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CanuckMedic
Oct 20th 2007, 06:24 AM
This is the first sermon I have ever heard on Hell. It cut me to the core. Please, I pray you'll watch the whole thing. It will give you a real fear for your friends, family, coworkers...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5918917853332429268&q=%22tim+conway%22+hell&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Soj
Oct 20th 2007, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the link, it was a very powerful message, so much that at one point a woman shouted out and left, making a scene. :(

CanuckMedic
Oct 20th 2007, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the link, it was a very powerful message, so much that at one point a woman shouted out and left, making a scene. :(

Wow was that in the video or were you actually there?

I must admit I wanted to stop watching about 1/3rd of the way through.

amazzin
Oct 20th 2007, 05:38 PM
This is the first sermon I have ever heard on Hell. It cut me to the core. Please, I pray you'll watch the whole thing. It will give you a real fear for your friends, family, coworkers...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5918917853332429268&q=%22tim+conway%22+hell&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

CanuckMedic
Were you /are you a medic in the Canadian armed forces?

CanuckMedic
Oct 20th 2007, 08:58 PM
CanuckMedic
Were you /are you a medic in the Canadian armed forces?

No I'm a paramedic in western Canada.

Mograce2U
Oct 20th 2007, 10:03 PM
That was one of the better messages I have heard on hell. The last 9 minutes when he discusses how hell glorifies God was especially good. I had not thought of it in that way before.

ravi4u2
Oct 20th 2007, 10:17 PM
He says at one point, "there are many in hell today because good works was not found in them..." This I find had to swallow.

Mograce2U
Oct 20th 2007, 10:22 PM
He says at one point, "there are many in hell today because good works was not found in them..." This I find had to swallow.I heard that too, but I think his context was works born of faith which show that faith worthy of repentance - fruit.

amazzin
Oct 20th 2007, 10:58 PM
Faith produces good works in us. Good works does not save us but it is a by-product of faith. If all we do is sit on our butts al day and say we have faith, then I agree with that statement in the context that we should be about doing God's work

Soj
Oct 20th 2007, 11:57 PM
He says at one point, "there are many in hell today because good works was not found in them..." This I find had to swallow.You will always find at least one fault when a man speaks non stop for nearly 1 hour! :rofl:But seriously, in the context of his preaching I don't think he was teaching works for salvation.

amazzin
Oct 21st 2007, 12:38 AM
No I'm a paramedic in western Canada.

I'm in the lower mainland.

ravi4u2
Oct 21st 2007, 02:23 AM
Faith produces good works in us. Good works does not save us but it is a by-product of faith. If all we do is sit on our butts al day and say we have faith, then I agree with that statement in the context that we should be about doing God's work
Do you do good works because 'you have to', 'you want to', it is 'expected of you' or because 'you are forced to'? Can 'good works' in context be done while 'we do sit on our buts all day', or do we have to physically work to do good works?

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 02:28 AM
Do you do good works because 'you have to', 'you want to', it is 'expected of you' or because 'you are forced to'? Can 'good works' in context be done while 'we do sit on our buts all day', or do we have to physically work to do good works?
You want to and you have to because it is expected of you. That work for you? The answer to your second question... no. Not likely.

ravi4u2
Oct 21st 2007, 02:35 AM
You will always find at least one fault when a man speaks non stop for nearly 1 hour! :rofl:But seriously, in the context of his preaching I don't think he was teaching works for salvation.
Yes...it's all in the context isn't it???:lol:

ravi4u2
Oct 21st 2007, 02:37 AM
You want to and you have to because it is expected of you. That work for you? The answer to your second question... no. Not likely.I like it...:lol:

Mograce2U
Oct 21st 2007, 03:42 AM
Oh, I don't know - we be sittin' on our butts while we are posting here...

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 04:27 AM
Oh, I don't know - we be sittin' our butts while we are posting here...
Ha... I'm laying down! ;)

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 21st 2007, 04:44 AM
Thank you SO MUCH for this link.

I think this minister was very brave for preaching on a topic that is a real bone of contention for many.
Not many churches like to tackle this issue...but he did so in a very compassionate way.

BTW, how do you know that some lady made a scene?

ProjectPeter
Oct 21st 2007, 01:57 PM
Thank you SO MUCH for this link.

I think this minister was very brave for preaching on a topic that is a real bone of contention for many.
Not many churches like to tackle this issue...but he did so in a very compassionate way.

BTW, how do you know that some lady made a scene?
You could hear it in the background. About midway through... maybe a tad beyond that point... there was a time where you saw him hesitate and pause. If you turn the volume up you can hear it in the background.

Mograce2U
Oct 21st 2007, 06:56 PM
Ha... I'm laying down! ;)But working hard nonetheless!

Semi-tortured
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:01 PM
I have already been having problems with this. I can't shake the fear of hell. The fact that I believe in it is probably a good start. I pray constantly and God is the center of my life. I always try to think of what Jesus would do in every situation. But I still have a crushing fear that when the day comes, He will tell me to depart from Him. I have repented and asked for forgivness for every sin (as I'm sure there are some that I don't even know of and maybe some I still do that I don't know of). I wonder if this fear is healthy or not. The Bible says we are given a spirit of joy and not fear. Where is my joy and why can't I shake the fear? I'm slightly OCD which apparently is known to cause this, but man. Kinda wish I didn't click on the link. I was already scared of hell, this just made me have a panic attack.

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:36 PM
I have already been having problems with this. I can't shake the fear of hell. The fact that I believe in it is probably a good start. I pray constantly and God is the center of my life. I always try to think of what Jesus would do in every situation. But I still have a crushing fear that when the day comes, He will tell me to depart from Him. I have repented and asked for forgivness for every sin (as I'm sure there are some that I don't even know of and maybe some I still do that I don't know of). I wonder if this fear is healthy or not. The Bible says we are given a spirit of joy and not fear. Where is my joy and why can't I shake the fear? I'm slightly OCD which apparently is known to cause this, but man. Kinda wish I didn't click on the link. I was already scared of hell, this just made me have a panic attack.

Semi, I haven't watched the linked video, so I can't speak to it.

Just an observation -- I see so much in your post that says you are focusing on what you must do and be. Speaking from much experience, that's a scary place to go because we are weak and fallen creatures! But Jesus Christ already did everything, Semi and He now lives in you and He is being formed in you (Gal 4:19). You have the power of His Life in you. Focus on Him and He will give you peace.

As far as hell, I was avoiding posting in this thread first, because I'm not willing to spend my time watching the video and so can't comment on it and, second, because I wanted to respect the original poster by not turning this into a debate. But I couldn't find it in my heart to let your concerns go unanswered. So I'll just say, as long as you are fixated on the commonly held belief that God is a being that will subject much of His creation to endless torment, chances are you are going to be emotionally distraught. In my opinion, you'll either need to condition yourself to ignore it to the best of your ability or find some way to find solace in it (?!). Or, you can take the time to study the doctrine of Eternal Torment and, by the Spirit's leading, judge for yourself if this doctrine holds together with the God Who is love that never fails (1 Jn 4:8, 1 Cor 13), Whose mercy never ends (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mercy+endures&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=mercy+endures), and Whose judgments are for the purpose of teaching righteousness (Isa 26:9).

Semi-tortured
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:44 PM
Semi, I haven't watched the linked video, so I can't speak to it.

Just an observation -- I see so much in your post that says you are focusing on what you must do and be. Speaking from much experience, that's a scary place to go because we are weak and fallen creatures! But Jesus Christ already did everything, Semi and He now lives in you and He is being formed in you (Gal 4:19). You have the power of His Life in you. Focus on Him and He will give you peace.

As far as hell, I was avoiding posting in this thread first, because I'm not willing to spend my time watching the video and so can't comment on it and, second, because I wanted to respect the original poster by not turning this into a debate. But I couldn't find it in my heart to let your concerns go unanswered. So I'll just say, as long as you are fixated on the commonly held belief that God is a being that will subject much of His creation to endless torment, chances are you are going to be emotionally distraught. In my opinion, you'll either need to condition yourself to ignore it to the best of your ability or find some way to find solace in it (?!). Or, you can take the time to study the doctrine of Eternal Torment and, by the Spirit's leading, judge for yourself if this doctrine holds together with the God Who is love that never fails (1 Jn 4:8, 1 Cor 13), Whose mercy never ends (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mercy+endures&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=mercy+endures), and Whose judgments are for the purpose of teaching righteousness (Isa 26:9).

Actually, Im not focusing on what I need to do. I know for a fact that I will never be able to DO enough. I know the only way I can get into heaven is by God's grace which he says he will provide if I repent. I just have problems with verses that tend to set such a strict standard of living for a believer that I can never rest. Also, the verse where Jesus says He will tell people to depart because He never knew them scares me. I realize there are people who are obviously false prophets, etc. But that verse doesn't give a specific type of person He's referring to per say. I believe I know Him because I read His word and I try my best to keep His commandments because of the conviction I feel in my heart to do so, but I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way as me and will get turned away.

Its the fact that I know I'm a sinner and I know I deserve hell that frightens me. :pray::cry:

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:07 PM
Actually, Im not focusing on what I need to do. I know for a fact that I will never be able to DO enough. I know the only way I can get into heaven is by God's grace which he says he will provide if I repent. I just have problems with verses that tend to set such a strict standard of living for a believer that I can never rest. Also, the verse where Jesus says He will tell people to depart because He never knew them scares me. I realize there are people who are obviously false prophets, etc. But that verse doesn't give a specific type of person He's referring to per say. I believe I know Him because I read His word and I try my best to keep His commandments because of the conviction I feel in my heart to do so, but I'm sure there are other people that feel the same way as me and will get turned away.

Those two statements above in blue are a contradiction, don't you think?


Its the fact that I know I'm a sinner and I know I deserve hell that frightens me. :pray::cry:



And the Bible says "The wages of sin is hell" (Romans 6:23). Oops, no, that's not right. ;)

Look, God's judgments are just and they are not to be taken lightly. The judgement of God begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet 4:17). That's us! As a child of God, you are going to be disciplined. It isn't fun, nor is it meant to be. It's serious business. But if you know that God's discipline is motivated by love, you will begin to welcome the discipline rather than fearing it.


Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,and chastises every son whom he receives.
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Semi-tortured
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:27 PM
Those two statements above in blue are a contradiction, don't you think?





And the Bible says "The wages of sin is hell" (Romans 6:23). Oops, no, that's not right. ;)

Look, God's judgments are just and they are not to be taken lightly. The judgement of God begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet 4:17). That's us! As a child of God, you are going to be disciplined. It isn't fun, nor is it meant to be. It's serious business. But if you know that God's discipline is motivated by love, you will begin to welcome the discipline rather than fearing it.


Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,and chastises every son whom he receives.
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Yes they are in contradiction, but I hope you know what I meant. I was referring to the fact that I am not focusing on grace by works. Grace is by faith.

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:00 PM
Yes they are in contradiction, but I hope you know what I meant. I was referring to the fact that I am not focusing on grace by works. Grace is by faith.

Semi, I guess I'm not understanding exactly what you're saying.
You seem to me to be saying that

1. you believe that salvation is by grace and isn't based on what you do or don't do, but yet

2. you are still afraid that God is going to send you to a place of eternal torment because you aren't certain you are living up to His standards.


Am I understanding you correctly? If so, these 2 things are in direct conflict with each other and #2 will lead to a boatload of fear (which I know from personal experience). That is what I was addressing. My intent was to bring your attention to the fact that if God's judgments appear frightening to us it's because we are unaware or forgetful of the fact that we are God's children, and His judgments are for our good and motivated by His love for us, always. Jesus Christ died for us and is now living in us and being formed in us. We are daily dying to our sin, through God's judgments, and that can be painful, but it doesn't need to be fearful. But I very likely am not being clear in trying to convey this to you, and I apologize.

mikebr
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:26 PM
Its the fact that I know I'm a sinner and I know I deserve hell that frightens me. :pray::cry:



Where did you get that from? Who told you that?

Soj
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:05 PM
I have already been having problems with this. I can't shake the fear of hell. The fact that I believe in it is probably a good start. I pray constantly and God is the center of my life. I always try to think of what Jesus would do in every situation. But I still have a crushing fear that when the day comes, He will tell me to depart from Him. I have repented and asked for forgivness for every sin (as I'm sure there are some that I don't even know of and maybe some I still do that I don't know of). I wonder if this fear is healthy or not. The Bible says we are given a spirit of joy and not fear. Where is my joy and why can't I shake the fear? I'm slightly OCD which apparently is known to cause this, but man. Kinda wish I didn't click on the link. I was already scared of hell, this just made me have a panic attack.ST, if you have believed that Christ died for YOUR sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead the third day so that YOU could have eternal life then you need not fear hell any longer. The salvation of God is by God's grace through faith in what Jesus did for you on the cross and through his death, burial, and resurrection, YOU are saved from hell because of what Christ did, do you believe this?

I fear hell too, but not for myself because I am saved from it, I fear it for those who have not received the forgiveness of their sins through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The harsh reality of this place called hell is a clear doctrine in the scriptures, and to deny it's existence like some would have you do is not going to make it go away!

Semi-tortured
Oct 22nd 2007, 10:36 PM
ST, if you have believed that Christ died for YOUR sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead the third day so that YOU could have eternal life then you need not fear hell any longer. The salvation of God is by God's grace through faith in what Jesus did for you on the cross and through his death, burial, and resurrection, YOU are saved from hell because of what Christ did, do you believe this?

I fear hell too, but not for myself because I am saved from it, I fear it for those who have not received the forgiveness of their sins through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The harsh reality of this place called hell is a clear doctrine in the scriptures, and to deny it's existence like some would have you do is not going to make it go away!


I realize that, but it talks of people who say He will turn away even though they prophesized in His name. I can't help but wonder if the people he speaks of are many people that we all believe to be men of God yet have something missing. What did these people do to believe they were OK, but never were? What if I'm making their mistake? I also have a slight case of OCD which magnifies it.

It also tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. :o I believe in Jesus and His work on the cross. I believe that many will go to heaven that believed in Him as it IS the only way. But because of all the false teachers we are warned about and people who were so confident they were going to heaven, but didn't, I can't feel completely comfortable. If I had to bet I'd say yes I'm going because I do truly believe in Jesus and his work on the cross as the only reason we are going to heaven. But mere belief isn't enough because even Satan knows Jesus died and rose again. He's not gonna be on the invite list, that's for sure.

third hero
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:03 PM
Both my wife and I are currently listening to this video, and I have only one problem with it.

Why is it that everyone that talks about Hell, lump the Lake and Hades into the same lump? They are not the same. No, and this is why although this video is talking about the horror of hell, there is much more to the story.

Here's what the Bible says about hell.

Luke 16. It is a place for the wicked dead. It is a fiery place, where there is no water, no food, and no place for comfort. It is a place of weeping, bitter darkness, and gnashing of teeth.

The Lake of Fire is the final home of not only the wicked, but also Satan, Hell, Death, the fallen angels, and anything affiliated with sin. It is a place that makes hell look like paradise by comparison. It is the Second death. The eternal death, The final end of the wicked. Whether the inhabitants of that place is forever tormented, like Satan and his crew, or otherwise destroyed, like the wicked, they are forever gone from existence.

I believe that the picture of hell and the final death can be even scarier than what this video wants to present.

From a dream I had, Hell is a terrifying place, much worse than the scariest event that any person has ever experienced. It is worse than the horrors of the concentration camps, worse than the torture chambers of Iraq, worse by many billions of degrees than the worst thing that can happen to a man. According to scripture, this place is a holding cell,for in Revelation 20, the wicked are brought out of hell.

Hell, as horrible and terrifying that just the aura of it was, the Lake of Fire is so much worse! It is beyond human comprehension. It is a place where Hell will be thrown into on Judgment Day. Look again at Revelation 20:13. You will see that Hell is nothing more than the holding cell of the wicked, and it is terrifying! This is the fate of the sinner! It's a fate much worse than death itself. We couldn't do a thing to a person that even comes close to the horror found in hell. And THAT"S JUST THE HOLDING CELL! This, is truly terrifying.

I believe that the doctrine of Hell should be preached, but I believe that it should be taught right. God's justice system is horrible and terrifying (I can't bring into words what the Lord taught me concerning hell all by itself), and it has degrees. If we teach hell in the fashion that it is taught by Lord Jesus, we can finally understand, and clearly see why we should be walking with the Fear of the Lord.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. -Matthew 10:28

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:14 PM
I realize that, but it talks of people who say He will turn away even though they prophesized in His name. I can't help but wonder if the people he speaks of are many people that we all believe to be men of God yet have something missing. What did these people do to believe they were OK, but never were? What if I'm making their mistake? I also have a slight case of OCD which magnifies it.

It also tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. :o I believe in Jesus and His work on the cross. I believe that many will go to heaven that believed in Him as it IS the only way. But because of all the false teachers we are warned about and people who were so confident they were going to heaven, but didn't, I can't feel completely comfortable. If I had to bet I'd say yes I'm going because I do truly believe in Jesus and his work on the cross as the only reason we are going to heaven. But mere belief isn't enough because even Satan knows Jesus died and rose again. He's not gonna be on the invite list, that's for sure.

Semi, perhaps it comes down to whom you are really trusting. If you are counting on yourself to be ___________ enough [fill in the blank with whatever you think you need to be, ie. smart, wise, spiritual] to be absolutely certain you believe the correct things, then you're on shaky ground. But if you rely on the faithfulness of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ, then you can be certain you stand on solid ground.

Pleroo
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:33 PM
Why is it that everyone that talks about Hell, lump the Lake and Hades into the same lump? They are not the same.

Oh, don't stop there! Take a look at the word in the NT that is sometimes (but not always) translated as hell, Hades (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/NewTestamentGreek/grk.cgi?number=86) , which is the equivalent of the OT word sheol (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=07585) , which is translated as hell and death, equally. Wonder why? Or the other word translated as hell: Gehenna (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/NewTestamentGreek/grk.cgi?number=1067) or the valley of Ge Hinnom, a proper name which rightly should have been translated the same as any other proper name, a valley that was a garbage dump. A valley cursed by God in the OT because they burned their children in fire there, something which God says never entered His heart to do.

Jer 7:31 ( & 32:35) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


Definitely, lots to learn by studying these things.

third hero
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:38 PM
Oh, don't stop there! Take a look at the word in the NT that is sometimes (but not always) translated as hell, Hades (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/NewTestamentGreek/grk.cgi?number=86) , which is the equivalent of the OT word sheol (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=07585) , which is translated as hell and death, equally. Wonder why? Or the other word translated as hell: Gehenna (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/NewTestamentGreek/grk.cgi?number=1067) or the valley of Ge Hinnom, a proper name which rightly should have been translated the same as any other proper name, a valley that was a garbage dump. A valley cursed by God in the OT because they burned their children in fire there, something which God says never entered His heart to do.

Jer 7:31 ( & 32:35) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


Definitely, lots to learn by studying these things.

Agreed! We need to understand what the sinner is about to undergo if they do not repent, and also to understand exactly what we are running away from! I do not know about anyone else here, but I for one, do not want to face what I had seen in a dream of mine. If that was hell, and indeed it was, then I never want to find out what it feels like INSIDE that horrible place, nor do I want to find out what it is like to be tossed into the Lake of Fire! That's definitely out of the question!

Pleroo
Oct 23rd 2007, 12:40 AM
Hi Third. :)


...nor do I want to find out what it is like to be tossed into the Lake of Fire! That's definitely out of the question!

The Lake of Fire - still studying that one. Only mentioned in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and equated there with "the second death". You know what I find interesting is that we're not told directly, to my knowledge, that believers will not be in the Lake of Fire. We know for a fact that those who aren't in the Book of the Lamb's Life are thrown into it. But we aren't told, directly, that those who are in the Book, aren't. We're assured, however, that it won't hurt thosewho overcome, and it won't have power over those who had part in the first resurrection. Just something I've been pondering.

I also find it interesting that it's only mentioned in an apocryphal book, full of symbolism. In the past, when I read it, I understood that those symbols stood for spiritual truths and knew better than to think, say, that I was ever going to see Jesus with a physical sword coming out of His mouth. But, somehow, when I would read about the Lake of Fire, my mind always saw a literal, physical, burning fire. Funny how a mind can be conditioned to do that. :hmm:

NightWatchman
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:33 AM
What I find interesting is that we're not told directly, to my knowledge, that believers will not be in the Lake of Fire. We know for a fact that those who aren't in the Book of the Lamb's Life are thrown into it. But we aren't told, directly, that those who are in the Book, aren't.

If you have received God's forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no way He is going to send you to the lake of fire.

Soj
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:08 AM
The Lake of Fire - still studying that one. Only mentioned in the Revelation of Jesus Christ...

I also find it interesting that it's only mentioned in an apocryphal book, full of symbolism.Keep studying, it's also mentioned in Isaiah 66:24, other places indirectly in the old testament, and Jesus preaches about it in Matt 18:8, Matt 25:41, Matt 25:46 - note that these verses in Matthew teach everlasting fire and everlasting punishment, so if you believe what Third Hero says about Hell only being a temporary HOLDING CELL then those verses must be referring to the Lake of Fire which is everlasting!

Btw, the book of Revelation can be taken literally, it's not apocalyptic in the sense of it being purely symbolic and figurative, you wouldn't want to miss out on the blessing of Revelation 1:3!

NightWatchman
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:14 AM
Btw, the book of Revelation can be taken literally, it's not apocalyptic in the sense of it being purely symbolic and figurative, you wouldn't want to miss out on the blessing of Revelation 1:3!

Although there is much symbology in Revelation, there is a lot which is very clear. One clear example is that during the judgments of God, three times the wicked refuse to repent despite their agony. These are found in ch. 9 and ch. 16.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 12:16 PM
Keep studying, it's also mentioned in Isaiah 66:24, other places indirectly in the old testament, and Jesus preaches about it in Matt 18:8, Matt 25:41, Matt 25:46 - note that these verses in Matthew teach everlasting fire and everlasting punishment, so if you believe what Third Hero says about Hell only being a temporary HOLDING CELL then those verses must be referring to the Lake of Fire which is everlasting!

Btw, the book of Revelation can be taken literally, it's not apocalyptic in the sense of it being purely symbolic and figurative, you wouldn't want to miss out on the blessing of Revelation 1:3!
Looks like some interpretative liberty to me, my friend.

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:53 PM
But working hard nonetheless!Always! ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 01:59 PM
Looks like some interpretative liberty to me, my friend.
So ultimately what you guys who are following UR believe is that it is only "sort of terrible" and that we should only "sort of fear" because really... this whole hell thing is just misinterpreted and all that God is going to judge and that whole God's wrath thing is only God being sort of wrathful? Interesting concept and rather obvious why so many folk are embracing that doctrine what with all the feel-goodism that is bouncing around the Christian world now days. But thing is... there is a simple fact. God is going to judge and his wrath is going to show and there will be no mercy shown. Covenant changed at the cross... God didn't. ;)

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 03:36 PM
The Lake of Fire - still studying that one. Only mentioned in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and equated there with "the second death".

I've thought this might also be a reference to the LOF:

Daniel 7:9-10

9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him. [/b]
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 03:51 PM
So ultimately what you guys who are following UR believe is that it is only "sort of terrible" and that we should only "sort of fear" because really... this whole hell thing is just misinterpreted and all that God is going to judge and that whole God's wrath thing is only God being sort of wrathful?

Neither God's wrath nor His judgements have to be eternal to be something to warn men of and to be in fear of.

Did not the prophets warn Israel of God's wrath, even though that wrath was not eternal.

The author of Hebrews states:

For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Discipline, punishment, wrath, vengence and suffering do not have to be eternal to be considered a thing to avoid, be warned of and to fear. That is just a preconcieved, conditioned idea.


Interesting concept and rather obvious why so many folk are embracing that doctrine what with all the feel-goodism that is bouncing around the Christian world now days.

That is just an emotional point meant to somehow put down those who hold that God is powerful enough, wise enough and loving enough to actually be able to succeed at His plan of redemption and that Jesus Christ will actually succeed at what He came to do, to seek and save the lost, and will not fail that for which He came.

And this belief is not some new thing. There have always been those within the Church who have believed that God was actually able to accomplish His purpose and his purpose was the redemption of the world. The names of ancient fathers who believed is long and distinguished (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Clement of Alexandria) so don't pretend or assume this is some "new" thing.

Even Augustine, the former and defender of the doctrine of eternal torment, stated "There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c.29)".

So trying to paint UR as some new thought is bogus. Godly men throughout the Church have believed this very thing. That God is both willing and able to save all men, in due time.


But thing is... there is a simple fact. God is going to judge and his wrath is going to show

This is true. In fact His wrath is already revealed according to Romans 1.


and there will be no mercy shown. Covenant changed at the cross... God didn't. ;)

This is not a fact and is simply an opinion and a single interpretation of the biblical text.

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 04:53 PM
Toolman,
Let's see if I understand your view.

In this life, God saves by grace thru faith and sanctifies the redeemed by the Spirit thru love. Then in the age to come, unredeemed dead men are raised to life to burn in the fires of hell for a time in order to purge them of their sin? And this is to work in that rebellious man repentance, faith and love by wrath? And you see this as the merciful nature of God at work?

In this life, the redeemed who cannot see God, are wooed to faith and the man's will is coverted by the grace and love of God and the man is reconciled to a relationship with his Maker. Yet somehow this grace is not sufficient for those who stubbornly reject it. Those same men however will be brought to the same "faith" as the redeemed but by the wrath of God when they stand before the Holy God in all His glory, howbeit against their wills (the reason they gnash their teeth?).

If this is your hope, then your faith is remarkable! Is this not the god of the iniquisition that the Pope's served? Which only provides a temporal picture of what you claim is the spiritual reality behind hell.

If any find themselves in the fires of hell it is because they have NO hope. An eventual escape from hell is not much of a hope to give them is it? Hell inspires terror in the hearts of those who might consider this their end. And that is to deter them from ending up there - not to give them hope!

(1 Cor 15:19-26 KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. {20} But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. {21} For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. {22} For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. {23} But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. {24} Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. {25} For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. {26} The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Where do you see the unredeemed mentioned in this passage? Is it not in the enemies which are under the feet of Christ? The enemies whose destiny is to be destroyed? Death goes to the lake of fire with them to reside there forever, never to return. Whatever it means to be in this lake, it is a place of no return.

Annihilation makes more sense than this doctrine which purports to give hope to the hopeless. But scripture doesn't support it either.

If God is able to do anything, why not just zap them into faith? Could it be because He works according to His word which reveals His will to us? The plan of God is to redeem men in this life, before death makes that possibility too late.

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 05:05 PM
Neither God's wrath nor His judgements have to be eternal to be something to warn men of and to be in fear of.

Did not the prophets warn Israel of God's wrath, even though that wrath was not eternal.

The author of Hebrews states:

For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Discipline, punishment, wrath, vengence and suffering do not have to be eternal to be considered a thing to avoid, be warned of and to fear. That is just a preconcieved, conditioned idea.Not that preconceived. Scripture uses that "eternal" word often enough in regard to punishment. Sure enough!


That is just an emotional point meant to somehow put down those who hold that God is powerful enough, wise enough and loving enough to actually be able to succeed at His plan of redemption and that Jesus Christ will actually succeed at what He came to do, to seek and save the lost, and will not fail that for which He came.Actually no... it was simply my opinion that I think is played out often on Sunday mornings and daily on the Net and televisions etc. But then why is punishment for eternity looked at as "failure" in your mind?



And this belief is not some new thing. There have always been those within the Church who have believed that God was actually able to accomplish His purpose and his purpose was the redemption of the world. The names of ancient fathers who believed is long and distinguished (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Clement of Alexandria) so don't pretend or assume this is some "new" thing.It isn't new at all. It is pretty much a form of Nicolatianism which has been around even while the Apostle's were putting sandals on their feet. ;)



Even Augustine, the former and defender of the doctrine of eternal torment, stated "There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c.29)".

So trying to paint UR as some new thought is bogus. Godly men throughout the Church have believed this very thing. That God is both willing and able to save all men, in due time.And Augustine said tons of stuff that I would STRONGLY disagree with and that he defends someone... don't care. But in fact... he was speaking more of annihilation... not UR because that was a big matter back in that day. And let me add... I didn't say it was a new thing. You apparently are reading that into what I said. Most UR aren't speaking of annihilation but are speaking of going in and getting out once your term is up and you come to your senses (my nutshell version) and then all go to heaven. Some even go as far as to believe that applies to satan and his as well.



This is true. In fact His wrath is already revealed according to Romans 1.



This is not a fact and is simply an opinion and a single interpretation of the biblical text.So God changes?

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 05:13 PM
Toolman,
Let's see if I understand your view.

In this life, God saves by grace thru faith and sanctifies the redeemed by the Spirit thru love. Then in the age to come, unredeemed dead men are raised to life to burn in the fires of hell for a time in order to purge them of their sin? And this is to work in that rebelious man repentance, faith and love by wrath? And you see this as the merciful nature of God at work?

No, this is not my understanding nor my position.

I could do the same I imagine and casually state:

Mograce2U, Lets see if I understand your view.

You believe that God is either unwilling or unable to save all men. You believe that though Christ specifically stated that He came to seek and save the lost that He is actually incapable of doing just that and will severely fail at what He came to do.

You believe that the sin of Adam is greater than the righteous act of Christ? Though Adam, by a single act of disobedience, was able to plunge mankind into sin and death, Jesus is unable to rescue that same mankind by His death on the cross and His resurrection.

In your opinion where grace does abound sin does much more abound.

See that goes both ways but I personally have never found that type of communication to be effective, positive or beneficial to understanding why another person believes what they believe.


In this life, the redeemed who cannot see God, are wooed to faith and the man's will is coverted by the grace and love of God and the man is reconciled to a relationship with his Maker. Yet somehow this grace is not sufficient for those who stubbornly reject it. Those same men however will be brought to the same "faith" as the redeemed but by the wrath of God when they stand before the Holy God in all His glory, howbeit against their wills (the reason they gnash their teeth?).

All men (including yourself) at one time hate and resist God. All men suffer some consequences for sin committed and experience God's judgements to bring them to faith. The Law always leads to Christ. God doesn't change.


If this is your hope, then your faith is remarkable! Is this not the god of the iniquisition that the Pope's served? Which only provides a temporal picture of what you claim is the spiritual reality behind hell.

I believe your portrayal of God is much closer to the inquisition view of the God. That God is an eternal tormentor who delights in making the unbeliever writhe in pain for His glory.

But, like I said, I see this type of discussion neither beneficial or productive.


If any find themselves in the fires of hell it is because they have NO hope. An eventual escape from hell is not much of a hope to give them is it? Hell inspires terror in the hearts of those who might consider this their end. And that is to deter them from ending up there - not to give them hope!

The only hope for mankind is faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other hope.


(1 Cor 15:19-26 KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. {20} But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. {21} For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. {22} For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. {23} But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. {24} Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. {25} For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. {26} The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Where do you see the unredeemed mentioned in this passage? Is it not in the enemies which are under the feet of Christ? The enemies whose destiny is to be destroyed? Death goes to the lake of fire with them to reside there forever, never to return. Whatever it means to be in this lake, it is a place of no return.

God loves His enemies. I know that is contrary to our fleshly nature but nevertheless that is what Christ revealed and the scripture clearly teaches.

Just as you, an enemy of God, were "destroyed" (your old man) and made new in Him, the same hope can be had for all the enemies of God.


Annihilation makes more sense than this doctrine which purports to give hope to the hopeless.

They are only hopeless according to your doctrine.

Scripture, on the other hand, gives me a glorious hope that Christ will actually be victorious in what He came to do, to seek and to save the lost and that not a single one the Father has given him shall He lose. He will not fail but will be glorified.

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 05:29 PM
Not that preconceived. Scripture uses that "eternal" word often enough in regard to punishment. Sure enough!

It definitely uses the greek word aion and aionos, which some translators have rendered eternal.


Actually no... it was simply my opinion that I think is played out often on Sunday mornings and daily on the Net and televisions etc.

The same could be said of the judgemental, hate filled Christianity we see today also. No wonder the doctrine of eternal torment is so popular considering the Christian culture of vengence.

That type of accusation is fairly easy and in the end doesn't really amount to much.


But then why is punishment for eternity looked at as "failure" in your mind?

Someone who is being punished for eternity is most certainly not saved.


It isn't new at all. It is pretty much a form of Nicolatianism which has been around even while the Apostle's were putting sandals on their feet. ;)

The only thing known about the Nicolaitans is they supposedly promoted antinomianism, specifically sexual promiscuity.

If you can provide one single legitimate source that the Nicolaitans adhered to all being saved thru Christ then put it on the table. Otherwise I'll chalk it up to hearsay.


And Augustine said tons of stuff that I would STRONGLY disagree with and that he defends someone... don't care. But in fact... he was speaking more of annihilation... not UR because that was a big matter back in that day.

Actually he was speaking of UR because more of the early fathers (especially eastern, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Clement, etc.) held to the doctrine they called apokatastasis (Acts 3:21), which was the restoration of all things thru Christ. Annihilation was a much lessly held view.


And let me add... I didn't say it was a new thing. You apparently are reading that into what I said.

Just making it clear that its not because of the current climate of "feel-goodism" in Christianity that many are holding to UR. There have been many who held to it throughout Christianity (especially before the dark ages).


Most UR aren't speaking of annihilation but are speaking of going in and getting out once your term is up and you come to your senses (my nutshell version) and then all go to heaven.

Correct, in that UR and annihilation are not the same thing.

And no man "goes to heaven" apart from repentance and faith in Christ. We all suffer God's condemnation and wrath until we are in Christ.


So God changes?

No. God remains the same. People change.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:00 PM
So ultimately what you guys who are following UR believe is that it is only "sort of terrible" and that we should only "sort of fear" because really... this whole hell thing is just misinterpreted and all that God is going to judge and that whole God's wrath thing is only God being sort of wrathful? Interesting concept and rather obvious why so many folk are embracing that doctrine what with all the feel-goodism that is bouncing around the Christian world now days. But thing is... there is a simple fact. God is going to judge and his wrath is going to show and there will be no mercy shown. Covenant changed at the cross... God didn't. ;)


Maybe you could exegete those scriptures and show us that they are without a doubt talking about the same lake of fire spoken of in Revelation.

It would be helpful PP.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:22 PM
embracing that doctrine what with all the feel-goodism

PP, Would you say that you embrace the doctrine of feel-badism? I must admit that I feel good about God.

Pleroo
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:26 PM
Keep studying, it's also mentioned in Isaiah 66:24,

Could be. I certainly think that the verse immediately preceding it fits. It speaks of the fact that all mankind will come and bow down before the Lord. And THEY -- the "all mankind" -- will look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled. We ALL rebelled and we ALL, with hearts filled with gratitude and joy, will bow before our Savior and praise and worship Him for saving us from ourselves.


23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the Lord. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."



other places indirectly in the old testament, and Jesus preaches about it in Matt 18:8, Matt 25:41, Matt 25:46

I believe those passages parallel the Gehenna passages and I have heard the case made that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are one and the same. I'm not convinced but not denying the possibility either.



- note that these verses in Matthew teach everlasting fire and everlasting punishment, so if you believe what Third Hero says about Hell only being a temporary HOLDING CELL then those verses must be referring to the Lake of Fire which is everlasting!

Note that a more literal translation of the word there is not "everlasting" but "age-during", as Young's Literal translates it.


Btw, the book of Revelation can be taken literally, it's not apocalyptic in the sense of it being purely symbolic and figurative, you wouldn't want to miss out on the blessing of Revelation 1:3!

No, certainly not! But look at Rev 1:1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


That word "signified" tells us just how this message is being communicated to us: by signs (or symbols). So, when I read in Rev 1:3 that I am blessed when I "hear" the words of the prophecy, I understand it's not meaning just to hear the words with my physical ears, but also with a spiritual, rather than natural, understanding of the signs.

(1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.)

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:53 PM
No, this is not my understanding nor my position.

I could do the same I imagine and casually state:

Mograce2U, Lets see if I understand your view.

You believe that God is either unwilling or unable to save all men. You believe that though Christ specifically stated that He came to seek and save the lost that He is actually incapable of doing just that and will severely fail at what He came to do.

Yet I have not said this, whereas you did say what I implied.

You believe that the sin of Adam is greater than the righteous act of Christ? Though Adam, by a single act of disobedience, was able to plunge mankind into sin and death, Jesus is unable to rescue that same mankind by His death on the cross and His resurrection.

I didn't say that either. The difference between how we see the grace of God given to man who is condemned because of his sin, is that I see it must be given in this life, while you have an escape from the very consequence for which death came. How is the seed of eternal life to be planted in a dead man? You must be born again - in this life.

In your opinion where grace does abound sin does much more abound.

But what you are saying is this:

(Rom 6:1 KJV) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

In your view it makes no difference whether one dies in his sin or not.

See that goes both ways but I personally have never found that type of communication to be effective, positive or beneficial to understanding why another person believes what they believe.

I don't either but it helps to illustrate what we are saying as others hear us.

All men (including yourself) at one time hate and resist God. All men suffer some consequences for sin committed and experience God's judgements to bring them to faith. The Law always leads to Christ. God doesn't change.

Now this is the difference between us: You put how we come to faith in the same context after death as it has been revealed to us as what is required before death. You liken the trials of this life to being no different than the fires of hell.

I believe your portrayal of God is much closer to the inquisition view of the God. That God is an eternal tormentor who delights in making the unbeliever writhe in pain for His glory.

Actually I do not understand the doctrine of hell all that well. But I do understand that God is holy and just and will punish sinners if they do not repent. Your stated view is not much better than what I portrayed here - yours just doesn't "last as long".

But, like I said, I see this type of discussion neither beneficial or productive.

And yet it seems important enough to consider the issue.

The only hope for mankind is faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other hope.

Yet if one does not have this hope before he dies, he will not live with Christ in the hereafter. The passage I quoted clearly states that it is in this life that we HAVE a hope in the life hereafter. You want to expand this hope to include all mankind regardless of their belief and faith in Christ. That makes nonsense of God meeting out any punishment at all upon those rebellious souls. It also makes the penalty for sin nonsensical. You have made death merely the means to an end and evil is somehow not really so wicked that it cannot be forgiven though men persist in it. You present the death of Christ upon the cross as the means to pass over the sins of the whole world. Which it is sufficient to accomplish and yet that is not His plan.

Have you forgotten what happened to those in Egypt who were not passed over? Or those who died in Noah's flood? The judgments we see occur in this life ARE a picture of the greater judgment that must be faced. You are making light of death in this life as well as the 2nd death in the next age. And that to proclaim the righteousness of Christ in a manner whereby the God of the earth will forgive men regardless of their repentance. It makes light of my salvation, which is what personally offends me. If men like Hitler are to be saved in the end, then who cares about the evil that men do? God that's Who, because there is vengeance and wrath to face. The holiness and righteousess of God requires it.

God loves His enemies. I know that is contrary to our fleshly nature but nevertheless that is what Christ revealed and the scripture clearly teaches.

But it is not contrary to my spiritual nature. By the Spirit that dwells in me I have learned to look upon unsaved men with eyes of compassion. That compassion is for their eternal souls.

(Mat 16:26-27 KJV) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? {27} For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Just as you, an enemy of God, were "destroyed" (your old man) and made new in Him, the same hope can be had for all the enemies of God.

Not if the new man doesn't exist before the old man dies. Where is the new man to be raised up from if he is not present before death? If the seed of eternal life has not been planted into the man beforehand, his name will not be found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

They are only hopeless according to your doctrine.

Scripture, on the other hand, gives me a glorious hope that Christ will actually be victorious in what He came to do, to seek and to save the lost and that not a single one the Father has given him shall He lose. He will not fail but will be glorified.They are hopeless because they stand condemned already because of sin. The whole world can receive that forgiveness because of Christ's death and resurrection, yet some will not. Those are the ones who deem themselves unworthy of life everlasting. It is in this life we must receive the promise of life by the Spirit, if we are to have a real hope in Christ and not be ashamed by a false hope when we rise to stand before Him.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:03 PM
They are hopeless because they stand condemned already because of sin. The whole world can receive that forgiveness because of Christ's death and resurrection, yet some will not. Those are the ones who deem themselves unworthy of life everlasting. It is in this life we must receive the promise of life by the Spirit, if we are to have a real hope in Christ and not be ashamed by a false hope when we rise to stand before Him.

You could end many a discussion if you could prove this biblically?

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:04 PM
They are hopeless because they stand condemned already because of sin.

As did we stand condemned, because of sin, yet we were not without hope.


The whole world can receive that forgiveness because of Christ's death and resurrection, yet some will not.

We disagree here obviously. I see biblical evidence that all will come to Christ.


Those are the ones who deem themselves unworthy of life everlasting.

And God is sufficient to be able to change their mind, calling them to repentence and faith in Christ, in His timing, just as He did with our wicked hearts.


It is in this life we must receive the promise of life by the Spirit, if we are to have a real hope in Christ and not be ashamed by a false hope when we rise to stand before Him.

We are to encourage all men, with urgency, to come to Christ NOW. There is no hope outside of Him and Him alone.

God's judgement rests upon and continues to rest upon all those outside of Christ. And that judgement has a purpose (as does all Law), to drive the person to Christ.

But I appreciate your thoughts nonetheless, even though we disagree :)

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:05 PM
It definitely uses the greek word aion and aionos, which some translators have rendered eternal.MOST have. Even those that use age or ages... point is the same. There will be another age that comes. It will be eternal.



The same could be said of the judgemental, hate filled Christianity we see today also. No wonder the doctrine of eternal torment is so popular considering the Christian culture of vengence.Just because they make the claim... don't make them so. If they have hatred or even vengeance then they ain't but in name (self-proclaimed) only.


That type of accusation is fairly easy and in the end doesn't really amount to much.

Accusation... if you will. It's a fact and yes... it amounts to much. Sad part is that folks don't count it as much. There lies the greatest problem.



Someone who is being punished for eternity is most certainly not saved.No doubt about that. But then why is that a failure?



The only thing known about the Nicolaitans is they supposedly promoted antinomianism, specifically sexual promiscuity.

If you can provide one single legitimate source that the Nicolaitans adhered to all being saved thru Christ then put it on the table. Otherwise I'll chalk it up to hearsay.UR promotes the same although not all UR folks go that route personally. But the doctrine itself allows for it. There is no "today is the day of Salvation" because it preaches that all are or will be saved come now or later after death. The teachings are very similar... pretty much nothing different than "go ahead and eat... you won't die." Different language... same ultimate message. And chalk it up to whatever you like. :)



Actually he was speaking of UR because more of the early fathers (especially eastern, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Clement, etc.) held to the doctrine they called apokatastasis (Acts 3:21), which was the restoration of all things thru Christ. Annihilation was a much lessly held view.His views were so line with paganism that it is freaky to me that folks would look to his views today with any great seriousnes... speaking of Origen who influenced many.



Just making it clear that its not because of the current climate of "feel-goodism" in Christianity that many are holding to UR. There have been many who held to it throughout Christianity (especially before the dark ages).Your opinion. It is the current feel-goodism that is driving folks into todays version of eastern philosophy and paganism. Just as folks like Augustine did ushering in the dark ages. And that's my opinion.



Correct, in that UR and annihilation are not the same thing.

And no man "goes to heaven" apart from repentance and faith in Christ. We all suffer God's condemnation and wrath until we are in Christ.



No. God remains the same. People change.And you see where in Scripture that shows that people will change once Christ returns and all is done?

Semi-tortured
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:24 PM
Here's my question. If its not OSAS, at what point does one become damned? Is there a certain amount of times a person can sin and then God says, "That's it, that was your last chance!" even if the person is truly repentant? I am a recovering porn addict and I used to do it all the time. After every time I did it I would beg for forgiveness because I KNEW it was wrong, but I couldn't stop for whatever reason. If I would have died in the height of my struggle, where would I have gone? I believed in Jesus. I knew I was a sinner and I constantly repented.

Now I don't believe in OSAS or UR. I believe you can cease to believe in God and Jesus at which point your salvation is lost. But I think using sin and how much you do it to determine whether or not you are saved is dangerous ground. If you take that stance, than there comes a certain cut-off point if you will where God will not forgive you. Also, If I am going off the road in a car and I have lived a Christ like life and have repented of my sins daily and the sh-- word slips from my mouth as I plunge to my death, is that an unrepented sin that will send me to hell? If that's the case, a lot of God fearing, Christ loving people could be in hell. IMO, you can't have it both ways. Either you have to repent for every sin as soon as you do it and hope that at the moment of your death something doesn't happen that causes you to slip up and sin, or Christ's death covers all your sins you have ever done and will ever do. That's not a OSAS stance as I believe you can reject Christ and God and then you are no longer saved, or you can start sinning and think its OK to sin and God doesn't care which thereby creates a false God that isn't the one in the Bible (ie someone who thinks that God is OK with people being gay or something to that affect).

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:26 PM
ProjectPeter, #53 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1418594&postcount=53)

And you see where in Scripture that shows that people will change once Christ returns and all is done?Why in the lake as they are gnashing their teeth in torment while the love and peace of God fills their rebellious hearts with a desire to repent...

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:30 PM
Here's my question. If its not OSAS, at what point does one become damned? Is there a certain amount of times a person can sin and then God says, "That's it, that was your last chance!" even if the person is truly repentant? I am a recovering porn addict and I used to do it all the time. After every time I did it I would beg for forgiveness because I KNEW it was wrong, but I couldn't stop for whatever reason. If I would have died in the height of my struggle, where would I have gone? I believed in Jesus. I knew I was a sinner and I constantly repented.

Now I don't believe in OSAS or UR. I believe you can cease to believe in God and Jesus at which point your salvation is lost. But I think using sin and how much you do it to determine whether or not you are saved is dangerous ground. If you take that stance, than there comes a certain cut-off point if you will where God will not forgive you. Also, If I am going off the road in a car and I have lived a Christ like life and have repented of my sins daily and the sh-- word slips from my mouth as I plunge to my death, is that an unrepented sin that will send me to hell? If that's the case, a lot of God fearing, Christ loving people could be in hell. IMO, you can't have it both ways. Either you have to repent for every sin as soon as you do it and hope that at the moment of your death something doesn't happen that causes you to slip up and sin, or Christ's death covers all your sins you have ever done and will ever do. That's not a OSAS stance as I believe you can reject Christ and God and then you are no longer saved, or you can start sinning and think its OK to sin and God doesn't care which thereby creates a false God that isn't the one in the Bible (ie someone who thinks that God is OK with people being gay or something to that affect).The only sin that will condemn you to hell is the sin of unbelief.

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:30 PM
Maybe you could exegete those scriptures and show us that they are without a doubt talking about the same lake of fire spoken of in Revelation.

It would be helpful PP.


PP, Would you say that you embrace the doctrine of feel-badism? I must admit that I feel good about God.Yeah Mike... there ya go! I'm want folks to feel bad! :rolleyes: With that... I don't think I'll bother too much to respond to the previous post.

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:31 PM
MOST have. Even those that use age or ages... point is the same. There will be another age that comes. It will be eternal.

That is simply an interpretation and of course there are many texts that use the word(s) not to indicate eternity. So, like I said, its an interpretation. One that should be considered but nonetheless definitely not a "slam dunk".


No doubt about that. But then why is that a failure?

Well, lets say you and I were in the army. You were my CO and you gave me a mission... "Go out and rescue all those who were lost in the air drop".

If I came back and reported to you "All those who were lost in the air drop were not saved", then the mission you gave me would not have been successful, i.e. it failed.


UR promotes the same although not all UR folks go that route personally. But the doctrine itself allows for it. There is no "today is the day of Salvation" because it preaches that all are or will be saved come now or later after death. The teachings are very similar... pretty much nothing different than "go ahead and eat... you won't die." Different language... same ultimate message. And chalk it up to whatever you like. :)

Not much different than the doctrine of eternal torment then. People are allowed to sin in this life and continue for eternity to sin against God and keep death "alive". Sin never comes to an end but is allowed to continue forever.

In the end any doctrine can be twisted unless/until God intervenes in a man's life.

UR, taught properly, teaches scriptural judgement upon those who sin against God and give warning to those who do that God's wrath will be upon them until they repent and turn to Christ.


His views were so line with paganism that it is freaky to me that folks would look to his views today with any great seriousnes... speaking of Origen who influenced many.

Ad hominem. You certainly won't find many speaking that of Gregory of Nyssa (one of the Cappadocian fathers who was instrumental in the Nicene Creed and was called the great defender of the faith but the whole Church).

My only point was that UR is a doctrine that has been held by many throughout the whole of the Church age and Augustine (the father of the doctrine of eternal torment) validates that very point.


Your opinion. It is the current feel-goodism that is driving folks into todays version of eastern philosophy and paganism. Just as folks like Augustine did ushering in the dark ages. And that's my opinion.

I agree that is your opinion :)

Augustine was the father of formulating the doctrine of eternal torment so there ya go.


And you see where in Scripture that shows that people will change once Christ returns and all is done?

As I said. God doesn't change. People do. Before we go to your request please show me where the doctrine of UR neccessitates a change in God.

I believe it is actually the doctrine of eternal torment which neccessitates a change in God.

According to that doctrine He now has pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is no longer merciful. His grace is not sufficient to save. His love comes to an end. His Law does not drive sinners to Christ.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:40 PM
Yeah Mike... there ya go! I'm want folks to feel bad! :rolleyes: With that... I don't think I'll bother too much to respond to the previous post.


No Need. You and I both know that it can't be done.

Mograce2U
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:44 PM
Toolman,

Well, lets say you and I were in the army. You were my CO and you gave me a mission... "Go out and rescue all those who were lost in the air drop".

If I came back and reported to you "All those who were lost in the air drop were not saved", then the mission you gave me would not have been successful, i.e. it failed.Analogies are imperfect, but consider this.

If some of those lost souls who need to be saved, hid in the bushes when the rescuers arrived, is it the fault of the rescuers who were sent that they were not rescued? Are those who were saved any less saved as a result? The mission did not fail to save those who actually were rescued. All were however lost, but some didn't want to be rescued.

God is not at fault if there are any who prefer their sin rather than salvation. They all require the mercy of God if they are to be saved. This is their position. Not all however will call upon the name of the Lord so that they can BE saved. Yet this is what God requires. And the requirement itself couldn't be any simpler.

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:52 PM
Toolman,
Analogies are imperfect, but consider this.

Yes they are and they always break down when you are using an analogy of finite beings to describe an infinite being.


If some of those lost souls who need to be saved, hid in the bushes when the rescuers arrived, is it the fault of the rescuers who were sent that they were not rescued? Are those who were saved any less saved as a result? The mission did not fail to save those who actually were rescued. All were however lost, but some didn't want to be rescued.

Nevertheless, the mission failed. Who was at fault is regardless. The mission that the CO sent the captain to do was a failure.

The Father sent the Son to perform the mission of seeking and saving the lost. I believe the mission will be successful.

God is very able to accomplish everything that He has purposed and man cannot thwart His ultimate plan of redemption.

That is my position.

Just like God changed our wicked heart from not wanting to be saved, He is able and willing to change all hearts to desire Christ.


God is not at fault if there are any who prefer their sin rather than salvation.

Notice my analogy did not place blame anywhere. It simply pointed out that what the CO sent the captain out to do the captain was unable to accomplish.


They all require the mercy of God if they are to be saved. This is their position. Not all however will call upon the name of the Lord so that they can BE saved. Yet this is what God requires. And the requirement itself couldn't be any simpler.

As I said, we disagree here. I see clear texts speaking of all bowing and confessing Christ to the glory of the Father. I see that God has confined ALL to disobedience that He might have mercy on ALL. I see all knowing God and not in need of another to teach them. I see Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

I'm not trying to convince you but I am sharing what I see in scripture :)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:02 PM
Hi Toolman!


Like to get your read on Matthew 22:1-14

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying,
2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
3 "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.

4 "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited,

"Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready;
come to the wedding feast."'

5 "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8 "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'
10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,

12 and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


Thanks! :)

Toolman
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:46 PM
RBG,

My take on this parable (others disagree with me depending on their eschatology) is that this is speaking of Israel's history and the Church (the elect).

My position is Christ is giving a history of Israel and then Church is called (street corner calling).

The man without wedding garments would represent one who is not in Christ.

Now, as I have stated before I believe the Church shares in "benefits" that others will not. They rule and reign with Christ, judge angels, do not taste the 2nd death, live thru the millineum, etc.
They are ESPECIALLY saved (1 Tim. 4:10).

So I seek to harmonize this passage with the whole of scripture which speaks of the number of those who worship Christ as innumerable (Revelation 7:9), Abraham's seed being as the stars of the sky/sand of the sea (Genesis 15:5), all of Israel's redemption (Romans 11:26), that every knee will bow and confess Christ to God's glory (Philippians 2:10-11). Certainly more than a few!

Regarding the man who was "kicked out" I notice the apostle Paul's command to the Corinthian Church to excommunicate the unrepentant sinner for "the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". I see God's heart even in excommunication that the soul be saved.

So, while I can see this parable speaking of a time period of election the parable does not force this to be an eternal seperation. In fact what I see as the overarching theme of scripture is that God uses the "few" to save the "many". This is a recurring theme in scripture, so I take note of that in regards to this parable. Abraham, Israel, Christ, the Church, Gideon's army, Rahab, Joseph, on and on. God elects the few to save the many.

That is my view :)

third hero
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:40 PM
Okay, I got through half of page 4 and a Glenn Beck moment happened. Toolman and MIkebr, both of you made my head EXPLODE!!!!!! (ALARM sounding) DUCK-TAPE ALERT!

It seems to me that the whole notion of this, "UR" whatever that is, bases it's faith in Hell and the Lake being nothing more than purgatory!!!!!!

Did anyone read the scriptures? How is this even a topic in here? Hell is a holding cell for the wicked, as told about many times in both the OT and NT. There is not one quotation of anyone who was thrown into Hell that had escaped. Not one of them were purified. The only ones who were "purified" were the blameless; those who lived their lives in total dedication to God, who awaited the sacrifice of the Messiah in a place in the Sheol called Abraham's Bosom. (Luke 16).

In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus and the rich man shared the same place, which was the land of the dead. (AKA the Sheol or Hades the original greek version.) Like Christ told, there was a gulf between the two. Those in Abraham's bosom could not cross over, and neither could those in Hell cross over. No one escaped hell. The only time in scripture where anyone escapes is two places; one was the son of perdition, who in Revelation 17 is described as the beast that once was, (at the time of John's writing of the book) is not, and will rise from the abyss (another word that described the sheol, or hades), and will go to his perdition. The other is when all who are in Hades are released to stand in front of the Lamb of God at the Great White Throne of Judgment. (Revelation 20). No one else can escape, and no one will.

Those who are hurled into the Lake of Fire, as described in Revelation 14:10-11, they are burned for all eternity. Well, I believe it actually says that the smoke of their torment will rise forever.... matter of fact, let's see what it actually says.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Well, I guess they are tormented, because scriptures say so. The point is this. They are hurled there forever. It is permanent. There is no going back, and there is no forgiveness. They are gone. It is also stated to be the Second Death.

While I am on this subject, let's look at other things which God has to say in th NT about the Lake of Fire.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4

The former things are literally, according to this scripture, put to death. What are the things that are gone? Well, here they are:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:14:15

Death and hell is senty into the Lake of Fire. This is the old order. The order of sin and death. Those who followed the order of sin and death are also eliminated. Don't believe? Well look at these and see for yourselves.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Well, that list covers everyone who sins, does it not? Where does it say that they will be purified? Where does it say that the rebels will be released and admitted to the New Jerusalem? Here is what I have read concerning those who will and will not gain admittannce to New Jerusalem.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. -Revelation 21:17

We, who were once rebels against God, have been shown our mortality and the extent of our sinfullness. The difference between us and the unbelievers is that we accepted what we were, and asked the Lord to save us from not only Hell and the Lake, but from ourselves, so that we can be like Him, righteous and holy. Those who choose to reject their true self and continue to work in abominations are those who will never step foot in the New Jerusalem, the City of God. It's black and white, and plain as day inthe scriptures. Rejecting these scriptures is plain foolishness.

This is why I say that we need to stop with all of this (warning: PP reference coming), Feelgood theology. All it does is work lies into the faith, and thus weaken it. See the plain truth, and come to the revelation that everyone who has accepted this fact have. "We need to seek out and bring the lost to Lord Jesus, because their fate is much worse than the most gruesome death a man can do to another person".

Now to those who think that God will save all mankind, and let not one be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, I have this to say. Jesus walked the earth, right? He taught salvation to all of the generation that walked the earth with Him, right? Well...

Did Christ save all mankind back then?

The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the next question is the same.

If Christ did not save all mankind back then, then will He save all mankind when He returns? Or, in that matter, will God save all of the lost during eternity future? The answer is the same... NO.

God's will will be done. One must understand this. God did not create robots. God wants those who are willing to follow Him to live with Him. Not all of mankind will do that. Therefore, not all mankind will be saved. Understand that, and simply accept it. You can not change reality. It is fruitless, and follish to believe in something that scriptures disprove.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:42 PM
Thanks TM!


RBG,

My take on this parable (others disagree with me depending on their eschatology) is that this is speaking of Israel's history and the Church (the elect).

Seeing that the Church is not yet, do you think the meat of the parable deals with Christ’s righteousness as entry? And remembering that the early church were entirely Jews to start, and the call is not to a group but to the individual?



My position is Christ is giving a history of Israel and then Church is called (street corner calling).

The man without wedding garments would represent one who is not in Christ.

A little bit of semantics on my part, but clothed in Christ's Righteousness is a bit more accurate… Isaiah 61: 10



Now, as I have stated before I believe the Church shares in "benefits" that others will not. They rule and reign with Christ, judge angels, do not taste the 2nd death, live thru the millineum, etc.
They are ESPECIALLY saved (1 Tim. 4:10).

So I seek to harmonize this passage with the whole of scripture which speaks of the number of those who worship Christ as innumerable (Revelation 7:9), Abraham's seed being as the stars of the sky/sand of the sea (Genesis 15:5), all of Israel's redemption (Romans 11:26), that every knee will bow and confess Christ to God's glory (Philippians 2:10-11). Certainly more than a few!


Good passages, amen! God will save many. But do you see these as being all inclusive of everyone ever created or is there a bit of exclusivity within your UR position?


I also see scripture three times pointing to every knee bowing and tongue confessing that Jesus is God [Isaiah 45:23 - I see this as being during the Millenium; Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:10 being more towards the judgment]... However, I don't see this as being everyone being saved in doing so. It's like me saying that Hilary is a presidential candidate for the 2008 election, but doesn't mean my saying so offers my support in doing so. I think that there will be people who will see Jesus for who He is, but will not repent, will not turn and who will not submit in worship as they state who he is, for their sinfulness will have been sealed and there will be no turning back. And they will agree that Jesus is the Son of God, just like the demons, yet it's too late.



Regarding the man who was "kicked out" I notice the apostle Paul's command to the Corinthian Church to excommunicate the unrepentant sinner for "the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". I see God's heart even in excommunication that the soul be saved.

So are you drawing a parallel to Matthew 22:13? And if so, how specifically do they relate to sanctification?



So, while I can see this parable speaking of a time period of election the parable does not force this to be an eternal seperation. In fact what I see as the overarching theme of scripture is that God uses the "few" to save the "many". This is a recurring theme in scripture, so I take note of that in regards to this parable. Abraham, Israel, Christ, the Church, Gideon's army, Rahab, Joseph, on and on. God elects the few to save the many.

That is my view

I see being thrown into outer darkness to that place were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth speaking of a real event within the parable, the implication I hear you hoping for is that there will be an end from being cast out for not having put on the clothes of Christ’s righteousness. I probably need some more scripture that is related to this understanding to see your point as you see it.

TM… I love talking with you, for you are not only polite, but also kind. Thank you.

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 10:03 PM
In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus and the rich man shared the same place, which was the land of the dead. (AKA the Sheol or Hades the original greek version.) Like Christ told, there was a gulf between the two. Those in Abraham's bosom could not cross over, and neither could those in Hell cross over. No one escaped hell. The only time in scripture where anyone escapes is two places; one was the son of perdition, who in Revelation 17 is described as the beast that once was, (at the time of John's writing of the book) is not, and will rise from the abyss (another word that described the sheol, or hades), and will go to his perdition. The other is when all who are in Hades are released to stand in front of the Lamb of God at the Great White Throne of Judgment. (Revelation 20). No one else can escape, and no one will.



Luke 16:19-31 'There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
'And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
'And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
'And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
'And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
'And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
'But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
'Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
'For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
'Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
'And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
'And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'


Lets look at the above scripture and if you take it literally then I have some questions.

1. Why did the rich man go to hell?
2. Why did Lazarus go to Abraham's Bosom?
3. Do you believe that there bodies went with them?
4. Do you believe that they prayed to Abraham?
5. Do you think a drop of water would be sufficient to quench the rich man's thirst?
6. If they were close enough to carry on a conversation why didn't Abraham and Lazarus feel the flames?

ProjectPeter
Oct 23rd 2007, 10:03 PM
That is simply an interpretation and of course there are many texts that use the word(s) not to indicate eternity. So, like I said, its an interpretation. One that should be considered but nonetheless definitely not a "slam dunk".



Well, lets say you and I were in the army. You were my CO and you gave me a mission... "Go out and rescue all those who were lost in the air drop".

If I came back and reported to you "All those who were lost in the air drop were not saved", then the mission you gave me would not have been successful, i.e. it failed.The mission didn't fail. The mission is for you to go out and rescue those lost in the air drop. That they were dead... that isn't the desired result of the mission but the mission itself is accomplished. You went out to save them.


Not much different than the doctrine of eternal torment then. People are allowed to sin in this life and continue for eternity to sin against God and keep death "alive". Sin never comes to an end but is allowed to continue forever.They won't sin. They will be dead. Death don't sin... it is death.


In the end any doctrine can be twisted unless/until God intervenes in a man's life.

UR, taught properly, teaches scriptural judgement upon those who sin against God and give warning to those who do that God's wrath will be upon them until they repent and turn to Christ.

Ad hominem. You certainly won't find many speaking that of Gregory of Nyssa (one of the Cappadocian fathers who was instrumental in the Nicene Creed and was called the great defender of the faith but the whole Church).I was speaking specifically of Origen... if I recall I specified that actually. Not read much of Gregory so wasn't commenting on him. If you think it is Ad hominem then do some research. MANY make it clear that his work was full of pagan influence. Goodness... that is pretty well documented.


My only point was that UR is a doctrine that has been held by many throughout the whole of the Church age and Augustine (the father of the doctrine of eternal torment) validates that very point.Like I said earlier... it's been around for a long time. Likely longer than Origen and the others. So what? So has many things and it's time around doesn't make it right or wrong. Just means it's been around. Like I said... OSAS has been around since the Garden. ;)




I agree that is your opinion :)

Augustine was the father of formulating the doctrine of eternal torment so there ya go. Can't be wrong on every issue. ;)



As I said. God doesn't change. People do. Before we go to your request please show me where the doctrine of UR neccessitates a change in God.

I believe it is actually the doctrine of eternal torment which neccessitates a change in God.

According to that doctrine He now has pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is no longer merciful. His grace is not sufficient to save. His love comes to an end. His Law does not drive sinners to Christ.I'll do that later. For now... fixing to go with the ladies and have some dinner! That comes first! :lol:

jiggyfly
Oct 23rd 2007, 10:26 PM
Posted by Toolman>As I said, we disagree here. I see clear texts speaking of all bowing and confessing Christ to the glory of the Father. I see that God has confined ALL to disobedience that He might have mercy on ALL. I see all knowing God and not in need of another to teach them. I see Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe.


Amen Toolman good posting, I am really enjoying your comments. I am a new student when it comes to UR and I am finding out that it sure helps the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

Sold Out
Oct 24th 2007, 01:00 PM
This is the first sermon I have ever heard on Hell. It cut me to the core. Please, I pray you'll watch the whole thing. It will give you a real fear for your friends, family, coworkers...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5918917853332429268&q=%22tim+conway%22+hell&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Fantastic message....the pastor was so burdened by what he knew God told him to say, and was so obedient to deliver the message.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 02:26 PM
Thanks TM!

You're welcome :)


Seeing that the Church is not yet, do you think the meat of the parable deals with Christ’s righteousness as entry?

It seems to me that the meat of the parable is the wedding of the Son (to a Bride) and the calling of guests to attend that wedding of the King's Son to His Bride. Then we see the stubborn refusal of those invited. Then the calling of those out in the streets instead of the original intended guests.

That seems to be the meat to me. But I would agree that Christ's imputed righteousness is part of the parable.


And remembering that the early church were entirely Jews to start, and the call is not to a group but to the individual?

I see that call as both "group" and individual.


A little bit of semantics on my part, but clothed in Christ's Righteousness is a bit more accurate… Isaiah 61: 10

I can agree with that :)

[QUOTE=Redeemed by Grace;1418798]Good passages, amen! God will save many. But do you see these as being all inclusive of everyone ever created or is there a bit of exclusivity within your UR position?

Everyone ever created.


I also see scripture three times pointing to every knee bowing and tongue confessing that Jesus is God [Isaiah 45:23 - I see this as being during the Millenium; Romans 14:11 and Philippians 2:10 being more towards the judgment]... However, I don't see this as being everyone being saved in doing so. It's like me saying that Hilary is a presidential candidate for the 2008 election, but doesn't mean my saying so offers my support in doing so. I think that there will be people who will see Jesus for who He is, but will not repent, will not turn and who will not submit in worship as they state who he is, for their sinfulness will have been sealed and there will be no turning back. And they will agree that Jesus is the Son of God, just like the demons, yet it's too late.

I understand that is your position. We will obviously disagree about God's intent at causing every knee to bow and every tongue to confess Christ to the glory of the Father.
I believe the Father is glorified by the reconciliation of His enemies to Himself thru the Son.

I'm also understand that others may not agree with me there :)


So are you drawing a parallel to Matthew 22:13? And if so, how specifically do they relate to sanctification?

It would seem the spirit displayed in Corinth is to allow the wrath of God (destruction of the flesh) to have its way so that repentance is borne.

We note the wrath of God in Romans 1:18-28:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

So, we see and understand here, that God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. And how is that God's wrath revealed?
By God "giving them over" to their own sinfulness to reap of the flesh. God's wrath is dealt out simply by God allowing men to follow their own wicked heart and reap the whirlwind.

I see this principle being played out with the Corinthian sinner also. I see this as a recurring biblical theme. And I see the purpose, always, as a call to repentance and faith.


I see being thrown into outer darkness to that place were there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth speaking of a real event within the parable, the implication I hear you hoping for is that there will be an end from being cast out for not having put on the clothes of Christ’s righteousness. I probably need some more scripture that is related to this understanding to see your point as you see it.

I see nothing within the parable to indicate that the casting out is eternal. We can assume either way but the parable makes no clear statement. So based on my understanding of the whole of scripture my deduction points me in a different direction than someone whose understanding of the whole of scripture might differ from mine.


TM… I love talking with you, for you are not only polite, but also kind. Thank you.

You are welcome RBG and I appreciate the opportunity to share a bit of my understanding of scripture and the nature of our God.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 02:41 PM
The mission didn't fail. The mission is for you to go out and rescue those lost in the air drop. That they were dead... that isn't the desired result of the mission but the mission itself is accomplished. You went out to save them.

But if they are dead and not saved then the mission was not successful. There's not much getting around that. The mission was to SEEK and to SAVE.

Just because I did the SEEK part of the mission does not complete the whole mission which also included the SAVE part. Going out to save them is only half of what I was sent to do.


They won't sin. They will be dead. Death don't sin... it is death.

If they continue to exist and have consciousness and continue to hate and curse God, then sin will continue for eternity (as well as death).

Just as dead men sin now (you were dead in sins), the doctrine of eternal torment states the torment of men will be eternal, conscious torment and men will continue to hate God.

Unless you are proposing annihilation, not much getting around that.


I was speaking specifically of Origen... if I recall I specified that actually.

You did, but the point is the same. UR has been a doctrine within the Christian Church since the beginning and many of the early Church fathers held to it and Augustine himself even validated it. That was my only point.

All the other stuff is just ad hominem. Origen was a pagan, Tertullian was a dictator, Augustine was a Manichaean, Calvin was a fascist, Luther was anti-semetic.

My point wasn't to validate the full work of any of these men but to simply show that across the board UR was a well accepted doctrine within the early Church and more than any Gregory of Nyssa shows this by his work in Nicea. If UR were considered heresy then there is no way the Church would have allowed his great influence in the Nicene Creed and call him the defender of the orthodox faith.

So, UR is not the result of the feel-goodism of our times but is a result of those who believe that Christ is actually able to seek and save ALL those for whom the Father sent Him and that God is able to actually accomplish His will in His eternal plan of redemption. Has nothing to do with feel-goodism.


Not read much of Gregory so wasn't commenting on him. If you think it is Ad hominem then do some research. MANY make it clear that his work was full of pagan influence. Goodness... that is pretty well documented.

I have read much about Origen (and many of the early believers). Just as I have found with most, those who oppose his doctrine make him a devil, those who support make him a saint.
Like most of us I'm sure he struggled with both :)

There's no doubt I see much in Origen's writings that I strongly disagree with. Nevertheless, as you say, "Can't be wrong on every issue" :)


Can't be wrong on every issue. ;)

;)


I'll do that later. For now... fixing to go with the ladies and have some dinner! That comes first! :lol:

Always!! If mama ain't happy :D

Mograce2U
Oct 24th 2007, 03:02 PM
Toolman,

If they continue to exist and have consciousness and continue to hate and curse God, then sin will continue for eternity (as well as death).

Just as dead men sin now (you were dead in sins), the doctrine of eternal torment states the torment of men will be eternal, conscious torment and men will continue to hate God.

Unless you are proposing annihilation, not much getting around that.It seems to me that the lake of fire effectively contains Satan, sinners and death so that the new heavens and earth are not polluted by them anymore.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 03:08 PM
Toolman,
It seems to me that the lake of fire effectively contains Satan, sinners and death so that the new heavens and earth are not polluted by them anymore.

I understand, nevertheless, sin continues eternally because conscious sinners continue to hate and curse God.

Therefore sin and death continue to exist for eternity, whether "hidden" off from some or not.

This is not the case in UR (or annihilationism). Sin and death are truly brought to an end and no longer exist.

Mograce2U
Oct 24th 2007, 04:02 PM
I understand, nevertheless, sin continues eternally because conscious sinners continue to hate and curse God.

Therefore sin and death continue to exist for eternity, whether "hidden" off from some or not.

This is not the case in UR (or annihilationism). Sin and death are truly brought to an end and no longer exist.This would seem to be the bottom line. What God has created comes into existence forever.

(Rom 11:29 KJV) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

(Num 23:19 KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(Isa 55:11 KJV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The good words of God contain both blessings and cursings. Annihilation is not true because God is not going to take away the souls that He has brought to life. That word contains a revelation of both salvation and judgment. This is why the cross was necessary: to bring forgiveness to men because there is a judgment upon sin to face.

In your view, that forgiveness is extended to all men even though they continue to be at enmity with God. But the purpose of forgiveness is to end that enmity and restore man to God's favor and blessing. This requires that men repent to be reconciled to God so that this relationship can be enjoyed. God is not extending His love into the hearts of men so that they can continue in their rebellion. No, that love is redemptive and will change the very nature of the man if it is resident. This is the impossible thing which only God can do - to make a new creature who responds in kind to His Maker.

The grace and love and truth of God all work within the man to bring this about by faith. Wrath however does no such thing. Rather wrath is to work judgment thru death. Both put a stop to sin in this life which is temporal. But death being common to all is not in itself redemptive.

Now in the eternal realm we have something different to consider. The entrance into that realm comes only thru death. And those who enter in come in as the just thru grace or the unjust thru wrath. Both will be rewarded for the life they lived according to the word of God whether they knew it or not. Man will be unable to justify his actions, because the Lord knows his heart. What the man did while alive reveals the condition of his heart but only God can judge him with equity.

Our courts of law provide a picture of what it means to pass the death sentence upon a murderer. Yet there are some today who protest that this sentence is unfair to impose. This is the UR side of things. To them no sin is so great that a man can commit that God will not forgive it by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. But was this the reason that Jesus had to die? So unrepentant murders could go free without recourse? What murderer would not "repent" in lieu of this penalty he has to face?

Apparently not Judas. In fact Judas preferred death to repentance and killed himself rather than face what he had done. And he was the only one whom Jesus had chosen which we are told would stay lost to fulfill the word of God. That means Judas is in hell having come under judgment by wrath rather than grace. Yet grace had been given to him, but treason came into his heart by covetousness. This is but one example given to us that the unrepentant will stay lost and not be saved according to the word of God.

So is the final judgment really final? Is God only meeting out life sentences with parole in view, or the death penalty by calling it the 2nd death?

Pleroo
Oct 24th 2007, 04:11 PM
Hi Third. I realize you were addressing this to TM and Mike and they're certainly better able to respond than I am, but it looked like in the barrage of posts, yours might have gotten missed, so I thought I'd do my best to answer. If they disagree with me on any point, I'm sure they'll free to call me on it. :)



Okay, I got through half of page 4 and a Glenn Beck moment happened. Toolman and MIkebr, both of you made my head EXPLODE!!!!!! (ALARM sounding) DUCK-TAPE ALERT!

It seems to me that the whole notion of this, "UR" whatever that is, bases it's faith in Hell and the Lake being nothing more than purgatory!!!!!!

I really understand that statement! That was exactly what I thought when I first heard of UR. It wasn't until I studied it indepth that I realized that I was making an unfounded assumption. (I know very little about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory so my apologies to them if I misrepresent their belief. I am only sharing here what my understanding of it has always been.) Purgatory is the belief that some will be required to pay for their own sins in a place of torment after death in order to be given entrance to heaven.

This is not the UR belief. We can never pay for our sins. Jesus Christ, through His life, death and resurrection, took our sins upon Himself. He bore what we are unable to.



Did anyone read the scriptures? How is this even a topic in here?


The administration of the board has gracefully given us some leeway to discuss this topic. I believe, within orthodox Christianity (those who hold to the essential doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, deity of Christ, etc.) there are 3 camps regarding this subject: those who believe in Eternal Torment, those who believe in annihilation, and those who believe that all will be reconciled to God in the fullness of time. All 3 of these can give Biblical support for their beliefs, so to ask if we've read Scripture is really an unfounded attack. ;) If you would like, I can give you a list of many Scriptures which directly support the view of UR, that God's plan is to reconcile all men to Himself through Jesus Christ, and that what He wills, He will accomplish.



Hell is a holding cell for the wicked, as told about many times in both the OT and NT. There is not one quotation of anyone who was thrown into Hell that had escaped. Not one of them were purified. The only ones who were "purified" were the blameless; those who lived their lives in total dedication to God, who awaited the sacrifice of the Messiah in a place in the Sheol called Abraham's Bosom. (Luke 16).

What you're saying here is motivated by the idea that UR teaches purgatory, and I've already addressed that so I'll move on.


In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Lazarus and the rich man shared the same place, which was the land of the dead. (AKA the Sheol or Hades the original greek version.) Like Christ told, there was a gulf between the two. Those in Abraham's bosom could not cross over, and neither could those in Hell cross over. No one escaped hell.

This parable is a whole thread in itself, I think, but I will simply say this. In the parable (told prior to Christ's resurrection), Abraham states that it is impossible for anyone to cross the gulf. But Jesus Christ bridged that gulf when He rose from the dead. "With man, this is impossible, with God, all things are possible."


The only time in scripture where anyone escapes is two places; one was the son of perdition, who in Revelation 17 is described as the beast that once was, (at the time of John's writing of the book) is not, and will rise from the abyss (another word that described the sheol, or hades), and will go to his perdition. The other is when all who are in Hades are released to stand in front of the Lamb of God at the Great White Throne of Judgment. (Revelation 20). No one else can escape, and no one will.

Those who are hurled into the Lake of Fire, as described in Revelation 14:10-11, they are burned for all eternity. Well, I believe it actually says that the smoke of their torment will rise forever.... matter of fact, let's see what it actually says.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Well, I guess they are tormented, because scriptures say so. The point is this. They are hurled there forever. It is permanent. There is no going back, and there is no forgiveness. They are gone. It is also stated to be the Second Death.

While I am on this subject, let's look at other things which God has to say in th NT about the Lake of Fire.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4

The former things are literally, according to this scripture, put to death. What are the things that are gone? Well, here they are:

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:14:15

Death and hell is senty into the Lake of Fire. This is the old order. The order of sin and death. Those who followed the order of sin and death are also eliminated. Don't believe? Well look at these and see for yourselves.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Well, that list covers everyone who sins, does it not? Where does it say that they will be purified? Where does it say that the rebels will be released and admitted to the New Jerusalem? Here is what I have read concerning those who will and will not gain admittannce to New Jerusalem.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. -Revelation 21:17

We, who were once rebels against God, have been shown our mortality and the extent of our sinfullness.

You have answered, in my opinion, your own arguments with this last sentence. WE were once rebels and God, in His grace, opened our eyes to our mortality and sinfulness. I believe that Scripture shows clearly that death is not more powerful than the never failing love and never-ending mercy of God, and our physical death cannot stop Him from reaching all with His love and mercy. He opened our eyes, we who were dead in our sins. I have faith that He will open theirs as well.


The difference between us and the unbelievers is that we accepted what we were, and asked the Lord to save us from not only Hell and the Lake, but from ourselves, so that we can be like Him, righteous and holy. Those who choose to reject their true self and continue to work in abominations are those who will never step foot in the New Jerusalem, the City of God. It's black and white, and plain as day inthe scriptures. Rejecting these scriptures is plain foolishness.

We do not reject Scripture, but view these passages in light of the clear passages which speak of the fact that God is reconciling all to Himself in due time.


This is why I say that we need to stop with all of this (warning: PP reference coming), Feelgood theology. All it does is work lies into the faith, and thus weaken it. See the plain truth, and come to the revelation that everyone who has accepted this fact have. "We need to seek out and bring the lost to Lord Jesus, because their fate is much worse than the most gruesome death a man can do to another person".

Now to those who think that God will save all mankind, and let not one be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, I have this to say. Jesus walked the earth, right? He taught salvation to all of the generation that walked the earth with Him, right? Well...

Did Christ save all mankind back then?

No, before Christ's death He called only a few to Himsef. In God's amazing grace, as He unfolds His plan, He is allowing His followers to take part, as the body of Christ, in bringing all to Him.



The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the next question is the same.

If Christ did not save all mankind back then, then will He save all mankind when He returns? Or, in that matter, will God save all of the lost during eternity future? The answer is the same... NO.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men, especially those who believe. Are you denying what Scripture clearly says? ;)


God's will will be done. One must understand this. God did not create robots. God wants those who are willing to follow Him to live with Him. Not all of mankind will do that. Therefore, not all mankind will be saved. Understand that, and simply accept it. You can not change reality. It is fruitless, and follish to believe in something that scriptures disprove.

Amen, God's will will be done. And I believe Scripture is very clear in declaring that His will is to reconcile all men to Himself. That is what I understand and accept and I rejoice in it!

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. 20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 04:45 PM
This would seem to be the bottom line. What God has created comes into existence forever.

(Rom 11:29 KJV) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

(Num 23:19 KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(Isa 55:11 KJV) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Sin and death are not part of God's good creation but are part of the things God is redeeming His good creation from.

Sin and death will not continue to exist but will be done away with completely.

Revelation 21:4-5 - There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making EVERYTHING new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

1 Cor. 15:26-28 - The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!



The good words of God contain both blessings and cursings. Annihilation is not true because God is not going to take away the souls that He has brought to life.

We agree.


That word contains a revelation of both salvation and judgment. This is why the cross was necessary: to bring forgiveness to men because there is a judgment upon sin to face.

We completely agree.


In your view, that forgiveness is extended to all men even though they continue to be at enmity with God.

Just as that forgiveness was extended to you and me when we, in our wicked hearts, resisted His holy Spirit and continued to sin against Him. He did not withdraw His reconciliation from us but brought us to Himself, when we were yet His enemies.


But the purpose of forgiveness is to end that enmity and restore man to God's favor and blessing. This requires that men repent to be reconciled to God so that this relationship can be enjoyed. God is not extending His love into the hearts of men so that they can continue in their rebellion. No, that love is redemptive and will change the very nature of the man if it is resident. This is the impossible thing which only God can do - to make a new creature who responds in kind to His Maker.

We are in absolute total agreement here. You just put a limit on when God can choose to do this work of grace (this life only), whereas I believe God has declared He will do this work of grace in His timing and physical death is no limit for Him to do this very thing.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 - For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified IN DUE TIME



The grace and love and truth of God all work within the man to bring this about by faith. Wrath however does no such thing.

We disagree here. The scripture seems clear on this point to me:

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the law (which reveals God's wrath) was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Isaiah 26:9 - My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.


We see a clear biblical theme of God's judgements coming upon Israel to cause them to repent and come back to Him.

So, I strongly disagree that God's judgements, wrath, discipline, punishment, etc. does not have the purpose of what we see over and over in scripture which is to cause repentance and faith.

God's attributes of justice and love are not in opposition to one another. They are not in conflict. They both flow from the same Being who in love poured out his justice on Christ and how in justice gives His love to His enemies.

That's good news :)


Rather wrath is to work judgment thru death. Both put a stop to sin in this life which is temporal. But death being common to all is not in itself redemptive.

Agreed. Death is something to be redeemed from.


Now in the eternal realm we have something different to consider. The entrance into that realm comes only thru death. And those who enter in come in as the just thru grace or the unjust thru wrath. Both will be rewarded for the life they lived according to the word of God whether they knew it or not. Man will be unable to justify his actions, because the Lord knows his heart. What the man did while alive reveals the condition of his heart but only God can judge him with equity.

We do not disagree and I fully affirm the judgement of God that rests upon those who are not in Christ by faith in Him alone.


Our courts of law provide a picture of what it means to pass the death sentence upon a murderer. Yet there are some today who protest that this sentence is unfair to impose. This is the UR side of things. To them no sin is so great that a man can commit that God will not forgive it by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. But was this the reason that Jesus had to die? So unrepentant murders could go free without recourse? What murderer would not "repent" in lieu of this penalty he has to face?

Just as God has been changing murderer's hearts for thousands of years He will continue to be able to do so. There is nothing that is impossible with Him.

The unrepentant murderer will remain under God's judgement until repentance and faith in Christ.

God does not change. His ways remain. It is man who must change.


Apparently not Judas. In fact Judas preferred death to repentance and killed himself rather than face what he had done. And he was the only one whom Jesus had chosen which we are told would stay lost to fulfill the word of God. That means Judas is in hell having come under judgment by wrath rather than grace. Yet grace had been given to him, but treason came into his heart by covetousness. This is but one example given to us that the unrepentant will stay lost and not be saved according to the word of God.

Obviously we will disagree regarding this.


So is the final judgment really final? Is God only meeting out life sentences with parole in view, or the death penalty by calling it the 2nd death?

The final judgement will indeed be final. Does not mean it will be a final judgement of death, allowing sin and death to continue eternally.
It will be a judgement of grace whereby all men are changed, redeemed and brought back to God. Sin and death will be destroyed and Christ will have fulfilled that for which He came, to atone for the sins of the world, to reconcile all things back to God, to take away sin, to destroy death, to restore all things, so that God may be all in all.

ProjectPeter
Oct 24th 2007, 06:00 PM
But if they are dead and not saved then the mission was not successful. There's not much getting around that. The mission was to SEEK and to SAVE.

Just because I did the SEEK part of the mission does not complete the whole mission which also included the SAVE part. Going out to save them is only half of what I was sent to do.Tis the problem with analogies... but be it known. Been on those seek and save missions and never were we moving where we didn't know the reality that they might not be alive. Our mission was to seek and rescue but rescue doesn't mean they have to be found alive. It's wonderful when that happens. But it isn't a requirement of the mission to bring them back alive. If you find them... alive or dead... mission accomplished. Folks like Slug can explain this too. Rest assured that their status of living or dying doesn't make the mission a success or failure. If they are dead you feel horrid... but you didn't fail the mission.

Just as we are told to go into the world and preach the gospel, baptizing the nations etc..... If we do that and not everyone that hears is saved... did we fail? Of course not. But I failed because I didn't baptize the entire nation! Of course not. Did Paul fail when the dude in Corinth was doing the nasty with his dad's wife? Did Paul fail when folks turned from the truth and preached a different gospel? Did Paul fail because the Galatian church started going goofy? Or did Paul do what he was supposed to do and those folks determined within their own selves to do otherwise? There are things that are outside of our realm of changing so what is the mission? Go and spread the good news... it is not a failure that everyone is not saved.

Just as it will not be a failure when folks go to hell. This is exactly the problem with dragging philosophy into theology. It generally breeds this very sort of thing.

Here's a passage that should make the point.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 ¶But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."




If they continue to exist and have consciousness and continue to hate and curse God, then sin will continue for eternity (as well as death).

Just as dead men sin now (you were dead in sins), the doctrine of eternal torment states the torment of men will be eternal, conscious torment and men will continue to hate God.

Unless you are proposing annihilation, not much getting around that.No... it doesn't continue "in the camp". It will not continue in the kingdom hence the place Christ prepares for us. ;)


You did, but the point is the same. UR has been a doctrine within the Christian Church since the beginning and many of the early Church fathers held to it and Augustine himself even validated it. That was my only point.

All the other stuff is just ad hominem. Origen was a pagan, Tertullian was a dictator, Augustine was a Manichaean, Calvin was a fascist, Luther was anti-semetic.

My point wasn't to validate the full work of any of these men but to simply show that across the board UR was a well accepted doctrine within the early Church and more than any Gregory of Nyssa shows this by his work in Nicea. If UR were considered heresy then there is no way the Church would have allowed his great influence in the Nicene Creed and call him the defender of the orthodox faith. From what I know of Gregory... he simply said man cannot know because he was big on the fact that there are just simply things we ain't going to know. The mind can't comprehend God. He didn't rag Origen but he agreed with Augustine that some would be eternally damned... but he also said we could continue praying for folks even after they were dead... etc. And like many... in his later years he seems to go a bit weird.

All that being said still brings me back to "so what?" It don't much matter what Origen or even Gregory said. Old dead men with old dead writings that most Protestants would reject without much thought today. And honestly... good reason.




So, UR is not the result of the feel-goodism of our times but is a result of those who believe that Christ is actually able to seek and save ALL those for whom the Father sent Him and that God is able to actually accomplish His will in His eternal plan of redemption. Has nothing to do with feel-goodism.Uh... I never said UR was the result of feel-goodism. I said the reason that SO MANY ARE EMBRACING IT today. I have stated from the beginning that forms of universalism have been around since pretty much the beginning of the Church. Don't know how many times I have to say that for it to actually get through to you.



I have read much about Origen (and many of the early believers). Just as I have found with most, those who oppose his doctrine make him a devil, those who support make him a saint. Tis the way it works.



Like most of us I'm sure he struggled with both :)

There's no doubt I see much in Origen's writings that I strongly disagree with. Nevertheless, as you say, "Can't be wrong on every issue" :)



;)



Always!! If mama ain't happy :DShoot... now I have to go back and find out what it was I was supposed to do! :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 24th 2007, 06:50 PM
Howdy TM!


You're welcome :)



It seems to me that the meat of the parable is the wedding of the Son (to a Bride) and the calling of guests to attend that wedding of the King's Son to His Bride. Then we see the stubborn refusal of those invited. Then the calling of those out in the streets instead of the original intended guests.

That seems to be the meat to me. But I would agree that Christ's imputed righteousness is part of the parable.

Quickly, the subject is the wedding of the King's son, the object being the invitation to the King's guests… Now looking at the application, it hits as to who will be accepted or who is worthy and why they are worthy to stay.


- So there are two rejections being presented… The first is the call to the King’s chosen guests…and they refused to attend. In fact they killed the King’s messengers

- The second is from those guests who have been rounded up – both good and bad, and from there, one who did not put on the given wedding garment

Now… to the conclusion and purpose… the King stated--> Bind this man [from the second group]… take him away… and cast him into outer darkness. – there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth…for many are called but few are chosen

Another parable with an equal conclusion is Matthew 13:47-50

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.





I see that call as both "group" and individual.


A little bit of semantics on my part, but clothed in Christ's Righteousness is a bit more accurate… Isaiah 61: 10


I can agree with that :)



Everyone ever created.



I understand that is your position. We will obviously disagree about God's intent at causing every knee to bow and every tongue to confess Christ to the glory of the Father.
I believe the Father is glorified by the reconciliation of His enemies to Himself thru the Son.

I'm also understand that others may not agree with me there :)



It would seem the spirit displayed in Corinth is to allow the wrath of God (destruction of the flesh) to have its way so that repentance is borne.

We note the wrath of God in Romans 1:18-28:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

So, we see and understand here, that God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. And how is that God's wrath revealed?
By God "giving them over" to their own sinfulness to reap of the flesh. God's wrath is dealt out simply by God allowing men to follow their own wicked heart and reap the whirlwind.

I see this principle being played out with the Corinthian sinner also. I see this as a recurring biblical theme. And I see the purpose, always, as a call to repentance and faith.

I hear you… so in your continued view, how do you deal with the Wrath of God as described in Revelation 14:9-11?

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."






I see nothing within the parable to indicate that the casting out is eternal.

You ever fish TM? :) If so, casting a line is sending the line out. Reeling the line in is pulling it in.... Casting doesn't bring in reeling... they are two separate events.

I see scripture stating many times to the cast out those who are 'evil', but never do I see them being brought back in... So those whom have been cast out --- they are out, as are the tares, and the goats, and the 5 maidens without oil, unless you can show that they were brought back.


I got a couple more thoughts but I got jump on another call....

Hope all is well...

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 07:44 PM
Tis the problem with analogies... but be it known. Been on those seek and save missions and never were we moving where we didn't know the reality that they might not be alive. Our mission was to seek and rescue but rescue doesn't mean they have to be found alive. It's wonderful when that happens. But it isn't a requirement of the mission to bring them back alive. If you find them... alive or dead... mission accomplished. Folks like Slug can explain this too. Rest assured that their status of living or dying doesn't make the mission a success or failure. If they are dead you feel horrid... but you didn't fail the mission.

Just as we are told to go into the world and preach the gospel, baptizing the nations etc..... If we do that and not everyone that hears is saved... did we fail? Of course not. But I failed because I didn't baptize the entire nation! Of course not. Did Paul fail when the dude in Corinth was doing the nasty with his dad's wife? Did Paul fail when folks turned from the truth and preached a different gospel? Did Paul fail because the Galatian church started going goofy? Or did Paul do what he was supposed to do and those folks determined within their own selves to do otherwise? There are things that are outside of our realm of changing so what is the mission? Go and spread the good news... it is not a failure that everyone is not saved.

Correct, analogies break down at some point.

Your question to me was why did I view some being lost as a failure of the mission.

If Christ's mission is to seek AND save that which was lost and some of that which was lost remains lost then what He came to accomplish was not done, because the "saving" part was not accomplished and the lost remains lost.

The analogy of course breaks down because we are speaking of God and not finite beings.

So, that is why I would view the mission as failed because some remain lost and were not saved, which is what He came to do.

I never stated that if they were lost that it was His fault. The blame is irrelevant.


Just as it will not be a failure when folks go to hell. This is exactly the problem with dragging philosophy into theology. It generally breeds this very sort of thing.

My theology believes that Christ will actually be successful at what He came to do, not from a philosophical standpoint but from a scriptural, theological standpoint. Has nothing to do with philosophy. Scripture states He came to seek and save the lost. Scripture says God's plan cannot be thwarted.
I'll take Him at His word... no need to philosophy it at all.


Here's a passage that should make the point.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 ¶But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

I fully agree. The word of God will not fail and will accomplish the mission for which Christ was sent, to seek and save.

As Paul points out in that same discussion:

Romans 11:26-27,30-32 - And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



No... it doesn't continue "in the camp". It will not continue in the kingdom hence the place Christ prepares for us. ;)

Nevertheless, sin and death continue to exist for eternity, instead of actually being destroyed and done away with.

God will be keenly aware of the continued sinfulness that exists somewhere. It would seem the saints will not remain in ignorance of this fact either.

Especially when observing some of the passages used to support eternal torment:

Rev. 14:10-11 - he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

If men are tormented in Christ's presence eternally then not sure how it remains hidden, but for the sake of discussion we'll say its "outside the camp". It still exists and will continue to do so for eternity. God will allow sin and death to remain.


From what I know of Gregory... he simply said man cannot know because he was big on the fact that there are just simply things we ain't going to know. The mind can't comprehend God. He didn't rag Origen but he agreed with Augustine that some would be eternally damned... but he also said we could continue praying for folks even after they were dead... etc. And like many... in his later years he seems to go a bit weird.

Nah, not much support to back up that position that I can find.

In Christianity, apocatastasis is the doctrine of the ultimate reconciliation of good and evil. Apocatastasis maintains that all moral creatures -- angels, humans and devils -- will eventually come to a harmony in God's kingdom. It is based on the Biblical passage in 1 Corinthians 15:28 ("When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.") and was extensively preached in the Eastern church by St. Gregory of Nyssa and Gregory of Nazianzus, and in the Western church by Ambrose of Milan in the 4th century. Jerome (347-420) initially believed but then recanted and Basil the Great (330-379), who opposed the doctrine, wrote that the majority of Christians believed.

The belief was first articulated and defended by Origen of Alexandria (185-232) and Clement of Alexandria (?-215), two theologians who were schooled and steeped in Hellenistic philosophy and familiar with Gnostic and Mystery Cult writings. They freely adapted neo-Platonic terminology and ideas to Christianity while explaining and differentiating the new faith from all the others.[8] [9]. Some scholars credit Origen's On First Principles as the first Christian systematic theological work.[10] It contained key concepts of the Trinity and Free Will as well as Apocatastasis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis

A little more than a century later, another systematic theologian, Augustine of Hippo (354-386), focused on a different part of the bible and formulated what later developed into the doctrine of double predestination, which is the belief that some people are predestined for salvation and some people are predestined for damnation.


All that being said still brings me back to "so what?" It don't much matter what Origen or even Gregory said. Old dead men with old dead writings that most Protestants would reject without much thought today. And honestly... good reason.

I won't continue to bring up the point.


Uh... I never said UR was the result of feel-goodism. I said the reason that SO MANY ARE EMBRACING IT today.

Well, that would be like me saying that many today are embracing arminianism because of the works based mentality that exists within modern Christianity.

The implication is that most pre-modern Christians didn't hold to arminianism but its something that is being widespread held today because of a loss of sound, orthodox doctrine.

But I think we have accurately answered this one. You can accuse URists of "feel-goodism" as why they believe it and others can accuse you of "works based" salvation.

I know for a fact the reason I hold to UR is because of the character and nature of God and not because of some feel-goodism.

I'm sure you would also counter that you don't hold to arminianism because you believe in a works based salvation but those types of accusations are fairly easy to fling around and in the end only God knows a man's heart and why he believes certain things about God.


I have stated from the beginning that forms of universalism have been around since pretty much the beginning of the Church. Don't know how many times I have to say that for it to actually get through to you.

Huh... what did you say... I didn't quite catch that one :lol:


Shoot... now I have to go back and find out what it was I was supposed to do! :lol:

Old age... it stinks :)

Mograce2U
Oct 24th 2007, 07:59 PM
Toolman, #76 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1419555&postcount=76)

We disagree here. The scripture seems clear on this point to me:

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the law (which reveals God's wrath) was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The revelation of which gives proper warning to those who heed what it says.

Isaiah 26:9 - My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.

Is this said to those who were killed by those judgments or to those who witnessed them but escaped death? What is it the one's killed learned? Certainly not what they must do to avoid it! Too late!

We see a clear biblical theme of God's judgements coming upon Israel to cause them to repent and come back to Him.

And who are the ones who turn and repent? Not the ones slain.

So, I strongly disagree that God's judgements, wrath, discipline, punishment, etc. does not have the purpose of what we see over and over in scripture which is to cause repentance and faith.

What the rich man in hell "learned" and wanted to warn his brothers of who were still living upon the earth, was to avoid the place he was in. His inability to cross over the gulf that was fixed, shows that he should have learned this lesson BEFORE he found himself there. What he learned at that time was that he could no longer repent and be released so as to come to where Lazarus was now. And if you notice, belief was the key. If his brethren did not believe Moses and the prophets, then even sending Lazarus to them wouldn't turn them to believing faith. Which is exactly what was going to happen to those men Jesus was speaking to who were ridiculing Him.

God's attributes of justice and love are not in opposition to one another. They are not in conflict. They both flow from the same Being who in love poured out his justice on Christ and how in justice gives His love to His enemies.

Lets try an example with a homosexual who contracts AIDS - which is a known threat for his sinful lifestyle. As he lies on his deathbed and considers his fate, he has two choices. Agree with God that he brought this upon himself and the consequence is a just one and turn to the Lord for forgiveness; or deny that he has done anything wrong and blame God for letting this happen to him (IOW - not his own fault). Unless he agrees with God he has little chance of coming to repentance. If facing the consequences does not bring him to repentance, how do you expect it to work after he is dead? Now if his brother who practices the same lifestyle but does not yet have AIDS and considers what the fate of his brother is, and changes his course as a result; then he has properly responded to the witness he was given. If however, he merely tries to avoid the disease without ceasing the sin, he has not learned a thing which will be pleasing to God. What he fails to consider is that he too will die, though he may be able to avoid getting AIDS, and that there will be a judgment to face regardless.

That's good news No it is not, its wishful thinking.

(John 3:36 KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

third hero
Oct 24th 2007, 08:40 PM
Lets look at the above scripture and if you take it literally then I have some questions.

1. Why did the rich man go to hell?
2. Why did Lazarus go to Abraham's Bosom?
3. Do you believe that there bodies went with them?
4. Do you believe that they prayed to Abraham?
5. Do you think a drop of water would be sufficient to quench the rich man's thirst?
6. If they were close enough to carry on a conversation why didn't Abraham and Lazarus feel the flames?

1. The actions of the rich man while he was alive, especially the refusing to aid those who were in need (Matthew 25:31-48; the ones on the left of the King). His actions had caused him to be thrown in Hell.

2. Lazarus was a poor man, diseased and in pain, unable to work. A beggar, for lack of a better word. God has compassion on the poor, and He takes care of them, especially when others do not. Jesus, in the parable, had him in Abraham's Bosom. That's good enough for me.

3. No, their bodies did not go with them. Lazarus in the parable was weak, in pain, and hurting all over. The Rich man was in not diseased. This is why it is called the land of the dead, aka the Sheol. The Grave. The souls of those who lived on earth before Christ's sacrifice went there, and there were only two exceptions. Enoch and Elijah. Everyone else went there, to await either the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, or their fate at the Great White Throne of Judgment.

4. I mentioned nothing about them praying to abraham. That was never in the equation, nor was it in my prose. I do not understand where you are going with this, but I am not liking anyone putting words in my mouth that I had never said.

5. The rich man was in torment. He was burning in flames of torment. Anyone who is on fire would want water. Even a drop would comfort him just a little, which is something that Abraham stated that could not happen. This is where he said that there is a vast gulf between the two places, and none can cross it. So, the rich man's mental state is what Jesus is illustrating here. He was being tormented by the flames of hell.

6. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Luke 16:25-26

Why don't they feel the flame? Jesus answered that one. There is a great bit of distance, a gulf, a barrier, that separated the two parts of that same place. Therefore, it is very possible for them to see each other, and even talk to each other. However, it would be impossible for each other to go from one place to the other.

The point in all of this?

there are those who reject the whole notion of Hell, where Christ warns in many instances about this terrible place, and even has a parable dedicated to the showing of a heavenly place that wasd never described before so that all may know that Hell is indeed real. (Besides, the only one who could describe this place is the one who knows this place. Since Jesus is God, it would only be natural for him to know all of the heavenly places, becasue before He came to earth, He lived there!)

I will say this. Those who reject the notion of Hell, reject the teachings of Lord jesus Himself, and I will go so far as to say that your faith is in vain. We are to believe every word that comes out of the Mouth of God. Jesus is not a liar, and those who say that He is, and those who reject hell are indeed calling Him a liar, are NOT Believers.

Even in the parable, Christ explains through the words of Abraham that Hell is an inescapable place. It is a place where ones who are held at one side of the sheol could not cross into the other side, whether they would be in Abraham's Bosom or in Hell. The person who was said to be in hell had no way of escaping, which was the reason why he cried out for help. His sins were not being burned in there. His soul was. The sin is attached to the person who decides to reject Lord Jesus and follow his own way. The end result is the fate of the rich man, and the fate of those who bow to the Beast. Death, Hell, Judgment, and the Lake of Fire. (Otherwise known as the second death).

ProjectPeter
Oct 24th 2007, 08:44 PM
As I said. God doesn't change. People do. Before we go to your request please show me where the doctrine of UR neccessitates a change in God.

I believe it is actually the doctrine of eternal torment which neccessitates a change in God.

According to that doctrine He now has pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is no longer merciful. His grace is not sufficient to save. His love comes to an end. His Law does not drive sinners to Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:3 ¶We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;
4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed -- for our testimony to you was believed.
11 To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power;
12 in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now what UR does is argue the use of the word eternal over age or ages. Problem is this... if it does mean "age" across the board... then apply the same to John 3:16. Totally changes the meaning of our hope there because if eternal is not eternal then what hope do we have? Just making it through this age in order to go through another age and then what? We have to continuously survive age to age to age. This is where a lot of the paganism enters into the belief of Origen and whatnot. There are many similarities with the belief of universalism to Catholic purgatory as has been mentioned before... although there is no purchasing souls. Naturally that was the Catholic form of raising monster storms of money... but it is still much the same. They gave folks hope that a person could live however on this earth... but in the end they could still wind up in heaven after death by some other means.

There is a difference between the soul and the flesh as most would agree. The flesh, made of dirt, is going to wither and die. God created man from dirt and one day that flesh will go back to dirt. It wasn't until God breathed into man that man lived. So the flesh was "dead" in and of itself. So it isn't our flesh that will be saved or die. It is our soul.

Ezekiel 18:1 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, `The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge´?
3 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
5 "But if a man is righteous, and practices justice and righteousness,
6 and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife, or approach a woman during her menstrual period --
7 if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry, and covers the naked with clothing,
8 if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity, and executes true justice between man and man,
9 if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully -- he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.

So it is simple. The soul that sins will die and the righteous will live. We're not talking physical life and death here. All flesh is going to die be you sinner or saint. We're talking the soul.

You mention often that "every knee will bow...." and therefore everyone will be saved. But just because someone realizes that God is God and subjects themselves to that fact... don't mean they are all saved. There are countless examples of that truth be told... but this is an example that hopefully makes the point.

In the Gospels we often see where demons themselves subjected themselves to Christ. They know His authority and they had to submit to that authority because of who He was.

Mark 5:1 And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes.
2 And when He had come out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him,
3 and he had his dwelling among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him anymore, even with a chain;
4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces, and no one was strong enough to subdue him.
5 And constantly night and day, among the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out and gashing himself with stones.
6 And seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him;
7 and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What do I have to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"
8 For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
9 And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
10 And he began to entreat Him earnestly not to send them out of the country.
11 Now there was a big herd of swine feeding there on the mountain.
12 And the demons entreated Him, saying, "Send us into the swine so that we may enter them."
13 And He gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea.

Here we have the demon in the man bowing down to Christ because they know who Christ is.

So yes... EVERY knee is going to bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord... but understand... the demons ALREADY know. That is exactly the point James made. The demons believe and tremble. Who doesn't know? Those now that don't believe. Those will die one day and they will stand before God one day and they will believe then. They will confess too. But their fate?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 ¶And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 ¶And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 ¶And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them,
4 and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

No where in Scripture will anyone be able to show that there will be new life AFTER the second death. It isn't in there. This is long so I'll continue in another post.

third hero
Oct 24th 2007, 09:13 PM
Pleroo,
Thank you for considering my post. I believe that I understand what you are saying, and because of this, I will teach you whjat purgatory is.

The whole notion of pergatory is that all those who confessed Christ, but died with unrepentant sins, must undergo a process in which their souls are "purified" of sin. This place is called purgatory, otherwise known as limbo. It was conceived by the writer of 2Maccabees and as far as literal evidence of it's existence is thorouoghly disproven ovr and over against by Scripture.

UR, from what you have wrote to me, is expanding this thought behind purgatory. It is the belief that all men will eventually be reconciled to God. This relegates both Hell and the Lake of Fire into an extended version of Purgatory. The people cast into these places will have their sins burned off, and at some point in eternity, they will be reconciled to God.

There is one great problem with that line of reasoning.

You know the famous verse of all Christiandom. John 3:16.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is a couple of things that are to be noted. Noticed that the word "Should" is there. This implies that belief should cause people to not perish, but have eternal life. However, we know that the word should implies that the statement leaves room for those who should have eternal life to lose it. Otherwise, it would have said, "shall not perish".

Also, Jesus makes a stipulation right here in that verse. The stipulation is belief in Him. Only those who believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This leaves no room for those who do not.

More to the point, Jesus did not end his prose here. He goes on.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17

Notice that the word "might" is there, instead of will, or is. This implies that the world may not be saved. The purpose of Christ being on earth was to bring the world, (now here's the key word here), THROUGH HIM, to God. The entire world does not have to be brought to God through Him, but those who are brought to God not through Him have a consequence, which Jesus, again, goes on to explain.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Those who do not believe are condemned. In the same way that a murdered convicted of a murder is condemned. Jesus furthers this point in the very next verse.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This clearly proves that the condemnation of the unbeliever is due to the fact that the unbeliever rejected the light, because he loved darkness, and his deeds (which means actions), were evil.

God can not live in the same space as evil. this is why Satan was thrown out of heaven. This is also the reason why Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden. This is why all mankind whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of Life is thrown into the Second death. There is no exception.

Those who are lost at death are lost eternally. There is no hope for them. This is why, in a few parables, Jesus describes the place that the wicked are hurled into is a place of weeping, and gnashing of teeth. Jesus hammered this point almost as much as He hammered the point of the need for us to believe in Him. They go side by side.

What UR is teaching is that Christ's sin offering was unnecesary, becasue all Mankind will have their sins burned off by Hell and the Lake of Fire. Then, at some point in eternity, God will bring them out of their pit of punishment and be reconciled to them. That simply says to me that Christ did not have to take away the sins of the world, because we will ultimately pay for them, and eventually, we will be let go, out of the Lake of Fire, to live with God.

This contradicts the whole story of the Bible, beginning with Adam and Eve. God did not relent on them, nor did He bring them back into the Garden of Eden. They were permanently exiled from that place, and Eden was taken from the earth. God deals with eternities. His punishments are permanent. There is no God taking back what He had done. This is why I can not believe in UR, nor can I call it a part of Christianity, because it begates the need for us to believe in a man who took our sins and bore them Himself. Jesus paid the price, so that I may believe, and live. He also paid the price so that the ultimate judgment against man can be complete. That judgment is exactly as He had phrased it in John 3:18.

I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but UR is pure blasphemy. It may hurt your feelings, but I am more concerned about your soul being saved by the redemptive sacrifice of Lord Jesus. Those who believe in UR are not Christians. I stand by that, and I suggest that those who refuse this assertion repent of their sin, and take on the truth.

ProjectPeter
Oct 24th 2007, 09:30 PM
There will be no more death. The reason there is no more death is because the second death is the final death. When Christ's reign is finished... then death is defeated because hell and the ungodly, unbelieving... will be cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.
29 ¶Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
31 I protest, brethren, by the boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE.
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

In the kingdom of God... there will be no death. There will be no sin. The lake of fire will be what it is however God has designed it to be. But when a soul sins... it dies. There is no place Scripturally that allows for life after the second death.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 09:33 PM
2 Thessalonians 1:3 ¶We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;
4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed -- for our testimony to you was believed.
11 To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power;
12 in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now what UR does is argue the use of the word eternal over age or ages. Problem is this... if it does mean "age" across the board... then apply the same to John 3:16. Totally changes the meaning of our hope there because if eternal is not eternal then what hope do we have? Just making it through this age in order to go through another age and then what? We have to continuously survive age to age to age. This is where a lot of the paganism enters into the belief of Origen and whatnot. There are many similarities with the belief of universalism to Catholic purgatory as has been mentioned before... although there is no purchasing souls. Naturally that was the Catholic form of raising monster storms of money... but it is still much the same. They gave folks hope that a person could live however on this earth... but in the end they could still wind up in heaven after death by some other means.

UR will note a difference between "aion" life and immortality.

The believer is granted both, life throughout the ages (the milliniel reign of Christ). Unbelievers will not enjoy this life.

Immortality is seperate from aion life, but the believer will receive both life thru the ages and immortality.


No where in Scripture will anyone be able to show that there will be new life AFTER the second death. It isn't in there. This is long so I'll continue in another post.

I'll provide the link where I addressed this because I'm pretty crunched on time. It is there, but not all see it.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50

Pleroo
Oct 24th 2007, 09:49 PM
I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but UR is pure blasphemy. It may hurt your feelings, but I am more concerned about your soul being saved by the redemptive sacrifice of Lord Jesus. Those who believe in UR are not Christians. I stand by that, and I suggest that those who refuse this assertion repent of their sin, and take on the truth.

Bless you, no! You haven't hurt my feelings at all. I so appreciate your concern and passion, both about another person's spiritual well-being and about upholding the Word of God.

I want to start toward the end of your post, because I think it's the most important point of yours that I can address, in that it is pivotal in to the whole discussion.


What UR is teaching is that Christ's sin offering was unnecesary, becasue all Mankind will have their sins burned off by Hell and the Lake of Fire. Then, at some point in eternity, God will bring them out of their pit of punishment and be reconciled to them. That simply says to me that Christ did not have to take away the sins of the world, because we will ultimately pay for them, and eventually, we will be let go, out of the Lake of Fire, to live with God.


Dear Third, if this is what UR was teaching I would condemn it as you do. As a matter of fact, before I actually took the time to listen to what UR folks were saying, this is exactly what I thought it did teach and I was sickened by it! I am forever grateful that God reached beyond my preconceived notions of UR and led me to study it indepth.

I'm afraid I have done a truly poor job of explaining my beliefs :blush: . I do not, in any way shape or form, believe that people will have their sins burned off, or that they are purified by the judgment they receive.

Let me affirm that I believe, as someone who holds that the Bible teaches universal reconciliation, that it is only by faith in Jesus Christ, through grace, that ANYone is saved and that Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection are the only means through which the world is reconciled to God. Before we go further, I hope you can see that you have misunderstood and miscategorized my beliefs. Fair enough? :)

third hero
Oct 24th 2007, 10:03 PM
all through out the history of man, people has used fear as a form of control. does anyone not feel that hell is just another misuse of fear to control the masses?
Rebellion is the heart of an evil man. Man has lived in a permanent state of rebellion since Adam. Is questioning the idea of a hell just another form of men seeking to continue his rebellion without facing any consequences?

I love it when people in rebellious states question authority. They tout that are expressing themselves, when all they are doing is joining the masses that act exactly like them. There is no such thing as expressing individualism when it comes to rebellion, for all of the rebels look the same, like kids without discipline. What these rebels do not understand is that every action of a person has a consequence.

There is no need for God to control anyone here. The fact that you asked this question is evidence that God did not create robots that are incapable of doing anything except what they are told to do. We are all thinking, willful, beings who can decide to choose our destinies.

Hell is a consequence, not a control mechanism. Hell is the result of living in rebellion against your Creator, God. God will not control anyone here. He will not force Himself on anyone. He will not control you or me. We, as beings capable of making decisions for ourselves, must decide to allow Him to teach us and lead us, or decide to rebel against Him. This choice, we all must make at one point or another.

Those who choose to serve Lord Jesus gain eternal life, New Jerusalem, and living with God. those who do not get hell, Judgment, and the Lake of Fire. The consequence is clear, and so are the rules. A man convicted of murder knew that he was not to kill for his own purposes, but he chose to do it anyway. That person receives the reward due him, either the death penalty, or life in prison. The same way it is with the court of law, so it is with all ouf us.

So, I pose to you this question. What is the true purpose of rebellion? Why question authority, unless that authority is wrong on an issue? How is rebelling against truth constituting individuality?

third hero
Oct 24th 2007, 10:05 PM
Let me affirm that I believe, as someone who holds that the Bible teaches universal reconciliation, that it is only by faith in Jesus Christ, through grace, that ANYone is saved and that Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection are the only means through which the world is reconciled to God. Before we go further, I hope you can see that you have misunderstood and miscategorized my beliefs. Fair enough? :)

Time for an explanation of your beliefs then. I need to know, in order to see why you are saying that what I have stated is incorrect. The ball is in your court.

Toolman
Oct 24th 2007, 10:48 PM
Howdy TM!

You make this Texan feel right at home :D


Quickly, the subject is the wedding of the King's son, the object being the invitation to the King's guests… Now looking at the application, it hits as to who will be accepted or who is worthy and why they are worthy to stay.


- So there are two rejections being presented… The first is the call to the King’s chosen guests…and they refused to attend. In fact they killed the King’s messengers

- The second is from those guests who have been rounded up – both good and bad, and from there, one who did not put on the given wedding garment

Now… to the conclusion and purpose… the King stated--> Bind this man [from the second group]… take him away… and cast him into outer darkness. – there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth…for many are called but few are chosen

Another parable with an equal conclusion is Matthew 13:47-50

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I hear you… so in your continued view, how do you deal with the Wrath of God as described in Revelation 14:9-11?

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Whether the fire and brimstone is literal, i.e. God physically tormenting people with actual fire or whether this symbolizes the same wrath spoken of in Romans 1 as God giving men over to their sinful will is the question.

I lean towards the latter but leave room for God's mystery there as I think the ages to come are a bit beyond what I can comprehend fully.

But I do have clear text when describes God's wrath revealed as Him "giving over" people to themselves, so that gives me good indicator to interpret Revelation.


You ever fish TM? :) If so, casting a line is sending the line out. Reeling the line in is pulling it in.... Casting doesn't bring in reeling... they are two separate events.

I see scripture stating many times to the cast out those who are 'evil', but never do I see them being brought back in... So those whom have been cast out --- they are out, as are the tares, and the goats, and the 5 maidens without oil, unless you can show that they were brought back.

Well there was my exegesis of Revelation where the nations and kings of the earth enter New Jerusalem after their LOF judgement.

There is of course Paul's explanation of being grafted back into the olive tree after being removed (Romans 11).

Sodom's restoration through Israel (Ezekiel 16).

And of course directly speaking:

Lamentations 3:31-32 - For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.




I got a couple more thoughts but I got jump on another call....

Hope all is well...

It is my friend and with your household as well I hope.

Pleroo
Oct 24th 2007, 11:55 PM
Time for an explanation of your beliefs then. I need to know, in order to see why you are saying that what I have stated is incorrect. The ball is in your court.

Thank you Third! It's not often that I'm given the opportunity to share what I believe about this. It will be good for me to have to articulate this succinctly for someone else's understanding. Have patience with me, and I'll do my best. :)


John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


We, as fallen people, live in condemnation until we are brought out of living under that condemnation. The only way to be brought out from under condemnation is to believe in Jesus Christ. The world is not waiting for judgment in this matter of being condemned, the judgment has already been passed and we are found guilty:

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. 13 Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. 14 Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known. 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Without faith in Christ, we are under the law, and the law condemns us.
Those who physically die without having come to saving faith in Christ will continue on in that condemnation until they too are brought to faith in Christ.


How does God accomplish bringing someone to faith? First he reveals their plight to them, as you have already said previously. He reveals to them their sinfulness. He shines light into their darkened hearts and shows them their condemned condition. He works the soil of their heart, preparing it, breaking it up, destroying their self-reliance, humbling them and making the soil good and fertile ground where the seed (the good news that Jesus Christ is their Savior) can take root.


It is Jesus Christ who draws [drags] all men to Himself. He drew you and He drew me, in spite of the fact that we were spiritually dead in our sins. He has conquered death, and I certainly do not believe that physical death can or will keep Him from continuing His work of drawing all men to Himself until His work has been completed and He delivers up the Kingdom to His Father (1 Cor 15:24).


Are the sins of those who die in unbelief burned off in some place of purgatory? Certainly not. Sin is taken away by the Lamb, who takes away the sin of the WORLD (Jn 1:29), who is the propitiation for the sin of the WHOLE WORLD (1 Jn 2:2). But will living in condemnation, under the law, after physical death be a terrible thing? I absolutely believe so.

Here is my personal belief, Third -- or I guess it would best be called not a belief but a supposition I have heard, and which resonates with my spirit. I know that living in condemnation in this life is a fearful and horrible thing. But here, we are to some degree, protected from that condemnation by our physical life because there is a veil between us and the spiritual realm. Before we come to faith in Christ, we are living in the spiritual realm of darkness, but we cannot fully perceive just what that means. Once physical death has come and that veil is ripped away from us, what remains is existance in the spiritual realm. People will see exactly the state that they are in without the Life of Jesus Christ. What a horrific and frightening thing. How quickly will their hard hearts be broken and their self-reliance and pride be cast down?! I don't know that it will be a matter any more of Christ wooing hearts, as He does here and now. I don't think He'll need to woo! Reality will come crashing down on them (just as the rich man in the parable of Lazarus) and they will see their need of a Savior and gratefully and joyfully receive Him. They will bow down and confess Him as their Lord.

Whether or not this supposition on HOW God will accomplish His will of saving all men is correct, I don't know. I do know this: Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, the spiritual presence of God. We who believe now have been born again not of our own will, but by the will of God. We were dead, incapable of responding to Him in any way, but He made us alive and made us able and willing to respond to His grace. I believe He will do the same for those who die in their sin, but I do not believe it will be a gentle experience, to say the least.

And the glorious end result?

1 Sam 2:6 The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.


Well, so much for succinct. I hope it's at least clear. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone, not through burning off sins in purgatory.

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 12:51 AM
Regarding this passage in particular and the book of revelation is general there is no finer piece of exegetical work, IMO, regarding a Universalist interpretation of this passage than Gregory MacDonald's book "The Evangelical Universalist".

He dedicates a complete chapter (Chapter Five) titled "A Universalist Interpretation of the Book of Revelation". It is an excellent, in-depth study of how the universalist interpretation fits well within the book of Revelation. I cannot recommend this book enough nor will I be able to do this subject the justice that MacDonald does in his work just because of the sheer breadth of his work.

Nevertheless, I will share highlights that will hopefully give you an overall understanding of how a Universalist would understand the 2 damnation texts of Revelation.

The Nations

Revelation 15:2-4 is seen as the post event that occurs following Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 15:2-4 - And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

“ Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

In Revelation the saints (the Church) are never identified with the term "the nations" but are always contrasted and distinguished from "the nations" as those "who have been redeemed FROM the nations" (Rev. 5:9, Rev. 7:9).

Yet here we see in Revelation 15:4 the clear statement that "the nations" shall come and worship before God. This is the same "the nations" which is referred to in Revelation 14:8.

And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

John does not here, in 15:4, use the term "people FROM all nations" (i.e. the Saints/Church) but uses the term "the nations" (i.e. those opposed to God who suffer His wrath in chapter 14).

The greek word here used for "worship" is "proskuneo" and is always used in Revelation for a voluntary worship of either God or the Beast and to argue for a forced worship is unwarranted by context of the passage or the book.

This claim is further supported by chapters 21-22 of Revelation where we read that after the final judgement, where those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire (20:10-15), "the nations" would walk by the light of the New Jerusalem (21:24), would bring their worship into it (21:26) and will be healed by the fruits of the tree of life (22:2). I will address that a bit more in-depth below.

Okay... this is simply a different vision explaining the last days. Follow this... because what McDonald does here is simply find a passage and runs with it and totally leaves the context of the passage.

Go back in chapter 12 and you see where John starts out about seeing another sign. That goes for three chapters. Then in 15... another sign. Much like the many visions of Daniel that all told the same thing just in different ways.



Revelation 15

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.
2 ¶And I saw, as it were, a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
3 And they sang the song of Moses the bond-servant of God and the song of the Lamb, saying, ¶"Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the nations.
4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE THEE, FOR THY RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."
5 ¶After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,
6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their breasts with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Okay... these seven angels are given seven bowls of the wrath of God... so continue

Revelation 16

1 And I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth."
2 ¶And the first angel went and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore upon the men who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
3 ¶And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
4 ¶And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous art Thou, who art and who wast, O Holy One, because Thou didst judge these things;
6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments."
8 ¶And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they did not repent, so as to give Him glory.
10 ¶And the fifth angel poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 ¶And the sixth angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ( "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called HarMagedon.
17 ¶And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

This is all speaking of the bowls of wrath given to the seven angels in the previous chapter. Now... go back and read what it says there.

15 ( "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called HarMagedon.

He hasn't come back yet. That passage in the 15th verse that he is using for "the nations" is simply speaking of the souls praising God SINGING... All nations SHALL come... it was time... the seven bowls have been issued. Time is coming to an end. It is not during the New Jerusalem.

“ Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

Chapter 14 has nothing to do with 15. Chapter 15 begins a new vision.

jiggyfly
Oct 25th 2007, 01:01 AM
Posted by ProjectPeter> All that being said still brings me back to "so what?" It don't much matter what Origen or even Gregory said. Old dead men with old dead writings that most Protestants would reject without much thought today. And honestly... good reason.

Then the same is true of Martin Luther, William Tyndale, Charles Spurgeon, Joseph Parker, A.W. Pink, A.B. Simpson, A.W. Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, and soon Billy Graham.

Ofcourse they would reject it, isn't that what protestants do and without much thinking?:lol:

1Corinthians 15:22&23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Romans 5:12-18
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So which Adam is more powerful, you can interpret "all" how ever you want, but the simple truth here is the "all' that died in Adam and the "all" that are made alive in Christ are the same "all".

John said that "God is Love".
1Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. 6 It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

I know when I was first faced with these scriptures I resisted and had the same attitude of the prodigal's brother and that of Jonah and HolySpirit revealed it to me and I repented ( I changed my way of thinking). It required more than a shift or adjustment to my religious paradigm, it required abondonment. But isn't that the crux of being a disciple of Christ?

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 01:28 AM
Then the same is true of Martin Luther, William Tyndale, Charles Spurgeon, Joseph Parker, A.W. Pink, A.B. Simpson, A.W. Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, and soon Billy Graham.

Ofcourse they would reject it, isn't that what protestants do and without much thinking?:lol:It would do many well to do that sure enough.




1Corinthians 15:22&23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Romans 5:12-18
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So which Adam is more powerful, you can interpret "all" how ever you want, but the simple truth here is the "all' that died in Adam and the "all" that are made alive in Christ are the same "all".

John said that "God is Love".
1Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. 6 It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

I know when I was first faced with these scriptures I resisted and had the same attitude of the prodigal's brother and that of Jonah and HolySpirit revealed it to me and I repented ( I changed my way of thinking). It required more than a shift or adjustment to my religious paradigm, it required abondonment. But isn't that the crux of being a disciple of Christ?Truly amazing. Read on please because this is just another pick a verse and make it into something while totally ignoring the entire letter written.

Paul goes on in that very next chapter clarifying who this person justified righteous is...

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Paul ain't talking about folks that have died in their sin or who would die in their sin.

jiggyfly
Oct 25th 2007, 01:51 AM
It would do many well to do that sure enough.

Truly amazing. Read on please because this is just another pick a verse and make it into something while totally ignoring the entire letter written.

Paul goes on in that very next chapter clarifying who this person justified righteous is...

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

Paul ain't talking about folks that have died in their sin or who would die in their sin.

So then only those in the body of Christ were condemned because of Adam?

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 02:01 AM
So then only those in the body of Christ were condemned because of Adam?Paul explains that clearly earlier in this very same letter... ALL men are sinners. Paul also makes it clear that not all that are Israel are Israel... you have those of the bondwoman and those of the free. You have those that are slaves to obedience... or slaves to righteousness. He gets into that again later in this letter as well. All men were sinner regardless of their deed. You're born that way. All men are still born that way. One will remain that way as well... until they believe and are born again. Jesus, through his obedience became that way for the very same ALL men. Nowhere in there does Paul allude that ALL men will in fact come to Christ... he actually makes it clear that ALL won't.

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 02:23 AM
Okay... this is simply a different vision explaining the last days. Follow this... because what McDonald does here is simply find a passage and runs with it and totally leaves the context of the passage.

Actually he doesn't and dedicates a whole chapter to Revelation with indepth exegesis, which as I said in my post I could not do justice in this medium given the sheer breadth of his work. I only hit the highlights.


Go back in chapter 12 and you see where John starts out about seeing another sign. That goes for three chapters. Then in 15... another sign. Much like the many visions of Daniel that all told the same thing just in different ways.

Revelation 15

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.
2 ¶And I saw, as it were, a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had come off victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
3 And they sang the song of Moses the bond-servant of God and the song of the Lamb, saying, ¶"Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the nations.
4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE THEE, FOR THY RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."
5 ¶After these things I looked, and the temple of the tabernacle of testimony in heaven was opened,
6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their breasts with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

Okay... these seven angels are given seven bowls of the wrath of God... so continue

Revelation 16

1 And I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth."
2 ¶And the first angel went and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore upon the men who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.
3 ¶And the second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.
4 ¶And the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous art Thou, who art and who wast, O Holy One, because Thou didst judge these things;
6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments."
8 ¶And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they did not repent, so as to give Him glory.
10 ¶And the fifth angel poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 ¶And the sixth angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ( "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called HarMagedon.
17 ¶And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

This is all speaking of the bowls of wrath given to the seven angels in the previous chapter. Now... go back and read what it says there.

15 ( "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called HarMagedon.

He hasn't come back yet. That passage in the 15th verse that he is using for "the nations" is simply speaking of the souls praising God SINGING... All nations SHALL come... it was time... the seven bowls have been issued. Time is coming to an end. It is not during the New Jerusalem.

“ Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

Chapter 14 has nothing to do with 15. Chapter 15 begins a new vision.

Not sure where you got lost but the exegesis was from Revelation 21 which clearly speaks of the Nations and the kings of the earth entering New Jerusalem:

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

Pretty clear to me that they are entering the New Jerusalem cause that is what it clearly says. This IS during the New Jerusalem.

MacDonald goes into much more exegetical depth but just the above makes it fairly clear that it most certainly is New Jerusalem in the context of Revelation 21 that the nations and kings enter through the never closed gates.

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 02:31 AM
Paul explains that clearly earlier in this very same letter... ALL men are sinners. Paul also makes it clear that not all that are Israel are Israel... you have those of the bondwoman and those of the free. You have those that are slaves to obedience... or slaves to righteousness. He gets into that again later in this letter as well. All men were sinner regardless of their deed. You're born that way. All men are still born that way. One will remain that way as well... until they believe and are born again.

As a side note that leaves you in that prickly pear of either God makes allowances for sinners who do not believe to be saved or He damns infants to hell. Can't have it both ways but I realize that is somewhat of a rabbit trail but nonetheless one of the problems for original sin and eternal torment.

Nevertheless, what is clear is that a person can be translated from sinner to saint, bondwoman to free, non-israel to grafted in, light to dark.

So, those states are dynamic not static.

jiggyfly
Oct 25th 2007, 02:35 AM
Paul explains that clearly earlier in this very same letter... ALL men are sinners. Paul also makes it clear that not all that are Israel are Israel... you have those of the bondwoman and those of the free. You have those that are slaves to obedience... or slaves to righteousness. He gets into that again later in this letter as well. All men were sinner regardless of their deed. You're born that way. All men are still born that way. One will remain that way as well... until they believe and are born again. Jesus, through his obedience became that way for the very same ALL men. Nowhere in there does Paul allude that ALL men will in fact come to Christ... he actually makes it clear that ALL won't.

While all men will not be a part of the the body of Christ , the church or Bride of Christ, all men will come to Christ in time and Paul makes this very clear, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and all things will be reconciled to Father through Jesus Christ

I guess this is where we disagree. You say "all" doesn't always mean "all" and that Paul really meant "all men died in Adam but some are made alive in Christ. Did Jesus say that if He was lifted up He would draw some men unto Himself? Is it possible that I am not the only one picking and choosing here?

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 25th 2007, 02:47 AM
Semi-Tortured;

Hi, there.

I think I know where you're coming from, but please, correct me if I'm wrong:

I will trust you when you say that you DO believe in salvation by grace, but for some reason, you are doubting your own conversion. It's not that you believe that you will get to Heaven by your works, it's that you're not sure if you trust your own salvation experience. You are unsure about your relationship with Him. You think there might be something missing, or perhaps you don't know if you have FULLY SURRENDERED yourself to Him...in other words, you trust that GOD can save you, but you're not sure if you have met the basic criteria...not in your works, but in your own soul.

You are not alone....I have had these thoughts as well. There is really only ONE SOLUTION to your predicament, and I'm really not sure if you will think it sufficient, but really, I think it's the ONLY thing that will help you with this.
That thing is FAITH...absolute, blind FAITH....like what the apostle Paul describes. Basically, you need to put aside all of your doubts, and walk IN FAITH that you ARE saved. In your situation, at least for the time being, I think that you need to reason with your head rather than your heart. What you are experiencing is a lie from the pit of hell...the enemy KNOWS what your weaknesses are, and if you start to give into them, by doubting your faith, then he will just keep harassing you.

What you are doing, even though I know you do not mean to, is distrusting God. You REALLY need to trust God UNCONDITIONALLY in this. This is the time when you just have to BE STRONG in your faith, and ask the Lord to increase your strength. Satan is playing head games with you, my friend...don't let him win!!!

There is one thing that helped me when these questions arose, ST, and perhaps it will help you. It is basically a line of reasoning that the Holy Spirit showed me when I was having these doubts:
Okay, we all know that the Lord would never lie to us, or withold information.
We also know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for us...He died so that we could have "life...and have it more abundantly."
Jesus' death was agonizing and torturing for Him. Not only was it physically torturing, but it was also emotionally and spiritually torturing, because He took on the sin of the world. Not only that, but even the Holy Spirit left Him when He asked "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me." That must have been INCOMPREHENSIBLY painful for Him. It was a HORRIBLE death, and I cannot believe that He would undergo such torture just so that He could turn people away who truly loved Him. Jesus would not have subjected Himself to such a torturous, degrading death JUST so that He could make it impossible to get into Heaven.
"God is not willing that anyone should perish." Because He loves you so much, He has ALREADY made it possible for you to get into Heaven. As I said, Jesus would not have died just so that he could turn the faithful away. You really just need to focus on God's sufficiency rather than your own shortcomings.
On the contrary, Christ died so that it would be EASIER for us to have eternal life....and I mean easier by the standard of the Law. Following Christ is never easy, but that's why we have the Holy Spirit to guide us.

For a long time, I convinced myself that it was a lot more difficult than it ACTUALLY IS to get into Heaven. I wasn't sure if merely trusting on Him was enough, and I wasnt sure if I loved Him enough to merit my salvation. The truth is, none of us can ever love Him enough, but God is a just God, and will judge us according to how much of OURSELVES we loved Him with.
He will not cast someone away based on legalities. He looks at the WHOLE heart, and this is what He judges.

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 02:54 AM
As a side note that leaves you in that prickly pear of either God makes allowances for sinners who do not believe to be saved or He damns infants to hell. Can't have it both ways but I realize that is somewhat of a rabbit trail but nonetheless one of the problems for original sin and eternal torment.

Nevertheless, what is clear is that a person can be translated from sinner to saint, bondwoman to free, non-israel to grafted in, light to dark.

So, those states are dynamic not static.It ain't sticky for me at all! I tell folks all the time here... Bible doesn't make a strong case for the idea of "age of accountability." He's just and that sometimes has to be enough for us. Regardless of what we would like to think. And I've also made the case (as unpopular as it is) that those who haven't heard (don't have the Law) but follow the law in their heart then they are just as "circumcised of heart" as the one that does and follows it. Naturally Romans 2 is what I am speaking of there. Last time we had that discussion I also pointed out that I've no doubt, like with Cornelius, that if a person truly believes and seeks God... He'll get them the message of His Son even if He has to send an angel to do it. But yeah... that's another thread probably. But not sticky at all of someone sticks to the Scripture and let's it go from there. It ain't a bad thing to say... you know... Bible doesn't say one way or the other so I can't tell you for certain one way or the other. God is Just... that is what I do know. Keeps you out of those prickly pears. ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 25th 2007, 03:06 AM
While all men will not be a part of the the body of Christ , the church or Bride of Christ, all men will come to Christ in time and Paul makes this very clear, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and all things will be reconciled to Father through Jesus Christ

I guess this is where we disagree. You say "all" doesn't always mean "all" and that Paul really meant "all men died in Adam but some are made alive in Christ. Did Jesus say that if He was lifted up He would draw some men unto Himself? Is it possible that I am not the only one picking and choosing here?Every knee bowing and every tongue confessing and all things being reconciled... doesn't mean that all are saved. Salvation comes to the one that has endured to the end. In that it is speaking of the "end of life (physical). The race only goes on here in the nasty now and now... after that the race is over.

Tons of places I can go... but I shall do that tomorrow. As of now... I am about an hour late on my beauty sleep and missing an hour of that... it's bad! Really bad! I can't afford any more loss! ;)

ChristianKid37
Oct 25th 2007, 08:29 AM
This is refering the the video on Hell.

Ok...did it not bother anyone when Tim said to the audience "God hates you!" "God hates you more than some of the people who are in hell" ??

Honestly, I had to laugh when I heard this...I cant imagine going up to an unconverted person and being like, "Hey, God hates your guts and He is gonna be glorified whether you get saved or burn in hell...so choose Christ!"

John 3:16 anyone?

I mean...seriously...

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 25th 2007, 11:59 AM
You make this Texan feel right at home :D



Whether the fire and brimstone is literal, i.e. God physically tormenting people with actual fire or whether this symbolizes the same wrath spoken of in Romans 1 as God giving men over to their sinful will is the question.

I lean towards the latter but leave room for God's mystery there as I think the ages to come are a bit beyond what I can comprehend fully.

But I do have clear text when describes God's wrath revealed as Him "giving over" people to themselves, so that gives me good indicator to interpret Revelation.



Well there was my exegesis of Revelation where the nations and kings of the earth enter New Jerusalem after their LOF judgement.

There is of course Paul's explanation of being grafted back into the olive tree after being removed (Romans 11).

Sodom's restoration through Israel (Ezekiel 16).

And of course directly speaking:

Lamentations 3:31-32 - For men are not cast off
by the Lord forever.
Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.




It is my friend and with your household as well I hope.


I’m beginning to note the difference between our hermeneutics. I see scripture needing to be viewed from a grammatical historical method, holding to a literal directive at most occasions, and applying the allegories of scripture when allegories are literally presented.


So… Tex, :) do you think God has various wraths for various times/events? Could God have wrath set for eternity – which is hell? For eschatological wrath – which is the Day of the Lord? For cataclysmic wrath – which is like the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? For consequential wrath – which is the principal of sowing and reaping? For wrath of abandonment – which is your Roman’s 1 example of removing restraint and letting people go to their sins? Could God’s holiness demand replies of His wrath to various degrees, just as you would display various degrees of anger based on various events within your life…. [The purpose here is not to compare you to God, but to compare various responses to various events,]

Scripture show us that God is both day and night, yesterday and today, here and everywhere, and pleased and displeased…all at the same time. We are told that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God, yet we are also told that His grace in love is irresistible.


So I guess our hermeneutics build a different view of who God is. The times and events of Revelation are future, yet portions were also for the times of AD70. Christ will be back to rule and rein, so thus not stated as an allegory, but literally.


Then there is a difference between the usage of ALL, EVERY, WORLD. Do those words include the strength of entirety or relativity? Does one context of the word apply to all contexts of the word, or does context and historical purpose also play a roll in applying a best understanding?

Does cool, sick, ill, bad, and groovy have a universal meaning and understanding and is it time preserved -- and/or does it’s use been given other purposes generationally along with it universal meaning? My point is 'all' can mean total and yet not totality, based of context, word placement, and historical significance.

This is my approach and this is why our difference…. For Scripture shows literal degrees of God’s wrath throughout biblical history as well as contemporary history, a future wrath --- and yes, an eternal wrath…thus the need to share the Gospel to every one.

To share the Love of Christ along with the wrath of God against sin, to share the hopelessness of self in trying to please God and atoning for sin without His Son... to repent from sin now, and live for Christ as His bond-servant now… now…. For today is the day of salvation…for tomorrow will be too late for many.

Toolman, I need to do some traveling today but Lord willing I will return to follow-up with you again….

Have a great day a God directs...

For God's Glory...

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 01:48 PM
It ain't sticky for me at all! I tell folks all the time here... Bible doesn't make a strong case for the idea of "age of accountability." He's just and that sometimes has to be enough for us. Regardless of what we would like to think. And I've also made the case (as unpopular as it is) that those who haven't heard (don't have the Law) but follow the law in their heart then they are just as "circumcised of heart" as the one that does and follows it. Naturally Romans 2 is what I am speaking of there. Last time we had that discussion I also pointed out that I've no doubt, like with Cornelius, that if a person truly believes and seeks God... He'll get them the message of His Son even if He has to send an angel to do it. But yeah... that's another thread probably. But not sticky at all of someone sticks to the Scripture and let's it go from there. It ain't a bad thing to say... you know... Bible doesn't say one way or the other so I can't tell you for certain one way or the other. God is Just... that is what I do know. Keeps you out of those prickly pears. ;)

Well, when I say sticky I mean that you can't give an answer within your theology.

You've already stated that all people are born sinners and that no one will be saved until they believe on Christ and are born again:


All men were sinner regardless of their deed. You're born that way. All men are still born that way. One will remain that way as well... until they believe and are born again.

That puts you in the place of condemning all infants to hell, because obviously infants are unable to hear and comprehend the Gospel from preaching and they obviously aren't seeking God like Cornelius.

So, because of your theology you just have to say, well we know God is just. Is it just for him to condemn sinners who don't believe? Well then, not much hope given there.

Obviously your appeal to Romans 2 and those who don't know the Law yet do it are justified doesn't cut it because Paul clearly states that no flesh shall be justified by the Law and the Law condemns the whole world as guilty. So there ain't no such thing as someone who is justified by the Law. That's Paul's point.

So, the doctrine does leave questions unanswered. Which is ok. Nothing wrong with mystery, this is God we're talking about, but lets be honest and recognize where the doctrine has shortcomings.

UR does not present this problem, because God IS just and physical death is no barrier for Him to present the Gospel and for those who hear it to believe on Christ. His way of saving does not change, all are saved through faith in Christ alone.

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 01:57 PM
I’m beginning to note the difference between our hermeneutics. I see scripture needing to be viewed from a grammatical historical method, holding to a literal directive at most occasions, and applying the allegories of scripture when allegories are literally presented.

So… Tex, :) do you think God has various wraths for various times/events? Could God have wrath set for eternity – which is hell? For eschatological wrath – which is the Day of the Lord? For cataclysmic wrath – which is like the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? For consequential wrath – which is the principal of sowing and reaping? For wrath of abandonment – which is your Roman’s 1 example of removing restraint and letting people go to their sins? Could God’s holiness demand replies of His wrath to various degrees, just as you would display various degrees of anger based on various events within your life…. [The purpose here is not to compare you to God, but to compare various responses to various events,

Scripture show us that God is both day and night, yesterday and today, here and everywhere, and pleased and displeased…all at the same time. We are told that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God, yet we are also told that His grace in love is irresistible.

So I guess our hermeneutics build a different view of who God is. The times and events of Revelation are future, yet portions were also for the times of AD70. Christ will be back to rule and rein, so thus not stated as an allegory, but literally.

Then there is a difference between the usage of ALL, EVERY, WORLD. Do those words include the strength of entirety or relativity? Does one context of the word apply to all contexts of the word, or does context and historical purpose also play a roll in applying a best understanding?

Does cool, sick, ill, bad, and groovy have a universal meaning and understanding and is it time preserved -- and/or does it’s use been given other purposes generationally along with it universal meaning? My point is 'all' can mean total and yet not totality, based of context, word placement, and historical significance.

This is my approach and this is why our difference…. For Scripture shows literal degrees of God’s wrath throughout biblical history as well as contemporary history, a future wrath --- and yes, an eternal wrath…thus the need to share the Gospel to every one.

To share the Love of Christ along with the wrath of God against sin, to share the hopelessness of self in trying to please God and atoning for sin without His Son... to repent from sin now, and live for Christ as His bond-servant now… now…. For today is the day of salvation…for tomorrow will be too late for many.

Toolman, I need to do some traveling today but Lord willing I will return to follow-up with you again….

Have a great day a God directs...

For God's Glory...

RBG,

I actually don't see alot of anything I would disagree with in the above, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are speaking of a Law/Gospel hermaneutic.

This is my approach to biblical understanding and I think it goes all the way back to the garden and the 2 trees, which IMO represent Law and Grace.

Where I think we will differ is that I believe the covenant of Law is temporal and is for a purpose of bringing about the establishment of the covenant of Grace.

So, I would disagree that wrath is eternal. Wrath, punishment, discipline, judgements all have there purpose in driving people to the Gospel. God's anger last but a moment but His mercy endures forever.
I believe there will actually be a point in time where sin and death will truly be destoyed, all of creation will be redeemed, Christ will submit His reign to the Father and God will be all in all.

I think that is where we differ in the above.

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 02:33 PM
This is refering the the video on Hell.

Ok...did it not bother anyone when Tim said to the audience "God hates you!" "God hates you more than some of the people who are in hell" ??

Honestly, I had to laugh when I heard this...I cant imagine going up to an unconverted person and being like, "Hey, God hates your guts and He is gonna be glorified whether you get saved or burn in hell...so choose Christ!"

John 3:16 anyone?

I mean...seriously...

There is a long history of this type of preaching in Western Protestantism:

Jonathan Edwards - Sinners in the hands of an angry God:

"The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the bow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire: he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire."

This is regarded as one of the greatest American sermons and the beginning point of the "Great Awakening".

I however, do not find that type of language or sentiment from the apostle's preaching or from Jesus' parables or teaching.

Something worth noting IMO.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 03:00 PM
How does God accomplish bringing someone to faith? First he reveals their plight to them, as you have already said previously. He reveals to them their sinfulness. He shines light into their darkened hearts and shows them their condemned condition. He works the soil of their heart, preparing it, breaking it up, destroying their self-reliance, humbling them and making the soil good and fertile ground where the seed (the good news that Jesus Christ is their Savior) can take root.


It is Jesus Christ who draws [drags] all men to Himself. He drew you and He drew me, in spite of the fact that we were spiritually dead in our sins. He has conquered death, and I certainly do not believe that physical death can or will keep Him from continuing His work of drawing all men to Himself until His work has been completed and He delivers up the Kingdom to His Father (1 Cor 15:24). Pleroo, aren't you actually suggesting that Jesus Christ drags only some men in this life to Himself in the above? If Jesus Christ were to drag all men to Himself, then wouldn't all men be saved? If all men are spiritually dead then the result of Jesus dragging all men should be equal for all men, or as you suggested, in spite of man's condition or disposition to being dragged. Unless you are suggesting that man cooperates somehow with Jesus in this dragging. Then in that case, we can only assume that Jesus only has the desire or power to drag some of us, leaving the uncooperative ones until after death.
Here is my personal belief, Third -- or I guess it would best be called not a belief but a supposition I have heard, and which resonates with my spirit. I know that living in condemnation in this life is a fearful and horrible thing.For the spiritually dead why is living in condemnation in this life a fearful and horrible thing? What would resonate with someone who is spiritually dead? So, you must be talking about someone who is being dragged here. Then they feel the condemnation. I am OK with that, and yes, that is a fearful and horrible thing. But, once someone gets to that point, they should be saved, right? There should be no successful resisting of salvation after we are no longer spiritually dead, right?
But here, we are to some degree, protected from that condemnation by our physical life because there is a veil between us and the spiritual realm. Before we come to faith in Christ, we are living in the spiritual realm of darkness, but we cannot fully perceive just what that means.Pleroo, it seems you are suggesting that some of us "get it" (understand it, see through the veil, are smarter, have a better heart, whatever the operative phrase here is) in this life and that some can't quite get it, or resist getting it, or God doesn't desire for them to get it, or that God doesn't have the power for them to get it. I think you are suggesting that all are made alive (no longer spiritually dead) in this life but some are not saved for one of the reasons above.

I'm not quite sure how to figure this. In your belief, does man have to cooperate with God in salvation or is it God 100%? It is OK for you to say that man cooperates with God 100% of the time in your answer. Let's try to break this down some.

If its God 100% (or cooperation 100%) and all men aren't saved in this life (I am not talking about forever here, just in this life), then God does not desire "all" men to be saved in this life. Right? Jesus then only drags some to salvation, but not all, and is successful 100% of the time.

If man must cooperate with God in salvation and God draws all men, then some men do not cooperate with God in salvation since all men are not saved. Right? Jesus then draws all men but man either resists or cooperates.

That really winds down to this question. If one is not saved at the end of this life, is the reason God's or the person's?
Once physical death has come and that veil is ripped away from us, what remains is existance in the spiritual realm. People will see exactly the state that they are in without the Life of Jesus Christ. What a horrific and frightening thing. How quickly will their hard hearts be broken and their self-reliance and pride be cast down?!So death brings spiritual birth to those who were spiritually dead? I don't understand how one of these spirits would know it was because they didn't accept Jesus while living. Perhaps you are suggesting that all were made alive (were drawn, dragged, by Jesus) in this life, but some resist, but death strips that resistance.
I don't know that it will be a matter any more of Christ wooing hearts, as He does here and now. I don't think He'll need to woo! Reality will come crashing down on them (just as the rich man in the parable of Lazarus) and they will see their need of a Savior and gratefully and joyfully receive Him. They will bow down and confess Him as their Lord.If Christ doesn't woo them, how do they become spiritually alive? So in this case we must go with the idea that something passes from this life to the afterlife which then becomes apparent because we see things as they are but rejected while alive. Or, in the case of still not being spiritually alive, Christ would woo them and drag them to salvation in the after life, this being His desired time to do this.
Whether or not this supposition on HOW God will accomplish His will of saving all men is correct, I don't know. I do know this: Unless a man is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, the spiritual presence of God. We who believe now have been born again not of our own will, but by the will of God. We were dead, incapable of responding to Him in any way, but He made us alive and made us able and willing to respond to His grace.OK, so this clears it up completely. Since we know that all men are not saved in this life, you believe that Jesus does not draw all men in this life and that God does not desire for all men to be saved in this life.
I believe He will do the same for those who die in their sin, but I do not believe it will be a gentle experience, to say the least.Why would it not be a gentle experience? God decides not to save them in this life so that he can be rough with them in the after life, only to then save them?

If I can sum up what you seem to believe (not a complete list, just what for the topic at hand):

God does the saving in this life selectively and there isn't an "offer" of any sort to all mankind.
Pleroo (or one who finds themself saved) is one of those that God has chosen to save in this life.
If some aren't saved in this life it is because God has decided or not desired them to be saved (in this life).
All of those that God will not save in this life God has decided and desires to save in the afterlife.
God has decided and desires to save all, in His time.If one believed 1, 2, & 3, then belief in 4 and 5 would not really be consequential in this life regarding salvation. Whether 4 and 5 was true or not would have no value to anyone that wasn't already saved. The value of 4 and 5 to the saved would be to "know the truth" or "have their eyes opened" to the love of God because of the apparent contradiction of holding belief in 1, 2, & 3.

So, in the end, for me personally and trying to work through what you have presented, I have less of a problem with 4 & 5 then I do with 1, 2, & 3. To me it seems that 4 & 5 is just a fully leveraged position of 1, 2, & 3. The spiritually dead aren't going to get it anyway and those born again are already born again so why not see the unfolding of God's plan and love in a better light that does away with contradictions? I suggest that the contradictions (from my point of view) in 1, 2, & 3 point to something else than 4 & 5.

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 03:51 PM
If I can sum up what you seem to believe (not a complete list, just what for the topic at hand):

God does the saving in this life selectively and there isn't an "offer" of any sort to all mankind.
Pleroo (or one who finds themself saved) is one of those that God has chosen to save in this life.
If some aren't saved in this life it is because God has decided or not desired them to be saved (in this life).
All of those that God will not save in this life God has decided and desires to save in the afterlife.
God has decided and desires to save all, in His time.If one believed 1, 2, & 3, then belief in 4 and 5 would not really be consequential in this life. Whether 4 and 5 was true or not would have no value to anyone that wasn't already saved. The value of 4 and 5 to the saved would be to "know the truth" or "have their eyes opened" to the love of God because of the apparent contradiction of holding belief in 1, 2, & 3.

So, in the end, for me personally and trying to work through what you have presented, I have less of a problem with 4 & 5 then I do with 1, 2, & 3. To me it seems that 4 & 5 is just a fully leveraged position of 1, 2, & 3. The spiritually dead aren't going to get it anyway and those born again are already born again so why not see the unfolding of God's plan and love in a better light that does away with contradictions? I suggest that the contradictions (from my point of view) in 1, 2, & 3 point to something else than 4 & 5.

WIA,

I just wanted to share that just as within the camp of those who hold to eternal torment you have those who are more reformed in their soteriolgy and those who are more free-will/arminian in their soteriology, same is true in the camp of those who hold to UR.

Tom Talbott, the author of "The Inescapable Love of God", is a proponent of "free will" and its essential role in salvation. Here (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html) is an article he wrote about that very topic.

So, while both camps have tension over HOW God does the saving (reformed or arminian) that is somewhat of a side issue IMO. Not that its not important and Talbott, IMO, brings up some fantastic points. But it is something worth noting that is debated in either position, UR or eternal torment.

FWIW.

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 04:27 PM
If I can sum up what you seem to believe (not a complete list, just what for the topic at hand):

God does the saving in this life selectively and there isn't an "offer" of any sort to all mankind.
Pleroo (or one who finds themself saved) is one of those that God has chosen to save in this life.
If some aren't saved in this life it is because God has decided or not desired them to be saved (in this life).
All of those that God will not save in this life God has decided and desires to save in the afterlife.
God has decided and desires to save all, in His time.Hey! Where were you when I was trying to be succinct?! :lol: Thanks WIA. That does sum up my beliefs fairly well, although from what I can tell you went rather astray at several points in the rest of your post. But, since this seems to be your final analysis, I'll only address this.

I will say this because, to me, it is important. If God has chosen to save only some in this lifetime, it is for His greater purpose and does not make those who He saves now "better" or "more special". Just as He chose a lowly, unworthy nation in the OT to play a particular role in carrying out His will, He now chooses lowly, unworthy people in this age. And I believe the purpose He is preparing us for is to serve Him and serve others in this age and in the age(s) to come, taking part in His plan of the restoration of all things.



If one believed 1, 2, & 3, then belief in 4 and 5 would not really be consequential in this life. Whether 4 and 5 was true or not would have no value to anyone that wasn't already saved. The value of 4 and 5 to the saved would be to "know the truth" or "have their eyes opened" to the love of God because of the apparent contradiction of holding belief in 1, 2, & 3.

I'm a bit lost with what you're saying -- my fault, I know. I don't consider having a fuller understanding of the scope of the love of God to be inconsequential in this life, if that's what you're saying. Not to believers certainly and as far as to those who aren't already saved -- as I said, God prepares hearts to receive their Savior. The preaching of all of God's Word is a part of that preparation. So to say that the hearing of any part of that Word could ever be inconsequential to ANYONE is, I believe, completely unfounded and an unworthy statement.



So, in the end, for me personally and trying to work through what you have presented, I have less of a problem with 4 & 5 then I do with 1, 2, & 3. To me it seems that 4 & 5 is just a fully leveraged position of 1, 2, & 3. The spiritually dead aren't going to get it anyway

(We have all been spiritually dead, but yes, unless God prepares the heart to "get it", we won't.)


and those born again are already born again so why not see the unfolding of God's plan and love in a better light that does away with contradictions?

God does seem to have created us with a natural propensity to be uneasy with that which contradicts itself. Seems that might be His way of making sure that we would dig for the answers that He wishes to reveal to us.


I suggest that the contradictions (from my point of view) in 1, 2, & 3 point to something else than 4 & 5.

I can only say what I believe is the truth according to Scripture -- that God desires all to be saved, and therefore all will be saved (if my understanding of HOW He will accomplish His will is wrong or incomplete, it doesn't change those 2 basic facts) -- and let God use it as He sees fit.

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 04:42 PM
WIA,

I just wanted to share that just as within the camp of those who hold to eternal torment you have those who are more reformed in their soteriolgy and those who are more free-will/arminian in their soteriology, same is true in the camp of those who hold to UR.

Tom Talbott, the author of "The Inescapable Love of God", is a proponent of "free will" and its essential role in salvation. Here (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html)is an article he wrote about that very topic.

So, while both camps have tension over HOW God does the saving (reformed or arminian) that is somewhat of a side issue IMO. Not that its not important and Talbott, IMO, brings up some fantastic points. But it is something worth noting that is debated in either position, UR or eternal torment.

FWIW.

OH, free will! That's what WIA was driving at. Thanks for fielding that, TM.

And look at how succinct you were answering him. How do you people DO that? :lol:

Toolman
Oct 25th 2007, 04:47 PM
OH, free will! That's what WIA was driving at. Thanks for fielding that, TM.

That's just what I thought but I'm sure WIA will clear it up if I was off base (which could have been the case for sure).


And look at how succinct you were answering him. How do you people DO that? :lol:

:saint:

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 05:33 PM
HI'm a bit lost with what you're saying -- my fault, I know. I don't consider having a fuller understanding of the scope of the love of God to be inconsequential in this life, if that's what you're saying. Not to believers certainly and as far as to those who aren't already saved -- as I said, God prepares hearts to receive their Savior. The preaching of all of God's Word is a part of that preparation. So to say that the hearing of any part of that Word could ever be inconsequential to ANYONE is, I believe, completely unfounded and an unworthy statement. I have edited my comment to reflect what I meant. That 4 & 5 (belief in them) is inconsequential as far as salvation in this life. Meaning, you don't become more saved or more lost (in this life) by that doctrine. Whether it is true or not bears no consequence in your belief regarding God's disposition towards the lost in this life. It won't help one come to Christ since nothing will stop that and it won't hinder one coming to Christ (them putting it off until after death) because God does the saving. The inconsequence makes the belief, for those who hold to 1, 2, and 3, a "safe" position IMO. Being right or wrong doesn't change things for the lost in this life (from the viewpoint of this belief).(I believe there may be consequence for this view to the lost, but that isn't my point here.)
God does seem to have created us with a natural propensity to be uneasy with that which contradicts itself. Seems that might be His way of making sure that we would dig for the answers that He wishes to reveal to us.I agree with this. The doctrine of an eternal hell makes the Christian and the lost uneasy. I believe that this is God given also. God prompts us to resolve our unease, he created us that way.

Pleroo, thanks for being willing to put your beliefs out there for discussion in such detail. You have obviously given your views much study, prayer and thought. I understand your position regarding UR but I also understand that the foundation of your view is the sole and complete sovereignty of God in salvation (election). I think there is where we disagree and work forward to different conclusions.

Regardless of all of that, I am glad to call you my sister in Christ. :hug:

God Bless!

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 05:36 PM
Why would it not be a gentle experience? God decides not to save them in this life so that he can be rough with them in the after life, only to then save them?


I mean to address this in the last post but forgot. Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry (figuratively speaking) at that last comment. It's clever but it's not really an honest response to what I wrote -- or at least it doesn't seem to be to me.

I wrote:


I believe He will do the same for those who die in their sin, but I do not believe it will be a gentle experience, to say the least.


Which was a more succinct way ;) of saying what I had written just before that:



I know that living in condemnation in this life is a fearful and horrible thing. But here, we are to some degree, protected from that condemnation by our physical life because there is a veil between us and the spiritual realm. Before we come to faith in Christ, we are living in the spiritual realm of darkness, but we cannot fully perceive just what that means. Once physical death has come and that veil is ripped away from us, what remains is existance in the spiritual realm. People will see exactly the state that they are in without the Life of Jesus Christ. What a horrific and frightening thing. How quickly will their hard hearts be broken and their self-reliance and pride be cast down?!



Where did you get out of this that God was going to "rough somebody up"? [Edit: In re-reading this, it appears I misread the terminology you used. The quoted section says "so that he can be rough with them". I'm not sure how I read it so differently than what was there! At any rate, the rest of this still applies. :) ] Where in my post did you get that from, because if it isn't obvious that I don't see God in that way, I really do need to do something about my writing style. :rolleyes:

As far as it not being a gentle process -- I don't consider the process of being humbled and broken down a gentle process even in the here and now, do you? It's most often painful and sometimes violently so, even for the believer. But it's a necessary process.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 05:55 PM
Where did you get out of this that God was going to "rough somebody up"? To me, that terminology has connotations of a thug, a mob boss. Where in my post did you get that from, because if it isn't obvious that I don't see God in that way, I really do need to do something about my writing style. :rolleyes::lol: I am the master of getting an opposite reaction to that which I intended by my writing style too!

The mobster "roughing someone up" part is purely something you came up with (see, I told you I was a master :)). But I got the thought I presented from the topic of the thread, hell, and your referenece to the rich man who lifted his eyes in hell. I assumed from your gentle / rough comments that you believed there was going to be some kind of "hell" to pay (so to speak) for those who die in their sins. I guess I figured rough is rough, God doesn't make it a gentle process for them.
As far as it not being a gentle process -- I don't consider the process of being humbled and broken down a gentle process even in the here and now, do you? It's most often painful and sometimes violently so, even for the believer. But it's a necessary process.OK. So this would be the weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff. I am fine with that but I don't equate that with my salvation experience. I don't think they are the same, just divided by the line of death. Submitting for the moment to your point that the weeping and gnashing of teeth would bring God to save them, are you suggesting that there is virtually no difference between our conviction in this life and the afterlife? Let me put it a different way. When you say that salvation won't be "gentle" in the afterlife, are you basically saying it will be "rough" like it is for those set under conviction in this life?

God Bless!

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 06:31 PM
The mobster "roughing someone up" part is purely something you came up with (see, I told you I was a master :)).

Yeah! I'm still trying to figure out how I misread it so completely! LOL


But I got the thought I presented from the topic of the thread, hell, and your referenece to the rich man who lifted his eyes in hell. I assumed from your gentle / rough comments that you believed there was going to be some kind of "hell" to pay (so to speak) for those who die in their sins.

I really want to stress not to use the terminology of "paying" in regard to what I'm saying, because that adds to the confusion of people who believe that UR is just another form of purgatory. We don't, nor can we, pay for our sin, make restitution to God for them, make ourselves right with Him or any other way you can think of saying people can "pay for their sins". Period.


I guess I figured rough is rough, God doesn't make it a gentle process for them.OK.

Well, no, I'm going to get nitpicky here, because what you said was (and this is I guess where I got the "roughing them up" thing): "God decides not to save them in this life so that he can be rough with them in the after life"

You make it sound like I'm saying God's playing some cosmic, sadistic, cat and mouse game with people and that He gets some kind of thrill out of abusing people.

I don't believe God abuses people at all. I do believe that He shows us our sinful condition in order to break down our pride and that can be, and I might venture to say that it always is, a very painful process for us.




So this would be the weeping and gnashing of teeth stuff. I am fine with that but I don't equate that with my salvation experience. I don't think they are the same, just divided by the line of death. Submitting for the moment to your point that the weeping and gnashing of teeth would bring God to save them, are you suggesting that there is virtually no difference between our conviction in this life and the afterlife? Let me put it a different way. When you say that salvation won't be "gentle" in the afterlife, are you basically saying it will be "rough" like it is for those set under conviction in this life?

God Bless!


WIA, I'm not sure I know how to be much clearer than what I said (definitely a failing of mine!) I believe that those who die in their sin, without having coming to faith in Christ, having had the physical veil torn down by death, are going to see their spiritual state for what it is -- they will see clearly that they have been and are living in the realm of "darkness".

Okay, let me try this: Here, in the physical realm, believers are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ, right? But can we truly perceive that for what it is, in all it's glory? We get glimpses of it, but until our physical senses are stripped away from us, we are somewhat blind to the spiritual realm.

Same with those who are non-believers. Here and now, before someone is brought to saving faith, God gives glimpses of their true spiritual state, and the condemnation they live under. This works to begin the process of breaking down a person's price and self-reliance on their own goodness. Some are given more of a glimpse than others, I think, or perhaps have been given a predisposition to respond more quickly to those glimpses.

But for the most part people are blinded to the spiritual realm by their physical senses. When those physical sense are ripped away from them, they will see the spiritual realm of darkness for all that it is. And as much more glorious as the realm of spiritual Light is than we can perceive now, so much more will the spiritual realm of darkness be terrifying than it is now while people have the physical realm to distract them with all it's "pleasures". So, much more quickly I believe, will their hearts be stripped of pride and self-reliance, much more quickly will people see their fallen state and their need of a Savior, much more quickly will their hearts be prepared and willing to receive the mercy of God.

This is what I believe may be the case. But again, if this is not how God will work, it still doesn't detract from the fact that God WILL work, and will bring His plan of reconciling all to Himself to completion.

Okay, you can be honest. That didn't make it any clearer did it? Or worse yet, I just got done answering a question you never even asked. Sigh.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 07:31 PM
WIA,

I just wanted to share that just as within the camp of those who hold to eternal torment you have those who are more reformed in their soteriolgy and those who are more free-will/arminian in their soteriology, same is true in the camp of those who hold to UR.

Tom Talbott, the author of "The Inescapable Love of God", is a proponent of "free will" and its essential role in salvation. Here (http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/freewill.html)is an article he wrote about that very topic.I've read the article. Thanks for the link.

The article seems intended for someone who already holds the UR belief and is motivated to get such an one to consider free will. I'm not sure a biblical arguement for man having free will after death can be made and he doesn't seem to put forth a scriptural vehicle in his article. I doubt you agree very much with the views expressed in this article. :)

Tom seems to suggest that death makes no difference in the matter. God's longsuffering in the end will outlast man's rebellious ways, either in this life or the next. From the Tom Talbott article:
We are free to sin and perhaps even to sin with relative impunity for awhile, but in no way are we free to sin with impunity forever. So unless we first repent of our sin and step into the life that Christ brings to us, God will sooner or later--in the next life, if not in this one--permit our illusions to shatter against the hard rock of reality.
So, while both camps have tension over HOW God does the saving (reformed or arminian) that is somewhat of a side issue IMO. Not that its not important and Talbott, IMO, brings up some fantastic points. But it is something worth noting that is debated in either position, UR or eternal torment.I don't think it is a side issue. I believe that man can reject God's overtures of grace and suffer eternal consequence. I believe God has made it this way. This would make UR impossible. Tom, in his article, brushes over this with this comment:
But our ultimate destiny is not up to us, because God's severity, no less than his kindness, is itself a means of his saving grace.This puts Tom outside my camp. While I believe in God's initial and active role in the salvation of man, I do not see the warnings in the Bible as the means to saving grace after death. Tom extends the time to respond to God's overtures up to and after death and until just short of the beginning of eternity. Basically, grace is not resistable for eternity. This basically then is irresistable grace which puts him outisde of the arminian camp.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 07:56 PM
Well, no, I'm going to get nitpicky here, because what you said was (and this is I guess where I got the "roughing them up" thing): "God decides not to save them in this life so that he can be rough with them in the after life"

You make it sound like I'm saying God's playing some cosmic, sadistic, cat and mouse game with people and that He gets some kind of thrill out of abusing people.That was just one of my contradictions that I have with 1, 2, & 3 and the extention to 4 & 5. Though not in your quote of me above, I followed that comment with a question mark. Why wouldn't God just save them now? I see a contradiction in God waiting and I was just pointing that out. Also, I am not wanting to make it seem that God gets a thrill out of abusing people. I am suggesting I see a contradiction regarding that. Go up a few posts and see Toolman's point about Jonathan Edwards' sermon: "Sinners in the hands of an angry God". You likely don't have the same nitpickiness there. :)
WIA, I'm not sure I know how to be much clearer than what I said (definitely a failing of mine!) I believe that those who die in their sin, without having coming to faith in Christ, having had the physical veil torn down by death, are going to see their spiritual state for what it is -- they will see clearly that they have been and are living in the realm of "darkness".

Okay, let me try this: Here, in the physical realm, believers are already seated in the heavenly places with Christ, right? But can we truly perceive that for what it is, in all it's glory? We get glimpses of it, but until our physical senses are stripped away from us, we are somewhat blind to the spiritual realm.

Same with those who are non-believers. Here and now, before someone is brought to saving faith, God gives glimpses of their true spiritual state, and the condemnation they live under. This works to begin the process of breaking down a person's price and self-reliance on their own goodness. Some are given more of a glimpse than others, I think, or perhaps have been given a predisposition to respond more quickly to those glimpses.

But for the most part people are blinded to the spiritual realm by their physical senses. When those physical sense are ripped away from them, they will see the spiritual realm of darkness for all that it is. And as much more glorious as the realm of spiritual Light is than we can perceive now, so much more will the spiritual realm of darkness be terrifying than it is now while people have the physical realm to distract them with all it's "pleasures". So, much more quickly I believe, will their hearts be stripped of pride and self-reliance, much more quickly will people see their fallen state and their need of a Savior, much more quickly will their hearts be prepared and willing to receive the mercy of God.And again, I thank you for you sharing your views. While I still don't exactly understand how you propose the spirit becomes alive in passing from death to the afterlife, I do think you have made your point.
This is what I believe may be the case. But again, if this is not how God will work, it still doesn't detract from the fact that God WILL work, and will bring His plan of reconciling all to Himself to completion.That is twice recently I have seen this. Once in Toolman's calvinist/arminian post, and here. It gives the appearance of working backwards from the conclusion. In other words, the truth is UR, but our belief in how we get there may not be exactly right.
Okay, you can be honest. That didn't make it any clearer did it? Or worse yet, I just got done answering a question you never even asked. Sigh.No, really, you have expressed yourself well. Thank you.

God Bless!

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 08:10 PM
That was just one of my contradictions that I have with 1, 2, & 3 and the extention to 4 & 5. Though not in your quote of me above, I followed that comment with a question mark. Why wouldn't God just save them now? I see a contradiction in God waiting and I was just pointing that out. Also, I am not wanting to make it seem that God gets a thrill out of abusing people. I am suggesting I see a contradiction regarding that. Go up a few posts and see Toolman's point about Jonathan Edwards' sermon: "Sinners in the hands of an angry God". You likely don't have the same nitpickiness there. :)And again, I thank you for you sharing your views. While I still don't exactly understand how you propose the spirit becomes alive in passing from death to the afterlife, I do think you have made your point.


The spirit does not become alive by passing from death to the afterlife. The spirit becomes alive when it is born again. And the spirit is born again by the will of God. In the here and now, God prepares hearts to be both able and willing to receive Him, He causes us to be born again. I believe the same will be true in the there and then.



That is twice recently I have seen this. Once in Toolman's calvinist/arminian post, and here. It gives the appearance of working backwards from the conclusion. In other words, the truth is UR, but our belief in how we get there may not be exactly right.

Well, if you stand before God and He says, "Hey, WIA, you know, you're wrong about Free Will. That's not at all how I work." Are you going to say, "Well, then I can't really be saved." ?

My conclusion, based on Scripture, is that God saves man (I believed that when I held to ET, and I believe that now.) Would you have a problem with me as a believer in ET saying I wasn't sure exactly how God saves man, but I still believed it anyway based on the fact that the Bible says it?

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 08:23 PM
The spirit does not become alive by passing from death to the afterlife. The spirit becomes alive when it is born again. And the spirit is born again by the will of God. In the here and now, God prepares hearts to be both able and willing to receive Him, He causes us to be born again. I believe the same will be true in the there and then.My point here is if the spirit is dead and not able or desires to respond to God in this life and isn't even aware that he is lost, what changes just because we die? Where does the awareness and conviction come from? When does it occur? These are just technicalities, I am not expecting an answer really.
Well, if you stand before God and He says, "Hey, WIA, you know, you're wrong about Free Will. That's not at all how I work." Are you going to say, "Well, then I can't really be saved." ?That cow has already left the barn. God has already given me that assurance and I believe He has given you that assurance. That isn't the topic here. We both know where we stand with God.
My conclusion, based on Scripture, is that God saves man (I believed that when I held to ET, and I believe that now.) Would you have a problem with me as a believer in ET saying I wasn't sure exactly how God saves man, but I still believed it anyway based on the fact that the Bible says it?That is a good question. It's not exactly the same but I'll concede the point.

God Bless!

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 08:24 PM
My conclusion, based on Scripture, is that God saves man (I believed that when I held to ET, and I believe that now.) Would you have a problem with me as a believer in ET saying I wasn't sure exactly how God saves man, but I still believed it anyway based on the fact that the Bible says it?

My brain is distracted so let me just clarify this. I'm not talking about being uncertain that it is through Christ that we are saved. I'm talking about someone believing they know how it is that a person comes to saving faith [free will vs God's will] but allowing that, being human, they could be wrong.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 08:31 PM
Pleroo,

But for the most part people are blinded to the spiritual realm by their physical senses. When those physical sense are ripped away from them, they will see the spiritual realm of darkness for all that it is. And as much more glorious as the realm of spiritual Light is than we can perceive now, so much more will the spiritual realm of darkness be terrifying than it is now while people have the physical realm to distract them with all it's "pleasures". So, much more quickly I believe, will their hearts be stripped of pride and self-reliance, much more quickly will people see their fallen state and their need of a Savior, much more quickly will their hearts be prepared and willing to receive the mercy of God.I agree that this revelation will be as you said, but I think the conclusion may be the reverse.

Those who lived in darkness all their life and hid from the light in Christ, will find the glory of God terrible when it is revealed to them. Now they avoid that light because they prefer their darkness - this is unlikely to change when they are standing in all their naked shame before Him. In fact, I surmise that their hatred of the light will be intensified.

What did Adam and Eve do when the glory of God departed from them, but run and hide and blame one another.

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 08:43 PM
My point here is if the spirit is dead and not able or desires to respond to God in this life and isn't even aware that he is lost, what changes just because we die? Where does the awareness and conviction come from? When does it occur? These are just technicalities, I am not expecting an answer really.

Can I respond anyway?

What changes is that our physical senses are removed and what is left is the spiritual realm.

For instance, here, when you feel disatisfied with life, you don't have to face the fact that you are feeling separated from Your Creator because there are many physical things you can do to alleviate, or at least bury, any discomfort you might be in. Work harder, play harder.

My opinion is that once those distractions are removed, unbelievers will come face to face with the reality of their situation. That doesn't make them alive, but when they see the spiritual death they are living in, it will humble their hearts and prepare them to receive God's mercy and His life.

Conviction in the here and now comes when we are made able to see our true condition. It happens more selectively here (I believe it takes a special act of the Holy Spirit shining Light into the dark places and allowing people to see beyond the physical) but in the age to come people will have no choice but to see because the physical will be removed. The Light will be shining on them full force and they won't be able to escape it by hiding behind the physical. They will be tormented by that Light, because it will show the truth of their situation. But in the process, just as when we are convicted of our situation now, hearts are humbled and made ready to receive God's mercy.

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 08:48 PM
Pleroo,
I agree that this revelation will be as you said, but I think the conclusion may be the reverse.

Those who lived in darkness all their life and hid from the light in Christ, will find the glory of God terrible when it is revealed to them. Now they avoid that light because they prefer their darkness - this is unlikely to change when they are standing in all their naked shame before Him. In fact, I surmise that their hatred of the light will be intensified.

What did Adam and Eve do when the glory of God departed from them, but run and hide and blame one another.

Yes, as we all do. Until our hearts are humbled and the Spirit births us into the Kingdom of heaven (couldn't think of a better way to say that). Here the process of humbling can be slow, then it will not be (in my opinion). But either way, it is the Spirit who makes alive, both now and, I believe, in the age to come.

watchinginawe
Oct 25th 2007, 09:12 PM
...but in the age to come people will have no choice but to see because the physical will be removed. The Light will be shining on them full force and they won't be able to escape it by hiding behind the physical. They will be tormented by that Light, because it will show the truth of their situation. But in the process, just as when we are convicted of our situation now, hearts are humbled and made ready to receive God's mercy.Piggybacking on Robin's idea (and one that I have discussed before], what if this process you describe above (death) takes one that isn't born again and "petrifies" their spiritual condition?

Consider:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
...
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What if Jesus was just stating a spiritual fact in verse 5?

In verse 15, when does an unbeliever perish? Or said another way, do unbelievers ever perish?

God Bless!

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 09:37 PM
Piggybacking on Robin's idea (and one that I have discussed before], what if this process you describe above (death) takes one that isn't born again and "petrifies" their spiritual condition?

Consider:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
...
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What if Jesus was just stating a spiritual fact in verse 5?

In verse 15, when does an unbeliever perish? Or said another way, do unbelievers ever perish?

God Bless!



We're already dead in sin until made alive in Christ. But once we are in Christ, no longer can we die. It won't happen, never again. No perishing. None. :pp :)



So, does an unbeliver perish? They already have .. as it says in another couple verses after these ... they're condemned already. They need to be made alive in Christ. And, well, you know what I'm going to say next :). Look at that lovely verse sandwiched in between:



For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Pleroo
Oct 25th 2007, 11:39 PM
Well, since this thread has been booted to the dungeon ;), I don't imagine it would hurt to take it on a bit of a rabbit trail. I'd like to get some input from my fellow URists. I mentioned I've been studying LOF [second death] (I should more say pondering it and trying to make sense of the myriad of views I've heard) for quite some time now. I have a theory (for all I know, it's a theory I've heard somewhere else and just don't remember where) and I'd like to ask if you could help me by letting me know if I've overlooked something that would make this theory untenable.


I'm working off the assumption that "first death" is us being dead in our trespasses (Eph 2 & Col 2). With that in mind...

Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him

My theory is that this [Christ's death on the cross] is then the "second death" and here's why:

Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

In the cross, the world was judged.

[This judgment would have no power over us any longer (now that we are believers) because we have also been raised with Him (first resurrection) and are reigning with Him:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
]


As I said, the world is judged in the cross:

Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

The devil is conquered in the cross:

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Death & the grave are conquered in the cross:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


And, finally looking at 11-15, all must face the judgment. Each of those books represent one person, whose life is opened and examined. And the book of life, of course, represents Jesus Christ. Those who are already in Him (in the book), have died with Him (the second death) and are no longer under judgment. But those who have not yet died with Him must do so. They must be cast into the cross/death of Christ...

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

...so that they too can live with Him.

And finally, of course, as Revelation 21 says:

"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."


Any thoughts?

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 03:21 AM
Pleroo,
I am not UR but I do have a thought about this. Which is that you can't spiritualize the word of God in order to make it fit your doctrine.

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 01:29 PM
How would UR reconcile the following verse . . .



Jude 1:12-13
These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Would you say that the "forever" really just means for an age instead of eternity?

Would you also say that the "twice dead" reference would be those who are taking part in the second death as opposed to the more widely held view that these folks were once saved and are now apostate?

I guess my main issue with universal reconciliation is this . . .



John 3:35-36
The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


So, it seems that the UR doctrine states that man has no say so in whether or not he will follow the way of the Lord. I guess saying that man has no free will. If that is the case why does the wrath of God abide upon those who have no possibilty of walking by His ways to begin with? How is that just?

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 01:55 PM
So, it seems that the UR doctrine states that man has no say so in whether or not he will follow the way of the Lord. I guess saying that man has no free will. If that is the case why does the wrath of God abide upon those who have no possibilty of walking by His ways to begin with? How is that just?

VR,

Just to state quickly a person who holds to UR and holds to free will believes that God is wise enough, powerful enough and loving enough to bring all people to a place of realizing their sin and turning to Him. He knows exactly what each soul needs to be changed so that the person will hate sin and love Him.

He is infinite. The person is finite. He has all the wisdom, power and love that is required to turn a person from sin. He knew this before He ever created a single thing.

God's wrath (the Law) is a means whereby God turns the person to Christ.

Hope that helps some.

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 02:07 PM
VR,

Just to state quickly a person who holds to UR and holds to free will believes that God is wise enough, powerful enough and loving enough to bring all people to a place of realizing their sin and turning to Him. He knows exactly what each soul needs to be changed so that the person will hate sin and love Him.

He is infinite. The person is finite. He has all the wisdom, power and love that is required to turn a person from sin. He knew this before He ever created a single thing.

God's wrath (the Law) is a means whereby God turns the person to Christ.

Hope that helps some.

Oh, so UR believes that we do have free will. I was under the impression that UR didn't believe in a free will.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 02:10 PM
How would UR reconcile the following verse . . .



Would you say that the "forever" really just means for an age instead of eternity?

Would you also say that the "twice dead" reference would be those who are taking part in the second death as opposed to the more widely held view that these folks were once saved and are now apostate?

Here is what I would point out VR regarding Jude:

Jude 1:
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Apostates Depraved and Doomed

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Ezekiel 16: (speaking to Israel)
46 “Your elder sister is Samaria, who dwells with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who dwells to the south of you, is Sodom and her daughters. 47 You did not walk in their ways nor act according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you became more corrupt than they in all your ways.
48 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.
51 “Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.
53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of the daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. 58 You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations,” says the LORD. 59 For thus says the Lord GOD: “I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.

60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord GOD.’”

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 02:11 PM
Oh, so UR believes that we do have free will. I was under the impression that UR didn't believe in a free will.

Check out this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1420663&postcount=108) VR. It has some information in there that might be helpful.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 03:14 PM
Toolman, #131 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421754&postcount=131)
The passage in Ezekiel is speaking of the future New Covenant when Israel's sins would be atoned and children would be added to her from these very nations who had been her reproach. Samaria, Sodom and Syria, Philistine are drawn upon to show that Israel has been no different in the sins she has done - and in fact worse. In the past Israel had made her pacts with these wicked people but her treaty with them in the future would not be as she had done in the past. The new covenant would bring true peace by conversion.

The language of resurrection here fits the First Resurrection of Jesus and the time when salvation and judgment came to Israel and the Gentiles were brought into her new covenant with Him.

Jude is however speaking of the final judgment, whereas Ezekiel points us to the first advent.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 03:29 PM
Toolman, #131 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421754&postcount=131)
The passage in Ezekiel is speaking of the future New Covenant when Israel's sins would be atoned and children would be added to her from these very nations who had been her reproach. Samaria, Sodom and Syria, Philistine are drawn upon to show that Israel has been no different in the sins she has done - and in fact worse. In the past Israel had made her pacts with these wicked people but her treaty with them in the future would not be as she had done in the past. The new covenant would bring true peace by conversion.

The language of resurrection here fits the First Resurrection of Jesus and the time when salvation and judgment came to Israel and the Gentiles were brought into her new covenant with Him.

Jude is however speaking of the final judgment, whereas Ezekiel points us to the first advent.

I understand that is your interpretation of the passage within your theological framework.

I disagree. Jude speaks of the judgement to come and that is, whereas Ezekiel points us to the restoration of all things and the consummation when God will be all in all.

The language speaks of restoration (returning, bringing back, etc.), which of course, as does all restoration, flow from the death and resurrection of Christ.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 03:31 PM
I understand that is your interpretation of the passage within your theological framework.

I disagree. Jude speaks of the judgement to come, Ezekiel points us to the restoration of all things and the consummation when God will be all in all.

The language speaks of restoration (returning, bringing back, etc.), which of course, as does all restoration, flow from the death and resurrection of Christ."My theological framework" is the one scripture points me to - the new covenant. Don't walk so fast past the cross.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 03:32 PM
"My theological framework" is the one scripture points me to - the new covenant. Don't walk so fast past the cross.

Ok :)......................

Pleroo
Oct 26th 2007, 03:42 PM
Pleroo,
I am not UR but I do have a thought about this. Which is that you can't spiritualize the word of God in order to make it fit your doctrine.

Robin, I think it is very fair to say that we all view Scripture through the lens of our doctrines. There are many passages that speak very clearly, imho, of the reonciliation of all things which you must find a way to "fit" into your own view. None of us, I think it's also fair to say, picked some arbitrary doctrines to believe in. We came to our beliefs based on our understanding of Scripture as a whole, and our understanding, through Scripture, of God's nature and how He deals with man.

As far as "not spiritualizing" Scripture, have you never dug beneath the surface of the literal text of Scripture and allowed God to reveal the hidden nuggets beneath it? If you haven't, it's a pity, in my opinion. The OT, of course, is resplendent with spiritual meaning beyond the literal accounts. And I have no reason to believe that the NT is not as well. Most especially a book like Revelation which is overtly symbolic.

But, let God's word speak to us on this matter as well:

John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

It is not our flesh (our natural understanding) which gives life, but the spirit. God's word is spirit and needs to be understood by the spirit/Spirit.

1 Cor 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit [that would be natural understanding] does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, though. I do appreciate that -- sometimes on these message boards, when no one responds, you begin to wonder if your posts are maybe invisible. :lol:

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 03:45 PM
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, though. I do appreciate that -- sometimes on these message boards, when no one responds, you begin to wonder if your posts are maybe invisible. :lol:

P,

I definitely thought your post was well laid out and insightful. I am taking some time to chew on it :)

Pleroo
Oct 26th 2007, 03:55 PM
P,

I definitely thought your post was well laid out and insightful. I am taking some time to chew on it :)

Bless your heart. :lol:

watchinginawe
Oct 26th 2007, 04:08 PM
Where is Pleroo? Haven't seen her around for a while. :dunno:


:lol:

Pleroo
Oct 26th 2007, 04:26 PM
http://www.ee.duke.edu/~drsmith/cloaking/invisible_man.jpg

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 05:45 PM
Toolman, #131 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421754&postcount=131)
The passage in Ezekiel is speaking of the future New Covenant when Israel's sins would be atoned and children would be added to her from these very nations who had been her reproach. Samaria, Sodom and Syria, Philistine are drawn upon to show that Israel has been no different in the sins she has done - and in fact worse. In the past Israel had made her pacts with these wicked people but her treaty with them in the future would not be as she had done in the past. The new covenant would bring true peace by conversion.

The language of resurrection here fits the First Resurrection of Jesus and the time when salvation and judgment came to Israel and the Gentiles were brought into her new covenant with Him.

Jude is however speaking of the final judgment, whereas Ezekiel points us to the first advent.

Something I thought about with this . . .

How could the New Covenant be what Ezekiel is talking about when all of the New Covenant is basically a stumbling block to Israel? I mean if it is like Romans 11 says and all Israel has been given over to disobedience, how can the atonement talked about in Ezekiel refer to the cross?

I'm not sure.

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 05:48 PM
Check out this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1420663&postcount=108) VR. It has some information in there that might be helpful.

Ah, thanks. So what is your position on this, Toolman? Reformed or free will/arminian?

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 05:56 PM
Something I thought about with this . . .

How could the New Covenant be what Ezekiel is talking about when all of the New Covenant is basically a stumbling block to Israel? I mean if it is like Romans 11 says and all Israel has been given over to disobedience, how can the atonement talked about in Ezekiel refer to the cross?

I'm not sure.

VR,

Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=880364&postcount=34) is an exegesis of Romans 11 that I did a while back that addresses that. This is what I see.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 06:07 PM
Ah, thanks. So what is your position on this, Toolman? Reformed or free will/arminian?

VR,

I am definitely more in the reformed camp but IMO the UR position makes room for a consistency between the 2 that does not exist witin the eternal torment camp (as we see between the arguments constantly between calvinists and arminians).

As I've stated before biblical Universalists completely agree with arminians that God loves every single person and that He truly desires the salvation of every single person. The biblical Universalist also completely agrees with the reformed that God's plan of redemption cannot be thwarted by man, those whom God has willed to be saved will be saved.. God is soveriegn and His plan will be completely successful.

So I can agree with alot of what Talbott points out in his article. It seems obvious to me that we have a will and God can change that will (by various methods). How much can we resist His will in that is, to me, is questionable. While I don't believe we can eternally resist His will, it seems clear that He does allow resistance of His will for seasons. Of course I believe this is for our better good and falls within His ultimate plan of redemption.
Since I do believe we are learning in the process (to trust God and not ourselves) I think there is a level of synergism.

But I'm real careful with my words and thoughts there. Anything good I have, faith, love, desire for Christ, hope, etc. has come from God and His soveriegn, salvific work in changing my heart from darkness to light.
Anything that still remains of opposition to Him within my heart is from me and my stubborn will and my sinner's heart.

I give Him complete credit for salvation, and I take full responsibility for my sin.

Hope that helps.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 06:36 PM
Something I thought about with this . . .

How could the New Covenant be what Ezekiel is talking about when all of the New Covenant is basically a stumbling block to Israel? I mean if it is like Romans 11 says and all Israel has been given over to disobedience, how can the atonement talked about in Ezekiel refer to the cross?

I'm not sure.The OT hope to which the resurrection was always attached was in the arrival of Messiah - the Hope of Israel. That Israel would for the most part reject Him at that time was not clearly revealed there. It is only our NT hindsight after the fact, that makes it more clear. It is us who have the hope of His 2nd coming that tends to make us think this was being revealed to them as well even then. Which is why I think the language appears a bit ambiguous. In the OT you are always seeing a spiritual hope and a physical application - because they were looking forward to a physical event. In the NT our hope and our application is spiritual because those events have occurred.

First the natural then the spiritual is the direction the pattern moves us in the OT. The fullness of the picture was not however given clearly to them though they were plenty warned. How could their hope in Messiah have been sustained if they knew part of God's purpose to redeem them was that they would have to also reject Him? Therefore their hope appears to be in the final resurrection instead of the first resurrection which is spiritual which did come to them.

Which I am not sure I have made any more clear :hmm:

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 06:44 PM
VR,

I am definitely more in the reformed camp but IMO the UR position makes room for a consistency between the 2 that does not exist witin the eternal torment camp (as we see between the arguments constantly between calvinists and arminians).

As I've stated before biblical Universalists completely agree with arminians that God loves every single person and that He truly desires the salvation of every single person. The biblical Universalist also completely agrees with the reformed that God's plan of redemption cannot be thwarted by man, those whom God has willed to be saved will be saved.. God is soveriegn and His plan will be completely successful.

So I can agree with alot of what Talbott points out in his article. It seems obvious to me that we have a will and God can change that will (by various methods). How much can we resist His will in that is, to me, is questionable. While I don't believe we can eternally resist His will, it seems clear that He does allow resistance of His will for seasons. Of course I believe this is for our better good and falls within His ultimate plan of redemption.
Since I do believe we are learning in the process (to trust God and not ourselves) I think there is a level of synergism.

But I'm real careful with my words and thoughts there. Anything good I have, faith, love, desire for Christ, hope, etc. has come from God and His soveriegn, salvific work in changing my heart from darkness to light.
Anything that still remains of opposition to Him within my heart is from me and my stubborn will and my sinner's heart.

I give Him complete credit for salvation, and I take full responsibility for my sin.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for your thoughts, Toolman. I must admit that it is difficult to reconcile God's nature (at least what I understand of it) and the Calvinist doctrine, being that I know that God loves every person even if they are blinded by the enemy, and I just can't bring myself to say that God would choose to appoint someone to an eternity of torment. Likewise, it is also difficult for me to reconcile the fact that I know that no man comes to God but rather God draws man to His Son with the doctrine that says that it is by our own free will choosing to accept His gift of salvation. If that were truly the case, what makes us so special? How can I look at things in the Word that I don't understand but yet still believe and another person can see the same things without understanding and it causes them to stumble? What makes me so special that I can believe even though I don't quite get it all? It can't be that I'm special. It has to be that God has lifted something from me that hinders my belief. It has to be that He has imparted something in me that can overcome what hinders others who in reality are no different than I am.

Anyway, what would you make of this passage . . .



Revelation 22:14-15
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.


Now, obviously this is speaking of the new heaven. This is supposed to be a time when all sin, sickness, disease and death has been destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ and placed underneath His feet. What is your view of this passage? Are these all the folks during this life who rejected the gospel and lived their lives feeding the lusts of the flesh with the things listed above?

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 07:01 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Toolman. I must admit that it is difficult to reconcile God's nature (at least what I understand of it) and the Calvinist doctrine, being that I know that God loves every person even if they are blinded by the enemy, and I just can't bring myself to say that God would choose to appoint someone to an eternity of torment. Likewise, it is also difficult for me to reconcile the fact that I know that no man comes to God but rather God draws man to His Son with the doctrine that says that it is by our own free will choosing to accept His gift of salvation. If that were truly the case, what makes us so special? How can I look at things in the Word that I don't understand but yet still believe and another person can see the same things without understanding and it causes them to stumble? What makes me so special that I can believe even though I don't quite get it all? It can't be that I'm special. It has to be that God has lifted something from me that hinders my belief. It has to be that He has imparted something in me that can overcome what hinders others who in reality are no different than I am.

That is exactly the conclusion I came to a few years ago. There is no difference in my sinful will than any other man's (nothing special about me) except what God has changed by His grace.

I also agree that God loves every single person and truly desires their salvation.

Hence I believe universal reconciliation is the correct theological framework for understanding the scriptures and the nature of God.


Anyway, what would you make of this passage . . .

Now, obviously this is speaking of the new heaven. This is supposed to be a time when all sin, sickness, disease and death has been destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ and placed underneath His feet. What is your view of this passage? Are these all the folks during this life who rejected the gospel and lived their lives feeding the lusts of the flesh with the things listed above?

I addressed that area of scripture here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50). I personally believe that Revelation ends unfulfilled and that the consummation and restoration of all things has begun but is not completed. 1 Cor. 15 gives us a synopsis of the consummation IMO:

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

In Revelation we do not see the Son subjecting His reign to the Father in fullness yet but I believe once all has been restored (however long that takes and whatever means) then we will see the consummation and God will be "all in all". That's how I see the fullness of ages and times playing out to conclude.

VerticalReality
Oct 26th 2007, 07:20 PM
I addressed that area of scripture here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50).

Pardon my speed reading. I'll give it a look see in a few when I have some more time.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 07:23 PM
Pardon my speed reading. I'll give it a look see in a few when I have some more time.

It was actually in another thread, not this one, so its not that you sped read past it :), I was just linking to it.

Take your time with it and let me know if I can help shed anymore light on the subject.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 26th 2007, 07:40 PM
RBG,

I actually don't see alot of anything I would disagree with in the above, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are speaking of a Law/Gospel hermaneutic.

This is my approach to biblical understanding and I think it goes all the way back to the garden and the 2 trees, which IMO represent Law and Grace.

Where I think we will differ is that I believe the covenant of Law is temporal and is for a purpose of bringing about the establishment of the covenant of Grace.

So, I would disagree that wrath is eternal. Wrath, punishment, discipline, judgements all have there purpose in driving people to the Gospel. God's anger last but a moment but His mercy endures forever.
I believe there will actually be a point in time where sin and death will truly be destoyed, all of creation will be redeemed, Christ will submit His reign to the Father and God will be all in all.

I think that is where we differ in the above.


Hi TM,

Back long enough to write a reply....

Couple of your comments bring addition question to mind, but will just focus on the core of our discussion...

God does have an eternal wrath, for Revelation 14: 9-11 says that He does, and is justified in doing so...


And you say that God's anger lasts but a moment? OK, then can you show me the scripture where He states that this is but a moment and to the circumstances that this entails?

For I still see Israel... still being punished by God - some 2000 years later and counting -- for what they did with Christ. Yet one day in the future, and one by one -- through God's drawing -- He will bring the nation Israel to salvation through Christ Jesus... Revelation 14:4


Couple more thoughts but I'll pause for comment....

Hope all is well...

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 07:50 PM
Hi TM,

Back long enough to write a reply....

Couple of your comments bring addition question to mind, but will just focus on the core of our discussion...

God does have an eternal wrath, for Revelation 14: 9-11 says that He does, and is justified in doing so...

This is where we will fundamentally disagree I suppose RBG. I do not see Revelation stating that God's wrath is eternal.

I understand that you do and that this passage is one of the support passages of eternal torment but I obviously do not see it in the same light, so I'm sure we are going to differ there and that difference will carry out throughout other areas.

Not sure how to "get around" that.


And you say that God's anger lasts but a moment? OK, then can you show me the scripture where He states that this is but a moment and to the circumstances that this entails?

I think I did here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50) but I could be misunderstanding your question.


For I still see Israel... still being punished by God - some 2000 years later and counting -- for what they did with Christ. Yet one day in the future, and one by one -- through God's drawing -- He will bring the nation Israel to salvation through Christ Jesus... Revelation 14:4

Maybe I'm misreading you here but it seems you are saying that God's wrath against Israel is not eternal but "age-enduring" until such a time as God has purposed to save Israel.

I, of course, would whole-heartedly agree with that and believe that is the correct exegesis of Romans 11, which I shared with VR above. Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=880364&postcount=34) is a link to my observations regarding Romans 11.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 26th 2007, 08:06 PM
This is where we will fundamentally disagree I suppose RBG. I do not see Revelation stating that God's wrath is eternal.

I understand that you do and that this passage is one of the support passages of eternal torment but I obviously do not see it in the same light, so I'm sure we are going to differ there and that difference will carry out throughout other areas.

Not sure how to "get around" that.

You - being amillinial, me - being premillenial.... does seem to be a gulf that would show differing hermeneutics. :)




I think I did here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50) but I could be misunderstanding your question.
I've got one more event to care to this afternoon and afterwards will go back and read your other post again to verify that you have answered my ?'s...




Maybe I'm misreading you here but it seems you are saying that God's wrath against Israel is not eternal but "age-enduring" until such a time as God has purposed to save Israel.

I, of course, would whole-heartedly agree with that and believe that is the correct exegesis of Romans 11, which I shared with VR above. Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=880364&postcount=34) is a link to my observations regarding Romans 11.

Well yes...however not be declaration to a nation, but to people one at a time which build the nation at the time. God has always preserved a remnant, and the final remnant will see Christ for who He is one at a time and then all Israel will be saved.

Toolman
Oct 26th 2007, 08:42 PM
You - being amillinial, me - being premillenial.... does seem to be a gulf that would show differing hermeneutics. :)

I may have not communicated that very well because, in actuality, I am much closer in eschatology to a premillenial view than an amillienial.
I'm not dogmatic on it but I do actually lean closer to a thousand year reign after his return followed by the consummation of all things back to God through Christ.

But regardless of eschatology I would regard God's wrath not as eternal, regardless of which way I fell out. Neither view neccessitates a belief in eternal torment.

For the record :)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 27th 2007, 01:39 AM
I may have not communicated that very well because, in actuality, I am much closer in eschatology to a premillenial view than an amillienial.
I'm not dogmatic on it but I do actually lean closer to a thousand year reign after his return followed by the consummation of all things back to God through Christ.

But regardless of eschatology I would regard God's wrath not as eternal, regardless of which way I fell out. Neither view neccessitates a belief in eternal torment.

For the record :)


Well I'm a bit surpised and also encouraged... :)

Mograce2U
Oct 27th 2007, 02:46 AM
#137 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421902&postcount=137)
I am sorry Pleroo I should have thrown a smilie on that post - it sounds a bit cynical to me too now.

I suppose by "spiritualizing" what I meant is that we ought to have a way to let the scripture guide us into the right understanding lest we just come up with anything as a result. Which doesn't mean that we don't try various ways of looking at a passage to see if it makes a difference sense. I know I do that as well. You know the "testing scripture with scripture" method. I know I don't expect my understanding to be carved in stone and want to be open to changing my mind.

I think one thing that I do find objectionable to the UR doctrine is how it tries to box it all up for us when scripture is not that clear cut.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 27th 2007, 03:10 PM
This is where we will fundamentally disagree I suppose RBG. I do not see Revelation stating that God's wrath is eternal.

I understand that you do and that this passage is one of the support passages of eternal torment but I obviously do not see it in the same light, so I'm sure we are going to differ there and that difference will carry out throughout other areas.

Not sure how to "get around" that.



I think I did here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50) but I could be misunderstanding your question.



Maybe I'm misreading you here but it seems you are saying that God's wrath against Israel is not eternal but "age-enduring" until such a time as God has purposed to save Israel.

I, of course, would whole-heartedly agree with that and believe that is the correct exegesis of Romans 11, which I shared with VR above. Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=880364&postcount=34) is a link to my observations regarding Romans 11.

Morning TM...

Had a chance to reread your linked post and have a few comments....

It seems to me that the UR position ignores dealing with surrounding doctrines as it strives to reconcile all mankind to God's grace.

In saying that God's wrath is only temporary, it also says the same of God's justice. It compromises the wages of sin is death of Romans - in that eternal life will come regardless if sin wasn't accounted for in this life or not.

God's vengeance also is compromised.

And then the whole bible becomes temporary: for the defense of what is good, for what is holy and what is true against sin, and evil, and lust will melt away into all good.... for the tares will become wheat, goats will become sheep, for those who have died without Christ -- will be given Christ without circumstance or thought - and not as those who have lived for Him in this life. All the battles for righteousness with God killing people and nations within His word, will live as being justified for their actions, for the UR position will apply the blood of Christ to their sins after death, because of the thought that God's grace is more important than God's justice.

Running the good race, fighting the good fight on this side of death then offers no true reward...if all are saved. Then the Gospel call, being universal in nature as I read this, has no eternal expiration time.... thinking that once my 'punishment' is complete, I will be accepted back in?


But --- we have to know that God's word will never change or fade away.... and that there has to be and there will be a remnant from all of creation that will be the all and the every, if God's justice and His wrath, and even His mercy is to be constant and enduring. Just as God has preserved the Jewish people for the one day fulfilling of His word that Israel [as a nation one-by-one - and as to that time in future history] will be saved, God also has called out peoples that He saves.

So I see UR as being a great hope from man's heart, but biblical, see it not being so. I see scripture stating that along with grace and mercy, God is truth, justice, holy, jealous, righteous, eternal, providential, sovereign and a whole bunch more descriptors....


I desire to leave to visit my mom, who just got out of the hospital, but expect to return late today and will review your thought back, if you so choose to do so.

Have a great day in the Lord,

RbG

Mograce2U
Oct 27th 2007, 04:55 PM
Thanks Redeemed by Grace for this well presented post!

If the gate were not narrow then everybody would find it!

Pleroo
Oct 27th 2007, 04:59 PM
#137 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421902&postcount=137)
I am sorry Pleroo I should have thrown a smilie on that post - it sounds a bit cynical to me too now.

Well, I'm "seeing" your smile now, so all's well that ends well. :)


I suppose by "spiritualizing" what I meant is that we ought to have a way to let the scripture guide us into the right understanding lest we just come up with anything as a result. Which doesn't mean that we don't try various ways of looking at a passage to see if it makes a difference sense. I know I do that as well. You know the "testing scripture with scripture" method. I know I don't expect my understanding to be carved in stone and want to be open to changing my mind.

And I am in full agreement with you here. I believe the Spirit does use Scripture to guide us into understanding and I look to see a thing confirmed throughout. That is what I believe I was doing in my pondering and in my post on the LOF, but I know you do not find agreement with what I wrote, and I didn't expect you to. ;)



I think one thing that I do find objectionable to the UR doctrine is how it tries to box it all up for us when scripture is not that clear cut.

Perhaps what I'm about to share is not necessary to the conversation, but for some reason, it seemed good to write it here.

As someone who was vehemently opposed to UR not all that long ago, I assure you it was a painful process of the Spirit prying my fingers off of my previously held doctrines. I was born and raised in one denomination and have continued in it all my life. Not only that, but my family has a LONG history of being in this denomination -- I can trace my ancestory back to a missionary to the American Indians who came to the Continent to establish this denomination here. Honestly, there was a lot of comfort in that for me, and I think pride, too. But well beyond that, there was a great fear of letting go of those denominational doctrines for fear (terror really) that it would be displeasing to God.

But, the Spirit tossed everything up in the air in spite of my death grip on those doctrines, and things are still finding a place to fall, I trust by the Spirit's guiding. I am still pondering and studying many things and it isn't in a tidy little box. However, many things that seemed contradictory to me, which I was afraid to question too deeply for fear of what I would find out, now DO make sense. Yes, I believe Scripture does bear out the glorious plan of God's reconcilation of all things, and it is confirmed to me more and more every day. As I continue to study and meditate on the Scripture, the Spirit witnesses to my spirit, and my spirit leaps for joy within me!

Toolman
Oct 27th 2007, 06:24 PM
Morning TM...

Had a chance to reread your linked post and have a few comments....

It seems to me that the UR position ignores dealing with surrounding doctrines as it strives to reconcile all mankind to God's grace.

In saying that God's wrath is only temporary, it also says the same of God's justice. It compromises the wages of sin is death of Romans - in that eternal life will come regardless if sin wasn't accounted for in this life or not.

God's vengeance also is compromised.

In my opinion it magnifies God's justice. God's wrath and justice are completely and fully revealed at the cross of Christ. The fullness of God's wrath against sin was place upon our Saviour.

There is no fuller display of God's justice than the cross, nor is there one needed.


And then the whole bible becomes temporary: for the defense of what is good, for what is holy and what is true against sin, and evil, and lust will melt away into all good....

Evil, sin and lust do not need to exist to define what is good and holy. I strongly disagree with that thought.

The plan of redemption is the destruction and doing away with those things which are in opposition to God. They are temporary.


for the tares will become wheat, goats will become sheep,

Yes, those in darkness are translated into light. Just as we ourselves were once children of wrath and were adopted by Grace.


for those who have died without Christ -- will be given Christ without circumstance or thought - and not as those who have lived for Him in this life.

We were all dead without Christ at one time. But God's mercy and grace saved us, not of ourselves but of His kindness.


All the battles for righteousness with God killing people and nations within His word, will live as being justified for their actions, for the UR position will apply the blood of Christ to their sins after death, because of the thought that God's grace is more important than God's justice.

God's grace is more abounding than sin. God's justice and His grace are not in opposition to one another but flow from the same being who loves His enemies. That's justice! Not man-made justice but God's definition of His justice.


Running the good race, fighting the good fight on this side of death then offers no true reward...if all are saved.

This is not what I have put forth. Believers in this life receive rewards/benefits that unbelievers will never participate in, as I have stated.


Then the Gospel call, being universal in nature as I read this, has no eternal expiration time.... thinking that once my 'punishment' is complete, I will be accepted back in?

The Gospel is eternal. I do agree with that.


But --- we have to know that God's word will never change or fade away.... and that there has to be and there will be a remnant from all of creation that will be the all and the every, if God's justice and His wrath, and even His mercy is to be constant and enduring.

As I said, I don't believe sin, evil and death have to continue to exist to demonstrate God's attributes. He has no need of anyone to define who He is.
Christ is the fullness of God revealed. None other is needed.


Just as God has preserved the Jewish people for the one day fulfilling of His word that Israel [as a nation one-by-one - and as to that time in future history] will be saved, God also has called out peoples that He saves.

So I see UR as being a great hope from man's heart, but biblical, see it not being so. I see scripture stating that along with grace and mercy, God is truth, justice, holy, jealous, righteous, eternal, providential, sovereign and a whole bunch more descriptors....

God's attributes are not in opposition. They come from the same being.
God's holiness and justice are NOT contrary to His grace and love.

God is Holy. It is absolutely impossible for Him to do anything unholy.

God is Just. It is impossible for Him to do anything that is unjust.

God is Love. It is impossible for Him to do anythihg that is unloving.

So, because of God's character and nature we can know that whatever He does to a person is because of His love for them. His justice is not contradictory to this but is in harmony with it.


I desire to leave to visit my mom, who just got out of the hospital, but expect to return late today and will review your thought back, if you so choose to do so.

Have a great day in the Lord,

RbG

My thoughts regarding Eternal Torment is that it teaches that God does not love all people but only a few.

That Christ is either unwilling or unable to save all people.

That Christ's mission for which He came, to seek and save the lost, will not succeed.

It makes God dependent upon making others suffer just to prove His attributes.

It makes God dependent upon making others suffer so that He can be glorified.

It allows sin, death and evil to continue to exist throughout eternity. Men curse and hate God forever despite Christ having come to destoy these things.

It makes sin abound more than grace.

It makes Adam's disobedience greater and more powerful than Christ's righteous act.

It makes God's desire that all things be reconciled in Christ fail.

It makes Christ not the Saviour of all men but only some.

Those are some of the reasons I see eternal torment as as being an imagination from man's heart, but I don't see it as biblically reflecting the story of scripture or the character of God.

Have a great day at your mom's and hope you have safe travel and enjoy fellowship with your family.

Mograce2U
Oct 27th 2007, 07:21 PM
Pleroo & Toolman,
Its not the good side of this doctrine that concerns me but rather the downside. Since the blood of Christ is all encompassing to cover and forgive the sins of all, even those who do not have faith in Him, then what need is there to punish anyone, at all, ever? Is this not what it means to be forgiven and cleansed by the blood of the Lamb? IOW the blood apparently is not so all encompassing that there still must come a fire to rid sinners of their rebellion and defilement and thereby bring them to repentance and faith - even though postitionally they are in Christ and cleansed and forgiven already. I am not trying to twist your words, but am trying to the find the angle by which this can make some sense, without turning the gospel upside down to do so.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Apparently you have the "them" as absolutely everyone coming to Christ whether in salvation or judgment?

What exactly do you think the word "condemn" means?

(Luke 11:31-32 KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. {32} The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

To me it means that one must forfeit his life.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 27th 2007, 09:46 PM
In my opinion it magnifies God's justice. God's wrath and justice are completely and fully revealed at the cross of Christ. The fullness of God's wrath against sin was place upon our Saviour.

There is no fuller display of God's justice than the cross, nor is there one needed.



Evil, sin and lust do not need to exist to define what is good and holy. I strongly disagree with that thought.

The plan of redemption is the destruction and doing away with those things which are in opposition to God. They are temporary.



Yes, those in darkness are translated into light. Just as we ourselves were once children of wrath and were adopted by Grace.



We were all dead without Christ at one time. But God's mercy and grace saved us, not of ourselves but of His kindness.



God's grace is more abounding than sin. God's justice and His grace are not in opposition to one another but flow from the same being who loves His enemies. That's justice! Not man-made justice but God's definition of His justice.



This is not what I have put forth. Believers in this life receive rewards/benefits that unbelievers will never participate in, as I have stated.



The Gospel is eternal. I do agree with that.



As I said, I don't believe sin, evil and death have to continue to exist to demonstrate God's attributes. He has no need of anyone to define who He is.
Christ is the fullness of God revealed. None other is needed.



God's attributes are not in opposition. They come from the same being.
God's holiness and justice are NOT contrary to His grace and love.

God is Holy. It is absolutely impossible for Him to do anything unholy.

God is Just. It is impossible for Him to do anything that is unjust.

God is Love. It is impossible for Him to do anythihg that is unloving.

So, because of God's character and nature we can know that whatever He does to a person is because of His love for them. His justice is not contradictory to this but is in harmony with it.



My thoughts regarding Eternal Torment is that it teaches that God does not love all people but only a few.

That Christ is either unwilling or unable to save all people.

That Christ's mission for which He came, to seek and save the lost, will not succeed.

It makes God dependent upon making others suffer just to prove His attributes.

It makes God dependent upon making others suffer so that He can be glorified.

It allows sin, death and evil to continue to exist throughout eternity. Men curse and hate God forever despite Christ having come to destoy these things.

It makes sin abound more than grace.

It makes Adam's disobedience greater and more powerful than Christ's righteous act.

It makes God's desire that all things be reconciled in Christ fail.

It makes Christ not the Saviour of all men but only some.

Those are some of the reasons I see eternal torment as as being an imagination from man's heart, but I don't see it as biblically reflecting the story of scripture or the character of God.

Have a great day at your mom's and hope you have safe travel and enjoy fellowship with your family.

Hi TM and thanks for the kind words... :)

You know, in looking over our words, it be easy to get into a point-counterpoint discussion, and although it may be fruitful, it may be long, for which the benefit may not out way the time. So instead, if maybe we looked at various points of scripture and see each other hermeneutics behind the verse, maybe, just maybe we can find a way to see fruit faster?


So in Luke 16: 19-31, where Jesus brings the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, what do you see as the parallels or lessons?

I’ll start if you don’t mind…. in verses 27-31, were the rich man begs Abraham to send someone to warn his brothers about the place and condition he himself was in… so that they would listen to the warning if they announce that it was from his dead brother? And why did Abraham mention ‘during his lifetime’ him receiving good things and that now in his ‘death’, it was too late?

So digging into this parable, let’s see how we both view it and let’s see how it compliments each others hermeneutics.

Thanks TM...

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 28th 2007, 02:15 AM
TM,

Along with Luke 16 [above], I still want to double back to Revelation 14 and dig a bit deeper with you if you don't mind....

But before I travel back, I thought I'd share with you other scripture verses that I see pertinent to why UR is not possible IMO.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;
9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
10 "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


Matthew 13:24-30
24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.""'

Isaiah 66:21-24
21 "I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD,
"So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
24 "Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

third hero
Oct 28th 2007, 02:21 PM
PLeroo,
IN response to http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1419933&postcount=90, I would like to make a few comments.
But first, it seriously took a while for me to discover that this thread was hurled into the dungeon. I rarely look here because I do not like the idea of discussing Christianity with others from other religions for comparison, because it is my belief that no other religion comes close to the truth than Christianity, nor do I care to discover the lies that are plainly other religions. So, please forgive me for the length of time it took before I got to respond.

I see that the premise of your idea, or UR, is that at some point, all mankind will confess Lord Jesus as Lord. You, in essence, believe that that moment will be when they will turn their hearts and begin living for Lord Jesus. If they were among the living, I would definitely agree.

However, once one is dead, their condemnation is sealed, just as the rich man's fate was sealed in Luke 16. He was in hell, and we all can attest to that. However, even while in hell, he did not change. Moreover, Abraham stated something very important there in Abraham's bosom. Here it is:

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. -Luke 16:25

Abraham clearly states that all of the actions in one's lifetime determine their fate in the afterlife. The rich man was wealthy, and had all sorts of good things, and yet forfeit his soul, which was burning in hell at that point.

Now, here's where the dissention from UR comes in. You believe that at some point, Jesus is going to have that person stand before Him, and that person will confess Lord Jesus as the Son of God. You believe that at that point, in the afterlife, that person will become saved. I completely disagree, and here is why.

Yes, at some point, as it is written, all mankind will stand before Lord Jesus. And yes, at that point, they will bow their knees to Lord Jesus. All of them will confess Jesus as Lord. However, not all of them will be forgiven. Look with me to Revelation 20.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -Rev 20:10

The Lake of Fire is, in every bilical reference, an eternal place. In this place, Satan, who has seen God face to face, who has tempted Lord Jesus face to face, who hasd led the heaven and earth into the system of sin and death, is hurled into a place where they are eternally tormented. There is no hope for them. Jesus mentions this place in the Gospels as well.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: -Matthew 25:41

So you see, even in the case of Satan, who knew who Jesus is, there was no redemption for him. IN the end, he is hurled into the lake of fire, where at the point when he is hurled, he would join the two whom were thrown in first. (The beast and the false prophet). And so, according to scripture, we establish that the Lake of Fire is an eternal place, with the testimony of Lord Jesus backing that up.

NOw, who will be hurled into that horrible place?

Well, we know that those who take the mark of the beast and worship him will go there, and it is plainly stated here:

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:9-10

Here, we have those who worship the beast and take on his mark as those who are hurled into an everlasting place, a place of torment. The smoke of their torment will rise out of that place forever. This is not a limited period of time. They are gone. God will not save them. The Lamb will see the smoke of their torment forever, just as this verse proclaims. He will not go there, nor will he pull them outo f that place, and cause their torment to cease. Their action of worshipping the beast will be enough for God to cast them into the place of everylasting torment, a place designed for Satan and his angels, whom, even knowing and seeing God face to face, still loved darkness more than the light, and caused all sorts of evil to befall the earth. So, those who worship the beast, the beast, the false prophet, Satan and his angels are all who are going to that terrible place, where redemption is nil. So, according to the Bible, at least two groups are forever gone.

But the Bible does not stop there. Go back with me to Revelation 20.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Who is this judge, who sits on the Great White Throne, and judges? Well, Jesus answers this question as well.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. -John 5:26-27

This verse proclaims that Jesus is given the right to judge and execute judgment, because He, himself, is human, which it means to be a son of man. Now, what judgment did Father God give to him? Next verses, please?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. -John 5:28-29

This is where Jesus himself, proclaims that He is going to judge ALL mankind. If this is true, and I believe it, then all mankind will have no choice but to come to Lord Jesus at some point, because He is going to judge all of them.

Notice that in the preivous verses, Jesus proclaims that all who are in the graves shall live? This is what it means to come forth. When they face him, the righteous are given a resurrection of life, and the wicked are given the resurrection of damnation. Keep this in mind while we journey back to Revelation.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12

Now, Jesus, the judge on the Great white throne, judges all mankind according to their works, (what we call actions). Does something else happen at that point? Well, yes, all of the dead are risen. They are all there at the Great White Throneroom.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:13

As you can clearly see, thosewho died while in the sea, those who died whereever, they are all brought before the Lord. If they died in space, they are still brought before the Lord. Everyone shall be judged. Now, let's see the result of that judgment.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. -Revelation 20:14

Now, John is telling us that this place, a place where even death and hell are cast into, is called the second death. Jesus, in JOhn 5, called it the resurrection of damnation. He also called it a place of fire and brimstone, where Satan and his angels will go. He also called it an eternal place, where the smoke of their torment is ascended before the Lamb, and God's Holy Angels forever. Now, look who else gets thrown in.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:15

Everyone is judged. Everyone is judged on what they did while they were among the living. Those who are not found inthe Lamb's book of life are hurled into the second death, and they experience the same fate as Satan and his angels, death, hell, those who worship the beast, the false prophet, and the beast. None can escape then. Also, their eternal fates are dependent solely on what they did in their lifetimes. And that judgment is found in John 3:18

Now I want ot cover another aspect of disagreement with you, but this thread is too long as it is. Therefore, my next post will illuminate why Ur is in the wrong.

third hero
Oct 28th 2007, 03:02 PM
PLeroo,
I am sorry that these posts are so long, but since you took the time to explain to me your beliefs, it is only fitting that I share with you mine, and why I disagree with Universal Regeneration.

You have told me that the whole notion of UR is predicated on an idea that one day, God will give all of the condemned a chance to receive forgiveness after their deaths. WhileI must confess that this is different than the Catholic version of Purgatory, I still can not accept this as a Christian doctrine.

My first reason is that once someone is cast into the Lake of Fire, it is over. They are eternally finished. There is no hope for those who are cast into the Lake of Fire. Whether they are tormented, or dissolved, they are forever gone, for the Lake of Fire is a place specially designed for Satan and his angels. Unlike Hell, otherwise known as the abyss, where Satan gets released from and where all who were held there after their deaths, the Lake of Fire is a place where nothing that goes in returns. It is an eternal place of fire and brimstone, where Jesus himself called it a place of evrlasting darkness. This debunks any notion of anyone going into this place after Judgment Day being given another chance to confess Lord Jesus as the Son of God. They are not let go of, and given another chance. Their chance is blown, and they can not come to a reconciliation with God once they are dead. Their lives determine their fate, just as Christ told us so long ago.

Now for my second, and final reason why I disagree with UR.

It seems to me that the whole notion of regeneration is the notion that all men will confess Christ as the Son of God. I am sure you have heard the song which states that every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Well, that song is wrong. Here is what the verse actually says, and it is found in Phillipians.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ Lord, to the glory of God the Father. -Phillipians 2:10-11

This word, should, is very important to understanding scripture. Let's find out the definition of that word, shall we?

1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
2. Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.
3. Used to express conditionality or contingency: If she should fall, then so would I.
4. Used to moderate the directness or bluntness of a statement: I should think he would like to go.
Usage Note: Like the rules governing the use of shall and will on which they are based, the traditional rules governing the use of should and would are largely ignored in modern American practice. Either should or would can now be used in the first person to express conditional futurity: If I had known that, I would (or somewhat more formally, should) have answered differently. But in the second and third persons only would is used: If he had known that, he would (not should) have answered differently. Would cannot always be substituted for should, however. [I]Should is used in all three persons in a conditional clause: if I (or you or he) should decide to go. Should is also used in all three persons to express duty or obligation (the equivalent of ought to): I (or you or he) should go. On the other hand, would is used to express volition or promise: I agreed that I would do it. Either would or should is possible as an auxiliary with like, be inclined, be glad, prefer, and related verbs: I would (or should) like to call your attention to an oversight. Here would was acceptable on all levels to a large majority of the Usage Panel in an earlier survey and is more common in American usage than should.·Should have is sometimes incorrectly written should of by writers who have mistaken the source of the spoken contraction should've. See Usage Notes at if (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/if), rather (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rather), shall (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shall). www.thefreedictionary.com/should (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/should)

NOw, armed with these definitions, we can now accurately analyze these verses in Philipians.

Just like in John 3:16, the word "should" is atached to what the person is saying. What Paul is saying is that the everyone should bow down to Lord Jesus and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I believe that you would agree with this idea right along with me. Everyone should bow down and confess the identity of Lord Jesus. I also agree that everyone who believes in Lord Jesus should not perish. However, like definiton 3 of "should" expresses, when the word should is used in a sentence like this, the meaning is now conditionality.

Therefore, this does not necessarily mean that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confesss that Jesus Christ is Lord. This also means that Christ was not sent to the world to save all of the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. Again, the condition was set in John 3:16. The only way for the world to be saved is if they go through Him. Otherwise, the world will remain condemned. Jesus' Job was not to save all of the world, but to take sin away from the world. He did that on the Cross. Sin is gone from the world, but again, like Jesus said, it is conditonal. Sin is removd from all who would confess with their mouthes that Jesus Christ is Lord. Sin is removed when an individual bows their knee to Lord Jesus.

THis is why, as you stated, pleroo, we were all judged already, and found guilty. This is true. The difference is that a means for forgiveness is available now, while we yet live. Those who confess the identity of Lord Jesus will receive the gift of what He had done on the cross. Forgiveness and removal of sin.

Does this mean that everyone will bow their knees to Lord Jesus? Sadly, the answer is no, and Jesus, again, is the one who says it.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. -Matthew 10:32-33

This is the pivotal point right here. The condition for salvation is confessing Christ before men. This requires that a person be alive in order to confess Lord Jesus before other living mortals. Again, going back to my last point, all mankind is judged by Lord Jesus at the Great White Throneroom according to their works. If their works do not include confessing Jesus before men, then their fate will be this:

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:23

At that moment, they are hurled into the Lake of Fire, never to be seen or heard from again. Their only menory will be plume of smoke, which ascends to heaven forever.

So, once one dies, that is it. There is no second chance after death. Their actions while living will determine their fate in the afterlife. There is no going around that fact. Scriptures tell one picture, a clear picture of a limited condition for salvation. No one will be saved once dead if they did not confess Christ as Lord while they were yet among the living. There will never come a point in eternity future where God will relent and allow those who worked iniquity in their past life and denied Jesus as Lord while they were living another chance to change their ways. They will be in the second, and eternal, death.

You see, I used the words of Lord Jesus as evidence, becasue men all fallable. I can not accept anything that is not from the very lips of God. Whether something feels good, or resonnates in my soul has no bearing on whether something is the truth or not. We are human, very capable of believing a lie. We all did at one point, deciding to live according to the lusts of our flesh. Like the scripture states, there are none that are righteous, no not one.

Now in fairness, PLeroo, if you have scriptures that debunk what I am saying, and it is in the Bible, then please present them. Unless you do, I probably will not respond to any more posts in this thread other than yours. I am not so closed minded that I write off people's beliefs without giving them a chance to at least prove wha they believe using scripture. That is how I am. I am a scripture first kind of guy. If anyone confessing to be a believer tells me that they believe in something that is questionable, it is good for that person to show what they believe using scripture. If they have outside sources that further explains the scripture used to prove a point, then that is acceptible to me. However, it is scripture first, and outside resources only to buffer the scripture presented. So again, the ball is in your court.

Pleroo
Oct 28th 2007, 04:37 PM
Pleroo & Toolman,
Its not the good side of this doctrine that concerns me but rather the downside. Since the blood of Christ is all encompassing to cover and forgive the sins of all, even those who do not have faith in Him, then what need is there to punish anyone, at all, ever? Is this not what it means to be forgiven and cleansed by the blood of the Lamb? IOW the blood apparently is not so all encompassing that there still must come a fire to rid sinners of their rebellion and defilement and thereby bring them to repentance and faith - even though postitionally they are in Christ and cleansed and forgiven already. I am not trying to twist your words, but am trying to the find the angle by which this can make some sense, without turning the gospel upside down to do so.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Apparently you have the "them" as absolutely everyone coming to Christ whether in salvation or judgment?

What exactly do you think the word "condemn" means?

(Luke 11:31-32 KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. {32} The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

To me it means that one must forfeit his life.

Robin, I'm not exactly certain that I understand what you're asking but I'm going to give the best answer I can. Perhaps TM will be better able to respond.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that punishment shouldn't be necessary in view of the work of Christ on the cross?

I would say that punishment had come upon us all already. The wages of sin is death, that was the condemnation and the sentence was carried out. We were dead in our sins and we could not be in communion with God. We existed in the spiritual realm of darkness. Those who have not yet come to belief in Him continue to live under that condemnation.

The blood of Christ is indeed powerful enough to wash us clean. The Scripture tells us that the life is in the blood, so when it speaks of being cleansed by His blood, I believe that means we are cleansed by His Life -- the Life that we who believe now have and are living, having died with Him. But before a person can be raised with Christ, they must first be baptized into His death.

For me, your question comes down to a question I ask myself often ... why has God chosen, in His wisdom, to bring some through that process now and others later? Why do the Scriptures show that there is a first fruit company before the full harvest is brought in? I admit -- I don't know. But the OT types and shadows proclaimed it, and James 1:18 says it:

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

And I believe the next couple of verses in James indirectly answers the question as to why God's wrath is necessary. Because unlike the wrath of man, God's wrath DOES produce His righteousness -- through the death and Life of the Lamb in us. As you said, one must forfeit their life, and I believe that in dying with Him that is exactly what we do. Baptism into His death allows us to lay down our own "life", our selves, and begin living HIS Life. I believe that God's judgments work to bring an end to us deceiving ourselves into thinking we have life in ourselves.

19 So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; 20 for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Pleroo
Oct 28th 2007, 04:43 PM
PLeroo,
I am sorry that these posts are so long, but since you took the time to explain to me your beliefs, it is only fitting that I share with you mine, and why I disagree with Universal Regeneration.

Hi Third! I'm glad you found the thread. :)

Please forgive me, I'm afraid I am overwhelmed by the length of your posts. I so appreciate the time and effort you put into them, and I hope you'll have patience with me. I'm going to need to find a way to break it down into more managable bites for myself and that may take some time.

Pleroo
Oct 28th 2007, 05:13 PM
This is what I think are the main points that I need to address from your posts. If I'm missing something, please let me know.


1. The Lake of Fire
2. The "eternalness" of punishment
3. The "every knee bowing" passages
4. God's mercy is no longer available to those who physically die in unbelief


I have addressed what I believe may be true of #1 in post 126 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1421152&postcount=126) .

However, regardless of what it is, I think it is equally important to look at #2 in this regard. I'm going to save that for the next post. However, that could be a while in coming. Again, I ask for your patience. :)

Pleroo
Oct 28th 2007, 11:55 PM
Now, here's a doozy of a long post for ya! I ask your indulgence in this. I couldn't think of any way to make it shorter. I pray that it is clear, but apologize in advance if it is not.

One of the foundations of the Eternal Torment doctrine is the word "everlasting" or "eternal". In the process of trying to disprove Universal Reconciliation what I am going to share below came to my attention from many different sources and it is probably what most convinced me that I had to at least take a quick peek beyond my prejudice against Universal Reconciliation long enough to investigate it.

I would much prefer to give you a link to an online book that deals with this subject in depth, as I believe the author did an awesome job of explaining it, but I'm pretty certain that is not allowed. So, I'll do the best I can.

Please, take the time to look at the word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" or "forever" in the KJV: In the OT it is olam (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=05769).


Here is a list, from the book I mentioned, of the ways olam is use in the OT. I hope it will be okay to post this here because it is simply a list of Scripture and shows that the word olam does not mean never-ending:


Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days
later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
♦ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns
them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
♦ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever
[olam] until the 10th generation (De. 23:3).
♦ Hills are everlasting [olam] until made low…earth is burned
up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
♦ Mountains are everlasting
[olam] until they are scattered
(Hab. 3:6).
♦ A slave serves his master forever
[olam] until death ends
his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
♦ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting
[olam] until it vanishes
away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
♦ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness
of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
♦ These “stones” are to be a memorial forever until (Jos. 4:7)?
Where are they now?
♦ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his
death, of course (2K. 5:27).
♦ God dwells in Solomon’s temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed
(2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
♦ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until
ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
♦ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the
new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
♦ Israel’s judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
♦ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations
(Is. 60:15).


Now, the word "olam" in the Septuagint is translated with the Greek word aion (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=165&version=kjv), just so you can see the connection between the 2 words -- they were considered to be equivalent. In the KJV, however, the word aion in the NT is most often translated as "world". Aion, of course, is what in our English, would be "eon" or "age" and most modern translations do use the word "age" in place of "world". Just by looking at the OT passages you can see that this is the better translation. I, personally, think that it is easy to see that both "olam" and "aion" are best translated as "age".

Here is a list from that same book of the NT use of aion, translating it as eternity. It's obvious that it doesn't fit:

♦ What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mt. 24:3)?
♦ I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mt. 28:20).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] marry (Lu. 20:34).
♦ Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Lu. 20:35).
♦ Since the [eternity] began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
♦ Conformed to this [eternity] (Ro. 12:2).
♦ Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now
made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
♦ Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co. 1:20)?
♦ Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…
ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the
rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co. 2:6-8).
♦ Wise in this [eternity] (1Co. 3:18).
♦ Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come
(1Co. 10:11).
♦ God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
♦ Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Ga. 1:4).
♦ Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come
(Ep. 1:21).
♦ Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Ep. 2:2).
♦ In the [eternities] to come (Ep. 2:7).
♦ From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Ep. 3:9).
♦ Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
♦ Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti. 4:10).
♦ Receive him [for eternity] (Phil. 1:15). Forever or until
Onesimus, Philemon’s former slave, dies?
♦ Powers of the [eternity] to come (He. 6:5).
♦ At the end of the [eternities] (He. 9:26).
♦ We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a
saying of God (He. 11:3).

Now, let's move on to the word which the KJV translates as "eternal" or "everlasting" in the NT. This is the one, that once I understood it really opened up my understanding: Aionios (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=kjv). This is an adjective (a word used to modify a noun), and is obviously derived from the word aion. A literal rendering of that word according to the YLT, is "age-during" and never "eternal".

The best way I've heard this explained, for myself, was to look at the way in which another adjective is used, for instance, "tall". You can say:

The man is tall.
The building is tall.

Is tall going to mean the same height in both instances? No, of course, it is relative to the SUBJECT WHICH IT MODIFIES. So with ainios, or age-during. The age it modifies will determine the quality or the length of the age and will not be the same in all instances.

So, when you look at the many passages that speak of "aionios" [eternal in the KJV] or "age-during" life, the quality or length of that age is determined by the Life. We know that the Life of Christ is immortal, so we know that age-biding Life has to do, at least in part, with immortality. When a passage speaks of "aionios" or "age-during" punishment we need to look for other clues to know just what length that punishment takes on. And THAT is what is up for discussion, I believe. :)

I hope you can at least see why this opened up the realm of possibility to me that the doctrine of ETERNAL torment could possibly be wrong. I then looked at this in the greater context of what Scripture revealed of God's character, His unfailing love, His never ending mercy, the purpose of His wrath and judgments, and the many passages which directly refer to an ultimate reconciliation, of all men being made alive in Christ, etc. and the big picture of His plan of salvation began to become clearer to me.

I think I'm done for today! I'll try to address the other points in the days to come, if you are still interested. Blessings to you, ThirdHero. I'm looking forward to further conversation on this if you so wish! :)

Mograce2U
Oct 29th 2007, 01:19 AM
Pleroo,
When you get to the age in which eternity is present, the arrival of that age has a beginning but no end. If age-during applies to eternity it is in this sense. Never-ending life, never-ending torment. But a beginning? Yes - for us.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2007, 01:22 AM
Hi Pleroo,

So are you attempting to explain that life eternal has an ending?

And is it also your attempt to defend your position by finding scripture in support or to let scripture frame your position?

Please read this in a gentile gentle way, for that's my attempt in asking.

Pleroo
Oct 29th 2007, 02:50 AM
Hi Pleroo,

So are you attempting to explain that life eternal has an ending?

No, not at all. I'll copy and paste one small portion from my previous post. I realize it was quite long and you likely missed it.


So, when you look at the many passages that speak of "aionios" [eternal in the KJV] or "age-during" life, the quality or length of that age is determined by the Life. We know that the Life of Christ is immortal, so we know that age-biding Life has to do, at least in part, with immortality.


I hope that clears up what I was saying. :)



And is it also your attempt to defend your position by finding scripture in support or to let scripture frame your position?

Please read this in a gentile way, for that's my attempt in asking.

;) I pray, earnestly, that we are both reading in a Gentile way ... by the Light.

Pleroo
Oct 29th 2007, 02:59 AM
Pleroo,
When you get to the age in which eternity is present, the arrival of that age has a beginning but no end. If age-during applies to eternity it is in this sense. Never-ending life, never-ending torment. But a beginning? Yes - for us.

What I attempted to explain above (and apparently did a poor job of) is that Scripture does not say that punishment is never-ending. It says it is age-during. And it is my belief that Scripture bears out that that age has an end. Therefore, it is not never-ending.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2007, 03:06 AM
No, not at all. I'll copy and paste one small portion from my previous post. I realize it was quite long and you likely missed it.




I hope that clears up what I was saying. :)




;) I pray, earnestly, that we are both reading in a Gentile way ... by the Light.

Opps... well I'm glad that you know what I meant... :rofl:

Pleroo
Oct 29th 2007, 03:13 AM
Opps... well I'm glad that you know what I meant... :rofl:

:D

It's just a pity I'm not as good at finding my own typos as I am everyone elses. :lol: A case of logs and specks, me thinks.

Steven3
Oct 29th 2007, 10:36 AM
Hi folks
I'm not very confident about Hebrew OLAM, but Greek AION is all a problem of context because both the adjective eternal, aionios (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %232818), perpetual, for life, for ever, and the the phrase to the age (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %232816) (EIS TON AION), change depending on the context of whether one age of a series, or no specific age, the age in general, is meant. Generally, as can be seen from the dictionary examples, AIONIOS usually means eternal, and EIS TON AION usually means forever, unless there's specific context why it shouldn't. :)

Hi Pleroo :)

What I attempted to explain above (and apparently did a poor job of) is that Scripture does not say that punishment is never-ending. It says it is age-during. And it is my belief that Scripture bears out that that age has an end. Therefore, it is not never-ending.If the punishment is "destruction" as 2Thess1 then it could be "never-ending", just as a death sentence in Texas is "for ever".

The main reason anyone reads "devil and his angels... into eternal punishment" is because of the apocalyptic nature of the imagery. If it was Pilate sending thieves to "eternal punishment" we'd read it a different way because the context would be different.

Again, seeing as it seems we're talking about Gehenna-Hinnom not Hades-Sheol in this thread, if the context was back in Is66:24 where Christ's "their worm dieth not" comes from we'd know it was not neverending because eventually, no matter how high the pile of corpses, the worms will eventually run out of food. Even before then Isaiah's worms would "die" (or, rather in 10-14 days go off to the pupal stage and turn into flies, and then lay new eggs, new maggots, etc) so as with AION, depends on the context.
God bless
Steven

Pleroo
Oct 29th 2007, 03:12 PM
Hi folks
I'm not very confident about Hebrew OLAM, but Greek AION is all a problem of context because both the adjective eternal, aionios (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %232818), perpetual, for life, for ever, and the the phrase to the age (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %232816) (EIS TON AION), change depending on the context of whether one age of a series, or no specific age, the age in general, is meant. Generally, as can be seen from the dictionary examples, AIONIOS usually means eternal, and EIS TON AION usually means forever, unless there's specific context why it shouldn't. :)

It seems we agree that the context does determine the duration of the age "aion". But I think it's misleading to say that it means eternal unless the context says differently. I could just as easily say that aion means a long period of time -- unless the context says differently.




Hi Pleroo :)
If the punishment is "destruction" as 2Thess1 then it could be "never-ending", just as a death sentence in Texas is "for ever".

Hi. :)

Yet while the state of Texas does not have the power to bring forth life from death, God does.

Toolman
Oct 29th 2007, 06:59 PM
So instead, if maybe we looked at various points of scripture and see each other hermeneutics behind the verse, maybe, just maybe we can find a way to see fruit faster?

So in Luke 16: 19-31, where Jesus brings the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, what do you see as the parallels or lessons?


RBG,

I appreciate the offer and am willing to discuss various passages of scripture but it seems apparent to me that if our underlying foundations of what we each believe about the overall story of scripture, the plan of redemption and the character/attributes of God are vastly different (which they are revealed by our point/counter-points above!) then we are going to be interpreting and viewing passages thru different "lenses" of understanding.

So, honestly, if our foundation is different, then where will we end? With different conclusions of course.

While I don't have a general problem answering why I believe what I believe (and did so previously when you asked here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50), but those types of posts don't come without a great amount of time put in.

Without a doubt there are certain passages which those who hold to eternal torment use to support their position (such as Luke 16). Those who reject eternal torment will obviously understand those passages through a different lense.

Likewise, there are passages which those who hold to UR will use to support their position. Those who reject UR will obviously understand those passages through a different "lense".

So, while I appreciate the offer I'm going to have to decline at this point, if that is ok.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2007, 08:09 PM
RBG,

I appreciate the offer and am willing to discuss various passages of scripture but it seems apparent to me that if our underlying foundations of what we each believe about the overall story of scripture, the plan of redemption and the character/attributes of God are vastly different (which they are revealed by our point/counter-points above!) then we are going to be interpreting and viewing passages thru different "lenses" of understanding.

So, honestly, if our foundation is different, then where will we end? With different conclusions of course.

While I don't have a general problem answering why I believe what I believe (and did so previously when you asked here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1324766&postcount=50), but those types of posts don't come without a great amount of time put in.

Without a doubt there are certain passages which those who hold to eternal torment use to support their position (such as Luke 16). Those who reject eternal torment will obviously understand those passages through a different lense.

Likewise, there are passages which those who hold to UR will use to support their position. Those who reject UR will obviously understand those passages through a different "lense".

So, while I appreciate the offer I'm going to have to decline at this point, if that is ok.


That's fine....

Pleroo
Oct 29th 2007, 09:47 PM
This is what I think are the main points that I need to address from your posts. If I'm missing something, please let me know.


1. The Lake of Fire
2. The "eternalness" of punishment
3. The "every knee bowing" passages
4. God's mercy is no longer available to those who physically die in unbelief



Third, I don't know if you're still with me or not, but I think I can quickly address your thoughts that every knee bowing does not mean every one will be restored.

This passage, quoted in the NT, is from Isaiah, so I wanted to point your attention there. First, in that context God is saying it is His desire that all the ends of the earth will be saved, and continues by saying EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY tongue confess. He very clearly is linking this together with being saved.

Notice, too, that He says, "I have sworn by Myself"! He's not messing around about this! He's sworn by Himself that His word has gone out of His mouth, and later in Isaiah He also proclaims that His word will not return without accomplishing all that He pleases.

So, we have here
1. God desires for all to look to Him and be saved
2. God swearing by Himself that His Word has gone forth to accomplish His desire
3. God assuring us that His desire will be accomplished by that word
4. All people bowing and worshipping.

It's pretty hard not to see #4, in light of the first 3, as regarding the salvation of all, imho.:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 12:40 PM
Third, I don't know if you're still with me or not, but I think I can quickly address your thoughts that every knee bowing does not mean every one will be restored.

This passage, quoted in the NT, is from Isaiah, so I wanted to point your attention there. First, in that context God is saying it is His desire that all the ends of the earth will be saved, and continues by saying EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY tongue confess. He very clearly is linking this together with being saved.

Notice, too, that He says, "I have sworn by Myself"! He's not messing around about this! He's sworn by Himself that His word has gone out of His mouth, and later in Isaiah He also proclaims that His word will not return without accomplishing all that He pleases.

So, we have here
1. God desires for all to look to Him and be saved
2. God swearing by Himself that His Word has gone forth to accomplish His desire
3. God assuring us that His desire will be accomplished by that word
4. All people bowing and worshipping.

It's pretty hard not to see #4, in light of the first 3, as regarding the salvation of all, imho.:

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I'm a bit confused Pleroo with the above post. I can't tell by this post alone if you are writing to support UR or not...?

So assuming that you support UR I'd like to offer the following thoughts to the the Isaiah and Romans and Ephesians passages that quote every knee and every tongue:

Now there is an issue that needs to be addressed in 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' dealing with timing and the action itself... I'd like to look at both.... To the object of timing - or when does this occur, their is a stream of thought that this deals with the time during the millennial kingdom, for which the 'worship' along with knee and tongue is applied.... It's believed that Christ has returned, is ruling on the earth, and all who have survived the tribulation will worship Christ. So the every can be seen as starting during this time

There is another stream of thought that states that this is at judgment time, and that every eye will see Christ as God and in such will be made to bow down and say so, but those who died without Him as Savior, will only confess that He is God and will not and now cannot repent nor is this confession called worship.

The other issue that has to be dealt with -- is the matter of eternity.... for punishment is eternal, so then how does this figure into the equation if those who denied Christ in this life 'escape' punishment to worship Jesus in the next life?

And the other item that also needs to be reconciled into the 'every knee bowing and tongue confessing' is about the bride of Christ.... If the church is the bride, and Christ returns for the church and leaves the rest of the folks on earth to His judgment during the wrath of God, the question then comes into mind - does Jesus then take on mistresses of all the folks who die without Christ sometime after the marriage feast? Now this sound absurd, but this has to be dealt with.... if all who are in Christ are his bride, then who are the other folks then if they receive a 'get out of hell free card?' Are they then also the bride [church] at some future point? I'd say not because it's not stated within scripture and I'd add that the timing of the marriage would position this as not the case for those who deny Christ and who are being punished for denying Christ and thus their sin in hell. So then the 'where is the timing shown within scripture' that they are now accepted by Jesus as part of the bride [church]?

I see timing shown all through out scripture for all events in life, for this is know as prophecy, except for the timing that Hell is over and then all are accepted back as saved by Jesus, for one can't imply that from every knee and every tongue of Isaiah Romans and Ephesians verses along with reconciling other parts of scripture that indicate that punishment [and life] is eternal and that the church is Christ's bride, IMO.

Pleroo
Oct 30th 2007, 06:23 PM
I'm a bit confused Pleroo with the above post. I can't tell by this post alone if you are writing to support UR or not...?

I think that goes towards proving the point that's been made often ... The belief in UR (as with any doctrine) is not based on one passage alone, or even a list of proof texts, but on a comprehensive understanding of Scripture as a whole and a foundational understanding of God's character and ways. The Father continues to put pieces together for me here and there to further my understanding. But first, at some point after a long time of pondering, He allowed me a sudden burst of insight to the foundational truths in a way that I could understand and which He could build on.

Anyway, if you read my other posts in this thread, I'm sure it will be very clear that I do hold to the firm hope that God is reconciling all to Himself. :)



So assuming that you support UR I'd like to offer the following thoughts to the the Isaiah and Romans and Ephesians passages that quote every knee and every tongue:

Now there is an issue that needs to be addressed in 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess' dealing with timing and the action itself... I'd like to look at both.... To the object of timing - or when does this occur, their is a stream of thought that this deals with the time during the millennial kingdom, for which the 'worship' along with knee and tongue is applied.... It's believed that Christ has returned, is ruling on the earth, and all who have survived the tribulation will worship Christ. So the every can be seen as starting during this time

There is another stream of thought that states that this is at judgment time, and that every eye will see Christ as God and in such will be made to bow down and say so, but those who died without Him as Savior, will only confess that He is God and will not and now cannot repent nor is this confession called worship.

Yes, I'm aware of both of these streams and find agreement with neither.


The other issue that has to be dealt with -- is the matter of eternity.... for punishment is eternal, so then how does this figure into the equation if those who denied Christ in this life 'escape' punishment to worship Jesus in the next life?

I know that you and TM have discussed your different beliefs on the duration of God's wrath as well as it's ultimate purpose. I am, as far as I can tell, in full agreement with him so I won't beat a horse that's already been whipped. :lol:


And the other item that also needs to be reconciled into the 'every knee bowing and tongue confessing' is about the bride of Christ.... If the church is the bride, and Christ returns for the church and leaves the rest of the folks on earth to His judgment during the wrath of God, the question then comes into mind - does Jesus then take on mistresses of all the folks who die without Christ sometime after the marriage feast? Now this sound absurd, but this has to be dealt with.... if all who are in Christ are his bride, then who are the other folks then if they receive a 'get out of hell free card?'

I can't get past this phrase, RbG: "Get out of hell free card." The tone of that in the context which you say it sounds -- forgive me if I'm misunderstanding -- derogatory. We don't speak in such disrespectful terms for our own salvation, and I can't just let this pass without comment. I realize you don't agree that all will be saved, RbG, but I don't think it's a worthy way to speak of God's salvation, regardless of one's understanding of the scope of that salvation. I have always appreciated your great regard for the things of God, and this is not what I have come to expect of you, dear brother. :hug:




Are they then also the bride [church] at some future point? I'd say not because it's not stated within scripture and I'd add that the timing of the marriage would position this as not the case for those who deny Christ and who are being punished for denying Christ and thus their sin in hell. So then the 'where is the timing shown within scripture' that they are now accepted by Jesus as part of the bride [church]?

I see timing shown all through out scripture for all events in life, for this is know as prophecy, except for the timing that Hell is over and then all are accepted back as saved by Jesus, for one can't imply that from every knee and every tongue of Isaiah Romans and Ephesians verses along with reconciling other parts of scripture that indicate that punishment [and life] is eternal and that the church is Christ's bride, IMO.

Well, we're back to the fact that we are not in agreement on the duration of punishment. Without that agreement, we'll be running around in circles.

I'm sure you face the same thing when trying to explain your understanding of, for instance, God's sovereignty vs. the doctrine of free will. Many people aren't going to understand your viewpoint and will assume you are just picking and choosing verses that support your doctrine and ignoring the rest of Scripture. You know better, but you won't be able to convince them.

Truthfully, if you don't find TM's posts enlightening, with his knack for laying out things in such a logical manner, I don't think you'll find what I have to say persuasive in the least! At any rate, God alone reveals His truths. He may allow any of us to plant seeds, but it won't be us who does the convincing. And while we're all waiting around for each other to "get it" :lol:, I'm grateful for our common bond of faith in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 08:16 PM
I think that goes towards proving the point that's been made often ... The belief in UR (as with any doctrine) is not based on one passage alone, or even a list of proof texts, but on a comprehensive understanding of Scripture as a whole and a foundational understanding of God's character and ways. The Father continues to put pieces together for me here and there to further my understanding. But first, at some point after a long time of pondering, He allowed me a sudden burst of insight to the foundational truths in a way that I could understand and which He could build on.

Anyway, if you read my other posts in this thread, I'm sure it will be very clear that I do hold to the firm hope that God is reconciling all to Himself. :)




Yes, I'm aware of both of these streams and find agreement with neither.



I know that you and TM have discussed your different beliefs on the duration of God's wrath as well as it's ultimate purpose. I am, as far as I can tell, in full agreement with him so I won't beat a horse that's already been whipped. :lol:



I can't get past this phrase, RbG: "Get out of hell free card." The tone of that in the context which you say it sounds -- forgive me if I'm misunderstanding -- derogatory. We don't speak in such disrespectful terms for our own salvation, and I can't just let this pass without comment. I realize you don't agree that all will be saved, RbG, but I don't think it's a worthy way to speak of God's salvation, regardless of one's understanding of the scope of that salvation. I have always appreciated your great regard for the things of God, and this is not what I have come to expect of you, dear brother. :hug:

Sorry, wasn't meant to be derogatory but as emphasis in the seriousness of the position, there is no where within scripture that states that once one is in hell or Hades that there is a return... Sorry if it offended, but this was written for impact and not for degradation. So please forgive the harsh approach and I will try to be a bit more sensitive to find another way to express the point in the future.






Well, we're back to the fact that we are not in agreement on the duration of punishment. Without that agreement, we'll be running around in circles.


So then let me ask you this, will there be one day that our lives in the presence of Christ end? Meaning eternity with Christ is not enduring -- just as the claim to those who are sentenced to Hell is not enduring?



I'm sure you face the same thing when trying to explain your understanding of, for instance, God's sovereignty vs. the doctrine of free will. Many people aren't going to understand your viewpoint and will assume you are just picking and choosing verses that support your doctrine and ignoring the rest of Scripture. You know better, but you won't be able to convince them.

Truthfully, if you don't find TM's posts enlightening, with his knack for laying out things in such a logical manner, I don't think you'll find what I have to say persuasive in the least! At any rate, God alone reveals His truths. He may allow any of us to plant seeds, but it won't be us who does the convincing. And while we're all waiting around for each other to "get it" :lol:, I'm grateful for our common bond of faith in Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth and the Life.

God uses others to bring His truth to light.... He uses teachers and pastors and even strangers to reveal the understanding of His word. I love TM as a brother just as I do you as a sister...and TM does have a way with words, for I have learned a lot from him in the past. I am disappointed that we are not going to explore this deeper, but I respect his request in not desiring to do so, for he has stated that he is firm with his beliefs about UR.... which is fine.... I still care for him, and pray for him, and as I stated years ago, if I were in Texas, we'd probably worship together given the chance....

So you're right, seeing that we are all stuck in our ways... we should probably turn out the lights, close the door and not post again, seeing that our words are more for ourselves than it is for another.... Naw... It's love that drive me, and I see that it drives you and TM to participate here, so that's why we post... For I believe that God's word does not go out into a void. But I also think that there may be a day when one of us may have an Aha moment --- where we have a better understanding of what was stated.


For God's Glory...

Pleroo
Oct 30th 2007, 10:05 PM
Sorry, wasn't meant to be derogatory but as emphasis in the seriousness of the position, there is no where within scripture that states that once one is in hell or Hades that there is a return... Sorry if it offended, but this was written for impact and not for degradation. So please forgive the harsh approach and I will try to be a bit more sensitive to find another way to express the point in the future.

You did not offend me, only startled me I suppose. You have always shown a great concern that in the midst of our disagreements and discussions, our words bring glory to God. As I said, I've always appreciated that. I hope that you will take what I said in light of that. :hug:



So then let me ask you this, will there be one day that our lives in the presence of Christ end? Meaning eternity with Christ is not enduring -- just as the claim to those who are sentenced to Hell is not enduring?

Do you realize that you asked me this very question, phrased in a different way, just a few posts ago? Am I really being that unclear in my responses? (That's not a rhetorical question. :)) I do hope you'll reread what I said in my post on "eternity". I know it's long, and I am sorry for that, but it addresses what I think you're driving at here. Again, I'll copy the most pertinent part here, but reading it in the context of my entire post I think might be helpful to you.



So, when you look at the many passages that speak of "aionios" [eternal in the KJV] or "age-during" life, the quality or length of that age is determined by the Life. We know that the Life of Christ is immortal, so we know that age-biding Life has to do, at least in part, with immortality.




God uses others to bring His truth to light.... He uses teachers and pastors and even strangers to reveal the understanding of His word. I love TM as a brother just as I do you as a sister...and TM does have a way with words, for I have learned a lot from him in the past. I am disappointed that we are not going to explore this deeper, but I respect his request in not desiring to do so, for he has stated that he is firm with his beliefs about UR.... which is fine.... I still care for him, and pray for him, and as I stated years ago, if I were in Texas, we'd probably worship together given the chance....

So you're right, seeing that we are all stuck in our ways... we should probably turn out the lights, close the door and not post again, seeing that our words are more for ourselves than it is for another.... Naw... It's love that drive me, and I see that it drives you and TM to participate here, so that's why we post... For I believe that God's word does not go out into a void. But I also think that there may be a day when one of us may have an Aha moment --- where we have a better understanding of what was stated.

Oh, I don't disagree with you RbG, there is definitely a time to discuss. In this case, however, I am fully aware of and versed in the Eternal Torment doctrine having resided there quite firmly for 40+ years, and having tried vehemently to defend it not all that long ago. So, while I can and have received much from you on many issues, there's not a lot you can say to me that I didn't already consider in my desperate attempt to hold onto my previously held belief. The Father overcame all of my objections, many of them very specifically and in great detail, and all of them with the broad brush stroke of a more full glimpse of His Savior heart.

Secondly, my sense is that you're not particularly "listening" to what I've been saying in this thread. That's fine. :) As I said, I'm aware that my style of communication is probably not the easiest to work with. I'm more of a conversationalist and I've never been skilled at debate, which is what I sense you're looking for (and in case it sounds I like I think that that's a bad thing, that's not what I mean -- I just know my limitations.)


For God's Glory...

:)

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 11:05 PM
You did not offend me, only startled me I suppose. You have always shown a great concern that in the midst of our disagreements and discussions, our words bring glory to God. As I said, I've always appreciated that. I hope that you will take what I said in light of that. :hug:

I look to you and a few others here to keep me honest and humble...so when Pleroo speaks, I try to listen... for I have great respect for your approach and for what is on your heart... so I say thank you and appreciate the feedback and concern.





Do you realize that you asked me this very question, phrased in a different way, just a few posts ago? Am I really being that unclear in my responses? (That's not a rhetorical question. :)) I do hope you'll reread what I said in my post on "eternity". I know it's long, and I am sorry for that, but it addresses what I think you're driving at here. Again, I'll copy the most pertinent part here, but reading it in the context of my entire post I think might be helpful to you.

I will will go back and reread it... but


So, when you look at the many passages that speak of "aionios" [eternal in the KJV] or "age-during" life, the quality or length of that age is determined by the Life. We know that the Life of Christ is immortal, so we know that age-biding Life has to do, at least in part, with immortality.

I'm challeneged to see this 'age-during life definition... I'll go back and pull the context in and see if I understand your thoughts better




Oh, I don't disagree with you RbG, there is definitely a time to discuss. In this case, however, I am fully aware of and versed in the Eternal Torment doctrine having resided there quite firmly for 40+ years, and having tried vehemently to defend it not all that long ago. So, while I can and have received much from you on many issues, there's not a lot you can say to me that I didn't already consider in my desperate attempt to hold onto my previously held belief.

I'm humbled to say test everything to scripture - even me as I do you and TM :), with all of scripture, and if there is one scripture that doesn't fit the understanding, then there needs to be another understanding. I see a noble desire that there is UR for all creation, but there are many scriptures that detail God's wrath against sin.... If UR were true, then I'd also have to see that Satan and all the fallen angels be welcomed back from the abyss and be in communion with Christ...and again scripture doesn't say this is so.




The Father overcame all of my objections, many of them very specifically and in great detail, and all of them with the broad brush stroke of a more full glimpse of His Savior heart.

Secondly, my sense is that you're not particularly "listening" to what I've been saying in this thread. That's fine. :) As I said, I'm aware that my style of communication is probably not the easiest to work with. I'm more of a conversationalist and I've never been skilled at debate, which is what I sense you're looking for (and in case it sounds I like I think that that's a bad thing, that's not what I mean -- I just know my limitations.)



:)

Maybe I'm listening but not hearing the logic? :saint: Oh and I don't like debate - I do that enough within my profession :), I prefer to say reasoning is more biblical. You say the Father overcame your objections, how so?

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 11:45 PM
Now, here's a doozy of a long post for ya! I ask your indulgence in this. I couldn't think of any way to make it shorter. I pray that it is clear, but apologize in advance if it is not.

One of the foundations of the Eternal Torment doctrine is the word "everlasting" or "eternal". In the process of trying to disprove Universal Reconciliation what I am going to share below came to my attention from many different sources and it is probably what most convinced me that I had to at least take a quick peek beyond my prejudice against Universal Reconciliation long enough to investigate it.

I would much prefer to give you a link to an online book that deals with this subject in depth, as I believe the author did an awesome job of explaining it, but I'm pretty certain that is not allowed. So, I'll do the best I can.

Please, take the time to look at the word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" or "forever" in the KJV: In the OT it is olam (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=05769).


Here is a list, from the book I mentioned, of the ways olam is use in the OT. I hope it will be okay to post this here because it is simply a list of Scripture and shows that the word olam does not mean never-ending:


Jonah was in the fish forever [olam] until he left three days
later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
♦ Sodom’s fiery judgment is eternal [olam] until God returns
them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7).
♦ A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever
[olam] until the 10th generation (De. 23:3).
♦ Hills are everlasting [olam] until made low…earth is burned
up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
♦ Mountains are everlasting
[olam] until they are scattered
(Hab. 3:6).
♦ A slave serves his master forever
[olam] until death ends
his servitude (Ex. 21:6).
♦ The Mosaic covenant is everlasting
[olam] until it vanishes
away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
♦ The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam] until the likeness
of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
♦ These “stones” are to be a memorial forever until (Jos. 4:7)?
Where are they now?
♦ The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever [olam] until his
death, of course (2K. 5:27).
♦ God dwells in Solomon’s temple forever [olam] until it is destroyed
(2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
♦ Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever [olam] until
ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
♦ Circumcision was an everlasting [olam] covenant until the
new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6).
♦ Israel’s judgment lasts forever [olam] until the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Is. 32:13-15).
♦ I will make you an eternal [olam] excellence until many generations
(Is. 60:15).


Now, the word "olam" in the Septuagint is translated with the Greek word aion (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=165&version=kjv), just so you can see the connection between the 2 words -- they were considered to be equivalent. In the KJV, however, the word aion in the NT is most often translated as "world". Aion, of course, is what in our English, would be "eon" or "age" and most modern translations do use the word "age" in place of "world". Just by looking at the OT passages you can see that this is the better translation. I, personally, think that it is easy to see that both "olam" and "aion" are best translated as "age".

Here is a list from that same book of the NT use of aion, translating it as eternity. It's obvious that it doesn't fit:

♦ What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mt. 24:3)?
♦ I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mt. 28:20).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] marry (Lu. 20:34).
♦ Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Lu. 20:35).
♦ Since the [eternity] began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
♦ Conformed to this [eternity] (Ro. 12:2).
♦ Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now
made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
♦ Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co. 1:20)?
♦ Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…
ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the
rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co. 2:6-8).
♦ Wise in this [eternity] (1Co. 3:18).
♦ Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come
(1Co. 10:11).
♦ God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
♦ Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Ga. 1:4).
♦ Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come
(Ep. 1:21).
♦ Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Ep. 2:2).
♦ In the [eternities] to come (Ep. 2:7).
♦ From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Ep. 3:9).
♦ Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
♦ Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti. 4:10).
♦ Receive him [for eternity] (Phil. 1:15). Forever or until
Onesimus, Philemon’s former slave, dies?
♦ Powers of the [eternity] to come (He. 6:5).
♦ At the end of the [eternities] (He. 9:26).
♦ We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a
saying of God (He. 11:3).

Now, let's move on to the word which the KJV translates as "eternal" or "everlasting" in the NT. This is the one, that once I understood it really opened up my understanding: Aionios (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=kjv). This is an adjective (a word used to modify a noun), and is obviously derived from the word aion. A literal rendering of that word according to the YLT, is "age-during" and never "eternal".

The best way I've heard this explained, for myself, was to look at the way in which another adjective is used, for instance, "tall". You can say:

The man is tall.
The building is tall.

Is tall going to mean the same height in both instances? No, of course, it is relative to the SUBJECT WHICH IT MODIFIES. So with ainios, or age-during. The age it modifies will determine the quality or the length of the age and will not be the same in all instances.

So, when you look at the many passages that speak of "aionios" [eternal in the KJV] or "age-during" life, the quality or length of that age is determined by the Life. We know that the Life of Christ is immortal, so we know that age-biding Life has to do, at least in part, with immortality. When a passage speaks of "aionios" or "age-during" punishment we need to look for other clues to know just what length that punishment takes on. And THAT is what is up for discussion, I believe. :)

I hope you can at least see why this opened up the realm of possibility to me that the doctrine of ETERNAL torment could possibly be wrong. I then looked at this in the greater context of what Scripture revealed of God's character, His unfailing love, His never ending mercy, the purpose of His wrath and judgments, and the many passages which directly refer to an ultimate reconciliation, of all men being made alive in Christ, etc. and the big picture of His plan of salvation began to become clearer to me.

I think I'm done for today! I'll try to address the other points in the days to come, if you are still interested. Blessings to you, ThirdHero. I'm looking forward to further conversation on this if you so wish! :)


Hi Pleroo,



A Couple Thoughts:

Olam and aion have many meanings used within scripture based on differing forms of application and picking the translators usage and say that it means eternity every where and that it has an ending may not be the best fit for the word based on usage or context....

Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05769 `owlam {o-lawm'} or `olam {o-lawm'}
from 05956; TWOT - 1631a; n m
AV - ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15,
never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2,
more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

New Testament Greek Definition:
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age


So based on one Hebrew word in the OT and one Greek word in the NT, and applying a definition to all is not the best exegesis of scripture IMO.

So... I hear your point, but I encourage you to dig deeper into more than one word here and one word there... :). Look at the context, look at the surrounding words and order of word, and consider the history and authorship, for folks even today use one word to mean many differing things to the intended audience.


So then, if eternal torment is finite as defined by your relativity discourse, then where are the scriptures that state when hell is complete, that those in hell return back to God and all is forgiven? And then I'd be interested to hear why the need to send folks to hell in the first place?


Thanks Pleroo...

angelus5370
Oct 31st 2007, 05:20 PM
This is the first sermon I have ever heard on Hell. It cut me to the core. Please, I pray you'll watch the whole thing. It will give you a real fear for your friends, family, coworkers...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5918917853332429268&q=%22tim+conway%22+hell&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I was disappointed, because he seemed very reluctant to speak on this subject, and didn't really get a good message across. T. D. Jakes wrote and gave a sermon on "The Reality of Hell," which was much better, and John Hagee is going to give a sermon on demons, and if it's anything like the sermon he gave this week on angels, it will be powerful and worth watching on Sunday. He is solid on his sermons, and speaks without hesitation about any subjects, and is deeply rooted in God's Word.

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 5th 2007, 03:09 PM
Hi Pleroo,



A Couple Thoughts:

Olam and aion have many meanings used within scripture based on differing forms of application and picking the translators usage and say that it means eternity every where and that it has an ending may not be the best fit for the word based on usage or context....

Old Testament Hebrew Definition:
05769 `owlam {o-lawm'} or `olam {o-lawm'}
from 05956; TWOT - 1631a; n m
AV - ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15,
never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2,
more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

New Testament Greek Definition:
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age


So based on one Hebrew word in the OT and one Greek word in the NT, and applying a definition to all is not the best exegesis of scripture IMO.

So... I hear your point, but I encourage you to dig deeper into more than one word here and one word there... :). Look at the context, look at the surrounding words and order of word, and consider the history and authorship, for folks even today use one word to mean many differing things to the intended audience.


So then, if eternal torment is finite as defined by your relativity discourse, then where are the scriptures that state when hell is complete, that those in hell return back to God and all is forgiven? And then I'd be interested to hear why the need to send folks to hell in the first place?


Thanks Pleroo...

I'm taking that this thread died a natural death, which most threads always do... :)

But wanted to post one more thing before I move on as well....

Two more scriptures to ponder:

Jesus tells Nicodemus that in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven that he must be born again...

John 3:2,3
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

So to someone who is alive, Jesus gave him the condition that he must be born again as a prerequisite to inheriting the kingdom of God...


And Jesus states further that all folks born are judged

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So all born naturally have been judged, and only being born again brings the kingdom of God.


Hope all is well folks....