PDA

View Full Version : What Jesus meant by Baptism and being Born Again



GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:53 AM
Why do most Christians think getting baptized by sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water is what Jesus meant when he said you must be born again? I don't remember Jesus saying that the thing with the water is how you actually are born again. I think the born again part in reference to the spirit means just believing in Jesus and God 's word. How is the water baptism to clean you of your sins any different then what some Christians get mad at Catholic Christians for when they confess sins to Priests to get rid of their sins? How else would the one thief on the cross next to Jesus go to heaven if that weren't the case? The Pharisees got made at Jesus for not washing his hands which from what I understand was the equivalent to them of washing your sins away. And how is all water not holy if God made it all?

Illumined
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:09 AM
Born-again

adj : spiritually reborn or converted; [syn: converted (http://bibleforums.org/search?q=converted), reborn (http://bibleforums.org/search?q=reborn)]
Source (http://bibleforums.org/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn): WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

John 3:3 (http://bibleforums.org/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3:3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[ 3:3 Or born from above; also in verse 7] "

Galatians 4:29 (http://bibleforums.org/../cgi-bin/bible?passage=GAL+4:29&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
……. born by the power of the Spirit…….

Re·birth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://bibleforums.org/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (r-bûrth, rbûrth)
A second or new birth.

John 3:5 (http://bibleforums.org/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3:5&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of ………the Spirit.


Isaiah 4:4
The Lord will wash away the filth..; he will cleanse…by a spirit [ Or the Spirit ]


Romans 8:9
…And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ

Titus 3:5:
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Re·gen·er·a·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-jn-rshn)
1. The act or process of regenerating or the state of being regenerated.
2. Spiritual or moral revival or rebirth.

Re·new ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-n, -ny)
To make new or as if new again; restore: renewed


Ezekiel 37:14
I will put my Spirit in you and you will live,....


Ezekiel 13:18
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; …..will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?


Luke 11:13 (http://bibleforums.org/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+11:13&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:14 AM
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me by posting those?

Illumined
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:32 AM
I think alot of people do not know what being 'born-again' ......IS

At best they think of some abstract principle ...or something

The fact is ......is that being born-again means that the Eternal living God Jesus Christ just physically stepped inside your body...For Real.

You are altered forever........never again will you be the same as you were before, even if you wanted to.

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:39 AM
I agree which is why I don't think people need to go through the sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water. It shows that its like you have to prove to people that you have been born again when all you have to do is prove to God you are and God knows when you are spiritually born again.

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:48 AM
Hi GJT
I agree which is why I don't think people need to go through the sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water. It shows that its like you have to prove to people that you have been born again when all you have to do is prove to God you are and God knows when you are spiritually born again.Maybe God wants those born again to prove it to people (including themselves). Why else does Paul remind Timothy of the time he made a good confession "in front of many witnesses"? Why else does Christ demand that we "acknowledge" him "before men"? Why else does Jesus demand "water and spirit"?
God bless
Steven

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:57 AM
I agree which is why I don't think people need to go through the sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water. It shows that its like you have to prove to people that you have been born again when all you have to do is prove to God you are and God knows when you are spiritually born again.

Greetings GJT,

Had you ever considered looking at water baptism as a "sign" of coming into the covenant body? In the same way circumcision in the Old was a "sign" of covenant membership, so too baptism is a "sign" pointing to that baptism of Christ which saves us. Every male eight days old (some reprobates like Esau, and Ishmael) received the "sign" under the old covenant, now every professing believer and their children receive the "sign" of covenant inclusion.

Water baptism was never intended to be an outward sign of an inward conversion, but rather an outward "sign" showing we take seriously God's covenant body (church), and His command to be baptized. Just as the OT Jews had the promises of God through His Word, so too the church has been given the promises through His Word, and all who come into covenant through the church come under the hearing of His Word, that is unto life to all who believe.

If you understand water baptism is a "sign" pointing to the real baptism that saves, and you take seriously the Lord's command to be baptized, then you can better understand why we follow the Lord's example in baptism.

Many Blessings,
RW

ajtony
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:01 AM
Hey GJT, My understanding is as yours - When we accept Jesus as Lord, repent of our sins and believe in Him we are saved, i.e. we receive the gift of salvation and we are 'born again' at this point. Getting baptised does not save a person (i.e.salvation) although I have heard some christians say that. I believe in 'believers baptism', i.e. we believe in the Lord Jesus and we then get baptised because this is a command of Jesus (Mathew 28:18-20). We are making a public commitment to Jesus, obeying Him, and declaring that when we come up from the water (or after the water is sprinkled or whatever) we have left our 'old' life behind - we are identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing magical about the water, the transformation should have taken place already if we are a true believer.

There are views that being baptised 'saves us from the world system of things' as opposed to salvation, witnessed by these 'confusing' verses.

'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.' Mark 16:16


'He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.' Acts 16:30-31

Sorry, but I am writing this off the top of my head (havent got my Bible with me) and it is late here (04.00 hrs). I hope this helps. I'm sure others will give more scripture verses on this subject.

Love in Jesus, ajtony

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:20 AM
Hi GJTMaybe God wants those born again to prove it to people (including themselves). Why else does Paul remind Timothy of the time he made a good confession "in front of many witnesses"? Why else does Christ demand that we "acknowledge" him "before men"? Why else does Jesus demand "water and spirit"?
God bless
Steven

But God doesn't say prove it to people so how do we know thats what he wants and how is that then not adding to his word? They need to prove it to themselves by following and accepting God. Paul and Timothy aren't God or Jesus. Where does he say do the water thing though to acknowledge him before man? Can't you acknowledge him before man in another way? How does he say we are supposed to acknowledge him? Jesus says water and spirit science says our bodies are made up of 90% water and the 10% of something they think might be our spirit or soul, but won't actually say. I wonder where science got that idea from? ;)

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:29 AM
I agree which is why I don't think people need to go through the sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water. It shows that its like you have to prove to people that you have been born again when all you have to do is prove to God you are and God knows when you are spiritually born again.

So you're ignoring Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38; and a whole host of other Scriptures exhorting water baptism?

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:41 AM
But God doesn't say prove it to people so how do we know thats what he wants and how is that then not adding to his word?Well Paul says it in Romans 6 and Colossians 2, so that's the same thing as God saying it as far as I'm concerned.


They need to prove it to themselves by following and accepting God. Paul and Timothy aren't God or Jesus. Where does he say do the water thing though to acknowledge him before man? Can't you acknowledge him before man in another way? How does he say we are supposed to acknowledge him? Jesus says water and spirit science says our bodies are made up of 90% water and the 10% of something they think might be our spirit or soul, but won't actually say. I wonder where science got that idea from? ;)Sorry but we don't have any common ground to discuss this if only the red-letters in the Bible are the word of God. Have a nice day :)
Steven

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:42 AM
Greetings GJT,

Had you ever considered looking at water baptism as a "sign" of coming into the covenant body? In the same way circumcision in the Old was a "sign" of covenant membership, so too baptism is a "sign" pointing to that baptism of Christ which saves us. Every male eight days old (some reprobates like Esau, and Ishmael) received the "sign" under the old covenant, now every professing believer and their children receive the "sign" of covenant inclusion.

Water baptism was never intended to be an outward sign of an inward conversion, but rather an outward "sign" showing we take seriously God's covenant body (church), and His command to be baptized. Just as the OT Jews had the promises of God through His Word, so too the church has been given the promises through His Word, and all who come into covenant through the church come under the hearing of His Word, that is unto life to all who believe.

If you understand water baptism is a "sign" pointing to the real baptism that saves, and you take seriously the Lord's command to be baptized, then you can better understand why we follow the Lord's example in baptism.

Many Blessings,
RW


Every time people describe different sects of Christianity as a covenant body or coven I think of witches coven, but not meaning i think of Christians as witches though. I heard pagans where doing this way of baptism before Christians and Jesus always spoke against them. You can look at a lot of things as a sign if you're looking at doing something like that as a sign. I could jump off the roof of a car and say its a sign, but is it really a sign if I don't feel it in spirit and act in front of people like I do? I don't mean act like boasting, but people can see it in my actions.

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:56 AM
I heard pagans where doing this way of baptism before Christians and Jesus always spoke against them. Not pagans, Jews. In the OT they had baptos, washing. Jesus and John were the first to coin baptisma, washing-ism. The verb baptizw (to conduct baptos or baptisma) exists in the OT, but baptisma doesn't.

Baptisma, like many isms, requires both physical and spiritual components - see Titus 3:5 to underscore John 3:5.

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:02 AM
Not pagans, Jews. In the OT they had baptos, washing. Jesus and John were the first to coin baptisma, washing-ism. The verb baptizw (to conduct baptos or baptisma) exists in the OT, but baptisma doesn't.

Baptisma, like many isms, requires both physical and spiritual components - see Titus 3:5 to underscore John 3:5.

And excellent point.

If baptism is pointless, unnecessary and of no meaning, why are we called to do it?

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:04 AM
So you're ignoring Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38; and a whole host of other Scriptures exhorting water baptism?

Where in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 does it say that baptizing by sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water is what constitutes as actually being baptized?

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:12 AM
Not pagans, Jews. In the OT they had baptos, washing. Jesus and John were the first to coin baptisma, washing-ism. The verb baptizw (to conduct baptos or baptisma) exists in the OT, but baptisma doesn't.

Baptisma, like many isms, requires both physical and spiritual components - see Titus 3:5 to underscore John 3:5.

No, I know Jews where doing it to, but I heard pagans where also. And Jesus didn't believe that when Jews did it it really counted so then why would he say just when Christians do it its okay? How do we know that physical part doesn't mean in our actions which would also count as acknowledging God in front of man? Jesus doesn't give a specific order that you do these in either.

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 04:16 AM
And excellent point.

If baptism is pointless, unnecessary and of no meaning, why are we called to do it?

I didn't say its pointless, unnecessary and of no meaning or that baptism shouldn't be done. That wasn't the point I was making at all.

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:51 AM
Hi GJT
No, I know Jews where doing it to, but I heard pagans where also. Can I ask, where did you hear this?

Not pagans, Jews. In the OT they had baptos, washing. Jesus and John were the first to coin baptisma, washing-ism. The verb baptizw (to conduct baptos or baptisma) exists in the OT, but baptisma doesn't.

Baptisma, like many isms, requires both physical and spiritual components - see Titus 3:5 to underscore John 3:5.And Jesus didn't believe that when Jews did it it really counted so then why would he say just when Christians do it its okay? please reread what I posted - Jews didn't do baptisma, the word baptisma doesn't even exist prior to John.
Steven

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:50 AM
Hi GJTCan I ask, where did you hear this?please reread what I posted - Jews didn't do baptisma, the word baptisma doesn't even exist prior to John.
Steven

Just google "pagan baptism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism

Immersion is required for converts to Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek) as part of their conversion to cleanse them from former practices.But I just found that in Matthew 3:13-17 shows Jesus was baptized fully immersed in water by John the baptist and God saying he was pleased by this which confirms that God accepts it. So now the question is the water baptisim mandatory, because how else would the thief on the cross get to go to heaven without doing it and does this mean you have to be fully immersed for the baptism to count or are there many physical ways you can be baptized. Which shows that all you have do is physically in you actions show that you have been baptized, because Jesus humbled himself in front of people when John the baptist said he didn't think he was worthy to baptize him. Did Jesus preform or someone else preform a baptism maybe on the thief?

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:43

Steven3
Oct 22nd 2007, 08:59 AM
GJT
Just google "pagan baptism".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism
I did, and looked at the link, which doesn't mention "pagan baptism", not surprisingly.

Immersion is required for converts to Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ger_tzedek) as part of their conversion to cleanse them from former practices. Yes. But, again for the third time ;), BAPTOS washing is OT, but BAPTISMA washing-ism did not exist prior to John and NT.

The thief on the cross was clearly Jewish, therefore circumcised, and under the Old Covenant. The proof is that he asked for Christ to "remember me when you come in your kingdom" -Luke 23:42- a request that shows he had far better knowledge of the Bible than both Pharisees and many modern Christians. However ;) let's just say that the thief was a Gentile, one with spectacular advance faith in the Acts Gospel, wouldn't we all agree that being nailed to a cross is a more convincing excuse for not getting baptised than "I didn't do it because I don't agree with John 3:3,5".
God bless
Steven

Sold Out
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:04 PM
I agree which is why I don't think people need to go through the sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water. It shows that its like you have to prove to people that you have been born again when all you have to do is prove to God you are and God knows when you are spiritually born again.


Jesus commanded us to be baptized after we are saved. It's a step of obedience. I was saved at 6, but not baptized until 26. I didn't grow up in a Christian home, so I wasn't really aware that I needed to be baptized until I was an adult...but when the awareness came...the Holy Spirit didn't leave me alone. I truly believe that God could not use me the way He wanted to until I followed Him in obedience through baptism.

BTW...Jesus cannot be referring to water baptism in John 3 when he was speaking to Nicodemus. First, he told Nicodemus that being born again was not a new doctrine.(Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?) and, if Jesus was speaking of baptism, this would have applied to Nicodemus, who was considered OT, and there was no baptism in the OT.

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:05 PM
I didn't say its pointless, unnecessary and of no meaning or that baptism shouldn't be done. That wasn't the point I was making at all.

Fair enough. Thank you!

What was your point?

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:12 PM
Jesus commanded us to be baptized after we are saved. It's a step of obedience. I was saved at 6, but not baptized until 26. I didn't grow up in a Christian home, so I wasn't really aware that I needed to be baptized until I was an adult...but when the awareness came...the Holy Spirit didn't leave me alone. I truly believe that God could not use me the way He wanted to until I followed Him in obedience through baptism.

BTW...Jesus cannot be referring to water baptism in John 3 when he was speaking to Nicodemus. First, he told Nicodemus that being born again was not a new doctrine.(Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?) and, if Jesus was speaking of baptism, this would have applied to Nicodemus, who was considered OT, and there was no baptism in the OT.

Actually, though I'm being kind of a nit-picky dink here, please humor me for a few moments...

Jesus didn't command us to be baptized after we are saved.

In reference to Nicodemus and John 3, what do you suppose Jesus was referring to when he said "born of the water and spirit"?

And actually yes, there was baptism in the Old Testament. Part of the process of proselytes converting to Judaism was baptism. That's one of the reasons Christians are baptized "in the name of Jesus".

Sold Out
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:29 PM
[quote=jeffreys;1417171]Actually, though I'm being kind of a nit-picky dink here, please humor me for a few moments...

Jesus didn't command us to be baptized after we are saved.




Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

How can one be a disciple and not be saved? Jesus clearly says we make them a disciple (follower/imitator) of HIM, then baptize them.




In reference to Nicodemus and John 3, what do you suppose Jesus was referring to when he said "born of the water and spirit"?

Water - Physical birth
Spirit - Spiritual birth.

Note Jesus never says we are born AGAIN of water...He only says we are born twice - once by the physical birth and once by the spiritual birth. The method of being born again is by the Holy Spirit. We have no part in our own birth. Just as we do not birth ourselves physically, we do not birth ourselves spiritually. The Holy Spirit does the 'birthing'.



And actually yes, there was baptism in the Old Testament. Part of the process of proselytes converting to Judaism was baptism. That's one of the reasons Christians are baptized "in the name of Jesus".

Can you prove this scripturally?

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 01:48 PM
Jesus said in Matthew 28:19, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

How can one be a disciple and not be saved? Jesus clearly says we make them a disciple (follower/imitator) of HIM, then baptize them.





Water - Physical birth
Spirit - Spiritual birth.

Note Jesus never says we are born AGAIN of water...He only says we are born twice - once by the physical birth and once by the spiritual birth. The method of being born again is by the Holy Spirit. We have no part in our own birth. Just as we do not birth ourselves physically, we do not birth ourselves spiritually. The Holy Spirit does the 'birthing'.




Can you prove this scripturally?I think you're taking some liberties with the "order" of the Great Commission that really aren't warranted. I don't think it's a huge deal, but honestly suspect the order is hardly the point. I ran across this on a BibleGateway commentary. I think it stated it quite nicely:
Jesus' instructions include an imperative (a command) surrounded by three participial clauses: one should make disciples for Jesus by going, baptizing and teaching. Making disciples involves more than getting people to an altar; it involves training them as thoroughly as Jewish teachers instructed their own students. Most of modern Christendom falls far short on this count. http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=1&source=1&seq=i.47.28.4


In John 3, I seriously doubt Jesus is using water to talk of physical birth. In fact, he makes it crystal clear that he is NOT talking about physical birth with Nicodemus. Our mothers' "water" is almost certainly not was Jesus was speaking of here.


Concerning Old Testament Baptism - here are some links & quotes:
http://cgca.net/coglinks/origin/HistoryofBaptism.html

“Water is the element naturally used for cleansing the body and its symbolical use entered into almost every cult, and into none more completely than the Jewish, whose ceremonial washings were proverbial” (“Baptism”, International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Vol 1, page 418).
The Dead Sea Scrolls also depict the baptism ritual as something practised by much of Jewry at that time. To this day Jews practice baptism for both male and female converts who immerse themselves in a ritual bath (Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, 1991, page 625).

Long before the Jews practised baptism, pre-Christian baptism is found in the Old Testament. For instance, the passing of Israel through the Red Sea on the final Day of Unleavened Bread, was likened to a baptism by Paul (ICor 10:1-2). And further baptismal and resurrection typology may be found in the crossing of the Jordan River which was a type of entering the Kingdom of God followed by pulling down the strongholds of the enemy (Joshua 3:15-17; IICor 10:4).

In the Wilderness, at the Tabernacle, the Levites were cleansed via sprinkling of water – a type of baptism – to purify them in preparation in service to God and man (Num 8:6-7,11,21). Similarly Christians must be cleansed and sanctified by sprinkling (Heb 10:22; ICor 11:28; IICor 7:1; Titus 2:14).

Further, the Levites had to be bathed or washed clean in water in Ex 29:4 “one of the ceremonial washings referred to in Heb. 6.2, and rendered “baptisms”” (Bullinger, Companion Bible, page 113). Similarly, Christians have been baptised and must be ‘baptised’ by the washing of the spirit each and every day until they die (ICor 6:11; IICor 7:1; Eph 5:25-26). And by connecting Titus 3:5 with IICor 4: 16 and Eph 4:22-24 we can see that we must be washed clean each day by the water and the blood.

Other washing rituals may be found in Lev 14:9; Num 19:18 which are evidently types of Christian cleansing and purification at baptism. Not just the baptism with water upon repentance. But daily washings of the Spirit of God.
http://www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/articles/rethinking_scriptures/baptism_and_old_testament.html


But there is even more. The Jews went beyond the teachings of Moses concerning ritual washings and required those who converted to Judaism to also be immersed in water. “For the Jews required three things of strangers who declared themselves to be converts to the Law of Moses: circumcision, baptism, and to offer sacrifice if they were men: the two latter if they were women” (“baptism,” International Standard Bible Encyclopedia). We have usually recognized the need for converts to Judaism to be circumcised if they were males. But immersion and sacrifice were also needed to be part of Judaism. This also explains why there were so many pools in Jerusalem in the early centuries. Therefore we see that the Jews were very familiar with the need to be immersed in water.



edit: Sorry, I somehow screwed up the quote thing...

Sold Out
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:05 PM
In John 3, I seriously doubt Jesus is using water to talk of physical birth. In fact, he makes it crystal clear that he is NOT talking about physical birth with Nicodemus. Our mothers' "water" is almost certainly not was Jesus was speaking of here.


Can you prove that He is not referring to the physical birth (water)?




Concerning Old Testament Baptism - here are some links & quotes:
http://cgca.net/coglinks/origin/HistoryofBaptism.html
http://www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/articles/rethinking_scriptures/baptism_and_old_testament.html





I don't see any scriptural evidence here of baptism in the Old Testament.

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 02:22 PM
Can you prove that He is not referring to the physical birth (water)?


I don't see any scriptural evidence here of baptism in the Old Testament.

About the physical birth, in John 3. I cannot "prove it", no - anymore than you can "prove" that he IS referring to physical birth. But the logic is pretty simple. Nicodemus refers to "entering again into his mother's womb", and Jesus makes it perfectly clear that that is not what he's talking about.


And about Baptism in the Old Testament... the evidence of that comes from extra-Biblical sources. If you would like to reject them, out of hand, that is certainly your choice. I simply provided you several sources for the information.

GJT
Oct 22nd 2007, 03:51 PM
"I didn't do it because I don't agree with John 3:3,5"

I'm not saying we should not be baptized or if they don't agree with it they shouldn't. We should find out the real meaning of what Jesus meant by being born again in the physical sense. If we just do the water thing then how's that not idolatry?

Sold Out
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:10 PM
[quote=jeffreys;1417226]About the physical birth, in John 3. I cannot "prove it", no - anymore than you can "prove" that he IS referring to physical birth. But the logic is pretty simple. Nicodemus refers to "entering again into his mother's womb", and Jesus makes it perfectly clear that that is not what he's talking about.


Again, you are asserting that He isn't referencing the natural/physical birth (water), when in your statement above you agree that He is. Jesus is contrasting the two births...the physical & spiritual. Remember, Jesus NEVER said born AGAIN of water & spirit...He only said a man must be born again, then He goes on to contrast the two births.



And about Baptism in the Old Testament... the evidence of that comes from extra-Biblical sources. If you would like to reject them, out of hand, that is certainly your choice. I simply provided you several sources for the information.

I can't see how anyone would want to hinge a doctrine as important as salvation by grace (or baptism, as I think you see it) on extra-biblical resources.

jeffreys
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:13 PM
[quote]
Again, you are asserting that He isn't referencing the natural/physical birth (water), when in your statement above you agree that He is. Jesus is contrasting the two births...the physical & spiritual. Remember, Jesus NEVER said born AGAIN of water & spirit...He only said a man must be born again, then He goes on to contrast the two births.




I can't see how anyone would want to hinge a doctrine as important as salvation by grace (or baptism, as I think you see it) on extra-biblical resources.I think you need to re-read what I wrote about Jesus NOT referring to natural birth, when he was speaking of "water".

And as for the "baptism of converts into Judaism", I am not hinging any doctrine on that. I'm simply citing the fact that baptism of proselytes into the Jewish faith was a known practice. You kept saying, "Prove it", so I did. The Jews knew about baptism - just not baptism into Jesus.

losthorizon
Oct 22nd 2007, 11:52 PM
Where in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 does it say that baptizing by sprinkling, pouring, or immersion of water is what constitutes as actually being baptized?
“And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)In the “Great Commission,” Jesus commanded His disciples to “preach the gospel to all creation”. This gospel message included the command to believe and be baptized (immersed in water) and those who obey this command “shall be saved”. The ordinance of Christian baptism is the initiation rite that puts the penitent believer “into Christ Jesus”.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter preached this same gospel when he told those 3000 souls who were convinced in their hearts that Jesus was the Christ to - "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). He commanded baptism because baptism was a necessary part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sold Out
Oct 23rd 2007, 03:23 PM
[quote=Sold Out;1417476]I think you need to re-read what I wrote about Jesus NOT referring to natural birth, when he was speaking of "water".

.

Basically neither one of us can prove 'conclusively' whether or not Jesus is speaking of the natural/physical birth or water baptism. But we have to look at the context of the passage in light of many other variables.

jeffreys
Oct 23rd 2007, 06:08 PM
[quote=jeffreys;1417792]

Basically neither one of us can prove 'conclusively' whether or not Jesus is speaking of the natural/physical birth or water baptism. But we have to look at the context of the passage in light of many other variables.

Precisely. Thanks!

Steven3
Oct 25th 2007, 02:14 AM
I'm not saying we should not be baptized or if they don't agree with it they shouldn't. We should find out the real meaning of what Jesus meant by being born again in the physical sense. If we just do the water thing then how's that not idolatry?

Hi GJT
This is what bugs me a bit about these anti-baptism threads, I have the impression (which I am not saying is the case in your case ;)) that it often turns out to be people who themselves are baptised, just stirring up doubt and trouble that might prevent others doing as Jesus did. I'd find it more credible from someone who themselves was not baptised.

Hi Sold-Out
The text means what it says I'm afraid:

born = born
born again = born again (or 'from above', same thing in Greek)
born of flesh = born of flesh
born of water = born of water
born of spirit = born of spirit
born of water and spirit = born of water and spirit

There is no instance in Greek (or Hebrew) literature of "born of water" meaning "born (from the mother's womb)". The dialogue of Jesus and Nicodemus proves that such a reading is not possible.
God bless
Steven