PDA

View Full Version : Transfiguration



Debra R
Oct 12th 2007, 12:22 AM
Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?

What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom? That may be my main question. Hope these aren't silly questions :saint:. I've looked up a few commentaries but none seemed to answer my questions. Just wondering if there are some deeper things here. :)

Thanks and God bless :hug:

walked
Oct 12th 2007, 12:32 AM
hmm, good questions...I cant wait to read the opinions posted here to the question.
I'de like to give an answer now but, honestly haven't thought or studied on this topic.

God bless you.

markedward
Oct 12th 2007, 06:14 AM
The "coming in His kingdom" event is synonymous with the "coming on the clouds" event (see Daniel 7). Jesus told the members of the Sanhedrin that they would see the "Son of Man coming on the clouds," and He told it to them after His transfiguration. Jesus also said "this generation will not pass away" before the "Son of Man comes on the clouds." The transfiguration was not Jesus "coming in His kingdom" nor "coming on the clouds."

Steven3
Oct 12th 2007, 07:01 AM
Hi Debra :)
I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Is this prompted by that very thoughtprovoking question, (by Bing I think) on the Mary prays for us? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101853) thread that Jesus was breaking the Isaiah command against talking to dead people?

Firstly, again, he does on the way down the mountain in Matthew tell them it was a "vision" (ORAMA) of the kingdom - the word always means either (A) a vision of a real event in the future or (B) of a non-real event.

Of those two options I today lean towards (A) that the vision was a window into the future, despite the comment, in Luke I think, that he was talking about the exodos he was shortly to accomplish at Jerusalem. That's Luke's eyewitness (Peter or John, since Luke must have interviewed one of the two survivors if his claim in Luke 1:2 is true) eye-view rather than Moses and Elijah's eye view. But tomorrow I might lean back to (B) that it was a vision of a non-real event. :)

But I don't have days when I lean towards Jesus have raised them from Sheol for a chat and then sent them back down. ;). Likewise we know they weren't in heaven because Jesus taught what Luther taught about the dead being asleep (John 3:13 etc.). Which was the same as God promised Moses - God told him he would "rest with his fathers" (Deut), which seeing as Jacob "went down to Sheol" (Genesis) meant Moses was going to Jacob.


Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration? Did Jesus himself need to talk to Moses and Elijah? Given ch.16, unlikely. He could talk to his Father at any time - as he did in Gethsemane. The vision was specificially for the 3 disciples to show them that he was superior to the Law and the Prophets, and that Moses and Elijah (no matter their mysterious deaths and burial) could only come to the Father through him (1Co15:23, Heb11:39 again)


And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"? What it always means :), the Son of Man coming into his kingdom. Check out the other NT uses of the same phrase. He doesn't come twice to two different kingdoms.

So this is why (today) I believe the vision was (A) a vision of the future - two or three other examples in the Bible. Paul and Ananias being the best known. In which case in the future Moses and Elijah needed to talk to Jesus, not him to them.
God bless :)
Steven

Serve-N-Protect
Oct 12th 2007, 07:44 AM
Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

I like this question. But instead of going into a lot intellectual banter, I would like to give you my take like this;

Regarding those two (Moses and Elijah), I feel a happiness that brings me to tears thinking about it. Jesus had been talking to the both of them all of their lives. These were two men who suffered greatly in their lives, and in their bodies for him. I would imagine these two were dying to look upon him, considering they could not do so in their lives on earth. Now in the state Jesus was in as a man, God was in a form that men were able to see and look upon him. I think he was giving them a gift to show himself for them to see him from the perspective that he may have seen them in their lives.

I like the imagery of how they were just having a nice chat as old friends. Prior to this encounter, I'm sure all communications with him in their lives here on earth, they were prostrate eating the ground. But now here we see them just talking.

The ability to perfectly breath comes to mind from these verses. Breathing so perfectly that I could just lay back and float. Not to say that I can, but is how I imagine it being if I were there. Sorry if that sounds weird, but for me it is part of my identification with these verses.

OK just a touch of intellectual mumbo... Jesus, as usual, was constantly establishing with the men he brought, that he was God. This meeting was just another way in a whole string of miracles that he did this. Also, their eye witness account, and following testimony of the events, further establish this with the rest of the world as well. After all, imagine a Scribe or Pharisee in those days, or even today, hearing that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, and what the significance of those two are to such a Scribe and/or Pharisee.

ShirleyFord
Oct 12th 2007, 10:58 AM
Peter writes about that day when Christ was transfigured during His earthly ministry that he, James and John were eyewitnesses to.

2 Peter 1

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Jesus coming in His kingdom that He refers to in Matt. 16 happened at His ascension, not at His transfiguration.

Steven3
Oct 12th 2007, 11:39 AM
Hello all
The kingdom exists in part now, but the "coming of the kingdom" refers to when Jesus comes in his kingdom.

A. James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?
This is long after the ascension yet James could not say "Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?" if they were already in the kingdom.

B. Compare the Lord's prayer:
Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Not your will be done in heaven as it isn't done on earth. Come means come.

C. Matthew 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom
Abraham is still dead according to Hebrews 11:13,39-40, so the kingdom hasn't happened yet. Also this requires preaching to the Gentiles take place first.

D. Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Then inherit, refers to a future event after the resurrection and judgment.

E. Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
Until it comes means until it comes. Because while he is in heaven he is a high priest - who cannot drink when when on duty. This teaches that Christ will come again.


F. Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”
Until that day means it hasn't happened yet. It didn't happen 43 days later, nor in AD70.

G. The physical coming of the kingdom has physical signs:
Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, then you know that the kingdom of God is near.
We haven't seen all those things happen yet.

H. And the disciples believed Christ would come again to establish his kingdom:
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”7 It is not for you to know (see Mark 13:32).. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

I. 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom:
Therefore Jesus is to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. He hasn't yet judged the living or dead so the kingdom hasn't appeared either.

Conclusion : Christ has not yet come in his kingdom. Jesus is really coming again to establish his kingdom.

God bless :)
Steven

Phil Fourie
Oct 12th 2007, 12:17 PM
I will try to answer, just something interesting someone pointed out to me the other day.

Jesus = The Word
Moses = Received the Law
Elijah = Prophet

Jesus came to bring the law into fulfilment as the prophecies stated in the Old Testament.

Regarding the Kingdom of Christ. The prophecies also state that He will come again to sit on the throne of His father David, this is in Jerusalem and will happen in the millennium of peace. In this kingdom, the Word (Lamb, Son of God) will reign, the whole world will be under His law as the prophecies stated.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:32

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zechariah 14:9

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zechariah 14:17

I can't wait:pp

God bless
Phil

Steven3
Oct 12th 2007, 12:23 PM
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zechariah 14:9:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp

stacie1872
Oct 12th 2007, 12:26 PM
www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-17-1-7.htm (http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-17-1-7.htm)

this was an interesting article that i found online. I had never really thought about the scriptural signifigance of the transfiguration and the appearing of Elijah and Moses. I've learned something today. Thanks. :pp

The explanation in the link that i provided above seems like a good one to me.

God Bless
stacie

AlainaJ
Oct 12th 2007, 03:42 PM
[quote=Debra R;1408179]Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah?

I don't think he had a need to- perhaps it was to show His power to the disciples?


For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Again- I think the purpose was to show Jesus was who he claimed to be- the Son of God.


Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This can be a sticky one- but here is my opinion:) Jesus is telling some of these people they will not die, but receive eternal life. Why? Because they will beleive in Him as the Son of God.

John.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4769415)

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.So here we see, that Jesus will in fact give eternal life. A beleiver never really dies......Jesus is speaking of the Soul.
John.17 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4847424)

[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?
It is salvation.:) Jesus tells his disciples the Kingdom of God is at hand. All Christians are born again from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

Matt.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4387603)

[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.Matt.4 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4389903)

[17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt.9 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4412418)

[35] And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom?
To show that Jesus is God. His kingdom has indeed come.

God Bless:)

Toolman
Oct 12th 2007, 05:58 PM
Debra,

I believe that Moses and Elijah physically represent "The Law and Prophets", which both testify of Jesus as the Messiah.

Moses represents the Law and Elijah the Prophets.

That is what I think the main purpose of the transfiguration was, was yet another confirmation that Jesus was/is the Messiah.

DPMartin
Oct 12th 2007, 07:25 PM
Debra


The transfiguration included the most trusted witnesses of God to the people of Israel. Moses mainly by hearing (He gave the law by hearing the Word of God) and a most trusted profit Elijah (a seer) witnessing the Word of God by seeing (in the Spirit) and the event being a witness to the three must trusted of Jesus (at the time) that this is He who they (Moses and Elijah) witnessed of. A matter of Faith for them and us, and a matter of record, or fact.

They saw the risen Christ they witness Jesus rased from the dead, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father. Did He not come into His Kingdom? Being the first of.

The transfiguration and the witnessing of Jesus in the Kingdom at lest story wise do not seem related to me. It seems to be 2 separate issues, or events, other than related to Jesus.

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:32 AM
:)Hi Steven, no I didn't read that other thread.

I had forgotten about Luke's account, now that is very interesting. I'll have to think on that awhile. :)

Luke 9:29 And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.

30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,

31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.




Hi Debra :)Is this prompted by that very thoughtprovoking question, (by Bing I think) on the Mary prays for us? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101853) thread that Jesus was breaking the Isaiah command against talking to dead people?

Firstly, again, he does on the way down the mountain in Matthew tell them it was a "vision" (ORAMA) of the kingdom - the word always means either (A) a vision of a real event in the future or (B) of a non-real event.

Of those two options I today lean towards (A) that the vision was a window into the future, despite the comment, in Luke I think, that he was talking about the exodos he was shortly to accomplish at Jerusalem. That's Luke's eyewitness (Peter or John, since Luke must have interviewed one of the two survivors if his claim in Luke 1:2 is true) eye-view rather than Moses and Elijah's eye view. But tomorrow I might lean back to (B) that it was a vision of a non-real event. :)

But I don't have days when I lean towards Jesus have raised them from Sheol for a chat and then sent them back down. ;). Likewise we know they weren't in heaven because Jesus taught what Luther taught about the dead being asleep (John 3:13 etc.). Which was the same as God promised Moses - God told him he would "rest with his fathers" (Deut), which seeing as Jacob "went down to Sheol" (Genesis) meant Moses was going to Jacob.

Did Jesus himself need to talk to Moses and Elijah? Given ch.16, unlikely. He could talk to his Father at any time - as he did in Gethsemane. The vision was specificially for the 3 disciples to show them that he was superior to the Law and the Prophets, and that Moses and Elijah (no matter their mysterious deaths and burial) could only come to the Father through him (1Co15:23, Heb11:39 again)

What it always means :), the Son of Man coming into his kingdom. Check out the other NT uses of the same phrase. He doesn't come twice to two different kingdoms.

So this is why (today) I believe the vision was (A) a vision of the future - two or three other examples in the Bible. Paul and Ananias being the best known. In which case in the future Moses and Elijah needed to talk to Jesus, not him to them.
God bless :)
Steven

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:37 AM
Thank you Phil :)



I will try to answer, just something interesting someone pointed out to me the other day.

Jesus = The Word
Moses = Received the Law
Elijah = Prophet

Jesus came to bring the law into fulfilment as the prophecies stated in the Old Testament.

Regarding the Kingdom of Christ. The prophecies also state that He will come again to sit on the throne of His father David, this is in Jerusalem and will happen in the millennium of peace. In this kingdom, the Word (Lamb, Son of God) will reign, the whole world will be under His law as the prophecies stated.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:32

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:4

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zechariah 14:9

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zechariah 14:17

I can't wait:pp

God bless
Phil

I can't wait either! :pp

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:39 AM
www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-17-1-7.htm (http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-matthew-17-1-7.htm)

this was an interesting article that i found online. I had never really thought about the scriptural signifigance of the transfiguration and the appearing of Elijah and Moses. I've learned something today. Thanks. :pp

The explanation in the link that i provided above seems like a good one to me.

God Bless
stacie

Thanks Stacie :), I'm going to check that out.

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:43 AM
:)Hi AlainaJ, I do think that was part of it, to show Jesus was who He claimed to be. Thanks for your thoughts. :)



[quote=Debra R;1408179]Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah?

I don't think he had a need to- perhaps it was to show His power to the disciples?


For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Again- I think the purpose was to show Jesus was who he claimed to be- the Son of God.


Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

This can be a sticky one- but here is my opinion:) Jesus is telling some of these people they will not die, but receive eternal life. Why? Because they will beleive in Him as the Son of God.

John.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4769415)

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.So here we see, that Jesus will in fact give eternal life. A beleiver never really dies......Jesus is speaking of the Soul.
John.17 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4847424)

[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?
It is salvation.:) Jesus tells his disciples the Kingdom of God is at hand. All Christians are born again from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

Matt.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4387603)

[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.Matt.4 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4389903)

[17] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt.9 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4412418)

[35] And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom?
To show that Jesus is God. His kingdom has indeed come.

God Bless:)

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:44 AM
Debra,

I believe that Moses and Elijah physically represent "The Law and Prophets", which both testify of Jesus as the Messiah.

Moses represents the Law and Elijah the Prophets.

That is what I think the main purpose of the transfiguration was, was yet another confirmation that Jesus was/is the Messiah.

Hey Toolman :),

I can see that part of it too.

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:47 AM
I like this question. But instead of going into a lot intellectual banter, I would like to give you my take like this;

Regarding those two (Moses and Elijah), I feel a happiness that brings me to tears thinking about it. Jesus had been talking to the both of them all of their lives. These were two men who suffered greatly in their lives, and in their bodies for him. I would imagine these two were dying to look upon him, considering they could not do so in their lives on earth. Now in the state Jesus was in as a man, God was in a form that men were able to see and look upon him. I think he was giving them a gift to show himself for them to see him from the perspective that he may have seen them in their lives.

I like the imagery of how they were just having a nice chat as old friends. Prior to this encounter, I'm sure all communications with him in their lives here on earth, they were prostrate eating the ground. But now here we see them just talking.

The ability to perfectly breath comes to mind from these verses. Breathing so perfectly that I could just lay back and float. Not to say that I can, but is how I imagine it being if I were there. Sorry if that sounds weird, but for me it is part of my identification with these verses.

OK just a touch of intellectual mumbo... Jesus, as usual, was constantly establishing with the men he brought, that he was God. This meeting was just another way in a whole string of miracles that he did this. Also, their eye witness account, and following testimony of the events, further establish this with the rest of the world as well. After all, imagine a Scribe or Pharisee in those days, or even today, hearing that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, and what the significance of those two are to such a Scribe and/or Pharisee.

Thank you :), I was touched by your comments.

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:51 AM
Peter writes about that day when Christ was transfigured during His earthly ministry that he, James and John were eyewitnesses to.

2 Peter 1

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Jesus coming in His kingdom that He refers to in Matt. 16 happened at His ascension, not at His transfiguration.

:)Hi Shirley, I had forgotten about those verses too. Thanks for reminding me.

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:54 AM
Debra


The transfiguration included the most trusted witnesses of God to the people of Israel. Moses mainly by hearing (He gave the law by hearing the Word of God) and a most trusted profit Elijah (a seer) witnessing the Word of God by seeing (in the Spirit) and the event being a witness to the three must trusted of Jesus (at the time) that this is He who they (Moses and Elijah) witnessed of. A matter of Faith for them and us, and a matter of record, or fact.

They saw the risen Christ they witness Jesus rased from the dead, and sits at the Right Hand of the Father. Did He not come into His Kingdom? Being the first of.

The transfiguration and the witnessing of Jesus in the Kingdom at lest story wise do not seem related to me. It seems to be 2 separate issues, or events, other than related to Jesus.

:)Thank you DPMartin for your thoughts.

IBWatching
Oct 13th 2007, 02:25 AM
Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?

What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom? That may be my main question. Hope these aren't silly questions :saint:. I've looked up a few commentaries but none seemed to answer my questions. Just wondering if there are some deeper things here. :)

Thanks and God bless :hug:

The Transfiguration did two things. First, it validated that at some point in the future, Jesus would set up His Kingdom here, on the earth. Secondly, when Jesus Returns to set up that Kingdom, resurrected saints like Moses will have their souls reunited with their bodies in an eternal state. They'll be talking and walking just as they did on the earth before. Look at what Job said:


Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26 "Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27 Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another. My heart faints within me!

Job will be there with Moses also. Jesus showed them Moses because he would be a much stronger validation to a Jew like the disciples. Job believed as a gentile (as did Abraham). That's what the Transfiguration really is about. Jesus gave them (only Peter, James and John...the "some" who would see the kingdom before they died) a vision into the future as a pledge that He would come again.

Dandylionheart
Oct 13th 2007, 05:50 AM
2 PETER 3 [7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men.[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, and a thousand years as one day.[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do ya see how a 1000 yrs to Lord is but one day. All things were created in 6 days and the 7th was a day of rest. Revelations says there will be a 1000 yr period of rest. Most bible authorities say we are nearing the end of that six thousand yrs. Six days? And Christ will return after those 6000 yrs and set up his 1000 yr period of rest. He will set up the kingdom of God which he talked about all through the new testament.

MARK 9 [1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD come with power.[2] AND AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.[7] And there was A CLOUD THAT OVERSHADOWED THEM: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

See the kingdom of God - after six days - there was a cloud that overshadowed them

LUKE 9 [27] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.[28] And IT CAME TO PASS ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.[29] And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:[31] Who APPEARED IN GLORY, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.[32] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.[33] And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and LET US MAKE THREE TABERNACLES; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

See the kingdom of God - about 8 days (the end of the 7th) - glory


ISAIAH 4 [3] And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:[4] When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING.[5] And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, A CLOUD AND SMOKE BY DAY, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all THE GLORY shall be a defence.[6] And there shall be a TABERNACLE FOR A SHADOW in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.


Just as Jesus said. Peter James and John saw the kingdom of God. The place of the 1000 yr period of rest. Dont ask me how they got there. I only know they did.

HOSEA 6 [1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.[2] AFTER TWO DAYS will he revive us: IN THE THIRD DAY HE WILL RAISE US UP, AND WE SHALL LIVE IN HIS SIGHT.[3] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Well.. i put these scriptures together rather quickly. Not sure if i know what im talking about, but i guess thats why we are here. To figure out those things which are written.

Steven3
Oct 13th 2007, 06:10 AM
Hi Dandylionheart :)
See the kingdom of God - after six days - there was a cloud that overshadowed themThank you for dropping the penny :), I must be dense because I've read "after six days" a 100 times and it never occured to me till now to see symbolic significance. I'd always just assumed it was six days because the mountain was six days walk away - which was sort of confirming the idea that they journeyed to Mt. Nebo (where Moses was buried and in the area where Elijah disappeared) was more likely than Mt. Hermon.

I don't believe in any 7-millenia divine plan though ;) would contradict Mark 13:32
God bless
Steven

Debra R
Oct 13th 2007, 01:32 PM
Thank you Dandylionheart! :pp
As I was reading your post and the Scripture you posted this stood out to me......
[7] And there was A CLOUD THAT OVERSHADOWED THEM: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

See the kingdom of God - after six days - there was a cloud that overshadowed them


This made me think of in the old testament where the children of Israel were led by the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. So I did a word search for cloud and came across these verses......

Exodus 20:21 So the people stood at a distance, while Moses approached the thick cloud where God was.

22 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'You yourselves have seen that I have spoken to you from heaven.

Exodus 24:15 Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.

16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.


2] AND AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.



See the kingdom of God - about 8 days (the end of the 7th) - glory



Just comparing those verses. That is so neat! :)There is a lot there to ponder on.

And thinking on these verses......

[32] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.


They were awake when they saw Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah.
Actually I had never heard of it being called a vision until I read it on this board. I do believe they saw Moses and Elijah. How I don't know :).
And they were privileged to see the glory of God. That is so awesome.

There is still a lot to think about here.

Thanks all. :hug:





2 PETER 3 [7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE AGAINST THE DAY OF JUDGMENT and perdition of ungodly men.[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, and a thousand years as one day.[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do ya see how a 1000 yrs to Lord is but one day. All things were created in 6 days and the 7th was a day of rest. Revelations says there will be a 1000 yr period of rest. Most bible authorities say we are nearing the end of that six thousand yrs. Six days? And Christ will return after those 6000 yrs and set up his 1000 yr period of rest. He will set up the kingdom of God which he talked about all through the new testament.

MARK 9 [1] And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD come with power.[2] AND AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.[3] And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.[4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.[7] And there was A CLOUD THAT OVERSHADOWED THEM: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

See the kingdom of God - after six days - there was a cloud that overshadowed them

LUKE 9 [27] But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.[28] And IT CAME TO PASS ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.[29] And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:[31] Who APPEARED IN GLORY, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.[32] But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.[33] And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and LET US MAKE THREE TABERNACLES; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

See the kingdom of God - about 8 days (the end of the 7th) - glory


ISAIAH 4 [3] And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:[4] When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by THE SPIRIT OF JUDGMENT, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING.[5] And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, A CLOUD AND SMOKE BY DAY, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all THE GLORY shall be a defence.[6] And there shall be a TABERNACLE FOR A SHADOW in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.


Just as Jesus said. Peter James and John saw the kingdom of God. The place of the 1000 yr period of rest. Dont ask me how they got there. I only know they did.

HOSEA 6 [1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.[2] AFTER TWO DAYS will he revive us: IN THE THIRD DAY HE WILL RAISE US UP, AND WE SHALL LIVE IN HIS SIGHT.[3] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Well.. i put these scriptures together rather quickly. Not sure if i know what im talking about, but i guess thats why we are here. To figure out those things which are written.

Dandylionheart
Oct 13th 2007, 04:24 PM
Hi Dandylionheart :)Thank you for dropping the penny :), I must be dense because I've read "after six days" a 100 times and it never occured to me till now to see symbolic significance. I'd always just assumed it was six days because the mountain was six days walk away - which was sort of confirming the idea that they journeyed to Mt. Nebo (where Moses was buried and in the area where Elijah disappeared) was more likely than Mt. Hermon.

I don't believe in any 7-millenia divine plan though ;) would contradict Mark 13:32
God bless
Steven

I do not think it does contadict Mark 13:32. A few verses before 32 the Word says we will know when its close, even at the door. What year was Christ crucified? Ask 5 people and i bet you'd get 5 different answers. So there can be no true date setting, but you'll know when its gettin close.

Dandylionheart
Oct 13th 2007, 05:02 PM
Thank you Dandylionheart! :pp
As I was reading your post and the Scripture you posted this stood out to me......

This made me think of in the old testament where the children of Israel were led by the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. So I did a word search for cloud and came across these verses......

16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.

Just comparing those verses. That is so neat! :)There is a lot there to ponder on.

Thanks all. :hug:

Hi Debra R
The scripture below is talking about what will happen during the 1000 yr period of rest

Isaiah 4:4-6
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. [5] And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence. [6] And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

In Luke 9, Peter asks if he should make 3 tabernacles. Then the Word says "not knowing what he said". Why? Were they already covered by the tabernacle of Isaiah 4:6. Just somethin to think about. Have a good day D.R.

Wow. Just went and looked at scripture you sent.

Exodus 24:15-18
And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount. [16] And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

In Isaiah 4 you'll find "by the spirit of burning"

Man just couldnt write these things

Teke
Oct 14th 2007, 05:15 PM
Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.


I've been thinking on the transfiguration..... I have some questions...... Just some thoughts going through my mind :cool:..........Why did Jesus have to speak with Moses and Elijah? For that matter why was there a need for them to speak with Jesus? What was the purpose of the transfiguration?

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

And going back to chapter 16 what was meant by "the Son of Man coming into His kingdom"?

What did the transfiguration have to do with the kingdom? That may be my main question. Hope these aren't silly questions :saint:. I've looked up a few commentaries but none seemed to answer my questions. Just wondering if there are some deeper things here. :)

Thanks and God bless :hug:

Hi Debra, here are some thoughts.:)

As has been mentioned the Transfiguration is a 'theophany', a manifestation of God, especially of the divinity of Christ, through a display of His uncreated, divine energy.

Several elements of the Transfiguration show that Christ is Messiah and God.

1) Because God is light (1 John 1:5), the bright cloud, the shining of Jesus face like the sun, and the whiteness of His garment (Matt:17:2,5) all demonstrate that Jesus is God. (in some icons this ight is shown as beyond white, a blue-white, ineffable color, indicating its spiritual origin)

2) The Father bears witness from heaven concerning His Son. He does not say, "this has become my beloved Son", but "This is My beloved Son" (Matt 17:5) indicating that this divine glory is Christ's by nature. From eternity past, infinitely before Jesus' Baptism and Transfiguration, He is God's Son, fully sharing in the essence of the Father: Jesus Christ is God of God.

3) The Transfiguration not only proclaims Christ's divine sonship, but foreshadows His future glory when as the Messiah will usher in the long awaited Kingdom. The bright cloud recalls temple worship and the cloud that went before the Israelites in the wilderness, the visible sign of God being extraordinarily present. Peter sees this sign as a sign of the Kingdom, he asks to build booths (Matt 17:4), as was done at that feast, to serve as symbols of God's dwelling among the just in the Kingdom.

SIG
Oct 14th 2007, 11:45 PM
A good thread...

Another fascinating question: How did they know it was Moses and Elijah? Had they seen photos?

Steven3
Oct 15th 2007, 04:11 AM
Hey SiG:)
Another fascinating question: How did they know it was Moses and Elijah? Had they seen photos?

Great question! But since it is a "vision" (Greek ORAMA, Matt17:9) the 3 disciples would not have had to be restricted to purely visual information. Sometimes when Ezekiel or Daniel have visions they provide information that cannot be gleaned with the naked eye itself. Having said that though, I can't off the top of my head think of any of the other NT ORAMA where this is the case.... and even in the OT often there's an angel explaining things.

Or, alternatively, if the mountain was Mt.Nebo rather than Mt.Hermon they may have been expecting to see Moses, and had some kind of preconception of how Moses and Elijah should look which the vision confirmed? Or did they see/hear Jesus walk up and say "Moses and Elijah, hello! I am the prophet-like-unto-Moses and Messiah"

Interesting question!
Steven

Debra R
Oct 17th 2007, 12:52 AM
:) Hi Teke! Good to see you! :hug: Thank you for your comments they were helpful too.


:) Hi SIG. I think maybe their recognition of who they were could have been spiritual? Unless Jesus called them by name. :hmm:


I was thinking on these verses again........


Luke 9:30 And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah,
31 who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
32 Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him.
33 And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah"--not realizing what he was saying.
34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Thinking on Luke 9:31, what does "appearing in glory" really mean? I keep getting hung up on the word "vision" don't know why, because it was Jesus who told them not to tell of the "vision" to no one until the Son of Man was risen from the dead. I guess it's my concept of vision or what vision means.

Anyway I was thinking that the Disciples hearing them speaking of what was to happen at Jerusalem was just more confirmation for them to understand what was to happen.

And I was thinking on the comparison of the verses in Luke and in Exodus.




Exodus 24:15 Then Moses went up to the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain.
16 The glory of the LORD rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days; and on the seventh day He called to Moses from the midst of the cloud.
17 And to the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of the LORD was like a consuming fire on the mountain top.
18 Moses entered the midst of the cloud as he went up to the mountain; and Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights.

With the cloud overshadowing them, was this the same as what happened with Moses? They knew of course about God speaking with Moses on the mount and so this would be even more confirmation to them about who Jesus was and is. I had never compared those verses before now and I think that is so cool!

Thank you Dandylionheart for the scripture in Isaiah.

Thanks all. :)

SIG
Oct 17th 2007, 04:25 AM
My question was more or less rhetorical. Of course, the Spirit revealed to them who they were seeing. Just as the Spirit was revealing Christ transfigured.

...The application being that the Spirit also reveals to us what we have no logical way of knowing...

Debra R
Oct 17th 2007, 09:51 PM
My question was more or less rhetorical. Of course, the Spirit revealed to them who they were seeing. Just as the Spirit was revealing Christ transfigured.

...The application being that the Spirit also reveals to us what we have no logical way of knowing...

Okay, I'm a dummy, I didn't get the rhetorical question. :D

But it did make me think of how at times when we meet, say like a stranger, there are sometimes a recognition in your spirit that they are Christian. And then there's the other way too, when you sense the "evil" around that person. Just thinking out loud. :D

SIG
Oct 18th 2007, 04:04 AM
Rhetorical question: How did they know it was Moses and Elijah?

(Obvious?) answer: The Spirit revealed it to them.