrong?

Yes, because we ALL have access to the truth, whatever measure it is. No one will have an excuse.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20

It's unfortunate that probably 1 billion Muslims, 12 million Mormons and I think 2 million Jehovah's Witnesses will not make it to heaven. But they have access to the same truth we do and will be held accountable for that.

matthew94
Oct 9th 2007, 02:41 PM
I disagree that there is any significant disagreement about the essentials among the professing Christians on this message board. The only problem is sometimes our 'essentials' list gets longer than Scriptures 'essentials' list.

I'd suppose that 99% of confessing believers on this message board agree that

1. God exists
2. God cares/is-personal
3. Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is who He said He is
4. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Lord, Messiah
5. Jesus rose from the dead

Scripture is very clear that we MUST believe those 5 things and I doubt very much that more than a few people would even attempt to claim Christianity while denying any of those 5.

As for disputes over non-essentials, of course they exist. No 2 people in the entire world agree on everything. No families have identical opinions. No Christians are identical in secondary doctrinal positions. I don't find that distressing at all.

In fact, when large groups of people begin to see secondary issues in a largely identical way...they're usually considered a cult!

mikebr
Oct 9th 2007, 03:49 PM
I disagree that there is any significant disagreement about the essentials among the professing Christians on this message board. The only problem is sometimes our 'essentials' list gets longer than Scriptures 'essentials' list.

I'd suppose that 99% of confessing believers on this message board agree that

1. God exists
2. God cares/is-personal
3. Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is who He said He is
4. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Lord, Messiah
5. Jesus rose from the dead

Scripture is very clear that we MUST believe those 5 things and I doubt very much that more than a few people would even attempt to claim Christianity while denying any of those 5.

As for disputes over non-essentials, of course they exist. No 2 people in the entire world agree on everything. No families have identical opinions. No Christians are identical in secondary doctrinal positions. I don't find that distressing at all.

In fact, when large groups of people begin to see secondary issues in a largely identical way...they're usually considered a cult!


Of all the church splits in the History of the Church do you believe that any split over those five essentials. Kinda doubtful huh? So are you saying that you don't find that distressing at all?

Theophilus
Oct 9th 2007, 04:08 PM
The board is a great place to start. Nothing can be posted without someone, usually me, disagreeing...

Yes, but Mike, your disagreement is couched is graciousness...and that's what I see such a sad lack of in many posts.

As a mod in BC, I must admit to getting tired of seeing the "same ol', same ol'" topics over and over again...but even more than that, I get tired of sarcasm, self-righteousness, holier than thou, condemning words and attitudes from people who are supposed to be our brothers and sisters.

I've said if before, and I'll repeat myself here: Zeal and conviction in your beliefs is a wonderful and admirable thing, but what really impresses me is someone who takes the time to post something, really trying to think it through before posting...because they want to teach, encourage, or even rebuke without giving offense.

People will take offense even where it wasn't intended, to be sure...but when that happens, those folks who are really trying to speak truth in love will apologize, edit, or rephrase...still make their "point"...and leave everyone with a good taste in their mouth.

I see folks on here I know who love the Lord...but who really should think twice about posting, as they speak the truth, all right, but are so concerned about being right, they don't care how their post comes out, or who they might offend. That kind of post turns me off...and I'm sure it turns off people who look at such posts as harsh and condemning.

I will not compromise my beliefs...but I can certainly state them with love in focus. I can use strong words, but make it obvious that love underlies what I say.

That is what makes a post appealing...winsomeness, honesty, and love.

Lack of those things is why there's so much devisiveness, IMHO.

Toolman
Oct 9th 2007, 04:09 PM
Of all the church splits in the History of the Church do you believe that any split over those five essentials. Kinda doubtful huh? So are you saying that you don't find that distressing at all?

Mike,

I think most church splits usually happen over money and power and less time over doctrinal issues.

Interestingly the protestant reformers worried about this very thing. The reformers wanted to reform Rome (hence the name reformers :)) not to split from it and start anew. Their fear was that once that happened the flood gate would open to just what we see now, hundreds of various denominations of Christianity.

But, if God is sovereign (and He is), then it is within His plan and purpose that each individual be given the liberty to study the scriptures and determine, for himself/herself, what God has said, knowing that we all shall give an account one day before His throne.

The priesthood of the believer is a scary doctrine to authority and sometimes for ourselves. If we don't believe in it though then all of us evangelicals and protestants should leave our churches and rejoin with Rome.

Your thoughts?

IBWatching
Oct 9th 2007, 04:24 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

Where do you think satan concentrates most his work? Who do you think he finds the most dangerous to him?

Let's face it. We all have big targets on us. We are engaged (or should be) in a battle where most the the combatants can't be seen or recognized by most of the world. They don't have a clue. Not only that, but satan often enlists them in his war against us.

We can only pray and read the Word. They are the only offensive weapons we have in this war. We have God's armor for defense (Eph 6:11-18).

Teke
Oct 9th 2007, 04:31 PM
It is a meaningless question.

The fact is the answer to "how is a person saved" usually only serves to tell you who can claim membership in a particular denomination.

If you are going to join a "born again" church then you must have had a "born again" type of experience, and you call that experience "being saved".

A saved person is saved, and a not saved person is not saved, and the only time the question comes up is when you are trying to claim membership in a community.

Truthful words. :)
I wasn't raised in religions, and when God called I wasn't in any religions, but when I went to find someone to baptize me, my religious experience began. :P See that lil smilie with his tongue out, that is what I think about religions.

Religion never helped me in any way other than finding other people who were seeking like I was and wanted to worship (or learn to worship). The seeking continues.......

matthew94
Oct 9th 2007, 04:40 PM
Of all the church splits in the History of the Church do you believe that any split over those five essentials. Kinda doubtful huh? So are you saying that you don't find that distressing at all?

I don't think all church splits are bad. It's not as if we cease to be united in the Spirit just because we go in different physical directions. Think of Paul & Barnabas. They came into sharp dispute regarding John-Mark and split up. But the results of this were actually good. Now there were 2 missions teams instead of 1. There was a second positive that came from this too, but it'll take a moment to explain.

The dispute was over John-Mark who had abandoned the team on the 1st missionary journey. Barnabas wanted to give him a second chance. Paul didn't want to risk the integrity of the mission. They both had good motives. Barnabas' motive was grace. Paul's motive was stewardship. In my opinion, neither of them was wrong. It was NECESSARY that they disagreed.

Put yourself in John-Mark's shoes. What if EVERYONE was like Barnabas. If that were the case, John-Mark may not have taken his previous failure very seriously. He might have reasoned to himself 'it is no big deal if I quit following the will of God from time to time, i will just get a fresh start whenever i want.' In other words, he may have developed a 'cheap' view of grace. On the other hand, what if EVERYONE was like Paul. If that were the case, John-Mark may have been so discouraged that his 1 time failure eliminated him from consideration that he might have reasoned to himself 'i have failed the Lord. I cannot be forgiven. I am of no use to the church or to anybody.' He may even have left the faith.

But because there was DISPUTE and DISAGREEMENT, John-Mark received grace that wasn't cheap and warning that wasn't paralyzing. The dispute was good for John-Mark.

I consider a lot of doctrinal disputes to be good as well. The disputes between individuals and denominations help to balance the universal church as a whole. And sometimes it's not so much a 'division' within the church, but a different emphasis. Some churches emphasize grace. Some sovereignty. Some eschatology. Some evangelism. Some truth. Etc. Different emphasis doesn't equal bodily division.

Of course, there are some Christians, and some local churches, and some whole denominations within Christianity that do think of themselves as 'divided' from the rest (or, more likely, the rest as 'divided' from them), but I think that's usually their mistake. There is no need to interpret disagreement as division. There is no need to interpret differing location as dis-unity.

punk
Oct 9th 2007, 05:31 PM
Actually, it's quite the opposite.

But what I mean is that the MESSAGE is confusing...muddled...not clear. The Gospel starts getting watered down and wrong information creeps in. It's not the hearer - it's the message.

Ah so God created some people smart because he wants them to go to Hell, and some people dumb because he wants them to go to Heaven.

I see.

Sold Out
Oct 9th 2007, 06:53 PM
Ah so God created some people smart because he wants them to go to Hell, and some people dumb because he wants them to go to Heaven.

I see.


What I SEE is that you are attempting to twist my words.

punk
Oct 9th 2007, 06:58 PM
What I SEE is that you are attempting to twist my words.

Not really.

Either way you are making some claim that one's ability to be saved is correlated to one's intelligence.

So some people have an "easier" time being saved than others.

Do you really want to go there?

Sold Out
Oct 9th 2007, 07:35 PM
Not really.

Either way you are making some claim that one's ability to be saved is correlated to one's intelligence.

So some people have an "easier" time being saved than others.

Do you really want to go there?

No I am not. YOU are making that assumption...and you know what that say about people who assume......:)

The salvation message is the same all the way around...in fact it's so simple, and Christ said it was!

The greatest hindrance to men being saved is the simplicity of salvation. Men and movements love to place difficult “do’s and don’ts” on their people when it comes to salvation, but God says it’s simpler than all that. Salvation is as simple as:

1. Taking a drink of water – Christ said to the woman at the well in John 4:13-14,

“Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

2. Eating a piece of bread – Christ said to the Jews in John 6:32-35,51,

“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true BREAD from heaven.
For the BREAD OF GOD is HE which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I AM theBREAD OF LIFE: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
I AM the LIVING BREAD which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

3. Entering a door – Christ said to the Pharisees in John 10:7-9,

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I AM THE DOOR: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.”

4. Receiving a gift – Christ said in John 4:10,

“If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

5. Calling for help – The thief on the cross said in Luke 23:42,

“Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

6. Coming when called – Christ said to all who would listen in Matthew 11:27-30,

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the SON, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

7. Trusting in Jesus to save you – Christ said to Martha in John 11:25,

“I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Don’t stumble over the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ!

punk
Oct 9th 2007, 07:52 PM
I never disputed the simplicity.

Let us examine the reasoning that got us here:

1. There is a message of salvation
2. The Devil tries to confuse the message

Now the Devil can only confuse the message by somehow garbling it.

But note: this all presupposes that the message is somehow intellectual, and that a person gets saved by thinking about and understanding the message somehow.

Salvation becomes an intellectual exercise of understanding and affirming particular doctrines.

So (depending on how you look at it) either smarter or dumber people are more likely to be saved.

I'm objecting to the too intellectual process of:

message->understanding message->affirming truth of message->salvation

which seems to underlie all of this.

Sold Out
Oct 9th 2007, 08:36 PM
I never disputed the simplicity.

Let us examine the reasoning that got us here:

1. There is a message of salvation
2. The Devil tries to confuse the message

Now the Devil can only confuse the message by somehow garbling it.

But note: this all presupposes that the message is somehow intellectual, and that a person gets saved by thinking about and understanding the message somehow.

Salvation becomes an intellectual exercise of understanding and affirming particular doctrines.

So (depending on how you look at it) either smarter or dumber people are more likely to be saved.

I'm objecting to the too intellectual process of:

message->understanding message->affirming truth of message->salvation

which seems to underlie all of this.

bottom line - we are accountable for what we know, not on our intellectual capability to know it.

punk
Oct 9th 2007, 09:18 PM
bottom line - we are accountable for what we know, not on our intellectual capability to know it.

I have no idea what you could possibly mean by that.

It sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

Sold Out
Oct 10th 2007, 12:59 PM
I have no idea what you could possibly mean by that.

It sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

We are accountable for what we CAN understand.

We are not accountable for what we can't understand.

If a mentally retarded person never comes to the point where they can understand their sin or salvation, they are not accountable.

"....Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25

Brother Mark
Oct 10th 2007, 01:09 PM
I'm objecting to the too intellectual process of:

message->understanding message->affirming truth of message->salvation

which seems to underlie all of this.

I think you are on to something here. Doctrine does not save people, Jesus does.

There are very few things we must really grasp in our souls to get saved. My favorite example is the publican who cried out "God be merciful to me a sinner". While the mind plays a role, it is a minimum role in salvation. More important is the response of the heart to God when he is dealing with us.

Sold Out
Oct 10th 2007, 01:13 PM
I think you are on to something here. Doctrine does not save people, Jesus does.

.

True.

BUT...we do have to have basic information to respond to....the Gospel.

Brother Mark
Oct 10th 2007, 01:42 PM
True.

BUT...we do have to have basic information to respond to....the Gospel.

But it is very, very basic. There are many examples. Abraham simply believed God and he was saved. We just respond to God. It's not scripture or doctrine we respond to. It is the person of God.

God may deal with each person differently. The Ethiopian eunich did not understand so God sent Phillip. The same with Cornelius and Peter. But the publican did not even call on Jesus but instead called on God and was saved.

I know people who didn't even know who Jesus was that got saved. When they heard of Jesus, they said "Oh, he is the one I have trusted for years". I have some Palestinian friends that knew of God but not much. They knew, that unless God provided a way, they were doomed. For years, they understood that God had to provide a way for them to be saved. They did not know Jesus or Christian doctrine, yet they trusted the God of creation to provide a way for them to be saved from their sins. When they were presented with Christ, they recognized Jesus as the way. If you speak to them, they will tell you they were saved a long time before they knew who Jesus really was. I think they were too. They were trusting in God, to act in grace, for deliverance of their sins. The reason I think they were saved before is because Jesus said "if you believed Moses, you would believe me". So we know when someone believes God, they will believe in Christ.

So we can argue about trinity (which Abraham didn't know about but was saved), atonement (which Rahab didn't know about but was saved), and many other doctrines. In the end, it is all about how a person responds when God calls them and not what a person does or does not know.

Sold Out
Oct 10th 2007, 03:11 PM
But it is very, very basic. There are many examples. Abraham simply believed God and he was saved. We just respond to God. It's not scripture or doctrine we respond to. It is the person of God.

God may deal with each person differently. The Ethiopian eunich did not understand so God sent Phillip. The same with Cornelius and Peter. But the publican did not even call on Jesus but instead called on God and was saved.

I know people who didn't even know who Jesus was that got saved. When they heard of Jesus, they said "Oh, he is the one I have trusted for years". I have some Palestinian friends that knew of God but not much. They knew, that unless God provided a way, they were doomed. For years, they understood that God had to provide a way for them to be saved. They did not know Jesus or Christian doctrine, yet they trusted the God of creation to provide a way for them to be saved from their sins. When they were presented with Christ, they recognized Jesus as the way. If you speak to them, they will tell you they were saved a long time before they knew who Jesus really was. I think they were too. They were trusting in God, to act in grace, for deliverance of their sins. The reason I think they were saved before is because Jesus said "if you believed Moses, you would believe me". So we know when someone believes God, they will believe in Christ.

So we can argue about trinity (which Abraham didn't know about but was saved), atonement (which Rahab didn't know about but was saved), and many other doctrines. In the end, it is all about how a person responds when God calls them and not what a person does or does not know.

I agree with you.

I read a book about a year ago called 'Eternity in their Hearts', and it was fantastic. It answered all those nagging questions about how indigineous tribes in remote locations can have access to or possess the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Quite an eye-opener.

ikester7579
Oct 10th 2007, 03:31 PM
But what about the small percentage that want to know the Truth at all cost? There's still disagreement and confusion.

This is the reason I'm non-denominational. I strive for truth. And I have done it at the expense of making a lot of people mad. But I find that the truth, and the search for it, brings me peace.

BrianW
Oct 10th 2007, 03:51 PM
I'll be honest, I have thought the same thing at times. Then I think "What would be easier? Someone telling me what I need to know or handing me a Bible and saying "read the Gospels"?." I believe reading the Gospels would be easier because then I would read and have no other views to go by but what God has put in front of me. If I don't understand something, I would pray on it and wait for God's answer because he always has an answer for us when we ask.

Now, as Christians, we all agree upon the same thing...salvation in Christ, spreading the word, leading others to Christ, etc. This we do agree upon but everything else there will always be different views on...why? I don't know. Maybe because it's the enemy's job to create such confusion that we don't agree with each other on the minor things which distracts us from doing God's work at times. Confusion divides and when we are divided, we don't work in unity. I'm reminded of a couple verses:

1 Cor 12:24-26
But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

1 Cor 3:1-3
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

There is only one who is the author of confusion and it isn't God. When it comes down to it though, you strip away our views and put us together doing God's mission and I feel strongly that mission will get done. We might not agree with each other on tongues, tithing, and whatever else that's usually talked about, but when it comes to salvation in Christ, spreading the world of God, leading others to Christ so they may know our wonderful Savior as we know him, and being the servant Christ called us to be, then we have much in common.


Seems like the perfect answer to me.

jeffreys
Oct 10th 2007, 04:01 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

First of all, it's because people are people - and we have an enormous capacity for doing dumb things!

Second, I think it might be because we're not absolutely sure of, and agreed on, what is absolutely essential and what is optional.

And third, because we let our pride get very much in the way. There's no way we want to admit that maybe, just maybe, something we though could have been partially wrong.

faithfulfriend
Oct 10th 2007, 04:03 PM
:lol: You say "sometimes"... so what about the other times, do we appear together and not confused?

I ask cause... well, I don't know, your question confuses me cause I don't know what you're basing your statement on.

Instead of searching the scriptures with their whole heart and learning what the Bible truths really are, most people just hang on to the beliefs that they have been taught growing up and refuse to ever change their minds/hearts. Because so many people believe so many different things, "Christians" become confused.

The Bible says God is not the author of confusion.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (I Corinthians 14:33)

Mograce2U
Oct 10th 2007, 04:21 PM
I think it is our works mentality that causes us confusion - we want something static that we can lay claim to and hold fast to. Faith however is dynamic, we must continue believing and abiding in Christ and hold fast to His word, lest we slip back. Faith is more about "being" than "doing". We rest in Him and persevere at the same time. We tend to look at past good works and present sin and yet persist in thinking that God will grade on a curve. But according to Ezekiel 18 that is not the case; a man who returns to wickedness will be judged for it, while a wicked man who turns to righteousness will not. His ways are not our ways and that is what confuses us!

punk
Oct 10th 2007, 05:04 PM
We are accountable for what we CAN understand.

We are not accountable for what we can't understand.

If a mentally retarded person never comes to the point where they can understand their sin or salvation, they are not accountable.

"....Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25

Shouldn't we then give everyone brain damage at birth so as to make their salvation more likely?

Theophilus
Oct 10th 2007, 05:20 PM
Shouldn't we then give everyone brain damage at birth so as to make their salvation more likely?
We are going to need a pry bar to get your tongue out of your cheek, punk!

:lol:

Sold Out
Oct 10th 2007, 06:19 PM
We are going to need a pry bar to get your tongue out of your cheek, punk!

:lol:


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

mikebr
Oct 11th 2007, 01:18 AM
No it doesn't. Let's say all babies aborted go to heaven. It still matters because it is still murder. The end does not justify the means. Or does it to you? Can evil be good?

Can evil be good?
I would ask can good come from evil? If murder of babies is evil and they go to heaven then good comes from evil. If they don't then God seems evil for sending innocent unborn babies to burn for all eternity? You can banter back and forth till the cows come home but this is a problem when placed against mainstream Christian teachings. Its not really an issue of good and evil, it seems to me to be an issue of right or wrong teachings.:hmm:

Brother Mark
Oct 11th 2007, 01:32 AM
Can evil be good?
I would ask can good come from evil? If murder of babies is evil and they go to heaven then good comes from evil. If they don't then God seems evil for sending innocent unborn babies to burn for all eternity? You can banter back and forth till the cows come home but this is a problem when placed against mainstream Christian teachings. Its not really an issue of good and evil, it seems to me to be an issue of right or wrong teachings.:hmm:

Oh hogwash. God doesn't send anyone to hell. They go because they reject him. ;)

Of course God can use evil for good but that doesn't make evil good. Murder is evil regardless of the outcome.

TrustingFollower
Oct 11th 2007, 02:06 AM
The abortion part of this thread has been moved to here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=102569).

mikebr
Oct 11th 2007, 07:14 PM
Oh hogwash. God doesn't send anyone to hell. They go because they reject him. ;)

Of course God can use evil for good but that doesn't make evil good. Murder is evil regardless of the outcome.


So unborn babies can reject God? or are you saying that you have proof that innocent people go to heaven just because they are innocent?

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:09 PM
Keep it up br. These are good questions and good thoughts. The answers of which are there. Once you find them, you may feel alone, but please know that you are not.

Have you ever been to the SHORASHIM board?

If not, check it out.

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 08:09 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

Maybe it's because of what the Church is doing to it's people!:cry:

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:14 PM
Maybe it's because of what the Church is doing to it's people!:cry:

More! Tell us More!

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 08:19 PM
Well, if you don't give the Church enough money, you are not a good enough Christian, if you don't hang out with the preacher and / the elders, you are not good enough.
If you stumble, you are lost and you have to be punished.
if you are sick and stay in bed on a Sunday morning, you are a weak Christian and you don't deserve to be healed because of your lack of faith.
No wonder Christians are confused and fragmented!!!!

The Parson
Oct 11th 2007, 08:21 PM
Shouldn't we then give everyone brain damage at birth so as to make their salvation more likely?Golley Gee Punk. You trying to make a point here??? Wish you would make it more plainly!!! :eek:

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:31 PM
Well, if you don't give the Church enough money, you are not a good enough Christian, if you don't hang out with the preacher and / the elders, you are not good enough.
If you stumble, you are lost and you have to be punished.
if you are sick and stay in bed on a Sunday morning, you are a weak Christian and you don't deserve to be healed because of your lack of faith.
No wonder Christians are confused and fragmented!!!!

Good start Good start.

How about the false doctrine that has to be fed to us to convince us to give the money. Even gone as far as changing the words in the bible to fit. All in the name of building a money machine and calling it by its heretical and laughable name "Church". Then somehow convincing people that this is in fact the "Body of Christ" and if your not a part of it you are threatened by a swath of people who will personally damn you to hell. and throw you to the dogs. At the very least you won't get milk and cookies on Sunday and won't get to have that yearly camping trip with the pastor and his wife.

:rofl:

Tip-o-the-iceberg my righteously indignant friends.

Keep talking!

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 08:36 PM
I'm new here, still trying to figure everything out:blush:

punk
Oct 11th 2007, 08:39 PM
Golley Gee Punk. You trying to make a point here??? Wish you would make it more plainly!!! :eek:

Well you have to go to the chunk of the thread that was moved to controversial.

:lol:

The idea in its variations is:

1. Our goal as Christians is to populate heaven with as many people as possible
2. If we assume that something X makes it more likely for a person to get to heaven we should do it (so if death as an infant sends you straight to heaven we should engage in abortion or infanticide, if less intelligent people are more likely to get in than more intelligent, we should induce brain damage, etc.)
3. Well that thing X is absurd and evil

therefore:

We cannot make the claim that some trait makes some people more likely to get to heaven than others


The last part (after the therefore) is the statement I'm really interested in. Everyone just gets caught up in the (deliberately) ridiculous statement I use to get there.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:41 PM
I'm new here, still trying to figure everything out:blush:

I bless God for inspiring your efforts.

I bless God for reaching out to all of his children.

I bless God for you Samantha.

Welcome.

and sorry if I came off pressure like. It's just that what mike and maybe you are going through needs to be heard and understood by what is left of the kindred hearts of this world.

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 08:45 PM
thank you for the warm welcome!

no pressure, really. I want to talk about it because it's really ridiculous.
I left the Church because of this. I really had a very bad experience

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:49 PM
thank you for the warm welcome!

no pressure, really. I want to talk about it because it's really ridiculous.
I left the Church because of this. I really had a very bad experience

This may seem like an odd question, but has anyone threatened your "eternal security" because of the incident?

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 08:56 PM
well, basically I was sent to hell and back. I'm not worthy of God's love and will never have it.

SIG
Oct 11th 2007, 08:57 PM
I have not waded through the whole thread--but I do see it has led to more discussion....:D

There are points that Christians agree on, which are not open to discussion (eg, Jesus wins in the end); these unifying points we do not discuss or argue.

But arguable points--and there are MANY--we DO discuss. It appears to make us look fragmented, but it is good exercise if it causes us to focus on God and His will for us.

There is still ONE Spirit. When you become discouraged at all the diversty, focus in Him.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 08:59 PM
well, basically I was sent to hell and back. I'm not worthy of God's love and will never have it.

Is somebody telling you that or making you feel that way?

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 09:03 PM
both :cry::cry:

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 11th 2007, 09:08 PM
OK.

I'm gonna ask a favor of you.

Got to the "Maturing in Christ" forum and tell us all about it.

Lets see if we can let God deal with your situation through love, instead of the devil through the unrighteous judgments of men.

Sound good?

Samantha
Oct 11th 2007, 09:09 PM
that's fine, I will do that

mikebr
Oct 11th 2007, 09:17 PM
thank you for the warm welcome!

no pressure, really. I want to talk about it because it's really ridiculous.
I left the Church because of this. I really had a very bad experience

Samantha, good to have you on board. You are welcome here although you will be questioned extensively on what you believe. Its all good though. We, meaning me and you and everyone else here who call themselves followers of Christ, have got to stop beating each other up over the questions that divide us. We will bend over backwards to get someone to act like us, look like us, sing like us, and pray like us, so that we can call them saved. But the moment they start questioning doctrinal beliefs or church practices then all monkey juice breaks loose and all of a sudden they "must not really be saved." About two years ago I began to question the doctrine of hell the way it has been taught. It has been one more ride. But a good one. God loves you just the way you are. He is not surprised by where you are in your walk with Him, Samantha. Don't let anyone tell you different.
:hug:

The Parson
Oct 11th 2007, 11:51 PM
Well you have to go to the chunk of the thread that was moved to controversial.

:lol:

The idea in its variations is:

1. Our goal as Christians is to populate heaven with as many people as possible
2. If we assume that something X makes it more likely for a person to get to heaven we should do it (so if death as an infant sends you straight to heaven we should engage in abortion or infanticide, if less intelligent people are more likely to get in than more intelligent, we should induce brain damage, etc.)
3. Well that thing X is absurd and evil

therefore:

We cannot make the claim that some trait makes some people more likely to get to heaven than others


The last part (after the therefore) is the statement I'm really interested in. Everyone just gets caught up in the (deliberately) ridiculous statement I use to get there.I understand what you mean punk. As you and I usually wind up on opposite sides of the cow pasture, it surpriseth me that I mightest agree with thee. :eek:

Where I do believe in the age of accountability, I find I can agree that we tend to focus more on the gimmes and less on the things that cause us to work in Gods service. If you get my meaning. Mankind would make good lawyers as we are constantly looking for loopholes.

Mograce2U
Oct 12th 2007, 02:22 AM
Good start Good start.

How about the false doctrine that has to be fed to us to convince us to give the money. Even gone as far as changing the words in the bible to fit. All in the name of building a money machine and calling it by its heretical and laughable name "Church". Then somehow convincing people that this is in fact the "Body of Christ" and if your not a part of it you are threatened by a swath of people who will personally damn you to hell. and throw you to the dogs. At the very least you won't get milk and cookies on Sunday and won't get to have that yearly camping trip with the pastor and his wife.

:rofl:

Tip-o-the-iceberg my righteously indignant friends.

Keep talking!Where did you find a church that gives out milk and cookies - I wanta go there!

Mograce2U
Oct 12th 2007, 02:35 AM
Well, if you don't give the Church enough money, you are not a good enough Christian, if you don't hang out with the preacher and / the elders, you are not good enough.
If you stumble, you are lost and you have to be punished.
if you are sick and stay in bed on a Sunday morning, you are a weak Christian and you don't deserve to be healed because of your lack of faith.
No wonder Christians are confused and fragmented!!!!Hi Samantha,
Well I see you are not buying what these sellers of oil are selling. Even though such a guilt trip works so well in the world. Hmmm. The clubhouse is not what its cracked up to be is it?

You are not alone. I was once told I couldn't be part of a ministry because they had no record of my 'tithes" - I gave cash according to "not let your right hand know what your left hand is doing". Which apparently was not good enough. I quit tithing pretty soon after that, and then shortly after left never to return (but not for that reason).

I think it is important to keep in mind that our fellowship with one another is to be IN THE LORD. Everything else is fluff. You do not have to be a fluffy Christian, despite what some may tell you.

Welcome to the board!

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 12th 2007, 02:51 AM
Where did you find a church that gives out milk and cookies - I wanta go there!

:rofl:

Pick any of em. The milk and cookies are usually found next the hope voiding eternal security doctrine.

:saint:

ravi4u2
Oct 12th 2007, 02:57 AM
There is a video titled 'The Dropouts' (http://lifegathering.bravejournal.com/entry/22426), that might be relevant here.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 12th 2007, 03:06 AM
There is a video titled 'The Dropouts' (http://lifegathering.bravejournal.com/entry/22426), that might be relevant here.
That one wasnt working. here is the same vid. It might work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbsjaDhPVY8

brakelite
Oct 12th 2007, 07:49 AM
This is the reason I'm non-denominational. I strive for truth. And I have done it at the expense of making a lot of people mad. But I find that the truth, and the search for it, brings me peace.

So many claim now to be non-denominational. I wonder if non-denominational churches are becoming the biggest denomination??;):hmm:

punk
Oct 12th 2007, 06:34 PM
So many claim now to be non-denominational. I wonder if non-denominational churches are becoming the biggest denomination??;):hmm:

Ah, even the non-conformists are conformist (in a stereotypically non-conformist sort of way)....

How will we ever express or individuality?

Mograce2U
Oct 12th 2007, 06:43 PM
Ah, even the non-conformists are conformist (in a stereotypically non-conformist sort of way)....

How will we ever express or individuality?Or perhaps our rebellion?;)

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 12th 2007, 06:47 PM
Ah, even the non-conformists are conformist (in a stereotypically non-conformist sort of way)....

How will we ever express or individuality?

What gives you the idea that we need to?

punk
Oct 12th 2007, 06:52 PM
What gives you the idea that we need to?

Because God created us all as individuals.

We should be who we are.

Sold Out
Oct 12th 2007, 06:53 PM
Ah, even the non-conformists are conformist (in a stereotypically non-conformist sort of way)....

How will we ever express or individuality?


BATTLECRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ravi4u2
Oct 12th 2007, 06:56 PM
Because God created us all as individuals.

We should be who we are.The individuals are made for connections. The individualistic consumerism of today is foreign to the intend of the God of the Bible.

punk
Oct 12th 2007, 07:06 PM
The individuals are made for connections. The individualistic consumerism of today is foreign to the intend of the God of the Bible.

I'm thoroughly on the anti-consumerism boat.

But there are expressions of individuality that rise above buying habits.

ravi4u2
Oct 12th 2007, 08:56 PM
I'm thoroughly on the anti-consumerism boat.

But there are expressions of individuality that rise above buying habits.To this I agree... we are not created like robots, we are all uniquely and fearfully created.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 13th 2007, 04:38 AM
Because God created us all as individuals.

We should be who we are.

Where does the bible say this?

Brother Mark
Oct 14th 2007, 12:38 PM
Religion wants the bricks of Egypt. God desires stones that have not been defiled by the brick making tools but instead are not made with hands and have been weathered by wind, water and fire.

Bricks look alike. Stones are unique. Only with the mortar of the Holy Spirit do stones fit together and make a tabernacle not made with hands.

Too many churches get out the tools of Egypt and try to make bricks out of their members.

On the other hand, many stones reject the fire, water and wind of the holy Spirit and do not embrace the cross that will work death to their flesh and goals.

trublvr
Oct 14th 2007, 03:58 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?


It seems to me there may be an initial misconception that we are capable of pulling it all together. God is pretty big.

We are all individuals and we each are allowed to experience and know God if that is what we desire. The belief we can know all the truth is too overwhelming for most.

We know that through Christ a person can be reconciled to God. Sold Out pointed out that we are responsible for what we know. Presentations may differ but the core truth does not.

I thank God every day that discovering the whole truth may take an eternity and gives me hope and purpose for that daunting amount of time.

punk
Oct 14th 2007, 08:32 PM
Where does the bible say this?

The last time I looked around I noted that we were all different.

SIG
Oct 14th 2007, 11:30 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

Fodder for another thread:

Sometime it appears to me that the unsaved are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 05:05 AM
Because God created us all as individuals.

We should be who we are.


The last time I looked around I noted that we were all different.

You noted it, yes. As far as us all being different, you are wrong.

ikester7579
Oct 15th 2007, 03:45 PM
So many claim now to be non-denominational. I wonder if non-denominational churches are becoming the biggest denomination??;):hmm:

Non-denominational means that you take the better points of the denomination that exist. And incorperate them. And leave out what does not go along with the word. Non-denominational also allows you to change according to the word. And you don't get into doctrine arguements over it. If it's done right. The church pretty much only answers to God. And it is spirit filled as well.

punk
Oct 15th 2007, 05:24 PM
You noted it, yes. As far as us all being different, you are wrong.

You know, it isn't terribly useful to simply tell someone they are "wrong" without presenting an alternate explanation.

Do you care to explain your take on the issue?

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 05:59 PM
You know, it isn't terribly useful to simply tell someone they are "wrong" without presenting an alternate explanation.

Do you care to explain your take on the issue?

Does the arm boast that he is the arm? Does the leg boast that he is the leg? Doesn't the arm know that he is lessened if the leg is lessened? What is the leg without the arm? Are they not all a part of the same body?

There are only two kinds of people in the world, just like in the afterlife. Those who are in him, and those who are aside from him.

All of the "we are different, you are a unique little special flower, you are good enough, smart enough and dawg gone it, God loves me" garbage is irrelevant.

Fine, people are different, but it is completely irrelevant in the context you are stating it.

Let me ask you... how many ways are there to worship God that are acceptable to him?

punk
Oct 15th 2007, 06:03 PM
Does the arm boast that he is the arm? Does the leg boast that he is the leg? Doesn't the arm know that he is lessened if the leg is lessened? What is the leg without the arm? Are they not all a part of the same body?

There are only two kinds of people in the world, just like in the afterlife. Those who are in him, and those who are aside from him.

All of the "we are different, you are a unique little special flower, you are good enough, smart enough and dawg gone it, God loves me" garbage is irrelevant.

Fine, people are different, but it is completely irrelevant in the context you are stating it.

Let me ask you... how many ways are there to worship God that are acceptable to him?

As many as there are people under the Sun.

Catholics have mass, protestants have a variety of services, some people pray some prayers, some others, some people fast some don't.

No two people worship in exactly the same way.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 06:11 PM
As many as there are people under the Sun.

Catholics have mass, protestants have a variety of services, some people pray some prayers, some others, some people fast some don't.

No two people worship in exactly the same way.

Please reread the question.

You answered as if the question was "How many ways do people worship God."

That wasn't the question.

punk
Oct 15th 2007, 06:15 PM
Please reread the question.

You answered as if the question was "How many ways do people worship God."

That wasn't the question.

Well, unless you are saying we should all become Jews, many ways are acceptable.

The only place worship is specified is in the OT and there Jewish rituals are described which all Christian groups fail to perform.

Theophilus
Oct 15th 2007, 06:21 PM
This thread is not doing a lot of edifying, and is beginning to spin into confusion itself.

Get back on the OP.

Get gracious.

Or get goin'!;)

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 06:22 PM
Well, unless you are saying we should all become Jews, many ways are acceptable.

The only place worship is specified is in the OT and there Jewish rituals are described which all Christian groups fail to perform.

Where did you get the idea that many ways are acceptable??? Where in the bible does it say that God thinks that there are many ways he accepts worship??? Emphasis is mine.

Theophilus
Oct 15th 2007, 06:26 PM
Please note my last post.

Cease and desist.


:)

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 06:29 PM
Sometime it appears to me the we Christian are the most fragmented, confused people on the planet, why do you suppose that is?


This thread is not doing a lot of edifying, and is beginning to spin into confusion itself.

Get back on the OP.

Get gracious.

Or get goin'!;)

Should we start another thread?

I'm confused about this Theo? The initial post by mikebr asks the above quoted. Punk and I are discussing why we think this is, that is to say why he thinks we are fragmented.

I am not angry at punk and I don't ge the feeling he is angray at me. i don't believe that we are insulting eachother or others.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 06:32 PM
Can Punk answer my last questions to him or should we start another thread?

Theophilus
Oct 15th 2007, 06:38 PM
Well, I can't read tone, but it appeared to me things were getting a little contentious.

If I'm mistaken, my apologies, but I consider myself a fair judge of message board "tone"...particularly in the absence of emoticons.

Sure, finish it up...if punk cares to answer. If not...move along, people. :D

punk
Oct 15th 2007, 06:41 PM
Where did you get the idea that many ways are acceptable??? Where in the bible does it say that God thinks that there are many ways he accepts worship??? Emphasis is mine.

The only worship that is described in the Bible is the cultic worship at the Temple in Jerusalem.

The Bible says that animals are sacrificed in a certain way, certain incenses are used and so on.

Changes are unacceptable.

Unfortunately the word "worship" in English is used to describe this, and also whatever personal piety a person my exhibit in their own life.

Since the NT does away with the cultic Temple worship in Jerusalem, it effectively does away with all worship in the first sense.

That is, in the present no worship is acceptable to God.

But again, unfortunately, we have included personal piety and church services under "worship" when they are a different thing from the Temple sacrifices.

So I guess the answer to your question in the spirit you asked it is:

No worship is acceptable to God in the present time.


...

Now that is a nice little argument.

1. The only acceptable form of worship to God is the Jewish Temple worship
2. The NT does away with the Jewish Temple worship

=> There is no acceptable form of worship to God today

I have to ponder this and its implications.

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 15th 2007, 07:05 PM
Well, I can't read tone, but it appeared to me things were getting a little contentious.

If I'm mistaken, my apologies, but I consider myself a fair judge of message board "tone"...particularly in the absence of emoticons.

Sure, finish it up...if punk cares to answer. If not...move along, people. :D

Thanks Theo...


The only worship that is described in the Bible is the cultic worship at the Temple in Jerusalem.

The Bible says that animals are sacrificed in a certain way, certain incenses are used and so on.

Changes are unacceptable.

Unfortunately the word "worship" in English is used to describe this, and also whatever personal piety a person my exhibit in their own life.

Since the NT does away with the cultic Temple worship in Jerusalem, it effectively does away with all worship in the first sense.

That is, in the present no worship is acceptable to God.

But again, unfortunately, we have included personal piety and church services under "worship" when they are a different thing from the Temple sacrifices.

So I guess the answer to your question in the spirit you asked it is:

No worship is acceptable to God in the present time.

Very interesting take on this punk. I think you logically have came to the absolute correct conclusion given modern day doctrine and teaching.

That is to say when you say;

"No worship is acceptable to God in the present time."

You are definitely hitting the nail on the head here and is in fact the soul reason Christians are fragmented....

So... knowing that though it is the logical conclusion, given modern day doctrine and theology, do you also believe that that cannot be right even though it logically makes sense... given modern day theology, doctrine, and teaching?

I personally believe that God wants us to worship him, there is only one way to correctly do so, and there has to be a serious flaw in what is being taught. Especially when what is being taught is logically leading Christians by the Billions to either believe that there are several ways to God, or there are no acceptable ways to God.

I think we should start another thread and try to figure it out.

If ya want... I work tonight, but will dedicate my resources to that thread because I think it is a worthy topic.

Theo is correct.... I am going to stop here with this, not because I am mad or feel insulted or anything, but I think this is a ball of twine that is worthy to unravel, and worthy of its own thread.

See ya for now.

mikebr
Oct 15th 2007, 08:41 PM
Does the arm boast that he is the arm? Does the leg boast that he is the leg? Doesn't the arm know that he is lessened if the leg is lessened? What is the leg without the arm? Are they not all a part of the same body?

There are only two kinds of people in the world, just like in the afterlife. Those who are in him, and those who are aside from him.

All of the "we are different, you are a unique little special flower, you are good enough, smart enough and dawg gone it, God loves me" garbage is irrelevant.

Fine, people are different, but it is completely irrelevant in the context you are stating it.

Let me ask you... how many ways are there to worship God that are acceptable to him?


Two: 1.) Spirit
2.) Truth;)

Teke
Oct 15th 2007, 09:37 PM
Two: 1.) Spirit
2.) Truth;)

:thumbsup: Yeah, and that worship goes on in the temple called the body where the mind and heart are. And can be expanded universally (God, cosmos etc.).

punk
Oct 16th 2007, 12:20 AM
Thanks Theo...



Very interesting take on this punk. I think you logically have came to the absolute correct conclusion given modern day doctrine and teaching.

That is to say when you say;

"No worship is acceptable to God in the present time."

You are definitely hitting the nail on the head here and is in fact the soul reason Christians are fragmented....

So... knowing that though it is the logical conclusion, given modern day doctrine and theology, do you also believe that that cannot be right even though it logically makes sense... given modern day theology, doctrine, and teaching?

I personally believe that God wants us to worship him, there is only one way to correctly do so, and there has to be a serious flaw in what is being taught. Especially when what is being taught is logically leading Christians by the Billions to either believe that there are several ways to God, or there are no acceptable ways to God.

I think we should start another thread and try to figure it out.

If ya want... I work tonight, but will dedicate my resources to that thread because I think it is a worthy topic.

Theo is correct.... I am going to stop here with this, not because I am mad or feel insulted or anything, but I think this is a ball of twine that is worthy to unravel, and worthy of its own thread.

See ya for now.

I'm up for what looks like an intriguing topic.

brakelite
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:39 AM
Non-denominational means that you take the better points of the denomination that exist. And incorperate them. And leave out what does not go along with the word. Non-denominational also allows you to change according to the word. And you don't get into doctrine arguements over it. If it's done right. The church pretty much only answers to God. And it is spirit filled as well.

The problem I see with that is that the non dems. dont agree either which only adds to the confusion. :confused
I agree with you that the church answers to God only. And so must we.
I have joined myself to a number of denominations over the years and was never satisfied that they were following the Word. I had many questions which they could or would not answer and it was only after 20 years that I finally found an organised denomination that I was satisfied was following the scriptures; not only so, but the denm. was also secure enough in it's own identity to be willing to adjust practice as God revealed His will through His word.
I will not divulge said denm. for fear of being accused of proselytising ;) but I am responding to your post to assure you that there is at least one denm. in this world that has not bowed their knees to baal. :hmm:

PS Not that my denom. is perfect. None is. Yet. And if we ever did find the perfect denom. as soon as we joined it it would cease to be perfect.:D
But I firmly beleive that he time is soon coming when God will have His church ready and perfected to meet Him when He comes.

[Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


God bless B.