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jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 02:03 AM
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.



70 WEEKS and Jesus would bring in all this.?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish this.
He has won and is seated at Gods right hand.
This means the 70 weeks must be over . :hmm:
If there is a large gap between the 69 and 70th week, then the decree should be longer than 70 weeks..

I think it is 70 weeks unbroken, so here is my 2 cents worth.

25 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:25'))
"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

so 69 weeks pass without a hitch and Jesus arrives in the 70th week on time.
The people at the time of John the Baptist, were in expectation of the fullfillment of the prophecy,



lk 3
So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


Now while the people were in a state of expectation and all were wondering in their hearts about John, as to whether he was the[6] Christ,



Must of been the prophets who made them aware, especially Dan 9

cont'

26 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:26')) "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

After the 69 week, which makes it the 70 week ,he was killed and rome came in and desolated.



And its end [I]will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


27 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:27')) "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;




The HE that makes a FIRM cov for the last week appears to be Jesus-- With the lords supper, (the firmest of covs) -----the only covenant we know of, if that was indeed the 70th week... ,and the middle of the 70 week ---(3 1/2 year ministry) saw him die and put an end to sacrifice and sin offerings.

The latter 1/2 of the week is attributed to the continueing of the work by the disciples--(to the Jew first ministry that Jesus began)

This ends their 70 weeks, with the conversion of cornelius--the first Gentile, when the mission went to all the people.



and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


The Gospel must be preached to all tongues and then the end will come.
The fullness of the gentiles will come in.


John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
17 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Lk 3:17')) "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Allegra
Oct 21st 2007, 02:59 AM
I agree. This is fulfilled prophecy. The Bible says:
"Seventy Weeks are determined." This period is composed of seven weeks, during which the city of Jerusalem is restored. Then a period of 434 years (62 weeks) elapse until the baptism of Christ. The baptism of Christ is established because He is referred to as Messiah, the Prince, in other words, the Anointed One. There remained but one week. It is generally established that Christ ministered three and one half years before His crucifixion, when He was cut off. The remaining three and one half years was the period of time when the gospel was proclaimed to the Jews, ending with Peter's Divinely guided mission to the house of Cornelius who was the first Gentile to embrace salvation. (Acts chapter 10) Further, the duration of the Covenant was not limited to one week, but was ratified during that one week of prophecy. Its duration was and is endless!
This is the New and Everlasting Covenant. ;)

vinsight4u8
Oct 21st 2007, 03:54 AM
Look at how Daniel 9 ends with two different determined sets of time.

verse 26 - determined
unto the end of the war
desolations are determined


verse 27 -determined
So who is the he in this verse?
He is found at the beginning of the chapter. It is why Gabriel came to Daniel - due to his supplications.
Why was Daniel supplicating?
Because he had read about a he in Jeremiah. A he that has 70 years to desolate Jerusalem.

See Jeremiah 25:11-13
Daniel knew that till this he (the last Babylonian king) finishes the time up for the Babylonian kings to rule the world - Israel still had time left to serve Babylon.

not a king of Persia - but they must one day serve again a king of Babylon
They have to finish serving Babylon till the Babylonian kings have ruled for seventy years.

Last time

Babylon - Cyrus
605 --------539
B.C.

The great tribulation will be the close of those Jeremiah 25:11's seventy years.

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 05:05 AM
Hi Vin

Are you saying that the 70 years under Babylon is not complete?



2 chr 36
Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20 Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

EZRA 1
Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:
2 "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.


DAN 9
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

zech 7:5
1 In the fourth year of King Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah on the fourth day of the ninth month, which is Chislev.
2 Now the town of Bethel had sent Sharezer and Regemmelech and their men to seek the favor of the LORD,
3 speaking to the priests who belong to the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, "Shall I weep in the fifth month and abstain, as I have done these many years?"
4 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,
5 "Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, 'When you fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months these seventy years, was it actually for Me that you fasted?


It appears that it is fullfilled.
Daniel prayed to the point of wearyness as he knew the 70 years were over,praying him to remember his people.
Gabriel was on his way to him the moment he started praying, and told him it would be 7 times as long as the captivity they just went through, before Messiah would come and do his glorious work.



I agree. This is fulfilled prophecy. The Bible says:
"Seventy Weeks are determined."


Hi Allegra
You put it across better than what i did.----:kiss:

vinsight4u8
Oct 21st 2007, 05:20 AM
Stop and think about this just a bit more maybe----

Jeremiah wrote down two 70-yr prophecies as to serving Babylon.
But are they exactly alike? When one comes to pass, does that mean the other one is also fulfilled?

Jeremiah 29 - tells when it went out to those via a letter in the days of Nebuchadnezzar to the captives in Babylon.
yet- at the start of Daniel 9 - he acts as if he has just found this prophecy that he supplicated over

Jeremiah 29 is easy to understand - just go to Babylon - build their hourses, plant their gardens and wait out the 70 years there.

So about 66.5 years under the Babylonian kings and about 3.5 under Cyrus and Darius. (Persian and Median)

But what does it take to bring Jeremiah 25:11-12 to pass? How about if we add in verse 13?

Jeremiah 25:11
"And this whole land shall be a desolation...these nations shall serve the king of Babylon for seventy years."
Till that part comes to pass - the next verse is still awaiting its day.

v12
"And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, {that} I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD...and will make it perpetual desolations."

So if, and only if the seventy years of the nations serving Babylonian kings have come to pass - then can Babylon be made perpetual desolations. This can only happen when a period of Israel in captivity serving a Babylonian king comes to pass - and ends at the time of 70 years - with the Babylonian king and his land being punished.

See how Daniel was concerned over a 70 years of desolation prophecy?
A certain he is to desolate Jerusalem for 70 years and then get punished.

Last time - the 70 years point came where a Persian king was in power over Babylon and there hadn't been a Babylonian king ruling for several years. So the world
still awaits the last rule of Babylon and her Babylonia king.
that man of sin king
from Iraq

Then as shown in Jeremiah 25:12 the land of the Chaldeans will be punished.

Cyberseeker
Oct 21st 2007, 05:37 AM
My view is that the 490 years is unbroken and continuous ending October 33AD, the sacrificial system having been bought to an end by Messiahs sacrifice 3 1/2 years earlier. (April 30AD)

It make more sense than jambing a spanner into Gods prophetic clock.

Cyberseeker
Oct 21st 2007, 05:46 AM
It is generally established that Christ ministered three and one half years before His crucifixion, when He was cut off. The remaining three and one half years was the period of time when the gospel was proclaimed to the Jews, ending with Peter's Divinely guided mission to the house of Cornelius who was the first Gentile to embrace salvation. ;)


Allegra, I agree with this. My only problem is that commentator's sometimes date Cornelius as late as 40AD. The crucification however was 30AD.

I would be very interested to see datal evidence that Cornelius conversion was 3.5 years after the cross.

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 06:08 AM
Jeremiah wrote down two 70-yr prophecies as to serving Babylon.

Their is not 2 quoted from the scriptures above.Just what concerned Judah and the captivity.
It wasnt about Nations but about Daniels people.
70 weeks were also decreed for Daniels people and the new covenant has been confirmed to them, as promised within that 70 weeks.
Now it is time to go to the nations--messiah has come according to the promise and the 70 weeks, he hath bought salvation, he set a seal of approval on the prophecies concerning himself.....but most ,sadly rejected him.Put him to death.
The believing remnant after the 70 weeks went into all the world.

What a picture of grace i see in all of this.
first he comes majesticly and so tenderly, but the crowd want Barabass, and the lord dies.
Day of pentecost comes around and i reckon those very same people that shouted Barbreadless (barabas) are cut to the heart and 3000 of them ARE saved. How gracious..
Those that dont are shipped off to the nations, and guess what, God is there again holding out the Gospel to them.......Thats just incredible grace and love and patience. God is so wonderful and how blessed we are to have a true God of this Nature. What a future.

Wintermute
Oct 21st 2007, 06:25 AM
My view is that the 490 years is unbroken and continuous ending October 33AD, the sacrificial system having been bought to an end by Messiahs sacrifice 3 1/2 years earlier. (April 30AD)

It make more sense than jambing a spanner into Gods prophetic clock.

Amen

I view the 490 as follows:

Start of the 490 years: Ezra 7 & Ezra 6:14
458-457 BC (depending on where you put the start of the reign of Artaxerxes, and thus the seventh year when the last decree goes forth)

7 weeks (49 years)
Under the direction of Ezra and then Nehemiah, Jerusalem in all its fullness (political and physical) undergoes rebuilding.

62 weeks (434 years)
Time from the completion of Jerusalem to Messiah (messiah means anointed)

Luke 3:1, In the 15th year of Tiberius Jesus is anointed by the Holy Spirit: If you put this reign as starting with Tiberius' co-ruling with Augustus, then it starts in 12 AD and the 15th year is 27AD. Christ is 30 years old at this time (Luke 3:23) see also Numbers 4:3,23 etc.

1 week (7 years)
Messiah cut off...in the middle of the week bringing an end to sacrifice and offering (curtain torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45)
Three and a half years Jesus' ministry continues until His death, Passover 31 AD.

Even after the death of Christ at the hands of the Jewish Sanhedrin, the gospel is preached to Israel. Based on the prophecy this continues 3 1/2 years to 34 AD. Most probable end date is at the stoning of Stephen at the hands of the Sanhedrin where Stephen speaks to them as a prophet and sees Christ standing at the right hand of God, before dying.

Because of these acts against Christ and His church, desolations are determined. Israel destroyed itself, it lost the protection of God, and Deuteronomy 28 was fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is an expansion and explanation of Messiah being cut off and the result thereof. I'm so far convinced that Messiah cut off, he shall confirm a covenant, he shall bring an end to sacrifice, the prince who is to come, and the one who makes desolate are all referring to Christ.

This prophecy also explains why Christ answered Peter in Mt 18:22 regarding forgiveness: Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." There is a double meaning, inclusive of the forgiveness of God toward the nation of Israel for 490 years.

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 06:27 AM
I would be very interested to see datal evidence that Cornelius conversion was 3.5 years after the cross.

Ive begun my search on that, though i think the gospel had to be preached to the Jew first and then the gentile...Why?
Maybe because 70 weeks were decreed for them for them to know salvation and they did, but they rejected it.
So those branches that did not believe where replaced with Gentile people.
Grace upon grace as the jews were scattered everywhere and the gospel went everywhere as well...To make them Jealous, so we could save some of them before the end comes at the end of the gospel age of Gods patience.

ShirleyFord
Oct 21st 2007, 06:28 AM
Allegra, I agree with this. My only problem is that commentator's sometimes date Cornelius as late as 40AD. The crucification however was 30AD.

I believe the 70 weeks ended with the death of Stephen and the Church of only Jews were scattered out of Jerusalem because of their persecution. And the gospel began going forth beyond the city of Jerusalem.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the LORD Jesus.

21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 06:38 AM
I believe the 70 weeks ended with the death of Stephen and the Church of only Jews were scattered out of Jerusalem because of their persecution. And the gospel began going forth beyond the city of Jerusalem.


Well that makes sense, looking at what Jesus said;


"These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.


God bless you ShirleyFord

Wintermute
Oct 21st 2007, 06:42 AM
The new nation of Israel becomes the Christian church after AD34

Mt 21:43: "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Matthew 8:10-12 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

John 4:19-26 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Galatians 3:7-16, 26-29 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"*), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. … For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

etc.

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 06:51 AM
Thats Fantastic Wintermute, A big fat AMEN to that.( catches my breath)

Wintermute
Oct 21st 2007, 07:01 AM
Another example is in the healing and resurrection of a woman and girl. See Mark 5:21-43. A woman typically, symbolically, represents a church or Israel in the Bible, so also the number 12. There is a woman with twelve years of bleeding, Christ brings this bleeding to a stop (Consider this as an analogy of Israel's bloody sacrificial system ended) and soon after a twelve year old girl is brought to life (The new Christian church is brought to life).

Fun stuff. :)

Cyberseeker
Oct 21st 2007, 07:01 AM
The new nation of Israel becomes the Christian church after AD34

Mt 21:43: "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.



Hey Mute,

Try saying that on some boards and they'll have ya walk the plank. :o

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2007, 07:11 AM
I think that has to be true Cyber.
The prophets ,Moses, all spoke about Gods plan and kingdom being founded in Messiah. It was Jesus and the Gospel that was the cornerstone of the kingdom promises made to them . Without it none would enter it.

Wintermute
Oct 21st 2007, 07:19 AM
Hey Mute,

Try saying that on some boards and they'll have ya walk the plank. :o

Indeed. How you view Israel is profound in understanding end times, esp in Revelation. Surprisingly enough, the view that Israel now represents the church is an old teaching typical of much of protestantism until the mid-1800's. The concept of Israel in the Bible being the literal nation wasn't catching on until John Darby started preaching it in the mid 1840's - 1850's. I personally don't agree with his position.

ShirleyFord
Oct 21st 2007, 09:29 PM
70 WEEKS and Jesus would bring in all this.?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish this.
He has won and is seated at Gods right hand.
This means the 70 weeks must be over . :hmm:
If there is a large gap between the 69 and 70th week, then the decree should be longer than 70 weeks..

I think it is 70 weeks unbroken, so here is my 2 cents worth.

25 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:25'))

so 69 weeks pass without a hitch and Jesus arrives in the 70th week on time.
The people at the time of John the Baptist, were in expectation of the fullfillment of the prophecy,



Must of been the prophets who made them aware, especially Dan 9

cont'


After the 69 week, which makes it the 70 week ,he was killed and rome came in and desolated.



The HE that makes a FIRM cov for the last week appears to be Jesus-- With the lords supper, (the firmest of covs) -----the only covenant we know of, if that was indeed the 70th week... ,and the middle of the 70 week ---(3 1/2 year ministry) saw him die and put an end to sacrifice and sin offerings.

The latter 1/2 of the week is attributed to the continueing of the work by the disciples--(to the Jew first ministry that Jesus began)

This ends their 70 weeks, with the conversion of cornelius--the first Gentile, when the mission went to all the people.



The Gospel must be preached to all tongues and then the end will come.
The fullness of the gentiles will come in.

Jeff, I found within this article an interesting section entitled "THE MESSIAH HAS ALREADY COME!" which proves the fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks by Israel's Messiah at His First Coming:

THE PROPHECY OF DANIEL


gives both the timing and the task of the Messiah. In the 9th chapter (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=DAN+9&language=english&version=NIV) we read about the decree issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus (probably in 457 B.C.) granting permission to the Jews to return to Palestine and rebuild the city of Jerusalem. SEVENTY WEEKS were granted from this date "UNTO the Messiah the prince" or "UNTIL the Anointed One" and then "the Anointed One will be cut off... and the people of the ruler (the Romans, according to Josephus) will come and destroy the city and the sanctuary". To our friend Rahmiel Friedland it meant that the Messiah must have come before the destruction of the Temple that happened in the year 70 A.D. ---he must have already come!

And what was the main task of the Messiah? According to Daniel 9:24, he came "to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring everlasting righteousness". The Hebrew text twice uses in this connection the expression "lachtom", "to seal". When our sins have been "sealed" with the atoning blood of Jesus, we must not "poke" and "finger" our own past or that of others.

The New Testament deals with historical facts. Something drastic happened the same year that Jesus died. Even the main Jewish source, the Talmud, speaks about the discontinuation of the sacrificial system before the destruction of the Temple. Something mysterious happened 40 years prior to its destruction. There are three different discussions about it (in Sanh., Abodah Zarah and De Yomah). According to them, the sacrifices lost their power, the Presence of God left the Temple and the gates of the Holy of Holies opened by themselves. The friend of Nicodemus, Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai, who was rescued from beleaguered Jerusalem in a coffin by his disciples, handed down this tradition in Mas. Yomah: "FORTY YEARS PRIOR to the destruction of the Temple... the western candle did not burn and the gates of the Temple opened by themselves; and thus Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai rebuked them saying: 'Temple, Temple, why do you grieve so? I KNOW that you are about to be destroyed.' "

All this occurred 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, in the year 30 A.D., which is considered the year of Jesus' death. We also have this story in three of the Gospels, how the veil of the Temple was rent in two from top to bottom when Jesus died. Three times the Epistle to Hebrews interprets these occurrences: we now have a new hope that enters through the veil to the Holy One. The Messiah entered by His own blood into the Holy of Holies to atone for our sins. And thus he opened up for us "a new and living way" through the curtain to our God, so that we can draw near to Him "in full assurance of faith".
It is most interesting to know that even the Jewish historian Josephus described a similar sign from the same period. Once the heavy gates of brass facing east from the Temple opened by themselves although they had been locked by iron bolts. The Temple guard hastened to notify the commander about the matter and he succeeded in locking them only with great difficulty.

http://www.kirjasilta.net/artikkelit/santala/how1.html

Allegra
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:44 AM
Yes, Shirley, that is something! Sounds like they are now actualizing Daniel's prophecy.

Also in vs. 27 (Dan (9:27) He shall confirm the covenant with many. The "many" here imakes the 2nd 31/2 yrs. not dependent on "thy people" & or many shall accept from thy people. But covenant with MANY doesn't have to necessarily refer to "thy people" as a matter of sequence or preference (the 2nd half of the week) According to the wording in Dan 9:24-27. Only that that's how long it would take (the 1week)

I think I say the 2nd half of the "week" was taught by Peter to the Jews bc the Bible (God's word) says one week. So why shouldn't the 2nd 3 1/2 yrs. follow in order?

yoSAMite
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:14 PM
Quote:
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
70 WEEKS and Jesus would bring in all this.?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish this.
Concerning the 5th accomplishment:
What vision and prophecy were sealed up?
Did Jesus anoint the most holy place?
Is there any evidence that Jesus went into the Holy of Holies?
If not what specifically did he do to accomplish the anointing?

Peace,
Sam

Wintermute
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:35 PM
Isaiah 53
...He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify MANY, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of MANY, And made intercession for the transgressors.

David Taylor
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:51 PM
The prophecy and vision concerning the coming of Messiah was fulfilled and finished and sealed up.

Luke 24:25 "Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, CONCERNING ME. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

Jesus Himself, was the most holy place; that was annointed. The temple made without hands, which speaks far better than the first tabernacle, that is this building.

Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth...43 To him give all the prophets witness"

Wintermute
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:53 PM
Concerning the 5th accomplishment:
What vision and prophecy were sealed up?
Did Jesus anoint the most holy place?
Is there any evidence that Jesus went into the Holy of Holies?
If not what specifically did he do to accomplish the anointing?

Peace,
Sam

"Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy."

The death of Christ makes possible all things listed above. All prophecy and all visions have their center in Christ. John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

The cross makes reconciliation for iniquity. Because of the cross there will be an end of sins. Remember the seals of Revelation, they are opened by lamb that was sacrificied. Because of His offering, prophecy unfolded and continues to unfolded under His direction. The annointing of the Most Holy is made possible by the death of Christ.

The functions of the Most Holy specifically refer to the events of the Day of Atonement (see Leviticus 16, Heb 9:7)

There's probably more to it than this, but the culmination of the 70 weeks is the last week, upon which the fate of all humanity rests, the summation of all things.

Wintermute
Oct 22nd 2007, 07:55 PM
Jesus Himself, was the most holy place; that was annointed. The temple made without hands, which speaks far better than the first tabernacle, that is this building.


Thats a good point.

yoSAMite
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:04 PM
Wintermuth and David,

Thanks for the replies and they are fine allegorizations, but I believe they fall short from a literal viewpoint. I would like to add that I'm no Greek or Hebrew scholar or student.

David Taylor
Oct 22nd 2007, 09:34 PM
Wintermuth and David,

Thanks for the replies and they are fine allegorizations, but I believe they fall short from a literal viewpoint. I would like to add that I'm no Greek or Hebrew scholar or student.


I am no Greek or Hebrew scholar either.

I will say, however, from my perspective, I believe Jesus 100% literally fulfilled both of those two points.

If someone were to say that "Jesus did not 100% literally fulfill those points", and that "Jesus was doing some incomplete, impartial allegorization"; I would be one of the first ones to step up and disagree with them in a heartbeat!

When Jesus said He was the bread of life, and the door of the sheep pen, and the root of the vine, etc....those are examples of allegorization. (We all know Jesus wasn't a literal loaf of bread).

But when Jesus said that he fulfilled the prophecies of the prophets concerning Himself, I literally believe He meant it!

jeffweeder
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:29 PM
Hi khoolaid

we do know when to start counting the 70 weeks, so if Jesus didnt fulfill these 2 points, the prophecy fails.

I used to wonder about these 2 points also.
Dave and Winter gave a good explanation of this.
To seal up means to proove the vision genuine, they used to put seals on things to show it genuiness.

"All the prophets and the law prophesied until John" (Mt. 11:13)

Daniel is told to seal it up
In rev, Jesus is the only one who can unseal it--vision and prophecy are sealed up in him.

The holy place has never been so annointed, since Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to the holy of holies once ..and for all.

koscheiman
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:18 AM
70 WEEKS and Jesus would bring in all this.?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish this.
He has won and is seated at Gods right hand.
This means the 70 weeks must be over . :hmm:
If there is a large gap between the 69 and 70th week, then the decree should be longer than 70 weeks..

I think it is 70 weeks unbroken, so here is my 2 cents worth.

25 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:25'))

so 69 weeks pass without a hitch and Jesus arrives in the 70th week on time.
The people at the time of John the Baptist, were in expectation of the fullfillment of the prophecy,



Must of been the prophets who made them aware, especially Dan 9

cont'


After the 69 week, which makes it the 70 week ,he was killed and rome came in and desolated.



The HE that makes a FIRM cov for the last week appears to be Jesus-- With the lords supper, (the firmest of covs) -----the only covenant we know of, if that was indeed the 70th week... ,and the middle of the 70 week ---(3 1/2 year ministry) saw him die and put an end to sacrifice and sin offerings.

The latter 1/2 of the week is attributed to the continueing of the work by the disciples--(to the Jew first ministry that Jesus began)

This ends their 70 weeks, with the conversion of cornelius--the first Gentile, when the mission went to all the people.



The Gospel must be preached to all tongues and then the end will come.
The fullness of the gentiles will come in.

vert good post I too believe the 70 weeks ended at the desolation of Jerusalem by Rome. There are to many who want to seperate the 69th and 70th weeks. Jesus is now king and sits on the throne in heaven.

DIZZY
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:24 AM
I do not believe that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled only 69 of those weeks have passed and we are living in the 69 week. I believe the 70 week (last 7yrs) will not start until The Anti-Christ appears on the scene with a peace treaty. I have placed a post explaining the 70 weeks if anyone is interested I would like to here your replies.

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2007, 07:43 AM
I do not believe that the 70 weeks have been fulfilled only 69 of those weeks have passed and we are living in the 69 week.

Hi dizzy.

That appears to make nonsense of the expectation people had that God did indeed tell us the exact time of messiahs arrival.

Everyone seems to come to the conclusion that the 70 weeks = 490 years.
This must be a correct interpretation as messiah came on the scene exacly 483 yrs later.
So why do some all of a sudden see a mutation in the meaning of the 70 weeks when it comes to last week?
If 490 years is the correct interpretation of what the 70 weeks meant--why argue with it?

Wintermute
Oct 23rd 2007, 08:17 AM
Everyone seems to come to the conclusion that the 70 weeks = 490 years.


See also:

Numbers 14:34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection.

Ezekiel 4:5-8 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year. Therefore you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem; your arm shall be uncovered, and you shall prophesy against it. And surely I will restrain you so that you cannot turn from one side to another till you have ended the days of your siege.

There are other less obvious verses; these are the most striking I know of.

yoSAMite
Oct 24th 2007, 06:25 PM
I am no Greek or Hebrew scholar either.

I will say, however, from my perspective, I believe Jesus 100% literally fulfilled both of those two points.

If someone were to say that "Jesus did not 100% literally fulfill those points", and that "Jesus was doing some incomplete, impartial allegorization"; I would be one of the first ones to step up and disagree with them in a heartbeat!

When Jesus said He was the bread of life, and the door of the sheep pen, and the root of the vine, etc....those are examples of allegorization. (We all know Jesus wasn't a literal loaf of bread).

But when Jesus said that he fulfilled the prophecies of the prophets concerning Himself, I literally believe He meant it!
I agree with your perspective in that we should look for Jesus in every instance in the Bible, it can make even seemingly boring passages exciting. With that being said, I also believe we cannot ignore any literal meanings of passages.

My study shows that the phrase "holy of holies" or "holy place" is used 39 times and in each and every time it is used of the Temple, never of a person. So with all due respect, I question if one can dismiss the literal meanings of the words and replace it with an allegorical interpretation.

Being a fairly standard pre-trib guy I obviously believe that all of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled at the Glorious Appearing on all the different levels one can imagine.

David Taylor
Oct 24th 2007, 08:32 PM
Being a fairly standard pre-trib guy I obviously believe that all of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled at the Glorious Appearing on all the different levels one can imagine.


Actually, if 'a fairly standard pre-trib guy' means one that falls into the general pre-trib dispensational belief system, you can't expect Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled at the Glorious Appearing.

The standard pre-trib viewpoint expects Ezekiel 40-48 to be literally fulfilled after the Glorious Appearing, during the 1000 years that follow it.

If Ezekiel 40-48 is venued after the Glorious Appearing, it shows a continuation of sin and transgression; where reconciliation for iniquity and everlasting righteousness are not yet fully arrived.

So then, in the standard Pre-trib view, Daniel 9:24 cannot be completely and fully fulfilled until 1000 years after the Glorious Appearing.

Just one of the many reasons that I myself, after being pretrib for over 20 years, am no longer pretrib.

ShirleyFord
Oct 25th 2007, 01:39 AM
My study shows that the phrase "holy of holies" or "holy place" is used 39 times and in each and every time it is used of the Temple, never of a person. So with all due respect, I question if one can dismiss the literal meanings of the words and replace it with an allegorical interpretation.

John tells us in John 2 that Jesus, a real live literal person, is the temple:

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

The first and second stone temples were temporal and pointed to the eternal temple Jesus Christ.

The city of Jerusalem was holy only because of the temple within the city. The stone temple was holy since it housed the tabernacle, the holy place and the most holy place where God chose to put His Name in the earth.

The temple was the place where the high priest went into the holy of holies of the tabernacle once a year and offered the blood of animal for his own sins and the sins of Israel on the Day of Attonement. This blood covered the people's sins from God's wrath until the following year.

But Jesus, the true High Priest of God sacrificed His own body and blood and offered it up to God. He blood sacrifice doesn't just cover over our sins, it takes away our sins away, with just that one sacrifice for all time. Jesus, the Lamb of God, doesn't have to die over and over as the lambs did before He came and died for our sins.

Now all we have to do for our sins is to come to the true temple of God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept His already sacrificed pure offering of grace by faith.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Shirley

jeffweeder
Nov 1st 2007, 06:34 AM
But Jesus, the true High Priest of God sacrificed His own body and blood and offered it up to God. He blood sacrifice doesn't just cover over our sins, it takes away our sins away, with just that one sacrifice for all time. Jesus, the Lamb of God, doesn't have to die over and over as the lambs did before He came and died for our sins.

Now all we have to do for our sins is to come to the true temple of God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept His already sacrificed pure offering of grace by faith.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. .................................................. ........................

yoSAMite
Nov 2nd 2007, 05:19 AM
Shirley said

John tells us in John 2 that Jesus, a real live literal person, is the temple:.......

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

The first and second stone temples were temporal and pointed to the eternal temple Jesus Christ.

The city of Jerusalem was holy only because of the temple within the city. The stone temple was holy since it housed the tabernacle, the holy place and the most holy place where God chose to put His Name in the earth.

The temple was the place where the high priest went into the holy of holies of the tabernacle once a year and offered the blood of animal for his own sins and the sins of Israel on the Day of Attonement. This blood covered the people's sins from God's wrath until the following year.

But Jesus, the true High Priest of God sacrificed His own body and blood and offered it up to God. He blood sacrifice doesn't just cover over our sins, it takes away our sins away, with just that one sacrifice for all time. Jesus, the Lamb of God, doesn't have to die over and over as the lambs did before He came and died for our sins.

Now all we have to do for our sins is to come to the true temple of God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and accept His already sacrificed pure offering of grace by faith.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Hi Shirley,
I can't argue with anything you said as I agree with it 100%. It unfortunately doesn't address the literal translation of Daniel 9.

It seems to me that the allegorical and literal interpretations should not be in conflict with one another, if they are I would think that one of the two interpretations is wrong. I personally will error on the side of literal rather than allegory. To error on the side of allegory allows to much freedom to ones views and less reliance on what the Bible says.

ShirleyFord
Nov 2nd 2007, 07:02 AM
Shirley said
Hi Shirley,
I can't argue with anything you said as I agree with it 100%. It unfortunately doesn't address the literal translation of Daniel 9.

It seems to me that the allegorical and literal interpretations should not be in conflict with one another, if they are I would think that one of the two interpretations is wrong. I personally will error on the side of literal rather than allegory. To error on the side of allegory allows to much freedom to ones views and less reliance on what the Bible says.

Jesus is the literal eternal temple that the temporary stone temple pointed to. And since Jesus dwells in us spiritually by His Spirit, we are the literal earthly temple today. I don't believe that my literal interpretation of Jesus as "the most holy" is an allegorical interpretation.

Shirley

Cyberseeker
Nov 2nd 2007, 11:45 AM
I would go even further than what Shirley is saying. Not only is Christ the reality but it is the (man made) temple that is the allegory.


The Holy Spirit points out that the way into the [true Holy of] Holies is not yet thrown open as long as the former [the outer portion of the] tabernacle remains a recognized institution and is still standing. Seeing that that first [outer portion of the] tabernacle was a parable (a visible symbol ) ...
(Hebrews 9:8-9 Amplified)

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 08:23 AM
Hi dizzy.

That appears to make nonsense of the expectation people had that God did indeed tell us the exact time of messiahs arrival.

Everyone seems to come to the conclusion that the 70 weeks = 490 years.
This must be a correct interpretation as messiah came on the scene exacly 483 yrs later.
So why do some all of a sudden see a mutation in the meaning of the 70 weeks when it comes to last week?
If 490 years is the correct interpretation of what the 70 weeks meant--why argue with it?

Did not Zechariah prophecy that their Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.
Zechariah 9:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=9&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
“ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=21&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
“ Tell the daughter of Zion,‘ Behold, your King is coming to you,Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,A colt, the foal of a donkey.’”

Was not that prophecy fullfilled when Christ road o the donkey into Jerusalem.

God told Israel how their Messiah was coming, But still they didn't believe. He told them When and How isn't that telling them the exact time they would know their Messiah.


Matthew 21:6-11
6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set Him on them. 8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying:
“ Hosanna to the Son of David!

‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’
Hosanna in the highest!”

10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, “Who is this?”
11 So the multitudes said, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee.”

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 08:49 AM
What we must realize is that the 70 weeks have been broken up.
Daniel 9:25
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

So we find here in Daniel 9:25 there are two lots of weeks which add up to 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:26
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Okay lets have a look at the weeks.
Seven sevens 49 years- 445BC-396BC
(From Artaxerxes decree to the arrival of Nehemiah and the covenant renewal celebration at Jerusalem)

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

one seven 7 years- Unfullfilled

Israel will enter into an agreement with the future little horn, who will break that agreement in the middle of it and set himself up in the temple and cease all sacrifices. He will set a statue up of himself and cause all to worship it.

Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

jeffweeder
Nov 5th 2007, 08:59 AM
Did not Zechariah prophecy that their Messiah would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.

yes


Was not that prophecy fullfilled when Christ road o the donkey into Jerusalem.

yes


God told Israel how their Messiah was coming, But still they didn't believe. He told them When and How isn't that telling them the exact time they would know their Messiah.

No. Because anyone could have saddled up the donkey anytime before this and pretended to be him.

Daniel was given the time Messiah would come, and i think the people of the day knew it was the time .
So that , with many other prophecies were fulfilled within that period;

Here's a little article i found--I love this article


near the beginning of the old testament it is stated that the Hebrew nation was being founded for the purpose of blessing the nations. Then there begins to loom the figure of one person,through who the nation will accomplish this mission. 1st he is called Shiloh, to arise in the tribe of Judah, and rule the nations. Then he is called star, who will have dominion. and a prophet like unto Moses, through whom GOD will SPEAK to mankind. And then over and over and over agian he is spoken of as a king, to arise in Davids family, to be called the branch, The prince, the annionted one, Gods 1st born, wonderful, mighty god , everlasting father, PRICE OF PEACE . The exact time of his coming was foretold. He was to be born of a virgin,at Bethlehem. Part of his childhood was to be spent in Egypt and he would be bought up in Nazareth. He would be introduced to his nation by an Elijah like forerunner. Galillee was to be the scene of his ministry. He would work miracles of healing and speak in PARABLES. to be rejected by the leaders of his own nation. Be a smitten shepherd, a sufferer, a man of sorrows. He would enter Jerusalem riding on a colt. He would be betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver, the 30 peices being spent on a potters field. He would be led as a lamb to the slaughter. He would die with the wicked, opening a fountian for sin,He would be given gall and vinegar in his AGONY. His hands and feet would be pierced. Not a bone in his body would be broken. Lots were to be cast for his garments. He would have a rich mans grave,and ascend to gods right hand.


This PRE-WRITTEN story of Jesus, recorded centuries before Jesus came, is so astonishing in detail, that it reads like a eyewitness account of his life and work. soppose a number of men from diff countries who have never met, nor in anyway communicated, would walk into a room , and each had a piece of carved marble, when fitted together, would make a perfect statue. HOW would you account for it in any other way than that some one person had drawn the specifications, and had sent to each man his part.? And how can this amazing composite of Jesus life and work , put together by different writers of different centuries, ages before Jesus came to this earth, be explained any other way than that one superhuman mind supervised the writing?
THE MIRACLE OF THE AGES.

Amen

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 12:59 PM
What we must realize is that the 70 weeks have been broken up.
Daniel 9:25
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

So we find here in Daniel 9:25 there are two lots of weeks which add up to 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:26
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Okay lets have a look at the weeks.
Seven sevens 49 years- 445BC-396BC
(From Artaxerxes decree to the arrival of Nehemiah and the covenant renewal celebration at Jerusalem)

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)



Dizzy, your calculations disagree with Daniel 9:25-26. You place the crucifixion of Christ within the 69 weeks when Daniel places His crucifixion in v. 26 "after" the 69 weeks. And since the crucifixion was after the 69 weeks, it couldn't have still been during the 69th week that Christ was crucified.

As you clearly pointed out, each week of the 70 weeks = 7 years.

The first block of the 70 years was the first 7 weeks = 49 years.

The second block of the 70 years was the next 62 weeks = 434 years

You correctly show how the 62 weeks immediately continued after the 7 weeks without any gaps of years. There is no mention of stopping the count after the 7 weeks of 49 years for any period of time and then restarting it at some point to continue the count thru the next 62 weeks of 434 years.

So why then would you place a gap of 2000+ years between the 69th week and the 70th week when Daniel doesn't?


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 01:02 PM
yes



yes



No. Because anyone could have saddled up the donkey anytime before this and pretended to be him.

Daniel was given the time Messiah would come, and i think the people of the day knew it was the time .
So that , with many other prophecies were fulfilled within that period;

Here's a little article i found--I love this article



Amen

Daniel was not the only one God told that Israel's Messiah was coming and how He would come, there were other prophets that God showed when and how the Messaih would arrive look at Zechariah, Isaiah aswell.

Isaiah 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=7&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 01:47 PM
Daniel was not the only one God told that Israel's Messiah was coming and how He would come, there were other prophets that God showed when and how the Messaih would arrive look at Zechariah, Isaiah aswell.

Isaiah 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=7&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Jesus said that all of the prophets including the law of Moses and the Psalms all prophecied His Coming to Israel.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

But Daniel is the only prophet who prophecied that the Messiah would come when the Roman empire was in power (Daniel 2, 7) after the 69th week of the 70th week prophecy for Daniel's people, the Jews (Daniel 9).

The disciples were looking for their Messiah:

Jn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

The Samaritan woman was looking for the Messiah:
Jn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus told her that He was He:

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


The very learned Jewish leadership knowing the prophecies of the coming of their Messiah and the timing of His coming according to Daniel went out to John the Baptist to inquire of him if he were Israel's promised Messiah since they knew that it was time for Him to show up.

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ (Messiah).


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 01:48 PM
Dizzy, your calculations disagree with Daniel 9:25-26. You place the crucifixion of Christ within the 69 weeks when Daniel places His crucifixion in v. 26 "after" the 69 weeks. And since the crucifixion was after the 69 weeks, it couldn't have still been during the 69th week that Christ was crucified.

As you clearly pointed out, each week of the 70 weeks = 7 years.

The first block of the 70 years was the first 7 weeks = 49 years.

The second block of the 70 years was the next 62 weeks = 434 years

You correctly show how the 62 weeks immediately continued after the 7 weeks without any gaps of years. There is no mention of stopping the count after the 7 weeks of 49 years for any period of time and then restarting it at some point to continue the count thru the next 62 weeks of 434 years.

So why then would you place a gap of 2000+ years between the 69th week and the 70th week when Daniel doesn't?


Shirley

Daniel does place a gap between the 69th and 70th week. Have a closer look at verse 26, you can see there is one to come and causes war which does not finish until the Lord returns. This is a spiritual war between God and Satan and that won't finish until Christ comes and takes back what was His in the first place.

I believe that prophecy hasn't been fullfilled, Israel has not repented, they still do not possess the land that God has promised to give them, they are still attacked by all nations. Christ has not brought peace on the earth. He is not ruling as yet.

The one to bring in this 7 years peace and then break the treaty half way through has not appeared on the scene and if he had then at the end of the 3 1/2 year tribulation the Lord was going to return and restore everything back to it's former glory and that hasn't happened yet so I believe the last 7 years are still to come.

Matthew 24:15-31
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediatelyafter the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Throughout all history even with the kings of other nations taking Jerusalem setting up idols in the temple destroying Jerusalem and persecuting Israel, even though all these things have happened the Lord has still not returned yet. It says immediately after the Lord would return.

There is a sequence of events that happens before the Lord returns.
The abomination of desolation that Daniel speaks of has to come. And when he does come he will break the covenant of peace half way through and set himself up as God in the temple. Then there will be great tribulation as never seen before. Immediately after this the Lord will return.

So how can we say the one in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 is the Lord, when the Lord returns after the great tribulation that the one in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 causes.

I believe that verses 25,26 speak of our Lord but half way through 26 it changes and speaks of another person who is to come, who will continue to fight against Israel until that determined time, when the Lord returns.
When the fullness of the gentiles is fullfilled, this is when the Lord returns and gives back the land to Israel as an eternal possession. No longer will the gentiles harm Israel for they will be under the authority of the Lord and He will rule them with a rode of iron.

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 01:59 PM
Jesus said that all of the prophets including the law of Moses and the Psalms all prophecied His Coming to Israel.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.



But Daniel is the only prophet who prophecied that the Messiah would come when the Roman empire was in power (Daniel 2, 7) after the 69th week of the 70th week prophecy for Daniel's people, the Jews (Daniel 9).


I agree

The disciples were looking for their Messiah:

Jn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

The Samaritan woman was looking for the Messiah:
Jn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

Jesus told her that He was He:

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


The very learned Jewish leadership knowing the prophecies of the coming of their Messiah and the timing of His coming according to Daniel went out to John the Baptist to inquire of him if he were Israel's promised Messiah since they knew that it was time for Him to show up.

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ (Messiah).


Shirley

In verse 26 of Daniel would you not agree that it talks of two people first of Christ and then of the prince being the Roman empire.

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 02:07 PM
Daniel does place a gap between the 69th and 70th week. Have a closer look at verse 26, you can see there is one to come and causes war which does not finish until the Lord returns. This is a spiritual war between God and Satan and that won't finish until Christ comes and takes back what was His in the first place.


But in your calculations of the 70 weeks, you calculate the 62 weeks beginning after the 7 weeks and ending with the crucifixion of Christ. And you conclude that God placed a gap between the 69th week and the 70th, thereby stopping His clock for Israel at the crucifixion of Christ. Yet a careful reading of vs. 25 and 26 show that the Messiah would be crucified "after" the 69th week, not during the 69th week.



25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 02:12 PM
But in your calculations of the 70 weeks, you calculate the 62 weeks beginning after the 7 weeks and ending with the crucifixion of Christ. And you conclude that God placed a gap between the 69th week and the 70th, thereby stopping His clock for Israel at the crucifixion of Christ. Yet a careful reading of vs. 25 and 26 show that the Messiah would be crucified "after" the 69th week, not during the 69th week.



25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:


Shirley

Hi Shirley,

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

If you look at what I have said it puts the Lords crucifixion at the end of the 69 week or shall I say after the 69th week. I think the caculation is correct.

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 03:13 PM
Hi Shirley,

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

If you look at what I have said it puts the Lords crucifixion at the end of the 69 week or shall I say after the 69th week. I think the caculation is correct.

But by your calculations, Dizzy, the crucifixion of Christ occurs at the end of the 434th year of the 62 weeks, the 483th year of the 490 years, thus ending the 69th week.

However Daniel declares in v. 26 that Jesus is cut off after the 483th year of the 490 years. So that would mean that He was crucified sometime after year 483 had ended and after the new year of year 484 of the 70th week had begun.

Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 08:44 PM
But by your calculations, Dizzy, the crucifixion of Christ occurs at the end of the 434th year of the 62 weeks, the 483th year of the 490 years, thus ending the 69th week.

However Daniel declares in v. 26 that Jesus is cut off after the 483th year of the 490 years. So that would mean that He was crucified sometime after year 483 had ended and after the new year of year 484 of the 70th week had begun.

Shirley

Shirley you seem to be missing the first 7 x 7years 49 years add them to the 62 weeks and you get 69 weeks and Christs death after the 69 weeks in 32 AD. So 49 + 434= 483

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 11:32 PM
Shirley you seem to be missing the first 7 x 7years 49 years add them to the 62 weeks and you get 69 weeks and Christs death after the 69 weeks in 32 AD. So 49 + 434= 483

No Dizzy, I responding to your calculations:
----------
Originally Posted by DIZZY http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1431085#post1431085)
Hi Shirley,

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

----------

I added the 49 weeks to make it 69 weeks. I don't agree with your calculations. It seems that no two scholars agree on the starting year date when the 70 weeks began or the ending year date.

But what I have noticed is that regardless of when their starting date is, the calculations of all who are dispensationalist end up with the crucifixion of Christ at the end of the 69th week, thereby, removing the 70th week from the other 69 weeks and throwing it into the far future to 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

And even though now you say that Christ was crucified after the 69 weeks, you still end up at the 69th week of 483 years.

But when we accept what is written in Daniel 9:26, we find that Jesus was crucified after (not during) the 69th week putting His crucifixion in the 70 week.

Shirley

jeffweeder
Nov 6th 2007, 10:37 AM
It seems that no two scholars agree on the starting year date when the 70 weeks began or the ending year date.

At least the 70 weeks are certain....:P

There were 3 decrees given by Persian Kings,regarding Jerusalem.
536BC
457BC...:pp
444BC

457BC, which counting 69 weeks=483 yrs, we arrive at 26AD.
This was Jesus baptism and the start of his Messianic mission. which lasted 31/2 years in what had to be the final week.


"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree[24][Lit word ] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Desolations are determined?
For Who?
Seeing as it is a decree for Daniels people, Daniels people would still suffer desolations after the prince came and destroyed them in 70 AD.
This has certainly been the case for them.
But they still have the gospel to believe in and be saved.:)



In 24 hrs a great deal of those messianic prophecies came to fulfillment, in his trial and death , his last day.


"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

70 weeks was Gods decree to Daniels people.
Unfortuanately too few of them accepted Messiah ,and they were uprooted and dispersed again, and the gentiles are grafted in to Gods people and the fullness of them comes in through the victorious Gospel.
The Gospel shall be preached to all peoples, AND THEN THE END WILL COME.

No wonder Paul 's heart ached for his own people--to the point where he would be willing to be cut off from Christ.


Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY[15][Lit finishing it ] AND QUICKLY[16][Lit cutting it short ]."


29 And just as Isaiah foretold,


"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED[Lit been made like ] GOMORRAH."



30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,


"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

So here we have the Jews exiled for their sins, Daniel is praying very sincerly and gabriel comes with an answer to their prays--70 weeks my man and your people are going to be free, messiah is going to come and conquer sin and establish a new and living way which will lead you to the holy of holies.

70 weeks it was, and it was all done.---But they were not all willing.

And into the whole world they went.

Has God Forsaken his people? No, we are meant to make them jealous, so they'll believe in him too, the gospel followed them into the world...or rather they followed the gospel into the world, God still hasnt given up saving some of them.:bounce:


sorry, im raving on arent I:note:

DIZZY
Nov 6th 2007, 12:19 PM
No Dizzy, I responding to your calculations:
----------
Originally Posted by DIZZY http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1431085#post1431085)
Hi Shirley,

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

----------

I added the 49 weeks to make it 69 weeks. I don't agree with your calculations. It seems that no two scholars agree on the starting year date when the 70 weeks began or the ending year date.

But what I have noticed is that regardless of when their starting date is, the calculations of all who are dispensationalist end up with the crucifixion of Christ at the end of the 69th week, thereby, removing the 70th week from the other 69 weeks and throwing it into the far future to 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ.

And even though now you say that Christ was crucified after the 69 weeks, you still end up at the 69th week of 483 years.

But when we accept what is written in Daniel 9:26, we find that Jesus was crucified after (not during) the 69th week putting His crucifixion in the 70 week.

Shirley

No. But we will go it your way.
Okay 70 weeks were determined for Israel
1. To finish transgressions
2. To make an end to sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy.
6. To anoint the most Holy place.

Has Israels transgressions finished. No
Has there been an end to sin. No
Has reconciliation for Israel's sin been done. No. because they have not repented.
Is there an everlasting righteousness. No. Christ's kingdom has not been handed over to Him yet.
Has prophecy and vision been sealed up. No. We are still using them to this day.
Has Christ anointed the most Holy place. No this won't happen until His appearance at His second coming.

I thought these had been fullfilled at His first coming and dying on the cross for the sin's of the world. But I was wrong they have not been fullfilled not one.

So only part of this prophecy has been fullfilled 69 weeks to be exact, there is still a week to come.

By the way you still haven't answered my question on verse 26.

Daniel 9:26
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Does the first part of the verse speak of Jesus Christ?

Does not the second part of the verse talk about someone else?

DIZZY
Nov 6th 2007, 12:23 PM
At least the 70 weeks are certain....:P

There were 3 decrees given by Persian Kings,regarding Jerusalem.
536BC
457BC...:pp
444BC

457BC, which counting 69 weeks=483 yrs, we arrive at 26AD.
This was Jesus baptism and the start of his Messianic mission. which lasted 31/2 years in what had to be the final week.



Desolations are determined?
For Who?
Seeing as it is a decree for Daniels people, Daniels people would still suffer desolations after the prince came and destroyed them in 70 AD.
This has certainly been the case for them.
But they still have the gospel to believe in and be saved.:)



In 24 hrs a great deal of those messianic prophecies came to fulfillment, in his trial and death , his last day.



70 weeks was Gods decree to Daniels people.
Unfortuanately too few of them accepted Messiah ,and they were uprooted and dispersed again, and the gentiles are grafted in to Gods people and the fullness of them comes in through the victorious Gospel.
The Gospel shall be preached to all peoples, AND THEN THE END WILL COME.

No wonder Paul 's heart ached for his own people--to the point where he would be willing to be cut off from Christ.


Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY[15][Lit finishing it ] AND QUICKLY[16][Lit cutting it short ]."


29 And just as Isaiah foretold,


"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED[Lit been made like ] GOMORRAH."



30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33 just as it is written,


"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

So here we have the Jews exiled for their sins, Daniel is praying very sincerly and gabriel comes with an answer to their prays--70 weeks my man and your people are going to be free, messiah is going to come and conquer sin and establish a new and living way which will lead you to the holy of holies.

70 weeks it was, and it was all done.---But they were not all willing.

And into the whole world they went.

Has God Forsaken his people? No, we are meant to make them jealous, so they'll believe in him too, the gospel followed them into the world...or rather they followed the gospel into the world, God still hasnt given up saving some of them.:bounce:


sorry, im raving on arent I:note:

Yeshttp://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 12:05 AM
But by your calculations, Dizzy, the crucifixion of Christ occurs at the end of the 434th year of the 62 weeks, the 483th year of the 490 years, thus ending the 69th week.

However Daniel declares in v. 26 that Jesus is cut off after the 483th year of the 490 years. So that would mean that He was crucified sometime after year 483 had ended and after the new year of year 484 of the 70th week had begun.

Shirley

Christ was cut off after the 69 week because their were seven lots of seven before the sixtytwo weeks. So you have 49 years first ( 7 weeks of seven ) then the 434 years ( 62 weeks of seven ). At the end of the sixty two weeks of seven the Messiah will be cut off.

So let us do the maths 7 x 7 = 49yrs
62 x 7 = 434yrs
add them together and what do you get 483. So at the end of the 483 yrs the Messiah is cut off, thus leaving one week of seven to go. This week has not been fullfilled yet.

jeffweeder
Nov 7th 2007, 04:45 AM
Christ was cut off after the 69 week

Not immediately after ,as he was to manifest himself and put an end to sin etc first. He had 1 week left to do it.


So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks

In other words, after 7 and 62 weeks, messiah will be revealed.

How did John the baptist know?


The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
31 "I did not recognize Him[I.e. as the Messiah], but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water."
32 John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 "I did not recognize Him[I.e. as the Messiah], but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

After his short 3-1/2 ministry he was cut off in middle of the last week,
( 70 weeks have been decreed)


"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.




"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Not only was the exact time of messiah's revealing foretold , but the exact length of his ministry.

Please understand that Messiah was to be revealed after 69 weeks.
Nothing of these promises had been achieved prior to this like;

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place,

So all of this took place during the 70th week by Messiah Jesus ministry.

If the 70th week is future, then the Gospel is in the future... but as Jesus said "it is finished".

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 10:50 AM
Hi Jeff

to finish the transgression, Hasn't happened
to make an end of sin, Happened but not for Israel they need to repent.
to make atonement for iniquity, Once again Israel has to repent.
to bring in everlasting righteousness, We are not living in an everlasting righteous kingdom
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place, To fullfill the prophecy of Israel's chastning. This can't be fullfilled until Israel repents.

jeffweeder
Nov 7th 2007, 11:14 AM
well Dizzy if your right that should have made the decree not 70 weeks, but in excess of 350 weeks to---
-to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

If Israel didnt repent while Jesus was standing right their in front of them, they wont change even if someone was to come to them risen from the dead.

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 11:17 AM
well Dizzy if your right that should have made the decree not 70 weeks, but in excess of 350 weeks to---
-to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

If Israel didnt repent while Jesus was standing right their in front of them, they wont change even if someone was to come to them risen from the dead.

Jeff,
We should not underestimate the power of God.

jeffweeder
Nov 7th 2007, 11:24 AM
We shouldnt underestimate his word either.
Can you imagine God saying , woops sorry , I meant 350 weeks +:rolleyes:

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 12:35 PM
We shouldnt underestimate his word either.
Can you imagine God saying , woops sorry , I meant 350 weeks +:rolleyes:

That is not what God says. He says 490 year for their transgressions to be finished to make an end of Israel's sins to make atonement for Israel's iniquity to bring in an everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision to anoint the most holy. But because Israel has not repented they are still in rebellion against God when they repent then the 490yrs can be fullfilled. That 490th year will start at the beginning of the tibulation. Rev 6:1 when the first seal is opened and they start sacrificing to their God once more.

Just because God said in Isaiah that a child would be given and the goverment will be upon his shoulders, didn't mean it would happen straight away. That prophecy hasn't been fullfilled either yet and that won't happen until Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords in His eternal kingdom. Then His enemy will be made His footstool.:pp:amen:

ShirleyFord
Nov 7th 2007, 01:01 PM
No. But we will go it your way.
Okay 70 weeks were determined for Israel
1. To finish transgressions
2. To make an end to sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy.
6. To anoint the most Holy place.

Has Israels transgressions finished. No
Has there been an end to sin. No
Has reconciliation for Israel's sin been done. No. because they have not repented.
Is there an everlasting righteousness. No. Christ's kingdom has not been handed over to Him yet.
Has prophecy and vision been sealed up. No. We are still using them to this day.
Has Christ anointed the most Holy place. No this won't happen until His appearance at His second coming.

Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled in Israel’s king – Christ Jesus, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy”


It is these six things alone that are clearly and deliberately predicted (in Daniel 9) to occur within the 70 weeks – thus “seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to…”

All these predictions were perfectly fulfilled in the person of Christ and in His wonderful earthly ministry. He spent 3 ½ years fulfilling every expectation that the Father demanded, from His arrival on the public scene (and His heavenly vindication from the Father after He was baptised) to His atoning death and His victorious resurrection for the grave. All of these predictions have been met in one man – the man Christ Jesus.


THE MOST HOLY WAS TO BE ANOINTED.

(a) Who is “the most holy”?

Luke 1:34-35 records of Jesus, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

Mark 1:23-25 says of Jesus, “And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.”

I John 2:20 says of Jesus, “But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.”

Peter declared of Jesus on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:27, “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Peter declared of Jesus to the unbelieving Jews, in Acts 3:14, “ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.”

Revelation 3:7 says of Christ, “to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

In Revelation 6:10 the Lord is described in similar terms, “And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

(b) When was the most holy to be anointed?

The anointing of Messiah ushered in the commencement of His earthly ministry and saw the beginning of the 70th week. When Jesus appeared on the scene, John cried: "Behold the Lamb of God." From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah was to be 483 years. When this time was fulfilled, those who knew this prophecy were expecting the appearance of the Messiah, that is, the Christ (Christ being the Greek form of the Hebrew word Messiah). Thus when John came baptizing, "the people were in EXPECTATION, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ or not" (Lk. 3:15). John plainly told them that he was not the Christ he was only the forerunner.

The time had now come that Jesus should be “made manifest to Israel” (John 1:29 31). He was then baptized and after He had prayed: “the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased” (Luke 3:21,22).

This was Christ’s heavenly vindication on the Son of God. He had appeared to Israel right on time! Thus Jesus, in evident reference to the time prophecy of Daniel, said, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15) and as the Messiah, the Christ, the “anointed one,” he preached the gospel.

Peter testified of this truth to the other Apostles in Acts 10:36-38, “The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all). That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

When he entered the synagogue of Nazareth, he announced: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath anointed me" (Lk. 4:18-22).

The disciples prayed to Father, whilst speaking of Christ, in Acts 4:27-28, “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

Daniel's prophecy revealed that the time period unto the Messiah would be 69 weeks (483 years). This clearly measured to the time when Jesus was baptized and anointed to begin his ministry as the Messiah, the Christ, the "Anointed One.


Shirley

ShirleyFord
Nov 7th 2007, 01:47 PM
"TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION"


I John 3:4-5 explains, “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he (Christ) was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”

Christ came to take away that awful curse that afflicted man from the Garden. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “for he (God) hath made him (Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”


As Jesus was dying, he cried: "It is finished." At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can or will ever finish transgression; it was completely and perfectly finished at Calvary.


Hebrews 9:13-15 declares, “For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”


"TO MAKE AN END OF SINS."

Jeremiah first prophesied the coming and character of the new covenant, in Jeremiah 31:31-33, saying, “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Jeremiah continues in the next verse, saying, “And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more” (Jeremiah 31:34).

The writer of the Hebrews addresses this passage directly, quoting it and applying it to Christ and His atoning work at Calvary. The animal sacrifices were done away forever. Hebrews 10:4-12 explains, “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”


Hebrews 7:19-22 declares, “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.”

Hebrews 8:6-8 says, of Christ and His vicarious atonement, “now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry (than those exercised by the Old Testament priests with their imperfect sacrifices), by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant.” The writer of the Hebrews then quotes our opening passage in Jeremiah 31, thus demonstrating its actual fulfilment.

Hebrews 8:13 continues, “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” .

Hebrews 10:10-12 significantly continues, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ‘once for all’ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14-20 then affirms, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”

Hebrews 10:26 says, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”


Mark 15:37 says, “Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God."


Hebrews 7:26-27 says, “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:11-14 says, “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Hebrews 9:24-28 continues, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment : so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

Romans 6:9-10 says, “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.”


"TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY."

Micah 7:19 predicted of Christ: “He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

This momentous transaction was undoubtedly fully secured at the Cross in Christ’s one all-sufficient sacrifice. Hebrews 10:12-16 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God … This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”

Hebrews 8:12 also says, “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

Hebrews 2:17 says, “Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”

Romans 5:8-10 says, “God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

Ephesians 2:13-16 says, “in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.”

Colossians 1:20-22 says, “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 says, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new and all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”


''TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS."

2 Corinthians 5:21 provides the answer, saying, “for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”


Was that righteousness “everlasting” as predicted or temporal?

2 Corinthians 9:9 addresses our query, saying, “As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”


Likewise, Hebrews 1:8-9 says, “unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”


2 Corinthians 5:21 says, of God’s people – period (including those of Daniel’s day), “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Romans 4:20-24 declares, talking about Abraham the father of the faith, “He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.”

This righteousness which comes from God through Christ is appropriated by grace through faith. Romans 3:22 declares, “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe.”

The righteousness the believer has is not his own it is imputed (or put into us) of the Lord. Christ is our righteousness. Romans 5:21 says, “as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” This “imputed” righteousness is also expressly of an “eternal” nature.

I John 3:7 says, “let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

It was Calvary however that fully realized the imputation of eternal righteousness into the child of God. 1 Peter 2:24 says, “who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”




"TO SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY"

Paul then goes on to tell these Jews what Israel did with their king, in Acts 13:27-30, saying, “For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. But God raised him from the dead.”

Paul then enlarges and explains, “And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise (the actual act of him being raised from the dead), I will give you the sure mercies of David” (vv 32-34).

The use of the metaphor "to seal" is derived from the ancient custom of attaching a seal to a document to show that it was genuine (See 1 Kings 21:8; Jer. 32:10, 11; cf. John 6:27; 1 Cor. 9:2). Christ "sealed" Old Testament prophecy by fulfilling what was written of him.

Repeatedly we read concerning him: "... that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets."

1 Peter 1:7-12 says, speaking to the New Testament saints about our common salvation in Christ, “the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the holy ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”

Acts 3:18 says: "Those things which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer he hath so fulfilled:"

Truly Jesus fulfilled what was written in the visions and prophecies of the Old Testament concerning him, and thus he "sealed" them showed that they were genuine.

DeafPosttrib
Nov 7th 2007, 01:51 PM
Shirleyford,

Amen! Well saying!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Nov 7th 2007, 01:53 PM
Daniel 9:24-27 say nothing anything about future of the coming Antichrist and great tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 is all about Jesus Christ and Calvary.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 02:50 PM
Shirley,

AMEN!




ttyl,

janet

Cyberseeker
Nov 7th 2007, 07:59 PM
(slightly off topic)

Jeff, is that ridiculous looking bird an Aussie? If so, you are not allowed to laugh at us Kiwis again. :lol:

jeffweeder
Nov 8th 2007, 10:42 AM
Jeff, is that ridiculous looking bird an Aussie? If so, you are not allowed to laugh at us Kiwis again.

hahahahe.
I'm really not sure, Looks like a species of toucan...aussies usually walk around with two cans---druken mob they are.:rolleyes:

Isnt it magnif---I have a wierd lizard to show you all soon......looks out of this world...really.


Shirley,

AMEN!


Surely AMEN...:D

John146
Nov 8th 2007, 05:52 PM
What we must realize is that the 70 weeks have been broken up.
Daniel 9:25
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

So we find here in Daniel 9:25 there are two lots of weeks which add up to 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:26
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Okay lets have a look at the weeks.
Seven sevens 49 years- 445BC-396BC
(From Artaxerxes decree to the arrival of Nehemiah and the covenant renewal celebration at Jerusalem)

sixtytwo sevens 434 years- 396BC-32AD
(From the dedication of the second temple to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ)

one seven 7 years- Unfullfilled

Israel will enter into an agreement with the future little horn, who will break that agreement in the middle of it and set himself up in the temple and cease all sacrifices. He will set a statue up of himself and cause all to worship it.

Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The 62-week and 7-week periods were broken up and yet they were still consecutive. In other words the 62 weeks (of years) immediately followed the 7 weeks. So, what rational reason do you have for putting the 70th week thousands of years later? That isn't consistent with the passage as a whole.

Allegra
Nov 8th 2007, 06:31 PM
That is not what God says. He says 490 year for their transgressions to be finished to make an end of Israel's sins to make atonement for Israel's iniquity to bring in an everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision to anoint the most holy. But because Israel has not repented they are still in rebellion against God when they repent then the 490yrs can be fullfilled. That 490th year will start at the beginning of the tibulation. Rev 6:1 when the first seal is opened and they start sacrificing to their God once more.

Just because God said in Isaiah that a child would be given and the goverment will be upon his shoulders, didn't mean it would happen straight away. That prophecy hasn't been fullfilled either yet and that won't happen until Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords in His eternal kingdom. Then His enemy will be made His footstool.:pp:amen:
This prophecy is not future. It has already been fulfilled.
Daniel 9
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV)
He confirms THE covenant with many.
This is the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah, the same book Daniel was reading before the vision.

In the midst of the week, He causes THE sacrifice and THE oblation to cease.
He did not cause all of the sacrifices to cease, only one specific one.
That is the sacrifice for atonement at Yom Kippur, the day of atonement.
This was ended during the middle of the last week by the death of Jesus on the cross.

Because of the overspreading of abominations, He shall make it desolate.
This is talking about the continuance of idol worship, and God's reaction to it.
God will make the land desolate by destroying the Temple and exiling the children of Israel.
That did happen.

The desolation lasts until the consummation, which means it lasts until the end.
That determined will be poured out on the desolate.
God's wrath was poured out on the land.

Also, the reference to Isaiah 9: Isaiah prophesied of the Messiah, to the people, the promise of redemption. This was around 700BC!
This prophecy has also been fulfilled.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


I hope this helps. I used the KJV bc it's the older version of the text.

John146
Nov 8th 2007, 10:10 PM
No. But we will go it your way.
Okay 70 weeks were determined for Israel
1. To finish transgressions
2. To make an end to sins
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy.
6. To anoint the most Holy place.

Has Israels transgressions finished. No
Has there been an end to sin. No
Has reconciliation for Israel's sin been done. No. because they have not repented.
Is there an everlasting righteousness. No. Christ's kingdom has not been handed over to Him yet.
Has prophecy and vision been sealed up. No. We are still using them to this day.
Has Christ anointed the most Holy place. No this won't happen until His appearance at His second coming.

I thought these had been fullfilled at His first coming and dying on the cross for the sin's of the world. But I was wrong they have not been fullfilled not one.

So, when do you think those things will be fulfilled?

DIZZY
Nov 9th 2007, 12:41 PM
So, when do you think those things will be fulfilled?

When Israel repents only then can righteousness be imputed to them.

We know as Christians that Christ died on the cross for our sins. But Israel has not come to the full knowledge of who Christ was therefore the righteousness that has been promised to them, the end that Christ as made for their sins, the atonement for their iniquities, the everlasting righteous kkingdom can not happen until they turn to their Messiah and repent.

As sinners before we can receive any of the promises God has made to us through His Son what do we have to do? Just because He died on the cross for this filthy rotten sinner doesn't mean I'll receive that promise.
I have to ask God to forgive my sins first, I have to repent and except the gift He gave me through His Son before I can receive the gift.

Israel has not turned to their Messiah in repentance therefore God has not given them their land and He has not forgiven them their iniquities.

Yes the Messiah came and died but it meant nothing to Israel. We have forgiveness we have the everlasting righteousness, we have atonement for our iniquities, But at this point in time Israel has nothing but pain and suffering because they rejected their Messiah.

DeafPosttrib
Nov 9th 2007, 09:08 PM
Dizzy,

Romans 11:24-26 already fulfilled, that Christ came to earth to saved Israel by make new covenant on the cross. Christ already forgived all their sins. First Jews were saved, then Gentiles saved. God removed Jews from tree, because of their unbelief. But, the remain Jews stay on tree, because of their belief. God already grafted Gentiles upon the tree join with believing Jews became one. SO, all Israel be saved already fulfilled at Calvary 2000 years ago.

Same with Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary, that Christ made a new covenant with many through His blood.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 10:33 AM
hahahahe.
I'm really not sure, Looks like a species of toucan...aussies usually walk around with two cans---druken mob they are.:rolleyes:

Isnt it magnif---I have a wierd lizard to show you all soon......looks out of this world...really.




Surely AMEN...:D


One should stop looking in the mirror if you are not happy with what you look like or what you see reflecting back at you. It doesn't matter God loves you no matter what you look like. P.S The silly looking bird doesn't drink anything other than water. You should know that as christians.:lol:

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 10:38 AM
Dizzy,

Romans 11:24-26 already fulfilled, that Christ came to earth to saved Israel by make new covenant on the cross. Christ already forgived all their sins. First Jews were saved, then Gentiles saved. God removed Jews from tree, because of their unbelief. But, the remain Jews stay on tree, because of their belief. God already grafted Gentiles upon the tree join with believing Jews became one. SO, all Israel be saved already fulfilled at Calvary 2000 years ago.

Same with Daniel 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary, that Christ made a new covenant with many through His blood.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA DON'T THINK SO REX:thumbsdn:

jewel4Christ
Nov 10th 2007, 02:28 PM
:o

peaceandlove,

janet

John146
Nov 15th 2007, 08:27 PM
When Israel repents only then can righteousness be imputed to them.

We know as Christians that Christ died on the cross for our sins. But Israel has not come to the full knowledge of who Christ was therefore the righteousness that has been promised to them, the end that Christ as made for their sins, the atonement for their iniquities, the everlasting righteous kkingdom can not happen until they turn to their Messiah and repent.

Some Israelites have come to the full knowledge of Christ. The gospel first went out to the Jews and thousands were saved. And many have been saved ever since. You act as though their salvation has been postponed. No. Any Jew can be saved at any time if they repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ.



As sinners before we can receive any of the promises God has made to us through His Son what do we have to do? Just because He died on the cross for this filthy rotten sinner doesn't mean I'll receive that promise.
I have to ask God to forgive my sins first, I have to repent and except the gift He gave me through His Son before I can receive the gift.It's no different for someone who lives in Israel today.



Israel has not turned to their Messiah in repentance therefore God has not given them their land and He has not forgiven them their iniquities.

Yes the Messiah came and died but it meant nothing to Israel. We have forgiveness we have the everlasting righteousness, we have atonement for our iniquities, But at this point in time Israel has nothing but pain and suffering because they rejected their Messiah.Salvation does not come on a national basis, but rather an individual basis. Christ died for Jew and Gentile alike. There is no difference. Anyone, Jew or Gentile, can come to Christ at any time. All of the following passages show that salvation has been open to Jew and Gentile for a long time. You differentiate between salvation for Israel and salvation for the rest of us, but Scripture does not:

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:7-9

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:28-29

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. - Romans 1:16

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12-13

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. - Colossians 3:11

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Cor 12:13

jeffweeder
Dec 10th 2007, 01:11 AM
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

How did Messiah accomplish all this ?
Ans;
Through his death and ressurection.
How can it not be finished? It was 70 weeks for all of those points, not just some.




In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes


"So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary.
18 "O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.
19 "O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name."

Daniel had no problem believing that the 70 years were drawing to a close, so he prayed this awesome prayer and got an answer while he was still on his knees.

When Jesus said "It is finished" what did he mean?

Firstfruits
Dec 10th 2007, 02:30 PM
[quote=jeffweeder;1416016]70 WEEKS and Jesus would bring in all this.?

Jesus did not fail to accomplish this.
He has won and is seated at Gods right hand.
This means the 70 weeks must be over . :hmm:
If there is a large gap between the 69 and 70th week, then the decree should be longer than 70 weeks..

I think it is 70 weeks unbroken, so here is my 2 cents worth.

25 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Da 9:25'))

so 69 weeks pass without a hitch and Jesus arrives in the 70th week on time.
The people at the time of John the Baptist, were in expectation of the fullfillment of the prophecy,



Must of been the prophets who made them aware, especially Dan 9

cont'


After the 69 week, which makes it the 70 week ,he was killed and rome came in and desolated.



The HE that makes a FIRM cov for the last week appears to be Jesus-- With the lords supper, (the firmest of covs) -----the only covenant we know of, if that was indeed the 70th week... ,and the middle of the 70 week ---(3 1/2 year ministry) saw him die and put an end to sacrifice and sin offerings.

The latter 1/2 of the week is attributed to the continueing of the work by the disciples--(to the Jew first ministry that Jesus began)

This ends their 70 weeks, with the conversion of cornelius--the first Gentile, when the mission went to all the people.



The Gospel must be preached to all tongues and then the end will come.
The fullness of the gentiles will come in.[/quot

Have the prophecy of Daniel been fulfilled, in order for the time of the end to come?

Dan 11:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Dan 11:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Dan 8:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Dan 8:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

What is the time of the end?

Cyberseeker
Dec 10th 2007, 03:08 PM
How did Messiah accomplish all this ?
Ans;
Through his death and ressurection.
How can it not be finished? It was 70 weeks for all of those points, not just some.

I totally agree.

Jollyrogers
Dec 10th 2007, 03:23 PM
At least the 70 weeks are certain....:P

There were 3 decrees given by Persian Kings,regarding Jerusalem.
536BC
457BC...:pp
444BC

457BC, which counting 69 weeks=483 yrs, we arrive at 26AD.
This was Jesus baptism and the start of his Messianic mission. which lasted 31/2 years in what had to be the final week.



Actually there are 4 decree's

1. First decree issued by Cyrus in 539 B.C. - the rebuilding of the temple but not the city. Cyrus son stopped work on the temple after his death
( Ezra 1:1-4)

2. Second decree issued by Darius in 519 B.C. - The temple was finished in the 6th year of his reign but the city was left untouched. (Ezra 5:3-7, Ezra 6:1-10 emphasis on v8)


3. Third Decree, Issued to Ezra from Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (see Ezra 7:11 - 16) Restart saccrifice and buy up supplies for the temple. It allowed the Jews to return the articles stolen by Nebbecanessor. It also released preist From taxes. Nothing about restoring the city.

4. Fourth decree issued by Artaxerxes on March 5 of 444 B.C. - This is the decree that allowed the jews to finally rebuild the city & starts the prophetic clock towards the countdown of messiah showing up. This decree is the one mentioned in Nehemiah 2.

The 4th is the one that specifies the rebuilding of the city, which fulfills the requirements for the starting of the 70 weeks. This one was dated at 445 B.C. when Sir Robert Anderson wrote "The Coming Prince". Since then archeological evidence suggest that the 20 year of the kings reign started in December 445/January 444 B.C. , Therefore the month of Nisan in the 20th year of his reign would of been 444 B.C.

Cyberseeker
Dec 10th 2007, 03:38 PM
3. Third Decree, Issued to Ezra from Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (see Ezra 7:11 - 16) Restart saccrifice and buy up supplies for the temple. It allowed the Jews to return the articles stolen by Nebbecanessor. It also released preist From taxes. Nothing about restoring the city.



The most important part of the BC457 decree should not be trivialized. The Jews got the right of autonomy (self-government) through this decree, with judges and magistrates to enforce their laws. Specific mention of rebuilding was not necessary because it would obviously have been allowed.

Jollyrogers
Dec 10th 2007, 04:20 PM
My first question then is why do we find Nehemiah depressed over the state of his city 13 years later to which a 4th decree was issued instructing them to rebuild the city with the walls. In verse 2:17-19 Nehemiah gave his report of the walls and the desolations in the city. He then started the rebuilding of the city under the kings authority. All other decrees dealt with the temple. Daniel specifically mentions a decree to rebuild the city with its streets and walls.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Cyberseeker
Dec 10th 2007, 04:41 PM
It is true that the walls remained in a bad state until Nehemiah but that does not alter the fact that Artexerxes BC 457 decree gave jurisdiction to the Jews to govern there own affairs. This was much more than the trivial spin put on it by dispensationalists in order to bolster the BC 444 start date theory.

JesusisGod
Dec 10th 2007, 07:08 PM
Hi Firstfriuts.

The HE that makes a FIRM cov for the last week appears to be Jesus-- With the lords supper, (the firmest of covs) -----the only covenant we know of, if that was indeed the 70th week... ,and the middle of the 70 week ---(3 1/2 year ministry) saw him die and put an end to sacrifice and sin offerings.
Daniel 9:27 says, "He will confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."

People seem to be identifying the "he" that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease as Jesus, but Daniel 8:11 and 11:31 say the one who takes away the sacrifice of the temple is the little horn.

Cyberseeker
Dec 10th 2007, 07:52 PM
(deleted by Cyberseeker)

Romulus
Dec 12th 2007, 03:47 PM
Actually there are 4 decree's

1. First decree issued by Cyrus in 539 B.C. - the rebuilding of the temple but not the city. Cyrus son stopped work on the temple after his death
( Ezra 1:1-4)



I agree that the prophecy is fulfilled in Christ but I must disagree on the starting point. If you were living in the time of Daniel and the angel said to you from the decree to restore Jerusalem would be the starting point, I don't believe there is any reason not to assume the first decree to be the one. Also, the city was rebuilt. Did the people go there and simply restore the temple and not built the city again, where did they live? There is evidence that buildings and homes were built in the time of the restoration by Cyrus i.e.......the city.

Anyhow we now arrive at the real problem, the date of Cyrus's decree. History states that Cyrus made the decree in 539 b.c. which is too early to lead to Christ. Is there then any warrant other then that Cyrus made a decree first to begin the 70 weeks at his decree? I believe there is a major warrant to do so, and here it is:

Isaiah 44

27That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45

1Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Isaiah was given the prophecy hundreds of years before Cyrus existed. Scripture was clear that Cyrus was to make this decree. Here comes a lesson I learned early on in studying the Bible. Whenever there comes a discrepancy between Bible and history, the Bible wins out. Isaiah prophecied Cyrus was to issue the decree and Daniel was told the decree was the starting point but now we have the date of 539 b.c. which is too early to lead to Christ. For the answer to this discrepancy in history, not the Bible is to understand that all scholars and historians who come up with this date are all looking at one source for this information, including our friend Sir Robert Anderson.....Ptolemy's cannon of persian kings. All are quoting his date for Cyrus's decree which according to scripture is incorrect and rightly so, Ptolemy himself was not sure of the exact reign of the persian kings since there was much historical record that was lost. All scholars who look at Ptolemy already have the wrong starting point.

The only way to find the correct date in this case is to look at Bible Chronology(the study of dates using scripture.) I studied Martin Anstay's "The Romance of Bible Chronology" while studying Philip Mauro's interpretation of the 70 weeks. It gives the date that most scholars today already have, 457 b.c. but has the correct decree, the first which now leads to 26 A.D. (483 years, 69 weeks) which was arguably the date of Jesus's baptism.

Scripture I believe is clear, and history must follow the Bible. Regardless of the starting point, Christ fulfilled this wonderful prophecy in the exact time period given to Daniel and all was accomplished. :)

Allegra
Dec 13th 2007, 04:49 AM
Hi Firstfriuts.

Daniel 9:27 says, "He will confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."

People seem to be identifying the "he" that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease as Jesus, but Daniel 8:11 and 11:31 say the one who takes away the sacrifice of the temple is the little horn.
Daniel 8 & 11 you mentioned, speak about Antioch Epiphanes.
Daniel 9, 7, some of 2, some of 10, & of course 12 speak of the end-times for his people.
I can go into this in depth with you tomorrow if you would like.

JesusisGod
Dec 13th 2007, 07:32 AM
Hi Allegra.
That would be great.

third hero
Dec 13th 2007, 06:29 PM
How did Messiah accomplish all this ?
Ans;
Through his death and ressurection.
How can it not be finished? It was 70 weeks for all of those points, not just some.

Jerusalem is sinning against God right now, with the Dome of the Rokc standing there on the temple mount, the rabbis trying to rebuild the temple, the rabbis resurrecting the sacrificial system that Jesus negated Himself, and the fact that the Sanhedrin, the group responsible for Our Lord's death, is active today. And You say that...

Jerusalem has finished her transgressions?

The vast majority of Israelites in Jerusalem today actively reject Lord Jesus, and you say that....

Everlasting righteousness is brought in to Jerusalem?


I did mention that there are many in Jerusalem, of the people of Daniel, who actively reject Lord Jesus as their savior, and you say....

God has made reconciliation with them for their iniquities?

Funny, I don't see it, and neither does anyone else. You are aware that Jerusalem is around today, and that we can see with our own eyeballs whether or not the things mentioned concerning the Israelites and their holy city has been fulfilled or not, right?



Daniel had no problem believing that the 70 years were drawing to a close, so he prayed this awesome prayer and got an answer while he was still on his knees.

When Jesus said "It is finished" what did he mean?

What did John the Baptist say when he seen Jesus walking towards him? What was the purpose of the Lamb of God coming to earth in the first place? What was finished?

SIN.

Jesus's death put an end to sin, because now, through the redemptive blood of the Lamb, we are forgiven of all iniquity, and freed from the chains to sin and Satan.

That was what was finished. And indeed, it still is finished.

Allegra
Dec 13th 2007, 08:34 PM
Hi Firstfriuts.

Daniel 9:27 says, "He will confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."

People seem to be identifying the "he" that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease as Jesus, but Daniel 8:11 and 11:31 say the one who takes away the sacrifice of the temple is the little horn.
Ok, where to start?
I have to comment on the posts of the 70 weeks that came after yesterday first.
The prophecy of the 70 weeks required Daniel's people(the Jews)and for your holy city (Jerusalem) "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy."
Now, some want to say that this prophecy wasn't fulfilled. But is that God's fault if most of Israel did not do this according to the time frame given?
And to find out if it was fulfilled we must continue reading the decree.
At the end of the 31/2 years (of the 7 yr.week) in which He taught the New Covenant (the gospel about the kingdom) He would put an end to the sacrifice by offerring up Himself as full payment fo man's sin guilt.
Beginning with Adam & Eve (e.g. the skins used to cover their nakedness) & throughout the Old Testament, the sacrifices were symbolic of the Coming One whose sacrificial death would redeem man from condemnation & separation from God's fellowship, & cover their sins.
"And on the wings of abominations will come one who makes desolate even until a complete destruction."
Jesus said, "Do not think I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (destruction)
Therefore, we see the balance of the last week beginning when the Holy Spirit is poured out on the 12, & the teaching of Christ goes forth.
A question may be asked at this point: what was the main subject of His teaching, since He stated that He came to bring a sword, or destruction?
The fair meaning is that all the visions of Daniel would here begin to be fulfilled respecting the end time of his people. We find all the epistles filled with the passing of Israel & the established divine religion of Christ, Christianity, surpassing Judaism as the universal religion.
From the time the apostles began to teach, they went 1st & always to the Jew, relating the abolishment of Judaism in favor of Christianity.
On the wings of this testimony of the Holy Spirit the desolation began, a desolation that continued on the wings of abomination until Jerusalem & the temple became a complete destruction.
This confirmed the kingdom of Christ in just the same way that the resurrection confirmed Christ as being the Son of God. (Romans 1:4)

Now the destruction itself. Gabriel tells Daniel it will be a complete destruction, Dan.9:27; Zechariah tells us Christ will return in that destruction & gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. (Zech. 14:1-4) Malachi spoke of this as God preparing a day when He would burn the chaff & save the righteous, when they would skip about the stall as fat calves. (Mal.4:2)
Joel spoke of the church age (see Joel 2:31)
Jesus said he would return to reward the wicked with revenge (Matt. 16:27-28) & again in Matt 23: 34-39); 24:29-30;26:64; Luke 21:20-32.
Matthew10:23 almost sets the date...
Daniel sees this event occuring during the period of the 11th horn, the time the Ancient of Days would come in judgment, (Dan 7:21-22)
The saints would be given into the hands of the horn that caused Daniel so mush concern, the 11th horn. "And they will be given into his hands for a time, times, and a half time." (Feb 67-Sept 70AD) by Vespasian. This was the most destructive part. The Jewish rebellion began a few years before this.

John declared in Rev 1:1-3 that the things written in the Book were at hand, then in the process of being fulfilled. Then he declares in 1:9," I John your brother in tribulation, and in the kingdom"
Both scripture & history verify a tribulation for the Jewish people during that time period.
On the wings of this tribulation came the one who was to make the final destruction to the nation of Israel. The vision of Daniel finds its fulfillment in this period.(Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21)

It is my opinion that any future predictions of Israel in particular with regards to a vast repentance, it not shown in the Bible.
We can only pray for all to come into repentance.

jeffweeder, if you still would like to discuss Dan. 8 & 11 (the little horn)
I'll can show you how he's different from the 11th horn in chapter 7.

Peace,
Allegra

jeffweeder
Dec 14th 2007, 12:54 AM
Jesus's death put an end to sin, because now, through the redemptive blood of the Lamb, we are forgiven of all iniquity, and freed from the chains to sin and Satan.

That was what was finished. And indeed, it still is finished.

I agree of course.
this is part of the decree-;


]"Seventy weeks[/B] have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

So you are saying that the rest ( in blue ) of these have a future fulfillment ?
Yet scripture tells you that its 70 weeks for all of them.
I feel for all of these to be fulfilled needs the death and ressurection of Christ.

Cyberseeker
Dec 14th 2007, 02:11 AM
Right on Jeff. The '70 weeks' prophecy is a package deal. You cannot pick and choose and apply some bits to his first coming and other bits to his second coming. The entire prophecy is about the atonement!

Allegra
Dec 14th 2007, 02:22 AM
Right on Jeff. The '70 weeks' prophecy is a package deal. You cannot pick and choose and apply some bits to his first coming and other bits to his second coming. The entire prophecy is about the atonement!
That's why I disagree with your "future" theory.
Because evidence shows it would be well past the 490 years!

Oh, I meant JesusisGod in my last post.
OK, he will let me know or not.

JesusisGod
Dec 14th 2007, 09:00 PM
The prophecy of the 70 weeks required Daniel's people(the Jews)and for your holy city (Jerusalem) "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy."
Now, some want to say that this prophecy wasn't fulfilled. But is that God's fault if most of Israel did not do this according to the time frame given?
No, it woulldn't be Gods fault, but if most of Israel didn't do this in what we think time frame given is, then our understanding of the time frame given is wrong.


And to find out if it was fulfilled we must continue reading the decree.
At the end of the 31/2 years (of the 7 yr.week) in which He taught the New Covenant (the gospel about the kingdom) He would put an end to the sacrifice by offerring up Himself as full payment fo man's sin guilt.
You are referring here to Da.9:27 and it makes sense to think of Jesus' sacrifice that way. The problem is Da.9:26 mentions both the Messiah and a "prince" who destroys the city and this makes it unclear if Da.9:27 is taking about the Messiah or the prince who destroys the city. I would like to point out here that Daniel chapters 8,11 and 12 all mention a prince who takes away the temple sacrifice and destroys Gods people.


Beginning with Adam & Eve (e.g. the skins used to cover their nakedness) & throughout the Old Testament, the sacrifices were symbolic of the Coming One whose sacrificial death would redeem man from condemnation & separation from God's fellowship, & cover their sins.
I understand this.


"And on the wings of abominations will come one who makes desolate even until a complete destruction."
Jesus said, "Do not think I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (destruction)

I don't think Jesus meant a sword of destruction. I think He meant a sword of division.


Therefore, we see the balance of the last week beginning when the Holy Spirit is poured out on the 12, & the teaching of Christ goes forth.
A question may be asked at this point: what was the main subject of His teaching, since He stated that He came to bring a sword, or destruction?
The fair meaning is that all the visions of Daniel would here begin to be fulfilled respecting the end time of his people. We find all the epistles filled with the passing of Israel & the established divine religion of Christ, Christianity, surpassing Judaism as the universal religion.
I don't see the passing of Israel taught in the epistles. I believe what they taught was that through Jesus, non-Jews were grafted into Israel.


From the time the apostles began to teach, they went 1st & always to the Jew, relating the abolishment of Judaism in favor of Christianity.
I think what the Apostles taught was the true meaning of the Torah, not its abolishment. The problem with Judaism is that the Rabbis distorted what Moses said and Jesus corrected their misinterpretations.


On the wings of this testimony of the Holy Spirit the desolation began, a desolation that continued on the wings of abomination until Jerusalem & the temple became a complete destruction.
This confirmed the kingdom of Christ in just the same way that the resurrection confirmed Christ as being the Son of God. (Romans 1:4)

Now the destruction itself. Gabriel tells Daniel it will be a complete destruction, Dan.9:27; Zechariah tells us Christ will return in that destruction & gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. (Zech. 14:1-4) Malachi spoke of this as God preparing a day when He would burn the chaff & save the righteous, when they would skip about the stall as fat calves. (Mal.4:2)
Joel spoke of the church age (see Joel 2:31)
Jesus said he would return to reward the wicked with revenge (Matt. 16:27-28) & again in Matt 23: 34-39); 24:29-30;26:64; Luke 21:20-32.
Matthew10:23 almost sets the date...
Daniel sees this event occuring during the period of the 11th horn, the time the Ancient of Days would come in judgment, (Dan 7:21-22)
The saints would be given into the hands of the horn that caused Daniel so mush concern, the 11th horn. "And they will be given into his hands for a time, times, and a half time." (Feb 67-Sept 70AD) by Vespasian. This was the most destructive part. The Jewish rebellion began a few years before this.
If you think the destruction foretold by Daniel includes a 70AD date, then I assume you don't believe the 70 weeks are consecutive. Is that right?


John declared in Rev 1:1-3 that the things written in the Book were at hand, then in the process of being fulfilled. Then he declares in 1:9," I John your brother in tribulation, and in the kingdom"
Both scripture & history verify a tribulation for the Jewish people during that time period.
On the wings of this tribulation came the one who was to make the final destruction to the nation of Israel. The vision of Daniel finds its fulfillment in this period.(Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21)
In Mt.24:21, Jesus said the suffering of those days would be unparalled from the from the beginning of the world until its end. I think you're making a mistake attributing those words to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Allegra
Dec 14th 2007, 10:55 PM
[quote]No, it woulldn't be Gods fault, but if most of Israel didn't do this in what we think time frame given is, then our understanding of the time frame given is wrong. My understanding of that time-frame isn't wrong.
We must praise God for the Jews in Jerusalem that did accept Christ. On His triumphal entry into Jerusalem; In Acts- where 3,000 were added to their number that day, & of course the Apostles & disciples (even though Luke was a Macedonian-consider the others.)


You are referring here to Da.9:27 and it makes sense to think of Jesus' sacrifice that way. The problem is Da.9:26 mentions both the Messiah and a "prince" who destroys the city and this makes it unclear if Da.9:27 is taking about the Messiah or the prince who destroys the city. I would like to point out here that Daniel chapters 8,11 and 12 all mention a prince who takes away the temple sacrifice and destroys Gods people.Well, one definitely has to use the KJV bc it is taken from the Textus Receptus. Actually the best is the Septuagint. I have posted that here somewhere. I will try to find it. It clears up vs 27 nicely.
The Messiah the Prince in vs 25 is capitalized.
vs 26-"The people of the prince to come" Can be understood this way:
First, the saints had nothing to do with this. Secondly, this prince is either the Roman ruler to come at the time, or this prince is the prince of this world, Satan. Those are the implications. Those are the only choices imo for that verse.
Verse 27 refers back to the Messiah,"He will make a firm covenant with many for one week" Like I said, the Septuagint has the best & probably the most accurate wording in it for this verse.

I don't think Jesus meant a sword of destruction. I think He meant a sword of division.Well, He was addressing the 12. He told them they would not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man *****. He was talking mainly about the Jews. Their spiritual condition towards the approaching destruction testifies & interprets this prediction conclusively.
Yes, I know Jesus is our peace. He told in John, "My peace I leave with you" But one has to consider the context of all Matthew 10 to grasp why He said that.



I don't see the passing of Israel taught in the epistles. I believe what they taught was that through Jesus, non-Jews were grafted into Israel.


I think what the Apostles taught was the true meaning of the Torah, not its abolishment. The problem with Judaism is that the Rabbis distorted what Moses said and Jesus corrected their misinterpretations. OK. You misunderstand. Yes, Paul taught about the grafting in we had, but that's not all he taught.
The Psalmist & Isaiah said that Israel killed the prophets God sent to her(Neh9), & would kill the LOrd(Psalms16;Isaiah53). Daniel foretold the last days total destruction of the land of Israel(Daniel 12:7) Was Daniel anti-Semitic? Isaiah prophesied that Israel would be destroyed & God would create a new people with a new name(Isa.65-66) Was Isaiah anti-Semitic?
Zechariah foretold the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed & 2/3 of the people destroyed(Zech.13-14) Same question. Have you never heard of covenant theology?:o Jeremiah & Malachi prophesied that the time was coming when the temple, the Ark, & the city of Jerusalem would no longer be theologically significant.(Jer.3:14; Malachi 1:12)
Peter pointed his finger at the temple crowd & said they had killed the "Prince of Life"(Acts3:15) Peter was a Jewish man, BUT he was a Christian.
This is the differnce.
Paul (probably has the most writing of all of them dealing with this subject)
Too much to go into now.
Paul affirmed his love for his brethren, i.e. Israel according to the flesh, the Jews, & said, "I am a Jew from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city!"(Acts 21:39) Yet he goes on to distinguish Israel of the flesh & spiritual Israel. (See 1Thess., Romans, etc.)
You must consider that Jerusalem was Mystery Babylon in Revelation.


If you think the destruction foretold by Daniel includes a 70AD date, then I assume you don't believe the 70 weeks are consecutive. Is that right?Well, I believe the last week was consecutive.



In Mt.24:21, Jesus said the suffering of those days would be unparalled from the from the beginning of the world until its end. I think you're making a mistake attributing those words to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.No. Again where was Jesus speaking from & who was His audience? I mean come on now, "Pray your flight is not on the Sabbath?"
And the Flood was very quick. The Great Tribulation had alot more suffering for the period of time it was.
Gotta make the dinner.
cya later, my friend!

JesusisGod
Dec 15th 2007, 04:36 AM
Have you never heard of covenant theology?:o
Yes, and the new covenant was made between God and Israel.
Je.31:33 This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel...

Furthermore, God says that as long as the sun, moon and stars remain, Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him forever. Je.31:35-36

The Apostles thought of themselves as Jews belonging to the nation of Israel. Do me one favor. Look at Ephesians 1. From vss 3-12, Paul talks about how God has blessed us and all the blessings we have in Jesus. Then in vs.13 he says, "In whom ye also....." The we and us Paul is referring to are the Jews. By ye, he means the gentiles. Paul thought of himself as a Jew and goes on to teach these gentiles in ch.2 that through Jesus, ye gentiles have been made one with us Jews.


Well, I believe the last week was consecutive.
You can't have it both way my friend. Either you believe Daniel 9 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which would cause an interval in the 70 week prophecy, or you believe the 70 weeks are consecutive which would mean Jerusalem was destroyed 3 1/2 years after the Messiah died. Take your pick.


No. Again where was Jesus speaking from & who was His audience? I mean come on now, "Pray your flight is not on the Sabbath?"
And the Flood was very quick. The Great Tribulation had alot more suffering for the period of time it was.
There has been more far more suffering in the world since Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD than you can shake a stick at. World War 2 caused more death and suffering than any war before or since. If Jesus prophecy of a great tribulation such as the world has ever or would ever see pertained to Jerusalems demise in 70AD, World War 2 alone would make His words untrue. But what isn't looked at from His answer is part of what the Apostles asked Him.

"What will be the sign of Thy coming and the end of the world?"
Jesus response is so clear, I don't know why people ignore it. He said that immediately after the tribulation, He would come, gather His people and the world would end.

Allegra
Dec 15th 2007, 05:17 AM
You can't have it both way my friend. Either you believe Daniel 9 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which would cause an interval in the 70 week prophecy, or you believe the 70 weeks are consecutive which would mean Jerusalem was destroyed 3 1/2 years after the Messiah died. Take your pick.
I will have to respond on Jeremiah & Ephesians tomorrow. I haven't looked at Jeremiah in a month, & I'm too sleepy to read tonight.

As far as the consecutive week... It began with Jesus' baptism by John(anointing) The middle of the week was after Christ preached for 31/2 years & was crucified. The Holy Spirit through the Apostles preaching to the Jewish people fulfills the remaining 31/2 years.
Maybe you are mixing up the 3 1/2 yrs of the Great tribulation period with the teaching of the apostles. I think they are different times. I would say that the time the 2 witnesses are preaching is different bc they are in a sackcloth, which means they are giving warning to repent bc destruction will come.
God does use a 3 1/2 yr. period, or time, times, & a half time several times in the Bible. It must be related to a week prophetically- but that's all I can tell about it.


"What will be the sign of Thy coming and the end of the world?"
Jesus response is so clear, I don't know why people ignore it. He said that immediately after the tribulation, He would come, gather His people and the world would end.
First, the world in those days was quite small. The Roman empire ruled most of it, from the British Isles to the borders of India.(a little ancient history tidbit there, lol.)
And it was "the end of the age" that Jesus was talking about. It was to be the end of the Jewish dispensation. Jesus was the mediator of the new covenant.
Not the world ending.

jeffweeder
Dec 15th 2007, 06:44 AM
And it was "the end of the age" that Jesus was talking about. It was to be the end of the Jewish dispensation. .

The end of the 70 weeks, when the door swung open for them, the Angel with the sword guarding the tree of life, was removed.
But they did not, and did the unthinkable and their house was left desolate.
Jesus then spoke of the times of the Gentiles--the Age of grace--a time where every single tribe and culture would get to hear and see Jesus. I live in Australia, and the native Aborigines here only got to hear the gospel a few hundred years ago.So we are getting close, maybe we have gone past this already?, as the times of the gentiles is one day fulfilled--as far as Jerusalem is concerned.---This appears to have happened in a way, and is becoming a issue that effects us all.

I think i can see Jesus shadow being cast over the earth, as he is very close.

ShirleyFord
Dec 15th 2007, 12:18 PM
You can't have it both way my friend. Either you believe Daniel 9 speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD which would cause an interval in the 70 week prophecy, or you believe the 70 weeks are consecutive which would mean Jerusalem was destroyed 3 1/2 years after the Messiah died. Take your pick.




The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was not part of the 70 wks. prophecy of Daniel.

The Messiah of Daniel's people would come and accomplish Daniel 9:24:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

He further reveals that the things in v. 24 would be accomplished for Daniel's people when Jesus the Messiah, the Christ, came and died on the cross after the 69th week, during the 70th week - v. 26, in the midst of the 70th week when He confirmed the covenant - v. 27.

The destruction of the temple in 70 AD - vs. 26b and 27b was the judgement of God on Daniel's people for refusing the covenant that their Messiah confirmed but was not part of the 70 wks. prophecy.

So I don't see where Daniel allowed for any gaps in the 70 weeks.


Shirley

JesusisGod
Dec 15th 2007, 02:45 PM
Hi Allegra.

And it was "the end of the age" that Jesus was talking about. It was to be the end of the Jewish dispensation. Jesus was the mediator of the new covenant.
Not the world ending.
Do you think when the Apostles asked Jesus about the end, they meant the end of Jewish dispensation?

JesusisGod
Dec 15th 2007, 04:17 PM
Hi Shirley.
It seems strange to me that vs. 27 describes both Jesus and the prince who will come. I have read this verse many times and there doesn't appear to be any natural break common no matter what the language anywhere in between the description of the one who causes sacrifice to cease and the one who makes desolate. Very strange. But lets say you're interpretation is correct. My question then would be, why does God confirm an everlasting covenant with Israel for only 7 years?

Allegra
Dec 15th 2007, 05:08 PM
JesusisGod,
Here is the translation I referred to from the Septuagint.
Also, in vs.26, the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
The next sentence tells us in context that "the people of the prince to come" is something different(bc the Messiah in the previous sentence, has been cut off)

I will try to answer your questions about Jeremiah AND the Olivet Discourse. An interpretation/exegesis about the Olivet D. is HUGE, so I may have to try to summarize. To make it comprehensive, I think, time & space here wouldn't allow.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDMan64 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1454277#post1454277)
Allegra, are you saying Jesus Christ was the "he" on verse 27 of Danel 9? I think that's an inacurate interpretation of that verse given the text in verse 26, where it clearly states that "the prince that shall come" is the "he" in verse 27. Clearly this is not Christ, since his death marks the end of the first 69 weeks as stated on verse 26. So the last week is still a full week of 7 years, and it hasn't happened yet.

Could the event we see unfolding now be the beginning of that week, perhaps, but if it is that would clearly make George Bush "the prince that shall come", and that is unlikely in my opinion, though I could be wrong, maybe I'm one of the many he's managed to deceive so far, so I'll keep an eye on these events, and keep praying for the peace of Jerusalem. :pray:

You know, the people of the prince to come in vs. 26 wasn't really the deciding vs. for me to understand the prophecy. To me the prince could refer to a coming Roman ruler of the people-it didn't change the prophecy as a whole, as vs.27 was relating back to the Messiah again. I have found a more flowing interpretation of the Scripture, when searching for the precise meaning.
This quote is from Philip Mauro(1859-1957) in 1921. He was a patent lawyer, Supreme court lawyer, & author of several books. "His works remain an important contribution to the furtherance of the Lord Jesus Christ"
He wrote several books, one entitled "The Hope of Israel, What is it?" (1922) an examination of the Jewish/Dispensationalist fable of the Restoration for the nation of Israel. Another titled "The Gospel of the Kingdom" (1927) The following is an excerpt from his book " 70 Weeks and the Great Tribulation (1923)
We come now to the words "for one week" (Dan. 9:27), which have been the means of leading astray sonic who have undertaken to explain this prophecy. Manifestly those words are utterly inconsistent with the view that the covenant spoken of is the New Covenant, since that is "everlasting" (Heb. 13:20). But it is hardly conceivable that any covenant - particularly one of such importance as to have a prominent place in this prophecy -would be confirmed for such a brief term as seven years Even if we suppose, as some do (though with no proof whatever to support them), that the prophecy refers to some agreement which the supposed "prince" of the future will supposedly make with "many" Jews, permitting them to resume the long abolished sacrifices of the law, can we conceive that such a covenant would be limited to the insignificant term of seven years? In view of the difficulty presented by the words "for one week," we consulted a Hebrew scholar, asking him if there were any preposition "for" in the original text, or anything to imply it. His reply was that there is no "for" in the text, nor anything to imply it. This information removed the chief difficulty; but it left still unsettled the meaning to be given to the words "one week." That further information, however, was supplied by the same Hebrew scholar (formerly a Jewish Rabbis but now a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ), who gave us the English rendering of the Septuagint Version of Daniel 9:27. This Septuagint Version is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, made nearly three hundred years before the birth of Christ. It has a claim on our acceptance as an authoritative version, because our Lord and His apostles frequently quoted from it. Particularly do we ask attention to the fact that when our Lord, in His prophecy on Mt. Olivet, quoted from the latter part of Daniel 9:27, He used the words of the Septuagint version, namely, "the abomination of desolation" (Matt. 24:15). Therefore We have a special Warrant for following the sense of the Septuagint. We give the English translation of the entire verse as it appears in the Septuagint.
"And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drinkoffering shall be taken away; and upon the temple shall be the abomination of desolation; and at the end of the time (the age) an end shall be put to the desolation."



:)

ShirleyFord
Dec 15th 2007, 05:37 PM
Hi Shirley.
It seems strange to me that vs. 27 describes both Jesus and the prince who will come. I have read this verse many times and there doesn't appear to be any natural break common no matter what the language anywhere in between the description of the one who causes sacrifice to cease and the one who makes desolate. Very strange. But lets say you're interpretation is correct. My question then would be, why does God confirm an everlasting covenant with Israel for only 7 years?

No, v. 27 only describes only one "he". Let's look first v. 26:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Notice that it is "the people" that shall come and not the prince of the people. The people were the military of the Roman Empire that came to Jerusalem in 70 AD and destroyed the city and the temple.



27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,



Jesus confirmed the covenant that God made with Abraham.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Jesus confirmed the New Covenant during the 70th week.

Allegra
Dec 15th 2007, 08:25 PM
Yes, and the new covenant was made between God and Israel.
Je.31:33 This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel...

Furthermore, God says that as long as the sun, moon and stars remain, Israel will never cease from being a nation before Him forever. Je.31:35-36

I don't know whether it's you or the Bible version you are using(bc modern Bible versions have translations from entirely different Greek text. They present as updates of the Authorized Version KJV, but they are not from the same text. I can discuss that later)

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (King James Version)


35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I did not post from verse 31. But it is titled A NEW COVENANT.

Abraham's seed in also discussed in Galatians 3:15-29
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, Christ (Son of David), the Son of Abraham- genealogy (seed)
See Matthew 1.
Also, Zerubbabel (seed of David), (See Ezra, Haggai, Zech, Matthew 1, 1 Chronicles, & Neh) is to be noted here.

Between the Old & New Testaments (approx. 400 yrs)
the royal line of David had fallen on evil days. The people knew who the rightful successor to David was(see ezra,etc above) It was Zerubbabel, the royal prince, yet there was no king on the throne of Israel, they were a puppet nation., under the domination of Persia.
(The Greeks namely, Alexander, was actually quite friendly to Israel)
Now, when you open the New Testament to Matthew, there is a different atmosphere. Almost a different world.
Rome is center of power. Center of power had shifted from east to west.
Palestine was still a puppet state.
But now there is a king on the throne for the Jews. But this king is the descendant of Esau instead of Jacob, & his name is Herod the Great.
(I think you may recognize his son also-Antipater)
So, my point is that the "seed" to be born at this time was Jesus.

Now, ALL Israel, described by Paul in Romans 11:26 is (if you read from chapter 9-11) The Gentiles who were grafted in to the TRUE OLIVE TREE- (remember, the unbelieving -just of the flesh only Jews-were broken off)
AND the believing Jews, along with these Gentile believers(us) make up ALL ISRAEL according to Scripture.
Yes, we can be broken off just as easily as those "unbelieving" Jews bc of lack of Faith- Just the same as those un.Jews can be grafted back in if they repent & accept Christ, so that God will have mercy on them, just as He does for all men.

I covered a few ideas here. I hope it cleared up Jeremiah 31 for you.
As only the Remnant of Israel (Isaac's seed) will be a nation before God.
And since this Remnant ended in Christ's days- the nation of Israel today is not Biblical Israel.
This is where the OT & the New Jerusalem, which is symbolic of both heaven & earth(but on the scope covering Christian earth) comes in.

JesusisGod
Dec 16th 2007, 03:44 AM
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
Ok, so you're saying Jesus is the One who causes sacrifice to cease and also makes desolate?


Jesus confirmed the covenant that God made with Abraham.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Jesus confirmed the New Covenant during the 70th week.
Galatians says the covenant in Christ that was made with Abraham was confirmed by God the Father 430 years before the law was instituted. I'm not sure if you thought you answered my last question, but if you did, I don't understand your answer. I'll ask again.

Why does Daniel 9 say Jesus confirms an eternal covenant with many for one week? If Jesus dies half way into the 70th week, what happens to the other 3 1/2 years?

What about this. Daniel 9:26 says Messiah dies after the 69th week. This may or may not include any portion of the 70th week.

JesusisGod
Dec 16th 2007, 05:18 AM
Hi Allegra.

["And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drinkoffering shall be taken away; and upon the temple shall be the abomination of desolation; and at the end of the time (the age) an end shall be put to the desolation."

Daniel 8
11 And this shall be until the Chief Captain has delivered the captivity: and by reason of the horn the sacrifice was disturbed, and he prospered; and the holy place shall be made desolate.
13 And I heard one saint speaking, and a saint said to a certain one speaking, How long shall the vision continue, even the removal of the sacrifice, and the bringing in of the sin of desolation; and how long shall the sanctuary and host be trampled?

Daniel 11
31 And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual sacrifice, and make the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Doesn't it seem the least bit odd to you that Daniel is told the one who takes away the daily sacrifice is the little horn and that 3 1/2 years later, the abomination of desolation is set up? Do you think the passages I cited have nothing to do with the sacrifice that ceases and the abomination of desolation upon the temple mentioned in Daniel 9?

Allegra
Dec 16th 2007, 05:21 AM
[quote]Ok, so you're saying Jesus is the One who causes sacrifice to cease and also makes desolate?To be brief, YES.
Rome was God's instrument but yes, it was God's judgment.
Remember what I posted about the Holy Spirit?
"And on the wings of abominations" & Jesus' instructions to the 12 in Matthew 10, about how he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword?
These things happened for apostate Israel in the last years leading up to the final destruction & judgment.


Galatians says the covenant in Christ that was made with Abraham was confirmed by God the Father 430 years before the law was instituted. I'm not sure if you thought you answered my last question, but if you did, I don't understand your answer. I'll ask again. OK.

Why does Daniel 9 say Jesus confirms an eternal covenant with many for one week? If Jesus dies half way into the 70th week, what happens to the other 3 1/2 years? The final 3 1/2 yrs. is fulfilled to the Jews, by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit. Remember, they went to the Jews first?
This is not the same 3 1/2 yrs., the Great Tribulation, when the saints are given over to him, 11th horn in Dan 7, for time, times, & a half time.
That time is from 67AD-70.5AD.


What about this. Daniel 9:26 says Messiah dies after the 69th week. This may or may not include any portion of the 70th week.It just says the Messiah will die after the 69th week.
I know, it's a rough passage. It took me weeks to figure it out.

ShirleyFord
Dec 16th 2007, 05:27 AM
Ok, so you're saying Jesus is the One who causes sacrifice to cease and also makes desolate?

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


"...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..."

Jesus sacrifice on the cross in the midst of the 70th week when He confirmed the covenant in His own blood ended the need for the Levitical sacrifices to be offered.

Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,




"... and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate...."


I believe that the angel Gabriel is referring to v. 26b:


"...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."


Jesus prophecied judgement on the city of Jerusalem and the temple:


Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Lk 21:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Lk 21:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


God used the Roman Empire (Daniel 9:26b) in 70 AD to bring His judgement on the unbelieving Jews, their 2nd temple and their city of Jerusalem as He had done before by using the Babylonian Empire to bring His judgement on the unbelieving Jews, their first temple and their city of Jerusalem.






Galatians says the covenant in Christ that was made with Abraham was confirmed by God the Father 430 years before the law was instituted. I'm not sure if you thought you answered my last question, but if you did, I don't understand your answer. I'll ask again.


God made the New Covenant with Abraham and Jesus, the Messiah Prince, confirmed it just as Daniel 9:27a prophecied. There is only one "he" spoken of in Daniel 9:24-27. And that is Messiah Jesus.

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Is it your belief that an antichrist/beast confirms a covenant with Israel? If so, would you post any supporting Scriptures that you have found?





Why does Daniel 9 say Jesus confirms an eternal covenant with many for one week? If Jesus dies half way into the 70th week, what happens to the other 3 1/2 years?


Jesus confirmed the New Covenant with many of Daniel's people, who believed that He was their prophecied promised Messiah, during His three and one-half ministry and during the three and one-half years by His Spirit through His apostles as they preached the gospel to no other than to Daniel's people before the gospel began going out to the Gentiles.




What about this. Daniel 9:26 says Messiah dies after the 69th week. This may or may not include any portion of the 70th week.

Sure it does. After 69 wouldn't still be 69. It would have to be the 70th week.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."


Wouldn't "after" the 49th yr. of the 7 weeks in v. 25 be the 50th year? Why then wouldn't the 70th week be after the 69th week?


Shirley

JesusisGod
Dec 16th 2007, 05:45 AM
Allegra,
Also, Philip Mauro says,

But it is hardly conceivable that any covenant - particularly one of such importance as to have a prominent place in this prophecy -would be confirmed for such a brief term as seven years Even if we suppose, as some do (though with no proof whatever to support them), that the prophecy refers to some agreement which the supposed "prince" of the future will supposedly make with "many" Jews, permitting them to resume the long abolished sacrifices of the law, can we conceive that such a covenant would be limited to the insignificant term of seven years?
Yet, we don't know what type of covenant the anti-Christ is going to make with the Jews. It might be that he comes to them after they have already been practicing OT sacrifices. Paul said this man of sin would enter the temple showing himself to be God. It could be that when he does this, he puts an end to their sacrifice practices and 3 1/2 years later sets up the abomination of desolation.

In any case, Mauros statement that there is no proof whatever for the idea that a man makes an agreement with the Jews could be untrue when we consider that Pauls teaching to the Thessalonians says the reason this man comes is that God sends a strong delusion that people who didn't love the truth should believe a lie.

Cyberseeker
Dec 16th 2007, 06:14 AM
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (troops of Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (ad70) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after baptism) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (Veil of temple torn) And on the wing of abominations (temple worship after the 70 weeks was an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Gods judgement on Jerusalem from ad70 until the times of the gentiles finish)
(Dan 9: 26,27 NKJV with my notes added)

JesusisGod
Dec 16th 2007, 06:25 AM
Hi Shirley and Allegra.

Is it your belief that an antichrist/beast confirms a covenant with Israel? If so, would you post any supporting Scriptures that you have found?
I'll tell you exactly where I'm at. Most of my Christian life I was taught the anti-Christ makes an agreement with Israel and then breaks it half way through. Now, I'm trying to study in depth to see if that's true. I thank you both for your patience as unlearning what you have believed for so long is difficult. Also, being a cement head to begin with doesn't help. lol

I know of no scripture that says a "covenant" is made between the Jews and the anti-Christ, but how could a man decieve the Jews into believing he was God unless they had some type of relationship with each other. What type of "delusion" would it be for the anti-Christ to just start wiping out the Jews (2 Th.2:11)? Why does the Bible say that by peace he destroys many? (Da.8:25) My head is swimming.:confused

JesusisGod
Dec 16th 2007, 06:43 AM
Hi Cyberseeker.
I guess you are in agreement with Allegra and Shirley on this. Could ZI ask you this?

Quote:
["And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drinkoffering shall be taken away; and upon the temple shall be the abomination of desolation; and at the end of the time (the age) an end shall be put to the desolation."
Daniel 8
11 And this shall be until the Chief Captain has delivered the captivity: and by reason of the horn the sacrifice was disturbed, and he prospered; and the holy place shall be made desolate.
13 And I heard one saint speaking, and a saint said to a certain one speaking, How long shall the vision continue, even the removal of the sacrifice, and the bringing in of the sin of desolation; and how long shall the sanctuary and host be trampled?

Daniel 11
31 And seeds shall spring up out of him, and they shall profane the sanctuary of strength, and they shall remove the perpetual sacrifice, and make the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12
11 And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Does it seem in any way strange to you that in Daniel 8 etc. putting an end to sacrifice is what the little horn does, but in Daniel 9, putting an end to sacrifice is what Jesus does?

And if anyone knows, how does the little horn end sacrifice?

Allegra
Dec 16th 2007, 06:46 AM
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (troops of Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (ad70) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after baptism) He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (Veil of temple torn) And on the wing of abominations (temple worship after the 70 weeks was an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Gods judgement on Jerusalem from ad70 until the times of the gentiles finish)
(Dan 9: 26,27 NKJV with my notes added)
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan9.pdf

I agree, Titus was the military guy, Vespasian's son.
But I do you agree the end was the end & that was the consummation, & there's no more reference to the Gentiles. The times of the Gentiles on Israel finished in AD70.

Cyberseeker
Dec 16th 2007, 08:07 AM
Does it seem in any way strange to you that in Daniel 8 etc. putting an end to sacrifice is what the little horn does, but in Daniel 9, putting an end to sacrifice is what Jesus does?

And if anyone knows, how does the little horn end sacrifice?

Fair comments but …

The ‘little horn’ profanes the temple; Christ abolishes it altogether. The book of Daniel is a series of separate visions and Dan 8 & 11 is different to Dan 9. One speaks of Antiochus Epiphanes who stopped the sacrifice temporarily (sacrificed a pig) in BC168 and the other speaks of Christ who put a permanent end to it. They read similarly but are different.

The 1290 days relates to Christ’s sacrifice but I won’t expand on this.

I believe the views you see on this board represent a major trend away from the once popular pre-mil futurist doctrines. It can be noticed all over the Internet. But in the fallout some are going ‘Preterist,’ others ‘Amillenial’ and others a bit of a mix.

Who has got it all right is a matter of opinion but I believe the fallout is a good thing because the whole futurist scenario has been tried and found wanting. It needs to go into the melting pot and seriously reassessed. Daniels 70 weeks is the right place to start because all the major prophetic systems stand or fall on it.

Have a blessed Christmas, :)

Cyber

ShirleyFord
Dec 16th 2007, 05:03 PM
Hi Shirley and Allegra.

I'll tell you exactly where I'm at. Most of my Christian life I was taught the anti-Christ makes an agreement with Israel and then breaks it half way through. Now, I'm trying to study in depth to see if that's true. I thank you both for your patience as unlearning what you have believed for so long is difficult. Also, being a cement head to begin with doesn't help. lol

I know personally how hard it is to unlearn a teaching that one has been taught for so many years. But when I began reading the Bible for myself instead of just accepting what my scholarly dispensationalist/premil teachers told me what the Bible said and meant, I began to see that I had been told to accept something that was not what the Bible literally said.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Some things I finally saw that was not in this verse:

Antichrist
The Jews accepting antichrist as their promised Messiah
The rebuilding of the third temple
The Levitical priesthood offering animal sacrifices for the sins of the people
The antichrist going into the Holy of Holies and placing his throne on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant 3 1/2 years after he begans his 7 year reign of his kingdom as the Jews promised Messiah
The Jews then realizing that antichrist is not their Messiah, the Son of the Living and only true God, after all, when they then reject antichrist as their King Messiah
At that point, the antichrist breaks the 7 year covenant that he has made with the Jews 3 1/2 years before and unleashes his wrath on the Jews as God uses him to unleash the wrath of God on them as His judgement and punishment for rejecting their true Messiah Jesus when He came, 2000 + years before
Antichrist puts a stop to the Levitical priesthood and the offering of animal sacrifices
Antichrist destroys their third temple
God allows antichrist to punish the Jews until he kills 2/3 of them before the 1/3 who are left will finally submit and agree to accept Jesus as their promised Messiah when He returns


I know of no scripture that says a "covenant" is made between the Jews and the anti-Christ, but how could a man decieve the Jews into believing he was God unless they had some type of relationship with each other. What type of "delusion" would it be for the anti-Christ to just start wiping out the Jews (2 Th.2:11)? Why does the Bible say that by peace he destroys many? (Da.8:25) My head is swimming.:confused

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Notice, this Scripture doesn't say anything about antichrist wiping out the Jews. The Jews are not even mentioned.

These are unsaved people.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Daniel 8:25 is speaking about a king rising up out of the Greecian Empire before the first coming of Christ:


21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Daniel 11 is speaking about the same thing:

Daniel 11:1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.



Shirley

quiet dove
Dec 16th 2007, 05:29 PM
Hi Shirley and Allegra.

I'll tell you exactly where I'm at. Most of my Christian life I was taught the anti-Christ makes an agreement with Israel and then breaks it half way through. Now, I'm trying to study in depth to see if that's true. I thank you both for your patience as unlearning what you have believed for so long is difficult. Also, being a cement head to begin with doesn't help. lol

I know of no scripture that says a "covenant" is made between the Jews and the anti-Christ, but how could a man decieve the Jews into believing he was God unless they had some type of relationship with each other. What type of "delusion" would it be for the anti-Christ to just start wiping out the Jews (2 Th.2:11)? Why does the Bible say that by peace he destroys many? (Da.8:25) My head is swimming.:confused

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people (Rome 70AD) of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering (break the agreement). ....

When did Christ "confirm" the Law, did He not come to fulfill the Law. He did not confirm the Law (Mosaic) Covenant. It was already confirmed by God the Father. And what the Father confirmed, did not need to be confirmed again. Then broke it??? By the fulfillment of that same covenant? How can fulfill the Law and break the Law Covenant be the same things?

DeafPosttrib
Dec 16th 2007, 06:08 PM
I think, many are struggling with Daniel 9:24-27. The reason is 'a week' equals 7 years. Many are argue on this. Because of in Daniel 7:25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." This tells us, Satan(many called, "Antichrist") shall make war against the saints for "a time and times and the dividing of time."

Dispensationalists say, it means, 'time' equals one year, so, add 'time' unto 'times' total is 3 years, and dividing a time - half a year. Total is 3 1/2 years.

That why, they argue on Dan. 9:26-27, they say, it shall be ceasing the covenant in the "midst of the week", they believe, Antichrist shall make peace with Israel so called, "seven year of peace treaty". Then, in the middle of seven year treaty, Antichrist breaks it, so, it shall be into great tribulation with Israel for 3 1/2 years.

Also, in Rev. 13:5 says, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." 42 months is 3 1/2 years, because, 12 months equal 1 year. Then, 12 months x 3 years = 36 months, and 6 months total is 42 months.

In Rev. 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." 1260 days is 3 1/2 years.

There is 365 days a year. Then, 365 days x 3 years = 1095 days, then 365 days divided 2 = 182 days. So, 1095 + 182 = 1277 days.

Interesting, amills argue, these are 'symbol' of numbers of years, they do not believe these are literal excatly of how long it shall last, but they say, it symbols as short time like as "little season".

Premills say of "little season" of Rev. 20:3 is not same as 42 months or "a time, and times, and dividing a time", or 1260 days. They saying, little season could be last for few months or years depend on Satan's wrath shall be last as God allows Satan to doing it prior God send fire to destroy Satan and his army.

Amills say of "a little season" is same as '42 months', 'a time and times, and dividing a time', and 1260 days. Are they correct?

Myself as amill. I am balance on literal and symbol or intepreting them into spiritualize meaning. For example, premills intepreting verses in literal too much. Amills intepreting verses into spiritualize too much. Both I do not agree with them.

Even, I do not agree with amills on armageddon, they saying it is symbol and spiritual warfare between God and satan, not physical.

I still believe armageddon is literal and physical, even included spiritually too.

For me, I believe Dan. 7:25 of 'a time, times, and dividing a time' is literal nearly exactly of length time, same with rev. 13:5 of 42 months. I believe it is literal nearly exactly of length time. Even, also, Rev. 12:6 of 1260 days is nearly exactly of length time.

Remember, Jesus came to earth. I believe Jesus' ministry in Israel took him for 3 1/2 years prior Calvary. I believe Christ shall be cut off during in the middle of the week- Dan. 9:26-27.

So, I believe the last remain left of the week shall be Satan's for 3 1/2 years, NOT seven years, as what many pretribs teaching it that, "Tribulation Period" is 7 years. None find anywhere in the Bible. I do not believe 7 years, I believe 3 1/2 years. Because, book of Revelation was written in cycles as parallels, telling the repeat of things, not written into chronological order.

Many Pretribs teaching on Revelation is strictly chronological order all the way.

I rememeber not long time, David Taylor made excellent point on the numbers of length time, he said, supposed we intepreting them in Revelation of numbers in chronological order, it would be last, I think 28 years(sorry I cannot rememebr the exactly of length time as what David said), I am not sure.

That pretty long time. But, not what Revelation actual saying. Because it was written in cycles and parallels. There are seven cycles in Revelation.

So, I BELIEVE Satan shall war with the saints for nearly 3 1/2 years. Because, I feel that satan will copy the same as what Christ did to Israel as "covenant" of Calvary. I believe Satan shall make covent with Jews - 'peace agreement'. But, He will deceive them and persecute against them for 42 months.

For me, I believe Daniel 9:24-27 is separated from Satan and supposed future great tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 FOCUS on Jesus Christ and Calvary. This context have do nothing with Satan and future persecution.

I do not believe Dan. 9:24-27 is relate with Dan. 7:25; Rev. 12:6; & 13:5. These must be separate from Dan. 9:24-27.

But, I know how difficult for us to argue and clear up what these passages are actual saying.

I would like to hear from amills what they think of Dan. 7:25; 12:6; and 13:5 saying of length time, and telling me why do you think these are 'symbol', not literal? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

ShirleyFord
Dec 16th 2007, 06:13 PM
Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people (Rome 70AD) of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary....27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering (break the agreement). ....

QD, where do you find a covenant being broken in Daniel 9:27?




When did Christ "confirm" the Law, did He not come to fulfill the Law. He did not confirm the Law (Mosaic) Covenant. It was already confirmed by God the Father. And what the Father confirmed, did not need to be confirmed again. Then broke it??? By the fulfillment of that same covenant? How can fulfill the Law and break the Law Covenant be the same things?


Jesus came and fulfilled the Old Covenant and confirmed the New Covenant that God made with Abraham with His own blood.


There is no covenant mentioned in the Bible that I have been able to find in connection with antichrist/beast.

Jesus is the only One mentioned with a connection to the new covenant (testament).

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Jesus said to His disciples just before His crucifixion:


Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mk 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Lk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, writes about that event...


1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


...and then adds....



2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.



...then writes this about the unbelieving Jews of his day...


2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


The writer of Hebrews certainly connects Jesus to the new covenant (testament):

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Shirley

John146
Dec 16th 2007, 06:25 PM
I think, many are struggling with Daniel 9:24-27. The reason is 'a week' equals 7 years. Many are argue on this. Because of in Daniel 7:25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." This tells us, Satan(many called, "Antichrist") shall make war against the saints for "a time and times and the dividing of time."

Dispensationalists say, it means, 'time' equals one year, so, add 'time' unto 'times' total is 3 years, and dividing a time - half a year. Total is 3 1/2 years.

That why, they argue on Dan. 9:26-27, they say, it shall be ceasing the covenant in the "midst of the week", they believe, Antichrist shall make peace with Israel so called, "seven year of peace treaty". Then, in the middle of seven year treaty, Antichrist breaks it, so, it shall be into great tribulation with Israel for 3 1/2 years.

Also, in Rev. 13:5 says, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." 42 months is 3 1/2 years, because, 12 months equal 1 year. Then, 12 months x 3 years = 36 months, and 6 months total is 42 months.

In Rev. 12:6 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." 1260 days is 3 1/2 years.

There is 365 days a year. Then, 365 days x 3 years = 1095 days, then 365 days divided 2 = 182 days. So, 1095 + 182 = 1277 days.

Interesting, amills argue, these are 'symbol' of numbers of years, they do not believe these are literal excatly of how long it shall last, but they say, it symbols as short time like as "little season".

Premills say of "little season" of Rev. 20:3 is not same as 42 months or "a time, and times, and dividing a time", or 1260 days. They saying, little season could be last for few months or years depend on Satan's wrath shall be last as God allows Satan to doing it prior God send fire to destroy Satan and his army.

Amills say of "a little season" is same as '42 months', 'a time and times, and dividing a time', and 1260 days. Are they correct?

Myself as amill. I am balance on literal and symbol or intepreting them into spiritualize meaning. For example, premills intepreting verses in literal too much. Amills intepreting verses into spiritualize too much. Both I do not agree with them.

Even, I do not agree with amills on armageddon, they saying it is symbol and spiritual warfare between God and satan, not physical.

I still believe armageddon is literal and physical, even included spiritually too.

For me, I believe Dan. 7:25 of 'a time, times, and dividing a time' is literal nearly exactly of length time, same with rev. 13:5 of 42 months. I believe it is literal nearly exactly of length time. Even, also, Rev. 12:6 of 1260 days is nearly exactly of length time.

Remember, Jesus came to earth. I believe Jesus' ministry in Israel took him for 3 1/2 years prior Calvary. I believe Christ shall be cut off during in the middle of the week- Dan. 9:26-27.

So, I believe the last remain left of the week shall be Satan's for 3 1/2 years, NOT seven years, as what many pretribs teaching it that, "Tribulation Period" is 7 years. None find anywhere in the Bible. I do not believe 7 years, I believe 3 1/2 years. Because, book of Revelation was written in cycles as parallels, telling the repeat of things, not written into chronological order.

Many Pretribs teaching on Revelation is strictly chronological order all the way.

I rememeber not long time, David Taylor made excellent point on the numbers of length time, he said, supposed we intepreting them in Revelation of numbers in chronological order, it would be last, I think 28 years(sorry I cannot rememebr the exactly of length time as what David said), I am not sure.

That pretty long time. But, not what Revelation actual saying. Because it was written in cycles and parallels. There are seven cycles in Revelation.

So, I BELIEVE Satan shall war with the saints for nearly 3 1/2 years. Because, I feel that satan will copy the same as what Christ did to Israel as "covenant" of Calvary. I believe Satan shall make covent with Jews - 'peace agreement'. But, He will deceive them and persecute against them for 42 months.

For me, I believe Daniel 9:24-27 is separated from Satan and supposed future great tribulation period. The context of Dan. 9:24-27 FOCUS on Jesus Christ and Calvary. This context have do nothing with Satan and future persecution.

I do not believe Dan. 9:24-27 is relate with Dan. 7:25; Rev. 12:6; & 13:5. These must be separate from Dan. 9:24-27.

But, I know how difficult for us to argue and clear up what these passages are actual saying.

I would like to hear from amills what they think of Dan. 7:25; 12:6; and 13:5 saying of length time, and telling me why do you think these are 'symbol', not literal? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

One reason I do not believe those time periods are literal is because Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His coming. If those are speaking of literal time periods then we'd be able to calculate the day of His return. So, with your view, we'd calculate 1,260 days from the time Satan or the Antichrist made a peace agreement with the Jews. How exactly Satan would make a coveneant or peace agreement with the Jews, I don't know. Could you clarify what exactly you meant by that?

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 06:38 PM
I have a question:
Some are saying that the whole 70th week concluded in AD70, that the covenant confirmed with many is the New Covenant, and that the ceasing of the sacrifices in the midst of the week is referring to Christ's death on the cross.
If the covenant that was confirmed for one week is the New Covenant and that whole week was all done in AD70, then what happens to the covenant? It was only for one week, or, for one 7 year period. Has the New Covenant ended then? In AD70?

John146
Dec 16th 2007, 08:09 PM
I have a question:
Some are saying that the whole 70th week concluded in AD70, that the covenant confirmed with many is the New Covenant, and that the ceasing of the sacrifices in the midst of the week is referring to Christ's death on the cross.
If the covenant that was confirmed for one week is the New Covenant and that whole week was all done in AD70, then what happens to the covenant? It was only for one week, or, for one 7 year period. Has the New Covenant ended then? In AD70?

I don't recall anyone on this thread saying that the 70th week ended in 70 AD. What happened in 70 AD was the consequence of the cutting off of the Messiah (Christ's crucifixion) and is not actually part of the 70 weeks.

Those of us who believe the 70 weeks was fulfilled don't see the covenant as having only a duration of 7 years. Instead, we see that it took 7 years to confirm the new covenant. The first 3.5 years being the ministry, death and resurrection of Christ and then the last half having to do with the fact that the gospel was first preached to the Jews before going to the Gentiles. In other words, the covenant was confirmed by the ministry, death and resurrection of Christ as well as what occurred on the day of Pentecost and the following time period when the gospel went out in power first to the Jews.

quiet dove
Dec 16th 2007, 08:11 PM
Shirley

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. ...
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. ....


Jesus came and fulfilled the Old Covenant and confirmed the New Covenant that God made with Abraham with His own blood.I agree, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and confirmed the New, but He did not confirm the New for seven years, nor did it take Him seven years to confirm the New.

After the sixty-two weeks and the Messiah cut off we loose our time frame of 70 weeks and we know that for sure because the temple having been destroyed in 70AD. Daniels prophecies give us chronological information on kingdoms and events, now all the sudden 9:25-27 needs to be rearranged? I disagree, which means some type of agreement is made or confirmed that has to do with sacrifice, an agreement that will be broken and the sacrifice stops.

We know that Daniels prophecies were accurately and fulfilled in the same chronological order they were given and I see no reason to pull these particular three verses out and rearrange them. Nor taking the natural flow of the text to apply the "he" of verse 27 to the Messiah. Just because the words, "confirm" and "covenant" are used does not mean it is speaking of Christ. We have that same acurate chronological order of the 70 weeks until we get to the Messiah being cut off, and it isnt because Daniel all the sudden changed his chronological pattern, it is because there is a time frame in between the events described....for Israel.


I believe we have support elsewhere in scripture for this gap in Daniel.

Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel,(Jesus) whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. 3 Therefore he shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel.

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 08:21 PM
I don't recall anyone on this thread saying that the 70th week ended in 70 AD. What happened in 70 AD was the consequence of the cutting off of the Messiah (Christ's crucifixion) and is not actually part of the 70 weeks.

Those of us who believe the 70 weeks was fulfilled don't see the covenant as having only a duration of 7 years. Instead, we see that it took 7 years to confirm the new covenant. The first 3.5 years being the ministry, death and resurrection of Christ and then the last half having to do with the fact that the gospel was first preached to the Jews before going to the Gentiles. In other words, the covenant was confirmed by the ministry, death and resurrection of Christ as well as what occurred on the day of Pentecost and the following time period when the gospel went out in power first to the Jews.
Thank you for that clear and concise answer. But that leads me to another question.:D
Assuming that Christ's death on the cross marked the midweek point, which was presumably in 33AD thereabouts, then the end of that seven year period would have been in 36-37. Is there some significant event that took place at that time that clearly marks the end of the 'confirmation period'?

Cyberseeker
Dec 16th 2007, 08:34 PM
Thank you for that clear and concise answer. But that leads me to another question.:D
Assuming that Christ's death on the cross marked the midweek point, which was presumably in 33AD thereabouts, then the end of that seven year period would have been in 36-37. Is there some significant event that took place at that time that clearly marks the end of the 'confirmation period'?

Significant events are often accompanied by the ministry of angels. Accordingly the completion of the 70 weeks was confirmed by angels and apostolic vision when the gospel was taken to the gentiles precisely 3½ years after the cross. It is recorded in Acts 10.

So the 'times determined' on the people of Israel ended 3½ after the cross and the 'times of the gentiles' began. Very significant indeed.

Cyber

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 08:38 PM
Thank you. That gives me some things to ponder.:)

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 09:03 PM
Significant events are often accompanied by the ministry of angels. Accordingly the completion of the 70 weeks was confirmed by angels and apostolic vision when the gospel was taken to the gentiles precisely 3½ years after the cross. It is recorded in Acts 10.

So the 'times determined' on the people of Israel ended 3½ after the cross and the 'times of the gentiles' began. Very significant indeed.

CyberOkay, next question. How do you know it was 3 and half years at that point?

John146
Dec 16th 2007, 09:14 PM
Thank you for that clear and concise answer. But that leads me to another question.:D

Sorry, I can only answer one question per day. :D



Assuming that Christ's death on the cross marked the midweek point, which was presumably in 33AD thereabouts, then the end of that seven year period would have been in 36-37. Is there some significant event that took place at that time that clearly marks the end of the 'confirmation period'?

Okay, I guess I'll answer one more. There isn't anything in Scripture or other writings that I know of that specifically says that a certain event marked the end of the 70th week. I personally believe it would be whatever point we could determine that the gospel first officially went out to the Gentiles, whether that was right after Stephen was martyred and Saul (Paul) began persecuting the church and "they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word" (Acts 8:4) or when Peter went to see Cornelius (Acts 10).

Cyberseeker
Dec 16th 2007, 09:15 PM
Kahtar, my wife told me if I didnt get off the computer she was going to wack my ears. :cry:

We would have to set you straight on the (wrong) AD33 date plus do a chronology of the book of Acts. Take me ages bro.

John146
Dec 16th 2007, 09:24 PM
Okay, next question. How do you know it was 3 and half years at that point?

We don't know for absolute certain because I don't think there's anything in Acts that indicates exactly how much time had passed up to that point. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that it could have been 3.5 years.

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 09:56 PM
Kahtar, my wife told me if I didnt get off the computer she was going to wack my ears. :cry:Hey, I understand THAT language!:lol: Go see to her. This'll be here tomorrow.;)

ShirleyFord
Dec 16th 2007, 10:25 PM
Shirley

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. ...
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. ....

I agree, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and confirmed the New, but He did not confirm the New for seven years, nor did it take Him seven years to confirm the New.

After the sixty-two weeks and the Messiah cut off we loose our time frame of 70 weeks and we know that for sure because the temple having been destroyed in 70AD. Daniels prophecies give us chronological information on kingdoms and events, now all the sudden 9:25-27 needs to be rearranged? I disagree, which means some type of agreement is made or confirmed that has to do with sacrifice, an agreement that will be broken and the sacrifice stops.

We know that Daniels prophecies were accurately and fulfilled in the same chronological order they were given and I see no reason to pull these particular three verses out and rearrange them. Nor taking the natural flow of the text to apply the "he" of verse 27 to the Messiah. Just because the words, "confirm" and "covenant" are used does not mean it is speaking of Christ. We have that same acurate chronological order of the 70 weeks until we get to the Messiah being cut off, and it isnt because Daniel all the sudden changed his chronological pattern, it is because there is a time frame in between the events described....for Israel.


I believe we have support elsewhere in scripture for this gap in Daniel.

Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel,(Jesus) whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. 3 Therefore he shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest of his brothers shall return to the people of Israel.





Hi QD,

Gabriel does the same in v. 25 as he does in v. 26 & 27:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

We know that the last part of v. 25 doesn't chronologically follow in order the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks and doesn't happen after the Messiah although Daniel writes it after "Messiah the Prince", as Gabriel showed it to him.

He first gives the 7 weeks of years and then he gives the 62 weeks following the 7 years to the Messiah. Then he reverts back to the 7 weeks and adds more detail about that period.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.



Gabriel shows Daniel that Messiah will be crucified after the 69 weeks in the first part of v. 26. Then in the last part of v. 26 he speaks of the city and the sanctuary being destroyed by the people of the prince that was to come.

We know from history that the Roman Empire was in power during the earthly life and ministry of Christ, and throughout the NT era. We also know from history that the city of Jerusalem and the second temple were destroyed in 70 AD by the military soldiers of Rome, after the crucifixion of Christ.

But the first part of v. 27 does not chronologically come after the last part of v. 26:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Daniel reverts back to the first part of v. 26 to the crucifixion of Christ and adds more details.


It wouldn't make any sense (at least to me it didn't even the many years I just accepted it since I didn't know what else to believe) to have the first part of 27 follow chronologically the last part of 26.

I was taught that v. 26b occurred in 70 AD but v. 27 would occur in the future after the rapture of the Church. I figured those people in v. 26b would be a might old by then. Plus I never could find anywhere in the Bible or in historical documents where the people (the military of Rome) or the prince (Titus or anyone else from the royality of Rome) ever made a covenant with the nation of Israel.

Shirley

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 10:50 PM
So you are saying (Shirley) that the first part of verse 27 is a parenthetical statement?

ShirleyFord
Dec 16th 2007, 11:02 PM
So you are saying (Shirley) that the first part of verse 27 is a parenthetical statement?

Kahtar,

I believe that Gabriel gives Daniel added detail in v. 27a of v. 26a as he did in v. 25, giving added detail of the first part of the verse during the first seven weeks of years after he had given the next block of 62 years of the 70 weeks of years.

We know that the street and the wall of the city of Jerusalem was not built after the Coming of the Messiah the Prince even though Daniel records it after the 62 weeks and the coming of Messiah.


Shirley

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 12:30 AM
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Notice, this Scripture doesn't say anything about antichrist wiping out the Jews. The Jews are not even mentioned.
I know, but vs.4 says he will sit in the temple as to show himself as God. What do you think that means?


These are unsaved people.
Yes I know, but since Paul mentions a temple he sits in, some of those lost people are probably Jewish.


Daniel 8:25 is speaking about a king rising up out of the Greecian Empire before the first coming of Christ:

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
If I could pick your brain here, what do you think it means that this ruler "cast down some of the host (of Heaven) and of the stars to the ground and stamped on them"?



Daniel 11 is about the same thing.

Ok, then help me with this if you know it. Daniel 11 ends with telling us that the King comes to an end and no one can help him. Then in ch.12, it says (paraphrasing) "At that time", Michael stands for the children of Israel, there's a time of trouble unparalled in history, the Jews are delivered and a resurrection occurs where some live and some are shamed. How do these things in ch.12 fit in with the time frame of this past King?

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 12:41 AM
Hi quiet dove.

When did Christ "confirm" the Law, did He not come to fulfill the Law. He did not confirm the Law (Mosaic) Covenant. It was already confirmed by God the Father. And what the Father confirmed, did not need to be confirmed again. Then broke it??? By the fulfillment of that same covenant? How can fulfill the Law and break the Law Covenant be the same things?
I wasn't arguing on the side that Jesus was thew one who caused the sacrifice to cease (in Da.9). I always thought it was the anti-Christ. But I would say there is little difference between "fulfilling" the law of Moses and "confirming" it. Jesus kept the law and instructed his followers to keep it. Maybe some today would brand the Messiah a "legalist." lol But anyway, I'm learning alot on this subject.

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 12:57 AM
Shirley,
While reading another thread started by thirdhero, a question popped into my head. If the places I've cited in recent posts which mention the "abomination of desolation" pertain to past Kings, why did Jesus tell His disciples to be aware of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel? There must be an abomination of desolation in Daniel that doesn't pertain to the Greek kings of ch.8 or 11. Where is it?

Allegra
Dec 17th 2007, 03:17 AM
While reading another thread started by thirdhero, a question popped into my head. If the places I've cited in recent posts which mention the "abomination of desolation" pertain to past Kings, why did Jesus tell His disciples to be aware of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel? There must be an abomination of desolation in Daniel that doesn't pertain to the Greek kings of ch.8 or 11. Where is it?
Well, one has to consider their source. I'm not any kind of millennialist.
To answer your question- it can be found in Scripture & history.
When Jesus said in Matt.24:15, was referring to Daniel 12:11. However, Antioch Epiphanes ALSO desecrated the temple in the same way.
But Daniel 11 ends with A, Epiphanes. "The end in that chapter refers to the "end time of a particular kings reign or downfall"
When Daniel 12 opens- THIS IS THE PROPHECY OF THE END TIMES.
Daniel 12:11
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
This is what our Lord was referring to in Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2024:15-16;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-23967a)] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

The words of Christ, we can clearly identify the abomination that maketh desolate. Matthew 24:15 reads that the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place or, in other words, the sanctuary of Herod's temple in A.D. 70. This would be the Roman army that placed the abomination that maketh desolate in the 'sanctuary of strength'. History identifies that the Roman army, once inside the temple walls, placed the golden images of the Roman eagle all around the temple area, and even, it is stated, inside its walls. In the Book, History of the Christian Church, p. 398, Schaff states, quoting Josephus from Wars of the Jews, VI, VI, 1; "The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of Joy."

ShirleyFord
Dec 17th 2007, 03:37 AM
I know, but vs.4 says he will sit in the temple as to show himself as God. What do you think that means?

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

JiG,

The only reference we have in the NT of the temple of God referring to a stone temple in Jerusalem is by Matthew referring to the second temple:

Mt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,


There is no other reference in the NT which refers to the stone temple then standing in Jerusalem as "the temple of God".

All other references to the temple of God refers to:


The body of Christ
Individual believers of the Church
The local Church congregation
The entire universal Church
The temple in heaven
Paul doesn't mention any type of stone temple nor the city of Jerusalem in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. He doesn't refer to the second temple then standing in Jerusalem as "the temple of God". Nor does he say anything about a future third stone temple that would be built so antichrist would have a temple to go into and somewhere to sit down on so that the Jews would finally understand that he was not their promised Messiah.

I believe that "the temple of God" that Paul was referring to was local Church congregations, as was the local Church of Pergamos:

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.


The Church in Pergamos was the temple of God. That congregation had those who held fast to the name of Christ and had not denied His faith even in the midst of severe persecution and death. But in the midst of the temple of God, Satan dwelled, his seat, his throne, was set up there.




Yes I know, but since Paul mentions a temple he sits in, some of those lost people are probably Jewish.


Are you trying to fit 2 Thessalonians 2:4 into Daniel 9:27?

Daniel 9:25 speaks of the rebuilding of the second temple and v. 26b speaks of the destruction of the second temple. But I don't see anything in v. 27 that says anything about a third temple being rebuilt.



If I could pick your brain here, what do you think it means that this ruler "cast down some of the host (of Heaven) and of the stars to the ground and stamped on them"?



I don't know but I don't see any connection to the little horn of Daniel 8 to the "he" of Daniel 9:27 who confirmed the covenant with many.




Ok, then help me with this if you know it. Daniel 11 ends with telling us that the King comes to an end and no one can help him. Then in ch.12, it says (paraphrasing) "At that time", Michael stands for the children of Israel, there's a time of trouble unparalled in history, the Jews are delivered and a resurrection occurs where some live and some are shamed. How do these things in ch.12 fit in with the time frame of this past King?

I don't believe that this last king of the Greecian Empire in Daniel 11 has anything to do with Daniel 12, since he comes to an end and there is none to help him. This, according to historical records, is when Rome overtakes the Greecian Empire and it becomes part of the Roman Empire , the 4th empire that will be in power when the Messiah of Daniel and his people will come on the scene according to Daniel 2 & 7.


Shirley

Allegra
Dec 17th 2007, 04:59 AM
Yes, Shirley you are correct.
In Daniel Chapter 8, starting with verse 8, "The large horn was broken"
This was actually the end of the Greek kingdom under Alexander.
When he died in 323BC, thrown from a horse, he left no heirs (his son & wife were killed earlier)
His empire was broken up into fragments. After some time, however there were four generals who led his armies,(four well-defined monarchies) who divided Alexander's empire between them.
Two of them are noteworthy here. Ptolemy, who gained Egypt & the N. African countries; & the other, Seleucus, who gained Syria, north of Palestine. (Kings of the North & South)
At this time, Palestine was annexed by Egypt & suffered at the hands of Ptolemy.
Now, in Daniel 8:9, ""And out of them came forth a rather small horn"
This "little horn" was the grandson of Seleucus- Namely, Seleucid Antiochus 1V Epiphanes of Syria. (But he was actually born in Athens) The time is about 163 BC.
This is where we will identify the King of the North & the King of the South in Daniel 11.
Daniel 11:22-45 deals with A. Ephiphanes, his plunder of Jerusalem & the destruction of the city itself, as well as the wars between the government of Antiochus 1V and the remnant of faithful Jews, the Maccabees.
(O.T. Apocrypha-1Macc;Guizot's Ancient History)

(There 3 destructions of Jerusalem- 1. Nebuchadnezzar, 2. Antiochus, 3. Romans)

So I can discuss Daniel 8 & 11 tomorrow, if you are interested.:)

DIZZY
Dec 17th 2007, 05:29 AM
There is no other reference in the NT which refers to the stone temple then standing in Jerusalem as "the temple of God".



Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

MATTHEW 24:15,16
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Revelation 13:4-6
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

Hi Shirley,
There is a referenc in the new testament to the temple that is built for the last week of Daniel 9:27 where the abomination of desolations sets himself up and seeks to be worshiped as God.

Revelation 11:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

This temple that John measures is the temple that is built before the abomination of desolations sets himself up in it as God. God measures out the temple and those who worship in it as His very own people but the outer court He has left to the Gentiles to trample under their feet.

At the moment the temple does not exist and there are no Jews who worship there either. Israel will rebuild another temple and the two witness will prophesy out side the temple for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

God Bless

David Taylor
Dec 17th 2007, 01:12 PM
Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

An OT fulfilled prophecy describing the period of time between the rebuilding of Jerusalem following the return from Babylonian exile, and the incarnation, and death of Jesus Christ, who would bring and end to, and make the abominations that were being offered and sacrificed in the temple desolate. Nothing here involves a rebuilt temple made with hands 2000 years after Herod's temple was destroyed.


MATTHEW 24:15,16
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

A NT fulfilled prophecy spoken of by Christ about the destruction of the temple and its buildings he spoke about in Matthew 23 and the beginning verses of Matthew 24. Nothing here involves a rebuilt temple made with hands 2000 years after Herod's temple was destroyed.


Revelation 13:4-6
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

God's tabernacle is Jesus Christ and His people, not a stone temple made with hands.

Acts 15:16 "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God"

Hebrews 8:2 "A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building"



Revelation 11:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. ”

The temple that was standing when John measured it mentioned above, was destroyed in the first century AD, during the 42 month seige of Jerusalem by the Romans, with not one stone left upon another, never to be rebuilt.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. "

When we see the temple, and the tabernacle standing again on the Earth, it will be the Lord Jesus Christ, the true tabernacle, and the temple made without hands standing upon the Earth; just as Job proclaimed.

Job 19:25 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

ShirleyFord
Dec 17th 2007, 01:38 PM
Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Dizzy,

We find the prophecy in Daniel 9:25 that Jerusalem would be rebuilt after the Babylonian Captivity:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

To fully restore and build Jerusalem was to have the temple of God restored and rebuilt, standing in its midst since without the temple, Jerusalem was nothing special in God's eyes in the OT.

And we find the rebuilding of the second temple and Jerusalem after the Babylonian Captivity recorded in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. That same second temple (although remodeled and added to by King Herod) was still standing in the midst of Jerusalem when Jesus and throughout the New Testament era.

Daniel then prophecies that the second temple and the city of Jerusalem would be destroyed after the crucifixion of Christ in Daniel 9:26b and 27b:

26...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined 27...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


There is no mention in Daniel of rebuilding a third temple after the First Coming of Christ and the second temple was destroyed.


I know that there are many today who claim that a third rebuilt temple for the Jews to offer sacrifices again after the Rapture of the Church can be literally seen in Daniel 27a:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,


But I have never been able to see it with a literal reading of the text.




MATTHEW 24:15,16
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Jesus in Matthew 24:15-18 gives the Jews instructions about what to do when they see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet in Daniel 9:26b, 27b, the destruction of the second temple and the city of Jerusalem:

Mt 24:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


He gives the same instructions in Mark:

Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.


In Luke Jesus gives the same instructions to the Jews that He has given in Matthew and Mark and further tells them that the abomination of desolation "standing where it ought not" is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, "the holy place":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


Jesus mentions nothing about a third temple being rebuilt for the antichrist and then destroyed after He Comes again for His Church.




Revelation 13:4-6


4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
The "tabernacle" spoken of in Revelation 13:6 is God's "His tabernacle".

We find God's tabernacle is in heaven; not a rebuilt 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem:

Rev 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:





Hi Shirley,
There is a referenc in the new testament to the temple that is built for the last week of Daniel 9:27 where the abomination of desolations sets himself up and seeks to be worshiped as God.


Revelation 11:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

This temple that John measures is the temple that is built before the abomination of desolations sets himself up in it as God. God measures out the temple and those who worship in it as His very own people but the outer court He has left to the Gentiles to trample under their feet.

At the moment the temple does not exist and there are no Jews who worship there either. Israel will rebuild another temple and the two witness will prophesy out side the temple for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

God Bless


John is told to measure a temple that is already there; not to build one. We don't see him with hammer and nails and saws and other tools he would need to build anything. Nothing is mentioned Dizzy about any rebuilt 3rd stone temple so an antichrist can make a peace treaty with the Jews to allow them to offer animal sacrifices again for their sins.


Shirley

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 03:55 PM
Hi Allegra.

But Daniel 11 ends with A, Epiphanes. "The end in that chapter refers to the "end time of a particular kings reign or downfall"
When Daniel 12 opens- THIS IS THE PROPHECY OF THE END TIMES.

Thank you for the clarification, but this poses a slight problem.

Daniel 12 opens with the declaration, "And at that time....". You see the problem? At what time? If Daniel 11 is about Antiocus Epiphanes, how does Daniel 12 skip from there to end times? If we read the text plainly, it would say (paraphrasing):

.......yet Antiocus Epiphanes shall come to his end and none shall help him (Da.11:45). And at the time Antiocus Epiphanes comes to his end, Michael shall stand up for the children of Israel, there shall be a time of trouble....(Da.12:1-).

Then Daniel sees two guys on opposite side of a river and one of them says, "How long 'till the end of these wonders" and the other guy says, "Until 3 1/2 times when the dispersion is ended...." (Da.12:6-7).

So far, you and Shirley and others have explained Daniel to be prophesying of events that are all in our past, but the resurrection of the just and unjust doesn't fit the time of Antiocus Epiphanes, as Da.12:1 plainly says it should.

I think we can agree that Daniel 12 is about a time in our future. So why couldn't other passages of Daniel have hidden meanings about times in our future?

JesusisGod
Dec 17th 2007, 04:19 PM
Hi Shirley.

Paul doesn't mention any type of stone temple nor the city of Jerusalem in 2 Thessalonians 2:4. He doesn't refer to the second temple then standing in Jerusalem as "the temple of God". Nor does he say anything about a future third stone temple that would be built so antichrist would have a temple to go into and somewhere to sit down on so that the Jews would finally understand that he was not their promised Messiah.
I don't think Paul was trying to show a situation where the Jews would recognize the man of sin as a false Christ. I think Pauls intention was to show that they would be deluded into thinking the man of sin is the Messiah.


Are you trying to fit 2 Thessalonians 2:4 into Daniel 9:27?
Not necessarily. I was trying to show that from Pauls time, the person he was speaking about doesn't seem to fit any former King in history. And since you and Allegra and others have explained many prophecies as having already occured, I was wondering if you think there are any other passages related to the individual Paul spoke of in 2 Thes.2?

ShirleyFord
Dec 17th 2007, 05:11 PM
Hi Shirley.

I don't think Paul was trying to show a situation where the Jews would recognize the man of sin as a false Christ. I think Pauls intention was to show that they would be deluded into thinking the man of sin is the Messiah.

Hi JiG,

Paul is writing to the local Church in Thessalonica that is outside of the nation of Israel which is a Gentile city in a Gentile nation. This local Thessalonian Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles who have already received their Messiah. The "man of sin" in 2 Thessalonians comes on the scene just before the day of the Lord, which Scripture proves is the Second Coming of Christ. He is not connected to the little horn of Daniel 8 and Daniel 11, who is a king in the Greecian Empire before the Messiah of Daniel and his people is ever born in Bethlehem. Nor is the "man of sin" connected in any way to the "he" of Daniel 9:27 who would confirm a future covenant with Daniel's people long after Daniel was dead and buried but alive spiritually in heaven.

Paul says nothing about the Thessalonian Church being deceived into believing that the man of sin was their Messiah. The Messiah had already come to Daniel's people, the Jews.


The true Christians of that Thessalonian Church wouldn't be deceived by the man of sin since Paul writes this to them in 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:



2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


They had already received the true Messiah, Jesus Christ, as their Lord and Savior.

It would be those, Paul said, in that Church who had an outward show of Christianity but inwardly, they were unsaved and refused Christ while at the same time pretending to saved and one with those in the Church who were indeed truly saved. They would be the ones deceived by the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.





Not necessarily. I was trying to show that from Pauls time, the person he was speaking about doesn't seem to fit any former King in history.

I agree. The man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2 doesn't fit any of the historical kings in the book of Daniel.


And since you and Allegra and others have explained many prophecies as having already occured, I was wondering if you think there are any other passages related to the individual Paul spoke of in 2 Thes.2?

Revelation 13 and Revelation 20:7-9.


Shirley

Allegra
Dec 17th 2007, 06:04 PM
Hi Allegra.

Thank you for the clarification, but this poses a slight problem.

Daniel 12 opens with the declaration, "And at that time....". You see the problem? At what time? If Daniel 11 is about Antiocus Epiphanes, how does Daniel 12 skip from there to end times? If we read the text plainly, it would say (paraphrasing):

.......yet Antiocus Epiphanes shall come to his end and none shall help him (Da.11:45). And at the time Antiocus Epiphanes comes to his end, Michael shall stand up for the children of Israel, there shall be a time of trouble....(Da.12:1-).

Then Daniel sees two guys on opposite side of a river and one of them says, "How long 'till the end of these wonders" and the other guy says, "Until 3 1/2 times when the dispersion is ended...." (Da.12:6-7).

So far, you and Shirley and others have explained Daniel to be prophesying of events that are all in our past, but the resurrection of the just and unjust doesn't fit the time of Antiocus Epiphanes, as Da.12:1 plainly says it should.

I think we can agree that Daniel 12 is about a time in our future. So why couldn't other passages of Daniel have hidden meanings about times in our future?
OK. First I want to say that I agree with the majority TEXTS for their title of Daniel 12.
Daniel 12:1 (New King James Version)



Prophecy of the End Time

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1 (New American Standard Bible)

Daniel 12
The Time of the End

1"Now at that time (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22083A))Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22083B))time of distress (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22083C))such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#cen-NASB-22083D))book, will be rescued. Cross references:
Daniel 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#en-NASB-22083) : Dan 10:13, 21; Rev 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2010:13,%2021;%20Rev%2012:7&version=49)
Daniel 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#en-NASB-22083) : Rev 7:14; 16:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%207:14;%2016:18&version=49)
Daniel 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#en-NASB-22083) : Jer 30:7; Ezek 5:9; Dan 9:12; Matt 24:21; Mark 13:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer%2030:7;%20Ezek%205:9;%20Dan%209:12;%20 Matt%2024:21;%20Mark%2013:19&version=49)
Daniel 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%2012:1;&version=49;#en-NASB-22083) : Dan 7:10; 10:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan%207:10;%2010:21&version=49)Daniel 12:1 (New International Version)

Daniel 12
The End Times

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Daniel 12:1 (King James Version)

Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 11:40 "And at the end time." This end time must consummate the events under consideration here. This "end time" is clearly defined as occurring during the time of this king.(Antiochus1V)
"At the time of the end." We can notice here that 11:40-45 seems to sum up what should occur in what is here appropriately called "the time of the end," the period when the predicted termination of this series of important events should arrive. "Yet he will come to his end and no one will help him," vs.45.
Antiochus took leave from Syria & visited Egypt- & never returned. There was no one to help him in Egypt.
The war with the forces of Antiochus continues, but Lysias the governor of Syria, in the absence of Antiochus, attacked the forces of Judas Maccabaeus. Judas defeated the Syrians at Emmaus.(O.T. Apocrypha,1 Macc.4)

One simple reason why Daniel's book, some chapters refer to different times then other chapters, we have to notice in general, when too Dan is given a particular vision. Some are in the first yr. of Darius, the third yr. of Belshazzar, third yr. of Cyrus (I'm not quoting exactly the yrs from the text) but to give an example. That has something to do with the unchronological order of Daniel's chapters.

Lastly, I don't agree with the Judgment being future. It's the Wheat & Tares, Sheep & Goats, Rev.20:11-15.
This is exactly Daniel's people.
The BOOKS were opened!:o
I have to run out. Will be back later.:)