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View Full Version : Dead In Sin... Alive in Christ (carried over from another thread)



ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 05:52 PM
Roger posted this in another thread and I figured to save that other thread from going TOTALLY off the main point... I'd just bring it to another thread! I won't put it in quotations so as to make it easy for others to respond to. So everything after this point is Rogers post.
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Why does God permit sin to exist in Christians? Christ has given us the Holy Spirit to dwell in our hearts to help us, and guide us in this life, and yet we still have a tendency, sometimes even a desire to have our own way, and sin against God...why? Yes Scripture is replete with admonitions to put away all sin, and to walk in the Spirit, that we sin not, yet we still tend to walk by the flesh often and commit sin...again, why?

Your argument sounds a little like the one Paul encounters asking, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" The answer Paul gives to this rhertorical question is, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" In his answer Paul shows us that the sanctification of the believer rests on the same foundation as his justification, e.g. union with Christ! When we are actually one with Christ we can no more be an ally of sin (live any longer therein) than Christ can, for we are truly one with Him. Does that mean we can never sin again? The answer of course is no...but why?

When we are one with Christ we are confessing that we are identified with Him, in His death, burial and resurrection. We are dead to our old life; it is buried, and we rise to walk as new creatures with new hearts, new principles, and a new life. Does that mean that we are no longer able, ready and sometimes even willing to participate in sin?

What assurance do we have from God that though we sin, we are not condemned?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrigheousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we find the answer to the OP, "Does God change your mind"? Did God change David's mind when he confessed he had sinned against God? Of course God did! God convicted David in the same way He convicts all of His elect who fall into various sins against the Almighty. David's sin was pardoned, paid for, put away, and David received chastisement, as a son of God. When we sin we do not fear condemnation and death on account of it, nor do we have fellowship with sin, nor will we permit sin to reign over us any longer. That does not mean, that like David, we will never sin again. It means we rest assured in the grace God has bestowed upon us, knowing that when we are weak, and fall into various trial and temptation we can cry out to God to deliver us from evil, because we know the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mt 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The words of James help us to understand a little better why God providentially allows His elect to fall into various temptations.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

We are providentially brought under these trials by the hand of our heavenly Father, Who will work all things together for our good. If we receive no chastening from the Lord we are counted not as sons, but as bastards, for whom the Lord loves He chastens. If we fall into no trial or temptations there is no reason for chanstening, which serves to yield righteousness in those who receive it.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Faith must be tried, for it can only be proved by trial. If our faith is not tried through manifold temptation how can we know if our faith be counterfeit? Trials are given us that we learn to depend on the Lord, and not on the flesh. Trials not only reveal our faith, but they work, bring out and encourage patience (Ro 5:3). God providentially tries His children so that we might possess the fruit of the Spirit.

Does God change my mind? Praise and glory be to God, indeed He does, and may He never cease to bring my mind into captivity that I may always know what is His good and perfect will.

Excellent question! I pray that many here reflect deeply upon the answer to this God honoring post.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Oct 22nd 2007, 06:18 PM
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?" The answer Paul gives to this rhertorical question is, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" In his answer Paul shows us that the sanctification of the believer rests on the same foundation as his justification, e.g. union with Christ! When we are actually one with Christ we can no more be an ally of sin (live any longer therein) than Christ can, for we are truly one with Him. Does that mean we can never sin again? The answer of course is no...but why?

Here's what Paul said.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 ¶Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

He then continues

Romans 6:15 ¶What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul was in no form nor fashion saying that sin happens nor was Paul telling us that sin was in anyway a step towards positive growth in grace. Matter of fact... Paul said "May it never be!" This leaves no excuse for sin at all in truth. You are dead to sin... been free of it. If you are obedient to sin then sin is your master. Simple as that really.



When we are one with Christ we are confessing that we are identified with Him, in His death, burial and resurrection. We are dead to our old life; it is buried, and we rise to walk as new creatures with new hearts, new principles, and a new life. Does that mean that we are no longer able, ready and sometimes even willing to participate in sin?

What assurance do we have from God that though we sin, we are not condemned?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrigheousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. But notice how that first verse begins in that second chapter... writing this to you so that you don't sin. BUT IF... if you do then you have an advocate with the Father. While we often say "Christian's will sin"... we need to make sure that folks know the truth. Sin needs to be the rarity and not the norm. Instead of saying "you are going to sin no matter what" (which you won't find in Scripture) we should instead say "become sober minded as you ought and stop sinning."