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Redeemed by Grace
Oct 29th 2007, 12:10 PM
Counterfeit Christian?

Is there such a thing as a counterfeit Christian? You know, folks who look like a Christian, act like a Christian, and talk like a Christian, but from the heart, are not a Christian?


I say that the bible is full of references that point to testing yourself that you might be one of these folk, and also calls out examples to what these folks look like in others….

So what do you say:

- Do you say that anyone who names the name of Jesus somewhere in their dogma is saved?

- Or do you say that there are counterfeit Christians out there and that there are definitive earmarks that must go along with the talk and walk that make one genuinely in Christ and Christ in them?

Sold Out
Oct 29th 2007, 01:09 PM
Counterfeit Christian?

Is there such a thing as a counterfeit Christian? You know, folks who look like a Christian, act like a Christian, and talk like a Christian, but from the heart, are not a Christian?


I say that the bible is full of references that point to testing yourself that you might be one of these folk, and also calls out examples to what these folks look like in others….

So what do you say:

- Do you say that anyone who names the name of Jesus somewhere in their dogma is saved?

- Or do you say that there are counterfeit Christians out there and that there are definitive earmarks that must go along with the talk and walk that make one genuinely in Christ and Christ in them?


"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23

No one can know with 100% certainty that anyone is saved. That is only for God to know, since He alone knows the heart. (Luke 16:15)

Jesus gave us a parable about false converts that would sprout up in the church:

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy (Satan) came and sowed tares (false converts) among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:24-30

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 01:24 PM
Excellent thread, RbG - there are so many parables that deal with false converts - the sheep and the goats, the wise and foolish builders - and virgins - and those on the broad and the narrow roads. No doubt others too.

Indeed so often when Jesus addressed people, it was religious people who thought they were on the right road (the "suffer me first" brigade; as someone said decades ago - "Yes, 'me first' was what mattered most to them") but Jesus pointed them to another road - but so often we don't hear of them going on it.

What I would like to raise here is that, according to Jesus' own words, there will be MORE on the broad road (which is a RELIGIOUS road in the context) - "many" - than on the NARROW road - "few".

So I have a challenge for the NOSASers out there: Jesus teaches that there will be false converts in their multitudes that He never knew and who will be going to Hell - why do you insist on saying that they were genuinely saved and lost their salvation? Jesus KNEW there would be those who would only "believe for a while" who would not "remain in [Him]" - but nowhere does He say that they were ever truly saved! Continuing to believe and continuing to remain in Him are ultimately the marks of being truly saved - if they are not there, we can have no assurance at all, regardless of our verbal profession however many years ago - where are we NOW?!?!?!? That's what matters!

Sold Out
Oct 29th 2007, 01:34 PM
So I have a challenge for the NOSASers out there: Jesus teaches that there will be false converts in their multitudes that He never knew and who will be going to Hell - why do you insist on saying that they were genuinely saved and lost their salvation? Jesus KNEW there would be those who would only "believe for a while" who would not "remain in [Him]" - but nowhere does He say that they were ever truly saved! Continuing to believe and continuing to remain in Him are ultimately the marks of being truly saved - if they are not there, we can have no assurance at all, regardless of our verbal profession however many years ago - where are we NOW?!?!?!? That's what matters!

And to add to this...Jesus said He NEVER knew them....so they were never saved to begin with.

RogerW
Oct 29th 2007, 02:00 PM
The argument for losing one's salvation is derived from sinning. That is to say, if we fall into temptation and commit sin, and perhaps then abandon the covenant body, well very obviously (it is assumed) we have lost our salvation. Does that not make our sinning the reason we lose our salvation? Which one of my sins is so great that the Lord cannot restore me, IF I were truly in Him to begin with? We cannot sin away our salvation, that is an impossiblity.

The truth is that when we turn to sin, and are not convicted by the sin we commit, but instead relish it, and remain in it without conscience conviction, and turning away from sin, then it is evidence that we do not possess the Holy Spirit to convict us of the sin that True Christians will grieve over, i.e. we were never saved in the first place, we are counterfeit Christians, or Christians partaking in the body of Christ outwardly. These have all the earmarks of faith, and they have received the covenant sign of water baptism making them to be in Christ externally, but they do not possess enduring, life saving faith.

Sin is NOT something that one who is in Christ, and Christ in them will continue in. Our sins will cause us great heartache and true sorrow and repentance. Consider David. David sinned greatly, and he and his whole family suffer the consquences of his sin, but he did not lose his salvation, rather he is called the beloved of God. David's response after conviction of his sinfulness is a broken and contrite heart that acknowledges 'against God alone have I committed this awful sin.' That is what conviction of sin will drive every true child of God to.

So tell me please, which of my many sins shall I fear? Which one will cause me to lose eternal life? How can this life I've been given be eternal if I can sin it away?

Great thread Rbg, thanks for posting this important question.

Many Blessings,
RW

AlainaJ
Oct 29th 2007, 02:14 PM
Counterfeit Christian?

Is there such a thing as a counterfeit Christian? You know, folks who look like a Christian, act like a Christian, and talk like a Christian, but from the heart, are not a Christian?


I say that the bible is full of references that point to testing yourself that you might be one of these folk, and also calls out examples to what these folks look like in others….

So what do you say:

- Do you say that anyone who names the name of Jesus somewhere in their dogma is saved?

- Or do you say that there are counterfeit Christians out there and that there are definitive earmarks that must go along with the talk and walk that make one genuinely in Christ and Christ in them?


Sadly many people profess they are Christians, but are not born again. They might be playing religion, but have not surrendered their heart to Jesus.

Matt.25 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4494852)

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:These were false Christians- many even worked miracles or did great works, in Jesus name........but were cast out........

Here is another good example:
Matt.13

[1] The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
[2] And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[4] And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[5] Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[6] And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
[7] And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
[8] But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

[9] Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

.[18] Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

It seems to me that we have believers and false beleivers together until the harvest.:hmm:

[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


[47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[48] Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
[49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



Alaina:)

I<3Jesus
Oct 29th 2007, 02:38 PM
To be honest, I am so wrapped up in trying to learn how I need to act, think and feel to be a true Christian to concern myself with what lies in the hearts of others. I might not be working at the moment, but being a Christian has become my new full time job. I have always believed in God and considered myself a Christian, but I do not know much about the Bible (even though I have spent over half of my life in church). I have been trying to rectify that with Bible study, church groups and attending a Bible teaching church. I figure if I become a strong enough Christian I can effect those around me through my deeds as well as my words. The more time I spend thinking about "false Christians" and the other evil in the world the more I feel stifled and choked by the worldly culture and I become susceptible to my own flesh (worry, fret, anger, etc). I hate to say it, but there is nothing you can do to change anyone else. They have to truly want to change themselves. You can be a light in their life and pray for someone to come across their path that can get through to them, but fixating on whether or not another person is really a Christian only occupies your time and takes you away from what you really should be doing, edifying yourself and strengthening your relationship with the Lord.

DSK
Oct 29th 2007, 04:06 PM
We cannot sin away our salvation, that is an impossiblity.

If I didn't know better, I would say such a quote could only come from the lips of someone the likes of Charles Stanley.

Compare RogerW's quote with the following quote from Charles Stanley:

"You can sin like the devil down here and... you won't lose your salvation." (Charles Stanley) in his audio tape #3, MH190

Now compare what RogerW and Charles Stanley have said with what Scripture says.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

In the above verse the term "his brother" is referring to a brother in Christ

.

CanuckMedic
Oct 29th 2007, 04:46 PM
To be honest, I am so wrapped up in trying to learn how I need to act, think and feel to be a true Christian to concern myself with what lies in the hearts of others.

One thing I have learned recently is it's a trap to focus on ourselves in any way. This is a trick of the devil, to wallow and moan about our sin, our failures, is idolatry. It will lead to failure, and a cycle of sin. The only way to defeat sin is to focus on Christ. His success, His promise, His defeat of death and hell, His defeat of Satan himself. Anytime we look at ourselves we fail. Anytime we look at Christ's success we too will succeed.

RogerW
Oct 29th 2007, 04:55 PM
If I didn't know better, I would say such a quote could only come from the lips of someone the likes of Charles Stanley.

Compare RogerW's quote with the following quote from Charles Stanley:

"You can sin like the devil down here and... you won't lose your salvation." (Charles Stanley) in his audio tape #3, MH190

Now compare what RogerW and Charles Stanley have said with what Scripture says.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

In the above verse the term "his brother" is referring to a brother in Christ

.

Ah yes DSK, but what else did I say? Now you are taking my comments out of context as I have seen you do also to others.

What is the sin unto death John is speaking of? What sin can I commit that will be unto death, when I am abiding in Christ, and Christ is abiding in me? John elaborates further for us, less we fear it possible to sin a sin leading unto death for the one born of God.

John says all unrighteousness is sin, but apparently there is only one specific sin that is unto death. Perhaps you will enlighten us to what that specific sin is? And perhaps you can also show us who will and who will not commit that sin unto death?

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

John's next statement is interesting because it tells us that whosoever is born of God sinneth not because he is begotten (born) of God, and keeps himself from sin, and not even that wicked (the devil) can make him fall.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Finally John gives us blessed assurance that we need not worry about committing a sin unto death because we know that we are of God, and we know that the Son of God has given us understanding, and eternal life.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I am not defending Charles Stanley. I stopped listening to him years ago because I cannot condone his position on free will. But that does not mean I cannot hate it when even his commentaries are used out of context to make a point. But of a truth your belief of free will or this doctrine you teach that God needs our help if we will be saved aligns very closely with many of the doctrines of Charles Stanley.

Many Blessings,
RW

Sold Out
Oct 29th 2007, 05:07 PM
To be honest, I am so wrapped up in trying to learn how I need to act, think and feel to be a true Christian to concern myself with what lies in the hearts of others. I might not be working at the moment, but being a Christian has become my new full time job. I have always believed in God and considered myself a Christian, but I do not know much about the Bible (even though I have spent over half of my life in church). I have been trying to rectify that with Bible study, church groups and attending a Bible teaching church. I figure if I become a strong enough Christian I can effect those around me through my deeds as well as my words. The more time I spend thinking about "false Christians" and the other evil in the world the more I feel stifled and choked by the worldly culture and I become susceptible to my own flesh (worry, fret, anger, etc). I hate to say it, but there is nothing you can do to change anyone else. They have to truly want to change themselves. You can be a light in their life and pray for someone to come across their path that can get through to them, but fixating on whether or not another person is really a Christian only occupies your time and takes you away from what you really should be doing, edifying yourself and strengthening your relationship with the Lord.

Amen to this....I know I feel choked in this world, not only by those who are probably false converts, but straight-out unbelievers!!

DSK
Oct 29th 2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by RogerW
We cannot sin away our salvation, that is an impossiblity.

Compare that with this Scripture:
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.



What is the sin unto death John is speaking of?

There is sin that brings death
"John was probably not speaking of one certain sin, but the continuation of some sin. The verb translated "sin" in verse 16 is in the present tense, and means "continually sinning" (see Heb. 10:26). The sin unto death is therefore not a single, isolated act, but one that has been repeated over and over again by the disobedient child of God." (In The Family - Studies in First John - by Paul R. Van Gorder)

Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind. So what is the sin leading to spiritual death? This has been debated for centuries. From our studies in the book of Hebrews, we know that the only unpardonable sin a Christian can commit is one of willfully and deliberately turning his back on Jesus after having reached a certain level of spiritual maturity. To pray for a person who has commited that sin is a waste of time, because "it is impossible to renew [him] again to repentance" (Heb 6:6). I conclude that the sin leading to death is apostasy by someone who has reached the spiritual level described in Hebrews 6:4-6. - (Your Best Year Yet! David S Kirkwood P. 636)

.

Frances
Oct 29th 2007, 05:41 PM
Is there such a thing as a counterfeit Christian? You know, folks who look like a Christian, act like a Christian, and talk like a Christian, but from the heart, are not a Christian?

I have a nasty feeling I may have heard one preaching last Sunday!! He was condemning "Fundamental Christians who condemn Ho*m*se*uals" this was in the UK and in his wide sweeping sermon he condemned "the Bible Belt in USA" among others, all the while talking of "Grace". . . .

(actually in his context, the H's he was referrring to was those who are ordained, and those who appoint them to Ministry in the Church . . . . )

I<3Jesus
Oct 29th 2007, 05:46 PM
One thing I have learned recently is it's a trap to focus on ourselves in any way. This is a trick of the devil, to wallow and moan about our sin, our failures, is idolatry. It will lead to failure, and a cycle of sin. The only way to defeat sin is to focus on Christ. His success, His promise, His defeat of death and hell, His defeat of Satan himself. Anytime we look at ourselves we fail. Anytime we look at Christ's success we too will succeed.

I think you misunderstood me, I am just focusing on learning more about the Bible and how to walk the path. I am not wallowing in anything.

RogerW
Oct 29th 2007, 07:02 PM
Compare that with this Scripture:
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

There is sin that brings death
"John was probably not speaking of one certain sin, but the continuation of some sin. The verb translated "sin" in verse 16 is in the present tense, and means "continually sinning" (see Heb. 10:26). The sin unto death is therefore not a single, isolated act, but one that has been repeated over and over again by the disobedient child of God." (In The Family - Studies in First John - by Paul R. Van Gorder)

Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind. So what is the sin leading to spiritual death? This has been debated for centuries. From our studies in the book of Hebrews, we know that the only unpardonable sin a Christian can commit is one of willfully and deliberately turning his back on Jesus after having reached a certain level of spiritual maturity. To pray for a person who has commited that sin is a waste of time, because "it is impossible to renew [him] again to repentance" (Heb 6:6). I conclude that the sin leading to death is apostasy by someone who has reached the spiritual level described in Hebrews 6:4-6. - (Your Best Year Yet! David S Kirkwood P. 636)

.

Sorry DSK, irregardless of these commentaries the context of both Heb 10:26 and Heb 6:4-6 leaves no doubt that these passages are not speaking of Christians who lose their salvation by sinning the sin unto death. These passages in Hebrews are not depicting the unforgivable sin, which btw Christians do NOT, in fact cannot commit, just as 1Jo 5 tells us.

Where in this verse (Heb 10:26) do we find Christians committing the sin unto death? The passage does not say you will lose your salvation, it says that when you willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins. How does that equate to believers losing their salvation? Do only Christians receive the knowledge of the truth? Did not the Jews have knowledge of the truth, and were they saved?

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

The very next verse says those in wilful sin after receiving knowledge of the truth should look for judgment and fiery indignation, which devours ADVERSARIES! Where in all of Scripture do we find Christians called adversaries?

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Who are these adversaries? Those who despised Moses' law. Wasn't it also the Jews who have trodden under foot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified (set apart unto God), and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? This passage depicts those who have knowledge of the truth, but they are not saved.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Blessings,
RW

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 07:26 PM
Good to hear from you again, RogerW!

But surely Hebrews 10 refers to apostates in general, not just Jews?

And just for the record - while apostates exist, they were never saved in the first place - they looked like Christians, but they were the plants that died, the tares, the goats, the foolish builders and virgins - in short, all those who walk the broad road to destruction........

DSK
Oct 29th 2007, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by RogerW
We cannot sin away our salvation, that is an impossiblity.

That comment is the typical antinomianist message which gives license to sin.


Originally Posted by RogerW
Now you are taking my comments out of context

It's not possible to take a comment like that out of context. That's an impossibility

Paul gave an entirely different message

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

So did the writter to the Hebrews, when he wrote this to believers in Christ

Heb 10:26 For if we (believers) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,


Sorry DSK, irregardless of these commentaries the context of both Heb 10:26 and Heb 6:4-6 leaves no doubt that these passages are not speaking of Christians who lose their salvation by sinning the sin unto death. These passages in Hebrews are not depicting the unforgivable sin, which btw Christians do NOT, in fact cannot commit, just as 1Jo 5 tells us.

Believe what you want. Nevertheless whatever the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16 is, it is the Christian brother who is being mentioned who can commit the sin unto death. And if sinning unto death (meaning spiritual death) doesn't mean losing ones salvation, then no evidence will convince you.

.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2007, 11:21 PM
That comment is the typical antinomianist message which gives license to sin.

Steady on! Neither RogerW, nor RbG nor any of us on this forum who are truly Reformed are antinomian - please do not label us as such! I agree wholeheartedly with RogerW on this BUT I fell the "other side of the coin" needs to be emphasised more ie you cannot sin with impunity - and those who live like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God - so if we continue to sin wilfully as a habit, without any concern, we show we are not saved. So a Christian will not live in a persistent state of sin.


Nevertheless whatever the sin unto death in 1 John 5:16 is, it is the Christian brother who is being mentioned who can commit the sin unto death.

But it doesn't say that! It specifically assumes that the brother may well commit a sin that is "unto death" - he then mentions in apparent abstract terms that there is a sin unto death and that he does not recommend that people should waste their time praying about it - but he doesn't say who will commit it!


And if sinning unto death (meaning spiritual death)

But it doesn't necessarily mean that! The Corinthians sinned in a way that led to their physical deaths - "that is why some of you are sick and some have fallen asleep" - so the same could be in view here.

doesn't mean losing ones salvation, then no evidence will convince you..[/quote]

You are guilty of eisegesis here - you are making two dogmatic assumptions here that the text just does not support - to "prove" your point. There is a sin unto death - and it is possibly the same as the unpardonable sin - but if so, it's clear from lots of other Scriptures that a true Christian cannot commit it! But there will be multitudes of false professors who will.........

RogerW
Oct 30th 2007, 01:13 AM
Good to hear from you again, RogerW!

But surely Hebrews 10 refers to apostates in general, not just Jews?

And just for the record - while apostates exist, they were never saved in the first place - they looked like Christians, but they were the plants that died, the tares, the goats, the foolish builders and virgins - in short, all those who walk the broad road to destruction........

Greetings Nigel,

Good to hear from you again as well. I could not agree with you more! Great insight, thank you.

Many Blessings,
RW

Wintermute
Oct 30th 2007, 01:54 AM
oops wrong thread

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 12:03 PM
oops wrong thread



Ahhh... in all my years posting here, finally, an honest reply..... :rofl::hug::rofl:

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 12:37 PM
Steady on! Neither RogerW, nor RbG nor any of us on this forum who are truly Reformed are antinomian - please do not label us as such! I agree wholeheartedly with RogerW on this BUT I fell the "other side of the coin" needs to be emphasised more ie you cannot sin with impunity - and those who live like that will NOT inherit the kingdom of God - so if we continue to sin wilfully as a habit, without any concern, we show we are not saved. So a Christian will not live in a persistent state of sin.



But it doesn't say that! It specifically assumes that the brother may well commit a sin that is "unto death" - he then mentions in apparent abstract terms that there is a sin unto death and that he does not recommend that people should waste their time praying about it - but he doesn't say who will commit it!



But it doesn't necessarily mean that! The Corinthians sinned in a way that led to their physical deaths - "that is why some of you are sick and some have fallen asleep" - so the same could be in view here.


You are guilty of eisegesis here - you are making two dogmatic assumptions here that the text just does not support - to "prove" your point. There is a sin unto death - and it is possibly the same as the unpardonable sin - but if so, it's clear from lots of other Scriptures that a true Christian cannot commit it! But there will be multitudes of false professors who will.........

Anyone who makes the statement that "you can't sin away salvation" is certainly teaching antinomianism. Something Paul never taught. Quite different was the message Paul and other writters of the Epistles gave as shown from the Scriptures below.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we (believers) sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

Heb 10:26 For if we (believers) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

Because your reply begins with the false premise, that OSAS is Scriptural, you end up with an incorrect interpretation of Scripture. OSAS wasn't taught in the church until Augustine in the 5th century.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

"Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind." - David S Kirkwood

"The sin unto death is therefore not a single, isolated act, but one that has been repeated over and over again by the disobedient child of God." (In The Family - Studies in First John - by Paul R. Van Gorder)

.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 12:53 PM
Anyone who makes the statement that "you can't sin away salvation" is certainly teaching antinomianism. Something Paul never taught. Quite different was the message Paul and other writters of the Epistles gave as shown from the Scriptures below.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we (believers) sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.

Heb 10:26 For if we (believers) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

Because your reply begins with the false premise, that OSAS is Scriptural, you end up with an incorrect interpretation of Scripture. OSAS wasn't taught in the church until Augustine in the 5th century.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

"Some think John was refering to a sin "leading to physical death," but the immediate and larger context of the entire letter seems to indicate that it was spiritual death that he had in mind." - David S Kirkwood

"The sin unto death is therefore not a single, isolated act, but one that has been repeated over and over again by the disobedient child of God." (In The Family - Studies in First John - by Paul R. Van Gorder)

.


So DSK, what I'm reading from you and your posts is that you are claiming that anyone who believes that God is provident and sovereign in their salvation, and who trusts in Christ and Christ alone to keep them saved, and who continually seeks, examines, repents of sin with a thankful heart in Christ's forgiveness -- as His Spirit within them guides them, and who's faith is as equal a gift as is salvation.... is a counterfeit Christian?


This is what I see your argument to be, to judge OSAS as being a false christian doctrine, one that is wrong and foolish to hold...am I right or wrong in interpreting your words?

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 02:53 PM
So DSK, what I'm reading from you and your posts is that you are claiming that anyone who believes that God is provident and sovereign in their salvation, and who trusts in Christ and Christ alone to keep them saved, and who continually seeks, examines, repents of sin with a thankful heart in Christ's forgiveness -- as His Spirit within them guides them, and who's faith is as equal a gift as is salvation.... is a counterfeit Christian?


This is what I see your argument to be, to judge OSAS as being a false christian doctrine, one that is wrong and foolish to hold...am I right or wrong in interpreting your words?

What you should be getting from my replies to you is that the term "counterfeit Christian" is an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms. Either a person is a Christian or he isn't. There is no sort of in between Christian which you label "counterfeit Christian"

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 02:59 PM
//
Because your reply begins with the false premise, that OSAS is Scriptural, you end up with an incorrect interpretation of Scripture. OSAS wasn't taught in the church until Augustine in the 5th century.
//




//
This is what I see your argument to be, to judge OSAS as being a false christian doctrine, one that is wrong and foolish to hold...am I right or wrong in interpreting your words?


What you should be getting from my replies to you is that the term "counterfeit Christian" is an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms. Either a person is a Christian or he isn't. There is no sort of in between Christian which you label "counterfeit Christian"


Alright then, rewording to ask the question by your definition, are you saying that those who hold the OSAS position are Christians or are not Christians?

RogerW
Oct 30th 2007, 03:05 PM
What you should be getting from my replies to you is that the term "counterfeit Christian" is an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms. Either a person is a Christian or he isn't. There is no sort of in between Christian which you label "counterfeit Christian"

But what you are missing is the definition of "counterfeit". When you understand what counterfeit means you will realize we are saying they are no Christian at all.

from Webster's New World Dictionary

Counterfeit: made in imitation of something genuine so as to deceive or defraud; forged [counterfeit money]

Many Blessings,
RW

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 03:39 PM
Alright then, rewording to ask the question by your definition, are you saying that those who hold the OSAS position are Christians or are not Christians?

I personally believe a person can believe in OSAS and still be a genuine Christian. I know I myself once believed in OSAS in the early years of my Christian walk. There are genuine Christian's on both sides of the OSAS debate.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 03:46 PM
I personally believe a person can believe in OSAS and still be a genuine Christian. I know I myself once believed in OSAS in the early years of my Christian walk. There are genuine Christian's on both sides of the OSAS debate.


Good to hear... but now I need to call you on your words.... you stated and I quote:

<quote> "There are genuine Christian's on both sides of the OSAS debate." - DSK from Post #27 <end quote>

:hmm: So if something is not genuine, then they must be.... {fill in the blank}???? ;)

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 03:46 PM
But what you are missing is the definition of "counterfeit". When you understand what counterfeit means you will realize we are saying they are no Christian at all.

from Webster's New World Dictionary

Counterfeit: made in imitation of something genuine so as to deceive or defraud; forged [counterfeit money]

Many Blessings,
RW

I know what the term "counterfeit" means by definition. However when you add the word "Christian" to counterfeit" to make the compound phrase "Counterfeit Christian" then you have created an oxymoron. Is fools gold genuine gold? Of course it isn't. Only genuine gold is gold. There is no imitation gold. It's either gold or it isn't. Likewise a Christian is a Christian or he isn't. You are attempting to create a third category of Christian, which you call "counterfeit Christian." There are Christian's and there are non-Christian's, but there are no "counterfeit Christian's"

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 03:52 PM
Good to hear... but now I need to call you on your words.... you stated and I quote:

<quote> "There are genuine Christian's on both sides of the OSAS debate." - DSK from Post #27 <end quote>

:hmm: So if something is not genuine, then they must be.... {fill in the blank}???? ;)

In order to avoid oxymorons, and snce we are taliking about Christian's your question should rather be:

What do we call a person who isn't a Christian? To which the proper answer would be - A non-Christian

Thats better than using contradictory oxymorons.

.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 03:59 PM
I know what the term "counterfeit" means by definition. However when you add the word "Christian" to counterfeit" to make the compound phrase "Counterfeit Christian" then you have created an oxymoron. Is fools gold genuine gold? Of course it isn't. Only genuine gold is gold. There is no imitation gold. It's either gold or it isn't. Likewise a Christian is a Christian or he isn't. You are attempting to create a third category of Christian, which you call "counterfeit Christian." There are Christian's and there are non-Christian's, but there are no "counterfeit Christian's"

:giveup:

Personally I see you stuck in your position and you are defending your honor in saying fools gold, counterfiet Christians, good politicians, etc, etc, etc are oxymorons -- and even by your writings you yourself have stated and qualified the statement of genuine Christians?

Thus by your own definition that all Christians are genuine or they are not - so that means that those who hold to the OSAS camp and those who hold to the NOSAS camp are all -- each and every one -- are all genuine Christians then....


So thus being so, then let's declare the [N]OSAS battle over, both sides win and let's move on and glorify God with our words and lives and edify each other and witness this marvelless gift of God to a lost and dying world. :hug:

DSK
Oct 30th 2007, 04:08 PM
Personally I see you stuck in your position and you are defending your honor in saying fools gold, counterfiet Christians, good politicians, etc, etc, etc are oxymorons -- and even by your writings you yourself have stated and qualified the statement of genuine Christians?

Thus by your own definition that all Christians are genuine or they are not - so that means that those who hold to the OSAS camp and those who hold to the NOSAS camp are all -- each and every one -- are all genuine Christians then....


So thus being so, then let's declare the [N]OSAS battle over, both sides win and let's move on and glorify God with our words and lives and edify each other and witness this marvelless gift of God to a lost and dying world. :hug:

I see you as denying the existence of oxymorons. By denying any oxymoron, you want to create a third class of Christian which lies somewhere in between a Christian and a non-Christian which you want to label "counterfeit Christian"
.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 04:17 PM
I see you as denying the existence of oxymorons. By denying any oxymoron, you want to create a third class of Christian which lies somewhere in between a Christian and a non-Christian which you want to label "counterfeit Christian"
.


I see that we are going nowhere fast - [opps an oxymoron - scratch this for I've been told I deny the existance of oxymorons].

I'm done trying... so whatever you want is whatever you will get.

Have a great day

ikester7579
Oct 30th 2007, 05:02 PM
Counterfeit Christian?

Is there such a thing as a counterfeit Christian? You know, folks who look like a Christian, act like a Christian, and talk like a Christian, but from the heart, are not a Christian?


I say that the bible is full of references that point to testing yourself that you might be one of these folk, and also calls out examples to what these folks look like in others….

So what do you say:

- Do you say that anyone who names the name of Jesus somewhere in their dogma is saved?

- Or do you say that there are counterfeit Christians out there and that there are definitive earmarks that must go along with the talk and walk that make one genuinely in Christ and Christ in them?

I do know there are some who sign up at Christian forums like this one and choose a Christian world view when they are not. And then pretend to see how much they can get away with.

I don't know if that kind of counterfeiting is what you are speaking of though.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 05:47 PM
I do know there are some who sign up at Christian forums like this one and choose a Christian world view when they are not. And then pretend to see how much they can get away with.

I don't know if that kind of counterfeiting is what you are speaking of though.

Hi Ike!

In a nutshell, the post asks the question 'Is everyone and everyone who names the name of Jesus' a Christian?

Another way to look at this is would be to ask, is self-declaration that one is a Christian all one needs to make oneself a Christian?

Or another way to ask the question is to ask... are there look-alike Christians, those who dress and talk the part, but deep down they are not...?

Or another way is to say are there 'Genuine Christians' which DSK supplied.

And DSK also wants to say that there is no such thing as a look-a-like Christians and compares this to fools gold, but scripture is full of observations and warning to make sure that you are in the faith. The assumption is that one states they are a christian or that this is real gold and who is the wiser?

So the post asks, are there counterfiet Christians and it pushes the reply to self-examination along with examining the doctrine of others, plain and simple

ikester7579
Oct 30th 2007, 06:18 PM
Hi Ike!

In a nutshell, the post asks the question 'Is everyone and everyone who names the name of Jesus' a Christian?

Another way to look at this is would be to ask, is self-declaration that one is a Christian all one needs to make oneself a Christian?

Or another way to ask the question is to ask... are there look-alike Christians, those who dress and talk the part, but deep down they are not...?

Or another way is to say are there 'Genuine Christians' which DSK supplied.

And DSK also wants to say that there is no such thing as a look-a-like Christians and compares this to fools gold, but scripture is full of observations and warning to make sure that you are in the faith. The assumption is that one states they are a christian or that this is real gold and who is the wiser?

So the post asks, are there counterfiet Christians and it pushes the reply to self-examination along with examining the doctrine of others, plain and simple

How about conterfeits who put up the Christian name when they do a deal with you, and then stiff you? I have learned that when someone uses that they are Christian as a reason to trust them in a deal, it is best not to. I have been ripped off just about everytime.

I know one thing, people who do this really give Christians a bad name. I don't feel the need to say I'm a Christian when I do a deal with someone. They either trust me or they don't.

Redeemed by Grace
Oct 30th 2007, 06:29 PM
How about conterfeits who put up the Christian name when they do a deal with you, and then stiff you? I have learned that when someone uses that they are Christian as a reason to trust them in a deal, it is best not to. I have been ripped off just about everytime.

I know one thing, people who do this really give Christians a bad name. I don't feel the need to say I'm a Christian when I do a deal with someone. They either trust me or they don't.


Good observation and one that I wasn't thinking about, but to the OP, I'd say it fits... :)

xSTEADFASTx
Oct 30th 2007, 09:37 PM
i think it'd be by rotten fruit ;)

Slug1
Oct 30th 2007, 09:54 PM
So what do you say:

- Do you say that anyone who names the name of Jesus somewhere in their dogma is saved?

- Or do you say that there are counterfeit Christians out there and that there are definitive earmarks that must go along with the talk and walk that make one genuinely in Christ and Christ in them?
I haven't read through all the posts but for me it boils down to this statement, that I've said before...

Believing in Jesus and having a relationship with Jesus are entirely two separate things.

Believing in Jesus is everything ya mentioned but having a relationship is the "Walk the Walk" part that IMO, counterfeit Christians lack.