PDA

View Full Version : blasphemy against the holy spirit?



A820djd
Nov 1st 2007, 08:16 PM
What does this exactly mean?

jeffreys
Nov 1st 2007, 09:03 PM
I've heard lots of suggestions/answers, but I'd really like to know too!

nightmare
Nov 1st 2007, 09:04 PM
What does this exactly mean?
during the end time many will be called to speak out against the antichrist if you refuse this is blasmphemy of the holy spirit but you should know those who speak against the anti christ are elects and they will not commit this sin translate this to the hebrew and its much easier to understand hope this helps

A820djd
Nov 1st 2007, 09:06 PM
So basically if Christians have the kahoonas to say "Hey you're not Jesus!" are the ones that are the "elect" so to speak. And the ones who are kept quiet are the ones who are the ones commiting the blasphemy?

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2007, 09:12 PM
during the end time many will be called to speak out against the antichrist if you refuse this is blasmphemy of the holy spirit but you should know those who speak against the anti christ are elects and they will not commit this sin translate this to the hebrew and its much easier to understand hope this helps

Er, chapter and verse for this, please?

Zorgblar
Nov 2nd 2007, 12:21 AM
What does this exactly mean?
From what I have heard blasphemy against the holy spirit is hearing the word of god and chooseing not to accept it or believe god is real.

walked
Nov 2nd 2007, 12:38 AM
What does this exactly mean?
Hi Scott,
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is speaking against the Holy Spirit of God....some pharisees seeing Jesus preform miracles of casting out demons, they charge Christ that He was casting out demons by using the spirit of baal/the devil/satan to cast out these demons.
(I think this account in scripture is in all four gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke and John so, its not hard to find it)
By the Pharisees doing this they were calling Gods Holy Spirit which is what impowered Christ to cast out demons, they were saying the Spirit Christ had is the Spirit of baal/satan/the devil....that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't as most believe the unpardonable sin, it is a great sin but, it is a sin that can lead one to the unpardonable sin, which is to deny Christ Jesus is the way the truth and the life and our only way to be restored/pardoned to God, denying this (Jesus is Christ) leaves you with no other way to be restored/pardoned so its called the unpardonable sin....since by not believing He is the way, by default you leave yourself with no other way no other pardon, not to say that you cant be forgiven if you turn and do believe Jesus is the Christ, just that you cant be pardoned and enter heaven with out believing on Him (Him your pardon).
There is no sin that wont/cant be forgiven through Him!

God bless you.

Soj
Nov 2nd 2007, 12:55 AM
Blasphemy against the holy spirit is speaking against the Holy Spirit of God....some pharisees seeing Jesus preform miracles of casting out demons, charges Christ that He was casting out demons by the spirit of baal/the devil/satan by doing that they were calling Gods Holy Spirit which is what impowered Christ to cast out demons, they were saying the Spirit Christ had is the Spirit of baal/satan/the devil.I concur with the above.

This specific sin can only be committed when Jesus Christ is literally on this earth, those pharisees were guilty back then when they pointed the finger at him and claimed he had the spirit of Satan, and there will be some who commit this sin again when Jesus comes back the second time to rule and reign on earth. Until that time though no-one is in danger of committing the sin spoken about in Matt 12!

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

walked
Nov 2nd 2007, 01:02 AM
I concur with the above.

This specific sin can only be committed when Jesus Christ is literally on this earth, those pharisees were guilty back then when they pointed the finger at him and claimed he had the spirit of Satan, and there will be some who commit this sin again when Jesus comes back the second time to rule and reign on earth. Until that time though no-one is in danger of committing the sin spoken about in Matt 12!

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Where two or three of you gather in my name there I am also...the same Spirit that Christ operated miracles under while He walked on earth is the same Spirit sent to man after His going back to His throne in the heavens and that same Spirit can and does dwells in some of us now today, yesterday and tomorrow.

So, one can still speak against/blasphemy against the Holy Spirit today too.

God bless you.

Serve-N-Protect
Nov 2nd 2007, 01:12 AM
Here is a scenario that I think would be Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

You just died, and you are immediately brought to a spot in heaven standing before Christ. He shows you the full truth of what eternity in Heaven is really going to be like and you say "PFFT! forget it!"

Rand47
Nov 2nd 2007, 01:16 AM
Hi Scott,
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is speaking against the Holy Spirit of God....some pharisees seeing Jesus preform miracles of casting out demons, they charge Christ that He was casting out demons by using the spirit of baal/the devil/satan to cast out these demons.
(I think this account in scripture is in all four gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke and John so, its not hard to find it)
By the Pharisees doing this they were calling Gods Holy Spirit which is what impowered Christ to cast out demons, they were saying the Spirit Christ had is the Spirit of baal/satan/the devil....that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't as most believe the unpardonable sin, it is a great sin but, it is a sin that can lead one to the unpardonable sin, which is to deny Christ Jesus is the way the truth and the life and our only way to be restored to God, denying this (Jesus is Christ) leaves you with no other way to be restored so its called the unpardonable sin....since by not believing He is the way, by default you leave yourself with no other way, not to say that you cant be forgiven if you turn and do believe Jesus is the Christ, just that you cant be pardoned and enter heaven with out believing on Him.
There is no sin that wont/cant be forgiven through Him!

God bless you.

Walked, thank you for this. Far too often passages like Luke 12:8-10 and Mark 3:28-29 are taken out of context, then conflated with other unrelated text to create something that "isn't there" and that is a stumbling block for new believers. I've come to believe that the scripture shouldn't be read at all if it cannot be read in "at least" two chapter increments, and better yet, whole books. None of them are so long as to create a problem for someone who really thinks it is the Word of God.

The passage in Luke is contemplating a broad subject, introduced in Luke 11:14-15. That verse / happening sets the stage of understanding for what is said in Chapter 12.

I must admit to being really frustrated by convoluted explanations of texts like this, when the simple understanding is so readily accessible, as in your post. Thanks again.

walked
Nov 2nd 2007, 01:22 AM
Walked, thank you for this. Far too often passages like Luke 12:8-10 and Mark 3:28-29 are taken out of context, then conflated with other unrelated text to create something that "isn't there" and that is a stumbling block for new believers. I've come to believe that the scripture shouldn't be read at all if it cannot be read in "at least" two chapter increments, and better yet, whole books. None of them are so long as to create a problem for someone who really thinks it is the Word of God.

The passage in Luke is contemplating a broad subject, introduced in Luke 11:14-15. That verse / happening sets the stage of understanding for what is said in Chapter 12.

I must admit to being really frustrated by convoluted explanations of texts like this, when the simple understanding is so readily accessible, as in your post. Thanks again.
Amen!..I believe in even taking it further sometimes and go past two chapters, like taking context from the message in the whole book or letter and then if it still doesn't jive then take it to the context of entire message of the whole bible, all of the books n letters to find the meaning through the context of the message and not individual verses or word combos.

God bless you.

Soj
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:04 AM
Where two or three of you gather in my name there I am also...Interesting you should quote that verse, would you say that if there are NOT two or three gathered together in Christ's name today and you were just alone that the Spirit of Christ would NOT be present?


...the same Spirit that Christ operated miracles under while He walked on earth is the same Spirit sent to man after His going back to His throne in the heavens and that same Spirit can and does dwells in some of us now today, yesterday and tomorrow.

So, one can still speak against/blasphemy against the Holy Spirit today too.I still hold to the belief that you can't commit the sin of Matt 12 unless Jesus Christ is literally here on the earth and you point at Him and claim he has the spirit of Satan. That's what those pharisees did, they weren't pointing at any of the disciples they were pointing at the Lord of glory. When this sin is committed during the millennium it will be unpardonable and those who do it will go straight to hell.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

The doctrinal application of the verses in Matt 12 and Mark 3 are for the kingdom of heaven when God brings it down to earth and rules and reigns, they are not applicable during the times of the gentiles or church age we are living in, as the kingdom of heaven's arrival was postponed when Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah.

beachbum53
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:17 AM
when the Jewish leaders saw first hand the miracles and still refused to believe, God chose to go to the people of other nations. Their hearts were 'calloused' as to not even try to believe Jesus was the son of God.

Today one might sense God's prodding or see an actual miracle [[maybe healing]] and they are so 'adamant' [] that they refuse to even consider that it is God's works'.

Does anyone think after a time people's hearts are permanently hardened by God, not sure......

Then I would think though that because 'man' doesn't ask for forgiveness due to 'his' unbelief, he is causing the unforgiven sin, not because of God's unwillingness to forgive.

comments on this passage, is it just to show how evil man can be or has God given up on them

Romans 1


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [I]it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God or the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, 1men with 1men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

have more questions than answers now :rolleyes:

Slug1
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:20 AM
Here is a scenario that I think would be Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

You just died, and you are immediately brought to a spot in heaven standing before Christ. He shows you the full truth of what eternity in Heaven is really going to be like and you say "PFFT! forget it!"Dude, I gotta ask... from which scripture in the Bible do you base this on? Just the scripture so it can speak for itself with no interpretation ;)

ravi4u2
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:37 AM
A great multitude followed Jesus and He healed them all. Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” To this Jesus replied, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

The multitude seeing all the miracles Jesus was doing, had faith stirred in their heart by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was truly the expected Messiah (the Son of David or the King who would come from the line of David). When the Pharisees hear this, they try to mislead the people that Jesus is not the Son of David, but that he is demon possessed.

So, in essence the Pharisees were speaking against the revelation of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the people. This Jesus says is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which will not be forgiven.

Serve-N-Protect
Nov 2nd 2007, 03:02 AM
Dude, I gotta ask... from which scripture in the Bible do you base this on? Just the scripture so it can speak for itself with no interpretation ;)

On this one there is no scripture verse. It is just a scenario. IMO it would be an unforgivable sin to be shown the truth about heaven and reject it. Would it not? Is that not what Satan did?

What do you think heaven going to be like slug? Sure there are plenty of verses that suggest what it might be like, but there is plenty not said IMO.

For it is better not to have an expectation of it, and just learn to accept and recognize the presence of Christ and his Holy Spirit in my day first. If one cannot do that, how do you suppose one will receive the fullness of the truth about what heaven is really like when that day comes?

Wintermute
Nov 2nd 2007, 03:03 AM
Blasphemy
Mark 2:7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

Mark 14:61-64 But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?" And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Matthew 26:63-65 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! Blasphemy basically entails taking the attributes of God for yourself. God only can forgive sins; so if you as a man, and not God, say you can forgive sins, it's blasphemy.

So lets look at some examples of what the Holy Spirit does.

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Luke 12:10-12 And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."Take a look at these verses now, thinking along the lines of blasphemy to the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

1 Samuel 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.

Psalms 81:11-12 "But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels.

Isaiah 63:10-11 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,

Acts 7:51-55 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it." When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Hebrews 4:7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."The work of the Holy Spirit I believe is best summed up in what we call the conscience. The Spirit is involved with leading us to conversion, teaching righteousness, etc. Blasphemy basically means I take the attributes of God for myself. So if I make my own conscience, listen to my own voice and don't crucify that old man of sin (Romans 6:6), and grieve the Holy Spirit, I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit. There is no forgiveness because I've rejected forgiveness, refused to come to Christ. If I don't avail myself of and in fact refuse the salvation Heaven is ready to pour out, what can be done? It cannot be forgiven.

walked
Nov 2nd 2007, 03:53 AM
Interesting you should quote that verse, would you say that if there are NOT two or three gathered together in Christ's name today and you were just alone that the Spirit of Christ would NOT be present?

I still hold to the belief that you can't commit the sin of Matt 12 unless Jesus Christ is literally here on the earth and you point at Him and claim he has the spirit of Satan. That's what those pharisees did, they weren't pointing at any of the disciples they were pointing at the Lord of glory. When this sin is committed during the millennium it will be unpardonable and those who do it will go straight to hell.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

The doctrinal application of the verses in Matt 12 and Mark 3 are for the kingdom of heaven when God brings it down to earth and rules and reigns, they are not applicable during the times of the gentiles or church age we are living in, as the kingdom of heaven's arrival was postponed when Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah.

Thats a good question about where two or three others gather in His name.
I am sure His Holy Spirit is in, around and upon me even when I am alone/with out two or three others gathered with me in His name but, I am sure Christ presence isn't were I stand alone because He has a body and we as obedient individuals are members of His body (the hand isn't the body it is only the body when it is connected to the rest of the body) I am part of the body of Christ with out the connection with the other parts of the body, Christ isn't there but, His Holy Spirit is there in, around and upon me but, His person isn't.

Bick
Nov 2nd 2007, 04:43 AM
What does this exactly mean?

MY COMMENTS:

First of all, read all the account in the Scriptures. The words are clear and logical.

Matt. 12:31,32, NIV: "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come."

In the earlier verses Jesus had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. To say that Jesus cast out the demons by Beelzebub, was blasphemy, i.e. speaking against the Holy Spirit; or attributing to the prince of demons what was done by the Holy Spirit.

Bick

Wintermute
Nov 2nd 2007, 05:00 AM
Matt. 12:31,32, NIV: "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come."

In the earlier verses Jesus had cast out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. To say that Jesus cast out the demons by Beelzebub, was blasphemy, i.e. speaking against the Holy Spirit; or attributing to the prince of demons what was done by the Holy Spirit.There is something not logical about this statement. Their speaking against Christ, according to Christ Himself will be forgiven based on the verse just stated. In other words, calling Christ as Beelzebub, though not ok, is something that Christ will forgive and therefore is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit as that action will rather not be forgiven. The problem is that they were saying these things because they were in the process of grieving the Holy Spirit. The Spirit was testifying of the divinity of Christ. But, because they were so stiff-necked against their conscience, they were going to the point of seeing black as white and white as black.

nightmare
Nov 2nd 2007, 05:50 AM
What does this exactly mean?
The problem is your taking one verse and trying to get a direct answer from it. This does not always work before you will understand this you must understand things from the beginning its like crawling before walking

Soj
Nov 2nd 2007, 10:53 AM
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The unpardonable sin, which is such a mystery to many, is defined in the above verse as "speaking", which rules out unbelief, suicide, murder, or divorce as being the great transgression!

Also, the idea that this sin represents the final rejection of the Holy Spirit in His convicting work is a deviation from the truth, for many reject His work without speaking anything, and when they do speak they do not speak against the Holy Spirit, and even if they do, some have been saved later!

The unpardonable sin is defined best in Mark 3:30:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

The sin is "saying" that Jesus Christ has an unclean spirit in him. Yet the only time it is applicable is when Jesus is literally on this earth, and He'll be here again very soon so hold your tongue pilgrim!!

poorinspirit
Nov 4th 2007, 12:54 PM
Hi Soj NZ,


Quote:
Originally Posted by walked
Where two or three of you gather in my name there I am also...

Interesting you should quote that verse, would you say that if there are NOT two or three gathered together in Christ's name today and you were just alone that the Spirit of Christ would NOT be present?

Jesus was speaking in that verse. In the Greek use of the word midst, you will find that Jesus was referring to His role as the ONLY mediator between God and man as the use of the word "midst" means inbetween.... not among them.

1 Timothy 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

People using errant bible versions or not discerning the scriptures when hymnals addresses the Holy Spirit in prayer or worship are stepping outside the will of God. Below is the correct version ( KJV) of Romans 8:26,27.

Romans 8: 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Now note that we intercede for saints when we pray for them, but that does not make us the mediators. So neither does that make the Holy Spirit the mediator to be prayed to. If you note in verse 26 that the Holy Spirit intercedes with groanings not uttered thus indicating no sound at all. Then we would wonder how the Holy Spirit intercedes and thus we read on to verse 27. The "he" is Jesus as the he is being used that searcheth the hearts, it is the same he that knoweth the mind of the Spirit, which then leads to the same he that intercedes for the saints according to the will of God thus being specific about that role as Christ is the only mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Other errant version would replace the "he" with the Spirit and thus does not explain how the Spirit intercedes with groans not uttered and the use of the Spirit in place of the pronoun "he" is not proper grammar.

People do not use the King James Bible to discern errors of the small descrepancies in the other versions, but in truth, the King James Version is the only one tranlsated from the "Received Text" or the "Textus Receptus" for us to discern the times we live in as apostasy abounds. Other translations were from the Alexandria files and they included gnostics writings.

The role of the Holy Ghost has been clearly lined out in the KJV as the Divine Witness, meaning he will not bear witness of himself so he may glorify Jesus Christ. That is what a true witness does.

John 7: 18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. 19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

That verse being pertaining to the witness of men in regards to Jesus Christ, we can see the role of the Holy Ghost as far as witnessing goes below.

John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

As much as we are led by the Spirit, it is in regards to the Good Shepherd as Jesus is leading us through the Spirit within us. If we are led by the Holy Spirit as His role is to testify and glorify Jesus Christ, believers would not put the Holy Spirit in the spotlight nor become their focus in prayer nor worship since we must worship God IN Spirit and In truth, our eyes are lifted up to Heaven where Christ has ascended. All the words of the Holy Spirit are from Jesus as stated above and He shall bring into remebrance all things taught unto us from Jesus.

John 14: 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

And as all things are from Jesus from which the Holy Spirit takes and show them unto us, so are the fruits of the Spirit and as well as the gifts of the Spirit are from Jesus as Jesus is going to finish His Work in us in His day.

Philippians 1: 6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

So as the Spirit speaks, He does so expressly,...

1 Timothy 4: 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Which leads to people misusing the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit verse out of context to shut up those when they point out their errors in looking for the Holy Spirit in the worship place. This is departing from the faith as well as hypocrisey because of calling for the Holy Spirit to come or to fall on them when He is in them and thus will never leave them.

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

They forget the line of discernment given when they place the Holy Spirit out there in the world with other spirits.

1 John 3: 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us....
1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

It is written how we shall know the Holy Spirit and that is by Him being in us.

John 14: 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Believers that look to signs from the Holy Spirit are committing spiritual adultery as we have received the promise by faith. Signs are for unbelievers. Manifestations of the Spirit are given to profit the body withal in the knowledge of Jesus so that our love may abound yet more and more; not to steal the spotlight from Jesus to signs and wonders by the visitations of what they claim to be the Holy Spirit. As stated above, the world receive Him not, because it seeth Him not, thus looking to signs and wonders that glorifies these visitations are after the rudiment of the world in how they seek after other spirits per examples, mediums calling up ghosts or the American Indians in calling up the great spirit... again and again. This is the reason why the line of discernment was given to test the spirits in according to our faith that the Holy Spirit is in us.. not to be felt in the worship place for one cannot get any closer to God that way when He is in us, thus we are given the commandment on how & when the Holy Spirit will be given.

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Thus the need to rest in Jesus, instead of going hungering after more of God or more of the Spirit.

John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

We are a new creature in Christ and thus new wineskin filled with new wine and thus sealed as His as in preserved and SAVED.

2 Corinthians 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Matthew 9: 17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Those that are born in the Spirit can rest in Jesus' promise without needing signs to know they have Him in us.

John 3: 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Galatians 3: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

But of course, those in error would throw that speaking against the Holy Spirit verse out so no one will rain on their parade in their worship service for they want the sensational and the supernatural, broadening the way by putting the Holy Spirit in the spotlight with Jesus, but the Holy Spirit cannot fulfill His role to not speak of himself in order to glorify Jesus Christ thus believers are no longer being led by the Spirit within, but opening themselves up to seducing spirits that would steal the spotlight in the worship service. Errant bible versions that do not testify of Jesus as real scriptures says they are doing should be discounted in favor of the King James Bible:

John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men.

How are we to be judged?

John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

How is God glorified?

John 13: 31Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

John 17: 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Why does it have to be that Way? Because there are other spirits in the world and thus why all invitations points to Jesus as well as warnings about not allowing anything come between us and Jesus if we are to have a relationship with Our Good Shepherd so He will not say, I know ye not, depart from me ye that work iniquity.

Philippians 2: 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Thus to be true worshippers as in worshipping God IN Spirit and In truth, and to be faithful witnesses of Jesus Whom is the Good News to man....

John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

1 Corinthians 2: 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Anyway, just expounding on how these days, wayward believers would use that verse of blaspheming the Holy Spirit to stop those from correcting their way of worship when it goes after the rudiment of the world and not after Christ. The Holy Spirit is God, but they are ignoring what the indwelling Holy Spirit is leading them to do and that is to honor the Son, and with errant bible versions and unscriptural hymnals that direct worship towards the Holy Spirit or addresses the Holy Spirit, those caught up in the experience will not hear His Words for discernment in the King James version. The moment they stop honoring the Son, they are no longer honoring the Father. That is the same as denying the Son when they stop honoring the Son.

1 John 2: 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Psalm 19: 14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

dan
Nov 5th 2007, 02:47 AM
...LK 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

And...

JN 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
JN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
JN 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
JN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

With these two verses He told you that the Apostles were given the Spirit and we should treat the things coming from the mouths of the Apostles as if it were Jesus speaking. Therefore, everything in the Bible that comes after Jesus' Ascension is of the Holy Spirit. To treat it as if it were otherwise would be blasphemy IMO.

poorinspirit
Nov 5th 2007, 03:38 AM
...LK 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

And...

JN 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
JN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
JN 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
JN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

With these two verses He told you that the Apostles were given the Spirit and we should treat the things coming from the mouths of the Apostles as if it were Jesus speaking. Therefore, everything in the Bible that comes after Jesus' Ascension is of the Holy Spirit. To treat it as if it were otherwise would be blasphemy IMO.

Hi dan,

I believe I was using scriptures correctly, and I believe I plainly stated that the Holy Spirit speaks, but in regards to Jesus. The Holy Spirit speaketh, but the words He speaks are not His own but whatever He hears, that He speaks as these words would be coming from Jesus. This would lead to the verse in 1 Timothy 4: 1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times..." That is how I read John 16:13-14 with that. The Holy Spirit is also mentioned as bringing into remembrance all things that Jesus taught unto us in John 14:26. So I still stand by what I have shared plainly by scriptures in how the Holy Spirit speaks... it is in regards to Jesus and they are not his own words, but the words of Jesus.

I am reading that plainly even in the verses you had quoted.

ikester7579
Nov 5th 2007, 09:13 AM
Hi Scott,
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is speaking against the Holy Spirit of God....some pharisees seeing Jesus preform miracles of casting out demons, they charge Christ that He was casting out demons by using the spirit of baal/the devil/satan to cast out these demons.
(I think this account in scripture is in all four gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke and John so, its not hard to find it)
By the Pharisees doing this they were calling Gods Holy Spirit which is what impowered Christ to cast out demons, they were saying the Spirit Christ had is the Spirit of baal/satan/the devil....that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't as most believe the unpardonable sin, it is a great sin but, it is a sin that can lead one to the unpardonable sin, which is to deny Christ Jesus is the way the truth and the life and our only way to be restored/pardoned to God, denying this (Jesus is Christ) leaves you with no other way to be restored/pardoned so its called the unpardonable sin....since by not believing He is the way, by default you leave yourself with no other way no other pardon, not to say that you cant be forgiven if you turn and do believe Jesus is the Christ, just that you cant be pardoned and enter heaven with out believing on Him (Him your pardon).
There is no sin that wont/cant be forgiven through Him!

God bless you.
With all due respect...
I would have to disagree here. I have studied this intensely and thought the way you do at one time. But then as I got really deep into the osas vs no-osas debate, the truth about the unforgiven sin, plus more about salvation was revealed.

1) Christ shed His blood once. So the forgiveness of all sin is only a one time deal. This is because "all" sin has to be forgiven in order to be pure to enter into the new covenant with Christ.

2) It is grace that is extended to us after we are in the covenant. Not the blood. Blood was already used once.

3) Christ is not an on going sacrifice. His blood is not to be shed for our every sin after we are in the covenant. If His blood has to be shed again, it means we fall out of the covenant every time we sin. And that is not true. Grace takes care of that.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Anytime Christ has to shed blood again, it means that His blood was not perfect. And grace does not abound over sin. That is not true either.

1) rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Here the example of grace abounding over sin. If the blood is needed for sin, then why is there grace? So grace is what we get after the blood makes us pure enough to enter the covenant. Then it's grace from that point forward.

2) rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here we see that grace also reigns over death unto eternal life. Here again this shows that the blood of Christ is shed only once for this, then it is grace.

3) rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

And grace also replaces the law. We still obey the law, but grace supersedes it for forgiveness.

Are we to use grace to sin, and justify it?

rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Does the unpardonable sin apply to those who are unsaved sinners? No, and here is why:

In order for Christ's shed blood to be able to forgive all sin, there can be nothing that can stand in the way of it being able to do this. So if you blaspheme the Holy ghost while not saved, it does not apply. Why? Because that would make sin more powerful than the shed blood of Christ.

So this blaspheme sin applies to those who are saved. Why?

jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The knowledge of sin makes it a sin. So the sin is forfeited for the very reason you do not know what it is. Still want to know how to? I don't.

And why would it never apply to the unsaved sinner? It is because none of the laws, grace, or covenant applies to the unsaved. So how can a person be condemned anymore than he already is? Because an unsaved sinner is already going to hell. Does he go to a hotter hell if he blasphemes?

And how can salvation be denied before it is given as a choice? That would be predestination. It would mean that a unsaved sinner could predestined themselves for hell with no choice. If there is one sin that is unforgivable and more powerful than the shed blood of Christ for the unsaved sinner. Then the blood itself is not perfect to be able to save all those who would want it.

So it has to apply to the saved "only".

poorinspirit
Nov 5th 2007, 11:38 AM
Hi ikester 7579,

Thanks for sharing, but some key points to address.


Does the unpardonable sin apply to those who are unsaved sinners? No, and here is why:

In order for Christ's shed blood to be able to forgive all sin, there can be nothing that can stand in the way of it being able to do this. So if you blaspheme the Holy ghost while not saved, it does not apply. Why? Because that would make sin more powerful than the shed blood of Christ.

But strange as it might be, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, was He not? Were they not the ones accusing Jesus of casting out devils by the devil? They were not saved yet, and certainly, Jesus has not ascended yet either.


And why would it never apply to the unsaved sinner? It is because none of the laws, grace, or covenant applies to the unsaved. So how can a person be condemned anymore than he already is? Because an unsaved sinner is already going to hell. Does he go to a hotter hell if he blasphemes?

No, but it goes to show why the unsaved sinner is going to hell.

John 3: 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The fact that those few Pharisees that commited the unpardonable sin goes to show that they were never going to accept Jesus nor come to Him as their Messiah.


And how can salvation be denied before it is given as a choice? That would be predestination. It would mean that a unsaved sinner could predestined themselves for hell with no choice. If there is one sin that is unforgivable and more powerful than the shed blood of Christ for the unsaved sinner. Then the blood itself is not perfect to be able to save all those who would want it.

The key words are those who want it. Would God not know? Let's look at God being God in light of the commandment given below.

Matthew 28: 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And thus by the commandment above given to the disciples and everybody else, we read this in Acts.

Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Now we can take a step back and say, "Isn't God leading them not to obey His commandment? Why would He do that?" So we read on.

Acts 16: 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

This would tie in with your statement about all those that want the Good News, right? God would know. This is significant about God because as I am sure you have heard this from unbelievers, they cannot believe that some child in some far distant African jungle that never heard of Christ is going to hell and thus they would not believe in God that would do that to His creation for He would not be perceived as the God of love, but of course, we just found out that He is and He is the reqarder of all those that seek Him as promised.

Matthew 7: 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


So it has to apply to the saved "only".

Matthew 12: 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I find it pointed that Jesus mentioned in this world and neither in the world to come. As far as Heaven goes, that would lead to the redeemed can never sin again and thus never be seperated from God again.

Revelations 3: 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This being given to the churches before the rapture event as I am led to believe as it is given to the church in Sardis for correction, this would suggest no more sin and thus no more being seperated from God for we would have been made perfect.

Thus back to "but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come", I would believe that to be the sin that can only be committed in this world when Christ Jesus was here physically on the earth or the world to come when Christ Jesus rules in the 1000 years reign.

Of course, I would think there is one more sin that will not be forgiven and that is the one during the great tribulation where receiving the mark is damnation to the lake of fire; no ifs, ands, nor buts about it.

Revelation 19: 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So can the saved commit this unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit? Since Jesus alluded to Him being on the earth for that to happen, I would say for now no. Jesus is Our Good Shepherd.

Matthew 6: And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

And as such, He would not lead His sheep to commit the unpardonable sin because of the will of the Father.

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Thus we have this hope in Him.

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Of course, there will be many at the time of the rapture that will be left behind because they were not ready. They did not heed His sayings nor continued in their relationship with Him based on trust, but resorted to dead works that deny Him or sowed to the flesh in reaping corruption, but Jesus spoke of those left behind that believed in His name but worked iniquity:

John 10: 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Hebrews 12 speaks of how God chastens every child received so as to enter into the Kingdom. The loyal brother to the prodigal son was told by the father that all that He has was his, thus indicative that it was not so with the prodigal son since he squandered his inheritance with wild living, but he was still son. We look to 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 in how we are to be careful in building on that faith in our relationship with Jesus as any that defile the temple of God which we are as the Holy Spirit is in us, God will destroy that emple and yet that was preceeding the verses about all works destroyed in the fire, the believer shall suffer loss but be saved so as through fire which leads to the last verse as belonging to Christ and thus to Philippians 1:6-11 about how Jesus shall finish His work in us in His day which is to His glory.

Matthew 7:13-27 shows how false prophets can lead believers astray, not the elect, but the believers because they did not heed His sayings in building on the rock, but this goes to show how those that did not hear His voice in following Him, but followed a stranger's voice, will be regathered and then they will hear His voice to be one fold and one shepherd since it is the will of the Father that Jesus loses nothing, but raise them up in the last day.

Sorry for expounding, but I was anticipating your follow up questions when addressing your key points. Hope you don't mind. Just sharing the faith we have in Jesus that our love may abound yet more and more in the knowledge of Him.

ikester7579
Nov 6th 2007, 05:14 AM
Hi ikester 7579,
Thanks for sharing, but some key points to address.

But strange as it might be, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, was He not? Were they not the ones accusing Jesus of casting out devils by the devil? They were not saved yet, and certainly, Jesus has not ascended yet either.

Was there anyone saved at that point? Nope. So Christ had not gone to the cross, nor was He ascended. So no one was in the new covenant which means He could have said this to anyone and it would not have made a difference as to who because the old covenant was still in effect, correct?


No, but it goes to show why the unsaved sinner is going to hell.

Ever heard the term: Condemned already?
jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So does the unsaved sinner become double condemned?

jn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How can Christ save a world that can predestine itself to hell?


The fact that those few Pharisees that commited the unpardonable sin goes to show that they were never going to accept Jesus nor come to Him as their Messiah.

lk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

When was the Holy Ghost left here for us? When Christ ascended correct? So how can the pharisees condemn what did not exist here on earth yet?

Also, the Holy spirit and Holy Ghost are not the same thing. One is the spirit of God from the old covenant. The other is from Christ because the spirit had to change because of the new covenant.

This is why it is said that Christ gave up the Ghost when He died on the cross.


The key words are those who want it. Would God not know? Let's look at God being God in light of the commandment given below.

Matthew 28: 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

If God gives someone up to a reprobate mind, He would then know. But God is not supposed to judge us until we get to heaven, correct? So if He allows us to be eternally condemned because He knows. Then we are being judged right here on earth. The judgement of the sinner is therefore not needed because his destination would be predetermined by one sin.


And thus by the commandment above given to the disciples and everybody else, we read this in Acts.

Acts 16: 6Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Now we can take a step back and say, "Isn't God leading them not to obey His commandment? Why would He do that?" So we read on.

Acts 16: 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

This would tie in with your statement about all those that want the Good News, right? God would know. This is significant about God because as I am sure you have heard this from unbelievers, they cannot believe that some child in some far distant African jungle that never heard of Christ is going to hell and thus they would not believe in God that would do that to His creation for He would not be perceived as the God of love, but of course, we just found out that He is and He is the reqarder of all those that seek Him as promised.

Matthew 7: 6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

7 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Will God be condemning those who never heard of Him? And if they never heard, then they do not know what sin is, correct? So instead of going against the word of spreading good news, God was protecting them from the knowledge of sin so that they could not be condemn for it.


Matthew 12: 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

I find it pointed that Jesus mentioned in this world and neither in the world to come. As far as Heaven goes, that would lead to the redeemed can never sin again and thus never be seperated from God again.

Salvation is a promise. If we received the eternal meaning of it here on earth. We would live forever. This is why Christ does not become the bridegroom until we get to heaven. And this is why we are stilled judged. If we are eternally secure, would not it be a waste of time to judge us? That's like going to court with a payed off jury. There can only be one out come, one judgement. Also a fixed jury works the same way. Does salvation fix the judgement where some can sin and go to heaven, while others are condemned unto hell for the same thing?

This very thing is why the unsaved sinner calls us hypocrites. They see us as just a bad sinner as they are, but yet we claim to be forgiven. This is why the word says this about using salvation as liberty to sin:

1cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Why are we seen as hypocrites in the eyes of the unsaved?

gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Notice the term: "false brethren". A sinner cannot achieve this because he does not know enough about God or the word, and would be exposed. But, a person who has fallen away, but knew God at one time could pass off as something he is not.


Revelations 3: 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This being given to the churches before the rapture event as I am led to believe as it is given to the church in Sardis for correction, this would suggest no more sin and thus no more being seperated from God for we would have been made perfect.

Be made perfect means would could also achieve eternal life right here on earth. But as long as we are in these bodies of corruptible flesh, there will always be one part of us that has to die before we can receive eternal life.


Thus back to "but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come", I would believe that to be the sin that can only be committed in this world when Christ Jesus was here physically on the earth or the world to come when Christ Jesus rules in the 1000 years reign.

But, the wording makes it clear that either world, correct? Which means there are those who are saved that will get the judgement unto eternal damnation because they committed this sin for what ever reason. To worlds mentioned means that it applies to both. Ignoring this fact that the word actually says this is ignoring the truth of God to make a doctrine of man's interpretation for truth worth more than what is written.

Does it or does it not say both worlds?


Of course, I would think there is one more sin that will not be forgiven and that is the one during the great tribulation where receiving the mark is damnation to the lake of fire; no ifs, ands, nor buts about it.

The tribulation will be a different time where Satan will rule. So it is not considered a choice because the Holy Ghost, and Holy Spirit will be gone. Those caught here during that time will find it much harder to make the right choice. And most will have to die for it as well.


Revelation 19: 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So can the saved commit this unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit? Since Jesus alluded to Him being on the earth for that to happen, I would say for now no. Jesus is Our Good Shepherd.

Jesus has the Holy Ghost, and is why this happened when He died.

mk 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

mk 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

lk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

jn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Then we have the reason of the Holy Spirit:

gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

ex 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

ex 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
etc...



Matthew 6: And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

And as such, He would not lead His sheep to commit the unpardonable sin because of the will of the Father.

John 6: 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If Christ is able to keep us from doing one sin, why not the rest as well? Is His salvation so weak that it can only keep us from committing one sin? I think not. We still sin even though we are saved, But we are supposed to repent (abstain) from them as best we can to "try" and move on to perfection.


Thus we have this hope in Him.

1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Purification is not needed if salvation were secure.

Of course, there will be many at the time of the rapture that will be left behind because they were not ready. They did not heed His sayings nor continued in their relationship with Him based on trust, but resorted to dead works that deny Him or sowed to the flesh in reaping corruption, but Jesus spoke of those left behind that believed in His name but worked iniquity:

What I have in red is you admitting that a person has the choice not to continue in their relationship with Christ. Am I reading that right, or did you make a mistake?


John 10: 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This is speaking of those who where in the old covenant being transformed into the new covenant.


Hebrews 12 speaks of how God chastens every child received so as to enter into the Kingdom. The loyal brother to the prodigal son was told by the father that all that He has was his, thus indicative that it was not so with the prodigal son since he squandered his inheritance with wild living, but he was still son. We look to 1 Corinthians 3:10-23 in how we are to be careful in building on that faith in our relationship with Jesus as any that defile the temple of God which we are as the Holy Spirit is in us, God will destroy that emple and yet that was preceeding the verses about all works destroyed in the fire, the believer shall suffer loss but be saved so as through fire which leads to the last verse as belonging to Christ and thus to Philippians 1:6-11 about how Jesus shall finish His work in us in His day which is to His glory.

If salvation is secure, why is there suffering of sin that Christ has to bear?

rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

2cor 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

Secure salvation should not lead to more suffering of sin for Christ correct? So is this suffering done for nothing?


Matthew 7:13-27 shows how false prophets can lead believers astray, not the elect, but the believers because they did not heed His sayings in building on the rock, but this goes to show how those that did not hear His voice in following Him, but followed a stranger's voice, will be regathered and then they will hear His voice to be one fold and one shepherd since it is the will of the Father that Jesus loses nothing, but raise them up in the last day.

But the elect are not saved either.

2tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Sorry for expounding, but I was anticipating your follow up questions when addressing your key points. Hope you don't mind. Just sharing the faith we have in Jesus that our love may abound yet more and more in the knowledge of Him.

I go beyond the norm of no-osas. This is because I dig deep into the word. But I thank you for doing this because you really made me dig deeper, and I found some new things I did not know before. Things that reconfirmed what I already believe on this subject. But My mind stays open because to close it on any one doctrine closes your heart to God guided truth.

Soj
Nov 6th 2007, 06:37 AM
lk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

When was the Holy Ghost left here for us? When Christ ascended correct? So how can the pharisees condemn what did not exist here on earth yet?The fact is that the Holy Ghost WAS inside Jesus Christ when those pharisees claimed he had an "unclean spirit" in Mark 3:30. Of course the Holy Ghost was here on earth, He just hadn't replaced Jesus as another Comforter. Please note that the Holy Ghost is called the "Spirit of truth" in the following verse:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


Also, the Holy spirit and Holy Ghost are not the same thing. One is the spirit of God from the old covenant. The other is from Christ because the spirit had to change because of the new covenant.Can you please post some Scripture to back this statement up?

I'll give you some to disprove it:

See John 15:26 above.

The Holy Ghost in the old covenant (old time):

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are used synonymously:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


This is why it is said that Christ gave up the Ghost when He died on the cross.The Scripture records that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob also "gave up the ghost" which meant in simple terms that they died and their spirit left them, returning up to God (Ecclesiastes 3:21; 12:7). Same applied to Christ, yet his soul went down to hell (Acts 2:27).

ikester7579
Nov 6th 2007, 09:39 AM
The fact is that the Holy Ghost WAS inside Jesus Christ when those pharisees claimed he had an "unclean spirit" in Mark 3:30. Of course the Holy Ghost was here on earth, He just hadn't replaced Jesus as another Comforter. Please note that the Holy Ghost is called the "Spirit of truth" in the following verse:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Spirit of truth, nice to know. thanks.


Can you please post some Scripture to back this statement up?

Already did.


I'll give you some to disprove it:

See John 15:26 above.

The Holy Ghost in the old covenant (old time):

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Ummm, notice the word "not". Also, 2 Peter is NT, not OT.


The Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are used synonymously:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Also notice that:

1) The Spirit of God pertains to God.
2) The Holy Ghost pertains to Jesus.

Which means there is still a difference. If you can find a verse that says that God has a ghost and spirit, then you could say they are the same.


The Scripture records that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob also "gave up the ghost" which meant in simple terms that they died and their spirit left them, returning up to God (Ecclesiastes 3:21; 12:7). Same applied to Christ, yet his soul went down to hell (Acts 2:27).

Yet they were not Father God, or the Son of God. So their Ghost does not have the power of either. For if you are implying that they are the same, then we should be praying to them as well. But I know that you know that is not right. Unless you are Catholic.

dan
Nov 6th 2007, 11:32 PM
Hi dan,

I believe I was using scriptures correctly, and I believe I plainly stated that the Holy Spirit speaks, but in regards to Jesus. The Holy Spirit speaketh, but the words He speaks are not His own but whatever He hears, that He speaks as these words would be coming from Jesus. This would lead to the verse in 1 Timothy 4: 1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times..." That is how I read John 16:13-14 with that. The Holy Spirit is also mentioned as bringing into remembrance all things that Jesus taught unto us in John 14:26. So I still stand by what I have shared plainly by scriptures in how the Holy Spirit speaks... it is in regards to Jesus and they are not his own words, but the words of Jesus.

I am reading that plainly even in the verses you had quoted.

...If it appeared that I aimed my verbal barrage at you. It was intended for the original question, which I should, probably, have quoted.
Time is not always conducive to my being thorough.

However, since you brought it up, not everything that the Holy Spirit says in the books after The Ascension is something that is a reiteration of a subject previously taught by Jesus. At least, not as covered in the NT. Although, I think that much, if not all of the material seems to be covered in the OT.

poorinspirit
Nov 6th 2007, 11:42 PM
Hi dan,


...If it appeared that I aimed my verbal barrage at you. It was intended for the original question, which I should, probably, have quoted.
Time is not always conducive to my being thorough.

I've done that too, and in this thread, I think with Soj NZ if I recall correctly. I understand that, so no need to apologize, but thanks anyway for the clarification.


However, since you brought it up, not everything that the Holy Spirit says in the books after The Ascension is something that is a reiteration of a subject previously taught by Jesus. Although, I think that much, if not all of the material seems to be covered in the OT.

I based that belief on these verses.

John 15: 26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

And if you include the OT, then in a way, the Spirit is entirely testifying of Jesus.

John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Just so you know where my belief came from.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 12:32 AM
I concur with the above.

This specific sin can only be committed when Jesus Christ is literally on this earth, those pharisees were guilty back then when they pointed the finger at him and claimed he had the spirit of Satan, and there will be some who commit this sin again when Jesus comes back the second time to rule and reign on earth. Until that time though no-one is in danger of committing the sin spoken about in Matt 12!

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


I also believe that this is exactly correct!

I also believe that the Pharisees knew without doubt who Jesus was, and who it was (the Holy Ghost) that cast out the demons.

There is no mention of this unforgivable sin, before Christ came in the flesh, and there is no mention of it in any of the epistles. If there was such a grave danger of anyone being able to commit this sin, after Christ in the flesh, our loving Heavenly Father would have made it well known.