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View Full Version : What if a Christian wants a pre-nup contract signed before marraige?



Amazedgrace21
Oct 31st 2007, 05:15 AM
Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..:rolleyes:

I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spouse.

I am very interested in what responses are offered and how to council my friend...so have at it and don't hold back any punches..:bounce:

YSIC,
Grace

tango
Oct 31st 2007, 07:53 AM
My gut instinct is that a pre-nup means you don't trust the person you're about to marry, which leads me to wonder why you are marrying them.

Is your friend is concerned about his own assets, or the assets he will inherit from his father? If it's his own assets my suggestion is that he spends a lot of time thinking and praying about whether marriage is the right thing for him to do.

If it's his father's assets a lot of thought and prayer is still advisable, but on a practical level his father can leave assets to his son (i.e. the father's grandson) directly and cut your friend out of the equation completely.

Ultimately it boils down to that one phrase, "til death do us part". If your friend thinks his wife-to-be isn't going to honour that phrase, or isn't willing to take the chance, a marriage may not be advisable.

Amazedgrace21
Oct 31st 2007, 02:09 PM
Thank you for the response Tango.

At face value, I suppose it makes some sense regarding a fathers desire to make sure his son's are secure and to give that consideration.

I wish I could place a name on what troubles me about this,

My friend was "left" by a husband who had been a minister when they married, about 6 yrs into his marraige, he had a crisis of sorts in his faith, left the ministry , claimed he no longer believed in God..had had an affair and got one of the members of the church pregnant,and she was married at the time herself..so they went off together..and he has basically fallen off the face of the earth since then..apparently has left a trail of broken marraiges and children in his wake.

My friend on the other hand raised their three children, one was hit by a car when a teenager , suffered some horrendous injuries and by the Grace of God has recovered and thrived..but the medical care, rehab and everying was a huge expense.This gal is so strong in her faith, and so humble,salt of the earth..not driven by materialistic things whatsoever..she remained unmarried to focus all of her attention on her kids, feeling this was the priority for that season of her life.

I can't say one thing bad about her fiance..he too was a very remarkable parent, his children are lovely..he is well respected and liked as is my friend..they appear to be what looks like a very well suited and compatible match.

They also saught council about marraige from the Pastor regarding this period of their life having been single so long..and for what ever reason, this fella ommited his intentions to require a prenup in the counseling sessions, it just arrived out of nowhere while they were approaching making the plans to set the date several sessions into the counseling.

Apparently the Pastors position is that there is nothing wrong with it..

That sounds odd..for so many reasons to me..but again I am not one who dwells on these issues beyond a point, never had the luxury as my circumstances have not been so different from my friends in respect to simply not making money a master..and so little around to even worry about beyond a point..pretty much resting in God's sufficiency for the future where I can not solve such matters beyond a point.

It would seem reasonable to provide legal diligence to the welfare of living children in respect to setting up a will to provide for their welfare in the event of a death..but a prenup?

Ths woman will be in effect the step mom..and she adores this child and will be an integral part of his life between now when he is 12 yrs old and 24 yrs old. if they marry..nor do I or my friend see anythig wrong about the actual arrangement of the income in respect to approaching this as if they were just starting out and had to reach some common ground about becoming one in financial matters..

It's the issue of this mans "worries" over the divorce issue..and the clause his children do not suffer if he 'fails' at his marraige..being the priority and not his concern if "his wife" suffers in the event this happens..that is a huge red flag to me..

But a "pre-nup" aggreement from my standpoint is putting a contract of a man above and beyond the marital contract of a biblical marraige..it's providing for "conditions" of failure..not commitments to success IMHO..

It does not sit well with me..and I am concerned that this is also a sign of how "big" this man's step of faith is with much when he approaches the sanctity of the marraige bond.

That it would become a "dagger" to encourage him to not undertake the challanges of his commitments in respect to the gravity of them in the event were they to reach an impass and his perceptions of headship relied upon "money" as his assurance he did not need to reevaluate if he was wrong over some issue..that this could become a weapon, rather than remain a tool.

In otherwords their "onenness" would not be in balance or actually "real" in terms of the vested commitment..from his end of it.

Why I was shocked, that he Pastor "trivialized this" scripturally.

It also made me wonder once again about if prenups are ever proper when it comes to Christian marraiges as a form of acceptable , in terms of counciling them as acceptable scriptural stewardship by any Pastor. :confused

First time I ever heard of this or was personally vested in regard to the long term implications of anothers welfare in respect to participating in this practice.

Hope others can offer some insights into this and if they have anything to contribute from a Pastor's perspective.

mccain22
Oct 31st 2007, 02:25 PM
i dont necessarily see it as we not trusting this person. I think it is wise. We may trust them when we marry them, but down the road somethings might happen to make them lose trust.

Sold Out
Oct 31st 2007, 07:17 PM
Your friend loves his money too much....so much, that it is getting in the way of his view of a biblical marriage.

If he believes in 'til death do us part' (her too)...this should never be an option.

Ayala
Oct 31st 2007, 07:29 PM
If they feel a pre-nup is necessary, then the seed of doubt in their marriage has already been planted. Marriage is the everlasting bond between a man and woman. Therefore, unless they know in their hearts that they are meant to be together forever, they have no business getting married, IMHO.

tango
Oct 31st 2007, 08:03 PM
i dont necessarily see it as we not trusting this person. I think it is wise. We may trust them when we marry them, but down the road somethings might happen to make them lose trust.

Why would you want a pre-nuptial agreement if not to protect yourself against betrayal? Not wishing to be too brutal about it:

A pre-nup is to protect your assets in the event of a break-up

The desire to protect against a break-up suggests you are afraid of a break-up

If you are afraid of a break-up perhaps you aren't ready to commit "til death do us part"

Amazedgrace21
Oct 31st 2007, 10:18 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head Tango with what disturbs me..that and this one other thing..

The contingency of this mans concerns regarding his "fidelity" issues with his behavior being the one where he is concerned his kids do not suffer just "throws me for a loop"..because it ommited responsibility for his wife for life...if "he is in the wrong".

My friendship with the gentleman is simply not on the same level as with the prospective bride..her standing is impeccable before all her know her and have knowledge of her circumstances.

While I can not vouch for his character beyond the limited view I have of it..I found nothing objectionable and again, very likable and respectable..I admire much about his walk as a Christian and up until this point nothing "concerning" regarding his beliefs in so much as we have had many discussions.

She is struggling with the issue of entering into this contract as a "cross your fingers and hope for the best oath" before men that superceeds what she is already prepared to abide by before God entering to covenent with God..and I think she has a valid concern..

She's not interested in "his money"..or taking him for a ride..and understands the implications of his concerns for the younger child and both boys..while they are basically dependent upon their father until they reach emancipation in regard to making the transition into being financially independent..the rest "boggles her"..

It's not a community property state or are their any laws in this state where he would have to exercise due caution to keep the state out of his affairs either..

I did go and do some research about this..and there is no biblical sanction against it..and at one time marraige contracts were practiced..so it seems to fall under the condition, "while all things are permissable, not all things are profitable to the Glory of God.."

I guess my take is simply this..the pre-nup may be "profitable" to the welfare of the kids and protection of the money..it certainly is not profitable to the Glory of God when prioritizing contingencies for a divorce that one is going to enter into a covenent before God ,that is never going to take place,she will be his wife until her death or his in these circumstances.

I am very dissapointed with the Pastor for not appoaching this more proactively on behalf of setting aside the pre nuptial agreement and simply using other ways to make assurances for the boys welfare as in a living trust.

In my heart of hearts my instinct is to advise my friend to step back out of this and simply trust God to provide the resolution even if it means this engagment does not lead to marraige. That it would not be "emotional blackmail' on her part to make this a condition of remaining in the engagement and that she needs her peace with God before she needs to make her fiance at peace with his fears over the money.:(

PS
I am also surprised the Pastor did not "pick up" that this man brought this forward at the late time he did and well after she had become very emotionally committed to him..between the engagement and setting the marraige date..and AFTER several counseling sessions..that is certainly a red flag of sorts if nothing else about his ability to anticipate and put her needs before his.

tango
Oct 31st 2007, 10:29 PM
Some things are so much less complicated without money muddying the equation


Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 1st 2007, 04:31 AM
So true and so sad because it is Tango.

I look back on all the years of struggling with four of my own, a single mom..and so many challanges the "average bear" never faces along with the normal ones of life. It's not much different now because I am on disability and it's a very modest income indeed..but I don't mind..I am simply grateful I have "just enough"..and often a little to spare when kids show up looking for "vittles".

if anything , at 51 yrs old, I look around and chuckle all the time some of the things laying around have longer life expectencies than I probably do..

I have to honestly say I never felt more contentment and peace by simply relying on the Lord and taking things day to day..that the free things in life were often the most priceless..God has been so kind and generous in so many ways and my kids wanted for 'nothing'...just can't imagine sitting around worrying about all my "stuff" after I'm gone and where it will land or whose hands it will land in.

how vain indeed!

Thirst
Nov 1st 2007, 08:44 AM
Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..:rolleyes:

I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spouse.

I am very interested in what responses are offered and how to council my friend...so have at it and don't hold back any punches..:bounce:

YSIC,
Grace

I haven't read any replies yet, so I don't know how others feel.
But I feel that it is wrong.

I would think that if you agree to marry someone, you do so KNOWING that the Lord put the whole thing together. In essence, I think a pre-nup shows a lack of trust in the Lord, plain and simple.

It saddens me that this man could die and his wife would not receive anything (if I read the post right), and he is okay with that.

I'm all for protecting your children and making sure that they will be taken care of, but the Word tells us that we are to put our spouses above all except the Lord.

I hope this guy spends some serious time in prayer over this.

Bing
Nov 1st 2007, 11:31 AM
It sounded in the original post that a good deal of the hesitance is not down to the threat of divorce, but of the wife favouring her natural children over the husband's son in the event of the husband's death. To me it still betrays this fellow's lack of trust in his wife-to-be, and her devotion to raising his son as one of her own.

In this case it doesn't sound like anybody has divorce on the brain, but a prenuptial agreement always means somebody has an angle they want to play.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 1st 2007, 03:39 PM
Both of you folks hit the nail on the head with this fellas concerns for "his children" being a huge priority..nor would I call that wrong...and perhaps prudent to set aside a mechanism to provide for them..many do..


It's the fact he has determined it would be right to allocate a set amount of income and assets for his 'fiance/wife" no greater than what is equal to what she can bring to the marraige, then leave the rest for his sons out of legal reach..for anyone "but them" for the duration of "his life" and,

In the event "he" somehow down the road fouls this up..thatthey don't suffer financially as a result of him ruininghis marraige and somehow "forgetting" that if he does this, its HIS WIFE, that wil be the one harmed here first and foremost..

If she commits her life to him for 15 yrs..and on the 15th year, he "goes nuts" and commits adultery or finds someoen else more to his suiting..he can legally emacipate his money from the divorce..and technichally, all his wife would get would be what she brought into the marraige and shown the door..

I believe in the eventof his death there would be a modest life insurance policy inforce for her but the rest would roll over to his son's andor their children at the time if I understand this correctly.

Now if this were a first marraige, both starting out from scratch..that would not fly..obviously, but they are in their fifties..so they each have their own "assets"

It's screwy to say the least..15 yrs from now she would be 66 yrs old..while boththe boys would be 39 yrs old and 27 yrs old, assuming they are responsible young adults, married or set up on their own, healthy and situated in life..
Dad sees a contingency that at 67 yrs old he decides he wants a new spring bride..becasue it "happenes"..now he walks away and his wife is left back in 2008 with exactly what she had in 2008 to live on for the balance of her life and has to go out and strt over at 66 yrs old..

I personally find this obnoxious and just absolutely unacceptable for a Pastor to ignore this "reality" being incorporated into a "possibility" and say that there isno danger or scriptural basis to challange this man's reasons for wanting a pre-nup.

If nothing else "if" I had been the Pastor, I would have challanged this and said.."well"..

"considering the obvious wrongness if you did commit this hypothetical sin, how about you set asside 1/3 for your boys , 1/3 for God and the rest for your wife, make this ireevocable ..and that should solve the problem!":)

Marraige is not a 50:50 proposition..its a 200% one, both bring 100% to it!

I<3Jesus
Nov 1st 2007, 03:57 PM
If I were the woman I would not do it. Clearly this man loves his material possessions and money more than he does the idea of spending the rest of his life with someone he loves. Remember what Jesus said about rich men entering the kingdom of heaven, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. We are told that we are possessed by our possessions and this man clearly is. I do not want to seem like I am judging him because we all fall short, but he is clearly living in the flesh.

rchivers
Nov 1st 2007, 04:39 PM
Would the pastor who is counseling then happen to be the pastor of a church that the man gives some significant amount of $ to?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 1st 2007, 06:52 PM
Would the pastor who is counseling then happen to be the pastor of a church that the man gives some significant amount of $ to?

Honestly, my observation is that this gentleman is very faithful and generous in regard to his wealth in respect to making donnations towards ministries..he gives because he can but I have no clue what his spirit about giving would be if he had been one of the ones who were not so blessed.

But then again,so is this sister, and I have often seen her give sacrificially..and part with her only "dollar"..nor ever hesitate and always joyfully when she could..it troubled her deeply when she could not do more.

Both things I know this Pastor has seen and is aware of...I can't imagine what he was thinking...which is why I feel led to approach him on this and try to determine why he felt led to do this to see if I have missed something.

In effect he has put her in a very untenable situation for approaching this man and attempting to present her concerns without appearing to be "guilty" of some wrongful motive for doing so..because in his "mind" he is in the right and has the Pastors approval..hence she could "only " be wrong if she failed to abide by this council.

That's pretty lousey IMHO..and a great disservice to actually ministering to someone who may have responded differently had it not been reinforced he was on the wrong page to begin with for much.

It calls this Pastors behavior into account as well for promoting this and am not sure it should be disregarded here either...which I am also inclined to approach as such. It grieves me terribly.

green0086
Nov 3rd 2007, 03:24 AM
I'm wondering if this man is responding to some pressure from his family, specifically his father from whom a large inheritance will come.

In the case that my father left me a sum of money with the desire that it be used to provide for his grandchildren only, I think it would be right for me to honor his wishes. Even if this is not what the father has expressed explicitly, I understand that sometimes wealthy families feel they have a responsibility to preserve that wealth for subsequent generations. In other words, you may not feel that an inheritance is "your money" to do with what you want or even feel is appropriate. In that case it would not be about keeping money away from your spouse in the event of a death or break-up, but more about fulfilling the wishes of your parents. Of course, this does not apply to any arrangements made with regard to his own pension, assets, etc.

Even so, to make such an agreement, there would have to be some tiny seed of a concern that possibly this marraige could not work out. Whether you can trust some one wholy while still believing there is the slightest chance they could do something totally out of character that would lead to the end of the marraige, I don't know. But, I think that concern would be the place I would focus my energy first, before making any decisions about money.

tango
Nov 3rd 2007, 10:09 AM
If preservation of the inheritance is the problem there are two points I'd note.


Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.


And the far more practical notion that the groom-to-be's parents can always leave money into some kind of discretionary trust to look after him and then his biological children, or create a trust to look after the children and leave a lesser amount to him.

Saved7
Nov 3rd 2007, 08:07 PM
well there is a lot here already so I probably cannot add anything to the conversation. But honestly, I can understand this mans position, however, as the woman in the relationship I would also be hurt and wonder if the man loves me at all. Because if he wants to marry her he should love her enough to want to make sure she is taken care of if anything happens to him. And on top of all that, it sounds to me like he questions his decision to marry her, which means he questions his love for her, or maybe he questions her love for him. Simply because we are talking about a poor woman marrying a wealthy man.
But as others have said, there may be family pressure, and there are other ways around this concern. Trust funds are a great way to insure estate protections. And shoot, he could even give her a monthly allowance to do with what she wills, including save it.
Ultimately, I think that this situation is doomed from the start unless he re-evaluates the situation. :hmm: Because I have a feeling that this is going to leave her with some feelings of resentment toward him, because she will always question his love and trust for her. I would address this particular aspect with your friend and tell him to consider this before he goes any further. And maybe just insure the care of his children, his estate and his fathers estate, and the care of her in his will instead of a prenup.

ServantofTruth
Nov 13th 2007, 06:58 AM
I love these sorts of issues. Because we don't have to beat about the bush, we all already know the answer but just won't do it!
God gives me so many gifts every day of my life. I have a roof over my head - but only 3 bedrooms for a family of 7 i cry out. I have more food than i can eat, 2 cars, clothes and money to spare - it's not enough!
We are meant to be 'saved' and looking to the Kingdom! We are in this world - but not part of this world. But i just can't let go. God says trust me and i'll provide everything you NEED. I look at my life and say i can see you have always done that Lord, but but but but........
This man, like me, trusts wealth and money in the bank. Like me he'd have more faith if it could all be taken away. So where does that leave us in this cae? Satan the devil having a field day! My advise to your female friend would be to be the best christian she can be, and put marriage second. If this man wants money more than her, so be it.

th1bill
Nov 13th 2007, 07:32 PM
Tango is correct. It all comes down to who is your God?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 13th 2007, 08:08 PM
Just want to report I suggested both folks drop in here and "lurk" to read the responses..

This brother was convicted his position on the pre-nup was wrong and has departed from it 'completely'..and is telling grampa to set up the grandkids and the church with the proceeds from his estate.

That God has already blessed him more than he deserves to have provided my friend as a partner for the balance of his life.."if" she would still have him.

She said ,yes..and furthermore both are going to commit and pursue doing a mission trip in China with what ever else God has blessed with them with for their "honeymoon".

So thanks to all who participated and contributed their wisdom and prayers to this couple:hug:

YSIC,
Grace

ServantofTruth
Nov 13th 2007, 08:21 PM
Both saved and looking together in the right direction towards the Kingdom. Fantastic news, may God bless their marriage and strengthen and build their believe. Not often that things turn out this great. Wow! :kiss:

FallingWaters
Nov 13th 2007, 08:45 PM
It would break my heart if the man I wanted to marry wanted me to sign such an agreement.

And why is she so little provided for in case there is a divorce?! If she loves him and she want to sign it, it should be re-written to better provide for her. No one is looking after her best interests. She should not sign it the way it stands.

I guess I can be thankful I did not marry a rich man.

Saved7
Nov 13th 2007, 09:23 PM
Just want to report I suggested both folks drop in here and "lurk" to read the responses..

This brother was convicted his position on the pre-nup was wrong and has departed from it 'completely'..and is telling grampa to set up the grandkids and the church with the proceeds from his estate.

That God has already blessed him more than he deserves to have provided my friend as a partner for the balance of his life.."if" she would still have him.

She said ,yes..and furthermore both are going to commit and pursue doing a mission trip in China with what ever else God has blessed with them with for their "honeymoon".

So thanks to all who participated and contributed their wisdom and prayers to this couple:hug:

YSIC,
Grace


Well all glory to God!!!!1:pp:pp This IS INDEED WONDERFUL NEWS!!! God bless him in his decision and the Lord bless their marriage. And that was wise of you to suggest what you did, and God bless you for it.:hug:

tango
Nov 13th 2007, 10:15 PM
Just want to report I suggested both folks drop in here and "lurk" to read the responses..

This brother was convicted his position on the pre-nup was wrong and has departed from it 'completely'..and is telling grampa to set up the grandkids and the church with the proceeds from his estate.

That God has already blessed him more than he deserves to have provided my friend as a partner for the balance of his life.."if" she would still have him.

She said ,yes..and furthermore both are going to commit and pursue doing a mission trip in China with what ever else God has blessed with them with for their "honeymoon".

So thanks to all who participated and contributed their wisdom and prayers to this couple:hug:

YSIC,
Grace

Good news, glad to hear everything worked out well. Looks like everyone is happy and God gets some more glory, which is never a bad thing :)

FallingWaters
Nov 13th 2007, 11:03 PM
Just want to report I suggested both folks drop in here and "lurk" to read the responses..

This brother was convicted his position on the pre-nup was wrong and has departed from it 'completely'..and is telling grampa to set up the grandkids and the church with the proceeds from his estate.

That God has already blessed him more than he deserves to have provided my friend as a partner for the balance of his life.."if" she would still have him.

She said ,yes..and furthermore both are going to commit and pursue doing a mission trip in China with what ever else God has blessed with them with for their "honeymoon".

So thanks to all who participated and contributed their wisdom and prayers to this couple:hug:

YSIC,
GracePraise the Lord!
That is awesome!

boltnut55
Dec 11th 2007, 12:15 AM
If I were dating again, it would be something that I would have thought about, that is, whether to have a prenump or not. Or perhaps he was too embarassed to bring it up before and finally was forced to as he saw the wedding date approaching. Unless it's because someone planted the seed in him recently.

As one can see by your lady friend, she married a pastor and still got divorced, so there are no guarantees. I have nothing to back me up except the practical side of me, and I'm thinking the man is doing a wise thing of have the agreement; however, I think they need to have a better discussion on what the outcome would be for her. Understandably, she should not have 1/2 of his assets or of his inheritance, but it needs to make sense.

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 03:26 PM
Despite the advice of my attorney, I could not in good conscience use a pre-nuptual agreement. The vow is ............."till death do you part." If I took the vow "till death," I intend to honor it. As to distribution at ones death; a will, not a pre-nup, handles that matter. If one enters into marriage with an escape clause, they are not really being honest when they make the vow "till death do you part."
I am the one who stands to lose financially. My wife brought nothing but debt into the marriage and I brought in substantial cash, real-estate, and business holdings. All of which were debt free. I guess the question in my mind was do I do it God's way, or Man's way. My worldly goods were accumulated by doing It God's way so I will continue to do it His way.

amazzin
May 6th 2008, 03:40 PM
Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..:rolleyes:

I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spouse.

I am very interested in what responses are offered and how to council my friend...so have at it and don't hold back any punches..:bounce:

YSIC,
Grace

As a pastor I deal with this question almost on a weekly basis. It is a complex issue that depends on numerous factors ranging from net worth of the parties, financial stability, off shore ownerships, real estate etc etc etc.

In the end, there is a place for a prenup and there are places where it is just a tool to control. what I have found that works best for me is to seek out legal counsel. Use a Christian lawyer who understands family law.

Saying it is a conditional approach to marriage is some what true but often times not the case when one spouse has invested years and all of thier wealth in a business which needs protection from both ends.

Reynolds357
May 6th 2008, 05:19 PM
As a pastor I deal with this question almost on a weekly basis. It is a complex issue that depends on numerous factors ranging from net worth of the parties, financial stability, off shore ownerships, real estate etc etc etc.

In the end, there is a place for a prenup and there are places where it is just a tool to control. what I have found that works best for me is to seek out legal counsel. Use a Christian lawyer who understands family law.

Saying it is a conditional approach to marriage is some what true but often times not the case when one spouse has invested years and all of thier wealth in a business which needs protection from both ends.
In essence, you are saying that you should enter into marriage planning for its failure? With all respect, I think that in this case you are applying man's wisdom to a situation. Man's wisdom in this situation does not mesh with God's wisdom. God ordained Marriage to be a covenant. Our Lord and Saviour Himself said that the covenant was only broken because of hardness of of Heart. I am also an ordained pastor and do counsel. I could never tell someone God said this, but due to the norms of society today you shold do things man's way instead of His way. If a marriage is easy to get out of, people will take the easy road out. I do not see how you could give the marriage vow"till death do you part," knowing that you had counseled the couple to enter into a pre-nuptual agreement on how they would break the vow if they so decided to do so at a latter date. When I counsel, and when I was counseled, I was taught and now teach that marriage is a covenant. It was ordained by God. It is not to be broken. When I went to counseling for my marriage, the counselor asked us if we had or intended to have a pre-nuptual agreement. We said no. He said "Good, if you had I would not mary you." From a pastoral standpoint, I can not see how one could take any other position. Man's wisdom, God's wisdom; which do we choose to follow? Man's way, God's way; which way do we order our lives? Marriage is tough, people should be taught to endure in the marriage. Vows are taken in the sight of God to be kept, not broken. Why make a provision to break a vow that will be taken before God, before the vow is even made?
Man's way?
God's way?

Revinius
May 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
Tell this guy to try cramming himself through the eye of a needle cos he has about as much chance of entering heaven if he lives the rest of his life as he is demonstrating here. Who honestly care about money next to the granduer of God? Money is just something we have that we use to exchange for goods. This man needs to wake up to reality and start living for Jesus and not for his attachment to his monetary desires. I understand that we and Christians should plan ahead as Paul did in his ministry. But extending such planning to counteracting God's sovereignty in the institution of marriage is in essence wilfully sinning. He may have any way of justifying himself in this but when it comes down to it he isnt thinking of his future wife and isnt thinking of God's control. He should be praying for God to bless his marriage rather than writing up fence laws with the expectation of a failure. It disgusts me.

servantsheart
May 6th 2008, 07:56 PM
[quote=Amazedgrace21;1426247]Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

In many ways I can understand how this person feels. He wants to protect his children from the possibility of someone trying to claim what is rightfully theirs.
On the other hand the lady sounds like she did come up with the short end in her previous marriage. This was wrong for her ex not to make a better provision for her retirement for her.


Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

If this gentleman has the funds it sounds like he does then maybe he could buy her a small but nicely furnished house or condo in a good neighborhood. This way she would not have to be put out on the street and would have the safety of her own place awaiting her...they could lease it out for now.
And any money from the sell of her mobile home should be put into an account for her...
And if he has this kind of financial backing then perhaps he would hire someone to come in and clean the family home once or twice a month...making sure the son't don't become lazy and self centered.

And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

She shoul not be expected to contribute to the upkeep of the family home since whe does not get it or anything inside of it...here again, perhaps it would be better to sell the home and buy a home together that will go entirely to her if anything happens to him.

If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..:rolleyes:

Wheather she would be equitably compensated would have to be determined by a lawyer...He should want to be sure she is WELL taken care of and left without any fears, worries or debts.

I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

Once again she needs to be able to put her thoughts and needs into this agreement so she is taken care of and not left out financially.

Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spo
use.
I agree that you would expect practicing Christians to get along. Plan for the marriage to last until they are separated by death.
This man has worked hard to have what he does and in these financial times, trying to put two boys through college, etc. So can you honestly blame him for being concerned about loosing everything he has if she is not the nice Christian person that has been described.
I don't think it has to be looked upon as a negative towards the possilble failure of the marriage. But rather his expression to her of his desire to take care of his children AND her. But he must be willing to make better provisions for her then what has been stated here (other wise I would fear that he cares more for his children then he does her...he needs to be able to love them with perspective as to who they are: his children that can not be replaced but who are his children ...he should be raising them so that they will be able to fly away from the nest and support themselves one day;
and his wife, his companion, his friend, his love, his
helpmate, who needs to be important to him also....a happy balance is required in handleling this situation. Both now and in the future.

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 01:02 AM
[quote=Amazedgrace21;1426247]Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this..whichis why I don't want to allow these to be a factor in a response for advice for a dear friend over this,

Here's the situation..he's a widower, one child is half way through college, the other only 12 yrs old, owns his home, has a large pension from one jobhe worked at for 29 yrs, has started a new career, is contemplating his own businesin the near future as he is only 53 yrs old.He is an only child, will inherit a sizeable estate when his father passes away who is also a widower and in his late 80's.

She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick as in no assetsor retirement , she owns her own mobilehome , car, and has a modest income but pretty much lived pay check to pay check while raising her own children absent the former husbands financial assistance..was the stay at home parent before this..so there will be no time for her to ever actually establish the earning potential her fiance has..or set up a retirement plan that will cover her needs absent working for as long as possible.

In many ways I can understand how this person feels. He wants to protect his children from the possibility of someone trying to claim what is rightfully theirs.
On the other hand the lady sounds like she did come up with the short end in her previous marriage. This was wrong for her ex not to make a better provision for her retirement for her.


Her fiance wants them to sign and enter into a prenuptual agreement where the bulk of the assets, home and grandfather to the boys estate is put under protection and seperation for the son's in the event he were to die..so in effect she is supposed to sell of any of her belongings, her home. etc..when they get married, move in with him, keep working and inthe event he dies..she is on her own..with a very small allowance set aside to help her get back on her feet again..

If this gentleman has the funds it sounds like he does then maybe he could buy her a small but nicely furnished house or condo in a good neighborhood. This way she would not have to be put out on the street and would have the safety of her own place awaiting her...they could lease it out for now.
And any money from the sell of her mobile home should be put into an account for her...
And if he has this kind of financial backing then perhaps he would hire someone to come in and clean the family home once or twice a month...making sure the son't don't become lazy and self centered.

And this is supposed to stand from now until the youngest child turns 24 yrs old...or 12 yrs from now..that and he will only match and contribute the amount she earns as "joint assets", the rest set aside for his sons.but they will stay in his home which she will never be a co-owner of but will be expected to contribute to the upkeep of as "the wife"..

She shoul not be expected to contribute to the upkeep of the family home since whe does not get it or anything inside of it...here again, perhaps it would be better to sell the home and buy a home together that will go entirely to her if anything happens to him.

If they divorce, she gets nothing..even if he were to be at fault..because she would have been equitably compensated by this arrangement..:rolleyes:

Wheather she would be equitably compensated would have to be determined by a lawyer...He should want to be sure she is WELL taken care of and left without any fears, worries or debts.

I was a bit shocked to hear this..but both profess to be Christians and he is arguing his biblical responsibilites to his children justify this request and refuses to get married to anyone who will not abide by these terms..to "protect his children".

Once again she needs to be able to put her thoughts and needs into this agreement so she is taken care of and not left out financially.

Is he right?..something seems very wrong with this "conditional" approach to marraige where it is supposed to be two Christians entering a biblical marraige where there should be no divorce "down the road" or anticipating failure and preparing with a pre-emptive strike here towards ones spo
use.
I agree that you would expect practicing Christians to get along. Plan for the marriage to last until they are separated by death.
This man has worked hard to have what he does and in these financial times, trying to put two boys through college, etc. So can you honestly blame him for being concerned about loosing everything he has if she is not the nice Christian person that has been described.
I don't think it has to be looked upon as a negative towards the possilble failure of the marriage. But rather his expression to her of his desire to take care of his children AND her. But he must be willing to make better provisions for her then what has been stated here (other wise I would fear that he cares more for his children then he does her...he needs to be able to love them with perspective as to who they are: his children that can not be replaced but who are his children ...he should be raising them so that they will be able to fly away from the nest and support themselves one day;
and his wife, his companion, his friend, his love, his
helpmate, who needs to be important to him also....a happy balance is required in handleling this situation. Both now and in the future.
We can justify almost anything. There are "good reasons" to do all sorts of things that are against the wisdom of God.

amazzin
May 7th 2008, 01:30 AM
In essence, you are saying that you should enter into marriage planning for its failure? With all respect, I think that in this case you are applying man's wisdom to a situation. Man's wisdom in this situation does not mesh with God's wisdom. God ordained Marriage to be a covenant. Our Lord and Saviour Himself said that the covenant was only broken because of hardness of of Heart. I am also an ordained pastor and do counsel. I could never tell someone God said this, but due to the norms of society today you shold do things man's way instead of His way. If a marriage is easy to get out of, people will take the easy road out. I do not see how you could give the marriage vow"till death do you part," knowing that you had counseled the couple to enter into a pre-nuptual agreement on how they would break the vow if they so decided to do so at a latter date. When I counsel, and when I was counseled, I was taught and now teach that marriage is a covenant. It was ordained by God. It is not to be broken. When I went to counseling for my marriage, the counselor asked us if we had or intended to have a pre-nuptual agreement. We said no. He said "Good, if you had I would not mary you." From a pastoral standpoint, I can not see how one could take any other position. Man's wisdom, God's wisdom; which do we choose to follow? Man's way, God's way; which way do we order our lives? Marriage is tough, people should be taught to endure in the marriage. Vows are taken in the sight of God to be kept, not broken. Why make a provision to break a vow that will be taken before God, before the vow is even made?
Man's way?
God's way?

Sir

Read my post carefully. You will notice that is not what I say.

I never would encourage people to breal their vows.

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 01:34 AM
Sir

Read my post carefully. You will notice that is not what I say.

I never would encourage people to breal their vows.

I did read what you said. With all respect, you are counseling with the provision for divorce. If two are entering covenant, there will be no divorce. Are they entering a God ordained covenant, or merely a "civil union?" I council covenant. A blood covenant to be more precise. Ther is no provision counciled for it to be broken. It is a life long covenant.

amazzin
May 7th 2008, 01:36 AM
I did read what you said. With all respect, you are counseling with the provision for divorce. If two are entering covenant, there will be no divorce. Are they entering a God ordained covenant, or merely a "civil union?" I council covenant. A blood covenant to be more precise. Ther is no provision counciled for it to be broken. It is a life long covenant.

Please tell me how you see a prenup and pleae tell me what expereince you have in such matters as it pertaikns not as a licence to "divorce" but as a form of protection for each spouse in the event of litigation from third parties?

Thank you

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 01:44 AM
Please tell me how you see a prenup and pleae tell me what expereince you have in such matters as it pertaikns not as a licence to "divorce" but as a form of protection for each spouse in the event of litigation from third parties?

Thank you

What specific litigation from third parties are you referring?
I assume that you are speaking of children. A will, not a pre-nup is the best legal means to cover that.

amazzin
May 7th 2008, 01:52 AM
What specific litigation from third parties are you referring?
I assume that you are speaking of children. A will, not a pre-nup is the best legal means to cover that.

No that's not what I am referring to.

Here's the scenario:

Mr A wants to marry Ms B to become MR and MRS AB.

Mr A is a mutlinational enterpreneur worth $X millions. Ms B net worth is $15,000 and real estate.

Mr A asks for a prenup. Ms B asks why?

Mr A says because in the event of a bankrupcy the $15,000 plus the home Ms B brings into the marriage is protected from the courts because of the prenup. (vice versa is true also.).

Ms B agrees.

Mr A and Ms B become Mr and Mrs AB.

Mr AB continues to be successful when 10 yrs later one of his products malfunctions and kills someone. He goes bankrupt because no one will buy his product any longer and looses everyting in the ensuing litigation. They go after everything except becvause of the prenup they cannot touch Mrs AB $15,000 and her home that she brought into the marriage.

Mr and Mrs AB live happily ever after.

Sammy
May 7th 2008, 02:59 AM
Hello I had a post nup agreement. The reason why I did is this. My first wife divorced me and took the kids. That just about killed me. I am very close to my kids. When that happened my life I thought was worth nothing. Not only the kids but alot of other stuff too. So when I met my 2nd wife she always told me that what she came in the marriage with is what she would leave with. At the time of marriage she had two kids. I had a good job with good benifits. She really had nothing at all. She was still living with her parents. I loved her. I told her that I was going to get a post nup. She was ok with that at least that what I thought. I told her that I would never use it unless divorce came. Well 17 yrs later sorry to say she left me and I had no chose but to use it. I still pray she would come back home. So I think in some cases I think a pre or post is ok. I know some Christian that got taken to the cleaners. So its a toss up should I or shouldn't I. God knows my heart better than me and he knows that I still am in love with her. I don't want a divorce at all. Been gone now for 19 months

Sammy

NHL Fever
May 7th 2008, 05:15 AM
I think the point has been missed that pre-nups can protect family disputes from happening if both parties perish. For example kids from one side can take all the money if they play their cards right. If there was a car crash, and one parent died, and then the other parent died later - the money would go to the second parent to die, and then to their kids. The pre-nup takes care of that.

Reynolds357
May 7th 2008, 12:25 PM
No that's not what I am referring to.

Here's the scenario:

Mr A wants to marry Ms B to become MR and MRS AB.

Mr A is a mutlinational enterpreneur worth $X millions. Ms B net worth is $15,000 and real estate.

Mr A asks for a prenup. Ms B asks why?

Mr A says because in the event of a bankrupcy the $15,000 plus the home Ms B brings into the marriage is protected from the courts because of the prenup. (vice versa is true also.).

Ms B agrees.

Mr A and Ms B become Mr and Mrs AB.

Mr AB continues to be successful when 10 yrs later one of his products malfunctions and kills someone. He goes bankrupt because no one will buy his product any longer and looses everyting in the ensuing litigation. They go after everything except becvause of the prenup they cannot touch Mrs AB $15,000 and her home that she brought into the marriage.

Mr and Mrs AB live happily ever after.

MR and and Mrs AB are married. From God's standpoint, what is his is hers and hers his. That would include bad debt if that were to happen.

amazzin
May 8th 2008, 02:23 AM
MR and and Mrs AB are married. From God's standpoint, what is his is hers and hers his. That would include bad debt if that were to happen.

Sure they both share in the pain but at the very least Mrs AB gets to keep what she brought into the marriage and have a semblence of a life

servantsheart
May 8th 2008, 04:59 AM
[quote=servantsheart;1629238]
We can justify almost anything. There are "good reasons" to do all sorts of things that are against the wisdom of God.
I understand and respect what you stated in another message about marriage being a blood covenant.
What I was looking at was the fact that we have no idea what kind of people are involved in this pre-martial agreement. Are they born again believers who understand "blood covenant" marriage? Are they people who just believe their is a God in heaven? Etc... I was assuming that they were not born again or at least maybe he is not, because of his attitude with the pre-martial agreement and not wanting to give the bride to be much of anything.
Again, I understand that a marriage is a covenant to God and should not be broken...but what 'if'...what if it does not work out for what ever reason? What if this lady is not a Christian person and would take him to the cleaners and leave him without money to pay for his two boy's and their college educations, or have retirement funds, or major health problems leaving bills to be paid....
I know we are suppose to believe that God will provide for our every need...but I have lived through seeing my father taken for over fourty thousand dollars by a very wicked women after the death of my mother.
At sixty-one I have seen a lot in this old world and I guess I believe that we have to look out for ourselves and use the wisdom God put's inside of us to the best ability we have.

th1bill
May 8th 2008, 06:43 AM
Honestly, I have some pretty strong feelings about this.
YSIC,
Grace
.. I've not read the responses to this string nor do I believe that I should. There is so very much to devide Christians that I try not to find anything else to toss into the mix but for a Christian to even consider a prenuptial agreement just tosses reams of uncertainty into the mix. I mean, is God or is He not? I really did not misstate the question and I do mean to ask, "Is God?" Because if He is why would we tempt Him this way?

daughter
May 8th 2008, 10:16 AM
Just want to report I suggested both folks drop in here and "lurk" to read the responses..

This brother was convicted his position on the pre-nup was wrong and has departed from it 'completely'..and is telling grampa to set up the grandkids and the church with the proceeds from his estate.

That God has already blessed him more than he deserves to have provided my friend as a partner for the balance of his life.."if" she would still have him.

She said ,yes..and furthermore both are going to commit and pursue doing a mission trip in China with what ever else God has blessed with them with for their "honeymoon".

So thanks to all who participated and contributed their wisdom and prayers to this couple:hug:

YSIC,
Grace
Wonderful! I'm so glad that this situation has been resolved in God's way, not man's way. :hug: Thank you for sharing this news.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 03:26 PM
Sure they both share in the pain but at the very least Mrs AB gets to keep what she brought into the marriage and have a semblence of a life

In God's eyes, the two become one. Why not let the two become one completely? When you marry someone, you give them your all and you receive their all. You do not hold back from one another. The good is taken with the bad.

Reynolds357
May 8th 2008, 03:31 PM
[quote=Reynolds357;1629524]
I understand and respect what you stated in another message about marriage being a blood covenant.
What I was looking at was the fact that we have no idea what kind of people are involved in this pre-martial agreement. Are they born again believers who understand "blood covenant" marriage? Are they people who just believe their is a God in heaven? Etc... I was assuming that they were not born again or at least maybe he is not, because of his attitude with the pre-martial agreement and not wanting to give the bride to be much of anything.
Again, I understand that a marriage is a covenant to God and should not be broken...but what 'if'...what if it does not work out for what ever reason? What if this lady is not a Christian person and would take him to the cleaners and leave him without money to pay for his two boy's and their college educations, or have retirement funds, or major health problems leaving bills to be paid....
I know we are suppose to believe that God will provide for our every need...but I have lived through seeing my father taken for over fourty thousand dollars by a very wicked women after the death of my mother.
At sixty-one I have seen a lot in this old world and I guess I believe that we have to look out for ourselves and use the wisdom God put's inside of us to the best ability we have.

What if? If one party is a christian and the other not, the marriage should not happen anyway. The marriage is against the council of God. God did not instruct man to enter marriage having Already planned his escape clause. He instructed the two to become one flesh until the death of one of the partners. God's wisdom on the matter is straightforward. Man's wisdom simply is not at harmony with His wisdom.

NHL Fever
May 8th 2008, 10:55 PM
In God's eyes, the two become one. Why not let the two become one completely? When you marry someone, you give them your all and you receive their all.


But you do not give your kids all, to their kids (or other relatives). When people marry with previous children, its more complicated than do you trust each other. Even if both parties are truly pious widows, both fine God-fearing individuals with nothing but love and trust for each other, greedy in-laws can still steal your children's financial security.

Its different with kids, because if you take the risk of opening your finances to somebody for the sake of love, than is your risk to take. Its a different matter to risk another innocent party's (your kids) financial future for the sake of your personal life, when that innocent party did not make the choice to do that. Will your partner become someone else after you marry - maybe runs around on you or gets a divorce despite your wishes? In other words, is your assessment of your partner good enough to risk your family on? Its a gamble, and I think wise and loving parent would make provision for their children based on all possibilities.

A reasonable spouse would recognize that a pre-nup in that circumstance has nothing to do with them, and everything to do with love for your children. There are other circumstances than the above, such as the following which I stated earlier:
- You and spouse have previous children
- You and spouse get into car crash, you die and spouse goes into critical care
- Your assets go to spouse after you died
- Spouse partly recovers then later dies in hospital
- Spouses assets (now including your previous assets) go to their children
- Your children get money purely at the grace of your spouses children

Or further - you, spouse and spouse's kids all in same accident, you die, then spouse, then spouse's kids - money goes to whoever spouse's kids money would go to (not your kids). Some random in-laws now control the money you would have sent to your kids. Probably 50% of more of people here will shudder at the thought. Pre-nup solves it.

Reynolds357
May 9th 2008, 12:00 AM
But you do not give your kids all, to their kids (or other relatives). When people marry with previous children, its more complicated than do you trust each other. Even if both parties are truly pious widows, both fine God-fearing individuals with nothing but love and trust for each other, greedy in-laws can still steal your children's financial security.

Its different with kids, because if you take the risk of opening your finances to somebody for the sake of love, than is your risk to take. Its a different matter to risk another innocent party's (your kids) financial future for the sake of your personal life, when that innocent party did not make the choice to do that. Will your partner become someone else after you marry - maybe runs around on you or gets a divorce despite your wishes? In other words, is your assessment of your partner good enough to risk your family on? Its a gamble, and I think wise and loving parent would make provision for their children based on all possibilities.

A reasonable spouse would recognize that a pre-nup in that circumstance has nothing to do with them, and everything to do with love for your children. There are other circumstances than the above, such as the following which I stated earlier:
- You and spouse have previous children
- You and spouse get into car crash, you die and spouse goes into critical care
- Your assets go to spouse after you died
- Spouse partly recovers then later dies in hospital
- Spouses assets (now including your previous assets) go to their children
- Your children get money purely at the grace of your spouses children

Or further - you, spouse and spouse's kids all in same accident, you die, then spouse, then spouse's kids - money goes to whoever spouse's kids money would go to (not your kids). Some random in-laws now control the money you would have sent to your kids. Probably 50% of more of people here will shudder at the thought. Pre-nup solves it.

A will, not a pre-nup is the christian way to deal with the circumsances to which you refer.

NHL Fever
May 9th 2008, 12:24 AM
A will, not a pre-nup is the christian way to deal with the circumsances to which you refer.

That was my first thought, but a will will not differentiate between what is your money vs what is spouse's money unless that difference is made before marriage since money and value can change over time. If you die and leave your estate to your kids, your spouse can still have rights over everything in your joint name unless measures are taken before hand to determine exactly how to divide it up, ie a pre-nup.

Reynolds357
May 9th 2008, 12:30 AM
That was my first thought, but a will will not differentiate between what is your money vs what is spouse's money unless that difference is made before marriage since money and value can change over time. If you die and leave your estate to your kids, your husband can still have rights over everything in your joint name unless measures are taken before hand to determine exactly how to divide it up, ie a pre-nup.

I am sure that the laws differ by State. In Georgia, the will is perfectly capable of handling the distribution of wealth at the death of one spouse. I would not have a scriptural problem with a pre-nup that dealt with, and only with, the distribution of assets at the death of one spouse. However, if the pre-nup dealt with divorce in any way, I still have scriptural problems with it.

NHL Fever
May 9th 2008, 12:36 AM
I am sure that the laws differ by State. In Georgia, the will is perfectly capable of handling the distribution of wealth at the death of one spouse. I would not have a scriptural problem with a pre-nup that dealt with, and only with, the distribution of assets at the death of one spouse. However, if the pre-nup dealt with divorce in any way, I still have scriptural problems with it.

What if the pre-nup dealt with distributions of wealth with respect to a possible divorce? Only one person needs to ask for a divorce, and the other person's kids could lose out financially because of it.

Reynolds357
May 9th 2008, 12:51 AM
What if the pre-nup dealt with distributions of wealth with respect to a possible divorce? Only one person needs to ask for a divorce, and the other person's kids could lose out financially because of it.
The kids would just have to lose out. Marriage is not entered into with a written provision for its failure. The money is not the kids, it is the parents. If the parent loses most of it in a divorce, it was not the children's money anyway. We can always find a reason to justify our actions, but entering a covenant with a written provision for its failure, is simply an abomination to everything a covenant was ordained by God to be.

NHL Fever
May 9th 2008, 10:38 PM
The kids would just have to lose out. Marriage is not entered into with a written provision for its failure. The money is not the kids, it is the parents. If the parent loses most of it in a divorce, it was not the children's money anyway. We can always find a reason to justify our actions, but entering a covenant with a written provision for its failure, is simply an abomination to everything a covenant was ordained by God to be.

We'll have to disagree I guess. God does not evaluate the actions in and of themselves but rather the heart. The heart justifies in God's eyes, the individual who signs a pre-nup out of love rather than out of fear or distrust. When it comes to concern for other human beings especially our children, protection and provision for them is a marker of a real man or woman. Pre-nups in that case protect those who should not suffer because of the failures of the couple. Its pretty arrogant and selfish IMO, to risk the best form of financial and social security of children, only to justify one's own beliefs about themselves and their need for personal fulfillment.

Reynolds357
May 10th 2008, 05:21 PM
We'll have to disagree I guess. God does not evaluate the actions in and of themselves but rather the heart. The heart justifies in God's eyes, the individual who signs a pre-nup out of love rather than out of fear or distrust. When it comes to concern for other human beings especially our children, protection and provision for them is a marker of a real man or woman. Pre-nups in that case protect those who should not suffer because of the failures of the couple. Its pretty arrogant and selfish IMO, to risk the best form of financial and social security of children, only to justify one's own beliefs about themselves and their need for personal fulfillment.
Marriage is ordained by God to be a covenant. By placing a provision for its failure in the covenant, you reduce the covenant to a mere civil union.

little_tigress
May 10th 2008, 06:37 PM
i see that this has been resolved and i'm glad to hear it :)

personally i doubt i could ever marry anyone that felt the need for a prenup. If he doesn't trust me then why would he want to marry me or if i didn't trust him then why on earth would i want to marry him? Marriage is giving all of yourself to your spouse, including possessions. and yes there is that risk of things not working out but my thought is why cripple the marriage with the tone of distrust before it even starts just because of what could happen?

Harvest Ministries
Jan 4th 2009, 11:56 PM
Very interesting indeed. What if the fiance is a woman requesting a prenup? Would the views submitted remain the same?
My wife requested a prenup before we were married. She indicated at the time that the need for the prenup was not solely hers, but to satisfy her Mother, and other family and friends who suspected that I wanted to marry her for what she had.
What did she have? She owned a Bread and Breakfast that she acquired out of a divorce settlement with her first husband. She, at the time I proposed to her, was diagnosed with breast cancer and had just completed surgery and began her chemotheraphy. I felt that this was the perfect time to demonstrate my love and commitment to her, at the time when she would have felt abandoned and hopeless. I thought, that just incase she thought, I would no longer have any interest in her I would prove otherwise I proposed.
She said yes, but, first you must prove your love for me by agreeing to sign a prenup. My response to her, " you do not trust me". She insisted that unless I signed the agreement there would be no marriage. I decided that if I held out, she and her family would be convinced that I did not love her, so I agreed and signed the prenup.
The marriage did not go very far when the first disagreement resulted in my being threatened with being kicked out of her house. That behavior continued until finally I could not return to her anymore in "her house" and we are legally separated.
IMOP: Beware of any Christian who proposes a prenup. A prenup introduces the first negative, the seed of doubt, the opening that allows the enemy to walk right in.
A Pastor that counsels " it is OK" has not sought the Holy Spirit's guidance and He/She does not understand the seriousness of the vows inherent in a marriage contract.
Of course there is a lot more detail to my experience and I would be happy to share it some other time.

Revinius
Jan 5th 2009, 05:57 AM
Very interesting indeed. What if the fiance is a woman requesting a prenup? Would the views submitted remain the same?
My wife requested a prenup before we were married. She indicated at the time that the need for the prenup was not solely hers, but to satisfy her Mother, and other family and friends who suspected that I wanted to marry her for what she had.
What did she have? She owned a Bread and Breakfast that she acquired out of a divorce settlement with her first husband. She, at the time I proposed to her, was diagnosed with breast cancer and had just completed surgery and began her chemotheraphy. I felt that this was the perfect time to demonstrate my love and commitment to her, at the time when she would have felt abandoned and hopeless. I thought, that just incase she thought, I would no longer have any interest in her I would prove otherwise I proposed.
She said yes, but, first you must prove your love for me by agreeing to sign a prenup. My response to her, " you do not trust me". She insisted that unless I signed the agreement there would be no marriage. I decided that if I held out, she and her family would be convinced that I did not love her, so I agreed and signed the prenup.
The marriage did not go very far when the first disagreement resulted in my being threatened with being kicked out of her house. That behavior continued until finally I could not return to her anymore in "her house" and we are legally separated.
IMOP: Beware of any Christian who proposes a prenup. A prenup introduces the first negative, the seed of doubt, the opening that allows the enemy to walk right in.
A Pastor that counsels " it is OK" has not sought the Holy Spirit's guidance and He/She does not understand the seriousness of the vows inherent in a marriage contract.
Of course there is a lot more detail to my experience and I would be happy to share it some other time.

If she doesnt trust you to leader her in the relationship then there is little point to marriage. We cant conform to this world, with it's idols. We musnt conform to this world. Your experience has given you wisdom brother. God be praised. I hope you pray for her, that she would come to a real knowledge of what Christ calls us to be/live.

Semi-tortured
Jan 5th 2009, 09:11 AM
I think a pre-nup is fine. It is not a seed of doubt being planted. It does not mean you don't trust the person. You have to be prudent. I can trust a person 100% and it doesn't guarantee they will always be the person I married. Things can happen that change people that you couldn't know. Lets say I'm a woman and my husband is the greatest man in the world. He makes a mistake behind the wheel and kills our son in a car wreck. He is so depressed he turns to alcohol and starts to beat me. This can happen and I know someone who it indeed did happen to. A pre-nup, if understood properly is fair. As faithful and truthful and devoted as you may be, you do not want to leave custody to your children or if you have a large estate, the keys to half of it out of your control to the whims of an imperfect human. That's what I am, that's what everyone on this board is.

Revinius
Jan 5th 2009, 01:14 PM
I think a pre-nup is fine. It is not a seed of doubt being planted. It does not mean you don't trust the person. You have to be prudent. I can trust a person 100% and it doesn't guarantee they will always be the person I married. Things can happen that change people that you couldn't know. Lets say I'm a woman and my husband is the greatest man in the world. He makes a mistake behind the wheel and kills our son in a car wreck. He is so depressed he turns to alcohol and starts to beat me. This can happen and I know someone who it indeed did happen to. A pre-nup, if understood properly is fair. As faithful and truthful and devoted as you may be, you do not want to leave custody to your children or if you have a large estate, the keys to half of it out of your control to the whims of an imperfect human. That's what I am, that's what everyone on this board is.

No offense, but i think that's a bad reason. The sovereign control of God in life lends me to attempt (sometimes unsuccessfully) to yield my circumstances to Him. I can say 'what if' all day, but in the end just giving it all up to Him is what brings about a peace. Marriage is giving yourself to the other party and dedicating your joint lives to God's purpose. A pre-nup taints this unity and makes it look like a farce. Marriage is God's gift and He made it right the first time.

Semi-tortured
Jan 6th 2009, 08:23 PM
No offense, but i think that's a bad reason. The sovereign control of God in life lends me to attempt (sometimes unsuccessfully) to yield my circumstances to Him. I can say 'what if' all day, but in the end just giving it all up to Him is what brings about a peace. Marriage is giving yourself to the other party and dedicating your joint lives to God's purpose. A pre-nup taints this unity and makes it look like a farce. Marriage is God's gift and He made it right the first time.


Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You are not protecting yourself from God's version of marriage with a prenup. A prenup is protection from man's additions to the marriage contract. Under God's marriage, if a person wants to leave He says to let them leave. Not leave, take half of all the belongings and the children.

It's because man added some rules that in some situations can be completely unfair to the marriage laws that make prenups necessary in extreme situations. There are people who are duped all the time into marrying a person who is after just their money.

There are quite a few Christians who believe marriage to be in the eyes of God and all the state stuff doesn't mean a thing.

Once again, you can put your faith in God and He will deliver, but to put everything on the line when it comes to immense assets or children by putting your faith in man, that is entirely different.

I swear, its as if people think that if you put God at the center of the marriage and pray and pray and pray that everything will work out in it. It's simply not the case because God gave us all free will, and you can only control YOUR free will.

I'm watching a very close friend who took abuse from his wife day after day and he prayed and refused to divorce her and now she is divorcing him and trying to take FULL custody of their daughter (and the daughter absolutely hates the mother) and the house and she is claiming she is unable to work due to the husband "not allowing her to." This guy has taken and done everything to keep the marriage together, but he can't keep another person from walking to the courthouse to file divorce papers.

Revinius
Jan 6th 2009, 11:29 PM
Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You are not protecting yourself from God's version of marriage with a prenup. A prenup is protection from man's additions to the marriage contract. Under God's marriage, if a person wants to leave He says to let them leave. Not leave, take half of all the belongings and the children.

It's because man added some rules that in some situations can be completely unfair to the marriage laws that make prenups necessary in extreme situations. There are people who are duped all the time into marrying a person who is after just their money.

There are quite a few Christians who believe marriage to be in the eyes of God and all the state stuff doesn't mean a thing.

Once again, you can put your faith in God and He will deliver, but to put everything on the line when it comes to immense assets or children by putting your faith in man, that is entirely different.

I swear, its as if people think that if you put God at the center of the marriage and pray and pray and pray that everything will work out in it. It's simply not the case because God gave us all free will, and you can only control YOUR free will.

I'm watching a very close friend who took abuse from his wife day after day and he prayed and refused to divorce her and now she is divorcing him and trying to take FULL custody of their daughter (and the daughter absolutely hates the mother) and the house and she is claiming she is unable to work due to the husband "not allowing her to." This guy has taken and done everything to keep the marriage together, but he can't keep another person from walking to the courthouse to file divorce papers.

I dont think that line of argument reflects the need for a pre-nup, but the need for marriage laws regarding divorce to be reviewed. I would have no objection to writing up a covenant between the man and wife stating they will abide by a biblical marriage and that divorce is only allowable in X situations and in such a situation the offending party gets nothing. That is Godly. What is not Godly is not giving all of yourself over to your spouse in faith under God.

As for 'free will'.... don't get me started. (I will be Calvinist about it and shut up) ;)

New Creation
Jan 8th 2009, 03:37 PM
She is 51 yrs., her children are raised, her husband is remarried, left her with the short end of the stick...

This is somewhat out of topic but found it very important to post concerning this my desire is not to condemn but out of true concern one for the Glory of God, and two for the sakes of their souls, they might not be aware of Jesus commandments. If her husband is still alive, she is not to remarry or she will clearly be violating the law of Christ:

"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:31-32).

"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."
(Matthew 19:3-9).

"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
(Mark 10:2-12).

"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."
(Luke 16:18).

And this is what Paul said, repeating what the Lord Jesus said:

"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."
(1 Corinthians 7:10-11).