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sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 07:20 PM
Hi. I have an aunt who recently died while in her second marriage. She was 38 and remarried after divorce. Some people say to me she was an adulterer and in Hell right now. Are they correct?

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 07:24 PM
Hello Sally!

Why do they say that?

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 07:25 PM
Hello Sally!

Why do they say that?

Why do I say what?

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 07:27 PM
Why do they say she is in hell? Why do they say she was an adulterer?

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 07:29 PM
Why do they say she is in hell? Why do they say she was an adulterer?
They say it was because she died while in an adulterous remarriage.

Steve M
Oct 15th 2007, 07:34 PM
Hi. I have an aunt who recently died while in her second marriage. She was 38 and remarried after divorce. Some people say to me she was an adulterer and in Hell right now. Are they correct?
The question is two-fold, then.

A) was her marriage sinful.

B) could her sin be forgiven her?

I don't know enough of any details to answer A...

About B, I can only say that God can forgive any sin. Whether He will or not is between Him and your Aunt. I can't tell you whether she had sins to repent of or whether she repented of them, I can't tell you what was in her heart, and I can't tell you what, if anything, God wanted from her.

I can only tell you that God is just and loving, and nobody goes to hell who doesn't deserve it.

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 07:35 PM
Well, Jesus says there is one cause for divorce that God allows:

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

While I do not think we should say things like, "Your aunt is in hell," we can look at scripture and see what He says is sinful.

A divorce that comes about because a husband or wife had sexual relations outside the marriage, is a divorce that God allows.

always
Oct 15th 2007, 07:35 PM
Hi. I have an aunt who recently died while in her second marriage. She was 38 and remarried after divorce. Some people say to me she was an adulterer and in Hell right now. Are they correct?


They say that because they have a lack of understanding. In the scriptures it teaches

But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife...

likewise

but God is a God, that will recieve a sinners repentance in all things, those who say that about your aunt do not know her heart, and do not have a heaven or hell to put her in,
pray for them

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 07:38 PM
She was divorced for "irreconciable differences".

ProjectPeter
Oct 15th 2007, 07:39 PM
No one in here could even hazard a guess.

Steve M
Oct 15th 2007, 07:40 PM
She was divorced for "irreconciable differences".
I'll go way out on a limb here and say that sounds unBiblical to me, and that it was probably a sinful divorce situation (even though it's entirely premature and possibly slanderous of me to say so--we'll call it a worst case scenario).

What I said before still stands. A person can repent from sin, and a person can make things right with God. Only two people can answer the question of whether she did or not; your aunt, whereever she may be, and God. And as ProjectPeter says; nobody here can get the answer from them.

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 07:51 PM
She was divorced for "irreconciable differences".
In some states, even if a divorce is due to sexual unfaithfulness, all they can legally put on the divorce certification is "irreconcilable differences."

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 07:54 PM
It wasn't for unfaithfulness that I do know.

always
Oct 15th 2007, 07:54 PM
In some states, even if a divorce is due to sexual unfaithfulness, all they can legally put on the divorce certification is "irreconcilable differences."


well God knows!

spm62
Oct 15th 2007, 08:14 PM
No one is in hell right now. They haven`t been judged yet. Jesus also said if you`ve even looked at someone with lust in your heart than you have committed adultery. So everyone has probably committed adultery at some point in their lives.

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 08:31 PM
well God knows!
Yes, and He's the One that counts.

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 08:35 PM
No one is in hell right now. They haven`t been judged yet.

No, but we knew what she meant. :)

Those who are awaiting judgment are either in Abraham's bosom, or in torment (Luke 16:23).


Jesus also said if you`ve even looked at someone with lust in your heart than you have committed adultery. So everyone has probably committed adultery at some point in their lives.

But "adultery" is not a reason for divorce. Fornication is a reason for divorce (Matt. 19:9).

spm62
Oct 15th 2007, 09:12 PM
No, but we knew what she meant. :)

I didn`t :(

Those who are awaiting judgment are either in Abraham's bosom, or in torment (Luke 16:23).

That`s a parable representing the Jewish nation and the Gentile nations



But "adultery" is not a reason for divorce. Fornication is a reason for divorce (Matt. 19:9).

Quite the contrary..only a married person can commit adultery..there is no reason to get a divorce if you are not married. :hmm:

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 09:17 PM
Was this lady saved before she re-married?

I was married at a very young age. i was not a Christian. I later re-married and was saved a few years after that marriage.

I would not divorce again- the sins I committed before salvation have been forgiven, just as all my sins after salvation are forgiven too- but we need to repent of our known sins.

Alaina

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 09:31 PM
Was this lady saved before she re-married?

I was married at a very young age. i was not a Christian. I later re-married and was saved a few years after that marriage.

I would not divorce again- the sins I committed before salvation have been forgiven, just as all my sins after salvation are forgiven too- but we need to repent of our known sins.

Alaina

Yes she was saved before her remarriage.

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 09:36 PM
That is a really hard question?

Did she repent ever of that divorce and ask God to forgive her? Was she proud of it or remorseful?

When she divorced was she counselled by a solid biblical teacher as to what the bible speaks of?

I think it would depend on her heart a and knowledge at the time she divorced and then before her death.

We all sin, even after salvation...I think you need to look a persons heart and relationship with the Lord.

God Bless:)
Alaina

sallyhunter1
Oct 15th 2007, 09:42 PM
That is a really hard question?

Did she repent ever of that divorce and ask God to forgive her? Was she proud of it or remorseful?

When she divorced was she counselled by a solid biblical teacher as to what the bible speaks of?

I think it would depend on her heart a and knowledge at the time she divorced and then before her death.

We all sin, even after salvation...I think you need to look a persons heart and relationship with the Lord.

God Bless:)
Alaina

She never acted sorry about it. She seemed almost pleased by her second husband.

Matt14
Oct 15th 2007, 10:21 PM
Quite the contrary..only a married person can commit adultery..there is no reason to get a divorce if you are not married. :hmm:

Jesus says that the type of adultery that is fornication, the actual sexual act, is the only cause for divorce. He says this in Matt. 19:9. There is no such thing as "mental adultery" that is an acceptable cause for divorce. Jesus says divorce is acceptable only in the case of fornication of a married person with a person he or she is not married to.

AlainaJ
Oct 15th 2007, 10:33 PM
She never acted sorry about it. She seemed almost pleased by her second husband.
If she showed no remorse and never repented- I am not God- you can only go by the scriptures provided-

all authority comes from the Word of God. We can't say God really didn't mean what he says. All you can do is take all the verses that apply to her situation, read over them and pray over them.

God Bless:)

spm62
Oct 16th 2007, 02:28 AM
Jesus says that the type of adultery that is fornication, the actual sexual act, is the only cause for divorce. He says this in Matt. 19:9. There is no such thing as "mental adultery" that is an acceptable cause for divorce. Jesus says divorce is acceptable only in the case of fornication of a married person with a person he or she is not married to.

I guess it`s a case of word semantics. By definition fornication is the act with unmarried persons and adultery is the act with a married person. Jesus said divorce was allowable for sexual immorality..which could mean several things. The op was asking if the person was in hell because she was divorced and remarried,possibly living in an adultress relationship. The pharisees were ready to stone the woman found in adultery. They said the law of Moses says to stone her. Jesus said,let he who is without sin throw the first stone. When all knew they were guilty and left,he told the woman he didn`t accuse her either,go and sin no more. The point is, some christians get so hung up on certain sins and Jesus basically showed time after time that we all sin. Just when a person is ready to throw stones at someone else because of a sin that perhaps they do not struggle with, always be aware that you too (not you personally) have sin in your life. :kiss:

hdt
Oct 16th 2007, 02:29 AM
She never acted sorry about it. She seemed almost pleased by her second husband.

LOL can I say I'm confused! I think I will!

I'm not sure all people are going to act 'sorry' for a divorce to the world. I mean some people keep certain things to themselves! As far as being pleased with a husband.........aren't you suppose to be?:hmm:

Sold Out
Oct 16th 2007, 12:51 PM
They say it was because she died while in an adulterous remarriage.

Oh my soul....

Even if she WAS in an adulterous marriage, and she was a saved lady, she is in heaven. Jesus died for ALL of our sins (past, present, future) and that sin was already paid for if she trusted Christ to save her at some point in her life.

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 03:27 PM
I guess it`s a case of word semantics. By definition fornication is the act with unmarried persons and adultery is the act with a married person. Jesus said divorce was allowable for sexual immorality..which could mean several things. The op was asking if the person was in hell because she was divorced and remarried,possibly living in an adultress relationship. The pharisees were ready to stone the woman found in adultery. They said the law of Moses says to stone her. Jesus said,let he who is without sin throw the first stone. When all knew they were guilty and left,he told the woman he didn`t accuse her either,go and sin no more. The point is, some christians get so hung up on certain sins and Jesus basically showed time after time that we all sin. Just when a person is ready to throw stones at someone else because of a sin that perhaps they do not struggle with, always be aware that you too (not you personally) have sin in your life. :kiss:

The point I was making is that when Jesus says one commits "adultery in his heart" by lusting after a woman, that type of adultery is not what He is talking about in Matthew 19:9. In that passage, He is talking about the sexual act of physicaly breaking the marriage covenant.

If "mental adultery," or lusting after a woman in one's heart is a cause for divorce, I dare say there would have been no need for Matt. 19:9 to be in the Bible. Most, if not all, have committed such a sin in their lifetimes. It is sinful to look after a woman to lust after her, but it is not a sin that justifies divorce. Only sexual activity by a married person with a person to whom he or she is not married is a sin that justifies divorce. There is no other cause for divorce given in scripture. that God accepts.

And yes, I personally have sin in my life. If I said I didn't, I would be a liar (1 John 1:10).

Thanks, and God bless!

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 03:30 PM
Oh my soul....

Even if she WAS in an adulterous marriage, and she was a saved lady, she is in heaven. Jesus died for ALL of our sins (past, present, future) and that sin was already paid for if she trusted Christ to save her at some point in her life.



That's great! I've got some sins I've been thinking about, I reckon I can go out and do them now!



We cannot tell other people whom we do not know whether they will be in heaven or hell. That's not a judgment we can make.

ProjectPeter
Oct 16th 2007, 03:42 PM
That's great! I've got some sins I've been thinking about, I reckon I can go out and do them now!



We cannot tell other people whom we do not know whether they will be in heaven or hell. That's not a judgment we can make.
Yeah... the old "past, present and future" thing! That ought to be a thread all its own I figure.

jeffreys
Oct 16th 2007, 03:46 PM
Quite the contrary..only a married person can commit adultery..there is no reason to get a divorce if you are not married. :hmm:

I know this is a side-issue, but I don't agree completely with this assertion.

Adultery is actually sexual intimacy with anybody who is not your spouse. Therefore, you can commit adultery with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

Just a thought...

AlainaJ
Oct 16th 2007, 04:48 PM
LOL can I say I'm confused! I think I will!

I'm not sure all people are going to act 'sorry' for a divorce to the world. I mean some people keep certain things to themselves! As far as being pleased with a husband.........aren't you suppose to be?:hmm:
I think by sorry- we are speaking of biblical repentance.

Often times people including myself have used my testimony in many ways...including repentance.

After I was saved I did things, that no one every told me I should not be doing. When the Holy Spirit convicted me of each one. I repented and would not do those things again. My mind changed about those activites...a changed mind to me is true repentance. But, I still can not change the fact I committed those sins.

Alaina:)

Whispering Grace
Oct 16th 2007, 04:57 PM
Oh my soul....

Even if she WAS in an adulterous marriage, and she was a saved lady, she is in heaven. Jesus died for ALL of our sins (past, present, future) and that sin was already paid for if she trusted Christ to save her at some point in her life.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

AlainaJ
Oct 16th 2007, 05:09 PM
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Is Jesus speaking of the saved or the unsaved. For we are all those things before salvation.

So, if you are saved and then becuase you steal something for some stupid reason- are you damned? What if you lie to someone after you are saved? Are you going to heaven?

Gal.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5169622)

[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.Eph.2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5185091)

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Is this not before salvation?
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)1Tim.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5243407)

[9] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.1John.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5357554)

[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1John.2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5358956)

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[12] I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.To me it would sound like we all sin, but we are to repent of our sins and true Christians will have great remorse over thier sins- I guess it comes down to your view of eternal security.
God Bless:)

ProjectPeter
Oct 16th 2007, 05:16 PM
Is Jesus speaking of the saved or the unsaved. For we are all those things before salvation.

So, if you are saved and then becuase you steal something for some stupid reason- are you damned? What if you lie to someone after you are saved? Are you going to heaven?

Gal.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5169622)

[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.Eph.2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5185091)

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Is this not before salvation?
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)1Tim.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5243407)

[9] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[15] This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.1John.1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5357554)

[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1John.2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5358956)

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[12] I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.To me it would sound like we all sin, but we are to repent of our sins and true Christians will have great remorse over thier sins- I guess it comes down to your view of eternal security.
God Bless:)
If a person dies in that sin... what are the wages of sin?

sallyhunter1
Oct 16th 2007, 05:16 PM
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

So Whispering Grace you don't think she is in Heaven?

ProjectPeter
Oct 16th 2007, 05:21 PM
So don't think she is in Heaven?
Like has been said sally... none of us can say one way or the other with surety. God is just. That is enough and what we can rest in. Divorce is forgivable. So is adultery. :)

Sold Out
Oct 16th 2007, 05:25 PM
That's great! I've got some sins I've been thinking about, I reckon I can go out and do them now!



We cannot tell other people whom we do not know whether they will be in heaven or hell. That's not a judgment we can make.

Hence the word 'IF'....I didn't say she was or wasn't saved.

Didn't really appreciate the sarcasm, seeing as it's not relevant to the topic.

sallyhunter1
Oct 16th 2007, 06:46 PM
Like has been said sally... none of us can say one way or the other with surety. God is just. That is enough and what we can rest in. Divorce is forgivable. So is adultery. :)

I heard that to get forgiveness for remarriage you need to divorce the man you are currently married to. She didn't do that so some people say she is in Hell.

Sold Out
Oct 16th 2007, 07:02 PM
I heard that to get forgiveness for remarriage you need to divorce the man you are currently married to. She didn't do that so some people say she is in Hell.

You have gotten a lot of varied answers here, so I would suggest you do your own independent study of the scriptures on this topic.

Whispering Grace
Oct 16th 2007, 07:34 PM
So Whispering Grace you don't think she is in Heaven?

As others have said, only God and your aunt know that.

Whispering Grace
Oct 16th 2007, 07:39 PM
I heard that to get forgiveness for remarriage you need to divorce the man you are currently married to. She didn't do that so some people say she is in Hell.

There is a precedent in the Bible for separating from marriages God is not pleased with to be obedient to Him.

Now therefore, let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and those who have been born to them, according to the advice of my master and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law. Ezra 10:3

Now therefore, make confession to the LORD God of your fathers, and do His will; separate yourselves from the peoples of the land, and from the pagan wives.” Ezra 10:11

Theophilus
Oct 16th 2007, 08:11 PM
There is a precedent in the Bible for separating from marriages God is not pleased with to be obedient to Him.

Now therefore, let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and those who have been born to them, according to the advice of my master and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law. Ezra 10:3

Now therefore, make confession to the LORD God of your fathers, and do His will; separate yourselves from the peoples of the land, and from the pagan wives.” Ezra 10:11

Well, yeah...but I doubt Sally's aunt is a Jewish man in the Old Testament, under direction of a prophet or priest to put away her Gentile husband...so that's probably not a precedent for Sally's aunt, or anyone else we know. ;)

I guess my question, Sally, is why is this an issue for you? Do you feel a need to defend your aunt to others?

Frankly, I wouldn't bother. People who are so harsh as to say she's in hell are certainly no people I'd care to associate with. If they had any compassion at all, and truly believe she's in hell, their hearts should be breaking for a soul lost for eternity...and they should be seeking to comfort you.

It's been stated 3 times now, and I'll state it a 4th...no one knows, and no one on here, without knowing the situation, can even hazard a decent guess. She is where she is, and there's nothing to be gained from stressing over it. Take comfort in the fact that, as has been mentioned, God is a just and loving God, and it's only His criteria that has to be satisfied...not judgmental men and women who can only know their own selves, and not any other.

If she was a believer, she's with Him right now. Dwell on the fruit she showed as a Christian. What do you think? Would you say she evidenced the fruit of the Spirit? Was the joy of the Lord evident in her life? If you can answer yes to these questions, take comfort that she is most likely with God right now. Dwell on the positive...and let what good she did and the joy she brought to you and others be her legacy.

Whispering Grace
Oct 16th 2007, 09:16 PM
Well, yeah...but I doubt Sally's aunt is a Jewish man in the Old Testament, under direction of a prophet or priest to put away her Gentile husband...so that's probably not a precedent for Sally's aunt, or anyone else we know. ;)

The issue is repentance. The Scripture is clear that the men could not repent of sinful marriages and keep their wives at the same time. I don't know why it would be any different for us.

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 09:25 PM
The issue is repentance. The Scripture is clear that the men could not repent of sinful marriages and keep their wives at the same time. I don't know why it would be any different for us.

I agree. It's like robbing a bank, repenting, and keeping the money.

Semi-tortured
Oct 16th 2007, 09:51 PM
I agree. It's like robbing a bank, repenting, and keeping the money.


So I have to return it? My plans are foiled again. :P

Matt14
Oct 16th 2007, 10:35 PM
So I have to return it? My plans are foiled again. :P

Well, you could keep it. Free will, you know...

But you wouldn't want to, I don't think. :)

AlainaJ
Oct 17th 2007, 01:02 AM
If a person dies in that sin... what are the wages of sin?
The wages of sin are death.......

Rom.6 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5033276)


[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.i am not disputing that...my question is if a Christian does sin and we all do after we are saved.....are we not to repent of that sin and God will forgive us?

So, three questions:
1- if we sin after salavation are we still going to heaven?
2- if we repent of those sins are we still going to heaven?
3- Do we need to repent every time we sin?

God Bless

ProjectPeter
Oct 17th 2007, 01:06 AM
The wages of sin are death.......

Rom.6 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5033276)


[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.i am not disputing that...my question is if a Christian does sin and we all do after we are saved.....are we not to repent of that sin and God will forgive us?

So, three questions:
1- if we sin after salavation are we still going to heaven?
2- if we repent of those sins are we still going to heaven?
3- Do we need to repent every time we sin?

God Bless
Sure. If a person repents truly then I am right certain God is going to forgive them for it. :)

Saved7
Oct 17th 2007, 01:55 AM
That's great! I've got some sins I've been thinking about, I reckon I can go out and do them now!



We cannot tell other people whom we do not know whether they will be in heaven or hell. That's not a judgment we can make.


But what about the woman at the well? And what of the woman caught in adultery? He said "go and sin no more" to her, right? Well, what if she repented of this adulterous marriage, but now that she was married, she didn't want to sin again by divorcing and going back to her ex husband? Just how much sin was she supposed to commit in order to UNDO what she had done? I know I have sinned, quite deliberately on a number of occassions since I got saved. Sin is not an accident, therefore, am I now unsaved? I continue to repent, and I still manage to be weak enough to sin. Should I tell Jesus to go away from me, because I am a sinner, and I don't want my Saviour to save me?:hmm:
No, I believe we can repent and be forgiven; and still be in a circumstance that doesn't allow us to walk away from it. Should I condemn my daughter because she was born out of wed lock? Or should I stop being a mother because I had her out of wed lock? I wasn't a christian at the time, but I am now, does that mean I have to stop loving my daughter now that I know what I did was a sin?
Jesus is my Saviour, and He remains my Saviour, and will continue to be my Saviour all the way to heaven. Even if I sin again.
Just some food for thought.:saint:

Theophilus
Oct 17th 2007, 01:36 PM
The issue is repentance. The Scripture is clear that the men could not repent of sinful marriages and keep their wives at the same time. I don't know why it would be any different for us.
Fine...but what you originally posted was


There is a precedent in the Bible for separating from marriages God is not pleased with to be obedient to Him.

I wasn't keying in on the repentance issue...I was keying in on the above sentence, where it sounds as if you're using an occurence in the Old Testament as a precedent for separating from marriages in the here and now (and by separating, did you mean divorce or separation, or both?).

There are many things that happened in the Bible that a not normative for our time. I can't see this as an applicable precedent for those in the New Testament church. We have no idea why Sally's aunt got divorced, for one thing...other than irreconcilable differences. I would be willing to guarantee it wasn't because she was a Jew, and her husband a pagan Gentile...Nor is she under the authority of someone like Ezra, acting on God's behalf.

Plenty of things about divorce and separation...and repentance...in the New Testament...but I just don't see this as germaine to Sally's aunt...or anyone else in this day and age, as license for separation/divorce.

IMHO. :)

See where I'm comin' from now? Thanks for pointing out the repentance issue, though...I understand completely. I was so focused on the precedent issue, I missed what you meant about repentance entirely! :blushsad:

Toolman
Oct 17th 2007, 06:25 PM
I agree. It's like robbing a bank, repenting, and keeping the money.

Not quite.

Cause in this situation you would have to rob again (get another divorce) to be able to take back the first money.

Its not quite as clean and dry as returning stolen money. Especially if children have resulted from the 2nd marriage.

Whispering Grace
Oct 17th 2007, 06:28 PM
Not quite.

Cause in this situation you would have to rob again (get another divorce) to be able to take back the first money.

Its not quite as clean and dry as returning stolen money. Especially if children have resulted from the 2nd marriage.

So what do you make of the wives and children who were "put away" in Ezra? I don't see God making allowances for them to repent and then keep what they have repented of.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 17th 2007, 06:39 PM
I just made a new thread about divorce and remarriage...strangely enough.

I used to think the same way and i am not out to justify anything i've ever done, or may do. But i think this issue is being mishandled often by quite a few believers as this thread is proof of. (heck i myself mishandled it before)

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103383

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Toolman
Oct 17th 2007, 06:51 PM
So what do you make of the wives and children who were "put away" in Ezra? I don't see God making allowances for them to repent and then keep what they have repented of.

The first thing I note is that the Israelites were under a covenant of Law and not a covenant of Grace and just like I would not advice the stoning of those who don't keep the sabbath or the execution of the children for rebellion, I am careful not to randomly accept precedents that were under that covenant without careful and thought filled examination.

The second thing I note is that the sin was a racial sin. The Israelites, the Holy nation, were not to marry any other races, so that the race would be pure.
So, the motivation was not the same as in our modern cases. A pure race is irrelevant now.

The third thing I note is that, from what I can tell, God did not command or confirm that the Israelites were to divorce the foreigners. Can you show me in the text where He did.

Now, I'm not saying that so that the one who was divorced can keep his "sin" but in consideration of the wife and children he has by his current marriage and that to "turn them out" would, IMO, not be Christ-like towards them but would be another sin. Christians have instructions not to divorce. To do so twice does not make the first time right. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Better to have 2 wives than 2 divorces. Neither is perfect (IMO) but one is better than the other.

I'm not saying there is an easy answer. In fact that is exactly what I am saying, that its not as easy as taking back some stolen money. Which was my point :)

Semi-tortured
Oct 17th 2007, 07:20 PM
So here's a question. If I get married, then divorce for a reason not involving sexual immorality, then remarry am I sinning everytime I have sex with my new wife (therfore living in sin) or did I commit adultery the first time I had sex with her and then that formed a new bond with her and I become one flesh with my new wife? I could see how I would be sorry for divorce, but if I am living with a new wife and enjoying my life with her, how can I truly be sorry for the adultery I commited with her that would have resulted in us becoming one flesh?

By the same token, if I were a woman and my husband turned to alcohol and started beating me, I would have to leave him, but would I be required to live my life alone forever because of the sin of another?

Interesting conversation. I can see how remarriage can seem OK in our eyes, but according to the Bible it is pretty clear. The scary thought is if one gets remmarried and did not divorce due to sexual immorality, could they possibly be living in sin and then therefore damned to hell because they are not repenting? I find it hard to believe that someone in love with their spouse would actually feel sorry for the fact they married them. So is a remarried heart an unrepentant one? Scary when you consider how many people in the church have remarried.

Of course I could be misinterpreting it and remarriage itself is the single sin of adultery on that first night and when you ask for forgiveness and know what you did is wrong, God allows you to stay in the relationship you are now in. I guess the question could boil down to is repentance accomplished when you know something is wrong and you ask for forgiveness or when you you know something is wrong and wish you never did it and ask for forgiveness.

VerticalReality
Oct 17th 2007, 07:29 PM
So here's a question. If I get married, then divorce for a reason not involving sexual immorality, then remarry am I sinning everytime I have sex with my new wife (therfore living in sin) or did I commit adultery the first time I had sex with her and then that formed a new bond with her and I become one flesh with my new wife? I could see how I would be sorry for divorce, but if I am living with a new wife and enjoying my life with her, how can I truly be sorry for the adultery I commited with her that would have resulted in us becoming one flesh?

By the same token, if I were a woman and my husband turned to alcohol and started beating me, I would have to leave him, but would I be required to live my life alone forever because of the sin of another?

Interesting conversation. I can see how remarriage can seem OK in our eyes, but according to the Bible it is pretty clear. The scary thought is if one gets remmarried and did not divorce due to sexual immorality, could they possibly be living in sin and then therefore damned to hell because they are not repenting? I find it hard to believe that someone in love with their spouse would actually feel sorry for the fact they married them. So is a remarried heart an unrepentant one? Scary when you consider how many people in the church have remarried.

Of course I could be misinterpreting it and remarriage itself is the single sin of adultery on that first night and when you ask for forgiveness and know what you did is wrong, God allows you to stay in the relationship you are now in. I guess the question could boil down to is repentance accomplished when you know something is wrong and you ask for forgiveness or when you you know something is wrong and wish you never did it and ask for forgiveness.

My question here is would someone who is truly born again deliberately disobey God's Word, divorce his wife for something other than sexual immorality and go marry someone else knowing full well that he/she is committing adultery? I find that one hard to believe. I committed sexual immorality, as did my first wife, but we both were unsaved and didn't have the first care about whether or not we were doing something God wouldn't like. We were in darkness. However, now that I have been born again to the Spirit, there is no way in the world I would deliberately go against what the Word of God instructs of me. We can certainly be deceived into falling into sin, but one so blatant as this seems a little difficult for me to imagine. I could be wrong I guess.

VerticalReality
Oct 17th 2007, 07:35 PM
Of course I guess it could depend on your knowledge of what God expects as well.

Semi-tortured
Oct 17th 2007, 07:43 PM
My question here is would someone who is truly born again deliberately disobey God's Word, divorce his wife for something other than sexual immorality and go marry someone else knowing full well that he/she is committing adultery? I find that one hard to believe. I committed sexual immorality, as did my first wife, but we both were unsaved and didn't have the first care about whether or not we were doing something God wouldn't like. We were in darkness. However, now that I have been born again to the Spirit, there is no way in the world I would deliberately go against what the Word of God instructs of me. We can certainly be deceived into falling into sin, but one so blatant as this seems a little difficult for me to imagine. I could be wrong I guess.

Well, I do agree with you in part, but the deliberately going against God's Word thing is something we all do. For instance. When I tell a lie (which I fortunately am not prone to do often) I am deliberately going against God's Word. I know there is no way it's right under any circumstance but I do it. As a Christian, if we were to never go deliberately against God's Word, I think we'd all be in hell because every sin (lying, coveting, stealing, etc) is wrong and we know full well it's wrong. There have been times when I know the Holy Spirit is telling me not to do something and I can feel myself blcok him out and do it anyway. I beg for forgiveness afterwards cause I know I was wrong and an idiot. I think it's a matter of repentance which is where remarriage becomes tricky. How can I become truly sorry for something when I love the result (my new wife)? If I have sex with Jessica Alba and then go around bragging about it, am I sorry I did it? No. But I asked for forgiveness. Is that repentance?

And that's the question. God says to confess your sins. Does that mean we have to merely confess with our mouths that we intellectually understand that what we did in God's eyes is wrong, or do we have to feel it and be convicted of it in a way where we regret it. I believe it says God forgets our sins as soon as we repent, but what is repentance?

BadDog
Oct 18th 2007, 12:37 PM
Hi. I have an aunt who recently died while in her second marriage. She was 38 and remarried after divorce. Some people say to me she was an adulterer and in Hell right now. Are they correct?Good comment Steve (early on the thread).

As I see it, Sally, God covered ALL of her sin on the cross. A good question to ask yourself might be, "What makes 'adultary,' if your aunt was guilty of that, some sin which would not be covered, while, for example, Paul's murder was forgiven?"

BD

Whispering Grace
Oct 18th 2007, 01:28 PM
Good comment Steve (early on the thread).

As I see it, Sally, God covered ALL of her sin on the cross. A good question to ask yourself might be, "What makes 'adultary,' if your aunt was guilty of that, some sin which would not be covered, while, for example, Paul's murder was forgiven?"

BD

Paul repented of his sin, did he not? He didn't keep murdering until he died.

VerticalReality
Oct 18th 2007, 01:43 PM
Paul repented of his sin, did he not? He didn't keep murdering until he died.

Sally may have repented of her adultery, however, so wouldn't that mean she is forgiven?

I guess where some may bring about debate here is this theory that someone can live in a "state" of adultery. I don't believe Scripture supports such a notion, but many like to argue it.

9Marksfan
Oct 18th 2007, 04:02 PM
Sally may have repented of her adultery, however, so wouldn't that mean she is forgiven?

I guess where some may bring about debate here is this theory that someone can live in a "state" of adultery. I don't believe Scripture supports such a notion, but many like to argue it.

This is a really fascinating thread that raises a number of very important issues.

Hers's my :2cents:

I agree that, if we are truly saved, ALL of our sins were covered by Christ on Calvary.

I also agree that none of us can know for sure where this lady is now.

I don't agree that it's unimportant that we address this issue as an ISSUE, although clearly there's nothing that can be done to change the eternal destiny of this lady now. But surely we should think through the issue for ourselves, as it's so widely prevalent (as has been stated - one of the tragedies of the current professing church).

The key Scriptural points imho appear to be as follows:-

Jesus clearly states that anyone who remarries after being divorced for any ground apart from sexual immorality (and what that is is an argument in itself - eg why didn't Christ uses the ordinary word for adultery, moicheia? see below) is involved in adultery by so doing.
Paul in 1 Cor 6:9 (and Gal 5:19-21) and John in Rev 21:8 (and 1 John 3:4 - 9 - bearing in mind that the tense means "continues to sin as a matter of habit or practice") state that those who practice adultery (as with other sins) - without repenting (which must include ceasing from the sin, surely, as has been said?) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God - this must INCLUDE those who have professed to be Christians.
We have no direct teaching in the NT about what to do if one remarries unbiblically and is then convicted of its sinfulness - but we have the mind of God on the matter in Ezra - can we just ignore this? The moral law of the OT is nowhere contradicted in the NT, but is sometimes applied MORE, not less, strictly (eg Sermon on the Mount).
The woman caught in adultery in John 8 is not said to have remarried, only been caught in (one) act of adultery - surely she is being commanded to break off that relationship when Jesus commands her to "go and sin no more"?
There are difficult questions for those who realise that they are in an unbiblical remarriage: do they remain married, but perhaps make a public acknowledgement before their church that they accept that they started their marriage wrongly but do not want to make matters worse by divorcing, especially if there are children? Do they then become celibate in that marriage? Or do they separate but not divorce? Or do they divorce, following the application of the principles in Ezra? Or would that (the "Ezra" principle) only apply (if at all) to those who have remarried unbelievers (surely the NT equivalent of Jews marrying Gentiles?)? I really don't accept that we can just ignore the passage on "dispensational" grounds because of the teaching in Rom 15:4, 1 Cor 10:11 and 2 Tim 3:16-17 - but there is an argument from those who believe that remarriage is ALWAYS wrong (even following adultery - this has to do with Christ's non-use of moicheia to describe the ground for divorce) that, nonetheless, a couple who have remarried should remain married, because they are legally and validly married (as Christ Himself acknowledges when speaking to the woman at the well) and divorcing would not be right, as it would be an unbiblical breaking of that marriage covenant.Without wanting to be absolute about the matter, I think it is worrying that this lady did not divorce on any biblical ground and appears to have been quite unrepentant about her second marriage. I struggle to see how that is not unrepentant adultery in light of the various Scriptures. I am not saying that all those who remarry in those circumstances are either unsaved or cannot be forgiven - but if there is such clear and open disobedience without any kind of repentance, surely there can be no ground for being 100% confident that Christ was first in her life - and if Christ is not first in a person's life year after year until death, how can we be sure they were saved?

always
Oct 18th 2007, 04:08 PM
I know this is a side-issue, but I don't agree completely with this assertion.

Adultery is actually sexual intimacy with anybody who is not your spouse. Therefore, you can commit adultery with a boyfriend or girlfriend.

Just a thought...

Since no one address this side bar,

adultery is sexual intimacy with someone other than your spouse, only married people can commit adultery.

single people commit, fornication, sexual intimacy with anybody who is not your spouse

9Marksfan
Oct 18th 2007, 04:22 PM
Since no one address this side bar,

adultery is sexual intimacy with someone other than your spouse, only married people can commit adultery.

single people commit, fornication, sexual intimacy with anybody who is not your spouse

Agreed.

In case anyone is wondering what I was driving at in my post, what I believe Jesus is referring to is to sexual immorality during betrothal (which would not be adultery, as the parties were not formally and legally married at that time) - this is why Joseph was considered a "just man" to put Mary away. So, in effect, once the marriage has been consummated, Jesus is teaching that there should be no divorce - makes sense, because God "hates divorce". "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder".

VerticalReality
Oct 18th 2007, 09:15 PM
Agreed.

In case anyone is wondering what I was driving at in my post, what I believe Jesus is referring to is to sexual immorality during betrothal (which would not be adultery, as the parties were not formally and legally married at that time) - this is why Joseph was consodered a "JUST MAN" TO PUT AWAY mARY.

So how can it be considered adultery to marry another if you were never married in the first place?



Matthew 19:8-9
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

9Marksfan
Oct 19th 2007, 11:49 AM
So how can it be considered adultery to marry another if you were never married in the first place?

I don't see the problem - the first marriage is consummated, there is a divorce, one party remarries and consummates the next marriage = adultery, becaue in God's eyes the first marriage is still binding. Or are you thinking that "sexual immorality" (pornea) is in effect "adultery"? I would argue it isn't because Jesus doesn't use the word "moichea" - "pornea" covers the whole range of sins apart from adultery - when one is married and is unfaithful, the sin is one of adultery - moichea - if one is not married, sexual sin is pornea.

VerticalReality
Oct 19th 2007, 12:44 PM
I don't see the problem - the first marriage is consummated, there is a divorce, one party remarries and consummates the next marriage = adultery, becaue in God's eyes the first marriage is still binding.

Which is what Jesus said in Matthew 19. He said that if a man divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another he commits adultery. He can't commit adultery unless he is married, so I don't see how Jesus is talking about betrothal.

Are you trying to say that Jesus is giving an example that a man finds out after his marriage that his wife committed sexual immorality before they were married and now he has the right to divorce her?

9Marksfan
Oct 21st 2007, 04:33 PM
Which is what Jesus said in Matthew 19. He said that if a man divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another he commits adultery. He can't commit adultery unless he is married, so I don't see how Jesus is talking about betrothal.

Are you trying to say that Jesus is giving an example that a man finds out after his marriage that his wife committed sexual immorality before they were married and now he has the right to divorce her?

No - I realised what you were meaning after I replied. Strange as it seems in our culture, "betrothal" was much more serious than our "engagement", which we can break off without any leagl process or any "comeback" from the other party. In Jewish culture, a man could "divorce" his "intended" if he discovered she had been unfaithful during their betrothal (although of course they should be chaste themselves) - this explains Joseph's desire to "put mary away" - the term basically means "divorce" and he would have been "just" for doing so.

The point Jesus is making is that a true understanding of marriage is that, apart from death, the only thing that can dissolve it is sexual immorality during betrothal/engagement - as with all His other teaching, Jesus' is showing just how radical the real application of the law of God is.

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2007, 05:22 PM
No - I realised what you were meaning after I replied. Strange as it seems in our culture, "betrothal" was much more serious than our "engagement", which we can break off without any leagl process or any "comeback" from the other party. In Jewish culture, a man could "divorce" his "intended" if he discovered she had been unfaithful during their betrothal (although of course they should be chaste themselves) - this explains Joseph's desire to "put mary away" - the term basically means "divorce" and he would have been "just" for doing so.

The point Jesus is making is that a true understanding of marriage is that, apart from death, the only thing that can dissolve it is sexual immorality during betrothal/engagement - as with all His other teaching, Jesus' is showing just how radical the real application of the law of God is.

But still though, you're saying that if someone is engaged and they want to break it off because they just don't feel the other is the right person for them that they are going to be guilty of adultery if they choose to eventually marry someone else? How can you be guilty of adultery if you were never married to begin with? I understand what you're saying with Joseph, but I still don't get the adultery part.

And actually, if you want to get technical about it . . . Joseph wouldn't have been "just" in putting away Mary because we know she didn't commit sexual immorality. So, let's say, just to be hypothetical, that had Joseph put away Mary would he have been guilty of adultery since he thought she committed sexual immorality but really didn't?

9Marksfan
Oct 21st 2007, 09:00 PM
But still though, you're saying that if someone is engaged and they want to break it off because they just don't feel the other is the right person for them that they are going to be guilty of adultery if they choose to eventually marry someone else? How can you be guilty of adultery if you were never married to begin with? I understand what you're saying with Joseph, but I still don't get the adultery part.

OK - I see what you mean. That's why Jesus says "except for sexual immorality" - take the sentence as a whole - He's saying that only if one divorces for ANOTHER reason and remarries, adultery is committed.


And actually, if you want to get technical about it . . . Joseph wouldn't have been "just" in putting away Mary because we know she didn't commit sexual immorality. So, let's say, just to be hypothetical, that had Joseph put away Mary would he have been guilty of adultery since he thought she committed sexual immorality but really didn't?

He was just to want to, because that's of course how it seemed - but God intervened to prevent it. This passage is a remarkable account of how God deals so graciously with our well-intended misunderstandings of circumstances - there is no rebuke from the angel, just "Do not be afraid" - wonderful grace!

As for the hypothetical situation - who knows?!?! It was a unique situation! I'm happy to conclude that God intervened to prevent an injustice happening :)

Sold Out
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:14 PM
Sally may have repented of her adultery, however, so wouldn't that mean she is forgiven?

I guess where some may bring about debate here is this theory that someone can live in a "state" of adultery. I don't believe Scripture supports such a notion, but many like to argue it.

What must be noted is that all this occurred BEFORE she was saved. Once we accept Christ, all sin is wiped away.

II Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

She can't change the past, but can only learn to live a Christ-like life now that she's saved.

9Marksfan
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:15 PM
What must be noted is that all this occurred BEFORE she was saved. Once we accept Christ, all sin is wiped away.

II Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

She can't change the past, but can only learn to live a Christ-like life now that she's saved.

I think we've lost sight of some of the posts with the length of this thread!

First of all, it's not Sally - it's her aunt.

Secondly, this happened after, not before, she professed faith.

The problem seems to remain that this was wilful, deliberate, ongoing sin that was never apparently repented of - there are countless "Christian" remarriages in that category today - the more I think about it, the more I think "if these people are all saved, then God no longer hates divorce and Matthew 19 doesn't apply any more". I can't believe either of those is true, so we can all work out the tragic alternative......

NightWatchman
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:26 AM
I think we've lost sight of some of the posts with the length of this thread!

First of all, it's not Sally - it's her aunt.

Secondly, this happened after, not before, she professed faith.

The problem seems to remain that this was wilful, deliberate, ongoing sin that was never apparently repented of - there are countless "Christian" remarriages in that category today - the more I think about it, the more I think "if these people are all saved, then God no longer hates divorce and Matthew 19 doesn't apply any more". I can't believe either of those is true, so we can all work out the tragic alternative......

Remember that no one dies having worked out all of their sins.
Before passing judgment on the situation, take a look at your own heart and soul.
What Bible passages have you (possibly) reinterpreted to suit yourself and your pet sins?

hollandmin
Oct 23rd 2007, 12:53 PM
Hi Sally,

There is only one unpardenable sin, that is rejection of the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31). If your Aunt had confessed that she was a sinner and repented of that sin and placed her trust in Jesus Christ, I would be confident in saying that she is in Heaven. That being said, only God knows the heart of an individual and the relationship that they have with Him.

Now for the issue of Remarriage, and perpetual sin. I can't find anywhere in scripture that states that if you devorce and remarry you are in a state of perpetual sin, again there is no sin that can not be forgiven except for what has been stated above. Everyone has committed adultry as per the definition that Christ has given, does this mean that we are all in a state of continous sin because of our adultry? I would say no as long as repentance has taken place

John tells us in his first letter Chapter 1 and verse 9

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrigheousness."

If it is said that she is living in unrepentant sin because of her second marriage, what should she have done? Should she have divorced again and gone back to her first husband? Wouldn't that have just perpetuated the problem (i.e. a divorce again)? At some point forgiveness has to take place if one repents.
We can also look at David and Bathsheba as an example. Was David living in continuous unrepentant sin even after his repentance in Pslam 51? No, David was forgiven and continued to live in his marriage to Bathsheba and God continued to bless David (after the consiquence of the death of his first child). This tells me that there are consiquences for making bad decisions but God can stll forgive and bless as long as one is humble in understanding there sin and heart felt repentance takes place.

jeffreys
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:17 PM
Since no one address this side bar,

adultery is sexual intimacy with someone other than your spouse, only married people can commit adultery.

single people commit, fornication, sexual intimacy with anybody who is not your spouse

Not necessarily. This is - I will openly admit - a very minor issue, and not one worth arguing over. But in reality, fornication/adultery are sometimes used interchangeably, and both involve sexual intimacy with somebody you're not married to.



From the IVP Commentary on Matthew 5: "From this warning we learn the value that God places on marital and premarital fidelity. Even our thoughts should be only for our spouse; our spouse, rather than a given culture's idealization, should redefine our standard of beauty (compare Song 1:15-16). Of course, since the Bible demands faithfulness in advance to our future spouse (Deut 22:13-21; see also Mt 1:19), the principle Jesus illustrates with "adultery of the heart" could apply to premarital "fornication of the heart" just as well."


http://www.yrm.org/qna-fornication.htm

http://www.yrm.org/_borders/question.GIF
What is the Biblical definition of "Fornication"? —email

http://www.yrm.org/_borders/answer.GIF
The word fornication comes from three separate words in the Bible, two from the Hebrew and one from the Greek. These words all share similar connotations. Each can mean literal fornication between two unmarried persons in a marriage contract; however, it can also signify adultery, whoredom, or an act of unfaithfulness on the part of Yahweh’s people.
The first place the word fornication is used in the Old Testament is found in II Chronicles 21:81. The word fornication found in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 2181, Zanah, and is defined by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as follows: "to commit adultery (usually on the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); fig. To commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of [Yahweh])…"
One thing that might be noted is that the Strong’s only offers a broad definition and not an exact definition. Therefore, to completely understand the usage of a particular word in the Hebrew or Greek, one must examine the context of the passage in question.
Many times you may find a more detailed definition in a word study or a lexicon. While, these sources often prove to be valuable in the understanding of many Hebrew and Greek words, a person also must acknowledge the fact that these were written by man and can be inaccurate in some instances.
For example, The Complete Word Study Old Testament offers a more decisive definition than found in Strong’s. It notes on page 2312 in its Lexical Aid, "To fornicate, commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot, commit adultery; to apostatize, have intercourse with false g-ds or foreigners; to seduce. The main idea is to commit illicit sexual intercourse, particularly with women. However, this strong image is used in a figurative sense to describe illegal contact between Israel and other nations and their g-ds…"
The Complete Word Study Old Testament suggests three possible meanings for the Hebrew word "zanah." The first being fornication (pre-marital, illicit sex), the second being adultery (marital, illicit sex), and the third being idolatry (worship of a person or thing besides Yahweh).
The second word denoting fornication in the English is found only once in the Hebrew, in Ezekiel 16:29. The word fornication in this passage is from the Hebrew, No. 8457, taznuth, and simply means a type of idolatry. Being that this word is only used once, the quest for an exact definition should not be too exhausting.
The third word signifying fornication is found in the Greek and is first used in Matthew 5:32. This word derives from the Greek word, No. 4202, porneia and is defined in the Strong’s as follows, "from 4203; harlotry (incl. Adultery and incest); fig. Idolatry: - fornication."
Again, we only find a broad definition for this Greek word, "porneia." Porneia is used 32 times in the New Testament and conveys many different definitions.
For example, the word fornication in Matthew 5:32 is often taken to denote an act of adultery, however an in-depth study will prove this understanding false, and confirm the real usage of this Greek word "porneia" in this particular passage, which is fornication, pre-material sex.
In the fifth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul admonishes the Corinthian assembly to remove the sin that they were allowing in the assembly. One of the sins listed by the Apostle was a gentile committing "fornication" with his father’s wife. Now this is not what we consider fornication, but more accurately this signifies incest with his stepmother.
Trying to pinpoint this word without examining the passage in question is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Fornication in either the Hebrew or Greek can have and denote a wide range of definitions. It can mean literal fornication, adultery, harlotry, incest, pedophilia, bestiality, or any other sexual restriction that Yahweh has placed for mankind to observe.

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Alyssa S
Oct 24th 2007, 12:48 AM
Hi everyone... I am new to the forum... Please see my post about Divorce and Remarriage and how we confuse covenant with sin...

God bless...
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103891

sallyhunter1
Oct 24th 2007, 06:48 PM
Hi everyone... I am new to the forum... Please see my post about Divorce and Remarriage and how we confuse covenant with sin...

God bless...
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103891

So do you believe my aunt was an adulterer at the time of her death?

9Marksfan
Oct 25th 2007, 11:42 AM
So do you believe my aunt was an adulterer at the time of her death?

Hi Sally

I received a very challenging response to my latest post and I wonder if I might ask you one or two more general questions about your aunt?

Was her second husband a believer?

Was she still actively involved in church life/serving the LORD?

Was her husband?

Did she still appear to love the LORD or did there appear to be a sort of "permanent change" after this remarriage?

Hope you don't feel I'm intruding - your thread raises very important issues and I think it would be good if I - and others who have been posting - were made aware of the "bigger picture".

Hope that's OK?

Thanks.

Nigel