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bibleguy51
Oct 27th 2007, 08:24 PM
Revelation 20:13,15 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I know that Martin Luther was suspicious of the Book of Revelation because it seems to indicated, at least on the surface, that you're judged by your works on whether you'll go to heaven. Also, he was skeptical of the book of James:

James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

But all this seems to go against what Paul taught:

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 3:20, 28 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Romans 4:2-5 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

So how does this all fit together. Are you justified by faith alone or are you judged if you're good enough to enter heaven?

MailmanGuy
Oct 27th 2007, 08:49 PM
So how does this all fit together. Are you justified by faith alone or are you judged if you're good enough to enter heaven?

By Faith alone.

The contextual audience that John and James and Peter are speaking to (that Paul was not for the most part) are Jewish Israelites [Gal 2:9] who knew nothing about this "Grace stuff" but only knew the Law which was of works, works, and more works.

James was explaining to his people (Jews) that they will do good works but for an entirely different reason. Not to be justified as it was under the old covenant, but because you have been (past tense) justified in Christ and His finished work under the new covenant.

Under the Law of Moses you worked to achieve your salvation (which no one could do).

By Grace you work because you have received salvation.

GJT
Oct 27th 2007, 08:53 PM
James is just saying don't just believe go out show what you believe in. What you believe in saves people and what we believe in is God and Jesus the personfication of everything that is good and love. Its up to you to decide what you want to do, God gives us free will. Do you want to just believe in something or show what you believe in because what you believe in you love. Do you want to fight someone and hurt them, or do you want to hug them so they can feel what you believe in and we can all join in one hug of love in heaven so none of our brother or sisters have to be left out?

BlessedMan
Oct 27th 2007, 11:07 PM
Maybe some people do not know who James was. James is also known as James the Greater and was a relative of Christ, possibly his brother. There is a reasonableness about his writing that I associate with main line Christianity. I think that both the examples used to illustrate the difference between these men's doctrine is just a difference in emphasis. I do not think it can be argued that Christians do evil things while they are under Christ's influence. The other thing I would mention is that Paul seems to be emphasising that Christ's salvation of us is not something we deserve by virtue of livingmoral lives. So I do not see these doctrines as being incompatible.

The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.
James 3:17

StevenC
Oct 27th 2007, 11:20 PM
Under the Law of Moses you worked to achieve your salvation (which no one could do).

Maybe a better way to put it is that Jews judged righteousness according to the law.

As others have said though, James is not in disagreement with Paul rather he dispels the myth that faith is words alone. Rather he says that faith can be seen in the actions of those who really have it.

Even Jesus said by their fruit you shall know them. This is no different than what James is saying. Paul on the other hand was trying to help people understand that salvation is not obtained through legalism but by faith.

So Salvation is obtained by Faith in God and Jesus Christ, Good works (not legalism) are the fruit of that faith.

-Steven

Pleroo
Oct 27th 2007, 11:27 PM
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.



Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.



Salvation is a gift of God. Faith and works are both of God, not ourselves. Faith is from Him not of ourselves (not from our own will or effort to have faith), works are of Him not ourselves (not of our own will or effort to do good works). There's no boasting because we can't take credit for any of it. It's all Him.

StevenC
Oct 27th 2007, 11:37 PM
Salvation is a gift of God. Faith and works are both of God, not ourselves. Faith is from Him not of ourselves (not from our own will or effort to have faith), works are of Him not ourselves (not of our own will or effort to do good works). There's no boasting because we can't take credit for any of it. It's all Him.

Good point, but many people believe that their free will constitutes a choice in the matter. As for me, I believe my faith is a gift from God.

-Steven

UltraVR
Oct 28th 2007, 12:18 AM
This is only confusing if you look at justification in the same way Martin Luther did, and make a strict dichotomy between faith and works. To all of the New Testament writers, justification was a gift from God that was given through faith, because of what Christ did. Works were the natural result, and the fruit of this faith and this justification, so the two go hand in hand. However, it is always the faith that is the cause for justification, and never the works.

Works are just a by-product.

BlessedMan
Oct 28th 2007, 01:20 AM
James is just saying don't just believe go out show what you believe in. What you believe in saves people and what we believe in is God and Jesus the personfication of everything that is good and love.
I agree we have a faith and the basis is that faith is God is good and caring. Jesus is the portal we pass through to reach into his Love.

Bandit
Oct 28th 2007, 02:34 AM
So how does this all fit together. Are you justified by faith alone or are you judged if you're good enough to enter heaven?


I think the question is just what is meant by faith? Does a person think one way, yet act another? If God says that those who live a certain way are saved, is it enough to agree with God in principle, or must one actually live as God prescribes to be saved?

When we are saved by faith in Christ, just what does that mean? Does this mean that we simply agree that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and then go on living however we choose? Or does faith in Christ also require us to accept and submit to His moral teaching? So, if we truely believe Jesus is the Eternal King, does that not imply that we also accept our position as servant? And if we refuse to serve, did we truely believe?

Bandit

walked
Oct 28th 2007, 02:50 AM
The evidence of your faith: 'obedience' is what will bring you into a position where He can reveal more of Himself to you, which will in turn transform you into His likeness with each new revelation more and more as you continue in obedience to His revelations to you.

You are justified by His sacrifice. His sacrifice can reborn your spirit, this spirit desires to please God, pleasing God requires faith, the evidence of faith is obedience, this obedience brings you closer to the One who can transforms you and who can justify/qualify you.

...Only by His mercy, we cant deserve any of this!
I can safely say that If I am justified its by me actively participating/partnering in the merciful plan of grace from God the Father, and not by my faith alone.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 04:06 AM
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

This IMO isn't really saying anything different than the previous statements of the Opening Post.

I suggest a study on the Word Faith in both OT and NT, and really disecting it. Emunah... Is more than just a mental grasp of having faith, but it's action, deeds... based on trusting and believing in God, just like Abraham did.

I have posted on the word Emunah (faith) before, in several threads on this message board. It's really interesting.

Shalom my friends,
Tanja

Alaska
Oct 28th 2007, 04:22 AM
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."



This is taken out of context. The fact that only verses 8, 9 are used is in itself evidence of that.

By leaving off part of a context the incomplete part can appear to mean something different that what the entire context is really saying if it were allowed to be included.

Take for example what appears to be the meaning of the following incomplete statement whose full context is not included:
[An example will be provided, providing that someone is interested.]

Alaska
Oct 28th 2007, 04:50 AM
Romans 3:20, 28 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Romans 4:2-5 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."



Above in Rom. 3:20,28, Paul is referring to the way it was before Jesus came. They didn't have the gift of the Holy Ghost and regeneration that changes the individual from the inside as the result of accepting the atonement that Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection.
No man is justified by trying to keep the law (OT law that did not provide the clarification of the truth and power to obey through the gift of the Holy Spirit.) The practice of circumcision is also found in the context of Rom. 3, which was a requirement under the OT law which is not now required.

In Romans 4 as quoted above, consider this:
There is a difference between someone trying in and of themselves to obey the OT (including the moral things the NT also requires adherence to) as opposed to believing what Jesus did and receiving a change of nature (being saved) which changes our behaviour from sinful to obedient. The one is given to us as a result of accepting the terms of the NT and the other was an attempt to earn righteousbness as of out of themselves.
The obedience performed by those who have received the Holy Spirit in Jesus is not of themselves lest they should boast for their works of obedience are claimed by God, the giver of the Holy Spirit, as His workmanship and not their own though they are being performed in and by them. Eph. 2:8,9,10,5

Baerly
Oct 28th 2007, 05:21 AM
Here is a couple of good lessons on faith alone.The words "faith only" are found in the New Testament,but the word of God says we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24). That should tell us something. Let us be led by the word of God (Spirit) and not by doctrines of men (Rom.8:14) (Mt.15:9).


2. Toney Smith: Is "Faith Only" A Biblical Concept? (http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/SmithT01.htm)

Is "Faith Only" A Biblical Concept? Toney Smith Faith is an important and essential part in the life of one who seeks to be saved. Without faith, it...
URL: http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/SmithT01.htm - 7k - 30 Jan 2005


3. Ryan W. Kepke: God Has Never Blessed "Faith Alone" (http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/KepkeRW7.htm)

God Has Never Blessed "Faith Alone" Ryan W. Kepke Have you ever wondered how Paul and James could quote the same passage ( Gen. 15:6 ) and not...
URL: http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/KepkeRW7.htm - 10k - 30 Jan 2005

in love Baerly

Baerly
Oct 28th 2007, 05:34 AM
What do you think about (John 6:29) which says belief is a work?

Is believing working your way to heaven also?

The word of God says it (belief) is a work just like confessing, repenting, or being baptized in water for the remission of sins. So they cannot be separated. If doing one is working your way to heaven,they all are.

The key is that none of the above is working our way to heaven.They are works of righteousness (a labor of love) (Heb.6:9,10).These are works which the Lord requires his disciples to do in order to please Him (1Thess.4:1-3) (Phil.1:27) (1John 3:22-24).

in love Baerly

Alaska
Oct 28th 2007, 06:28 AM
What do you think about (John 6:29) which says belief is a work?

Is believing working your way to heaven also?

The word of God says it (belief) is a work just like confessing, repenting, or being baptized in water for the remission of sins. So they cannot be separated. If doing one is working your way to heaven,they all are.

The key is that none of the above is working our way to heaven.They are works of righteousness (a labor of love) (Heb.6:9,10).These are works which the Lord requires his disciples to do in order to please Him (1Thess.4:1-3) (Phil.1:27) (1John 3:22-24).

in love Baerly


Your above admission that faith is a work is helpful to clarify the whole mess created by the gross misunderstanding of the out-of-context verses, Eph. 2:8,9, and leaving off verse 10 and ignoring verse 5.
If you are willing to admit that faith is a work, then you should also agree that praying repenting and yielding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit are also works. No problem with admitting that these things need to be done in order to be saved. For example, can someone be saved and not ever pray? So some work is necessary to be done in order to be saved.
So the idea that a person is saved, but without needing to do any work first is utter nonsense. Where in the OT was someone saved that first didn't do what was prescribed for them first so that they could be saved? Noah worked out his own salvation.
We are saved by works after the manner which you agree with (works do in fact have to be done), however, we are not saved by works, lest we should boast, "for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works that God has before ordained that we should walk in them".
The full context shows:
Paul is not at all speaking of works as though works are not required for salvation, He is speaking of works that are necessary as not what we can glory in as if they were all of our own strength, "lest any man should boast".
It is Christ that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Christians glory in Jesus as their source of strength that has changed them so that they continue to believe, pray, repent...

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 02:42 PM
It might do folks well to do a check on their wording and realize that the only time "faith alone" is used in Scripture is in that passage in James. ;) In that perhaps you will understand what James was countering. It wasn't Paul's teaching but the twisting of Paul's teaching much as Peter spoke of in his second letter.

2 Peter 3:14 ¶Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness,
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2007, 04:23 PM
So are people saying that the foundation of the Reformation - that our standing with God is "justification by faith alone" - was a fallacy?

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 04:49 PM
In that perhaps you will understand what James was countering. It wasn't Paul's teaching but the twisting of Paul's teaching much as Peter spoke of in his second letter.
So are you saying Paul and James were in disagreement ?

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 05:12 PM
So are people saying that the foundation of the Reformation - that our standing with God is "justification by faith alone" - was a fallacy?
Did you find in Scripture where it says "faith alone"? All me reading comes up with "by faith" and doesn;t mention that "alone" word at all. So if that is the case... now doesn;t Jame's make much more sense?

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 05:14 PM
So are you saying Paul and James were in disagreement ?

Shalom,
TanjaUh... I'm thinking you didn't read what I said!!! Paul and James and Peter were in agreement. It was the twisting of Paul's words that James was countering as did Peter in his second letter.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 05:21 PM
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

The way i see it is: Paul wrote in Romans something quite along the same lines:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 05:25 PM
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

The way i see it is: Paul wrote in Romans something quite along the same lines:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Shalom,
Tanja
Sure... that's my point. Paul never penned the word "alone" in his text. When Luther translated the Bible in German he added that word yes... but that's about the only place you'll find that word written. It ain't in the Greek. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 05:58 PM
Ah ok, PP i see how you were approaching the text from that angle.

But i disagree:

Jas 2:24 Ye see3708 [5719] then5106 how that3754 by1537 works2041 a man444 is justified1344 [5743], and2532 not3756 by1537 faith4102 only3440.

G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.



Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 06:45 PM
Ah ok, PP i see how you were approaching the text from that angle.

But i disagree:

Jas 2:24 Ye see3708 [5719] then5106 how that3754 by1537 works2041 a man444 is justified1344 [5743], and2532 not3756 by1537 faith4102 only3440.

G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.



Shalom,
Tanja
You disagree with what?

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 06:54 PM
Sure... that's my point. Paul never penned the word "alone" in his text. When Luther translated the Bible in German he added that word yes... but that's about the only place you'll find that word written. It ain't in the Greek.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
Ah ok, PP i see how you were approaching the text from that angle.

But i disagree:

Jas 2:24 Ye see3708 [5719] then5106 how that3754 by1537 works2041 a man444 is justified1344 [5743], and2532 not3756 by1537 faith4102 only3440.

G3440
μόνον
monon
mon'-on
Neuter of G3441 as adverb; merely: - alone, but, only.



Shalom,
Tanja

You disagree with what?
I disagree with you saying that Paul never penned the word "alone" that is wasn't in the greek.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 06:58 PM
Why argue about omissions, additions or translations.
Why not ponder the principle being taught....

I agree with that walked, but i also understand that every single word is in scripture for a reason. Every jot and tittle has been placed there for a purpose. There's nothing done by God without a reason. Just like there was never a single person on this earth who ever lived, now living or going to live, without a purpose.

Shalom,
Tanja

walked
Oct 28th 2007, 06:58 PM
Why argue about omissions, additions or translations.
Why not ponder the principle being taught....

You are justified by His sacrifice. His sacrifice will reborn your spirit, this reborn spirit desires to please God, pleasing God requires faith, the evidence of faith is obedience, this obedience brings you closer to the One who can transforms you and, who will justify/qualify you.

He justifies me because of His mercy and plan of grace, I respond by showing evidence of my faith in Him.
That is the result of my pondering over this principle.
.....Do I ponder in error?

walked
Oct 28th 2007, 07:02 PM
I agree with that walked, but i also understand that every single word is in scripture for a reason. Every jot and tittle has been placed there for a purpose. There's nothing done by God without a reason. Just like there was never a single person on this earth who ever lived, now living or going to live, without a purpose.

Shalom,
Tanja

Hi friend,

jot and tittle is referring to text of scripture that were originally written in Hebrew in old testament, which has been beautifully preserved by that culture.

These words being discussed here were originally written in Greek and translations have polluted them, 'but for me' the principle being taught hasn't been polluted if I reference it with other similar scriptures in old and new testament, the truth is preserved there.
....Greek, English or Hebrew, It wont matter Gods Holy Spirit will reveal if you diligently seek understanding from above and not from men or mens translations, deletions or omissions.

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 07:07 PM
jot and tittle is referring to text of scripture that were originally written in Hebrew in old testament.
And that would make it irrelevant to the NT scriptures ? The whole thing is one book to me. What goes for the old also goes for the new, at least IMO.

I do however agree that translations perhaps have twisted things a smidgen.
And i also agree that the Old and New needs to be referenced.

Anyway, i didn't come here to argue, i just wanted to point out something.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 07:10 PM
I disagree with you saying that Paul never penned the word "alone" that is wasn't in the greek.

Shalom,
Tanja
Where did Paul say that it was by faith alone?

Alaska
Oct 28th 2007, 07:19 PM
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Some reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater by throwing out all works being connected with salvation when they should have thrown out only the outdated Mosaic laws and man made laws like the Catholics made up.


By works a man is justified (saved) and NOT by faith only

Even initially, coming to Jesus requires works: believing, repentance baptism...

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 07:41 PM
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Some reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater by throwing out all works being connected with salvation when they should have thrown out only the outdated Mosaic laws and man made laws like the Catholics made up.


By works a man is justified (saved) and NOT by faith only

Even initially, coming to Jesus requires works: believing, repentance baptism...
Exactly right in many ways. What Paul was speaking of was "works of the Law." The Catholic church became a law unto themselves and Luther against that sort of thing. Then today... now folks just count everything as works. You should pray but hey... it ain't about works so if you don't... don't get legalistic about it! You should read your Bible but if you don't... don't sweat it because it ain't about "works!" And you practice sin? Hey... it ain't about works so while you shouldn't sin we know you can't help yourself so therefore don't sweat it because hey... it ain't about works!

In other words... it got goofier as time went on. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Oct 28th 2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
I disagree with you saying that Paul never penned the word "alone" that is wasn't in the greek.

Shalom,
Tanja
Where did Paul say that it was by faith alone?

Oh nevermind it was a mistake, i obviously misread you , sorry.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Oct 28th 2007, 07:51 PM
Oh nevermind it was a mistake, i obviously misread you , sorry.

Shalom,
Tanja
Okay... shoot! I was wondering... but you kept on going and I was like... alrighty then! I don't get it! :lol:

Semi-tortured
Oct 29th 2007, 03:20 AM
I understand the argument on both sides, but one thing I have always had trouble with is at what point does God say, "Enough is enough. You aren't saved anymore." How may times are we allowed to be disobedient? What if we truly love God and Jesus, believe in Him fully, but still slip up once in a while. Does it then become the desire to do what is right that gets us into heaven? What is the criteria? I for one am trying to live every day for Jesus and I think WWJD all the time. I examine every aspect of my life to see if He'd have a problem with any of it. But there are things Im sure I still do that are wrong that I haven't the faintest idea are wrong. If I die doing that sin and not confessing, am I on my way to hell?

Salvation by works and salvation by grace are both slippery slopes that people can easily go sliding down. One side take it to the conclusion that could lead to the need for sinless perfection after you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. The other side can take it to the extreme of saying you're sorry and believing in Jesus is a get out of jail free card. I know people who live extremely godly lives. They truly love Jesus and seek to do His work, but they do a thing or two that are blatantly obvious to me that are sins, but they don't have a clue it is. Are they going to hell because the were unaware? If I drive my car off a cliff and say s*** on my way down as a reaction, does that send me to hell as it will be unrepented seeing as I just died?

There has to be a middle ground somewhere because otherwise there will be nobody in heaven or a lot more people in heaven than we thought there'd be. I know I'm gonna slip up again in various areas of my life. I will try my best not to, but I know it will happen eventually. I know there are probably things I have convinced myself are OK when in reality, they probably aren't, but I feel no convition on them. Will these things put me in hell?

The amount of believers Satan has turned against each other is maybe one of the most horrific things in today's world.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 01:34 PM
Did you find in Scripture where it says "faith alone"? All me reading comes up with "by faith" and doesn;t mention that "alone" word at all. So if that is the case... now doesn;t Jame's make much more sense?

You believe firmly that you can lose your salvation but you will never find a single verse that actually spells that out - yet it's something you believe the Bible teaches as a whole. I would beg to differ - if it does, then God either can't be trusted or the Bible contradicts itself.

I - along with all true, Bible-believing Protestants - believe that our standing with God is grounded on one great doctrine: justification by faith.

Having said that, while we are justified by faith alone, justifying faith is never alone and is always expressed in works.

Is this what you believe?

ProjectPeter
Oct 29th 2007, 01:47 PM
You believe firmly that you can lose your salvation but you will never find a single verse that actually spells that out - yet it's something you believe the Bible teaches as a whole.Uh... there are plenty of passages that spell out that one can fall from the faith. It spells it out very clearly as well. Nice try though. ;)


I would beg to differ - if it does, then God either can't be trusted or the Bible contradicts itself.A shame that you see it that way... Hope you are right because if you aren't... then those are some right harsh words to say about God.



I - along with all true, Bible-believing Protestants - believe that our standing with God is grounded on one great doctrine: justification by faith. And you bet. Notice though... you left off the "alone" in that. In that you will find agreement from folks like me. ;)



Having said that, while we are justified by faith alone, justifying faith is never alone and is always expressed in works.

Is this what you believe?No... you added that alone part again and by "faith alone" is not in the Bible. We are justified by faith. Period. Faith defined is active and ever present, ever working.

So there is no "alone" about it. It ain't about believing and that's it. Many believe that ain't making it.

RogerW
Oct 29th 2007, 02:43 PM
What do you think about (John 6:29) which says belief is a work?

Is believing working your way to heaven also?

The word of God says it (belief) is a work just like confessing, repenting, or being baptized in water for the remission of sins. So they cannot be separated. If doing one is working your way to heaven,they all are.

The key is that none of the above is working our way to heaven.They are works of righteousness (a labor of love) (Heb.6:9,10).These are works which the Lord requires his disciples to do in order to please Him (1Thess.4:1-3) (Phil.1:27) (1John 3:22-24).

in love Baerly

I think this is a good place for commentary. I agree the Bible teaches us that "faith" is a work. Since faith is a work, how can this work come from me for salvation, since Scripture clearly tells us we are saved by grace through faith, and this faith is a gift of God that no man may boast? The work of saving faith does not come from me, it is given or imputed to me that I might believe. It is not my work of faith that saves me, but Christ's faith working in me unto salvation. The work is not my own, but His work being done through me. Why? Because I am His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that He hath ordained that I should walk in them. How can I walk in them without His abiding presence working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure?

Saving faith is not of me, but of His faith imputed to me, and my work of faith after salvation is not of me, but of His Spirit working through me to do the things God has ordained I would do. So faith is indeed a work, but it is the work of Christ living in us that causes us to have eternal life, and enables us to continue in the work of faith ordained from before the foundation of the world. Salvation, and enduring eternal life are all of Christ, and none of me, for without Him I can do nothing. All that I am, all that I do is all the result of the work of faith that Christ perfomed on the cross, and now performs through me.

Many Blessings,
RW

Some will argue that this makes me a robot, and Christ is not about making us robots because He desires those who truly desire to come to Him of their own free will for life. Well to this I respond, Lord God make me a robot then, because I would much perfer being the Lord's robot, and live then the slave of satan, and death.

NavyFirefighter
Oct 29th 2007, 03:16 PM
If you want to know about revelation, this is the pastor that has studied it inside and out. Dr. John Hagee http://www.jhm.org/. He will explain about how we are saved by grace and how once we are in Heaven, our works are tried by fire. Yes your works are judged after you are in Heaven.

RogerW
Oct 29th 2007, 03:54 PM
If you want to know about revelation, this is the pastor that has studied it inside and out. Dr. John Hagee http://www.jhm.org/. He will explain about how we are saved by grace and how once we are in Heaven, our works are tried by fire. Yes your works are judged after you are in Heaven.

I read Dr Hagee's plan of salvation. Dr Hagee shows us the way of salvation, but he fails to tell us how the unconverted sinner is able to turn from his/her sin, repent and believe. I would think the whole purpose of the thread is to answer the question are we saved by faith alone? Dr Hagee quotes Ro 6:23 and Eph 2:8,9, and says this is the provision, God's gift, but then he says we must turn away from our sin, repent and believe the good news, but fails to tell us how this is possible for the one who is dead in their trespass and sin, and has no desire for God, and loves the sin they are in. If Dr Hagee has studied this issue inside and out I would think that he would understand the need to explain that we are not able to turn from our sin, repent and believe until we have been given saving faith to believe. But again Dr Hagee does not show us how this gift of saving faith comes from the Lord, and instead speaks as though the spiritually dead are able to muster up this work of faith that saves them. This is a real problem for those who teach free will.

Many Blessings,
RW

ProjectPeter
Oct 29th 2007, 04:06 PM
If you want to know about revelation, this is the pastor that has studied it inside and out. Dr. John Hagee http://www.jhm.org/. He will explain about how we are saved by grace and how once we are in Heaven, our works are tried by fire. Yes your works are judged after you are in Heaven.
Well since that is just a page to his main site with no link to a specific sermon... why don't you tell us the gist of what he says?

Rand47
Oct 29th 2007, 11:02 PM
"Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

The answer to your excellent question was only one verse away! And verses 8 and 9 should never be separated from verse 10!

Eph. 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


There is no conflict between James and Paul's teaching. We are saved by faith alone. But we are not saved "for nothing" -- we are saved for God's purpose, which is to manifest Jesus to the world -- and we must "do" something (works) as we live out that life of exhibition. The works don't save, they demonstrate a grateful, saved, heart. James is saying that if there is never any evidence of that grateful, saved, heart in our lives... we might want to examine our claim to having been saved by faith.

God bless...

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 11:04 PM
"Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

The answer to your excellent question was only one verse away! And verses 8 and 9 should never be separated from verse 10!

Eph. 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


There is no conflict between James and Paul's teaching. We are saved by faith alone. But we are not saved "for nothing" -- we are saved for God's purpose, which is to manifest Jesus to the world -- and we must "do" something (works) as we live out that life of exhibition. The works don't save, they demonstrate a grateful, saved, heart. James is saying that if there is never any evidence of that grateful, saved, heart in our lives... we might want to examine our claim to having been saved by faith.

God bless...

Great post! :pp:pp:pp

ProjectPeter
Oct 29th 2007, 11:16 PM
"Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

The answer to your excellent question was only one verse away! And verses 8 and 9 should never be separated from verse 10!

Eph. 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


There is no conflict between James and Paul's teaching. We are saved by faith alone. But we are not saved "for nothing" -- we are saved for God's purpose, which is to manifest Jesus to the world -- and we must "do" something (works) as we live out that life of exhibition. The works don't save, they demonstrate a grateful, saved, heart. James is saying that if there is never any evidence of that grateful, saved, heart in our lives... we might want to examine our claim to having been saved by faith.

God bless...


Great post! :pp:pp:pp
This is an example though of how we've gotten all hung up in religious speak! No where does that say "ALONE". Yet there you go adding that to what Paul said. Tell me this if it is by "faith alone"... can one be saved by faith alone without grace of God? Answer is of course not. So then we have faith and we have grace of God. My faith can't save me at all without the grace of God being offered me because I am figuring my faith would never be great enough for such a feat as that. But then when Paul penned those words... did he contradict himself? No. You are not saved by faith alone. Just like he said to the Corinth church. You can have faith that moves mountains. But without love... nothing. I can do good deeds till the cow jumps over the moon... but without love... nothing. I can have faith... but without God's grace... what is my faith going to do me? It isn't FAITH alone. Never did Paul say that nor did he intend it in that passage. And it matters not a lick that Luther coined the phrase and chose to add it in his Bible translation knowing it wasn't in the Greek. That is simply what Luther said... not Paul. ;)

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 11:37 PM
This is an example though of how we've gotten all hung up in religious speak! No where does that say "ALONE". Yet there you go adding that to what Paul said. Tell me this if it is by "faith alone"... can one be saved by faith alone without grace of God? Answer is of course not. So then we have faith and we have grace of God. My faith can't save me at all without the grace of God being offered me because I am figuring my faith would never be great enough for such a feat as that. But then when Paul penned those words... did he contradict himself? No. You are not saved by faith alone. Just like he said to the Corinth church. You can have faith that moves mountains. But without love... nothing. I can do good deeds till the cow jumps over the moon... but without love... nothing. I can have faith... but without God's grace... what is my faith going to do me? It isn't FAITH alone. Never did Paul say that nor did he intend it in that passage. And it matters not a lick that Luther coined the phrase and chose to add it in his Bible translation knowing it wasn't in the Greek. That is simply what Luther said... not Paul. ;)

Well, from God's perspective, we are indeed justified by His grace - that is the ground of our salvation - but how do we receive it? The means is by faith - and it is clear from every NT writer that this is indeed alone -
ie apart from works - because we do not contribute anything to our salvation but the sin which makes it necessary - anything else is another gospel of salvation by faith plus works! Saving faith produces love, good works etc and without these things - agreed - we are nothing and our faith is not real - but you have yet to say why you object to faith alone as the means by which we receive God's saving grace in Christ, which is implicit in everything Paul writes on the subject! The big question is: has Christ accomplished salvation for us that we receive with the empty hand of faith? Or has he simply made salvation possible and we "complete" it by our work of faith?

losthorizon
Oct 29th 2007, 11:55 PM
Well, from God's perspective, we are indeed justified by His grace - that is the ground of our salvation - but how do we receive it? The means is by faith - and it is clear from every NT writer that this is indeed alone -
ie apart from works - because we do not contribute anything to our salvation but the sin which makes it necessary - anything else is another gospel of salvation by faith plus works! Saving faith produces love, good works etc and without these things - agreed - we are nothing and our faith is not real - but you have yet to say why you object to faith alone as the means by which we receive God's saving grace in Christ, which is implicit in everything Paul writes on the subject! The big question is: has Christ accomplished salvation for us that we receive with the empty hand of faith? Or has he simply made salvation possible and we "complete" it by our work of faith?
It is the faith that obeys that saves - “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).

ProjectPeter
Oct 30th 2007, 12:20 AM
Well, from God's perspective, we are indeed justified by His grace - that is the ground of our salvation - but how do we receive it? The means is by faith - and it is clear from every NT writer that this is indeed alone -
ie apart from works - because we do not contribute anything to our salvation but the sin which makes it necessary - anything else is another gospel of salvation by faith plus works! Saving faith produces love, good works etc and without these things - agreed - we are nothing and our faith is not real - but you have yet to say why you object to faith alone as the means by which we receive God's saving grace in Christ, which is implicit in everything Paul writes on the subject! The big question is: has Christ accomplished salvation for us that we receive with the empty hand of faith? Or has he simply made salvation possible and we "complete" it by our work of faith?
We receive it with an enduring faith from the start of this race till the end of the race.

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

SemperReformanda
Oct 30th 2007, 12:36 AM
It is the faith that obeys that saves - “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).
You missed 9MarksFan's point. Faith, apart from any works, is the vehicle by which God bestows saving grace upon a person. We are not debating the nature of faith, which is what 99% of modern evangelicals will do these days when the "Faith Alone" debate comes up.

The word "Alone" means "apart from works of the law". It is pointless to say "I am justified by faith alone, but faith results in good works" when answering this question. Works are in no way tied up with justification.

Now, Luther and the Reformers in no way said that faith does not work. It is slanderous, in my opinion, to even suggest that they did. All they said was that these works of faith are not instrumental in justification, as the Papists were saying, rather they were the result of a faith that justifies.

SemperReformanda
Oct 30th 2007, 12:37 AM
We receive it with an enduring faith from the start of this race till the end of the race.

Romans 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Of course, PP! The faith which is saving faith will endure! ;)

ProjectPeter
Oct 30th 2007, 12:50 AM
You missed 9MarksFan's point. Faith, apart from any works, is the vehicle by which God bestows saving grace upon a person. We are not debating the nature of faith, which is what 99% of modern evangelicals will do these days when the "Faith Alone" debate comes up.

The word "Alone" means "apart from works of the law". It is pointless to say "I am justified by faith alone, but faith results in good works" when answering this question. Works are in no way tied up with justification.

Now, Luther and the Reformers in no way said that faith does not work. It is slanderous, in my opinion, to even suggest that they did. All they said was that these works of faith are not instrumental in justification, as the Papists were saying, rather they were the result of a faith that justifies.
Exactly... works of the Law. You spoke rightly. But then you know as do I that many don't count it works of the Law. Shoot... today, everything is labeled a work. Scripture study... prayer... even immorality. Luther wasn't about that and truth be told neither was Calvin. But it has been twisted and today "work" has become a Christian curse word.

But as I've said more than once... the word ALONE is not in the text. Luther added that and did so I suppose to make his point. But that isn't correct and it shouldn't have been put in there. Not even the context allowed for it.

As to them teaching "these works of faith are not instrumental in justification"... that is why Luther would have rather had James ommitted. James clearly contradicts that. I know the spin now days to try and work around it... but it don't spin well. ;)

Dantheman
Oct 30th 2007, 01:02 AM
Revelation 20:13,15 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I know that Martin Luther was suspicious of the Book of Revelation because it seems to indicated, at least on the surface, that you're judged by your works on whether you'll go to heaven. Also, he was skeptical of the book of James:

James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

But all this seems to go against what Paul taught:

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 3:20, 28 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."

Romans 4:2-5 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

So how does this all fit together. Are you justified by faith alone or are you judged if you're good enough to enter heaven?

Works are important too. Most importantly, baptism (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38) is one of the biggest works we can do to prove our devotion to God because that is what he tells us to do. Also, Paul mentions baptism himself, Ephesians 4:5 says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,". Therefore he recognized baptism which is a work. Also, is faith itself not a work? Everything we do for God is a work, so if works did not save us, then we wouldn't have to study God's Word (2 Timothy 2:15) because that's a work, and we wouldn't have to partake of the Lord's Supper (Luke 22:19, I Corinthians 11:24). In summary, all the things we are told to do are works, therefore we are not saved by faith alone, even Paul recognizes that.

I enjoy discussing this topic and if anyone has any questions to what I just said, I would feel happy to respond.

Thanks for Reading,
Dantheman

losthorizon
Oct 30th 2007, 01:11 AM
You missed 9MarksFan's point. Faith, apart from any works, is the vehicle by which God bestows saving grace upon a person. We are not debating the nature of faith, which is what 99% of modern evangelicals will do these days when the "Faith Alone" debate comes up...


You misunderstand my point - faith itself is a work – it is a “work of God”.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29).

NavyFirefighter
Oct 30th 2007, 06:53 AM
Well since that is just a page to his main site with no link to a specific sermon... why don't you tell us the gist of what he says?

Here you go.:D THese are from a different site, but it is Dr. Hagee
1 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070514.asx
2 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070515.asx
3 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070516.asx
4 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070517.asx
5 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070518.asx

Another set
1 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070521.asx
2 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070522.asx
3 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070523.asx
4 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070524.asx
5 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070525.asx

ProjectPeter
Oct 30th 2007, 11:30 AM
Here you go.:D THese are from a different site, but it is Dr. Hagee
1 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070514.asx
2 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070515.asx
3 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070516.asx
4 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070517.asx
5 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070518.asx

Another set
1 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070521.asx
2 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070522.asx
3 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070523.asx
4 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070524.asx
5 http://www.bvov.tv/asx/bvov/070525.asx
Okay... that is basically five hours of listening to Copeland and Hagee talk about Revelation. Again... just tell us a nutshell version of what he says so we don't have to listen to five hours of something just to try and hunt down this bit of information.

Rand47
Oct 30th 2007, 05:11 PM
Quote: "This is an example though of how we've gotten all hung up in religious speak! No where does that say "ALONE". Yet there you go adding that to what Paul said. Tell me this if it is by "faith alone"... can one be saved by faith alone without grace of God?" (sic)
__________________________________________________ _________

You're quite right, if you take my post in isolation from the original poster's final question to us here:

"Are you justified by faith alone or are you judged if you're good enough to enter heaven?" (sic)

But, if you look at my reply in light of this question, it is quite correct. The ALONE in my comment is in opposition to the OP's "good enough to enter heaven" component of his question. And, it is affirming his "faith alone" posit as opposed to "works" represented by his "good enough" posit.

I tend to answer in the terms that the questioner uses as he/she poses the question, in an attempt to answer "that specific question" in its own context. I see no problem with this in general, nor in this instance in particular.

Your hypothetical, Tell me this if it is by "faith alone"... can one be saved by faith alone without grace of God?" is an oxymoron (respectfully said). One could even make a cogent argument that in Eph. 2:8-10, the "and this" refers to either, or both grace and faith (itself) are gifts that we cannot boast about. The Greek in "this" most likely hearkens to earlier verses in Eph. speaking to the whole concept of salvation. So, to speak of faith separate from grace is meaningless, and certainly not what the original poster was positing as part of his question.

I'd put it this way, it is faith IN God's grace, (His ability and willingness to save us) that "is the thing." So, it is not "our faith" that saves us, it is our faith in God's grace (His promise and ability), that saves us. It is this (God's action of grace, received through empty hands of faith) "ALONE" that saves us, then, and not some works that we do.

Now, we could launch into a discussion of the role of human volition in this issue, but again, that doesn't address the OP's question.

I cannot escape the conviction that if we Christians were there with Jesus at night, around a fire, splitting these theological hairs about "how salvation works," he'd not have much positive to say to us about our efforts. I suspect he might remind us of little children and their open acceptance of the "truth on the face of it," as a characteristic that God loves in His children.

Blessings...

calirighty
Nov 6th 2007, 08:51 PM
By works a man is justified (saved) and NOT by faith only

Even initially, coming to Jesus requires works: believing, repentance baptism...

Very good post. I agree. Although, I have been saved by my repentance, and baptism for the forgiveness of sins, I know that God does not want me to stop there. As James said, "faith without deeds is useless" and that "even the demons believe". What separates us from them is what we DO with our faith.

Toolman
Nov 6th 2007, 09:18 PM
What the reformers believed is that salvation is by Christ alone. "Faith alone" was simply a way of expressing how the believer is justified before God. The reformers did not limit salvation to justification alone but realized that salvation, biblically, is a process that the believer is taken through by the person of Jesus Christ and the security of the believer rested in the person of Christ and HIS ability to save that which He had determined and willed to save.

Salvation therefore was biblically viewed as Justification, Sanctification and Glorification. Each of these "tenses" would be experienced by the believer because God willed it to be so and was the Sovereign over salvation and creation, therefore no one was able to thwart His plan.

The Reformers viewed salvation in the following tenses:

Salvation is made up of 3 distinct, yet inseparable events:

Justification: - We are delivered from the Penalty of sin. The act of God forgiving ALL our sin and lawless deeds and declaring us righteous. This is what puts us in a right standing with God, to be righteous. God declares us just as pure, holy and righteous as Jesus Christ himself because of the sacrifice of Christ. This is also called "imputed righteousness". God gives Christ's righteousness to us, we do not earn it. This act happens at the very moment a person places faith in Christ(trust). All that is required to justify a person before God is to trust in the person and work of Christ alone.
Also called "positional sanctification".

Sanctification: - We are being delivered from the Power of sin. This is the process, in this life, of being conformed to the image of Christ. We come to realize more and more just how sinful and in need of a savior we are. God begins to work in our will to show us our great need for Him and to change our will to follow and obey Him. This is a daily process for the duration of earthly life.
Also called "progressive sanctification".

Glorification: - We will be delivered from the Presence of sin.This is the final part of salvation when God will complete redemption of His believers and actually remove sin and satan, establish His everlasting kingdom and resurrect the saints to their new bodies.
Also called "completed sanctification".

So, regarding justification the reformers most assuredly believed that justification was accomplished by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and simply when one trusted in that work and that person alone, apart from ANY act they might do because of that trust.

What justified them before God was Christ and His work alone and simply faith alone in Him and not anything that they did in response to that work. It was Christ alone that justified the believer apart from any work.

Justification by faith in Christ alone is demonstrated in Romans 4.

Romans 4
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”[d]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[e] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

BadDog
Nov 7th 2007, 01:18 PM
BibleGuy (Who's 51 ?)

James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

"Alone" is an adverb and does not modify "faith." The following is what this verse is saying:

James 2:24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not justified only by faith."

We are justified before people by what we do - sure. They cannot see our heart. But we are justified ("declared to be righteous" based on Christ's death) before God by faith alone - He can see our heart. And the justification before people cannot refer to gaining eternal life, of course, since it is not dependent upon them, but God alone.

Now, if you want to maintain, which is possible grammatically, that this is referring to justification before God by faith and justification before God by works - and that both determine our salvation from hell... then you'll have to demonstrate how this does not contradict Paul in Romans 3, 4 and Galatians 3. (See Toolman's excellent comments above.) Not a problem for me. :P

Take care,

BD

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 01:35 PM
Wow. Lot's of interesting post. Please allow me to have a drive by...

Jesus often said "your faith has made you whole". Well, James is saying too that "faith will make you work".

Live faith has works. Dead faith doesn't. If I was preaching to a bunch of people with dead faith, I would preach from James. If I was preaching to people who thought they could earn God's favor through work, absent faith, I would preach Galatians. It seems to me, the audience for each book is different but both are teaching the same thing and both draw their conclusions from Abraham's example. One showed the justification before the work and the other showed the justification after the work. (The work being the offering of Isaac.)

jiggyfly
Nov 7th 2007, 01:47 PM
What works is James referring to exactly when he says "faith without works is dead"? Are they my works or God's works?

Galatians 5:19-26
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

My works are quite different than God's works so I believe that it is very evident who's works James is referring to.

Pleroo
Nov 13th 2007, 11:10 PM
What works is James referring to exactly when he says "faith without works is dead"? Are they my works or God's works?

Galatians 5:19-26
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

My works are quite different than God's works so I believe that it is very evident who's works James is referring to.

Exactly. :)

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.