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Fenris
Oct 21st 2007, 01:13 AM
For thousands of years- since the beginning of creation- a piece of the world has been waiting for your soul to purify and repair it. And your soul, from the time it was first emanated and conceived, waited above to descend to this world and carry out that mission. And your footsteps were guided to reach that place. And you are there now.

Tzvi Freeman, from a meditation by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

Bing
Oct 21st 2007, 01:52 AM
I disagree. We are here because God is a God of steadfast love (Numbers 14:18) and because He desired to create a fitting bride for His Son (Genesis 2:18, Ephesians 5:31-32) in order to express Himself in the intimacy of love (Hosea 1:10, 3:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-5). The Lord desires to have those who are close enough to Him that He can share His heart with them (Amos 3:7) and who can call themselves His friends (Genesis 18:17-19, John 15:12-15). He desires to have the people of His creation as the inheritance for His Son, Jesus (Psalm 2:7-8) and He desires to make us adopted sons and co-heirs with His own Son (Galatians 4:4-7) and thus co-rulers with Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God (Revelation 3:20-21).

That is why we are here.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 21st 2007, 02:48 AM
Well we are here cause God chose to send us here to we could learn the coirrect relationship between Him and us, and experience His goodness.
On the other hand this is an ultimate test for to find out if we are willing to walk in His ways or be disobedient.

Experiencing the Torah is a multidimensional thing while we are here.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Teke
Oct 21st 2007, 04:28 AM
For thousands of years- since the beginning of creation- a piece of the world has been waiting for your soul to purify and repair it. And your soul, from the time it was first emanated and conceived, waited above to descend to this world and carry out that mission. And your footsteps were guided to reach that place. And you are there now.

Tzvi Freeman, from a meditation by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

Not sure what is meant. Is this to imply an internal/external distinction?

Fenris
Oct 21st 2007, 11:40 AM
So no one here thinks we're here to be good and do good to others? To make the world a more spiritual place?

Soj
Oct 21st 2007, 01:25 PM
So no one here thinks we're here to be good and do good to others? To make the world a more spiritual place?I do!

Everything was created to give pleasure to the One who created it, so being good, doing good to others, and making the world a more spiritual place should be results of pleasing God.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Proverbs 16:4b The LORD hath made all things for himself:


So in light of the above, the real question should be "are you fulfilling the meaning of life by pleasing the One who gave it to you?"

Teke
Oct 21st 2007, 02:10 PM
So no one here thinks we're here to be good and do good to others? To make the world a more spiritual place?

As in, "go to our Fathers house in peace". :pray: :yes:

Frances
Oct 21st 2007, 06:05 PM
We are here to Glorify our Creator God, and to determine who really desires to spend eternity with Him. . . after all, if anyone doesn't want to please Him, won't obey Him or spend time with Him during their relatively short life on earth why would they want to spend eternity with Him?

Fenris
Oct 21st 2007, 06:20 PM
We are here to Glorify our Creator God, and to determine who really desires to spend eternity with Him. . . after all, if anyone doesn't want to please Him, won't obey Him or spend time with Him during their relatively short life on earth why would they want to spend eternity with Him?
In a generic sense that may well be true, but each of us, individually, have a unique mission that only we can do.

Scruffy Kid
Oct 21st 2007, 07:44 PM
"For thousands of years- since the beginning of creation- a piece of the world has been waiting for your soul to purify and repair it. And your soul, from the time it was first emanated and conceived, waited above to descend to this world and carry out that mission. And your footsteps were guided to reach that place. And you are there now." Basically I agree: this seems to be biblical teaching. Ephesians 2:10 states "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

After making some other crucial points, Paul picks up this thought again in chapter 4:1-7 "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

Thus, Paul is saying that God has created us for good works, and has given each of us gifts, which he selected for each of us, that with these gifts we might build up Christ's body, and do the good deeds and service that will glorify God. This is similar to Jesus' admonition, in Matt. 5, that we should "let your light so shine before people that they will see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven", but with more specific emphasis on the way God calls and prepares each one of us to do various specific things -- and prepares good works so that we will be there to do them!

punk
Oct 21st 2007, 11:23 PM
For thousands of years- since the beginning of creation- a piece of the world has been waiting for your soul to purify and repair it. And your soul, from the time it was first emanated and conceived, waited above to descend to this world and carry out that mission. And your footsteps were guided to reach that place. And you are there now.

Tzvi Freeman, from a meditation by Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

This has a sort of kabbalistic ring to it.

To put it in more conventional contemporary Christian terms it sounds like he is saying that the original pure world is fallen (as in the Fall), or somehow "broken", and we each exist as part of the process to "repair" the "broken" world.

This actually points to one of the differences between a Jewish and Christian view, where the Christian view would be that the Fall can only be repaired by God through Christ by a complete recreation of the world at the Second Coming, the Jewish view allows for a more gradual repair with human participation.

This is not to say here that one or the other view is right or wrong, just to point out the background theological views you are going to run up against upholding Schneerson's take.

punk
Oct 21st 2007, 11:24 PM
We are here to Glorify our Creator God, and to determine who really desires to spend eternity with Him. . . after all, if anyone doesn't want to please Him, won't obey Him or spend time with Him during their relatively short life on earth why would they want to spend eternity with Him?

I would assert Schneerson would agree with you.

He is just describing what obeying God points us to do.

Bing
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:03 AM
So no one here thinks we're here to be good and do good to others? To make the world a more spiritual place?

No.


In a generic sense that may well be true, but each of us, individually, have a unique mission that only we can do.


Yes. Only I can love God in the way that I do. He enjoys me in a way that is totally and utterly unique.

Fenris
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:09 AM
No.Well, this is why I love being Jewish. My mission is to make the world as good a place as I am personally capable of doing; and leave the rest, and the hereafter, to God.

Bing
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:37 AM
Well, this is why I love being Jewish. My mission is to make the world as good a place as I am personally capable of doing; and leave the rest, and the hereafter, to God.
That is all well and good. I presume you believe an unbeliever will not go to heaven?

Fenris
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:04 PM
That is all well and good. I presume you believe an unbeliever will not go to heaven?No. Jews believe that God is more concerned with what we do than with what we believe. So God judges every individual on their actions, not their faith (or lack thereof).

Fenris
Oct 22nd 2007, 12:05 PM
Bing, here's a quote from a blog that illustrates my point about being Jewish:



What distinguishes success from failure is determined by the number and kind of mistakes that are made, the lessons learned from those mistakes and the contributions that are made for the greater good. The fewer mistakes made, the ability to learn from those mistakes and the commitment to elevate those around us are the universal hallmarks of success.

These are the values the Jews live by. Theirs is a culture of education, innovation, adaptation and service, not only for the singular glory of God, but even more importantly, for the elevation of man, so that he might reach the ever expanding potential that was endowed to him by God. This not simply a matter of religious expression- these values are cherished by Jews irrespective of their level of faith. They are embedded in the cultural and familial collective psyche of the Jews.



Fir those interested, the rest can be found here: http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/success-failure-and-the-jews/

Bing
Oct 24th 2007, 05:21 AM
Ah. So you believe that salvation can be purchased.

Fenris
Oct 24th 2007, 12:34 PM
Ah. So you believe that salvation can be purchased.
No. I believe our standing in the afterlife is earned, based on our actions in this life.

The Talmud states that "According to the suffering is the reward". That is to say, if one does a good deed under difficult circumstances, God views that deed as having tremendous value. To say otherwise is to cheapen God's word and even God Himself. Was it trivial that religious Jews still kept the sabbath and kosher in Nazi concentration camps? No! They showed God that they loved Him more than they loved life itself. I am certain that in their death He drew them near to Him in a loving embrace that returned their deeds a millionfold.

Joyfilled
Oct 24th 2007, 01:03 PM
I disagree. We are here because God is a God of steadfast love (Numbers 14:18) and because He desired to create a fitting bride for His Son (Genesis 2:18, Ephesians 5:31-32) in order to express Himself in the intimacy of love (Hosea 1:10, 3:4-5, Isaiah 54:4-5). The Lord desires to have those who are close enough to Him that He can share His heart with them (Amos 3:7) and who can call themselves His friends (Genesis 18:17-19, John 15:12-15). He desires to have the people of His creation as the inheritance for His Son, Jesus (Psalm 2:7-8) and He desires to make us adopted sons and co-heirs with His own Son (Galatians 4:4-7) and thus co-rulers with Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God (Revelation 3:20-21).

That is why we are here.

Amen. :) Only those who don't know Jesus would ask "why are we here?" ;)

Teke
Oct 24th 2007, 01:27 PM
No. I believe our standing in the afterlife is earned, based on our actions in this life.

The Talmud states that "According to the suffering is the reward". That is to say, if one does a good deed under difficult circumstances, God views that deed as having tremendous value. To say otherwise is to cheapen God's word and even God Himself. Was it trivial that religious Jews still kept the sabbath and kosher in Nazi concentration camps? No! They showed God that they loved Him more than they loved life itself. I am certain that in their death He drew them near to Him in a loving embrace that returned their deeds a millionfold.

Then as the elder son you should understand Christianity well.;)

Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to [his] father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Fenris
Oct 24th 2007, 01:42 PM
Then as the elder son you should understand Christianity well.;)

I don't understand how any of this applies to my post at all. Perhaps you could explain.

Teke
Oct 24th 2007, 02:21 PM
I don't understand how any of this applies to my post at all. Perhaps you could explain.

Isn't the theme of this thread, "why are we here".
You've pointed out the Jews purpose, I just pointed out the Christians.:)

Fenris
Oct 24th 2007, 02:37 PM
Isn't the theme of this thread, "why are we here".
You've pointed out the Jews purpose, I just pointed out the Christians.:)
Ah, I see. You're saying that Jews are the prodigal son? How interesting.

Fenris
Oct 24th 2007, 02:41 PM
Following to the theme "according to the suffering is the reward", I'll give you all a true tale from the Holocaust.


The Jews were in the Janowska concentration camp and the kapo in charge was a notorious Jew named Schneeweiss. Schneeweiss was a non-observant Jew who had flagrantly violated Torah law before the war. In the camp he was known for his cruelty. But one Yom Kippur eve, a few of the Jews mustered the heroic courage to ask him for permission to make a minyan for Kol Nidrei, a violation punishable by death. Schneeweiss, for some reason, allowed them. The next morning he allowed them a work detail which did not violate the holy day.

“At about twelve o’clock noon, the door opened wide and into the room stormed two angels of death, S. S. men in their black uniforms. They were followed by a food cart filled to capacity. “Noontime, time to eat bread, soup, and meat,” announced one of the two S. S. men. The room was filled with an aroma of freshly cooked food, such food as they had not seen since the German occupation: white bread, steaming hot vegetable soup, and huge portions of meat.

The tall S. S. man commanded in a high-pitched voice, “You must eat immediately, otherwise you will be shot on the spot!” None of them moved. The rabbi remained on the ladder, the Hasidim on the floor. The German repeated the orders. The rabbi and the Hasidim remained glued to their places. The S. S. men called in Schneeweiss. “Schneeweiss, if the dirty dogs refuse to eat, I will kill you along with them.” Schneeweiss pulled himself to attention, looked the German directly in the eyes, and said in a very quiet tone, “We Jews do not eat today. Today is Yom Kippur, our most holy day, the Day of Atonement.”

“You don’t understand, Jewish dog,” roared the taller of the two.

“I command you in the name of the Führer and the Third Reich, fress!”

Schneeweiss, composed, his head high, repeated the same answer. “We Jews obey the law of our tradition. Today is Yom Kippur, a day of fasting.”

The German took out his revolver from its holster and pointed it at Schneeweiss’s temple. Schneeweiss remained calm. He stood still, at attention, his head high. A shot pierced the room. Schneeweiss fell. On the freshly polished floor, a puddle of blood was growing bigger and bigger.

The rabbi and the Hasidim stood as if frozen in their places.

They could not believe what their eyes had just witnessed. Schneeweiss, the man who in the past had publicly transgressed against the Jewish tradition, had sanctified G-d’s name publicly and died a martyr’s death for the sake of Jewish honor.


The holiest man in this story is the apostate Jew. I believe that in God's eyes, his single act of Torah observance that one time outweighed all the times he violated the Law. Because that one time that he followed the Law, he paid with his very life.

Teke
Oct 24th 2007, 04:10 PM
Ah, I see. You're saying that Jews are the prodigal son? How interesting.

No. Jews are the elder son, the prodigal are Christians.

Teke
Oct 24th 2007, 04:16 PM
Following to the theme "according to the suffering is the reward", I'll give you all a true tale from the Holocaust.



The holiest man in this story is the apostate Jew. I believe that in God's eyes, his single act of Torah observance that one time outweighed all the times he violated the Law. Because that one time that he followed the Law, he paid with his very life.

That is similar to Russian stories in communist times. They refused to serve what they termed the "antichrist".
And the stories of Orthodox Christians in the east under Muslim domination. They are beheaded, from the earliest times even to present date, for their faith.

Fenris
Oct 24th 2007, 04:19 PM
No. Jews are the elder son, the prodigal are Christians.Right, that's what I meant. I don't believe that it's true, and it runs counter to the line from the Talmud that I quoted above, but it's an intriguing concept nonetheless.

Bing
Oct 24th 2007, 09:56 PM
Following to the theme "according to the suffering is the reward", I'll give you all a true tale from the Holocaust.

The holiest man in this story is the apostate Jew. I believe that in God's eyes, his single act of Torah observance that one time outweighed all the times he violated the Law. Because that one time that he followed the Law, he paid with his very life.
I'm afraid that the logic in that story makes little sense to me, friend. Are you saying that this man was justified by His faith in YHWH, or by bravely standing up and getting shot in the head? If the former, then I think you are on the right track. If the latter, then surely a Nazi criminal dying for his Fuhrer in the streets of Stalingrad would be just as righteous?

One cannot be justified simply by being brave and selfless. Many of the most wicked people in the world have been brave and selfless, even while cursing God to their graves.

punk
Oct 24th 2007, 10:30 PM
Interesting thread here.

It looks like we are getting to the faith versus works end of things, and the dangerous extremes it tends to provoke (and it is so easy to take a position to its extreme to make a debate easier to win...).

The faith position would have it that what one believes matters and what one does is secondary. The extreme is that actions do not matter, which is not only dangerously antinomian, but allows us to pat ourselves on the back for our beliefs while living lives that differ not one jot from everyone around us.

Most of first world "christendom" is probably in that last category. The proverbial martian wouldn't probably see any reason to deduce that there is a group we call "Christians" to distinguish from the rest of society.

The works position would have it that what one does matters and what one believes is secondary. The extreme is that one is only judged on one's actions.

Personally I cannot see any meaning behind a "belief" that cannot or is not put into action. If you cannot act on a belief then it is meaningless. If you do not act on a belief, then you cannot be said to believe anything.

Did the Jews in the holocaust story obviously did not just do that randomly. Either he was just plain suicidal, or he acted from the basis of a faith or a belief.

I can tell the belief was real because he acted on it. I can't tell much of the beliefs of the others since they didn't do anything (did they believe anything at all anyway?)

Faith is works.

Faith without works is just someone pretending to believe something.

In the story of the prodigal, the prodigal did something, namely decide to return home and repent. What did the son that stayed home do?

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 12:49 PM
I'm afraid that the logic in that story makes little sense to me, friend. Are you saying that this man was justified by His faith in YHWH, or by bravely standing up and getting shot in the head? Well, he was an apostate. So I doubt that he had any faith in God.


If the former, then I think you are on the right track. If the latter, then surely a Nazi criminal dying for his Fuhrer in the streets of Stalingrad would be just as righteous?
No, I think he died for upholding a Jewish law even though he probably did not even believe in God. So the 'suffering' for doing the good deed was immense; so should the reward be.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 05:05 PM
Well, he was an apostate. So I doubt that he had any faith in God.
No, I think he died for upholding a Jewish law even though he probably did not even believe in God. So the 'suffering' for doing the good deed was immense; so should the reward be.
(Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him[God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If he died just to keep a law it would seem his death was in vain since it was not accompanied by faith.

(Heb 4:1-3 KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. {2} For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them [unbelieving Israel]: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {3} For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 05:18 PM
(Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him[God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If he died just to keep a law it would seem his death was in vain since it was not accompanied by faith.

On this point we obviously are going to differ; I make note that there are no OT verses that will support your position.

amazzin
Oct 25th 2007, 05:24 PM
This is interesting because at the time Jesus lived the Jews were under Roman rule. Even Pilot could not find any fault in him. So, the jews asked for Barnabas to be exchanged and Jesus was nailed to the cross in his place. As an orthodox jew you should have known about this "Roman ruling in Palastine"?

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 05:33 PM
This is interesting because at the time Jesus lived the Jews were under Roman rule.Yes, I am aware.


Even Pilot could not find any fault in him.Pilate answered to no one; his power in Judea was absolute. If he found no fault in Jesus, why didn't he free him?


So, the jews asked for Barnabas to be exchanged and Jesus was nailed to the cross in his place. Right, the Jews wanted Barabbas freed and not Jesus. Now, why would Pilate care what they wanted? Further, where does this custom of freeing prisoners come from? No historian mentions it.


As an orthodox jew you should have known about this "Roman ruling in Palastine"?
I did know about it, except it was called 'Judea' at the time. The Romans named it 'Palestine' after they put down a Jewish revolt about 120 CE or so, to erase any Jewish presence from the land. They also renamed Jerusalem Aelia Capitolina and made it illegal for Jews to live there.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 07:15 PM
On this point we obviously are going to differ; I make note that there are no OT verses that will support your position.Which point is that - that faith is not a necessary component for true obedience? Is the law merely "step on a crack and break your mother's back"?

(Deu 32:20 KJV) And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

(Hab 2:4 KJV) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 07:24 PM
Which point is that - that faith is not a necessary component for true obedience? Is the law merely "step on a crack and break your mother's back"?
This point:
If he died just to keep a law it would seem his death was in vain since it was not accompanied by faith.I don't believe his death was in vain.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 07:51 PM
This point: I don't believe his death was in vain.
It is interesting that you honor this man whom you consider an apostate, for taking a stand on the day of atonement to keep the law of fasting, yet Jesus who in obedience to His Father died on cross for the sins of Israel and the world - you find died in vain as far as Israel is concerned.

Teke
Oct 25th 2007, 08:00 PM
Pilate answered to no one; his power in Judea was absolute. If he found no fault in Jesus, why didn't he free him?

As the account goes, "Jhn 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. (13) When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha."

Pilate and the Jews are sly as snakes about this.
BTW there were six trials (3 of Jews and 3 of Rome) of Jesus in the 24 hrs before He was crucified. The Jews broke their own laws in doing so after dark. But then even the high priest was corrupt and replaced by another just as corrupt.



Right, the Jews wanted Barabbas freed and not Jesus. Now, why would Pilate care what they wanted? Further, where does this custom of freeing prisoners come from? No historian mentions it.


It would be accurate to say there is no record of a custom of releasing prisoners on a Palestinian holiday. Why Pilate cares I addressed above.



As Miller cites

However, it is not out of line with what we know about the political climate of the day. We know, for example, that political prisoners (like Barabbas) WERE released for various reasons (Jos. Antiq. XX, ix.3; Livy, V.13; cf. Deismann, "Light from the Ancient East", p 267), that Roman officials seem to have granted mass amnesty at some other regular feasts (outside of Palestine) and to have occasionally acquitted prisoners in responses to crowds (BBC, p. 309).

Plus, this 'custom' (and its exercise on Barabbas) is one of the few gospel events referred to in an independent manner by Luke, Mark-Matthew, and John (judging by the presence/absence of details/structures in the narrative), as well as the early reference in Act 3:14 as part of the sermon of Peter . Their individual accounts argue for independent streams of information, suggesting a stronger basis in history (since they all WITNESS TO the 'basics' of the event).

There is, in light of the data, no reason to make such an absolute statement as 'there was never...'.

We do know of a Roman practice called the "abolitio" - the acquittal of a prisoner not yet condemned [JBz.TJ, 207, - Blinzler, Josef. The Trial of Jesus. Mercier Press: 1959] .
If no one had been condemned yet........:rolleyes:

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 08:01 PM
It is interesting that you honor this man whom you consider an apostate, for taking a stand on the day of atonement to keep the law of fasting
His act was of supreme sacrifice. He didn't believe that he was going to heaven for doing it; as an apostate, he just believed that he was going to die. Yet he did it anyway. Is such an act not precious to God- the very definition of a sacrifice with no expectation of a reward?!


yet Jesus who in obedience to His Father died on cross for the sins of Israel and the world - you find died in vain as far as Israel is concerned.He was one of more than 100,000 Jews who were crucified by the Romans. That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.

Now, if I accept your claims with Jesus as the son of God, dying seems to me to be no sacrifice at all. He knew what was after this world, he knew where he was going. A short period of discomfort would mean nothing to a being of eternal existence.

Mograce2U
Oct 25th 2007, 08:18 PM
His act was of supreme sacrifice. He didn't believe that he was going to heaven for doing it; as an apostate, he just believed that he was going to die. Yet he did it anyway. Is such an act not precious to God- the very definition of a sacrifice with no expectation of a reward?!
He was one of more than 100,000 Jews who were crucified by the Romans. That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.

Now, if I accept your claims with Jesus as the son of God, dying seems to me to be no sacrifice at all. He knew what was after this world, he knew where he was going. A short period of discomfort would mean nothing to a being of eternal existence.Then I suppose if you are hoping in the resurrection from the dead that death is no big deal to you either? This apostate died a more merciful death, as you said, with no hope of reward. Yet you think this is of great value in the sight of the Lord? The death of His saints, is what God says is precious in His sight.

(Psa 116:15 KJV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Jesus was the most precious of all the sons of Israel in the Father's eyes for His faith and obedience, and yet you do not honor Him.

Teke
Oct 25th 2007, 08:22 PM
!
He was one of more than 100,000 Jews who were crucified by the Romans. That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.



Then why would the death of any Jew be exemplary to you....

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 08:32 PM
(Psa 116:15 KJV) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.We all have our own definitions of entry to sainthood. In mine, that man qualifies.


Jesus was the most precious of all the sons of Israel in the Father's eyes for His faith and obedience,His faith and obedience does not appear to me to be any greater than that of countless Jews martyred through the ages.

The Talmud tells us that Rabbi Akiva loved G-d so much, that he even taught His Torah despite that Rome had outlawed it. When the Romans caught him teaching, they sentenced him to a painful death. They took a large iron comb and began to scrape off his flesh. At that time, he realized that the time to say Shema had arrived, and so he began to say it. As his students looked on in horror, Rabbi Akiva told them, "All my life I never was able to fulfill the commandment to 'love G-d with ALL YOUR SOUL,' until now." As he said the word "One," of "Hear O Israel! The Lord is G-d the Lord is One," he extended it. When he finished saying that word he died.

Fenris
Oct 25th 2007, 08:33 PM
Then why would the death of any Jew be exemplary to you....
Correction: The death of every Jew is exemplary to me.

diffangle
Oct 25th 2007, 10:56 PM
Correction: The death of every Jew is exemplary to me.


That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.


Including Yahushuas?

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 25th 2007, 11:22 PM
He was one of more than 100,000 Jews who were crucified by the Romans. That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.

His death as recorded in the NT was a slight bit different than most that were crucified. For one, His bones were not broken, as was customarily done. Crucification usually left people alive for more than just 6 hours, so therefore to hasten death bones were always broken after a certain amount of time.
Yeshua laid His life down at the same time the Passover lamb was slaughtered in the temple on the afternoon sacrifice.


Now, if I accept your claims with Jesus as the son of God, dying seems to me to be no sacrifice at all. He knew what was after this world, he knew where he was going. A short period of discomfort would mean nothing to a being of eternal existence.
A short period of discomfort.... :o Ok.. well since it;s really no big deal, why don't you go climb on a cross, and become the long sought for Messiah since you're also a Jew and you also fulfill all the prophecies listed in the bible.

That short period of discomfort surely won't bother you either then.

You forget that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, therefore He underwent the same we all undergo, we eat, drink, eliminate, feel cold, hungry, etc......To belittle His pain is near blasphemous in my eyes.

Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 03:17 AM
His act was of supreme sacrifice. He didn't believe that he was going to heaven for doing it; as an apostate, he just believed that he was going to die. Yet he did it anyway. Is such an act not precious to God- the very definition of a sacrifice with no expectation of a reward?!
He was one of more than 100,000 Jews who were crucified by the Romans. That does not make his death exemplary in my opinion.

Now, if I accept your claims with Jesus as the son of God, dying seems to me to be no sacrifice at all. He knew what was after this world, he knew where he was going. A short period of discomfort would mean nothing to a being of eternal existence.Fenris,
You are a hard man. "Supreme sacrifice"? Because in this one deed in which his life was taken without any testimony to God whatsoever for a law in which the irony seems to be lost on you; vs Jesus who healed the sick, raised the dead and spoke righteousness against the wicked Pharisees & Sadducees of His day - yet you say "big deal". Is it any wonder the Jews have it so ruff these last 2 millenia?

Yet you are here with us - why?

Fenris
Oct 26th 2007, 09:36 AM
Including Yahushuas?
Jesus's death, to me, is no different from the 100,000+ other Jews crucified by the Romans in the period.

Fenris
Oct 26th 2007, 09:40 AM
His death as recorded in the NT was a slight bit different than most that were crucified. For one, His bones were not broken, as was customarily done. Crucification usually left people alive for more than just 6 hours, so therefore to hasten death bones were always broken after a certain amount of time.
My understanding is that his death was pretty quick for a crucifixion, actually. Regardless, the only reason we have to believe that 'his bones were not broken' is to fulfill the prophecy below.


Yeshua laid His life down at the same time the Passover lamb was slaughtered in the temple on the afternoon sacrifice.
So? The passover sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice.


A short period of discomfort.... :o Ok.. well since it;s really no big deal, why don't you go climb on a cross, and become the long sought for Messiah since you're also a Jew and you also fulfill all the prophecies listed in the bible.As I have stated many times already, more than 100,000 other Jews were also crucified in the period. More than 1 million Jews, overall, were killed by the Romans during the various revolts.



You forget that Yeshua was the Word of God in the flesh, therefore He underwent the same we all undergo, we eat, drink, eliminate, feel cold, hungry, etc......To belittle His pain is near blasphemous in my eyes.To imagine that God has a body and can feel pain and be killed in near blasphemous in my opinion.

Fenris
Oct 26th 2007, 09:47 AM
Fenris,
You are a hard man.I'll take that as a compliment. :D


"Supreme sacrifice"? Because in this one deed in which his life was taken without any testimony to God whatsoever for a law in which the irony seems to be lost on you;Yes, because he did the right thing with no expectation of a reward. He did the right thing for it's own sake; there is no higher act.


vs Jesus who healed the sick, raised the dead and spoke righteousness against the wicked Pharisees & Sadducees of His day - yet you say "big deal"Yes, what is the big deal? God is God, He can do whatever He wants. If He chooses to come down and yell at bad people or heal people or even raise the dead, how is that a big deal?


Is it any wonder the Jews have it so ruff these last 2 millenia? Why, because we have theological differences with Christians it means we deserve to be punished at their hands?


Yet you are here with us - why?Because it is God's will that there are 2 billion of you, and I want to learn more so I can figure out why.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 01:27 PM
Fenris,

Because it is God's will that there are 2 billion of you, and I want to learn more so I can figure out why.How is it going so far? Does anything we say to you make sense? I guess I am wondering if whether or not you believe the gospel of Jesus, can you understand why we do - and does that make sense to you?

I am guessing that the biggest stumble for you is our claim that Jesus is God in the flesh. Yet this is the very thing that is the core of what we proclaim. I had no faith or understanding of who Jesus is until that revelation was granted to me. He is the key to the puzzle and His unity with the Father is what unlocks faith and understanding. You seem to know a lot more about Him than I did when I came to faith. Have you ever honestly been able to consider whether any of what the gospels say might be true? And that other Jews have been able to?

I am full of questions for you this morning - you ARE a puzzle to me!

Fenris
Oct 26th 2007, 01:58 PM
Fenris,
How is it going so far? Does anything we say to you make sense? I guess I am wondering if whether or not you believe the gospel of Jesus, can you understand why we do - and does that make sense to you? Well, to be honest, I am less interested in the theology of Jesus than in the moral and ethical values that you espouse. My starting point is that Judaism is the ideal (of course! :lol:) and then trying to figure out how far/ how close you guys are. Of course, along the way I do seem to get distracted into discussions about Jesus and such; and while it is not my primary purpose for being here, I do find your views on the subject interesting.


I am guessing that the biggest stumble for you is our claim that Jesus is God in the flesh. Yes, I would say that the belief of God as man is the single biggest difference we have. Ultimately, I am hoping that it is not too big a hurdle towards a genuine understanding and partnership between our two faiths.




Have you ever honestly been able to consider whether any of what the gospels say might be true? My problem with the veracity of the gospels is twofold: The theological problems, from the Jewish perspective, are one; and the historical problems are the other.



you ARE a puzzle to me!I am to myself sometimes, actually.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 02:42 PM
Fenris,
Since the OP is "why are we here?" I think we are still in the context of what this thread seems to be about.

When you consider the moral and ethical values that Christians espouse, what exactly do you think doesn't line up with what Judaism teaches? My reference would be Matthew 5-7 and other places where Jesus spoke about Moses' law. Is there something in particular that you find contradicting?

Fenris
Oct 26th 2007, 02:48 PM
Fenris,
Since the OP is "why are we here?" I think we are still in the context of what this thread seems to be about.

When you consider the moral and ethical values that Christians espouse, what exactly do you think doesn't line up with what Judaism teaches?
Mostly, I think that they do. The differences are present, but they are also subtle. I feel that any differences in the ethics and morals tend to come from a different worldview than the ethics and morals themselves per se. I feel that Christianity tends to have a more idealistic view and Judaism tends to have a more practical view. For example, Judaism would consider the use of violence in defense of an innocent to be a holy act, and Christianity (many strains, at least) would view it with regret. The difference being, of course that in an ideal world there would be no violence.

This is my opinion, anyway.

Mograce2U
Oct 26th 2007, 04:23 PM
Mostly, I think that they do. The differences are present, but they are also subtle. I feel that any differences in the ethics and morals tend to come from a different worldview than the ethics and morals themselves per se. I feel that Christianity tends to have a more idealistic view and Judaism tends to have a more practical view. For example, Judaism would consider the use of violence in defense of an innocent to be a holy act, and Christianity (many strains, at least) would view it with regret. The difference being, of course that in an ideal world there would be no violence.

This is my opinion, anyway.So would you say that while we do not keep the law in the same way (traditionally), we do agree with its requirements which are moral/ ethical?

And yes, there are some within Christendom who do not feel we should ever confront evil with violence to protect the lives of the oppressed, because we see our battle against evil as mainly spiritual. We believe that vengeance belongs to the Lord and prayer is the avenue we are to seek. I have seen this work many times - though not personally in war. Others here however who have been in war have seen that God can work upon the hearts of even our enemies.

I am divided as to whether this means we never should use force. The USA stood by while Hitler slaughtered millions, when they had the power to stop it. Even turning away refugees from our shores. This is immoral and I don't see that anyone of conscience can justify their passivity. But even if being a soldier is objectionable to some, there are many other ways to aid a just cause and work to keep our borders safe for the society in which we live. But I do not see that that ever preempts prayer.

Because David was a man of blood, he was prevented from building the temple. But I think that is not because he was a warrior in battle, but because of the part he had in having Uriah slain unjustly - even though this was forgiven him when he repented - there were still consequences for it in his life.

To me "idealism" as you call it, must also have a practical application. Faith works righteousness in the world, and is the proof one actually has the faith he proclaims. Though the works apart from trusting in the power of God to do His will, are not necessarily. We must be in His will if we are to see His works done in the earth. This is not a perfect science to us because it is spiritual and we still have sin. Therefore the glory of the Lord must be preeminent in all that we do and the word of God must guide us.

This is the relationship we see Adam had in the garden with God before the fall, while our relationship to the Lord is thru the Holy Spirit who must contend with our sin. All Christians have the testimony of a changed heart which is what initiated a change in our actions. Judaism seems to see it the other way around - that right actions change the heart. If that were the case then Ezekiel's admonishment to the righteous not to turn back to sin would be unnecessary. David in Ps 51 knew that it was his heart that God required and requested that the Lord not take the Holy Spirit from him. The power to not sin then was dependent upon the grace of the Lord not upon his deeds. It was by the Spirit that he expected to be able to teach transgressors the way of the Lord.

The testimony in the gospels is that the promised Holy Spirit has come to indwell all the people by faith from Pentecost forward, because of Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection which made atonement for sin. That sin is no longer a barrier between God and the man who is come into relationship with the risen Christ by believing faith. The Father thus accepts them, gives them a new heart that they might know Him, and shows Himself to them thru answered prayer.

Where is the objection in Judaism that this was not the promise in which the OT saints hoped would come?

Bing
Oct 27th 2007, 12:37 PM
(Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him[God]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If he died just to keep a law it would seem his death was in vain since it was not accompanied by faith.

On this point we obviously are going to differ; I make note that there are no OT verses that will support your position.

Genesis 15:6 is a verse that Paul, the writer of many of the New Testament letters, used to back up his understanding that it was Abram's belief in God that justified him as righteous in God's sight, not his actions.

To comment in extreme brevity on the "100,000 Jews" that the Romans crucified, or on any other human being ever to suffer, Jewish or goyim, the Bible indicts us all: Psalm 14:3 is another verse cited by Paul, who points out that none are righteous. All we like sheep have gone astray - all, Isaiah says (53:6) - and that includes every single person who has suffered in history.

There is no innocent victim in this world. David knew this well. After murdering a man and seducing his wife, his son died. Had David sinned against Uriah? Against Bathsheba? Against his infant son? Against himself? Against his nation?

No, for all of those had themselves sinned, and were guilty of the full penalty of the Law. David knew that he had sinned only against God (Psalm 51:4.

In that light, if Jesus was the Son of God, if Jesus was the one to lay His life down on behalf of any who wished to be saved from just judgement, His death was incalculably more valuable than the death of any other.

If I were crucified in your stead, Fenris, it would accomplish nothing. According to the Law of God I am a sinner, and deserve my death just as much as you do. It was Jesus' death that was "an offering for sin" (Isaiah 53:10) in order to "bear the sin of many" (Isaiah 53:12).

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 12:21 PM
So would you say that while we do not keep the law in the same way (traditionally), we do agree with its requirements which are moral/ ethical?
Christianity has done an excellent job of both civilizing man and spreading the word of God. Since we do not believe that non-Jews are held t the same strict standards as Jews with regard to the Law, it has therefore brought billions of people to serve God in a generally acceptable way.


Where is the objection in Judaism that this was not the promise in which the OT saints hoped would come?Because the messianic verses were not fulfilled in a way that was expected.

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 12:33 PM
Genesis 15:6 is a verse that Paul, the writer of many of the New Testament letters, used to back up his understanding that it was Abram's belief in God that justified him as righteous in God's sight, not his actions.You are reading the verse out of context. Let's look at the paragraph:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying: 'Fear not, Abram, I am thy shield, thy reward shall be exceeding great.' 2 And Abram said: 'O Lord GOD, what wilt Thou give me, seeing I go hence childless, and he that shall be possessor of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' 3 And Abram said: 'Behold, to me Thou hast given no seed, and, lo, one born in my house is to be mine heir.' 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying: 'This man shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.' 5 And He brought him forth abroad, and said: 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars, if thou be able to count them'; and He said unto him: 'So shall thy seed be.' 6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

God tells Abraham that he will be rewarded. Abraham points out that whatever reward he gets will go to his trusted servant, since he has no children. God says, don't worry, you will have many descendants. And Abraham trusted God that he would, indeed, have many descendants.

Not abstract belief in God, since he spoke to God many times, but rather belief in God's promise.


the Bible indicts us all: Psalm 14:3 is another verse cited by Paul, who points out that none are righteous. This does not idnict us all: it refers to Nebuchadnezzar and his army, despoiling Jerusalem.


All we like sheep have gone astray - all, Isaiah says (53:6) - and that includes every single person who has suffered in history.Yeah, that refers to you guys, not us. We are the servant.



According to the Law of God I am a sinner, and deserve my death just as much as you do.That may be true, but your own death, or mine for that matter, is one way that we are forgiven.

diffangle
Oct 28th 2007, 02:07 PM
Quote:
All we like sheep have gone astray - all, Isaiah says (53:6) - and that includes every single person who has suffered in history.
Yeah, that refers to you guys, not us. We are the servant.

Judah has never gone astray? Wasn't it Judah's straying that caused their Babylonian captivity?

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 02:11 PM
Judah has never gone astray? Wasn't it Judah's straying that caused their Babylonian captivity?Of course we have. But the Jews are not the speaker in 53:6; the nations are. Context is important. It doesn't prove anything when you isolate a verse from the ones around it.

diffangle
Oct 28th 2007, 02:12 PM
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The Jewish people have carried the gentile's sorrows? The gentile's are healed b/c of the Jewish people's stripes?

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 02:21 PM
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The Jewish people have carried the gentile's sorrows? The gentile's are healed b/c of the Jewish people's stripes?Of course; the Jews deserved to be destroyed. If they Jews were destroyed, the world would cease to exist. So the Jews were exiled instead ("cut off from the land of the living", i.e. the land of Israel. See Ezekiel 26:20 for a similar reference). So the Jews accepted the price of exile to save the world; the gentiles sin by punishing us and through that the world continues to exist.

diffangle
Oct 28th 2007, 02:23 PM
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The gentiles are justified by the Jewish people and they bear our iniquities? Jewish peeps make intercession for our transressions?

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 02:30 PM
The gentiles are justified by the Jewish people and they bear our iniquities?Rashi says that Israel will judge with righteousness those who come to be judged.
Jewish peeps make intercession for our transressions?Yes, that happens even today. On Yom Kippur we confess the sins of the world and ask God to forgive everyone. We are a kingdom of priests, after all....

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 03:17 PM
So? The passover sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice.

Neither is Jesus Christ.


As I have stated many times already, more than 100,000 other Jews were also crucified in the period. More than 1 million Jews, overall, were killed by the Romans during the various revolts.

Is a number of Jews killed any more significant than any other number of people being killed or dying?


To imagine that God has a body and can feel pain and be killed in near blasphemous in my opinion.

It's not to Christians because it shows He knows us completely having experienced our "being" (created state or nature) within a period of our time. Which also means we have shared with Him as well. He is not an unreachable God. When our heart seeks Him we find Him. ;)

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 03:21 PM
Neither is Jesus Christ.That's not my understanding.



Is a number of Jews killed any more significant than any other number of people being killed or dying?No; although Jews always seem to be on the receiving end of violence. But the point was that Jesus was one of many many Jews crucified by the Romans.



It's not to Christians because it shows He knows us completely having experienced our "being" (created state or nature) within a period of our time. Which also means we have shared with Him as well. He is not an unreachable God. When our heart seeks Him we find Him. ;)God has no need to experience anything. He is perfect and unchanging, and He already knows everything. Including what it's like to be human.

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 03:53 PM
That's not my understanding.

Either you've been misinformed or have misunderstood.
There are many apostate Christians just as there are in any religion.


No; although Jews always seem to be on the receiving end of violence. But the point was that Jesus was one of many many Jews crucified by the Romans.

Historically the church never held the crucifixion as its pinnacle of truth. Like you said, it's no big deal if a mere man dies. That is quite true.
It is the Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection which is dogma of the historical Christian Church.


God has no need to experience anything. He is perfect and unchanging, and He already knows everything. Including what it's like to be human.

You are correct that God needs nothing, it is us who are in need of Him. :hug:

Mograce2U
Oct 28th 2007, 06:30 PM
Fenris,

So? The passover sacrifice was not a sin sacrifice.The Passover sacrifice provided the blood which was then placed on the lintels of the door so that when God's judgment came upon the Egyptians, Israel would be spared. This is the earthly picture of a spiritual truth which is also prophetic concerning God's eternal plan to redeem men.

Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, provides the blood that covers us and protects us from the eternal judgment that is coming upon the rest of the world because of sin. Those who put their faith in His blood are spared the 2nd death/ lake of fire, because they have their names written in the Lamb's book of life.

Moses makes a reference to God's book in which his name could be blotted out. This would seem to be in reference to earthly life in which all who are born are written, and which death could remove. Those who are in the Lamb's book however, remain there and are the ones who receive eternal life.

Jesus could not have orchestrated that His death upon the cross would come at that exact time when the Levitical priests were slaying the lambs for Passover. A literal as well as spiritual darkness fell over the land during the 3 hours He hung on the cross, and a great mourning filled the land. An earthquake occured at the moment of His death and graves opened in Jerusalem - 3 days later men came up out of their graves and went into the city and were seen by many. The resurrected Jesus was seen by 500 men at one time.

Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews was the sign written by Pilate to hang on the cross. Hosanna is what the people cried as He entered Jerusalem on the foal of an ass just a few days before, calling out to Him "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

When He cried out "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" it was a direct quote from Ps 22. Why? because it was being fulfilled.

Have you read it? What appeared to be the Father forsaking the Son was far from what was really happening. It was God's plan from before the foundation of the earth, to redeem His people from the sin that so easily beset them.

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 06:53 PM
Fenris,
The Passover sacrifice provided the blood which was then placed on the lintels of the door so that when God's judgment came upon the Egyptians, Israel would be spared. This is the earthly picture of a spiritual truth which is also prophetic concerning God's eternal plan to redeem men.Well, that's one way of looking at it. The Jews never saw it that way though. They simply saw it as a way to commemorate the miracles God performed in taking us out of Egypt.


Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, provides the blood that covers us and protects us from the eternal judgment that is coming upon the rest of the world because of sin. Those who put their faith in His blood are spared the 2nd death/ lake of fire, because they have their names written in the Lamb's book of life. Yes, I recognize this as a Christian belief.


Moses makes a reference to God's book in which his name could be blotted out. This would seem to be in reference to earthly life in which all who are born are written, and which death could remove. Those who are in the Lamb's book however, remain there and are the ones who receive eternal life.Well, you're reading the bible as though it has many levels. I am sure that sometimes it does, but I don't know if this is what it means in this case. It is an interesting juxtaposition you make, though.


Jesus could not have orchestrated that His death upon the cross would come at that exact time when the Levitical priests were slaying the lambs for Passover. A literal as well as spiritual darkness fell over the land during the 3 hours He hung on the cross, and a great mourning filled the land. An earthquake occured at the moment of His death and graves opened in Jerusalem - 3 days later men came up out of their graves and went into the city and were seen by many. The resurrected Jesus was seen by 500 men at one time.Well, you have to have faith that this happened, because it is recorded nowhere else.


Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews was the sign written by Pilate to hang on the cross.Right, but Jewish kings are anointed by a prophet, not proclaimed with a sign hung by a non-Jew.


When He cried out "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" it was a direct quote from Ps 22. Why? because it was being fulfilled.

Have you read it? What appeared to be the Father forsaking the Son was far from what was really happening. It was God's plan from before the foundation of the earth, to redeem His people from the sin that so easily beset them.
Psalm 22 was written by David, and it appears to be about some of the bleaker aspects of his life. It doesn't look messianic at all, to me.

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 07:13 PM
FYI,


Quote Morgrace
Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews was the sign written by Pilate to hang on the cross.

Quote Fenris
Right, but Jewish kings are anointed by a prophet, not proclaimed with a sign hung by a non-Jew

______________________

The sign was not a proclamation, it was a condemnation. Jesus was crucified for sedition. The Jews had picked their king as Ceasar. :rolleyes:

Morgrace, Christianity is not based on Judaism, it is founded on Jesus Christ. Our principle hermeneutic with scripture is Christological not Judaical. :cool:

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 07:19 PM
The sign was not a proclamation, it was a condemnation.So then Jesus was never a Jewish king.


The Jews had picked their king as Ceasar. :rolleyes:Tell that to the millions of Jews killed for revolting against Cesear.

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 07:36 PM
So then Jesus was never a Jewish king.

Is God a Jewish king?



Tell that to the millions of Jews killed for revolting against Cesear.

As I posted previously, they were sly as Pilate was. Had they not condemned Jesus they would have been guilty of sedition as well (by default that means they supported Ceasar, FYI they did accuse Pilate of not being a friend of Ceasar). BTW, Barabus was a known rebel that Pilate had been dealing with. Pilate knew what would further the Jews destruction, so he let their rebellion continue to their defeat.

The whole of OT history is of rebellious Israel. They were always in rebellion.

Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;

Jer 5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 07:39 PM
Is God a Jewish king?
No, God isn't Jewish and He isn't human.



As I posted previously, they were sly as Pilate was. Had they not condemned Jesus they would have been guilty of sedition as well (by default that means they supported Ceasar, FYI they did accuse Pilate of not being a friend of Ceasar)Ah. Those sly clever Jews.:rolleyes:


BTW, Barabus was a known rebel that Pilate had been dealing with. Pilate knew what would further the Jews destruction, so he let their rebellion continue to their defeat.Pilate was a dictator. He did not need an excuse to kill anybody.

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 07:43 PM
The whole of OT history is of rebellious Israel. They were always in rebellion.No they weren't. You guys have a funny read on the bible. I think it makes it easier for you to justify why they didn't accept Jesus, because any other possibility is unpalatable.


Isa 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;Describing HIS generation, not all Jews for all time.


Jer 5:23 But this people hath a revolting and a rebellious heart; they are revolted and gone.
Describing HIS generation, not all Jews for all time.

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 08:18 PM
No they weren't. You guys have a funny read on the bible. I think it makes it easier for you to justify why they didn't accept Jesus, because any other possibility is unpalatable.

History speaks for itself. I'm not choosing sides on the matter, it was a way of life in the land. They fought over land and water rights from Abraham on. Jacob himself, even wrestled with heavenly power.
They were under Babylonian and Persian rule and uprised when they thought they could win. Which if I recall, was the only time the kings really had a problem.

All one can really say is they got their way.


Describing HIS generation, not all Jews for all time.

Describing HIS generation, not all Jews for all time.

Well, from Exodus they are called "stiffnecked".
Exd 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:

Fenris
Oct 28th 2007, 08:24 PM
History speaks for itself.
Because doing the right thing sometimes means fighting. You make it sound as though rising up against an evil dictator is bad. Jews have always valued freedom and individual rights; if that's your worst condemnation against Jews, I'll accept it gladly as a compliment.

Teke
Oct 28th 2007, 08:43 PM
Because doing the right thing sometimes means fighting.

Yes, because everyone is not going to agree what the "right thing" is. Just as the rest of Israel didn't agree with all Judah did.


You make it sound as though rising up against an evil dictator is bad.

I am the judge of no man, whether they rose up or not. Even the "dictator" does the will of God.


Jews have always valued freedom and individual rights; if that's your worst condemnation against Jews, I'll accept it gladly as a compliment.

I'm not condemning Jews. Other people feel just as strongly about freedom, but their view may not be "Jewish". That doesn't make them wrong.

Bing
Oct 29th 2007, 05:11 AM
You are reading the verse out of context. Let's look at the paragraph:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying: 'Fear not, Abram, I am thy shield, thy reward shall be exceeding great.' 2 And Abram said: 'O Lord GOD, what wilt Thou give me, seeing I go hence childless, and he that shall be possessor of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' 3 And Abram said: 'Behold, to me Thou hast given no seed, and, lo, one born in my house is to be mine heir.' 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying: 'This man shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.' 5 And He brought him forth abroad, and said: 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars, if thou be able to count them'; and He said unto him: 'So shall thy seed be.' 6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

God tells Abraham that he will be rewarded. Abraham points out that whatever reward he gets will go to his trusted servant, since he has no children. God says, don't worry, you will have many descendants. And Abraham trusted God that he would, indeed, have many descendants.

Not abstract belief in God, since he spoke to God many times, but rather belief in God's promise.
I like context too. I know it was belief in God's promise. Does that speak of faith as salvatory, or the sum total of a person's actions?


This does not idnict us all: it refers to Nebuchadnezzar and his army, despoiling Jerusalem.
Let us imagine that you are right. You are not right, for the indictment is levelled at "the children of man" - and the Jewish people are as much sons of Adam as the rest of us. But let us imagine that you are right, and that the Psalmist is talking of Babylon. Are you insinuating that the Jewish race is inherently sinless? Because that is nonsense, and just as racist as any lie from history. I have never heard any Rabbi teach anything like that. Nor is that an idea upheld in the Bible. Habakkuk's complaint to God was that the Jewish people were wicked beyond belief, whereupon God revealed His plan to judge Judah through Babylon, and in turn judge Babylon. So placing this all in context, even if this Psalm were talking only about the Babylonian invasion (which is the worst eisegesis I have ever heard) then you still prove that the indictment is levelled at Israel and Judah just as much as at the Babylonians, by placing it in context with Habakkuk and Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the other Prophets.


Yeah, that refers to you guys, not us. We are the servant.
You are right, and you are wrong. God does call His Servant "Israel", and yet there are passages of Isaiah that would be blasphemous to apply to any nation or man, and that could only be applied to God.

My intention in quoting this passage was not to begin a debate on who the Suffering Servant is, but to point out that the Prophet includes himself in the quote: all we like sheep have gone astray. Whether the Suffering Servant is the Jewish people (which some parts of the prophecy are about) or whether He is Jesus (which some parts of the prophecy are about) is immaterial. In verse six, by referring to himself as well as the people, Isaiah is clearly talking about himself and his countrymen, not himself and the gentiles.


That may be true, but your own death, or mine for that matter, is one way that we are forgiven.
By that argument sir, Hitler was forgiven on the day when he breakfasted on cyanide and blew his brains out. I do not find that a palatable theological position, or indeed one supported by scripture.

Fenris
Oct 29th 2007, 01:26 PM
I like context too. I know it was belief in God's promise. Does that speak of faith as salvatory, or the sum total of a person's actions?Abraham was a doer. A man of action. Draw your own conclusions.



Let us imagine that you are right. You are not right, for the indictment is levelled at "the children of man" - and the Jewish people are as much sons of Adam as the rest of us. But let us imagine that you are right, and that the Psalmist is talking of Babylon. Are you insinuating that the Jewish race is inherently sinless?No one said that the Jews are sinless. The point is, no one said that the Jews are without merits, either. The Jewish perspective is that one has good deeds in their favor and bad deeds that count against them. Like debits and credits in accounting. As long as the good outweighs the bad, you're doing OK (although of course one can always do better).



You are right, and you are wrong. God does call His Servant "Israel", and yet there are passages of Isaiah that would be blasphemous to apply to any nation or man, and that could only be applied to God.But not in chapter 53.


My intention in quoting this passage was not to begin a debate on who the Suffering Servant is, but to point out that the Prophet includes himself in the quote: all we like sheep have gone astray.The prophet is NOT speaking about himself. He is quoting the amazed nations from the end of chapter 52. THEY have gone astray.




By that argument sir, Hitler was forgiven on the day when he breakfasted on cyanide and blew his brains out. I do not find that a palatable theological position, or indeed one supported by scripture.I said death MAY act as an atonement for and individual. Obviously there are cases where it does not. Jeremiah said that 'every man dies for his own sin' and that is in fact true.

Bing
Oct 31st 2007, 04:11 AM
Abraham was a doer. A man of action. Draw your own conclusions.
You are fighting a losing battle on that one, friend. The text specifically ascribes Abraham's justification in righteousness to his belief in God's promise. His actions followed out of that belief, sure enough, but the point begins and ends with the fact that due to Abraham's belief - and nothing else - God considered him righteous.


No one said that the Jews are sinless. The point is, no one said that the Jews are without merits, either. The Jewish perspective is that one has good deeds in their favor and bad deeds that count against them. Like debits and credits in accounting. As long as the good outweighs the bad, you're doing OK (although of course one can always do better).
Fenris, both you and I believe that to strive after and pursue righteousness is not only commendable, but commanded by God. You told me that Psalm 14:3 was not talking about the Jews, which implied that the Jewish people are inherently sinless. I apologise if I misunderstood you.

Your position above, however, leads me to believe that you have fundamentally misunderstood about what the Prophets said. There is no account of goodness that can atone for any man's evil. One evil deed, unless atoned for by blood, will stand as an eternal indictment against all the weight of his "good" deeds. For as the Prophet said, "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags [literally, "menstrual rags"]; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

That is why no man may atone for either his brother's sin or even for his own sin, not by any deed or action. His wages will be the eternal death given to the wicked by God in His justice, unless atoned for by the blood of Jesus the Messiah.


But not in chapter 53.
That is irrelevant. The point is, the "Servant" cannot be solely Israel. Nor can the Servant be solely Jesus. But this debate does not serve our discussion.


The prophet is NOT speaking about himself. He is quoting the amazed nations from the end of chapter 52. THEY have gone astray.
You seem to be aware of a use of the word "WE" that I am unfamiliar with. Could you explain how a straightforward reading of the pertinent verse leads you to this outlandish conclusion?


I said death MAY act as an atonement for and individual. Obviously there are cases where it does not. Jeremiah said that 'every man dies for his own sin' and that is in fact true.
So then. First, you have decided that some sin is "badder" than other sin. Sin is sin is sin, my friend. What of King David, who committed murder, adultery and rape? How close did he come to falling into the category where his death would not atone for his sin?

What, to put it bluntly, is the difference between Hitler, King David, or you and I? I would like to see some biblical references for this.

Secondly, I believe you have read Jeremiah out of context. The condemnation is that the people will be judged (by Babylon) for the sins that they have committed, not that they will be pardoned by their deaths.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 12:07 PM
You are fighting a losing battle on that one, friend. The text specifically ascribes Abraham's justification in righteousness to his belief in God's promise. His actions followed out of that belief, sure enough, but the point begins and ends with the fact that due to Abraham's belief - and nothing else - God considered him righteous.
I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. The OT is packed full of actions that God expects of us- 613, to be exact, and belief is not one of them. Even in Abraham's case, which was before any of those rules were given, he was tested by God 10 times. It was his actions, not his beliefs, that caused him to pass those tests.

You're taking one single verse about Abraham trusting God to fulfill a promise, and giving it more weight than the thousands of other verses in the bible.


Fenris, both you and I believe that to strive after and pursue righteousness is not only commendable, but commanded by God. You told me that Psalm 14:3 was not talking about the Jews, which implied that the Jewish people are inherently sinless. I apologise if I misunderstood you.
Apology accepted. I should have been more clear in what I was saying.


Your position above, however, leads me to believe that you have fundamentally misunderstood about what the Prophets said. There is no account of goodness that can atone for any man's evil. One evil deed, unless atoned for by blood, will stand as an eternal indictment against all the weight of his "good" deeds.This is not a Jewish concept and it is not supported by our interpretation of scripture.


For as the Prophet said, "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags [literally, "menstrual rags"];
Again, the verse refers to a single generation, not all of mankind for all time. Since that was the generation that saw the destruction of the temple, obviously they were lacking in good deeds; since every generation does not deal with a tragedy of that magnitude, we are doing better than that generation.


That is why no man may atone for either his brother's sin or even for his own sin, not by any deed or action. Every man is responsible for his own sin.

His wages will be the eternal death given to the wicked by God in His justice, unless atoned for by the blood of Jesus the Messiah.
Again, this is not a Jewish concept and it is not supported by our interpretation of scripture.


That is irrelevant. The point is, the "Servant" cannot be solely Israel. We believe that it is.



You seem to be aware of a use of the word "WE" that I am unfamiliar with. Could you explain how a straightforward reading of the pertinent verse leads you to this outlandish conclusion?What we're disagreeing with here is the narrator of this verse. You say it is the Jews or perhaps everyone in the world. I say that following the end of chapter 52, it is either the gentile kings or all the nations of the world. I see nothing 'outlandish' about it; the fact that you even term the Jewish interpretation 'outlandish' tells me that it bothers you, for some reason. I won't speculate as to why that is.



So then. First, you have decided that some sin is "badder" than other sin. Sin is sin is sin, my friend. So mother Theresa and Hitler are equally bad, in God's eyes? The word 'outlandish' comes to mind.


What of King David, who committed murder, adultery and rape? How close did he come to falling into the category where his death would not atone for his sin?I don't know. At least he admitted guilt, in a time when kings did pretty much whatever they wanted.


What, to put it bluntly, is the difference between Hitler, King David, or you and I? I would like to see some biblical references for this.You know, if common sense doesn't tell you that someone who caused unimaginable human suffering is worse than you or I, nothing will. I have to be honest, this point here is one of the personal problems I have with Christianity. All the biblical and scriptural stuff aside, if a faith can't distinguish between someone who kills million of people and someone who tries to be a good person, I could never follow it.


Secondly, I believe you have read Jeremiah out of context. The condemnation is that the people will be judged (by Babylon) for the sins that they have committed, not that they will be pardoned by their deaths.A Christian talking to a Jew about context?

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 02:29 PM
Fenris,

So mother Theresa and Hitler are equally bad, in God's eyes? The word 'outlandish' comes to mind.God is no respecter of persons. Evil is evil whether done for a good cause or a wicked one. Sending men to hell for eternity is just as wicked as killing them in this life. Mother Theresa who claimed to know the way of salvation, kept this information from those dying Hindus she told to continue to pray to their idols and God would hear them. She had won the Templeton prize several years before her death and had not spent one penny of it to aid the suffering of those she professed to minister to. Because she falsely believed that suffering in this life would earn one merit in the next. So withholding both the message of eternal life and the means to help their suffering in this one - what ultimate good did she do?

For our good works to be good, they have to actually help someone prepare to meet their God. Telling them to pray to a false god instead of repent is about as wicked as you can get.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 02:38 PM
Fenris,

Again, the verse [Isa 64:6] refers to a single generation, not all of mankind for all time. Since that was the generation that saw the destruction of the temple, obviously they were lacking in good deeds; since every generation does not deal with a tragedy of that magnitude, we are doing better than that generation.Was it only a single generation?

(Isa 64:8-12 KJV) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. {9} Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people. {10} Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. {11} Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste. {12} Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?

That generation that had seen Solomon's temple destroyed, did live to see it rebuilt. It would seem things were better for them...

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 02:38 PM
Fenris,
God is no respecter of persons.
Not a Jewish concept and not supported by Jewish view of scripture. Also seems grossly, painfully unfair to me, but that's just a personal observation.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 02:39 PM
That generation that had seen Solomon's temple destroyed, did live to see it rebuilt. It would seem things were better for them...So does that mean that they were not evil? But I thought everyone was evil. Or did they only turn evil after the second temple was destroyed? :confused

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 03:05 PM
Fenris,
God is no respecter of persons. Evil is evil whether done for a good cause or a wicked one. Sending men to hell for eternity is just as wicked as killing them in this life. Mother Theresa who claimed to know the way of salvation, kept this information from those dying Hindus she told to continue to pray to their idols and God would hear them. She had won the Templeton prize several years before her death and had not spent one penny of it to aid the suffering of those she professed to minister to. Because she falsely believed that suffering in this life would earn one merit in the next. So withholding both the message of eternal life and the means to help their suffering in this one - what ultimate good did she do?

For our good works to be good, they have to actually help someone prepare to meet their God. Telling them to pray to a false god instead of repent is about as wicked as you can get.

Morgrace I can't believe you'd speak so ill of another Christian. I had to respond to this. Mother Theresa wasn't perfect. She never claimed to be an evangelist. All she ever wanted to do was help the suffering which she saw as Christ suffering, in the people she cared for. The Templeton prize money went to fund the Missionaries of Charity which she founded in Calcutta.

There were many people who thought they could do the work Mother Theresa did. But when they were actually faced with it in all its detail, they could not.


I feel the need to quote you some scripture. :cool:


Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.

Phl 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice.

Phl 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand.

Phl 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Phl 4:8 ¶ Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

Phl 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.


Also recall the parable of the Good Samaritan. There was no conversion, only comfort for suffering.:spin:

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:11 PM
Fenris,

All the biblical and scriptural stuff aside, if a faith can't distinguish between someone who kills million of people and someone who tries to be a good person, I could never follow it. But then you have to consider that one's "faith" is the all in all to determine one's relationship to God. Whereas it is God Himself who defines what faith in HIM must be. Faith must be in truth and not in a lie if it is to count in His eyes. IOW, Who God is, is the basis for true faith. All religions define good works pretty much the same, yet who they say God is, is vastly different. Faith in a lie will not sanctify the lie nor the worshipper who must stand before the Judge of the whole earth in his sins. Unless sin is dealt with, the condemnation upon mankind stands, they will not stand in His presence.

You seem to be hoping that God will grade on a curve and that one can earn His favor thru what he does. Yet grace is such that it cannot be earned and so man works in vain to accomplish what is not within his power to achieve.

What works did Adam do that caused God to give him a covering for his guilt and shame? As both he and Eve stood before God and blamed one another and the serpent? What God did was give them hope, which was something they must believe and trust in Him to accomplish. That is the basis for faith which can then work acceptably and be found pleasing to God.

Abraham's testing was not for the rightness of his actions but to work in him faith and hope in the One who could save him. He trusted that God could raise the dead if necessary in order to keep His promise. That was what was accounted to him for righteousness - his faith in the promise of God for eternal life.

It is sin that has incurred a debt we cannot pay with our own life, therefore we are dependent upon the grace and mercy of God to forgive us. Your idea that the suffering Servant in Ps 53 is Israel supposes that the blood of Israel can atone for the sins of the world. For that to be true, their sins must first be atoned for. How can that be true when they have been without a blood atonement all these years? Where is the blood of the lamb that will cause God to pass over them when judgment comes upon the Gentiles?

This is not the hope God gave to Abraham which someday the Gentiles would understand. No, his hope was in the same Deliverer in which Adam hoped in to provide the sacrifice to take away the sin of the world. The suffering Servant can only be Messiah, which is why Ps 53 personifies him as one man - one faithful Son whom God would bring into the world thru Israel - the Holy One of Israel.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:11 PM
Mother Theresa who claimed to know the way of salvation, kept this information from those dying Hindus she told to continue to pray to their idols and God would hear them..... So withholding both the message of eternal life and the means to help their suffering in this one - what ultimate good did she do?...

For our good works to be good, they have to actually help someone prepare to meet their God.

Since you seem to feel that human suffering is irrelevant and all that matters is getting one to accept Jesus, I am wondering if you feel it would be justified to torture people until they accept Jesus? if your intentions were noble, wouldn't it be a Godly act?

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:16 PM
You seem to be hoping that God will grade on a curve and that one can earn His favor thru what he does. I am not 'hoping' it. It is the Jewish perspective.


That was what was accounted to him for righteousness - his faith in the promise of God for eternal life.
My bible doesn't have God making that promise to him. Maybe it's in oe of those books in the back...?


It is sin that has incurred a debt we cannot pay with our own life, therefore we are dependent upon the grace and mercy of God to forgive us.Not supported by Jewish scripture.


Your idea that the suffering Servant in Ps 53 is Israel supposes that the blood of Israel can atone for the sins of the world. Not blood. Suffering atones.


For that to be true, their sins must first be atoned for. How can that be true when they have been without a blood atonement all these years? One can atone without blood. The bible plainly says so.


The suffering Servant can only be Messiah, which is why Ps 53 personifies him as one man - one faithful Son whom God would bring into the world thru Israel - the Holy One of Israel.That is a statement of faith, not fact. For the Jewish reading of the chapter makes just as much sense as yours.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:20 PM
Not a Jewish concept and not supported by Jewish view of scripture. Also seems grossly, painfully unfair to me, but that's just a personal observation.Here are 3 witnesses that say otherwise:

(Psa 95:10-11 KJV) Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: {11} Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

(Isa 55:8-9 KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. {9} For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

(Ezek 18:26-30 KJV) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. {27} Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. {28} Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

{29} Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? {30} Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Sin is the issue.

(Isa 43:18-21 KJV) Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. {19} Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. {20} The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. {21} This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.

Messiah was always the way of God by which Israel was given hope.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:23 PM
So does that mean that they were not evil? But I thought everyone was evil. Or did they only turn evil after the second temple was destroyed? :confusedThe comment you made was that Isaiah's words about sin only applied to that generation. My point was that is not the case if you consider what the signs of restoration were to be.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:27 PM
Here are 3 witnesses that say otherwise:

(Psa 95:10-11 KJV) Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: {11} Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.Which generation wandered the desert 40 years?


(Isa 55:8-9 KJV) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. {9} For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.And yet, for all that, God seems most concerned with our ethical behavior. He tells us to pursue justice through just means.


(Ezek 18:26-30 KJV) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. {27} Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. {28} Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.This only proves my point that God is concerned with what we do.


{29} Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? {30} Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.Sounds like a sliding scale to me.



(Isa 43:18-21 KJV) Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. {19} Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. {20} The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. {21} This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise.And we do, in prayers, every single day.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:28 PM
The comment you made was that Isaiah's words about sin only applied to that generation. My point was that is not the case if you consider what the signs of restoration were to be.If we were as bad as that generation, millions of us should be killed in every generation. So obviously we are not as bad as they. On the other hand, we have not been good enough to merit the temple's rebuilding either. Yet. So we still have work to do.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:32 PM
I am not 'hoping' it. It is the Jewish perspective.
My bible doesn't have God making that promise to him. Maybe it's in oe of those books in the back...?
...
Not supported by Jewish scripture.
...
Not blood. Suffering atones.
One can atone without blood. The bible plainly says so.
...
That is a statement of faith, not fact. For the Jewish reading of the chapter makes just as much sense as yours.Lets take a look:

(Isa 53:6-12 KJV) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
{7} He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
{8} He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
{9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
{10} Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
{11} He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
{12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This is the language of sacrifice not only suffering.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:39 PM
If we were as bad as that generation, millions of us should be killed in every generation. So obviously we are not as bad as they. On the other hand, we have not been good enough to merit the temple's rebuilding either. Yet. So we still have work to do.Yet that is not the only conclusion that can be drawn. If God were still working in Israel, then the sign of His presence would be there.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 03:42 PM
Teke,

Phl 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life.Laboring with those under a false gospel would seem to negate this command.

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 03:51 PM
Not blood. Suffering atones.
One can atone without blood. The bible plainly says so.


Good luck with this in westernized Christianity.
Easterners have been telling them this from the beginning.

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 03:53 PM
Teke,
Laboring with those under a false gospel would seem to negate this command.

What in the world do you mean?

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:56 PM
Lets take a look:

{7} He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,Jews being murdered during the Holocaust were described using EXACTLY that term. INteresting, huh?


{8} He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.Israel is also called 'the land of life', and the concept here is that the Jews accepted exile as the price to be paid so that the world would continue to exist. Because if God destroyed the Jews (as we did, indeed, deserve) then the world would cease to exist.


{9} And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.Did the Jews really deserve the shabby treatment that we got from the nations?


{10} Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: if his soul makes restitution, then he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.Yes, God bruises us, to bring us to repentance.I changed the verses to more accurately reflect the Hebrew here.



{12} Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.Yes, we do make intercession with God for the countries in which we live, even if we are poorly treated therein.


This is the language of sacrifice not only suffering.
Suffering IS sacrifice.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 03:59 PM
Yet that is not the only conclusion that can be drawn. If God were still working in Israel, then the sign of His presence would be there.Is the existence of the modern-day state of Israel not a miracle? How about that fact that we even still exist, after 20 centuries without a homeland? Or the fact that some 33% of all Nobel prizes ever awarded have gone to Jews? There's only 13 million of us, give or take, and yet we make such noise. Accident? Coincidence? Or God's will? You tell me.

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 04:51 PM
Fenris,

Suffering IS sacrifice.In one sense only. In the language being used, death is the required sacrifice.

If Israel's suffering is to bring atonement for the sins of the world, then why was the blood of a lamb required to atone for their sins so judgment could pass over them? Israel must be sanctified (without blemish) if their sacrificial suffering is to be acceptable as an atonement for the sins of the world. That was what the blood of bulls and goats was intended to do all those years that kept Israel consecrated before the Lord. What blood is covering them now? If Israel's sins have not been atoned for, then she is hardly in a position to intercede on behalf of the rest of the world, let alone have her sufferings atone for their sins.

Since the high priest was first to sacrifice for his own sins before he could make sacrifice for the people. Something has changed therefore in how this was to be accomplished. Millions have died since 70 AD - who atoned for them? It can't be Israel who doesn't even have a red heifer to help herself.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 05:00 PM
Fenris,
In one sense only. In the language being used, death is the required sacrifice. Not from my perspective.


If Israel's suffering is to bring atonement for the sins of the world, then why was the blood of a lamb required to atone for their sins so judgment could pass over them?The lambs blood was a sign, not an atonement.


Israel must be sanctified (without blemish) if their sacrificial suffering is to be acceptable as an atonement for the sins of the world.Why? Even Jesus was not sacrificed without blemish.


That was what the blood of bulls and goats was intended to do all those years that kept Israel consecrated before the Lord. What blood is covering them now?Blood doesn't 'cover' sin. Sacrifice was only one part of the atonement process, and since we still have the other parts we do them.


If Israel's sins have not been atoned for, then she is hardly in a position to intercede on behalf of the rest of the world, let alone have her sufferings atone for their sins. Why? If that is our role, then that is what we must do.


Since the high priest was first to sacrifice for his own sins before he could make sacrifice for the people. On Yom Kippur, maybe. What about the sacrifices brought all year long? Did every priest have to do his own sacrifice before he could do one for someone else?


Something has changed therefore in how this was to be accomplished.Now we do everything but the sacrifice.


Millions have died since 70 AD - who atoned for them?Perhaps their death atoned for them.

It can't be Israel who doesn't even have a red heifer to help herself.The red heifer removed ritual impurity from a corpse, not sin.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 05:02 PM
Bump for Mograce2U

Since you seem to feel that human suffering is irrelevant and all that matters is getting one to accept Jesus, I am wondering if you feel it would be justified to torture people until they accept Jesus? if your intentions were noble, wouldn't it be a Godly act?

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 06:01 PM
Bump for Mograce2UDid you think your bump would trip me up?

Sin is the reason there is suffering and disease and death in the world. Therefore it is sin that must be dealt with if one is to live in God's presence for eternity. Good works cannot do that. Only the grace and mercy of God can turn away sin so that we may be forgiven. And the way He has shown us, is that a penalty we cannot endure must be paid.

Your grasp of scripture seems man-centered and earth-bound to me. You have made God dependent upon Israel for the salvation of mankind, when it is God Himself who must provide the Lamb which will take away the sin of the world. Which He did by bringing forth a faithful Son from Israel.

Yet Israel today does not know her Redeemer lives. And has changed the hope of Abraham into a lie. You can't really expect to call God a liar and think He will save you even though you refuse to repent, now can you?

Well perhaps you can, but it will not be true.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 06:08 PM
Did you think your bump would trip me up?You didn't answer my question.


Sin is the reason there is suffering and disease and death in the world. Therefore it is sin that must be dealt with if one is to live in God's presence for eternity. Good works cannot do that. Only the grace and mercy of God can turn away sin so that we may be forgiven. And the way He has shown us, is that a penalty we cannot endure must be paid. So basically, free will is a curse and man is incapable of doing good under any circumstances. Not only is it a gloomy, depressing outlook, but it makes God into a sadistic monster.


Your grasp of scripture seems man-centered and earth-bound to me. Of course it is. That is why God gave it to us.


You have made God dependent upon Israel for the salvation of mankind, No. Every individual is responsible for their own fate in the hereafter. On this world, it is not God but man who is dependent upon Israel for the messianic age. We were the first to bring God's word to the nations, and in time we will be vindicated. Zecharia 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'

Mograce2U
Oct 31st 2007, 06:22 PM
You didn't answer my question.
So basically, free will is a curse and man is incapable of doing good under any circumstances. Not only is it a gloomy, depressing outlook, but it makes God into a sadistic monster.

Of course it is. That is why God gave it to us.
No. Every individual is responsible for their own fate in the hereafter. On this world, it is not God but man who is dependent upon Israel for the messianic age. We were the first to bring God's word to the nations, and in time we will be vindicated. Zecharia 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'Ten men implies a synagogue comprised of all nations. Abraham was to be a father of many nations. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy by healing even those who touched his robes. Why? because they heard that God the Father was with Him. He was the one who brought God's word to the nations - and He was upon the earth as a Jew. Israel has not done this - since they do not proseltyze. Christians on the other hand do this in the Name that is above all names.

Man is incapable of doing any good (ie. of eternal value) by his own freewill, because he is tainted with self-serving sin. But when that will is governed by God, then his works are acceptable. Sin brings all men under the condemnation so that God might have mercy upon all. Those who refuse to come in the way He has set forth however, have no excuse.

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 06:33 PM
Fenris are you saying the salvation of the world depends on Israel?
So no one need really worry about it since the Jews have it all taken care of for us.:hmm:

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 07:04 PM
Fenris are you saying the salvation of the world depends on Israel?
So no one need really worry about it since the Jews have it all taken care of for us.:hmm:Salvation means a different thing to us than to you. Only Jewish actions can bring the messiah. The messiah will usher in an era of global peace and knowledge of God.

Whether one goes to heaven or hell depends on their actions, not God, not the messiah.

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 07:05 PM
Ten men implies...
Once again you address nothing in my post.

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 07:39 PM
Salvation means a different thing to us than to you.

Then please tell us what salvation means to you.


Only Jewish actions can bring the messiah.

What actions would those be?

Fenris
Oct 31st 2007, 07:44 PM
Then please tell us what salvation means to you.
I did. The messiah will usher in an era of global peace and knowledge of God.


What actions would those be?
Repentance and returning to God.

Don't start talking about Jesus, 90% of Jews don't follow Judaism either. If 90% did and the messiah still hadn't come, I'd be open to suggestions...:lol:

Teke
Oct 31st 2007, 10:08 PM
I did. The messiah will usher in an era of global peace and knowledge of God.

Repentance and returning to God.

Don't start talking about Jesus, 90% of Jews don't follow Judaism either. If 90% did and the messiah still hadn't come, I'd be open to suggestions...:lol:

OK, so you believe when all Jews repent and return to God, then Messiah will come with global peace and knowledge of God.

It all depends on the Jews......:confused

Mograce2U
Nov 1st 2007, 01:49 AM
Once again you address nothing in my post.Sure I did in the 2nd paragraph. You read too fast...

You wanted to know if I thought man was incapable of doing any good under any circumstances. And here is what I said about what the circumstances are in which he could.


#106 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1426743&postcount=106)
Man is incapable of doing any good (ie. of eternal value) by his own freewill, because he is tainted with self-serving sin. But when that will is governed by God, then his works are acceptable. Sin brings all men under the condemnation so that God might have mercy upon all. Those who refuse to come in the way He has set forth however, have no excuse.
Apart from God working in the man, the man can do nothing that will please Him. What pleases God is the thing that He does! That is what a relationship is. You are the one who has an odd view of God as though this is not His desire for us - and instead we must work, work, work in our own strength til He relents to forgive us.

Bing
Nov 1st 2007, 06:34 AM
I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way. The OT is packed full of actions that God expects of us- 613, to be exact, and belief is not one of them. Even in Abraham's case, which was before any of those rules were given, he was tested by God 10 times. It was his actions, not his beliefs, that caused him to pass those tests. You're taking one single verse about Abraham trusting God to fulfill a promise, and giving it more weight than the thousands of other verses in the bible.
Whereas you're placidly ignoring that same verse, a verse upon which the entire Old Testament prophetic ministry and the entire Law was built upon. Without the hope of God's promise, there would be no Israel and there would be no covenant between God and your people.


This is not a Jewish concept and it is not supported by our interpretation of scripture.
Again, the verse refers to a single generation, not all of mankind for all time. Since that was the generation that saw the destruction of the temple, obviously they were lacking in good deeds; since every generation does not deal with a tragedy of that magnitude, we are doing better than that generation.
Mate, you can say "This is not a Jewish concept" until you are blue in the face, but it seems a frightfully convenient way of saying "I don't have an answer for this verse that you have brought up." Likewise, most of the (Old Testament) verses that the kind people here have pointed out to you, you have squirreled out of by shrugging your shoulders and claiming that they were exclusively aimed at "another generation."

Tell me, this God that you profess to serve who never changes, what relevance does His Word have for you if it is addressed to a bunch of your sinful ancestors?


What we're disagreeing with here is the narrator of this verse. You say it is the Jews or perhaps everyone in the world. I say that following the end of chapter 52, it is either the gentile kings or all the nations of the world. I see nothing 'outlandish' about it; the fact that you even term the Jewish interpretation 'outlandish' tells me that it bothers you, for some reason. I won't speculate as to why that is.
Your speculation aside, when Isaiah uses personal pronouns I tend to assume that he is including himself and his associates in the relevant statement. Therefore when Isaiah says "we" he is talking about himself and his people. When he addresses a third party (for instance in Isaiah 23) I do not assume the judgements described are aimed at Israel. This is standard hermaneutics.


So mother Theresa and Hitler are equally bad, in God's eyes? The word 'outlandish' comes to mind.
The alternative is that Mother Theresa's righteousness is the same as God's righteousness. This makes her equal to God. That is blasphemy.

Mother Theresa is either God or she is not. There is no half ground. She cannot be "mostly okay except for that one time in 1931". One is either righteous or unrighteous. God is righteous. God is eternal. God is merciful. God is gracious. God is slow to anger. God is abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

We are not.

One either follows the Law and the Prophets perfectly, without a single error or omission, or one does not. And contrary to your impending rebuttal, this is a Jewish perspective, not a Greco-western perspective.


You know, if common sense doesn't tell you that someone who caused unimaginable human suffering is worse than you or I, nothing will. I have to be honest, this point here is one of the personal problems I have with Christianity. All the biblical and scriptural stuff aside, if a faith can't distinguish between someone who kills million of people and someone who tries to be a good person, I could never follow it.
I think you are deliberately sidestepping the issue. Of course Hitler committed innumerably worse deeds than you or I. But what do you and I have in common with Hitler? We have sinned. That places us in one category and God in another.


A Christian talking to a Jew about context?
Is that your answer to the question?

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 12:15 PM
OK, so you believe when all Jews repent and return to God, then Messiah will come with global peace and knowledge of God.

It all depends on the Jews......:confusedApparently so, according to the bible.

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 12:16 PM
Sure I did in the 2nd paragraph. You read too fast...

Your making a theological point that is not, from my view, supported by scripture.

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 12:29 PM
Whereas you're placidly ignoring that same verse, a verse upon which the entire Old Testament prophetic ministry and the entire Law was built upon. Without the hope of God's promise, there would be no Israel and there would be no covenant between God and your people.
I'm not placidly ignoring anything. God made a promise to Abraham, and Abraham believed him. That does not, in my view, mean that faith supersedes action.


Mate, you can say "This is not a Jewish concept" until you are blue in the face, but it seems a frightfully convenient way of saying "I don't have an answer for this verse that you have brought up." Likewise, most of the (Old Testament) verses that the kind people here have pointed out to you, you have squirreled out of by shrugging your shoulders and claiming that they were exclusively aimed at "another generation."Because context counts. You can't isolate a verse from the chapter surrounding it and ascribe a meaning to it that would not fit if it was read with the surrounding verses. But that's what you did. (As an aside, I've never been called 'mate' before. It's different. :lol:)


Tell me, this God that you profess to serve who never changes, what relevance does His Word have for you if it is addressed to a bunch of your sinful ancestors?Well, a couple of things. First of all, God did not JUST speak to all generations; some messages given by prophets were aimed primarily at the generation to whom it was addressed. This is one such case. But if we ascribe a more 'universal' theme to the prophecy, we could say that we must learn from their mistakes. Obviously.



Your speculation aside, when Isaiah uses personal pronouns I tend to assume that he is including himself and his associates in the relevant statement. Therefore when Isaiah says "we" he is talking about himself and his people. When he addresses a third party (for instance in Isaiah 23) I do not assume the judgements described are aimed at Israel. This is standard hermaneutics.How can Isaiah be referring to himself? The prophecy is speaking of a future event and if it means what you said Jesus lived long after Isaiah. Or, it could be as I say, that the prophet is paraphrasing the kings and nations of the world, as they look back upon history...



The alternative is that Mother Theresa's righteousness is the same as God's righteousness. This makes her equal to God. That is blasphemy.No, we could say that she was an instrument of God for doing good in the world. God wanted the hungry fed and the poor clothed, and she did it. She was God's partner in good deeds. How awesome is that?!!


Mother Theresa is either God or she is not. There is no half ground. She cannot be "mostly okay except for that one time in 1931". One is either righteous or unrighteous. God is righteous. God is eternal. God is merciful. God is gracious. God is slow to anger. God is abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

We are not.Right, but what makes you think that God expects perfection from us puny mortals? If I take a test and score a 90%, I didn't score perfectly but I didn't fail either; you're saying since I can't score a 100 I should bother to take the test.


One either follows the Law and the Prophets perfectly, without a single error or omission, or one does not. And contrary to your impending rebuttal, this is a Jewish perspective, not a Greco-western perspective.No one ever followed them perfectly. But so what?



I think you are deliberately sidestepping the issue. Of course Hitler committed innumerably worse deeds than you or I. But what do you and I have in common with Hitler? We have sinned. That places us in one category and God in another.So God is capable of anything except distinguishing between small sins and big ones? If I don't take out the garbage my wife gets angry at me; Were I to ever cheat on her, God forbid, she would be much angrier. Is my wife more capable of differentiating between transgressions than God?



Is that your answer to the question?I was being flip.

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 01:00 PM
It all depends on the Jews......:confused
Think of it like this: It's like a football game. Every play revolves around the Quarterback. Does that mean he's the only important player? Of course not. Without an offensive line, a running back, a halfback, and some receivers, he can't take the field. It's a team effort. We just have a role distinct from that of the other nations. Not better, just different.

Teke
Nov 1st 2007, 06:58 PM
Think of it like this: It's like a football game. Every play revolves around the Quarterback. Does that mean he's the only important player? Of course not. Without an offensive line, a running back, a halfback, and some receivers, he can't take the field. It's a team effort. We just have a role distinct from that of the other nations. Not better, just different.

I agree we all have a part.
But your comments like the one about, if it weren't for Jews the world wouldn't exist, just baffle me. That sort of comment tends to make one think that the Jews believe the world was created for them alone. As does such comments as, the Jews will judge the nations.

I was under the impression that God took a people, the Hebrews, who were not a people and made them an outstanding nation to bring the Messiah through (Deut. 7:6-8), Ezek. 16:4,5). Which is how I view the promise to Abraham.

The eternal promise in Genesis after the flood is for all of mankind and not only the Jews or Israel.

To me there is a difference. The promise of Messiah is not an eternal promise but one that is fulfilled in time. That being that He will come from Israel (be Jewish) and will reveal Himself first to Israel then the rest of the world, which to us Christians has been fulfilled.

I guess the Jewish view of the Messiahs coming is what Christians would call the 'restoration'. For us it is ongoing. As within that time period all are working out their salvation with God.

So perhaps the Jewish view is what keeps them from seeing the Messiah, as they believe they will only see Him when they are all believing in or looking for Him. I suppose the way to take that is, if one isn't ready then they aren't ready.
Christians continue the work which Christ began, which is calling people to get ready.

Really I sympathize with you and your people. As I've spoken with Jews who have returned to Israel and yet say they do not believe in God or that He has abandoned them. Which to me is quite startling.

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 08:17 PM
I agree we all have a part.
But your comments like the one about, if it weren't for Jews the world wouldn't exist, just baffle me. That sort of comment tends to make one think that the Jews believe the world was created for them alone. No, the world was created for people to do the commandments. Who does the commandments?


I was under the impression that God took a people, the Hebrews, who were not a people and made them an outstanding nation to bring the Messiah through (Deut. 7:6-8), Ezek. 16:4,5). Which is how I view the promise to Abraham. Well, that is the Christian perspective.


The eternal promise in Genesis after the flood is for all of mankind and not only the Jews or Israel. True.


To me there is a difference. The promise of Messiah is not an eternal promise but one that is fulfilled in time. That being that He will come from Israel (be Jewish) and will reveal Himself first to Israel then the rest of the world, which to us Christians has been fulfilled. So the Jews have served their purpose, then? They created the messiah and are now done on the stage of the world?


So perhaps the Jewish view is what keeps them from seeing the Messiah, as they believe they will only see Him when they are all believing in or looking for Him. I suppose the way to take that is, if one isn't ready then they aren't ready.
No, we're still waiting for the promises God made to be fulfilled. In an actual, literal sense, not a spiritual, metaphoric one.


Christians continue the work which Christ began, which is calling people to get ready.Jews continue our job of perfecting the world.


Really I sympathize with you and your people. As I've spoken with Jews who have returned to Israel and yet say they do not believe in God or that He has abandoned them. Which to me is quite startling.
Well, most Jews in the world fit into that category.

Teke
Nov 1st 2007, 09:12 PM
No, the world was created for people to do the commandments. Who does the commandments?

If you mean in a religious sense, I'd say those who are religious do the best they can. I'm sure as well there are those who do some of them without knowing they are also.
And really, from an eastern perspective, aren't they more like prescriptions for well being. :)



Well, that is the Christian perspective.

Isn't it also a historical perspective.
It is quite a miraculous tale.



So the Jews have served their purpose, then? They created the messiah and are now done on the stage of the world?

Obviously God is not done yet. Since they still need to believe in Him again.


No, we're still waiting for the promises God made to be fulfilled. In an actual, literal sense, not a spiritual, metaphoric one.

You mean in the manner your religion interprets it.
I pray you all don't wind up like the rapture bunch who look for an antichrist and seven yr trib.:(


Jews continue our job of perfecting the world.

I don't know about perfecting the world.
I'd settle for everyone getting along in some manner (its possible). Peace


Well, most Jews in the world fit into that category.

Then more prepared workers best come into the field and call them to worship.:saint:

Fenris
Nov 1st 2007, 09:18 PM
If you mean in a religious sense, I'd say those who are religious do the best they can. I'm sure as well there are those who do some of them without knowing they are also. Only because there are Jews in the world are all of the commandments (as they apply) done.



Isn't it also a historical perspective.
It is quite a miraculous tale.Yes, but that isn't the end of it.




Obviously God is not done yet. Since they still need to believe in Him again.Why does God need anyone to believe in Him? I think this is a puzzle that the church has been trying to deal with for a long time: The Jews served their purpose, why are they still here?



You mean in the manner your religion interprets it.No, I mean the way any person who read it would interpret it literally. World peace means world peace. Temple rebuilt means temple rebuilt.




I don't know about perfecting the world.
I'd settle for everyone getting along in some manner (its possible). Well, we are trying to do more than just that.

Teke
Nov 1st 2007, 10:01 PM
Only because there are Jews in the world are all of the commandments (as they apply) done.

As prescribed.


Yes, but that isn't the end of it.

I'm sure it isn't for any people.


Why does God need anyone to believe in Him?

I don't suppose He does, but people do. I never saw any reason until He gave me one.


I think this is a puzzle that the church has been trying to deal with for a long time: The Jews served their purpose, why are they still here?

There still here to fight western beliefs of God with eastern.:lol:
Seriously, they are just people like the rest of us, here to participate with God.


No, I mean the way any person who read it would interpret it literally. World peace means world peace.

If world peace means that everyone agrees at the same time, I have my doubts.


Temple rebuilt means temple rebuilt.

I don't recall God calling for a temple to be built to begin with. Just a tent for the arc. How much would a temple mean without it.:hmm:
Or is it a sign sort of thing.



Well, we are trying to do more than just that.

Like what for instance.

Fenris
Nov 2nd 2007, 09:45 AM
As prescribed.Of course. Because we believe that we are right. Doesn't every religion?!



I'm sure it isn't for any people.Yes, because every people has their role to fill.



There still here to fight western beliefs of God with eastern.:lol:
Seriously, they are just people like the rest of us, here to participate with God.None of which explains Jewish prominence in the world.



If world peace means that everyone agrees at the same time, I have my doubts.Well, you won't, one day.



I don't recall God calling for a temple to be built to begin with. Just a tent for the arc. How much would a temple mean without it.:hmm:
Or is it a sign sort of thing.If God says He will do some thing, He will do it. Not in some metaphorical sense, but in an actual, literal one.




Like what for instance.

God created the world imperfect, on purpose. Then He gave us this wonderful book that tells us what He expects us to do. In this manner, we are given the opportunity to become God's partner in creation.

Teke
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:32 PM
Of course. Because we believe that we are right. Doesn't every religion?!

Theoretic unions exist so people will believe they are right in their thinking and actions within that collective. So yes, everyone believes they are "right".


None of which explains Jewish prominence in the world.

I would venture to say that most Americans are tired of ethnic battles of prominence. They just breed vain glory, pride, covetousness etc.
Jews can take their place among all the other ethnic sectarians proclaiming their prominence.



If God says He will do some thing, He will do it. Not in some metaphorical sense, but in an actual, literal one.

That's not really an answer to my query.



God created the world imperfect, on purpose.

Strange, I was of the impression He created it "good" and with everything we need.



Then He gave us this wonderful book that tells us what He expects us to do. In this manner, we are given the opportunity to become God's partner in creation.

I don't believe we need a book to be God's partner in creation. But I understand the structured authority concept being related in that. And I respect the freedom of individuals as long as they respect the freedom of others in like manner.
I believe a conciliar approach is best among the diverse people of the world. As no single one is absolute.

Fenris
Nov 2nd 2007, 04:59 PM
I would venture to say that most Americans are tired of ethnic battles of prominence. They just breed vain glory, pride, covetousness etc.
Jews can take their place among all the other ethnic sectarians proclaiming their prominence.Jews represent about 2/10 of a percent of the world's population, and yet they have won about 33% of all Nobel prizes. It isn't an accident and it isn't vanity; God wills it, for some reason.



That's not really an answer to my query.Of course it is. If there is a prophecy that God will do something, and we can't even agree on whether it happened or not, can it really be claimed to have been fulfilled?




Strange, I was of the impression He created it "good" and with everything we need.
Really? You don't work for a living? You don't deal with daily struggles? Evil does not happen?



I don't believe we need a book to be God's partner in creation. But I understand the structured authority concept being related in that. And I respect the freedom of individuals as long as they respect the freedom of others in like manner.
I believe a conciliar approach is best among the diverse people of the world. As no single one is absolute.So one doesn't have to accept Christ to go to heaven?

Mograce2U
Nov 2nd 2007, 05:51 PM
Fenris,
Now that's a good one:

Of course it is. If there is a prophecy that God will do something, and we can't even agree on whether it happened or not, can it really be claimed to have been fulfilled?You mean like saying that there is going to be an earthquake on Monday and when it comes, because we say "Oh that wasn't it", then it wasn't fulfilled? :P

Teke
Nov 2nd 2007, 05:52 PM
Jews represent about 2/10 of a percent of the world's population, and yet they have won about 33% of all Nobel prizes. It isn't an accident and it isn't vanity; God wills it, for some reason.

Oh really, the Noble prize is God's will.
Mark Twain wrote, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."



Of course it is. If there is a prophecy that God will do something, and we can't even agree on whether it happened or not, can it really be claimed to have been fulfilled?

What prophecy are you speaking of. Was there a prophecy of the Jews that God would rebuild the temple after the 70 AD destruction? I never heard it.

And no you didn't answer the question of why the need for a temple without the arc. Is the temple also a "prize" to the Jews.



Really? You don't work for a living? You don't deal with daily struggles? Evil does not happen?

Does all that mean creation isn't "good"? Is this why you believe the world is "imperfect" and needs the perfection of Jews. I find that odd.


So one doesn't have to accept Christ to go to heaven?

I am not the judge of who goes to heaven. Acceptance depends on the receiver.

Really I have no clue why God calls some peoples attention to Christ and not others. I do know it's not as easy a place to be as some make out. I was quite content before with no religion and a belief in God as my Creator.
Those who have been called continually ponder the question of why they were called along with the question of Christ and what that means. As even Jesus asked His disciples, "who do men say that I am". Perhaps the answer lies in the experience of that collective.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 11:50 AM
Fenris,
Now that's a good one:
You mean like saying that there is going to be an earthquake on Monday and when it comes, because we say "Oh that wasn't it", then it wasn't fulfilled? :PNo, it's like predicting an earthquake and instead there's a meteor shower. God promised us world peace. God promised us a rebuilt temple. God promised us an ingathering of the exiles. These things have not happened.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 11:55 AM
Oh really, the Noble prize is God's will.
Mark Twain wrote, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."So you don't find Jews to be especially prominent in the world today?




What prophecy are you speaking of. Was there a prophecy of the Jews that God would rebuild the temple after the 70 AD destruction? I never heard it.
Rebuilt temple, world peace, exiles returned to Israel...it all there, in the bible.




Does all that mean creation isn't "good"? Is this why you believe the world is "imperfect" and needs the perfection of Jews. I find that odd.Of course it's good, but it isn't complete.



I am not the judge of who goes to heaven. Acceptance depends on the receiver. I knew you would say this, and it's a cop-out answer. It's Christian doctrine that no one goes to heaven without belief in Jesus. But when I point out that Christianity is more exclusive than Judaism in this regard, the answer is always "We don't know who goes to heaven".

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 03:41 PM
Hey Teke, if you like Mark Twain's quotes here's another one for you:

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

Mark Twain

The secret, of course, is that it's God's will. We'll obviously disagree on why.

Mograce2U
Nov 4th 2007, 04:57 PM
Hey Teke, if you like Mark Twain's quotes here's another one for you:
...
The secret, of course, is that it's God's will. We'll obviously disagree on why.
(Num 23:19-20 KJV) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? {20} Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

(Rom 11:29 KJV) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This was the people whom God chose to bring Messiah into the world so that Abraham's Seed could bless many nations. And to them were committed the oracles of God. Israel today brings earthly benefit to the world that is perishing. Which as wonderful as that is, falls far short of what the world needs, which is a Savior.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 05:52 PM
(Num 23:19-20 KJV) God is not a man
You don't see the irony of quoting this verse?

Mograce2U
Nov 4th 2007, 06:18 PM
You don't see the irony of quoting this verse?Yes I do and was not afraid to use it to point out that our help in this life is not from Israel, but from her Seed - the only begotten Son of the Father. Because God is the Creator of man, does not make God like us, but us like Him. Something of our substance was designed so that God could indwell us by His Spirit. God did not make beasts or trees for this purpose. So for the Father to indwell the body He created for His Son is not as far-fetched as you think. Jesus in heaven is not like we are now either, yet this gives us hope that we will be like Him. Which still won't make us God. The triune nature of the one God-head is a mystery, yet the plurality of God is revealed to us when we are introduced to Elohiym in plural form right in Gen 1:1.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 06:28 PM
Yes I do and was not afraid to use it to point out that our help in this life is not from Israel

Your help is not From Israel in my opinion either. Your help comes from your own free will. But still, the verse you cited really means "God is not a man, except when He is..." according to you.


yet the plurality of God is revealed to us when we are introduced to Elohiym in plural form right in Gen 1:1.
The word is not plural. Plenty of singular nouns have the same form.

Teke
Nov 4th 2007, 07:38 PM
I knew you would say this, and it's a cop-out answer. It's Christian doctrine that no one goes to heaven without belief in Jesus. But when I point out that Christianity is more exclusive than Judaism in this regard, the answer is always "We don't know who goes to heaven".

No cop out and some things you may believe is Christian "doctrine" is not.
Here is the statement of faith (creed). Does it say who goes to heaven?


We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 07:40 PM
No cop out and some things you may believe is Christian "doctrine" is not.
Here is the statement of faith (creed). Does it say who goes to heaven?


Go fight it out with the Christians who tell me otherwise.

Teke
Nov 4th 2007, 07:44 PM
Hey Teke, if you like Mark Twain's quotes here's another one for you:


The secret, of course, is that it's God's will. We'll obviously disagree on why.

Yes Twain did a nice quote on the Jews after leaving them out of his original one of religions.;)

I don't know that we disagree on why. If the Jews want the world, or some prominence, then great for them. It is of no concern to me. What does that matter one way or the other.

Teke
Nov 4th 2007, 07:50 PM
Go fight it out with the Christians who tell me otherwise.

Let them fight it out.:P

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 07:50 PM
I don't know that we disagree on why. If the Jews want the world, or some prominence, then great for them. It is of no concern to me. What does that matter one way or the other.I don't understand. Are you saying that things happen in this world outside of God's wishes? Maybe I was taught wrong, but I was always told that God was all-powerful. That would mean that everything that happens is His will.

You seem to believe that these things just happen and have no significance.

Teke
Nov 4th 2007, 08:05 PM
I don't understand. Are you saying that things happen in this world outside of God's wishes? Maybe I was taught wrong, but I was always told that God was all-powerful. That would mean that everything that happens is His will.

You seem to believe that these things just happen and have no significance.

I believe everyone does what they want to do. God makes the most of it.

Whether things are significant depends on factors associated with it.

Fenris
Nov 4th 2007, 08:10 PM
OK so God isn't all-powerful. Check.

Mograce2U
Nov 4th 2007, 08:40 PM
Your help is not From Israel in my opinion either. Your help comes from your own free will. But still, the verse you cited really means "God is not a man, except when He is..." according to you.

The word is not plural. Plenty of singular nouns have the same form.
That is because the singular is contained in the plural but not vice versa.

The verse I quoted in its context is saying what I said - God is not like us. He neither lies nor must repent, ie., He is not given to change like we are. And since He does not change then the God head being Father, Son & Holy Spirit does not contradict this. Not that it makes it all that simple to understand either. If there were no theophanies at all in the scripture, this would be an unsolvable riddle. Spiritual beings can take on the form of a man and could eat & drink when they did.

Mograce2U
Nov 4th 2007, 08:48 PM
I don't understand. Are you saying that things happen in this world outside of God's wishes? Maybe I was taught wrong, but I was always told that God was all-powerful. That would mean that everything that happens is His will.

You seem to believe that these things just happen and have no significance.Your direction here is backwards. Everything God wills, happens. It is determinism that says the circumstance equates to God's will. Certainly He permits us some freedom, else we would have been dead a long time ago - like in Noah's day. You cannot attribute sin to God since it belongs squarely upon man. That He allowed it, even knew it would occur does not mean He willed it. His stated will was that Adam and Eve NOT eat from the tree. Unless of course you think that God doesn't mean what He says... (I think that was the position the serpent took).

Teke
Nov 4th 2007, 09:10 PM
OK so God isn't all-powerful. Check.

What people do has nothing to do with God being all powerful. Does mankind prove God is all powerful?

You've made it seem because of Jewish accomplishment, God is proven all powerful.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 02:12 PM
You've made it seem because of Jewish accomplishment, God is proven all powerful.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Jewish accomplishments are God's will, not random chance.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 02:12 PM
Your direction here is backwards. Everything God wills, happens.
Exactly.
Now, why does God will that Jews be so prominent in this world?

Mograce2U
Nov 5th 2007, 04:52 PM
Exactly.
Now, why does God will that Jews be so prominent in this world?They were to be a witness for God in the world. God chose them to be a nation to testify to His glory. He gave them a city and a temple in which He promised to place His name forever. The temple was to be a house of prayer for all nations and the place where Messiah would come.

Solomon's dedication is interesting in this light. The temple was the key to their strength, their forgiveness and restoration to His favor whenever they sinned regardless of where they had been scattered to in the world.

So while Israel seems to have retained some of the earthly blessings they were given, they lack this witness that the Lord is with them.

When Israel split from Judah to follow Jeroboam, they rejected that David's house should rule over them. They ended up captives of Syria 100+ years before Judah went into captivity in Babylon. This covenant split was predicted and the promise to the house of David went to Judah and Benjamin. So when we consider who Israel is today without the sceptre or the temple, I do not see that they are the ones who have the promises of God, though they are in the land and have worldly prosperity.

And this was God's will which He stated to them would happen if they forsook Him.

Jesus did come to the temple and saved the lost sheep of Israel & Gentiles - the remnant of that day. Both Jews and Christians were scattered into the nations - only one of which carried a testimony that God was with them. That has been the Christian testimony ever since who continues to gather souls to the Lord & His kingdom with the gospel of Christ. Israel on the other hand has not brought forth this fruit in the world. Noble prize winners perhaps, but what does the Lord care about that? It is the salvation of souls that He desires, which Israel seems to be not too concerned with.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 05:19 PM
That's a very long answer that does not address Jewish prominence in the world, especially in modern times.

Mograce2U
Nov 5th 2007, 05:25 PM
That's a very long answer that does not address Jewish prominence in the world, especially in modern times.Those who built the Tower of Babel sought prominence in the world too. If people stick together there's no telling what they can accomplish.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 05:46 PM
If people stick together there's no telling what they can accomplish.
OK, so God has no role in Jewish prominence. It's just Jews working hard. Is that right?

Teke
Nov 5th 2007, 05:55 PM
That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Jewish accomplishments are God's will, not random chance.

That mankind, Jewish or otherwise, can accomplish anything doesn't make it Gods' will.
And how do you know that anything of that sort is actually God's will. You are judging what is right and wrong also using statistics to make your case.

Basically your saying Jewish prominence is not because Jewish people want to be Jewish or prominent, but because it is God's will. And then I assume you mean this to be a good thing, because you have associated it all with a prize or reward which I'm suppose to relate as a symbol of that truth.

Perhaps I'm not so superstitious (false conception of causation) as all that.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 06:20 PM
That mankind, Jewish or otherwise, can accomplish anything doesn't make it Gods' will. OK. so AGAIN, then God is not all-powerful. Things happen outside His control. Yes, or no?

Teke
Nov 5th 2007, 06:37 PM
OK. so AGAIN, then God is not all-powerful. Things happen outside His control. Yes, or no?

Yes, if you believe, "all powerful" = "control".
I don't recall the scriptures saying God would make man to control.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 06:41 PM
Yes, if you believe, "all powerful" = "control".
I don't recall the scriptures saying God would make man to control.
Either God is all-powerful or He isn't.

If I buy a lottery ticket and I win, either it was God's will or it was a random accident. Which one do you believe?

Mograce2U
Nov 5th 2007, 06:42 PM
OK, so God has no role in Jewish prominence. It's just Jews working hard. Is that right?God has said that He will bless the nations that keep His commands. It makes sense to see that the blessings which both Israel and the USA enjoy are due to this. But we also see that as we fall away from the moral laws of God that such blessing is waning. Israel is in strife with her neighbors and the USA is on its way to economic collapse if things continue as they have. Man can only do so much in his own strength to help himself. But when man thinks that by what he does, God is therefore obliged to bless, that man/ nation is in for a rude awakening.

Israel's preeminence in the world does not supercede God's. And it says nothing ultimately about her relationship with God. It is God's word which brings Him glory and us blessing. For those who make the attempt to obey His commands they will find blessing in doing that. But even those who do not may still prosper for a time. So what does it ultimately reveal in this life, when it is the next life that one must consider? If one wins the Nobel life in this life but spends eternity in hell?

And don't tell me there is no hell because that will not make it go away...

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 07:10 PM
God has said that He will bless the nations that keep His commands. It makes sense to see that the blessings which both Israel and the USA enjoy are due to this. But we also see that as we fall away from the moral laws of God that such blessing is waning. Israel is in strife with her neighbors and the USA is on its way to economic collapse if things continue as they have. Man can only do so much in his own strength to help himself. But when man thinks that by what he does, God is therefore obliged to bless, that man/ nation is in for a rude awakening. OK, I won't argue with this part too much. Israel is hated because her neighbors are wicked nations, not because Jews are found wanting (they are, but that's besides the point). America is not going to have an economic collapse, don't worry about that.


Israel's preeminence in the world does not supercede God'sIt's not Israel I am talking about, it's Jews. Jews have the highest average income of any ethnic group in this country. It isn't because Jews are smarter than everyone else or because Jews like money; it's because God wills it that way, for whatever reason.

Teke
Nov 5th 2007, 07:53 PM
Either God is all-powerful or He isn't.

If I buy a lottery ticket and I win, either it was God's will or it was a random accident. Which one do you believe?

I don't believe it proves anything about God. It just means you played a game and won that time. In games of chance sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Why would I need to win at something to prove God is all powerful, when all I need is to look at creation.

Is this what God means to Jews. Who has or is the greater.....

Mograce2U
Nov 5th 2007, 08:51 PM
OK, I won't argue with this part too much. Israel is hated because her neighbors are wicked nations, not because Jews are found wanting (they are, but that's besides the point). America is not going to have an economic collapse, don't worry about that.

It's not Israel I am talking about, it's Jews. Jews have the highest average income of any ethnic group in this country. It isn't because Jews are smarter than everyone else or because Jews like money; it's because God wills it that way, for whatever reason.Not according to scripture. Riches don't always come by right - or righteousness. The rich may have it soft in this life, but all must go to the grave regardless. Skill at making money does not prove one is godly or in His favor. It may however prove his god is money...

A greedy or covetous man spends much of his time concerned with such things. It only makes sense that he would excel at what he puts his heart and mind to.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 08:57 PM
I don't believe it proves anything about God. It just means you played a game and won that time. In games of chance sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. OK, so AGAIN, God is not all powerful.


Is this what God means to Jews. Who has or is the greater.....No, blesses the Jews with things to make our mission easier.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 08:58 PM
Skill at making money does not prove one is godly or in His favor.
Skill has nothing to do with it. If God blesses one with wealth, it is for a reason.

Teke
Nov 5th 2007, 09:23 PM
OK, so AGAIN, God is not all powerful.

No, He is weak as a child.


No, blesses the Jews with things to make our mission easier.

I see. :hmm:
If I'm Jewish things are easier for me. Interesting concept.

Fenris
Nov 5th 2007, 09:36 PM
I see. :hmm:
If I'm Jewish things are easier for me. Interesting concept.

No, your mission is difficult so God helps out.

Fenris
Nov 6th 2007, 01:32 PM
The Talmud states that a blade of grass cannot grow without an angel standing over it telling to do so. The fact is that none of this, none of us, are real. Everything that exists is really just a figment of God's imagination, and everything continues to exist only because God continues to will everything to exist. God is intimately involved in every detail of existence, no matter how trivial it may seem. Nothing is left to chance and nothing is an accident.

Teke
Nov 6th 2007, 04:54 PM
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Fenris
Nov 6th 2007, 05:08 PM
Teke, you just made one of those posts I don't understand. Anyway:

Psalm 127: If the Lord will not build a house, its builders have toiled at it in vain; if the Lord will not guard a city, [its] watcher keeps his vigil in vain.

Teke
Nov 6th 2007, 05:10 PM
Scripture sounds contrary.

Fenris
Nov 6th 2007, 05:18 PM
Scripture sounds contrary.I don't understand this one either.

Teke
Nov 6th 2007, 08:24 PM
I don't understand this one either.

If God says in the scriptures that He has done everything to produce good and it doesn't, does that mean He only wants everything to be bad?
You said it is all His all powerful will.

Fenris
Nov 6th 2007, 08:47 PM
God creates everything in our world, both good and bad. To wit, Isaiah 45:7 "Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these."

So yes, everything that happens in this world is God's will. Even the bad stuff.

RSiscoe
Nov 7th 2007, 09:05 PM
God creates everything in our world, both good and bad. To wit, Isaiah 45:7 "Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these."

So yes, everything that happens in this world is God's will. Even the bad stuff.

That's true, but we need to distinguish the two levels of God's Will: The anticedent will of God (which is what he "wants") and the consequent will of God (what He permits). The first is what He desires to happen, the other He only desires to allow.

Fenris
Nov 8th 2007, 03:38 PM
That's true, but we need to distinguish the two levels of God's Will: The anticedent will of God (which is what he "wants") and the consequent will of God (what He permits). The first is what He desires to happen, the other He only desires to allow.Well, we don't see it that way. If God is in fact all-powerful, everything that happens is according to his desires. That doesn't mean we can understand why some event was His desire, although we can strive to try.