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mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:12 PM
...........but the Spirit gives life. 2nd Corinthians 3:6

What is the letter that kills?

AlainaJ
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:19 PM
...........but the Spirit gives life. 2nd Corinthians 3:6

What is the letter that kills?
Hi-
The letter is the Old Mosaic law. The law was given to show us our sins. But it could not take away our sins.

Rom.7 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5036197)


[6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.The Holy Spirit, through the New Testament has replaced the law. Men are no longer declared righteous by keeping certain laws, but by being born again in Christ Jesus.

Rom.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5023607)


[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom.10 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5049019)


[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.Christ is the fufilment of the Law.

I hope this helps:) It is often hard to type your thoughts out:)

God Bless

mikebr
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:24 PM
OK how does it kill? The wages of sin is death? Is the Law sin?

markedward
Oct 23rd 2007, 09:26 PM
OK how does it kill? The wages of sin is death? Is the Law sin?Being under the Law kills one spiritually. It sentences them to death for their sins. Being of the Spirit gives life to one spiritually. It takes away the death sentence required by the Law.

The Law itself is not sin, but it makes people responsible for their sins. And even without the written Law, we still have the Law of our heart (our conscience), so even if we did not have the written Law, we would still be responsible to what we naturally know what is right and wrong.

Sold Out
Oct 24th 2007, 01:04 PM
OK how does it kill? The wages of sin is death? Is the Law sin?

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead." Romans 7:7,8

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 24th 2007, 01:52 PM
The letter kills.... the Spirit gives life:

To me the Law points out my sin. If i take it to heart (allow it to be written on my heart), then the that Law quickens my Spirit and becomes known to me (understanding and wisdom setting in), and when i then follow that instruction of the Spirit, i do no longer die due the Letter of the Law, which only served to condemn (pointing out my sin, showing me to be guilty), but i gain life by following the instructions of the Spirit.

I hope this makes sense to you mikebr

Consider following scriptures in connection with what i wrote:

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive (sin emphasis mine), so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self,


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (law of sin being that it would bring you the wrath of God, while the Law of the Spirit releases you from the bondage of sin)

Through Yeshua the sins we will still commit, (because we are human and fallible) are covered through His blood, this does not absolve us from our responsibility to allow the Law to be written on our hearts by searching out God's instructions (without knowing what He said about anything we cannot learn) The Spirit then speaks to us reminding us of Laws and convicting us of wrongdoing, so thhat we can repent and correct our behavior which leads to life, and therefore come to Yeshua and ask for forgiveness.

2Co 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.


Shalom my friend,
Tanja

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2007, 02:02 PM
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead." Romans 7:7,8And what is this saying actually?
Is the law sin? No. But the law causes us to know what sin is. It defines it, exposes it, uncovers it.
Without the law, we do not know what sin is. Once we know what it is, we are responsible what what we do. And once we become responsible, we also become guilty. Thus, the letter of the law 'brings' death to us.
The Holy Spirit did not replace the law, incidentally, as someone mentioned earlier. Instead, He wrote it upon our hearts.
How are we delivered from the law? The penalty of the law which we have broken has been paid, if we will accept it. We can choose whether to allow the work of Christ on the cross to pay for our sin, or we can pay for our sin ourself. Either way, the law is satisfied.
If we choose Christ, then the law is fulfilled for us, the penalty is paid, and we are no longer 'under' the curse of the law, which is death. We are set free from that penalty.
Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. In other words, our righteousness is no longer found in trying to obey the law, but rather our righteousness is found in Christ. That in no way, however, means that the law is done away. Christ said the law would remain. Only our method of gaining righteousness has changed, through Christ instead of the law.
But the law is not sin, as Paul said. And doing the law is not sin. The law is written upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit, so that we desire to walk in obedience, knowing all the while that when we fail and break the law, Christ has already paid it's penalty.
The law says to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. How could it be sin to obey that? The law says Do not kill, and Christ said do not even be angry without a cause. How can it now be sin to obey that? Shall we go kill now?
There is a difference, incidentally, in the law of God and the law of Moses. Moses' law included the law of God, but the law of God existed before the law of Moses. The sabbath law, for instance, began on the seventh day of creation. Thou shalt not kill began when Cain killed his brother. Clean and unclean animals was understood by Noah. Abraham obeyed the law of God. All of these predated Moses by quite a bit.
Moses' law, which included the commands of God, also included all the laws required to establish and maintain a theocratic national government, and it included the ordinances for Temple service. Most of those have been set aside or changed, because they were part of the old covenant with Israel, and the old covenant has ceased, and the new covenant has replaced it. The new covenant says that WE now are the temple, and our 'temple' service is focused inwardly, toward the 'mercy seat' in our hearts, where God is now enthroned and dwells with us.

AlainaJ
Oct 24th 2007, 02:48 PM
And what is this saying actually?
Is the law sin? No. But the law causes us to know what sin is. It defines it, exposes it, uncovers it.
Without the law, we do not know what sin is. Once we know what it is, we are responsible what what we do. And once we become responsible, we also become guilty. Thus, the letter of the law 'brings' death to us.
The Holy Spirit did not replace the law, incidentally, as someone mentioned earlier. Instead, He wrote it upon our hearts.
How are we delivered from the law? The penalty of the law which we have broken has been paid, if we will accept it. We can choose whether to allow the work of Christ on the cross to pay for our sin, or we can pay for our sin ourself. Either way, the law is satisfied.
If we choose Christ, then the law is fulfilled for us, the penalty is paid, and we are no longer 'under' the curse of the law, which is death. We are set free from that penalty.
Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. In other words, our righteousness is no longer found in trying to obey the law, but rather our righteousness is found in Christ. That in no way, however, means that the law is done away. Christ said the law would remain. Only our method of gaining righteousness has changed, through Christ instead of the law.
Moses' law, which included the commands of God, also included all the laws required to establish and maintain a theocratic national government, and it included the ordinances for Temple service. Most of those have been set aside or changed, because they were part of the old covenant with Israel, and the old covenant has ceased, and the new covenant has replaced it. The new covenant says that WE now are the temple, and our 'temple' service is focused inwardly, toward the 'mercy seat' in our hearts, where God is now enthroned and dwells with us.


Excellent post...:)

The law shows us why we needed Christ to come and die. Christ is now our way to righteousness- by loving and obeying him.

ravi4u2
Oct 24th 2007, 02:57 PM
But the law causes us to know what sin is. It defines it, exposes it, uncovers it. Without the law, we do not know what sin is. When I was a Hindu, I did not even know what the 10 commandments were. But somehow, when I was overcome with the Spirit of God (without having read the Bible at all. Without knowing much more than Jesus is also a god), I knew that I was a sinner and needed a Savior. Even when I was a Hindu, I had knowledge of being a sinner and partook of all the rituals and ceremonies to rid myself of sins. How are all these possible when I did not know the 'law'?

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 24th 2007, 03:51 PM
ravi4u2,

Because every human has a conscience... that conscience bears witness:

Rom 2:14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves.
Rom 2:15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them

You may have realized that you needed a savior, and that it was Yeshuia that was your Savior.
But did you know then that the Law commands that if someone robs you to give them your cloak also, or likewise, did you then also know without ever having read the scriptures that if you called someone a fool you'd be in danger of hellfire? Did you know then without having read scriptures that you would be: Deu 23:21 If you make a vow to the Lord your God, do not postpone fulfilling it; for the Lord your God will surely require it of you, and you would incur guilt.
Deu 23:22 But if you refrain from vowing, you will not incur guilt.

Shalom,
Tanja

Kahtar
Oct 24th 2007, 04:14 PM
When I was a Hindu, I did not even know what the 10 commandments were. But somehow, when I was overcome with the Spirit of God (without having read the Bible at all. Without knowing much more than Jesus is also a god), I knew that I was a sinner and needed a Savior. Even when I was a Hindu, I had knowledge of being a sinner and partook of all the rituals and ceremonies to rid myself of sins. How are all these possible when I did not know the 'law'?Before we learn the law of God, before it is written upon our hearts, we still have a sense of right and wrong, mostly by whatever our parents instill into us. But, as the previous poster said, there are many things that are against God's law that we are not aware of until we hear, or read, the law of God.
How did you know you were a sinner? Did you come searching for God, or did God come searching for you? What drew you to Christ? Did God know what decision you would make about Christ?
You came as we all come, drawn by the Holy Spirit, even before we know Him or even know of Him.

AlainaJ
Oct 24th 2007, 04:49 PM
Before we learn the law of God, before it is written upon our hearts, we still have a sense of right and wrong, mostly by whatever our parents instill into us. But, as the previous poster said, there are many things that are against God's law that we are not aware of until we hear, or read, the law of God.
How did you know you were a sinner? Did you come searching for God, or did God come searching for you? What drew you to Christ? Did God know what decision you would make about Christ?
You came as we all come, drawn by the Holy Spirit, even before we know Him or even know of Him.
Amen- before salvation I really thought I was a "good" person, like most people. I never would have said I was a sinner who deserved to go to Hell.

I never looked for God- although I beleived in a God- But one day, the Holy Spirit reached out to me...praise the Lord!

Now I fall on my knees and thnak God for saving me- I can see how lost I was. Darkess became light.

What a wonderful God!

ravi4u2
Oct 24th 2007, 06:24 PM
Because every human has a conscience... that conscience bears witness:


Before we learn the law of God, before it is written upon our hearts, we still have a sense of right and wrong, mostly by whatever our parents instill into us. But, as the previous poster said, there are many things that are against God's law that we are not aware of until we hear, or read, the law of God.
How did you know you were a sinner? Did you come searching for God, or did God come searching for you? What drew you to Christ? Did God know what decision you would make about Christ?
You came as we all come, drawn by the Holy Spirit, even before we know Him or even know of Him.

I agree with Tanja here, every man has a conscience, that points him to the right and the wrong. Whatever our parents instill on us, is also based on their conscience. But what is sin? Is it merely a list of 'rights' and 'wrongs'? If it were so, then I have always known that murder, covetousness, lies, adultery, fornication, stealing...were all sin, even without knowing the law. But is being a sinner more than the list?

Sold Out
Oct 24th 2007, 06:27 PM
When I was a Hindu, I did not even know what the 10 commandments were. But somehow, when I was overcome with the Spirit of God (without having read the Bible at all. Without knowing much more than Jesus is also a god), I knew that I was a sinner and needed a Savior. Even when I was a Hindu, I had knowledge of being a sinner and partook of all the rituals and ceremonies to rid myself of sins. How are all these possible when I did not know the 'law'?

The 'law' was written on your heart.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Romans 2:14,15

Jew or Gentile - Paul is saying we are all accountable to a 'law', which condemns us.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 24th 2007, 06:37 PM
Yes, being a sinner is more than just the list, as Yeshua explained the true spirit of the Law, and just how high that bar really is when He said: "You have heard it said, but i say unto you"
It's having the Law in our hearts and understanding it in detail, and depth. This is why the Jews of Yeshua's time who were going by a set of rules and not understanding the depth of each Law and just following it in a mechanical fashion set by tradition were hypocrites. They despite their legalistic observance were no closer to the kingdom of God than an unrepentant sinner.

And this is why the Law of the OT comes to life in my heart and brings me life, because i live it out by the Spirit defining the depth, giving me understanding of the Instruction and commands God gave.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 24th 2007, 06:43 PM
The 'law' was written on your heart.
The Law isn't written onto our hearts until the Holy Spirit gives us that understanding and wisdom to desire to follow it.
You can compare that to a child who will disobey a parent until realization sets in that what the parent was teaching was for their own wellbeing and safety.

Like a parent saying to a child,:"Don't touch, this is hot" A child doesn't understand until it experiences it, or if it listens to a parent, grows older and comes to understand and appreciate the instruction given.

Knowledge of good and evil.. remember ? God tried to have us learn the easy way which would have been to obey, and in time with maturity, knowledge would have set in, but Adam and Eve learned the hard way like many of us still do these days.

Shalom,
Tanja