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TSP
Oct 24th 2007, 11:34 AM
What is wrong with this organization? Yesterday a friend of mine invited me and another friend to a lodge dinner. They showed a few movies and it didnít look like anything bad. They are not really considered a secret society anymore because they keep the doors opened at all time where you can sign in and join. My friend signed up, however i thought i would talk to my father and of coarse you guys. My father said the only reason why he could see anyone signing up is for the job factor and how it being so hard to find a job in economy right now Masons can get you jobs right away and for school scholarships as well. But he admits he doesnít know too much about it. Can someone shed some real information about it please? I want to see legit reasons not something this is Satanís tool to get you away from God. You canít even join the Masons unless you express a belief in God. Someone please help me to understand why it is frowned upon.

Frances
Oct 24th 2007, 06:18 PM
Freemasons like to appear to worship Almighty God, but in fact worship Lucifer - but, I understand from those who have researched the organisation those folk in the 'lower' degrees do not know this; entering each higher 'degree' involves oaths and curses and secret words. A friend who came out of, and renounced, Masonry told of false communions and mockery of the redemptive Work of Jesus Christ.

The only personal knowledge I have is that, about 10 (?) years ago, a prayer partner was very distressed as her husband insisted on keeping his father's Masonic 'regalia' in the garage; her daughter, whose bedroom was over the garage, was subject to violent temper tantrums, and often after a happy family day out, as soon as the family car turned into the drive facing the garage, arguments would break out for no apparent reason. One day my PP's daughter tried to throw her down the stairs to kill her, but was prevented with difficulty by her 16 year old, 6 foot heavily built brother. At that point my PP the regalia was disposed of . . . only because her 16 year old son was still shaking 2 hours after the incident, when he told his father what had happened - then the violent temper tantrums and arguments in this Christian family stopped.

I have often wondered if her husband's mental breakdown a short while later could have been related . . .

I<3Jesus
Oct 24th 2007, 06:28 PM
I want to say I watched a show or read an account of a person who "infiltrated" their organization who said it was devil worship, but I honestly cannot remember. I wish I could remember where I heard it. I am of no help, sorry.

TSP
Oct 24th 2007, 06:32 PM
I did research and I dont want anything to do with this stuff. I am so scared i almost bought into it. I swear you guys it looked so awesome, but I dont want to join anything that has to do with secrets and so on. I feel a little shook up actually.

threebigrocks
Oct 24th 2007, 06:36 PM
If evil is going to lure you in, it's not going to appear evil or you would turn tail and run. ;)

TSP
Oct 24th 2007, 07:07 PM
yea your right. I was so close to joining man, i just cant shake the thought.

Semi-tortured
Oct 24th 2007, 07:43 PM
yea your right. I was so close to joining man, i just cant shake the thought.


Take comfort in the fact that you didn't. It probably means the Holy Spirit was guiding you away.

stillforgiven
Oct 24th 2007, 08:45 PM
We did a study on this in my church. Here is a good link to answer many of your questions. http://www.emfj.org/ It is run by former masons with an invitation to current members to engage in dialogs.

threebigrocks
Oct 24th 2007, 11:21 PM
yea your right. I was so close to joining man, i just cant shake the thought.

Spend some specific time with the Lord, don't let this shake you up! Thank God for the discernment of the Spirit and for being hesitant enough to look past the skin that was shown you. :saint:

Huck
Oct 25th 2007, 01:24 AM
There is nothing wrong with the masons. All three of my uncles are masons and they are also devout Christians. All it is is a social club that does charity and stuff. Everybody loves a consipiracy.:rolleyes: I even saw some documentary about the freemasons where they tried to show that the masons secretly run the country by arguing that the number 13 is a secret masonic symbol which appears on all kinds of government seals and stuff. LOL, I guess they forgot that there were thirteen colonies!:eek:

diffangle
Oct 25th 2007, 01:26 AM
I did research and I dont want anything to do with this stuff. I am so scared i almost bought into it. I swear you guys it looked so awesome, but I dont want to join anything that has to do with secrets and so on. I feel a little shook up actually.
Yeah, satan poses as an angel of light ;)....

2Cr 11:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=14&version=KJV#14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

amazzin
Oct 25th 2007, 01:30 AM
What is wrong with this organization? Yesterday a friend of mine invited me and another friend to a lodge dinner. They showed a few movies and it didnít look like anything bad. They are not really considered a secret society anymore because they keep the doors opened at all time where you can sign in and join. My friend signed up, however i thought i would talk to my father and of coarse you guys. My father said the only reason why he could see anyone signing up is for the job factor and how it being so hard to find a job in economy right now Masons can get you jobs right away and for school scholarships as well. But he admits he doesnít know too much about it. Can someone shed some real information about it please? I want to see legit reasons not something this is Satanís tool to get you away from God. You canít even join the Masons unless you express a belief in God. Someone please help me to understand why it is frowned upon.

Freemason or The Masonic Lodge is a secretive cultic organization. They have secret ceremonies and covenants that they pledge to as they move up to these higher levels. All recruitees will eventually want tol move into the nner sanctions because this is where the real meat of the organization is. However, there are many promises they need to make not only for themselves but for the generations to come that are ancestarly born out of future children.

Do your home work and read what is written at www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)

They are dangerous and satanic

diffangle
Oct 25th 2007, 01:46 AM
There is nothing wrong with the masons. All three of my uncles are masons and they are also devout Christians. All it is is a social club that does charity and stuff. Everybody loves a consipiracy.:rolleyes: I even saw some documentary about the freemasons where they tried to show that the masons secretly run the country by arguing that the number 13 is a secret masonic symbol which appears on all kinds of government seals and stuff. LOL, I guess they forgot that there were thirteen colonies!:eek:
Ask your uncles who jahbulon is.

From wiki...

According to author Stephen Knight, following Walton Hannah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_Hannah)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#_note-11) the word is a compound of the names of three gods worshipped in the ancient Middle East.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#_note-12)

Jah (= Yahweh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh))
Baal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal)
On, a name in Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis) in the Bible (in "Potiphar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potiphar) priest of On"), thought in older times to be a name of Osiris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris) (but now known to be the Hebrew form of the Ancient Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian) name of the city of Heliopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopolis_%28ancient%29)).

Ayala
Oct 25th 2007, 01:50 AM
From what I understand, my great grandfather was a master-mason. Never knew him though so I don't really have any insight. I hear mixed things about the Freemasons...generally I would say it's probly somethin to stay away from.

diffangle
Oct 25th 2007, 03:29 AM
Here's a documentary on them...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7652891847477492406

Thirst
Oct 25th 2007, 05:18 AM
I did research and I dont want anything to do with this stuff. I am so scared i almost bought into it. I swear you guys it looked so awesome, but I dont want to join anything that has to do with secrets and so on. I feel a little shook up actually.

Sounds like you made a good choice. There was a quote in the movie Skulls that said something like, "If it's secret, and if it's elite, it's not good."

I am glad the Lord opened your eyes very quickly to the situation...

I<3Jesus
Oct 25th 2007, 05:54 PM
There is nothing wrong with the masons. All three of my uncles are masons and they are also devout Christians. All it is is a social club that does charity and stuff. Everybody loves a consipiracy.:rolleyes: I even saw some documentary about the freemasons where they tried to show that the masons secretly run the country by arguing that the number 13 is a secret masonic symbol which appears on all kinds of government seals and stuff. LOL, I guess they forgot that there were thirteen colonies!:eek:

No offense, but I think you are being a little close minded. It comes from not wanting to admit that your family might be involved in something less than pleasant. It is OK, I totally understand, but I wouldn't rush to defend something unless you truly have experience or knowledge on the subject. I find it hard to believe that the people who were deeply entrenched who have since become Christians wouldn't know more than you. Do you have first hand experience or knowledge of the group? To say your uncles are in it and it is OK is not enough. I have family members who were in it too, but I know nothing about it because they are so secretive. My family could dodge a question like no bodies business.

Godslittleangel
Oct 26th 2007, 03:31 AM
Maybe there are groups that call themselves masons but dont' follow the beliefs or traditions that the masons who worship evil follow. Maybe its just a name they call themselves or a group but just doesn't do the things the original groups do and changed it around. But we also shouldr ealize that people can be very tricky and make you think they are worshiping God and manipulate the words to make it look that way to suck you in. So we need to be careful with that too. Cults are good at that, they are very convincing, or decieving. They can make you think they are worshiping God nad use scripture but really be worshiping a tree or something (not saying masons worship trees, just using it as an example) so a person will not always be aware of what htey are going into. So we need to be careful and really pray when dealign with religious groups and see if its what God wants us to be involved in.

Selz
Oct 27th 2007, 09:15 PM
My mum's fiance is a master in the Masons, which I've known for a while (my mum isn't a Christian and has said that she's happy for him to be involved with it as it's 'something for him to do'). I've witnessed him from a distance rising up the ranks over the years, and have on occasion type-written letters for him on behalf of the Masons (generally enclosing a charitable donation or somesuch). However, as a Christian I know the Masons is frowned upon.

Today I came to my mum's house and walked in through the back door. Ken didn't hear me, and he was lying in the lounge reciting out loud the Mason texts. I stood in the dining room and listened. I didn't understand a lot of what I was hearing, but heard him say something about 'Jachin' and spelled it out, which was why it stuck. It made my stomach turn over for some reason. I decided to shake him a bit so a little later on I said "Alright Jachin?" His face went ashen and he demanded to know where I'd heard that, so I told him I caught it as I walked in. He told me I wasn't supposed to know that and to forget about it and not mention it to anybody. We had a short discussion afterwards about the Freemasons and I was asking why it was so secret. His response was that these things have been kept secret since Freemasonry first began and that all masons take an oath to keep the secrets.... secret. He was also saying how only men of a 'certain standing' were eligible to join the Masons. Comments like that set the alarm bells off in me, because Jesus doesn't pick and choose who He accepts as a follower of Him - if you accept Him then He accepts you.

I also read something about Masons worshipping Baal and Osiris and having symbolic items like rings and so forth that are used as items of worship.

I worry greatly about Ken being with the Masons and the effect it might have on my mother, but I don't know enough to tackle him properly. I'm not great at sharing the Gospel. But if it's all a secret, how can I ever know enough?

diffangle
Oct 27th 2007, 09:28 PM
My mum's fiance is a master in the Masons, which I've known for a while (my mum isn't a Christian and has said that she's happy for him to be involved with it as it's 'something for him to do'). I've witnessed him from a distance rising up the ranks over the years, and have on occasion type-written letters for him on behalf of the Masons (generally enclosing a charitable donation or somesuch). However, as a Christian I know the Masons is frowned upon.

Today I came to my mum's house and walked in through the back door. Ken didn't hear me, and he was lying in the lounge reciting out loud the Mason texts. I stood in the dining room and listened. I didn't understand a lot of what I was hearing, but heard him say something about 'Jachin' and spelled it out, which was why it stuck. It made my stomach turn over for some reason. I decided to shake him a bit so a little later on I said "Alright Jachin?" His face went ashen and he demanded to know where I'd heard that, so I told him I caught it as I walked in. He told me I wasn't supposed to know that and to forget about it and not mention it to anybody. We had a short discussion afterwards about the Freemasons and I was asking why it was so secret. His response was that these things have been kept secret since Freemasonry first began and that all masons take an oath to keep the secrets.... secret. He was also saying how only men of a 'certain standing' were eligible to join the Masons. Comments like that set the alarm bells off in me, because Jesus doesn't pick and choose who He accepts as a follower of Him - if you accept Him then He accepts you.

I also read something about Masons worshipping Baal and Osiris and having symbolic items like rings and so forth that are used as items of worship.

I worry greatly about Ken being with the Masons and the effect it might have on my mother, but I don't know enough to tackle him properly. I'm not great at sharing the Gospel. But if it's all a secret, how can I ever know enough?
Here's a link to a site and message board of ex-Mason Christians that stillforiven posted on the first page of this thread that will be useful for you...

http://www.emfj.org/

Selz
Oct 27th 2007, 09:32 PM
Here's a link to a site and message board of ex-Mason Christians that stillforiven posted on the first page of this thread that will be useful for you...

http://www.emfj.org/

Thank you, I will give that a read. :)

Free Indeed
Oct 29th 2007, 08:01 PM
Hi Everyone,

I'm a new member here, so forgive me; but was just browsing through the threads, saw this one, and wanted to respond.

I am a Mason, and have been one for over 10 years. I'm well aware that there is a lot of anti-Masonic material on the internet, but it is based on various hoaxes, fantasies, and a desire to make money by exploiting people's fear of the unknown. Masonry is not anti-Christian, and was in fact founded by Christians.

Masonry is a fraternal organization, sort of a club. There isn't any religious worship that goes on in Masonic meetings. Lodge meetings are conducted like civic clubs. As a fraternity, we have traditional ceremonies of initiation that actually, in large part, come from English stonemason guilds in the middle ages. These ceremonies are not any sort of worship, but are just the way we induct new members and teach them about the history and ideals of our fraternity.

Many famous and notable people have been proud Masons, including George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Winston Churchill, John Wayne, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Rev. George W. Truett, J.C. Penney, Clark Gable, Harry Truman, Mel Tillis, and Roy Clarke. The fraternity stands for democratic government, freedom of speech and religion, and equality. For these reasons, many of our US forefathers were members and spokesmen for the fraternity.

It is also a charitable institution. One of the more popular Masonic orders, the Shriners, have a large system of childrens orthopedic hospitals and burn centers where children are treated free of charge. Other notable Masonic charities include the Scottish Rite Childrens Language Disorders Clinics (which treats speech disabilities) and the Knights Templar Eye Foundation, which pays for eye surgeries for the underprivileged elderly.

I have always been proud to be a Mason, and would certainly not be part of anything opposed to the Christian faith. God bless.

diffangle
Oct 29th 2007, 09:08 PM
Hi Everyone,

I'm a new member here, so forgive me; but was just browsing through the threads, saw this one, and wanted to respond.

I am a Mason, and have been one for over 10 years. I'm well aware that there is a lot of anti-Masonic material on the internet, but it is based on various hoaxes, fantasies, and a desire to make money by exploiting people's fear of the unknown. Masonry is not anti-Christian, and was in fact founded by Christians.

Masonry is a fraternal organization, sort of a club. There isn't any religious worship that goes on in Masonic meetings. Lodge meetings are conducted like civic clubs. As a fraternity, we have traditional ceremonies of initiation that actually, in large part, come from English stonemason guilds in the middle ages. These ceremonies are not any sort of worship, but are just the way we induct new members and teach them about the history and ideals of our fraternity.

Many famous and notable people have been proud Masons, including George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Winston Churchill, John Wayne, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Rev. George W. Truett, J.C. Penney, Clark Gable, Harry Truman, Mel Tillis, and Roy Clarke. The fraternity stands for democratic government, freedom of speech and religion, and equality. For these reasons, many of our US forefathers were members and spokesmen for the fraternity.

It is also a charitable institution. One of the more popular Masonic orders, the Shriners, have a large system of childrens orthopedic hospitals and burn centers where children are treated free of charge. Other notable Masonic charities include the Scottish Rite Childrens Language Disorders Clinics (which treats speech disabilities) and the Knights Templar Eye Foundation, which pays for eye surgeries for the underprivileged elderly.

I have always been proud to be a Mason, and would certainly not be part of anything opposed to the Christian faith. God bless.
Have you ever heard of jahbulon or jachin? Or had to recite a secrecy vow where you say you'll have your throat cut, your tongue ripped out, and thrown to the bottom of the ocean if you leak any secrets? Is the link(ex-masons for Jesus) provided above a hoax?

Free Indeed
Oct 30th 2007, 12:45 PM
Have you ever heard of jahbulon or jachin? Or had to recite a secrecy vow where you say you'll have your throat cut, your tongue ripped out, and thrown to the bottom of the ocean if you leak any secrets? Is the link(ex-masons for Jesus) provided above a hoax?

Jahbulon is a hoax, at least the way it is presented by anti-Masons. The hoax comes from Malcolm Duncan's "Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry" and Walter Hannah's "Darkness Visible". Hannah was not a Mason, and just assumed that Duncan's Ritual was correct. Hannah, and many anti-Masons after him, claim that Jahbulon is said to be the name of God in the Royal Arch degree. It is true that similar words have sometimes been used as traditional passwords in various versions of the degree, but it has never been said to be a name of God (thus the hoax).

"Jachin" is a Hebrew term meaning "He shall establish", and comes from I Kings 7:21.

The symbolic penalty that you refer to is no longer widely in use in international Masonry. They were removed from the ritual by the United Grand Lodge of England in the 1970's. Other jurisdictions who continue to use them inform the candidate beforehand that they are only symbolic, and derive from a time when Masons and other people were persecuted in the Inquisition, and therefore required secrecy to escape arrest and punishment.

Christ said that one can tell whether a tree is good or bad by judging the fruit it produces. No one can argue against the charitable fruits produced by Masonry. And the men who have been proud to be associated with Masonry (Washington, Franklin, the others I listed before, and many more) are universally respected as gentleman and humanitarians. I think that says enough.

God bless.

diffangle
Oct 30th 2007, 02:20 PM
Jahbulon is a hoax, at least the way it is presented by anti-Masons. The hoax comes from Malcolm Duncan's "Duncan's Ritual of Freemasonry" and Walter Hannah's "Darkness Visible". Hannah was not a Mason, and just assumed that Duncan's Ritual was correct. Hannah, and many anti-Masons after him, claim that Jahbulon is said to be the name of God in the Royal Arch degree. It is true that similar words have sometimes been used as traditional passwords in various versions of the degree, but it has never been said to be a name of God (thus the hoax).
I've asked several Masons about that name and they reluctantly tell me that they do use it. I understand jahbulon to be a combination of YHWH, baal, and osiris. I also understand the Mason's word for their god(The Great Architect) being a god for all religions represented within the Mason's.

"Jachin" is a Hebrew term meaning "He shall establish", and comes from I Kings 7:21.

The symbolic penalty that you refer to is no longer widely in use in international Masonry. They were removed from the ritual by the United Grand Lodge of England in the 1970's. Other jurisdictions who continue to use them inform the candidate beforehand that they are only symbolic, and derive from a time when Masons and other people were persecuted in the Inquisition, and therefore required secrecy to escape arrest and punishment.
No offense but isn't that a little concerning/creepy for you? How Christian is an oath like that?

Christ said that one can tell whether a tree is good or bad by judging the fruit it produces. No one can argue against the charitable fruits produced by Masonry. And the men who have been proud to be associated with Masonry (Washington, Franklin, the others I listed before, and many more) are universally respected as gentleman and humanitarians. I think that says enough.

God bless.
Satan also poses as an angel of light...

2Cr 11:14 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=14&version=KJV#14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

What about all the secrecy...

Mar 4:22 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mar&c=4&v=22&version=KJV#22)For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

Luk 11:33 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=11&v=33&version=KJV#33)No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth [it] in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.

Jhn 7:4 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=7&v=4&version=KJV#4)For [there is] no man [that] doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

Eph 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&verse=13&version=kjv#13)But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Is the link(ex-masons for Jesus) provided above a hoax... are those guys lying?

Free Indeed
Oct 30th 2007, 05:22 PM
Hi Diffangle,

I really don't want to go into long, drawn out argument about it, and am a newbie here anyway. There's plenty of anti-Masonic material on the web, but there are also plenty of good Masonic researchers online too, and the anti-Masons' false claims have been refuted and debunked. As I mentioned earlier, a tree can only be judged by its fruits, and I'm happy to let those speak for themselves.

God bless,

KT

I<3Jesus
Oct 30th 2007, 07:29 PM
Welcome to the site, Knight. In spite of your defense I still believe there is something very wrong about the organization. I cannot put my finger on it, but when I pray about it I get the very distinct feeling that there is something very wrong with it. That and my female intuition (aka my Spidey sense) are rarely wrong.

h2jo
Oct 30th 2007, 11:04 PM
My husbands grandfather was in it for a week. He joined up because he thought it was a 'christian' organisation, but he came running out a week later fearing for his life. They threatened him so he wouldn't quit and made sure he never spoke about it to anyone else.

Thats no innocent organisation running there! Just plain evil. This guy is a soild God fearing man and to be fearing for his life :confused even today years later it still shakes him.

EDIT: Just finished reading all the other posts. I'm not a hoax and niether is my husbands grandfather!

I so wish invisible! I would go to the main head meetings and see what they really do!

Free Indeed
Oct 31st 2007, 12:52 PM
Welcome to the site, Knight.

Thanks!


In spite of your defense I still believe there is something very wrong about the organization. I cannot put my finger on it, but when I pray about it I get the very distinct feeling that there is something very wrong with it. That and my female intuition (aka my Spidey sense) are rarely wrong.

I can give my own personal story about my involvement in Masonry, and you can take it for whatever it's worth.

I first became interested in Masonry while still in college, and joined soon before I graduated. I was already a member of a fraternity in school, and was interested in non-collegiate fraternal associations. My studies in American history are what really sparked my interest in Masonry, and showed me that every American owes at least some gratitude to the Masonic organization.

For example, the Constitution of the United States is patterned after, and largely based upon, the booklet "Constitutions of the Freemasons", which was first published in the colonies by Benjamin Franklin. Franklin served as Masonic Grand Master of Pennsylvania at the same time Paul Revere was Grand Master of Massachusetts (Grand Master being the highest ranking Masonic official in a state).

I also found it interesting that the patriot soldiers wore their Masonic regalia, instead of military regalia, into battle, and that our forefathers held tent Lodges on the battlefield. In one of these tent Lodges, George Washington himself acted as Lodge Master and initiated Lafayette. A drum draped with the American flag served as the altar, and the Bible that was used upon it belonged to St. John's Masonic Lodge in NY. Washington used this same Bible when he took the oath of office at his inauguration, and to this very day, Presidents use that very same Bible. After the war, Lafayette's wife made Washington a very beautiful Masonic apron, which is now on display at the Smithsonian.

The reason that I say that all Americans owe Masonry gratitude is because it played a major role in our forefathers' opinions concerning government and political science. These men were born and raised in a monarchy, but when they joined the Lodge, they found democratic government and equality. This is why, when crafting the US Constitution, they borrowed so heavily from the Masonic constitutions.

Like I said earlier, there's no shortage of anti-Masonic material online. But there's also no shortage of very good Masonic researchers and writers who have refuted and debunked them. The major problem I've seen with critics of Freemasonry is that they are way too biased: they only want to read the anti-Masonic material, and usually have no idea that all that stuff has been debunked by honest researchers and historians, both Masons and non-Masons.

God bless,

KT

Free Indeed
Oct 31st 2007, 12:58 PM
My husbands grandfather was in it for a week. He joined up because he thought it was a 'christian' organisation, but he came running out a week later fearing for his life. They threatened him so he wouldn't quit and made sure he never spoke about it to anyone else.

If someone threatened his life, then whatever organization he joined certainly was *not* Masonry. In Masonry, anyone can resign their membership whenever they want, or simply not pay their annual dues and be dropped from membership.

Masons don't threaten *anybody*. The fraternity is organized for the purposes of education, charity, and good fellowship; it requires it's members to be morally upright and law-abiding, and any brother behaving contrary to that stands to be expelled.

There have been some nefarious groups here and there who've pretended to be Masonry, and in turn have given real Masons a bad name. Whether your husband's grandfather joined one of these, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't legitimate Masonry. I know many brothers down there in Australia, and they certainly would not tolerate anyone being threatened.

TSP
Oct 31st 2007, 01:19 PM
I know what some people mean about not exactly knowing what is funny about it. When my good friend Jeremy and I were at the lodge dinner it looked great, but something didnít fit, it was almost as if the people were wearing fake smiles or something. It was like nothing mattered to them except getting us to join them. It is funny because normally any organization you join one of the first questions asked is ďWhy do you want to joinĒ or ďwhat are you looking for in this groupĒ we received none of these questions just ďletís get these kids signed up and get them initiated.Ē That was the first thing I thought about, they seemed great in the moment but after I took time to think about it, it was seriously creepy to me, and that was only one thing that I found weird there are many more.

Free Indeed
Oct 31st 2007, 02:06 PM
TSP,

Unfortunately, what you described is beginning to happen more and more. In the USA, each state has it's own Grand Lodge, so each state has it's own rules on membership. Mine is more traditional and conservative, and does not solicit membership. Others have become more liberal in that respect, so your experience is becoming more common.

I don't agree at all with the way they tried to solicit you, but I do understand the fundamental problem that leads to such stuff. The main thing is money. Fraternal orders are not as popular today as they once were, and membership numbers are decreasing. The active membership grows older, and there is a need to draw younger guys in to continue the fraternity. Finances are needed to both support Masonic charities and also just to pay the bills. So some Grand Lodges are turning to soliciting for membership, which is an innovation and has traditionally been frowned upon.

Traditionally, Masons aren't supposed to invite anyone into the fraternity. Instead, whoever wanted to become a Mason was supposed to ask. I still think this is the right thing to do. There's nothing wrong with Masons talking to non-Masonic friends about Masonry, but I don't like to see Lodges begging people to become members. It is disrespectful, and, quite frankly, is embarrassing.

Regardless, I apologize if your experience in the Lodge seemed like they were just trying to increase their membership without any interest in you personally. That may not have completely been the case, but I can certainly understand why you would feel that way. Nobody should feel pressured to join. If that's the only reason someone joined, they probably wouldn't make very good Masons in the long run since they weren't that interested in it. There would be no reason to attend and participate, so I think those Lodges are really shooting themselves in the foot who try to solicit members. On the other hand, if a person really wants to become a Mason, and makes it a point to seek someone, get an application, go through the whole process, etc., he is much more likely to become a good Mason and an active member. We need good, strong leadership these days by men who are dedicated and who believe in what they're doing, rather than guys who only joined because their dad or uncle wanted them to.

TSP
Oct 31st 2007, 03:07 PM
It wasnít really that I felt pressured, now I am not one to talk like the Holy Spirit moved me or anything like that, but honestly I think for the first time I was really in tune with the Holy Spirit because it literally felt like something was saying donít do this, its not right for you. Now I am not criticizing masonry or judging anyone who is a mason, thatís not my job. My heart wasnít 100% and the Holy Spirit let me know it. Honestly you shouldnt join anything if you're not 100%.

The Parson
Nov 1st 2007, 01:47 AM
If someone threatened his life, then whatever organization he joined certainly was *not* Masonry. In Masonry, anyone can resign their membership whenever they want, or simply not pay their annual dues and be dropped from membership.

Masons don't threaten *anybody*. The fraternity is organized for the purposes of education, charity, and good fellowship; it requires it's members to be morally upright and law-abiding, and any brother behaving contrary to that stands to be expelled.

There have been some nefarious groups here and there who've pretended to be Masonry, and in turn have given real Masons a bad name. Whether your husband's grandfather joined one of these, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't legitimate Masonry. I know many brothers down there in Australia, and they certainly would not tolerate anyone being threatened.Thanks for joining the fellowship KT. Welcome.

I have had experiences with many of the Police officers here in my area who are Masons in my duties as a police chaplain. It is an unusual sort of situation where those in a certain department who are the higher ups, are all lodge members. I have never really wanted to explore the possibility, nor have I sought out one to ask to join. Isn't the moto "To be one, ask one"?

I do have a few questions for you if you don't mind. In your initiation, was there an announcement made that you are in darkness and want to come into the light of Masonary? It's interesting if you did and were already a Christian because Jesus said: John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. A Christian couldn't/shouldn't allow such an announcement to be made on his behalf, should he?

Another question I might have and please correct me if I'm wrong, but when you pray in the lodge, are you allowed to end your prayer in Jesus name? I can't qualify that as a trick question really. Some would say they were praying in God's name which in escense is praying in Jesus name. John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Symbolism is a major thing to the Christian faith. We really have only one main symbol which is the cross (1Cor. 1:18) and the early Christians used the fish as fishers of men to identify one another. Even before the Savior came, the Jews had the Star of David which is two triangles overlapping into 6 points. But until the Knights Templar and the the Eastern Stars (Lady Masons) the inverted Pentagram (upside down 5 pointed star) was the sign of Satan who was also known as Baphomet I believe. Why would they pick a Satanic Symbol as one of their signs?

The Masonic apron you would wear if you were a High Ranking Mason, isn't that said to be your righeousness at the Great White Throne Judgement? I'm a little confused but if I read my scriptures correctly, the only ones at the Great White Throne Judgement are the lost. You know, the ones that are condemned for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior... Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Goodness gracious, I certainly wouldn't want to be one judged there. The judgement of the saved takes place at the Bema Seat of Christ.

Don't want to overwhelm you with questions. I'm meerly curious. One last one if you don't mind. Don't the Shriners wear a red fez which is stored under a glass cover when not used. Is there a meaning to this? It wouldn't have anything to do with the Muslims, who in the 8th century, murdered a great number of Christians and then dipped their fez's in the blood as a trophy would it? I'm a history lover and have seen that question asked without much of an answer made of it. And is the Shriners oath sworn on the Koran? Again, just curious. I appreciate your consideration...

Your servant,
The Parson

Free Indeed
Nov 1st 2007, 02:18 PM
Thanks for joining the fellowship KT. Welcome.

Thanks!


Isn't the moto "To be one, ask one"?

lol, I hate that one. It's not an official motto, but it's on a lot of bumper stickers. I'm a traditionalist, and don't really like that sort of advertisement, but yes, those who want to join are supposed to request admission. in the past many people have erroneously believed that they had be invited, which has traditionally been against the fraternity's rules.


I do have a few questions for you if you don't mind. In your initiation, was there an announcement made that you are in darkness and want to come into the light of Masonary? It's interesting if you did and were already a Christian because Jesus said: John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. A Christian couldn't/shouldn't allow such an announcement to be made on his behalf, should he?

The language of the ritual in this respect does not mean that one is darkness concerning Christianity. In fact, it has two distinct, but kindred, meanings. The outward meaning is that one is in darkness in respect to the fraternity, i.e., that before initiation, one cannot fully understand Masonry.

A second deeper meaning concerns the fraternity's history. Modern Masonry was first instituted in the age of Enlightenment, and the modern ritual was first used in the late 1600's. It refers to the transition period of western culture to the age of Enlightenment from the dark ages. Candidates for initiation into Masonry are clothed and prepared in a peculiar way also to demonstrate this. Many of our fraternity's scholars have elaborated upon this in detail. For example, the candidate being bound with a cable tow demonstrates the bondage that the people are under when church and state are not separate. The hoodwink represents blindness due to tyrannical government dictating what information will be available to the public, and what is to be censored. When these rituals were written, this was a very real problem in our world.

Today, thanks in large part to Masonry, we no longer live in such a dark place. Our lesson is therefore that he who who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.


Another question I might have and please correct me if I'm wrong, but when you pray in the lodge, are you allowed to end your prayer in Jesus name? I can't qualify that as a trick question really. Some would say they were praying in God's name which in escense is praying in Jesus name.

Each Grand Lodge has its own technical rules concerning this. Traditionally, Masonry was Christian-only. At the sessions of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717, this was changed, as it was considered morally wrong to discriminate on the basis of religious belief, and Jews were admitted for the first time.

About 15% of the membership in New York today are of the Jewish faith, and the Grand Lodge of NY has a rule that only a non-sectarian prayer be used when opening and closing the Lodge. This prayer is similar to what the Chaplain of the US Senate uses when opening, i.e., it is non-sectarian. Both Senator Lindsey Graham (a Christian) and Senator Joe Lieberman (a Jew) can participate in it.

My Grand Lodge has no such rules. Sometimes our Chaplain uses the standard non-sectarian prayer, and sometimes he ad libs the prayer and closes with "in Jesus' name".


But until the Knights Templar and the the Eastern Stars (Lady Masons) the inverted Pentagram (upside down 5 pointed star) was the sign of Satan who was also known as Baphomet I believe. Why would they pick a Satanic Symbol as one of their signs?

The 5 pointed star only became associated with Satan in the 20th century. It was first used by the Pythagoreans and Plato as the philosophical symbol of the elements in ancient Greece, and carried no evil connotations. The Order of the Eastern Star, btw, are not Lady Masons. It is a club created by Brother Rob Morris in the late 1800's for Masons and their wives, but does not confer Masonic degrees. It's symbol, the easter star (the inverted five pointed star) actually represents the Star of Bethlehem in that organization, and the Order's founding is dedicated to those ancient Magi who declared "We have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him". The pentagram has philosophical and mathematical meanings, but in the Order of the Eastern Star, it is simply inverted so the one point downward points the way to the manger.

"Baphomet" was actually an invention of Phillip the Fair of France to falsely accuse the Knights Templar of heresy. According to the prosecutors, the Templars were worshiping "Baphomet", the word probably being a corruption of "Mahomet", the French way of spelling "Muhammed". This was intended to show that the Templars had converted to Islam, and were thus traitors.

In reality, the Templars did no such thing, and all their confessions were extracted under torture. Many, including Grand Master DeMolay, confessed under torture but recanted, and preferred to suffer death than renounce Christ.



The Masonic apron you would wear if you were a High Ranking Mason, isn't that said to be your righeousness at the Great White Throne Judgement?

All Masons wear aprons at Lodge meetings, not just Masons who are officials. However, to answer your question, no, it is not said that an apron will be anyone's righteousness (which, as you would probably agree, would not only be a lie, but a silly thing to say anyway).

Instead, it is said that in Masonry, the apron is a *symbol* of virtue. This is because the apron presented is a pure white lambskin apron. Even though the fraternity became non-sectarian in 1717, the ritual itself is older than that, and was written by Christians. The Christian symbolism of the lamb in the apron lecture is pretty obvious.


I'm a little confused but if I read my scriptures correctly, the only ones at the Great White Throne Judgement are the lost.

Then you and I apparently interpret it differently. My interpretation is that all men will stand before the Almighty and give an account of himself.


And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:11-12)



You know, the ones that are condemned for not accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior... Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Goodness gracious, I certainly wouldn't want to be one judged there. The judgement of the saved takes place at the Bema Seat of Christ.

I'm not sure why you would interpret "and there was found no place for them" to refer to people. From the context, it was the earth and heaven that fled away, because there was found no place for them. As for the people being judged, the passages go on to say that those not found in the Book of Life are condemned. This infers that others *are* found in the Book of Life, and are rewarded.


Don't want to overwhelm you with questions. I'm meerly curious.

No problem at all.


One last one if you don't mind. Don't the Shriners wear a red fez which is stored under a glass cover when not used.

I have a fez case that I keep mine in. I suppose some guys may have a glass cover, but most of us just use the carrying cases.



Is there a meaning to this? It wouldn't have anything to do with the Muslims, who in the 8th century, murdered a great number of Christians and then dipped their fez's in the blood as a trophy would it? I'm a history lover and have seen that question asked without much of an answer made of it.

If you are a history lover, you may be interested in the fact that this is an anti-Masonic hoax, popularized by two anti-Masons (Ed Decker and Jack T. Chick). According to the hoax, Muslims stormed the city of Fez, Morocco, murdered the Christian inhabitants, and dipped their fezzes in their blood, turning them red.

According to history, none of that ever happened. There were no Christians in Fez at that time. The inhabitants were pagans, surrendered peacefully, converted to Islam under the peace agreement, and their posterity still live in Fez today. Also, Chick's story about "rivers of blood" boggles the mind...in a desert setting, blood would congeal quickly. If someone dipped a hat in it, it would do nothing but attract flies and other insects, and the color would be brown, not red.

The true story of the Shriners and the red fez is much more interesting, and quite inspiring. The Shriners were founded by Dr. Walter Fleming, 33į, in the late 1800's. Brother Fleming, a physician, was visiting Morocco, and was invited to a club meeting for Moroccon doctors, after Fleming had helped out at a local hospital. Brother Fleming was solemnly impressed by the club, as the meeting opened with a beautiful ceremony invoking the blessings of Providence on the sick in the country. Fleming was also impressed by the Moroccan doctors who were members in the club, because the club rules required them to treat poor patients for free. The Moroccan physicians were Muslims, but the club rules required them treat Christian and Jewish patients equally as if they were Muslims, and Fleming was further impressed by their knowledge, not only of medicine, but of philosophy and ethics.

On returning to New York, Brother Fleming founded the Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine based on the Moroccan physician's club. Like the Morrocans, the Shriners were to wear red fezzes at the meetings. And like the Morrocans, the Shriners began to open hospitals to treat the needy free of charge, without regard to race, religion, or creed.


And is the Shriners oath sworn on the Koran?

No. In the Shrine initiation ceremony, passages are read from the Qu'ran, but the ones used are not theological, but simply point out moral duties. These passages do not conflict with Christianity or Judaism. Fleming himself was a Methodist.

The By-Laws and Constitutions of the Shriners, written by Dr. Fleming, required that all who applied to become members of the Shriners be at least a 32į member of the Scottish Rite of Masonry or a Knight Templar in the York Rite of Masonry, or both. Our website, both for the Shriners and Shriners Childrens Hospitals and Burn Centers, is http://www.shrinershq.org/

God bless,

KT

Jollyrogers
Nov 1st 2007, 02:57 PM
If someone threatened his life, then whatever organization he joined certainly was *not* Masonry. In Masonry, anyone can resign their membership whenever they want, or simply not pay their annual dues and be dropped from membership.

Masons don't threaten *anybody*. The fraternity is organized for the purposes of education, charity, and good fellowship; it requires it's members to be morally upright and law-abiding, and any brother behaving contrary to that stands to be expelled.

There have been some nefarious groups here and there who've pretended to be Masonry, and in turn have given real Masons a bad name. Whether your husband's grandfather joined one of these, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't legitimate Masonry. I know many brothers down there in Australia, and they certainly would not tolerate anyone being threatened.

Just a question. Have you ever read about the William Morgan affair in Batavia NY?? It caused the first "third party" movement in this country, The Anti-Mason's party.

I personally have a problem joining a group that can not tell me what I am joining. I have read Albert Pikes "Morals and Dogma" and in it he states that "the blue lodges are but the outer ring. It is not important for them to know the true meanings behind the signs ans symbols, only that they think they know". That right there was enough to keep me out of it. He stated that an initiate is purposely lied to in the beginning.

Free Indeed
Nov 1st 2007, 03:27 PM
Just a question. Have you ever read about the William Morgan affair in Batavia NY?? It caused the first "third party" movement in this country, The Anti-Mason's party.

Yes, actually I've spoken on that subject several times in different Lodges. It's a difficult subject because historians do not agree on exactly what happened. Everyone has a different opinion, depending on their biases. For example, most critics of Masonry claim that the Batavian Masons were like the Sopranos, and that Morgan sleeps with the fishes. Those sympathetic to Masonry point out that Morgan was a con artist, and there does exist evidence that the whole episode was faked. The problem is that both of these views have circumstantial evidence to back them up, so it's hard to make a call with 100% accuracy.


I personally have a problem joining a group that can not tell me what I am joining.

Like I mentioned to the other gentleman, Masons are generally happy to talk about the fraternity to their non-Masonic friends, but no one should feel pressured into joining.


I have read Albert Pikes "Morals and Dogma" and in it he states that "the blue lodges are but the outer ring. It is not important for them to know the true meanings behind the signs ans symbols, only that they think they know". That right there was enough to keep me out of it. He stated that an initiate is purposely lied to in the beginning.

Ah yes, good ol' Pike. Hardly a conversation about Masonry can be had online without him coming up sooner or later.

First, if you have really read Pike's "Morals and Dogma", I applaud you. Most online critics of Masonry have never cracked its cover, and simply post out of context quotes from it that they get from other websites.

What Pike actually wrote was that the "Blue Lodge is the outer portico of the Temple", and is here discussing a theory that is no longer taken seriously by Masonic researchers.

When Pike wrote "Morals and Dogma", the popular theory was that Masonry was founded by the Knights Templar soon after their purge in France. Pike believed this religiously at that time. Pike's idea was basically this:

The higher degrees of both the York and Scottish Rite are Templar degrees. But the Templars aren't mentioned in the Blue Lodge degrees. Instead, the Blue Lodge lectures explain that Masonry comes from the medieval stonemasons in England. Pike therefore believed that whoever wrote the Blue Lodge lectures was not telling the truth, and the real "truth" was that Masonry was the Templars in disguise. This big secret was too important for a long time to tell to just anybody because if the Catholic Church knew the Templars still existed, they would be rounded up and persecuted. Therefore, the big secret was reserved only to those who had proven their loyalty and discretion.

Of course, this is a fascinating and very interesting story, but unfortunately, none of it is really true. Pike went on believing the story until a British Masonic researcher, Brother Robert Freke Gould, Grand Historian of the Grand Lodge of England, published his 7 volume "History of Freemasonry" in the late 1880's, shortly before Pike's death. In it, Gould proved conclusively that Masonry did *not* come from the Knights Templar, and that therefore Pike had been in error. This proof cam in several ways, most notably through old records and Lodge minutes in England that Pike originally did not have access to. Gould showed that the Blue Lodge degrees were the original form of Freemasonry, and that none of the higher degrees existed before the 1720's, including the Templar degrees.

The quote from Pike that you prarphrased from "Morals and Dogma" was therefore eventually retracted by him. Even though critics of Masonry still use those quotes on the Internet a lot, Pike himself eventually admitted that he had been wrong. The official retraction was given by Pike in a speech before the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite in 1889, 2 years before Pike's death. He also admitted his mistake in several letters to Gould, which have been published by the Scottish Rite Research Society.

Today we know that modern Masonry did in fact stem from the medieval guilds of stonemasons. We who are modern Masonic Knights Templar no longer claim that we are the direct successors of the original Knights, but only try to emulate their loyalty, nobility, courage, and charity. We respect Pike as a profilic writer, a very able Masonic administrator, and an important Masonic thinker. But we also understand that Pike did not have access to most of the documents that we do today, and we understand that he often had to use his imagination to fill in the gaps. This not only concerns Pike, but most other American Masonic researchers at that time who did not have access to the English Masonic libraries and museums.

God bless,

KT

Jollyrogers
Nov 1st 2007, 04:04 PM
Yea, I read an abbrieviated version of it. A few years ago I was sent to recover a truck for J. B. Hunt in Indianna. The person who had abandoned it left a bunch of masonic literature in the truck (I still have most of it somewhere).

Saved7
Nov 1st 2007, 04:07 PM
I did research and I dont want anything to do with this stuff. I am so scared i almost bought into it. I swear you guys it looked so awesome, but I dont want to join anything that has to do with secrets and so on. I feel a little shook up actually.


A little something to remember....if something is "too good to be true" is usually is.:saint: Especially when it comes to things that the human mind has come up with on their own;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 1st 2007, 04:14 PM
KT - On my Mom's side there are people in my family who were Masons who absolutely refused to divulge any information about the organization and they were very explosive if you pushed further and questioned things. That is not the reaction I expect from a Christian who is a member of a Christian organization.

I feel bad and I do not mean to attack you, so please do not take it that way, but The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. He is very alluring. He can fast talk like nobodies business. I still cannot shake this feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with the organization. Why do you need a group like that anyway? Doesn't it take away from the time you spend with God, edifying yourself? I realize we all need hobbies. You have said before that the US owes a lot to the Masons and you have mentioned several prominent people in our history, but I do not think any of those people should be looked up to.

[I decided to edit out some comments that were tangential]

Saved7
Nov 1st 2007, 04:25 PM
Hi Everyone,

I'm a new member here, so forgive me; but was just browsing through the threads, saw this one, and wanted to respond.

I am a Mason, and have been one for over 10 years. I'm well aware that there is a lot of anti-Masonic material on the internet, but it is based on various hoaxes, fantasies, and a desire to make money by exploiting people's fear of the unknown. Masonry is not anti-Christian, and was in fact founded by Christians.

Masonry is a fraternal organization, sort of a club. There isn't any religious worship that goes on in Masonic meetings. Lodge meetings are conducted like civic clubs. As a fraternity, we have traditional ceremonies of initiation that actually, in large part, come from English stonemason guilds in the middle ages. These ceremonies are not any sort of worship, but are just the way we induct new members and teach them about the history and ideals of our fraternity.

Many famous and notable people have been proud Masons, including George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Winston Churchill, John Wayne, Gen. Douglas MacArthur, Rev. George W. Truett, J.C. Penney, Clark Gable, Harry Truman, Mel Tillis, and Roy Clarke. The fraternity stands for democratic government, freedom of speech and religion, and equality. For these reasons, many of our US forefathers were members and spokesmen for the fraternity.

It is also a charitable institution. One of the more popular Masonic orders, the Shriners, have a large system of childrens orthopedic hospitals and burn centers where children are treated free of charge. Other notable Masonic charities include the Scottish Rite Childrens Language Disorders Clinics (which treats speech disabilities) and the Knights Templar Eye Foundation, which pays for eye surgeries for the underprivileged elderly.

I have always been proud to be a Mason, and would certainly not be part of anything opposed to the Christian faith. God bless.


You know, I have read quite a bit on this subject, and honestly it would seem that there are actually a few good lodges. But the majority are not what you believe they are. You may be involved in a good lodge, however, even just praying and having to pray to a "general" pray without using Jesus' name tells me there is something wrong. I mean, how can it be a good (godly) organization if it says that all different types of religions are welcome there?
Even satan appears as an angel of light, he knows how to do good things, and it is of course for the benefit of steering people away from the truth.
I would be very cautious of any club that says that Jesus isn't the only way. And by forbidding prayer in Jesus' name this club is doing just that, they expect people to pray, but it doesn't seem to matter who they pray to.:help:
And as for the secrecy....Jesus is the most important thing there is; yet we are supposed to be transparent and live holy godly lives the glorify God. Why would the masons want you to be secret about anything? They sure don't mind bringing glory to their name, but yet I don't see any glory given to God/JESUS. There is something seriously wrong with a club that demands secrecy.

Free Indeed
Nov 1st 2007, 05:27 PM
KT - On my Mom's side there are people in my family who were Masons who absolutely refused to divulge any information about the organization and they were very explosive if you pushed further and questioned things. That is not the reaction I expect from a Christian who is a member of a Christian organization.

Just a couple of points: I din't mean to impy that Masonry was a Christian organization per se. Most of our members are Christians, but the organization itself is a non-sectarian fraternity.

As for divulging information, I think this is sort of a funny issue, and several people have told me similar stories. In all probablility, the reason that they refused to tell you anything is becuase they don't know themselves, and not because of any perceived organizational secrecy (although some Masons do indeed use that as an excuse).

The real story is that, like most similar organizations and clubs, most Masons do not actively participate in their membership, and they themselves don't know much about it. If a Lodge has 500 members, it would be normal for only 10% of that membership to actively participate. In other words, only 50 guys would come regularly to meetings. Of those 50, maybe 8 or 9 would actually read and study Masonic books, although at least those who come to the meetings have many opportunities to listen to well-informed Masonic speakers on the subject.

So what we really have is a situation in which most Masons don't participate in the fraternity, and don't know very much about it. When asked by non-Masons questions that they don't know the answer to, it is common for them to either ignore it, or use the "it's a secret" gimmick. Masons who are well-informed, however, are always happy to talk to non-Masons about Masonry, and try to answer their questions.


I feel bad and I do not mean to attack you, so please do not take it that way

Not at all. I realize many folks are curious, and there's nothing wrong with stating an opinion.


Why do you need a group like that anyway?

Like I talked about earlier, I joined the Masons just before graduating college, where I was already in a fraternity. I enjoyed being in a fraternity, and became interested in Masonry through my history studies. Since that time, I've made a lot of great friends in the organization, it allows me to contribute to important charities, it stands for the ideals I believe in, and last but certainly not least, it's a lot of fun.

Free Indeed
Nov 1st 2007, 06:03 PM
You know, I have read quite a bit on this subject, and honestly it would seem that there are actually a few good lodges. But the majority are not what you believe they are. You may be involved in a good lodge, however, even just praying and having to pray to a "general" pray without using Jesus' name tells me there is something wrong. I mean, how can it be a good (godly) organization if it says that all different types of religions are welcome there?

Lodges aren't really independent organizations, and most active Masons regularly visit other Lodges. I'm a member of two different Lodges, and visit 4 or 5 others in my area regularly. Lodges themselves, of course, are only as good as the members inside them. Traditionally, before a man is initiated, the membership committee investigates him thoroughly to make sure he's a good guy. Some Lodges have become slack in that, and there have been times when someone got in who shouldn't have. If a Mason's behavior is immoral, or if he does something illegal, it is general handled swiftly, and the member is expelled. But usually non-Masons aren't aware of that, and when a member does something bad, it makes us all look bad, even though most of us have never even met him.

As for the prayers, I refer back to what I said earlier about the US Senate. Both the SEnate and the Masonic Lodges open and close with a non-sectarian prayer. In the Senate, this is so that Sen. Joe Lieberman, a Jew, can prayer alongside the guy sitting beside him, generally a Christian. The same thing holds true for Masonry, there's no difference between the way Lodges have opening prayer, and the way the US Senate does.



And as for the secrecy....Jesus is the most important thing there is; yet we are supposed to be transparent and live holy godly lives the glorify God. Why would the masons want you to be secret about anything? They sure don't mind bringing glory to their name, but yet I don't see any glory given to God/JESUS. There is something seriously wrong with a club that demands secrecy.

Actually, secrecy is a traditional part of most older organizations, including Christianity. In ancient Rome, Christians identified themselves to each by secret methods, such as drawing fish symbols on their sleeves. In Masonry, there are certain traditional "secrets" that are no longer strictly necessary in the free society in which we live today, but we nevertheless preserve them out of that sense of tradition. These secrets consist in certain parts of the initiation ceremony, that are of no real interest to non-Masons anyway.

But I strongly disagree that secrecy itself is something wrong, or to be avoided. Only recently have Christians started saying such things. Consider the words of the Scriptures:

A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. (Proverbs 11:13)

A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness. (Proverbs 12:23)

I<3Jesus
Nov 1st 2007, 06:23 PM
Thanks for answering my questions, I hope I did not come off as judgmental.

Brother James
Dec 30th 2007, 02:06 AM
A lot of factual information about the masons can be found at www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com). If you want to be a fully informed person, it is a good idea to look at information on both sides of an issue.

rabidchipmunk
Dec 30th 2007, 05:20 AM
I thought the masons were formed during the building of the temple during Solomon's reign. A couple questions. What exactly is the scottish rite? And what does the purple fez with the red rat on it indicate?

Free Indeed
Jan 3rd 2008, 04:55 PM
I thought the masons were formed during the building of the temple during Solomon's reign.

That's the so-called "legendary history" of Freemasonry. It is true that early Hebrew and Phoenician stonemasons were the primary workers on the Temple at Jerusalem, but there is no historical link between them and the medieval English stonemasons who founded modern Freemasonry.

Those Engish brothers in the middle ages were, however, inspired by the bible stories of the masons at Jerusalem, so they incorporated the stories into their initiation ceremonies.


A couple questions. What exactly is the scottish rite?

In the United States, the fraternity is divided into two distinct "rites", or sets of degrees. These are the York Rite and the Scottish Rite. "Degrees" are the traditional initiation ceremonies of the fraternity.

In the United States, people become Third Degree Master Masons in what are called "Blue Lodges" (they are called this because traditionally, the Lodge rooms are painted blue). After they become Master Masons, they may then join the York Rite, or Scottish Rite, or both. In the USA, the Scottish Rite system begins at the 4th degree, and ends at the 33rd degree. The York Rite degrees are not numbered, but are divided into three sub-organizations: Chapters of Royal Arch Masons, Council of Cryptic Masons, and Commanderies of Knights Templar.

Traditionally, one had to either be a 32į Mason in the Scottish Rite, or a Knight Templar in the York Rite, in order to become a Shriner. This rule was discarded several years ago, and now any Third Degree Master Mason can become a Shriner. However, most Masons who are active in the fraternity hold membership in both the York Rite and the Scottish Rite.




And what does the purple fez with the red rat on it indicate?

lol, I've never seen that one! Do you have a link?

CrownedOne
Jan 3rd 2008, 05:02 PM
If any of you are actually intrested in knowing anything about Freemason I would suggest you do your research about them. I would recommend Is it True What they Say about Freemasons by Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris. This discussion would be filled with too many people who know nothing about the organization. The relativity of a child having a temper outbreak an the freemasonary I am still trying to figure out. I will say this that freemasonary has had many good Christians in it and I think you would be surprised as to how many are in your church.

Free Indeed
Jan 7th 2008, 06:59 PM
If any of you are actually intrested in knowing anything about Freemason I would suggest you do your research about them. I would recommend Is it True What they Say about Freemasons by Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris.

That is actually a very good book, and can be read in its entirety online here:

http://www.scottishrite.org/web/SRpublications/DeHoyos.htm

CrownedOne
Jan 8th 2008, 06:15 PM
Man, I think I paid $12 something for my copy. But on a serious note even with the link you provided for a copy of the book for free, I would guess that about 80% of the people that have posted on here will not take the time to read the book. It much easier to burn the "witch" then to find out if the witch is for real. I hope I am wrong and my brothers and sisters in Christ try to understand an organization that has done much good for the world and continues too. I can't say that this is new if you just look at history you will see how Freemasonry has been misunderstood. Don't get me started on the goat riding

diffangle
Jan 8th 2008, 10:20 PM
Strictly based on what the freemasons have said here on this forum... I don't believe it is a good organization for believer's to be members of.

Athanasius
Jan 9th 2008, 01:51 AM
It's a very hard thing to discuss a topic with people who (1) don't understand the topic and/or (2) don't understand the organization they are part of.

FreeMasonry, as with Wicca, requires more than just a superficial understanding.
There's more to it, and I mean that in the farthest positive sense possible.

CrownedOne
Jan 9th 2008, 03:31 PM
Strictly based on what the freemasons have said here on this forum... I don't believe it is a good organization for believer's to be members of.
Please be specific on what your referring too. What was said that makes you feel its a bad organization and also I would like to know if you read or skimmed through the book mentioned. I think you could safely say that you do not feel the organization is for you but I have not seen your augment in saying it is not a good organization for believers to be a part of.

diffangle
Jan 9th 2008, 03:54 PM
Please be specific on what your referring too. What was said that makes you feel its a bad organization and also I would like to know if you read or skimmed through the book mentioned. I think you could safely say that you do not feel the organization is for you but I have not seen your augment in saying it is not a good organization for believers to be a part of.
Sure, here's a recent thread on the freemasons, you can read my response to a freemason in that thread...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=108411

To answer your question on if I read the book you posted... no but I did read the site that James posted in the link above.... still not impressed for the very reasons I state in the thread. ;)

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 03:55 PM
Strictly based on what the freemasons have said here on this forum... I don't believe it is a good organization for believer's to be members of.

I don't know what other Masons may have said, but I have to respectfully disagree. Throughout my years in the fraternity, I have found it an excellent institution to be a part of. Millions of other members throughout history, both known and unknown, would agree.

diffangle
Jan 9th 2008, 03:56 PM
Oops, I just noticed you won't have access to that forum until you've been here a month and have 40 posts. :blush:

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 04:15 PM
It's a very hard thing to discuss a topic with people who (1) don't understand the topic and/or (2) don't understand the organization they are part of.

I would agree, except I would amend it to read "It's a very hard thing to discuss a topic with people who (1) don't understand the topic and/or (2) don't understand the organization they are *not* part of."

Some non-Masons have developed unorthodox (and in some cases, downright bizarre) ideas about Freemasonry and similar fraternities and societies that are incorrect, and have no reference to the real organizations themselves.

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 04:18 PM
Sure, here's a recent thread on the freemasons, you can read my response to a freemason in that thread...

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=108411



Wow, it's going to take me a little while to make it through that thread. I apparently didn't have access to it either until just recently. Will try to summarize a response here soon since that thread is closed.

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 05:10 PM
Diffangle,

I read through that other thread, and there is so much material there, I may be able to respond to only a couple of your questions here. If there is anything specific you'd like to bring up here, I'd be happy to go over it with you.

On the other thread you asked about "Jahbulon", and posted that it was a "symbolic or ceremonial name for God" in Freemasonry. It is not. Similar words can be found in some (not all) versions of the Royal Arch degree in Masonry, but it is never said to be a name of God, ceremonial or otherwise.

You also asked about the term "Worshipful Master", which in Freemasonry is the title of the presiding officer of the Lodge. The word "worshipful" is a middle English term meaning "honorable", and is still used in that capacity in England today (remember, Freemasonry is of medieval English origin). For example, the English refer to their judges as "Your Worship" instead of "Your Honor", and political figures are also given that appelation (i.e., the Right Worshipful Lord Mayor of London). "Master" also is of English Lodge origin, as Masters of Lodges were required to have been legally recognized and licensed Master Masons back when Freemasonry was a guild for stonemasons. The term is not irreligious.

You also asked about Ex-Masons For Jesus, whether they were liars and fakes. First, let me state that the organization has about 6 members worldwide, 2 of whom I know and have debated many times in the past (Duane Washum and Mike Gentry). I probably wouldn't go as far as to call the liars or fakes, but they do not portray an accurate picture of Freemasonry, and are aware of it.

stillforgiven
Jan 9th 2008, 05:48 PM
I have a question about Masons, to see if what my mother told me is true or not. My dad is a non-active 32nd degree, member of the Scottish Rite. Mom said Dad will be buried with his apron and something else (can't remember what) even if the family protests it. Is this true?

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 05:52 PM
I have a question about Masons, to see if what my mother told me is true or not. My dad is a non-active 32nd degree, member of the Scottish Rite. Mom said Dad will be buried with his apron and something else (can't remember what) even if the family protests it. Is this true?

No. We perform a Masonic memorial service only at the request of the family. If the body is present, the deceased brother's apron is placed on the coffin during the service, and is presented to the widow at the conclusion. If the deceased brother is a veteran and the flag drapes his coffin, another brother simply holds the apron during the service.

Masons can be buried with their aprons should they so desire and make that request, but I've never personally ever heard of that happening, as most of us prefer our families to have them.

stillforgiven
Jan 9th 2008, 06:00 PM
No. We perform a Masonic memorial service only at the request of the family. If the body is present, the deceased brother's apron is placed on the coffin during the service, and is presented to the widow at the conclusion. If the deceased brother is a veteran and the flag drapes his coffin, another brother simply holds the apron during the service.

Masons can be buried with their aprons should they so desire and make that request, but I've never personally ever heard of that happening, as most of us prefer our families to have them.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was still in HS I think when Mom showed me the apron (and I still think there was something else), and told me that. I didn't like the idea of being told what I would or wouldn't do with my own Dad when he died. Know what I mean?

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 06:06 PM
Thanks for clearing that up. I was still in HS I think when Mom showed me the apron (and I still think there was something else), and told me that. I didn't like the idea of being told what I would or wouldn't do with my own Dad when he died. Know what I mean?

lol, yeah, a fraternal organization would be hard pressed into finding a legal precedent to overrule a family's wishes in that case.

I was present at 2 different Masonic funerals in the last few weeks, both in December. One of those brothers was a Past Master of my Lodge, the other was non-active. Both families requested Masonic Rites.

Usually, the mortuaries request the names and phone numbers of local Lodge Secretaries so that they can contact the appropriate parties should a family want a Masonic memorial.

As Secretary of my Lodge, I check the obituaries every day to see if we've had any membership deaths. If any member dies without their family requesting a service, I simply send the widow or oldest child a condolence card on behalf of the Lodge.

CrownedOne
Jan 9th 2008, 08:20 PM
Obviously, I can't read the thread posted before because I am a newbe and have maybe 8 post in my name. Because of the vast amount of information being discussed the less ambiguous statements would be helpful for clarity purpose. I am not as knowledgeable as Knights Templar but I have done my share of research because Freemasonary believes in education and because of the value I place on my relationship with Jesus Christ. I feel that Freemasonary has made me a better man and also a better Christian. Do I feel it is for everyone. No, I don't. I think you need to pray about it and seek God before you embark on a journey of this magnitude.

CrownedOne
Jan 9th 2008, 08:48 PM
Knights Templar I enjoy your post immensely . I can tell you have spent allot of time researching the subject. So when are you going to write a book?:D

Free Indeed
Jan 9th 2008, 09:23 PM
Knights Templar I enjoy your post immensely . I can tell you have spent allot of time researching the subject. So when are you going to write a book?:D

Probably never, I spend to much time arguing with people on the Internet!

:rofl:

bornagain
Jan 10th 2008, 01:16 AM
A lot of different views on this subject and thats ok. Personally I have to do what the Lord asks of me. I have several Masons in my family. My Grandpa, two Uncles,My brother and yes formally ME. I dont have any horror stories to tell you. I wasnt very involved although I held the Master level. When I became a Christian in 2005, It became very clear to me that I wasnt supposed to be affiliated with this organization any longer. I didnt know why. My brother was a little irratated at me. I dont have an explanation only that I had to get out. No person influenced me. I have nothing against the organization or its members but I have to answer for myself and I had to stop.

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 03:45 PM
I think that's fair, and no one should join or remain in any organization if it goes against their conscience, fraternal or otherwise. There's always room for disagreement, and different people have different opinions. It doesn't bother me at all if someone disagrees with my ideas honestly, but my own conscience requires me to defend them if they are misrepresented.

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 03:57 PM
I wonder how many Masons can recite as much scripture as they can Masonic Catechisms?

I wonder if just because we feel it's 'OK' means we can commit more time and effort to Masonic teachings than to our Bibles and scripture?

Just some thoughts....

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 04:10 PM
I wonder how many Masons can recite as much scripture as they can Masonic Catechisms?

I wonder if just because we feel it's 'OK' menas we can commit more time and effort to Masonic teachings than to our Bibles and scripture?

Just some thoughts....

It seems as if you're insinuating that Christian Masons spend too much time in Masonic study and not enough in Christian study. No doubt, in some cases, this is true.

But, of course, it's true not only of Christian Masons, but also Christian sports fans, Christian stamp collectors, Christian Rotary Club members, and anybody else with a hobby.

In Masonry, somewhere around 15% of our members are "active" members, i.e., they attend meetings and other functions. The other 85% are non-active: the only time they devote to Masonry is about 5 minutes per year, when they write their checks to pay their membership dues every December.

I can't speak for that 85%, but as for the average 15% in active membership in my experience, they tend to have above average knowledge of biblical subjects.

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 04:21 PM
It seems as if you're insinuating that Christian Masons spend too much time in Masonic study and not enough in Christian study. No doubt, in some cases, this is true.

That's exactly what I am insinuating.


But, of course, it's true not only of Christian Masons, but also Christian sports fans, Christian stamp collectors, Christian Rotary Club members, and anybody else with a hobby.

True and a very fair statement. But God never said which idols were the most false. Just that idolatry of any kind(holding something above our dedication to the Lord) was a sin in His sight



In Masonry, somewhere around 15% of our members are "active" members, i.e., they attend meetings and other functions. The other 85% are non-active: the only time they devote to Masonry is about 5 minutes per year, when they write their checks to pay their membership dues every December.

I doubt that. No offense, but I really doubt that. There's no way these members could recite the long discourses required in certain ceremonies and follow the rituals required in the lodges without staying very 'brushed up' on Masonic teachings and requirements.



I can't speak for that 85%, but as for the average 15% in active membership in my experience, they tend to have above average knowledge of biblical subjects.

I mean no offense by this, but so what? I've been on many forums and boards where the atheists have more 'biblical knowledge' than most of the believers. Biblical knowledge as a standard is Gnosticism. I just think this (Masons) is something that definitely hurts a believer's witness and certainly takes away from time that could be spent on more Kingdom centered activities. (Yes, sports can do the same thing.)

If I could just ask an honest question of you Knight Templar, can you recite as much scripture as you can catechisms?

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 04:38 PM
I doubt that. No offense, but I really doubt that.

Don't, it's a legitimate statistic. If a Lodge has 500 members, roughly 75 will be active.



There's no way these members could recite the long discourses required in certain ceremonies and follow the rituals required in the lodges without staying very 'brushed up' on Masonic teachings and requirements.

lol....most Masons don't know much at all about Masonic teachings or requirements. they join because their dad or grandpa was a Mason, show up a few times, get their degrees, and you never see them again. Or they just become Masons because they want to become Shriners.

The only ones who stay "brushed up" are the *active* members I mentioned, which averages about 15%.



I mean no offense by this, but so what?

Hey, I was thinking the same thing, but you're the one who asked! :pp



If I could just ask an honest question of you Knight Templar, can you recite as much scripture as you can catechisms?

As for me personally, I consider myself well-versed in the Bible, theology, and Church history, as well as in Freemasonry.

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 04:45 PM
Hey, I was thinking the same thing, but you're the one who asked! :pp




As for me personally, I consider myself well-versed in the Bible, theology, and Church history, as well as in Freemasonry.

Maybe things are different here in the South but my grandfather (a Worshipful Master) met week after week after week with prospects drilling catechisms into their heads and it was much more than 5 minutes each time.

As far as the biblical knowledge, I didn't ask anywhere about biblical knowledge. I asked if Masons generally can quote from memory as much scripture as they can catechisms. A question you still haven't answered but that's OK. I can't quote as much scripture as I can song lyrics either.

But I'm not signed up for Singing Bee and dedicating a lot of my time, money, and resources to it either.....that's the point.

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 05:19 PM
Maybe things are different here in the South but my grandfather (a Worshipful Master) met week after week after week with prospects drilling catechisms into their heads and it was much more than 5 minutes each time.

No, you were right, I misunderstood what you meant (and I'm in the south too).

It's just unusual for a Master to do all that himself, so yes, I'm sure he stayed *very* busy. Usually, the Master appoints an Education Committee who take turns meeting with the candidates for Catechism, so it's not as time-consuming. If one man is trying to do it all himself, that's a heckuva job.


As far as the biblical knowledge, I didn't ask anywhere about biblical knowledge. I asked if Masons generally can quote from memory as much scripture as they can catechisms. A question you still haven't answered but that's OK. I can't quote as much scripture as I can song lyrics either.

In this, I would suppose that Masons are just like non-Masons. Some can rattle off loads of Bible verses, while most cannot. As for me personally, I know what the Bible says, and where to look up the verses I'm looking for in a given situation, but if you want me to recite from memory word by word, like most everyone else, I'd be limited in my ability.

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 05:28 PM
No, you were right, I misunderstood what you meant (and I'm in the south too).

It's just unusual for a Master to do all that himself, so yes, I'm sure he stayed *very* busy. Usually, the Master appoints an Education Committee who take turns meeting with the candidates for Catechism, so it's not as time-consuming. If one man is trying to do it all himself, that's a heckuva job.

Grandpa didn't handle them all, just the ones that were assigned to him I guess. I almost joined the fraternity myself until I really started looking into it. I think it hurt his feelings and for that I'm sorry, but I'm glad I didn't join. Again, my point in that post was that it took a wee bit more than 5 minutes.


In this, I would suppose that Masons are just like non-Masons. Some can rattle off loads of Bible verses, while most cannot. As for me personally, I know what the Bible says, and where to look up the verses I'm looking for in a given situation, but if you want me to recite from memory word by word, like most everyone else, I'd be limited in my ability.

And that was my point. I'm sure that you know your Masonic catechisms word for word and can recite them at the drop of a hat.

If you (or any Mason for that matter) feel like you haven't been convicted by the Holy Spirit to remove yourself from the Masons, that's between you and God.

I'm not judging you, I just think there's so much 'iffy' stuff, it's too detrimental to a Christian's witness. Actually I should say too detrimental to THIS Christian's witness.

God bless.

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 05:37 PM
Again, my point in that post was that it took a wee bit more than 5 minutes.

True, but I never said it only took 5 minutes!

Cathechism meetings are hosted by volunteers, and yes, it does take time to complete a new member's education. But I am thankful we have such dedicated brothers who are willing to take the time to mentor our new members, it says a lot about friendship and brotherhood.

Besides, it's often fun as well. It gives us a chance to get to know our new members more intimately. It's not all about drilling catechism, it's also about meeting together over doughnuts and coffee and making new friends.



And that was my point. I'm sure that you know your Masonic catechisms word for word and can recite them at the drop of a hat.

lol....probably not, although I might could get it close.

Cathechisms are what the candidates learn when they are in the process of becoming Masons. But after they become Masons, they generally stop studying them, unless they become members of the Education Committee.

Seeing as how it has been quite a few years since I've joined, and somewhere around 8 or 9 since I've taught cathechism, I'd be a little rusty, I assure you.

diffangle
Jan 10th 2008, 06:00 PM
it says a lot about friendship and brotherhood.

Friends and brothers you have to pay for. ;)

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 07:01 PM
Friends and brothers you have to pay for.

Personally, I think that's a real cheap shot. How much do you give to your church, btw, so you can be a member?

If somebody wants to be a Mason, he is expected to pay his annual dues, just like in all other clubs and organizations, so the Lodge can pay its expenses. Contrary to what you may think, the utility bills don't pay themselves.

Since Lodge dues in my jurisdiction average $50 per year, I hardly think that paying them is a great hardship, nor a particularly worthwhile way of "having to pay for" friends.

:thumbsdn:

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 07:06 PM
Personally, I think that's a real cheap shot. How much do you give to your church, btw, so you can be a member?

Most churches don't attach tithes and offerings to membership.

If I stopped giving to my church, I wouldn't be 'black balled'.

( I know you weren't directing your post at me, but just thought I'd chime in anyway.)

Free Indeed
Jan 10th 2008, 07:12 PM
Most churches don't attach tithes and offerings to membership.

There is a huge Southern Baptist Church in my area that actually requires all new members to submit W-2's. No joke.


If I stopped giving to my church, I wouldn't be 'black balled'.

If we are members of an organization, whether it be a church, a lodge, or civic club, we have a duty to financially support it the best we can. Like I mentioned, the bills don't pay themselves.

If a Mason cannot pay his dues for a legitimate reason, then either another brother will pay them for him or the lodge will remit his dues. If, on the other hand, the guy is making a hundred grand a year and is in perfect health, he will be suspended for non-payment.

AtHisFeet
Jan 10th 2008, 07:26 PM
There is a huge Southern Baptist Church in my area that actually requires all new members to submit W-2's. No joke.

Someone should report them. I don't think that's a SBC endorsed procedure.




If we are members of an organization, whether it be a church, a lodge, or civic club, we have a duty to financially support it the best we can. Like I mentioned, the bills don't pay themselves.

If a Mason cannot pay his dues for a legitimate reason, then either another brother will pay them for him or the lodge will remit his dues. If, on the other hand, the guy is making a hundred grand a year and is in perfect health, he will be suspended for non-payment.

There's a difference between duty and obligation. (Again, I have no issue with dues, I was just saying comparing it to church offerings isn't exactly apples to apples)

CrownedOne
Jan 11th 2008, 12:14 AM
Wow, This topic started out good and now its getting below the belt. Personally, the friendships I have made in the lodge would more then likely continue if I decided to leave today. I have no problem paying my dues because I vote where that money is to go too. I'm not sure what moved the discussion that way but I found that comment very inappropriate and irrelevantly to the topic. As for church tithes I don't think it is relevant to this discussion either. I could talk about the misuse of church funds that some churches have done but that would serve no purpose and does not count for the majority of churches. Honestly, that comment sounded allot like the response I would get when witnessing to a non Christian and they would say well look at PTL that guy said he was a Christian. I'm giving you a virtual hug diffangle :hug: I'm your Christian brother.

diffangle
Jan 11th 2008, 02:03 AM
Personally, I think that's a real cheap shot. How much do you give to your church, btw, so you can be a member?



Wow, This topic started out good and now its getting below the belt. Personally, the friendships I have made in the lodge would more then likely continue if I decided to leave today. I have no problem paying my dues because I vote where that money is to go too. I'm not sure what moved the discussion that way but I found that comment very inappropriate and irrelevantly to the topic. As for church tithes I don't think it is relevant to this discussion either. I could talk about the misuse of church funds that some churches have done but that would serve no purpose and does not count for the majority of churches. Honestly, that comment sounded allot like the response I would get when witnessing to a non Christian and they would say well look at PTL that guy said he was a Christian. I'm giving you a virtual hug diffangle :hug: I'm your Christian brother.
Aww, come on guys, take it easy. :D Here's a quote from another mason on the thread I linked to earlier...



and not to involve himself with clandestine lodges that have broken away from the body of masonic Grand Lodges.

It's one reason I was led to believe that masons who venture from the "body" are not to be associated with. How many ex-mason's are you guys close to? :hmm: Also, what urged you guys to join the mason's?

diffangle
Jan 11th 2008, 02:04 AM
I'm giving you a virtual hug diffangle :hug:

Thanks, I'll take it. :D :hug:

Oh and KT I'm not a member of a church so I don't pay to be part of it.

Free Indeed
Jan 11th 2008, 03:18 PM
Aww, come on guys, take it easy. :D Here's a quote from another mason on the thread I linked to earlier...


It's one reason I was led to believe that masons who venture from the "body" are not to be associated with. How many ex-mason's are you guys close to? :hmm:

That is true only in a Masonic context. You can associate with whomever you want on the street, but Masons don't attend fake Lodges.

An example would be the Grand Orient of France, who used to be a legitimate Masonic organization. In the late 1800's, that organization removed the requirement that candidates for membership must believe in the existence of God, which ipso facto legalized initiating atheists. We don't have anything personally against atheists, and recognize their right to unbelief just as we have the right to be believers; but that legislation violated one of the ancient landmarks of the fraternity, so we can no longer recognize members of the Grand Orient of France as legitimate Masons. Therefore, we cannot visit their lodges, and they cannot visit ours. If a brother wants to be friends with one of their members on his own time, that's his business.

As for how many ex-Masons I am close to, I don't personally know any ex-Masons, only a couple I've met on the Internet.


Also, what urged you guys to join the mason's?

Several reasons. Foremost, I was fascinated with its history. The first book ever published in the American Colonies was "The Constitutions of the Freemasons" by Benjamin Franklin, who served as Grand Master (highest ranking Masonic official) in Pennsylvania. It is also worth noting that the Constitution of the United States is strongly based on the Masonic Constitutions published by Franklin.

The fraternity had an all-star roster of our founding fathers: Franklin, Washington, Revere, Hancock, Lafeyette, etc., were not only Masons, but were Masonic leaders. In the Revolutionary War, American soldiers wore their Masonic jewels into battle as badges of honor, and held Tent Lodges in the fields. Lafayette himself was initiated in a Tent Lodge with George Washington acting as Worshipful Master. A battle drum covered in the American flag served as the altar. To me, this was inspiring.

The more I learned about Masonry, the more fascinated I became. And after I became a Mason, it didn't long for me to understand the importance of the fraternity's charities, and the hope they bring to people.

Jollyrogers
Jan 11th 2008, 06:13 PM
That is true only in a Masonic context. You can associate with whomever you want on the street, but Masons don't attend fake Lodges.

An example would be the Grand Orient of France, who used to be a legitimate Masonic organization. In the late 1800's, that organization removed the requirement that candidates for membership must believe in the existence of God, which ipso facto legalized initiating atheists. We don't have anything personally against atheists, and recognize their right to unbelief just as we have the right to be believers; but that legislation violated one of the ancient landmarks of the fraternity, so we can no longer recognize members of the Grand Orient of France as legitimate Masons. Therefore, we cannot visit their lodges, and they cannot visit ours. If a brother wants to be friends with one of their members on his own time, that's his business.

q.

That is where it gets a bit confusing, Most local mason groups here where I live refuse to recognise Black Masons (Prince Hall Lodges). They call them illegal lodges however when you look thru the history, Prince Hall applied for and recieved a legitimate charter from England before the revolution (he is a war hero).

Another confusing one to me is that american masons claim Paul Revere was a legitimate mason, however he belonged to a clandestine lodge that never recieved a charter from England. In fact there was a kind of cold war between his lodge and the lodge that Ben Franklin was a member of because of this.

My point in bringing all this up, It seems to me that who is legit and who is not always changes depending on who you ask. It is like asking a mason what he believes, or what masonary is. The answer changes with each new person you ask.

Free Indeed
Jan 11th 2008, 07:11 PM
That is where it gets a bit confusing, Most local mason groups here where I live refuse to recognise Black Masons (Prince Hall Lodges). They call them illegal lodges however when you look thru the history, Prince Hall applied for and recieved a legitimate charter from England before the revolution (he is a war hero).

Prince Hall was probably a revolutionary soldier who fought at Bunker Hill. It's hard to say sure, because they were more than a dozen "Prince Halls" who lived in the area, and it wasn't well documented.

As for regularity of Prince Hall Masons, different opinions continue to float around. They were marked clandestine not becuase they were black, but because they stopped paying Grand Lodge dues, which resulted in suspension of their charter. They were always "regular" in the sense that their work and rules were legitimate, but "clandestine" in the sense that they operated without proper Grand Lodge authority. Of course, to try to gain some sense of legitmacy, they began creating their own Grand Lodges.

It should again be pointed out that the controversy is not due to race. Prince Hall Lodges admit whites, and mainstream Lodges admit non-whites (although PH is predominantly black and mainstream are predominately white).


Another confusing one to me is that american masons claim Paul Revere was a legitimate mason, however he belonged to a clandestine lodge that never recieved a charter from England. In fact there was a kind of cold war between his lodge and the lodge that Ben Franklin was a member of because of this.

Actually, Revere was a regular Mason, and member of Green Dragon Lodge A.Y.M. in Boston, which met at the Green Dragon Tavern. Revere was also Provincial Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Ancient York Masons of Massachusetts.

The controversy you mentioned comes from the fact that at that point in time the Ancient York Masons and the Free and Accepted Masons didn't recognize each other, and each had their own Grand Lodges. Eventually though, they all agreed each other was regular, and merged. The major difference was that the Ancient York Masons recognized the Royal Arch degree, which the Free and Accepted Masons did not. When they merged, it was agreed by all parties to recognize the Royal Arch as a part of Craft Masonry, but to take it out of the Lodge and put in Chapters of Royal Arch Masons.


My point in bringing all this up, It seems to me that who is legit and who is not always changes depending on who you ask. It is like asking a mason what he believes, or what masonary is. The answer changes with each new person you ask.

"Legitimate", unlike the other things you mentioned, are not matters of opinion though, because they are spelled out in the regulations of the Grand Lodge. A new book is published every year called "List of Lodges", which names all regular Lodges and who recognize whom. Of course, Grand Lodges have the authority to grant recognition to previously irregular organizations should they meet the requirements and request recognition.

CrownedOne
Jan 11th 2008, 07:58 PM
Man, Knights Templar every time I read one of your post I learn something. Can you come to our lodge and lecture? Seriously, I think I will print this for a resource later because I'm certain this discussion is not new. Where do you hail from? and whats with the "Don't taze me bro" LOL

Free Indeed
Jan 12th 2008, 04:26 PM
I'm from South Carolina.

Regarding the divisions in the fraternity, the Grand Lodge of England F&AM merged with the Athol Grand Lodge A.Y.M., giving birth to the present United Grand Lodge of England. Similar merges followed immediately in the USA.

"Don't taze me, bro!" came from the infamous incident several months ago at a John Kerry speech. A university student asked the senator several questions, but became more and more beligerent. Police tried to restrain him, a scuffle ensued, and one fired their taser, while the guy kept yelling "Don't taze me bro!"

sojourner42
Jan 12th 2008, 05:46 PM
In Masonry, somewhere around 15% of our members are "active" members, i.e., they attend meetings and other functions. The other 85% are non-active: the only time they devote to Masonry is about 5 minutes per year, when they write their checks to pay their membership dues every December.

What's the reason for maintaining a membership if they aren't actively taking part? It seems odd to pay for something that you don't plan to use.

stillforgiven
Jan 12th 2008, 09:18 PM
What's the reason for maintaining a membership if they aren't actively taking part? It seems odd to pay for something that you don't plan to use.

I've wondered that for years, because my dad still does.

Free Indeed
Jan 14th 2008, 02:33 PM
What's the reason for maintaining a membership if they aren't actively taking part? It seems odd to pay for something that you don't plan to use.

That's a good question. The answer is, I have no idea. We have tons of card-carrying members all over the country that haven't set foot in a Lodge room in many years. There are several of them that make donations to Masonic charities along with paying their dues, so I assume they want to support those efforts.

But as for the other guys, some do stop paying after a while, while others continue to pay every year.