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I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 03:06 PM
My mom watches him and turned me onto his Sunday morning show. Once you get past all the peddling of wares (that drives me bonkers!), I find that I am really drawn to his messages. As a rule I normally do not watch TV evangelists. Most of them seem to be in it for earthly treasure (big paychecks, homes, fancy cars, etc). I do not know much about him, so I was wondering what the general consensus is about him. Is his show worth DVRing every week (I am supposed to be getting ready for church, but I am sick)? Do you think that he is a messenger of God? Thanks!

ChristsCourage
Nov 4th 2007, 03:11 PM
I love him. I think he is a messenger of GOD. GOD wants him to preach the good word, and, John is doing a great job.

<removed link due to "donations" tab>

Quickened
Nov 4th 2007, 03:11 PM
I used to watch him. I dont find him to be biblical.

Heres a link you can check out if you are interested (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html#jhagee). I am not going to make an argument for or against. I just dont like him.

poorinspirit
Nov 4th 2007, 03:47 PM
I would advise not looking to any televangelist to shepherd you.

Use the King James Bible and ask the Lord Jesus for wisdom in understanding His Word and trust Him to be Your Good Shepherd. That is the whole point of having a relationship with Him is getting to know Him through His Words.

John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41I receive not honour from men. 42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

So it is better to place your trust in the Lord than in those that are on television or in the pulpit. They can lead you astray, but Jesus will not.

I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 03:56 PM
I do not look for them to shepherd me as much as I like to find things that edify me other than just reading. I also listen to the Bible Experience CDs and stuff. I am an auditory learner, so reading the Bible often does not do anything for me unless there is an audio message with it. I pray before I read, but that does not necessarily mean I retain it. People learn and retain information in different ways, I cannot retain anything unless I hear it.

PS. Why does he do the Vulcan sign when he prays

Quickened
Nov 4th 2007, 04:05 PM
Heres an interesting thread that i accidentally stumbled upon while looking at another message board.

Here is the Video i wanted to add. (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868)

I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 04:09 PM
I have never read his books, I rarely read at all except the Bible (because of my aforementioned problem), but it always bothers me when these evangelists write books and sell their sermons. If they were not in it for the money why would they not just offer the CDs and DVDs for free? Or for the cost of shipping? The cost of making a CD or DVD is under .50 cents, so why charge so much for it? Jesus did not charge money for his sermons or healings. Just some food for thought.

Quickened
Nov 4th 2007, 04:11 PM
Here is another link (http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp) for the book if anyone is interested.

"Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Messiah?" I John 2:22

amazzin
Nov 4th 2007, 04:22 PM
My mom watches him and turned me onto his Sunday morning show. Once you get past all the peddling of wares (that drives me bonkers!), I find that I am really drawn to his messages. As a rule I normally do not watch TV evangelists. Most of them seem to be in it for earthly treasure (big paychecks, homes, fancy cars, etc). I do not know much about him, so I was wondering what the general consensus is about him. Is his show worth DVRing every week (I am supposed to be getting ready for church, but I am sick)? Do you think that he is a messenger of God? Thanks!

He is a very charasmatic preacher. I no longer listen to him becasue of his views of Isreal and the Palestinian people. He is way off base on this dividing issue

I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 04:28 PM
So basically he thinks that Jewish people do not need to accept Christ to get into heaven? I'm sorry, I tend to glaze over after reading for a bit. Everyone, including the Jews, have to accept him, right?

I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 04:35 PM
Heres an interesting thread that i accidentally stumbled upon while looking at another message board.



Whoa! The fiance' and I were here discussing Hagee this morning and I said that while I can take a good message away from his preachings, I do not trust him. I get a knot in my stomach when the first ten minutes of his program is to peddle his wares. My fiance' said that taking a good message away then is good enough and I said no it is not because we are told to be weary of false prophets. Like anything else we have to be careful what we expose ourselves too.

xSTEADFASTx
Nov 4th 2007, 08:29 PM
i stay away from most tv preachers.

bayushisan
Nov 4th 2007, 09:28 PM
I find it necessary at this point to step in and say something. I actually rather like Pastor Hagee. I've read In Defense of Israel and find it to be very Biblical, although I do have some questions I'd like to ask him. His point about the Jewish people being redeemed is that it is one of God's promises. If we believe that the old Covenant is no more then not one of us can claim ANY assurance. If God can break His Word to the Jewish people then He can break it to us.

I find myself asking why it is that we, as Christians, seem to believe that servants of our Lord Jehovah aren't allowed to have nice things. Are they supposed to live in shacks and wear nothing but the most threadbare attire? Why do we do this to ourselves? All it does is promote disunity within the body and help the enemy.

I<3Jesus
Nov 4th 2007, 10:09 PM
I find it necessary at this point to step in and say something. I actually rather like Pastor Hagee. I've read In Defense of Israel and find it to be very Biblical, although I do have some questions I'd like to ask him. His point about the Jewish people being redeemed is that it is one of God's promises. If we believe that the old Covenant is no more then not one of us can claim ANY assurance. If God can break His Word to the Jewish people then He can break it to us.

Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and the only way to get to heaven is through him?


I find myself asking why it is that we, as Christians, seem to believe that servants of our Lord Jehovah aren't allowed to have nice things. Are they supposed to live in shacks and wear nothing but the most threadbare attire? Why do we do this to ourselves? All it does is promote disunity within the body and help the enemy.There is a difference between having enough and having an over abundance of earthly riches. Jesus said countless times that those who seek earthly riches will not receive them in heaven. I am not judging the man, but the ONLY people he is reaching are those who have the money to buy cable, to buy his books, to buy his taped sermons, to attend his conferences and the list goes on. The word of God shouldn't have a price tag associated with it. Those who take it and slap a price on it and peddle it under the guise of being a Godly person are false in my honest opinion. I will say it again, Jesus rose people from the dead and did not think to charge money for it (for obvious reasons) but Hagee is charging $50 to listen to a few minutes of a sermon and a ton of self advertisement.

Quickened
Nov 4th 2007, 10:20 PM
Whoa! The fiance' and I were here discussing Hagee this morning and I said that while I can take a good message away from his preachings, I do not trust him. I get a knot in my stomach when the first ten minutes of his program is to peddle his wares. My fiance' said that taking a good message away then is good enough and I said no it is not because we are told to be weary of false prophets. Like anything else we have to be careful what we expose ourselves too.

The problem with American Christianity is that a general lack of knowledge exists. People see a preacher quote some passages and when you look them up or read along as encouraged you see it is spot on. The lack of knowledge is when people dont see scripture being taken out of context or seeing that someone is theologically way off base. Its a lack of discernment. Which is why feel good preachers and the WOF movement are so prominent in our current culture.

Big T
Nov 4th 2007, 10:21 PM
i stay away from most tv preachers.I think that is wise for the most part. Sadly I only know of a couple that seem reputable.

bayushisan
Nov 4th 2007, 10:29 PM
Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and the only way to get to heaven is through him?

There is a difference between having enough and having an over abundance of earthly riches. Jesus said countless times that those who seek earthly riches will not receive them in heaven. I am not judging the man, but the ONLY people he is reaching are those who have the money to buy cable, to buy his books, to buy his taped sermons, to attend his conferences and the list goes on. The word of God shouldn't have a price tag associated with it. Those who take it and slap a price on it and peddle it under the guise of being a Godly person are false in my honest opinion. I will say it again, Jesus rose people from the dead and did not think to charge money for it (for obvious reasons) but Hagee is charging $50 to listen to a few minutes of a sermon and a ton of self advertisement.

As to your first question, yes I do believe that. Its also an interesting dodge to the concern I posted. We have it on God's Word that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. All of that is contingent on God's Word being perfectly infalible and Truthful. If God would break His covenant with the Jewish people then His Word is neither perfect or infalible. Therefore the Old Covenant must still be valid, else we are all in peril and have no assurance.

As to your second thing. I think you are wrong about Pastor Hagee and here's why. The Bible does not once say that having money is evil. It says that the LOVE of money is evil. The Bible says go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel. That means using cable, satelite, radio, satelite radio, books, dvds and cds, videogames. Every means of media available to us. I see nothing wrong with a man of God writing a book and selling it on the open market. We HAVE to stop doing this to each other as Christians. We are supposed to be united against the enemy and all we do is nitpick and finger point at anyone who has more than us. Saying "they aren't REAL Christians because they're not poor". It is absolute nonsense, it is devisive and it is of the enemy.

xSTEADFASTx
Nov 4th 2007, 10:43 PM
I think that is wise for the most part. Sadly I only know of a couple that seem reputable.

Perry Stone is solid.

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 12:20 AM
As to your first question, yes I do believe that. Its also an interesting dodge to the concern I posted. We have it on God's Word that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. All of that is contingent on God's Word being perfectly infalible and Truthful. If God would break His covenant with the Jewish people then His Word is neither perfect or infalible. Therefore the Old Covenant must still be valid, else we are all in peril and have no assurance.

I just think that when God sent his only son down to die for our sins, that trumped all other covenants. I have no clue if that is correct, but that is how I see it. I am a "new" Christian, so I do not profess to know everything (heck, anything), but I do know that the two covenant theory works against what Christ told us.


As to your second thing. I think you are wrong about Pastor Hagee and here's why. The Bible does not once say that having money is evil. It says that the LOVE of money is evil. The Bible says go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel. That means using cable, satelite, radio, satelite radio, books, dvds and cds, videogames. Every means of media available to us. I see nothing wrong with a man of God writing a book and selling it on the open market. We HAVE to stop doing this to each other as Christians. We are supposed to be united against the enemy and all we do is nitpick and finger point at anyone who has more than us. Saying "they aren't REAL Christians because they're not poor". It is absolute nonsense, it is devisive and it is of the enemy.

And you keep dodging my point that the only people he is reaching through his efforts are those who can afford his teachings. It is not a matter of asking him to live outside of the church in a card board box. How many times does Christ tell us to sell all that we own and give to the poor? I am not even suggesting that, but this man is not even reaching the poor because he choses to put a high price on the message. If he was truly following Christ's example then he would be spreading the message without a monetary string attached. If he was not in it for some monetary gain he would not charge so much for his "literature."

DaniB
Nov 5th 2007, 01:31 AM
I think that is wise for the most part. Sadly I only know of a couple that seem reputable.


Sadly, that's even questionable nowadays.

I used to watch Richard and Lindsay Roberts...well up until what 3 or 4 weeks ago? When allegations leaked out about them.

I pretty much gave up on all tv evangelists.

Heck even my former church, in the last 6 months has lost half it's members (they left and went to other churches, including most elders, and other pastors). An associate pastor cheated on his wife, (w/another woman) and get the other woman pregnant.

Even more sad, I'm beginning to not trust ANY pastors.

by a show of hands
Nov 5th 2007, 04:10 AM
I like Hagee's ministry. The ones i watch all the time is my pastor when I lived in Tulsa, OK Billy Joe Daugherty, Ron Luce and Jesse Duplantis

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 07:20 AM
I just think that when God sent his only son down to die for our sins, that trumped all other covenants. I have no clue if that is correct, but that is how I see it. I am a "new" Christian, so I do not profess to know everything (heck, anything), but I do know that the two covenant theory works against what Christ told us.



And you keep dodging my point that the only people he is reaching through his efforts are those who can afford his teachings. It is not a matter of asking him to live outside of the church in a card board box. How many times does Christ tell us to sell all that we own and give to the poor? I am not even suggesting that, but this man is not even reaching the poor because he choses to put a high price on the message. If he was truly following Christ's example then he would be spreading the message without a monetary string attached. If he was not in it for some monetary gain he would not charge so much for his "literature."

The two covenants in no way contradict Christ. The Old Covenant was not not rescinded with the crucifixtion. If it was then there is no assurance of salvation because it meant that God lied to Abraham. Israel WILL be redeemed and the Old Covenant will be fulfilled to the end of the age as God promised.

What I'm trying to say is that if God can break His Word to Abraham then not one of us has assurance in Christ, because it is based entirely on God's promises. If He can break His promises then He is not God and we are doomed.

I'm not dodging what you're saying. I'm saying that you are wrong. There are hundreds of ministries to the poor. By what you're saying you, yourself should sell everything you own and live in poverty beside the poor. That helps no one in the long run, and severely hampers your own ability to go into ALL the world.

I, myself, go into the gaming world and talk to my friends, and anyone who wants to hear, about my faith. Pastor Hagee has an international radio and television ministry. Can you imagine how many lives have been changed or people who have come to Christ because they happen to be flipping channels in a hotel room and find his program or any of the programs on channels like TBN? What you are saying doesn't hold water.
Christ told the rich young man to sell all he owned because the man was held back by his greed. Just because a person has money, that doesn't make him greedy. It just makes him, or her, successful; and that is by no means a sin for Christians. Having financial success can be a tremendous and personal blessing.

Word of faith is about obediance to God, not money. If preached correctly it says that in order to receive the overflowing blessings of Almighty God you must be in obedience to Him. That means tithing, sowing seeds when and where God tells you to, act with the loving kindness that is expected of us, and it means standing together against the works of the enemy.

We, as Christians, must stop these senseless attacks on each other just because one of us has money and others don't. One man's success is by no means an indication of his apostasy, and it is high time we stopped assuming that it is.

by a show of hands
Nov 5th 2007, 08:25 AM
So many people come down on t.v. evangelist because what they see in the media, whether that is on the t.v., internet etc. But they do not look for themselves. Just because some guy put together a t.v. program, or made a website that says this "evangelist" is a false minister because of... It is automatically correct in both the secular and christian worlds. People do not do research for themselves. The people that have done the research, you do not know what they are like, or even if they are christian or not. Even if they use scripture in their info, doesn't mean anything, they themselves could be the ones that are false ministers trying to destroy God's ministry. So unless I see first hand, meaning not from someone else's veiw point, or if I have an uneasy spirit about the minister, I am not going to count him out.

Here's another thing, if there you feel that a t.v. evangelist is corrupt, instead of bashing him and saying he is a false minister, how about praying for them, I'm sure they could use the extra prayer, that seems like the christian thing to do.

skc53
Nov 5th 2007, 10:01 AM
I agree with by a show of hands post number 23. If it weren't for t.v. evangalists, how would the older generation hear God's word? They may not be able to go to church, they may be in a nursing home, or in the hospital. My grandma before she died several years ago, wasn't able to go to church, but she watched a few of the preachers on t.v. I thank God for these ministers. Now there are some that I don't care about and the ones that I do like are John Hagee, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer, Perry Stone, Rod Parsley, Gregory Dickow. I like John Hagee, he preaches from the Bible. My dad and mom watches him to, and dad has the book In Defense of Israel. I have several of his books, and the one that I really enjoyed reading was Jerusalem Countdown. Awesome book!

Quickened
Nov 5th 2007, 12:16 PM
I agree with by a show of hands post number 23. If it weren't for t.v. evangalists, how would the older generation hear God's word?They may not be able to go to church, they may be in a nursing home, or in the hospital.

There are ministries for that. Also why does it have to be a TV evangelist? Why cant family members come to visit and fellowship and even do bible studies?


I like John Hagee, he preaches from the Bible.

This is the line of thinking I was talking about in my last post. Alot of people preach "from the bible" but that doesnt necessarily mean that everything is in proper context or that it is theologically sound.


My dad and mom watches him to, and dad has the book In Defense of Israel.

Do you believe that Jesus came to be the messiah? Hagee doesnt seem to think so. (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868) That was the topic i had brought up earlier. This is a better link (http://threshingfloor.onevoicemm.net/weblog/?p=868)

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 01:23 PM
I'm not dodging what you're saying. I'm saying that you are wrong.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but everyone I know whom I have talked to about this feels the same that I do. I am not saying it is right, but I do not come here to argue with people and I do not appreciate that you have hijacked the thread to prove you are "right."


There are hundreds of ministries to the poor.We are not talking about hundreds of ministries, we are talking about one specific one. Please stay on target.


By what you're saying you, yourself should sell everything you own and live in poverty beside the poor. That helps no one in the long run, and severely hampers your own ability to go into ALL the world.I am not the one who is taking the word of the Lord, slapping a price tag on it and peddling it ONLY to people who can afford to pay a large fee. If you think about it, the average cost of cable is $45. If you pay that a month to watch his ministry and then another $50 to own the tape then you just spent $100 to get a message that is free if you just pick up your Bible. Now I realize that he doesn't have any control over the cable bill, but he does have control over the cost of his tapes. If you think he isn't making a killing off of those alone then you are sadly mistaken, HOWEVER I am not as concerned about the money as I am that a lot of people do not hear the message because it has a hefty price tag. I can buy an entire series of Smallville episodes for the cost of ONE of his shows, half of which is made up of commercials and pleas to buy his stuff.


I, myself, go into the gaming world and talk to my friends, and anyone who wants to hear, about my faith.If your argument is that we all are given specific gifts and skills by God to reach certain people, that is cool, but Hagee has chosen to be a large voice in the Christian movement and as such will be held to a higher standard. He cannot simply chose to only preach to those who can afford it. Well he can, but that makes him questionable in my book.


Pastor Hagee has an international radio and television ministry.Who has the technology to take advantage of these things? Not poor people!


Can you imagine how many lives have been changed or people who have come to Christ because they happen to be flipping channels in a hotel room and find his program or any of the programs on channels like TBN?He may have converted a lot of people, I do not know. That is great, but if he is teaching false doctrine should those people be grateful for his influence if he is leading them down the wrong path?


What you are saying doesn't hold water.I disagree.


Christ told the rich young man to sell all he owned because the man was held back by his greed. Just because a person has money, that doesn't make him greedy.This is true and we do not know what is in Hagee's heart nor should we speculate, BUT why does he not share his message with people of all financial backgrounds? Why doesn't he share his message at cost? Surely the 18,000 people in his congregation can sustain the operating costs of the ministry. It isn't like they take additional time and man power to make these videos, they are made during his regular church services. If every single member only placed one dollar in the collection plate and there was 100% attendance that would be $18,000 for operating expenses.


It just makes him, or her, successful; and that is by no means a sin for Christians. Having financial success can be a tremendous and personal blessing.

If you are a plain old Christian that has not chosen to be a major voice in Christianity, sure. Also if you are using the money for good.


Word of faith is about obediance to God, not money. If preached correctly it says that in order to receive the overflowing blessings of Almighty God you must be in obedience to Him. That means tithing, sowing seeds when and where God tells you to, act with the loving kindness that is expected of us, and it means standing together against the works of the enemy.

Again this is sort of tangential and has nothing to do with the tide of the thread which is that Hagee preaches duality and does so ONLY to those who can afford to buy what he's preaching.


We, as Christians, must stop these senseless attacks on each other just because one of us has money and others don't. One man's success is by no means an indication of his apostasy, and it is high time we stopped assuming that it is.When you type this over and over again I instantly think of the crazed Britney fan. I understand your point, but until you entered the thread it was a pretty level headed conversation about the man's duality with a little discussion of his monetary gain.

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 01:30 PM
So many people come down on t.v. evangelist because what they see in the media, whether that is on the t.v., internet etc. But they do not look for themselves. Just because some guy put together a t.v. program, or made a website that says this "evangelist" is a false minister because of... It is automatically correct in both the secular and christian worlds. People do not do research for themselves. The people that have done the research, you do not know what they are like, or even if they are christian or not. Even if they use scripture in their info, doesn't mean anything, they themselves could be the ones that are false ministers trying to destroy God's ministry. So unless I see first hand, meaning not from someone else's veiw point, or if I have an uneasy spirit about the minister, I am not going to count him out.

The point of this thread was to learn more about him. This IS research, asking fellow Christians what they think. Would you prefer that I go ask the secular world? I got an uneasy feeling from his show, so I decided to learn more about him. If you read the entire thread then you would know that :)


Here's another thing, if there you feel that a t.v. evangelist is corrupt, instead of bashing him and saying he is a false minister, how about praying for them, I'm sure they could use the extra prayer, that seems like the christian thing to do.

I do not think we are bashing him, but I agree that praying for him is the right thing to do. However I do not think sweeping his false teachings under the rug is the right thing to do. If you know something like that and you do not share it with your fellow Christian than you are just as bad as the false teacher for aiding him in my honest opinion.

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 02:12 PM
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but everyone I know whom I have talked to about this feels the same that I do. I am not saying it is right, but I do not come here to argue with people and I do not appreciate that you have hijacked the thread to prove you are "right."

We are not talking about hundreds of ministries, we are talking about one specific one. Please stay on target.

I am not the one who is taking the word of the Lord, slapping a price tag on it and peddling it ONLY to people who can afford to pay a large fee. If you think about it, the average cost of cable is $45. If you pay that a month to watch his ministry and then another $50 to own the tape then you just spent $100 to get a message that is free if you just pick up your Bible. Now I realize that he doesn't have any control over the cable bill, but he does have control over the cost of his tapes. If you think he isn't making a killing off of those alone then you are sadly mistaken, HOWEVER I am not as concerned about the money as I am that a lot of people do not hear the message because it has a hefty price tag. I can buy an entire series of Smallville episodes for the cost of ONE of his shows, half of which is made up of commercials and pleas to buy his stuff.

If your argument is that we all are given specific gifts and skills by God to reach certain people, that is cool, but Hagee has chosen to be a large voice in the Christian movement and as such will be held to a higher standard. He cannot simply chose to only preach to those who can afford it. Well he can, but that makes him questionable in my book.

Who has the technology to take advantage of these things? Not poor people!

He may have converted a lot of people, I do not know. That is great, but if he is teaching false doctrine should those people be grateful for his influence if he is leading them down the wrong path?

I disagree.

This is true and we do not know what is in Hagee's heart nor should we speculate, BUT why does he not share his message with people of all financial backgrounds? Why doesn't he share his message at cost? Surely the 18,000 people in his congregation can sustain the operating costs of the ministry. It isn't like they take additional time and man power to make these videos, they are made during his regular church services. If every single member only placed one dollar in the collection plate and there was 100% attendance that would be $18,000 for operating expenses.



If you are a plain old Christian that has not chosen to be a major voice in Christianity, sure. Also if you are using the money for good.



Again this is sort of tangential and has nothing to do with the tide of the thread which is that Hagee preaches duality and does so ONLY to those who can afford to buy what he's preaching.

When you type this over and over again I instantly think of the crazed Britney fan. I understand your point, but until you entered the thread it was a pretty level headed conversation about the man's duality with a little discussion of his monetary gain.

Everything I've said had been on target, kindly don't accuse me of something that we both know isn't true.

I've been civil AND level headed throughout my posts; although it is at times difficult when I feel that the person I'm talking to is coming off as being self righteous.

The entire reason I posted here was because I felt like it was turning into people talking about why they don't like TV preachers and why they're all wrong. I was bringing my own perspective on things because I started out where you are, then God opened my ears and let me actually HEAR what Pastor Hagee was talking about, and I am eternally grateful for that. I was so blinded my contempt of what he had been blessed with that I was growing further and further away from God. Then God, in His own way, hit me with a sledge hammer and opened my eyes.

I want to know how ou define "poor" because there are poor people all over the world to who TBN has donated televisions and personal satelite dishes. They've done this for the express purpose of getting the Gospel to ALL the world as we have been commanded to do.

You also seem to forget that Jesus and the disciples DID have income you know. Judas, prior to his betrayal of Christ, handled their money.

Perhaps, rather than attack Pastor Hagee and his ministry, YOU should go to the poor if you feel so convicted about it. If the matter is as important as you believe, why leave it to someone you obviously feel doesn't care?

I type what I do over and over again because it is my hope that what I am saying will reach someone the way I was reached. I take great umbrage with being referred to as "the crazed Britny fan". I'm just as much a man of God as anyone else here. I simply do not like to see us attack one another when there are groups and people who masquerade as Christians and use it to sully the name of us all while we remain fixated on other matters.

Whether or not a preacher or minister has nice things and makes money by selling books and cds is an issue for each of those people. Like I said, I started out where you are now. I felt the same as you, and then I started listening to God speaking to my heart and actually opened my ears to hear and realized that I had been wrong.

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 02:34 PM
I've been civil AND level headed throughout my posts; although it is at times difficult when I feel that the person I'm talking to is coming off as being self righteous.

Who is judging whom now? You have made snide remarks in every one of your posts. This is the last time I will address you, so kindly move on. You have told me that my opinion does not hold water, I am self righteous (which is ridiculous), you made the comment "YOU should go to the poor if you feel so convicted about it" when ALL of us should be concerned about the message being spread to EVERYONE including the poor and you insinuate that I am "masquerading as a Christian." How is any of that Christ-like? I am not here to argue with you or anyone and I would kindly appreciate it if you stopped "typing at me." I come here to learn, not to be abused. Thank you.

Jeanne D
Nov 5th 2007, 04:09 PM
I find it interesting that folks are speculating about John Hagee's finances. I don't know what he does with his money, does anyone here? Has anyone been able to view his financial records?

I know of one TV preacher who actually sells tickets to hear him preach. I'm sorry but I just can't get around that one at all. To pass an offering plate is one thing, but to have to buy a ticket.. that just amazes me, and people love this guy. He smiles and isn't life grand.. he really irritates me, so I don't listen to him.

Anyway we're all entitled to our opinions, but the problem arises when people disagree with one another and give the impression that they are trying to force others to change their views. At least sometimes it is perceived that way. I am not addressing any one person specifically, btw.

I happen to like John Hagee, he's one of my favorite preachers.
I like the fact that he tells it like it is, and doesn't say things that "tickle itching ears".

Jeanne

Kingsdaughter
Nov 5th 2007, 04:10 PM
So many people come down on t.v. evangelist because what they see in the media, whether that is on the t.v., internet etc. But they do not look for themselves. Just because some guy put together a t.v. program, or made a website that says this "evangelist" is a false minister because of... It is automatically correct in both the secular and christian worlds. People do not do research for themselves. The people that have done the research, you do not know what they are like, or even if they are christian or not. Even if they use scripture in their info, doesn't mean anything, they themselves could be the ones that are false ministers trying to destroy God's ministry. So unless I see first hand, meaning not from someone else's veiw point, or if I have an uneasy spirit about the minister, I am not going to count him out.

Here's another thing, if there you feel that a t.v. evangelist is corrupt, instead of bashing him and saying he is a false minister, how about praying for them, I'm sure they could use the extra prayer, that seems like the christian thing to do.

I agree, I enjoy Hagee Ministries and In Touch Ministries with Pastor Charles Stanley, if it wasn't for the Lord speaking through Pastor Charles that night as I turned on the t.v. I probably would have killed myself. God bless you all.

amazzin
Nov 5th 2007, 04:13 PM
....I happen to like John Hagee, he's one of my favorite preachers.
I like the fact that he tells it like it is, and doesn't say things that "tickle itching ears".

Jeanne

I agree with everything you are saying. Except for the above. I have always liked Hagee and would make sure I got a dose of his preaching every week until 2005 when he started on this "Isreal" owns it all theme and how he views all "Palestinians and Arabs" as the enemy. That's when I think he started to "tickle" the Christian Jewish alliances ears to raise both awareness and funds to kick out all non-jews from their so called rightful land.

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 04:24 PM
I wasn't trying to change anyone's opinions. I was just stating mine. I like to think I am open minded enough to see others half way even if I do not agree with them.

I do not know what he does with his money, but I question anyone who puts such a high price tag on a borrowed message. I just think that when you chose to be at the forefront of any movement, you should not limit your message only to those who can afford to pay you for it.

Even more disturbing is the fact that he is asking Christians to purchase a book in which he repeats over and over again that Christ is not the Messiah. That in itself was enough to make me call my Mom and make her aware. I sent her the links and she can chose for herself, but she is not happy with what has been brought to light. My mom is one of those people who buys his tapes and sponsors Russian Jews.

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 05:00 PM
I'm not not going to say that I'm not trying to change people's opinions or change their mind; because, in point of fact, I do want to change hearts and minds.

I used to not like Pastor Hagee, then I opened my ears to hear and found that I had been blind about many things. I actually don't have a problem with someone charging for cds, dvds and books. That's the free market at work and I am a capalist as well as a Christian.

I do have to say though that Pastor Hagee does not say that Christ wasn't the Messiah. What he said in In Defense of Israel, was that He would not be the Messiah that the Jewish people wanted at that time. Meaning He was not there as Messiah the Conqueror at that time. During His time on earth two thousand years ago He had come as Christ the Redeemer. That He would not be the Conquering Messiah the Jewish people wanted is why they disavowed Him at the crucifixion.

I can understand the selling of tickets thing, unless his appearance was part of an overall conferance and the tickets in question were part of that conferance.

However I maintain that just because a someone is a pastor, in no way means that they should live in abject poverty themselves. God blesses us all in different ways and it is wrong for any of us to sit in judgement over how someone else is blessed just because we think they should be doing something different. Unless, and only unless the person is using that blessing to live like the devil.

Many of the TBM pastors and preachers get involved in multiple ministries to the poor, to other nations and to the world at large.

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 07:12 PM
A Lively Day at the "Gates of Hell"
Charles E. Carlson Nov 01, 2007

A Lively Day at the "Gates of Hell"
Vigil at John Hagee’s Cornerstone Church, October 28, 2007
By Charles E. Carlson

The Project Strait Gate early team of six men and women lined up on an elevated boulevard dividing traffic on Stone Oak Parkway San Antonio, TX, in front of Cornerstone Church at 8:00 AM Sunday, thirty minutes before the start of services. The parking lot was already filling with the thousands that would come. In 15 minutes the street was busy both ways and a uniformed off-duty policeman was directing traffic past us into the church.

Four hours later nine of us departed for our own lunch and devotional. We left with the inescapable feeling that those who own this giant propaganda and entertainment business called Cornerstone Church, with its huge broadcasting network, would stop at very little to prevent the slightest glimmer of what we had to say from filtering through to its patrons. And we all felt that many inside would indelibly remember our message.

We experienced this Hagee attitude of turf protection at Night To Honor Israel in Washington DC in July. One paid attendee contacted me after the event to tell of a Hagee official who tried persistently, but unsuccessfully, to extract a certain Pharisee Watch bulletin she received from one of our volunteers outside the hotel. She was amazed to witness others being pressured to surrender our literature to agents, presumably to be destroyed. The lady did not give in, correctly wondering what this professing Christian organization had to hide?

The Strait Gate team erected 16 square-foot, professionally made signs on the median. A 32 square-foot sign was erected next to the sidewalk closest to the church entrance reading APOSTATE CHURCH, Christ Followers Must Not Kill.

At Cornerstone almost no one walks in, rendering it difficult to leaflet the audience. The content and design of display signs is critical because they must be read with ease from 50-100 yards or more, even from a moving car. Enormous parking lots are common at mega-churches, which have seemingly unlimited money to accumulate land with tax free dollars, on which they pay no local taxes to support the police and other services they require. This was especially true Sunday at The Cornerstone Church "Gates of Hell," where at one time 5 squad cars were lined up between the church and our vigil.

How many of those thousands inside came to hear John Hagee’s message pronouncing prophesy about the “end times,” and how many are there for the plentiful entertainment is hard to guess. Among our own group about half had attended Cornerstone and two had been regular attendees, who told us the entertainment value is a powerful draw.

Robbi was inside, and reported after attending the 8:00 AM service that Pastor Hagee preached a sermon of prophesy, hellfire, and damnation, about the “end times,” with emphasis on the “rapture” coming first, followed by a great war, claiming it is all prophesy in his bible. Hagee justifies his pro-war stand on belief in a prophetic world war to come, a war led by none other than Jesus Christ…Hagee would have one believe he is just co-operating with God’s eternal plan, which plan he clearly understands by virtue of his scholarship.

Robbi said Hagee went further with his audience, explaining to them that the major natural disasters and political events America is suffering today are all prophesied in his bible and are God's judgment on the wicked in America. He specifically mentioned flood, fires, and other natural disasters, as well as the rise of the Hitler-like figure of Iran’s President Ahmadinejad, as being among these God sent plagues. Hagee did not name Project Strait Gate, we were sorry to hear, but he alluded to us indirectly as the persecutors of “Christianity,” hell bound, no doubt a subtitle reference to the eight of us delivering our message outside his doors. According to Hagee, America’s evils hasten this divine judgment, which evils specifically include the neglecting the State of Israel, along with lesser evils, abortionists and homosexuality. Hagee always omits any mention of the slaughter by war as evil or sinful. He never approaches our question “Who Would Jesus Bomb”.

Hagee’s charisma comes from a combination of absolute confidence that his every bombastic word is true, combined with a practiced ability to mix in humor and wit. Robbi reported Hagee mentioned Jesus' name about five times in this sermon. Perhaps he heard our criticism that he omitted Jesus entirely in his "Night To Honor Israel" speeches. “Hagee is good, very good,” Robbi said. Anyone who thinks Hagee is a fool is at least 50% dead wrong. Half right, however, because he is a fool to take God's name in vain, as he does. Hagee is schooled in his ability to handle crowds. His organization outside Cornerstone Church revealed his attitude about squashing anyone who comes against him. Mr. Hagee is not waiting for God’s deliverance from his enemies, he hires bodyguards.

Many of the thousands walking into the main south entrance of Cornerstone could read our signs easily, as could many in arriving autos. But most demonstrated an amazing ability to focus their eyes straight ahead and rarely to turn their head toward us. A few departing in autos rolled down windows to tell us what they thought. I heard one that leveled a curse “you will all burn in hell,” but most stared straight ahead with the single mindedness of a West Point cadet at Parade Rest. It was a peer pressure demonstration... peek, but do not look.

Cornerstone’s first line of defense is peer pressure. Only one member walked the 100 plus feet from the church entrances to our manned picket line to get information about why Project Strait Gate was there. From past experience, I attribute this apparent lack of curiosity to peer pressure; to approach us would be a mark of disloyalty, and it might be noted by the ever present big “Men in Black."

Cornerstone's team of at least three Men in Black watched over our vigil from a distance. Each one was portly, more or less in Hagee’s image, and each wore an identical uniform, a black collarless shirt under a black two-piece suit. They watched us, talked to police and to each other, but not one of them said a word to any of us. They could have been the CIA or the Mossad bodyguards speaking another language for all we know.

An off-duty policeman, in his home uniform, was the first to attempt to move our outpost of volunteers off the public sidewalks in front of the church. We know why Hagee wanted them to move this post; it is a thirty-six square foot yellow and black poster that reads:
APOSTATE CHURCH
Christ Followers Must Not Kill*(Apostate Church)

This sign was solidly implanted and attended within clear reading distance of the main entrance door. Cornerstone wanted us all back on the median of the boulevard where people had to deliberately look for us to see our message, the sign on the sidewalk could not be missed. Our team leader, Dave, politely declined the command to move, stating we were on public ground. This brought more discussion between off duty policeman and the Men in Black. Back came the off duty cop to tell us our sign may be a safety hazard, a distraction to passing traffic. Not so we said, we have our backs to the traffic by facing your church the traffic can’t see our sign, only those walking into your church, and we are staying here on public ground.

The off duty policeman then went back to the Men in Black who pay him, and we had a few minutes of peace before the next Hagee attack on our freedom. Next out came the muscle, a burly 40 year old in black suit trousers, white shirt, and tie. He looked like a very healthy Baptist deacon, and he told Dave and I he was “from the church.” But he declined to give a name saying it did not matter he had authority. The “enforcer” issued an ultimatum that we take down the offensive sign, or, he said he would remove it himself. We said “no,” and he made a move for our sign. At this Dave, a decisive past navy pilot, went for his cell phone, hit the 911 buttons, and began to loudly report a threat of assault on our personal property and rights, while an alert Collette, our volunteer photographer, snapped the enforcer. He turned tail and retreated to a nearby auto parked on Hagee’s lot, got in the car, and drove off around the West side of the church, not to be seen again.

In short order five San Antonio squad cars were there, each with red lights flashing further calling attention to our little group. We could not have ordered a better attention-getter for our message. Still the congregation stayed away. In spite of all this action only one man from inside the church braved peer pressure to come out, talk, and take back our literature!

Our team went on with business of holding up signs for them, including:
NO MORE WARS FOR ISRAEL
CHOOSE LIFE, NOT WAR
WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?


The Men in Black next tried telling the San Antonio police (untruthfully) we had been there before and had caused a disturbance, and that the church's attendees might get violent with us, therefore, we should be removed to protect us from the congregation. Dave and I both told the police no thanks; we would trust them to protect us.

San Antonio officers were polite, but firm. We presented them with Dave’s city plat map of the Hagee property, showing every detail including the public property all around it, just enough to show them we knew our rights. The officers talked more with the Men in Black. They also conversed with the Sergeant-in-charge via cell phone, as the red lights continued to flash in front of Cornerstone Church.

Finally a decision came from the San Antonio Police Sergeant; we had every right to be there, we could stay, but must stay on the sidewalks, and no one could bother us. The police would keep an eye on the situation; however, we could not plant signs in the ground on the grass, no matter who owns it because of a fixed sign ordinance someone remembered. Our eight-foot long “APOSTATE CHURCH” billboard remained, manned by Dave.

At 11:30 AM our tired crew retired for our own much deserved rest and lunch in a restaurant fronting on Hagee’s property. We hope he does not own it. Everyone said they were rewarded by their experience and were glad they came, even the four who came from distant Austin, Texas. Absent were the usual accounts of interactions with members of the congregation.
There is a tenancy is to feel discouraged when members do not come out and at least argue, but this is in no way unusual, it shows the power of peer pressure over a congregation of Judeo-Christians. And we know from experience they do not have answers to our simple written messages, except to proclaim, as Hagee tells them, that God will punish us for what we say.

Our Vigil further confirms what we already know, that nine determined men and women is more than enough for any Vigil.

We also confirmed that John Hagee is one of the most dangerous men in America, dangerous because he is currently the acknowledged leader of the radical Christian Zionist political movement, having replaced now dead Jerry Falwell for the honor of being the leader of the more-war-for-Israel-at-any-cost movement.

We again learned that professionally made visual messages, Christ-like acting people (which we can only attempt), and advance preparation, are all indispensable. We must be respectful of authority, but very firm of your rights, as the Apostle Paul was.

We reaffirmed what 60 vigils have taught us, that we must chip away at the falsehood preached in the Judeo-Christian Churches like this one, not through its leaders, who are a lost cause, but through its members.

We must find help, and this means we need to gently help awaken the slumbering mainline churches to pronounce what they already know is true, that political Israel is not the fulfillment of Biblical Prophesy. Mainline churches must regain their courage and compete with Judeo-Christianity.

We learned that the stated Mission Goal of We Hold These Truths, as found on whtt.org is correct:
“Our mission is to rescue followers of Christ from the apostasy called Christian-Zionism. We reach out to the "lost sheep" inside our churches who do not know they are lost.”

I doubt if Jesus was thinking about John Hagee or Jerry Falwell two thousand years ago when, speaking to the 12 who followed him about the false prophets in their lifetime, He said:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Hagee fits the pattern of Apostasy.
Matthew 7: 21-23 American Standard Version

Link to Projct Strait Gate (http:////cp.whtt.org/straitgate/index.php?id=14&news=1): http://cp.whtt.org/straitgate/index.php?id=14&news=1 (http://cp.whtt.org/straitgate/index.php?id=14&news=1)


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bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 07:28 PM
The problem I have with the above post is its utter lack of understanding of Biblical Prophecy of the End Times, and God's Covenant with the Jewish people.

The simple fact of the matter is that, according to Daniel, the Book of Revelations, and several other prophetic messages there WILL be a rapture of the saints, followed by the great tribulation, the anti-Christ, and a war the likes of which man has not seen nor will ever see again. A preacher who teaches this is not pro-war, they're preaching a message people need to hear. We are called upon to look up and watch for the second coming of Messiah.

To claim that the Jewish people hold no special place in God's heart is to preach a rather egregios heresy that can be disproven by anyone who owns a Bible. Its that kind of softening of Christ's message that sends people away from Christianity. The accusations of "entertainment value" are rather suspect in my opinion as well.

I<3Jesus
Nov 5th 2007, 07:42 PM
No offense to you Pinky, but what makes your group any better than his? I do not think any of these extremists are right. I am going to take the advice given to me on page one and hug my Bible. I do not want to follow ANY man down the wrong path.

skc53
Nov 5th 2007, 08:33 PM
I find it interesting that folks are speculating about John Hagee's finances. I don't know what he does with his money, does anyone here? Has anyone been able to view his financial records?

I know of one TV preacher who actually sells tickets to hear him preach. I'm sorry but I just can't get around that one at all. To pass an offering plate is one thing, but to have to buy a ticket.. that just amazes me, and people love this guy. He smiles and isn't life grand.. he really irritates me, so I don't listen to him.

Anyway we're all entitled to our opinions, but the problem arises when people disagree with one another and give the impression that they are trying to force others to change their views. At least sometimes it is perceived that way. I am not addressing any one person specifically, btw.

I happen to like John Hagee, he's one of my favorite preachers.
I like the fact that he tells it like it is, and doesn't say things that "tickle itching ears".

Jeanne

AMEN Jeanne D. You are right about John Hagee. I guess some people don't want to hear preachers tell it like it is. I do.

skc53
Nov 5th 2007, 08:47 PM
I agree with everything you are saying. Except for the above. I have always liked Hagee and would make sure I got a dose of his preaching every week until 2005 when he started on this "Isreal" owns it all theme and how he views all "Palestinians and Arabs" as the enemy. That's when I think he started to "tickle" the Christian Jewish alliances ears to raise both awareness and funds to kick out all non-jews from their so called rightful land.


Do you know or realize that God gave Israel that land? Israel doesn't need to give another inch of their land that God gave them, to anyone. In fact, they need to take back what land they have already given away. It also says in the Bible that, talking about Israel, those who curse Israel will be cursed, and those who bless Israel will be blessed. I would rather take sides with Israel and be blessed, than to go against them and be cursed, wouldn't you? Somebody has to tell the people about this, so why not John Hagee.

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 09:07 PM
OK.

What does CHRIST and the New Testament say about war and the Christian obligation to engage in war.......as Hagee suggests?

In all sincerity and the Truth of Jesus Christ, can you please point to New Testament verses to support your view on this subject. ;)


The problem I have with the above post is its utter lack of understanding of Biblical Prophecy of the End Times, and God's Covenant with the Jewish people.


What do you understand of the New Testament interpretation of Biblical Prophecy and God's fulfillment of His Covenant promises to the Jewish people through the New Covenant?

When it comes to understanding Biblical prophecy in light of the New Covenant, are we being taught by Jesus and His divinely appointed ministers........or men who have been exhalted in an endtime apostate church?

I say this not to condemn or judge anyone, but to inspire reflection on the teachings of Christ Himself. As HE and ONLY HE is our light in this world of darkness and continual deception.

Who do we follow? Jesus or Hagee?

Do Hagee's teachings really line up with what Christ taught?

Does Christ want His followers to attack Iran as Hagee does?

Hagee calls for war against Iran. Does Jesus?

There are over a million Christians in Iran and the church there has seen unprecedented growth over the last few decades. Is this not the power of the Holy Spirit moving there?

Does military aggression against this nation, as Hagee proposes, reflect the desire of CHRIST?

If you feel that it does, then please provide New Testament verse to support your position.

Looking forward to hearing your reply.

Peace and Love in Christ,
pinky

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 09:29 PM
Alright pinky. Let me ask you this.

If God breaks His Covenant with the Jewish people how can any of us have any kind of assurance. Because what you're saying is that we don't. Chrsit came to fulfill the LAW, by His own words. He never said one word about God's EVERLASTING Covenent being fulfilled. The point of everlasting is that it goes on forever and into eternity. If we cannot trust the Word of God on His Covenants with His people, how do we trust His Covenant with us?

Secondly, I'd rather not get into a Bible quoting war with you. I'll simply say that, as Christians, we have a certain obligation to support the children of Israel; ie the Jewish people. Those who bless Israel are blessed and those who curse it are cursed.

War with Iran is inevitable, barring a miracle from Almighty God. While the people may be coming to Christ it is, and I'll trust that you are right about that for now, the government is entirely based on sharia law and is openly dedicated to the utter anihilation of Christians and Jews. As individuals we are to pray for them and for God to open their eyes. However it is also important to note that while God gave us laws for the individual, namely the Ten Commandments, He also gave laws for a nation to govern itself by. As we can clearly see, it is alright for a nation to have a military to defend itself from its enemies.

It is not warmongering to state the obvious. The End Times are upon us and the final war will come during the Great Tribulation where only 1/6th of the armies rallying against Israel will remain.

This subject, which comes from the Book of Revelations, has been taught upon many times by Pastor Hagee and others. I implore you, as a fellow Christian, to open your eyes and see the Truth that God wants you to know. Pastor Hagee is not the enemy.

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 09:46 PM
Do you know or realize that God gave Israel that land? Israel doesn't need to give another inch of their land that God gave them, to anyone. In fact, they need to take back what land they have already given away. It also says in the Bible that, talking about Israel, those who curse Israel will be cursed, and those who bless Israel will be blessed. I would rather take sides with Israel and be blessed, than to go against them and be cursed, wouldn't you? Somebody has to tell the people about this, so why not John Hagee.



For the record, God did NOT say that those who bless 'Israel' will be blessed and those who curse 'Israel' will be cursed (this is a Talmudic interpretation).

He said these things to to "ABRAHAM".

Let us look at the New Testament to see who it is who is blessed with Abraham....

Gal 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham.

Gal 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How are all the nations, which be of faith, are blessed with FAITHFUL
Abraham?

Let us look to the New Testament for clarification on these matters.

Rom 4:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom004.html#13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/clearpixel.gif
If in fact, as your interpretation suggests, that those who 'bless the state of Israel' will be blessed.....please reflect on the following.....

No other country has 'blessed' the state of Israel more than the United States. Since her birth in 1948, the US has surpassed all other nations in support of the antichrist Jewish state, financially, politically and religiously.

Can you show clearly the fruit of this blessing as the US has been on a moral cultural decline ever since?

Peace and Love in Christ,
pinky

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 09:59 PM
For the record, God did NOT say that those who bless 'Israel' will be blessed and those who curse 'Israel' will be cursed (this is a Talmudic interpretation).

He said these things to to "ABRAHAM".

Let us look at the New Testament to see who it is who is blessed with Abraham....

Gal 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with FAITHFUL Abraham.

Gal 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How are all the nations, which be of faith, are blessed with FAITHFUL
Abraham?

Let us look to the New Testament for clarification on these matters.

Rom 4:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom004.html#13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Gal 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/clearpixel.gif
If in fact, as your interpretation suggests, that those who 'bless the state of Israel' will be blessed.....please reflect on the following.....

No other country has 'blessed' the state of Israel more than the United States. Since her birth in 1948, the US has surpassed all other nations in support of the antichrist Jewish state, financially, politically and religiously.

Can you show clearly the fruit of this blessing as the US has been on a moral cultural decline ever since?

Peace and Love in Christ,
pinky

Part of the reason God has allowed these things to happen is our free will. Another reason comes from our continual demand that Israel give up more and more of the land that God gave to them. God's views on this are crystal clear, and it is something that Pastor Hagee has preached on multiple times. You must also remember that we are to keep the Old Testament as well as the New. Both are essential for us to study as both are relevant in the eyes of God. (This being another thing Pastor Hagee has taught on)

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 10:20 PM
If God breaks His Covenant with the Jewish people how can any of us have any kind of assurance. Because what you're saying is that we don't.

God fulfilled His Covenant through the sacrifice of His Son, the Messiah that was promised unto them, and all mankind.

Mar 1:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar001.html#15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 24:44 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning ME.

Rom 8:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom008.html#4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal005.html#14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hbr 8:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr008.html#13) In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



Chrsit came to fulfill the LAW, by His own words. He never said one word about God's EVERLASTING Covenent being fulfilled.


The EVERLASTING Covenant is EVERLASTING LIFE....

Jhn 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn003.html#16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn003.html#36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jhn 4:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn004.html#14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jhn 5:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn005.html#24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jhn 6:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn006.html#27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Jhn 6:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn006.html#40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:47 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn006.html#47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jhn 12:50 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn012.html#50) And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Act 13:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/Act013.html#46) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Rom 6:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom006.html#22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Gal 6:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal006.html#8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Hbr 13:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr013.html#20) Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

2Pe 1:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Pe/2Pe001.html#11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


The point of everlasting is that it goes on forever and into eternity. If we cannot trust the Word of God on His Covenants with His people, how do we trust His Covenant with us?


How can a temproal, worldy, land convenant go on forever into eternity?


Secondly, I'd rather not get into a Bible quoting war with you.

Is that because you know that you cannot provide ONE single New Testament verse to support your 'land covenant theology'??

It is not a Bible quoting 'war', it is a matter of searching His Word to see if these things be so. Iron sharpening iron.


I'll simply say that, as Christians, we have a certain obligation to support the children of Israel; ie the Jewish people.

If we as Christians are obligated to support an antichrist Jewish state, as you suggest, then can you please show where we are instructed in this doctrine in the New Testament? As the NT is our instruction manual as Christians in this fallen world.

If this teaching is not in our Gospel.....then wouldn't reason suggest that it is 'another Gospel'?

2Cr 11:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr011.html#4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


Gal 1:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal001.html#6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Those who bless Israel are blessed and those who curse it are cursed.


Can you please quote your verses that you base this on?

Peace and Love in the Gospel Truth of Jesus Christ,
pinky

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 10:31 PM
Part of the reason God has allowed these things to happen is our free will. Another reason comes from our continual demand that Israel give up more and more of the land that God gave to them. God's views on this are crystal clear, and it is something that Pastor Hagee has preached on multiple times. You must also remember that we are to keep the Old Testament as well as the New. Both are essential for us to study as both are relevant in the eyes of God. (This being another thing Pastor Hagee has taught on)

What does the NT say about the Old Covenant??

The Old Covenant gendereth us into bondage....

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Peace and Love in Christ,
pinky

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 10:42 PM
What does the NT say about the Old Covenant??

The Old Covenant gendereth us into bondage....

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Peace and Love in Christ,
pinky

I base my beliefs on the inerrant, infallible Word of the Living God. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Lord Jehovah and none other. I base it on the ENTIRTY of His Word, Old Testament and New. As does Pastor Hagee, Pastor Parsley, Perry Stone, the Rev. Billy Grahm, and many many others.

Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic.

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 10:47 PM
I should also add that I do agree with you that war is inevitable, as Christ said there would be wars and rumours of wars.........but.......is it our Christian mandate to throw our support behind war?

Can we reconcile this with what Christ taught us?

No personal offence to you in any way. It is simply a matter of sound Christian doctrine so that we may not be decieved by the ways of the world and false teachers.

In the Blessed Name of Christ,
pinky

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 10:49 PM
Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic


Can you show how Hagee's warmongering lines up with the Gospel?

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 10:55 PM
Now, can we PLEASE get back on topic

BTW, you are the one who asked me about God's covenant with the Jewish people. I simply tried to sincerely answer your question in light of the Gospel.

Can you anwer my question as to wether Hagee's doctrine lines up with Christ's doctrine?


Does Jesus want us to attack Iran as Hagee does?

bayushisan
Nov 5th 2007, 11:15 PM
Can you show how Hagee's warmongering lines up with the Gospel?

Ecclesiates 3:8 A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

We, as individuals are admonished to not murder in cold blood; NATIONS are never forbidden from going to war. In point of fact God has directed nations to do so on any number of occasions.

Pastor Hagee has been consistent in this teaching as long as I've been watching him.

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 11:38 PM
How does Hagee's call for war line up with the GOSPEL??

The OT also says an eye for an eye.....but what saith Christ?


Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

If we are Christians following the New Covenant teachings, then it should be no problem finding NT teachings to support our belief.

It would be helpful if you could provide Gospel teachings in this matter.

God bless in Christ,
pinky

pinky
Nov 5th 2007, 11:59 PM
2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

pinky
Nov 6th 2007, 12:14 AM
Pastor Hagee has been consistent in this teaching as long as I've been watching him.


Please, for the love of Christ, consider the following.....

http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp

In his book In Defense of Israel http://www.biblewheel.com/images/globe_tiny.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599792109/ref=s9_asin_image_1/103-0757130-7718202?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0GPSKA7C2BWCDEYSVS6Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846) (2007), beginning in the section called "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee relentlessly twisted Scripture in his attempt to prove that Jesus Christ did not come "to be Messiah to the Jews." His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked as a mere "slip of his pen" because he repeated his assertion "seven ways from Sunday" as seen in this sample of seven quotes from his book:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

bayushisan
Nov 6th 2007, 12:46 AM
Please, for the love of Christ, consider the following.....

http://www.biblewheel.com/RR/Hagee_Defense_of_Israel.asp

In his book In Defense of Israel http://www.biblewheel.com/images/globe_tiny.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599792109/ref=s9_asin_image_1/103-0757130-7718202?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0GPSKA7C2BWCDEYSVS6Z&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=278240301&pf_rd_i=507846) (2007), beginning in the section called "The Jews did not Reject Jesus as Messiah" (p. 132) John Hagee relentlessly twisted Scripture in his attempt to prove that Jesus Christ did not come "to be Messiah to the Jews." His denial of Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) cannot be overlooked as a mere "slip of his pen" because he repeated his assertion "seven ways from Sunday" as seen in this sample of seven quotes from his book:

If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

The intent of what Pastor Hagee wrote, as I have actually READ the book, is that Jesus would not be the Messiah that the Jewish people wanted AT THAT TIME! He first came as the fulfillment of the Law, which was the blood sacrifice as the perfect Lamb of God. The Jewish people only rejected Him at the crucifixion. It was at that rejection that the wheels of prophecy were set into motion again and made the redemption of the nations possible. Pastor Hagee may not have worded what he said in the best way but I feel like I've interpreted his meaning. Messiah WILL come again as the mighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Christ the Conqueror who will lay the nations low and rule for the millenial reign.

This prophecy is through out the entirety of the Bible.

BTW as for Christ talking about war and not saying that it was wrong for NATIONS to do so.
Luke 14:31-32

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 01:12 AM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were several times in the Gospels that the Jews denied Christ. Can someone tell me if this is true or false. If it is true can you point me in the direction of where it is? Thanks.

RoadWarrior
Nov 6th 2007, 01:41 AM
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were several times in the Gospels that the Jews denied Christ. Can someone tell me if this is true or false. If it is true can you point me in the direction of where it is? Thanks.

Hi Supah Christian!

May I step in to this discussion?

In another thread, we are doing a study of Mark, and one thing that's coming out clearly is how the Pharisees rejected Jesus, and plotted with the Herodians and the Saduccees to have him killed. (Also see John 18:3)

Sometimes we need to make a difference between words. All of the people at that time were called Jews and were the descendants of the tribe of Judah and of Benjamin, along with the Levis. The 10 tribes from the north had been carried away by the Assyrians and dispersed. None of those 10 tribes exist as a people-group today. The Judahites, Benjaminites and Levites were carried to Babylon, (see Daniel) and returned to Jerusalem. (See Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai.)

So, the people of Jesus' day were all called Jews. The ones who specifically rejected Jesus as Messiah were the religious and political leaders of the day. Many of the ordinary people accepted Him as their Savior and Messiah. (See John 1:41) In fact, all 12 disciples were Jews. Futher, the entire first church consisted of Jews, until Peter and Paul began to take the gospel to the Gentiles. Gentiles are understood to be anyone who was not a Jew.

Many Jews today are Christians, they go by names like messianic Jews, completed Jews, etc. So the Church, the Body of Christ, is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. We are both One in Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor Greek, etc.

The people who live in Israel today call themselves Israelis. Some Israelis are deeply religious Jews, most are secular people with worldly ways of life. Most want nothing to do with Christianity, but a few are deeply and passionately Christian.

In the surrounding countries, most people are Muslim, but a few are deeply and passionately Christian. These Christians are persecuted in ways we Americans cannot imagine.

So this is a long answer to your question, but yes, the religious and political leaders of Jerusalem in those days denied Jesus as the Christ.

Also today, the religious and political leaders in Jerusalem are rejecting Christ.

Blessings,
Road Warrior

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 01:49 AM
Thanks! Oh and there is a reason why "Supah Christian" is followed by LOL. ;)It has been only recently that I have started really studying the Bible, so I do not know a whole lot, yet. I have been in church most of my life, but I am a stranger to the Bible. Sad eh?

RoadWarrior
Nov 6th 2007, 02:37 AM
Thanks! Oh and there is a reason why "Supah Christian" is followed by LOL. ;)It has been only recently that I have started really studying the Bible, so I do not know a whole lot, yet. I have been in church most of my life, but I am a stranger to the Bible. Sad eh?

LOL for me too, because it makes me happy to see that as a name. I want to be a s "supah Christian" too!

The Bible, I have heard, is safe enough for a child to wade in, and deep enough for an elephant to swim in. So be happy to be a little child, and wade to your heart's content. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Learn how to search your concordance and find your own answers, as well. Join good Bible studies and watch for more mature Christians that show good fruit in their lives, then listen carefully to those. If you don't see good fruit, remain skeptical. Soon enough you will begin to feel like an elephant.

Yes, sad to be a stranger to the Bible. I was also in church most of my life and learned nothing! I was a grandmother before I learned how to study the Bible for myself. I remember my first Bible at that time, I couldn't wait until I had every page in it marked up with the jewels the Lord was teaching me!

Feel free to come join us in the Mark study, led by TanyaP!

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 03:10 AM
Thanks, I will try to check those out. I will tell you though that I have a hard time reading the long posts. I know it is going to sound weird, but I glaze over after a bit. I am an auditory learner and I do better with other mediums. That is why I was trying to find someone on TV or DVD that was good to listen to in addition to my Bible CDs and other things.

RoadWarrior
Nov 6th 2007, 05:30 AM
Thanks, I will try to check those out. I will tell you though that I have a hard time reading the long posts. I know it is going to sound weird, but I glaze over after a bit. I am an auditory learner and I do better with other mediums. That is why I was trying to find someone on TV or DVD that was good to listen to in addition to my Bible CDs and other things.

Hey, I understand that! Someone referred to the long posts as a "wall of text" which I thought was quite descriptive.

Check out the Mark one, you might find it to be different. The lessons that are posted each day are pretty short bits of scripture and you get to just observe and answer some simple questions. Then if you feel like reading what others wrote fine, if you don't, it isn't necessary to read them.

In any case, my prayers are with you that you will find a way to deepen your knowledge of the Lord and of His word.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 01:15 PM
Hey, I understand that! Someone referred to the long posts as a "wall of text" which I thought was quite descriptive.

Check out the Mark one, you might find it to be different. The lessons that are posted each day are pretty short bits of scripture and you get to just observe and answer some simple questions. Then if you feel like reading what others wrote fine, if you don't, it isn't necessary to read them.

In any case, my prayers are with you that you will find a way to deepen your knowledge of the Lord and of His word.

I will check that out today! I am looking for an additional Bible study. I definitely need the prayers - LOL.

pinky
Nov 6th 2007, 04:44 PM
Hello I<3Jesus


Forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought that there were several times in the Gospels that the Jews denied Christ. Can someone tell me if this is true or false. If it is true can you point me in the direction of where it is? Thanks.

You are correct. There are many, many Gospel verses that show that the Jewish leaders denied Christ.....and conspired against Him. I hope to touch on just a few in my rebuttal of Hagee below.

It seems that RoadWarrior gave you very good advice. :)




Pastor Hagee may not have worded what he said in the best way but I feel like I've interpreted his meaning.

Hello bayushisan. I pray you are doing well today.

I understand that you feel you have properly interpreted Hagee's context, but do you see the potential for what he has said here to decieve many?


Let us look again at what Hagee said and compare it directly with what scripture says.

My apologies if this is a 'wall of text'.


-If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)


If raising the dead and His own resurrection is not a 'supernatural sign' that He is the Messiah......then I don't know what is.


Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.




-Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Jhn 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.




-If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)


When the diciples asked Christ to show His works to the world, Christ replied....

Jhn 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.




-The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)


Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


How is it possible that Christ 'refused to be the Messiah to the Jews' when He came to them FIRST?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!




-They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)


Jesus did NOT 'refuse to be their Messiah', He IS their Messiah that was promised unto them by the prophets.......

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Contrary to what Hagee says, the majority did not want Him to be their Messiah.......

Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

They hated Him, without a cause.....

Jhn 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.




-He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)


Again, He did not refuse to be their Messiah. Because the majority rejected Him, the Gospel was turned unto the gentiles....

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.




-Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)


What sheer and utter blasphemy to even say such a thing! This is the complete opposite of what our Gospel says........

Jhn 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.



Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.




There are so many more verses that can be added here to clearly demonstrate Hagee's lies. Never mind the fact that the very Name, CHRIST, means 'Messiah'.....


Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.


If a man like Hagee, who's ministry reaches millions of Christians, can say that 'Christ denied His role as Messiah in word and deed'..........and his flock does not rebuke this blatant lie, or flee from him, then this only serves to demonstrate the extent of apostacy in our churches today......imho.

It is a sad thing to see and grieves the very heart and soul.


We were warned of such men.....

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

It would seem that the fruit of Hagee's ministry is war.........as this is what he preaches from his pulpit.

I don't mean to bash or offend those who believe Hagee is a sound teacher. I only mean to encourage a closer examination of what he teaches.

I too have put my trust in men who have turned out to be liars.

I hate to be decieved and I hate to see other Christians decieved as well.



Lord have mercy.

Steve M
Nov 6th 2007, 04:47 PM
What's interesting to me is that Jesus' own disciples wanted him to be their Super-Messiah, leading a revolt against Rome, right up till the Ascension. "Lord, will you at this time restore the Kingdom?" I.e., will you drive out the Romans? They didn't get it. Right up to there. He had to show them literally where His kingdom was by ascending into heaven.

pinky
Nov 6th 2007, 06:15 PM
What's interesting to me is that Jesus' own disciples wanted him to be their Super-Messiah, leading a revolt against Rome, right up till the Ascension. "Lord, will you at this time restore the Kingdom?" I.e., will you drive out the Romans? They didn't get it. Right up to there. He had to show them literally where His kingdom was by ascending into heaven.

Hello Steve.

Yes, absolutely.

Jhn 18:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn018.html#36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Jewish religious leaders had added their oral traditions onto God's Word, which resulted in an erroneous understanding of the Messianic fulfillment of prophecy. These oral traditions are known today as the Talmud and Kabbalah. These are the traditions that Christ rebuked....

Mar 7:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar007.html#13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


These oral traditions are also referred to as the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees......

Mat 16:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat016.html#6) Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

This leaven has also made it's way into the churches today and causes many well meaning Christians to interpret Scripture and prophecy as the pharisees do. It reads scripture through the context of the flesh......instead of the Spirit.

Hagee is one of many examples of those who view scripture through this fleshy pharisee leaven.

God bless in Christ,
pinky

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 07:34 PM
Wow Pinky, that was an awesome post. Thank you! It certainly was not a wall of text. You will know one when you see it ;)

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 03:27 AM
What does the NT say about the Old Covenant??

The Old Covenant gendereth us into bondage....

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Amen, sista.......should not mix life and death.


ttyl,

janet

PandoraBVV
Nov 7th 2007, 07:01 PM
:hug:*Big Hugz* Janet

.........Have not had a chance to read through the entire thread yet, but I am getting there.
At this point I would like to simply say....

"Yeah, What Pinky Said!"

YSSICJ, Pan

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 07:04 PM
Welcome to the board Pandora :)

jewel4Christ
Nov 7th 2007, 08:10 PM
*Big Hugz* Janet

.........Have not had a chance to read through the entire thread yet, but I am getting there.
At this point I would like to simply say....

"Yeah, What Pinky Said!"

YSSICJ, Pan


:kiss:

peaceandlove,

janet

PandoraBVV
Nov 7th 2007, 09:05 PM
PS. Why does he do the Vulcan sign when he prays

I am still not finished reading through all the posts yet, but since I saw this on the first page and am familiar with the issue because of research I am involved in in the past few years, I will offer some very basic info for those who would like to dig deeper into why some Christians have taken up performing this ritual carried over from Priest System of Judaism.
A "Qwiki from Wiki"

Priestly Blessing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Kohanim_hands_blessing_photo.jpg/180px-Kohanim_hands_blessing_photo.jpg

The Priestly Blessing, (in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): Birkat Kohanim, ברכת כהנים), also known as nesiat kapayim (raising of the hands) is a Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) ceremony and prayer recited during certain Jewish services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_services).
In Judaism, only Kohanim can perform the nesiat kapayim ritual including the hand gestures, chant, etc
Contents
1 The ceremony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#The_ceremony)
1.1 Raising the hands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#Raising_the_hands)
1.2 The chant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#The_chant)
1.3 When performed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#When_performed)
2 The blessing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#The_blessing)
3 Laws and customs connected to the blessing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#Laws_and_customs_connected_to_th e_blessing)
3.1 In Conservative Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#In_Conservative_Judaism)
3.2 In Reform and Liberal Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#In_Reform_and_Liberal_Judaism)
4 If there are no Kohanim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#If_there_are_no_Kohanim)
5 Pop culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#Pop_culture)
6 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#References)
7 Further reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing#Further_reading)
Vulcan Salute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_salute



The Vulcan salute is a hand gesture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_gesture) consisting of a raised hand, palm forward with the fingers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger) parted between the middle and ring finger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_finger), and the thumb extended. The salute first appeared on the original Star Trek series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series) in the second season opening episode, "Amok Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amok_Time)". It was devised by Leonard Nimoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy), the actor who played the half-Vulcan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28Star_Trek%29) Mr. Spock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Spock).

....
In his autobiography I Am Not Spock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Not_Spock), Nimoy wrote that he based it on the Priestly Blessing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing) performed by Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) Kohanim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen) with both hands, thumb to thumb in this same position, representing the Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet) letter Shin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_%28letter%29) (ש), which has three upward strokes similar to the position of the thumb and fingers in the salute. The letter Shin here stands for Shaddai, meaning "Almighty (God)", and has a special significance in Judaism. Nimoy wrote that when he was a child, his grandfather took him to an Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism) synagogue. There he saw the blessing performed, and was very impressed by it.

Use outside of Star Trek
In the 1978 SF sitcom Mork & Mindy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mork_%26_Mindy), the Vulcan salute was spoofed by the main character Mork (Robin Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Williams)), whose greeting was to open and close his fingers in rapid succession while saying "Na-nu na-nu," which became a popular catchphrase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catchphrase).
The gesture features in Weird Al Yankovic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_Al_Yankovic)'s "White and Nerdy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_and_Nerdy)" music video.
It appears in an episode of The Colbert Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colbert_Report): in the segment "Word of the Day", after Stephen Colbert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Colbert) drapes a gold necklace saying "Word", in reference to a slang word for agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreement), he makes the gesture with both hands, as if he were flashing a gang sign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_sign).
The salute appears in the 2004 movie The Terminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal), as an acceptance of a marriage proposal.
It is a feature of Star Trak Entertainment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trak_Entertainment), a hip hop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_music) record label founded by Chad Hugo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad_Hugo) and Pharrell Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams).
The gesture is shown to be a greeting frequently used by Hiro Nakamura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiro_Nakamura), a character on the NBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC) science fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction) drama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama) Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_%28TV_Series%29).
It also appears in the episode "Fear Her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_Her)" of the British sci-fi show Doctor Who (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who).
George Takei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Takei) gave the salute on the NBC's improvisational comedy show Thank God You're Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_God_You%27re_Here) at the end of one of his sketches, entitled "AM Cooking Show."
On one of animated Leonard Nimoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Nimoy)'s appearances on The Simpsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Simpsons), Mayor Quimby salutes Nimoy with the Vulcan salute but mistakenly accompanying it with "May the Force be with you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_the_Force_be_with_you)", which is from the wrong franchise (Star Wars).
The Devil Major Arcana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_%28Tarot_card%29) of the Rider Waite Tarot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider-Waite_tarot_deck) deck makes a similar gesture.
On the Futurama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama) episode "Space Pilot 3000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pilot_3000)", Fry approaches Nimoy's head in a jar, and asks him to do the "Thing" (Giving Nimoy the salute). Nimoy's head chuckles and responds that "[he] [doesn't] do that anymore".

External links
Vulcan salute (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vulcan_salute) article at Memory Alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_Alpha), a Star Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek) wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki)
The Jewish Origin of the Vulcan Salute (http://www.pinenet.com/%7Erooster/v-salute.html) -- a very complete page by Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, with photos and diagrams of how the Salute forms the Hebrew letter Shin, the use of the Blessing Hands gesture on Jewish gravestones and jewelry, etc.

Whenever I post a Wiki link, please keep in mind that I only use Wikipedia for general info and as a simple basic starting point and I in no way consider Wikipedia info to be entirely accurate or correct. Thus why I call them a "Qwiki from Wiki".

YSSICJ, Pan

ikester7579
Nov 8th 2007, 09:53 AM
I used to watch him. I dont find him to be biblical.

Heres a link you can check out if you are interested (http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/fprophets.html#jhagee). I am not going to make an argument for or against. I just dont like him.

The link you provide reads like a gossip magazine. So I started looking for confirmations of what was claimed.

1) The claim about Hagee wanting to sell slaves reported by the elpaso times. I did a search at their website, Hagee is not even listed.
http://www.elpasotimes.com/circare/html/sca_template.jsp?query=john+hagee&view=entiresitesppublished

2) Then I searched on another news site claimed to have the apology. This site even went back to 1996 when it is claimed it was reported. Came up with nothing.
http://search.myplainview.com/search.php

3)
If just the above were all that could be reported on John Hagee, some might say there should not be major concern and there probably would not be. So what that he is divorced, a promoter of word-faith teaching and its proponents, and a slick marketeer for religious goods and products? So what that he showed insensitivity to African-Americans? It can all be overlooked since he helps so many and sends so much money to Israel, not to mention his contesting the service and fees of the U.S. Postal Service.

Non-profit organizations get non-profit postal rates. During the Clinton years his non-profit rate with the postal service was revoke for no other reason than Hagee speaking out against Clinton. In which he had to raise a lawsuit over it to get it back. The guy who seems to know so much needs to do a little more research, or is it that he leaves out little tid-bits like this to make Hagee look even worse.

Hagee even reported of a mail bomb that was being sent to him in which the FBI warned him about. The bomb blew up in the post office, but it did this when no one was working so no one got hurt. Hagee did a special report on this before each sermon for a week. I think he was sending a message to Clinton. I saw this on tv myself.

I find that this site also takes quotes out of context. How would you like it if someone quoted you and did not also quote your explaination about what was said and why?

You have to watch out for what I call: Hate monger sites. if you cannot confirm more than 50% of the really bad stuff said, that's a big red flag. I could not confirm any of the really bad claims about Hagee from the sources that this person claims they came from.

Merton
Nov 8th 2007, 10:12 AM
Hi,


I think that Hagee is another Jim Jones leading many deceived Christians to be badly hurt--this time in fighting for a worldly anti --Christ nation.

Christians should never be stirring up governments to go to war for religious purposes of their own. This is the first seal of Rev.ch 6 and has been on the go for quite some time and now leading well into the second seal. (Red is for Esau)

We know these religious strivings will all lead to a godless dictator slaughtering all religions who will not declare him to be their God (their supreme ruler)


and


It is when the members of any country bless the Christians in their own land that they will be blessed by God for it.

Merton.

jewel4Christ
Nov 8th 2007, 11:35 AM
Hi,


I think that Hagee is another Jim Jones leading many deceived Christians to be badly hurt--this time in fighting for a worldly anti --Christ nation.

Christians should never be stirring up governments to go to war for religious purposes of their own. This is the first seal of Rev.ch 6 and has been on the go for quite some time and now leading well into the second seal. (Red is for Esau)

We know these religious strivings will all lead to a godless dictator slaughtering all religions who will not declare him to be their God (their supreme ruler)


and


It is when the members of any country bless the Christians in their own land that they will be blessed by God for it.

Merton.
I agree.

I just want to say though, I agree we should not take someone's comments out of context, but, what we need to do is compare every man's teaching with the word of God.

Not judge the man, but, his doctrine. Jesus taught, "love your enemies, do good unto them that persecute you, do not return evil with evil"...these are the new covenant teachings of Jesus Christ, that the world does not know.


peaceandlove,


janet

I<3Jesus
Nov 8th 2007, 01:42 PM
The one thing that has always bothered me about him is the "Jew Exchange Program" (for lack of a better phrase). I understand that he does it because he thinks that he is helping to fulfill God's word, but I do not think that any man should take it upon himself to do that. The Lord will do it on his time, not ours. I get leery of anyone who tries to play God. In this case, I feel like that is what he is trying to do. Can anyone who may know more about this subject enlighten me on it?

pinky
Nov 8th 2007, 01:43 PM
I agree.

I just want to say though, I agree we should not take someone's comments out of context, but, what we need to do is compare every man's teaching with the word of God.

Not judge the man, but, his doctrine. Jesus taught, "love your enemies, do good unto them that persecute you, do not return evil with evil"...these are the new covenant teachings of Jesus Christ, that the world does not know.


peaceandlove,


janet

Absolutely.

We as Christians are instructed to 'judge' doctrines, try the spirits, measure the fruit, etc.

Not all those who say Lord, Lord are known of Him. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing that we are to be on our guard against so that we are not deceived.

Hi Pandora! Nice to meet you. It looks like you and I have been researching the same subject.:cool:

God bless,
pinky

pinky
Nov 8th 2007, 03:16 PM
I would like to add something here that was discussed in another thread that is now locked. http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=83636&page=7

[If this is improper forum ettiquette for me to do this, I will humbly accept any rebuke on the matter.]

I don't wish to carry that debate over into this thread, I only desire to make a point about Hagee's pharisee leaven and I will leave it at that.

Hagee had said that Joseph proved his identity to his brothers by showing them his circumcision. It was asked where in the Bible is this stated?

It is not in the Bible but actually is a Talmudic tradition (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qwFDNN8r24YJ:www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayigash/lub.html+joseph+brothers+circumcised+talmud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=ca).

More and more Hagee is showing his talmudic agenda, but to fully understand to what extent he does this, it seems one needs to be somewhat familiar with these traditions.

That is a very involved subject though.

God bless in Christ,
pinky

Merton
Nov 8th 2007, 10:54 PM
I agree.

I just want to say though, I agree we should not take someone's comments out of context, but, what we need to do is compare every man's teaching with the word of God.

Not judge the man, but, his doctrine. Jesus taught, "love your enemies, do good unto them that persecute you, do not return evil with evil"...these are the new covenant teachings of Jesus Christ, that the world does not know.


peaceandlove,


janet


A mans doctrine is the man---

Pro 23:6 Eat thou not the bread of himthathath an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Merton.

DeafPosttrib
Nov 9th 2007, 07:08 PM
Several years ago, I watched John Hagee at Trinity Broadcost Network on T.V. cable. I don't like his attitude. He thinks he is a fanastic preacher, and being boast himself for doing big decorated big displays during sermon like, end times, envolutionism, dispensationalism, Israel, etc. These make him looks famous and amazing teacher. He seems think he is always right everything what he saying. But, there are too many errors in his preachings.

God only have one people, not divided.

Pinky,

Everything what you say, I agree with you.

I am not a dispensationalist.

The blessing was given to Abrahm, that he is the father of many nations, not just for 'Jewish' nation only.

Galatians chapter 3 explains clear about the promise of seed. Paul told us, many of us are now part of God's seed through Jesus Christ, not because of ethnic nation, because of our FAITH in Christ.

Paul told us, Gentiles are already part of promise that thyey are in Christ's seed by through their faith.

Nothing else anywhere in the New Testament saying something about future restoration nation of Israel in the end time. Bible tells us, we are already part of commonwealth of Israel, because we are already reconciled together with Jews became one through Calvary - Ephesians chapter 2. No longer there is divided or separated between Gentiles and Jews forever and ever.

I believe John Hagee makiing lot of money for to make people attracting on him for being fancy decorated of his church, show that he is the fanastic pastor and best ever teacher.

Hagee is supporting Zionism Movement. Zionism Movement is a worldy government, not God's way. 1948 restoration nation of Israel was caused by Zionism Movement, and approved by United of Nations council. 1948 restoration nation was not caused by God. It was caused by sinners. God allows them to happening.

This modern Israel is not a truly Christian nation, it is filled of chaos and wars. Most of Jews in Israel are lost, not believe Jesus is their true Messiah.

Romans 11:24-26 telling us, not all Israel are true Israel. It speaks of people who are in blood linelage or descendants from Abraham were truly Jews, but they are not truly 'Israel', because they not believe in Jesus Christ. Only remain of 'remant' are truly Israel, because they believe Jesus. God removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief. But, only remain Jews are saty in the same tree because of their belief. God already grafted Gentiles unto the tree join with Jews together. We are already part of Israel.

'All Israel be saved' is not speak of future restoration nation at second advent. It speaks of it shall be completed both all Gentiles and Jews are saved by through calvary, as Ephesians 2 explained that Christ already reconciled both became one through cross.

By the way, I have not been watch TBN on T.V., because it is filled of trashes, and deceived. They making lot of money for being deceiving people for being believing in miracles and healings. Benny Hinn doesn't care of people's souls. He only want is money. Right now, FBI is doing investigating on him. Even, Senates or Congress are asking questions on Hinn. He is in trouble. But, He is remain free. wait till one day, he shall face before Christ at the judgment day, he will be sorry.

I believe John Hagee is invloved with TBN, because of making money. TBN is doing their own dirty business, not think of people's souls(their need of salvation).

God will judge TBN one day.

I don't support John Hagee and TBN. I am interesting in Bible with truths.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

skc53
Nov 9th 2007, 07:42 PM
Pinky,
Here is the verse you were asking about. Please read it slow!

Genesis 12: 1-3
1. Now the Lord had said to Abram; Get out of your country, From your family and from your father's house, TO A LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.
2. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great:
3. I will bless those who bless you(Israel), and I will curse him who curse you(Israel); and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

DeafPosttrib
Nov 9th 2007, 08:30 PM
This seems speak of future millennial kingdom that, Israel shall possess their own land.

But, this doesn't say 'one thousand years'.

In Genesis 15:18 tells us, God promised him, He shall given himn the land from river of Egypt to Euphrate.

And this passage already fulfilled during Joshua's time, Israel already posssessed land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River in 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 2 Kings 24:7; and 1 Chron. 18:3. King David already possessed land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River. Israle already possessed them as God has promised to Abraham.

BUT, Abraham was not looking forward for earthly city, he was looking for heavenly city, which is New Jerusalem where God dwells - Hebrews 11:10; and 11:15-16.

We are not looking for earthly city or land, because this present old earth shall be destroyed by fire at second coming, so, we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, so, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land on new earth, and we shall dwell in it forever and ever - 2 Peter 3:10-13; and Revelation chapter 21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Merton
Nov 9th 2007, 08:34 PM
Genesis 12: 1-3
1. Now the Lord had said to Abram; Get out of your country, From your family and from your father's house, TO A LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.
2. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great:
3. I will bless those who bless you(Israel), and I will curse him who curse you(Israel); and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.



Rom 9:8 That is: Not the children of flesh are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for a seed.
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written, "Cursed is everyone having been hung on a tree;" Deut. 21:23Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might be to the nations in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brothers, I speak according to man, a covenant having been ratified, even among mankind, no one sets aside or adds to it.
Gal 3:16 But the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his Seed (it does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ). Genesis 3:15; 21:12; 22:18, Rom. 9:6; Heb. 11:18Gal 3:17 And I say this, A covenant having been ratified before to Christ by God, the Law coming into being four hundred and thirty years after, does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God has given it to Abraham through promise.
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was for the sake of transgressions, until the Seed should come, to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in a mediator's hand.
Gal 3:20 But the Mediator is not of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Then is the Law against the promises of God? Let it not be! For if a law had been given which had been able to make alive, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture locked up all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing.
Gal 3:23 But before the coming of faith, we were guarded under Law, having been locked up to the faith being about to be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But faith coming, we are no longer under a trainer;
Gal 3:26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor freeman, there is no male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are of Christ, then you are a seed of Abraham, even heirs according to promise


Merton

pinky
Nov 9th 2007, 08:37 PM
DeafPosttrib!

What a joy to meet you.

I totally agree with you. I consider TBN to be "The Babylonian Network" as it is all fleshy, worldy, materialistic doctrines that push the antichrist, political zionist/talmudic/pharisee agenda.

Jhn 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn002.html#16) And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

2Pe 2:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Pe/2Pe002.html#3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


My heart sings with joy for every saint that can see these things, as our Lord would have none of us decieved.

May the Lord keep you and bless you,
pinky



Genesis 12: 1-3

1. Now the Lord had said to Abram; Get out of your country, From your family and from your father's house, TO A LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.
2. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great:
3. I will bless those who bless you(Israel), and I will curse him who curse you(Israel); and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.


Hello skc53.

The land that God showed Abraham is the 'promised land' which is a vision of the heavenly Kingdom.....imho.

Also, he says I will bless those who bless YOU. It does not say "Israel" as you have added.

You see, this is a talmudic/pharisee interpretation of this verse and is the favorite of the talmudic rabbis to impose on well meaning Christians to garner our blind support for their rebellious and antichrist agenda called the state of Israel and it's vision of 'greater Israel'.

They are trying to build Zion through blood and iniqutiy, without the cornerstone, Jesus Christ....which is doomed to failure and God's judgement. Sadly many Christians support their enterprise, thinking they are doing God a service and abandoning the righteousness that Christ has taught us.


Mic 3:10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

Isa 28:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa028.html#16) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

2Ch 19:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Ch/2Ch019.html#2) And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD [Jesus]? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Jhn 15:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn015.html#23) He that hateth me hateth my Father also.


The NT makes more than clear WHO is blessed with Abraham, (regardless of what the rabbis say)...


Gal 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gal/Gal003.html#9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.



God bless you,
pinky

jewel4Christ
Nov 9th 2007, 10:09 PM
Amen, Pinky.

Godbless you in your boldness to speak the truth of this matter.

God bless anyone whom is bold enough to look beyond the traditions of those whom would put "fleshly" things above and beyond what God intended, from the beginning.

God bless you deafpostrib.

God bless us all in our studies.


peaceandlove,


janet

Merton
Nov 10th 2007, 10:04 PM
This seems speak of future millennial kingdom that, Israel shall possess their own land.

But, this doesn't say 'one thousand years'.

In Genesis 15:18 tells us, God promised him, He shall given himn the land from river of Egypt to Euphrate.

And this passage already fulfilled during Joshua's time, Israel already posssessed land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River in 2 Samuel 8:3; 2 Kings 23:29; 2 Kings 24:7; and 1 Chron. 18:3. King David already possessed land from river of Egypt to Euphrate River. Israle already possessed them as God has promised to Abraham.

BUT, Abraham was not looking forward for earthly city, he was looking for heavenly city, which is New Jerusalem where God dwells - Hebrews 11:10; and 11:15-16.

We are not looking for earthly city or land, because this present old earth shall be destroyed by fire at second coming, so, we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, so, New Jerusalem shall descend out of third heaven, land on new earth, and we shall dwell in it forever and ever - 2 Peter 3:10-13; and Revelation chapter 21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!


This is the corrected order of the verses--

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:16 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Rev 21:1 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:2 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, andbe their God.


The Heavenly Jerusalem IS the glorified saints with Jesus in the glory of His Father and the Holy angels.


Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are thenames of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, accordingto the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
Isa 60:10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favor have I had mercy on thee.
Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings maybe brought.
Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.


Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


(as under the NC)

Merton.

skc53
Nov 11th 2007, 02:29 PM
The link you provide reads like a gossip magazine. So I started looking for confirmations of what was claimed.

1) The claim about Hagee wanting to sell slaves reported by the elpaso times. I did a search at their website, Hagee is not even listed.
http://www.elpasotimes.com/circare/html/sca_template.jsp?query=john+hagee&view=entiresitesppublished

2) Then I searched on another news site claimed to have the apology. This site even went back to 1996 when it is claimed it was reported. Came up with nothing. This doesn't surprise me. Sounds like a lot of false accusations to me.
http://search.myplainview.com/search.php

3)

Non-profit organizations get non-profit postal rates. During the Clinton years his non-profit rate with the postal service was revoke for no other reason than Hagee speaking out against Clinton. In which he had to raise a lawsuit over it to get it back. The guy who seems to know so much needs to do a little more research, or is it that he leaves out little tid-bits like this to make Hagee look even worse.

Hagee even reported of a mail bomb that was being sent to him in which the FBI warned him about. The bomb blew up in the post office, but it did this when no one was working so no one got hurt. Hagee did a special report on this before each sermon for a week. I think he was sending a message to Clinton. I saw this on tv myself.

I find that this site also takes quotes out of context. How would you like it if someone quoted you and did not also quote your explaination about what was said and why? Amen to that!

You have to watch out for what I call: Hate monger sites. if you cannot confirm more than 50% of the really bad stuff said, that's a big red flag. I could not confirm any of the really bad claims about Hagee from the sources that this person claims they came from. I agree with that!

KingdomBound
Nov 11th 2007, 10:20 PM
Also, he says I will bless those who bless YOU. It does not say "Israel" as you have added.

You see, this is a talmudic/pharisee interpretation of this verse and is the favorite of the talmudic rabbis to impose on well meaning Christians to garner our blind support for their rebellious and antichrist agenda called the state of Israel and it's vision of 'greater Israel'.

They are trying to build Zion through blood and iniqutiy, without the cornerstone, Jesus Christ....which is doomed to failure and God's judgement. Sadly many Christians support their enterprise, thinking they are doing God a service and abandoning the righteousness that Christ has taught us.

I'm shocked by your posts. This one in particular. I'm also saddened by all the support you are receiving from 'christians' for these posts.

Genesis 12:1-3,7

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

It's obvious the Lord was speaking about Israel here. God told Abraham in verse 2 (look above) that he would make of him a great nation and will bless you and make your name great! The great nation that God made of Abraham is Israel whether you like it or not. Then God goes on to say that those who bless you, your seed, this great nation that I will make of you, will be blessed and those that curse you will be cursed.
I don't know about you but I'd be very afraid to say anything bad about Israel the great nation that God made of Abraham. I don't believe God was kidding when He said the above.


Please read Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

skc53
Nov 12th 2007, 12:47 AM
[quote=KingdomBound;1437769]I'm shocked by your posts. This one in particular. I'm also saddened by all the support you are receiving from 'christians' for these posts.

Genesis 12:1-3,7

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

It's obvious the Lord was speaking about Israel here. God told Abraham in verse 2 (look above) that he would make of him a great nation and will bless you and make your name great! The great nation that God made of Abraham is Israel whether you like it or not. Then God goes on to say that those who bless you, your seed, this great nation that I will make of you, will be blessed and those that curse you will be cursed.Thank you Kingdom Bound for posting this. I posted this in an earlier post but was told that when God said when those who bless you will be blessed and those who curse you will be cursed, it wasn't referring to Israel. Oh but it is referring to Israel.
I don't know about you but I'd be very afraid to say anything bad about Israel the great nation that God made of Abraham. I don't believe God was kidding when He said the above.

When it comes to Israel, it isn't a joking matter to God. I agree with you on this! God Bless you!

KingdomBound
Nov 12th 2007, 04:20 PM
Thank you Kingdom Bound for posting this. I posted this in an earlier post but was told that when God said when those who bless you will be blessed and those who curse you will be cursed, it wasn't referring to Israel. Oh but it is referring to Israel.

Yes, it is definitely referring to Israel. We as christians should pray for and support Israel.

When it comes to Israel, it isn't a joking matter to God. I agree with you on this! God Bless you!

Yes, God means what He says.

God bless you.:)

skc53
Nov 12th 2007, 05:30 PM
Thank you Kingdom Bound for posting this. I posted this in an earlier post but was told that when God said when those who bless you will be blessed and those who curse you will be cursed, it wasn't referring to Israel. Oh but it is referring to Israel.

Yes, it is definitely referring to Israel. We as christians should pray for and support Israel.

When it comes to Israel, it isn't a joking matter to God. I agree with you on this! God Bless you!

Yes, God means what He says.

God bless you.:)
I would rather be blessed than cursed! I support Israel, and I think anything that we can do to help them would be a blessing. Amen!! God Bless you!;):pray:

pinky
Nov 12th 2007, 09:32 PM
I don't know about you but I'd be very afraid to say anything bad about Israel the great nation that God made of Abraham.

The prophets had some pretty harsh things to say about physical Israel. Do you suppose God cursed the prophets?

Jesus told some of the physical seed of Abraham they are the children of satan, called them vipers and serpents, do you suppose...........nah.

Who does the NT indentify as the true seed of Abraham to whom the promises were given?

Kingsdaughter
Nov 12th 2007, 09:50 PM
Father we lift up the nation of Israel and the jewish people, we pray Lord that you will bless them and keep them safe, in Jesus name. Amen and amen.

:hug:Trina

jewel4Christ
Nov 13th 2007, 02:06 AM
Quote:
I don't know about you but I'd be very afraid to say anything bad about Israel the great nation that God made of Abraham.
The prophets had some pretty harsh things to say about physical Israel. Do you suppose God cursed the prophets?

Jesus told some of the physical seed of Abraham they are the children of satan, called them vipers and serpents, do you suppose...........nah.

Who does the NT indentify as the true seed of Abraham to whom the promises were given?
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1438755)

Yes, we must learn to discern btween that which followeth after the flesh, and that which God says is truly the seed of Abraham. NOT all Israel IS the Israel of God....not those whom walk after the flesh are counted as the seed.

Yet, today.....not many understand Jesus words on this matter.

I will not support the works of the flesh, and call them godly.

To each his own.

False theology and leaning towards the teachings of men will not get one in the will of God, no matter HOW much we would like to think it does.
'


Beware of false prophets....Jesus warned us, Paul warned us, and many others will continue to warn us.


peaceandlove,


janet

jewel4Christ
Nov 13th 2007, 02:14 AM
Father we lift up the nation of Israel and the jewish people, we pray Lord that you will bless them and keep them safe, in Jesus name. Amen and amen.

:hug:Trina

Yes, pray God will lead them to repentance.


Safety is not a guarantee, however, if one is walking in the ways of the flesh, and in fact, physical safety is not even something that those whom walk after the spirit can expect.

Godly life is not about trying to keep one's flesh in a safe mode.

All men reap what they sow.

Yet the children of God do not sow to the flesh, as we see written.....and, that means they do not worry much about it.


peaceandlove,


janet

LCPGUY
Nov 13th 2007, 02:20 AM
Forgive me if this has already been posted.

But, check it out and then see what you think of him.

HERE (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI&eurl=http://infowars.net/articles/november2007/081107Shills.htm)

He is denying that Christ was/is the Messiah. See and hear for yourself.

pinky
Nov 13th 2007, 01:17 PM
Amen Janet.

Certainly we should pray for their salvation, as we should for all the lost souls in this world. But we shouldn't have respect for their persons, as this is a sin....

Jam 2:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Pro 28:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Pro/Pro028.html#21) To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

Nor should we say "they have Abraham to their father" as the pharisees did.....and were rebuked for.

The pharisees were (and still are) very puffed up in their genealogy to Abraham, which is pride of the flesh and contrary to God. We as Christians should not be making the same mistake.

We should avoid these genealogies, as they are vain and unprofitable...

Tts 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Tts/Tts003.html#9) But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

The flesh profits NOTHING.....

Jhn 6:63 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn006.html#63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



We should also pray for the Palestinians, many of whom are Christian and are suffering greatly.

God bless,
pinky

pinky
Nov 13th 2007, 01:18 PM
Forgive me if this has already been posted.

But, check it out and then see what you think of him.

HERE (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI&eurl=http://infowars.net/articles/november2007/081107Shills.htm)

He is denying that Christ was/is the Messiah. See and hear for yourself.


Hopefully this will be an eye opener for those who follow his ministry.

God bless,
pinky

KingdomBound
Nov 13th 2007, 06:09 PM
The jews rejecting Jesus was all in God's plan to save you and I, so I would not become all high and mighty regarding the jewish people.
Yes, we do pray that they will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but we must also understand that because of their unbelief salvation came to you and me, to all of us through Jesus Christ.

I will repost these very important verses in Romans 11

11I say then, Have they (the jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles (you and I), for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches (the jews). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches (the jews) were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

We don't understand all of God's judgments, ways, and plans... and we don't have to! We just rejoice in that Jesus has saved us!


John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Because of the jews unbelief salvation is come to all of us through Christ Jesus!



Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6

jewel4Christ
Nov 13th 2007, 11:31 PM
The jews rejecting Jesus was all in God's plan to save you and I, so I would not become all high and mighty regarding the jewish people.

Who has become high and mighty for speaking the truth of this matter?

All we are saying is that from the beginning, God was NOT a respector of persons based on the FLESH.

Do you agree or do you disagree? Does your agreement then mean that you too are high and mighty?

If you disagree, then you are in conflict with the word of God on this matter.



Yes, we do pray that they will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but we must also understand that because of their unbelief salvation came to you and me, to all of us through Jesus Christ.

There were gentiles saved under the old covenant, in the same way that gentiles are saved today..by faith.

Rahab, for example, was a gentile.

God accepted her due to her faith, not her flesh.

Not everyone is dispensational in their understanding of God.

He has always remained someone whom does not respect people by flesh alone.

The one's cut off in this following example that you provided, shows completely WHY they were cut off, due to UNBELIEF, which means, they had NO faith.

So, again, all we are saying is that it is biblically wrong to suggest that God expects us to support a "people" of any race, due to their flesh alone. I do not see that written.

Israel, according to the word of God includes ONLY those OF FAITH.

Israel of the flesh, without FAITH are not counted as the seed. Have you read these verses?




I will repost these very important verses in Romans 11

11I say then, Have they (the jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles (you and I), for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches (the jews). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches (the jews) were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

We don't understand all of God's judgments, ways, and plans... and we don't have to! We just rejoice in that Jesus has saved us!


John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Because of the jews unbelief salvation is come to all of us through Christ Jesus!



I see nothing in this set of verses that state we should respect a jew by flesh alone.

In fact, that thought is foriegn to the word of God, and, anyone whom would teach or accept the theology, such as Hagee teaches, that denies a need for them to really have to repent, is exactly what the enemy wants US to beleive.

Have you read where Hagee has stated that they don't really need to repent, because they will be saved anyway, by a new covenant, that he teaches has not even come yet?

I consider him to be a false teacher.

That does not mean that everyone has to agree with me, or anyone else.
Everyone is free to follow whomever they choose.


:idea:

I won't be following his ways, though.


peaceandlove,

janet

KingdomBound
Nov 14th 2007, 12:18 AM
I would rather be blessed than cursed! I support Israel, and I think anything that we can do to help them would be a blessing. Amen!! God Bless you!;):pray:

Amen! It's good to see christians actually supporting Israel the way God instructed us to!

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 122:6

KingdomBound
Nov 14th 2007, 12:35 AM
All we are saying is that from the beginning, God was NOT a respector of persons based on the FLESH.

Do you agree or do you disagree? Does your agreement then mean that you too are high and mighty?

If you disagree, then you are in conflict with the word of God on this matter.

I know that God is no respector of people, but wouldn't you agree that He holds a very special place in His heart for His people Israel? We ALL know He does!

Deuteronomy 7
6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14
2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

In Genesis chapter 12 verses 2 and 3, God made it clear what would happen to those who do not bless Israel. You cannot twist those verses around to suit you because you refuse to support Israel.

God has a special plan for His chosen people Israel and we don't have to figure out what that is because it's none of our business and our brains are probably too small to try and figure it out anyways. We are to just follow Him!

pinky
Nov 14th 2007, 12:37 AM
Hello KingdomBound.

Just so you know, according to the state of Israel's "law of return" I am considered 'racially pure' enough to live there as a Jew. In fact, I used to be quite proud of this at one time, until the Lord convicted me through His Word and His impression upon my heart, that this is a very vain pride and is not pleasing to Him.

He does not glory in my flesh, nor should I......nor will I glory in the flesh of any man.

I have since repented of this vain glory and I thank the Lord wholeheartedly for showing me the grievous error of it.

God bless,
pinky

jewel4Christ
Nov 14th 2007, 01:05 AM
Quote:
All we are saying is that from the beginning, God was NOT a respector of persons based on the FLESH.

Do you agree or do you disagree? Does your agreement then mean that you too are high and mighty?

If you disagree, then you are in conflict with the word of God on this matter.
I know that God is no respector of people, but wouldn't you agree that He holds a very special place in His heart for His people Israel? We ALL know He does!

Rom 9:6


Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=7&version=kjv#7)
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=8&version=kjv#8)
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

As already said, one must have FAITH/by PROMISE, to be counted as the seed of Abraham.

If you want to agree with Mr Hagee, that one can be the seed of Abraham, by flesh alone, that is your right. I do not agree, for the word does not teach that.


peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Nov 14th 2007, 01:44 AM
If you want to agree with Mr Hagee, that one can be the seed of Abraham, by flesh alone, that is your right. I do not agree, for the word does not teach that.



Given that Hagee now says that Jesus did not come to be the Messiah should cause any well meaning and sincere believer in Christ to reconsider his entire ministry and consider whether or not there is an antichrist agenda at work here...........because for him to say that Christ did not come to be the Messiah is most assuredly antichrist.

The fact that he rallies his flock to war is another obvious huge red flag that should resonate with those who seek to follow the teachings of Christ.

Let us also keep in mind that the pharisees tried to use the argument against Christ and boasted that thay are 'the children of Abraham'.....and what did Christ say to them....


Jhn 8:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html#39) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html#40) But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Kingsdaughter
Nov 14th 2007, 06:33 AM
Yes, pray God will lead them to repentance.


Safety is not a guarantee, however, if one is walking in the ways of the flesh, and in fact, physical safety is not even something that those whom walk after the spirit can expect.

Godly life is not about trying to keep one's flesh in a safe mode.

All men reap what they sow.

Yet the children of God do not sow to the flesh, as we see written.....and, that means they do not worry much about it.


peaceandlove,


janet

Janet,

Should I NOT have prayed for the safety of the jewish people? Or would it have been better if I not prayed for them at all?
Should we not as believers pray for the "physical safety" of others?
Please forgive me if I'm missing your point.
So my husband who was in Iraq in 2003 should I have not prayed that the Lord keep him safe because" physical safety is not a guarantee?" I'm reading your post and you're saying that I can pray for safety, but really it doesn't do anything because safety is not a guarantee? When I prayed and asked my Father to protect my husband"physically" in Iraq, I believed that He would do it and I did not doubt. And He protected him physically indeed! Praise the Lord!

Instead of going back and forth on this subject, why don't we all pray that the Lord will reveal the truth of His word in our hearts by the Holy Spirit living in us, praying not only for ourselves but for eachother as well.

Love in Christ,
Trina

angelus5370
Nov 14th 2007, 08:00 AM
First, I have been a supporter of Israel, and the jews for quite awhile, and even give donations to the cause. I have even received a beautiful prayer shawl for helping them with donations. But, my eyes are opened to what goes on in Jerusalem that is not favorable, such as a Jewish Sect called the gur, persecuting Jews who believe in Christ, to the point of burning their buildings down, etc. This does not change my opinion or love of the Jewish people or Israel.

I use to watch John Hagee every week until this information came out. I have only one question that I would ask John Hagee. He is loved, and a friend to Israel, a Rabbi gave the prayer at the conference in Washington, and he has received awards and recognized by the people of Israel.

My only question would be: have you told the Jewish people that are honoring you, that Jesus Christ was the Messiah? I believe the answer to that may be "NO". Was he wrong by not revealing the truth? Or is it that he knows their hearts are hardened at this point, and the truth will be revealed to them during the "Abomination of Desolation." Would that not, then be a contradiction of what he preaches in his church? To befriend the Jewish people, and not reveal the truth would be an injustice to them, and if he did reveal the truth, I don't think he would be such a close friend to the Jewish people.

It would be like hiding a light under a bowl.........:(

jewel4Christ
Nov 14th 2007, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1439055#post1439055)
Yes, pray God will lead them to repentance.


Safety is not a guarantee, however, if one is walking in the ways of the flesh, and in fact, physical safety is not even something that those whom walk after the spirit can expect.

Godly life is not about trying to keep one's flesh in a safe mode.

All men reap what they sow.

Yet the children of God do not sow to the flesh, as we see written.....and, that means they do not worry much about it.


peaceandlove,


janet


Janet,

Should I NOT have prayed for the safety of the jewish people? Or would it have been better if I not prayed for them at all?

Of course we should pray for the safety of all men. The point I was trying to make though, is that none of us are guaranteed PHYSICAL safety....even christians, and when God says we will reap what we sow, He meant it. Destruction and violence only breeds more..or do you disagree with that?



Should we not as believers pray for the "physical safety" of others?
Please forgive me if I'm missing your point.
So my husband who was in Iraq in 2003 should I have not prayed that the Lord keep him safe because" physical safety is not a guarantee?" I'm reading your post and you're saying that I can pray for safety, but really it doesn't do anything because safety is not a guarantee?


I am not understanding you.

Let me just say that yes, we can pray, but, that does not guarantee safety will be provided.

What of the many men whom have died..in this vain war?

Do you think their families did not pray?

I believe they did.



When I prayed and asked my Father to protect my husband"physically" in Iraq, I believed that He would do it and I did not doubt. And He protected him physically indeed! Praise the Lord!


So, what of the other christians that prayed the same?..and, their loved one's were killed?

We have a younge man right now, whom was killed, and I can assure you his whole family had prayed for his protection.

I am not saying it is wrong to pray for protection, but, I am saying that sometimes we do not get what we pray for, for reasons that GOD knows.



Instead of going back and forth on this subject, why don't we all pray that the Lord will reveal the truth of His word in our hearts by the Holy Spirit living in us, praying not only for ourselves but for eachother as well.

Love in Christ,
Trina

Amen to that.

God has put it on my heart already, though to beware of false teachers whom come to steal the sheep. A teaching that denies Jesus is the Messiah, and that Israel does not have to repent now, because they are PURPOSELY blinded by a God that wants the gospel to go to ALL NATIONS is huge error.

I am not judging Hagee, I am making a firm judgement against his false teachings. God will deal with him.

peaceandlove,

janet

Kingsdaughter
Nov 14th 2007, 04:11 PM
Janet,

I can only speak for myself and not anyone else, I don't why some bad things happen in this world, but I trust that God knows whats happening and that He is still in control of all things. I know that in my own relationship with Him, when I pray and ask Him to protect my children or husband or other, I believe that He will do it, as far as my own safety is concerned as a believer, which is better to say that " my safety is not a guarantee" or to say " to live is Christ and to die is gain";)

I will agree to disagree with you on this subject, put my request for prayer still stands:). God bless you.

Trina

jewel4Christ
Nov 15th 2007, 12:36 PM
I will agree to disagree with you on this subject, put my request for prayer still stands:). God bless you.

Trina http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1440585)


:kiss:Yes, that is my perspective, too.

God bless you, too.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Nov 22nd 2007, 04:07 AM
The truth is coming out......please listen to this, it is a trunews radio cast of an interview with Malachi Yosef, whom is working to denounce the huge error of Hagee. Malachi is a jew, whom knows the Messiah did come to the jew.

This was broadcast 11/16/07.





http://www.trunews.com/Audio/m3u/11_16_07_friday_Trunews.m3u

peaceandlove,

janet

Libre
Nov 30th 2007, 04:41 AM
The truth is coming out......please listen to this, it is a trunews radio cast of an interview with Malachi Yosef, whom is working to denounce the huge error of Hagee. Malachi is a jew, whom knows the Messiah did come to the jew.

This was broadcast 11/16/07.





http://www.trunews.com/Audio/m3u/11_16_07_friday_Trunews.m3u

peaceandlove,

janetGood link, there jewel. I have listened to it a couple of times. There is really no wiggle room on this. Hagee is misled and is misleading many. It's is a rampant thing in Christendom today to elevate political Israel to almost idolic status. I have heard it over and over on broadcasts on TBN. Men of God, who should know how to rightly read their Bibles, are chasing after fables about the end and are giving heed to those who tickle the ears.

May someone stand up for truth soon. Someone God will use to teach truth. But if not, God is not thwarted, and will use the errors to His glory. Of that, I am sure.

Libre

St_Michael
Nov 30th 2007, 04:58 AM
Mr. Hagee is part of a true deception in the evangelical church.

The "Word of Faith" movement is a deception and heresy.

It is a cult. It is wrapped in Christian Gnosticism and Pagan Mysticism.

Please research this lie by going to ANY apologetics group or website.

Keywords include:
Word-Faith
Word of Faith
Prosperity Gospel
Health and Wealth
Seed-Faith
Name it - Claim it
Positive Confession

The main false prophets to research:

Ken Copeland and wife Gloria
Benny Hinn
Joyce Meyer
Robert Tilton
Ted Haggard
Paul and Jan Crouch
Marilyn Hickey
Rod Parsley
Fred Price
Kennenth Hagin
Oral / Richard Roberts -- ORU
Creflo Dollar
Jerry Savelle
Charles Capps

and many more...

TBN is a broadcasted cult. It is shameful these people call themselves Christian.

Libre
Nov 30th 2007, 05:10 AM
I cannot agree that all these people are false prophets. They are mainly people of God. They are often misled. But false prophet speaks false things and says they are from God. Knowingly. These TV folks are just more prominent and make fools of themselves openly. I really don't watch TBN much, because if someone is going to make a fool of himself, I'd prefer to watch a sinner do it.

This is why I say that God will take this mess and use it for His glory. He already does, for people get saved under the preaching of these misled people. Just David would not take Saul's life when he had the chance, we ought not to revile God's servants. Unless or until the prove themselves to be contrary to the gospel. The gospel and the person of Jesus stand alone and above all else. The rest is usually man's opinion.

Libre

markedward
Nov 30th 2007, 05:30 AM
My mom watches him and turned me onto his Sunday morning show. Once you get past all the peddling of wares (that drives me bonkers!), I find that I am really drawn to his messages. As a rule I normally do not watch TV evangelists. Most of them seem to be in it for earthly treasure (big paychecks, homes, fancy cars, etc). I do not know much about him, so I was wondering what the general consensus is about him. Is his show worth DVRing every week (I am supposed to be getting ready for church, but I am sick)? Do you think that he is a messenger of God? Thanks!I've read some of his teachings, and I personally think what I've read so far is unBiblical.

From his teachings that I have read, he has, on previous occasions, taught that if we continually believe we can be wealthy (material-wise), and we continually pray for material wealth that we will indeed receive it.

In fact, he has stated before that poverty is a punishment for sins! Nothing Biblical supports this, and in fact, Jesus describes numerous stories of the wealthy being more sinful than the poor.

I don't know much about his other doctrines, but from what I've read about his teachings in regards to material wealth, he is not speaking Biblically, in which case, can we really trust him in his other teachings?

the rookie
Nov 30th 2007, 06:08 AM
I personally think we should take care when throwing around the word "cult" related to other folks in the body of Christ.

A cult, by definition, is a group with a charismatic and attractive leader fostering an atmosphere that is easy to join, hard to leave...and no one can disagree with any points made by the charismatic leader.

There is often great control, manipulation, and abuse happening within the context of such a group to foster the "hard to leave" part.

Most who use the word "cult" do so because they can't think of a better way to protect people from what they feel are grievous (and harmful) doctrinal errors - but by being imprecise with their language, they end up joining the chorus of the many crying "wolf" and no one takes the warning seriously anymore, since often any who have a theology that differs from theirs is usually a "cult".

So I would recommend that we say things like, "the implications of the message are harmful to the believer", or any other derivatives that can be helpful to actually be helpful in gently guiding a believer to sound doctrinal truth rather than just pointing at the error and crying foul. I just don't find the "cult" term helpful at all, personally.

I<3Jesus
Nov 30th 2007, 06:09 AM
I've read some of his teachings, and I personally think what I've read so far is unBiblical.

From his teachings that I have read, he has, on previous occasions, taught that if we continually believe we can be wealthy (material-wise), and we continually pray for material wealth that we will indeed receive it.

In fact, he has stated before that poverty is a punishment for sins! Nothing Biblical supports this, and in fact, Jesus describes numerous stories of the wealthy being more sinful than the poor.

I don't know much about his other doctrines, but from what I've read about his teachings in regards to material wealth, he is not speaking Biblically, in which case, can we really trust him in his other teachings?

Thanks Marked. I decided not to watch his program and I informed my Mom. She is still watching it, but she is no longer buying his products.

Thirst
Nov 30th 2007, 10:53 AM
I like Pastor Hagee. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. Is His doctrine sound and absolutely correct? Doubtful; he probably has opinions and theories like the rest of us that might be a little off. Look at some of the debates on here, many Christians disagree on doctrine, but that does not make them any less of a Christian. Truth be told, we do not know his heart, and it truly disheartens me to hear some people question his faith and dedication to Christ -- and I am not just talking about this message board, but other places as well. We do measure what someone says with the Word of God, but I think calling into question someone's salvation because of misspoken or errant words is wrong. I have seen people on this forum that have trouble forgiving others, are caught up in habitual sin, break commandments, and the list goes on... We don't run and point fingers and question their salvation -- so why do it at all? Again, I am not singling anyone out on this forum, but in general. It seems to happen a lot.

Is God concerned that we understand the Word completely? Maybe, but I believe He is more concerned with our hearts and whether we love his son, Jesus Christ, who died for us. I believe Pastor Hagee loves Jesus.

I spent a lot of time listening to ACN when I was traveling for work, and I believed he helped my walk and he also gave me a lot of good laughs.

Thirst
Nov 30th 2007, 10:57 AM
Forgive me if this has already been posted.

But, check it out and then see what you think of him.

HERE (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X0K1GEs2gAI&eurl=http://infowars.net/articles/november2007/081107Shills.htm)

He is denying that Christ was/is the Messiah. See and hear for yourself.

That is scary. It surprises me because I have heard him say otherwise.

Anyway... If he truly feels that way, he needs prayer.

St_Michael
Nov 30th 2007, 01:17 PM
First this:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/


Then This more specifically:


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/200-john-hagee

Make sure to read all the pages.


Then why I say this is a "cult" :


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf

and an excellent profile / overview here:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

the rookie
Dec 4th 2007, 03:44 PM
First this:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/


Then This more specifically:


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/200-john-hagee

Make sure to read all the pages.


Then why I say this is a "cult" :


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w00.html#wordf

and an excellent profile / overview here:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

I appreciate the links, but by this definition, the Vineyard movement and anyone who sets women into ministry are part of a "cult".

That's just silly.

Libre
Dec 4th 2007, 06:05 PM
Some of the so-called apologetics sites don't like anyone, including Billy Graham. We have to not throw out the baby with the bath when it comes to doctrine. The only truly false doctrine changes the gospel in some way. Check out what the apostles' doctrines truly were. Who ministers, what they believe about the end of days, how they baptize, are all teachings not affecting the gospel. These things are why we disagree and have factions. But one faction is never right over all others. They form the body of Christ and each has a purpose. But we don't cut off an arm because we think it looks funny.

As for Hagee, I personally think he's gone 'round the bend on this. Over the hedge. And what he is saying now needs to be countered.

Libre

WindowShopping
Dec 5th 2007, 12:19 PM
I appreciate the links, but by this definition, the Vineyard movement and anyone who sets women into ministry are part of a "cult".

That's just silly.

Really? Then how do you explain this:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/350-women-in-christian-ministry

jewel4Christ
Dec 6th 2007, 09:52 PM
Some of the so-called apologetics sites don't like anyone, including Billy Graham. We have to not throw out the baby with the bath when it comes to doctrine. The only truly false doctrine changes the gospel in some way. Check out what the apostles' doctrines truly were. Who ministers, what they believe about the end of days, how they baptize, are all teachings not affecting the gospel. These things are why we disagree and have factions. But one faction is never right over all others. They form the body of Christ and each has a purpose. But we don't cut off an arm because we think it looks funny.

As for Hagee, I personally think he's gone 'round the bend on this. Over the hedge. And what he is saying now needs to be countered.

Libre

Gotta agree with this, Libre.

It is one thing to link all teachers that we disagree with as a "false prophet", and it is quite another to not be able to discern when the very gospel message is being attacked.

We need to be wise as serpents, and gentle as doves, in all things.

I do not judge Mr. Hagee's salvation, but, I certainly have a god given right to proclaim that his teachings our borderline, AGAINST the truth, concerning the main message of God...(gospel)

It is not about judging the person, but looking at what is being put out as "truth", and then coming to understand that we do have to rightly judge whether it is biblically sound or not.

2 tim 2:4 1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


tidus 1: 10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.


peaceandlove,

janet