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David Taylor
Nov 2nd 2007, 02:34 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

cwb
Nov 2nd 2007, 03:31 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

All the verses I read about the promise to Abrahan seem to me that God is speaking in future tense.

ForceMajuere
Nov 2nd 2007, 07:03 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

I'm going to make an 'assumption' that your question has less to do with whether or not Israel was in possession of the land during OT times but whether or not the literal hermenuetic(historical/grammatical) that dispensationalists use is correct. That God fulfilled His promise in gving them a land "flowing with milk and honey" is without dispute; and He states why He didn't give it to them 'all at once' but in Ex. 24:30,"By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land."

Of course, 'they staggered at the promises of God through unbelief', but that doesn't disavow God's promises to them, it just means they went 'unfulfilled'.

Now, if we are taking exception to dispensationalism and it's insistence on a strictly literal interpretation, saying that God couldn't possibly have meant to continue His Covenant with Israel, seeing how by 'literal' interpretation it was never fulfilled, we are swallowing a 'red herring'. Dispensationalists, you are on your own in this one.

I for my part believe that God's intentions and purposes are clear, and I believe God has, is, and always will fulfil His Covenant promise to Israel, in spite of their disobedience. I believe in the Millenial Reign, Christ will extend the boundaries of Israel to the borders spoken of in Genesis because it is given in a 'literal' context. My disagreement with the dispensationist position is that the church will be present during the Millenial Reign and all, Israel and the Church, will be perfected in Christ during this time.

Sincerely,
FM

ShirleyFord
Nov 2nd 2007, 07:05 PM
All the verses I read about the promise to Abrahan seem to me that God is speaking in future tense.

God told Abraham:

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


Jacob, right before he died in Egypt, reminded his sons of what God had promised him and His seed:

Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

But we find that only the descendents of two of Jacob's son's, Caleb from the tribe of Judah and Joshua from the tribe of Ephraim, who came out of Egypt, went into the land of Canaan and possessed it.

Caleb, from the tribe of Judah (Southern Kingdom of Israel)

Num 13:6; 34:19; Josh 14:6; Josh 15:13 Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. Num 34:19 And the names of the men are these: Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. Josh 14:6 Then the children of Judah came unto Joshua in Gilgal: and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite said unto him, Thou knowest the thing that the LORD said unto Moses the man of God concerning me and thee in Kadeshbarnea. Josh 15:13 And unto Caleb the son of Jephunneh he gave a part among the children of Judah, according to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, even the city of Arba the father of Anak, which city is Hebron.

Joshua, from the tribe of Ephraim (Northern Kingdom of Israel)


Numbers 13:8,16 Of the tribe of Ephraim, Oshea the son of Nun. These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. and Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua


God bypassed the other tribes of Jacob who came out of Egypt and passed the promise of the land of Canaan to their decendents 20 years old and younger who were born in Egypt.

So not all of Abraham's natural descendents possessed the land.

But God promised Abraham, "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen 17:8)

And God promised Jacob, "Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession. (Gen 48:4)

Also we find that the land was not an everlasting possession of Abraham or of all of His natural descendants. Nor was it in possession of Abraham's natural descendants but at temporary periods of time. Never for a continuous everlasting period as God promised.

Therefore, if God literally meant that Abraham and Abraham's descendents would possess the land from the time He made the promise to Abraham throughout eternity, something is very wrong. The biblical facts themselves contradict God's own words. But God is God and cannot lie. So He must not have literally meant that the land itself was an everlasting possession. And that the promised land of Canaan pointed to something else.

Just my observations.

Shirley

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2007, 07:18 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

Personally, I don't believe that the 1948 establishment of Israel has anything to do with the land promise being fulfilled simply because as a whole, the nation is still in disobedience. And secondly, it is hardly all the land promised. The promise has been made and the land has been given, however, it always depended upon obedience and as you said,

Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

I just believe that before it is all said and done, the Hebrew nation will realize the fulfillment of the promise and will be the Millenial.
Isa 54:4 Do not fear; for you shall not be ashamed, nor shall you blush; for you shall not be put to shame; for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more. 5 For your Maker is your husband; Jehovah of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall He be called.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2007, 07:29 PM
Now, if we are taking exception to dispensationalism and it's insistence on a strictly literal interpretation, saying that God couldn't possibly have meant to continue His Covenant with Israel, seeing how by 'literal' interpretation it was never fulfilled, we are swallowing a 'red herring'. Dispensationalists, you are on your own in this one.

I for my part believe that God's intentions and purposes are clear, and I believe God has, is, and always will fulfil His Covenant promise to Israel, in spite of their disobedience. I believe in the Millenial Reign, Christ will extend the boundaries of Israel to the borders spoken of in Genesis because it is given in a 'literal' context. My disagreement with the dispensationist position is that the church will be present during the Millenial Reign and all, Israel and the Church, will be perfected in Christ during this time.

Sincerely,
FM

I don't understand how the Church will be perfected during the Millenium. Does that mean every member of the Church will be brought back to life and perfected and then resurrected. I agree that there will be a Millenial reign and the land promise will be fulfilled, but I don't understand what you mean by the last statement. Will the Church and Israel be mortal or immortal, I just don't understand what you are saying. Not trying to be hard headed.

And I thought that dispensationalism taught that God would fulfill the Covenant of land??

Sorry, I am confused.:confused

ShirleyFord
Nov 2nd 2007, 08:20 PM
I for my part believe that God's intentions and purposes are clear, and I believe God has, is, and always will fulfil His Covenant promise to Israel, in spite of their disobedience. I believe in the Millenial Reign, Christ will extend the boundaries of Israel to the borders spoken of in Genesis because it is given in a 'literal' context. My disagreement with the dispensationist position is that the church will be present during the Millenial Reign and all, Israel and the Church, will be perfected in Christ during this time.

Sincerely,
FM

So are you saying FM that what God literally meant in Genesis when He promised Abraham and Jacob an everlasting possession of the land, "everlasting" is a temporal period of a thousand years, with a beginning and an ending, with Israel beginning her everlasting possession of the land at the beginning of the thousand years but having to give it up at the end of the thousand years?



Shirley

ForceMajuere
Nov 4th 2007, 10:27 PM
I don't understand how the Church will be perfected during the Millenium. Does that mean every member of the Church will be brought back to life and perfected and then resurrected. I agree that there will be a Millenial reign and the land promise will be fulfilled, but I don't understand what you mean by the last statement. Will the Church and Israel be mortal or immortal, I just don't understand what you are saying. Not trying to be hard headed.

And I thought that dispensationalism taught that God would fulfill the Covenant of land??

Sorry, I am confused.:confused


Dispensationalism is a take off from Futurism which believes in a return of the Messiah in Jerusalem. And since the scripture says 'a thousand years', I don't believe that it will be any longer or shorter than that, unless the Context of the verse suggests something else. At that point I'm sure we agree, God will fulfil His Covenant Promises to Israel, they will 'inherit the land', and their 'seed' will be as the stars in the sky,or the grains of sand on the seashore.

But I'm not a Dispensationalist. Why? Because 1) I don't subscribe to the strictly literal interpretation of prophetic language-I understand Darby's point of 'unless it does violence', but I believe scripture is to be interpreted in context, not a historical/grammatical view. I concede that certain words scripture uses necessitates one searching to derive the most accurate meaning, but context, used correctly, is more reliable.

For example, in 1 John 3:9 it says,"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,"and yet 1 John 1:8 says,"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
In English, this is a irreconcilable countradiction; either we sin or don't sin. But if we study the verse in context, we arrive at the same conclusion as the lexicographers, which is if we sin and keep sinning. Context, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit because it is by Revelation, not some literary rule that we know anything, modulates what is being said by what intent is meant by saying it. John told his disciples,"don't sin." But when you do sin, confess your sin and you have Advocate who will forgive your sins, and by the way, don't let anyone of you tell me he/she hasn't sinned.

If the context is literal, the interpretation is literal, if the context is figurative, the interpretation is figurative. But in either case it is Truth, not 'harmonizing' or 'free-association'.

Context tells me there is 'One Coming' of Jesus to the earth, not a 'Coming in the clouds' for Christians, and a physical return to fight for Israel and establish the Millenial Reign. I can't twist Matthew 13:41-43 and Matthew 24:29-31 to mean anything other than that.

So that means the 'Church' must be present during the Millenial Reign. Jesus told the disciples in Matt. 19:28,"Verily I say unto you, that ye have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel". Some have made the context in the New Jerusalem, but I believe the context is during the Millenial Reign, as it says(Rev.20:4),"And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Clearly, these are members of the Church age, although it includes the disciples. Since all who are in Christ, whether asleep or awake get raptured, the Church will be alive and on earth in their 'glorified' bodies during the Millenial Reign. Those Jews, who cry out for their Messiah and 'weep for Him as an only son"(Zech. 12:10) will also be raptured as the wicked on the earth are destroyed.(Matt. 13:41-42). All Christianity will be on earth during the Millenial Reign, the Jews in the land of their promise and the Gentiles everywhere else. And He will rule the nations with a rod of iron, why?

I believe 1 Cor: 15:23-28 provides the answer,"But every man in his own order; Christ, the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign(1000 yrs) till He hath put all enemies under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
And when all things shall be subdued under Him, then shall the Son also Himself shall be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God might be all in all."

Now, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."(Rom. 8:14) Our righteousness, or right standing or relationship is in Christ, it is apart from works. But our holiness is something we work on day after day, week after week, etc., Christ during this age will perfect us in holiness until everything that resists Christ's authority in us is done away with. After that time will be the Great White Throne judgement and then the New Jerusalem.

Sincerely,
FM

ForceMajuere
Nov 4th 2007, 10:50 PM
So are you saying FM that what God literally meant in Genesis when He promised Abraham and Jacob an everlasting possession of the land, "everlasting" is a temporal period of a thousand years, with a beginning and an ending, with Israel beginning her everlasting possession of the land at the beginning of the thousand years but having to give it up at the end of the thousand years?



Shirley

In Jeremiah 31:35-36 says,"Thus saith the Lord, which give the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of Hosts is His Name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me forever."

As long as there is a sun in the sky and moon and stars by night the Covenant is still in effect with the nation of Israel. After that I believe all Covenant Promises will have been fulfilled in Christ.

Sincerely,
FM

quiet dove
Nov 5th 2007, 01:23 AM
Sincerely,
FM


Thanks for explaining, I have places I agree and others I disagree but that would take us in several rabbit trails but I do understand what you were saying now.

Allegra
Nov 5th 2007, 02:11 AM
In Jeremiah 31:35-36 says,"Thus saith the Lord, which give the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of Hosts is His Name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me forever."

As long as there is a sun in the sky and moon and stars by night the Covenant is still in effect with the nation of Israel. After that I believe all Covenant Promises will have been fulfilled in Christ.

Sincerely,
FM
I don't think so FM & I'll tell you why this is only referring to the Remnant.
In Jeremiah 31 quote a very important word is depicted. "the seed of Israel."
OK, now at the end of Jeremiah 31, the last paragraph, even speaking about the New Covenant with them, notice the "measuring line, the Corner Gate & the Tower of Hananel, & Horse Gate mentionings? OK, Let's go to Nehemiah 3. The rebuilding of the wall. This is taking place after the exile in Babylon. Consider Nehemiah 4:7-9 for example:
7 Now it happened, when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites heard that the walls of Jerusalem were being restored and the gaps were beginning to be closed, that they became very angry, 8 and all of them conspired together to come and attack Jerusalem and create confusion. 9 Nevertheless we made our prayer to our God, and because of them we set a watch against them day and night.
OK,the rest of the chapter you can see that God did indeed bless the remnant.
Now here's an important link to the faithful remnant Israel:
Haggai(the same timeframe asin Nehemiah with the restoration & the rebuilding the temple. The remnant was even referred to by God as "the residue" by God, that's how few there were..(actually some 50k returned) but still keep the remnant in mind, it's the same remnant Ezekiel is told to tuck a "few hairs" under his coat. Anyway, in Haggai 2, we see ZERUBBABEL connected with the promised blessings.
Zerubbabel Chosen as a Signet


20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:


‘ I will shake heaven and earth.
22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.

23 ‘In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the LORD, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Alright, those Heathen kingdoms are referring to nations like just mentioned in Nehemiah.
Now back to Jerusalem, the temple had been restored, & we know it was a smaller building than Solomon's. Within the temple the line of AAronic priests was still worshiping & carrying on the sacred rites as they had been ordered to do by the law of Moses. There was a direct line of descendancy in the priesthood that could that could be traced back to Aaron. (The 400 Silent Years: H.A. Ironside)
But the royal line of David had fallen on evil days. The people knew who the rightful successor to David was, & in the book of Haggai, Zechariah, & Malachi, his name is given to us. It was ZERUBBABEL, the royal prince, yet there was no king on the throne, they were a puppet nation, under domination of Persia. Nevertheless, although they were beset with weakness & formalism as the prophets have shown us, the people were united. There were no political schisms or factions among them, nor were divided into groups or parties.
Now when you open the New Testamentto the book ot Matthew, there's a diferent atmosphere- almost a different world. Rome is now the dominant power of the earth. The Romans legions have spread throughout the the length & breath of the civilized world. Center of power shifted from the East to West, to Rome. Palestine is still a puppet state.-the Jews never regained their sovereignty- but now there is king on the throne. But this king is a descendant of Esau instead of Jacob, & his name- Herod the Great. (Antipater's son) Furthemore, the high priests who now sit in the seat of religious authority in the nation are no longer from the line of Aaron. They cannot trace their descendancy back, rather, they are hired priests to whom the office is sold to as political patronage.
OK, then we can mention how there was at this time the Pharisees & Sadducees, & some small other called Essenes(who could hardly be designated) Not long ago though, they came o prominence in our time bc they tucked away documents in caves overlooking the Dead Sea- documents were brought to light an Arab shepherd boy accidentally discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Anyway, Gal.4:4) "When the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law."

My point is about ZERUBBABEL. He was adopted by Sheatiel (the lineage continues still) bc God chose him.
Go to Matthew 1st chapter, there you see them in the Genealogy of Jesus.

So, very last point is that I believe the remnant has already been chosen from the O.T. The rest of Christian Jews today are still part of that remnant. Just as any new Christian becomes grafted in.

But that doesn't sound like sound like the Zionist movement of today that originated in the late 19th century. I believe Israel to be a political nation, that's all really.

Even the book of Malachi, about 435 BC -ceased writing for the O.T.
Between O.T & close to the New, there became a great hope & anticipation for the Messiah.

Only the remnant accepted him.

I believe 1948 Israel became as such bc of guilt. Everyone was guilty! But I only see that as a political inception. Just like another country wanting their independence.

However, God loves Jerusalem, I think. So politically I think Israel has favor with God. I don't know. I guess I'll have to stick around to see.

Thank you for your time,
Allegra

ForceMajuere
Nov 5th 2007, 08:00 AM
I don't think so FM & I'll tell you why this is only referring to the Remnant.
In Jeremiah 31 quote a very important word is depicted. "the seed of Israel."
OK, now at the end of Jeremiah 31, the last paragraph, even speaking about the New Covenant with them, notice the "measuring line, the Corner Gate & the Tower of Hananel, & Horse Gate mentionings? OK, Let's go to Nehemiah 3. The rebuilding of the wall. This is taking place after the exile in Babylon. Consider Nehemiah 4:7-9 for example:
7 Now it happened, when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites, and the Ashdodites heard that the walls of Jerusalem were being restored and the gaps were beginning to be closed, that they became very angry, 8 and all of them conspired together to come and attack Jerusalem and create confusion. 9 Nevertheless we made our prayer to our God, and because of them we set a watch against them day and night.
OK,the rest of the chapter you can see that God did indeed bless the remnant.
Now here's an important link to the faithful remnant Israel:
Haggai(the same timeframe asin Nehemiah with the restoration & the rebuilding the temple. The remnant was even referred to by God as "the residue" by God, that's how few there were..(actually some 50k returned) but still keep the remnant in mind, it's the same remnant Ezekiel is told to tuck a "few hairs" under his coat. Anyway, in Haggai 2, we see ZERUBBABEL connected with the promised blessings.
Zerubbabel Chosen as a Signet


20 And again the word of the LORD came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:


‘ I will shake heaven and earth.
22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.

23 ‘In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the LORD, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the LORD of hosts.”

Alright, those Heathen kingdoms are referring to nations like just mentioned in Nehemiah.
Now back to Jerusalem, the temple had been restored, & we know it was a smaller building than Solomon's. Within the temple the line of AAronic priests was still worshiping & carrying on the sacred rites as they had been ordered to do by the law of Moses. There was a direct line of descendancy in the priesthood that could that could be traced back to Aaron. (The 400 Silent Years: H.A. Ironside)
But the royal line of David had fallen on evil days. The people knew who the rightful successor to David was, & in the book of Haggai, Zechariah, & Malachi, his name is given to us. It was ZERUBBABEL, the royal prince, yet there was no king on the throne, they were a puppet nation, under domination of Persia. Nevertheless, although they were beset with weakness & formalism as the prophets have shown us, the people were united. There were no political schisms or factions among them, nor were divided into groups or parties.
Now when you open the New Testamentto the book ot Matthew, there's a diferent atmosphere- almost a different world. Rome is now the dominant power of the earth. The Romans legions have spread throughout the the length & breath of the civilized world. Center of power shifted from the East to West, to Rome. Palestine is still a puppet state.-the Jews never regained their sovereignty- but now there is king on the throne. But this king is a descendant of Esau instead of Jacob, & his name- Herod the Great. (Antipater's son) Furthemore, the high priests who now sit in the seat of religious authority in the nation are no longer from the line of Aaron. They cannot trace their descendancy back, rather, they are hired priests to whom the office is sold to as political patronage.
OK, then we can mention how there was at this time the Pharisees & Sadducees, & some small other called Essenes(who could hardly be designated) Not long ago though, they came o prominence in our time bc they tucked away documents in caves overlooking the Dead Sea- documents were brought to light an Arab shepherd boy accidentally discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Anyway, Gal.4:4) "When the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law."

My point is about ZERUBBABEL. He was adopted by Sheatiel (the lineage continues still) bc God chose him.
Go to Matthew 1st chapter, there you see them in the Genealogy of Jesus.

So, very last point is that I believe the remnant has already been chosen from the O.T. The rest of Christian Jews today are still part of that remnant. Just as any new Christian becomes grafted in.

But that doesn't sound like sound like the Zionist movement of today that originated in the late 19th century. I believe Israel to be a political nation, that's all really.

Even the book of Malachi, about 435 BC -ceased writing for the O.T.
Between O.T & close to the New, there became a great hope & anticipation for the Messiah.

Only the remnant accepted him.

I believe 1948 Israel became as such bc of guilt. Everyone was guilty! But I only see that as a political inception. Just like another country wanting their independence.

However, God loves Jerusalem, I think. So politically I think Israel has favor with God. I don't know. I guess I'll have to stick around to see.

Thank you for your time,
Allegra

Zerubabel is obvious a 'type' of Christ. In Zechariah 4:6-7 it says,"this is the word of the Lord unto Zerubabel saying, Not by might, nor by power butby My Spirit saith the Lord of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubabel thou shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying Grace, grace unto it."

But, then again so is Isaac, who was the only seed(singular) of his father Abraham that would inherit the promise of God. And yet God fortold to him his seed would be as the stars of the sky.

Either way, to say that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old and New Covenant I totally agree. Both were blood Covenants, they required the shedding of sinless blood, and Christ, through His death, totally fuflfils the requirements of each. They were both by faith, but there are distinctive differences in each.

The Old Covenant looked forward with the reminder of animal sacrifices to the finished work of Christ; the New looks back at the cross at that completed work.

The Old Covenant is a covenant of the flesh, the (male) adherant of that Covenant was obliged to be circumcised in the flesh as a sign that not only was he a physical heir from the lineage of Abraham but a 'spiritual' heir as well, keeping the law of God in his heart and obeying the commandments. The reward was God's blessings of prosperity in the land of Israel, which was a fleshly sign of God's fulfillment.

The New Covenant, did not abolish but fulfilled the Old Covenant. Israel is still Israel, the land is still the land. But He says to Israel(and to us)" I will put My law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and they will be My people and I will be their God."(Jer. 31:33)

We as Gentiles have no place in physical Israel, and yet the promises of Christ are ours by faith. We have equal access to the Father and although we have no obligation to fulfil the provisions of the Old Covenant, we fulfil the law of love in Christ in the New Covenant.

"God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, and He shall not make it good?"(Num. 23:19)

He swore by Himself that He would make Israel 'as many as the stars of the sky' and He swore to give them a land 'full of milk and honey'.

Interestingly, before 1948 Israel was a dust bowl, now it is an agracultural marvel. Conversely, the Gaza strip under the control of the Hamas has become one of the most desolate, deadly places on earth. No one trusts his brother, everywhere there is chaos, and the only thing that unites them is their hatred for Israel.

Sincerely,
FM

jeffweeder
Nov 5th 2007, 08:38 AM
Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world. (good news )
Why would we look to a earthly kingdom then, as the fulfilment of the promises God made to them? It was always about messiahs kingdom.
Can flesh and blood inherit the promised kingdom?
Doesnt Christ come in his kingdom, as that is what he went away for, to prepare it for us.

In acts 1, they thought Jesus was going to inaugirate this earthly kingdom, but they were sent to the whole world, making disciples for this kingdom.


"It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Peter saw this as the new heaven and the new earth where rightousness dwells.


Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Steven3
Nov 5th 2007, 09:10 AM
Hi David
Another thread on Israel, I'm really surprised how much interest, but also disagreement there is on this subject.


From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.Isn't that the whole point of Acts7:5? Stephen says Abraham never received enough of the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile" to put his foot on.


How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?It can't. As Heb 11 says, Abraham's promise can only be fulfilled because he believed in resurrection on earth.

And if Acts 1:11 isn't literal, and Jesus does not come back then it won't ever be fulfilled for anyone in any sense.

However, that I partly agree with you on this point does not mean that I do not find some of the other non-Israel or non-Jerusalem arguments very weak. In particular the idea that "Gentiles" in Jerusalem being "trampled underfoot by Gentiles" includes trampled by Jews, and some of the fancy footwork with "Israel" and "they" in Rom11, plus of course the "until you say" in the O Jerusalem prophecy. In these 3 verses the denial, but failure to provide an alternative, of what the verses say seems, with respect, to be just as preassumed as the other extreme of animal sacrifices etc.

God bless
Steven

ShirleyFord
Nov 5th 2007, 11:58 AM
Isn't that the whole point of Acts7:5? Stephen says Abraham never received enough of the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile" to put his foot on.

God bless
Steven

Where?

Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.


It can't. As Heb 11 says, Abraham's promise can only be fulfilled because he believed in resurrection on earth.


Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 5th 2007, 12:28 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

Israel still doesn't hold the land, the covenant has not been fullfilled yet. Israel will not posses the land until they repent. God has always said if you repent then you will have the land.

Genesis 17:7-9
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

This was the condition of possessing the land. Obey you can have the land as a possession, disobey and the nations will opress you and posses the land. It is better to obey than to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Deuteronomy 8:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=8&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
“Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers.

It was because of the wickedness of the people that they lost the land.

Deuteronomy 9:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=9&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
“Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.

Just as God has taken the land from Israel because of their wickedness and unbelieve. They do not observe Jesus Christ as their Messiah, they are still waiting for their Messiah.

God will restore Israel to their true glory as witnesses to the world once they repent. When will they repent? During the tribulation. When will they be restored? After the tribulation. They will go into the millennial kingdom owning the land as their possession and they will be the witness God wanted them to be in the beginning.

Zechariah 8:23
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

No longer will the nations war with Israel, they will seek out Israel and their God.

God has not finished with Israel

Romulus
Nov 5th 2007, 06:30 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

Hi David,

I believe we both agree on this point that something is not quite fitting here under the idea that Israel is to possess the land forever. I believe that the land promises were conditional. Nonetheless, God did fulfill the land promise:

Joshua 23(Septuagint into English)

23:14 But I hasten to go the way [of death], as all that are upon the earth also [do]: and ye know in your heart and in your soul, that not one word has fallen [to the ground] of all the words which the Lord our God has spoken respecting all that concerns us; there has not one of them failed.
23:15 And it shall come to pass, that as all the good things are come upon us which the Lord God will bring upon you all the evil things, until he shall have destroyed you from off this good land, which the Lord has given you,
23:16 when ye transgress the covenant of the Lord our God, which he has charged us, and go and serve other gods, and bow down to them.

Joshua 23(NIV)

14 "Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. 15 But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. 16 If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you."

These verses clearly show a conditional Covenant. But even if it wasn't, Israel at that time was given the promised land. How could the land promises go unfulfilled when it was fulfilled according to Joshua? Do you agree?

ross3421
Nov 5th 2007, 08:05 PM
Therefore, if God literally meant that Abraham and Abraham's descendents would possess the land from the time He made the promise to Abraham throughout eternity, something is very wrong. The biblical facts themselves contradict God's own words. But God is God and cannot lie. So He must not have literally meant that the land itself was an everlasting possession. And that the promised land of Canaan pointed to something else.

Just my observations.

Shirley

God did literally mean that Abraham's and descendents would possess the land. This will literally occur in the eternal Kingdom of God as they will safely inhabit the land as an EVERLASTING possession at this time. Will not Abraham and his seed be present? Yes.


Mark

David Taylor
Nov 5th 2007, 08:47 PM
God did literally mean that Abraham's and descendents would possess the land. This will literally occur in the eternal Kingdom of God as they will safely inhabit the land as an EVERLASTING possession at this time. Will not Abraham and his seed be present? Yes.


Mark


So the everlasting promise wasn't for Abraham circa 1400 BC, nor for any of Abraham's descendents between 1400 BC and 2007+ AD.

None of Abraham's descendents within that span of 3400 years were included in the everlasting promise.

Only the future Abraham descendents during a future span of 1000 years will be included in the everlasting promise?

That seems to be effectively what several of you are saying....

Again, where is that 'everlasting' when it excludes both Abraham and 3400 years of Abraham's descendents (most of human history) who were not included?

ross3421
Nov 6th 2007, 01:54 AM
So the everlasting promise wasn't for Abraham circa 1400 BC, nor for any of Abraham's descendents between 1400 BC and 2007+ AD.

None of Abraham's descendents within that span of 3400 years were included in the everlasting promise.


They did possess the land temporarily. But thoughout the ages Israel obeyed then diobeyed and so on........ One day they will posses the land forever and everlasting.




Only the future Abraham descendents during a future span of 1000 years will be included in the everlasting promise?


If should know that I do not agree with the Milinial reign. No, Abraham and his decendents will experience this promise in the eternal Kingdom on a new earth.


Mark

quiet dove
Nov 6th 2007, 02:17 AM
Deu 30:1 And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and when you shall call them to mind among all the nations where Jehovah your God has driven you, 2 and shall return to Jehovah your God and shall obey His voice according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, with all your heart, and with all your soul, 3 then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity. And He will have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where Jehovah your God has scattered you. 4 If you are driven out into the outermost parts of the heavens, Jehovah your God will gather you from there, and He will bring you from there.
5 And Jehovah your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. And He will do you good, and multiply you above your fathers. 6 And Jehovah your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed, to love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

And the remainder of the chapter, all spoken to the nation of Israel. 'you' in these verses equals Israel, not the Church. These words spoken to them before they possessed the first time and were exiled the first time. It does not say how many times this would happen just that it would happen no matter how far and wide the Israelites ended up being scattered. They would eventually have the their hearts circumcised, live in obedience and possess the full scope of the land promised. That has not happened yet.

Steven3
Nov 6th 2007, 02:56 AM
Hi Shirley
Where?Back in Genesis 15:18 as per subject line of thread, OP. This is what Stephen's Acts 7:5 "not a foot" contrasts with.

Gen 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,

Stephen doesn't specifically say it is fulfilled by resurrection (that would be elsewhere in the NT), but he does rule out it happening in Abraham's life or by his physical progeny.


Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.It's obviously not going to be possible to assess the OP on an "everlasting land covenant" if the assumption is already there that Christ is not coming back in his kingdom, and there can be no kingdom on earth.

There are plenty of threads already on heaven-going vs. resurrection. In them the above verse is probably already discussed pointing out that epouranios "heavenly" clearly doesn't mean "in heaven" (otherwise for starters we'd be in heaven right now according to Eph2:6 ;)). In Heb11:16 "heavenly" just means "heavenly". If it was "in heaven" it would say "in heaven". Wheras in fact the NT repeatedly says "from heaven". btw - If replying to this on epouranios perhaps better to do so in a new thread so as not to derail the OP ;) many thanks.
God bless
Steven

ShirleyFord
Nov 6th 2007, 03:41 AM
Hi ShirleyBack in Genesis 15:18 as per subject line of thread, OP. This is what Stephen's Acts 7:5 "not a foot" contrasts with.

Gen 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,

Stephen doesn't specifically say it is fulfilled by resurrection (that would be elsewhere in the NT), but he does rule out it happening in Abraham's life or by his physical progeny.

It's obviously not going to be possible to assess the OP on an "everlasting land covenant" if the assumption is already there that Christ is not coming back in his kingdom, and there can be no kingdom on earth.

There are plenty of threads already on heaven-going vs. resurrection. In them the above verse is probably already discussed pointing out that epouranios "heavenly" clearly doesn't mean "in heaven" (otherwise for starters we'd be in heaven right now according to Eph2:6 ;)). In Heb11:16 "heavenly" just means "heavenly". If it was "in heaven" it would say "in heaven". Wheras in fact the NT repeatedly says "from heaven". btw - If replying to this on epouranios perhaps better to do so in a new thread so as not to derail the OP ;) many thanks.
God bless
Steven

Steven, I was only responding to the Scripture references you posted with those Scriptures:





Originally Posted by Steven3 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1430958#post1430958)
Isn't that the whole point of Acts7:5? Stephen says Abraham never received enough of the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile" to put his foot on.

God bless



Where?

Acts 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.


Originally Posted by Steven3 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1430958#post1430958) It can't. As Heb 11 says, Abraham's promise can only be fulfilled because he believed in resurrection on earth.



Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Shirley

cwb
Nov 6th 2007, 03:54 AM
So the everlasting promise wasn't for Abraham circa 1400 BC, nor for any of Abraham's descendents between 1400 BC and 2007+ AD.

None of Abraham's descendents within that span of 3400 years were included in the everlasting promise.

Only the future Abraham descendents during a future span of 1000 years will be included in the everlasting promise?

That seems to be effectively what several of you are saying....

Again, where is that 'everlasting' when it excludes both Abraham and 3400 years of Abraham's descendents (most of human history) who were not included?


I am kind of failing to understand your point here. If I were a rich person who owned alot of land and told my seven year old son, "I am gong to give you this land", is what I told him null and void because I do not give it to him right then and there. I do not think so but that seems to be what you are saying. Also, are you saying that God is never going to fulfill His promise that He made. I am just trying to understand what you are saying here.

Steven3
Nov 6th 2007, 05:33 AM
Hi Shirley
Steven, I was only responding to the Scripture references you posted with those Scriptures:My fault, mea culpa, I only gave chapter "in Heb 11" without indicating the specific verses in Heb11 which mention "resurrection", or refer to it, I'll do so now. Please see red below:

CWB
While we're at it I'll block in blue the verses which tell us that the Everlasting Land Covenant hasn't, in it's truest sense, even started. ;)
God bless
Steven

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. 29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

David Taylor
Nov 6th 2007, 05:56 PM
I am kind of failing to understand your point here. If I were a rich person who owned alot of land and told my seven year old son, "I am gong to give you this land", is what I told him null and void because I do not give it to him right then and there. I do not think so but that seems to be what you are saying. Also, are you saying that God is never going to fulfill His promise that He made. I am just trying to understand what you are saying here.



I would think in your scenerio, however, you would give it to him sometime in his lifetime, and he would possess it forevermore (since it is everlasting).

But using your scenerio, if you were Abraham, and Isaac was the seven year old son, Isaac never received that everlasting promise. (if literal land truly was the intent of the everlasting promise)
Neither did his son, nor his son, nor their sons after them, and on, and on, and on for 3400 years.

Nearly all of Abraham's descendents who will have ever lived, never received the fulfillment of an everlasting land promise during their lifetimes.

That scenerio either places their inheritance thousands of years into the future after their death.....or it only fulfills that promise to their mega-distant grandchildren 3400+ years into the future.


As to you second question, "are you saying that God is never going to fulfill His promise that He made", I will respond adamantly not. I believe, without a doubt, the promise of land has already been fulfilled in the days of Joshua, as holy scripture states; and that 'the everlasting aspect' of the promise; was never intended to point to land-acreage, but rather, the only eternal possession that truly exists....Jesus Christ. In Christ, does Isaac fully participate in the everlasting possession. In Christ, does Jacob, and Joseph, and Samson, and David, and Isaiah, and Daniel, and Malachi, and Simeon, and Matthew, and Paul, and Timothy, and every descendant of Abraham since find the true everlasting fulfillment. 3400+ years of Abrahamic descendents do partake of the everlasting possession, (if its intent was truly Christ and not land-acreage they almost never possessed.)

DIZZY
Nov 6th 2007, 11:09 PM
We must remember God has promised Israel the land the nation Israel that is whoever is born of Israel will inherit the land. God has always saved Himself a remnant and it will be that remnant that will inherit the millennial kingdom as there possession. God's promise still stands for Israel they will inherit the land God has not finished dealing with Israel.

The church is not the new Israel we are just grafted on because Israel rejected their Messiah, thank God for that. When Israel believes they will be grafted back on to the olive tree. They will be restored to their former position before God as witnesses to the nations. When will this be? During the tribulation.

Romans 11:22-24
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Romans 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

This remnant that is saved will go into the millennial kingdom and be witnesses to the nations.

Zechariah 8:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=8&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
“Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

This is the promise of God fulfilled. Israel will inherit the land. God has not cast Israel off. The church has not taken Israel's position we are just a small pebble in God's big pond. We are the pebble that witnesses until the Lord returns for His bride before the tribulation. Then when we are taken Israel believes in their Messiah and are saved There is peace on the earth for a short peiod of time.

Daniel 9:27 (A)
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

Revelation 6:1,2
1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Then the beast sets himself up in the temple and causes sacrifice to stop.


Daniel 9:27 (B)
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Matthew 24:15
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

Revelation 6:3,4
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Revelation 12:12,13
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

So the remnant of Israel are taken into the mountains and protected by God.

Matthew 24:16
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Revelation 12:14
14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

While the 144,000 Jews who are specially chosen by God and they witness during the tribulation period, no doubt some or all of these will be killed for their witness to God.

Revelation 6:17
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation 7:2-4
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Revelation 14:1-4
1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

cwb
Nov 6th 2007, 11:29 PM
I would think in your scenerio, however, you would give it to him sometime in his lifetime, and he would possess it forevermore (since it is everlasting).

But using your scenerio, if you were Abraham, and Isaac was the seven year old son, Isaac never received that everlasting promise. (if literal land truly was the intent of the everlasting promise)
Neither did his son, nor his son, nor their sons after them, and on, and on, and on for 3400 years.

Nearly all of Abraham's descendents who will have ever lived, never received the fulfillment of an everlasting land promise during their lifetimes.

That scenerio either places their inheritance thousands of years into the future after their death.....or it only fulfills that promise to their mega-distant grandchildren 3400+ years into the future.




You make it sound here as if Abraham and His descendants will never be resurrected.



As to you second question, "are you saying that God is never going to fulfill His promise that He made", I will respond adamantly not. I believe, without a doubt, the promise of land has already been fulfilled in the days of Joshua, as holy scripture states; and that 'the everlasting aspect' of the promise; was never intended to point to land-acreage, but rather, the only eternal possession that truly exists....Jesus Christ. In Christ, does Isaac fully participate in the everlasting possession. In Christ, does Jacob, and Joseph, and Samson, and David, and Isaiah, and Daniel, and Malachi, and Simeon, and Matthew, and Paul, and Timothy, and every descendant of Abraham since find the true everlasting fulfillment. 3400+ years of Abrahamic descendents do partake of the everlasting possession, (if its intent was truly Christ and not land-acreage they almost never possessed.)


My biggest problem with what you said here is that God in His word says "land".

Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

There are other verses which also say "land". I do not believe it is right to say when God said "land", to say, "oh, He didn't really mean that, He meant Jesus Christ. I have trouble seeing how you can get "Jesus Christ" from the word "land". Jesus Christ certainly is not land. Just because God's word to Abraham has not been fulfilled as of yet does not mean it will never be fulfilled. God is fatihful to His word and will keep it. When He say He is going to give land for an everlasting possession, He means He is going to give land for an everlasting possession.

ShirleyFord
Nov 7th 2007, 12:37 AM
But CWB, God told Abraham that He would give the land to him.

Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And then Abraham would pass down his land to his seed forever.

But Abraham never was given the land. Nor was Isaac, Jacob or Jacob's 12 sons nor his grandsons nor his g-grandsons.

So what exactly did God mean when He promised Abraham, "to thee will I give" the land, since God never gave it to Abraham?

God did eventually give the land to Abraham's descendants, way, way, way down the line, nearly 500 years later after God promised it to Abraham. But Abraham never owned an inch of it. The Canaanites did. He could only pass the promise on down to his son Isaac in his last will and testament, as did Isaac to Jacob, then Jacob to his 12 sons.

But Abraham's descendants never owned the land again after God drove Judah off the land during the Babylonian Captivity. When they returned to the land of Israel, they were under Persian rule. Persia owned the land of Israel, then Greece, then Rome when Rome finally drove them off the land in 70 AD.

Do the words "forever" and "everlasting" not literally mean forever and everlasting?


Shirley

ross3421
Nov 7th 2007, 01:52 AM
You make it sound here as if Abraham and His descendants will never be resurrected.

There are other verses which also say "land". I do not believe it is right to say when God said "land", to say, "oh, He didn't really mean that, He meant Jesus Christ. I have trouble seeing how you can get "Jesus Christ" from the word "land". Jesus Christ certainly is not land. Just because God's word to Abraham has not been fulfilled as of yet does not mean it will never be fulfilled. God is fatihful to His word and will keep it. When He say He is going to give land for an everlasting possession, He means He is going to give land for an everlasting possession.

Right on cwb......

I do not why it is so hard for those to understand that the fullfillment of his promise will be in eternity :B

cwb
Nov 7th 2007, 02:43 AM
But CWB, God told Abraham that He would give the land to him.

Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

And then Abraham would pass down his land to his seed forever.

But Abraham never was given the land. Nor was Isaac, Jacob or Jacob's 12 sons nor his grandsons nor his g-grandsons.

So what exactly did God mean when He promised Abraham, "to thee will I give" the land, since God never gave it to Abraham?

God did eventually give the land to Abraham's descendants, way, way, way down the line, nearly 500 years later after God promised it to Abraham. But Abraham never owned an inch of it. The Canaanites did. He could only pass the promise on down to his son Isaac in his last will and testament, as did Isaac to Jacob, then Jacob to his 12 sons.

But Abraham's descendants never owned the land again after God drove Judah off the land during the Babylonian Captivity. When they returned to the land of Israel, they were under Persian rule. Persia owned the land of Israel, then Greece, then Rome when Rome finally drove them off the land in 70 AD.

Do the words "forever" and "everlasting" not literally mean forever and everlasting?


Shirley

And God will give Abraham the land forever and everlasting. I do believe the words everlasting and forever literally mean forever and everlasting.

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 03:12 AM
Hi David,

I believe we both agree on this point that something is not quite fitting here under the idea that Israel is to possess the land forever. I believe that the land promises were conditional. Nonetheless, God did fulfill the land promise:

Joshua 23(Septuagint into English)

23:14 But I hasten to go the way [of death], as all that are upon the earth also [do]: and ye know in your heart and in your soul, that not one word has fallen [to the ground] of all the words which the Lord our God has spoken respecting all that concerns us; there has not one of them failed.
23:15 And it shall come to pass, that as all the good things are come upon us which the Lord God will bring upon you all the evil things, until he shall have destroyed you from off this good land, which the Lord has given you,
23:16 when ye transgress the covenant of the Lord our God, which he has charged us, and go and serve other gods, and bow down to them.

Joshua 23(NIV)

14 "Now I am about to go the way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. 15 But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has destroyed you from this good land he has given you. 16 If you violate the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the LORD's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land he has given you."

These verses clearly show a conditional Covenant. But even if it wasn't, Israel at that time was given the promised land. How could the land promises go unfulfilled when it was fulfilled according to Joshua? Do you agree?


Hi,

I agree it was fulfilled already, and that it was conditional as to whether or not they remained in it.:spin:


That is why they were removed from it, because they did not remain in the "will" of God.

Accept those of faith, and to them the promises remain, but even better ones, that of themselves do not do away with the original.

...accept of course, now they are even better.....;)


peaceandlove,


janet

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1431432)

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 03:40 AM
Does Israel own the land they were promised by God?

DeafPosttrib
Nov 7th 2007, 02:03 PM
Dizzy,

Yes, Israel already possessed all lands during Joshua's time, to King Solomon's reign. I do not have time to post long with verses in Old Testament. I think ShirleyFord will give many details with verses, these telling us, Israel already possess all lands from Egypt river to Euphrate River as what God promised to Abraham.

But, Abraham was not looking for earthly lands, or city. He was look for heavenly city which is New Jerusalem, where God dwells, it is eternal city- Hebrews 11:10;16.

We do not need modern Jerusalem in present nation Israel. Because it is fill of chaos. It will be destroyed. Modern Jerusalem will be gone forever and ever at second advent. So, we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, SO, New Jerusalem shall be descend from third heaven, put it on a new earth, and we shall dwell there on new earth forever and ever. I am looking for! - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

third hero
Nov 7th 2007, 02:25 PM
Dizzy,

Yes, Israel already possessed all lands during Joshua's time, to King Solomon's reign. I do not have time to post long with verses in Old Testament. I think ShirleyFord will give many details with verses, these telling us, Israel already possess all lands from Egypt river to Euphrate River as what God promised to Abraham.

But, Abraham was not looking for earthly lands, or city. He was look for heavenly city which is New Jerusalem, where God dwells, it is eternal city- Hebrews 11:10;16.

We do not need modern Jerusalem in present nation Israel. Because it is fill of chaos. It will be destroyed. Modern Jerusalem will be gone forever and ever at second advent. So, we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, SO, New Jerusalem shall be descend from third heaven, put it on a new earth, and we shall dwell there on new earth forever and ever. I am looking for! - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Again, this is only if one believes that Jesus is going to destroy all of the earth at His second advent. There are those of us who believes that Jesus willl instead rule the world from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise made to David so long ago.

(Psalm 2, Revelation 19:11-15, Zechariah 14:5b-21, Revelation 20:4-10, Isaiah 65)

And if that is the case, then the destruction that cometh in 2 Peter 3 would be the moment written in Revelation 20:10, when Heaven and Earth disappear.

It's all about perspective deafposttrib. (Besides, you didn't think that the PSA would not respond to an obviously ASA comment.... did ya?)

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeafPosttrib http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1433495#post1433495)
Dizzy,

Yes, Israel already possessed all lands during Joshua's time, to King Solomon's reign. I do not have time to post long with verses in Old Testament. I think ShirleyFord will give many details with verses, these telling us, Israel already possess all lands from Egypt river to Euphrate River as what God promised to Abraham.

But, Abraham was not looking for earthly lands, or city. He was look for heavenly city which is New Jerusalem, where God dwells, it is eternal city- Hebrews 11:10;16.

We do not need modern Jerusalem in present nation Israel. Because it is fill of chaos. It will be destroyed. Modern Jerusalem will be gone forever and ever at second advent. So, we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, SO, New Jerusalem shall be descend from third heaven, put it on a new earth, and we shall dwell there on new earth forever and ever. I am looking for! - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


Again, this is only if one believes that Jesus is going to destroy all of the earth at His second advent. There are those of us who believes that Jesus willl instead rule the world from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise made to David so long ago.

(Psalm 2, Revelation 19:11-15, Zechariah 14:5b-21, Revelation 20:4-10, Isaiah 65)

And if that is the case, then the destruction that cometh in 2 Peter 3 would be the moment written in Revelation 20:10, when Heaven and Earth disappear.

It's all about perspective deafposttrib. (Besides, you didn't think that the PSA would not respond to an obviously ASA comment.... did ya?)
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1433525)


Yes, there are varying degree's of interpretation.

....and, I must say amen, to deafpostrib.

Yes, God has already fulfilled the land promise. No, it was not an unconditional promise, for if it was, God would not of told them otherwise.


peaceandlove,

janet

Romulus
Nov 7th 2007, 05:12 PM
Hi,

I agree it was fulfilled already, and that it was conditional as to whether or not they remained in it.:spin:


That is why they were removed from it, because they did not remain in the "will" of God.

Accept those of faith, and to them the promises remain, but even better ones, that of themselves do not do away with the original.

...accept of course, now they are even better.....;)


peaceandlove,


janet

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1431432)


Exactly! Let us not forget as well that the remnant (believing Israel) did receive the Gospel, such as the disciples. They became the foundation of the one tree in which the gentile believers were also grafted in. It was always the plan of God for His children to be one people. It began through believing Israel and then encompassed the rest of the world as well. One people united through Christ. All nations today have the opportunity to become part of Israel through faith alone in Jesus. Praise God!

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1433184#post1433184)
Hi,

I agree it was fulfilled already, and that it was conditional as to whether or not they remained in it.:spin:


That is why they were removed from it, because they did not remain in the "will" of God.

Accept those of faith, and to them the promises remain, but even better ones, that of themselves do not do away with the original.

...accept of course, now they are even better.....;)


peaceandlove,


janet

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1431432)



Exactly! Let us not forget as well that the remnant (believing Israel) did receive the Gospel, such as the disciples. They became the foundation of the one tree in which the gentile believers were also grafted in. It was always the plan of God for His children to be one people. It began through believing Israel and then encompassed the rest of the world as well. One people united through Christ. All nations today have the opportunity to become part of Israel through faith alone in Jesus. Praise God!
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1433722)

AMEN.

I stated that in another board, and they called me a replacement theologist, to which I am not, for nothing has been replaced, lol....God from the beginning had ONE plan in mind, and it was always by faith/belief.

The truth is not very popular today.:cool:

peaceandlove,

janet

Romulus
Nov 7th 2007, 07:06 PM
AMEN.

I stated that in another board, and they called me a replacement theologist, to which I am not, for nothing has been replaced, lol....God from the beginning had ONE plan in mind, and it was always by faith/belief.

The truth is not very popular today.:cool:

peaceandlove,

janet

I can relate. This cannot fall into replacement theology. Replacement Theology says that the gentiles replaced Israel. How can that be if believing Israel (Remnant) did receive the Gospel and then it went to the gentiles as well? Israel was not replaced, it removed the branches of unbelief and then included gentiles all the while being made up of believing Israel.

Strange how people still consider this replacement.

God Bless! :)

David Taylor
Nov 7th 2007, 07:36 PM
Again, this is only if one believes that Jesus is going to destroy all of the earth at His second advent. There are those of us who believes that Jesus willl instead rule the world from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise made to David so long ago.

And if that is the case, then the destruction that cometh in 2 Peter 3 would be the moment written in Revelation 20:10, when Heaven and Earth disappear.


And there are also folks that fall into a 3rd perspective, that says both #1 and #2 above can happen together, at the 2nd Coming, to fulfill those passages.

Jesus doesn't destroy the Earth and it is obliterated....but rather, He remakes it in holy fire, cleansing it of its curse of sin and death; removing it from the bondage of corruption; and restoring it to the perfection it knew in the pre-Fall Genesis age.

None of Jesus' own passages ever say that sin and death and the wicked survive his return, to continue populating the Earth and that the Earth will continue on in wickedness for another 1000 years after His Appearing. Jesus only states the end of the wicked at His return....and the kingdom then at that point, becomes a place of righteousness and glory.

Take Sin and the curse and wickedness out of your post 2nd-Advent Earth....and then you'll have something that harmonizes very nicely with what Jesus depicted the age to come to reflect.

ShirleyFord
Nov 7th 2007, 08:58 PM
And God will give Abraham the land forever and everlasting.

Well CWB, in order for God to give the land to Abraham forever and everlasting, the land would have to be forever and everlasting. And if you are referring to the streak of land of the present modern-day nation of Israel or any part of the present-day Middle East or this present earth, it will not last forever.

2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.




I do believe the words everlasting and forever literally mean forever and everlasting.

Me too. :)

Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 7th 2007, 09:03 PM
Dizzy,

Yes, Israel already possessed all lands during Joshua's time, to King Solomon's reign. I do not have time to post long with verses in Old Testament. I think ShirleyFord will give many details with verses, these telling us, Israel already possess all lands from Egypt river to Euphrate River as what God promised to Abraham.

But, Abraham was not looking for earthly lands, or city. He was look for heavenly city which is New Jerusalem, where God dwells, it is eternal city- Hebrews 11:10;16.

We do not need modern Jerusalem in present nation Israel. Because it is fill of chaos. It will be destroyed. Modern Jerusalem will be gone forever and ever at second advent. So, we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, SO, New Jerusalem shall be descend from third heaven, put it on a new earth, and we shall dwell there on new earth forever and ever. I am looking for! - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The question was does Israel own the land God promised them asan eternal posession?

I know they had possession at a number of times but they don't own it at the moment. Therefore God's promise has not been fullfilled yet.

pinky
Nov 7th 2007, 09:29 PM
This is an excellent thread and I am really pleased to see others who also do not follow the Scofield dispensational construct.

Just for the record, the idea that the 'land covenant' is an unconditional covenant that God still owes the Jewish people, is in fact a rabbinic/Talmudic interpretation.

This is a pharisee leaven that has infiltrated our churches in these endtimes to pave the way for their son of perdition........the one who comes in his own name.

Unconditional? Not so saith the Lord.......

Eze 33:23 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
24 Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance
.25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
26 Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?
27 Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that is in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that be in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence.
28 For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through.
29 Then shall they know that I am the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed.

Steven3
Nov 8th 2007, 12:25 AM
Hi David
Jesus doesn't destroy the Earth and it is obliterated....but rather, He remakes it in holy fire, cleansing it of its curse of sin and death; removing it from the bondage of corruption; and restoring it to the perfection it knew in the pre-Fall Genesis age.I'm so glad to see someone say that. It helps to emphasize that trees, hills, clouds, butterflies, doves and dolphins have not sinned and Christ does not come back to incinerate the environment which God made "very good" in Genesis. It's evident from Peter saying that "heaven" will be destroyed with fire that Peter is using the OT prophets' apocalyptic language (Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah in particular), which wasn't literal in the OT and isn't literal in the NT.

And on restoring the earth to the perfection it knew the pre-Fall Genesis age, it helps to note that Rev2:7 is a reference of Gen2:8 in the Greek OT of the early church:

Gen 2:8 LXX And the Lord God planted a paradise in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the garden of God.’


Take Sin and the curse and wickedness out of your post 2nd-Advent Earth....and then you'll have something that harmonizes very nicely with what Jesus depicted the age to come to reflect.Yes, and the result of sin ~ being dead. So resurrected Abraham and his offspring will finally inherit the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile" (Gen15:18) and more.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 8th 2007, 01:24 AM
Hi DavidI'm so glad to see someone say that. It helps to emphasize that trees, hills, clouds, butterflies, doves and dolphins have not sinned and Christ does not come back to incinerate the environment which God made "very good" in Genesis. It's evident from Peter saying that "heaven" will be destroyed with fire that Peter is using the OT prophets' apocalyptic language (Isaiah, Jeremiah and Zechariah in particular), which wasn't literal in the OT and isn't literal in the NT.

And on restoring the earth to the perfection it knew the pre-Fall Genesis age, it helps to note that Rev2:7 is a reference of Gen2:8 in the Greek OT of the early church:

It sounds like you are advocating the JW error that God will somehow recycle this earth and transform it into “an earthly paradise” which is not what is taught in Holy Writ. The “new heaven and a new earth” (the eternal abode of God’s people) is a realm that has never been inhabited by Christians.
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more” (Rev. 21:1).Peter also noted that this earth would not be recycled – instead he plainly states that the earth “will pass away with a great noise” and “the elements will dissolve with fervent heat”.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up…Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. (2 Pet. 3:10,12).

So resurrected Abraham and his offspring will finally inherit the land "from the Euphrates to the Nile" (Gen15:18) and more.You’re a little late on the fulfillment of the “land promise” - the children of Israel (during the reign of Solomon) possessed the land and reigned “from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates” (Gen 15:18).
And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river [Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life. (1 Kings 4:21)

Steven3
Nov 8th 2007, 02:07 AM
Hi Lost Horizon
It sounds like you are advocating the JW error that God will somehow recycle this earth and transform it into “an earthly paradise”Does the NT teach "guilt by association", that because an idea "sounds like" something someone we don't like (not that I personally dislike JWs, it's your example not mine) therefore that idea is automatically wrong. Or indeed does the NT teach "proved right by association", so any idea Spurgeon or Augustine says must must be right.

I can't answer your point because I have no idea what JW's teach regarding the earth, so you're better informed than me. I was under the impression that they have a replacement theology and would agree with your view on Luke 21:24, Matt23:39, but honestly, the Bible, the Word of God, is the arbiter of what is true, not a beauty contest.

I didn't write Gen 2:8 LXX, nor Rev 2:7.



Peter also noted that this earth would not be recycled – instead he plainly states that the earth “will pass away with a great noise” and “the elements will dissolve with fervent heat”.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up…Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. (2 Pet. 3:10,12).See David Taylor's comments on this verse above.

God bless
S.

quiet dove
Nov 8th 2007, 03:45 AM
No reason to bring anything about JW's, who cares what they advocate. Those who believe there will be a millenial kingdom probably dont even know what JWs teaches nor do they care. I trust we wont be going there folks.

quiet dove

My heart's Desire
Nov 8th 2007, 05:55 AM
I almost hate to get caught up in this but in Hebrews 11, I'm curious. If all of these died in faith looking for a heavenly country then what significance was it that Joseph wanted the Israelites to take his bones with them out of Egypt and bury him in the Promised land? Was it Joseph's faith that they would be leaving Egypt or was it his faith that his bones would be in the Land promised to Israel? I don't know but it seems to me that if it was showing that he had faith for an heavenly country only then why worry about someone taking your bones to a real land?
I really don't know, but I'm curious!

ShirleyFord
Nov 8th 2007, 06:57 AM
I almost hate to get caught up in this but in Hebrews 11, I'm curious. If all of these died in faith looking for a heavenly country then what significance was it that Joseph wanted the Israelites to take his bones with them out of Egypt and bury him in the Promised land? Was it Joseph's faith that they would be leaving Egypt or was it his faith that his bones would be in the Land promised to Israel? I don't know but it seems to me that if it was showing that he had faith for an heavenly country only then why worry about someone taking your bones to a real land?
I really don't know, but I'm curious!

Joshua 24:32

And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.

Surely, this is the reason:

John 4

5 Then cometh he (Jesus) to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.

6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.

7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)

9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?

12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Shirley

ForceMajuere
Nov 8th 2007, 08:02 AM
It appears from the numerous wranglings over this thread and others that the Covenant Theology people see things as 'One Covenant'. It's certainly the easier view to explain; there are numerous references to it in the Old and New Testament and it focuses on a singular message; that Christ, once and for all, is the fulfillment of the Covenant which was ratified by His shed blood. This Covenant is made by faith in the finished work of the cross, any demands of the law become null and void by faith in this Covenant. From this position it is easy to see why God rejects(or substitutes) Israel. They were given an opportunity to fulfil this Covenant by accepting Jesus Christ, they failed to do so, so then in God's own words He will turn to a nation which will produce the fruits of such a Covenant. Since Israel originally inherited the Covenant by faith God 'keeps' His promise by creating a 'Spiritual Israel', ie: Church, and those Jews who fail to become members of the church forfeit their right to God's Covenant and are no better than Buddhists, their Bar Mitzvahs, Brisses and Sabath day ceremonies are just a hollowed out excuse for not following their Messiah.

The Dispensational view doesn't deny that Christ is the fulfillment of all Covenants, it just says there is more than 'One Covenant'. Since this Covenant is fulfilled in the 'dispensation of the fulness of times', God will have opportunity to 'literally' fulfil His promise to Israel; after the church has been removed during the 7 year Tribulation period. It is a harder view to understand since 'how can more than 1 Covenant exist at the same time', but since it follows a literal vs figurative hermenuetic the answer is,"God said it, so it must be so." No wonder Covenant Theology people are banging their collective heads on their coffee tables, the dispensationalists want to take every rabbit trail that scripture gives, rather than follow that 1 overarching scheme that's easy to follow, puts everything in a nutshell and paints with a broad brush the central truth played out on the pages of scripture. Dispensationalists want to complicate things, divide times into 'age of the apostles', and 'church age', bring back things like 'temple worship' and 'sacrifices' that were done away with by the blood of the lamb.

The problem dispensationalists have with Covenant people is their hermenuetic. Since Covenant people follow 'figurative' interpretation, they aren't troubled by Christ 'mystically' reigning on earth, or when 'all Israel shall be saved' it means, 'all the Church or 'New' Israel shall be saved,(Jews for Jesus included) or when the scripture says 'everlasting Covenant' to Israel, since the Church has been re-interpreted to mean Israel, then the 'land' has no particular significance but their identity does. Dispensationalists have their own scheme, for sure, but they believe they are more carefully following scripture, verses painting everything with one brush stroke.

My contention is that both sides have points to make, and have errors in their understanding. For starters:

Covenant people see everything from 'One Covenant', and so blur any distinctions except as it relates to that 'One Covenant'. They use a 'figurative' interpretation, except they make everything 'figurative' as it relates to the 'One Covenant'. As long as it doesn't violate the One Covenant principle, you can reinterpret any way you like. The secret is to keep coming back with more scriptures (or parts of them) which come back to this central truth. Much of Revelations remains a mystery to them because it can't relate to Israel. They can certainly hear the letters to the churches but they have no frame of reference for Revelations because, 'Christ is reigning' and the devil is restrained, and Physical Israel doesn't exist. Why are we fighting in the Middle East, anyway? Can't we just give the Palestinians their land?

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, are 'bound' by their literal hermenuetic. They will ignore any 'figurative' or symbolic context of the verse to plunge down the path of literalism. The RCC has to be the Great Harlot, after all, where else is there a 'city with 7 hills.' Any number account is within the actual time frame, so a lot of things have to happen in a hurry in order to happen. There is a lot of speculating as to the meaning of the visions in Revelations because the corresponding 'literal' meanings just don't make sense.

I've explained my view in this and various other threads- I thought it might be interesting to 'capsulate' these opposing viewpoints.

Sincerely,
FM

DIZZY
Nov 8th 2007, 09:14 AM
Yes God is going to restore the earth to its former glory for the millennial kingdom, but after the millennial kingdoms 1000yrs He will dstroy the earth and create a new heaven and a new earth.

pinky
Nov 8th 2007, 12:39 PM
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

It seems to me that ''for ever" reveals to us the spirit of this promise and it's fulfillment.

Strong's H5769
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity



It is ETERNAL and EVERLASTING so therefore must have a fulfillment in a time and place that is also eternal and everlasting.
What can this be other than the Kingdom of God? Which is not of this world.

The promise that Abraham would be heir of the land is the SAME promise that he would be 'heir of the world'.......

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

It seems to me that it is also relevant to understand the 'seed' of Abraham that is in view in this passage (Gen 13:15).



Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; [B]but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

How beautiful is the Word that it all comes back to Christ.

Of course it is Christ who is the True and Rightful Heir to whom the promises are made and fulfilled, in which all the nations have been blessed.

There can be no inheritence outside of Christ, for He is the Son who inherits ALL that is promised by His Father.


Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

We are co-heirs through Christ......

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


The pharisees made the mistake of reading God's Word in the flesh, seeing everything in the flesh, ie, flesh seed, flesh temple, flesh kingdom, flesh land, flesh city, flesh sacrifices, etc., etc. therefore not able to understand the 'spirit' of the Word, unable to see that these are but a shadow of the TRUE, heavenly, eternal context and fulfillment.

It would seem that many in the churches today are making the same mistake.

The fact that this 'land covenant theology', that is being taught in so many churches today, is NOT taught in our New Testament should be our first clue that sumthin' ain't right here ;).

My own research have convinced me that it is a big part of the 'falling away' and 'strong delusion' that allows for the son of perdition to be revealed.

God bless in Christ,
pinky

losthorizon
Nov 8th 2007, 03:45 PM
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

It seems to me that ''for ever" reveals to us the spirit of this promise and it's fulfillment.

Strong's H5769
[COLOR=black]1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity


The promise made in Gen 13:15 would best fit Strong’s definition, “long duration” and not “for ever, always”. The OT also states that “circumcision” was to be an “everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:13) but Paul reminds us that after the cross – “if ye be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.” The “everlasting covenant” lasted for a “long duration”, but it was not to last “forever, always”. Likewise, the Levitical priesthood was an “everlasting priesthood” (Num. 25:13) but it too ended at the Cross again demonstrating that “for ever” can sometimes have a temporary fulfillment.

The Hebrew nation’s possession of “the land” was always conditioned on their obedience - a condition that they repeatedly violated. God told them…
“When ye transgress the covenant of Jehovah your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods, and bow down yourselves to them: then will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you” (Josh. 23:16).The children of Israel rejected the prophets sent by God and finally they rejected their Messiah and Jesus told them, "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it" (Matt 21:43). The land promise, like circumcision and the Levitical priesthood was abolished at the Cross.

ShirleyFord
Nov 8th 2007, 04:36 PM
Literal natural, earthly and physical things in the Bible which are temporal but point to the literal spiritual and heavenly things which are everlasting:

The Old Covenant - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
The New Covenant - The Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

Circumcision of the Flesh - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
Circumcision of the Heart - An Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

The Stone Temple - A Temporary Place to offer Sacrifices - Ended
The True Temple - An Everlasting Temple, Jesus - Last Forever

The Levitical Priesthood - A Temporary Priesthood - Ended
The Eternal Priesthood of Christ - An Eternal Priesthood - Last Forever

The Land of Israel - A Temporary Kingdom of Rest - Ended
The Everlasting Kingdom of Christ - Eternal Rest - Last Forever


Shirley

John146
Nov 8th 2007, 05:16 PM
You make it sound here as if Abraham and His descendants will never be resurrected.



My biggest problem with what you said here is that God in His word says "land".

Gen 13:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

There are other verses which also say "land". I do not believe it is right to say when God said "land", to say, "oh, He didn't really mean that, He meant Jesus Christ. I have trouble seeing how you can get "Jesus Christ" from the word "land". Jesus Christ certainly is not land. Just because God's word to Abraham has not been fulfilled as of yet does not mean it will never be fulfilled. God is fatihful to His word and will keep it. When He say He is going to give land for an everlasting possession, He means He is going to give land for an everlasting possession.

When will that everlasting land supposedly be given? At the second coming of Christ? If so, then how does 2 Peter 3:10-12 fit with that scenario?

pinky
Nov 8th 2007, 06:32 PM
Literal natural, earthly and physical things in the Bible which are temporal but point to the literal spiritual and heavenly things which are everlasting:

The Old Covenant - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
The New Covenant - The Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

Circumcision of the Flesh - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
Circumcision of the Heart - An Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

The Stone Temple - A Temporary Place to offer Sacrifices - Ended
The True Temple - An Everlasting Temple, Jesus - Last Forever

The Levitical Priesthood - A Temporary Priesthood - Ended
The Eternal Priesthood of Christ - An Eternal Priesthood - Last Forever

The Land of Israel - A Temporary Kingdom of Rest - Ended
The Everlasting Kingdom of Christ - Eternal Rest - Last Forever


Shirley


AMEN!!!

What a blessing to finally find other believers who understand this! Praise the Lord for answered prayer.

Those of us who are under the New Covenant and recieve the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ are to discern these things in the spirit.

The children of the 'flesh', ie, physical Israel (void of faith) hang their hope on elements of the flesh and reject the 'spiritual' vision because of the veil over their eyes that can only be done away with through faith in Christ.


Rom 8:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom008.html#5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Believers in Christ are SUPPOSED to be children of the spirit, understanding the spiritual/eternal vision......but the waters have become muddied due to the 'judaizers' who glory in the fleshy elements.

May the Truth of Christ remove the stubborn, fleshy, scales from our eyes,
pinky

DIZZY
Nov 9th 2007, 12:55 PM
Again, this is only if one believes that Jesus is going to destroy all of the earth at His second advent. There are those of us who believes that Jesus willl instead rule the world from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise made to David so long ago.

(Psalm 2, Revelation 19:11-15, Zechariah 14:5b-21, Revelation 20:4-10, Isaiah 65)

And if that is the case, then the destruction that cometh in 2 Peter 3 would be the moment written in Revelation 20:10, when Heaven and Earth disappear.

It's all about perspective deafposttrib. (Besides, you didn't think that the PSA would not respond to an obviously ASA comment.... did ya?)

I agree totally. Israel will witness to the nations in the millennial reign as they were surpose to. God has not finished with Israel yet, He will restore them when they repent and He will give them their promised land.

DIZZY
Nov 9th 2007, 12:57 PM
Dizzy,

Yes, Israel already possessed all lands during Joshua's time, to King Solomon's reign. I do not have time to post long with verses in Old Testament. I think ShirleyFord will give many details with verses, these telling us, Israel already possess all lands from Egypt river to Euphrate River as what God promised to Abraham.

But, Abraham was not looking for earthly lands, or city. He was look for heavenly city which is New Jerusalem, where God dwells, it is eternal city- Hebrews 11:10;16.

We do not need modern Jerusalem in present nation Israel. Because it is fill of chaos. It will be destroyed. Modern Jerusalem will be gone forever and ever at second advent. So, we are looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, SO, New Jerusalem shall be descend from third heaven, put it on a new earth, and we shall dwell there on new earth forever and ever. I am looking for! - 2 Peter 3:10-13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


The question wasn't did Israel possess the land at one time or another. It was does Israel possess the land now today. Do they own their holy land all of it every shred of it?

Romulus
Nov 9th 2007, 02:13 PM
The promise made in Gen 13:15 would best fit Strong’s definition, “long duration” and not “for ever, always”. The OT also states that “circumcision” was to be an “everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:13) but Paul reminds us that after the cross – “if ye be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.” The “everlasting covenant” lasted for a “long duration”, but it was not to last “forever, always”. Likewise, the Levitical priesthood was an “everlasting priesthood” (Num. 25:13) but it too ended at the Cross again demonstrating that “for ever” can sometimes have a temporary fulfillment.


I am glad you brought this up. Other scripture supports the view that "everlasting" was true but was only a foreshadowing of the perfect New Covenant. I believe circumcision was fulfilled perfectly in baptism which would fulfill the everlating part. Anyhow the "land promise forever" was only a foreshadowing of what was to come. Was Israel to only receive the land of canaan and that's it? You are so correct that they were to posess the entire world through Christ as one people. But they had to be true Israel to receive the promise which was only in Christ. Most do not like to hear this, but if the entire purpose of the Old Covenant(Law) was to bring in the New Covenant(Christ) then if you rejected the New Covenant(Christ) then you also rejected the Old Covenant.

Believing Israel did receive the New Covenant. The Israel of faith began with the believing Jews of the 1st century such as the disciples and those they proclaimed the Gospel to, ALL JEWS! They became the foundation of the one tree. The Gospel was then given to the gentiles as well. Unbelieving Israel was broken off and the rest of the world was grafted in. All one people who would posess the world through Christ as the Good News is spread to all people. As each person receives the Gospel they are made part of the Kingdom, the one people of God. With each believer the Kingdom is advanced until all the world will know the fullness of Christ. Won't Christians then be in a world full of believers united under one King, Jesus Christ? That is the glorious future the world should expect.

cwb
Nov 9th 2007, 03:07 PM
When will that everlasting land supposedly be given? At the second coming of Christ? If so, then how does 2 Peter 3:10-12 fit with that scenario?

Just trying to understand your question. Are you saying there will be no land at all in the new heavens and earth?

My heart's Desire
Nov 9th 2007, 05:50 PM
Yes God is going to restore the earth to its former glory for the millennial kingdom, but after the millennial kingdoms 1000yrs He will dstroy the earth and create a new heaven and a new earth.
I've started a thread on that period of time, but in reality, one doesn't quite know what happens in that time if they can't see the descriptions in books such as the Prophets, Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, etc etc or who think it has all be fulfilled. Revelation doesn't really go into detail about it.

John146
Nov 9th 2007, 06:05 PM
Again, this is only if one believes that Jesus is going to destroy all of the earth at His second advent. There are those of us who believes that Jesus willl instead rule the world from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise made to David so long ago.

(Psalm 2, Revelation 19:11-15, Zechariah 14:5b-21, Revelation 20:4-10, Isaiah 65)

And if that is the case, then the destruction that cometh in 2 Peter 3 would be the moment written in Revelation 20:10, when Heaven and Earth disappear.

It's all about perspective deafposttrib. (Besides, you didn't think that the PSA would not respond to an obviously ASA comment.... did ya?)

We can see in 2 Peter 3:10-12 that the destruction of the heavens and earth occurs on the day of the Lord. So, do you believe the day of the Lord does not occur until the time of Revelation 20:10, which in your view would be over a thousand years after Christ's return? Doesn't Paul equate the day of the Lord (or the day of Christ) with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" in 2 Thess 2:1-2?

John146
Nov 9th 2007, 06:10 PM
When will that everlasting land supposedly be given? At the second coming of Christ? If so, then how does 2 Peter 3:10-12 fit with that scenario?
Just trying to understand your question. Are you saying there will be no land at all in the new heavens and earth?

A new earth with no land? Why would I think that? :D

No, all I'm asking you is when do you believe that the everlasting land will be given to Israel? At the time Christ returns? Before then? Some time after then? When exactly? If you say any time before what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs, then does that mean Jerusalem somehow survives the burning up of the earth?

John146
Nov 9th 2007, 06:13 PM
I agree totally. Israel will witness to the nations in the millennial reign as they were surpose to. God has not finished with Israel yet, He will restore them when they repent and He will give them their promised land.

Are you saying that you think everyone in Israel will repent at some point? Where does Scripture speak of that happening?

wpm
Nov 9th 2007, 08:33 PM
I agree totally. Israel will witness to the nations in the millennial reign as they were surpose to. God has not finished with Israel yet, He will restore them when they repent and He will give them their promised land.

But one thousand yrs is not eternity.

If the earth is obliterated as some here are suggesting then it negates the idea of the survival of the landmass of Israel as a literal physical eternal entity.

Paul

DeafPosttrib
Nov 9th 2007, 08:40 PM
Dizzy,

In Genesis 15:8, God promised Abraham, He shall given land to him from river of Egypt to Euphrate River.

It already fulfilled during Kind David reign. In 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 24:7 and 1 Chron. 18:3, tell us, David already posssesed all lands from river of Egypt to Euphrate River, as what God has promised Abraham.

Genesis 15:8 doesn't say anything about millennial kingdom, because it doesn't say, "one thousand years".

Also, Abraham was NOT looking for earthly city or earthly country. He was looking for heavenly city and country - Hebrews 11:10; and 15-16.

We are not looking for earthly city or land. Because this present planet earth shall be burned by fire at second advent. So, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth. So, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it with Christ forever and ever. - 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation chapter 21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Nov 9th 2007, 08:41 PM
wpm,

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN! :) Not see you post here for a long time!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Merton
Nov 9th 2007, 09:44 PM
Dizzy,

In Genesis 15:8, God promised Abraham, He shall given land to him from river of Egypt to Euphrate River.

It already fulfilled during Kind David reign. In 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 24:7 and 1 Chron. 18:3, tell us, David already posssesed all lands from river of Egypt to Euphrate River, as what God has promised Abraham.

Genesis 15:8 doesn't say anything about millennial kingdom, because it doesn't say, "one thousand years".

Also, Abraham was NOT looking for earthly city or earthly country. He was looking for heavenly city and country - Hebrews 11:10; and 15-16.

We are not looking for earthly city or land. Because this present planet earth shall be burned by fire at second advent. So, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth. So, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it with Christ forever and ever. - 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation chapter 21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


Rev 21 shows nations (plural) who have kings ruling them coming to the gates of the new Jerusalem after it has come down v 10.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.

Also in--

Isa 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isa 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
Isa 60:6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD.
Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings maybe brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

Merton.

jewel4Christ
Nov 9th 2007, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShirleyFord http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1434927#post1434927)
Literal natural, earthly and physical things in the Bible which are temporal but point to the literal spiritual and heavenly things which are everlasting:

The Old Covenant - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
The New Covenant - The Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

Circumcision of the Flesh - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
Circumcision of the Heart - An Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

The Stone Temple - A Temporary Place to offer Sacrifices - Ended
The True Temple - An Everlasting Temple, Jesus - Last Forever

The Levitical Priesthood - A Temporary Priesthood - Ended
The Eternal Priesthood of Christ - An Eternal Priesthood - Last Forever

The Land of Israel - A Temporary Kingdom of Rest - Ended
The Everlasting Kingdom of Christ - Eternal Rest - Last Forever


Shirley



AMEN!!!

What a blessing to finally find other believers who understand this! Praise the Lord for answered prayer.

Those of us who are under the New Covenant and recieve the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ are to discern these things in the spirit.

The children of the 'flesh', ie, physical Israel (void of faith) hang their hope on elements of the flesh and reject the 'spiritual' vision because of the veil over their eyes that can only be done away with through faith in Christ.


Rom 8:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom008.html#5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Believers in Christ are SUPPOSED to be children of the spirit, understanding the spiritual/eternal vision......but the waters have become muddied due to the 'judaizers' who glory in the fleshy elements.

May the Truth of Christ remove the stubborn, fleshy, scales from our eyes,
pinky

I would have to agree with these two statements.


peaceandlove,


janet

ross3421
Nov 9th 2007, 10:05 PM
Dizzy,

In Genesis 15:8, God promised Abraham, He shall given land to him from river of Egypt to Euphrate River.

It already fulfilled during Kind David reign. In 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 24:7 and 1 Chron. 18:3, tell us, David already posssesed all lands from river of Egypt to Euphrate River, as what God has promised Abraham.

Genesis 15:8 doesn't say anything about millennial kingdom, because it doesn't say, "one thousand years".

Also, Abraham was NOT looking for earthly city or earthly country. He was looking for heavenly city and country - Hebrews 11:10; and 15-16.

We are not looking for earthly city or land. Because this present planet earth shall be burned by fire at second advent. So, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth. So, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it with Christ forever and ever. - 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation chapter 21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Will not there be in the future a heavenly kingdom upon a new earth whereby there are those which inhabit land and kings of this earth enter to and fro the city?

Yes. So it has yet to be fullfilled for everlasting.........


Mark

Steven3
Nov 10th 2007, 01:47 AM
Hi Shirley
Literal natural, earthly and physical things in the Bible which are temporal but point to the literal spiritual and heavenly things which are everlasting:

The Old Covenant - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
The New Covenant - The Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

Circumcision of the Flesh - A Temporary Covenant - Ended
Circumcision of the Heart - An Everlasting Covenant - Last Forever

The Stone Temple - A Temporary Place to offer Sacrifices - Ended
The True Temple - An Everlasting Temple, Jesus - Last Forever

The Levitical Priesthood - A Temporary Priesthood - Ended
The Eternal Priesthood of Christ - An Eternal Priesthood - Last Forever

The Land of Israel - A Temporary Kingdom of Rest - Ended
The Everlasting Kingdom of Christ - Eternal Rest - Last Forever


Shirley

These are undeniably true

But there are still some physical things which physically exist

Among them David's tomb in Jerusalem and him in it. God made promises to Abraham, David and others and (so far) God didn't keep them.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 10th 2007, 02:01 AM
...But there are still some physical things which physically exist

Among them David's tomb in Jerusalem and him in it. God made promises to Abraham, David and others and (so far) God didn't keep them.
God bless
Steven
What promises do you feel God has failed to fulfill – scripture, please?

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 02:02 AM
Are you saying that you think everyone in Israel will repent at some point? Where does Scripture speak of that happening?

Hi John,

Isaiah 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=10&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Israel must face God's wrath but He will save a remnant

Romans 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

jewel4Christ
Nov 10th 2007, 03:48 AM
God made promises to Abraham, David and others and (so far) God didn't keep them.

What promises have not been fulfillled?

How do you interpret these verses?


Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jos/21/44.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=KJV#44)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=KJV#44)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=KJV#44)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=KJV#44)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=KJV#44)
Jos 21:44 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=44&version=kjv#44)
And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/k9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jos/21/45.html)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/c9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=KJV#45)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/l9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=KJV#45)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/i9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/images.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=KJV#45)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/v9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/versions.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=KJV#45)http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/d9.gif (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/d.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=KJV#45)
Jos 21:45 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Jos&chapter=21&verse=45&version=kjv#45)
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.


Are you saying that the new covenant, and the better promises that God gave to the jew first, do not entail also, that which was promised in the old?


peaceandlove,

janet

ShirleyFord
Nov 10th 2007, 03:49 AM
Hi Shirley

These are undeniably true

But there are still some physical things which physically exist

Among them David's tomb in Jerusalem and him in it. God made promises to Abraham, David and others and (so far) God didn't keep them.
God bless
Steven

Josh 21:43 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein

Josh 23:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

1 Kings 8:56 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=11&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=56) Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.



According to Joshua and king Solomon God fulfilled all of the temporal, physical promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and to Jacobs 12 sons, the twelve tribes of Israel and their descendants in the temporal kingdom of rest on the temporal land of temporal physical rest from their physical enemy nations.


Shirley

jewel4Christ
Nov 10th 2007, 03:55 AM
Hi Shirley,

I think we had the same scripture in mind.....:D....so, :agree:


peaceandlove,

janet

ShirleyFord
Nov 10th 2007, 04:07 AM
Hi John,

Isaiah 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=10&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Israel must face God's wrath but He will save a remnant

Romans 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=9&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

Paul quoted a lot from Isaiah in Romans 9, 10 and 11. But before he began quoting Isaiah concerning Israel in Chapter 9, he establishes first at the beginning of the Chapter exactly which Israel Isaiah was prophecying about:

Romans 9

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The children of the promise are the remnant of Israel and are the children of God.


Shirley

cwb
Nov 10th 2007, 04:39 AM
[i]

A new earth with no land? Why would I think that? :D

No, all I'm asking you is when do you believe that the everlasting land will be given to Israel? At the time Christ returns? Before then? Some time after then? When exactly? If you say any time before what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs, then does that mean Jerusalem somehow survives the burning up of the earth?

I believe that the land will be given after to Israel after Christ returns. In the new heavens and earth the land will just be better.

Steven3
Nov 10th 2007, 06:27 AM
Hi Shirley
God did not keep his promise to Abraham, nor David. They are dead.

for all the land that you see I will give to you... forever

Yet he gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot's length, but promised to give it to him as a possession

And all these, ...did not receive what was promised

God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 06:52 AM
Dizzy,

In Genesis 15:8, God promised Abraham, He shall given land to him from river of Egypt to Euphrate River.



It already fulfilled during Kind David reign. In 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 24:7 and 1 Chron. 18:3, tell us, David already posssesed all lands from river of Egypt to Euphrate River, as what God has promised Abraham.


This may have happened already but the land was taken away again. God said it would be an everlasting covenant (promise), therefore this promise has not been fullfilled. Why hasn't it been fullfilled because Israel has not repented they are still in rebellion against their God.

Deuteronomy 11:18-25
18"You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

19"You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.
20"You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates,
21so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth.
22"For if you are careful to keep all this commandment which I am commanding you to do, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and hold fast to Him,
23then the LORD will drive out all these nations from before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than you.
24"Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea. 25"No man will be able to stand before you; the LORD your God will lay the dread of you and the fear of you on all the land on which you set foot, as He has spoken to you.



Genesis 15:8 doesn't say anything about millennial kingdom, because it doesn't say, "one thousand years".

No Genesis doesn't actually say millennial kingdom but if the promise hasn't been fullfilled don't you think God being a rigtheous God will fullfill that promise when Israel repents during the tribulation period. Would not God give Israel the land He promised to them once they have repented. He will bring in the everlasting righteousness that was promised in Daniel in the Millennial kingdom.

The land is an everlasting promise to Israel whilst the heavens are above the earth, and I am guessing they will still be there during the millennial reign because Christ restores everything.

Deuteronomy 11:21
21so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth.




Also, Abraham was NOT looking for earthly city or earthly country. He was looking for heavenly city and country - Hebrews 11:10; and 15-16.


I agree but God had promised that if Abraham kept His focus on God and that heavenly kingdom , he would give to Abraham and his descendants the earthly land as an inheritance whilst his descendants remained on the earth.



We are not looking for earthly city or land. Because this present planet earth shall be burned by fire at second advent.


No. We are looking to the heavenly kingdom which won't happen until Christ returns for us at the rapture, but God blesses us whilst we are here on earth awaiting His return.



So, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth. So, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it with Christ forever and ever. - 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation chapter 21.


:amen: to that brother, we will be in the new Jerusalem and there will be no temple for God and the Lamb are its temple and we will continue to reign with Him from the new Jerusalem.

In Christ


Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

:amen:

Genesis 15:18
18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates:

This is a covenant with God which is an eternal promise one that can not be broken by man and God would not reneg on His promise.

If you look at what Israel owns today it is a pretty small piece compared to what God has promised them.

Genesis 17:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Come on, the earth is still around in the millennial kingdom because Christ has to reign until His enemies have been made His footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

So if the earth is still around and Israel has repented and turned to the Messiah during the tribulation they will inherit the land that belonged to them in the first place. The nations will turn to Israel for their guidance, and Israel will take them to their King. Jesus will rule over Israel and the nations with the church by His side from Jerusalem here on earth during the millennial reign not the heavenly Jerusalem.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 06:56 AM
Hi Shirley
God did not keep his promise to Abraham, nor David. They are dead.

for all the land that you see I will give to you... forever

Yet he gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot's length, but promised to give it to him as a possession

And all these, ...did not receive what was promised

God bless
Steven

Hi Steven,
God made the promise to Abrahams descendants awell not just to Abraham. They Abraham's descendants shall possess the land as an everlasting covenant betweenGod and the children of Israel, so long as they obey God. By the way they do repent and they do receive the land aswell. :amen: to a loving and patient Father.

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 07:07 AM
Paul quoted a lot from Isaiah in Romans 9, 10 and 11. But before he began quoting Isaiah concerning Israel in Chapter 9, he establishes first at the beginning of the Chapter exactly which Israel Isaiah was prophecying about:

Romans 9

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


The children of the promise are the remnant of Israel and are the children of God.


Shirley

Hi Shirley,
The children of the flesh are those of the bond woman Hagar and of Rebekah's son Esau, these are not the children of God. The children of the promise are of the seed of the free woman Sarah and her grandson Jacob the promise was made to them no one else.

Steven3
Nov 10th 2007, 07:21 AM
Hi Dizzy
Hi Steven,
God made the promise to Abrahams descendants as well not just to Abraham. Yes, I know ;), but I've been asked to show that the promise was also to Abraham himself.
God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 08:33 AM
Hi DizzyYes, I know ;), but I've been asked to show that the promise was also to Abraham himself.
God bless
Steven

Sorry please forgive me:pray:

Steven3
Nov 10th 2007, 08:53 AM
Sorry please forgive me:pray::D Don't be silly, perfectly understandable. Take care :)

cwb
Nov 10th 2007, 11:31 AM
Hi Shirley
God did not keep his promise to Abraham, nor David. They are dead.

for all the land that you see I will give to you... forever

Yet he gave him no inheritance in it, not even a foot's length, but promised to give it to him as a possession

And all these, ...did not receive what was promised

God bless
Steven

Steven3,
God never made any promise to Abraham nor David that He would give them their land during their temporal lifetime. That does not mean that God is a promise breaker. There is going to be a resurrection.....

pinky
Nov 10th 2007, 12:41 PM
Hi Shirley,
The children of the flesh are those of the bond woman Hagar and of Rebekah's son Esau, these are not the children of God. The children of the promise are of the seed of the free woman Sarah and her grandson Jacob the promise was made to them no one else.

Hello Dizzy,

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

jewel4Christ
Nov 10th 2007, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIZZY http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1436624#post1436624)
Hi Shirley,
The children of the flesh are those of the bond woman Hagar and of Rebekah's son Esau, these are not the children of God. The children of the promise are of the seed of the free woman Sarah and her grandson Jacob the promise was made to them no one else.


Hello Dizzy,

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was 1. born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.Yes, let's look at the first bold, to which I put a number 1 on.

It is clear that the bondwoman includes all whom are born AFTER the FLESH.

It has nothing to do with how some interpret it to be in any other case, as pertaining to a race, etc.

The word of God interprets itself. We do not have to ascribe to the interpretations of anyone else.

Whom are those whom are after the flesh? ANYONE whom does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord, and Savior...whom walk after the course of this present EVIL world, whom do not walk by FAITH, but, by SITE, leaning to and putting their trust in earthly, and fleshly things, as we see written.

In other words, anyone OUTSIDE of Christ, both jew and greek, for God is not a respector of persons, never was, and never will be.

peaceandlove,


janet

pinky
Nov 10th 2007, 06:27 PM
Whom are those whom are after the flesh? ANYONE whom does not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord, and Savior...whom walk after the course of this present EVIL world, whom do not walk by FAITH, but, by SITE, leaning to and putting their trust in earthly, and fleshly things, as we see written.

In other words, anyone OUTSIDE of Christ, both jew and greek, for God is not a respector of persons, never was, and never will be.


I agree Janet. Absolutely God is no respector of persons. He does not glory in the flesh of any people.

As a side note though, I would like to add that it seems to me the NT verses that speak of 'children of the flesh', while this does apply to all people who are void of faith, I do percieve that it speaks to 'the jew first' as they are the ones to whom the promises were 'first' given and they believe they are God's people due to geneoalogies/flesh...... regardless of faith.

Also this verse......

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I percieve those 'born after the flesh' here has unfaithful Jews in mind 'first', as it was they who persecuted and killed the prophets (born after the spirit), persecuted the first Christians, as well it was their desire to kill Christ.......

Mar 15:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar015.html#14) Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.


A bit controversial in our politically correct world today, I know. But true according to scripture, imho.

God bless,
pinky

jewel4Christ
Nov 10th 2007, 06:40 PM
I agree Janet. Absolutely God is no respector of persons. He does not glory in the flesh of any people.

As a side note though, I would like to add that it seems to me the NT verses that speak of 'children of the flesh', while this does apply to all people who are void of faith, I do percieve that it speaks to 'the jew first' as they believe that they are God's people due to geneoalogies/flesh...... regardless of faith.

Also this verse......

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I percieve those 'born after the flesh' here has unfaithful Jews in mind 'first', as it was they who persecuted and killed the prophets (born after the spirit), persecuted the first Christians, as well it was their desire to kill Christ.......

Mar 15:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar015.html#14) Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.


A bit controversial in our politically correct world today, I know. But true according to scripture, imho.

God bless,
pinky


All flesh is as the grass....it will wither and fade away, and unless one is Abraham's seed, by faith....they do not hold anything above another human.

Jew or greek, does not matter to God.

He has already broke down that wall of separation, by His death on a tree.

We are warned, though, that men would build it back up again with untempered mortar.....

It is something that we all should look more into what that means.

Ezek 13:10
Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and [there was] no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered [morter]: Eze 13:11 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=13&v=11&version=KJV#11) Say unto them which daub [it] with untempered [morter], that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend [it]. Eze 13:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=13&v=14&version=KJV#14) So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered [morter], and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD. Eze 13:15 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=13&v=15&version=KJV#15) Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered [morter], and will say unto you, The wall [is] no [more], neither they that daubed it; Eze 22:28 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Eze&c=22&v=28&version=KJV#28) And her prophets have daubed them with untempered [morter], seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.


peaceandlove,


janet

pinky
Nov 10th 2007, 07:22 PM
I totally agree with what you are saying Janet. The flesh and spirit are contrary to one another...

Gal 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal005.html#17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I don't disagree with your point at all.

It's just that I see there is a 'Jew first' theme in some respects and I find it interesting....

Rom 1:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom001.html#16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#9) Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


Rom 2:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom002.html#10) But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


I don't see that 'to the Jew first' means Jews are exhalted above others or anything, more of a 'to whom much is given, much is expected' kinda thing.

I also see this in elements of prophecy too, ie, the 'mother' of harlots being the 'first' among harlots, etc.

But, that is getting off topic....so I'll leave it at that.


Love in Christ,
pinky

pinky
Nov 10th 2007, 07:32 PM
edit---- double post

DIZZY
Nov 10th 2007, 10:18 PM
You are right Jew, Greek, slave or free man are all the same in God's eyes. He will punish each one in the same way for their sin. He sent His Son to die for the world not just a precious few. But He did make a promise to Israel and God is not in the habit of breaking promises.

Galatians 3:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Deuteronomy 11:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=11&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
21so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as ong as the heavens remain above the earth.


God promised that the land would belong to Abraham and all his descendants not just a few as you notice in the above verse. Even those descendants of Abraham's today have that very same promise of God, yet they reject God and whilst they still reject Christ they will not go in and possess the land.



Deuteronomy 28:1-3
1 “Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the LORD your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the LORD your God:
3 “Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country.

God told them if they would not obey, then He would send the other nations in to drive them out of the promised land. This has happened throughout history as we know. But if they were to repent and obey God except Jesus Christ as their Messiah, that would be a different story, they would be allowed to return to their land. They would be grafted back onto the vine.

Deuteronomy 4:23-27
23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
25 After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and provoking him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. 27 The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you.

Romans 11:23-25
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

The fullness of the Gentiles comes in when Christ takes His bride home, then Israel once again believes in her Messiah. They are taken to the wilderness were they are protected for 42mths that is the last 3 1/2 years of tribulation.

As true born again believers in Jesus Christ we are promised eternal life with our Lord and Savior, we are promised to reign with Him in His kingdom over the Israelites. This kingdom is an earthly kingdom, this earthly kingdom in the kingdom Jesus gives Israel the promised land Canaan and He rules with a rode of iron from Jerusalem. Israel will live peaceable in the promised land.

The nations will ask Israel to take them to the king so that they can worship Him who is worthy of all praise. No sin will enter Jerusalem it will be dealt with straight away. Sinners will be punished outside the gates.

ShirleyFord
Nov 11th 2007, 12:23 AM
As true born again believers in Jesus Christ we are promised eternal life with our Lord and Savior, we are promised to reign with Him in His kingdom over the Israelites. This kingdom is an earthly kingdom, this earthly kingdom in the kingdom Jesus gives Israel the promised land Canaan and He rules with a rode of iron from Jerusalem. Israel will live peaceable in the promised land..

The nations will ask Israel to take them to the king so that they can worship Him who is worthy of all praise. No sin will enter Jerusalem it will be dealt with straight away. Sinners will be punished outside the gates.


You have 4 different groups of people in the kingdom of Christ:

born again believers
Israel
nations
sinnersHow can that be? Jesus told one of the Jewish leaders, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn 3:3)

And you seem to be saying that there will be at least two different kingdoms:

The kingdom of Jesus Christ that born again believers get to reign with Him in over Israel
The restored kingdom of the nation of Israel
Shirley


,

ShirleyFord
Nov 11th 2007, 12:40 AM
Hi Shirley,
The children of the flesh are those of the bond woman Hagar and of Rebekah's son Esau, these are not the children of God. The children of the promise are of the seed of the free woman Sarah and her grandson Jacob the promise was made to them no one else.

Sorry Dizzy that I missed this post of your until now when I just saw it.

Jesus told the Jews in John 8:

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Paul, a Jew, explains how we, Jews and Gentiles alike, become the children of God

Galatians 3

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Merton
Nov 11th 2007, 01:11 AM
Hi

Those born of the flesh as opposed to those born of the spirit, are as Esau is to Jacob.

It is something which occurs when the gospel is preached to the general public.

Some hearers become Christians and others (not all) become like Esau, who is described in detail in 1 John as the source of the false prophets and their followers.

Churches today contain many Esaus who are often most diligent in studying scripture and becoming leaders, but they are not taught by God and come up with natural understandings of scripture through which they wage war, even upon nations by using governments which they deceive to do their will. (1st and 2nd seal)

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things thatare in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would nodoubt have continued with us: but theywentout, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Merton.

Merton
Nov 11th 2007, 01:46 AM
Another point is--

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


The times of restoration or restitution of all things only follows the return of Christ.

This was preached by the prophets since the world began.

Now we ought look for the record of its preaching to find out in what form it was preached because if it was preached in a typological way then we ought take notice of that.

Can anyone point out the promises of Acts 3:21 preached by the prophets from the beginning of the world.

It should be in Genesis before the flood or there abouts.

Merton.

Mograce2U
Nov 11th 2007, 02:13 AM
Merton,
The times of restitution are already here:

(Mat 19:28 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Titus 3:5 KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Heb 9:10 KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

(Rev 6:9-11 KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Rev 20:4 KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Acts 3:21-23 KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. {22} For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. {23} And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

"From among the people" is Israel and 70 AD is when it happened.

ShirleyFord
Nov 11th 2007, 02:53 AM
Hi Shirley,
The children of the flesh are those of the bond woman Hagar and of Rebekah's son Esau, these are not the children of God. The children of the promise are of the seed of the free woman Sarah and her grandson Jacob the promise was made to them no one else.

Hi Dizzy,

Were you referring to Galatians 4:

Gal 4:22-26 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Two Different Covenants - Two Different Jerusalems

A. Old Covenant

earthly
bondage
after the flesh
earthly JerusalemB. New Covenant

heavenly
freedom
by promise
heavenly Jerusalem

Shirley

Steven3
Nov 11th 2007, 03:08 AM
Hi CWB
Steven3,
God never made any promise to Abraham nor David that He would give them their land during their temporal lifetime. That does not mean that God is a promise breaker. There is going to be a resurrection.....

Scripturally speaking, yes, correct, and that is how I read the mentions of Abraham's hope in "resurrection" in Heb11 and so on. However that there is a "resurrection" does not automatically mean to everyone that God will keep his promise to Abraham regarding the land. As I understand it many people take the view that Abraham and David are already in heaven, and that they would only come back halfway, "in the air", to collect their bodies with Christ, and then take their bodies back to heaven. In which case Abraham will never set foot on the land, much less take possession of it. In which case God is not going to keep that "land" promise to "you" (Abraham) in any sense.

So this thread "Everlasting land covenant" is a subfolder of bigger questions such as whether Christ is physically coming back per Acts 1:11, whether death is real per Ps6:5, and so on. Since the participants in the thread don't share a common understanding concerning the mortality or immortality of man, or a common understanding concerning the return or partial return or non-return of Christ, inevitably there won't be a common reading of the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc.

God bless
Steven

Merton
Nov 11th 2007, 03:19 AM
Merton,
The times of restitution are already here:

(Mat 19:28 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Titus 3:5 KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Heb 9:10 KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

(Rev 6:9-11 KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(Rev 20:4 KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Acts 3:21-23 KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. {22} For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. {23} And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

"From among the people" is Israel and 70 AD is when it happened.


Has Jesus returned from Heaven?

Merton.

Steven3
Nov 11th 2007, 03:37 AM
Hi Mograce

Merton,
The times of restitution are already here:

................

(Acts 3:21-23 KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. {22} For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. {23} And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

"From among the people" is Israel and 70 AD is when it happened.

Does the slaying of 100,000 Jews by a Roman general and burning of the temple really count as "the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began"? That's it? :( That's what all the OT prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc. leading to - a squalid minor massacre (by the standards of Jewish history), and the burning of a temple which had been disempowered by the rending of the veil 40 years earlier.

And was Titus, in slaying so many Jews, a theophany of Christ? Because "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of [AD70]" requires Titus and his legions have some theophanic role as a manifestation of the Lord Jesus.

Sorry but this preterite interpretation of "restitution"
1. doesn't change that Christ promised to return - and the NT contains 100s of references to him doing so.
2. stretches what "restitution" can mean in Greek beyond breaking point:



apokata-sta^sis (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29pokata%2Fstasis&bytepos=18886532&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) , eôs, hê (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%28&bytepos=18886532&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057),
A. restoration, re-establishment, tou (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%3D&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) endeous (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29ndeou%3Ds&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) Arist.MM1205a4 ; eis (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29s&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) phusin (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fu%2Fsin&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) ib. 1204b36, 1205b11; return to a position, Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; esp. of military formations, reversal of a movement, Ascl.Tact.10.6, etc.; generally, pantôn (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pa%2Fntwn&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) Act.Ap.3.21 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0031%2c005%3a3%3a2 1&vers=original&word=a%29pokata%2fsta%5esis#word1) ; of the soul, Procl.Inst (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Inst&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman).199 (pl.); tês (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=th%3Ds&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) phusios (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fu%2Fsios&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) es (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29s&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) to (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=to%2F&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) archaion (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29rxai%3Don&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) Aret. CD1.5 ; recovery from sickness, Id.SA1.10; tôn (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw%3Dn&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) homêrôn (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28mh%2Frwn&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) eis (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29s&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) tas (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ta%2Fs&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) patridas (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=patri%2Fdas&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) Plb.3.99.6 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0543%2c001%3a3%3a9 9%3a6&vers=original&word=a%29pokata%2fsta%5esis#word1) ; eis (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29s&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) a. elthein (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29lqei%3Dn&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057), of the affairs of a city, Id.4.23.1 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0543%2c001%3a4%3a2 3%3a1&vers=original&word=a%29pokata%2fsta%5esis#word1); return to original position, Ascl.Tact. 10.1; a. astrôn (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29%2Fstrwn&bytepos=18886724&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057) return of the stars to the same place in the heavens as in the former year, Plu.2.937f, D.S.12.36 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0060%2c001%3a12%3a 36&vers=original&word=a%29pokata%2fsta%5esis#word1), etc.; periodic return of the cosmic cycle, Stoic.2.184,190; of a planet, return to a place in the heavens occupied at a former epoch, Antioch (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Antioch&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman).Astr. ap. Cat.Cod.Astr. 7.120,121; but, zodiacal revolution, Paul.Al.T.1; opp. antap. (q. v.), Doroth. ap. Cat.Cod.Astr.2.196.9; restoration of sun and moon after eclipse, Pl.Ax.370b.

To say to Jews in Roman-occupied Jerusalem in AD31 that the "restitution" of all the OT prophets had prophesied was to be completed by the exact opposite - the burning and depopulating of the city, is also ignoring that "restitution (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057;layout=;qu ery=entry%3D%2312776;loc=a%29pokatasta%5Esi%2Fa)" (apokata-stasis) is just the noun form of "restore (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G600&Version=kjv)" (apokath-istemi)

Acts 1:6 "Lord will you at this time restore again the kingdom (basilea, kingship, independance) to Israel?

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times to restore all things.."

When Jesus tells them they are not to know the time of the "restoring" of the kingdom in Acts 1:7, it is not talking of a different date from the coming of the Son of Man in Mark 13:32

Mark 13:32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35 Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.”

So we have to choose. Either the Master of the House came to find his servants sleeping or waking in AD70, and "restored the kingdom to Israel" in the person of a bloodletting Roman general, or he has not yet come. Acts 1:6/3:21 and Mark 13:32 are talking about the same unknowable date.
God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Nov 11th 2007, 10:14 AM
Merton,


The times of restitution are already here:

(Mat 19:28 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Titus 3:5 KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Heb 9:10 KJV) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

[QUOTE]
(Rev 6:9-11 KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: {10} And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? {11} And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


these under the altar are those who were martyred in the tribulation period. They are told to wait under the altar until their fellow servants and brethren have been martryed like them was finished. These are the once before the throne in Rev 7:9-17. They are gathered together from under the altar and out of the tribulation.

(Rev 20:4 KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These seated on the thrones are representitives of the church. Those souls as you know are those who have come out of the tribulation and they reign with Christ over Israel and the nations for a thousand years in the millennial kingdom.

From the verses you have quoted above you are saying the times of restitution are already here, but from the verse you quoted below the times of restitution have not begun. In the verses before hand it say's (Acts 3:19,20) Therefore repent and return, so that your sins maybe wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and He may send Jesus the Christ appointed for you.

When therefore is used we must ask ourselves what it is there for, so lets have a look why it is there for. The verses before we must look at.

Acts 3:17,18
17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

These verses tell us all things that the prophets said have been fulfilled in Christ. But they must repent and return so that their sins maybe wiped away, so until they repent they can't receive the fulfillment of what the prophets spoke of such as in Daniel 9:24,25. Once they repent then God will send the Lord at His appointed time being the end of the tribulation.



(Acts 3:21-23 KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. {22} For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. {23} And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

"From among the people" is Israel and 70 AD is when it happened.


Upon studying this verse I believe this is talking about the tribulation where those who do not believe in Christ who is that prophet and they will not hear Him will be destroyed from among the people being the true believers. And then restitution of all things will happen, Israel will be restored as witnesses among the nations and Christ will be King over the earth in the millennial kingdom.

The scroll that the Lamb opens is the title deed to the earth the seals, trumpet, and bowls are His judgement on the wicked of the earth whilst He takes back all authority and His Kingdom.

Revelation 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“ Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 6:1,2
1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

DIZZY
Nov 11th 2007, 10:34 AM
You have 4 different groups of people in the kingdom of Christ:

born again believers
Israel
nations
sinnersHow can that be? Jesus told one of the Jewish leaders, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn 3:3)

And you seem to be saying that there will be at least two different kingdoms:

The kingdom of Jesus Christ that born again believers get to reign with Him in over Israel
The restored kingdom of the nation of IsraelShirley


,


Hi Shirley,
Jesus will rule from the earth before He destroys everything and returns to His heavenly kingdom.
Whilst Christ rules from earth yes there are till sinners on it, they are born of the believers who went into the millennial reign. Yes there are nations, and born again believers they are those who are saved during the tribulation and they go into the millennial kingdom alive unchanged. They do not need to be changed because it is still an earthly kingdom that Christ is reigning from.
Yes Israel is there in the earthly reign of Christ for they are the ones that lead the nations to Christ. Zecheriah 8.

How can this be because Christ is reigning from the earth He has not yet returned to His fathers house. He can not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Yes there are two different kingdoms if you want to say it that way but not at the same time.

I'd prefer to say there is an earthly reign and then there is the everlasting kingdom of God when Christ has put His enemies under His feet.

In the earthly kingdom Israel is restored and the church reigns over them with Christ.

In the everlasting kingdom all those who believe and put their faith in the Lord will be with Christ and we all will worship Him as Lord of all. He shall be our God and we sshall be His people and there will be no need for a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.

Revelation 21:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

jewel4Christ
Nov 11th 2007, 01:54 PM
Hi Shirley,
Jesus will rule from the earth before He destroys everything and returns to His heavenly kingdom.
Whilst Christ rules from earth yes there are till sinners on it, they are born of the believers who went into the millennial reign.I believe that Jesus has already began to reign from the earth, and, through the new covenant, that we all can enter by faith. He reigns over His house, now....we are His priesthood, and yes, there are still sinners in this world.



Yes there are nations, and born again believers they are those who are saved during the tribulation and they go into the millennial kingdom alive unchanged.Nobody goes into the new earth, unchanged. Flesh and blood cannot enter it. The bible states that this present evil earth is destroyed at the coming of JESUS.

Not a thousand years later.


They do not need to be changed because it is still an earthly kingdom that Christ is reigning from.
Yes Israel is there in the earthly reign of Christ for they are the ones that lead the nations to Christ. Zecheriah 8.
Jesus is the one whom leads people to Christ, and His seed, to whom He works through, which is not nor never was a flesh race...but, those whom are the seed of Abraham, by faith.

God has never, nor will never use the flesh in this way. It has already been proven, by the old covenant that the flesh can only lead us to death...that is why God used a flesh race in the old covenant to teach us that.



How can this be because Christ is reigning from the earth He has not yet returned to His fathers house. He can not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The kingdom of God does not end. This present evil world will end, and the last thing to be destroyed is death, and at His coming, that is done...for that is when the new earth will be here, and in it there is no death, no more pain, no more dying.



Yes there are two different kingdoms if you want to say it that way but not at the same time.There is one kingdom of God, eternal. It is here, we enter it now by faith, and, at His coming, we will enter it in it's fullness by site...and, see Him face to face.




I'd prefer to say there is an earthly reign and then there is the everlasting kingdom of God when Christ has put His enemies under His feet.The earthly reign began at the cross.




In the earthly kingdom Israel is restored and the church reigns over them with Christ.Israel was to whom the new and living way already went first...to the jew first, as written. We are not awaiting some future time for this to occur.


In the everlasting kingdom all those who believe and put their faith in the Lord will be with Christ and we all will worship Him as Lord of all. He shall be our God and we sshall be His people and there will be no need for a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.
Yes, so why are you saying that there will be an earthly temple of jews?



Revelation 21:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1437323)New earth.

It comes at the coming of the Lord. Just my thoughts.....

peaceandlove,


janet

Mograce2U
Nov 11th 2007, 06:22 PM
Steven3, #102 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1437223&postcount=102)
The times of restitution are referring to the restored state of Adam before the fall. Pentecost brought this to pass by the promise of the new covenant which Jesus brought in at the cross. All that remained was for His enemies to be removed for this restoration to be complete - the other half of the prophecy. Although ultimately the resurrection is when we will be in a sinless state - it begins when we are born again and our sin is forgiven. That is when we are reconciled in order to have fellowship with God. If the power of God's Spiriit is not indwelling you, then you have no seed in you to survive death when it comes. It is the new man who is raised to life and must be present now. This is the seal we have of this promise which proof is Jesus risen from the dead.

Mograce2U
Nov 11th 2007, 07:03 PM
Hi Dizzy,
I don't know what to say to you since your "futurist" glasses seem to be preventing you from seeing the spiritual blessings we have in Christ now. Are we not redeemed now? Has not the Holy Spirit been given to us when we come to faith in Christ? Is Jesus not ruling from heaven in His kingdom which is spiritual in the lives of those who are His? As priests of Christ are not we able to come boldly before the throne of grace now, where Jesus Hiimself intercedes on our behalf?


Upon studying this verse I believe this is talking about the tribulation where those who do not believe in Christ who is that prophet and they will not hear Him will be destroyed from among the people being the true believers. And then restitution of all things will happen, Israel will be restored as witnesses among the nations and Christ will be King over the earth in the millennial kingdom.

The scroll that the Lamb opens is the title deed to the earth the seals, trumpet, and bowls are His judgement on the wicked of the earth whilst He takes back all authority and His Kingdom.Jesus received the kingdom when He ascended to the throne of His Father. This is what Daniel saw in his vision in 7:13. It is those who believe who have the testimony of Jesus - which testimony is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). What is being revealed is what Jesus as the Christ has accomplished and is continuing to bring to fruition even now.

Until we can see Revelation as it applies to those in the 1st Avent and forward, I think we are missing a lot that would bring us into a fuller knowledge of who He is. If we instead spend our time trying to imagine things we think are not fulfilled, what is that going to do to the Hope we have in His return?

What I see happening is that we want to give unbelieving Israel a hope they do not have, but in doing this we have to deny what Jesus has already accomplished for us. Revelation was given to a people under persecution to give them hope and strength to overcome in the times they were in - that last generation of Israel which saw Messiah's arrival to bring in a spiritual kingdom, a new covenant and a new power by which to live; so that we could be reconciled to God by grace thru faith in what Christ has done. It is Jesus as the Christ that is being revealed to us, and it is not about a future hope for a future generation in Israel who continues to reject Jesus. The blessing this book contains is for those who look to Jesus and believe. And we are to be very careful that we neither add to those words nor take anything away that is in there, lest we lose our part in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:19).

I know many say that eschatology is not about "salvation issues", but that warning alone tells us it is. The book of life, the right to eat from the tree of life, the living waters and the New Jerusalem, are all about the hope that we have now. We must hold fast to our hope by faith if we are to have a part in these things that await us when He returns - and brings our salvation. Which is exactly what those in the 1st century had to do in the times they were in if they were to be refreshed in spirit in the hope that they professed as they faced those things that were coming upon that generation.

ShirleyFord
Nov 12th 2007, 03:17 AM
Hi Shirley,
Jesus will rule from the earth before He destroys everything and returns to His heavenly kingdom.
Whilst Christ rules from earth yes there are till sinners on it, they are born of the believers who went into the millennial reign. Yes there are nations, and born again believers they are those who are saved during the tribulation and they go into the millennial kingdom alive unchanged. They do not need to be changed because it is still an earthly kingdom that Christ is reigning from.
Yes Israel is there in the earthly reign of Christ for they are the ones that lead the nations to Christ. Zecheriah 8.

How can this be because Christ is reigning from the earth He has not yet returned to His fathers house. He can not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Yes there are two different kingdoms if you want to say it that way but not at the same time.

I'd prefer to say there is an earthly reign and then there is the everlasting kingdom of God when Christ has put His enemies under His feet.

In the earthly kingdom Israel is restored and the church reigns over them with Christ.

In the everlasting kingdom all those who believe and put their faith in the Lord will be with Christ and we all will worship Him as Lord of all. He shall be our God and we sshall be His people and there will be no need for a temple because God and the Lamb are its temple.

Revelation 21:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Dizzy,

The Bible only speaks of one kingdom of God, one kingdom of heaven, one kingdom of Christ. And that One kingdom is not earthly and temporal but heavenly and everlasting.

There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

There are only two peoples of this world: those in Christ and those who are not in Christ.

Those in Christ are in the kingdom of God.

Those not in Christ are in the kingdom of Satan.

Col 1:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Luke tells us in Acts 1 that Jesus will bodily come back once the same as He ascended bodily to heaven one time. I don't understand what you mean about Jesus having to "return to his Father's house" before he can reign?


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 03:40 AM
Dizzy,

The Bible only speaks of one kingdom of God, one kingdom of heaven, one kingdom of Christ. And that One kingdom is not earthly and temporal but heavenly and everlasting.

There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan.

There are only two peoples of this world: those in Christ and those who are not in Christ.

Those in Christ are in the kingdom of God.

Those not in Christ are in the kingdom of Satan.

Col 1:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Luke tells us in Acts 1 that Jesus will bodily come back once the same as He ascended bodily to heaven one time. I don't understand what you mean about Jesus having to "return to his Father's house" before he can reign?


Shirley

Hi Shirley,

Yes we are in Christ's kingdom which started when He died on the cross.
I did not say He had to return to His Father's house before He can reign.
What I said was, when Christ returns He will reign on earth in the millennial kingdom which is still His kingdom, and He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

Who reigns here on this earth now?

ShirleyFord
Nov 12th 2007, 04:09 AM
Hi Shirley,

Yes we are in Christ's kingdom which started when He died on the cross.
I did not say He had to return to His Father's house before He can reign.
What I said was, when Christ returns He will reign on earth in the millennial kingdom which is still His kingdom, and He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet.

Thanks Dizzy...I see now where I read it wrong.

But I still don't understand what you mean by: "He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet."

From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.


Who reigns here on this earth now?

We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom over the kingdom of darkness in our own lives that would try to stop us from sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with those who sit in darkness bound by the chains that the devil has them bound with, who, as we were, have no hope until they turn to Jesus and He sets them free.

Shirley

Steven3
Nov 12th 2007, 05:58 AM
Hi Mograce
I have to ask; does your reading assume that Christ is not coming back to this earth?


Steven3, #102 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1437223&postcount=102)
The times of restitution are referring to the restored state of Adam before the fall. Pentecost brought this to pass by the promise of the new covenantThat is perhaps partly true in one small aspect, i.e. in that a dozen apostles receiving the gift of tongues restored the pre-Babel linguistic unity. However 12 apostles speaking languages did not remove sin or death from the earth so cannot be said to have reversed the fall or restored Adam. The proof that it did not is shown by Christ still promising Eden as a future event in Rev2:7.

Sorry, "restore all things" means "restore all things" - not just pre-Babel languages.

Pentecost didn't restore Adam, in that he's still as cold stone dead as Abraham, David, and (now) Peter and Paul.
God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 06:07 AM
I don't know what to say to you since your "futurist" glasses seem to be preventing you from seeing the spiritual blessings we have in Christ now.


I have my heavenly glasses on so that I can see the future as God tells it.
I do not have blinkers on that stop me from seeing the whole picture.

John 3:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


Are we not redeemed now? Yes
Has not the Holy Spirit been given to us when we come to faith in Christ? Yes
Is Jesus not ruling from heaven in His kingdom which is spiritual in the lives of those who are His? No the ruler of this world is Satan and Jesus sent us a helper to guide us while we are still here.

It is the Holy Spirit the comforter which we have and He guides us into an understanding and knowledge of God's word. he leads us and quides us through out our walk with Christ.

John14:25-29
25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
29 “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.

As priests of Christ are not we able to come boldly before the throne of grace now, where Jesus Hiimself intercedes on our behalf? Yes

dizzy[/quote]Upon studying this verse I believe this is talking about the tribulation where those who do not believe in Christ who is that prophet and they will not hear Him will be destroyed from among the people being the true believers. And then restitution of all things will happen, Israel will be restored as witnesses among the nations and Christ will be King over the earth in the millennial kingdom.

The scroll that the Lamb opens is the title deed to the earth the seals, trumpet, and bowls are His judgement on the wicked of the earth whilst He takes back all authority and His Kingdom.
[/quote]



Jesus received the kingdom when He ascended to the throne of His Father. This is what Daniel saw in his vision in 7:13. It is those who believe who have the testimony of Jesus - which testimony is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10). What is being revealed is what Jesus as the Christ has accomplished and is continuing to bring to fruition even now.

Until we can see Revelation as it applies to those in the 1st Avent and forward, I think we are missing a lot that would bring us into a fuller knowledge of who He is. If we instead spend our time trying to imagine things we think are not fulfilled, what is that going to do to the Hope we have in His return?
What I see happening is that we want to give unbelieving Israel a hope they do not have, but in doing this we have to deny what Jesus has already accomplished for us.


Deuteronomy 11:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=11&verse=21&version=49&context=verse)
so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth.

It is not I who give the Israelites this hope it is God, and Jesus is not deniedanything that is due to Him because Israel has to repent and return to their Messiah before any of this can happen.

Numbers 23:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=23&verse=19&version=49&context=verse)
" God is not a man, that He should lie,Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it?Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Isaiah 10:19-21
19 Then the rest of the trees of his forest
Will be so few in number
That a child may write them.
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.

Jeremiah 31:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=31&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
“At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”




Revelation was given to a people under persecution to give them hope and strength to overcome in the times they were in - that last generation of Israel which saw Messiah's arrival to bring in a spiritual kingdom, a new covenant and a new power by which to live; so that we could be reconciled to God by grace thru faith in what Christ has done. It is Jesus as the Christ that is being revealed to us, and it is not about a future hope for a future generation in Israel who continues to reject Jesus. The blessing this book contains is for those who look to Jesus and believe. And we are to be very careful that we neither add to those words nor take anything away that is in there, lest we lose our part in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:19).


The book of Revelation is a book of the future when the church no longer exists and God is dealing with Israel and the nations. After Revelation 3 you never hear of the church again. Revelation 4 onwards speaks of God's wrath on the earth and Israel turning to their Messiah, the 144,000 Jews who witness during the tribulation, those saved in the tribulation and those who are beheaded for their belief in the tribulation. Not once do you hear the church mentioned other than the 24 elders on the thrones or worshiping God and the Lamb. I see the future and the picture painted is not a pretty one.

Revelation 1:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.



I know many say that eschatology is not about "salvation issues", but that warning alone tells us it is. The book of life, the right to eat from the tree of life, the living waters and the New Jerusalem, are all about the hope that we have now. We must hold fast to our hope by faith if we are to have a part in these things that await us when He returns - and brings our salvation.

Do we not have salvation now? Have not our sins already been forgiven? Have we not already been delivered from our sins by what Christ done for us on the cross?

He is not bringing salvation with Him when He returns. He is bringing judgment.

Revelation 6:17 asks who is able to stand in the day of God's wrath and there is only one answer given to this.

Revelation 6:17
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

So who is able to stand?

From what I gather you believe the things in Revelation have already happened to Israel. And there is no earthly reign.

If there is no earthly reign then why are there thrones of judgement? And those who have been beheaded reigning with Christ and where are they reigning from?
Those who hang of the sleeves of Israel asking to be taken to their King. Where are they when this happns?

Revelation is not a book of punishment on Israel it is a book of salvation for Israel because they repent and turn to their Messiah and punishment on those who opressed Israel and God's chosen people the believers.

Steven3
Nov 12th 2007, 06:35 AM
Hi Shirley

From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.He comes back and by coming back puts death under his feet. If we follow 15:20-25 then death isn't under his feet before he leaves heaven because the dead are still dead and the living all soon will be.


We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom....I don't believe that I am already a king, or that you are already queen, or that either of us, or anyone else, is right now "reigning with Christ in his kingdom". If we were then Paul saying the below to Timothy (who was already a baptised Christian) would be meaningless:

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, then we will [future tense] also reign with him; if we deny him, then he also will [future tense] deny us;

Even in Revelation (which I am loathe to quote as none of us has any idea what the book means), "reign" is still future:

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 12th 2007, 06:43 AM
As a footnote to Dizzy's quite reasonable point.

Anyone promoting a theological paradigm or schema which has the Lord Jesus coming back to judge everyone (without exception), to divide everyone into sheep and goats, automatically requires that Christ send his angels to enter the maternity wards and kindergartens of the world and either kill or save babies. In other words any theological paradigm which doesn't allow some kind of transitional period for one generation (whether for pre-flood or post-flood lifespans) has Christ either commissioning a larger slaughter of the innocents than Herod the Great, or alternatively handing out immortality automatically below a certain age threshold.

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 06:51 AM
Thanks Dizzy...I see now where I read it wrong.



But I still don't understand what you mean by: "He will not return to His Fathers house until He has put His enemies under His feet."



1 Corinthians 15:24-26
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

This is talking about when Christ takes back the earth from atan and restores it to its former glory and He reigns for the 1000yrs. He has to reign in the millennial kingdom until all His enemies are put under His feet. At the end of the millennial reign the last enemy destroyed is death at the white throne judgement.



From what Paul is saying in 1 Cor. 15, it seems that Jesus doesn't leave His Father's house until all enemies are under His feet. Then He returns from His Father's house in heaven and destroys them all, his last enemy being death.


I am affraid you are reading the passage wrong. Christ has to return so that He can put His enemies under His feet. We know He returns at the end of the tribulation this is when He reigns from.



We who are alive in Christ and physically alive on the earth are reigning with Christ in His kingdom over the kingdom of darkness in our own lives that would try to stop us from sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ with those who sit in darkness bound by the chains that the devil has them bound with, who, as we were, have no hope until they turn to Jesus and He sets them free.

Shirley

No my dear we are not reigning with Christ at this moment. Satan is reigning in this world at the moment. We are commissioned to spread the gospel message we can not bind Satan and his demonds. Yes as christians we are apart of Christ's kingdom which is in us.

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 07:03 AM
Hi Shirley
He comes back and by coming back puts death under his feet. If we follow 15:20-25 then death isn't under his feet before he leaves heaven because the dead are still dead and the living all soon will be.

I don't believe that I am already a king, or that you are already queen, or that either of us, or anyone else, is right now "reigning with Christ in his kingdom". If we were then Paul saying the below to Timothy (who was already a baptised Christian) would be meaningless:

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, then we will [future tense] also reign with him; if we deny him, then he also will [future tense] deny us;

Even in Revelation (which I am loathe to quote as none of us has any idea what the book means), "reign" is still future:

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

God bless
Steven

Hi Steven,
I find the book of Revelation a wonderful book to study and with studying this book you see the things of the book unfolding. It is not a hard book to understand. I use to be affraid of this book only because I didn't understand it. A good way to understand this book is to allow the Holy spirit to guide you through the book. But this book of Revelation is also portraited in other books of the bible aswell. So you need to bring all books together to understand this one book.

Steven3
Nov 12th 2007, 07:46 AM
Hi Dizz
Hi Steven,
I find the book of Revelation a wonderful book to study and with studying this book you see the things of the book unfolding. It is not a hard book to understand. I use to be affraid of this book only because I didn't understand it. It's not that I am "afraid" of the book, it's that symbols and prophecies are not the place to find basic answers to life and death 101.


So you need to bring all books together to understand this one book.Fine in theory, problem is, call me a sceptic, but I've nver yet met a Christian who was willing to put in the hours in the OT that that would require. ;) Besides, in your case, the view that you're presenting, that Abraham is still waiting for what he was promised, and that Israel still has a role in prophecy, is well supported from the other 65 books, so there's no need to resort to Revelation.

God bless
Steven

enarchay
Nov 12th 2007, 08:37 AM
My view is that Jesus' death and resurrection brought about the long awaited return from exile and the renewal of Israel, but in quite a different way than expected. Israel was renewed in the formation of a Jew-Gentile community where the Spirit of God personally dwells.

The Son of Man figure of Daniel ascends to the Ancient of Days to receive a Kingdom that he hands over to his people. Jesus interprets this in light of his death, resurrection, and ascension.
"And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mar 14:62).

"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mat 26:64).

"Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God" (Luk 22:69).

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mar 9:1).

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Mat 16:28).

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God" (Luk 9:27).
Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God, but he sees the Kingdom as coming from the future backward into his present through his ministry.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Mat 12:28).

"And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you" (Luk 10:9).

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you" (Luk 11:20).

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luk 17:21).
Jesus was bringing God's justice to Earth through his ministry, death, resurrection, and sending of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus currently reigns, the problem is that he has not yet defeated all his enemies. The Psalm so often quoted of Jesus' Lordship reads thus:
"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies" (Psa 110:1-2).
Jesus reigns in the midst of his enemies at the very moment he sits at the right hand of God. Jesus' reign is progressive. The last enemy that will be defeated is death.

On the other hand, the Kingdom of God is spoken of as future because the renewal of creation that the here-and-now Kingdom of God, renewed Spirit-filled community represents has not yet completed. The Kingdom will fully come through resurrection. This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the "the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19).

N.T. Wright makes the most sense of all this. He explains that resurrection was to take place in the age to come. However, the resurrection was split into two: Jesus first then the rest of his people. Therefore, Jesus' resurrection inagurated the new age and the Kingdom of God. We are at, perhaps, the overlap of two ages. The renewal of Israel has happened through Jesus' resurrection; Jesus' temple was destroyed, but re-created on the third day. Now we are the Temple of God as the body of Christ (1Co 3:16; cf. Joh 2:19).

As for the geographic land of Israel, a woman once said to Jesus, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship" (Joh 4:19) but receives the answer "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. ... But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him" (Joh 4:21, 23). Our citizenship is in the Jerusalem from above, the mother of us all, God's Kingdom which is in and from Heaven, not geographic Jerusalem.

I believe the Jew does has the advantage (Rom 3:1-2), but I do not believe geographic Israel has any role in prophecy anymore, and that is precisely what made Jesus' message so profound.

N.T. Wright has a lot to say about Jesus' teachings (specifically, parables), moreover. Most of them, according to Wright, are about YHWH's return to Zion, not with thunder and cosmic destruction, but with a young, ordinary looking man riding into Jerusalem on a donkey in tears. Wright explains in a conversation with Dunn:
"I believe, as a historian and as a Christian, that when Jesus came to Jerusalem on that last journey and told stories about a king or a master coming back to see what was going on and to judge people, what he had in mind was to explain what he was doing in coming at last to challenge Jerusalem and to explain it by means of telling stories about YHWH returning to Zion. In other words, as I think I say at one key point in the book (I’d love to know what Jimmy thinks of this), when you go back to the Exodus narratives, YHWH is there as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night with the Israelites in the
wilderness. Isaiah 40:5 says:

Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together” (NASB).

But it remains an open question as to what that’s going to look like. I believe, and have argued in detail, that Jesus believed that those prophecies of the return of YHWH, the glory of the Lord returning to Zion would not look like a whirlwind, a fire, Ezekiel’s dynamo picture, but would look like a young Jewish prophet riding in tears on a donkey and going off to have a last meal with his friends and die on a cross. In other words, I think Jesus was telling stories about God coming back to explain his own return to Jerusalem. That’s where I find very deep and rich, and very, very high Christology in the mind of Jesus himself, which then gives me a bridge to understand all the other hints which have been picked up in other bits of the tradition.

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 01:14 PM
Hi DizzIt's not that I am "afraid" of the book, it's that symbols and prophecies are not the place to find basic answers to life and death 101.

Fine in theory, problem is, call me a sceptic, but I've nver yet met a Christian who was willing to put in the hours in the OT that that would require. ;) Besides, in your case, the view that you're presenting, that Abraham is still waiting for what he was promised, and that Israel still has a role in prophecy, is well supported from the other 65 books, so there's no need to resort to Revelation.

God bless
Steven

So do we just leave Revelation out of the equation when it is a vital part of prophecy?

John146
Nov 12th 2007, 11:07 PM
I believe that the land will be given after to Israel after Christ returns. In the new heavens and earth the land will just be better.

Then you're saying the land they're given when Christ returns is not an everlasting possession because it will be burned up. Remember, in 2 Peter 3:10-12 it says the entire earth will be burned up. So, I guess the land they receive when Christ returns isn't so everlasting afterall, right? So, that would mean that they won't truly receive their everlasting land until this earth is burned up and the new earth is ushered in? The new earth could either be this earth made new or even a brand new earth. I would lean towards the former being the case. Either way, the land you say Israel will receive at Christ's return is not everlasting. Only the land on the new earth will be everlasting. So, if Israel truly will receive everlasting land as a possession it could not happen until the new earth appears. Yet, the new earth is not just for Israelite believers but for all believers. Peter was speaking to Jew and Gentile believers when He said "we...look for new heavens and a new earth".

John146
Nov 12th 2007, 11:19 PM
Hi Shirley
He comes back and by coming back puts death under his feet. If we follow 15:20-25 then death isn't under his feet before he leaves heaven because the dead are still dead and the living all soon will be.

I don't believe that I am already a king, or that you are already queen, or that either of us, or anyone else, is right now "reigning with Christ in his kingdom". If we were then Paul saying the below to Timothy (who was already a baptised Christian) would be meaningless:

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, then we will [future tense] also reign with him; if we deny him, then he also will [future tense] deny us;

Even in Revelation (which I am loathe to quote as none of us has any idea what the book means), "reign" is still future:

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

God bless
Steven

Steven,

You seem to have overlooked the following passage where John speaks of reigning with Christ as kings and priests as a present reality at the time he wrote the book.

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - Revelation 1:5-6

How can we be kings and priests unto God the Father and not be reigning with Christ? Here is another passage that says we reign with Him now:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) - Romans 5:13-17

This says we reign in life by Jesus Christ. Because of the grace of God and Christ's sacrifice for our sins, we are able to reign with Him in this life right now. We currently "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:6). Christ's kingdom is not of this world and does not come with observation. We reign with Him spiritually. He has no interest in anyone reigning with Him in some earthly kingdom. He wants to reign with us in our hearts through His Spirit. God desires that we fellowship with Him and worship Him "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24).

Eric

John146
Nov 12th 2007, 11:28 PM
The book of Revelation is a book of the future when the church no longer exists and God is dealing with Israel and the nations. After Revelation 3 you never hear of the church again. Revelation 4 onwards speaks of God's wrath on the earth and Israel turning to their Messiah, the 144,000 Jews who witness during the tribulation, those saved in the tribulation and those who are beheaded for their belief in the tribulation. Not once do you hear the church mentioned other than the 24 elders on the thrones or worshiping God and the Lamb. I see the future and the picture painted is not a pretty one.

None of the early church fathers shared your interpretation. The church is actually mentioned throughout the book of Revelation. Just because the word church isn't used specifically doesn't mean it is not mentioned. If "the saints" aren't the church then who are they? If "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Rev 6:9) does not refer to those in the church then who is it referring to? If "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were" (Rev 6:11) is not referring to the church then who is it referring to? If "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" is not referring to the church then who are they? When Jesus says in Revelation 16:15, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.", who is He talking to or about when He speaks of "he that watcheth and keepeth his garments"?

Eric

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 12:17 AM
Hi John 14:6

Steven,

You seem to have overlooked the following passage where John speaks of reigning with Christ as kings and priests as a present reality at the time he wrote the book.We seem to be speaking different languages ;)

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them kings (*KJV, or a kingdom) and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

"make someone a king"

and

"reign"

are two different things. Two different verbs. One has already happened, the other hasn't happened yet.





This says we reign in life by Jesus Christ. Because of the grace of God and Christ's sacrifice for our sins, we are able to reign with Him in this life right now. We currently "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:6). Christ's kingdom is not of this world and does not come with observation. We reign with Him spiritually. He has no interest in anyone reigning with Him in some earthly kingdom. A bit presumptuous to say that Christ has no interest in a fuller fulfillment of his kingdom, when we've just read this:

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

And again why does Paul say "shall reign (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G936&Version=kjv)" future?

This assumption of what Christ is not interested in is based on only half the NT "kingdom" verses. Yes, I fully realise that many Christians do not see the need for Christ to come back and fix famine, death, injustice and sin in this world. Nevertheless there is no need to force an artificial choice between a present kingdom only or a future kingdom only, rather than seeing both as parts of the "restoration of all things". Speaking of which, yes, the "gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one", a great verse, a great future tense verse, which like your avatar John 14:6 also has ultimate reference to the future "restoration of all things", not least of which the resurrection of dead people, including Abraham that God promised land to.

God bless
S.



*(at least according to Rev1:5 KJV and Textus Receptus, older Greek manuscripts say "kingdom of priests" following OT usage)

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 12:33 AM
Hi Dizzy :)
I'm just saying that good points you're making are more convincing from the other 26 NT books, simply because there is less symbology involved. Relatively speaking - since all 26, even Luke and Acts, still contain sections at a level of allegory and symbology high above what we're used to as Anglo-Saxons.


Hi Enarchay
Exceptional post!:pp Though it shouldn't be, any of us should be able to produce a similar reconciliation, a balanced, rounded view, of both the present/past tense "kingdom" verses and the future tense "kingdom" verses, simply by opening a concordance and following the concept through the NT.
God bless
Steven


My view is that Jesus' death and resurrection brought about the long awaited return from exile and the renewal of Israel, but in quite a different way than expected. Israel was renewed in the formation of a Jew-Gentile community where the Spirit of God personally dwells.


The Son of Man figure of Daniel ascends to the Ancient of Days to receive a Kingdom that he hands over to his people. Jesus interprets this in light of his death, resurrection, and ascension.
"And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mar 14:62).

"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mat 26:64).

"Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God" (Luk 22:69).

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mar 9:1).

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Mat 16:28).

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God" (Luk 9:27).

Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God, but he sees the Kingdom as coming from the future backward into his present through his ministry.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Mat 12:28).

"And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you" (Luk 10:9).

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you" (Luk 11:20).

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luk 17:21).

Jesus was bringing God's justice to Earth through his ministry, death, resurrection, and sending of the Holy Spirit.


Jesus currently reigns, the problem is that he has not yet defeated all his enemies. The Psalm so often quoted of Jesus' Lordship reads thus:
"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies" (Psa 110:1-2).

Jesus reigns in the midst of his enemies at the very moment he sits at the right hand of God. Jesus' reign is progressive. The last enemy that will be defeated is death.

On the other hand, the Kingdom of God is spoken of as future because the renewal of creation that the here-and-now Kingdom of God, renewed Spirit-filled community represents has not yet completed. The Kingdom will fully come through resurrection. This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the "the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God" (Rom 8:19).

N.T. Wright makes the most sense of all this. He explains that resurrection was to take place in the age to come. However, the resurrection was split into two: Jesus first then the rest of his people. Therefore, Jesus' resurrection inagurated the new age and the Kingdom of God. We are at, perhaps, the overlap of two ages. The renewal of Israel has happened through Jesus' resurrection; Jesus' temple was destroyed, but re-created on the third day. Now we are the Temple of God as the body of Christ (1Co 3:16; cf. Joh 2:19).

As for the geographic land of Israel, a woman once said to Jesus, "Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship" (Joh 4:19) but receives the answer "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. ... But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him" (Joh 4:21, 23). Our citizenship is in the Jerusalem from above, the mother of us all, God's Kingdom which is in and from Heaven, not geographic Jerusalem.

I believe the Jew does has the advantage (Rom 3:1-2), but I do not believe geographic Israel has any role in prophecy anymore, and that is precisely what made Jesus' message so profound.


N.T. Wright has a lot to say about Jesus' teachings (specifically, parables), moreover. Most of them, according to Wright, are about YHWH's return to Zion, not with thunder and cosmic destruction, but with a young, ordinary looking man riding into Jerusalem on a donkey in tears. Wright explains in a conversation with Dunn:
"I believe, as a historian and as a Christian, that when Jesus came to Jerusalem on that last journey and told stories about a king or a master coming back to see what was going on and to judge people, what he had in mind was to explain what he was doing in coming at last to challenge Jerusalem and to explain it by means of telling stories about YHWH returning to Zion. In other words, as I think I say at one key point in the book (I’d love to know what Jimmy thinks of this), when you go back to the Exodus narratives, YHWH is there as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night with the Israelites in the
wilderness. Isaiah 40:5 says:

Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
And all flesh will see it together” (NASB).

But it remains an open question as to what that’s going to look like. I believe, and have argued in detail, that Jesus believed that those prophecies of the return of YHWH, the glory of the Lord returning to Zion would not look like a whirlwind, a fire, Ezekiel’s dynamo picture, but would look like a young Jewish prophet riding in tears on a donkey and going off to have a last meal with his friends and die on a cross. In other words, I think Jesus was telling stories about God coming back to explain his own return to Jerusalem. That’s where I find very deep and rich, and very, very high Christology in the mind of Jesus himself, which then gives me a bridge to understand all the other hints which have been picked up in other bits of the tradition.


*btw - is this latter chunk of interview from "Jesus remembered"?

jewel4Christ
Nov 13th 2007, 01:35 AM
Steven,

You seem to have overlooked the following passage where John speaks of reigning with Christ as kings and priests as a present reality at the time he wrote the book.

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - Revelation 1:5-6

How can we be kings and priests unto God the Father and not be reigning with Christ? Here is another passage that says we reign with Him now:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) - Romans 5:13-17

This says we reign in life by Jesus Christ. Because of the grace of God and Christ's sacrifice for our sins, we are able to reign with Him in this life right now. We currently "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:6). Christ's kingdom is not of this world and does not come with observation. We reign with Him spiritually. He has no interest in anyone reigning with Him in some earthly kingdom. He wants to reign with us in our hearts through His Spirit. God desires that we fellowship with Him and worship Him "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24).

Eric

AMEN......;)

This is how I view it, too.


When Christ began to reign over this earth, through His victory on the cross, over the god of this world....and, we come to Him, by faith, as He is our PRESENT KING, we reign with Him, on earth, now.


We are His present priesthood, temples made without hands....reigning with Him in peace/love/joy/patience/longsuffering/and, all the other fruits that we are known and set apart by, from this present evil world, that is still in bondage to the lustful flesh...that we once walked in.

Praise be to God, whom has rescued us, (it is not some future event)

WE are free now.


peaceandlove,

janet

losthorizon
Nov 13th 2007, 02:02 AM
AMEN......;)

This is how I view it, too.


When Christ began to reign over this earth, through His victory on the cross, over the god of this world....and, we come to Him, by faith, as He is our PRESENT KING, we reign with Him, on earth, now.


We are His present priesthood, temples made without hands....reigning with Him in peace/love/joy/patience/longsuffering/and, all the other fruits that we are known and set apart by, from this present evil world, that is still in bondage to the lustful flesh...that we once walked in.

Praise be to God, whom has rescued us, (it is not some future event)

WE are free now.


peaceandlove,

janet
I will second that "amen". In the 1st Century, God’s kingdom among physical Israel was transferred to a “new nation,” the spiritual Israel of God made up of both Jew and Gentile (Galatians 6:16). Peter told those believers of his day, ”...for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:11).

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 02:12 AM
This is the only present tense use of "reign (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G936&Version=kjv)" relating to believers now:

1 Co 4:8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!

All the others are future tense.

Which is why, turning back to the OP, Abraham is not yet "reigning" on the land God promised personally "to you [Abraham]".
God bless
S.

jewel4Christ
Nov 13th 2007, 02:28 AM
I will second that "amen". In the 1st Century, God’s kingdom among physical Israel was transferred to a “new nation,” the spiritual Israel of God made up of both Jew and Gentile (Galatians 6:16). Peter told those believers of his day, ”...for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:11). http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1439037)

Yep.

The kingdom of God did not come with observation...it is seen by faith.

Faith is that which is unseen.

We reign with Him now, in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=6&v=12&version=KJV#12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Rom 15:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=15&v=12&version=KJV#12) And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. 1Cr 4:8 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=4&v=8&version=KJV#8) Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. 1Cr 15:25 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Cr&c=15&v=25&version=KJV#25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 2Ti 2:12 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Ti&c=2&v=12&version=KJV#12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us: Rev 5:10 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rev&c=5&v=10&version=KJV#10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

peaceandlove,


janet

losthorizon
Nov 13th 2007, 02:44 AM
This is the only present tense use of "reign (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G936&Version=kjv)" relating to believers now:

1 Co 4:8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!

All the others are future tense.

Which is why, turning back to the OP, Abraham is not yet "reigning" on the land God promised personally "to you [Abraham]".
God bless
S.
The Son of God has been reigning over his kingdom since the day of Pentecost and Christians from that day until today and from this day until the end of the age will reign with the Christ “in the heavenly places”…
“…but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus (Eph 2 4-6). There is no future “land promise” for the physical Hebrew nation. They lost their claim to the land as a result of their rebellion against the God of Abraham (Josh 23:15-16). The hope (and the only hope) for the physical Jew today is the same hope for the Gentile – and that hope is found in the gospel of Christ…
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith (Romans 1:16-17).

enarchay
Nov 13th 2007, 03:25 AM
I think there is a difference between Christ's present reign (his receiving of his Kingdom from the Ancient of Days upon ascent and our sharing in his reign in the here-and-now) and the future renewal of creation (i.e. the full, complete coming of the Kingdom of God). We must differentiate between the two. Christ's reign is progressive (as in Mark 4:31, the Kingdom of God is compared with a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, but progressively grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants): he ascends to the right hand of God and reigns in the midst of his enemies (Psa 110:1-2; cf. 1Co 15:25-26). The final enemy to be defeated is death, and when death is defeated, God's Kingdom will be complete and set up on a renewed Earth where enemies no longer exist. I do not see how this view, however, fits in with premillennialism. Premillennialism, in my opinion, turns Jesus into the revolutionary, Roman-slaying Messiah the first century Jews expected but did not see, rather than the historical Jesus who defeated the forces of evil that work behind earthly enemies, including Rome, establishing a Kingdom on Earth not by physical, military revolution, but by the establishment of a community – a renewed Israel –in the formation of a New Covenant (which itself is a foreshadow of the renewal of creation), by the calling of the Gentiles, and especially the sending of the Spirit, but also in the proclamation of God's justice and love, the institution of God's judgment on rebellious Jerusalem through the Romans (something completely unexpected by first century Jews), and finally the defeat of the early church's most fiercest of enemies, Rome, through its conversion to Christianity. I think we must either place the 1000-year reign of Revelation in the context of the establishment of a renewed Spirit-filled community, the church, especially in relation to the conversion of Rome to the religion it once persecuted, or admit John's vision does not correspond with the other texts (which, perhaps, is much easier).

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 07:21 AM
Enarchay
Good post. Both, not either/or. Christ can be here now and come back.


Folks,
Lest we forget the actual verses:

Genesis 13:17 Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you.”


Genesis 15:7 And he said to him, “I am the Lord who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”

Abraham did not receive a square foot (Acts 7:5) is not "reigning" with Christ at this minute, since he is dead.

Matthew 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,

Luke 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

These verses were not fulfilled at Pentecost - they will be when Christ comes in his kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom:

Then the King will say to those on his right,

Matthew 25:34 Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

They can't inherit it if they already have all of it and there's nothing more.
God bless
Steven

John146
Nov 13th 2007, 06:07 PM
Hi John 14:6
We seem to be speaking different languages ;)

We certainly do.




Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them kings (*KJV, or a kingdom) and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

"make someone a king"

and

"reign"

are two different things. Two different verbs. One has already happened, the other hasn't happened yet.




A bit presumptuous to say that Christ has no interest in a fuller fulfillment of his kingdom, when we've just read this:

Revelation 5:10 and you have made [past perfect] them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall [future] reign on the earth.”

And again why does Paul say "shall reign (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G936&Version=kjv)" future?

If that is indeed only speaking of a future reign besides the current spiritual reign that we are experiencing then it would relate to when we dwell with Christ on the new earth in His kingdom free of sin, death, sorrow and pain. It will not be an earthly kingdom on this earth as we know it.



This assumption of what Christ is not interested in is based on only half the NT "kingdom" verses. Yes, I fully realise that many Christians do not see the need for Christ to come back and fix famine, death, injustice and sin in this world. Nevertheless there is no need to force an artificial choice between a present kingdom only or a future kingdom only, rather than seeing both as parts of the "restoration of all things". Speaking of which, yes, the "gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one", a great verse, a great future tense verse, which like your avatar John 14:6 also has ultimate reference to the future "restoration of all things", not least of which the resurrection of dead people, including Abraham that God promised land to.

God bless
S.

I'm fully aware that a time is coming when Christ will return and rid the world of all wickedness and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in and that will be our dwelling place for eternity. I was speaking of an earthly kingdom on this earth as we know it.

Eric

enarchay
Nov 13th 2007, 11:37 PM
Steven3, I mostly agree, but I'm not sure how much some of those passages should be extended beyond the first century. I see a fulfillment, or at least a foreshadow of the fulfillment, of the inheriting of the land in the formation of the New Covenant and calling of the Gentiles (i.e. the nations to be blessed in Abraham). Remember, Jesus is the seed of Abraham by which the nations are blessed. Maybe it refers to both: the renewal of a community and the calling of the Gentiles in the past and here-and-now and the redemption of their/our bodies in the future.

Steven3
Nov 14th 2007, 02:52 AM
Hi Eric
If that is indeed only speaking of a future reign besides the current spiritual reign that we are experiencing then it would relate to when we dwell with Christ on the new earth in His kingdom free of sin, death, sorrow and pain. It will not be an earthly kingdom on this earth as we know it.Goodness, I would hope not! :D Was the Gen2:8 "God planted a paradise in the East" an earthly kingdom as we know it? Then why would the Rev2:7 "paradise" restored be? By the same logic when Christ "comes in his kingdom" it will have only the best aspects of Solomon's "Kingdom of Yahweh", only the best aspects of the current "kingdom of Light", and new aspects that neither Solomon's kingdom nor our "kingdom suffer violence" can imagine.

We actually agree on the big picture, it seems that we're just reading words differently. If I may I will give a verse that shows why the verb tense for "made kings" is present, but the "will reign with him" is still future :

Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus

This is a different kingdom verse, but not totally unique - about half of the dozen clear present kingdom verses are actually about persecution, waiting, suffering violence. And I think that's where my reservation about trying to pull the "reign with Christ" from the future verses into the here and no. In a word, they clash. The present tense kingdom verses do have upbeat notes - the kingdom of Light in Col.1 for example - yet generally the verses like Rev1:9 are more typical. The present kingdom is wonderful in many aspects, Christ has triumphed over sin, he has prepared a "reward", a "citizenship" in heaven, and he will deliver that - but nevertheless the actual present day kingdom verses in the NT are not all roses, most are about enduring. If you don't believe me check, tabulate the "theirs is the kingdom of heaven" verses with the "will inherit the earth" verses. The kingdom now involves tribulation and patient endurance, as above.



Hi Enarchay

Steven3, I mostly agree, but I'm not sure how much some of those passages should be extended beyond the first century. I see a fulfillment, or at least a foreshadow of the fulfillment, of the inheriting of the land in the formation of the New Covenant and calling of the Gentiles (i.e. the nations to be blessed in Abraham). Remember, Jesus [I]is the seed of Abraham by which the nations are blessed. Maybe it refers to both: the renewal of a community and the calling of the Gentiles in the past and here-and-now and the redemption of their/our bodies in the future. Yes, I think that's a very reasonable observation, clearly if Galatians shows Gentile seed, over the whole earth, then that is as much a fulfillment of "land" as Joshua's taking Canaan. Although of course Abraham ("I will give this land to you and your descendants") was equally dead for both events, so Stephen's Acts 7:5 comment is still left hanging.

Though there are two complicating factors that make it problematic to sift out the different temporal aspects.

i. dual fulfillment - this concept, while part of the Mosaic test for a true prophet - is a methodology for reading prophecy (and promise is partly a subset of prophecy) that doesn't sit well with either Jews or Christians. For example many Jews believe the 700BC "Immanuel" was the only fulfillment - and that Hezekiah was the only Messiah Israel would ever have. Likewise many Christians are repulsed by the idea of there being a foreshadow-Immanuel who was an infant when Pekin and Rezah died, despite the fact that Isaiah dates the infancy of the child to Tiglath-Pileser's expansion into Damascus and Samaria. Now again, on this thread, (or perhaps moreso on the 1948 thread, which should be the 1967 thread ;)) the methodology of dual fulfillment is critical not just to sifting out the overlapping sections of Olivet (which bits are AD70, which bits are Second Coming, which bits are both?), but also sifting out the overlapping elements of the Abrahamic promise (which bits concern Isaac, which Jesus of Nazareth, which Christ the King of Kings? ... and again for the other land and sand/stars prophecies)

ii. achronological priority - again a concept which doesn't sit well with either Jews or Christians. For example the Pharisees blowing a fuse when Christ claimed that "Abraham saw my day", because they either weren't listening carefully and heard "I saw Abraham's day", or they were listening carefully and realised that Christ was making Abraham, and the promise to Abraham, subject to himself - a claim as outrageous to the Pharisees as David saying "Yahweh said to my Adonai ...why then does David call him lord?". This idea of achronological priority - the descendant/seed/offspring being greater than the ancestor, and "from the foundation of the world" being "before" even Adam, let alone Abraham and David is obviously critical to this thread on Everlasting Land Covenant, because it would help balance between two extremes - overphysicalizing the Palestinian/Jewish element, and totally denying it. The promise to Abraham was not a random afterthought by God, it was a revealing of the Logos in the Beginning, the Lamb crucified from before the foundation of the world. This in my mind is the main problem with "dispensational" and "anti-dispensational" thinking, since in God's purpose the New Gospel (using that term to distinguish from the OT use of Gospel meaning physical Abrahamic promises) precedes the promise to Abraham, not comes as an add-on.

Sorry about the verbiage ;)
S.

wpm
Dec 8th 2007, 11:35 PM
No my dear we are not reigning with Christ at this moment. Satan is reigning in this world at the moment. We are commissioned to spread the gospel message we can not bind Satan and his demonds. Yes as christians we are apart of Christ's kingdom which is in us.

I feel the Premil doctrine tends to overlook our spiritual standing in Christ upon salvation - when it comes to eschatology. It gives Satan too much credit.

Romans 5:17 says, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

The people of God, being “in Christ,” have entered into the victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God.

The word "shall" in the King James Version doesn't actually appear in the original but is added by the translators. The text should be interpreted, "they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

Anyway, all men physically are either “in life” or “in death” physically. There is no in-between. To “reign in life” is to physically be among “the quick” (or the living), whereas, to be dead is to have already departed this scene of time to the next.

Ephesians 2:6 tells us how Christ, “hath raised us (the Church) up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory.

The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Romans 8:16-18 says,“The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].”

As we can see, we are currently "joint-heirs with Christ." We reign because He reigns. When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore His kingship and were placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Regards,

Paul

Merton
Dec 9th 2007, 01:07 PM
It is Christ alone who has overcome and sat down on the right hand of God UNTIL His enemies are all placed under His feet--

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing thatis not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


The similar mistake is often made concerning other statements made of Jesus as if they were all in place now such as the saints reigning with Him over the nations which is future according to the book of Daniel where the little horn must be destroyed at Armageddon before the saints reign with Christ over the nations begins proper.

The fact that Christ has included us who are Gods children through Him, to now sit with Him in His Throne, does not suggest that we reign over the world as His Father presently does in oversight, or over the Church as Jesus does, but only that we are His instruments upon earth through whom He reigns as He decides to express it from time to time.

Only in that sense do we now reign and not continuously, as also in our personal life, and are instructed to come totally to enter into the rest of His Throne, ceasing our own self works which are many and varied in order that we may be found worthy to reign over the nations with Him after the resurrection when He returns, which is the whole point of the book of Daniel when Babylon is finally judged, for indeed all of those in Christ regardless of their origin of religion or race are Gods very own children, the only people of God on earth.

No one else has anything to do with it. All those who are IN Christ are Gods people and all those who are not in Christ are not Gods people but may become so if not reprobate beyond redemption.(such as multiple murderers and multiple rapists and also warmongers)


Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations, and Romans gives it that he will inherit the whole world in the future, not a small section through which God gave lessons of the future, even though a certain section of humanity will live there where Christ will be, but not seen personally except by the resurrected, lest mortal man should die.

Only after the resurrection will it finally be accomplished (Isaiah 66:7 on.)that the resurrected saints as the Mother of Zions children (Isaiah ch 49) will lead a new peoples not yet born into the "promised land" of a world under the dominion of Christ with His saints, and it is not a forgone conclusion that all who believe now will be members of that Mother Zion for the warnings of the Bible are clearly relevent to believers that they must overcome as Christ overcame in order to reign with Him (Rev.3:12 Rev.3:21) and overcoming is not by being born from above alone, as it was also not for Him either. Overcoming is something which the believers must approach and continue in AFTER they are born from above.
It is not something due to Christs sacrifice alone, for we are bid to die to this world with Him after receiving the free gift of salvation which is the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

And the lifestyle of 1 Cor ch 4 is the supreme evidence of any reigning in our times, which no man can pretend that he or she is as such now when they are not, for we live in this present age as Christ lived and died if we are really living in the Spirit of the age to come, as so many claim to be, but there is yet time.

Merton.

Firstfruits
Dec 9th 2007, 01:49 PM
One thing I can't understand clearly, from the dispensational viewpoint that believes Israel's land promise is an unconditional everlasting land covenant, is this.

If, and just for discussion purposes, let's say 1948 begins the everlasting land covenant and fulfillment of the promise. Let's say from 1948 until the aeons of time eternal future, forevermore.....Israel will continue to posess the land they presently have held since 1948.

Even in this very optimistic scenerio, it is not a fulfillment of the everlasting land promise to Abraham.

From 1948 going back 2000 years to Christ, and then going back another 1400 years to Abraham (3400 years roughly), Israel did not hold the land as an everlasting possession. Most of that 3400 years, Israel either possessed a portion of the land, or none of the land.

For the land promise to Abraham to have truly been 'everlasting', then from the time of Abraham forward, including the last 3400 years), Israel should have been in possession of that land.

Since that hasn't been the case, it seems clear to me, that the intent of the promise was different that what Dispensationalism tends to want to make it out to be.

How can 3400 missing years of possession fit with a claimed literal everlasting possession of land?

This present Jerusalem is not everlasting.

Heb 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 02:55 PM
Firstfruits,

You are correct. But, do you actual understand what Heb. 13:14 is talking about?

Will we see physical temple built in earthly Jerusalem at second advent?

Second, will this old Jerusalem to be still survived and exist beyond second advent?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!