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Redeemed by Grace
Oct 19th 2007, 02:22 PM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

sunney4
Oct 19th 2007, 02:26 PM
does God change your mind in like forcefully change your mind? or not forcefully? I'm confused a little by the question.

AlainaJ
Oct 19th 2007, 02:43 PM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....
It is the Holy Spirt who dwells in us after salvation that changes our mind- meaning I no longer want those thngs I did before I was saved. A light bulb has gone off- I know desire the things of God.

1Cor.2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5075873)

[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.The Holy Spirit teaches us and show us the will of God, so we can change our minds from darkness to light.:)
John.14 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4835552)

[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Acts.4 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4884796)

[8] Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
[31] And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldnessThese men spoke and acted through the power of God- working as the Holy Spirit

GothicAngel
Oct 19th 2007, 02:45 PM
God influences our minds, but doesnt change them.

If He did so, He would be responsible for what we do, including the wrong things we do- which is impossible.

He gives suggestions, and its up to us to respond to those suggestions.

Semi-tortured
Oct 19th 2007, 02:53 PM
I think mind could be described as outlook. Christians struggle with sin, but they now know it's wrong and they try to fight it. It could be viewed as a veil that has been pulled back. I saw the world through my eyes, now the veil has been pulled back and I see it through God's eyes. I see a plant that looked pretty (drugs, fornication, etc.) , but now that the veil is pulled back I see the plant is rotting at the roots and has several leaves being eaten by bugs.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 19th 2007, 03:17 PM
does God change your mind in like forcefully change your mind? or not forcefully? I'm confused a little by the question.

Go whereever you see scripture suggesting.... This mystery can be seen all throughout the word, for God is an active God, so for me a good point I like is:


Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.


Hope this clarifies the question for you to offer a response....:)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 19th 2007, 03:19 PM
Another sound bite is:

Jude 24,25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 19th 2007, 03:22 PM
And one more for now:

Genesis 20:6
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.

VerticalReality
Oct 19th 2007, 03:29 PM
Go whereever you see scripture suggesting.... This mystery can be seen all throughout the word, for God is an active God, so for me a good point I like is:


Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.


Hope this clarifies the question for you to offer a response....:)

A Scripture in the New Testament that sort of relates to this in regards to repentance that I like is this . . .



Romans 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?


It's because of His goodness that He leads us to repentance. I don't believe he forces us to change our mind, but like it says, I do believe He guides and leads us in the direction He would like us to go.

Pleroo
Oct 19th 2007, 04:10 PM
This is what quickly came to my mind when I read your question, RBG:

Rom 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

The way I read this, it doesn't say transform ourselves. It says BE transformed. It's something being done to us, in us.

And lest we think that we are responsible for the renewing of the mind which is necessary for that transformation to take place:

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Toolman
Oct 19th 2007, 04:22 PM
I think the only biblical answer is an absolute "yes". God changes our mind.

Now, we step into the realm of "HOW" does God change our mind.

Does God purely use external forces to bring about change in our mind.

Does God purely use internal forces to bring about change in our mind.

A combination of both? Is each individual experience different in degree?

How do determinism and our will play into the discussion. Is there determinism? Is there "free will"? Is our will compatible with determism?

Should be interesting.

I personally thank God that He changed my mind and continues to change my mind (however He does it). He rescues me from my own worst enemy. Me!

Teke
Oct 19th 2007, 04:56 PM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

Does love change your mind or get your attention?

Luk 11:36 If thy whole body therefore full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, [B]as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.


Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

Pleroo
Oct 19th 2007, 05:09 PM
I personally thank God that He changed my mind and continues to change my mind (however He does it). He rescues me from my own worst enemy. Me!

I agree, of course, but it begs the question -- why does it take so long for that rescue to take place sometimes? Was thinking about that earlier this morning, actually. I assume that is His will to allow the battle raging within us to continue for whatever period of time He has determined will best suit His purpose of conforming our will to His and making us into His image. I find that both disconcerting and somewhat comforting at the same time.

And how does one keep from falling into a fatalistic life-view which could lead to apathy, while still fully acknowledging God's sovereignty? It almost seems like one has to be able to see both sides of the coin at the same time - one side is to take responsibility for utilizing the means of grace that God has provided us with, while the other side is to acknowledge that it is only God's working within us which causes us to desire that grace.

Anyway, just some things I was contemplating in the shower this morning. :lol:

dancedwithdolphin
Oct 19th 2007, 05:21 PM
The way Jesus taught was remarkable. He caused people to see things in a totally different light. The views previously held were brought into question.

The Lord had done this in my life. There are so many things in this world we live in that we have never brought into question. We were raised in such a way that this was just the way things were.

I remember a story about this little girl asking her mother why she cut the ham down on Thanksgiving. The mother told the little girl she didnt know, that was the way her mother did it and her mother's mother. So the little girls mother asked the question to her grandmother, why do we cut the ham down on Thanksgiving? The grandmother told her the reason she cut the ham down was so it would fit into the pan.

I laughed when I read this because this is how we are. We dont always know why we do the things we do.

It is in the honestly asking, that we find out the truth.

I like the story of Peter walking on the water for this one. He had to throw out everything he knew to be true. I mean the idea of gravity would have made this act impossible. Faith in God makes what was once impossible possible.

I want God to renew my mind. Give me a whole new perspective on things. This world is boring, it doesnt offer the impossible possibilities. I already know what I can do, I want to know what God can do thru me. And if it takes changing everything I thought I knew and understood, well praise God and bring it on!

God Bless

Pleroo
Oct 19th 2007, 05:28 PM
I already know what I can do, I want to know what God can do thru me. And if it takes changing everything I thought I knew and understood, well praise God and bring it on!


Amen, DWD! (I can't rep, so I had to say it here. :) :hug: )

Frances
Oct 19th 2007, 05:36 PM
I think the only biblical answer is an absolute "yes". God changes our mind.

I disagree. God strongly encourages each of us to change our mind to conform with His Will for us, but each of us is free to reject the best He offers. As has already been said, each of us is responsible for changing our own mind (Romans 12:2) God will encourage us to take that decision, but will not do it for us, or force His Will upon us (eg.Mark 10:17-22).

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 19th 2007, 05:49 PM
God writes the Law into our hearts if we are willing, and open to that, and that will produce a changed mind and therefore we will produce fruit in line with His Word.

Shalom,
Tanja

Toolman
Oct 19th 2007, 06:25 PM
I disagree. God strongly encourages each of us to change our mind to conform with His Will for us, but each of us is free to reject the best He offers. As has already been said, each of us is responsible for changing our own mind (Romans 12:2) God will encourage us to take that decision, but will not do it for us, or force His Will upon us (eg.Mark 10:17-22).

If God is encouraging us to change our mind then it is He who is changing our mind :)

That was why I posed: Does he change our minds via only external forces (His word, His commands, consequences of sin, etc.) or does He also change our minds via internal forces (Holy Spirit, Grace, etc.).

For example, lets say that you and I were discussing an issue. You believed "A" about the issue and I believed "B" about the issue.
Now, lets say that thru presenting certain logic I convinced you that "B" was the truth. You could rightly say that I changed your mind on the subject.
Without me (or someone presenting "B") you would still hold to "A".

This would be an example of God changing minds thru external forces.

Make sense?

As far as God forcing His will upon us I go to scripture which says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. There are only 2 options here. Either people will bow and confess of their own willingness to do so or they will be forced to do so. So, not sure how well that whole "God doesn't force people to do things against their will" in certain schools of belief.

Toolman
Oct 19th 2007, 06:33 PM
I agree, of course, but it begs the question -- why does it take so long for that rescue to take place sometimes? Was thinking about that earlier this morning, actually. I assume that is His will to allow the battle raging within us to continue for whatever period of time He has determined will best suit His purpose of conforming our will to His and making us into His image. I find that both disconcerting and somewhat comforting at the same time.

Its a great question and I have to believe that we are actually "learning" (becoming?) something in the process and I guess that is where faith comes in and says "I don't know but I trust".

Ain't easy always :)


And how does one keep from falling into a fatalistic life-view which could lead to apathy, while still fully acknowledging God's sovereignty? It almost seems like one has to be able to see both sides of the coin at the same time - one side is to take responsibility for utilizing the means of grace that God has provided us with, while the other side is to acknowledge that it is only God's working within us which causes us to desire that grace.

The old "Both And" instead of the "Either Or", which is where our western minds tend to go because of logic.

I see more "Both And"s in scripture than "Either Or"s.


Anyway, just some things I was contemplating in the shower this morning. :lol:

Hehe... a little quiet time :rofl:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 19th 2007, 09:33 PM
Another little morsel for consideration:

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

RogerW
Oct 19th 2007, 09:55 PM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

Hmmm, do I believe in the providence of God over His creation, or do I believe in blind fortune, fate, luck and chance? Well I believe everything that happens in this world is divinely planned, and each event calls us to trust that God is orchastrating all things (both good & evil) for eternal good. Nothing happens unless God wills it, and all things work together for good to those who love the Lord, who are called according to His purpose. (Ro 8:28)

Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Since God is providentially governing all of His creation for eternal good, how then can we say man's will is truly free?

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 20th 2007, 03:52 AM
Hmmm, do I believe in the providence of God over His creation, or do I believe in blind fortune, fate, luck and chance? Well I believe everything that happens in this world is divinely planned, and each event calls us to trust that God is orchastrating all things (both good & evil) for eternal good. Nothing happens unless God wills it, and all things work together for good to those who love the Lord, who are called according to His purpose. (Ro 8:28)

Ge 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Since God is providentially governing all of His creation for eternal good, how then can we say man's will is truly free?

Many Blessings,
RW


Hi Roger... Nice reply! So taking your comments to the next step, how would you defend the 'willful' sin that man does each day.... Does God allow it or is He behind it, or somehow both or somehow neither?


So could you explain with scripture if you were to sin -- it's you who sins or how it would be God behind it if it were 'meant unto good'?

I agree with your observation, but would like your biblical wordsmithing of your understandings to this intricate point of life.

Thanks...

Teke
Oct 20th 2007, 01:11 PM
If God is encouraging us to change our mind then it is He who is changing our mind :)

That was why I posed: Does he change our minds via only external forces (His word, His commands, consequences of sin, etc.) or does He also change our minds via internal forces (Holy Spirit, Grace, etc.).

For example, lets say that you and I were discussing an issue. You believed "A" about the issue and I believed "B" about the issue.
Now, lets say that thru presenting certain logic I convinced you that "B" was the truth. You could rightly say that I changed your mind on the subject.
Without me (or someone presenting "B") you would still hold to "A".

This would be an example of God changing minds thru external forces.

Make sense?

As far as God forcing His will upon us I go to scripture which says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. There are only 2 options here. Either people will bow and confess of their own willingness to do so or they will be forced to do so. So, not sure how well that whole "God doesn't force people to do things against their will" in certain schools of belief.

I believe worship changes us. As we perfect our worship in Christ, we are changed. It is the mind in the heart.

1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, [that] shall do according to [that] which [is] in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.


Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


Act 11:23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

ProjectPeter
Oct 20th 2007, 01:39 PM
Bible tells us to repent and turn to God... doesn't say God repents us turning us to Him.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 20th 2007, 02:45 PM
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

2 Corinthians 7:9
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The Bible ALSO tells us that God is the one behind repentance.... so the sum of scripture is truth so all points must be included for consideration with understanding.

miepie
Oct 20th 2007, 02:54 PM
God does change my mind..... sometimes I need to make a decision........ and I think I have it right, but after praying God shows me a whole different way.... then I do change my mind.......

Wherever He wants me, I will follow.... :pray:

love you,
Mieke :kiss:

walked
Oct 20th 2007, 03:14 PM
God does change my mind..... sometimes I need to make a decision........ and I think I have it right, but after praying God shows me a whole different way.... then I do change my mind.......

Wherever He wants me, I will follow.... :pray:

love you,
Mieke :kiss:

Amen !
God changes my mind usually more than once a day

FoG
Oct 20th 2007, 03:15 PM
If God did not change my mind, I would be in a very bad way right about now. Sorry to be so brief, but it really is simple as that to me.

Praise the Lord for changing me!!:pp

ProjectPeter
Oct 20th 2007, 03:22 PM
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

2 Corinthians 7:9
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The Bible ALSO tells us that God is the one behind repentance.... so the sum of scripture is truth so all points must be included for consideration with understanding.And which of those passages say that God "repents" you? I mean ultimately this is where you are getting at and you've yet to show that. The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin thus granting repentance that leads to life... that happened at the cross.

Just as Paul corrected the Corinth church in that first letter and that letter produced a godly sorrow leading to repentance... Paul instructs Timothy to do the same with folks that perhaps it will also produce that same sort of sorrow in them.

ProjectPeter
Oct 20th 2007, 03:24 PM
And just a note to many of you... He's not talking about changing your mind on decisions you make in your every day life. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 20th 2007, 05:10 PM
And which of those passages say that God "repents" you? I mean ultimately this is where you are getting at and you've yet to show that.

Huh?!?! What do you mean by God repents you? Are you saying that God doesn't work within man in so that He opens eyes and hearts?





The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin thus granting repentance that leads to life... that happened at the cross.

So you're speak of universal reconciliation then?




Just as Paul corrected the Corinth church in that first letter and that letter produced a godly sorrow leading to repentance... Paul instructs Timothy to do the same with folks that perhaps it will also produce that same sort of sorrow in them.

This is your doctrine speaking.... which as we know is different than mine... :saint:

ProjectPeter
Oct 20th 2007, 05:32 PM
Huh?!?! What do you mean by God repents you? Are you saying that God doesn't work within man in so that He opens eyes and hearts?No... and you know that. My next statement clarified the point.






So you're speak of universal reconciliation then?And I suppose you would say you are asking that "honestly?" Shows a lot of motive here because you know better than that and I am rather surprised you would even play that game what with you hating such tactics yourself eh?


This is your doctrine speaking.... which as we know is different than mine... :saint:That it certainly is.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 20th 2007, 06:33 PM
No... and you know that. My next statement clarified the point.

Well actually it didn't....




And I suppose you would say you are asking that "honestly?" Shows a lot of motive here because you know better than that and I am rather surprised you would even play that game what with you hating such tactics yourself eh?

Motive, come now Ken, I'm asking questions... Let's look what you wrote:



And which of those passages say that God "repents" you? I mean ultimately this is where you are getting at and you've yet to show that. The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin thus granting repentance that leads to life... that happened at the cross.

In reading your words at face value, you stated I said 'God repents you'... then you state that the 'Spirit of God convicts the world of sin' --- thus 'granting repentance that leads to life'. The subject of your sentence is what? And your object to the subject is what? I see what you have written as saying the God saves the world... That's what you wrote --- so I gotta ask for clarification... which I did... for which you label as a tactic and I'm equally disappointed by your negativity towards me....

But hey, you love to joust at me so I consider that my calling --- Have fun :P

ProjectPeter
Oct 20th 2007, 07:23 PM
Well actually it didn't....




Motive, come now Ken, I'm asking questions... Let's look what you wrote:



In reading your words at face value, you stated I said 'God repents you'... then you state that the 'Spirit of God convicts the world of sin' --- thus 'granting repentance that leads to life'. The subject of your sentence is what? And your object to the subject is what? I see what you have written as saying the God saves the world... That's what you wrote --- so I gotta ask for clarification... which I did... for which you label as a tactic and I'm equally disappointed by your negativity towards me....

But hey, you love to joust at me so I consider that my calling --- Have fun :P
So in the couple of years we've been jousting... you ask me am I pushing "universal reconcilliation" and you ask me that for "clarification?" You'll have to excuse me for not seeing that for how I see it.

The Spirit convicting the world isn't the world responding to that conviction. Many will not. But then you knew that is what I meant since we've had this joust probably what... 2 or 3 or 20 times over the years? ;)

RogerW
Oct 20th 2007, 07:58 PM
Hi Roger... Nice reply! So taking your comments to the next step, how would you defend the 'willful' sin that man does each day.... Does God allow it or is He behind it, or somehow both or somehow neither?

So could you explain with scripture if you were to sin -- it's you who sins or how it would be God behind it if it were 'meant unto good'?

I agree with your observation, but would like your biblical wordsmithing of your understandings to this intricate point of life.

Thanks...

Greetings Rbg,

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Our faith is always tried, and sometimes it is found to be counterfeit. We go through these trials of faith to determine whether we are leaning on our own flesh, or the Lord. To know the genuineness of my faith, my faith must be tried. Trials not only reveal true faith, but work to encourage patience (Ro 5:3). How can we learn patience, pity, compassion and perseverance if God does not try us? We must endure trials without seeking ways out of them, so the full work of the trial may be accomplished in us. When we endure we grow into mature grace.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
These trials are from the Father, and for our good. They reveal and strengthen faith. But there are also inward temptations which are fleshly desires that entice us to sin. God is NOT the author of these. They come from the corrupt nature. God is pure and holy, not subject to or tempted by anything evil; neither does He ever tempt anyone to sin. Every man who sins against God does so because he is tempted, enticed and caught in the snare of his own inward lust. We are born with this lust, it continues with us, and it is all our own (Ps 51:5; 58:3; Ro 7:18,21; Gal 5:17). Anything evil we do is attributed to ourselves and our sinful natures, not to God!

When we are born again we are dead to the influence of sin (Ro 7:15,19), we are dead to its presence (Ro 7:21), and we are dead to its effects (Ro 7:24; Ps 51:3). We are instructed to pray “Forgive us our sins” (1Jo 1:9). We are dead to sins penalty and guilt; sin can no longer condemn us (Ro 8:33,34). We are dead to sins mastery, ruling over us; Christ is our Lord. Finally we are dead to sin as a course of life; it is not looked upon as a friend but as an enemy.

All of the burden and penalty of sin has been lifted when we are in Christ, but from birth the old nature is still with us. It is in understanding the freedom we have received in Christ that enables us not to try to improve the old man, but to destroy it. We crucify daily the old man by the Spirit and grace of Christ. The lusts of the old nature remains with us until death, and we must not indulge it, but crucify it (Gal 5:24). It is in overcoming our sin nature that we begin to see complete deliverance from sin’s curse, guilt and dominion in Christ. Overcoming sin is necessary or we cannot see complete deliverance in Christ, and we open the door to unbelief and doubt and leave room for attacks from legalism and self-righteousness.

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Ro 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 21st 2007, 03:25 AM
So in the couple of years we've been jousting... you ask me am I pushing "universal reconcilliation" and you ask me that for "clarification?" You'll have to excuse me for not seeing that for how I see it.

The Spirit convicting the world isn't the world responding to that conviction. Many will not. But then you knew that is what I meant since we've had this joust probably what... 2 or 3 or 20 times over the years? ;)


Many times you are not an easy read, for your words go one way and then another... and it's hard to follow what you are trying to say --- for that's why I was surprised to see what you wrote....

And I will never assume anything...it's better to come from you than me assuming anything... it's safer to ask than assume, and that's what I did and your reply filled in more blanks... Thanks.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 21st 2007, 03:31 AM
Greetings Rbg,

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Our faith is always tried, and sometimes it is found to be counterfeit. We go through these trials of faith to determine whether we are leaning on our own flesh, or the Lord. To know the genuineness of my faith, my faith must be tried. Trials not only reveal true faith, but work to encourage patience (Ro 5:3). How can we learn patience, pity, compassion and perseverance if God does not try us? We must endure trials without seeking ways out of them, so the full work of the trial may be accomplished in us. When we endure we grow into mature grace.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
These trials are from the Father, and for our good. They reveal and strengthen faith. But there are also inward temptations which are fleshly desires that entice us to sin. God is NOT the author of these. They come from the corrupt nature. God is pure and holy, not subject to or tempted by anything evil; neither does He ever tempt anyone to sin. Every man who sins against God does so because he is tempted, enticed and caught in the snare of his own inward lust. We are born with this lust, it continues with us, and it is all our own (Ps 51:5; 58:3; Ro 7:18,21; Gal 5:17). Anything evil we do is attributed to ourselves and our sinful natures, not to God!

When we are born again we are dead to the influence of sin (Ro 7:15,19), we are dead to its presence (Ro 7:21), and we are dead to its effects (Ro 7:24; Ps 51:3). We are instructed to pray “Forgive us our sins” (1Jo 1:9). We are dead to sins penalty and guilt; sin can no longer condemn us (Ro 8:33,34). We are dead to sins mastery, ruling over us; Christ is our Lord. Finally we are dead to sin as a course of life; it is not looked upon as a friend but as an enemy.

All of the burden and penalty of sin has been lifted when we are in Christ, but from birth the old nature is still with us. It is in understanding the freedom we have received in Christ that enables us not to try to improve the old man, but to destroy it. We crucify daily the old man by the Spirit and grace of Christ. The lusts of the old nature remains with us until death, and we must not indulge it, but crucify it (Gal 5:24). It is in overcoming our sin nature that we begin to see complete deliverance from sin’s curse, guilt and dominion in Christ. Overcoming sin is necessary or we cannot see complete deliverance in Christ, and we open the door to unbelief and doubt and leave room for attacks from legalism and self-righteousness.

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Ro 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,


I smiled a big smile when I read your post.... Mighty fine hermeneutics of scripture.

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 03:32 AM
Many times you are not an easy read, for your words go one way and then another... and it's hard to follow what you are trying to say --- for that's why I was surprised to see what you wrote....

And I will never assume anything...it's better to come from you than me assuming anything... it's safer to ask than assume, and that's what I did and your reply filled in more blanks... Thanks.
I see... so you figured I'm a closet UR sort of guy and figured you would check! I'm right sure that would surprise a whole lot of UR guys around here. :rolleyes:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 21st 2007, 03:37 AM
I see... so you figured I'm a closet UR sort of guy and figured you would check! I'm right sure that would surprise a whole lot of UR guys around here. :rolleyes:


LOL... closet UR.... now there's one for the books....

Teke
Oct 21st 2007, 03:48 AM
Bible tells us to repent and turn to God...

I agree. The Greek word metonia, meaning repentance, in the literal sense means a change of mind. A reconsideration of ones views.

As I said in my previous post, the mind in the heart. As His Light illuminates it we are able to see things more clearly, resulting in repentance.

Worship should be more of our focus. Not being immersed in sin and our minds occupied solely with worldly cares. :)

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 04:24 AM
I agree. The Greek word metonia, meaning repentance, in the literal sense means a change of mind. A reconsideration of ones views.

As I said in my previous post, the mind in the heart. As His Light illuminates it we are able to see things more clearly, resulting in repentance.

Worship should be more of our focus. Not being immersed in sin and our minds occupied solely with worldly cares. :)
Exactly... and it is we who are told to do this. Scripture doesn't say that God repents us... or "changes our mind". In other words... it is us who has to change our mind. Our hearts can be pricked... but we have to change our own mind and follow God... repent and follow God.

Teke
Oct 21st 2007, 04:37 AM
Exactly... and it is we who are told to do this. Scripture doesn't say that God repents us... or "changes our mind". In other words... it is us who has to change our mind. Our hearts can be pricked... but we have to change our own mind and follow God... repent and follow God.

Here is an example of "apostolic" teaching on the mind of the heart and repentance. ;)

Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

ikester7579
Oct 21st 2007, 09:43 AM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

He has with me on many occasions. What is bad is when I find myself resisting.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 21st 2007, 12:06 PM
Exactly... and it is we who are told to do this. Scripture doesn't say that God repents us... or "changes our mind". In other words... it is us who has to change our mind. Our hearts can be pricked... but we have to change our own mind and follow God... repent and follow God.


So then dear brother, how does Romans 3 fit into your hermeneutics if no one seeks after God without God's changing their mind first?

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 01:07 PM
Here is an example of "apostolic" teaching on the mind of the heart and repentance. ;)

Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Much there for those that can see it.

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 01:45 PM
So then dear brother, how does Romans 3 fit into your hermeneutics if no one seeks after God without God's changing their mind first?

Romans 3:10-12
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."As Paul makes clear RbG... all, be you Jew or Gentile, are under sin. All of us stand guilty before God. That was his point in Romans 1 when speaking of the Gentile and then in chapter 2 when telling them... you who judge are also without excuse. He goes on making it clear... it ain't about Jew or Gentile but it is about those that do. He then make it clear that those that rest in the Law are resting in the wrong thing. It isn't a circumcision of the flesh that matters a whit. This requires a circumcision of the heart. Something that happens to the heart (inwardly) and not the body member (outwardly)... it is that inward that benefits you.

Are we (Jews) any better? Paul's answer was a FIRM "no". All are under sin... be it Jew or Gentile. Paul is still talking about the uselessness of the Law in regard to salvation. Even though you have the Law... that alone is nothing and you are still under sin. Apart from the Law... we have righteousness revealed and that is revealed through faith in Jesus. To whom? All who believe. Not all whom God made believe... but simply all who believe. Jew or Gentile... there is no partiality with God.

You can pick that piece out and try and make it into what it ain't... but what I have said here is the context in which Paul speaks and uses that passage.

Teke
Oct 21st 2007, 02:06 PM
To further what PP posted. After Paul's told of "the unfaithfulness" (without excuse, none worthy), he tells us in chp 4 of Abrahams model faithfulness. It is quite evident that man is able to do something with himself. God made Abraham righteous, but not before the fact of his faith in action. God has done everything for man to respond to Him and attain that righteousness.

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 03:19 PM
To further what PP posted. After Paul's told of "the unfaithfulness" (without excuse, none worthy), he tells us in chp 4 of Abrahams model faithfulness. It is quite evident that man is able to do something with himself. God made Abraham righteous, but not before the fact of his faith in action. God has done everything for man to respond to Him and attain that righteousness.Which is exactly how folks can very easily reconcile Paul's writings with the writing of James. ;)

RogerW
Oct 21st 2007, 05:30 PM
Greetings,

Does this ability to perform these acts of faith, e.g. turning away from sin, come without help from on high? Indeed there is a command to obedience, but to obey is not possible apart from He Who is in me. If I am relying on my own strength to keep me from committing sin, then I am doomed to failure.

Lu 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

God is providential in all things, even in the sin we commit. That does not mean that God entices us, or causes us to sin, but sin is a necessary part of growing in grace and faith. Sometimes we have opportunities to sin but lack any inner compulsion to pursue them; at other times we experience an inner compulsion but opportunity is lacking or we are providentially protected from taking it. But when temptation, desire, and opportunity coincide, the evil has come. So it was for David (2Sam 11:1ff); so it may be for us. Then it is all we can do to stand. Indeed to remain standing is a great fruit of GRACE in us, but not from us. We cannot wage this battle without the grace of God. The battle is to by waged by us IN THE LORD. We cannot rely on our own resources (so-called our own faith) to resist the temptation that comes from our own flesh, the world, and very often from Satan.

God sometimes allows His children to fall in sin so they, like David will acknowledge, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Every sin we commit is against God. The result of David’s great sin was a broken and contrite heart, and this is what the Lord requires of us, that we acknowledge our sinfulness, and in true repentance and contrition mourn with great tears and bitterness over the evil we are all capable of.

Have you ever noticed, or perhaps experienced the ache of falling into the same sin again and again? We sometimes look at this as a bad habit that must be broken, but we ought to see this as God allowing us to succumb again and again because we have yet to learn that when we commit sin it is against God. God says “My grace is sufficient for you”, do we rely on His grace to overcome when we are tempted to sin, or do we think we can stand in our own faith?

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Many Blessings,
RW

9Marksfan
Oct 21st 2007, 09:20 PM
And how does one keep from falling into a fatalistic life-view which could lead to apathy, while still fully acknowledging God's sovereignty? It almost seems like one has to be able to see both sides of the coin at the same time - one side is to take responsibility for utilizing the means of grace that God has provided us with, while the other side is to acknowledge that it is only God's working within us which causes us to desire that grace.

I struggle with this apparent paradox all the time! Bit I have found this Scripture helpful:-

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 20-21

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Saviour, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen." Jude 24

Possibly the "ultimate" "Both/and"?!?

God keeps us and the only way we can keep ourselves is by building ourselves up on our faith (yet it is Christ who will build His Church), praying - yet in the Holy Spirit - and looking to Christ! So it's all of Him! :pp:pp:pp

Illumined
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:39 AM
Job 33:14-17
14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,
16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:10 AM
As Paul makes clear RbG... all, be you Jew or Gentile, are under sin. All of us stand guilty before God. That was his point in Romans 1 when speaking of the Gentile and then in chapter 2 when telling them... you who judge are also without excuse. He goes on making it clear... it ain't about Jew or Gentile but it is about those that do. He then make it clear that those that rest in the Law are resting in the wrong thing. It isn't a circumcision of the flesh that matters a whit. This requires a circumcision of the heart. Something that happens to the heart (inwardly) and not the body member (outwardly)... it is that inward that benefits you.

Are we (Jews) any better? Paul's answer was a FIRM "no". All are under sin... be it Jew or Gentile. Paul is still talking about the uselessness of the Law in regard to salvation. Even though you have the Law... that alone is nothing and you are still under sin. Apart from the Law... we have righteousness revealed and that is revealed through faith in Jesus. To whom? All who believe. Not all whom God made believe... but simply all who believe. Jew or Gentile... there is no partiality with God.

You can pick that piece out and try and make it into what it ain't... but what I have said here is the context in which Paul speaks and uses that passage.

Then I'll put you down as a No, God never changes your mind, not at all....

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:58 AM
God is providential in all things, even in the sin we commit. That does not mean that God entices us, or causes us to sin, but sin is a necessary part of growing in grace and faith. Sometimes we have opportunities to sin but lack any inner compulsion to pursue them; at other times we experience an inner compulsion but opportunity is lacking or we are providentially protected from taking it. But when temptation, desire, and opportunity coincide, the evil has come. So it was for David (2Sam 11:1ff); so it may be for us. Then it is all we can do to stand. Indeed to remain standing is a great fruit of GRACE in us, but not from us. We cannot wage this battle without the grace of God. The battle is to by waged by us IN THE LORD. We cannot rely on our own resources (so-called our own faith) to resist the temptation that comes from our own flesh, the world, and very often from Satan.

God sometimes allows His children to fall in sin so they, like David will acknowledge, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Every sin we commit is against God. The result of David’s great sin was a broken and contrite heart, and this is what the Lord requires of us, that we acknowledge our sinfulness, and in true repentance and contrition mourn with great tears and bitterness over the evil we are all capable of.

Have you ever noticed, or perhaps experienced the ache of falling into the same sin again and again? We sometimes look at this as a bad habit that must be broken, but we ought to see this as God allowing us to succumb again and again because we have yet to learn that when we commit sin it is against God. God says “My grace is sufficient for you”, do we rely on His grace to overcome when we are tempted to sin, or do we think we can stand in our own faith?

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Many Blessings,
RWAmazing isn't it? Here we read how sin is a "necessary part of growing in grace?" Imagine the silliness of Paul trying to stop folks from growing in this grace when he told folks to "STOP SINNING". How can this be seen as anything other than simply "excusing sin?"

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:59 AM
Then I'll put you down as a No, God never changes your mind, not at all....Like I said RbG... in the way you are trying to get your point out here... you can put it down. Like I told folks... you aren't speaking of everyday life things here. So when folks actually figure out your point... I figure you'll have plenty of folks on your "no" list. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:24 PM
Like I said RbG... in the way you are trying to get your point out here... you can put it down. Like I told folks... you aren't speaking of everyday life things here. So when folks actually figure out your point... I figure you'll have plenty of folks on your "no" list. ;)

Can't pull anything past you.... What was I thinking?

Why did I quote all those nuggets of scripture that speak to God's working in and through lives, knowing that PP will see right through me -- that I'm really trying to fool people and PP exposing me for who I am.

Praise God then.... For I stand open to say that God works in and through people, and it's because of Christ changing me that I can say I live....

So folks, figure it out and take PP's warning if you believe that God doesn't work in your life changing you, nudging you, conforming you in Christ.

Choose between knowing that it's God working in you for His glory and your benefit or that it's all up to you, that God stays away from bringing you to Himself, or even changing your heart on things....


Choose between your work of repentance alone or of God giving you the wisdom of salvation's call, the circumstances, the humble broken heart, the gratitude, grace and faith to hear, to understand and respond....


Choose between praying to God for Him to change the heart of a loved one to become a believer, to pray for a friend that God change his heart about a subject, or to say God doesn't change hearts, not at all.

Choose to submit to the wisdom of knowing that those who 'rightly' choose have been subtly given that wisdom, just as each breath you take has also been given to you.

Folks, PP has turned this topic into a personal challenge...and to this end... Praise God.... So take a stand, take a side: does God change 'your' mind?

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:41 PM
Otherwise known as the "T" in TULIP. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:55 PM
Otherwise known as the "T" in TULIP. ;)

Don't go there!

And don't bring your predispositions regarding what this topic is all about, the question is simple: 'Does God change your mind?' You have answered with a no.

So you should be done... your 'no' has been given and duly noted....

:) Have a nice day. :)

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:05 PM
Don't go there!

And don't bring your predispositions regarding what this topic is all about, the question is simple: 'Does God change your mind?' You have answered with a no.

So you should be done... your 'no' has been given and duly noted....

:) Have a nice day. :)
Ha! Let me remind you what you said in your first post. ;)


The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men? I was looking beyond the simple! :)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:25 PM
Ha! Let me remind you what you said in your first post. ;)

I was looking beyond the simple! :)



And which of those passages say that God "repents" you? I mean ultimately this is where you are getting at and you've yet to show that. The Spirit of God convicts the world of sin thus granting repentance that leads to life... that happened at the cross.

Just as Paul corrected the Corinth church in that first letter and that letter produced a godly sorrow leading to repentance... Paul instructs Timothy to do the same with folks that perhaps it will also produce that same sort of sorrow in them.



And just a note to many of you... He's not talking about changing your mind on decisions you make in your every day life. ;)


Ha back at ya.... For you held court, passed judgment, and decreed the intent of the thread to your own bias at the beginning of your contributions in it... so your words have not been on the thread topic --- but on judging my intent...to discredit the thread and thus me.... But hey, you obviously want people to know that you are right and that I am out to trick folks, for if not why 'the note to the many of you' that says so'?

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:42 PM
Ha back at ya.... For you held court, passed judgment, and decreed the intent of the thread to your own bias at the beginning of your contributions in it... so your words have not been on the thread topic --- but on judging my intent...to discredit the thread and thus me.... But hey, you obviously want people to know that you are right and that I am out to trick folks, for if not why 'the note to the many of you' that says so'?Uh... you are reading an awful lot into this RbG! Goodness!

kardia
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:55 PM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

The following verse answers the question:

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" (Php 2:5 KJVA)

Another version puts it like this:

"Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus," (Php 2:5 HCSB)

Now, it is quite obvious that it is according to the will of God that our thoughts would be reflective of His thoughts (within our own capacity of course).

The instruction to 'let', or 'make' this happen, informs us that we have a choice. This then means that God does not impose His thoughts on us, so as to change our way of thinking against our will; instead, He gives us the opportunity to choose to think and act like Him.

So He doesn't change the mind in the sense that He superimposes His thoughts on us; but He certainly does influence us to change our way of thinking. And when we choose to accept His ways, He empowers us to live according to them.

This doesn't happen all at once, of course; but over time we draw closer and closer to Him as we yield every aspect of our lives to Jesus Christ.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9 HCSB)

So He does work within our hearts; but He doesn't do this without knocking first:

"Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me."
(Rev 3:20 HCSB)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:56 PM
Uh... you are reading an awful lot into this RbG! Goodness!



Only read what you have written.... ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:59 PM
Only read what you have written.... ;)
And added some commentary as well! :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:18 PM
And added some commentary as well! :lol:


Please, who who trying to kid here? You words are good enough alone from any commentary by me



And just a note to many of you... He's not talking about changing your mind on decisions you make in your every day life.

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Pleroo http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1414851#post1414851)
I agree, of course, but it begs the question -- why does it take so long for that rescue to take place sometimes? Was thinking about that earlier this morning, actually. I assume that is His will to allow the battle raging within us to continue for whatever period of time He has determined will best suit His purpose of conforming our will to His and making us into His image. I find that both disconcerting and somewhat comforting at the same time.


Its a great question and I have to believe that we are actually "learning" (becoming?) something in the process and I guess that is where faith comes in and says "I don't know but I trust".

Ain't easy always :)


Just came across a quote that I appreciated in this regard. It's not exactly on topic with the o.p. but hope you won't mind RbG.



Quickened we may be, and are, while yet not severed from the first creation; sons of God we are even while not yet "delivered from the bondage of corruption" (Rom. 8:21); for here, as in nature, there is conception before quickening, and quickening before birth, and, long after the life of Christ is conceived in us, it lacks for a season the image of the man, though this surely will come in its season; but the seed is not brought to perfection in a moment, or without separation from its first temporary home, through the travail pains of nature, and the bursting of one shell of life after another, till all is perfected. Nor can we safely hurry the process, though till it is accomplished we are imperfect. For just as in nature a babe may be born too soon, so is it in grace: our days of bondage and darkness in the womb of nature are all appointed, and good for us. Therefore the elect is "made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth" (Psa. 139:15), while lost and fallen spirits "corrupt themselves by reason of their brightness" (Ezek. 28:17).

"The New Man", Andrew Jukes

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:42 PM
Just came across a quote that I appreciated in this regard. It's not exactly on topic with the o.p. but hope you won't mind RbG.


Don't mind at all Pleroo, it's way closer to the OP than most of my posts today have been... :)

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:45 PM
Please, who who trying to kid here? You words are good enough alone from any commentary by me
You might go back a bit where I came in on the discussion. You guys were now taking it into a freewill/repentance/salvation thing by the time I joined in. That's exactly why I said what I did! Shoot man... go back and read and you should be able to see it pretty clear I would hope!

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:06 PM
You might go back a bit where I came in on the discussion. You guys were now taking it into a freewill/repentance/salvation thing by the time I joined in. That's exactly why I said what I did! Shoot man... go back and read and you should be able to see it pretty clear I would hope!

Well I did and don't see it the same as you.... This is your entry point and my posting history to your post....


Bible tells us to repent and turn to God... doesn't say God repents us turning us to Him.


Hi Roger... Nice reply! So taking your comments to the next step, how would you defend the 'willful' sin that man does each day.... Does God allow it or is He behind it, or somehow both or somehow neither?


So could you explain with scripture if you were to sin -- it's you who sins or how it would be God behind it if it were 'meant unto good'?

I agree with your observation, but would like your biblical wordsmithing of your understandings to this intricate point of life.

Thanks...


Another little morsel for consideration:

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.


And one more for now:

Genesis 20:6
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.


Another sound bite is:

Jude 24,25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.


Go whereever you see scripture suggesting.... This mystery can be seen all throughout the word, for God is an active God, so for me a good point I like is:


Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.


Hope this clarifies the question for you to offer a response....:)


Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....


So which post was the freewill/repentance/salvation thing you saw that you were seeing us talk about?


You won't find it from me.... then you went on to declare what my real intent behind the thread is and the rest is now history...

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:07 PM
Amazing isn't it? Here we read how sin is a "necessary part of growing in grace?" Imagine the silliness of Paul trying to stop folks from growing in this grace when he told folks to "STOP SINNING". How can this be seen as anything other than simply "excusing sin?"

Why does God permit sin to exist in Christians? Christ has given us the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts to help us, and guide us in this life, and yet we still have a tendency, sometimes even a desire to have our own way, and sin against God...why? Yes Scripture is replete with admonitions to put away all sin, and to walk in the Spirit, that we sin not, yet we still tend to walk by the flesh often and commit sin...again, why?

Your argument sounds a little like the one Paul encounters asking, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" The answer Paul gives to this rhertorical question is, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" In his answer Paul shows us that the sanctification of the believer rests on the same foundation as his justification, e.g. union with Christ! When we are actually one with Christ we can no more be an ally of sin (live any longer therein) than Christ can, for we are truly one with Him. Does that mean we can never sin again? The answer of course is no...but why?

When we are one with Christ we are confessing that we are identified with Him, in His death, burial and resurrection. We are dead to our old life; it is buried, and we rise to walk as new creatures with new hearts, new principles, and a new life. Does that mean that we are no longer able, ready and sometimes even willing to participate in sin?

What assurance do we have from God that though we sin, we are not condemned?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrigheousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we find the answer to the OP, "Does God change your mind"? Did God change David's mind when he confessed he had sinned against God? Of course God did! God convicted David in the same way He convicts all of His elect who fall into various sins against the Almighty. David's sin was pardoned, paid for, put away, and David received chastisement, as a son of God. When we sin we do not fear condemnation and death on account of it, nor do we have fellowship with sin, nor will we permit sin to reign over us any longer. That does not mean, that like David, we will never sin again. It means we rest assured in the grace God has bestowed upon us, knowing that when we are weak, and fall into various trial and temptation we can cry out to God to deliver us from evil, because we know the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The words of James help us to understand a little better why God providentially allows His elect to fall into various temptations.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

We are providentially brought under these trials by the hand of our heavenly Father, Who will work all things together for our good. If we receive no chastening from the Lord we are counted not as sons, but as bastards, for whom the Lord loves He chastens. If we fall into no trial or temptations there is no reason for chanstening, which serves to yield righteousness in those who receive it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Faith must be tried, for it can only be proved by trial. If our faith is not tried through manifold temptation how can we know if our faith be counterfeit? Trials are given us that we learn to depend on the Lord, and not on the flesh. Trials not only reveal our faith, but they work, bring out and encourage patience (Ro 5:3). God providentially tries His children so that we might possess the fruit of the Spirit.

Does God change my mind? Praise and glory be to God, indeed He does, and may He never cease to bring my mind into captivity that I may always know what is His good and perfect will.

Excellent question! I pray that many here reflect deeply upon the answer to this God honoring post.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:14 PM
Well I did and don't see it the same as you.... This is your entry point and my posting history to your post....
















So which post was the freewill/repentance/salvation thing you saw that you were seeing us talk about?


You won't find it from me.... then you went on to declare what my real intent behind the thread is and the rest is now history...
You left out Roger's post that you replied to. Take a gander and then perhaps you can see it? ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:29 PM
Why does God permit sin to exist in Christians? Christ has given us the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts to help us, and guide us in this life, and yet we still have a tendency, sometimes even a desire to have our own way, and sin against God...why? Yes Scripture is replete with admonitions to put away all sin, and to walk in the Spirit, that we sin not, yet we still tend to walk by the flesh often and commit sin...again, why? A number of reasons I would think. Some aren't for real. Some are simply weak yet in the flesh. Some are outright rebellious and do so willfully and knowing.


Your argument sounds a little like the one Paul encounters asking, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"Huh?


The answer Paul gives to this rhertorical question is, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" In his answer Paul shows us that the sanctification of the believer rests on the same foundation as his justification, e.g. union with Christ! When we are actually one with Christ we can no more be an ally of sin (live any longer therein) than Christ can, for we are truly one with Him. Does that mean we can never sin again? The answer of course is no...but why?

When we are one with Christ we are confessing that we are identified with Him, in His death, burial and resurrection. We are dead to our old life; it is buried, and we rise to walk as new creatures with new hearts, new principles, and a new life. Does that mean that we are no longer able, ready and sometimes even willing to participate in sin?

What assurance do we have from God that though we sin, we are not condemned?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrigheousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we find the answer to the OP, "Does God change your mind"? Did God change David's mind when he confessed he had sinned against God? Of course God did! God convicted David in the same way He convicts all of His elect who fall into various sins against the Almighty. David's sin was pardoned, paid for, put away, and David received chastisement, as a son of God. When we sin we do not fear condemnation and death on account of it, nor do we have fellowship with sin, nor will we permit sin to reign over us any longer. That does not mean, that like David, we will never sin again. It means we rest assured in the grace God has bestowed upon us, knowing that when we are weak, and fall into various trial and temptation we can cry out to God to deliver us from evil, because we know the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The words of James help us to understand a little better why God providentially allows His elect to fall into various temptations.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

We are providentially brought under these trials by the hand of our heavenly Father, Who will work all things together for our good. If we receive no chastening from the Lord we are counted not as sons, but as bastards, for whom the Lord loves He chastens. If we fall into no trial or temptations there is no reason for chanstening, which serves to yield righteousness in those who receive it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Faith must be tried, for it can only be proved by trial. If our faith is not tried through manifold temptation how can we know if our faith be counterfeit? Trials are given us that we learn to depend on the Lord, and not on the flesh. Trials not only reveal our faith, but they work, bring out and encourage patience (Ro 5:3). God providentially tries His children so that we might possess the fruit of the Spirit.

Does God change my mind? Praise and glory be to God, indeed He does, and may He never cease to bring my mind into captivity that I may always know what is His good and perfect will.

Excellent question! I pray that many here reflect deeply upon the answer to this God honoring post.

Many Blessings,
RWBut then again... here you go making "sin" itself a stepping stone to our walk with God! You are in truth saying we MUST sin and should be happy when we do because that honors God and helps us grow! And as I stated before... if this is the case then would his telling them to "become sober minded as you ought and stop sinning" in fact be hampering that growth he tells them they are lacking? Why not instead of "God forbid" would Paul not then gone on to tell them that SURE ENOUGH! It helps your growth!

Then the thing about being dead in our sin and alive to Christ... I'll do a separate post on that in another thread on that and get you the link.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:53 PM
Here is the new thread Roger.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1417458#post1417458

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:34 PM
A number of reasons I would think. Some aren't for real. Some are simply weak yet in the flesh. Some are outright rebellious and do so willfully and knowing.
Huh?
But then again... here you go making "sin" itself a stepping stone to our walk with God! You are in truth saying we MUST sin and should be happy when we do because that honors God and helps us grow! And as I stated before... if this is the case then would his telling them to "become sober minded as you ought and stop sinning" in fact be hampering that growth he tells them they are lacking? Why not instead of "God forbid" would Paul not then gone on to tell them that SURE ENOUGH! It helps your growth!

Then the thing about being dead in our sin and alive to Christ... I'll do a separate post on that in another thread on that and get you the link.

I can't imagine what you are reading into my posts that you would draw such a conclusion? Never have I said we MUST sin and should be happy about it because it helps us grow. It is not that we MUST sin, but that we DO, and WILL continue to commit sin as long as we are in this life in the flesh. And God in His Sovereign providence uses our fleshly desires to show us His grace abounding when we are delivered from such manifold temptations. The only way that we will be free from sin is to walk perfectly in the Spirit...is that possible while being in the flesh? It wasn't possible for Paul, though he strived, as we ought to strive to keep ourselves from sinning. How do we overcome sin when we are tempted? Is it through myself, which is of the flesh, therefore by the law, or is it through the power of He Who is in me?

If my dependence is of myself I am serving the law of sin through the flesh. But we want to be found not having our own righteousness, which is of the law, but righteousness that comes through the faith OF Christ, which is of God by faith. Therefore the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, for if I persevere by self or flesh righteousness (the law) I frustrate the grace of God, and Christ would have died in vain.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

As the Lord carries us through, providing a way of escape in every trial and temptation we most certainly do grow in our walk with God. Learning, by the grace of God that apart from Him abiding in me, and I in Him, I can do nothing.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

In the following passage Paul exhorts us to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Christ. Then he says "let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body". Paul is not saying that we can, while living in the flesh be free of sin altogether, he is telling us that we can keep sin from reigning in our mortal body. What he means is that if we are in Christ then we can keep sin from ruling in our lives. Sin remains in the believer, but it no longer reigns as our master. Sin is always a struggle; it tries us and troubles us, but does not dominate or control us. We do not look for an excuse to sin, but we look to the Lord for strength to avoid it, and learn from it.

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:57 PM
I can't imagine what you are reading into my posts that you would draw such a conclusion? Never have I said we MUST sin and should be happy about it because it helps us grow. It is not that we MUST sin, but that we DO, and WILL continue to commit sin as long as we are in this life in the flesh. What if a person doesn't? ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:12 PM
What if a person doesn't? ;)

Doesn't what? Sin?

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:22 PM
Doesn't what? Sin?
Sure... what if a person comes to a point of maturity in Christ (I'd figure much later in life but still) where they actually don't sin? No where does the Bible say that this isn't possible nor does the Bible even say "stop sinning even though you are going to anyway". So if a person gets to a point where they truly are walking in love (agape)... what?

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:49 PM
Sure... what if a person comes to a point of maturity in Christ (I'd figure much later in life but still) where they actually don't sin? No where does the Bible say that this isn't possible nor does the Bible even say "stop sinning even though you are going to anyway". So if a person gets to a point where they truly are walking in love (agape)... what?

Other than Christ as He walked in human flesh, can you show me one single example in Scripture of one human who matured to a point where he no longer sinned?

John is not merely speaking of past sins, or sins prior to salvation, for he speaks in the present tense which is why he further says, "I am writing these things to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Just." Advocate means the intercessor with the Father. To say we do not sin means we deceive ourselves, but when we confess ours sins He forgives us. I cannot think of a single passage where humans, still in the flesh no longer sin. What Paul repeatedly tells us (Ro 6) is that when we are in Christ sin will no longer be our master, sin will not control us, and the reason it will not is because we are being kept by the power of God unto salvation.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:50 PM
Sure... what if a person comes to a point of maturity in Christ (I'd figure much later in life but still) where they actually don't sin? No where does the Bible say that this isn't possible nor does the Bible even say "stop sinning even though you are going to anyway". So if a person gets to a point where they truly are walking in love (agape)... what?

This is a topic of another thread, but although the notion is desirable, and even honorable, no one is perfect except One... No one is sinless, except One, and if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.


And if being sinless this side of heaven were true, why do you say that this takes place later in life...? Why then couldn't one stop sinning here and now and never sin again this side of heaven?


And then this agape love you speak of....who has this love - love that is always pure, what makes them discern they have this that makes them not sin again? And who judges what sin is and is not? This is all self-determination in self-evaluation and how can one be poor in spirit if they are determining that they are sinless before God by their works [of saying what is sin and what is not]?

This is good speech, and sounds plausible and even desirable, but as with every man - less One, sin is within us and Lord willing diminishing over your proverbial timeline.... but cannot and will not be vanquished entirely until we are face-to-face with the Risen Christ.

Take this to another thread if you like, but it's Christ's imputed sinlessness that we cling to.... in humility, meekness, dependence, lowliness... and gratefulness....

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:56 PM
This is a topic of another thread, but although the notion is desirable, and even honorable, no one is perfect except One... No one is sinless, except One, and if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.


And if being sinless this side of heaven were true, why do you say that this takes place later in life...? Why then couldn't one stop sinning here and now and never sin again this side of heaven?


And then this agape love you speak of....who has this love - love that is always pure, what makes them discern they have this that makes them not sin again? And who judges what sin is and is not? This is all self-determination in self-evaluation and how can one be poor in spirit if they are determining that they are sinless before God by their works [of saying what is sin and what is not]?

This is good speech, and sounds plausible and even desirable, but as with every man - less One, sin is within us and Lord willing diminishing over your proverbial timeline.... but cannot and will not be vanquished entirely until we are face-to-face with the Risen Christ.

Take this to another thread if you like, but it's Christ's imputed sinlessness that we cling to.... in humility, meekness, dependence, lowliness... and gratefulness....

I apologize for leading us away from the OP. This last statement brings us back to the question, "Does God change our minds?" The imputation of His righteousness is how He has changed, and continues to change my mind as I walk through this sin cursed world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:58 PM
I apologize for leading us away from the OP. This last statement brings us back to the question, "Does God change our minds?" The imputation of His righteousness is how He has changed, and continues to change my mind as I walk through this sin cursed world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Amen !

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:59 PM
Sure... what if a person comes to a point of maturity in Christ (I'd figure much later in life but still) where they actually don't sin? No where does the Bible say that this isn't possible nor does the Bible even say "stop sinning even though you are going to anyway". So if a person gets to a point where they truly are walking in love (agape)... what?

Such a concept is beyond egalitarianism.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:03 PM
The imputation of His righteousness is how He has changed, and continues to change my mind as I walk through this sin cursed world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Care to elaborate how this "imputation" works? :cool:

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:08 PM
Such a concept is beyond egalitarianism.
Of that I have no doubt.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:22 PM
Such a concept is beyond egalitarianism.


Of that I have no doubt.


:rofl: Me too...... In fact I was just saying this same thing yesterday to my wife....

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:23 PM
....... it's Christ's imputed sinlessness that we cling to....

Curious to see how you and Roger explain this "imputed sinlessness" in relation to anthropology, hamartiology and Christology to come up with such a soteriology.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:27 PM
Other than Christ as He walked in human flesh, can you show me one single example in Scripture of one human who matured to a point where he no longer sinned?

John is not merely speaking of past sins, or sins prior to salvation, for he speaks in the present tense which is why he further says, "I am writing these things to you that you may not be sinning. And if anyone should be sinning, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Just." Advocate means the intercessor with the Father. To say we do not sin means we deceive ourselves, but when we confess ours sins He forgives us. I cannot think of a single passage where humans, still in the flesh no longer sin. What Paul repeatedly tells us (Ro 6) is that when we are in Christ sin will no longer be our master, sin will not control us, and the reason it will not is because we are being kept by the power of God unto salvation.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Many Blessings,
RWSeveral things... John said I tell you this so you don't sin. Now I gotta figure John didn't miswrite that. IF you do... you have an advocate. Like I said... nothing in that passage says if you don't keep on sinning then you are a liar. It says if you say you have no sin (all men do and it was being taught differently with Nicolatianism) then you are a liar. All men have sinned. Once we've been cleaned from ALL unrighteousness... are we not free of sin? ALL sin?

Now... as to the passage in Peter. Being under the weight of temptation in no way implies that you have to give into that temptation thus sinning. Matter of fact... God always supplies us a way out. So it is how we react to temptation that determines whether we sin or not eh? Being tempted is not falling into sin. Temptation comes... that's you can bank on. Tried in fire doesn't mean that you are sinning either. So not quite sure what your point is with posting those passages. :)

As to a passage... there is nothing such as that because the letters written by the Apostles were written to the church or individuals. In those letters they were told to stop sinning. But the letters weren't detailed biographies of a person such as we have in the Old Testament. So what we go by is what those guys exhorted the church. What they say is... stop sinning. Right?

I mean in keeping with the original post and changing of the mind. You say God changes your mind... why then would God not change your mind about the sin you commit since God doesn't want nor desire for you to sin? If it was a given... then you should be relatively sin free I'd think. Make sense?

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:29 PM
This is a topic of another thread, but although the notion is desirable, and even honorable, no one is perfect except One... No one is sinless, except One, and if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.


And if being sinless this side of heaven were true, why do you say that this takes place later in life...? Why then couldn't one stop sinning here and now and never sin again this side of heaven?


And then this agape love you speak of....who has this love - love that is always pure, what makes them discern they have this that makes them not sin again? And who judges what sin is and is not? This is all self-determination in self-evaluation and how can one be poor in spirit if they are determining that they are sinless before God by their works [of saying what is sin and what is not]?

This is good speech, and sounds plausible and even desirable, but as with every man - less One, sin is within us and Lord willing diminishing over your proverbial timeline.... but cannot and will not be vanquished entirely until we are face-to-face with the Risen Christ.

Take this to another thread if you like, but it's Christ's imputed sinlessness that we cling to.... in humility, meekness, dependence, lowliness... and gratefulness....Oh I think I brought it around to the original topic actually. ;) I did start another thread though... so you guys can continue the issue of sin in there with me if you like. :)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:29 PM
Curious to see how you and Roger explain this "imputed sinlessness" in relation to anthropology, hamartiology and Christology to come up with such a soteriology.


I pass on all the 'ologies'.... Not where I want this thread to go....

Thanks.

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:31 PM
:rofl: Me too...... In fact I was just saying this same thing yesterday to my wife....
You've had that same conversation with yours too? :lol:

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:31 PM
Curious to see how you and Roger explain this "imputed sinlessness" in relation to anthropology, hamartiology and Christology to come up with such a soteriology.
alogy what? :lol:

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:32 PM
I pass on all the 'ologies'.... Not where I want this thread to go....

Thanks.
Shoot... I'm still trying to figure out what all it meant! ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:39 PM
Shoot... I'm still trying to figure out what all it meant! ;)










Note to Post: POST #91.... PP and RbG finally understand each other and are in agreement to the current ologies rabbit trail....

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:49 PM
Note to Post: POST #91.... PP and RbG finally understand each other and are in agreement to the current ologies rabbit trail....
Yeah... but did you ever figure out what it meant? That's the big question! :lol:

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:50 PM
Note to Post: POST #91.... PP and RbG finally understand each other and are in agreement to the current ologies rabbit trail.... [/SIZE]

If you don't know, its a "rabbit trail"....?? That's just sad.

In my life I have seen many a men who could only speak what was written and keep repeating it without ever being able to explain themselves. Some of us just don't accept things said without question. ;)

Anthropology, human nature.
Hamartiology, nature of sin
Christology, person and work of
Soteriology, study of salvation


Not where I want this thread to go....
Thy will be done.:P

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:31 PM
If you don't know, its a "rabbit trail"....?? That's just sad.

In my life I have seen many a men who could only speak what was written and keep repeating it without ever being able to explain themselves. Some of us just don't accept things said without question. ;)

Anthropology, human nature.
Hamartiology, nature of sin
Christology, person and work of
Soteriology, study of salvation


Thy will be done.:P

I feel really bad that you have had bad experiences with men and learning's, but my statements deal with the topic at hand.... 'Does God change your mind ?'

Teke, you always come across as someone who throws around $3 words to show what you know and really, 50cent words are more than enough to me to make a point...


So I have deviated from this topic many times already and to date, what has been the fruit from the other rabbit trails I and other's have taken? Less than what could have been IMO.


So if you wouldn't mind, it's best we get back on track and that we do so with language that is clear and easy to digest and understand by all....

Thanks for understanding....

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:07 PM
I feel really bad that you have had bad experiences with men and learning's.....

Why? Did I say that was a bad thing?


Teke, you always come across as someone who throws around $3 words to show what you know and really, 50cent words are more than enough to me to make a point...

I'm not here to make a point, but explore what has been proposed in relation to Christology. If that is irrelevant to you, and you just want an agreement with you or not, then why not just do a poll.


So if you wouldn't mind, it's best we get back on track and that we do so with language that is clear and easy to digest and understand by all....

Thanks for understanding....

Sure......how about some clear language.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:20 PM
Why? Did I say that was a bad thing?


I'm not here to make a point, but explore what has been proposed in relation to Christology. If that is irrelevant to you, and you just want an agreement with you or not, then why not just do a poll.


Sure......how about some clear language.

Ouch .

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:47 PM
Ouch .

Forgive me. :hug:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:51 PM
Forgive me. :hug:

Not a problem

:hug:

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:51 PM
Shoot... I'm still trying to figure out what all it meant! ;)

I believe it made my point.

Jam 1:19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Teke
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:57 PM
Not a problem

:hug:

Great, should be no problem to reconcile any differences on this matter either then. There is surely more than an either/ or.:)

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:06 PM
Great, should be no problem to reconcile any differences on this matter either then. There is surely more than an either/ or.:)


Did you miss Toolman's & 9Marksfan's "Both/and" posts? ;)

Teke
Oct 23rd 2007, 12:00 AM
Did you miss Toolman's & 9Marksfan's "Both/and" posts? ;)

Hey Pleroo, yeah, I was reading along and it was getting interesting. I liked the position you posed. I read Toolman and 9Marksfan posts.



Posted by Pleroo

And how does one keep from falling into a fatalistic life-view which could lead to apathy, while still fully acknowledging God's sovereignty? It almost seems like one has to be able to see both sides of the coin at the same time - one side is to take responsibility for utilizing the means of grace that God has provided us with, while the other side is to acknowledge that it is only God's working within us which causes us to desire that grace.

Good idea to get back to this. :)
I also don't think any of us disagree with PP on the definition of repentance (change of mind). So maybe we can get some more introspection together.;)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:06 AM
Did you miss Toolman's & 9Marksfan's "Both/and" posts? ;)


Would you say that they both dance around Proverbs 16:9?


Man plans his way | God Directs mans path

........................and....................... ......

Pleroo
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:26 AM
Would you say that they both dance around Proverbs 16:9?


Man plans his way | God Directs mans path

........................and....................... ......

If you're asking me, no, I don't see them dancing ... (but I think I'd like to. Jitterbug, please, boys. :lol: )

I see them affirming God's Word, including Proverbs 16:9. Do you see them dancing?

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:47 AM
Does God change “your” mind?

Only if i want him to.
A light came into the world....BUT people remained unrepentant-didnt change their mind,they decided to remain in the darkness. (even though God wanted all of them to repent)
I saw him and that changed my mind.
Love is a two way street and we must love the lord with everything, we must play our part and enter into the relaitionship--true worship in Spirit and in truth.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 02:20 AM
If you're asking me, no, I don't see them dancing ... (but I think I'd like to. Jitterbug, please, boys. :lol: )

I see them affirming God's Word, including Proverbs 16:9. Do you see them dancing?

I agree, and sorry...I used an old phrase which means touching in and around the principles...to dance verses feet planted.... and jitterbug, why Pleroo, I'm even not that old.... now if you said disco....:rofl:

Teke
Oct 23rd 2007, 12:45 PM
Would you say that they both dance around Proverbs 16:9?


Man plans his way | God Directs mans path

........................and....................... ......

Proverbs 16 is a good example of a synergy. Verse 1 gives an understanding for verse 9. In verse 1 we read, "The preparations of the heart in man, And the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord". The ellipsis of the verb in the first clause must be supplied (as it is in the second clause). So it would be something like this, "To man [pertain] the plans of his heart; but from Jehovah [comes] the final decree." Comparing with verse 9, could well be rendered "the last word".

This Proverb further illustrates that if mans heart isn't right in whatever he does (which includes repentance/change of mind) God doesn't bless him in it.

We have plenty of scripture illustrations of this. Examples like Josephs brothers, Pharoahs daughter, Saul, Jesse, Syrians, Zacchaeus etc.
A modern term would be "God happens".

Notice in verse one, the Hebrew word for "tongue" is the same word in verse 4 for "Himself". The silent and secret plans of mans heart are contrasted with the disclosures of the tongue, which come from Jehovah. "Himself" verse 4 = His decree or His own end.

Proverbs 16:1 -19:19 is on the life and action of the pious and ungodly with reference to God.
As Toolman pointed out, there is an internal and external aspect working.:)
We can also apply this to ecclesiology (work and mission of the church) in relation to Christ (Christology, work and person), as He is ever calling for repentance which results from right worship.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 04:12 PM
Proverbs 16 is a good example of a synergy.

//

I'd like to suggest an alternative way to see this instead of synergy...

Let me start with another verse or two and see if this helps position my thoughts:

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 20:24
Man's steps are ordained by the LORD,
How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.


It may appear that Proverbs 16: 9 suggests synergism, but other scriptures point to a monergistic activity. Now we know that there are no contradictions within scripture.

Could it be possible that in our own thoughts and ways - somehow could they be under the control and guidance of our Lord?

Something to ponder.

Pleroo
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:05 PM
I agree, and sorry...I used an old phrase which means touching in and around the principles...to dance verses feet planted.... and jitterbug, why Pleroo, I'm even not that old.... now if you said disco....:rofl:

:lol: I knew what you meant, RbG. But I've seen TM's profile pic and 9Markfan's burly looking avatar and the image of the 2 of them dancing the jitterbug together just refused to get out of my brain. :B :lol:

Teke
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:57 PM
I'd like to suggest an alternative way to see this instead of synergy...

Let me start with another verse or two and see if this helps position my thoughts:

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 20:24
Man's steps are ordained by the LORD,
How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.


It may appear that Proverbs 16: 9 suggests synergism, but other scriptures point to a monergistic activity. Now we know that there are no contradictions within scripture.

Could it be possible that in our own thoughts and ways - somehow could they be under the control and guidance of our Lord?

Something to ponder.

Let's dissect some more and see what the scriptures are getting at. But before I get into, the Hebrew Massoretic text English translation, again, let me ask you another question to clarify your thoughts. When you say "mind", do you mean the literal brain we have with all it's sensory perceptions of the material/elements, or the mind of the heart?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:06 PM
Let's dissect some more and see what the scriptures are getting at. But before I get into, the Hebrew Massoretic text English translation, again, let me ask you another question to clarify your thoughts. When you say "mind", do you mean the literal brain we have with all it's sensory perceptions of the material/elements, or the mind of the heart?


Simply, where we think, plan and do originates.... Some call it mind, some call it heart, some call it bowls, but just don't call me late for supper :pp

brakelite
Oct 27th 2007, 04:14 AM
Does God change “your” mind?

The question may seem easy at first, but the question begs more than a yes or no answer… Does God work in the hearts and minds of men?

And of course... scripture behind your reply would be greatly appreciated....

Mankind's mind is a corporate mess. Except God make the changes no-one would be fit for the kingdom of heaven. If we enter that place as we are we will be taking all the hate, jealousies, pride, selfishness, covetousness,and ambition with us and God will end up having to put down another rebellion.

But He has promised that affliction will not arise a second time. (Nahum 1:9)
The original Eden will be restored and it will never again be spoiled by sin and disobedience. So a change of mind is essential, not just for our benefit, but to preserve the integrity and happiness of our future home.

The Bible is clear that this is a process that takes a lifetime. It is called sanctification, and sanctification is an essential part of the salvation process.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


What is this image God speaks of here? Is it looks? Of course not, therefore it can only be in character. A character once again restored in man as it was in the beginning before being marred by disobedience. So not only Eden restored but the inhabitants also. That is why Jesus travelled over the same ground that the first Adam took, only this time that ground was taken in victory, and that victory is promised to all who claim by faith the gift of righteousness offered us through the life and death of our Redeemer.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


How can this come about?

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that this is a GIFT:pp Victory isn't something we need to do for ourselves. Bad habits and sin need no longer be a part of our lives if we simply sit back and thank God for the victory!
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Faith is believing God's promises, accepting that what He says is true.

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And then live according to our faith.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


And from a race of rebellious, selfish, sinful, corrupt reprobates God by His grace and through the power of His own Spirit shall build a church that He Himself may inhabit, and that Jesus, when He comes, will find without blemish and without spot.:pp:pp:pp

ChristianKid37
Oct 27th 2007, 11:08 AM
It seems to me its a little of both.. I think God works on the wills and minds of men, but I also think men need to choose the Lord willingly.

Lord knows, how many times he pleaded with the Israelites in the old testament to turn away from sin and follow him. that is why he sent the prophets to tell them the truth, hoping that they would listen to reason and turn back to God.

My problem with it being only God who changes peoples minds draws the inevitable conclusion that He alone picks and chooses who gets saved and who doesnt. (I know thats kind of off topic and may be better off in another thread, but I still think it applies to what we are discussing.) I dont understand why God would change only the minds of some and not others where scripture says he desires all to come to repentance (2 peter 3:9)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 28th 2007, 02:21 AM
It seems to me its a little of both.. I think God works on the wills and minds of men, but I also think men need to choose the Lord willingly.

Lord knows, how many times he pleaded with the Israelites in the old testament to turn away from sin and follow him. that is why he sent the prophets to tell them the truth, hoping that they would listen to reason and turn back to God.

My problem with it being only God who changes peoples minds draws the inevitable conclusion that He alone picks and chooses who gets saved and who doesnt. (I know thats kind of off topic and may be better off in another thread, but I still think it applies to what we are discussing.) I dont understand why God would change only the minds of some and not others where scripture says he desires all to come to repentance (2 peter 3:9)

CK37,

Hi and welcome to the boards....

So in personalizing your response, does God change your mind and if so, how so?

brakelite
Oct 28th 2007, 03:49 AM
I can see upon reflection how some may misconstrue my previous post and use it to support their Calvinist leanings.Let me lay that to rest now. Man has an essential part to play in the salvation process. It is called cooperation.
As has been said however, this subject belongs to another thread.

ChristianKid37
Oct 28th 2007, 05:11 AM
Aye, I believe in cooperation with the Holy Spirit of God for the salvation of souls.

I was saved when I was 6 years old. I was playing in my room and suddenly the Spirit of God came upon me and I knew I had to be saved, but I did not know how. I went to my mother and asked her how to be saved and she led me through repentance and belief in Christ. Ever since then I have tried to live my life for the Lord.

Now did the Lord change my mind? Yes I believe he did. Did God force me to be saved and force me to follow him ? No not at all. It still is a process to choose whether we obey God or not and I believe our cooperation with the spirit of God is nessecary to "walk out our salvation with fear and trembling."

So do I believe God helps change our minds. Yes absolutly. Do I believe he forces us to believe a certain way like a robot? no I do not.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 28th 2007, 11:09 AM
Let me ask a practical question about prayer life to bring the OP question into focus.

Do you pray and ask God for safety when you take a trip? Do you pray and ask God for ‘help’ in a situation, like finding a new job, or buying a new home, or making work go smoothly? Or did you ever pray for the doctor’s hand, that God would guide him during the operation and that God would use him to heal you or another’s body?

And let me ask if you pray for a loved one, that they would become a Christian, that God would work in their heart and open their eyes to see the calling of God in salvation?

Now back to the OP question, does God change ‘your’ mind?


If He does change you or someone in your path in just one thing, isn’t this God’s directing the path? Proverbs 16:9

For God's Glory...