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GothicAngel
Oct 15th 2007, 02:47 AM
On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?

enarchay
Oct 15th 2007, 06:49 AM
On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

I don't believe people can be fully saved until resurrection.

This is pulled from my past post:

1) We are saved (past tense) from our sins and spiritual death (Luk 1:79, cf. 15:24; Rom 7:6; cf. Gal 1:4; 2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:5; cf. 1Jn 1:9).

2) We will be (future tense) saved from physical death and wrath (i.e. 1Co 15:54; Rom 5:9).

3) We are pressing on (present tense) and working out (present tense) our salvation with fear and trembling, with the "prize" in mind (Php 2:13, 3:14).


My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?

Depends on how you define "damned." Someone asked a question like this on another forum. He explained:

In particular, what caught my attention was the re-interpretation of hell they both presented—hell is seen as here on earth, as something that people suffer through in everyday life. Hell is bodily and physical. Hell is not necessarily or only a metaphysical condition beyond time and place.
I responded:

From a Biblical perspective, I find this hell-on-Earth doctrine completely lacking. The same thing happens with most eternal torment advocates: they display ignorance to the Biblical concepts of sheol/hades and geenna (often translated hell), speaking about “hell” from a culturally diffused perspective. After all, the whole point of post-resurrection judgment is that too many people get away with horrible things on Earth and go unpunished.

“16[The] ungodly by their words and deeds summoned death; considering him a friend, they pined away and made a covenant with him, because they are fit to belong to his company. 1For they have reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves, ‘short and sorrowful is our life, and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end, and no one has been known to return from Hades. 2For we were born by mere chance, and hereafter we shall be as though for the breath in our nostrils is smoke, and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts; 3when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes, and the spirit will dissolve like empty air. … 6Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist, and make use of the creation to the full as in youth. 7Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes, and let no flower of spring pass us by. … 12Let us oppress the righteous poor man; let us not spare the widow or regard the gray hairs of the age. … 16We are considered by him [the righteous] as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. 17Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God’s child, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19Let us test him with insult and torture, so that we my find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected” (Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 1, 2).
Many people do not live in a hell-on-Earth, but a paradise; many of the righteous, in contrast, suffers under the hands of the wicked in a purgatory. The author of the Wisdom of Solomon’s solution is judgment:

“20[The wicked] will come with dread when their sins are reckoned up, and their lawless deeds will convict them to their face. 1Then the righteous will stand with great confidence in the presence of those who have oppressed them and those who make light of their labors. 2When the unrighteous see them, they will be shaken with dreadful fear, and they will be amazed at the unexpected salvation of the righteous. 3They will speak to one another in repentance, and in anguish of spirit they will groan, and say, ‘These are persons we once held in derision and made a byword of reproach—fools that we were!’ (Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 4, 5).
I think the word “hell” needs to be wiped off the pulpit completely. However, I think the belief that Jesus will judge “the secrets of men” (Rom 2:16), “render to every man according to his deeds” (Rom 2:6), so that “he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting” (Gal 6:8) still has a place in Christianity. Hell-on-Earth won’t cut it; perhaps a doctrine of eternal torment, neither. Though I believe judgment still has a place in Christianity, this does not mean, however, we should run around telling people to become Christians or else they will burn, as others have done in the past. Judgment is more of an assurance to the righteous than a warning to the wicked, if you ask me.

Personally, I say if we must, we should simply talk about judgment; let each individual decide what that means. I like Wright’s description:

“The word ‘hell’ is a shorthand for several biblical themes which converge at the point where (i) God has promised to put the entire world right at last, showing up evil as what it is, the corruption and destruction of what is good, and the distortion of the good humanness which God made and loves, and therefore judging it so that it no longer has the power to infect his good creation; (ii) God will finally say to those who have persisted in their deliberate collusion with the powers of corruption, destruction and dehumanization (i.e. ‘sin’) that there can be no place for them in the glorious new world that he is making, so that (iii) God’s new world will not have in it ‘a concentration camp in the midst of a beautiful landscape’, as some earlier visions of ‘hell’ have supposed, but rather the celebration (1 Corinthians 20.28) that ‘God will be all in all’” (“Neither is The Final Destination”).
Right now, though, I think a doctrine of annihilation is the best interpretation: those who have no place in New Creation will simply be destroyed. But maybe we need to reevaluate who exactly has a place in New Creation and who doesn’t. I will touch on these issues in my post in the future. I plan to examine the Scriptures about judgment and the doctrines of eternal torment, universal salvation, and annihilation, if I get the time. These subjects have always interested me.

Theophilus
Oct 15th 2007, 02:10 PM
Just for your consideration, John 3:16-18:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

So, not "damned," per se...but certainly on the road to it. If you are condemned, and there is no intervention, you will pay your due, as it were.

Sold Out
Oct 15th 2007, 03:46 PM
On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?


There are three parts to salvation, but all 3 are fully realized at the moment of salvation:

1) Justification -the moment one trusts Christ to forgive them of all sin
2) Sanctification - the growth period of a Christian where he/she strives to be Christlike and become mature
3) Glorification - when we receive our glorified bodies at the Judgment Seat of Christ

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 04:39 PM
On these boards, I see alot of people saying that they are saved, or that Christians are saved, etc. I dont believe that a person can be saved until death; I find it a very interesting belief.

My question is, are non Christians actively damned then? If a person can be "saved" while still on earth, cant they also be damned?
Hi-

It is true that we can never know for sure who is saved and who is not.

Matt.13 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4433461)

[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Now no one is damned until they actually physically die.

Heb.9 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5296837)

[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Anwone can come to salvation before death at any time.....after death it is to late. Why? Becuase they never beleived on Jesus Christ.

Now, I do beleive a true child of God can know that they are saved becuase God gives them His promise.:)

2Cor.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5127503)

[22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.Eph.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5182041)

[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Eph.4 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5190350)

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.So, God children are sealed....we do have a promise of salvation when we come to faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord. God can and does confirm this in a beleivers heart. But, others can not be certain who is redeemed until they reach heaven.

God Bless

Pleroo
Oct 15th 2007, 06:54 PM
Just for your consideration, John 3:16-18:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

So, not "damned," per se...but certainly on the road to it. If you are condemned, and there is no intervention, you will pay your due, as it were.

Hello, friend. Not to be nitpicky, but the word "damned" isn't in the Bible. It is a word the KJV has used in place of condemnation in certain passages. So, to be consistent, this passage would read, "...whoever does not believe stands damned already..."

I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 07:04 PM
I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?[/quote]
Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

Praise God:pp

Pleroo
Oct 15th 2007, 08:41 PM
Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

Praise God:pp


Hi Alaina. I agree that Jesus is the Way. :) However, I see that the condmenation we are born into is sin and death. We all sin, and we all die. Jesus is the Way into righteousness and life.

mikebr
Oct 15th 2007, 08:55 PM
In Adam all die......................

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 08:58 PM
I don't believe we are "on our way to damnation". In our unbelief we were already "damned" (as the opening post said and as this passage you've brought to bear says very clearly), but Jesus came to take away the sin of the world. Once our eyes are open to that truth, we will no longer live under the condemnation which we wallow in in our unbelief, and we will also begin to be delivered from sin itself. What do you think?
Excellent point- we are all born into damnation- we all are going to hell...but Jesus is our way out.

Praise God:pp

I would disagree that we are "born into damnation." That would mean all infants who die will be in hell. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3).

spm62
Oct 15th 2007, 09:04 PM
In Adam all die......................

in Christ all have life.....:pp

mikebr
Oct 15th 2007, 09:05 PM
in Christ all have life.....:pp

Yes we do!:pp:pp

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 09:20 PM
I would disagree that we are "born into damnation." That would mean all infants who die will be in hell. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3).
EEEKKKK- I said that wrong.....we are born with a sin nature.

If an infant deies before a certain age- we assume that baby goes to heaven...but at some point we all need to make a consious chose to choose salvation through Christ.

Sometimes...typing your thoughts is hard:B

DSK
Oct 15th 2007, 09:26 PM
The OP looks like another hit and run post

spm62
Oct 15th 2007, 09:26 PM
EEEKKKK- I said that wrong.....we are born with a sin nature.

If an infant deies before a certain age- we assume that baby goes to heaven...but at some point we all need to make a consious chose to choose salvation through Christ.

Sometimes...typing your thoughts is hard:B


I`v learned not to assume anything..:kiss:

Pleroo
Oct 15th 2007, 09:51 PM
I would disagree that we are "born into damnation." That would mean all infants who die will be in hell. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:3).

Hi Matt14. I don't really see a problem with saying that we are all born into damnation [condemnation] -- The wages of sin is death [Romans 6:23] not "hell" as it is commonly defined by many Christians. (The word "hades" which we derive the word "hell" from denotes the grave, not a place of eternal torment.) We are born into this judgment for we are all in the process of dying physically the moment we are conceived, and spiritually we do not have life until God brings us to faith in Christ.

The Scripture says that if one does not have faith in Christ they are condemned already. Are you saying that all infants have faith? Or something else?

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 10:25 PM
EEEKKKK- I said that wrong.....we are born with a sin nature.

If an infant deies before a certain age- we assume that baby goes to heaven...but at some point we all need to make a consious chose to choose salvation through Christ.

Sometimes...typing your thoughts is hard:B
Hey, don't worry about it. Just wanted to clarify. Sometimes people read what we write, and someone asks a questions or points something out, and only then do we realize that what we wrote is not what we think! Happens all the times. God bless you!

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 10:31 PM
Hi Matt14. I don't really see a problem with saying that we are all born into damnation [condemnation] -- The wages of sin is death [Romans 6:23] not "hell" as it is commonly defined by many Christians. (The word "hades" which we derive the word "hell" from denotes the grave, not a place of eternal torment.) We are born into this judgment for we are all in the process of dying physically the moment we are conceived, and spiritually we do not have life until God brings us to faith in Christ.

The Scripture says that if one does not have faith in Christ they are condemned already. Are you saying that all infants have faith? Or something else?

Hi Pleroo! Good to see you. :)

You know that our differences in understanding the Bible are well documented, so I won't go into those. But, according to the Bible:

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is a result of hearing the word of God. That's where it comes from. Faith isn't something one develops miraculously. It is a result of being taught about the Savior.

Also:

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

No child bears guilt for another's sins. Not even Adams. They may bear the results, such as eventual physical death. Only sinners will spiritual die. When a child reaches the age of knowing right from wrong (such as in Isa. 7:16), then sin can be committed.

That is why infants are not doomed to hell.

Pleroo
Oct 16th 2007, 12:54 AM
Hi Pleroo! Good to see you. :)

You know that our differences in understanding the Bible are well documented, so I won't go into those. But, according to the Bible:

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is a result of hearing the word of God. That's where it comes from. Faith isn't something one develops miraculously. It is a result of being taught about the Savior.

Also:

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

No child bears guilt for another's sins. Not even Adams. They may bear the results, such as eventual physical death. Only sinners will spiritual die. When a child reaches the age of knowing right from wrong (such as in Isa. 7:16), then sin can be committed.

That is why infants are not doomed to hell.

Hi Matt14. Actually, since our discussions have always revolved around infant baptism it's nice to come at it from a little bit different angle, just to get a better feel of what you believe. Thanks for laying out your understanding for me. :)

Of course, I do believe that faith is a miracle, something wrought supernaturally by God, a gift. That He uses the Word to work that miracle, I won't argue at all. I don't want to stray too far off the path of the o.p. so I won't pursue this line of thought. It's a fundamental difference in our beliefs though, and explains why we won't find agreement on issues that hinge on it.

As far as people not being born into a condemnation from the sin of Adam, what of the Romans 5 passage which says,

"14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."

I cannot reconcile what you are saying with this teaching.

spm62
Oct 16th 2007, 01:18 AM
[. Only sinners will spiritual die. [PHP]When a child reaches the age of knowing right from wrong (such as in Isa. 7:16), then sin can be committed

That is why infants are not doomed to hell.[/quote


What is the age of accountability?

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 06:38 PM
[. Only sinners will spiritual die. [PHP]When a child reaches the age of knowing right from wrong (such as in Isa. 7:16), then sin can be committed

That is why infants are not doomed to hell.[/quote


What is the age of accountability?

When a child knows the difference between good and evil. There is a time when they do not know.

Isa 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Only the child knows when they understand God's commands, and good and evil. This is another thing a man cannot judge.

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 06:39 PM
Hi Matt14. Actually, since our discussions have always revolved around infant baptism it's nice to come at it from a little bit different angle, just to get a better feel of what you believe. Thanks for laying out your understanding for me. :)

Of course, I do believe that faith is a miracle, something wrought supernaturally by God, a gift. That He uses the Word to work that miracle, I won't argue at all. I don't want to stray too far off the path of the o.p. so I won't pursue this line of thought. It's a fundamental difference in our beliefs though, and explains why we won't find agreement on issues that hinge on it.

As far as people not being born into a condemnation from the sin of Adam, what of the Romans 5 passage which says,

"14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."

I cannot reconcile what you are saying with this teaching.

Pleroo, I'm just cruising through. I will respond as soon as I get time. I'm bogged down with work today!

God bless

Pleroo
Oct 17th 2007, 11:47 PM
Pleroo, I'm just cruising through. I will respond as soon as I get time. I'm bogged down with work today!

God bless

No problem. I'm in and out of here myself. Respond if and when you have the time. :)

spm62
Oct 18th 2007, 01:10 AM
When a child knows the difference between good and evil. There is a time when they do not know.

Isa 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Only the child knows when they understand God's commands, and good and evil. This is another thing a man cannot judge.


So for instance,if the age of accountability for a child is..let`s say 9yrs old..and that child dies at 10 yrs old. He will be eternally damned to torment in hellfire because that one year he was accountable he did not accept Christ as his Savior? :hmm: :o

Sold Out
Oct 18th 2007, 01:23 PM
What about Romans 7:9?

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Matt14
Oct 18th 2007, 05:32 PM
So for instance,if the age of accountability for a child is..let`s say 9yrs old..and that child dies at 10 yrs old. He will be eternally damned to torment in hellfire because that one year he was accountable he did not accept Christ as his Savior? :hmm: :o

Or, what if it was age 21, and that young man died at 22?

Or, what if it was age 18, and that young person died at 19?

If a person is accountable and has sinned, God's word holds true.

No man can say WHEN a child becomes accountable. When they understand the nature of sin and God's love and sacrifice for them, and feel guilty of sin, it is likely that they are accountable. If they are too young to understand the implications of Jesus' sacrifice, they are probably too young.

God bless!