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swarr
Oct 15th 2007, 01:11 AM
I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused:confused.

CrunchyChristian
Oct 15th 2007, 01:55 AM
This is a very debatable subject. It's called the OSAS debate. Be prepared for either a long discussion, or to be refered to previous threads. Here is one that I found (but did not read or take part in) just by typing in OSAS in the search feature.

OSAS Discussion CLICK HERE (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101857&highlight=OSAS)

May God convict your heart according to His will.

walked
Oct 15th 2007, 04:28 AM
I believe the cross is the 2nd part to the beginning of salvation.

The first part is your initial repentance and acknowledging that you are a sinful lost fallen creature.This is also an active or ongoing process, we have to repent each time we fail or each time new sin in us is revealed by His word.

The second part is the cross or calvary, it is the sacrifice offered by God to restore His fallen creation and creatures. This is a one time thing no other ways to use this other than a ransom paid by Christ for our healing and restoration to the Creator, there is no other way.

The third part is abiding in Him/His word, walking in faith or in the light of His revelations in His word. This is an active ongoing part to salvation where one will grow in the likeness, holiness and perfection of the Lord.
(no one who is not perfect and holy will stand before God)
Christ sacrifice and His works and words on earth, they are our ladder to heaven, each step we take or each time we grow in our knowledge of Him and His word it brings us closer to heaven and is transforming us each new step we take up on this ladder.
The path or ladder is narrow and leads to one narrow gate (Christ) our Advocate in heaven and our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepard, our Teacher, our Gate to fellowship with the Creator.

Now if one stays focussed on the one who hung on the cross (Christ Jesus) and abide in obedience to His word AND keep repenting and confessing ones sins as they are revealed to us by us abiding in His word....
Then you have found salvation and, if you keep abiding in Him/His words, then you wont lose it, His words will keep/guard you! (seal you)...if one wonders away from the 'WORD' then they were not in His word correctly (fooled) to begin with or they were mislead by men.

Some think they or someone they know have lost their salvation, but I believe such a person never really had it to begin with.
(nothing in heaven or on earth can take something out of the hand of Christ that the Father has put there)

TEITZY
Oct 15th 2007, 12:10 PM
I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused:confused.

The verse/s you are looking for are found in 2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13, 4:30.

While I believe that the Bible teaches that Christians are eternally secure from the time they are sealed by the Holy Spirit at conversion, the Bible also recognizes that the Church will be a mixture of true and false believers (eg. the lukewarm Laodiceans) and so contains many warnings to those who would profess Christianity but do not show the fruits of the Spirit or deny the faith they once professed. God knew that the doctrine of grace and eternal security would be used by some to promote the idea that one can essentially 'believe' and then live as he pleases and still have assurance of salvation. To counter this false understanding of grace, the NT contains many warnings to professing believers to persevere and continue in the Gospel as evidence of geniune saving faith. If a person claims to be a Christian and yet lives like the devil or denies Christ (His person and work) the NT provides no assurance to such a 'believer'.

Cheers
Leigh

Captain Fin
Oct 15th 2007, 07:00 PM
Our pastor had a sermon on this one time. His words were “We can’t be lukewarm Christians; we have to be hot for Christ!”

DSK
Oct 16th 2007, 12:33 AM
Some think they or someone they know have lost their salvation, but I believe such a person never really had it to begin with.
(nothing in heaven or on earth can take something out of the hand of Christ that the Father has put there)

Below are links to 4 case studies of men who departed from faith in Christ. If these four men were not truly and genuinely saved at one time then I don't know what possible evidence one would need to see that the teaching of OSAS is incorrect.

Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1401982&postcount=99

Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1402352&postcount=119

Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1403631&postcount=136

An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1406348&postcount=186

.

Kylism
Oct 16th 2007, 05:33 AM
It started with the verse:

Rev 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Captain Fin said:
Our pastor had a sermon on this one time. His words were “We can’t be lukewarm Christians; we have to be hot for Christ!”

I think the sermon should be: "Christians be hot OR cold"

I heard someone teach on this. Here in our modern culture we see hot as good and cold as not so good. Yet in a desert environment. Lukewarm water is not useful, cold will refresh you or hot can be used for cooking. Here the point is to this church is that they are not useful. Remember in verse 15 it says "I know your deeds (the things you have done)".

That is why Jesus wants hot or cold as in Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

It is like they lost their salty taste, so you throw it out.

Matthew 5:13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out

Kylism

walked
Oct 17th 2007, 12:53 AM
Below are links to 4 case studies of men who departed from faith in Christ. If these four men were not truly and genuinely saved at one time then I don't know what possible evidence one would need to see that the teaching of OSAS is incorrect.

Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1401982&postcount=99

Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1402352&postcount=119

Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1403631&postcount=136

An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1406348&postcount=186

.

I go by the word of God, as to what to believe.
He says nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what He has place in the hand of Christ.
If these men where in the hand of Christ, then they still are!...If they aren't now, then they never were!....no matter what you believe by reading other mens words, only believe Gods word and, you will be standing on firm unshakable ground friend.

just4christ
Oct 18th 2007, 05:56 PM
I go by the word of God, as to what to believe.
He says nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what He has place in the hand of Christ.
If these men where in the hand of Christ, then they still are!...If they aren't now, then they never were!....no matter what you believe by reading other mens words, only believe Gods word and, you will be standing on firm unshakable ground friend.

amen ! Im so glad my salvation doesnt depend on me but the blood of Christ , period !

AliveinChristDave
Oct 18th 2007, 06:43 PM
As I was studying this morning in II Thessalonians I saw two phrases.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Verse 10 is refering to those who will be deceived by the Wicked. (2:8)

Verse 13 refers to those who God has chosen to Salvation through sanctification.

In Verse 10, people will PERISH because they don't Love the truth.
In Verse 13 no one will be saved unless they believe the truth.

Two different events, but most people just assume love of the truth and belief of the truth are one in the same.

You can believe the truth and that belief or faith will put you on the road to salvation through sanctification. (no salvation apart from sanctification)

Yet, verse 13, along with most pertaining verses in the Bible clearly tells us unless we LOVE the truth, we will be decieved.

So, a person has to believe the truth for God to begin His work of Salvation but a person has to LOVE the truth for that work to be completed so that they have true understanding and knowledge of earthly events.

Can a person lose thier salvation? Well, the question should be can a person who receives the truth quit receiving it and leave the things of God behind and go back into a worldly lifestyle?

I think most of us answer that to the affirmative. In my 40 plus years of following the Lord I've seen it happen scores of times.

Is a person who abandons their faith condemned? No. Once The Holy Spirit makes his abode in our spirit He stays.

Will a person who abandons thier faith live lives full of wisdom and understanding and blessings and not be deceived by the wiles of Satan?

NO. This person, although having at one time faith in the truth never develops a love of the truth and will never receive a full reward, but they will never be condemned with the sinners.

I really don't see the once saved always saved issue to be confussing. We just need to let the Lord take us to a new and higher level of understanding. I think the Calvinist and the Arminians are right and wrong. :)

jeffreys
Oct 18th 2007, 09:47 PM
I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused:confused.

Can salvation be "lost" in the same way I might lose my keys, or lose equity in my house? No.

Can salvation we renounced, or thrown away? Yes.

Illumined
Oct 19th 2007, 02:12 AM
"Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place. They didn't. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we supply neither the grace nor the faith. God gives us both, in making us alive in the spirit where we were previously dead in sin. It is interesting to note that most people who believe in conditional security never think their own salvation is in jeopardy, it is always that unknown third party who might "take license to sin." I explained that above. Only those who don't really understand the gospel would take such license, and if you don't understand it, you can't believe it is true, at any level: intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually."

jeffreys
Oct 19th 2007, 02:36 AM
"Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place. They didn't. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and we supply neither the grace nor the faith. God gives us both, in making us alive in the spirit where we were previously dead in sin. It is interesting to note that most people who believe in conditional security never think their own salvation is in jeopardy, it is always that unknown third party who might "take license to sin." I explained that above. Only those who don't really understand the gospel would take such license, and if you don't understand it, you can't believe it is true, at any level: intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually."

We don't supply the faith?

If we have nothing to do with anything, why would any of the New Testament have been written? If we can do nothing, and actually do nothing, regarding our salvation, why would Jesus have given us the Great Commission?

Unless I'm totally misreading what you wrote, it seems that you're saying there is absolutely nothing we do - nor can do - to either accept or reject salvation. And that flies in the face of everything Jesus said.

walked
Oct 19th 2007, 08:21 AM
amen ! Im so glad my salvation doesnt depend on me but the blood of Christ , period !

Your salvation does depend on the blood of Christ but,
You are to be able to see the evidence of the blood of Christ in your day to day life, this evidence comes from your spirit being reborn, your spirit being reborn will give you an inner desire to please God.
From there Gods word says it is impossible to please God with out faith, this comes again from your reborn spirit (ye must be born again) Gods word say we are to love God with all of our heart, mind and our might. again the evidence of this love is found in our obedience, Gods word says if you love me you will keep my commands.

So our reborn spirit comes from our calling of God to come out of this fallen world and to gather to His Son to receive the blood of Christ to cover our sin from the eyes of God, our reborn spirit an our remission of sin both come from God. And the word of God gives us a way to confirm if we have salvation or not by looking for the evidence that we do love Him, if we love Him we will obey Him and, we need to have faith to please Him, this love and this faith comes from our reborn spirit, this spirit creates evidence in our lives that we want to please Him by motivating us to please God.

So it isn't inactive faith, you don't just do nothing, your reborn spirit will give you desires, your work is to respond to these desires by choosing to please God and with faith, choosing to love God with obedience and, choosing to fear Him, these things are actions that you choose to do, you don't do nothing.
You cant choose to please God by doing nothing.
You cant choose to love and obey God by doing nothing.
You cant choose to fear God by doing nothing.
God has reborn our spirit to give us desires to do all of these things that He requires of us and, they are all found through Christ blood and, His Holy Spirit was sent to earth to guide and comfort us in our daily lives to accomplish the works that come from the desires of our reborn spirits.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The gospel is simple, all of this sounds complicated and confusing because it is man trying to explain it here in mans words.

But, it is a simple plan if you ask God to explain it to you, if you ask Him, His Holy Spirit WILL explain it to you with out any confusion that will be found in man explaining it to you....this is called seeking Him, continuing to seek Him.

ikester7579
Oct 19th 2007, 10:30 AM
I've read( but can't find the verse at this time )that at the time we are saved we are sealed. Recently I've read in Revelations about the lukewarm christians that the Lord says he will spew out of his mouth. I'm confused:confused.

The basic thing to remember regardless of which you come to believe is that salvation can never be used as a ticket to sin. Christ died to forgive sin, not condone it. So if you are ever in a church that does a sermon on this subject. And tries to make it sound like we can commit any sin, and it's okay. Then the doctrine they teach is wrong.

Also there is the works issue. There is a difference between works for the kingdom, and carnal works. So when the sermon for works come out. Keep in mind there are kingdom works that are required of us.

just4christ
Oct 19th 2007, 05:07 PM
It amazes me how some put the cart BEFORE the horse . The Gospel of Christ is simple . God by HIS GRACE saves through faith ( Eph. 2:8,9) . Works are a result of salvation not for salvation . Its about what Jesus Christ did at calvary , not what we have done (Galations2:16) . Cant mingle law and grace . Its not the blood of Christ plus works . Although fruit will result from true conversion. Why belittle the power of Christ blood . It saves and keeps . If your salvation depends on you then you must be under tremendous bondage .

Frances
Oct 19th 2007, 06:08 PM
Can salvation be "lost" in the same way I might lose my keys, or lose equity in my house? No.

Can salvation we renounced, or thrown away? Yes.

I agree.

I have been Saved, I am being Saved and one day - if I keep trusting and obeying my Lord Jesus Christ to the end - I will be Saved.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 19th 2007, 11:04 PM
I agree.

I have been Saved, I am being Saved and one day - if I keep trusting and obeying my Lord Jesus Christ to the end - I will be Saved.


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, [B]who also will do it.


I have been Saved, (Spirit) (Holy of Holies) [God conscious]
I am being Saved (Soul) (Holy Place) [Self conscious]
I will be Saved (Body) (Outer Court) [World conscious]


I have been Saved, (Spirit)
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I am being Saved (Soul)
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I will be Saved (Body)
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

DSK
Oct 20th 2007, 01:03 PM
"Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place.

Two Simple Questions For You

1. Can a person be saved before for he repents and believes? ...... Yes or No

2. Did God repent or believe for you? ............ Yes or No

.

DSK
Oct 20th 2007, 01:07 PM
I go by the word of God, as to what to believe.


Glad to hear that

Hear God's word

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

walked
Oct 20th 2007, 02:35 PM
Glad to hear that

Hear God's word

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Thank you, my point exactly
(lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief)

An unbelieving heart/dead heart cant and never did coexist with a living God, a dead heart will eventually depart.....depart from the narrow path that leads to the narrow gate (Christ).
The path is the testing walk we have that leads to our salvation at the end of the path, staying on the path is the evidence of a believing heart.
And trespassing off the path is the evidence of an unbelieving heart.

DSK
Oct 20th 2007, 03:48 PM
Thank you, my point exactly


Neither the Scripture I posted, nor anything I stated proved your point. It's obvious that you are coming away with an incorrect interpretation of the following verse which I posted.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away (departing) from the living God:

Since the author of Hebrews previously addressed the brethren as "holy brethren" in Heb 3:1, it is then clear from the Scripture above, that the word "brethren" in the above verse is referring to believers by faith in Christ.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

Therefore we must conclude that in Heb 3:12 the author is telling those Christian brothers which he addresses to "take heed" lest there be any one among themselves who through unbelief departs (apostatzies) from the living God.

Every indication from a proper exegesis is that this verse is a warning to believers, not unbelievers. Thats why the author of Hebrews is addressing those he is speaking to as "holy brethren" (3:1) and again as "brethren" (3:12).

losthorizon
Oct 20th 2007, 05:01 PM
"Having started from a false premise, it is easy to reach a false conclusion. The false premise most who believe that salvation can be lost is that they had anything to do with their salvation in the first place. They didn't....



Doesn’t Jesus tell us that we must "do something" - believe and be baptized - before salvation is ours? “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved…”
“These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ The Pulpit Commentary

DSK
Oct 20th 2007, 05:23 PM
Doesn’t Jesus tell us that we must "do something" - believe and be baptized - before salvation is ours? “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved…”
“These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ The Pulpit Commentary

Welcome to the forum losthorizon

The topic of this thread is "Can Salvation Be Lost"

I could provide you with an answer to your question but refuse to, because your question takes us in a direction away from the main topic of this thread.
I would suggest to you that you should start a new thread to discuss that sort of question.

Respectfully
DSK

losthorizon
Oct 20th 2007, 07:14 PM
Welcome to the forum losthorizon

The topic of this thread is "Can Salvation Be Lost"

I could provide you with an answer to your question but refuse to, because your question takes us in a direction away from the main topic of this thread.
I would suggest to you that you should start a new thread to discuss that sort of question.

Respectfully
DSK
DSK – thanks for the welcome. It was not my intent to distract from the OP but I took issue with the poster’s suggestion that the penitent have nothing “to do with their salvation”. I think one’s obedience to Gods command (per the example of Mark 16:16) counters this idea.:)

Partaker of Christ
Oct 20th 2007, 09:25 PM
Neither the Scripture I posted, nor anything I stated proved your point. It's obvious that you are coming away with an incorrect interpretation of the following verse which I posted.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away (departing) from the living God:

Since the author of Hebrews previously addressed the brethren as "holy brethren" in Heb 3:1, it is then clear from the Scripture above, that the word "brethren" in the above verse is referring to believers by faith in Christ.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

Therefore we must conclude that in Heb 3:12 the author is telling those Christian brothers which he addresses to "take heed" lest there be any one among themselves who through unbelief departs (apostatzies) from the living God.

Every indication from a proper exegesis is that this verse is a warning to believers, not unbelievers. That why the author of hebrews is addressing those he is speaking to as "holy brethren" (3:1) and again as "brethren" (3:12).

Does 'Falling away' mean to become unsaved?
Does that mean that man, can undo what Almighty God has done?

DSK
Oct 20th 2007, 11:34 PM
Does 'Falling away' mean to become unsaved?
Does that mean that man, can undo what Almighty God has done?

Here is a link to a post in another thread which I composed that deals with that question.
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1415431&postcount=324

losthorizon
Oct 20th 2007, 11:37 PM
Does 'Falling away' mean to become unsaved?
Does that mean that man, can undo what Almighty God has done?




As beings that are created in God’s “image” we are responsible for the choices we make between “doing good” and “doing evil”. Joshua told the children of Israel,
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD (Josh 24:15)Is apostasy possible? According to the Bible it most certainly is – we are told that even some angels (who also have freedom of choice) “rebelled against God”, and were cast from heaven into “everlasting punishment”. The same is true with humankind – if Christians “shall bring in damnable heresies” - just like the angels - it will also bring about their “swift destruction” (2 Peter 2:1).

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 12:43 AM
Neither the Scripture I posted, nor anything I stated proved your point. It's obvious that you are coming away with an incorrect interpretation of the following verse which I posted.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away (departing) from the living God:

Since the author of Hebrews previously addressed the brethren as "holy brethren" in Heb 3:1, it is then clear from the Scripture above, that the word "brethren" in the above verse is referring to believers by faith in Christ.

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, even Jesus;

Therefore we must conclude that in Heb 3:12 the author is telling those Christian brothers which he addresses to "take heed" lest there be any one among themselves who through unbelief departs (apostatzies) from the living God.

Every indication from a proper exegesis is that this verse is a warning to believers, not unbelievers. Thats why the author of Hebrews is addressing those he is speaking to as "holy brethren" (3:1) and again as "brethren" (3:12).
You conclude what you choose to conclude I dont think you speak for "we"
there are now and was then goats mixed in with Gods holy sheep (holy brethren) he's telling the holy brethren to take heed of what he's pointing to, that an evil heart might be in any one of you......other scriptures give us a way to discern by evidence if one has a evil heart, if one departs off the narrow path and doesn't repent and return, that is evidence of an evil heart which never had belief/faith to begin with.

jeffreys
Oct 21st 2007, 12:48 AM
I think what many people find so objectionable is the extremes of the "Once Saved Always Saved" stance. And there really is a point at which it becomes absurd.

To say that there is absolutely nothing we can do to gain salvation flies in the face of virtually everything Jesus said. You do have to choose to build your house on the rock, in light of the fact that you could choose to build it on the sand.

And to insist that a saved Christian absolutely cannot renounce their faith, become apostate, and forfeit their salvation removes all choice - and choice based on reason is what separates us from the rest of creation. There is a reason the New Testament epistles are filled with corrective teaching, encouragement and exhortations to not accept "other gospels".


To be sure, I'm not going to lose my salvation like I might lose my glasses, wallet or keys. Nor is anybody else able to put some voodoo curse on me that kicks me out of heaven. But I could choose to turn away from the Lord and renounce my faith. I cannot fathom why I would do that, but it is possible.

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 01:04 AM
You conclude what you choose to conclude I dont think you speak for "we"
there are now and was then goats mixed in with Gods holy sheep (holy brethren) he's telling the holy brethren to take heed of what he's pointing to, that an evil heart might be in any one of you......other scriptures give us a way to discern by evidence if one has a evil heart, if one departs off the narrow path and doesn't repent and return, that is evidence of an evil heart which never had belief/faith to begin with.

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)Paul plainly states that those Christians who turn to the Law of Moses for salvation are “severed from Christ.” Question to you – how can one be “severed from” that to which he was never joined (the body of Christ)? Paul plainly describes those who were once “in Christ Jesus” but now they have “fallen from grace” – they “have been severed from Christ”. If one is severed from Christ he/she is certainly not in a saved condition.

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 01:09 AM
I think what many people find so objectionable is the extremes of the "Once Saved Always Saved" stance. And there really is a point at which it becomes absurd.

To say that there is absolutely nothing we can do to gain salvation flies in the face of virtually everything Jesus said. You do have to choose to build your house on the rock, in light of the fact that you could choose to build it on the sand.

And to insist that a saved Christian absolutely cannot renounce their faith, become apostate, and forfeit their salvation removes all choice - and choice based on reason is what separates us from the rest of creation. There is a reason the New Testament epistles are filled with corrective teaching, encouragement and exhortations to not accept "other gospels".


To be sure, I'm not going to lose my salvation like I might lose my glasses, wallet or keys. Nor is anybody else able to put some voodoo curse on me that kicks me out of heaven. But I could choose to turn away from the Lord and renounce my faith. I cannot fathom why I would do that, but it is possible.
Very well stated.

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 08:54 AM
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)Paul plainly states that those Christians who turn to the Law of Moses for salvation are “severed from Christ.” Question to you – how can one be “severed from” that to which he was never joined (the body of Christ)? Paul plainly describes those who were once “in Christ Jesus” but now they have “fallen from grace” – they “have been severed from Christ”. If one is severed from Christ he/she is certainly not in a saved condition.

I think you are confusing grace with salvation.
you can fall from grace but, you cannot fall from salvation, salvation is a destination you are brought to by grace.

I understand grace as an opportunity, an opportunity given to us by Gods mercy to walk on the narrow path that leads to the (narrow gate) (salvation) (Christ).
Salvation is the reward of excepting grace but, the reward/salvation is at the end of the narrow path not on the narrow path, its at the end of the path, not in or on the path, salvation is at the gate, at the end of the narrow path.

Some choose to trespass off the narrow path and then find themselves in a wrong place and get back on the narrow path, they have stumbled but will still reach salvation because they come back to and follow the narrow path to the end of the path.

Then some trespass off the narrow path and don't get back on the narrow path, they've fallen from grace and, will not reach salvation which is at the end of the narrow path

ikester7579
Oct 21st 2007, 09:58 AM
I think you are confusing grace with salvation.
you can fall from grace but, you cannot fall from salvation, salvation is a destination you are brought to by grace.

I understand grace as an opportunity, an opportunity given to us by Gods mercy to walk on the narrow path that leads to the (narrow gate) (salvation) (Christ).
Salvation is the reward of excepting grace but, the reward/salvation is at the end of the narrow path not on the narrow path, its at the end of the path, not in or on the path, salvation is at the gate, at the end of the narrow path.

Some choose to trespass off the narrow path and then find themselves in a wrong place and get back on the narrow path, they have stumbled but will still reach salvation because they come back to and follow the narrow path to the end of the path.

Then some trespass off the narrow path and don't get back on the narrow path, they've fallen from grace and, will not reach salvation which is at the end of the narrow path



Can something eternal exist in a realm of non-eternity? Because if we receive eternal salvation like in this verse:

heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Becoming eternal through salvation means that we could never die a physical death. Why? We are still in our mortal bodies, to receive anything eternal would make our current state also eternal. Also, nothing eternal can be given where sin also exists. This is why we cannot see God. He is separate because sin cannot exist where He is.

The marriage supper of the Lamb, in which Christ is the bridegroom. Is when we receive our eternal salvation. For how can we become part of a marriage covenant before the marriage even takes place?

What this means is that we are betrothed (promised) unto Christ.

eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This is why there are two version of the gift of eternal life.

1) Saved (promised)
2) Salvation (the actual covenant that is eternal).

DSK
Oct 21st 2007, 10:09 AM
You conclude what you choose to conclude I dont think you speak for "we"
there are now and was then goats mixed in with Gods holy sheep (holy brethren) he's telling the holy brethren to take heed of what he's pointing to, that an evil heart might be in any one of you......other scriptures give us a way to discern by evidence if one has a evil heart, if one departs off the narrow path and doesn't repent and return, that is evidence of an evil heart which never had belief/faith to begin with.

The trouble with your logic is that a person must first be on the narrow path before he can depart from it. A person can't depart from a path he is not on. In like manner, I cannot depart from Dallas unless I am first in Dallas.

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 01:19 PM
The trouble with your logic is that a person must first be on the narrow path before he can depart from it. A person can't depart from a path he is not on. In like manner, I cannot depart from Dallas unless I am first in Dallas.
If we are speaking of salvation, which is the topic of this thread, then there is only one path to salvation.
Just because one gets on the path doesn't mean one will stay on the path to the end.
And anyone can get on the path because of the grace and mercy of God
(many are called but few are chosen) Anyone can get on the path and start walking toward the goal at the end, but salvation isn't until you reach the end of the path. (If you persist to the end you will find your salvation)

Where salvation is found is made clear in Gods word, its at the end and you have to endure to the end to receive it....so how can you lose something that you don't get until the end, you can only lose your way to salvation, YOU CAN NOT LOSE SALVATION, you can only lose your way to salvation by getting off the path that leads to it, once you reach salvation you can not lose it.

DSK
Oct 21st 2007, 01:36 PM
If we are speaking of salvation, which is the topic of this thread, then there is only one path to salvation.
Just because one gets on the path doesn't mean one will stay on the path to the end.
And anyone can get on the path because of the grace and mercy of God
(many are called but few are chosen) Anyone can get on the path and start walking toward the goal at the end, but salvation isn't until you reach the end of the path. (If you persist to the end you will find your salvation)

Where salvation is found is made clear in Gods word, its at the end and you have to endure to the end to receive it....so how can you lose something that you don't get until the end, you can only lose your way to salvation, YOU CAN NOT LOSE SALVATION, you can only lose your way to salvation by getting off the path that leads to it, once you reach salvation you can not lose it.

Salvation can be properly be spoken of in three tenses.
1. You have been saved
2. You are being saved
3. You yet shall be saved

God ... delivered us ... and doth deliver; ... in whom we trust that he yet will deliver us. - 2 Cor 1:9-10 - all three tenses of deliverence are mentioned there.

At this present moment I have been saved by faith in Christ. And in the future I will remain saved as long as I continue in this same faith.

Col 1:21 And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,
Col 1:22 yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

The trouble is there are many who begin in the faith, only to later leave the path of faith.

Below are four links to brief case studies of those who left the path of faith which leads to life. Such brief case studies are usually ignored by eternal securitists

Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1401982&postcount=99

Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1402352&postcount=119

Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1403631&postcount=136

An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1406348&postcount=186

On the other hand you are only looking at salvation in one tense, or final salvation, when you need to be able to see salvation in all three tenses.

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 01:45 PM
I think you are confusing grace with salvation.
you can fall from grace but, you cannot fall from salvation, salvation is a destination you are brought to by grace.

I understand grace as an opportunity, an opportunity given to us by Gods mercy to walk on the narrow path that leads to the (narrow gate) (salvation) (Christ).
Salvation is the reward of excepting grace but, the reward/salvation is at the end of the narrow path not on the narrow path, its at the end of the path, not in or on the path, salvation is at the gate, at the end of the narrow path.

Some choose to trespass off the narrow path and then find themselves in a wrong place and get back on the narrow path, they have stumbled but will still reach salvation because they come back to and follow the narrow path to the end of the path.

Then some trespass off the narrow path and don't get back on the narrow path, they've fallen from grace and, will not reach salvation which is at the end of the narrow path


I respectfully disagree – I understand both the grace of God and the salvation paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Your problem appears to be a sectarian “rationalization” that the disciple of Christ simply “falls away” from a “divine favor” but cannot lose his “eternal salvation” or that a “disciple” was never really a “true disciple” to start with. Both ideas contradict the reality taught in Scripture – the reality that a Christian never loses her “freedom of choice” when she becomes a child of God. Just as one freely chooses to “obey from the heart that form of doctrine" (Rom 6:17), one may also choose to deny “even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Pet. 2:1).” Only a true disciple of Christ is “bought” by His precious blood and it is possible for true disciples to bring upon "themselves swift destruction" when they "fall from grace".

It is not possible for one to “fall away” from where he never was nor can one be “severed from Christ” unless he was first “in Christ”. You never answered my question - how can one be “severed” from that to which he was never joined (the body of Christ)? Salvation is found only “in Christ”. Only those who are saved are “in Christ” and those Christians who have been “severed from Christ” are those Christians who have “fallen from grace” – Christians who are “bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” It doesn’t get any plainer than this – to be severed from Christ is to lose one’s salvation - the salvation that is only given to those who are in Christ.

“You are severed from Christ, you would be justified by the law; you are fallen away from grace” (Galatians 5:4)

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 02:37 PM
Salvation can be properly be spoken of in three tenses.
1. You have been saved
2. You are being saved
3. You yet shall be saved

God ... delivered us ... and doth deliver; ... in whom we trust that he yet will deliver us. - 2 Cor 1:9-10 - all three tenses of deliverence are mentioned there.

At this present moment I have been saved by faith in Christ. And in the future I will remain saved as long as I continue in this same faith.

Col 1:21 And you, being in time past alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,
Col 1:22 yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.

The trouble is there are many who begin in the faith, only to later leave the path of faith.

Below are four links to brief case studies of those who left the path of faith which leads to life. Such brief case studies are usually ignored by eternal securitists

Charles Templeton http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1401982&postcount=99

Bron Clifford http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1402352&postcount=119

Bill Bradley http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1403631&postcount=136

An unnamed Pastor http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1406348&postcount=186

On the other hand you are only looking at salvation in one tense, or final salvation, when you need to be able to see salvation in all three tenses.
Those who endure to the end will find their salvation.
not those who initiate
not those who don't endure to the end
it is found at the end.
if its found at the end, then how can you lose it on the way to the end?

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 02:50 PM
I respectfully disagree – I understand both the grace of God and the salvation paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Your problem appears to be a sectarian “rationalization” that the disciple of Christ simply “falls away” from a “divine favor” but cannot lose his “eternal salvation” or that a “disciple” was never really a “true disciple” to start with. Both ideas contradict the reality taught in Scripture – the reality that a Christian never loses her “freedom of choice” when she becomes a child of God. Just as one freely chooses to “obey from the heart that form of doctrine" (Rom 6:17), one may also choose to deny “even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Pet. 2:1).” Only a true disciple of Christ is “bought” by His precious blood and it is possible for true disciples to bring upon "themselves swift destruction" when they "fall from grace".

It is not possible for one to “fall away” from where he never was nor can one be “severed from Christ” unless he was first “in Christ”. You never answered my question - how can one be “severed” from that to which he was never joined (the body of Christ)? Salvation is found only “in Christ”. Only those who are saved are “in Christ” and those Christians who have been “severed from Christ” are those Christians who have “fallen from grace” – Christians who are “bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” It doesn’t get any plainer than this – to be severed from Christ is to lose one’s salvation - the salvation that is only given to those who are in Christ.
“You are severed from Christ, you would be justified by the law; you are fallen away from grace” (Galatians 5:4)
Your question is about the branches that were severed from the olive tree. The olive tree is symbolic of Gods chosen people Israel, God severed unbelieving branches to make room for (believing Gentiles) (wild branches). Gentile branches
(me a Gentile believer haven't been severed) it was unbelieving hearts of the house of Israel that have been severed to make room for the houses of the Gentile believer's to be grafted into the olive tree.

Unbelieving Jews were severed when they rejected Christ when He came and walked and preformed sings and wonders among them, they rejected Him as Messiah, so God the father severed their branch's from the olive tree to make room for wild branches to be grafted into the olive tree, not all branches were severed just the unbelieving Jews, some Jews did believe and they were not severed.
Then God grafted into the olive tree wild branches/Gentile branch's.

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 04:05 PM
Your question is about the branches that were severed from the olive tree. The olive tree is symbolic of Gods chosen people Israel, God severed unbelieving branches to make room for (believing Gentiles) (wild branches). Gentile branches
(me a Gentile believer haven't been severed) it was unbelieving hearts of the house of Israel that have been severed to make room for the houses of the Gentile believer's to be grafted into the olive tree.

Unbelieving Jews were severed when they rejected Christ when He came and walked and preformed sings and wonders among them, they rejected Him as Messiah, so God the father severed their branch's from the olive tree to make room for wild branches to be grafted into the olive tree, not all branches were severed just the unbelieving Jews, some Jews did believe and they were not severed.
Then God grafted into the olive tree wild branches/Gentile branch's.
The “present tense” presented in Galatians 5:4 requires the verse to be read with the distinct meaning that some members of the Galatian church, which included both Jews and Gentiles had already “fallen” from their Christian walk resulting in their current condition of "fallen from grace" and “severed from Christ”. Your idea that this passage refers to Jews only is fallacious - it applies to all Christians. It would appear to any unbiased reader that the apostle Paul was not a Calvinist.

Galatians 5:4. Ye are fallen from grace - From the Gospel. They had been brought into the grace of the Gospel; and now, by readopting the Mosaic ordinances, they had apostatized from the Gospel as a system of religion, and had lost the grace communicated to their souls, by which they were preserved in a state of salvation. The peace and love of God, received by Jesus Christ, could not remain in the hearts of those who had rejected Christ. They had, therefore, in every sense of the word, fallen from grace; and whether some of them ever rose again is more than we can tell. ~ Adam Clarke

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 07:17 PM
Your question is about the branches that were severed from the olive tree. The olive tree is symbolic of Gods chosen people Israel, God severed unbelieving branches to make room for (believing Gentiles) (wild branches). Gentile branches
(me a Gentile believer haven't been severed) it was unbelieving hearts of the house of Israel that have been severed to make room for the houses of the Gentile believer's to be grafted into the olive tree.

Unbelieving Jews were severed when they rejected Christ when He came and walked and preformed sings and wonders among them, they rejected Him as Messiah, so God the father severed their branch's from the olive tree to make room for wild branches to be grafted into the olive tree, not all branches were severed just the unbelieving Jews, some Jews did believe and they were not severed.
Then God grafted into the olive tree wild branches/Gentile branch's.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Just keeping it real according to context. ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 07:18 PM
Okay... this is Maturing In Christ. Let's loose the "you are blind" type speak guys.

DSK
Oct 21st 2007, 08:23 PM
how can you lose it on the way to the end?

The same way you can drive off a cliff if you don't follow directions.

Secondly you can't get to your destination without first getting on the road.

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 08:46 PM
I think more than one posting member here is confusing grace with salvation.
you can fall from grace but, you cannot fall from salvation, salvation is a destination you are brought to by grace.

I understand grace as an opportunity, an opportunity given to us by Gods mercy to walk on the narrow path that leads to the (narrow gate) (salvation) (Christ).
Salvation is the reward of excepting grace but, the reward/salvation is at the end of the narrow path not on the narrow path, its at the end of the path, not in or on the path, salvation is at the gate, at the end of the narrow path.

Some choose to trespass off the narrow path and then find themselves in a wrong place and get back on the narrow path, they have stumbled but will still reach salvation because they come back to and follow the narrow path to the end of the path.

Then some trespass off the narrow path and don't get back on the narrow path, they've fallen from grace and, will not reach salvation which is at the end of the narrow path

losthorizon
Oct 21st 2007, 09:19 PM
I think more than one posting member here is confusing grace with salvation.
you can fall from grace but, you cannot fall from salvation, [B]salvation is a destination you are brought to by grace.
I think you misunderstand what it means to be “in Christ” and what it means to be “severed from Christ”. Those who have “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine” delivered are “preserved in a state of salvation”. “All spiritual blessings in heavenly places” are given only to those who are “in Christ” (Eph 1:3). One cannot be in a state of salvation unless he is first “in Christ” just as one cannot be “severed from Christ” unless he is first in a state of salvation. Thus when Paul speaks about those severed from Christ he is referring to those Christians who have denied Christ and forfeited the salvation they once had “in Christ”.
“You are severed from Christ, you would be justified by the law; you are fallen away from grace” (Galatians 5:4)

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 09:39 PM
I think you misunderstand what it means to be “in Christ” and what it means to be “severed from Christ”. Those who have “obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine” delivered are “preserved in a state of salvation”. “All spiritual blessings in heavenly places” are given only to those who are “in Christ” (Eph 1:3). One cannot be in a state of salvation unless he is first “in Christ” just as one cannot be “severed from Christ” unless he is first in a state of salvation. Thus when Paul speaks about those severed from Christ he is referring to those Christians who have denied Christ and forfeited the salvation they once had “in Christ”.
“You are severed from Christ, you would be justified by the law; you are fallen away from grace” (Galatians 5:4)

Grace is given to man in mercy. grace is the opportunity to reach salvation.

You reach salvation by being transformed into the likeness of Christ by continuing to walk/abide in Christ to the end. salvation is at the end.

Grace brings one to salvation, so you can fall from grace by not continuing, but you can't fall from salvation because once you reach it by grace, nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what the Father has put in the hands of Christ....when you reach salvation at the end, you are in the hands of Christ and He will present you holy and perfect to His Father (this is salvation)..through grace.

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 09:51 PM
Grace is given to man in mercy. grace is the opportunity to reach salvation.

You reach salvation by being transformed into the likeness of Christ by continuing to walk/abide in Christ to the end. salvation is at the end.

Grace brings one to salvation, so you can fall from grace by not continuing, but you can't fall from salvation because once you reach it by grace, nothing can take out of the hand of Christ what the Father has put in the hands of Christ....when you reach salvation at the end, you are in the hands of Christ and He will present you holy and perfect to His Father (this is salvation)..through grace.
Guys... in Walked's defense here... he isn't a proponent of eternal security in that you are "saved" when you begin your walk. In other words... you are saved BY FAITH and this is your hope. But you aren't saved until THE END when you've endured to the end, finishing the race set before you... etc. Sound about right Walked?

walked
Oct 21st 2007, 09:55 PM
Guys... in Walked's defense here... he isn't a proponent of eternal security in that you are "saved" when you begin your walk. In other words... you are saved BY FAITH and this is your hope. But you aren't saved until THE END when you've endured to the end, finishing the race set before you... etc. Sound about right Walked?
yep, thank you. :pp :pp :pp

I don't subscribe to any established theology. My theology, doctrine and dogma's evolve as more and more of God is revealed to me by Himself in my seeking Him.

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 10:29 PM
Well you read it and have had it revealed well. THing is... most ascribe salvation to now and they mistake what being "saved by faith" really means. ;) So they use it at the moment that they believe and that's why folks like me who believe that once you are saved then that's it;... doors lock and your saved for eternity... One can't say that because folks don't understand that we aren't saved until our race is done. Anyway... hope folks understand that in that sense... you are not ONCE SAVED always saved. But like me... once your saved then you're sure enough always saved. :)

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2007, 11:30 PM
The trouble with your logic is that a person must first be on the narrow path before he can depart from it. A person can't depart from a path he is not on. In like manner, I cannot depart from Dallas unless I am first in Dallas.


If you enter the narrow gate, and start on the narrow path, but after so far you fall off. Do you end up back outside the gate?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2007, 11:57 PM
I think what many people find so objectionable is the extremes of the "Once Saved Always Saved" stance. And there really is a point at which it becomes absurd.

To say that there is absolutely nothing we can do to gain salvation flies in the face of virtually everything Jesus said. You do have to choose to build your house on the rock, in light of the fact that you could choose to build it on the sand.

The Rock is the firm unmovable foundation, that has been laid. Jesus cried out "IT IS FINNISHED" We have to recieve that firm unmoveable foundation, before we can build on it. We are not told to shore up or improve the PERFECT foundation that has been laid.

The thing is, do we build with Gold, Silver and Precious Stone (that will not burn up in the fire) or do we build with wood, hay and stubble (that will burn in the fire)

Gold [God the Father] Silver [God the Son] and Precious Stone [God the Holy Spirit] Rare and precious commodities in the world, but lots of wood, hay and stubble (mans works)

When the house of wood, hay and stubble burns down, the solid foundation will still be there.



And to insist that a saved Christian absolutely cannot renounce their faith, become apostate, and forfeit their salvation removes all choice - and choice based on reason is what separates us from the rest of creation. There is a reason the New Testament epistles are filled with corrective teaching, encouragement and exhortations to not accept "other gospels".


To be sure, I'm not going to lose my salvation like I might lose my glasses, wallet or keys. Nor is anybody else able to put some voodoo curse on me that kicks me out of heaven. But I could choose to turn away from the Lord and renounce my faith. I cannot fathom why I would do that, but it is possible.


1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

1Co 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
1Co 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no man may boast before God.
1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1Co 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Partaker of Christ
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:19 AM
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4)Paul plainly states that those Christians who turn to the Law of Moses for salvation are “severed from Christ.” Question to you – how can one be “severed from” that to which he was never joined (the body of Christ)? Paul plainly describes those who were once “in Christ Jesus” but now they have “fallen from grace” – they “have been severed from Christ”. If one is severed from Christ he/she is certainly not in a saved condition.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We need Grace for Salvation, and we need Grace in being perfected.

Our failure does not effect our position in Heaven, but our experiences and effectiveness on earth.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:30 AM
If you enter the narrow gate, and start on the narrow path, but after so far you fall off. Do you end up back outside the gate?If you fall off the difficult path... you ain't getting through the narrow gate so no need to worry about getting kicked outside the gate. ;)

hootinannie
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:30 AM
If you enter the narrow gate, and start on the narrow path, but after so far you fall off. Do you end up back outside the gate?

Not if you simply fall and get back up again and continue on, but if you decide you don't want to go that way after all, and you turn around and go back to the gate and exit where you came in by, you wind up outside the gate.

DSK
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:10 AM
Guys... in Walked's defense here... he isn't a proponent of eternal security in that you are "saved" when you begin your walk. In other words... you are saved BY FAITH and this is your hope. But you aren't saved until THE END when you've endured to the end, finishing the race set before you... etc. Sound about right Walked?

Either way, salvation is not just spoken of as being something which we will possess in the future. While that is true, a study of the tenses of Scripture prove that salvation is also a present tense possession. To not view salvation in it's past, present, as well as it's future tense is incorrect.

A list of some Scripture referring to salvation in the either the past or present tense.

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved (present tense) it is the power of God

1 Cor 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you

Titus 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Luke 7:50 And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to them day by day those that were (past tense) saved.

Rom 8:24 For in hope were we saved (past tense) : but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?

2 Cor 2:15 For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish;

2 Tim 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

In other words. It is Biblical to look at salvation in all three tenses, not just in the future tense.

We have been saved ......... from the penalty of sin
We are saved ........... from the power of sin
We yet shall be saved ............ from the presence of sin

2 Cor 1:9 yea, we ourselves have had (past tense) the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead:
2 Cor 1:10 who delivered us (past tense) out of so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense) : on whom we have set our hope that he will yet deliver us (future tense);

DSK
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:18 AM
If you enter the narrow gate, and start on the narrow path, but after so far you fall off. Do you end up back outside the gate?

If you don't remain on the path that leads to life, you cannot ever reach the final destination which is at the end of the path.

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:21 AM
Either way, salvation is not just spoken of as being something which we will possess in the future. While that is true, a study of the tenses of Scripture prove that salvation is also a present tense possession. To not view salvation in it's past, present, as well as it's future tense is incorrect.

A list of some Scripture referring to salvation in the either the past or present tense.

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved (present tense) it is the power of God

1 Cor 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you

Titus 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Luke 7:50 And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 2:47 And the Lord added to them day by day those that were (past tense) saved.

Rom 8:24 For in hope were we saved (past tense) : but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?

2 Cor 2:15 For we are a sweet savor of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish;

2 Tim 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

In other words. It is Biblical to look at salvation in all three tenses, not just in the future tense.

We have been saved ......... from the penalty of sin
We are saved ........... from the power of sin
We yet shall be saved ............ from the presence of sin

2 Cor 1:9 yea, we ourselves have had (past tense) the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead:
2 Cor 1:10 who delivered us (past tense) out of so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense) : on whom we have set our hope that he will yet deliver us (future tense);
The topic of this thread is (can salvation be lost)
Our eternal salvation which means:
(The eternal restoration to fellowship with the Creator)
this can not be lost! ..you can lose your way to it but, once you reach it, it can not be lost.

The salvation being spoken of on this thread is:
The eternal restoration of fellowship with the Creator.

So, why don't you start a different thread here on what you see as:
The three aspects of salvation, as you see them.

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:25 AM
The topic of this thread is (can salvation be lost)
Our eternal salvation which means:
(The eternal restoration to fellowship with the Creator)
this can not be lost! ..you can lose your way to it but, once you reach it, it can not be lost.

The salvation being spoken of on this thread is:
The eternal restoration of fellowship with the Creator.

So, why don't you start a different thread here on what you see as:
The three aspects of salvation, as you see them.

So what you're saying is that once we get to heaven, we can't be kicked out?

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:56 AM
So what you're saying is that once we get to heaven, we can't be kicked out?

I don't see anywhere in scripture that any will be kicked out of fellowship with our Creator once Christ presents us holy and perfect.

I see scriptures that say nothing in heaven or on earth can take out of the hand of Christ what the Father has put in the hand of Christ.

ikester7579
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:21 AM
I don't see anywhere in scripture that any will be kicked out of fellowship with our Creator once Christ presents us holy and perfect.

I see scriptures that say nothing in heaven or on earth can take out of the hand of Christ what the Father has put in the hand of Christ.

Explain how 1/3 of the angels got kick out of Heaven? Their salvation in heaven was not secure nor eternal. Even though heaven is eternal. Man is created a little lower than the angels. So how does something considered higher in God's kingdom not have something that we do?

And I have yet to see any OSAS prove with scripture that Christ's hands, or the Hands of the Father represent the salvation covenant.

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:14 AM
Explain how 1/3 of the angels got kick out of Heaven? Their salvation in heaven was not secure nor eternal. Even though heaven is eternal. Man is created a little lower than the angels. So how does something considered higher in God's kingdom not have something that we do?

And I have yet to see any OSAS prove with scripture that Christ's hands, or the Hands of the Father represent the salvation covenant.
Angels were not promised restoration to their position through Salvation by grace...fallen man is given this promise.

What ever OSAS is I don't know...I am an obedient child of God to what has been revealed to me and, am in the process of being transformed into the likeness, holiness and perfection of Him.
So, I am not any OSAS as you label me, I am OCOGBTILHAPOH !
thats: Obedient Child Of God Being Transformed Into The Likeness, Holiness And Perfection Of Him.
And I don't prove Gods word, Gods word does that itself.

Labeling someone besides yourself shows the judgmental position of a heart.
In other words out of the mouth comes the fullness of the heart.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:23 PM
Either way, salvation is not just spoken of as being something which we will possess in the future. While that is true, a study of the tenses of Scripture prove that salvation is also a present tense possession. To not view salvation in it's past, present, as well as it's future tense is incorrect. DSK... we are saved in the present... by faith. ;) That's the point and exactly what faith is. So yes... we are saved in the present. That's what Walked is saying... you guys are just saying it differently.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:29 PM
Explain how 1/3 of the angels got kick out of Heaven? Their salvation in heaven was not secure nor eternal. Even though heaven is eternal. Man is created a little lower than the angels. So how does something considered higher in God's kingdom not have something that we do?

And I have yet to see any OSAS prove with scripture that Christ's hands, or the Hands of the Father represent the salvation covenant.Ike,

You believe that once it's all over but the shouting and everything has been defeated... those in heaven won't be secure?

DSK
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:46 PM
DSK... we are saved in the present... by faith. That's the point and exactly what faith is. So yes... we are saved in the present. That's what Walked is saying... you guys are just saying it differently.

The majority of my comments to walked's replys are based upon the following comment previously made by walked in post #36:


Walked stated;
"Where salvation is found is made clear in Gods word, its at the end and you have to endure to the end to receive it....so how can you lose something that you don't get until the end"

From that comment from walked, it appears clear to me that walked only sees salvation in the future tense, and not something that we presently possess as well.

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:29 PM
I don't see anywhere in scripture that any will be kicked out of fellowship with our Creator once Christ presents us holy and perfect.

I see scriptures that say nothing in heaven or on earth can take out of the hand of Christ what the Father has put in the hand of Christ.
The Lord adds “to the church daily” those who “should be saved” (Acts 2:47). Under your “OCOGBTILHAPOH” concept is it possible (according to Holy Writ) for a Christian whom the Lord has added to the church of God to apostatize (renounce his faith) by rejecting the Christ and be “severed from Christ” - in your words – “be kicked out of fellowship with our Creator”?
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal 5:4

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:09 PM
He's mentioned the "three aspects of salvation" a couple of times and I think that is pretty much what he is alluding to.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:10 PM
The Lord adds “to the church daily” those who “should be saved” (Acts 2:47). Under your “OCOGBTILHAPOH” concept is it possible (according to Holy Writ) for a Christian whom the Lord has added to the church of God to apostatize (renounce his faith) by rejecting the Christ and be “severed from Christ” - in your words – “be kicked out of fellowship with our Creator”?
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal 5:4
So by your quote of Galatians... you believe the same or were you using Scripture as a stab at his belief?

ikester7579
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:28 PM
Angels were not promised restoration to their position through Salvation by grace...fallen man is given this promise.

What ever OSAS is I don't know...I am an obedient child of God to what has been revealed to me and, am in the process of being transformed into the likeness, holiness and perfection of Him.
So, I am not any OSAS as you label me, I am OCOGBTILHAPOH !
thats: Obedient Child Of God Being Transformed Into The Likeness, Holiness And Perfection Of Him.
And I don't prove Gods word, Gods word does that itself.

Labeling someone besides yourself shows the judgmental position of a heart.
In other words out of the mouth comes the fullness of the heart.

Sorry, I missunderstood.:blush:

ikester7579
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:51 PM
Ike,

You believe that once it's all over but the shouting and everything has been defeated... those in heaven won't be secure?

If Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels can fall. What changed to stop it? God's word never claims we cannot sin. And it never says that we cannot have the same thing happen in heaven to us as what happened to Lucifer.

Salvation was given when Christ came down to earth. If it covered us in heaven as well, then Christ would not have to have been born a man and die. He could have done it up there instead. We may not be able to comprehend how we will not sin if the choice is still given. But I believe it is because the tempter will not be able to tempt us to sin.

We are so used to having the tempter with us testing us, we cannot imagine our minds working any other way. But when we are in heaven, I believe our minds and heart will be pure. And if someone does sin, it is because they had evil in their heart and they will be without excuse.

The tempter being gone, our minds will be more clear about what is righteous and Holy. It won't be a work to be that way, Like it is here on earth, it will come naturally. In fact, a good example of this are those people who wear beards and refuse to drive cars. Can't think of their names. But to most of us they seem corny with the way they live. But to me they are trying to get closer to God then most of us will ever know.

And if someone from heaven came to earth and were able to live like they did up there. How corny would that seem to us as they would have to be totally different in just about every way? Every move, every thought, every word, every action, etc... Would have to measure up to what is always considered holy and righteous. I think some people would get jealous like they did with Christ because this person could achieve what they could not. And would make our lives look so sinful because everyone would have the example of what our life should be.

I believe that is one of the main reasons some people resented Christ. He was what they could not be, and to see Him always reminded them of this. Calling Him a blasphemer was their way if saying that He was holier than thou, and they did not like it.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:00 PM
If Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels can fall. What changed to stop it? God's word never claims we cannot sin. And it never says that we cannot have the same thing happen in heaven to us as what happened to Lucifer.

Salvation was given when Christ came down to earth. If it covered us in heaven as well, then Christ would not have to have been born a man and die. He could have done it up there instead. We may not be able to comprehend how we will not sin if the choice is still given. But I believe it is because the tempter will not be able to tempt us to sin.

We are so used to having the tempter with us testing us, we cannot imagine our minds working any other way. But when we are in heaven, I believe our minds and heart will be pure. And if someone does sin, it is because they had evil in their heart and they will be without excuse.

The tempter being gone, our minds will be more clear about what is righteous and Holy. It won't be a work to be that way, Like it is here on earth, it will come naturally. In fact, a good example of this are those people who wear beards and refuse to drive cars. Can't think of their names. But to most of us they seem corny with the way they live. But to me they are trying to get closer to God then most of us will ever know.

And if someone from heaven came to earth and were able to live like they did up there. How corny would that seem to us as they would have to be totally different in just about every way? Every move, every thought, every word, every action, etc... Would have to measure up to what is always considered holy and righteous. I think some people would get jealous like they did with Christ because this person could achieve what they could not. And would make our lives look so sinful because everyone would have the example of what our life should be.

I believe that is one of the main reasons some people resented Christ. He was what they could not be, and to see Him always reminded them of this. Calling Him a blasphemer was their way if saying that He was holier than thou, and they did not like it.
How do you figure they'll even enter heaven with "evil in their hearts?"

ikester7579
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:08 PM
How do you figure they'll even enter heaven with "evil in their hearts?"

How did Lucifer do what he did while in Heaven? Considering the angels were created perfect, and we are born into sin. What is going to give us the advantage on the issue over the angels?

Marriage still has divorce. The covenant in this since does not change. And unlike how Adam and Eve were created (not knowing good and evil), we have already been exposed to it.

Christ will rule and reign with a rod for a reason. We will need correction. That is what a rod is for. So if it's not being used for correction, then what does Christ need it for? Spare the rod, spoil the child. And we are called what? His children.

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:08 PM
So by your quote of Galatians... you believe the same or were you using Scripture as a stab at his belief?
Since semantics can be confusing on this subject let me post a “traditional” definition of OSAS:
OSAS: This is an acronym for "Once Saved, Always Saved." It is the belief, common among many conservative Protestants, that once a person repents of their sin and trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they are forever saved and will attain heaven after death. They cannot lose their salvation by changing their belief or by engaging in an evil activity. (TranslationDisctionary.com)I believe the passage in Galatians 5:4 teaches that a Christian can so apostatize that he/she can be “severed from Christ” which would contradict the OSAS statement presented above. And what about you – do you believe a Christian is “forever saved” after he/she “trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior”?

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:20 PM
Since semantics can be confusing on this subject let me post a “traditional” definition of OSAS:
OSAS: This is an acronym for "Once Saved, Always Saved." It is the belief, common among many conservative Protestants, that once a person repents of their sin and trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they are forever saved and will attain heaven after death. They cannot lose their salvation by changing their belief or by engaging in an evil activity. (TranslationDisctionary.com)I believe the passage in Galatians 5:4 teaches that a Christian can so apostatize that he/she can be “severed from Christ” which would contradict the OSAS statement presented above. And what about you – do you believe a Christian is “forever saved” after he/she “trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior”?
I dont believe this and Project Peter seems to have clearly said he doesn't believe this either.

I believe you reach salvation at the end of the narrow path, just as scripture teaches (those who endure to the end will be saved)...I think parts of ourselves are reborn when we trust Jesus Christ as lord and savior but, I don't believe this rebirth saves us immediately..I believe we are saved at the end (the end being our earthly death or Christ return, whichever comes first) AND I believe we can fall from grace before we get to the end but we cant lose our salvation from that fall because clearly we didn't have salvation yet because we haven't endured to the end 'where salvation is found'

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:32 PM
Build your house on this foundation (Christ) and your house will stand/be saved.

Just knowing that there is a foundation doesn't save the house, you have to build ON the foundation to save the house from falling.

Just as knowing Christ is the savior doesn't save you, you have to build your life upon Him to be saved, or to stand to the end to be saved.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:42 PM
How did Lucifer do what he did while in Heaven? Considering the angels were created perfect, and we are born into sin. What is going to give us the advantage on the issue over the angels?

Marriage still has divorce. The covenant in this since does not change. And unlike how Adam and Eve were created (not knowing good and evil), we have already been exposed to it.

Christ will rule and reign with a rod for a reason. We will need correction. That is what a rod is for. So if it's not being used for correction, then what does Christ need it for? Spare the rod, spoil the child. And we are called what? His children.We are speaking after Christ's rule and reign.

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:45 PM
Build your house on this foundation (Christ) and your house will stand/be saved.

Just knowing that there is a foundation doesn't save the house, you have to build ON the foundation to save the house from falling.

Just as knowing Christ is the savior doesn't save you, you have to build your life upon Him to be saved, or to stand to the end to be saved.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:47 PM
Since semantics can be confusing on this subject let me post a “traditional” definition of OSAS:
OSAS: This is an acronym for "Once Saved, Always Saved." It is the belief, common among many conservative Protestants, that once a person repents of their sin and trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they are forever saved and will attain heaven after death. They cannot lose their salvation by changing their belief or by engaging in an evil activity. (TranslationDisctionary.com)I believe the passage in Galatians 5:4 teaches that a Christian can so apostatize that he/she can be “severed from Christ” which would contradict the OSAS statement presented above. And what about you – do you believe a Christian is “forever saved” after he/she “trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior”?
Tis why I asked for clarification... seems we're on the same page. :)

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:57 PM
Since semantics can be confusing on this subject let me post a “traditional” definition of OSAS:
OSAS: This is an acronym for "Once Saved, Always Saved." It is the belief, common among many conservative Protestants, that once a person repents of their sin and trusts Jesus as Lord and Savior, then they are forever saved and will attain heaven after death. They cannot lose their salvation by changing their belief or by engaging in an evil activity. (TranslationDisctionary.com)

I don't believe this OSAS statement either.

I believe parts of us are reborn when we initially have faith that Christ is our Lord and Savior.
These parts being reborn in us isn't salvation, it is what we use to be transformed into what God the Father requires of us (obedience)

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:28 PM
I dont believe this and Project Peter seems to have clearly said he doesn't believe this either.

I believe you reach salvation at the end of the narrow path, just as scripture teaches (those who endure to the end will be saved)...I think parts of ourselves are reborn when we trust Jesus Christ as lord and savior but, I don't believe this rebirth saves us immediately..I believe we are saved at the end (the end being our earthly death or Christ return, whichever comes first) AND I believe we can fall from grace before we get to the end but we cant lose our salvation from that fall because clearly we didn't have salvation yet because we haven't endured to the end 'where salvation is found'
I think we may be in agreement regarding the OSAS statement but I will respectfully disagree with your concept that salvation is only a future event. I think the Bible teaches that where there is forgiveness of sins (“in Christ Jesus”) there is also spiritual life and salvation, i.e., individual salvation is a present reality for those “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and those who continue to “walk in the light as he is in the light.”

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:31 PM
It amazes me how some put the cart BEFORE the horse . The Gospel of Christ is simple . God by HIS GRACE saves through faith ( Eph. 2:8,9) . Works are a result of salvation not for salvation . Its about what Jesus Christ did at calvary , not what we have done (Galations2:16) . Cant mingle law and grace . Its not the blood of Christ plus works . Although fruit will result from true conversion. Why belittle the power of Christ blood . It saves and keeps . If your salvation depends on you then you must be under tremendous bondage .

Our works are the evidence of Christ blood working in our lives.
I'm sorry if I caused you to misunderstand my thoughts on the process of restoration to fellowship with our Creator.
Faith with out works is dead <---- Gods words not mine.

walked
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:39 PM
I think we may be in agreement regarding the OSAS statement but I will respectfully disagree with your concept that salvation is only a future event. I think the Bible teaches that where there is forgiveness of sins (“in Christ Jesus”) there is also spiritual life and salvation, i.e., individual salvation is a present reality for those “washed in the blood of the Lamb” and those who continue to “walk in the light as he is in the light.”

I will except that there is present salvation/redemption/rebirth of our spirit at the initial decision to except and believe that Christ is Jesus and, that He is the only way, the only truth and the only life.

And I will except that there is an ongoing salvation/redemption/renewal of our mind/thinking if we continue to abide in Him with obedience.

The salvation I see in the future is (the eternal restoration of our fellowship with our Creator)

.................................................. .................................................. ...............
But, the salvation that I am focused on is my future eternal/salvation/restoration of fellowship with our Creator, If I stay focused on this all of the rest (present and ongoing aspects) will automatically fall in line to His (future) will for me....this is the goal set before me, the reward at the (((end))) of my race! The narrow gate at the end of the narrow path is my target, my aim, my focus.

The other two aspects are reminders of my shame and my guilt!
The one I want to stay focused on is my hope, my joy, my eternity! .................................................. .................................................. ...............
This is what I've been posting on because I saw it as the topic of this thread.
....And we cant lose this part/aspect of our salvation because we don't receive it until the end of our earthly life or at Christ returns to claim what He purchased with His blood on the cross, which ever comes first.

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:54 PM
I will except that there is present salvation/redemption/rebirth of our spirit at the initial decision to except and believe that Christ is Jesus and, that He is the only way, the only truth and the only life.

And I will except that there is an ongoing salvation/redemption/renewal of our mind/thinking if we continue to abide in Him with obedience.

The salvation I see in the future is (the eternal restoration of our fellowship with our Creator)

.................................................. .................................................. ...............
But, the salvation that I am focused on is my future eternal/salvation/restoration of fellowship with our Creator, If I stay focused on this all of the rest (present and ongoing aspects) will automatically fall in line to His (future) will for me....this is the goal set before me, the reward at the (((end))) of my race! The narrow gate at the end of the narrow path is my target, my aim, my focus.

The other two aspects are reminders of my shame and my guilt!
The one I want to stay focused on is my hope, my joy, my eternity! .................................................. .................................................. ...............
This is what I've been posting on because I saw it as the topic of this thread.
....And we cant lose this part/aspect of our salvation because we don't receive it until the end of our earthly life or at Christ returns to claim what He purchased with His blood on the cross, which ever comes first.
But didn’t the "Word of life" that was with the Father and was manifested in Jesus Christ come into the world that we might have fellowship with the Father and Son now in this present state so that our “joy may be full” today? Isn’t this “restoration of fellowship with our Creator” that you speak about something that we can partake of today if we are “in Christ” where all spiritual blessing are to be found - now?
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ… And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 1 John 1These inspiring words were written in the “present tense” in the 1st Century – our fellowship and restoration with God that is ours through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross is a restoration and fellowship that we can enjoy today as well as something that we can look forward to yet future - on that “Day” - “We know not what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:05 PM
But didn’t the "Word of life" that was with the Father and was manifested in Jesus Christ come into the world that we might have fellowship with the Father and Son now in this present state so that our “joy may be full” today? Isn’t this “restoration of fellowship with our Creator” that you speak about something that we can partake of today if we are “in Christ” where all spiritual blessing are to be found - now?
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ… And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 1 John 1These inspiring words were written in the “present tense” in the 1st Century – our fellowship and restoration with God that is ours through the sacrifice of His Son on the cross is a restoration and fellowship that we can enjoy today as well as something that we can look forward to yet future - on that “Day” - “We know not what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."
We know that why? Is the answer not "Faith?"

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:40 PM
We know that why? Is the answer not "Faith?"
You will have to be more specific regarding your inquiry. We are told that without faith it is impossible to please God and He is the rewarder of those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). We know what is presented in 1 John 1 by revelation and we accept that revelation by faith. Does that help?

Friend of I AM
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:00 PM
Hey all. Been awhile since I posted. I probably won't post for a bit again. This topic just got me thinking about how we as Christians can get caught up so much in semantics, that we can tend to forget the simplicity of the Love being offered by God through the gospel.

I think everyone is a bit correct on this one. Certainly there are those who will walk with God there entire lives and will never lose their salvation. Just as there are those who go on and off the path, as well as those who have never been on the path to begin with. There's really a lot of scenrios to play with when you think about it. I'm not going to post any scripture as most of this has already been done very well by many of you on here.

It's funny that we as human beings sometime make God out to be this one dimensional character who is only limited to doing certain things and having this one plan that is limited to our understanding. I try not to do this anymore, but man it's hard. I guess this is why it is so important for us to trust not in our own understanding, but just to have faith that God will get us to the end. Remember - through him the impossible becomes possible. Anyway that's all for now. Take care in Christian Love.

walked
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:04 AM
But didn’t the "Word of life" that was with the Father and was manifested in Jesus Christ come into the world that we might have fellowship with the Father and Son now in this present state so that our “joy may be full” today? Isn’t this “restoration of fellowship with our Creator” that you speak about something that we can partake of today if we are “in Christ” where all spiritual blessing are to be found - now?
You just keep ignoring what I say :
((((eternal fellowship)))) not just fellowship, eternal fellowship that is unpolluted by my flesh and the stains of the fallen world, where I can behold Him in His fullness and receive everything He has for me, eyes have not seen nor ears heard or minds conceived what glories are in store for those that love Him.
You seem to focus on only what you can behold or participate in of Gods glories in this temporal world and, wont even consider looking beyond at what is in store in eternity for those that love Him.
Here on this thread you choose to consistently ignore this.
Thats fine with me.
....I place my hope in the future, where Christ left this world to go prepare a place for me, a place that even the most Godly of our patriarchs cant describe with words.
Don't place to much hope in what can be beheld in this temporal world, there is more friend, much, much, much more!

losthorizon
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:38 AM
You just keep ignoring what I say :
((((eternal fellowship)))) not just fellowship, eternal fellowship that is unpolluted by my flesh and the stains of the fallen world, where I can behold Him in his fullness and receive everything He has for me, eyes have not seen nor ears heard or minds conceived what glories are in store for those that love Him.
You seem to focus on only what you can behold or participate in of Gods glories in this temporal world and, wont even consider looking beyond at what is in store in eternity for those that love Him.
Here on this thread you choose to consistently ignore this.
Thats fine with me.
....I place my hope in the future, where Christ left this world to go prepare a place for me, a place that even the most Godly of our patriarchs cant describe with words.
Don't place to much hope in what can be beheld in this temporal world, there is more friend, much, much, much more!

I am not ignoring what you post, brother I am pointing out that we can and should enjoy fellowship “with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ” now in this “fallen world”. This fellowship IS part of our eternal fellowship - God is eternal. The Lord tells us to enjoy this fellowship in the here and now: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him…”

In this life we are encouraged to “set apart Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.” This hope and this fellowship are for us to enjoy today – we do not have to wait for this “temporal world” to end. Certainly, Jesus tells us here to store up our treasures in heaven but He also wants us to sup with Him in fellowship today. :)

walked
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:44 AM
I am not ignoring what you post, brother I am pointing out that we can and should enjoy fellowship “with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ” now in this “fallen world”. This fellowship IS part of our eternal fellowship - God is eternal. The Lord tells us to enjoy this fellowship in the here and now: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him…”

In this life we are encouraged to “set apart Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.” This hope and this fellowship are for us to enjoy today – we do not have to wait for this “temporal world” to end. Certainly, Jesus tells us here to store up our treasures in heaven but He also wants us to sup with Him in fellowship today. :)

Why quote me to state this truth, have I denied this truth in any of my post. Your post was peppered with question marks directed at me like I was denying these truths, you weren't trying to point out anything but questioning/drilling me as if I denied these points....its exposed above in black and white print in post #83, who do you think you are fooling.

I clearly said only that I look past the temporal horizon I focus, aim, target my future salvation/restoration of fellowship with our Creator.
I haven't denied that I can and do enjoy the grace that allows me to fellowship now with the Creator, So why quote me to make your point.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to start another thread to make these points since this threads topic is 'can salvation be lost'

farewell.

walked
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:15 PM
I believe salvation is a process.

The first part is your initial repentance and acknowledging that you are a sinful lost fallen creature.This is also an active or ongoing process, we have to repent each time we fail or each time new sin in us is revealed by His word.

The second part is the cross or calvary, it is the sacrifice offered by God to restore His fallen creation and creatures. This is a one time thing no other ways to use this other than a ransom paid by Christ for our healing and restoration to the Creator, there is no other way.

The third part is abiding in Him/His word, walking in faith or in the light of His revelations in His word. This is an active ongoing part to salvation where one will grow in the likeness, holiness and perfection of the Lord.
(no one who is not perfect and holy will stand before God)
Christ sacrifice and His works and words on earth, they are our ladder to heaven, each step we take or each time we grow in our knowledge of Him and His word it brings us closer to heaven and is transforming us each new step we take up on this ladder. The path or ladder is narrow and leads to one narrow gate (Christ) our Advocate in heaven and our Redeemer, our Savior, our Shepard, our Teacher, our Gate to fellowship with the Creator.

Now if one stays focussed on the one who hung on the cross (Christ Jesus) and abides in obedience to His word AND keeps repenting and confessing ones sins as they are revealed to us by us abiding in His word....
Then you have found salvation and, if you keep abiding in Him/His words, then you wont lose it, His words will keep/guard you! (seal you)

I think one can lose their way on the narrow path that leads to salvation but, I don't see losing salvation as a possibility because you don't receive until the end (salvation in regard to your eternal fellowship being restored with the Creator)
He who endures to the end will be saved.

Now about the christians in the book of revelations in danger of being spewed out of the mouth of Christ for being lukewarm, I'm really not sure if that means they have or will lose their salvation, kinda sounds that way but, honestly I'm not sure one way or the other....its a good question, very good question.

DSK
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:10 PM
I believe salvation is a process.



What is your understanding of sanctification?

.

walked
Oct 23rd 2007, 10:35 PM
What is your understanding of sanctification?

.
I'd be happy to share my understanding of sanctification if you start another thread on sanctification.

This tread was started by a confused brother in Christ and wasn't started to answer your questions about my understanding of sanctification.
It was started because this brother was confused about the position we have in salvation and the book of revelation where lukewarm christians are in danger of being spewed out of the mouth of Christ.
....thats what I will discuss on this thread.

I think we would better serve the body of Christ if we express the truth as we see it on this topic and, NOT challenge different opinions on this topic in this thread.

DSK
Oct 23rd 2007, 11:56 PM
I'd be happy to share my understanding of sanctification if you start another thread on sanctification.

This tread was started by a confused brother in Christ and wasn't started to answer your questions about my understanding of sanctification.
It was started because this brother was confused about the position we have in salvation and the book of revelation where lukewarm christians are in danger of being spewed out of the mouth of Christ.
....thats what I will discuss on this thread.

I think we would better serve the body of Christ if we express the truth as we see it on this topic and, NOT challenge different opinions on this topic in this thread.

The only reason I asked was because you stated that salvation is a process, and it seems to me that you may be confusing salvation with sanctification. But if you choose to not answer, I understand.

DSK
Oct 24th 2007, 12:01 AM
I'd be happy to share my understanding of sanctification if you start another thread on sanctification.


Here is the new thread on sanctification which you requested.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1418924&postcount=1

.

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 12:07 AM
...I think we would better serve the body of Christ if we express the truth as we see it on this topic and, NOT challenge different opinions on this topic in this thread.
The OP presents two inquiries – (1) “at the time we are saved we are sealed” and (2) what about “lukewarm Christians” being “spewed out”.

According to the words of Jesus, one who believes and is baptized “shall be saved” (Mark 16:16) - future tense. The ordinance of Christian baptism is a sign and seal that our sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ. So yes, when we are saved we are sealed in that respect. Paul explained to Titus that it was by the “kindness and mercy” of God that we are saved - He “saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:4-5). Please note the use of the “past tense” as it relates to salvation – God “saved us”. Salvation is past, present and future – it’s starting point for the penitent believer is baptism (1 Pet. 3:21), but it is finally "to be revealed in the last time” (1 Pet. 1:5). Our witness to “being saved” is remaining firm in the faith...until the end. “Be faithful until death," Jesus says, "and I will give you the crown of life.


Can lukewarm Christians be “spewed out”? According to Jesus and the NT writers – yes, a Christian can be “severed from Christ” through unbelief and apostasy.

walked
Oct 24th 2007, 12:49 AM
Until the end, I take that to mean the end of this age (When Christ returns to claim what He purchased)

Until death, I take that to mean until our spirit departs our flesh in earthly death.

Both of those lead me to believe that we wont receive our eternal life
(our restoration to eternal fellowship with our Creator) until the end, so can we lose eternal fellowship while we are still alive or if Christ hasn't returned yet, if we don't get eternal fellowship until death or Christ return.
I think we CAN lose are way to eternal fellowship (fall from grace)

If we don't receive eternal fellowship until the end, we can't then lose eternal fellowship in this life or in this age, because we don't have eternal fellowship in this life or this age....we can only lose our way to eternal fellowship in this life and in this age.

Does that explain my thoughts better?

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 01:09 AM
...Does that explain my thoughts better?
I understand you position but I think you misunderstand salvation. Certainly, salvation is a goal - a continuous process - but it also is a present reality in the here and now - God “saved us", through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit”. You do understand what past tense means - right? We “are saved” at the point of our baptism “into Christ” – being baptized “into His death” (Rom 6: 3-5).

walked
Oct 24th 2007, 01:25 AM
I understand you position but I think you misunderstand salvation. Certainly, salvation is a goal - a continuous process - but it also is a present reality in the here and now - God “saved us", through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit”. You do understand what past tense means - right? We “are saved” at the point of our baptism “into Christ” – being baptized “into His death” (Rom 6: 3-5).

I thought I explained that I believe this present and ongoing parts to our salvation in a prior post of mine here which I will repost now, since even though you quoted this post of mine you seemed to have missed where I said I except these parts of present and ongoing salvation.

post no#82////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I will except that there is present salvation/redemption/rebirth of our spirit at the initial decision to except and believe that Christ is Jesus and, that He is the only way, the only truth and the only life.

And I will except that there is an ongoing salvation/redemption/renewal of our mind/thinking if we continue to abide in Him with obedience.

The salvation I see in the future is (the eternal restoration of our fellowship with our Creator)
And, the salvation that I am supremely focused on is my future
eternal salvation/restoration of fellowship with our Creator, If I stay focused on this, all of the rest (present and ongoing aspects) will automatically fall in line to His (future) will for me....this is the goal set before me, the reward at the(((end)))of my race ! The narrow gate at the end of the narrow path is my target, my aim, my focus.

The other two aspects (present an ongoing) are reminders of my shame and my guilt!
The one I want to stay focused on is my (future) my hope, my joy, my eternity!

end post no#82///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

losthorizon
Oct 24th 2007, 03:53 AM
...The narrow gate at the end of the narrow path is my target, my aim, my focus.

The other two aspects (present an ongoing) are reminders of my shame and my guilt!
The one I want to stay focused on is my (future) my hope, my joy, my
And I prefer "to give the reason for the hope that I have" to my fellow man, focusing on being “faithful until death” and then looking forward to receiving “the crown of life”. :)

ikester7579
Oct 24th 2007, 10:25 AM
We are speaking after Christ's rule and reign.

Yes, and Christ will become the bridegroom when we leave the earth after the 1000 years. If the angels were able to sin in heaven, what keeps us from doing it also? And what scripture would you use to back it up? What does not change remains the same. And because sin cannot exist in heaven, if one of us do sin. I believe one of two things must happen.

1) We are either corrected.
2) We are cast out.

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2007, 10:47 AM
I can give you a great place to look up verses if you want. I find it a woderful resource. www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)

jeffweeder
Oct 24th 2007, 11:58 AM
can Salvation be lost?

Maybe it can brother.
God created us to live not to die, that took something that we did.
It took Christ to give himself to you, to get you out of death and back to God.

We are warned in Rev 3, written specifically to the church he died for, that we need to keep our eyes on him and his holiness, or he will rub our name out of the book of life.

All who's names are not in this book are thrown into the lake of fire.
So it appears that people of God can go to far, and lose what was so graciously given........

walked
Oct 24th 2007, 07:45 PM
I can give you a great place to look up verses if you want. I find it a woderful resource. www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com)

Hey, thanks for the bible resource link.

God bless you.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2007, 07:46 PM
Not if you simply fall and get back up again and continue on, but if you decide you don't want to go that way after all, and you turn around and go back to the gate and exit where you came in by, you wind up outside the gate.

Thanks Hoot!
So if the children of Israel, having come out of Egypt, crossed the Red Sea and travelled in so far into the wilderness. If they then decided 'I want to go back to Egypt'. Would God have parted the Red Sea again to let them go back?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2007, 08:11 PM
If you don't remain on the path that leads to life, you cannot ever reach the final destination which is at the end of the path.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Let us stick to what the Lord tells us:
Every gate entered through has a path.
We are only told here to enter the right gate 'The strait gate' If we enter the right gate, then we are on the right path 'the narrow path'

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

"neither shall ye touch it," Did God say?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2007, 08:46 PM
How did Lucifer do what he did while in Heaven? Considering the angels were created perfect, and we are born into sin. What is going to give us the advantage on the issue over the angels?

Marriage still has divorce. The covenant in this since does not change. And unlike how Adam and Eve were created (not knowing good and evil), we have already been exposed to it.

Christ will rule and reign with a rod for a reason. We will need correction. That is what a rod is for. So if it's not being used for correction, then what does Christ need it for? Spare the rod, spoil the child. And we are called what? His children.

Hi Ike!

I think we need to consider a couple of things here.
God is Spirit, and the angels are spirit.
There is a big difference between angels and man. For the angels to rebel they were fully clear about what they did, and yet they still chose to rebel against God.

There is a difference between God breathing life into man, and having God's life in us through His Son.
Adam was perfect 'as man' being innocent of any sin, but he had not yet received God's life 'The Tree of Life'

When we are presented to the Father, we will be like Him (Jesus Christ) without spot, blemish or blame.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2007, 09:10 PM
I dont believe this and Project Peter seems to have clearly said he doesn't believe this either.

I believe you reach salvation at the end of the narrow path, just as scripture teaches (those who endure to the end will be saved)...I think parts of ourselves are reborn when we trust Jesus Christ as lord and savior but, I don't believe this rebirth saves us immediately..I believe we are saved at the end (the end being our earthly death or Christ return, whichever comes first) AND I believe we can fall from grace before we get to the end but we cant lose our salvation from that fall because clearly we didn't have salvation yet because we haven't endured to the end 'where salvation is found'

Hi walked!

In context:
The "those who endure to the end will be saved" is not talking about our 'salvation'
(MKJV) But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.

This is speaking about the time of the end (Tribulation)

DSK
Oct 24th 2007, 10:16 PM
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Let us stick to what the Lord tells us:
Every gate entered through has a path.
We are only told here to enter the right gate 'The strait gate' If we enter the right gate, then we are on the right path 'the narrow path'



If I go out the door of my house and get in my car, with the intention of driving to Chicago, and then drive to the toll-gate of I-90 at Buffalo, it will take me from Buffalo to Chicago. But if I fall asleep at the wheel, crash and burn in Cleveland then I will never reach my final destination which originally was Chicago. Although the road could have lead me to Chicago, I didn't stay awake, and my destination was never reached.

.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2007, 11:01 PM
If I go out the door of my house and get in my car, with the intention of driving to Chicago, and then drive to the toll-gate of I-90 at Buffalo, it will take me from Buffalo to Chicago. But if I fall asleep at the wheel, crash and burn in Cleveland then I will never reach my final destination which originally was Chicago. Although the road could have lead me to Chicago, I didn't stay awake, and my destination was never reached.

.

True enough story, but this is not what Jesus said?

He said for us to "Enter ye in at the strait gate"
Why would we add to what He said?

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 24th 2007, 11:32 PM
True enough story, but this is not what Jesus said?

He said for us to "Enter ye in at the strait gate"
Why would we add to what He said?

Since we are quoting Jesus I'll add...

John 15
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who ABIDE (KJV uses remain) in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not ABIDE in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Now the definition of "abide"...
From dictionary.com
1.to remain; continue; stay: Abide with me. 2.to have one's abode; dwell; reside: to abide in a small Scottish village. 3.to continue in a particular condition, attitude, relationship, etc.; last.

To remain in the VINE you would have to be part of the VINE at some point. A lost person is NOT part of Jesus' vine! Jesus tells us that IF you do not continue to ABIDE with Him you will be thrown in the fire and burned. In other words cast out!

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 25th 2007, 12:23 AM
Hi walked!

In context:
The "those who endure to the end will be saved" is not talking about our 'salvation'
(MKJV) But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.

This is speaking about the time of the end (Tribulation)

The Bible speaks in places other than Revelation about enduring to the end. Let's look at these verses...

Eph 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God,

Heb 11
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 8
24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

1 Pet
9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Saved by faith...Faith is substance of things hoped for...If you already have salvation then there is no need for hope since you can't hope for what you already have. You can only hope for what you do not have yet and eagerly wait for it! I believe at the moment I accepted Christ I was QUALIFIED for salvation but I will not ATTAIN salvation until the END of my faith.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 25th 2007, 12:38 AM
Since we are quoting Jesus I'll add...

John 15
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who ABIDE (KJV uses remain) in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Whoever does not ABIDE in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Now the definition of "abide"...
From dictionary.com
1.to remain; continue; stay: Abide with me. 2.to have one's abode; dwell; reside: to abide in a small Scottish village. 3.to continue in a particular condition, attitude, relationship, etc.; last.

To remain in the VINE you would have to be part of the VINE at some point. A lost person is NOT part of Jesus' vine! Jesus tells us that IF you do not ABIDE with Him you will be thrown in the fire and burned. In other words cast out!

Hi 2Peter!

Sorry but if this is read correctly, it does not speak of one loosing their salvation.

We could lose or miss out on rewards (stored up treasures in heaven)
Why be told to store up treasures in heaven, if their is a chance that we could not get there?

sjorgens
Oct 25th 2007, 12:55 AM
I've heard this debate before. Being the babe in Christ that I am, I must confess that I really don't know the answer to this question. I will say this, I first prayed the sinners prayer when I was 17. That was 27 years ago. It might have been that I was saved then and just didn't grasp it. But not until just recently did I ever consider giving my problems and desires to God. I did it my way. And believe me I was MISERABLE. Hell on earth and it caused alot of destruction in my life. And for sure I didn't feel saved. I just don't know but I did ask Jesus to save me in an alter call. I was serious because I didn't like the thought of hell. Still don't. For 27 years I've complained and whined to God about my miserable life. "Why don't you fix this mess?!". The truth is I never gave him a chance because I was too busy trying to fix it with my various sins. I wouldn't get out of the way. If it is OSAS, its sure not very much fun getting saved and then living like hell in hell. Still, I knew the threat of hell and it terrified me but it was never enough to change me. The only thing that changes me is turning my problems over to God and trusting that he will meet my needs. The outcome of this is that I sin less but I don't get defeated anymore because I know if I mess up, I can get up an turn towards God again and he still wants me. (Thanks to what Jesus did)Its the faith that does the trick ,not the will to obstain from sin because my will was far too weak. Actually the more I willed to be a good boy, the worse I became. I guess I didn't answer the OSAS question but its just my perception. I can now follow my creator because I'm covered when I blow it. He cleans me up perhaps with a devine swat are two. Its possible that the last 27 years of my life was a spanking from God because of my defiance. Eitherway, Hells no good neither is waiting in Hell on earth until you die.
God's Blessing to everybody here!
Sjorgens

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 25th 2007, 01:03 AM
Hi 2Peter!

Sorry but if this is read correctly, it does not speak of one loosing their salvation.

We could lose or miss out on rewards (stored up treasures in heaven)
Why be told to store up treasures in heaven, if their is a chance that we could not get there?

Hello,

Sure, being "thrown away into the fire" sounds like a trip to Heaven to me! If we look at the rest of Jesus' words throughout the Gospels Jesus spoke many times about being burned and cast out into darkness and it always says where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I guess this is another description of Heaven as well. Right???


Matthew 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=8&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=42&version=31&context=verse)
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=50&version=31&context=verse)
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 24:51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=51&version=31&context=verse)
He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'All of these sound like an ideal picture of Heaven! Come on!

DSK
Oct 25th 2007, 01:08 AM
True enough story, but this is not what Jesus said?

He said for us to "Enter ye in at the strait gate"
Why would we add to what He said?

If you only state the part of the Biblical text which says "Enter ye in at the strait gate" you don't have the full picture. The next verse says: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Life is not immediately on the other side of the strait gate. Directly on the other side of the gate is found the way and the way (or road) "leads to life" But you need to stay on the way or road until you reach the end of the road where your journey comes to an end and glorification is consumated.

.

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 02:24 AM
Thanks Hoot!
So if the children of Israel, having come out of Egypt, crossed the Red Sea and travelled in so far into the wilderness. If they then decided 'I want to go back to Egypt'. Would God have parted the Red Sea again to let them go back?
Nope... He would have done what He was going to do when speaking to Moses... He'd of just taken them out. It would have been that simple.

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 02:28 AM
Yes, and Christ will become the bridegroom when we leave the earth after the 1000 years. If the angels were able to sin in heaven, what keeps us from doing it also? And what scripture would you use to back it up? What does not change remains the same. And because sin cannot exist in heaven, if one of us do sin. I believe one of two things must happen.

1) We are either corrected.
2) We are cast out.The difference is Christ. If you want to start a new thread on this then do and holler at me. To keep going this route is going to take us way off the beaten path.

walked
Oct 25th 2007, 05:57 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on the lukewarm christians in the book of Revelation in danger of being spewed out of the mouth of Christ....do ya think this might mean 'in danger of losing their eternal salvation' ?

This is also part of the OP question on this thread.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 25th 2007, 02:03 PM
If you only state the part of the Biblical text which says "Enter ye in at the strait gate" you don't have the full picture. The next verse says: "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Life is not immediately on the other side of the strait gate. Directly on the other side of the gate is found the way and the way (or road) "leads to life" But you need to stay on the way or road until you reach the end of the road where your journey comes to an end and glorification is consumated.

.

But the command that Jesus gave was "Enter ye in at the strait gate" nothing more and nothing less. The rest of what you put is just leaning on your own understanding.

If I gave you a Picasso painting, would you get some paint and brushed out to add to a perfection?

When Jesus cried out "IT IS FINISHED" It was finished, and it was Perfect. Why would we add something to a work that was/is perfect?

Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luke 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luke 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luke 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth ambassadors, and desireth conditions of peace.

Did Jesus know the 'full' cost of laying the foundation and building His Church?
Would we mock Him saying He was not able to finish?

Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 25th 2007, 02:28 PM
Anyone have any thoughts on the lukewarm christians in the book of Revelation in danger of being spewed out of the mouth of Christ....do ya think this might mean 'in danger of losing their eternal salvation' ?

This is also part of the OP question on this thread.

Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev 3:19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

We are not saved by our deeds (works), but we are rewarded "so That you may become rich" There deeds are wood, hay and stubble, and not Gold, Silver and Precious Stone.

Jesus is saying "I advise you to buy from me, or Because of my love for you, I will reprove and discipline you. He will not leave us as bastards.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

DSK
Oct 25th 2007, 02:50 PM
But the command that Jesus gave was "Enter ye in at the strait gate" nothing more and nothing less. The rest of what you put is just leaning on your own understanding.


Let me post the Scripture which our discussion is based upon, and then attempt to better explain the point I was attempting to make.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

In your replies you have only focused on the first 4 words, "Enter through the narrow gate" of those two verses. I have been trying to focus on the entire thought presented by that Scripture.

The verse is speaking of a gate which one needs to enter through

Once you enter through the gate you immediately spot a road

Now this road is said to lead to life. That basically means that on the opposite side of the narrow gate lies a road which leads to life which must be traveled. If I were to enter through the gate, and stay put without traveling on the road which is said leads to life, then I would never reach what the road is said to lead to. We who currently possess salvation have already entered through the narrow door, but we have not as yet arrived at our final destination which is heaven. We are on the road which leads to Heaven, but we have to walk in that direction one step at a time. We can't remain standing still and expect to arrive at what awaits us at the end of the road.

I hope that better expains the point I was making.

.

walked
Oct 25th 2007, 03:00 PM
Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev 3:19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

We are not saved by our deeds (works), but we are rewarded "so That you may become rich" There deeds are wood, hay and stubble, and not Gold, Silver and Precious Stone.

Jesus is saying "I advise you to buy from me, or Because of my love for you, I will reprove and discipline you. He will not leave us as bastards.

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Nice explanation, encouraging explanation too and, very descriptive of our Creators mercy, grace love and compassion.

Thank you.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 25th 2007, 08:16 PM
Let me post the Scripture which our discussion is based upon, and then attempt to better explain the point I was attempting to make.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Mat 7:14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.

In your replies you have only focused on the first 4 words, "Enter through the narrow gate" of those two verses. I have been trying to focus on the entire thought presented by that Scripture.

The verse is speaking of a gate which one needs to enter through

Once you enter through the gate you immediately spot a road

Now this road is said to lead to life. That basically means that on the opposite side of the narrow gate lies a road which leads to life which must be traveled. If I were to enter through the gate, and stay put without traveling on the road which is said leads to life, then I would never reach what the road is said to lead to. We who currently possess salvation have already entered through the narrow door, but we have not as yet arrived at our final destination which is heaven. We are on the road which leads to Heaven, but we have to walk in that direction one step at a time. We can't remain standing still and expect to arrive at what awaits us at the end of the road.

I hope that better expains the point I was making.

.

Hi DSK! :hug:

Thanks for that!

I still believe that this is only about the gate we enter through.

Can we try it this way; If I enter the wide gate, then no matter how I walk on the wide path, it will lead to destruction. Even if I stand still, it will lead to destruction. I cannot fall off the wide path, and end up on the narrow path that leads to life.
There are not two ways to enter life, only one. Jesus said "I am the way and the Truth and the Life"

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[The narrow gate]

We cannot have Love without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Love (God IS Love)

We cannot have Salvation without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Salvation
We cannot have The Way without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Way
We cannot have The Truth without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Truth
We cannot have The Life without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Life
We cannot have True Light without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without True Light

We cannot have Victory without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Victory
We cannot have Living Faith without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Living Faith

Christianity is not based on the things of Christ, but on the person of Christ.

I think what confuses many is the; I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

If I can share my understanding of this.
God is the "I AM" ...He is not 'I was' or 'I will be', but "I AM"

All things and everything before God are 'NOW'. He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He sees the end from the beginning. God is not in time and space, but time and space is in God.

From God's view point, we are saved.
From our view point, and in our daily experiences, we are being saved.
The day will come when we will see Him face to face, and we will be saved.

In Heaven, Jesus has the Victory, but in our experience we are seeing that victory unfold.
Satan has been defeated, but we are seeing his defeat being unfolded, and there is nothing he can do to change what God has done in heaven.

Our Position is that we are saved, our experiences are that of being saved. We cannot undo what God has done. We will be saved.

His Will, is being done and will be done on earth, as it IS in Heaven.

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 25th 2007, 09:18 PM
Hi DSK! :hug:

Thanks for that!

I still believe that this is only about the gate we enter through.

Can we try it this way; If I enter the wide gate, then no matter how I walk on the wide path, it will lead to destruction. Even if I stand still, it will lead to destruction. I cannot fall off the wide path, and end up on the narrow path that leads to life.
There are not two ways to enter life, only one. Jesus said "I am the way and the Truth and the Life"

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[The narrow gate]

We cannot have Love without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Love (God IS Love)

We cannot have Salvation without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Salvation
We cannot have The Way without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Way
We cannot have The Truth without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Truth
We cannot have The Life without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without The Life
We cannot have True Light without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without True Light

We cannot have Victory without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Victory
We cannot have Living Faith without Christ, and we cannot have Christ without Living Faith

Christianity is not based on the things of Christ, but on the person of Christ.

I think what confuses many is the; I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

If I can share my understanding of this.
God is the "I AM" ...He is not 'I was' or 'I will be', but "I AM"

All things and everything before God are 'NOW'. He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He sees the end from the beginning. God is not in time and space, but time and space is in God.

From God's view point, we are saved.
From our view point, and in our daily experiences, we are being saved.
The day will come when we will see Him face to face, and we will be saved.

In Heaven, Jesus has the Victory, but in our experience we are seeing that victory unfold.
Satan has been defeated, but we are seeing his defeat being unfolded, and there is nothing he can do to change what God has done in heaven.

Our Position is that we are saved, our experiences are that of being saved. We cannot undo what God has done. We will be saved.

His Will, is being done and will be done on earth, as it IS in Heaven.

If you can't change paths then how do we get saved in the first place? Seeing how we are lost and on the wide path to begin with we would have to get off this path at some point. Right? Then you must be able to move from one path to the other.

DSK
Oct 25th 2007, 10:05 PM
I still believe that this is only about the gate we enter through.

Then why is a road mentioned in verse 14 if this is only about a gate?


Can we try it this way; If I enter the wide gate, then no matter how I walk on the wide path, it will lead to destruction. Even if I stand still, it will lead to destruction. I cannot fall off the wide path, and end up on the narrow path that leads to life.

In Mat 7:13-14 two roads are mentioned.
1. The wide road which leads to destruction. vs. 13
2. The narrow road which leads to life. vs. 14

Before we became saved we were all traveling on the wide road which leads to destruction. We changed directions and began traveling down a different road than what we were previously traveling on. Others stay on the wide road and travel that route to the end and to destruction. They never change course. Those of us who have had a change of course are currently on the narrow road. But once again we have to travel that road to the end where life is found. Scripture repeatly speaks of the believers walk. We are to continue walking in the right direction one step at a time until we arrive at our heavenly home. We are not home yet.


I think what confuses many is the; I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.


Yes it truly does confuse people. Nevertheless, we find in Scripture where salvation is mentioned in all three tenses. If Scripture speaks of salvation in past, present, and future tenses, then why should we disagree with what is written in Scripture.

Below is a link to a reply I previously posted in this thread which gives a few Scripture references to salvation in it's various tenses;
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1416843&postcount=56

.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 25th 2007, 11:14 PM
Below is a link to a reply I previously posted in this thread which gives a few Scripture references to salvation in it's various tenses;
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1416843&postcount=56

.

Just a quick reply as it is bedtime now in the UK!

I have read your link and I fully agree with it.

Sin has a penalty
Sin has a Power
Sin has a Presence

Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spoke to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2007, 01:33 AM
Then why is a road mentioned in verse 14 if this is only about a gate?



In Mat 7:13-14 two roads are mentioned.
1. The wide road which leads to destruction. vs. 13
2. The narrow road which leads to life. vs. 14

Before we became saved we were all traveling on the wide road which leads to destruction. We changed directions and began traveling down a different road than what we were previously traveling on. Others stay on the wide road and travel that route to the end and to destruction. They never change course. Those of us who have had a change of course are currently on the narrow road. But once again we have to travel that road to the end where life is found. Scripture repeatly speaks of the believers walk. We are to continue walking in the right direction one step at a time until we arrive at our heavenly home. We are not home yet.


So this is what Jesus said:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And this is what you say He meant:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate [and keep on the narrow way]: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life [or possible destruction], and few there be that find it. [Them]


John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall [Might] be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [if he manages to keep on the narrow way]



Yes it truly does confuse people. Nevertheless, we find in Scripture where salvation is mentioned in all three tenses. If Scripture speaks of salvation in past, present, and future tenses, then why should we disagree with what is written in Scripture.

Below is a link to a reply I previously posted in this thread which gives a few Scripture references to salvation in it's various tenses;
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1416843&postcount=56

.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2007, 01:41 AM
If you can't change paths then how do we get saved in the first place? Seeing how we are lost and on the wide path to begin with we would have to get off this path at some point. Right? Then you must be able to move from one path to the other.

We enter the strait gate!

Also, to enter in at the wide gate, is a choice.
"and many are they that enter in thereby."

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 29th 2007, 02:15 AM
We enter the strait gate!

Also, to enter in at the wide gate, is a choice.
"and many are they that enter in thereby."

EVERYONE is on one of these paths...everyone.

Before you were saved which path were you on?

What path are you on now?

If you answered the way you should then somewhere along the line you changed paths. So it is possible to change paths.

2 Peter 2:20
Oct 29th 2007, 02:34 AM
So this is what Jesus said:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And this is what you say He meant:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate [and keep on the narrow way]: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life [or possible destruction], and few there be that find it. [Them]


John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall [Might] be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [if he manages to keep on the narrow way]

I see what you are saying with the John 10 scripture. Notice that is also says that you can go in and out. Also, notice that it doesn't say he shall go in and stay in.

Look at this...

1 Peter 1
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls

Peter tells us that the salvation of our souls is the END of our faith. If salvation was at the beginning as you imply then there would be no need for FAITH or HOPE because you have received the end of your faith at the beginning.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2007, 02:37 PM
EVERYONE is on one of these paths...everyone.


Really?
So the unborn foetus, to the child yet still incapable of making any sort of choices, and those with any sort of severe intellectual disability. What path are they on?



Before you were saved which path were you on?


You tell me?
At the age of 10 or 11, I was filled with the Love of God
I recon from God's view, I was on this path from before the earths foundations were laid, but there came a day when I knew it.



What path are you on now?


The one that leads to life!



If you answered the way you should then somewhere along the line you changed paths. So it is possible to change paths.

Did I?

Are you saying that someone can change paths, without going through the gate?
Like climbing over the fence?
or
Do you say we now have to walk the narrow path, that leads to the Strait Gate of life?