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cwb
Oct 10th 2007, 03:35 PM
I have heard from many post-tribbers and pre-tribbers alike that when Israel became a state in 1948, it was prophecy fulfilled. I personally have not seen any such prophecy in the scriptures. I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. I might change my view on this particular issue if I can see the exact prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. I have just one request though. That is that this thread does not turn into another debate on the timing of the rapture. There are always plenty of other threads for that.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 03:39 PM
Daniel 11:14 shows that Israel had to be a people again.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 03:39 PM
Rev. 7 shows that Israel will again be scattered.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 03:41 PM
Genesis 49 seems to step through the stages of the Israeli people.

jeffreys
Oct 10th 2007, 03:54 PM
I have heard from many post-tribbers and pre-tribbers alike that when Israel became a state in 1948, it was prophecy fulfilled. I personally have not seen any such prophecy in the scriptures. I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. I might change my view on this particular issue if I can see the exact prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. I have just one request though. That is that this thread does not turn into another debate on the timing of the rapture. There are always plenty of other threads for that.

This is a great question! And I'm not going to try to answer it! ;)

A friend of mine, and I, were discussing/debating this some time ago. She is "pretty much every Hal Lindsay & Chuck Missler say" in her end-times view. Needless to say, she's all over this 1948 date.

But my question is this: Is the beginning of the current nation of Israel, in 1948, a God-move, or simply something that was forced by international politics? And I ask this because the physical nation of Israel continues to reject Jesus as Messiah.

I guess time will tell, but I have honest and serious doubts as to whether the current nation of Israel has anything whatever to do with end-times prophecy.

Just a thought...

sulfurdolphin
Oct 10th 2007, 04:02 PM
Isaiah 66:7-8-9 Before she was in labor, she gave birth Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She have birth to her children.
Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery? says the Lord.
Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb? says your God.

Israel in fact was born in one day during May 14, 1948.

Isaiah 49:14-18 But Zion said, The Lord has forsaken me, and my Lord has forgotten me.

Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb?
Surely they may forget Yet I will not forget you.

See I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
Your walls are continually before Me.
Your sons shall make haste;
Your destroyers and those who laid you waste Shall go away from you.

Lift up your eyes look around and see All these gather together and come to you.

As I live, says the Lord You shall surely clother yourselves with them all as an ornament and bind them on you as a bride does.

Isaiah 61:4 and many other references talk about rebuilding the ruins of Israel and etc..

Hope this helps you out alittle.

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 05:20 PM
Deuteronomy 32 - the song of Moses

Deuteronomy 32:20-21
"And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end {shall be}...I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."

verse 26
"I said, I would scatter them into corners..."
Rev. 7
four corners

verse 28
"For they are a nation..."

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 05:22 PM
Jeremiah chapter 30

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 05:24 PM
Micah chapter 5

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 05:27 PM
This is a great question! And I'm not going to try to answer it! ;)

A friend of mine, and I, were discussing/debating this some time ago. She is "pretty much every Hal Lindsay & Chuck Missler say" in her end-times view. Needless to say, she's all over this 1948 date.

But my question is this: Is the beginning of the current nation of Israel, in 1948, a God-move, or simply something that was forced by international politics? And I ask this because the physical nation of Israel continues to reject Jesus as Messiah.

I guess time will tell, but I have honest and serious doubts as to whether the current nation of Israel has anything whatever to do with end-times prophecy.

Just a thought...


What if we look at Daniel 11 this way?

Daniel 11:13
after certain years

king of the north
with a great army and much riches

=Saddam Hussein
1979

At the same time was to be happening...

verse 14
many stand up against the king of the south
=Anwar Sadat was assassinated
1981

the robbers of Israel were to exalt themselves

=the Palestinians declared indpendence
November 15. 1988

but they shall fall

Daniel's vision of three full weeks of sorrow - Daniel 10:1-2

vinsight4u8
Oct 10th 2007, 05:29 PM
Israel is to be in blindness till the last Gentile is saved.

matthew94
Oct 10th 2007, 06:19 PM
The problem with most/all of these references are numerous

1) Many of these references are prophecies given BEFORE the original return from exile and were, at least primarily, in regards to THAT re-gathering, not a subsequent re-gathering.

2) When the NT writers QUOTE some of the passages that speak of a re-gathering of Israel, they quote it as something fulfilled in the 1st century church.

3) The OT prophecies that speak of this re-gathering envision it as being accompanied by spiritual renewal, but 1948 was accompanied by no such thing.

third hero
Oct 10th 2007, 06:34 PM
I have heard from many post-tribbers and pre-tribbers alike that when Israel became a state in 1948, it was prophecy fulfilled. I personally have not seen any such prophecy in the scriptures. I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. I might change my view on this particular issue if I can see the exact prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. I have just one request though. That is that this thread does not turn into another debate on the timing of the rapture. There are always plenty of other threads for that.

Here is the prophecy thqat was fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37

This chapter is divided into two parts.

1, The valley of dry bones
2. the two sticks.

God shows Ezekiel a valley full of dead men's bones. God told him to proclaim to the bones to come back to life, and upon Ezekiel's proclamation, the bones came back to life, as God transformed them from a valley of bones into a valley of men. Now look at verses 11-12.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Now, this is the proclamation from God that Israel will be brought back from the dead, and the people will be brought back to their own country. Some would love to say that this happened when Cyrus gave them the decree to go back to Israel and rebuild, but that was already prophecied before by Jeremiah and Daniel. So, that's simply not the case. There is more to this story, and it wil clear everything up.

Now after the proclamation of ISrael being brought back to her land, God tells Ezekiel to hold out two sticks. He tells him to write on the one stick, Israel, and the other stick, Judah. Then, as he held out the two sticks, they became one. Here's what God had to say to Ezekiel about that.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: -verses 21-22.

Now, here's the rest of the story. The prophecy of the valley of dry bones, and the prophecy of the two sticks are one in the same. For they both state that God is going to bring Israel back to her own land, and that there will no longer be any distinction between Judah and Israel.

This did not happen after the 70 years of desolation under Nebachadnezzar was completed. For when Israel went back to her own land, it was divided once more, with Samaria (israel) in the north, and Judah to the south. After the Roman Diaspora, the nation of Israel ceased to exist. For all tense and purposes, Israel was no more. Since 70AD until 1948, the Gentiles ruled over the lands of Israel and Judah, with wars resulting in the shifting of control over Jerusalem in many instances throughout history. The Jews had no rights to their own land, and few, if any, chose to continue to live there. Even by today's language, the tribes of Israel were considered lost, aka dead.

However, the "lost" tribes of Israel have been "revived", and they are living in their own land, the land of Israel. There is no distinction between Israel and Judah today, for it is truly, one stick. It is Israel. The two sticks have indeed merged, and it will never be split up again, as this prophecy proclaims it.

Now, the prophecy is a two-parter, for it mentions one king over them, and then goes on to say that "David, my servant" will rule them forever. We, premils, knows that thyis is the prophecy concerning the Lord ruling the world from Jerusalem, as Zechariah 14 also proclaims, but that is a little off subject.

But if anyone wants to know what prophecy was fulfilled in 1948, then look no further, because this is it.

jeffreys
Oct 10th 2007, 06:51 PM
What if we look at Daniel 11 this way?

Daniel 11:13
after certain years

king of the north
with a great army and much riches

=Saddam Hussein
1979

At the same time was to be happening...

verse 14
many stand up against the king of the south
=Anwar Sadat was assassinated
1981

the robbers of Israel were to exalt themselves

=the Palestinians declared indpendence
November 15. 1988

but they shall fall

Daniel's vision of three full weeks of sorrow - Daniel 10:1-2

It's very interesting, though, that Hal Lindsay et al, were absolutely sure that the "king of the north" was the USSR.


I am the first to admit, and say, that Old Testament prophecies are not only confusing, but have fulfillment on several levels. In light of that, I think we all MUST look to see what fulfillments of any & all OT Prophecies could have taken place BEFORE Jesus was even born.

For instance, the Valley of Bones - mentioned in Ezekiel - certainly found its fulfillment when the Jews returned after their captivity in Babylon. I'm not thinking that that was/is the ONLY fulfillment of that prophecy, but it certainly was one.

I wonder how many of the prophecies of Daniel could fall into that same category.

jeffreys
Oct 10th 2007, 06:51 PM
The problem with most/all of these references are numerous

1) Many of these references are prophecies given BEFORE the original return from exile and were, at least primarily, in regards to THAT re-gathering, not a subsequent re-gathering.

2) When the NT writers QUOTE some of the passages that speak of a re-gathering of Israel, they quote it as something fulfilled in the 1st century church.

3) The OT prophecies that speak of this re-gathering envision it as being accompanied by spiritual renewal, but 1948 was accompanied by no such thing.

These are very good points. Thank you!

David Taylor
Oct 10th 2007, 08:55 PM
Israel is to be in blindness till the last Gentile is saved.

The Apostle Peter disagrees.....

Peter said, "Therefore let ALL the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36

quiet dove
Oct 10th 2007, 09:02 PM
I was going to say in Ezekiel, the dry bones too. It has been a while since I really dug into that and as my understanding deepens or changes I am not being dogmatic about it.
Like I said before, I think it could be considered a miracle that there is an Israel at all, scripture or no scripture specifically about 1948.

I dont necessarily believe that 1948 started any time clocks but that it is just amazing that it happened at all.

itsokimadocter
Oct 10th 2007, 09:22 PM
i asked my father-in-law the same question that the OP is asking and he directed me to MATT 24:32

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."

How does this verse apply to 1948?

John146
Oct 10th 2007, 09:39 PM
i asked my father-in-law the same question that the OP is asking and he directed me to MATT 24:32

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."

How does this verse apply to 1948?

I don't believe it does. He must be thinking that Jesus is saying that when the fig tree, representing Israel, becomes a nation again then you know summer, representing His second coming, is near. But here is what it says in Luke 21 that is parallel to Matthew 24:32.

29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. - Luke 21:29-30

So, it is not the parable of just the fig tree, it is the parable of all the trees, which includes the Gentile nations. So, if that verse, Matthew 24:32, has something to do with 1948, then Luke 21:29-30 would have to be related to 1948 as well, but I don't see any relation there.

David Taylor
Oct 10th 2007, 09:56 PM
Depending on how one symbolically wants to apply 'the fig tree' also must take into consideration this passage about the fig tree.

Mark 11:13 "And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. And when even was come, he went out of the city. And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away."


Luke 13:6 "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

Matthew 21:19 "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! "


What did Jesus mean about the fig tree?

ShirleyFord
Oct 10th 2007, 10:51 PM
The Apostle Peter disagrees.....

Peter said, "Therefore let ALL the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. " Acts 2:36



And the blindness was removed that day from 3000 of those Jews of the house of Israel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


A few days later blindess was removed from 5000 more Jews from the household of Israel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.

Acts 4

1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,

2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.

4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.


Peter continued preaching in jail the gospel to Israel's religious leaders in Jerusalem:

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,


But they rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter preached to them and remained in their blindess.


16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

17 But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.

18 And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.



And we find a multitude of Jews of the household of Israel who believed the gospel of Jesus Christ that Peter preached and their blindness was removed when that believed the gospel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.


Acts 5

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

When the gospel of Jesus Christ is fully preached as it was in the book of Acts, religious leaders who reject the gospel don't like it. And they will persecute us and throw us into jail. Peter and John are again arrested and thrown into jail by the religious Jewish rulers. But by now, Peter was getting use to preaching the gospel in jail if that is what it took to get the gospel to his people the Jews.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



And then there was Saul before his name was changed to Paul, a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, and one of the religious leaders, a Pharisee. When God saved him, his physical and spiritual blindness disappeared so that he could see both spiritually and physically.



Acts 9

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.




Shirley

ShirleyFord
Oct 10th 2007, 11:22 PM
i asked my father-in-law the same question that the OP is asking and he directed me to MATT 24:32

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near."

How does this verse apply to 1948?

Hi Doc,

I don't agree with your father-in-law.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

I don't believe that Jesus was prophecying a mystery in figurative language here of the future restoration of the Jews back to her land of Israel. At the time that Jesus spoke this, the Jews were back in their land of Israel after the Babylonian Captivity.

I believe that Jesus expected it to be understood in the clear literal language in which he spoke it. He is just explaining how His Jewish audience knew when summer was right around the corner. And no different than what he spoke to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matt. 16:

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?


Shirley

cwb
Oct 10th 2007, 11:29 PM
Here is the prophecy thqat was fulfilled.

Ezekiel 37

This chapter is divided into two parts.

1, The valley of dry bones
2. the two sticks.

God shows Ezekiel a valley full of dead men's bones. God told him to proclaim to the bones to come back to life, and upon Ezekiel's proclamation, the bones came back to life, as God transformed them from a valley of bones into a valley of men. Now look at verses 11-12.

Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.



??????? So you are saying that a ressurection occured in 1948?



And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: -verses 21-22.


When I read this verse, it seems to me it is that after this occurs they will never be scattered again. It seems to me it is saying here that when this occurs, they will have only one king ruling over them (and I believe it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ). Are you saying that Israel remains a nation during the great tribulation, even during the 42 month reign of the man of sin?

cwb
Oct 10th 2007, 11:34 PM
And the blindness was removed that day from 3000 of those Jews of the house of Israel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.



Romans 11:25 says
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The apostle Paul wrote this after the record you quoted from Acts.

ShirleyFord
Oct 11th 2007, 02:39 AM
Romans 11:25 says
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The apostle Paul wrote this after the record you quoted from Acts.

Notice CWB that Paul says that only part of Israel were blinded.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And as we find all through the book of Acts, part of those who heard the gospel preached it were unblinded the very moment they believed it and repented and God saved them. Which goes along with what Paul says in v. 7.



7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


Paul goes on to explains what caused the blindness in those who were broken off.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And he goes on to explain how they can get rid of their blindess and be grafted back in again.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Paul here in Romans 11 doesn't contradict Luke's record throughout Acts.


Shirley

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyFord http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1407000#post1407000)
And the blindness was removed that day from 3000 of those Jews of the house of Israel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.




Originally Posted by cwb
Romans 11:25 says
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The apostle Paul wrote this after the record you quoted from Acts.



Originally Posted by ShirleyFord
Notice CWB that Paul says that only part of Israel were blinded.


It doesn't say that only part of Israel were blinded. It says "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

My post was in response to you saying that blindness was already removed from Israel back in the book of Acts. So are you saying also that the fulness of the gentiles already came in back in Acts 2. It says Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. After that Israel's blindness is lifted.









http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

ShirleyFord
Oct 11th 2007, 03:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyFord http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1407000#post1407000)
And the blindness was removed that day from 3000 of those Jews of the house of Israel before the gospel went out to the Gentiles.






It doesn't say that only part of Israel were blinded. It says "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

My post was in response to you saying that blindness was already removed from Israel back in the book of Acts. So are you saying also that the fulness of the gentiles already came in back in Acts 2. It says Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. After that Israel's blindness is lifted.

So what is your explanation of all of the multitudes of Jews who were saved throughout the New Testament era including those Jews before the gospel ever went out to the Gentiles.

Do you believe that they were still blinded after God saved them? And will stay blinded until after all of the Gentiles who will be saved are saved?




Shirley

My heart's Desire
Oct 11th 2007, 03:52 AM
I have heard from many post-tribbers and pre-tribbers alike that when Israel became a state in 1948, it was prophecy fulfilled. I personally have not seen any such prophecy in the scriptures. I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. I might change my view on this particular issue if I can see the exact prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. I have just one request though. That is that this thread does not turn into another debate on the timing of the rapture. There are always plenty of other threads for that.
I'm not sure of a scripture that says Israel becoming a state was prophecied as such.
I have heard that for many of the prophecies involving Israel to occur they have to be back on their own land and that is what happened in 1948.
God was always telling them about what happens when they return to their land. The forecasting of their scattering to other nations and the promises of God that they would return to the Land are numerous through the OT

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 04:54 AM
So what is your explanation of all of the multitudes of Jews who were saved throughout the New Testament era including those Jews before the gospel ever went out to the Gentiles.

Do you believe that they were still blinded after God saved them? And will stay blinded until after all of the Gentiles who will be saved are saved?




Shirley
In this age, when a Jew accepts Christ, he becomes a member of the Church where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. I am just curious about your point of view. You are saying Israel's blindness was lifted in Acts 2. Are you saying that is when the fullness of the Gentiles came in?

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 04:59 AM
I'm not sure of a scripture that says Israel becoming a state was prophecied as such.
I have heard that for many of the prophecies involving Israel to occur they have to be back on their own land and that is what happened in 1948.
God was always telling them about what happens when they return to their land. The forecasting of their scattering to other nations and the promises of God that they would return to the Land are numerous through the OT

Do you have any of those specific scriptures? I know that Ezekiel talks about Israel being gathered to their own land from being gather abroad but when I read that record, it sure sounds to me like something that is going to happen at the return of Christ.

jeffweeder
Oct 11th 2007, 06:11 AM
Didnt the headlines read--- nation born in a day, in 1948. May have been the Jerusalem post.

Is 66
8 "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 06:28 AM
Didnt the headlines read--- nation born in a day, in 1948. May have been the Jerusalem post.

Is 66
8 "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.

When I read the whole context of this verse in Isaiah 66:8, especailly in verses 15,16 and 22, it seems to me that He is speaking of the Lord's return and not 1948.

jeffweeder
Oct 11th 2007, 07:11 AM
Yes ,, i know what ya mean.- Still might be hope.
Whatever the fig tree is, that generation will not pass until all has happened.
So if it is Israel, the latter end part of that Generation would see the coming of Christ.

Jesus puts more focus on Jerusalem, when the times of the gentiles is over for her, as to when that last gen starts.
1948 OR 1967 MAYBE, we have never been this close.

ShirleyFord
Oct 11th 2007, 12:12 PM
In this age, when a Jew accepts Christ, he becomes a member of the Church where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. I am just curious about your point of view. You are saying Israel's blindness was lifted in Acts 2. Are you saying that is when the fullness of the Gentiles came in?

But Paul doesn't say that after the fulness of the Gentiles come in in this age then will be the age when Israel's blindness will be removed. Paul doesn't speak of different ages in Romans 11:25.

When you read the entire Chapter of Romans 11, you find that he is speaking about 2 different classes of Jews: (1) those not broken off of the olive tree, "the elect" who stayed in faith and were not blinded and (2) "the rest" of Israel who were in unbelief and were blinded resulting in their being broken off the olive tree.

And Paul gives the same provision to "the rest" of those Jews alive at the time of his letter to the Church at Rome who were in unbelief therefore blinded that he gives the Gentiles living at that time in unbelief therefore also blinded:

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And we find that being fulfilled all through the book of Acts including Paul.


Paul doesn't say anything about the Jews who were blinded having to wait until this age was over before they could believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. It is the modern-day dispensationalist scholars who say that.

So who are we going to believe:

The inspired of the Holy Spirit of God writings of Paul?

or

The uninspirted writings of modern-day scholars?


Shirley

Steve M
Oct 11th 2007, 12:35 PM
The problem with most/all of these references are numerous

1) Many of these references are prophecies given BEFORE the original return from exile and were, at least primarily, in regards to THAT re-gathering, not a subsequent re-gathering.

2) When the NT writers QUOTE some of the passages that speak of a re-gathering of Israel, they quote it as something fulfilled in the 1st century church.

3) The OT prophecies that speak of this re-gathering envision it as being accompanied by spiritual renewal, but 1948 was accompanied by no such thing.
Hey, matthew94; long time, no see.

One passage that puzzles me is the Joel passage. Particularly because Peter, through inspiration, reveals that Chap 2 was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.

Chap 3 goes on to detail the return of the Jewish people... seemingly chronologically after that. Then it mentions a sequence of events that until recently made no sense to me. It mentioned Israel being attacked by Lebanon and the cities of Philistia... that's the Gaza strip. And then it said Israel would strike back.

I find no record of such a war in ancient history; I see it still happening right now.

Strange, eh?

Esp. since Joel 3 ends with the Lord roaring from Zion, a promise that never again will a stranger or alien walk in Jerusalem (which definitely is not how the first regathering ended, unless this is an oblique reference to all men being considered possible brothers and not aliens...) Now, we either have to somehow make the regathering in Joel 3 the first one and shoehorn in the battles spoken of in Gaza and Syria/Lebanon... or we have to take the entire thing completely out of any order.

It's an interesting and thought-provoking passage.

Steve M
Oct 11th 2007, 12:39 PM
To the original post...


Lu 21:24 - Show Context
And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

That right there is the prophecy I point to. The Lord said that Jerusalem would be trampled--controled, violated, whatever--by the Gentiles... until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Do Gentiles control Jerusalem today?

Up until 1948 we could have said, yes. They do.

Today? I can't really say that.

Does this have to do with the salvation of any individual Jews? NO. I personally know men and women who are physically Jewish who have been grafted back in due to their belief.

It does speak to the land promise. And the Age of the Gentiles... whatever that may be.

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 04:51 PM
But Paul doesn't say that after the fulness of the Gentiles come in in this age then will be the age when Israel's blindness will be removed. Paul doesn't speak of different ages in Romans 11:25.

When you read the entire Chapter of Romans 11, you find that he is speaking about 2 different classes of Jews: (1) those not broken off of the olive tree, "the elect" who stayed in faith and were not blinded and (2) "the rest" of Israel who were in unbelief and were blinded resulting in their being broken off the olive tree.

And Paul gives the same provision to "the rest" of those Jews alive at the time of his letter to the Church at Rome who were in unbelief therefore blinded that he gives the Gentiles living at that time in unbelief therefore also blinded:

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And we find that being fulfilled all through the book of Acts including Paul.


Paul doesn't say anything about the Jews who were blinded having to wait until this age was over before they could believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. It is the modern-day dispensationalist scholars who say that.

So who are we going to believe:

The inspired of the Holy Spirit of God writings of Paul?

or

The uninspirted writings of modern-day scholars?


Shirley

I will post the verse from Romans 11:25 again
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Again it says Israel's blindness will not be lifted until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. You said in your other post that Israel's blindness was lifted in Acts 2. It still seems that you are saying that the fulness of the Gentiles already came in way back in Acts 2. I do not see how that fits.




Paul doesn't say anything about the Jews who were blinded having to wait until this age was over before they could believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. It is the modern-day dispensationalist scholars who say that.



I never said Jews have to wait to get saved but then again I am not a scholar.



So who are we going to believe:

The inspired of the Holy Spirit of God writings of Paul?

or

The uninspirted writings of modern-day scholars?




I like you am looking at the scriptures to see what they say and not what some scholar might say.

cwb
Oct 11th 2007, 05:10 PM
The problem with most/all of these references are numerous

1) Many of these references are prophecies given BEFORE the original return from exile and were, at least primarily, in regards to THAT re-gathering, not a subsequent re-gathering.

2) When the NT writers QUOTE some of the passages that speak of a re-gathering of Israel, they quote it as something fulfilled in the 1st century church.

3) The OT prophecies that speak of this re-gathering envision it as being accompanied by spiritual renewal, but 1948 was accompanied by no such thing.

Can you show some of the passages from number 2 that you are speaking about?

Concerning your point #3, I have started looking at those passages about the re-gathering of Israel and would have to agree with you that so far the ones I have looked at, 1948 does not seem to fit. That however is not to say that those prophecies will never come to pass.

sulfurdolphin
Oct 11th 2007, 05:37 PM
Yes ,, i know what ya mean.- Still might be hope.
Whatever the fig tree is, that generation will not pass until all has happened.
So if it is Israel, the latter end part of that Generation would see the coming of Christ.

Jesus puts more focus on Jerusalem, when the times of the gentiles is over for her, as to when that last gen starts.
1948 OR 1967 MAYBE, we have never been this close.


I agree with you that Isaiah 66:7-9 is about the Nation of Israel that we now have and then in 1948 our parents saw became a nation.

The fig tree is Israel Hosea 9:10 I found Israel Like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers As the firstfruits on the fig tree in its first season.

After describing His return, in Matthew 24:32-34, Jesus says this: “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all theses things have happened.” this says that the generation of people who witness the fig tree bearing leaves (Israel becoming a nation) will not pass away until the Son of Man returns.

My heart's Desire
Oct 11th 2007, 05:46 PM
This is not scripture but me thinking out loud. If there was to be no prophecy fulfilled about Israel being back in the land, then what would the chances of them being a nation as they are today, have been? I think that the fact that there is still a nation on their land and called Israel speaks volumes. What happened in 1948 as I recall was almost called a miracle in the way that it happened.

My heart's Desire
Oct 11th 2007, 05:49 PM
Do you have any of those specific scriptures? I know that Ezekiel talks about Israel being gathered to their own land from being gather abroad but when I read that record, it sure sounds to me like something that is going to happen at the return of Christ.

I know of some but I'm doing dozens of stuff and have to go to work, but I will get back with some for your consideration.

But regardless, you are correct in that I can see several that looks like something that happens on the Lord's return. :)

third hero
Oct 11th 2007, 08:40 PM
??????? So you are saying that a ressurection occured in 1948?

Yes, a resurrection did indeed occur, but not a bodily resurrection. A nation which was dead became alive again. Just like we believe that the ancirent Roman empire will see a resurrection, so is the resurrection of the nation of Israel.





When I read this verse, it seems to me it is that after this occurs they will never be scattered again. It seems to me it is saying here that when this occurs, they will have only one king ruling over them (and I believe it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ). Are you saying that Israel remains a nation during the great tribulation, even during the 42 month reign of the man of sin?

Yes. I am indeed saying that Israel will remain a nation, although the people of the capital Jerusalem wil be in hiding. When the Lord returns, they come out of their hiding place, and Israel will be ruled by the Lord forever. I see this prophecy as a two-parter. One portion was fulfilled in 1948, where the nation of Israel will not be divided, as it was before. The Nation of Israel indeed was resurrcted, and not in the same way it was after the fal of Babylon. The two sections of that nation is indeed now one, just as the Lord proclaimed it to Ezekiel.

When the Abomination that Causes Desolation appears, the beast will attempt to destroy Israel altogether. He will fail, for the remnant will be protected by God when the Mount of Olives is split in half. Israel will still be a nation, and not even the Antichrist himself will be able to completely destroy Israel.

My heart's Desire
Oct 12th 2007, 04:22 AM
Didnt the headlines read--- nation born in a day, in 1948. May have been the Jerusalem post.

Is 66
8 "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
I think you are right. I think this is the verse most use about 1948.

My heart's Desire
Oct 12th 2007, 04:55 AM
Do you have any of those specific scriptures? I know that Ezekiel talks about Israel being gathered to their own land from being gather abroad but when I read that record, it sure sounds to me like something that is going to happen at the return of Christ.

This could be one :
Deut. 30:1-5. Really you could read Deut 29 that leads up to the verses in 30.

Deut. 30:1 So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you , the blessing and the curse which I have set before you and you call tthem to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you,
2: and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,
3: then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.
4:If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
5:The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

I believe this has described the promise of God to them and as we know they had a history of obeying, rebelling, the land taken from them, repentance, and then restoration. I'd almost say it was in cycles.

What I wonder about is this though. Israel is back in their land and God said that they would be if they return to the Lord and obey Him with all their heart and soul.
Most will say that they are there in unbelief and if that is so then was it the mercy of God that enabled it, because unbelief is not exactly returning to God and obeying all the commands with heart and soul? And yet that was the condition God gave for returning the land to them. But they are there.

Also, in Genesis 15:18-21 has the boundaries of the Land that God promised to Abraham. I'm terrible with Geography so I don't know if this describes the boundries of the land that Israel currently possesses or not. Maybe someone smarter than myself may know.

Anyway, as I said before Israel is back as a Nation on at least some of the promised land so it has to be some fulfillment of prophecy. But if it is, I don't think it is complete yet as the people are still being regathered to this day, and if all the other verses we've found describe the future kingdom where David/Jesus reigns over them as being in the Last days then surely we are very close.

I also think that it would bring us to the verses in Ezekiel which quiet Dove brought up. They are in the land but the breath of God is not in them (that's in Ez. 37) but if you read in Ez. 36:5-6 it says, vr.5:
therefore thus says the Lord God, " Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey."
6:
Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.' (Is that not what is happening today? Are the nations NOT trying to appropriate the land for themselves?)

7: Therefore thus says the Lord God, "I have sworn that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults.

8. " But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people of Israel; for they will soon come.
I won't type all the verses but read after that the rest of chapter 36.

markedward
Oct 12th 2007, 05:58 AM
Daniel 11:14 shows that Israel had to be a people again.This happened when the captive Jews in Babylon returned to Israel and rebuilt Jerusalem and their temple.


Rev. 7 shows that Israel will again be scattered.This happened in 70 AD, several hundred years after the Jews returned to Israel.

ShirleyFord
Oct 12th 2007, 10:34 AM
I will post the verse from Romans 11:25 again
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Again it says Israel's blindness will not be lifted until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

Notice that Romans 11:25 doesn't say, "after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then Israel's blindness will be lifted". Where do you see the word "lifted" in this verse?


You said in your other post that Israel's blindness was lifted in Acts 2. It still seems that you are saying that the fulness of the Gentiles already came in way back in Acts 2. I do not see how that fits.

That is not an accurate statement. Blindness was removed from every Jew that came to faith in Jesus Christ and were born again by His Spirit long before the Jews who were in Christ took the gospel to the Gentiles, exactly as Paul said in Romans 11. And that is exactly what I said in that post.

If you are so confident in your view that the blindness of the Jews will not be removed until after the Church is removed at the pre-trib rapture, then present Scriptures to prove that. Don't stoop to saying untrue things about what I write to prove your view. How do those kinds of tactics strengthen what you are trying to present?


Shirley

vinsight4u8
Oct 12th 2007, 03:00 PM
This happened when the captive Jews in Babylon returned to Israel and rebuilt Jerusalem and their temple.

This happened in 70 AD, several hundred years after the Jews returned to Israel.


Daniel 11:14 is where Daniel's 10:1-2 time of mourning vision begins.

cwb
Oct 12th 2007, 04:09 PM
Notice that Romans 11:25 doesn't say, "after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then Israel's blindness will be lifted". Where do you see the word "lifted" in this verse?
Shirley

Here is Romans 11:25 again.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

When is Israel's blindness there until? It says right there until the fulness of the Gentiles come in. That is what the apostle Paul said, not me.



That is not an accurate statement. Blindness was removed from every Jew that came to faith in Jesus Christ and were born again by His Spirit long before the Jews who were in Christ took the gospel to the Gentiles, exactly as Paul said in Romans 11. And that is exactly what I said in that post.



You said in post 21 that Israel's blindness was removed in Acts 2. The apostle Paul says that blindness is happened to Israel until the fulness of the gentiles come in. So now I have to choose whom I am going to believe. The inspired writings of the apostle Paul or Shirley Ford. I choose the believe the inspired writngs of the apostle Paul.


If you are so confident in your view that the blindness of the Jews will not be removed until after the Church is removed at the pre-trib rapture, then present Scriptures to prove that. Don't stoop to saying untrue things about what I write to prove your view. How do those kinds of tactics strengthen what you are trying to present?



I never said anything in this thread about a pre-trib rapture. In fact in my OP I requested that this thread not be turned into a debate on the timing of the rapture. I already presented scriptures to prove that the nation of Israel is blind until the fulness of the gentiles come in. You say that already happened in Act 2 and now you deny that you said that.

Here is something you wrote to me in a previous post:


Paul doesn't say anything about the Jews who were blinded having to wait until this age was over before they could believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. It is the modern-day dispensationalist scholars who say that.



Now who is "stooping" to saying untrue things about what somebody said. I never even came close to suggesting that individual Jews had to wait until this age is over to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to get saved. As the apostle Paul said, Israel as a nation is blinded until the fulness of the gentiles come in, not individual Jews who accept the lord Jesus Christ. I am going to believe what the apostle Paul said and he said Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentile come in.

matthew94
Oct 12th 2007, 04:30 PM
The 'until' does not necessitate something coming chronologically after. It CAN be used in that way, but it doesn't always.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part
It's a partial hardening. Some Israelites were believers (like Paul himself!). Other Israelites had hardened themselves to the Gospel.

until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
This reality that some Israelites will believe and others will continue in unbelief will continue throughout the time that gentiles are coming to Christ.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The result of this (the fact that 'part' of Israel and a certain number of gentiles would come to Christ) is that all 'Israel' will be saved. By this Paul means true/spiritual Israel.

If it were a matter of chronology, the verse would read
"And THEN all Israel shall be saved"
But it's not. It's a matter of salvation
"And SO all Israel shall be saved"

He's talking about the fact that believing Jews and believing gentiles collectively make up the people of God and will all be saved.

John146
Oct 12th 2007, 05:22 PM
The 'until' does not necessitate something coming chronologically after. It CAN be used in that way, but it doesn't always.

Israel has experienced a hardening in part
It's a partial hardening. Some Israelites were believers (like Paul himself!). Other Israelites had hardened themselves to the Gospel.

until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
This reality that some Israelites will believe and others will continue in unbelief will continue throughout the time that gentiles are coming to Christ.

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The result of this (the fact that 'part' of Israel and a certain number of gentiles would come to Christ) is that all 'Israel' will be saved. By this Paul means true/spiritual Israel.

If it were a matter of chronology, the verse would read
"And THEN all Israel shall be saved"
But it's not. It's a matter of salvation
"And SO all Israel shall be saved"

He's talking about the fact that believing Jews and believing gentiles collectively make up the people of God and will all be saved.

I agree. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then ever last Gentile that is to be saved will be saved. Once that occurs then Christ will return. The fullness of Israel and the fullness of the Gentiles will occur at the same time. Does it make sense that Gentiles could no longer be saved after that and only Israelites can be saved? Not at all, yet that's what many believe is going to happen.

Is it even reasonable to think that everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved at some point? I don't believe so. Yet people believe that will happen. Will repentance and faith no longer be required in Israel or something? How could every single one of them repent and put their faith in Christ? It's not reasonable to think that would happen. Paul himself said he merely hoped to help save some of them (Rom 11:14). Why would he go from saying that to saying they would all be saved? No, like you said, when he said all Israel would be saved, he was speaking of the Israel of God, which he had spoken about in Romans 9:6-8.

Allegra
Oct 12th 2007, 05:24 PM
According to Hagee, a dispensationalist, I do not agree with him using Ezekiel 37-38 as unfulfilled prophecy. What's missing from his historical account is the 400 silent years between the Old & New Testaments.
Ezekiel, Zechariah, Nehemiah, Ezra were prophesying on Israel's post-exilic obedience to the Lord. After the Babylonian captivity, the return of the exiles to Palestine, their obedience can be seen in Nehemiah, Haggai, & Ezra. In Jerusalem, the temple had been restored, although a much smaller building that Solomon had built. Within the temple the line of priests was still worshiping & carrying on the sacred rites as they had been ordered to do by the law of Moses. The people were united at this time. This could have been their time of repentance & spiritual awakening as described in Ezekiel.
Also in Ezekiel, Hagee sites the Gog & Magog war as future. Here again, in the 400 silent years, Daniel 11 gives an amazing account of these years of conflict between the king of the north(Syria) & the king of the south (Egypt) & the prophecy was long since fulfilled.
Israel was still a "puppet" nation, annexed by Egypt, & caught in the nutcracker crunch of the north & south kingdoms. I think we can find in Maccabees fulfillment of Gog & Magog. Although we know Gog & Magog will take on a different meaning as written by St. John in revelation 20. This will be the mother war. Gog & Magog is simply God's enemies in the New Testament. It may involve Islam of course, & btw, this was also a belief of Martin Luther regarding Gog & Magog.
Ok. So Israel never regained their sovereignty since AD70. So, the only prophecy I can agree with in regards to Israel being a Nation again goes back to Luke, where Jesus' said, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled."
This can be looked at as prophecy for current Israel, as they aren't under any gentile control now.
That's the only prophecy that really makes sense to me. And in Romans, Paul is referring to the Remnant. There is a quote & footnote in Romans 11 to Isaiah 59:20-21
20 "The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,"
declares the LORD.
21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.
This is spiritual. It can only be those who accept Jesus- the remnant for Israel. Those that repent of their sins.
Someone mention Isaiah 66- but this looks spiritual also- what Zion brings forth- the birth & progress of the Church.


So, I only see one prophecy for Israel in Luke. And it doesn't have a time frame exactly- but it's when the regain their sovereignty. Not like when they were still under domination of the world powers of the Persian or Medio-Persian, Romans, etc.

My heart's Desire
Oct 12th 2007, 05:53 PM
This is an interesting subject but we are going from "Is 1948 prophecy fulfilled" (Israel as a nation) to "the salvation of Israel". Interesting but gets confusing.
Ah, more study indeed!
I believe that the covenant to King David and his descendents is everlasting and eternal. (as we know this involves Jesus) I know that God has always had a remnant of His people remain.
I can see also an earthly Kingdom.
Is it modern Israel?
Yes, more study indeed!
But alas, I have to go to work yet again! (physical work)
Blaaaaaaaaaa.

Allegra
Oct 12th 2007, 06:08 PM
This is an interesting subject but we are going from "Is 1948 prophecy fulfilled" (Israel as a nation) to "the salvation of Israel". Interesting but gets confusing.
Ah, more study indeed!
I believe that the covenant to King David and his descendents is everlasting and eternal. (as we know this involves Jesus) I know that God has always had a remnant of His people remain.
I can see also an earthly Kingdom.
Is it modern Israel?
Yes, more study indeed!
But alas, I have to go to work yet again! (physical work)
Blaaaaaaaaaa.
I believe Jesus is the one who is understood on David's throne.
Rev.3:7-13
To the Church in Philadelphia

7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
There are other Scriptures, but I also am busy-bee today (with an ad in the paper) I only work 1 shift per wk now, you'd think I'd have more time- but negative!
However, this one Scripture is a good one. Notice there's no earthly millennium spoken of?
Have a blessed day! :)

ShirleyFord
Oct 12th 2007, 09:15 PM
Here is Romans 11:25 again.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As the apostle Paul said, Israel as a nation is blinded until the fulness of the gentiles come in, not individual Jews who accept the lord Jesus Christ. I am going to believe what the apostle Paul said and he said Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentile come in.


Where oh where CWB, do you find "Israel as a nation" in what Paul said?


Shirley

third hero
Oct 12th 2007, 10:37 PM
I agree. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then ever last Gentile that is to be saved will be saved. Once that occurs then Christ will return. The fullness of Israel and the fullness of the Gentiles will occur at the same time. Does it make sense that Gentiles could no longer be saved after that and only Israelites can be saved? Not at all, yet that's what many believe is going to happen.

Is it even reasonable to think that everyone in the nation of Israel will be saved at some point? I don't believe so. Yet people believe that will happen. Will repentance and faith no longer be required in Israel or something? How could every single one of them repent and put their faith in Christ? It's not reasonable to think that would happen. Paul himself said he merely hoped to help save some of them (Rom 11:14). Why would he go from saying that to saying they would all be saved? No, like you said, when he said all Israel would be saved, he was speaking of the Israel of God, which he had spoken about in Romans 9:6-8.

I disagree. The fullness of the Gentiles, IMHO, is an agricultural reference. Just like Jesus comopares the world of the lost to a harvest field, Paul is using the "fullness of the Gentiles" as a reference to the state of the gentile harvest. It's another way of saying that when the time for the harvesting of the Gentiles is ripe, like fruit being ripe for the picking, at that point, the rest of Israel will have their blinders removed.

I do not see this as a time when all of the Gentiles are saved. I tend to see this as a parallel to the parable of the workers and the vineyard. When the eleventh hour workers were ready, the Lord of the vineyard went forth to find them. When He did, he hired them, and they worked in the vineyard forthat final hour. I believe that this is the point of Paul in Romans 11:25. The fullness of the Gentiles would be the 11th hour workers that the Lord of the harvest hired to bring in the last of the harvest. This would include all that is found in chapter 7. Mainly, the church is divided into two groups. In the one group are the 144,000 Israelites who have been separated to be on the Mount of Olives at the exact point when it splits. The other group, consisting of both Jew and Gentile, are those who continue the work of bringing souls to the Lord, and those numbers no man could count.

And this makes sense, because even though all of the workers were gathered into the vineyard, not all of the work was done until that day was over. The vineyard, in this case, would be the same harvest field that has been in existence since the death and resurrection of Lord Jesus, the world. The workers are those who have been given the gift of salvation, who have been called chosen to do God's work in the field. There are those chosen at differing points in the day, which in this case, the day signifies the age of salvation (notice I am not saying "Age of the Gentiles, because the age of Salvation began at Penticost, and it was, like Paul mentioned in Romans 1, To the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles). As the workers grow in number in the vineyard, so do the need for there to be more workers, and so the Lord gathers more. When the 11th hour comes, the amount of workers needed for the final harvest would be complete, because the harvest is at it's fullness.

ShirleyFord
Oct 13th 2007, 05:50 AM
3H,

The day of salvation began in the Garden.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

cwb
Oct 13th 2007, 06:16 AM
Where oh where CWB, do you find "Israel as a nation" in what Paul said?


Shirley

Where do you see individuals in what Paul said? Usually if I say Germany, Poland, or the United States of America, I am referring to the nation and not individuals within those nations. Same thing here.

ShirleyFord
Oct 13th 2007, 06:36 AM
Where do you see individuals in what Paul said? Usually if I say Germany, Poland, or the United States of America, I am referring to the nation and not individuals within those nations. Same thing here.

Oh ok, so when Paul says "Israel", CWB interprets "the nation of Israel".

Tell me this, how do you define "nation" any nation, in particular "the nation of Israel"?


Shirley

third hero
Oct 13th 2007, 11:27 PM
3H,

The day of salvation began in the Garden.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Was Adam saved? Did Eve gain eternal life? Who other than Enoch was given the gift of Eternal life? Who was saved before Christ died on the Cross?

No, Shirley. The Age of Salvation began on the cross, and nowhere before. Everything before Christ's day on the cross was only a foreshadow of the age of Salvation.

quiet dove
Oct 14th 2007, 01:58 AM
Was Adam saved? Did Eve gain eternal life? Who other than Enoch was given the gift of Eternal life? Who was saved before Christ died on the Cross?

No, Shirley. The Age of Salvation began on the cross, and nowhere before. Everything before Christ's day on the cross was only a foreshadow of the age of Salvation.

I am not sure I understand you here. What about all the faithful prophets and all the others that faithfully trusted God. Are you saying they do not have eternal life? How can that be, I am sure prophets like Daniel fully expect to be resurrected. What about those like Abraham?

ShirleyFord
Oct 14th 2007, 04:48 AM
Was Adam saved? Did Eve gain eternal life? Who other than Enoch was given the gift of Eternal life? Who was saved before Christ died on the Cross?

All who trusted in the sacrifice of the blood and body of the Lord Jesus Christ by faith looking ahead to the cross to save them from their sins.



No, Shirley. The Age of Salvation began on the cross, and nowhere before. Everything before Christ's day on the cross was only a foreshadow of the age of Salvation.

So John the Baptist was not saved since he died before the cross? If he wasn't saved before he died, then he is suffering torment in h*ll.


Shirley

Allegra
Oct 14th 2007, 04:57 PM
I do not believe for one second that John the Baptist's soul/spirit is in Hades bc he died before Jesus' resurrection.
Luke 1:13-17 13But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:13-17&version=31#fen-NIV-24901a)] 16Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Now if when Jesus died on the cross, he went & preached to the spirits in prison (hades) (1Peter 3:19) Also, tombs broke open & bodies of holy people were raised to life (Matt 27:52) And- Jesus also told the thief on the cross that he would be with him today in paradise- Well, I believe that the spirits of the faithful departed were set free to heaven- including John the Baptist & the O.T. righteous.
In fact, in Rev. 20, those reigning with Christ (among the beheaded) is John the Baptist. John's soul is up there right now!

ShirleyFord
Oct 14th 2007, 06:05 PM
Now if when Jesus died on the cross, he went & preached to the spirits in prison (hades) (1Peter 3:19) Also, tombs broke open & bodies of holy people were raised to life (Matt 27:52) And- Jesus also told the thief on the cross that he would be with him today in paradise- Well, I believe that the spirits of the faithful departed were set free to heaven- including John the Baptist & the O.T. righteous.
In fact, in Rev. 20, those reigning with Christ (among the beheaded) is John the Baptist. John's soul is up there right now!



Of course the soul of John the Baptist is alive in heaven. His physically dead body is still buried in the grave where his disciples buried it when Herod had him beheaded, where he awaits the Second Coming of Christ when he will receive his eternal physical resurrection.

1 Peter 3:19 does not say that Jesus preached the 3 days and nights His physically dead body lay in the tomb and His spirit was in heaven with His Father God.

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


This is referring to the physically alive but spiritually dead people during the 120 years while Noah was building the ark. Spiritually alive Noah was the one who preached to them, while he was physically alive.


Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

2 Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


These wicked people in Noah's day didn't get another chance to be saved. Our day of salvation is while we are alive physically. We either accept Jesus or reject Him during our physical lives here on earth. Once we die, we don't get a second chance to accept Jesus. Neither did they in Noah's day.

The Bible doesn't say who those people were who came out of the grave when Jesus was resurrected. They went into Jerusalem, not up to heaven with Jesus when He ascended back into heaven.


Shirley

third hero
Oct 15th 2007, 01:39 AM
Again, the point is missed. Here was my point, and here it is again. Jesus was talking about His words being the source of life for both the Living and the dead.

The souls in Hell have no hope.

However, the souls stuck in the Sheol, even if the place was called Abraham's bosom, they could not live with God, because although they were blameless, they still had the stain of Adam's sin on them. Something was needed to purify their souls so that they could lie with God. That was the words of Jesus, and His sacrifice. IN truth, the dead were waiting patiently for that time to come, the time in which the Son of God would take on flesh, and save all mankind.

Hence, this is the true meaning of John 5:25-29. John 5:28-29 is only incomplete, because those verses are the explanation of verse 25. Without Verse 25 being in the Bible, anyone can use verses 28-29 to say whatever they want, which is what some folk are doing even today.

ShirleyFord
Oct 15th 2007, 02:55 AM
"Abraham's bosom" is mentioned one time in the Bible. I believe that it was another name for paradise. And paradise was in heaven.

Jesus told the thief on the cross...

Lk 23:43 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The spirit/soul of both Jesus and the former thief/Christian went to heaven while their physical dead bodies were buried on earth in the grave.

Paul was caught up spiritually to the third heaven, where the throne of God is, and he called it paradise.....


2 Cor 12:4 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Jesus told John that paradise is the paradise of God....



Rev 2:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Jesus was slain in eternity from the foundation of the world before God created man...

Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


His death though didn't become a reality in time though until Jesus actually physically died on the cross for the sins of the whole world.


Remember that Jesus is eternal. He is the Son of God. He lived before He took on flesh and was concieved in Mary's womb and was born in Bethlehem. The entire focus of the OT is the coming of the Messiah, the Deliverer and Redeemer. The gospel of Jesus Christ was preached by every OT prophet. And those who believed the gospel by faith were saved by the same grace of God that you and I are today through the same faith. Those OT saints became righteous spiritually as you and I did when we by faith believed and accepted the gospel.

Now we can't go to heaven physically, no man can except Jesus, until the redemption of our physical bodies at our resurrection when Christ returns.

Shirley

third hero
Oct 15th 2007, 02:44 PM
If Abraham's bosom was in heaven, then why did Jesus himself mention that it and hades share the same space, but separated by a wide gulf?

If this paradise was in heaven, then why would the dead need to hear the words of Christ while he was on earth? Also, why would all of the righteous dead, including David the King, appear after Christ's death and then disappear shortly afterward?

Answer. They were still stained with sin. The y were called blameless, but never called sinless. If they were without sin, then they would not have needed to be saved. However, the blood of Christ not only cleansed our sins, but theirs as well. They, upon the death of the Lord, received the promised gift of salvation that they longed for for so long. The blood of the Lamb turned them from being blameless, to righteous, according to God's standard. This is why they appeared, because t he blood of Christ cleansed them of all iniquity, even the ones that they had no knowledge of doing. From the point of Christ's death onward, Abraham's Bosom was empty, because there was no longer a need to put the souls of the blameless apart from God. Now, they are in true paradse, which is with the Father, awaiting the day in which the Lord will destroy the world, and bring forth New Jerusalem.

ShirleyFord
Oct 15th 2007, 04:13 PM
3H,

Where do you find David appearing and disappearing after Jesus went to the cross?

Do you believe in pergatory? Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. Do you think he was literally in Abraham's chest? After all, Abraham is dead at the time of the earthly ministry of Christ as well. This is the account from Luke 16:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Lazarus and the rich man were not in the same place. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. The rich man was in h*ll. That is all this Scripture says.

If Abraham's bosom were a place of residence in holding until heaven were opened up after Christ came then what happened to the saints before Abraham? Where did they go?

My heart's Desire
Oct 15th 2007, 06:29 PM
I believe Jesus is the one who is understood on David's throne.
Rev.3:7-13
To the Church in Philadelphia

7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
There are other Scriptures, but I also am busy-bee today (with an ad in the paper) I only work 1 shift per wk now, you'd think I'd have more time- but negative!
However, this one Scripture is a good one. Notice there's no earthly millennium spoken of?
Have a blessed day! :)


Ah yes, I also believe it is Jesus who has inherited the Throne of David, but as you can imagine I believe the New Jerusalem is a city come down from heaven . I also believe the 1000 yrs is a literal 1000 year period on earth.
Rev. 20:2 Satan bound for 1000 yrs.
Rev. 20:3 Satan released after 1000 yrs.
Rev. 20: 7-9
(from the Latin mille meaning thousand and annus meaning year which is where we get 1000 yrs.)which is what the word millenium means.
The only thing that to me would get in the way of this would be if one spiritualized it taking into account the verse here in 2 Peter 3:8 where it says,

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


In that verse I believe since it is discussing our perception that the Lord is slow concerning time, we are reminded that the Lord's perception of time is not like ours. We may think 1000 yrs is a long time but it is like a day to the Lord in His time.
The verse doesn't say : with the Lord one day is 1000 yrs but uses the word "like". So it is a comparison.

Yes, I'll agree with you the scripture you quoted is a good one and full of spiritual jewels!
Time for work ... again.... :) Never enough time ...speaking of.

ShirleyFord
Oct 15th 2007, 08:52 PM
We find "thousand years" recorded in the Bible 4 other times outside of Revelation 20. And all 4 times "thousand years" is used as a figurative amount of time but never as a literal amount of time:

Two times in the Old Testament

1. Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2. Eccles 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?



Two Times in the New Testament, all in the same verse

1. 2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

2. and a thousand years as one day.


What then makes us conclude that the 6 other times that "thousand years" is used, which by the way are all in the same Chapter, Revelation 20, should be interpreted any differently than it is everywhere else in the Bible?

cwb
Oct 16th 2007, 02:53 AM
We find "thousand years" recorded in the Bible 4 other times outside of Revelation 20. And all 4 times "thousand years" is used as a figurative amount of time but never as a literal amount of time:

Two times in the Old Testament

1. Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2. Eccles 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?



Two Times in the New Testament, all in the same verse

1. 2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

2. and a thousand years as one day.


What then makes us conclude that the 6 other times that "thousand years" is used, which by the way are all in the same Chapter, Revelation 20, should be interpreted any differently than it is everywhere else in the Bible?

All the other places than Revelation 20 that one thousand years is used, the words "as" or "though" is used. The words "as" or "though" is not found in Rev. 20. I do not believe it is wise biblicacal interpretation to add a preposition where there is no preposition.

My heart's Desire
Oct 16th 2007, 06:08 AM
We find "thousand years" recorded in the Bible 4 other times outside of Revelation 20. And all 4 times "thousand years" is used as a figurative amount of time but never as a literal amount of time:

Two times in the Old Testament

1. Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2. Eccles 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?



Two Times in the New Testament, all in the same verse

1. 2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,

2. and a thousand years as one day.


What then makes us conclude that the 6 other times that "thousand years" is used, which by the way are all in the same Chapter, Revelation 20, should be interpreted any differently than it is everywhere else in the Bible?

Because of the context in which it was written. The verse I reference in Peter is a comparison.

Revelation 20 tells me that The thousand years will be completed, that those whose part was of the first resurrection will reign with Him for 1000yrs.

It doesn't say that "it was as if the 1000 yrs were completed. Nor does it say,
something like: the 1000 yrs they reigned with Christ was like 1 day...nor...they reigned with Christ like it was 1000 yrs etc.
So therefore, it must be a literal 1000 yr period of time.

ShirleyFord
Oct 17th 2007, 12:54 AM
All the other places than Revelation 20 that one thousand years is used, the words "as" or "though" is used. The words "as" or "though" is not found in Rev. 20. I do not believe it is wise biblicacal interpretation to add a preposition where there is no preposition.

Where did I add a preposition?

Where do you find "one" thousand in any of these verses?

Rev 20:2 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

cwb
Oct 17th 2007, 02:49 AM
Where did I add a preposition?



right here



What then makes us conclude that the 6 other times that "thousand years" is used, which by the way are all in the same Chapter, Revelation 20, should be interpreted any differently than it is everywhere else in the Bible?


You are saying that "thousand years" should be interpreted the same way in Rev 20 as in the other four verses you quoted. If that is not what you are saying, let me know. In all four of the other verses you quoted there is a preposition. In three of them the preposition "as" and in one of them "though". The verses in Rev. 20 has no preposition as in the other four verses you quoted. In order to interprete Rev 20 the same as the four verses you quoted, there would have to be a preposition in the verses in Rev 20. I see no such preposition. It seems to me that when you say the 4 verses you quoted are similar to the 6 times "a thousand" are in Rev 20, you are adding a preposition that is not there in the text. Can you show me any preposition in Rev 20 that are showing a comparison?



Where do you find "one" thousand in any of these verses?



That is an interesting and strange question, Shirley. I am just reading English. In English, if I say the words, "a thousand years", "a hundred years", or "a million years", I am referring to one thousand years, one hundred years or one million years. I am failing to get your point. When you say the words, "a thousand", do you not usually mean one thousand.

ShirleyFord
Oct 17th 2007, 06:54 AM
Because of the context in which it was written. The verse I reference in Peter is a comparison.

Revelation 20 tells me that The thousand years will be completed, that those whose part was of the first resurrection will reign with Him for 1000yrs.

It doesn't say that "it was as if the 1000 yrs were completed. Nor does it say,
something like: the 1000 yrs they reigned with Christ was like 1 day...nor...they reigned with Christ like it was 1000 yrs etc.
So therefore, it must be a literal 1000 yr period of time.

The kingdom of Christ is not a temporal kingdom of only 1000 years but is an everlasting kingdom that will never end.

Is 9:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Lk 1:33 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

2 Pet 1:11 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


Shirley

ShirleyFord
Oct 17th 2007, 07:35 AM
right here



You are saying that "thousand years" should be interpreted the same way in Rev 20 as in the other four verses you quoted. If that is not what you are saying, let me know. In all four of the other verses you quoted there is a preposition. In three of them the preposition "as" and in one of them "though". The verses in Rev. 20 has no preposition as in the other four verses you quoted. In order to interprete Rev 20 the same as the four verses you quoted, there would have to be a preposition in the verses in Rev 20. I see no such preposition. It seems to me that when you say the 4 verses you quoted are similar to the 6 times "a thousand" are in Rev 20, you are adding a preposition that is not there in the text. Can you show me any preposition in Rev 20 that are showing a comparison?

So you are saying that it doesn't matter that the other 4 times that "thousand years" is used as a figurative amount of time, you can't interpret "thousand years" in Rev. 20 as a figurative amount of time since it doesn't have a preposition in it to show that it is figurative. So it must be taken literal.

In Revelation we see Jesus with a sword hanging out of his mouth. There is no preposition to tell us that the sword is to be interpreted figuratively. So do you automatically interpret sword as a literal sword simply because there is no preposition there?


That is an interesting and strange question, Shirley. I am just reading English. In English, if I say the words, "a thousand years", "a hundred years", or "a million years", I am referring to one thousand years, one hundred years or one million years. I am failing to get your point. When you say the words, "a thousand", do you not usually mean one thousand.

No, not when I'm speaking of a thousand in a figurative sense. If I were to say, "I've told him a thousand times....", that wouldn't mean that I had told him whatever one thousand times. But that I had told him something many, many times but he still didn't get it. (;))

Don't you find it interesting that in all of the 10 times "thousand years" is used, "one" is never used before it to indicate a specific amount of time?

Shirley

cwb
Oct 17th 2007, 12:55 PM
So you are saying that it doesn't matter that the other 4 times that "thousand years" is used as a figurative amount of time, you can't interpret "thousand years" in Rev. 20 as a figurative amount of time since it doesn't have a preposition in it to show that it is figurative. So it must be taken literal.

In Revelation we see Jesus with a sword hanging out of his mouth. There is no preposition to tell us that the sword is to be interpreted figuratively. So do you automatically interpret sword as a literal sword simply because there is no preposition there?


Your comparison to the other four times "a thousand years" is used really is no comparison. Also because a sword coming out of Jesus mouth is figurative does not mean that every single passage in the bible should be taken figuratively. There has to be a reason to make something figurative. The reason for making something figurative has to be a reason other than that if it is to be taken literally, your whole doctrine falls apart. I do not see it as good biblical interpretation to say whenever something does not fit my doctrine, "it must be figurative".


Don't you find it interesting that in all of the 10 times "thousand years" is used, "one" is never used before it to indicate a specific amount of time?


Normally the word "a" before a number such as thousand, hundred or million indicates singular. Since it has been well past a thousand years since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I am going to have to reject your interpretation that we are living in the thousand years now.

matthew94
Oct 17th 2007, 01:19 PM
There has to be a reason to make something figurative. The reason for making something figurative has to be a reason other than that if it is to be taken literally, your whole doctrine falls apart. I do not see it as good biblical interpretation to say whenever something does not fit my doctrine, "it must be figurative".Wouldn't the fact that the nouns around 'thousand' in Revelation 20 are obviously figurative be a good reason for taking it figuratively? Wouldn't the fact that it's in the book of Revelation keep you open minded to the chance that it's figurative? Wouldn't the fact that a literal 1000 year period is no where else mentioned in Scripture be a reason to think that's it's not literal?

And doesn't your second argument work just as much against you? If Revelation 20's 'thousand' is not literal, pre-millennialism has ZERO other verses in Scripture to specifically establish a 1000 year period. I'd say your argument actually works more against you than amillennialism.


Normally the word "a" before a number such as thousand, hundred or million indicates singular. Since it has been well past a thousand years since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I am going to have to reject your interpretation that we are living in the thousand years now.

No, that's not the normal way to interpret 'thousand' when it is being used figuratively. You have to make a biblical argument for taking 'thousand' in a wooden literal sense in Revelation 20, but that will be difficult since it's in Revelation, surrounded by symbols, and 'thousand' is usually symbolic in the Bible. But I'm anxious to see your argument!

My heart's Desire
Oct 17th 2007, 07:19 PM
No, that's not the normal way to interpret 'thousand' when it is being used figuratively. You have to make a biblical argument for taking 'thousand' in a wooden literal sense in Revelation 20, but that will be difficult since it's in Revelation, surrounded by symbols, and 'thousand' is usually symbolic in the Bible. But I'm anxious to see your argument!


Using your argument though that the book of Revelation uses figurtive, symbolic language so everything in it is symbolic, figuritive then are you therefore also not saying that there isn't anything in it literal?
Or are you saying that the symbolic just depends on who is trying to intrepret it as to if it is literal or symbolic?
I see nothing difficult in seeing a literal thousand yrs in a book full of symbols and figures myself.
Using what you are saying here means that anyone who see's a sword coming from the mouth of Christ could mean to someone then that it is not actually Christ but is only symbolic, just to name one example.
If it is figurative, then what amont of time do you think it symbolizes?

matthew94
Oct 17th 2007, 08:02 PM
Hey :)

First, I think it is worth saying again that a symbolic interpretation of a passage doesn't mean the passage isn't describing something REAL (literal). By saying a passage is symbolic, we are merely saying the author used metaphorical (or some such) language to communicate a reality.

Second, the book of Revelation is obviously a heavily symbolic book. It even declares itself to be so first by saying it came to John in a 'signified' manner (kjv 1:1) and second by declaring itself to be a 'prophecy' (1:3). The 'signs' are signs of realities. The figurative are figures of fact. Prophecies typically used apocalyptic and/or symbolic language.

As a result of the above points, I feel the onus is on the person who wants to take the 'thousand' as non-symbolic. They have a responsibility, a burden-of-proof, to find some other passages in Scripture (perhaps in a historical, non-poetic book) that talks about the 1000 years in a wooden literal sense. The weight of the passage is already on the symbolic side, not just because it's found within Revelation, but within the following specific passage:


And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.Does anyone think an actual KEY is involved?
Or does that represent authority?
Does anyone think an actual CHAIN is involved?
Or does that represent restraint?
We know an actual dragon/serpent isn't involved
Because it says it represents satan/the-devil
Did the 'angel' actually 'throw' satan into the abyss physically?
Or was this a spiritual victory?
Is the 'Abyss' physically 'locked' and 'sealed'?
Or is it a way of describing that God's judgment is firm?

These answers are obvious to 95% of the readers of Revelation.

So when we come to 'a thousand years'...
Our FIRST ASSUMPTION should be that it's also symbolic
Just the fact that it is such a round number tips us off to this fact
Not to mention the fact that it's so often a symbolic number in Scripture


Exodus 20:6
but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.Will God NOT show love to the 1001st generation of those who love Him?


Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.Are 1001 days NOT like a day to God?


Job 9:3
Though one wished to dispute with him, he could not answer him one time out of a thousand.Could we legitimately dispute with God the 1001st time?


Psalm 50:10
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.God doesn't own hill number 1001?


Psalm 84:10
Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.If I could experience 1001 days in the tents of the wicked, is this better than 1 day in God's court?

Obviously the term 'a thousand' is commonplace in symbolic usage. It represents a lot of something, or the complete amount necessary to make the point.

In my opinion, knowing when something is symbolic and when something is not isn't nearly as hard as people make it out to be. When we realize what Revelation 20 is saying, and how that relates to other NT Scriptures, and how the 'thousand' years in Rev. 20 is surrounded by other symbols, etc, it becomes obvious, it seems to me, that it should be interpreted as communicating a long period of time in which satan is restrained from deceiving the nations.

My heart's Desire
Oct 17th 2007, 08:31 PM
Hey :)

First, I think it is worth saying again that a symbolic interpretation of a passage doesn't mean the passage isn't describing something REAL (literal). By saying a passage is symbolic, we are merely saying the author used metaphorical (or some such) language to communicate a reality.

Second, the book of Revelation is obviously a heavily symbolic book. It even declares itself to be so first by saying it came to John in a 'signified' manner (kjv 1:1) and second by declaring itself to be a 'prophecy' (1:3). The 'signs' are signs of realities. The figurative are figures of fact. Prophecies typically used apocalyptic and/or symbolic language.

As a result of the above points, I feel the onus is on the person who wants to take the 'thousand' as non-symbolic. They have a responsibility, a burden-of-proof, to find some other passages in Scripture (perhaps in a historical, non-poetic book) that talks about the 1000 years in a wooden literal sense. The weight of the passage is already on the symbolic side, not just because it's found within Revelation, but within the following specific passage:

Does anyone think an actual KEY is involved?
Or does that represent authority?
Does anyone think an actual CHAIN is involved?
Or does that represent restraint?
We know an actual dragon/serpent isn't involved
Because it says it represents satan/the-devil
Did the 'angel' actually 'throw' satan into the abyss physically?
Or was this a spiritual victory?
Is the 'Abyss' physically 'locked' and 'sealed'?
Or is it a way of describing that God's judgment is firm?

These answers are obvious to 95% of the readers of Revelation.

So when we come to 'a thousand years'...
Our FIRST ASSUMPTION should be that it's also symbolic
Just the fact that it is such a round number tips us off to this fact
Not to mention the fact that it's so often a symbolic number in Scripture

Will God NOT show love to the 1001st generation of those who love Him?

Are 1001 days NOT like a day to God?
Could we legitimately dispute with God the 1001st time?

God doesn't own hill number 1001?

If I could experience 1001 days in the tents of the wicked, is this better than 1 day in God's court?

Obviously the term 'a thousand' is commonplace in symbolic usage. It represents a lot of something, or the complete amount necessary to make the point.

In my opinion, knowing when something is symbolic and when something is not isn't nearly as hard as people make it out to be. When we realize what Revelation 20 is saying, and how that relates to other NT Scriptures, and how the 'thousand' years in Rev. 20 is surrounded by other symbols, etc, it becomes obvious, it seems to me, that it should be interpreted as communicating a long period of time in which satan is restrained from deceiving the nations.
This may be true and I for one have few problems knowing when something is a symbol. I read the Whole Bible in the same way as I do Revelation as symbols abound in every book just about. I read it in plain sense as long as it makes sense that way.
I also don't have a problem with the angel being an actual angel with an actual key etc etc and binding Satan for a literal 1000 yrs.
So in Rev. 20:5 how long do you think the rest of the dead, who were not part of the first resurrection, have to wait to come to life for judgement, if it is not an actual 1000 yrs? I asking because the period between the times of this is 1000 yrs.
The point is that I am reading it with normal english rules, with context. It describe events happening before, during and after a set period of time. 1000 yrs.
Anyway, I won't go further because I know there are many in their doctrine who do not believe the 1000 yrs is literal yrs and I'm getting off the original thread of the OP. I stand by it being the 1000 Millenial reign of Christ over His Kingdom.

ShirleyFord
Oct 17th 2007, 10:08 PM
This may be true and I for one have few problems knowing when something is a symbol. I read the Whole Bible in the same way as I do Revelation as symbols abound in every book just about. I read it in plain sense as long as it makes sense that way.
I also don't have a problem with the angel being an actual angel with an actual key etc etc and binding Satan for a literal 1000 yrs.
So in Rev. 20:5 how long do you think the rest of the dead, who were not part of the first resurrection, have to wait to come to life for judgement, if it is not an actual 1000 yrs? I asking because the period between the times of this is 1000 yrs.
The point is that I am reading it with normal english rules, with context. It describe events happening before, during and after a set period of time. 1000 yrs.
Anyway, I won't go further because I know there are many in their doctrine who do not believe the 1000 yrs is literal yrs and I'm getting off the original thread of the OP. I stand by it being the 1000 Millenial reign of Christ over His Kingdom.

The "thousand years" is a period of time when the following things occur:

1. Satan is bound, restrained, defeated but not destroyed - vs. 1-3
2. The first death - physical death of those in v. 4 and 5a
3. "They lived" - v. 4 "resurrection" is not mentioned in this verse
4. "They lived not - v. 5a "resurrection" is not mentioned here
5. The first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ - vs 5b and 6
6. Those who have part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy and protected from the second death - v. 6 and they live and reign while physically dead, those in v. 4
7. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection are not blessed, they are not holy and they suffer the second death, eternal death, when they live again - v. 5a after the thousand years

Many interpret "they lived" in v. 4 as the eternal physical resurrection by "they lived not until after the thousand years" in v. 5a. And then pick up "first resurrection" from v. 5b and decide that those in v. 4 lived because they had received their first resurrection, their eternal physical resurrection since they have already decided that those in v. 5a would receive their eternal physical resurrection a thousand years later, which they call "the second resurrection".

But those in v. 5a will not live, have eternal physical life, when they receive their eternal physical resurrection of damnation, the second death. They live when they are resurrected back into their unchanged mortal, corruptible bodies long enough to stand judgement. Those in v. 4 receive their eternal physical resurrection of life and their physical bodies are changed from mortal to immortal and from corruptible to incorruptible.

Scripture proves that both the just and the unjust are judged and receive the eternal resurrection at the same time on the same day, the last day when Christ returns.


Shirley

third hero
Oct 17th 2007, 10:39 PM
You know, this is why I bowed out of this thread a long time ago. No one can prove to me that 1000 years in Revelation 20 is not literal. There is no way that Shirley or Matthew94 is going to relinquish the thought that a literal period of time is not indefinite.

Therefore, I feel that the continuation of this thread is futility in the making, especially since the OP was about 1948 and the significance of that event in terms of prophecy. If anyone want to debunk the thought that 1948 partially fulfilled Ezekiel 37, let me know.

My heart's Desire
Oct 17th 2007, 11:03 PM
Therefore, I feel that the continuation of this thread is futility in the making, especially since the OP was about 1948 and the significance of that event in terms of prophecy. If anyone want to debunk the thought that 1948 partially fulfilled Ezekiel 37, let me know.
Ah yes, and that's how we got here. One has to believe that God is not finished with (or maybe that He was) with an actual Nation called Israel on their own land in order to know if 1948 either started or fulfilled prophecy.
Back to Eze 37 because I am curious myself, about Eze I mean. :)

Allegra
Oct 17th 2007, 11:35 PM
I agree with Shirley & Matthew94.
The period of a thousand years I would apply to signify " a long period of time" And this thousand years are what we are living in now. This thousand years ends with His second coming. The devil is bound now but his confinement, signified by a long period of time, must be fulfilled before the devil can be permitted to deceive the nations that live on the corners of the earth. (Gog & Magog- or Gods enemies)
The passage where Christ's second coming in chapter 19 cannot be adduced as an objection to this view simply bc the the book of Revelation isn't chronological. It is ideological.

I was going with the flow of the thread, but now as far as 1948 a fulfillment of prophecy? I've already posted that I only thought Luke 21:24 could be fulfillment in that Jerusalem was sovreign again & not controlled by gentiles.
I have already posted my views on Ezekiel, regarding the dry bones & Gog.

cwb
Oct 18th 2007, 01:29 AM
You know, this is why I bowed out of this thread a long time ago. No one can prove to me that 1000 years in Revelation 20 is not literal. There is no way that Shirley or Matthew94 is going to relinquish the thought that a literal period of time is not indefinite.

Therefore, I feel that the continuation of this thread is futility in the making, especially since the OP was about 1948 and the significance of that event in terms of prophecy. If anyone want to debunk the thought that 1948 partially fulfilled Ezekiel 37, let me know.

I agree with you, Third Hero, that Revelation 20 is literal and that the attempts to prove otherwise fall short. In any case, thanks for getting this thread back on track with the original post concerning 1948.

Concerning Ezekiel 37, I am not convinced that this prophecy has been fulfilled in 1948. I am not convinced that this prophecy has been fulfilled at all as of yet. When it says that one king shall rule over them, that sure sounds like what Jesus Christ will be doing as it says in Zechariah 14.

The verses you quoted from Ezekiel 37 say
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Here it is saying that it is God who will take the children of Israel and bring them into their own land. Was what happened in 1948 something God did or was it something man did?

My heart's Desire
Oct 18th 2007, 02:29 AM
Here it is saying that it is God who will take the children of Israel and bring them into their own land. Was what happened in 1948 something God did or was it something man did?
Well, something interesting that I didn't know until recently is (if I remember) and say it correctly is that there are 2 groups with different viewpoints on rather Israel should actually be on the land to begin with.
Without trying to remember it all, I'll say that one group say almost exactly that. They don't believe that God put the ones who are currently on the land, there. Not remembering my facts it is hard to post but one group are Zionists and the other is not or something like that. I'll have to look it up again.
Ok, on one website what I got was that the religious in Israel want to stay within Biblical guidelines for the land. Secular Israelis think Israel needs to stay inside the Green Zone.
What I'm trying to remember is something I read awhile back that some Israeli's think as far as the land goes that it is man (government) that is trying to do what they are still waiting for God to do in bringing them back to the land.
I may be mistaken, but I think the land in dispute between the groups is the West Bank (biblical Judea and Sameria) and maybe Gaza.
Forgive for error as I'm trying to remember the facts.

third hero
Oct 18th 2007, 04:18 PM
I agree with you, Third Hero, that Revelation 20 is literal and that the attempts to prove otherwise fall short. In any case, thanks for getting this thread back on track with the original post concerning 1948.

Not a problem, cwb. The premise of this thread is too important, and too interesting to have it be locked away because of a serious derailment. Now back to 1948.


Concerning Ezekiel 37, I am not convinced that this prophecy has been fulfilled in 1948. I am not convinced that this prophecy has been fulfilled at all as of yet. When it says that one king shall rule over them, that sure sounds like what Jesus Christ will be doing as it says in Zechariah 14.

The verses you quoted from Ezekiel 37 say
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Here it is saying that it is God who will take the children of Israel and bring them into their own land. Was what happened in 1948 something God did or was it something man did?

Well, the answer to this question has to be revealed through the historical records. Was this the first time that Israel was brought back to her own land? No. They were restored after the 70 years of captivity. How was it done? By decree of Cyrus and Axerxes (I know I goofed that guy's name). Was it God that did it? Yes, becasue before it happened, Daniel prophesied about it, and it was fulfilled shortly afterward. God gets the credit, because He decreed to His prophets that He would have this done. He also used men, gentiles, to do His bidding.

This goes back to the thought that God can use anything to fulfill His will. In the case of 1948, God used Great Britain to bring th people back to her own land, and in 1948, Israel was recognized as a sovereign nation. This definitely fulfilled the prophecy declaring that Israel will be gathered back from among the heathen, and will be placed back in her own land. The Israelites did not just come to Israel from Germany, but from all over the world, even the US. On top of that, who else could take credit for fulfilling a prophecy that they had no idea about. Remember, before 1948, the consensus among the churches was that God was finished with Israel, a concept that some still take in today. So, England did not have any vested interests in bringing Israel back to lands that they controlled before 1948. Remember also, Great Britain controlled all of the area that was known as the Palestinian territories. Palestine was not a state back then, and they had no legal claim to the land of Israel. England did.

England literally gave the land to the Israelites, and also recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. This is unlike anything that GB had done before, since they still had a rather large sum of land that was under England's banner, including India. (India became independant in 1950, 2 years after England relinquished the palestinian terrotories and recognized Israel as a sovereign nation). On top of that, Israel, like it is mentioned in Ezekiel 37, is not two portions of one nation, as it was in the past. Instead, Israel, upon recognition of sovereignty, unified itself, becoming one nation, consisting of Israel, and nothing more. There, today in Israel, Judah is not a separate province, and samaria does not exist. Israel is one, just as the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 foretold.

Now the second part ofthat prophecy is still pending, because the King of Kings is to rule over her forever, just as that prophecy foretold. We can have confidence in that because ISrael exists now, Christ is coming soon. The reason is because the only one who can rule Israel as the root of David is Lord Jesus.

Dandylionheart
Oct 19th 2007, 04:55 AM
(PART 1)Now, here's the rest of the story. The prophecy of the valley of dry bones, and the prophecy of the two sticks are one in the same. For they both state that God is going to bring Israel back to her own land, and that there will no longer be any distinction between Judah and Israel.

(PART TWO) However, the "lost" tribes of Israel have been "revived", and they are living in their own land, the land of Israel. There is no distinction between Israel and Judah today, for it is truly, one stick. It is Israel. The two sticks have indeed merged, and it will never be split up again, as this prophecy proclaims it.


Part 1= The valley of dry bones is about the resurrection. The prophecy of 2 sticks is about the Jews and the 10 scattered tribes getting together and becoming 1 stick in the hand of the Lord.

PART 2= Lost tribes revived? Where? Yes in many minds the 10 lost tribes are considered Jews. In scripture, they are not. Believe the scripture.

My heart's Desire
Oct 19th 2007, 05:08 AM
A note of interest. Today (I believe) the President spoke on Iran (again) and it was noted I assume that in relation to that, 2 TV stations in Israel was showing a map with the nations around it, that are similiar to the ones in Ezekiel 37. The Gog and Magag war was mentioned by the Jorunalists. Interesting.

My heart's Desire
Oct 19th 2007, 05:13 AM
There, today in Israel, Judah is not a separate province, and samaria does not exist. Israel is one, just as the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 foretold.

.
Just to mention, that the area of Judea and Samaria is what is called today's West Bank. That's why there is so much conflict over it in the news.

third hero
Oct 19th 2007, 10:16 PM
Part 1= The valley of dry bones is about the resurrection. The prophecy of 2 sticks is about the Jews and the 10 scattered tribes getting together and becoming 1 stick in the hand of the Lord.

Read this scripture, because it explains the valley of dry bones, and this is the only explanation that I will accept.


Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:10-14

As you can clearly see, Ezekiel was not prophesying to the church. He was prophesying to the House of Israel. IN case you do not know, that is the 12 tribes of Israel. Preachers try to make that out to be the resurrection, when the Lord will resurrect the quick and the dead to judge all mankind. This simply is not the case. It is a prophecy to Israel, and to no one else.


PART 2= Lost tribes revived? Where? Yes in many minds the 10 lost tribes are considered Jews. In scripture, they are not. Believe the scripture.

Lost? Only the gentiles would consider the tribes that were not predominantly mentioned in the Bible as lost. In truth, the 10 tribes were never lost. Benjamin's lands were annexed to Judah, but as Paul even sites in Romans 11, the Israelites take their birthright seriously, and thus take detailed notes, including their lineage. The 10 "lost" tribes were only lost to the churches, and the rest of the world. They were not lost to any of the tribes of Israel. This shows me a lack in the understanding of the Jewish customs that survived the Diaspora, the Crusades, the European incursions, Islam, the RCC, and everything else that happened to them right along the road to this prophecy being fulfilled in 1948.

Posts like these are only possible because they have heard these things from preachers that do not know what they are talking about, spouting junk that causes even more divisions in the churches. But that's why this forum is here, to bring the light of education to the masses who need it.

Dandylionheart
Oct 19th 2007, 10:41 PM
Hi ThirdHero
Im on some small cable system and only get to hear from about 11 preachers or so. All but 1 are rapture preaching preachers. I guess its cause they would naturally make more lucre preachin what itching ears want to hear. They all preach that "valley of dry bones" is, as you say. Ive never heard any claim it pertains to a resurrection. I also never said that it was about the church. You really dont believe the 10 tribes are lost? Scattered amoung the gentiles to serve wood and stone (graven images)?

Well..i guess it doesnt really matter what we believe or think. The scriptures will come to pass.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I think Jesus will find the lost sheep of the House of Israel

ShirleyFord
Oct 20th 2007, 12:24 AM
Read this scripture, because it explains the valley of dry bones, and this is the only explanation that I will accept.


Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:10-14

As you can clearly see, Ezekiel was not prophesying to the church. He was prophesying to the House of Israel. IN case you do not know, that is the 12 tribes of Israel. Preachers try to make that out to be the resurrection, when the Lord will resurrect the quick and the dead to judge all mankind. This simply is not the case. It is a prophecy to Israel, and to no one else.



Lost? Only the gentiles would consider the tribes that were not predominantly mentioned in the Bible as lost. In truth, the 10 tribes were never lost. Benjamin's lands were annexed to Judah, but as Paul even sites in Romans 11, the Israelites take their birthright seriously, and thus take detailed notes, including their lineage. The 10 "lost" tribes were only lost to the churches, and the rest of the world. They were not lost to any of the tribes of Israel. This shows me a lack in the understanding of the Jewish customs that survived the Diaspora, the Crusades, the European incursions, Islam, the RCC, and everything else that happened to them right along the road to this prophecy being fulfilled in 1948.

Posts like these are only possible because they have heard these things from preachers that do not know what they are talking about, spouting junk that causes even more divisions in the churches. But that's why this forum is here, to bring the light of education to the masses who need it.

Jesus knew where the 10 lost tribes of Israel were and He found them.

Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


And we see Jews out of every nation under the sun on the day of Penticost living in Jerusalem.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


Shirley

Dandylionheart
Oct 20th 2007, 03:56 AM
Hi ShirlyFord
There are only 2 tribes out of the twelve which are considered Jews according to scripture. The other 10 have been scattered amoung the gentiles. The remnant of those tribes are still (for the most part) amoung the gentiles.

Zech. 8:23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The above scripture shall come to pass. Also fulfilling scripture below.

Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

But as for them dry bones. That has not happened yet. The "four winds" have not yet blown

Ezekiel 37:9-12
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. [10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Happens after the tribulation period, during the Day of the Lord. In the twinkling of an eye.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

My heart's Desire
Oct 20th 2007, 04:54 AM
B].

Happens after the tribulation period, during the Day of the Lord. In the twinkling of an eye.

Matthew 24:29-31
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

gather together his elect from the four winds,
If this then happens to be true then the Elect here is Israel, (Zech.12:10 )not the church.

Zech 12:10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced and they will mourn .........
Rev 1:7

vinsight4u8
Oct 20th 2007, 04:54 AM
Hi ShirlyFord
....Zech. 8:23
Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

The above scripture shall come to pass. Also fulfilling scripture below.

Ezekiel 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

But as for them dry bones. That has not happened yet. The "four winds" have not yet blown

Ezekiel 37:9-12
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. [10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Happens after the tribulation period, during the Day of the Lord. In the twinkling of an eye.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice the four winds part in Rev. 7 - Israel will be getting scattered at the end - so before any of the 7 trumpets can start - some of the tribes must get sealed.
God will turn His face away from her people.

But after those end of trib signs that you mentioned -----God shows His face to Israel again.
He has mercy on her land and her people before the 7th seal is opened.

vinsight4u8
Oct 20th 2007, 04:57 AM
So------would seem very odd to have mercy on her and then come at her people with the 7 trumpet time.

The two witnesses get slain during the 6th trumpet and must rise after those end of the trib signs or so.
the great earthquake - 3rd woe hour

My heart's Desire
Oct 20th 2007, 05:03 AM
My last post kinda got off the point. Here is a thought. Do you think that trodden down may mean oppressed? If so, even if Israel is back in her land, could we not consider that maybe with all the Nations oppressing her as they are today by wanting them to give up their land, could that be thought of as being trodden down by the Gentiles? hummmm. AS you can see I'm still stuck on what "trodden down by the Gentiles" means exactly.

Dandylionheart
Oct 20th 2007, 05:27 AM
gather together his elect from the four winds,
If this then happens to be true then the Elect here is Israel, (Zech.12:10 )not the church.

Zech 12:10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced and they will mourn .........
Rev 1:7

Isaiah 56:8
The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

John 10:15-16
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Dont think i should get into the law on this thread but yeah...the elect is Israel and others that that take hold the skirt. And all are HIS church, one fold, and one Shepherd. Only one way.

Dandylionheart
Oct 20th 2007, 05:35 AM
Notice the four winds part in Rev. 7 - Israel will be getting scattered at the end - so before any of the 7 trumpets can start - some of the tribes must get sealed.
God will turn His face away from her people.

But after those end of trib signs that you mentioned -----God shows His face to Israel again.
He has mercy on her land and her people before the 7th seal is opened.

Yeah vinsight4u8
i looked at most of the scriptures that speak of the 4 winds. i really cant say i understand them all or can put them together as 1 definative moment but i kinda just started recently. Takes time and seeking.

Steven3
Oct 20th 2007, 06:01 AM
Hi CWB
I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. (That includes me, though I'm not a pre-tribber or post-tribber as far as I know, and I don't believe in the popular concept of the rapture, nor do I believe that national Israel's role in prophecy has any relation (either OT or NT) to actual salvation for the majority of national Israel's population, any more than any other state.)

De 28:50 "A nation of fierce countenance" is quoted by Daniel 8:23 as referring to the (unnamed) fourth empire - that we know to be Rome. This positions Rome in De28:50 (irrespective of any possible pre-Daniel initial fulfillments), which leaves De28:64-65 referring to national Israel after AD70.

God bless
Steven

ShirleyFord
Oct 20th 2007, 06:07 AM
Hi ShirlyFord
There are only 2 tribes out of the twelve which are considered Jews according to scripture. The other 10 have been scattered amoung the gentiles. The remnant of those tribes are still (for the most part) amoung the gentiles.

How then would you explain Anna who lived in the temple in Jerusalem, Israel, in the city where all of the priests, the high priest and the highest ranking Jewish religious leaders lived?

Lk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity

She was from the tribe of Ashur and not from the tribe of Judah. (The tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah to make one tribe)

Check out the book of Ezra and Nehemiah and you will find that those who came back to Israel after the Babylonian Captivity were referred to several times as "the children of Israel" when only the tribe of Judah (with the tribe of Benjamin and part of the tribe of Levi and part of the tribe of Joseph) went into captivity.


Shirley

Dandylionheart
Oct 20th 2007, 06:24 AM
How then would you explain Anna who lived in the temple in Jerusalem, Israel, in the city where all of the priests, the high priest and the highest ranking Jewish religious leaders lived?

Lk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity

She was from the tribe of Ashur and not from the tribe of Judah. (The tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah to make one tribe)


I did say still scattered for the most part. Im fairly confident that you could find people from many of the tribes in Jerusalem even today. Im also confident that there are people who are among the gentiles from all 12 tribes which do not realize they are the remnant of the 12 tribes. Yet.

Dandylionheart
Oct 20th 2007, 06:28 AM
(The tribe of Benjamin joined with the tribe of Judah to make one tribe)
Shirley

Hi Shirley
Where exactly did you find that. Id love to take a look at it.

David Taylor
Oct 20th 2007, 01:47 PM
Read this scripture, because it explains the valley of dry bones, and this is the only explanation that I will accept.


Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken , and performed , saith the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:10-14

As you can clearly see, Ezekiel was not prophesying to the church. He was prophesying to the House of Israel.
Peter tells the house of Israel when the fulfilment occurs:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.



The New Testament explains that the land promise was extended even further, through Christ, to contain the entire world.

[I]Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."

[I]Colossians 3:24 "Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

Jesus didn't limit the land inheritance to Palestine, but rather:
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

So we know that by Abraham's seed, (Jesus Christ), is the whole world given into His hands....in complete fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.

third hero
Oct 20th 2007, 09:47 PM
A response to all those who believe that the church is Israel and that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled at Penticost.

I disagree. Surprised? I bet you weren't. What will surprise you is my explanation.

1. Ezekiel's "my spirit" phrase from God had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. This is a classic example of taking a portion of scripture out of context.

Let's examine this thought for a sec. The overall view of this prophecy is that the actual vision of the valley of dry bones is actually the visualization of the explanation that God gives Ezekiel in verses 11-12.

In the valley were bones of men. God explains in verse 11 that these dry bones are the whole house of Israel. After 70AD, Israel died. There was no nation named Israel, and those who sought to resurrect Israel were slain, the last of which happened in 135AD. After 70AD, Israel, the whole house, was dead. They were not in exile like in Ezekiel's time, for that exile was prophesied by Jeremiah to only last 70 years. Daniel recognized this and began his prayer, (Dan 10). So, if Daniel figured that out, then so did many others who studied the scriptures back then, especially since the only writings that were available wer the writings of the prophets. (See either the book of Ezra or Nehamiah). Therefore, this exile, the one in 70AD, would last almost 2000 years. If a nation is not declared dead after ceasing to exist for 2000 years, then what else would you call it?

Israel, the whole house, were as dry bones, exiled almost eternally from their own land, and without hope, since the peoples around them hated them. (For those who do not know, then only check every inquisition since the fall of Rome, and WWI and II.)

2. God told Ezekiel to prophesy to the bones and say to them,

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And (1)I will lay sinews upon you, (2)and will bring up flesh upon you, (3)and cover you with skin, and (4)put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:4-6

Notice what the Lord says. I will put breath into you and you will live. He puts it into a few steps, and the bones will become flesh, and the breath of life will enter upon them and they will live. If anyone read the rest of this vision, one would know that after Ezekiel spoke the prophecy, the bones connected, the sinew attached itself to the bones, the flesh wrapped itself around the bodies and they formed the images of men. However, the breath of life, which in the OT was called the Spirit of God (ref Genesis 2), was not in them.

When God explained to Ezekiel that He will put his spirit in them in verse 12, He was telling him that He would do exactly as He did in the vision. The Spirit was not the Holy Spirit, but the breath of life, which can only come from God. It had nothing to do with Penticost. Here is why.

1. Israel was still around. (Although Israel was ruld by Rome, it still existed until long after Penticost)
2. The Israelites had hope in the Messiah at that time. (remember, the vision said that the Israelites had NO hope)
3. Penticost did not lead the people of Israel back to her own land, for they were still in it. The Diaspora did not happen until years later.

This is why I believe that the Valley of Dry bones could refer to nothing other than the resurrection of Israel which happened in 1948. Nothing else comes close to completely fitting the entire description of the valley of dry bones.

Now for Dandylionheart.

IN the 1980's, there were Jimmy Baker, Jimmy Swagart and others who preached that the valley of dry bones were the picture of the Resurrection. Many preachers copycatted their findings, and all of them were wrong. Today's TV evangelists, with very few exceptions, all overtly false, and are not hiding their falsehood. So, today's TV preachers do not count.

ShirleyFord
Oct 21st 2007, 12:52 AM
Stephen, an Israelite and member of the first NT Church,
said that the house of Israel was the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?


And we find that only two (Joshua the son of Nun, of the tribe of Ephraim, Numbers 13:8 and Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, Numbers 13:6). of the house of Israel who came out of Egypt were allowed to set foot in the Promised land of the nation of Canaan, which became the land and nation of Israel.

The Church existed before Penticost. The nation of Israel existed before the house of Israel in Egypt ever set foot on the land of what became the nation of Israel, once the nation of Israel, the house of Israel, the true Church came into the nation of Canaan and possessed the land. So the land of the nation of Israel existed as the nation of Canaan long before it was called the nation of Israel.

Canaan was a grandson of Noah. The land of Canaan is named after him since he settled there and possessed the land and all of his descendents, the Canaanites, remained in their own land until God had Joshua and all of the tribes of Israel to drive them off of their land and take possession of it.

Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, inherited the southern half of the land of Israel, which was called Judah in the OT and Judea in the NT, and became the leading tribe of the Southern Kingdom of Israel. The tribe of Benjamin inherited the city of Jerusalem in Judah. Joshua of the tribe of Ephraim became the leading tribe of the northern half of the land of Israel, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the 10 tribes of Israel.

After Assyria took the 10 tribes of Israel into captivity, the northern half of the kingdom, Galilee had people from the tribe of Judah living there in the first century. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, so were Joseph and Mary, and Jesus grew up with them in Nazareth of Galilee.

During the Babylonian Captivity, the land didn't die or disappear. And a few Israelites were left on it, the very poorest, the sick and disabled, the elderly and the weak, plus the prophet Jeremiah.

At Penticost, we find those Jews who were spiritually dead and their bones were dry they were so dead. They came from every nation under the sun. And the Spirit of God brought them to spiritual life and 3000 of them were added to the Church that very day, when the Church was all Israel, no Gentiles.

And the Lord continue adding the household of Israel to His all Jewish Church daily at that time.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


When Israel was driven out of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the land didn't die. People still occupied the land.


Shirley

Lisadawn
Oct 21st 2007, 01:17 AM
A response to all those who believe that the church is Israel and that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled at Penticost.

I disagree. Surprised? I bet you weren't. What will surprise you is my explanation.

1. Ezekiel's "my spirit" phrase from God had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. This is a classic example of taking a portion of scripture out of context.

Let's examine this thought for a sec. The overall view of this prophecy is that the actual vision of the valley of dry bones is actually the visualization of the explanation that God gives Ezekiel in verses 11-12.

In the valley were bones of men. God explains in verse 11 that these dry bones are the whole house of Israel. After 70AD, Israel died. There was no nation named Israel, and those who sought to resurrect Israel were slain, the last of which happened in 135AD. After 70AD, Israel, the whole house, was dead. They were not in exile like in Ezekiel's time, for that exile was prophesied by Jeremiah to only last 70 years. Daniel recognized this and began his prayer, (Dan 10). So, if Daniel figured that out, then so did many others who studied the scriptures back then, especially since the only writings that were available wer the writings of the prophets. (See either the book of Ezra or Nehamiah). Therefore, this exile, the one in 70AD, would last almost 2000 years. If a nation is not declared dead after ceasing to exist for 2000 years, then what else would you call it?

Israel, the whole house, were as dry bones, exiled almost eternally from their own land, and without hope, since the peoples around them hated them. (For those who do not know, then only check every inquisition since the fall of Rome, and WWI and II.)

2. God told Ezekiel to prophesy to the bones and say to them,

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And (1)I will lay sinews upon you, (2)and will bring up flesh upon you, (3)and cover you with skin, and (4)put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:4-6

Notice what the Lord says. I will put breath into you and you will live. He puts it into a few steps, and the bones will become flesh, and the breath of life will enter upon them and they will live. If anyone read the rest of this vision, one would know that after Ezekiel spoke the prophecy, the bones connected, the sinew attached itself to the bones, the flesh wrapped itself around the bodies and they formed the images of men. However, the breath of life, which in the OT was called the Spirit of God (ref Genesis 2), was not in them.

When God explained to Ezekiel that He will put his spirit in them in verse 12, He was telling him that He would do exactly as He did in the vision. The Spirit was not the Holy Spirit, but the breath of life, which can only come from God. It had nothing to do with Penticost. Here is why.

1. Israel was still around. (Although Israel was ruld by Rome, it still existed until long after Penticost)
2. The Israelites had hope in the Messiah at that time. (remember, the vision said that the Israelites had NO hope)
3. Penticost did not lead the people of Israel back to her own land, for they were still in it. The Diaspora did not happen until years later.

This is why I believe that the Valley of Dry bones could refer to nothing other than the resurrection of Israel which happened in 1948. Nothing else comes close to completely fitting the entire description of the valley of dry bones.

Now for Dandylionheart.

IN the 1980's, there were Jimmy Baker, Jimmy Swagart and others who preached that the valley of dry bones were the picture of the Resurrection. Many preachers copycatted their findings, and all of them were wrong. Today's TV evangelists, with very few exceptions, all overtly false, and are not hiding their falsehood. So, today's TV preachers do not count.

FANTASTIC POST!!! :agree:

Israel had been scattered throughout the world. In 1948 they returned to the land. In 1967 they were able to claim Jerusalem again after about 2,500 years. (not sure about timing) Jerusalem commemorated it's 3,000 birthday in about 1995. There are believing Jews, and unbeliving Jews. Religious Jews, and Secular. I believe when it says God will put his spirit back into them that they will believe and not just be in the land.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem. It is a very dangerous time for them, but also very exciting times we are all living in.

Lisa

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 01:41 AM
...At Penticost, we find those Jews who were spiritually dead and their bones were dry they were so dead. They came from every nation under the sun. And the Spirit of God brought them to spiritual life and 3000 of them were added to the Church that very day, when the Church was all Israel, no Gentiles...Shirley
Shirley – are you saying those today who submit to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) become the “Israel of God”?

ShirleyFord
Oct 21st 2007, 03:13 AM
Shirley – are you saying those today who submit to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) become the “Israel of God”?

Hi LH,

I believe the Bible makes that very clear. God has always only had One people that He claimed as His. Beginning with Abraham, God's people were the faithful and believing of Abraham's natural seed Israel.

God made a covenant with Abraham to bring His Son through his natural seed. Abraham by faith agreed to the covenant that God made with him. God promised Abraham and then Isaac and Jacob that the Messiah that would come through their seed would take away their sins that had passed down from Adam's fall. God chose Judah, one of Jacob's natural son's of his 12 sons, the twelve tribes of Israel, to bring His Son their Messiah through.

A sign of the new covenant that God made with Abraham was circumcision. As an act of faith, Abraham circumcised himself and all the males of his household as a sign of the inward circumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

As Paul is saying here, not all of the natural seed of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, Israel, were Israel in God's eyes. Nor did circumcision of the outward flesh make them the people of God, the Israel of God. Although they remained the natural seed of Israel, they were not the people of God, His chosen. Nor did God's chosen people, Israel, cease being the natural seed of Israel. They were the remnant that God took out of the natural seed of God because of their faith in His sending His Son, their Messiah, through their natural seed.

Jesus, the Son of God, Israel's Promised Messiah put on flesh and came to Israel by way of Abraham's natural seed.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


Jesus, a true born Jew of the tribe of Judah of the household of Israel, of the natural seed of Israel, of Isaac and of Abraham.

As the natural seed of Abraham, Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day of His natural life.

Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Joseph, Jesus's earthly but not His biological father, circumcised Jesus when He was 8 days old in obedience to the Abrahamic Covenant that God commanded Abraham and for his natural seed after him.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

He also circumcised Jesus in obedience to the law that God handed down for the natural seed of Israel.

Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Jesus didn't have any natural children to continue the natural seed of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. So when He died on the cross, he had no natural heirs to pass on His inheritance to. Up until then, God's chosen people, the Israel of God, was chosen only from the natural seed of Israel. But since the cross, God chooses His people out of the natural seed of Gentiles, as well.

God wrote to the Church at Galatia which was made up of Jews and Gentiles:

Galatians 3

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Shirley

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 03:27 AM
Shirley – that’s one of the best explanations regarding this subject I have read in a long time. Thank you.

My heart's Desire
Oct 21st 2007, 05:02 AM
A response to all those who believe that the church is Israel and that Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled at Penticost.

I disagree. Surprised? I bet you weren't. What will surprise you is my explanation.

1. Ezekiel's "my spirit" phrase from God had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. This is a classic example of taking a portion of scripture out of context.

Let's examine this thought for a sec. The overall view of this prophecy is that the actual vision of the valley of dry bones is actually the visualization of the explanation that God gives Ezekiel in verses 11-12.

In the valley were bones of men. God explains in verse 11 that these dry bones are the whole house of Israel. After 70AD, Israel died. There was no nation named Israel, and those who sought to resurrect Israel were slain, the last of which happened in 135AD. After 70AD, Israel, the whole house, was dead. They were not in exile like in Ezekiel's time, for that exile was prophesied by Jeremiah to only last 70 years. Daniel recognized this and began his prayer, (Dan 10). So, if Daniel figured that out, then so did many others who studied the scriptures back then, especially since the only writings that were available wer the writings of the prophets. (See either the book of Ezra or Nehamiah). Therefore, this exile, the one in 70AD, would last almost 2000 years. If a nation is not declared dead after ceasing to exist for 2000 years, then what else would you call it?

Israel, the whole house, were as dry bones, exiled almost eternally from their own land, and without hope, since the peoples around them hated them. (For those who do not know, then only check every inquisition since the fall of Rome, and WWI and II.)

2. God told Ezekiel to prophesy to the bones and say to them,

Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And (1)I will lay sinews upon you, (2)and will bring up flesh upon you, (3)and cover you with skin, and (4)put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. -Ezekiel 37:4-6

Notice what the Lord says. I will put breath into you and you will live. He puts it into a few steps, and the bones will become flesh, and the breath of life will enter upon them and they will live. If anyone read the rest of this vision, one would know that after Ezekiel spoke the prophecy, the bones connected, the sinew attached itself to the bones, the flesh wrapped itself around the bodies and they formed the images of men. However, the breath of life, which in the OT was called the Spirit of God (ref Genesis 2), was not in them.

When God explained to Ezekiel that He will put his spirit in them in verse 12, He was telling him that He would do exactly as He did in the vision. The Spirit was not the Holy Spirit, but the breath of life, which can only come from God. It had nothing to do with Penticost. Here is why.

1. Israel was still around. (Although Israel was ruld by Rome, it still existed until long after Penticost)
2. The Israelites had hope in the Messiah at that time. (remember, the vision said that the Israelites had NO hope)
3. Penticost did not lead the people of Israel back to her own land, for they were still in it. The Diaspora did not happen until years later.

This is why I believe that the Valley of Dry bones could refer to nothing other than the resurrection of Israel which happened in 1948. Nothing else comes close to completely fitting the entire description of the valley of dry bones.

Now for Dandylionheart.

IN the 1980's, there were Jimmy Baker, Jimmy Swagart and others who preached that the valley of dry bones were the picture of the Resurrection. Many preachers copycatted their findings, and all of them were wrong. Today's TV evangelists, with very few exceptions, all overtly false, and are not hiding their falsehood. So, today's TV preachers do not count.
I also pretty much believe that 1948 was what I believe is the beginning of Israel being on their land as prophecied and I believe that it is ongoing. I know much of Israel is considered secular but one day they will return to their God as they have in the past. There are just too many promises to Israel in the O.T for God to have been finished with them as a people and a Nation. Though I believe that God is calling out all people in this day and time, those who will believe to make up the Church, I do not think that I will ever believe that the church has replaced Israel in God's promise and blessing. I believe they will return. In the end though I believe it results in the same plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ, just as it began when Abraham simply believed God in faith. He obeyed by believing what God told him.
I may not be able to properly "prove" it but in the O.T there are just too many scriptures that tell Israel "in that day" "in the time of the end" "at the day" "the day of the Lord" that they do have a role to play in the end time scenario. Their promises are eternal and unending. How long is eternal? I think it speaks for itself.

ShirleyFord
Oct 21st 2007, 06:09 AM
Though I believe that God is calling out all people in this day and time, those who will believe to make up the Church, I do not think that I will ever believe that the church has replaced Israel in God's promise and blessing. I believe they will return. In the end though I believe it results in the same plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ, just as it began when Abraham simply believed God in faith. He obeyed by believing what God told him.


There is and always has been and ever shall be only One people of God.

There is and always has been and ever shall be only One plan of Salvation to become the One people of God.

No one has replaced those who rejected God, rejected His word and rejected His Son. They are in their same hopeless lost spiritual condition without a Savior. Gentiles in this condition don't replace Jews in this condition. Both are in the same pitiful hopeless lost condtion with no hope and an eternity suffering the flames of lake of fire.

Many, many multitudes as the sands of the sea who were in that same hopeless spiritual condition of spiritual death, God has pulled them out of the mirey pits of hell of spiritual death and given them life and hope by the grace of Jesus Christ through faith, He saved them and chose them as His elect One people of God, whether they were ethnic Jews or ethnic Gentiles.

God does not now or ever has or ever will have two different people that He calls His, the Church and unbelieving, Christ-rejecting Israel. How can those in Christ replace those not in Christ?

Jesus said:

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Peter said:

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Paul said:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



Shirley

Steven3
Oct 21st 2007, 06:16 AM
Hi Shirley :)
Stephen, an Israelite and member of the first NT Church, said that the house of Israel was the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness

No one would doubt that Acts7 is heavy with typology but I think you're reading too much into the Greek word ekklesia, it only means 'assembly' - in the NT it is variously used for churches, a rioting Greek mob, pagan ekklesiai, and for the OT congregation.

Using ekklesia, the common LXX word for congregation, doesn't mean that Stephen didn't share Paul's hope of the "rejected" branch being "accepted" and "grafted back in", nor does it mean that Jesus' "O Jerusalem ...until you say blessed" prophecy said after Palm Sunday was fulfilled in AD70 or any time since, nor does it mean that Stephen didn't share Daniel's identifcation of Rome as the nation of "fierce countenance" before the "scattering" and "gathering" of De28:50-60.

Also, more generally, it's one thing to see NT Jews (like Paul, Stephen, Peter, John) making typological reference from physical Israel to spiritual Israel, that's legitimate, but it's something else entirely to say that therefore after the tearing of the veil in temple, (or Pentecost, or AD70 etc.) therefore this physical Israel, in God's eyes, has ceased to exist or ceased to have any role in God's witness. If that was the case God should have let them just perish or be absorbed sometime during the last 19 Centuries of Christian persecution. Other nations have vanished - Phoenecians, Hittites, Manchurians, etc. If God really "rules in the kingdoms of men and gives them to whom he pleases" per Daniel, then what was God playing at giving Israel to Ben Gurion?

God bless
Steven

Lisadawn
Oct 21st 2007, 04:01 PM
If that was the case God should have let them just perish or be absorbed sometime during the last 19 Centuries of Christian persecution. Other nations have vanished - Phoenecians, Hittites, Manchurians, etc. If God really "rules in the kingdoms of men and gives them to whom he pleases" per Daniel, then what was God playing at giving Israel to Ben Gurion?

God bless
Steven

AMEN, Great Post!!!!

Lisa

third hero
Oct 21st 2007, 04:17 PM
Stephen, an Israelite and member of the first NT Church,
said that the house of Israel was the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?


And we find that only two (Joshua the son of Nun, of the tribe of Ephraim, Numbers 13:8 and Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, Numbers 13:6). of the house of Israel who came out of Egypt were allowed to set foot in the Promised land of the nation of Canaan, which became the land and nation of Israel.

The Church existed before Penticost. The nation of Israel existed before the house of Israel in Egypt ever set foot on the land of what became the nation of Israel, once the nation of Israel, the house of Israel, the true Church came into the nation of Canaan and possessed the land. So the land of the nation of Israel existed as the nation of Canaan long before it was called the nation of Israel.

Canaan was a grandson of Noah. The land of Canaan is named after him since he settled there and possessed the land and all of his descendents, the Canaanites, remained in their own land until God had Joshua and all of the tribes of Israel to drive them off of their land and take possession of it.

Caleb, of the tribe of Judah, inherited the southern half of the land of Israel, which was called Judah in the OT and Judea in the NT, and became the leading tribe of the Southern Kingdom of Israel. The tribe of Benjamin inherited the city of Jerusalem in Judah. Joshua of the tribe of Ephraim became the leading tribe of the northern half of the land of Israel, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the 10 tribes of Israel.

After Assyria took the 10 tribes of Israel into captivity, the northern half of the kingdom, Galilee had people from the tribe of Judah living there in the first century. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, so were Joseph and Mary, and Jesus grew up with them in Nazareth of Galilee.

During the Babylonian Captivity, the land didn't die or disappear. And a few Israelites were left on it, the very poorest, the sick and disabled, the elderly and the weak, plus the prophet Jeremiah.

At Penticost, we find those Jews who were spiritually dead and their bones were dry they were so dead. They came from every nation under the sun. And the Spirit of God brought them to spiritual life and 3000 of them were added to the Church that very day, when the Church was all Israel, no Gentiles.

And the Lord continue adding the household of Israel to His all Jewish Church daily at that time.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


When Israel was driven out of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the land didn't die. People still occupied the land.


Shirley

Again, various quotations taken completely out of context. Stephen was giving his accusers a history lesson. He did not equate Penticost to Ezekiel 37. The context is totally out of whack!

The Israelites lost their nation, Israel ceased to exist as a nation. The people of Israel went back to exile, an exile that lasted almost 2000 years. To say that the people still dwelled in the land, when the Gentile Christians and Muslims saw to it that there was no significant presence of Israelites in the Palestinian Territories for those last 2000 years is disingenuous. Israel ceased to be a nation at 70AD. They were resurrected as a nation at 1948. Whether you want to believe that or not is irrelevant. This is what happened.

As far as the church is concerned, it never existed before Penticost. Jesus did not walk the earth at Sinai. The people of Israel was not the church.

This seems to me that the same false doctrine about God replacing Israel with the church is what is propelling this debate. I say again, Paul knew the state of Israel, and he outlined it in Romans 11. It is t he replacement people thaqt refuse to accept what Paul wrote. They try to have all of Romans connect in a way that not even the original author intended it to.

1948 disproved the whole theory that God replaced Israel with the church. Israel is still Israel, and God still has a plan for Israel. Israel will annex itself with the church, and God will be the only one who can make that happen. The RCC tried and failed. The Orthodox tried and failed. The Protestants tried and failed. For the most part, none of the believers iof the past could undo what God had done, which Paul again outlined in Romans 11. The blinders will be removed, and the blinded Israelites will see the truth, and will be set free, just like the rest of us. I can not reiterate this enough, God has not replaced Israel with the church.

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 05:41 PM
...1948 disproved the whole theory that God replaced Israel with the church. Israel is still Israel, and God still has a plan for Israel. Israel will annex itself with the church, and God will be the only one who can make that happen. The RCC tried and failed. The Orthodox tried and failed. The Protestants tried and failed. For the most part, none of the believers iof the past could undo what God had done, which Paul again outlined in Romans 11. The blinders will be removed, and the blinded Israelites will see the truth, and will be set free, just like the rest of us. I can not reiterate this enough, God has not replaced Israel with the church.
In Matthew 21 Jesus outlines the rejection by the Jews, first of the prophets sent by God, and finally the rejection of their Messiah. Jesus proclaimed this prophetic truth - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (verse 43). The privileged relationship between the nation of Israel and God was ended at the Cross. The only “hope” for Israel today is in the same hope given to all mankind - the cross of Jesus Christ, the power of God to save both Jew and Gentile. Those who are saved by the blood of Christ are added to God’s “holy nation” (the church of God)…
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people…Once you were no people but now you are God’s people” 1 Peter 2:9-10

Lisadawn
Oct 21st 2007, 06:11 PM
In Matthew 21 Jesus outlines the rejection by the Jews, first of the prophets sent by God, and finally the rejection of their Messiah. Jesus proclaimed this prophetic truth - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (verse 43). The privileged relationship between the nation of Israel and God was ended at the Cross. The only “hope” for Israel today is in the same hope given to all mankind - the cross of Jesus Christ, the power of God to save both Jew and Gentile. Those who are saved by the blood of Christ are added to God’s “holy nation” (the church of God)…
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people…Once you were no people but now you are God’s people” 1 Peter 2:9-10

This is true in that the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah and Savior. They were hailing him as king on Palm Sunday only to be screaming "Crucify him!" a week later. However, the first Christians were also Jews. There were many believing Jews, like Peter and Paul. The early church was made up of Jews and then Gentiles. Because of the Jews rejection of the Messiah salvation was open to everyone. This applies to salvation of individuals. God saves everyone the same regardless the linage.

The Jews as a people and a nation have never been forgotten by God. God still has a plan for them. They are still his chosen people, the apple of his eye. We are living in a parenthesis in history called the age of grace or the church age. After that, there are 7 years left when God will deal with the nation of Israel. One third of them will be saved when they recognize the one whom they have pierced.

Lisa

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 07:05 PM
This is true in that the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah and Savior. They were hailing him as king on Palm Sunday only to be screaming "Crucify him!" a week later. However, the first Christians were also Jews. There were many believing Jews, like Peter and Paul. The early church was made up of Jews and then Gentiles. Because of the Jews rejection of the Messiah salvation was open to everyone. This applies to salvation of individuals. God saves everyone the same regardless the linage.

The Jews as a people and a nation have never been forgotten by God. God still has a plan for them. They are still his chosen people, the apple of his eye. We are living in a parenthesis in history called the age of grace or the church age. After that, there are 7 years left when God will deal with the nation of Israel. One third of them will be saved when they recognize the one whom they have pierced.

Lisa
I don’t think anyone is suggesting the Jews have been forgotten by God – they certainly have not been. I would however disagree with the erroneous Dispensational view that the church of God was some unforeseen “parenthesis” in God’s plan for Israel – this concept is not supported by the Bible. There is no future time when the distinctions between Jew and Gentile will be reestablished; there is no future time when the old Mosaic system with its Levitical priesthood and bloody animal sacrifices for sin will be resurrected. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross is the final sacrifice, "once and for all".

ShirleyFord
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:04 AM
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Here it is saying that it is God who will take the children of Israel and bring them into their own land. Was what happened in 1948 something God did or was it something man did?


CWB, this rabbi would agree with you:

Rabbi E. Schwartz of the Friends of Jerusalem (May 1988) says “only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile. The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are untainted by Zionism. Even if all claims to Palestine were surrendered, we would be forbidden to accept it.”

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:48 AM
Hi Shirley
Rabbi E. Schwartz of the Friends of Jerusalem (May 1988) says “only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile. The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are untainted by Zionism. Even if all claims to Palestine were surrendered, we would be forbidden to accept it.”

Clearly anti-Israel Jews, both ultra-orthodox and ultra-leftwing, are an element in Jewish diversity as much as anti-USA Americans, both ultraright and ultraleft are an element in the USA. Though I'm not sure if American Neturei Karta (above) is extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing. But either way Mr Schwartz is not a Biblical prophet nor inspired by God, and his view contradicts with the prophet Daniel's that "God rules in the kingdom of men and gives them to whom he pleases". It also contradicts with Deuteronomy 28 post-AD, Christ's "O Jerusalem", and Paul's "will be grafted back in" prophecies, among others.

There's a tendancy to extreme views on the church vs. Israel when we talk of "dispensationalism" (?), as if it's a yes/no thing between Israel and the church - God is more subtle than that. Some of God's activities - salvation, the Gospel preached to Abraham, the greater promises to Abraham, continue in the church, but other of God's activities - witness through prophecy, continue through Israel. It doesn't have to be an either/or all-or-nothing issue. God isn't as narrow as we are.

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:54 AM
Hi Losthorizon :)
I don’t think anyone is suggesting the Jews have been forgotten by God – they certainly have not been.But we're talking about a relative position to other nations. Isn't it the case that many Christians, perhaps including some on this thread, believe that the Jews (national Israel) are no more significant in God's prophecy and purpose than, say, Cuba? For example yourself, do you see modern Israel as being any more remembered by God than any other country?
God bless
Steven

Mograce2U
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:21 AM
Hi Shirley
...
There's a tendancy to extreme views on the church vs. Israel when we talk of "dispensationalism" (?), as if it's a yes/no thing between Israel and the church - God is more subtle than that. Some of God's activities - salvation, the Gospel preached to Abraham, the greater promises to Abraham, continue in the church, but other of God's activities - witness through prophecy, continue through Israel. It doesn't have to be an either/or all-or-nothing issue. God isn't as narrow as we are.That would be great if the prophecies didn't predict a gathering to the land and a restoration to faith as its purpose. Is it not possible that we are reading the rise of Israel as a nation wrong? If God has never left nor forsaken her then why is she still in apostacy?

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:39 AM
Hi Mograce2U
That would be great if the prophecies didn't predict a gathering to the land and a restoration to faith as its purpose. Is it not possible that we are reading the rise of Israel as a nation wrong? If God has never left nor forsaken her then why is she still in apostacy?

But that's God's repeated point to Jeremiah, Hosea and so on; Israel were always in apostacy. With the exception of brief highpoints under Moses, David, the young Solomon, Hezekiah, Josiah, Nehemiah, when were Israel not in apostacy? When were they not worshipping Ashtoreth and Baal? When were their sacrifices to Yahweh not "a stench" in his nostrils?

Clearly the promises to Abraham have passed, per Gal 3, to those baptised into Christ. But the promises always operated on a dual level - a physical seed (Isaac) and a spiritual seed (Christ), a physical descendancy (Arabs and Jews) and a spiritual seed (believers).

We're trying to force God into operating on one level when the OT and NT allow God to operate on different levels simultaneously.

And it still doesn't explain why Christians failed to exterminate or forcibly convert Jews during 19 centuries.
God bless
Steven

Mograce2U
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:20 AM
Hi Mograce2U

But that's God's repeated point to Jeremiah, Hosea and so on; Israel were always in apostacy. With the exception of brief highpoints under Moses, David, the young Solomon, Hezekiah, Josiah, Nehemiah, when were Israel not in apostacy? When were they not worshipping Ashtoreth and Baal? When were their sacrifices to Yahweh not "a stench" in his nostrils?

Clearly the promises to Abraham have passed, per Gal 3, to those baptised into Christ. But the promises always operated on a dual level - a physical seed (Isaac) and a spiritual seed (Christ), a physical descendancy (Arabs and Jews) and a spiritual seed (believers).

We're trying to force God into operating on one level when the OT and NT allow God to operate on different levels simultaneously.

And it still doesn't explain why Christians failed to exterminate or forcibly convert Jews during 19 centuries.These 2 points should be addressed and I don't know that I am the one to do it.

The physical nation of Israel was chosen for a spiritual purpose. That purpose was to bring Messiah into the world. Israel has fulfilled their course to which God appointed them. Abraham's Seed is the One promised to take away the penalty for sin in Adam. God was merciful to their sin to bring this to pass despite their continual falling into unbelief. For every failing, God worked repentance and restored them. Abraham was called out from among the Gentile nations but now Israel is back among them because they forsook the Lord. Now that Christ has come there is no need to restore them as an elect nation again since their election has served its purpose.

When have Christians ever been able to convert any nation to the Lord? The command we have been given is to make disciples. Only individuals can come to repentance and faith. A remnant in Israel however, did receive their Messiah when He came, but the nation as a whole rejected Him - and suffered judgment as a result. This is what scattered them back into the nations without a testimony for the Lord. But it was the Christians who were scattered by persecution that became the witness to the nations where they went - whereas Israel ceased to be this witness for God. The chosen status that Israel once enjoyed was passed to a new nation who would bring forth the fruits of the kingdom.

The fact that the new testament church was first established in Israel is proof that the promise has been fulfilled. There remains no other promise for the nation as a whole who remains in apostacy and rejects Jesus as Lord. All of the promises that they were ever given them have been fulfilled in Christ and He holds them secure for us. Without Him, they have no hope. Christ is the only hope for the world or for Israel.

The Father dwells in the Son and without the Son, you cannot have the Father either. It is not possible to worship the Father unless you do so thru the Son. Yet there are some who seem to think this is possible. Just like Muslims who think they are worshipping God thru Allah. It is not possible - they have missed the mark if they do not look to Jesus. Only those who have the Son have the Father too.

It is the testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). And ethnic Israel does not have that testimony.

My heart's Desire
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:12 AM
It is the testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). And ethnic Israel does not have that testimony.

But...that does not mean that one day they will not. God gave them promises of Land and other blessings that are eternal and God's promises cannot be revoked! Was one of the promises of a National earthly homeland promised to Christians as it is to Israel?

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:14 AM
Hi Mograce2U
When have Christians ever been able to convert any nation to the Lord?All of Europe, most of sub-Saharan Africa, most of native Americans, North Central and South America, most of the Russias, all of Philippines, all of Maoris and many Pacific Islanders. In contrast even at our most 'persuasive', such as Torquemada and Ferdinand & Isabella or Spain in 1492, the majority of Jews have preferred death, exile or covert worship of YHWH to conversion by Christians.

Besides, the point is that there is no broken-off olive branch in any other nation - because God never made a national covenant with any other nation.


The chosen status that Israel once enjoyed was passed to a new nation who would bring forth the fruits of the kingdom. Except that the 'Kingdom of God' isn't a nation. You're also perhaps assuming that the 'Kingdom of God' before was national Israel, but it wasn't - twice in the OT Israel is called 'the Kingdom of YHWH', true, but the 'Kingdom of God' is a spiritual-and-eschatological concept from its first use in Matt6:33 onwards.


The fact that the new testament church was first established in Israel is proof that the promise has been fulfilled.It's proof that part of the promises to Eve, Abraham, and David have been fulfilled, yes. But the specific kingdom promise given to David in IISam2:7 is only partly fulfilled by the church. Which is why "David" is listed in the AD60 roll call of Heb11:39 as one of those who "did not receive what was promised", and still had not received it in AD60, since David was dead in AD60, and not in heaven Acts2:34.
There remains no other promise for the nation as a whole who remains in apostacy and rejects Jesus as Lord. Just assuming that Matt23:39, Ro11, etc didn't exist and that 2Sam2:7 etc were all totally fulfilled in all aspects, then we'd still have to assume that Christ must come back to exterminate national Israel before they repent, but the assumption is not true if Christ does allow time for events before his coming which lead to repentance. But in fact there is a promise beyond 2Sam2:7, Christ made a promise "O Jerusalem ..until you say" after Palm Sunday Matt23:39. This "O Jerusalem" promise has been a thorn in the flesh of Christians from Augustine to Luther and on to today, but Christ still made it.
God bless
Steven

Mograce2U
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:28 PM
Hi Mograce2UAll of Europe, most of sub-Saharan Africa, most of native Americans, North Central and South America, most of the Russias, all of Philippines, all of Maoris and many Pacific Islanders. In contrast even at our most 'persuasive', such as Torquemada and Ferdinand & Isabella or Spain in 1492, the majority of Jews have preferred death, exile or covert worship of YHWH to conversion by Christians.

Yes the kingdom has spread thru out the world as Jesus predicted. But Israel remains stiffnecked and unbelieving. Yet the remnant did receive the promise and the rest deemed themselves unworthy of everlasting life.

Besides, the point is that there is no broken-off olive branch in any other nation - because God never made a national covenant with any other nation.

Jesus confirmed the new covenant with Israel with signs and wonders and the word of God. This was His testimony to them. Those obviously who reject this covenant are not a part of it. It is not because it was not offered to them - nor still is.

Except that the 'Kingdom of God' isn't a nation. You're also perhaps assuming that the 'Kingdom of God' before was national Israel, but it wasn't - twice in the OT Israel is called 'the Kingdom of YHWH', true, but the 'Kingdom of God' is a spiritual-and-eschatological concept from its first use in Matt6:33 onwards.

First the natural then the spiritual is a rule I find applies to the patterns found in scripture. Israel as a nation was the kingdom of God - it was however a kingdom they were not able to hold onto by faith. Jesus has received that kingdom which is spiritual and thus is now a greater reality and kingdom hope than the earthly could ever have been. The promised inheritance is now securely held in His hands. And we must first enter it spiritually to have a part in this hope at His return. Many nations will have a part in that kingdom - just as was promised to Abraham.

It's proof that part of the promises to Eve, Abraham, and David have been fulfilled, yes. But the specific kingdom promise given to David in IISam2:7 is only partly fulfilled by the church. Which is why "David" is listed in the AD60 roll call of Heb11:39 as one of those who "did not receive what was promised", and still had not received it in AD60, since David was dead in AD60, and not in heaven Acts2:34.Just assuming that Matt23:39, Ro11, etc didn't exist and that 2Sam2:7 etc were all totally fulfilled in all aspects, then we'd still have to assume that Christ must come back to exterminate national Israel before they repent, but the assumption is not true if Christ does allow time for events before his coming which lead to repentance. But in fact there is a promise beyond 2Sam2:7, Christ made a promise "O Jerusalem ..until you say" after Palm Sunday Matt23:39. This "O Jerusalem" promise has been a thorn in the flesh of Christians from Augustine to Luther and on to today, but Christ still made it.

In 60 AD it is quite possible that neither David nor any other dead OT saint was yet in heaven. Many things were still being accomplished during that last 40 year generation which saw the arrival of Messiah and the end of Judaism. When the fullness of the Gentiles came in, I do believe the saints were raised and are now in the presence of the Lord. Revelation too shows a split with a 2nd group arriving after the 1st group waits a little while for vengeance to be dealt out.

(Mat 23:38-39 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. {39} For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Nobody will see Jesus who does not make this confession of faith in Him. The unbelieving in Israel prefer to hope in a temple made with hands (an idol) rather than make this confession. The new covenant however, is still available for any who will look to the cross and believe what Moses and the prophets and David in the Psalms said about the Hope of Israel.

As for Jesus coming back to destroy Jerusalem (again), that will be taken care of when the fire falls from heaven and the whole world is swept away by it.

David Taylor
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:47 PM
Isn't it the case that many Christians, perhaps including some on this thread, believe that the Jews (national Israel) are no more significant in God's prophecy and purpose than, say, Cuba? For example yourself, do you see modern Israel as being any more remembered by God than any other country?

I personally, believe that God is as equally concerned with every human being.

Prior to Christ's advent, God was specifically concerned with Israel at a nationalistic level, because it was through them that the Messiah was prophesied to come.

Once Christ came, however, I see God's focus turned to all humankind via the Gospel of Christ at an individual level.

A Cuban doesn't have any more significance than an Israeli; however, it is the same otherwise too....an Israeli doesn't have more significance to God than a Cuban either. God is concerned with them both equally.

Acts 17:30 "but now commandeth all men every where to repent"

Acts 26:20 "and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God"

David Taylor
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:54 PM
But...that does not mean that one day they will not.
Jews, just like Gentiles, are presently in the process of repentance and testimony of Jesus Christ.

Have have, are, and will continue to do so until Christ returns. There is no difference based on race.



God gave them promises of Land and other blessings that are eternal and God's promises cannot be revoked!

And all Eternal promises are found fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the eternal one to whom they were made.

Jesus is the eternal fulfillment of the land. Jesus is the eternal fulfillment only; because if we look for a natural fulfillment of land outside of Jesus, that fulfillment has already failed and shown itself to not be eternal. Had the eternal promise meant natural land and not Jesus, then Abraham and his descendants would have never lost possession of the natural land.

But Abraham looked for a city and country from above, whose maker is God. Abraham knew that Jesus, not dirt and racial pedigrees, is where the eternal promises find their fulfillment.






Was one of the promises of a National earthly homeland promised to Christians as it is to Israel?

To the faithful, the eternal homeland is with Jesus Christ.
To the unfaithful, the eternal homeland is with the Devil and His angels.

Race and birthdate play not part in decided which eternal homeland is received.

ShirleyFord
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:46 PM
It's proof that part of the promises to Eve, Abraham, and David have been fulfilled, yes. But the specific kingdom promise given to David in IISam2:7 is only partly fulfilled by the church. Which is why "David" is listed in the AD60 roll call of Heb11:39 as one of those who "did not receive what was promised", and still had not received it in AD60, since David was dead in AD60, and not in heaven Acts2:34.

The specific kingdom was the kingdom of Christ, new Jerusalem, the heavenly city.


Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


You should read v. 40 of Hebrews 11 and you will find out the promise that the OT saints didn't receive nor the NT saints nor us who are in Christ, although they, as we do today, saw it by faith:


Heb 11:40 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The redemption of our bodies as we see in Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 15.

Peter declares in Acts 2:29-36

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Jesus is the only one who has received an immortal glorified body and has ascended bodily into heaven. David's body is physically dead still buried in the grave. But he is very much alive spiritually with Jesus.

Shirley

Mograce2U
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:12 PM
Here is the part that has been fulfilled which we need to consider about the spiritual nature of the kingdom revealed in the OT:

Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Where is that place of safety that Jerusalem was lifted up to? The place from which the New Jerusalem will come down? The place where she is safely inhabited by all the saints? Could it be heaven?

(Gal 4:25-26 KJV) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. {26} But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

third hero
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:09 PM
I also pretty much believe that 1948 was what I believe is the beginning of Israel being on their land as prophecied and I believe that it is ongoing. I know much of Israel is considered secular but one day they will return to their God as they have in the past. There are just too many promises to Israel in the O.T for God to have been finished with them as a people and a Nation. Though I believe that God is calling out all people in this day and time, those who will believe to make up the Church, I do not think that I will ever believe that the church has replaced Israel in God's promise and blessing. I believe they will return. In the end though I believe it results in the same plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ, just as it began when Abraham simply believed God in faith. He obeyed by believing what God told him.
I may not be able to properly "prove" it but in the O.T there are just too many scriptures that tell Israel "in that day" "in the time of the end" "at the day" "the day of the Lord" that they do have a role to play in the end time scenario. Their promises are eternal and unending. How long is eternal? I think it speaks for itself.

In truth, there is another part to Ezekiel 37. The last part is that "David", God's servant, (which we all know is Lord Jesus), will rule over them. I, like you, believe that before Christ returns, Israel will be part of the promise once again, and not just the election, but all of them.


Here is my evidence. According to Revelation, starting at chapter 9, God begins his full-force offensive against the blindness that the rest of Israel currently have. He sends to them tewo prophets who will act exactly like the prophets of old, coming with signs and wonders. Their purpose is two fold.

1. To warn Israel of what is coming. (Hence the reason why their testimony last only 42 months).

2. To point out to not only Israel, but the rest of the world, that Jesus is the only way, that Rabbinism is the false Judaism, and that Israel will repent. (Notice that I said, will, and not must).

The one who kills them will be the catalyst of Israel's repentence.

I have figured that this testimony of the two lampstands will coincide with the covenant that is confirmed by the one who will become the abomination that causes desolation. (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15-19). Anyone who is not the beast from the abyss will die if they intend on harming them. (Revelation 11). Israel wil be the main benefactor of the covenant with many, which is the reason why that prophecy was found in the OT. Once the two prophets die, the one who killed them will betray Israel and defile the temple which they will build. (Matthew 24:15-21, 2 Thes 2:3-4, Revelation 12, Zechariah 14:1-5). When the beast launches his offensive against Israel, the 144,000 will appear on the Mount of Olives, and will sing a song that only they know, and the earth will open her mouth, and God will split the Mount of Olives. (Zechariah 14:5, Matthew 24:16, Revelation 12:16, 14:1-5). When this happens, the people will run to their salvation, and will repent of their, and their forefathers' sins. (Zech 12:7, 10-14, Rev 12:6, Romans 11:25-27) This is the moment that Israel will fully come to the Lord.

Go ahead and check out the references that I have displayed, and see for yourself that God has not forgotten about Israel. They will eventually get it. I just hope that many of them get it before the abomination happens, because a lot of Israelites will die when that happens.

David Taylor
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:37 PM
Go ahead and check out the references that I have displayed, and see for yourself that God has not forgotten about Israel. They will eventually get it.

Noone has forgotten about Israel. They have been getting it, and they are getting and they will continue to get it, just like all of their brethren around the globe with them!

"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people"


Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."


Noone is left out or forgotten.

John146
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:00 PM
This is true in that the Jews rejected Christ as the Messiah and Savior. They were hailing him as king on Palm Sunday only to be screaming "Crucify him!" a week later. However, the first Christians were also Jews. There were many believing Jews, like Peter and Paul. The early church was made up of Jews and then Gentiles. Because of the Jews rejection of the Messiah salvation was open to everyone. This applies to salvation of individuals. God saves everyone the same regardless the linage.

The Jews as a people and a nation have never been forgotten by God. God still has a plan for them. They are still his chosen people, the apple of his eye. We are living in a parenthesis in history called the age of grace or the church age. After that, there are 7 years left when God will deal with the nation of Israel. One third of them will be saved when they recognize the one whom they have pierced.

Lisa

God's chosen people, His children, are those who put their faith in Christ whether they are Jew or Gentile. A person's nationality does not make him/her one of God's chosen people. The following two passages clearly illustrate this:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Romans 9:6-8

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:26 PM
Hi Losthorizon :) But we're talking about a relative position to other nations. Isn't it the case that many Christians, perhaps including some on this thread, believe that the Jews (national Israel) are no more significant in God's prophecy and purpose than, say, Cuba? For example yourself, do you see modern Israel as being any more remembered by God than any other country?
God bless
Steven
I will go back again to the words of our Lord to the Jewish nation - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” There is no land promise yet pending for the Hebrew people including those Jews who reside in the secular nation of Israel. The Jews forfeited their deed to the “holy land” because of their rebellion against the God of Abraham.

God remembers the physical Jew today regardless of where they reside just as He does all of humankind and the only hope for the Jew today is the same hope I have as a Gentile – the “once for all time” sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God’s people today are those whom He has added to the Lord’s church – His “holy nation” (Acts 2:47). :)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28)

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:19 AM
I will go back again to the words of our Lord to the Jewish nation - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” There is no land promise yet pending for the Hebrew people including those Jews who reside in the secular nation of Israel. The Jews forfeited their deed to the “holy land” because of their rebellion against the God of Abraham.



God remembers the physical Jew today regardless of where they reside just as He does all of humankind and the only hope for the Jew today is the same hope I have as a Gentile – the “once for all time” sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God’s people today are those whom He has added to the Lord’s church – His “holy nation” (Acts 2:47). :)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28)This seems to be the verse quoted most often regarding this issue of ethnic Israel. Makes you wonder why people struggle so hard to believe it means what it says doesn't it? God's plan to save Israel was set in motion 2,000 years ago - yea, even from before the foundation of the world. Why the insistence to consider a people given over to unbelief should be the foundation for our hope in Christ's return is an enigma.

I do hope they will come to faith beforehand, but to elevate the ungodly in their unbelief is like giving favored nation status to China with their abortion mentality. God isn't going to pass over the sins of anyone who has not received His forgiveness. Those who reject grace stand condemned already. This ought to make us fervent for their salvation instead of trying to justify their sin and hold out a hope for them that they do not have because they claim to be sons of Abraham. Without faith in Christ they are of their father the devil. Only the gospel can snatch them out of his hands and then they too will have the adoption they were chosen for. THEN they will be the apple of His eye once again.

My heart's Desire
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:42 AM
I'm wondering then that if 1948 was not prophecy fulfilled then is it just a odd coincidence that Israel is back in their land again just as all the other times they were exiled and brought back? Do you think it coincidence that they have survived even after people have set out to destroy them as a race? If God's hand is NOT in it, what do you think their chances of being back in the land are? After all, there are peoples in the O.T. who no longer remain like the Hittites. If prophecy has not been fulfilled why then is Jerusalem becoming a cup that causes reeling to all people around it( Zechariah 12 :2,3 ), as it seems to be today? Why has it become a nation that all the nations of the earth want to come against?
If Israel as a nation is not fulfillment of Prophecy then why does the Lord return to the Mount of Olives as in Zech. 14:4, after fighting against the nations who came against Jerusalem? Why not just return anywhere? Why in Israel if they are not to be a Nation in prophecy again?

losthorizon
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:55 PM
My heart’s Desire
I'm wondering then that if 1948 was not prophecy fulfilled then is it just a odd coincidence that Israel is back in their land again just as all the other times they were exiled and brought back?
I do not think there are many “odd coincidences” in an historical sense – God most certainly is concerned with the affairs of men and the rise and fall of nations. The fact that there exists today the secular nation of Israel is part of God’s providence just as the existence of the USA and Great Britain are part of His will. These facts do not require any kind of “prophecy fulfilled” scenario, i.e., the year 1948 is not “prophecy fulfilled” but it is part of God’s historical plan.


My heart’s Desire
Do you think it coincidence that they have survived even after people have set out to destroy them as a race? If God's hand is NOT in it, what do you think their chances of being back in the land are? After all, there are peoples in the O.T. who no longer remain like the Hittites.
Again – God is concerned with the affairs of men – He is concerned about all His creation including the physical Jews. The Egyptians are still a people in their ancestral lands – why – because it is part of God’s will.


My heart’s Desire
If Israel as a nation is not fulfillment of Prophecy then why does the Lord return to the Mount of Olives as in Zech. 14:4, after fighting against the nations who came against Jerusalem? Why not just return anywhere? Why in Israel if they are not to be a Nation in prophecy again?
Not all biblical scholars consider Zech. 14:4 to be “unfulfilled prophecy” and not everyone buys into the premillennial/dispensational school of eschatology.

Lisadawn
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:49 PM
I'm wondering then that if 1948 was not prophecy fulfilled then is it just a odd coincidence that Israel is back in their land again just as all the other times they were exiled and brought back? Do you think it coincidence that they have survived even after people have set out to destroy them as a race? If God's hand is NOT in it, what do you think their chances of being back in the land are? After all, there are peoples in the O.T. who no longer remain like the Hittites. If prophecy has not been fulfilled why then is Jerusalem becoming a cup that causes reeling to all people around it( Zechariah 12 :2,3 ), as it seems to be today? Why has it become a nation that all the nations of the earth want to come against?
If Israel as a nation is not fulfillment of Prophecy then why does the Lord return to the Mount of Olives as in Zech. 14:4, after fighting against the nations who came against Jerusalem? Why not just return anywhere? Why in Israel if they are not to be a Nation in prophecy again?

Good Questions!

It is not a coincidence. God is not finished with Israel yet. He made a covenant with them a long time ago and God keeps his word.

Lisa

losthorizon
Oct 23rd 2007, 04:08 PM
Good Questions!

It is not a coincidence. God is not finished with Israel yet. He made a covenant with them a long time ago and God keeps his word.

Lisa
God's covenants are never unconditional – they depend on the faith and obedience of those the covenant is made with. God threatened (on different occasions) to expel “the natural seed” (the Jews) from Canaan, and scatter them among the heathen, if they became unbelieving and disobedient (Lev 26:33; Deut 28:64). This was fulfilled in the 1st Century when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and laid waste to the land of Canaan.

Jesus told the Jewish nation in no uncertain terms after they had rejected God’s prophets culminating in their rejection of the promised Messiah - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” The Jews forfeited their deed to the “holy land” because of their unbelief and their rebellion against the God of Abraham.

My heart's Desire
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:03 PM
I can't help thinking about this thread. I also am not sure of the answer, but searching is wonderful. Just to be clear, as far as salvation I do not believe there are 2 different plans of salvation, one to the Jews and one to us. That is spiritual. Salvation is only thru Jesus.
We are talking here though about prophecy concerning the actual, physical land or nation of Israel. If we confuse the two issues we won't find the answer.

My heart's Desire
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:10 PM
Not all biblical scholars consider Zech. 14:4 to be “unfulfilled prophecy” and not everyone buys into the premillennial/dispensational school of eschatology.
This is true so therefore, someone has to be right and some wrong, but somewhere along the line, someone has to end up right or wrong. It would seem to me that if the absolute truth comes then all will hold the same view. You are right, not everyone buys into ANY specific school of eschatology.

My heart's Desire
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:15 PM
God's covenants are never unconditional – they depend on the faith and obedience of those the covenant is made with. God threatened (on different occasions) to expel “the natural seed” (the Jews) from Canaan, and scatter them among the heathen, if they became unbelieving and disobedient (Lev 26:33; Deut 28:64). This was fulfilled in the 1st Century when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and laid waste to the land of Canaan.

Jesus told the Jewish nation in no uncertain terms after they had rejected God’s prophets culminating in their rejection of the promised Messiah - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” The Jews forfeited their deed to the “holy land” because of their unbelief and their rebellion against the God of Abraham.
So do you take that to mean that a believing nation should I say are the ones who have inherited the deed to the "holy land"?

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:34 PM
I can't help thinking about this thread. I also am not sure of the answer, but searching is wonderful. Just to be clear, as far as salvation I do not believe there are 2 different plans of salvation, one to the Jews and one to us. That is spiritual. Salvation is only thru Jesus.
We are talking here though about prophecy concerning the actual, physical land or nation of Israel. If we confuse the two issues we won't find the answer.If you can separate the two, then the Jews have the promise now.

losthorizon
Oct 23rd 2007, 10:31 PM
I can't help thinking about this thread. I also am not sure of the answer, but searching is wonderful. Just to be clear, as far as salvation I do not believe there are 2 different plans of salvation, one to the Jews and one to us. That is spiritual. Salvation is only thru Jesus.
We are talking here though about prophecy concerning the actual, physical land or nation of Israel. If we confuse the two issues we won't find the answer.
But those who buy into the Dispensational error do have two different plans. If you accept that doctrine and buy into a literal interpretation of Ezekiel 40-48 then the earth will have a “millennium” that will be Jewish in character. It will include a yet future fulfillment of the OT promises of land and a worldwide “Davidic kingdom”. There will be a new re-built Temple with revived bloody animal sacrifices for salvific purposes. The old Mosaic system will be resurrected with the Levitical priesthood that ended at the Cross.
Why do we want and need to go back to a system that Christ ended at the Cross? He is “the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Romans 10:4). Why will we need animal sacrifices once again? Didn’t Jesus cry out "It is finished!" Didn’t animal sacrifices cease forever for God's people, never to be instituted again as a replacement for His shed blood? For Dispensationalist to teach otherwise is to render "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," and to "do despite unto the Spirit of grace." (Hebrews 10:29).
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin." (Hebrews 10:4).

ShirleyFord
Oct 24th 2007, 12:21 AM
I've always wondered where the spiritual Jews and spiritual Gentiles who accepted Jesus as their Savior will fit into the Jewish restored kingdom since according to dispensationalism, the land and kingdom will be restored back to the natural Jews only who will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah when He gives them the land and the kingdom.

I have read on Jewish sites where orthodox Jews believe that their kingdom which includes all of the earth will belong to them forever when their Messiah comes, not just for a 1000 years, and that all Gentiles will be their servants.


There will be a new re-built Temple with revived bloody animal sacrifices for salvific purposes. The old Mosaic system will be resurrected with the Levitical priesthood that ended at the Cross.

Why do we want and need to go back to a system that Christ ended at the Cross? He is “the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Romans 10:4). Why will we need animal sacrifices once again? Didn’t Jesus cry out "It is finished!" Didn’t animal sacrifices cease forever for God's people, never to be instituted again as a replacement for His shed blood? For Dispensationalist to teach otherwise is to render "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," and to "do despite unto the Spirit of grace." (Hebrews 10:29).

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin." (Hebrews 10:4).

Amen, LH. Jesus is the true temple and High Priest of God and His sacrifice is the only pure offering for sin that God accepts.

And only those who come into the True Temple and accept the True Offering for sin sacrificed and offered to God by the True High Priest, will enter the kingdom of God, according to the Bible.

Shirley

Steven3
Oct 24th 2007, 02:28 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28)

As far as I'm aware national Israel is not "in Christ Jesus". ;)

Okay I see that for many people here it is axiomatic that God cannot separate the (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of his plan and purpose. That leaves us with a fundamental problem: if God cannot fulfill prophecies through national Israel then what nations can he fulfill prophecy through? USA? Britain? Luxembourg?

We still have Jesus saying "O Jerusalem you will not see me again until" Matt23:39, after Palm Sunday. That prophecy is being denied because of the assumption that God cannot, or will not, engineer events to allow a national repentance prior to Christ's coming. But again that second assumption is based on the previous assumption that God cannot separate the (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of his purpose. God cannot, or will not, fulfill the post AD70 scattering and regathering of Deuteronomy 28:50-68 because most of the children of Israel in AD30 behaved in pretty much the same disobedient way as they had done at any time from the creation of the nation c.1500BCE, from Aaron to Caiaphas. Surprise, surprise - and ancient Gentiles would have been 10x worse.

De28:65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul.

1. Can we perhaps please first see some NT evidence that God cannot progress the (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of his purpose in parallel?

2. Then we can ask for NT evidence for the second assumption that God cannot, or will not, engineer events to allow a national repentance prior to Christ's coming.

Because without NT evidence for both of these assumptions, Christ's "O Jerusalem" promise stands true.

Matt23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

God bless
Steven

quiet dove
Oct 24th 2007, 02:48 AM
Hi Shirley


I've always wondered where the spiritual Jews and spiritual Gentiles who accepted Jesus as their Savior will fit into the Jewish restored kingdom since according to dispensationalism, the land and kingdom will be restored back to the natural Jews only who will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah when He gives them the land and the kingdom.
Not being the label expert but I think that dispensationalism would teach that during the Millenial reign all there will be: (And I know you disagree but this is the explanation)
(1) There are the folks who survive and go physically alive in to the Millenium (**Rev 20:8)
(2) There are the those who were raptured prior to the GT,the dead and alive in Christ (2 Thess 4:17) Spiritual Jews and Gentiles
(3) Those who are killed during the GT who are also resurrected (Rev 20:4) Spiritual Jews and Gentiles

**I don't believe resurrected anyone will be decievable (Rev 20:8), they will have been raised to life immortal/incorruptible in Christ. That indicates physical mortal folks to be decieved.
-Rev 19:21, says the AC and FP are throne into the lake of fire and "the rest are slain), Rev 20:5 says those slain (the unjust) will not live again until after the thousand years and will face the second death. That is why I dont believe any unjust will live into the Millenial, only the just in Christ who are physically alive still at the end of the GT.


I have read on Jewish sites where orthodox Jews believe that their kingdom which includes all of the earth will belong to them forever when their Messiah comes, not just for a 1000 years, and that all Gentiles will be their servants.That would makes sense to a Jewish perspective because the OT does speak of the restoration of Israel and the word "forever" is used. Most Jewish folks would have no use for the book of Revelation or NT for that matter and would not have any understanding of the Temple or Kingdom of God as taught in that Light.


Jesus is the true temple and High Priest of God and His sacrifice is the only pure offering for sin that God accepts.

And only those who come into the True Temple and accept the True Offering for sin sacrificed and offered to God by the True High Priest, will enter the kingdom of God, according to the Bible.I would agree with the above, but at the same time to say that there cannot be a building "temple" makes no sense. We are in Christ spritually of course, but we are also still separate entities, I am still me, you are still you. When we are resurrected to immortality, we will still be separate QD and Shirley. Just like even though we are the temple of God, God is still a separate entity. He certainly is not dependent on us for a temple to dwell in or to exsist. I know you agree with that part.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
This says God will dwell with men, His tabernacle is with men and now there is no temple? So if we are the temple, is there no us? that of course makes no sense. My point is, a Millenial temple rebuilt in Jerusalem with Christ ruling on the earth for a 1000 years is entirely possible, saying that believers are the temple so a physical temple cant be built on earth and have God's presence in it does not hold up as God the Father, God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit need the believers to exsist, they all exsist with or with out us. The believers can be in the kingdom of God, the believers can be the temple of God, and God can exssist anywhere He wants outside of the believers.

And that has nothing to do with the OP, sorry about that, I responded before a looked to see where I was.

ShirleyFord
Oct 24th 2007, 03:12 AM
Steven,

Could you clarify what you mean by "salvational" and "prophetical".

Salvation from sin through the new birth through Jesus Christ, the Son of God was prophecied in every book of the OT and by every prophet. And many OT saints received salvation by grace looking ahead through faith to the sacrifice of the perfect pure offering of God, Jesus Christ, who gave them eternal spiritual life, the only One who could since He is God and is from everlasting to everlasting. And He has already come! And all of us who receive His salvation by His grace through faith are sealed with the Holy Spirit which gurantees our physical bodily salvation when He returns and He sets up His kingdom, New Jerusalem, on the new earth.

So far as I can tell, this is the only kingdom mentioned at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

Shirley

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 03:40 AM
...Because without NT evidence for both of these assumptions, Christ's "O Jerusalem" promise stands true.

Matt23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Whatever “final conversion” of the Jews we wish to read into this passage it will have nothing to do with a transformation of the secular nation of Israel into a “millennial Davidic kingdom” on earth with a re-built temple and a restored Mosaic worship system replete with animal sacrifices and the separation once again of Jew and Gentile.

We are partakers of the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and no other sacrifice is needed. Any hope that the physical Jew has today is the hope we all have – salvation through the blood of the Lamb.

Steven3
Oct 24th 2007, 03:45 AM
Hi Shirley
Steven,

Could you clarify what you mean by "salvational" and "prophetical".

(a) Salvational (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/salvational) purpose - as 1Tim2:4, to save those who believe.
God fulfills a promise by salvation - we become children of Abraham and inherit those promises (says Galatians)

(b) Prophetical (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prophetical) purpose - to prove his existence and power.
God fulfills a prophecy by means which have no connection to salvation - Pharaoh, Tiglath Pileser, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Titus - these were all instruments of prophecy without any belief (though Nebuchadnezzar later believed). Likewise Israel was/is Jehovah's witness to the Gentiles not because of their belief/salvation but despite of it. (Do I need to give OT verses?)

If Israel is no longer an instrument of prophecy then what nation is?


So far as I can tell, this is the only kingdom mentioned at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.Why wouldn't it be? That doesn't change what Matt23:39 says, nor Ro11 about the broken off branch being grafted back in.

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 24th 2007, 03:52 AM
Hi Lost Horizon :)
Whatever “final conversion” of the Jews we wish to read into this passage it will have nothing to do with a transformation of the secular nation of Israel into a “millennial Davidic kingdom” on earth with a re-built temple and a restored Mosaic worship system replete with animal sacrifices and the separation once again of Jew and Gentile. So that's the reason you're rejecting a Jewish repentance, because some people take Zechariah literally, complete with slaughterrooms in the temple? Let me say that it is possible to believe in Israel converting without a literal restoration of Mosaic sacrifices.
We are partakers of the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and no other sacrifice is needed. Any hope that the physical Jew has today is the hope we all have – salvation through the blood of the Lamb.I agree, so does Hebrews. That doesn't make this any less true:

Matt23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Somewhere between one extreme (e.g. even God doesn't consider modern Israel any more significant for history or prophecy than Uganda, Christ comes back to exterminate the Jews) and the other (When Christ comes God is setting the clock back to Solomon's Temple again) there is plenty of width for a middle-of-the-road view that allows both Hebrews and Matt23:37-39 etc to be true.
God bless
Steven

ShirleyFord
Oct 24th 2007, 04:05 AM
That would makes sense to a Jewish perspective because the OT does speak of the restoration of Israel and the word "forever" is used. Most Jewish folks would have no use for the book of Revelation or NT for that matter and would not have any understanding of the Temple or Kingdom of God as taught in that Light.

I believe that when we find "forever" in the OT or NT that it literally means what it says, "forever". And the kingdom of God is an eternal kingdom that never ends.



I would agree with the above, but at the same time to say that there cannot be a building "temple" makes no sense. We are in Christ spritually of course, but we are also still separate entities, I am still me, you are still you. When we are resurrected to immortality, we will still be separate QD and Shirley. Just like even though we are the temple of God, God is still a separate entity. He certainly is not dependent on us for a temple to dwell in or to exsist. I know you agree with that part.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
This says God will dwell with men, His tabernacle is with men and now there is no temple? So if we are the temple, is there no us? that of course makes no sense. My point is, a Millenial temple rebuilt in Jerusalem with Christ ruling on the earth for a 1000 years is entirely possible, saying that believers are the temple so a physical temple cant be built on earth and have God's presence in it does not hold up as God the Father, God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit need the believers to exsist, they all exsist with or with out us. The believers can be in the kingdom of God, the believers can be the temple of God, and God can exssist anywhere He wants outside of the believers.

And that has nothing to do with the OP, sorry about that, I responded before a looked to see where I was.


22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

John saw no stone temple in new Jerusalem, the eternal kingdom of God since the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

This is the same heavenly kingdom where Jesus now dwells physically and bodily in heaven. And He is the true temple still of His kingdom.

We, who are in Christ Jesus are now His lively stones that make up His physical temple on earth simply because He, the true temple, dwells within each of us who are His spiritually by His Spirit. We make up the One true temple on earth.

I just can't find where another stone or brick temple like the first and second temples will ever be needed. The only reason for Solomon's temple was to house the tabernacle in so it wouldn't have to be carried around wherever the Israelites were for the presence of God to be in their midst and they would gain the victory over their enemies.

Also, God told Moses that He would place His tabernacle where He placed His name. And that was earthly Jerusalem. They also needed the tabernacle that housed the holy place and the most holy place to offer the daily animal sacrifices on the brazen altar outside of the tabernacle in the inner court of the temple. The temple was also needed for the priests to continually praise and magnify God.

There is no need now for any sacrifices for sins. There is no need for the Levitical priesthood to continally offer daily sacrifices to God. There is no need for a Levitical priesthood to continually praise and magnify God.

Jesus took care of all of that with His one sacrifice. He is our eternal High Priest and we are His priests who are to continually offer the sacrifice of praise unto Him and magnify His name in all the earth.

Shirley

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 04:07 AM
Hi Lost Horizon :)So that's the reason you're rejecting a Jewish repentance, because some people take Zechariah literally, complete with slaughterrooms in the temple? Let me say that it is possible to believe in Israel converting without a literal restoration of Mosaic sacrifices....

...Somewhere between one extreme (e.g. even God doesn't consider modern Israel any more significant for history or prophecy than Uganda, Christ comes back to exterminate the Jews) and the other (When Christ comes God is setting the clock back to Solomon's Temple again) there is plenty of width for a middle-of-the-road view that allows both Hebrews and Matt23:37-39 etc to be true.
God bless
Steven
Tell me more I would like to hear your concept. Please provide scriptural support. :)

ShirleyFord
Oct 24th 2007, 04:19 AM
Somewhere between one extreme (e.g. even God doesn't consider modern Israel any more significant for history or prophecy than Uganda, Christ comes back to exterminate the Jews) and the other (When Christ comes God is setting the clock back to Solomon's Temple again) there is plenty of width for a middle-of-the-road view that allows both Hebrews and Matt23:37-39 etc to be true.

God bless
Steven

No one that I'm aware of on this forum, Steven, has ever posted since I have been here that Christ is Coming back to exterminate the Jews (whatever you mean by "exterminate").

He is Coming back to pour out His wrath on all of those who reject Him.

Shirley

quiet dove
Oct 24th 2007, 04:40 AM
No one that I'm aware of on this forum, Steven, has ever posted since I have been here that Christ is Coming back to exterminate the Jews (whatever you mean by "exterminate").


Shirley

No, absolutely not acceptable teaching. I know you agree Shirley, and any post teaching this needs to be reported. Immediately if not sooner

Allegra
Oct 24th 2007, 04:46 AM
Hi Lost Horizon :)So that's the reason you're rejecting a Jewish repentance, because some people take Zechariah literally, complete with slaughterrooms in the temple? Let me say that it is possible to believe in Israel converting without a literal restoration of Mosaic sacrifices.I agree, so does Hebrews. That doesn't make this any less true:

Matt23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Somewhere between one extreme (e.g. even God doesn't consider modern Israel any more significant for history or prophecy than Uganda, Christ comes back to exterminate the Jews) and the other (When Christ comes God is setting the clock back to Solomon's Temple again) there is plenty of width for a middle-of-the-road view that allows both Hebrews and Matt23:37-39 etc to be true.
God bless
Steven
I believe after reading more about diaspora Jews vs. Zionists, that any divine protection that Israel may have against its enemies is going to be bc of the small number of Messianic Jews there.
There is no middle road for salvation for the Jews. The everlasting covenant God made to the Jews was the Davidic covenant. This is why Jesus was called "the son of David" Jesus fulfilled the promise God made to "remember" Israel thru the New Covenant.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=182&view=item&idx=1550

Oh yes, Israel's population as of April 2007 is approx. 7,150,000. Over 80% are Jews. That's approx. 5,720,000. 15,000 are Messianic Jews.

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2007, 05:14 AM
But those who buy into the Dispensational error do have two different plans. If you accept that doctrine and buy into a literal interpretation of Ezekiel 40-48 then the earth will have a “millennium” that will be Jewish in character. It will include a yet future fulfillment of the OT promises of land and a worldwide “Davidic kingdom”. There will be a new re-built Temple with revived bloody animal sacrifices for salvific purposes. The old Mosaic system will be resurrected with the Levitical priesthood that ended at the Cross.
Why do we want and need to go back to a system that Christ ended at the Cross? He is “the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Romans 10:4). Why will we need animal sacrifices once again? Didn’t Jesus cry out "It is finished!" Didn’t animal sacrifices cease forever for God's people, never to be instituted again as a replacement for His shed blood? For Dispensationalist to teach otherwise is to render "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," and to "do despite unto the Spirit of grace." (Hebrews 10:29).
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin." (Hebrews 10:4).
Once again, some see error in Dispensationalism but others see just as much error in other ism's as well. We wouldn't be even discussing it if it was not this way.
I think your comment is still mixing an actual land promise to Israel up with the '"plan of salvation" which is for all who accept.

quiet dove
Oct 24th 2007, 05:32 AM
Shirley - I started us another thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1419207#post1419207)
and who ever else wants to jump in

ForceMajuere
Oct 24th 2007, 05:32 AM
Whatever “final conversion” of the Jews we wish to read into this passage it will have nothing to do with a transformation of the secular nation of Israel into a “millennial Davidic kingdom” on earth with a re-built temple and a restored Mosaic worship system replete with animal sacrifices and the separation once again of Jew and Gentile.

We are partakers of the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and no other sacrifice is needed. Any hope that the physical Jew has today is the hope we all have – salvation through the blood of the Lamb.

To miss God's purpose in this time with the restoration of the Nation of Israel is to missunderstand God's Covenant promise to the Nation of Israel and be no better than Iran's President who believes in the same Replacement Theology, except substituting Moslems for Christians.

"Behold I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in My anger, and in My fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: and they shall be My people and I shall be their God:

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and of their children after them: and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me." Jer. 32:37-39

Zech. 13:8-9,"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, 2 parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the 3rd shall be left therein. And I will bring the 3rd part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is My people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

The 2/3rd's were cut off during WWII in a period called the 'Holocaust' or Shoah by the Jews. Even nations such as Canada and Germany recognize this event and have made it a crime to say that the Holocaust never happened; atheistic non-believing people recognize this event; the War College of the US studies the battles of the 6 Day War in 1967 and the drammatic turnaround for Israel after the Rabbi's got in the trenches and prayed in the '73 conflict-anyone in this time and era who doesn't acknowledge God's hand on the Nation of Israel is just as blind as the scribes and Pharisees were during the time of Christ.

Rom. 11:25,"For I would not, brethren, that should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in the part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so All Israel Shall Be Saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Zech. 8:23,"Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all the languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

To be ignorant or unbelieving of these Truths is to miss 'the sign of the Times' and be part of Satan's plan which is to try to prevent Jesus's return and reign on earth.

Sincerely,
FM

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2007, 05:56 AM
Jer 33:20 Thus says the Lord, "If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time,
21; then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers.

(Sounds to me like if there were a time come that day and night do not come at their appointed times then it will be a time when God's covenant would be broken with David so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne. Notice it says
it is also with his Levitical priests who are his ministers?)
Have day and night ceased to come at their appointed time yet?

22. As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me. (the priests)
23. And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
24. Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them'? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as nation in their sight.
(this verse tells me that People who saying that the 2 families the Lord had chose were rejected by Him. By saying that they were despising God's people by saying they were no longer a nation.)
(The Lord's answer is......?)
25. Thus says the Lord, If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established,
26. then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.'"

God replies by saying that He will not reject them unless day and night ceases and He says He will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.

Again, in Jer.31:31 Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32. not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, althought I was a husband to them, " declares the Lord.
33. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, " I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it' and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34.....
35. Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the Lord,
"Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a NATION before Me forever."

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2007, 06:09 AM
To miss God's purpose in this time with the restoration of the Nation of Israel is to missunderstand God's Covenant promise to the Nation of Israel and be no better than Iran's President who believes in the same Replacement Theology, except substituting Moslems for Christians.

Sincerely,
FM

Hey, we posted at the same times with some of the same scripture. :)

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2007, 06:40 AM
This thread is most interesting but alas it's bedtime again, but tomorrow (should I say later today..it is after 1 A.M. here)
I'm off so hopefully will be back. Although I think the current land of Israel has been prophecied and I think the things in the book of Daniel tells more about what is to come for them. I do understand also the things others have said about what is said in Hebrews and Romans. (the branches, etc) Regardless, some things still mystify me such as the "remnant" as it is always spoken of in the O.T and the New. Somehow I believe it refers to Jewish people. Anyway, tomorrow my friends and God Bless.

Steven3
Oct 24th 2007, 08:53 AM
Somewhere between one extreme (e.g. even God doesn't consider modern Israel any more significant for history or prophecy than Uganda, Christ comes back to exterminate the Jews) and the other (When Christ comes God is setting the clock back to Solomon's Temple again) there is plenty of width for a middle-of-the-road view that allows both Hebrews and Matt23:37-39 etc to be true.

God bless
Steven

No one that I'm aware of on this forum, Steven, has ever posted since I have been here that Christ is Coming back to exterminate the Jews (whatever you mean by "exterminate").

He is Coming back to pour out His wrath on all of those who reject Him.
Shirley

Hi Shirley
I didn't say either of those extremes had been posted here, I simply said there is plenty of middle ground between them. According to Merriam-Webster to exterminate (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/exterminate) means "to get rid of completely usually by killing off". Though I do not believe Christ comes back to do this, not to Jews, nor Buddhists, nor even slack Christians. Nevertheless however bad "extermination" sounds, annihilation is still better than an even more extreme belief that Christ comes back to consign Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and all else who reject him, to eternal torment in inferno.

Can I ask what "pour out His wrath on all of those who reject Him" means to you? If God does not engineer a national repentance for much of Israel prior Christ's coming then how exactly do you expect Christ will "pour out His wrath" on Israel?

However, I don't think we really need to discuss this too far because according to Christ's "O Jerusalem" prophecy Matt23:37-39 when Israel says "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" then they will see Christ again.
God bless
Steven

wingnut
Oct 24th 2007, 09:26 AM
What then makes us conclude that the 6 other times that "thousand years" is used, which by the way are all in the same Chapter, Revelation 20, should be interpreted any differently than it is everywhere else in the Bible?

Hi Shirley

In Rev 20:7 it says "And when THE thousand years are expired..." using the definite article "the". This is referring to a specific "thousand years" - the same thousand years referred to in the previous verse 6, where it talks about "reign with him a thousand years".

In English if I say I will spend a day with you - you still know I will spend one day with you.
If I identify tomorrow as THE day, you still know that it is one day I will spend with you. Either way, the length of time is not in question.
The millennium is a definite 1000 year period, and it is the period following Christ's return.

Steven3
Oct 24th 2007, 09:32 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)
Tell me more I would like to hear your concept. Please provide scriptural support. :)

Simply that the OT is full of verses telling Israel again and again that their prophetical role has no bearing on their own faith or salvation.

Isaiah 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known,
from of old your ear has not been opened.
For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously,
and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 “For my name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.


It's a common misunderstanding among Christians that God preserved Israel because they were good or bad. Not so. "For my name's sake". If that was true in 1500BC, 720BC, 586BC, 70AD it's true now too. And that's part of Christ's point in the "O Jerusalem" prophecy. Jerusalem can't run from God.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 12:57 PM
Hi LostHorizon :)

Simply that the OT is full of verses telling Israel again and again that their prophetical role has no bearing on their own faith or salvation.

Isaiah 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known,
from of old your ear has not been opened.
For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously,
and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 “For my name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.


It's a common misunderstanding among Christians that God preserved Israel because they were good or bad. Not so. "For my name's sake". If that was true in 1500BC, 720BC, 586BC, 70AD it's true now too. And that's part of Christ's point in the "O Jerusalem" prophecy. Jerusalem can't run from God.
God bless
Steven
Are you saying that God’s covenants were not conditional – including the “land promise” to the children of Israel? Doesn’t the NT explain that the Hebrew nation apostatized and lost her special privileges she had with God (Matthew 21:43). Were not those privileges given to “another nation”?
When ye transgress the covenant of Jehovah your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods, and bow down yourselves to them; then will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you. ~ Joshua 23:16I have not seen your quasi-dispensational concept. Do you believe a God-inspired new temple is yet future in Jerusalem with a resurrected Mosaic worship system? Will there be a revived Levitical priesthood with animal “sin offers” once again commanded by God after the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus Christ? Is this troubling dilemma part of your doctrine?

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 02:25 PM
Once again, some see error in Dispensationalism but others see just as much error in other ism's as well. We wouldn't be even discussing it if it was not this way.

Shouldn’t we then reject all non-biblical ISMs and the errors and confusion they perpetuate?


I think your comment is still mixing an actual land promise to Israel up with the '"plan of salvation" which is for all who accept.

I don’t think there is any confusion on my part. Do you agree or disagree that both the “land promise” and the God’s plan of salvation under the New Testament are conditioned on our obedience to God? Did Jesus not tell the Hebrew nation:
“Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Why was the kingdom “take away”? It was taken away because of their unbelief and rebellion against the God of Abraham. Through their infidelity to the Eternal the Jews forfeited their title to “the land of Canaan”.

Mograce2U
Oct 24th 2007, 02:55 PM
Hi LostHorizon :)

Simply that the OT is full of verses telling Israel again and again that their prophetical role has no bearing on their own faith or salvation.

Isaiah 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known,
from of old your ear has not been opened.
For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously,
and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 “For my name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.


It's a common misunderstanding among Christians that God preserved Israel because they were good or bad. Not so. "For my name's sake". If that was true in 1500BC, 720BC, 586BC, 70AD it's true now too. And that's part of Christ's point in the "O Jerusalem" prophecy. Jerusalem can't run from God.That is because their Salvation had not yet arrived. How can you bypass the events of the 1st Advent to keep the promise yet future? What prophetical role remains undone for Israel who brought Messiah to birth? The remnant did receive their Savior and the rest were cut off and have been ever since. Yet you see millions of Jews who died without hope in the past 2000 years as being the ones who have yet to receive their promise? Jesus is that Promise. Without Him there is no other to give them. As long as they continue to reject Him, they have no hope in the kingdom to come which is already begun.

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2007, 06:53 PM
Shouldn’t we then reject all non-biblical ISMs and the errors and confusion they perpetuate?



I don’t think there is any confusion on my part. Do you agree or disagree that both the “land promise” and the God’s plan of salvation under the New Testament are conditioned on our obedience to God? Did Jesus not tell the Hebrew nation:
“Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Why was the kingdom “take away”? It was taken away because of their unbelief and rebellion against the God of Abraham. Through their infidelity to the Eternal the Jews forfeited their title to “the land of Canaan”.

If we reject all the isms then we'd have to give up all Bible intrepretation. That is where all the "isms" come from is from different people's intrepretations. "isms" are just names given to group intrepretations. If we reject them all then we could very well be throwing out the right one or even just part's of the right one.

So then why has the land not yet been given to the ones who are bearing the fruits thereof , if it has been taken away? Somehow you seem to be mixing up the "Kingdom of God" with the promise of land to Israel as a Nation.

David Taylor
Oct 24th 2007, 08:20 PM
(b) Prophetical (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/prophetical) purpose - to prove his existence and power.
God fulfills a prophecy by means which have no connection to salvation - Pharaoh, Tiglath Pileser, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Titus - these were all instruments of prophecy without any belief (though Nebuchadnezzar later believed). Likewise Israel was/is Jehovah's witness to the Gentiles not because of their belief/salvation but despite of it. (Do I need to give OT verses?)

Those examples were all true, leading up to the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

They were all pre-type witnesses to his existence and power.

However, when Christ came, He was the climax of all those prophecies, and when He arose with resurrection power and glory, Jesus Himself.....and nothing else forevermore, became the great example that proves his existence and power.






If Israel is no longer an instrument of prophecy then what nation is?


Declaring a nation to be the instrument of prophecy (now in the place of Christ) would be passing over the Cadillac in favor of a Yugo or Pinto.

Jesus Christ, not any nation that is trapped in sin, greed, self-servitude, etc...(of which all mortal nations are to one degree or another) is the prophetic Cadillac and instrument of prophecy.

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 10:26 PM
If we reject all the isms then we'd have to give up all Bible intrepretation. That is where all the "isms" come from is from different people's intrepretations. "isms" are just names given to group intrepretations. If we reject them all then we could very well be throwing out the right one or even just part's of the right one.

I prefaced ISM with the qualifying term, “non-biblical”. If you research non-biblical dispensationalism/Darbyism you will see that it did not exist prior to the 19th century when Darby capitalized on the “vision” of a young Scottish girl.


So then why has the land not yet been given to the ones who are bearing the fruits thereof , if it has been taken away? Somehow you seem to be mixing up the "Kingdom of God" with the promise of land to Israel as a Nation.

The land is immaterial under the New Testament. The “kingdom of God” that is to be taken into all the world is of the utmost importance and it has been given to those who are “bearing the fruits thereof” – the promise was taken away from the disobedient Hebrew nation that rejected her Messiah and given to a “holy nation”…
“But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light…” 1 Peter 2:9, NASBYou didn’t answer my questions - Do you agree or disagree that both the “land promise” and God’s plan of salvation under the New Testament are conditioned on our obedience to God? Did Jesus not tell the Hebrew nation that the kingdom of God would be taken away from them because of their unbelief? I will also add one more - Is the Lord’s church the “kingdom of God” on earth today or is national Israel God’s kingdom today?

Upon Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said – “upon this rock I will build my church… I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven". Matt.16:18-19

ForceMajuere
Oct 24th 2007, 11:37 PM
You didn’t answer my questions - Do you agree or disagree that both the “land promise” and God’s plan of salvation under the New Testament are conditioned on our obedience to God? Did Jesus not tell the Hebrew nation that the kingdom of God would be taken away from them because of their unbelief? I will also add one more - Is the Lord’s church the “kingdom of God” on earth today or is national Israel God’s kingdom today?


Upon Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said – “upon this rock I will build my church… I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven". Matt.16:18-19

The Covenant of God to Abraham and his decendants consisted of 2 things:

1) I will make your seed as many as the stars of the sky
Gen. 15:5-6,"And He brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou are able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall thy seed be."

2) I will give you a land unto perpetuity
Gen. 17:8,"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possesion: and I will be their God."

No Gentile nation can claim ownership to these lands, irregardless of whatever transgressions the children of Israel may have committed. There are no if/thens in this Covenant, the stronger party(God) has clearly chosen to make this Covenant.

Your Replacement Theology somehow suggests that God has annulled His Covenant with His people-Jesus said Heaven and Earth would pass away before one jot or tittle of the Law be changed. Since the Torah, or Law is the 1st five books of the bible, Genesis being the first book in which the Covenant promise is mentioned, you are saying that Heaven and Earth are already passed away. I disagree.

The land promise was not given to the church, rather, the Kingdom of God was given to a nation bringing for the fruits thereof.(Matt. 21:43) Since Jesus answered Pilate by saying,"My Kingdom is not of this world", God did not break His Covenant with Physical Israel, rather He extended His spiritual covenant to a people He called 'dogs' to participate in by faith.

The 'keys' are spiritual keys, the 'land' is spiritual land. In the New Jerusalem, when the old Heavens and Earth will pass away, then we will have our rightful inheritance. To say so before the fact is to call God a liar-I wouldn't want to answer to that charge.

Sincerely,
FM

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 12:29 AM
I prefaced ISM with the qualifying term, “non-biblical”. If you research non-biblical dispensationalism/Darbyism you will see that it did not exist prior to the 19th century when Darby capitalized on the “vision” of a young Scottish girl.



The land is immaterial under the New Testament. The “kingdom of God” that is to be taken into all the world is of the utmost importance and it has been given to those who are “bearing the fruits thereof” – the promise was taken away from the disobedient Hebrew nation that rejected her Messiah and given to a “holy nation”…
“But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light…” 1 Peter 2:9, NASBYou didn’t answer my questions - Do you agree or disagree that both the “land promise” and God’s plan of salvation under the New Testament are conditioned on our obedience to God? Did Jesus not tell the Hebrew nation that the kingdom of God would be taken away from them because of their unbelief? I will also add one more - Is the Lord’s church the “kingdom of God” on earth today or is national Israel God’s kingdom today?

Upon Peter’s confession that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus said – “upon this rock I will build my church… I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven". Matt.16:18-19
Is the Kingdom of God the same as the kingdom of Heaven? I've read somewhere that though they may have some of the same qualities, they are somewhat different.
Israel's obedience was based on Law until Jesus came and they rejected Him as their Messiah. Our salvation is based on grace through faith in Jesus not obedience exactly depending on what you mean by obedience.

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 12:55 AM
...Your Replacement Theology somehow suggests that God has annulled His Covenant with His people-Jesus said Heaven and Earth would pass away before one jot or tittle of the Law be changed. Since the Torah, or Law is the 1st five books of the bible, Genesis being the first book in which the Covenant promise is mentioned, you are saying that Heaven and Earth are already passed away. I disagree.

The only significance of the secular nation of Israel today in God’s plan for His creation is that it is a country of people whose souls need salvation through the sacrifice of Christ. The “land promise” made to the Hebrew nation was fulfilled when God brought the Israelites out of bondage and gave them the land of Canaan in the days of Joshua and the promise of keeping the land was always conditional on Israel obeying God…
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their sojournings, wherein they sojourned. And moreover I have heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments: and I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah your God, who bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you in unto the land which I sware to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for a heritage: I am Jehovah. (Exodus 6:4-8) God told the Israelites if they habitually disobeyed He would "cast thee off for ever" –
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. I Chronicles 28:9The Hebrew nation rejected her Messaih and Jesus made this pronouncement - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

The Jews forfeited their right to the “holy land” forever because of their unbelief and their rebellion against the God of Abraham. All the hoopla from the dispensational camp will not reverse what God has completed. The Roman army laid waste to Israel in 70 AD and spread them to the four corners of the world. The modern state of Israel is a different country than the nation of Israel we read about in Holy Writ.

Steven3
Oct 25th 2007, 12:56 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)
Are you saying that God’s covenants were not conditional – including the “land promise” to the children of Israel?I'm saying first that Christians should be able to separate the promises to Abraham from Israel's role as an often unwilling witness in prophecy.
Doesn’t the NT explain that the Hebrew nation apostatized and lost her special privileges she had with God (Matthew 21:43). Were not those privileges given to “another nation”?Yes it does. But what has this got to do with prophecy regarding the nation of Israel?


I have not seen your quasi-dispensational concept. Do you believe a God-inspired new temple is yet future in Jerusalem with a resurrected Mosaic worship system? Will there be a revived Levitical priesthood with animal “sin offers” once again commanded by God after the “once for all” sacrifice of Jesus Christ? Is this troubling dilemma part of your doctrine?I don't know what quasi-dispensational means, and I don't think I need to know do I? ;). As to those other questions I already said I didn't. But to repeat. No, no, no, no and no.

Now back to the middle-road. Why cannot God fulfill his prophecies with national Israel because of their unbelief when that didn't prevent him in the OT?
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 25th 2007, 01:04 AM
Hi David :)
Declaring a nation to be the instrument of prophecy (now in the place of Christ) would be passing over the Cadillac in favor of a Yugo or Pinto.Personally I'd prefer a Yugo or a Pinto over a gas-guzzling and global-warming Cadillac, but I get the analogy ;)

The problem with the analogy however is that God has already shown he's not squeamish about fulfilling prophecy with a series of Yugos and Pintos in the OT, and even in the NT did God not partially fulfill some of the dual-fulfillment elements in the Olivet prophecy by using physical Jerusalem (Yugo) and general Titus (Pinto)?

Like it or not "signs" prior to Christ's coming will by definition be less than Christ himself. If we forbid God to use anything less than Christ in prophecy we're basically ruling out any signs.
God bless
Steven

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 01:20 AM
Ezek 36:1-24 Seems to tell me that before the events in Revelation regarding the Kingdom of God happen that Israel as a Nation will be brought back onto their land while they are still in unbelief. Ezek. 36:2 always catches my eye considering current events.
36:2 This says the Lord God, " Because the enemy has spoken against you, "Aha!" and, " The everlasting heights have become our possession,"
Ezek 35:10 because you have said, "These two nations and these two lands will be mine, and we will possess them, " although the Lord was there.

The enemies were speaking these things against the mountains of Israel. Sort of like today?

God's answer, vr 15. I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore,
Eze 36:23,24

I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 01:22 AM
Now back to the middle-road. Why cannot God fulfill his prophecies with national Israel because of their unbelief when that didn't prevent him in the OT?

Steven - see my last post - the “land promise” made to the Hebrew nation was fulfilled when God brought the Israelites out of bondage and gave them the land of Canaan and that promise was always dependant on Israel’s obedience to God. The kingdom was taken from the Hebrew nation and given to the church of God. The Israel of God today are those who acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus.
“And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Gal 6: 16 “The Israel of God. The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh.” ~ Adam Clarke

Steven3
Oct 25th 2007, 01:59 AM
Hi Lost Horizon :)
Steven - see my last post - the “land promise” made to the Hebrew nation was fulfilled when God brought the Israelites out of bondage and gave them the land of Canaan and that promise was always dependant on Israel’s obedience to God. Well you say this but the OT prophets say the opposite - that the promise was not dependant on their obedience, but for their ancestor Abraham's sake and/or "my names sake", to glorify YHWH's name before the gentiles. Who do I believe? You or Isaiah? :)

The kingdom was taken from the Hebrew nation and given to the church of God.Yes.
The Israel of God today are those who acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus.
“And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Gal 6: 16 “The Israel of God. The true Christians, called here the Israel of God, to distinguish them from Israel according to the flesh.” ~ Adam ClarkeMaybe. I used to read as Adam Clarke in that verse, then I started to wonder if I was imposing my own PC agenda over Paul writing to a church with Greek and Jewish converts. Adam Clarke may be right, he may be wrong.

* Either way it doesn't change the fact that Jesus prophesied "O Jerusalem..", or that the Olivet prophecy contains references to physical Israel, or that part of De28 is post AD70, or that Paul asks "what will their acceptance be", or that Rev1:18 speaks of "even they that pierced him".

* And we're still looking for a reason why God can fulfill prophecy with Egyptians and Edom and Tyre, but is not allowed (by us?) to use physical Israel any more because they lapsed in AD30 as they had done so many times before?

* We're also still looking for a reason why God who rules in the kingdoms of men and gives them to whom he pleases (Daniel 4) allowed Israel to return in 1948 if it was against his will and no part in his purpose?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 02:36 AM
...Yes.Maybe. I used to read as Adam Clarke in that verse, then I started to wonder if I was imposing my own PC agenda over Paul writing to a church with Greek and Jewish converts. Adam Clarke may be right, he may be wrong.

He certainly is not an inspired writer but I think he is correct in his connection between the Israel of God and the Lord’s church.

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

And we're still looking for a reason why God can fulfill prophecy with Egyptians and Edom and Tyre, but is not allowed (by us?) to use physical Israel any more because they lapsed in AD30 as they had done so many times before?
And what is it exactly that “us” will not allow physical Israel to do?


We're also still looking for a reason why God who rules in the kingdoms of men and gives them to whom he pleases (Daniel 4) allowed Israel to return in 1948 if it was against his will and no part in his purpose?I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocate, (1) that it was against God’s will that some Jews returned to Palestine in 1948; or that some returned in 1932; or that some returned in 1925 – all years of migration for Jews from the Jewish Diaspora to Palestine and (2) I do not read where any one states that the Jews are no longer part of God’s purpose – I think they are. :)

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 03:11 AM
Ezek 36:1-24 Seems to tell me that before the events in Revelation regarding the Kingdom of God happen that Israel as a Nation will be brought back onto their land while they are still in unbelief. Ezek. 36:2 always catches my eye considering current events.
36:2 This says the Lord God, " Because the enemy has spoken against you, "Aha!" and, " The everlasting heights have become our possession,"
Ezek 35:10 because you have said, "These two nations and these two lands will be mine, and we will possess them, " although the Lord was there.

The enemies were speaking these things against the mountains of Israel. Sort of like today?

God's answer, vr 15. I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore,
Eze 36:23,24

I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
If you are going to force a literal and yet future interpretation of the passage in Ezek 36:1-24 then you must also accept a literal interpretation of Ezekiel chapters 40-48. And according to the hermeneutics of dispensational lore there will be a literal Jewish theocracy (yet future) with a reconstituted animal sacrificial system in a re-built Temple. If this all is to be taken literally what are we to think about the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? Are we going to have two paths to salvation (God forbid), (1) the atonement of Christ, and (2) the revised OT Levitical sacrificial system?

How will you reconcile your doctrine with what was presented to us by the writer of Hebrews. i.e., the new covenant in Christ Jesus is a "better covenant"..."In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13). The writer also tells us in no uncertain terms that animal sacrifices will never again be of value (Heb. 10:4) - why – because Christ has "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time" (Heb. 10:12).

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 03:11 AM
Ezek 36:1-24 Seems to tell me that before the events in Revelation regarding the Kingdom of God happen that Israel as a Nation will be brought back onto their land while they are still in unbelief. Ezek. 36:2 always catches my eye considering current events.
36:2 This says the Lord God, " Because the enemy has spoken against you, "Aha!" and, " The everlasting heights have become our possession,"
Ezek 35:10 because you have said, "These two nations and these two lands will be mine, and we will possess them, " although the Lord was there.

The enemies were speaking these things against the mountains of Israel. Sort of like today?

God's answer, vr 15. I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore,
Eze 36:23,24

I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24. For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.Ezekiel is speaking 30 years into the Babylon Captivity - 40 years before they were restored to the land. Which was some 15+ years after Jerusalem had been sacked.

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2007, 04:12 AM
l

osthorizon
the “land promise” made to the Hebrew nation was fulfilled when God brought the Israelites out of bondage and gave them the land of Canaan and that promise was always dependant on Israel’s obedience to God. The kingdom was taken from the Hebrew nation and given to the church of God. The Israel of God today are those who acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus.
It seems one thing that should be considered in saying that God took the kingdom away from the Hebrews is what kingdom did He take away? What kingdom no longer exsisted? It was an earthly kingdom, was it not? So how did God take away this earthly kingdom of Israel away from the Hebrews and replace it with the Church when the Church is not an earthyly kingdom, the Church is not a kingdom at all, but the members of the Church are members of the kingdom of God, a kingdom that was never earthly and never taken away from the Jews.


If you are going to force a literal and yet future interpretation of the passage in Ezek 36:1-24 then you must also accept a literal interpretation of Ezekiel chapters 40-48. And according to the hermeneutics of dispensational lore there will be a literal Jewish theocracy (yet future) with a reconstituted animal sacrificial system in a re-built Temple. If this all is to be taken literally what are we to think about the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? Are we going to have two paths to salvation (God forbid), (1) the atonement of Christ, and (2) the revised OT Levitical sacrificial system? No, according to dispensationalism there is only one way of salvation, the atonement of Christ, that would be the same atonement that washed the OT faithful clean just like it washes any since then clean. The Levitical sacrificial system never washed anyone clean and gave them a white robe.

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 04:40 AM
If you are going to force a literal and yet future interpretation of the passage in Ezek 36:1-24 then you must also accept a literal interpretation of Ezekiel chapters 40-48. And according to the hermeneutics of dispensational lore there will be a literal Jewish theocracy (yet future) with a reconstituted animal sacrificial system in a re-built Temple. If this all is to be taken literally what are we to think about the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross? Are we going to have two paths to salvation (God forbid), (1) the atonement of Christ, and (2) the revised OT Levitical sacrificial system?

How will you reconcile your doctrine with what was presented to us by the writer of Hebrews. i.e., the new covenant in Christ Jesus is a "better covenant"..."In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13). The writer also tells us in no uncertain terms that animal sacrifices will never again be of value (Heb. 10:4) - why – because Christ has "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time" (Heb. 10:12).

It sounds as if you think I'm saying the old covenant with Israel is still in effect and that I don't think that the Salvation bought by Jesus replaced it. I'm certainly not saying that.


I'm not sure what you are talking about exactly and I'm not familiar with the Temple description at the end of Ezk. in my personal studies, except for what I've read from scholars who say the description is not the same as the earlier Temples were (Solomons, Herod's).
But..if the Book of Daniel describes someone who makes a covenant with Israel and then after 3 1/2 yrs breaks the covenant and causes the sacrifices to cease then obviously there may be a future Temple. That would make sense to me IF modern day Israel is fulfilment of prophecy and they are back in their land in unbelief and if they are still awaiting their Messiah as we know they are, for naturally they would go back to that system since they rejected Jesus to begin with.

Christians know that we no longer need the sacrifices, etc for we know what Jesus did, but natural Israel still does not.

Jer. 31:31 Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Jacob.
vrs 33. state the covenant will put His law within them and on their heart.
---------------------------

Heb 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occassion sought for a second.

8. For finding fault with them, He says,
"Behold, Days are coming, Says the Lord,
when I will effect a New Covenant with the House of israel and with the house of Judah;

Do you not think that the New Covenant God makes with the House of Israel will Not be the same one we have that Jesus bought and paid for on the Cross? I think this will be future.

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 04:57 AM
l It seems one thing that should be considered in saying that God took the kingdom away from the Hebrews is what kingdom did He take away? What kingdom no longer exsisted? It was an earthly kingdom, was it not? So how did God take away this earthly kingdom of Israel away from the Hebrews and replace it with the Church when the Church is not an earthyly kingdom, the Church is not a kingdom at all, but the members of the Church are members of the kingdom of God, a kingdom that was never earthly and never taken away from the Jews.

No, according to dispensationalism there is only one way of salvation, the atonement of Christ, that would be the same atonement that washed the OT faithful clean just like it washes any since then clean. The Levitical sacrificial system never washed anyone clean and gave them a white robe.


Thank you, quiet dove. You explained it quite well.

Steven3
Oct 25th 2007, 04:59 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)
btw your argument, to someone else on the thread, that "dry bones" cannot be literal without Ezekiel's temple kitchens being literal is fair enough, but Israel are not literally "dry bones", so no one is saying Ez35-36 is literal. If it was literal then literal skeletons would have disembarked at Jaffa in 1944-8. So therefore Ez40-48 can be equally symbolic, but still mean something.
And what is it exactly that “us” will not allow physical Israel to do?We as Christians will not allow God to fulfill any further prophecies he has made regarding natural Israel because we're spiritual Israel now so the physical Israel might as well not exist - at least that seems to be the majority view of the last 19 centuries.
I haven’t seen anyone on this thread advocate, (1) that it was against God’s will that some Jews returned to Palestine in 1948; or that some returned in 1932; or that some returned in 1925 – all years of migration for Jews from the Jewish Diaspora to Palestine and (2) I do not read where any one states that the Jews are no longer part of God’s purpose – I think they are. :)Great news! God was involved in 1948 after all :). Then how? Specifically which verses in the NT do you see relating still to physical Israel? :)

God bless
Steven

ForceMajuere
Oct 25th 2007, 05:02 AM
The only significance of the secular nation of Israel today in God’s plan for His creation is that it is a country of people whose souls need salvation through the sacrifice of Christ. The “land promise” made to the Hebrew nation was fulfilled when God brought the Israelites out of bondage and gave them the land of Canaan in the days of Joshua and the promise of keeping the land was always conditional on Israel obeying God…
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their sojournings, wherein they sojourned. And moreover I have heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments: and I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah your God, who bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you in unto the land which I sware to give to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for a heritage: I am Jehovah. (Exodus 6:4-8) God told the Israelites if they habitually disobeyed He would "cast thee off for ever" –
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. I Chronicles 28:9The Hebrew nation rejected her Messaih and Jesus made this pronouncement - “Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

The Jews forfeited their right to the “holy land” forever because of their unbelief and their rebellion against the God of Abraham. All the hoopla from the dispensational camp will not reverse what God has completed. The Roman army laid waste to Israel in 70 AD and spread them to the four corners of the world. The modern state of Israel is a different country than the nation of Israel we read about in Holy Writ.

You have not addressed my main points so I will repeat them bullet point:

1) Abrahamic Covenant was not preconditional-show me what the
conditions are for God to fullfil it.

2) Where does God change His Mind in altering His Law?

3) Since you equate the 'Kingdom of God' with territorial aquisition, where
does Jesus tell the church to possess territory-they tried that in the
Crusades and it didn't work.

4) What about the 'reminant' that was always prophesied about?(Isa.
10:22-23, Rom.9:27-28) According to you, these passages shouldn't be
in the bible.

My biggest concern for those who follow the 'Replacement Theology' is that they are judicially blind; they can't see or acknowledge the Truth of God if it stood up and slapped them in the face. Much the same as the scribes and Pharesees missed Jesus 1st coming, their doctrine won't allow them to acknowledge the obvious-even the athiest can acknowledge a special consideration for the Jews. You will miss God's manifestations and warnings and the obvious signs He has given the world if you miss His dealings with His Chosen People. Heed Paul's Warning-Be not wise in your own conceits!


Sincerely,
FM

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 05:05 AM
My whole summary of what I "think" is that God is not finished with Israel. I believe Daniel's 70th week is still future and therefore it is entirely possible for Israel to be in her land in unbelief before that time and could be the beginning of a fulfillment of prophecy concerning her being there. To go further would take us into our beliefs of the book of Daniel and Revelation which may be outside of the scope of the OP's question as I know it would take me into what I believe will be a millenial period of time which will involve the kingdom of God.
I was trying to keep it short, in other words. :)

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 05:16 AM
I wanted to make one quick comment. This study of Israel and God's promises which took us all the many years through which God dealt with Israel, His chosen people shows us His faithfulness and His commitment to His promises. He didn't let Israel down, they let Him down. But He continued to be faithful to His Word and His promises. If God dealt with them and all their sins with the faithfulness that He did and we know He did, then we can be completely assured that He is faithful with us too who have given our hearts to His Son.

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 01:08 PM
To miss God's purpose in this time with the restoration of the Nation of Israel is to missunderstand God's Covenant promise to the Nation of Israel and be no better than Iran's President who believes in the same Replacement Theology, except substituting Moslems for Christians.

To be ignorant or unbelieving of these Truths is to miss 'the sign of the Times' and be part of Satan's plan which is to try to prevent Jesus's return and reign on earth.

Your Replacement Theology somehow suggests that God has annulled His Covenant with His people

My biggest concern for those who follow the 'Replacement Theology' is that they are judicially blind

You have not addressed my main points so I will repeat them bullet point


FM –

I have intentionally not addressed your posts because I tend to ignore those who insinuate that my position, which has been taught by the church of God for over 2000 years, is somehow “part of Satan's plan” and your equally simplistic remark that I am “no better that Iran's President” who also believes in your vague, oft used and still undefined term, 'Replacement Theology' – a non-biblical term that means many things to many people.

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 01:52 PM
... Specifically which verses in the NT do you see relating still to physical Israel? :)

God bless
Steven
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (as some men count slackness), but is long suffering to us ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Peter 3:9.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 02:57 PM
I hope the Mods will not object to referencing a portion from an edited post:


To miss God's purpose in this time with the restoration of the Nation of Israel is to missunderstand God's Covenant promise to the Nation of Israel...It is a Jewish belief that when Messiah comes it will be to restore them to the land - not to deliver them from sin. To them redemption is possession of the land and the power to rule it. But if this is not the Christian hope, then why do we insist it must be God's plan for them?

The Jew also believes that sin is dealt with under law and keeping the law is how they will reach heaven. This is antithetical to the Christian understanding as well. We know that redemption must be from sin if one is to be reconciled to God and that no law was ever able to accomplish this.

The Abrahamic covenant was sealed with the sign of circumcision. This sign represented by a cutting off of the flesh, pictured the need to circumcise the heart. It was a blood covenant in that sense. The shedding of the blood of a man which also symbolizes death. The everlasting nature of this covenant was fulfilled in the New Covenant by Christ's death on the cross, according to the plan of God for Israel to be reconciled to Him for all eternity.

The New Covenant is what will restore the kingdom to Israel which was always a spiritual kingdom. The kingdom of God, who is Spirit, is where He presides. No Caananite can enter that kingdom - nor can flesh and blood.

These truths are revealed in their fullness in the New Testament, to which the OT provides the picture, but which understanding of it is spiritual in nature. There is no other covenant given to Israel by which she must be saved. Christ confirmed it to Israel by signs and miracles and the word of God. This testimony of Jesus as the Christ was according to Moses & the Prophets. His death provided the blood to initiate this covenant. And because He lives, the life that is in His blood from His sacrifice is everlasting and will not be repeated. The Spirit was sent into the world at Pentecost to seal those who entered into this covenant by faith. These are the ones who have part in the kingdom of God. The kingdom belongs to Jesus who paid the price and Israel is welcome to come into it at anytime she chooses to repent.

The Jews think Messiah will come and bring them the kingdom when the nation as a whole repents. But the covenant promise was never dependent upon national Israel's faithfulness. Christ has done it all because He is the faithful Son who alone perfectly does the will of the Father. This should be good news to every Jew who hears the gospel. The kingdom is now, however repentance is the requirement to enter into it. Jesus has restored the kingdom to Israel and it is more glorious than the one in which they desired. God is dwelling among His people and has brought them peace with Him, and gathers others daily and accepts them as His children.

Ethnic Israel however, does not think they need to be reconciled to God. Even though the temple has been gone almost 2,000 years. This is what unbelief does to a people who forsake the promise given to them. God delivered but they refused the kingdom Jesus brought and now look for another. Their hope is in vain as long as they continue in their unbelief.

There is only one kingdom that is coming visibly upon the earth and the eyes that will see it must first be opened to the presence of that kingdom now.

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 04:56 PM
Because it's a bad description of what we believe

There are multiple definitions of Israel in the NT
1. General Israel
2. Believing Jews (true Israel)
3. Unbelieving Jews

We don't believe the 'church' replaced 'general Israel'
We don't believe the 'church' replaced 'believing Jews'
We don't believe the 'church' replaced 'unbelieving Jews'

So why call it 'replacement' theology

We believe that #3's were broken off of Israel
We believe that #2, it turn, became 'true Israel'
We believe that believing gentiles were added to #2
We believe that the COLLECTIVE #2 is the church

So if the church is made up of believing Jews & gentiles, why would 'replacement' theology be a good term? Did the believing Jews replace themselves? Only in one sense was anyone 'replaced.' Unbelieving Jews were, in a sense, replaced by believing Gentiles. But that's not the church replacing Israel since believing gentiles don't monopolize the term 'church' and unbelieving Jews don't monopolize the term 'Israel.' Plus, 'replacement' is a bad term b/c unbelieving Jews are welcome back into 'true Israel' at any time!
Very good biblical explanation of a very misunderstood concept.:thumbsup:

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 05:27 PM
Ezekiel is speaking 30 years into the Babylon Captivity - 40 years before they were restored to the land. Which was some 15+ years after Jerusalem had been sacked.

Ah, so after that the people were restored (the time of Ezra and Nehemiah) and so then as chapter 36 vr 25 says, God also made them clean and He also gave them a new heart and He put His Spirit within them at that time of restoration?

From then on fruit & grain multiplied so there was no more famine after they were restored? vr. 30
And did God's servant David become king over them at that time? Ezk.37:24
And did they live on the land forever after that? Ezk.37:25
At that time, did God make a covenant of peace with them, that was an everlasting covenant and did He at that time of fulfilment multiply them and set His sanctuary in their midst forever? Ez.27:28?
Did the nations know that God was the Lord who sanctified Israel and that He sanctuary was in their midst forever, after they were restored from the Babylonian exile? vr28

If all this happened then it was fulfilled after they were restored on the land after the exile. If not, then it must be still a future thing.

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2007, 05:36 PM
The modern state of Israel is a different country than the nation of Israel we read about in Holy Writ.
So you do think it is mere coincidence that a state of Israel is living on at least part of the land God promised ancient Israel?

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2007, 06:01 PM
Just a note here everyone, I have split this thread taking the Replacement Theology discussion over to Contro, I think all of you involved will have access so should not be a problem. Not fussing at you, there are is a good discussion going but we are derailing the thread.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=104080

Hopefully all will work correctly and I didnt mess this up. :confused


So......back to 1948 - :)

cwb
Oct 25th 2007, 06:55 PM
I see in this thread that alot of posts are saying that Ezekiel 37:21 is the prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. Some other posts have suggested that Ezekiel 28 was fulfilled on Pentecost. When I read the rest of the passage it does not seem to me that this was fulfilled on Pentecost or in 1948.

Ezekiel 37:22-28
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God
And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



verse 22 - It says I will make them one nation upon the mountains of Israel. The west bank is part of the mountains of Israel. Most of the residents today in the west bank are Palestinians. Therefore I do not see that this prophecy was fulfilled in 1948 nor in 1967. Also nothing happened on the day of Pentecost that comes close to fulfilling this prophecy. The area was still under Roman rule after the day of Pentecost.

verse 23 - it says " Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:." Since they are still rejecting Jesus Christ, it seems to me they are still defiling themselves with their trangressions, hence this prophecy has not come to pass as of yet.

ShirleyFord
Oct 25th 2007, 07:29 PM
CWB,

Ezekiel prophecied to Israel while he was in Babylon during the Babylonian Captivity throughout the book of Ezekiel. His prophecies were the words God gave him to give to His people, Israel, at that particular time. So which generation of Israel would you say that His prophecies were meant for:

1. To that particular generation to whom he was directly speaking at the time?

2. To a future generation who were alive during the earthly ministries of Jesus, Peter, Paul, John etc., during the 1st century AD?

3. To the generation of Israel in the nation of Israel since the early 20th century who maybe are still alive today at least 80 years later who might survive another seven years during the GT of God's wrath poured out on them, if the Church is raptured during 2007, before they can realize the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecies?


Shirley

quiet dove
Oct 25th 2007, 08:09 PM
CWB,

Ezekiel prophecied to Israel while he was in Babylon during the Babylonian Captivity throughout the book of Ezekiel. His prophecies were the words God gave him to give to His people, Israel, at that particular time. So which generation of Israel would you say that His prophecies were meant for:

1. To that particular generation to whom he was directly speaking at the time?

2. To a future generation who were alive during the earthly ministries of Jesus, Peter, Paul, John etc., during the 1st century AD?

3. To the generation of Israel in the nation of Israel since the early 20th century who maybe are still alive today at least 80 years later who might survive another seven years during the GT of God's wrath poured out on them, if the Church is raptured during 2007, before they can realize the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecies?


Shirley

It seems it would be to whatever generation that the prophecy came/comes to pass with. And as is stated here

verse 23 - it says " Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:." Since they are still rejecting Jesus Christ, it seems to me they are still defiling themselves with their trangressions, hence this prophecy has not come to pass as of yet.

This just has not come to pass yet for the nation that the prophecy was given to. Israel.

cwb
Oct 25th 2007, 08:24 PM
CWB,

Ezekiel prophecied to Israel while he was in Babylon during the Babylonian Captivity throughout the book of Ezekiel. His prophecies were the words God gave him to give to His people, Israel, at that particular time. So which generation of Israel would you say that His prophecies were meant for:

1. To that particular generation to whom he was directly speaking at the time?

2. To a future generation who were alive during the earthly ministries of Jesus, Peter, Paul, John etc., during the 1st century AD?

3. To the generation of Israel in the nation of Israel since the early 20th century who maybe are still alive today at least 80 years later who might survive another seven years during the GT of God's wrath poured out on them, if the Church is raptured during 2007, before they can realize the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecies?


Shirley

I would say none of the above. I do not believe that this prophecy which was given to Israel has come to pass as of yet.

Allegra
Oct 25th 2007, 09:02 PM
I believe the Spirit for the dry bones came at Pentecost:
ACTS 2:14-21
Peter Addresses the Crowd

14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:14-21&version=31#fen-NIV-26960a)] Footnotes:

Acts 2:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:14-21&version=31#en-NIV-26960) Joel 2:28-32 Ezekiel's temple is an archetype of the dwelling of God. It functioned (functions) as a spiritual icon of hope for the people who were faithful & not dependent on the "nation" Israel's acceptance of the covenant of peace. (The Messiah) This is fulfilled/compared to the city in the New Jerusalem (Rev.21-22)

Zionism is not the same as a faithful Israel. Consider Galatians 4:22-29
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:22-29&version=31#fen-NIV-29143a)]
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
Footnotes:

Galatians 4:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:22-29&version=31#en-NIV-29143) Isaiah 54:1 Consider the short book of Obadiah. It's for sure that not all Israel is the true Israel of God. Only reference to Mt.Zion (where God lives spiritually) can be claimed by the Davidic covenant. This is not just for the nation Israel. It is not a physical place any longer. Israel can only have the promises of God made to us all for blessings & protection through faith in the Messiah. (Jesus Christ)
Obadiah 15-18
15 "The day of the LORD is near
for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
your deeds will return upon your own head.
16 Just as you drank on my holy hill,
so all the nations will drink continually;
they will drink and drink
and be as if they had never been.
17 But on Mount Zion will be deliverance;
it will be holy,
and the house of Jacob
will possess its inheritance.
18 The house of Jacob will be a fire
and the house of Joseph a flame;
the house of Esau will be stubble,
and they will set it on fire and consume it.
There will be no survivors
from the house of Esau."
The LORD has spoken.
Promises of the covenant is for spiritual Israel (Jews & Gentiles & all)
Luke 1:29-33
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."


Although I do not believe physical Israel to be any fulfillment of prophesy.
I do think the antichrist & f. prophet to be from Islam, so in this regard I believe Israel to be in better standing with God, especially if she has Messianic Jews (15,000 now) within her.
No one can say for sure if Jews will accept the faith of the O.T. saints. Just as a Muslim may, but it doesn't look that way so far.
If 144,000 Jews convert, I may think differently. But I leave the answer up to God.
Love & Peace.:)

ShirleyFord
Oct 25th 2007, 11:39 PM
I would say none of the above. I do not believe that this prophecy which was given to Israel has come to pass as of yet.

When then do you believe it will come to pass?

I agree with you that 1948 was not the fulfillment of "the fig tree pararable" of Matthew 24. I also agree that 1948 was not a fulfillment of any prophecy in either the OT or NT that I have been able to find. But then I believe that Jesus, a literal, full-bloodied natural Jew according to the flesh, a descendent of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David, fulfilled every prophecy God made to OT Israel that had not already been fulfilled when He arrived on the scene. But I'm aware that you disagree.

So when exactly, what event, has to happen do you believe before God can make good on His promises that He made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David?


Shirley

losthorizon
Oct 25th 2007, 11:39 PM
So you do think it is mere coincidence that a state of Israel is living on at least part of the land God promised ancient Israel?
As I stated in an earlier thread – I don’t think there is much that is coincidental in history. That there exists a secular nation called Israel in the “holy land” today is God’s will just as it was His will that the American colonies would throw off the yoke of England and became a nation in the 18th Century. The Bible does not mention either of these historical God-ordained events in Holy Writ but they are part of His divine intervention .

ShirleyFord
Oct 26th 2007, 12:45 AM
Although I do not believe physical Israel to be any fulfillment of prophesy.
I do think the antichrist & f. prophet to be from Islam, so in this regard I believe Israel to be in better standing with God, especially if she has Messianic Jews (15,000 now) within her.


There are some in Israel called "Messianic Jews" since they are looking for their Promised Messiah but reject Jesus as their Messiah or that He will ever be their Messiah.

If this is what you believe that puts Israel in better standing than non-Jewish countries in the Middle East, then you should know that the Islam religion teaches a coming Promised Messiah the same as the religion of Judaism does.

But if you mean by "Messianic Jews", those Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah and believe that He has already come the first time, then just about every nation in the world would have a good standing with God since there probably are Christians in just about every known nation there is with America at the top or very near the top of the list with the number of those professing Christ.

Shirley

My heart's Desire
Oct 26th 2007, 02:27 AM
As I stated in an earlier thread – I don’t think there is much that is coincidental in history. That there exists a secular nation called Israel in the “holy land” today is God’s will just as it was His will that the American colonies would throw off the yoke of England and became a nation in the 18th Century. The Bible does not mention either of these historical God-ordained events in Holy Writ but they are part of His divine intervention .

How about the fact that Israel/Isaac through out the Bible were/have been God's Chosen People?

Allegra
Oct 26th 2007, 02:30 AM
There are some in Israel called "Messianic Jews" since they are looking for their Promised Messiah but reject Jesus as their Messiah or that He will ever be their Messiah.

If this is what you believe that puts Israel in better standing than non-Jewish countries in the Middle East, then you should know that the Islam religion teaches a coming Promised Messiah the same as the religion of Judaism does.

But if you mean by "Messianic Jews", those Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah and believe that He has already come the first time, then just about every nation in the world would have a good standing with God since there probably are Christians in just about every known nation there is with America at the top or very near the top of the list with the number of those professing Christ.

Shirley
Yes Shirley, on a national level that's true. There are even Christians in Iran. But nations that do not separate Church & State & who are predominantly Muslim, politically their leaders want the whole world to convert to Islam. I'm not saying the whole nation would be destroyed (Iran) but the Christians there might wind up as collateral damage for a false religion that I believe the Lord is against. I'm not talking about the Sodom & Gomorrah effect when God would spare the whole city if there were even 10 righteous found there.
Now as far as Israel goes, the Messianic Jews I was referring to ARE Jews for Jesus. I am aware of the other group, I think they are called Messianic Zionists.
My point was that I think any war Islam starts against Israel will not succeed in the long run. Not bc Israel is so consecrated, but bc Allah is not God. I think eventually our God will reckon will him too & his followers(And it might be in the form of war-not just going to hell when they die.)

I speak like this bc my 1st husband was Lebanese. A druid(sp). I know, although in 1975 I didn't know or care, but he really spoke as if Allah was God. How sad though, they were duped by a false prophet.
Well, I hope that makes sense- the way I explain my view of Islam. 2 horns of the false prophet ARE perhaps Sunni & Shiite?

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 02:56 AM
How about the fact that Israel/Isaac through out the Bible were/have been God's Chosen People?
Who are God's "Chosen People" today? Who recognizes and submits to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ? Who is God’s “chosen generation” and “holy nation” today – the body of Christ (Christians) or the physical (and secular) nation of Israel? (see 1 Peter 2:9)

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:04 AM
Lost Horizon
Would you recognise that the Olivet prophecy contains elements fulfilled in AD70?
As I stated in an earlier thread – I don’t think there is much that is coincidental in history. That there exists a secular nation called Israel in the “holy land” today is God’s will just as it was His will that the American colonies would throw off the yoke of England and became a nation in the 18th Century. The Bible does not mention either of these historical God-ordained events in Holy Writ but they are part of His divine intervention .If AD70 and 1948 are not mentioned then what value are they as prophetical witness?

Yes God rules in "the kingdoms of men" but the difference is that the USA is no more part of God's purpose or witness than Belgium or Paraguay, wheras, according to God, Israel is. Deuteronomy 28 doesn't foretell the post AD70 history of the USA, or Belgium...
God bless
Steven

Everyone,
I get the impression that there is an slight element of 'politically correct' or perhaps 'theologically correct' thinking going on on this thread, based on the assumption - which the OT contradicts - that prophecy and salvation are the same purpose. This is the exact opposite of what Isaiah etc says about prophecy, so why is this assumption so common?

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:05 AM
LH
Who are God's "Chosen People" today? Who recognizes and submits to the Messiahship of Jesus Christ? Who is God’s “chosen generation” and “holy nation” today – the body of Christ (Christians) or the physical (and secular) nation of Israel? (see 1 Peter 2:9)again - same assumption - that prophecy and salvation are the same thing.
S

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 03:22 AM
Lost Horizon
Would you recognise that the Olivet prophecy contains elements fulfilled in AD70?If AD70 and 1948 are not mentioned then what value are they as prophetical witness?

If by “Olivet prophecy” you mean the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, then yes there were “elements fulfilled in AD70”, i.e., "There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down" (Matt. 24:2).


Everyone,
I get the impression that there is an slight element of 'politically correct' or perhaps 'theologically correct' thinking going on on this thread, based on the assumption - which the OT contradicts - that prophecy and salvation are the same purpose. This is the exact opposite of what Isaiah etc says about prophecy, so why is this assumption so common?
I think there is biblically correct exegesis being posted on this thread and a bit of dispensational lore. If you think I am confusing “prophecy and salvation” I will be happy to discuss further if you want to present your case.:)

My heart's Desire
Oct 26th 2007, 03:22 AM
Lost Horizon
Would you recognise that the Olivet prophecy contains elements fulfilled in AD70?If AD70 and 1948 are not mentioned then what value are they as prophetical witness?

Yes God rules in "the kingdoms of men" but the difference is that the USA is no more part of God's purpose or witness than Belgium or Paraguay, wheras, according to God, Israel is. Deuteronomy 28 doesn't foretell the post AD70 history of the USA, or Belgium...
God bless
Steven

Everyone,
I get the impression that there is an slight element of 'politically correct' or perhaps 'theologically correct' thinking going on on this thread, based on the assumption - which the OT contradicts - that prophecy and salvation are the same purpose. This is the exact opposite of what Isaiah etc says about prophecy, so why is this assumption so common?
Hi Steven,
I'm not sure if this is here nor there, but I've always heard that Nations in the Bible are only listed because of or in the relation to Israel. :) Kind of sounded like what you said about God purposes for nations.

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 03:23 AM
LHagain - same assumption - that prophecy and salvation are the same thing.
S
Again, if you think I am confusing “prophecy and salvation” I will be happy to discuss further if you want to present your case.

My heart's Desire
Oct 26th 2007, 03:27 AM
I may not be sure about verses fulfilling 1948 but I see quite a few that can only come about in the Millennial reign of Christ.
Put it this way. If the tribes from Israel are mentioned in the book of Revelation and if a person believes we are in or near the end of time, the return of Jesus, then would it not make sense that the Israeli people are living in their land again, prophecied or not?

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 03:27 AM
LHagain - same assumption - that prophecy and salvation are the same thing.
SDid you post in here something that proves they are not? eg. that passage in Isaiah.

(Rev 19:10 KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:39 AM
Hi Mograce
Did you post in here something that proves they are not? eg. that passage in Isaiah.Yes.
(Rev 19:10 KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.This is about people making the prophecy, i.e. prophets, not about those being prophesied about. Daniel made prophecies about 4 empires none of whom believed in God.
Steven

ShirleyFord
Oct 26th 2007, 03:41 AM
Allegro, I don't believe that God looks on the nation of Iran today any differently than He does modern-day Israel, America, England, Canada, Brazil, Mexico or Cuba. There are Christians in all of these nations just as there are those who reject Christ. Those who reject Christ aren't serving the true God, even though they claim they do and regardless of how religious they are.

It doesn't matter if they call there god, Allah or Jehovah or even God. Jesus said that if they reject Him and His word, their father is the devil and not God in John 8.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Shirley

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:46 AM
Hi LH
If by “Olivet prophecy” you mean the words of Jesus recorded in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21, then yes there were “elements fulfilled in AD70”, i.e., "There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down" (Matt. 24:2).So that proves that God was still using natural Israel as a witness 40 years after having given the kingdom to another nation doesn't it?
I think there is biblically correct exegesis being posted on this thread and a bit of dispensational lore. If you think I am confusing “prophecy and salvation” I will be happy to discuss further if you want to present your case.:)But haven't you just agreed that Israel's role in prophecy continues by quoting Matt24:2 in relation to AD70? :)
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 03:49 AM
I may not be sure about verses fulfilling 1948 but I see quite a few that can only come about in the Millennial reign of Christ.
Put it this way. If the tribes from Israel are mentioned in the book of Revelation and if a person believes we are in or near the end of time, the return of Jesus, then would it not make sense that the Israeli people are living in their land again, prophecied or not?
What do you mean by the “Millennial reign of Christ”? Doesn’t Jesus Christ reign today over His kingdom? Didn’t Paul write that believers were “translated” (past tense) out of the power of darkness “into the kingdom of his dear Son” - in the 1st Century? Doesn’t Scripture tell us that the kingdom of Christ is not some “millennial” promise yet future, but rather a kingdom in the here and now?
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (Col 1:13)

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:49 AM
Hi Shirley
Do you share LostHorizon's view that part of the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in AD70?
Allegro, I don't believe that God looks on the nation of Iran today any differently than He does modern-day Israel, America, England, Canada, Brazil, Mexico or Cuba. Sorry but here is the same problem again - the assumption that salvation and prophecy are the same thing. Which is the opposite of what Isaiah etc. say:

Is48:8 You have never heard, you have never known,
from of old your ear has not been opened.
For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously,
and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
9 “For my name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.


God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:51 AM
Hi Steven,
I'm not sure if this is here nor there, but I've always heard that Nations in the Bible are only listed because of or in the relation to Israel. :) Kind of sounded like what you said about God purposes for nations.Yes, hence no mention of China despite being a greater empire than Babylon. :)
S

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 03:52 AM
What do you mean by the “Millennial reign of Christ”? Doesn’t Jesus Christ reign today over His kingdom? Didn’t Paul write that believers were “translated” (past tense) out of the power of darkness “into the kingdom of his dear Son” - in the 1st Century? Doesn’t Scripture tell us that the kingdom of Christ is not some “millennial” promise yet future, but rather a kingdom in the here and now?
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (Col 1:13)

It's not an either/or. Things rarely are.. ;)

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 03:57 AM
Hi LHSo that proves that God was still using natural Israel as a witness 40 years after having given the kingdom to another nation doesn't it?
It simply proves the prophecy made by Jesus was indeed fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman legions sacked Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War – Not Jesus nor any NT or OT writer made any prophecy about Israel and 1948 AD.

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 03:59 AM
It's not an either/or. Things rarely are.. ;)
Does Jesus Christ reign in His kingdom today?

ShirleyFord
Oct 26th 2007, 04:02 AM
It seems it would be to whatever generation that the prophecy came/comes to pass with. And as is stated here



verse 23 - it says " Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:." Since they are still rejecting Jesus Christ, it seems to me they are still defiling themselves with their trangressions, hence this prophecy has not come to pass as of yet.


This just has not come to pass yet for the nation that the prophecy was given to. Israel.


QD,

It has come to pass for all who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord when they receive His free gift of Salvation of Jesus Christ by faith. And He changes them into new creations and dwells in them by Hiis Spirit.


Shirley

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 04:02 AM
Hi LH :)
It simply proves the prophecy made by Jesus was indeed fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman legions sacked Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War – Not Jesus nor any NT or OT writer made any prophecy about Israel and 1948 AD.Correct, it simply proves the prophecy made by Jesus was indeed fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman legions sacked Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War.

Also correct, it doesn't prove that Jesus nor any NT or OT writer made any prophecy about Israel and 1948 AD, but it proves they could have done. Admitting to the Olivet-AD70 connection blows away all the theologically correct arguments that Israel's role in prophecy finished in AD30.

Now we're left with the agreed fact that God has used Israel as a vehicle for prophecy in the NT era, post Pentecost.
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 04:05 AM
Hi LH :)
Does Jesus Christ reign in His kingdom today?You tell me, I have no fixed opinion on this, do a NT concordance search on "reign" and "kingdom" and see what aspects of the kingdom refer to the present kingdom and what refer to the future kingdom, and we'll let the NT be the judge. ;)
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 04:08 AM
...Admitting to the Olivet-AD70 connection blows away all the theologically correct arguments that Israel's role in prophecy finished in AD30.

Where did I make the "theologically correct argument" that physical Israel had no role in prophecy after 30 AD?

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 04:12 AM
Hi LH :)You tell me, I have no fixed opinion on this, do a NT concordance search on "reign" and "kingdom" and see what aspects of the kingdom refer to the present kingdom and what refer to the future kingdom, and we'll let the NT be the judge. ;)
God bless
Steven
Oh, come now Steven – it’s a simple yes or no question – surely you have an "opinion" – yes? How many kingdoms does Christ have? ;)

ShirleyFord
Oct 26th 2007, 04:13 AM
Hi Shirley
Do you share LostHorizon's view that part of the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in AD70?



Yes Steven, I certainly do believe that the temple has been destroyed. Jesus prophecied it would be. I can't prove that it has since I have never been to Israel or Jerusalem to see for myself that the second temple is no longer standing in Jerusalem. So I have to go by historical data, friends of mine who have been to Jerusalem and from other friends of mine who are Jews and once lived in Israel. And everyone says the same thing. That no temple still stands in Jerusalem. And historical records report its having been destroyed in 70 AD.

My heart's Desire
Oct 26th 2007, 04:31 AM
What do you mean by the “Millennial reign of Christ”? Doesn’t Jesus Christ reign today over His kingdom? Didn’t Paul write that believers were “translated” (past tense) out of the power of darkness “into the kingdom of his dear Son” - in the 1st Century? Doesn’t Scripture tell us that the kingdom of Christ is not some “millennial” promise yet future, but rather a kingdom in the here and now?
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” (Col 1:13)
I'm sure I won't go into that today since I'm sure it goes against Amillennial lore.
Zech.14:16-17
Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17.and it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of host, there will be no rain on them.
The King reigns over His Kingdom.

Allegra
Oct 26th 2007, 04:50 AM
Allegro, I don't believe that God looks on the nation of Iran today any differently than He does modern-day Israel, America, England, Canada, Brazil, Mexico or Cuba. There are Christians in all of these nations just as there are those who reject Christ. Those who reject Christ aren't serving the true God, even though they claim they do and regardless of how religious they are.

It doesn't matter if they call there god, Allah or Jehovah or even God. Jesus said that if they reject Him and His word, their father is the devil and not God in John 8.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Shirley
Yes, but what about the remnant of Israel that God cares about?
I don't think the God of Abraham(our God too) will allow for defeat from Islam. Attacked we were. But I think- never crushed.
I think we should differentiate between good & evil here. Not just who's in Christ at this point.

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 05:51 AM
Hi Shirley :)
Yes Steven, I certainly do believe that the temple has been destroyed. Jesus prophecied it would be. I can't prove that it has since I have never been to Israel or Jerusalem to see for myself that the second temple is no longer standing in Jerusalem. So I have to go by historical data, friends of mine who have been to Jerusalem and from other friends of mine who are Jews and once lived in Israel. And everyone says the same thing. That no temple still stands in Jerusalem. And historical records report its having been destroyed in 70 AD.Thanks. By stating the bit underlined you have just agreed with Lost Horizon that Israel/Jerusalem did not stop being part of prophecy at Pentecost. Now the onus is on you have to prove that other prophecies which can refer to Israel/Jerusalem after AD70 don't refer to Israel/Jerusalem. For example the onus is on you to offer an alternative explanation to Matt23:39 than the obvious one.

Look forward to see your alternative explanation ;)
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 26th 2007, 05:57 AM
Hi LH :)

Hi LH :)You tell me, I have no fixed opinion on this, do a NT concordance search on "reign" and "kingdom" and see what aspects of the kingdom refer to the present kingdom and what refer to the future kingdom, and we'll let the NT be the judge. ;)
God bless
StevenOh, come now Steven – it’s a simple yes or no question – surely you have an "opinion" – yes? How many kingdoms does Christ have? ;)

Again, you tell me. Is it a simple yes/no question? Is it so black and white as that? Must it be an either/or? My opinion, well FWIW my opinion is that there's far too little looking at the Bible first, and then forming an opinion. I could quote what the NT says on the subject, but it might disagree? Then what would we do...??
God bless
Steven

Btw - the thread OP is still 1948 equals prophecy fulfilled? I supplied De28:50 linked by Daniel to AD70, leaving the rest of De28 post-AD70, some probably post-1948.

losthorizon
Oct 26th 2007, 12:36 PM
Hi LH :)

Again, you tell me. Is it a simple yes/no question? Is it so black and white as that? Must it be an either/or? My opinion, well FWIW my opinion is that there's far too little looking at the Bible first, and then forming an opinion. I could quote what the NT says on the subject, but it might disagree? Then what would we do...??
God bless
Steven

That’s not much of an answer, Steven. You know what they say – no guts, no glory. ;) You still haven’t presented your case to demonstrate that I am confusing “prophecy and salvation”. Do you have one to present or were you just presenting a “red herring” to avoid other topics?

And what about the question to you – “How many kingdoms does Christ have”? And I am still waiting for you to point out where I made the "theologically correct argument" that physical Israel had no role in prophecy after 30 AD? Can you please point out where I made that statement? :)

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 02:14 PM
Hi Shirley :)Thanks. By stating the bit underlined you have just agreed with Lost Horizon that Israel/Jerusalem did not stop being part of prophecy at Pentecost. Now the onus is on you have to prove that other prophecies which can refer to Israel/Jerusalem after AD70 don't refer to Israel/Jerusalem. For example the onus is on you to offer an alternative explanation to Matt23:39 than the obvious one.

Look forward to see your alternative explanation ;)
Jesus is quoting Ps 118 and all the gospels record it. Luke 13:33 specifically sets the time that Jesus said this as being 3 days before His arrest. That ties it to the Sabbath just before His triumphal entry when the people did shout Hosana and blessed Him as their King. Jesus is thus announcing that David's prophecy is come to pass - which the disciples at that time didn't really understand.

(Psa 118:22-29 KJV) The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. {23} This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. {24} This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. {25} Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. {26} Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. {27} God is the LORD, which hath showed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar. {28} Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee. {29} O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Jesus is announcing that this day of salvation was come. And if those men who are rejecting Him as the Messiah do not make this confession, the day of salvation will have been missed by them because God is going to depart from the temple and leave them desolate. Which is what the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple would signify to them when it came.

This is not a prediction of a 2nd opportunity for salvation for them at His 2nd coming, rather it is the only salvation they were promised that they are about to forsake by plotting His crucifixion. The very next day the people proclaimed this passage from Ps 118 in the streets of Jerusalem, hailing Him as the King of Israel.

What is predictive is that Jerusalem will not see any other coming in the name of the Lord from that day forward. Jesus is their only Messiah and if they do not believe in Him as the One prophecied to come, there will be no other opportunity coming from then on.

We know that Jesus is coming back to bring us our salvation and we eagerly await His return. Israel who remains in unbelief however will never know that Hope. That is what the passage is wanting them to understand.

(Psa 118:24 KJV) This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

What day? The day Salvation came to Israel.

David Taylor
Oct 26th 2007, 03:03 PM
Who and What?

Isaiah 49:7 "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages"




When?

II Corinthians 6:2 "(For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) "

Steven3
Oct 27th 2007, 03:06 AM
Hi LH :)
That’s not much of an answer, Steven. You know what they say – no guts, no glory. ;) I don't need the glory, I'd prefer the NT to decide.
You still haven’t presented your case to demonstrate that I am confusing “prophecy and salvation”. Do you have one to present or were you just presenting a “red herring” to avoid other topics? I obviously don't, and shouldn't claim to know every subtlty of someone else's beliefs, I barely know my own ;), but I see, and this is a generalization, people having difficulty with the idea that God can (a) reject Israel till the full number of the Gentiles come in, (b) simultaneously continue to use Israel as a vehicle for prophecy. Therefore I see some people having some confusion between (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of God's purpose. We do disagree on this correct? Some of us think there's a direct linkage, some don't. I have quoted one specimen from Isaiah clearly showing that God's purpose in prophecy continues despite Israel's (Sennacherib period) rejection and disobedience, for "my name's sake", but I could have listed dozens of similar verses - even from Exodus. This has always been the case.


And what about the question to you – “How many kingdoms does Christ have”? Your question assumes the answer, the question assumes the kingdom cannot have two aspects, the answer must be either "one kingdom" or "two kingdoms", "yes" or "no". So if the question assumes the answer, it doesn't need an answer does it?

And I am still waiting for you to point out where I made the "theologically correct argument" that physical Israel had no role in prophecy after 30 AD? Can you please point out where I made that statement? :)You didn't make that statement, I made that statement. I said that recognising Israel's role in prophecy at AD70 negates the theologically correct argument that physical Israel has no role in prophecy after 30AD.

Back to OP: If God can use Israel in AD70, why not in the 19 centuries of scattering, the 1948 gathering, or when Christ returns? This is what the OP is about isn't it? :)
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 27th 2007, 03:20 AM
Hi Mograce
Luke 13:33 specifically sets the time that Jesus said this as being 3 days before His arrest. Sorry, no. This has already been suggested twice, and disproven twice, on this thread. Please compare Gospel of Matthew where the "O Jerusalem" prophecy (Matt23:37-39) is after Palm Sunday (Matt21:15).

Jesus gave his parables more than once, so Luke 13:33-35 is an advance telling of the "O Jerusalem" prophecy, but all it tells us is that Jesus already knew before Palm Sunday (Luke19) that it wasn't going to be the fulfillment and that those crying "Hosanna" would soon by crying "Barabbas".

Besides which, context should tell us that even without Christ repeating it after Palm Sunday Palm Sunday wasn't a fulfillment because of the angry way Palm Sunday ended - see Luke19:41-44, 20:9-19. The Jews didn't welcome Jesus on Palm Sunday - they rejected him because he didn't come in their terms (taking the kingdom by force - driving out the Romans, jumping off the pinnacle of the temple to be caught by angels, giving them manna, etc).

Sorry, Matt23:39 is still unfulfilled.
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Oct 27th 2007, 03:24 AM
Hi David :)
Who and What?

Isaiah 49:7 "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages"




When?

II Corinthians 6:2 "(For Isaiah saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) "

Yes.

But what has this got to do with whether physical Israel is still a vehicle for unfulfilled prophecy?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Oct 27th 2007, 04:05 AM
Hi LH :)I don't need the glory, I'd prefer the NT to decide.I obviously don't, and shouldn't claim to know every subtlty of someone else's beliefs, I barely know my own ;), but I see, and this is a generalization, people having difficulty with the idea that God can (a) reject Israel till the full number of the Gentiles come in, (b) simultaneously continue to use Israel as a vehicle for prophecy. Therefore I see some people having some confusion between (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of God's purpose. We do disagree on this correct...
You tell me- you are the one making the accusation. I have stated my position more than once - God rejected those physical Jews who rejected their Messiah. Jesus took the kingdom from them and gave it to His “spiritual nation” (the body of Christ). The Jews who “obeyed from the heart that doctrine delivered” (the Jewish remnant in the 1st Century) where "added by the Lord" to His church. Within some few years after the “Day of Pentecost”, the Gentiles who obeyed this same “gospel of Christ” were also added to the church of God. God’s “holy nation” today is the church of God (both Jew and Gentile), the secular unbelieving nation of Israel is not God's holy nation - He only has ONE holy nation. All spiritual blessing in this world today are given only to those who are “in Christ” – those who make up His church, the body of Christ. This is not a hard concept. Do you agree or disagree with my outline above?


Your question assumes the answer, the question assumes the kingdom cannot have two aspects, the answer must be either "one kingdom" or "two kingdoms", "yes" or "no". So if the question assumes the answer, it doesn't need an answer does it?
And your answer is…


You didn't make that statement, I made that statement. I said that recognising Israel's role in prophecy at AD70 negates the theologically correct argument that physical Israel has no role in prophecy after 30AD.
Then the question goes begging – what does the year 30 AD have to do with our discussion? You appear to be arguing against yourself but neither one of you is winning. ;) No one on this thread denies that Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans but He never prophesied that the Jews would return to Palestine in 1948 AD.

Steven3
Oct 27th 2007, 06:13 AM
Hi LH :)
You tell me- you are the one making the accusation.Do we really have to use words such as "accusation"? It makes this sound so combative, I don't want to make "accusations" of any kind, all I said was

Originally Posted by Steven3 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1422551#post1422551)
Hi LH :)I don't need the glory, I'd prefer the NT to decide.I obviously don't, and shouldn't claim to know every subtlty of someone else's beliefs, I barely know my own ;), but I see, and this is a generalization, people having difficulty with the idea that God can (a) reject Israel till the full number of the Gentiles come in, (b) simultaneously continue to use Israel as a vehicle for prophecy. Therefore I see some people having some confusion between (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of God's purpose. We do disagree on this correct...

As I said I may be wrong but I still see some people, not anyone in particular, having some confusion between (a) salvational and (b) prophetical aspects of God's purpose.

I thought all we were trying to was work out whether De28 - which Daniel relates to AD70, or Matt23:37-39 can perhaps contain anything related to 1948.
I have stated my position more than once - God rejected those physical Jews who rejected their Messiah. Jesus took the kingdom from them and gave it to His “spiritual nation” (the body of Christ). The Jews who “obeyed from the heart that doctrine delivered” (the Jewish remnant in the 1st Century) where "added by the Lord" to His church. Within some few years after the “Day of Pentecost”, the Gentiles who obeyed this same “gospel of Christ” were also added to the church of God. God’s “holy nation” today is the church of God (both Jew and Gentile), the secular unbelieving nation of Israel is not God's holy nation - He only has ONE holy nation. All spiritual blessing in this world today are given only to those who are “in Christ” – those who make up His church, the body of Christ. This is not a hard concept. Do you agree or disagree with my outline above?Sure, why not? :) But gain that isn't that salvational, so what has this got to do with the OP about prophecy? or whether when God gave Palestine to Israel in 1948/1967 it is or isn't in fulfillment of De28?
Then the question goes begging – what does the year 30 AD have to do with our discussion? You appear to be arguing against yourself but neither one of you is winning. ;) No one on this thread denies that Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the RomansWell some on this thread, no not you, did earlier appear to claim that all prophecy about Israel finished at Pentecost, so that's the point, if 70AD is prophesied why cannot 1948 be prophesied. If it can be prophesied, then why are we dragging in verses about the Jews having refused Christ? What's the relevance to the OP?
God bless
Steven

cwb
Oct 27th 2007, 10:11 AM
When then do you believe it will come to pass?

I agree with you that 1948 was not the fulfillment of "the fig tree pararable" of Matthew 24. I also agree that 1948 was not a fulfillment of any prophecy in either the OT or NT that I have been able to find. But then I believe that Jesus, a literal, full-bloodied natural Jew according to the flesh, a descendent of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David, fulfilled every prophecy God made to OT Israel that had not already been fulfilled when He arrived on the scene. But I'm aware that you disagree.

So when exactly, what event, has to happen do you believe before God can make good on His promises that He made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and David?


Shirley

I believe the passage in Ezekiel 37 will come to pass when Christ returns to earth.

losthorizon
Oct 27th 2007, 01:06 PM
I thought all we were trying to was work out whether De28 - which Daniel relates to AD70, or Matt23:37-39 can perhaps contain anything related to 1948.

Steven - I would think you (or anyone else) would have to strain hard to accommodate a 1948/1967 date in Deuteronomy 28. The chapter presents the promises and threats of God to the Hebrew nation. I have no problem understanding in De 28 the reference to the literal and complete destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD because of that nation’s rejection of the Christ.

And I have no problem understanding that Matt 23: 39 could be a reference to an acceptance of Christ as their Messiah by a large number of Jews at some point yet future but there is no ryhme or reason to read into that passage the years 1948 or 1967. The Jews acceptance of their Messiah is not dependent on some reconstituted "Davidic kingdom" in Israel – it can and will be accomplished through the gospel of Christ if it is to be accomplished.


Sure, why not? But gain that isn't that salvational, so what has this got to do with the OP about prophecy? or whether when God gave Palestine to Israel in 1948/1967 it is or isn't in fulfillment of De28?I think the salvation point being made is the fact that God rejected physical Israel and today the children of God are those Jews and Gentiles who constitute the body of Christ. This reality will be so “until He comes again” at which time he will “deliver up the kingdom” to the Father and God will become all in all.
"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:3).

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24
Well some on this thread, no not you, did earlier appear to claim that all prophecy about Israel finished at Pentecost, so that's the point, if 70AD is prophesied why cannot 1948 be prophesied. If it can be prophesied, then why are we dragging in verses about the Jews having refused Christ? What's the relevance to the OP?I would place no limits on God’s prophecies but I find absolutely no mention anywhere in Holy Writ of a 1948/1967 prophecy. But for the sake of this discussion I would be happy to look at any scriptures you think you can fit into your view. I would, however reject De 28 – it’s just not there. ;)

Mograce2U
Oct 27th 2007, 02:57 PM
Steven3,
Deut 28, which continues to be a theme to the end of the book, lays out the pattern by which God will work in Israel as they dwell in the land they are about to enter. The Abrahamic covenant is thus renewed in the covenant of Moses. It especially gives us the outline for the Babylon Capitivity, after which the nation was restored to the land and to faith.

But in the new covenant these things took on greater spiritual import and the judgment Jesus prophesied came AFTER the people were first brought into that covenant. The people were delivered before the judgment in 70 AD fell. Who was to be restored after that? When the remnant was already saved? Those who were not slain in the judgment went into captivity and Israel was dispersed into the nations - in UNBELIEF. They were not the witnesses for Messiah anymore as they had been before He arrived. No that privilege passed to those who BELIEVED.

Deut 28 specifically speaks of a restoration that comes after judgment only when they turn to the Lord. There is no restoration of the promise given to Abraham which can come apart from that. The people must repent. But Jesus is the last faithful Son of Israel who came before the judgment and the inheritance was given to Him. Those who were cut off therefore will remain cut off from the promise until they come to faith in Him. There is no turning to the Lord for Israel, or any other people, without turning to Jesus and putting one's faith in Him.

Therefore 1948/ 1967 has nothing to do with a promise remaining of being restored to the land yet not to faith. Salvation & prophecy are thus fulfilled together in Christ - you can't have one without the other!

Merton
Oct 27th 2007, 09:30 PM
Theb Bible theme is that Christ will return to gather the faithful.

any other gathering is the false hope of the flesh church which wants to have its flesh and the flesh of the Jew to live before God as inheriters of the promises.


It is the same mistake that Abram made all over again.


Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Ishmael was the evidence of unbelief of those who heard Gods promises.

(they laughed, but who mocked?)

God made something of Ishmael in the past but we should not expect that God will do so again because Christ crucified the flesh and the lusts thereof.

This being one of the foundational truths of the faith which in being so little understood by believers, illustrates why so many believers want Israel of the flesh to live and be something without Christ.

In a mysterious way, the hopes and aspirations of the hearts of the believers, no matter what their condition, seem to be the spiritual driving force behind the powers which emerge in the world.

This can only mean that all of the fleshy imaginations in the hearts of the believers must be crushed before Christ will return to rescue them, which rescue is really from themselves.

Think on it, and relate it personally to ones own present circumstances, for it may help you to repent where ones own situation is troubling you, which can be because of your own making and you want God to deliver you but He will not, until you realise the truth of it and repent.

Merton.

losthorizon
Oct 27th 2007, 10:06 PM
Why does mankind need a re-built Temple with revived bloody animal sacrifices for salvific purposes? Why do we need a resurrected Mosaic system with the Levitical priesthood that ended at the Cross? Jesus is “the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth" (Romans 10:4).

Jesus cried out "It is finished!" At the cross the purpose for animal sacrifices ceased forever for God's people, never to be instituted again as a replacement for His shed blood? We are warned about those who dishonor "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing," and to "do despite unto the Spirit of grace." (Hebrews 10:29). Under Dispensationalism the old Mosaic system will be functioning once again in a re-built temple – why? Will it be possible for the “blood of bulls and goats” to “take away sin”? Are we going to have two paths to salvation, (1) the atonement of Christ, and (2) the revised OT Levitical sacrificial system? If your answer is 'no' why then do we need #2?
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin." (Hebrews 10:4).

quiet dove
Oct 27th 2007, 11:56 PM
I have heard from many post-tribbers and pre-tribbers alike that when Israel became a state in 1948, it was prophecy fulfilled. I personally have not seen any such prophecy in the scriptures. I was wondering if those who believe that what happened in 1948 was prophecy fulfilled could post which specific prophecy in scripture was fulfilled in 1948. I might change my view on this particular issue if I can see the exact prophecy that was fulfilled in 1948. I have just one request though. That is that this thread does not turn into another debate on the timing of the rapture. There are always plenty of other threads for that.

Just your friendly reminder of the OP. :)

ShirleyFord
Oct 28th 2007, 01:53 AM
I believe the passage in Ezekiel 37 will come to pass when Christ returns to earth.

I can understand why you wouldn't believe that Ezekiel 37 was not fulfilled in 1948 because of this verse in particular:

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

I believe this verse was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ:

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Matthew 27

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Just a thought.


Shirley