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AliveinChristDave
Nov 6th 2007, 02:12 PM
I hope I have the links right.
Post Dispatch has been after Meyers for several years.


Joyce Meyer Ministries is a target of GOP senator's probe

By Deirdre Shesgreen
POST-DISPATCH WASHINGTON BUREAU
11/06/2007


WASHINGTON — The top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee has launched a wide-ranging investigation into the financial dealings of six TV evangelists, including Joyce Meyer, the popular preacher who has built a $124-million-a-year empire headquartered in Fenton.

On Monday, Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, asked Meyer to provide his staff with documents detailing the finances of the Joyce Meyer Ministries, including the religious group's compensation to Meyer, her husband and other family members, as well as an accounting of their housing allowances, gifts and credit card statements for the last several years.

You can read the rest of the story here--
STLtoday - News - Nation (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/nation/story/9414456BE68D8F628625738B0018DE2E?OpenDocument)


For a 2003 Post Dispatch series of articles about the JMM, read here---
STLtoday - News - Special Reports (http://www.stltoday.com/joycemeyer)

karenoka27
Nov 6th 2007, 02:18 PM
If they find anything we must always remember that none of us gets away with anything before our God.

Numbers 32:23-"ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out."

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 02:24 PM
I tried getting into her a few years ago. I even bought some of her books, which I have since given to my Mom, at my old church. I just realized one day while watching her that there was something off. I hate to get back into the monetary debate, but I just do not trust anyone who makes a living off selling the word of God. There is absolutely no reason why evangelists need to live like "Hollywood Royalty." I simply cannot trust someone who says I will teach you the tools to get into the kingdom of heaven for a nominal fee.

Quickened
Nov 6th 2007, 02:37 PM
I wonder who the other five are that are being probed

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 02:45 PM
Wait, this part is really disturbing:

In his five-page letter, Grassley also asked Meyer for: http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/800/1129/0/oascentral-s.realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/default/empty.gif (http://oas-central.realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.stltoday.com/news/nation/790559600/Frame1/default/empty.gif/34636234333966643437323934323630?)

— A "detailed accounting" of all her and her husband's expense-account items, including clothing and cosmetic surgery.

— Information about any overseas bank accounts and deposits made outside the U.S. after international evangelical crusades.

— The tax-exempt purpose of items purchased for her ministry's headquarters, such as a $23,000 marble-topped commode, a $30,000 conference table and an $11,219 French clock.

— A detailed accounting of total monthly expenses for upkeep on the Meyers' personal residence, and any vacation homes, from 2004 to the present.

— An explanation of any personal use of the ministries' tax-exempt assets, including "jets, employees, facilities," from 2004 to the present.

— An explanation for how personal gifts from donors, such as money or jewelry, are handled and reported to the IRS.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 03:09 PM
I tried getting into her a few years ago. I even bought some of her books, which I have since given to my Mom, at my old church. I just realized one day while watching her that there was something off. I hate to get back into the monetary debate, but I just do not trust anyone who makes a living off selling the word of God. There is absolutely no reason why evangelists need to live like "Hollywood Royalty." I simply cannot trust someone who says I will teach you the tools to get into the kingdom of heaven for a nominal fee.


This causes some kind of.......alarm bell in me too.
The reason is because I see what He has done with my own heart.
I used to think about how great it would be to be able to afford a vacation home and a nicer, newer car, etc.
I work for extremely wealthy people and before, I used to spend my workdays gasping at their homes and wishing for one just like it. I wanted the heated bathroom floors and a pool with a waterfall and a dressing room as big as most peoples entire 1st floor.
Now, my first thought is: Oh! Imagine how many people could be helped with this kind of money!
Strangely, the result of my thinking in my heart being changed regarding money was.......... He gave me MORE!
But I no longer want all those bizarre things. I can't even imagine why I thought I did!

Also though, I think about how much money it takes these "preachers" to air their show (tv time ain't cheap). If it costs you more than a million dollars a day to keep going, something isn't adding up to my mind.

They have wealth that Jesus HIMSELF didn't have while spreading the gospel. And more honor and prestige and fawning followers than HE did.
If just one of them got on air wearing a kmart dress or payless shoes or a Sears suit, if just one of them pulled up to the studio for taping in a Geo car, I would be much more inclined to listen to their advice. Not because anybody doesn't deserve nice things, but because I have no way to gauge things like this but by comparing what He has done to my heart and by comparing the things He would never allow ME to spend money on for myself.

And no, I don't think He tells each and every one of us to do the same exact things, but His opinions on money and His dire warnings on what it can do to us, I believe these are for ALL of us.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 03:47 PM
Good points! I know the cost of air time on secular channels is high, but I am not sure that it effects the people on the privately owned Christian networks. I might be talking out of turn, but I used to be a communications major and the cost of air time on secular channels depends greatly on the time of day and the demographic. I assume (I know what happens when you assume) that it is a bit different on the Christian channels.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 04:13 PM
That is nice to know.
I listen to one of the tv preachers who doesnt dress flashy or try to entertain anyone with music productions. He just sits there in a chair in jeans and a cheap shirt and he really, really makes me think when he talks!

Matthew 12:21
Nov 6th 2007, 04:41 PM
— The tax-exempt purpose of items purchased for her ministry's headquarters, such as a $23,000 marble-topped commode, a $30,000 conference table and an $11,219 French clock.

Let's be fair...doesn't everyone have a 23,000 dollar toilet?

Duane Morse
Nov 6th 2007, 04:57 PM
That is nice to know.
I listen to one of the tv preachers who doesnt dress flashy or try to entertain anyone with music productions. He just sits there in a chair in jeans and a cheap shirt and he really, really makes me think when he talks!
Sounds like Gene Scott.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:02 PM
No!! I DON'T!!!
And come to think of it, my cheap, plastic toilet seat has been half broke and sliding around a bit for the last year or so! lol

Another thought occurs to me. It warmed my heart a bit after visiting the links the original poster gave, to see that while the others all received yearly salaries of 500,000 - 1 million a year, that Billy Graham receives 197,000 per year.

How could such steep salaries be justified when most of the people who probably contribute make a tenth of that or less per year? They had their hearts touched and wanted to help others, not buy the preacher a lexus or a marble toilet seat.

I don't want to judge. Is that what I am doing? Or is this a healthy anger that the money christians send is spent so grossly used?

Steve M
Nov 6th 2007, 05:03 PM
Let's be fair...doesn't everyone have a 23,000 dollar toilet?
Life just isn't worth living without flushing money away, you know...

(ack! The pun police!)

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:04 PM
Sounds like Gene Scott.

I've never heard of Gene Scott but I'm gonna' try to find him now!

I was talking about a fellow named Andrew Wommack.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:06 PM
Life just isn't worth living without flushing money away, you know...

(ack! The pun police!)

Your lucky I don't have any rotten eggs in my hand to throw! That was a real groaner! HEEHEEE

diffangle
Nov 6th 2007, 05:13 PM
Life just isn't worth living without flushing money away, you know...

(ack! The pun police!)
Or putting your money where your mouth is... oh wait, nevermind... :lol:

Quickened
Nov 6th 2007, 05:16 PM
I don't want to judge. Is that what I am doing? Or is this a healthy anger that the money christians send is spent so grossly used?

I would gather to say that most people use the "judge not" thing out of context. There is such a thing as holding a brother or sister accountable for their actions. :idea:

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 05:22 PM
I hope she's innocent. But if not, well she won't be the first Godly person to have been found with sin.

My first reaction is, she's innocent. But we will probably know soon enough.

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 05:23 PM
I hope she's innocent. But if not, well she won't be the first godly person to have been found with sin.

My first reaction is, she's innocent. But we will probably know soon enough.

Same here. She is very highly respected within my circle of friends.

karenoka27
Nov 6th 2007, 05:24 PM
I would gather to say that most people use the "judge not" thing out of context. There is such a thing as holding a brother or sister accountable for their actions. :idea:
That is why I posted the verse, be sure your sin will find you out.
On another note we are to always be aware of false leaders...wolves in sheep's clothing. I think sometimes a judgment call is in order.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 05:25 PM
If I am going to err, I am going to err on the side of mercy.

karenoka27
Nov 6th 2007, 05:36 PM
I understand mercy and grace, but what about wolves in sheeps clothing...and to be alert for false teachers? They are out there..are we going to simply show mercy to all of them.

When people give their tithes and offerings they give it to the Lord...what those who receive that money do with it, they are held accountable to God. Reminds me of Eli's sons Hophni and Phinehas, who took more than their fair share of the sacrifices that were offered...God was not happy with them!
1 Samuel 2:17-"Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD:"

They were killed..and God told Eli that his house was at an end because of it.
Yet isn't our God merciful?

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:40 PM
eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!:eek:

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 05:42 PM
I understand mercy and grace, but what about wolves in sheeps clothing...and to be alert for false teachers? They are out there..are we going to simply show mercy to all of them.

When people give their tithes and offerings they give it to the Lord...what those who receive that money do with it, they are held accountable to God. Reminds me of Eli's sons Hophni and Phinehas, who took more than their fair share of the sacrifices that were offered...God was not happy with them!
1 Samuel 2:17-"Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD:"

They were killed..and God told Eli that his house was at an end because of it.
Yet isn't our God merciful?

What has she taught that shows her to be a wolf in sheeps clothing?

If we are to err, let us err on the side of mercy. Now, once all the facts are in, then we can act without error. And I think there is a lot more to the story of Eli's sons that just the tithe. It was also about the sacrifices and them sleeping with the women on the steps. At best, Joyce is being investigated. Not the first time a government has investigated someone innocent or guilty.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:43 PM
Or putting your money where your mouth is... oh wait, nevermind... :lol:

Sorry, this was what my eeewww! was directed at but there was an entire second page of posts I didn't know about.

awestruckchild
Nov 6th 2007, 05:46 PM
I guess I should not judge it a mistake if she wants a lexus and a rolls royce. Maybe He wants her to have them, as some say.
Even a nice toyota would make me feel more comfortable listening to her though.

always
Nov 6th 2007, 05:53 PM
Lord I pray, that this attack on this sister in Christ, delivering the gospel, proves to be just that an attack, in your word you said that no weapon formed against us shall prosper.

I pray for the attacker, the gossipers, and those filled with envy delighting in this trial for her.

place in them a new heart, a new mind that is in Christ Jesus, put into their mouths a good report, or a mind to keep silent!

Let their be an understanding that this attack is not only on her but the entire body of Christ, give us a mind to stand together, and if needed restore our sister in love.

Amen

karenoka27
Nov 6th 2007, 05:56 PM
What has she taught that shows her to be a wolf in sheeps clothing?

If we are to err, let us err on the side of mercy. Now, once all the facts are in, then we can act without error. And I think there is a lot more to the story of Eli's sons that just the tithe. It was also about the sacrifices and them sleeping with the women on the steps. At best, Joyce is being investigated. Not the first time a government has investigated someone innocent or guilty.
1 Samuel 2:12-"Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.13And the priest's custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand;14And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither.15Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.16And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force.17Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred the offering of the LORD.


From her book "What Should You Believe?"

“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, underlining in the original).

“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” (ibid.).

“Jesus went to hell for you” (pg. 38, underlining in the original).



Joyce teaches that Jesus went there to pay for our sins.



Before you defend her, I know about Ephesians 4:8-9; 1 Peter 3:18. But Christ, however, had already paid for our sins on the cross, not in hell.


I pray for truth to come out and if she is not of God, I pray that the people who have been following her will find truth and follow after it and bring their offerings to someone who will fear how they use them before our God.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 06:17 PM
1 Samuel 2:12-"Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.13And the priest's custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand;14And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither.15Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.16And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force.17Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred the offering of the LORD.


From her book "What Should You Believe?"

“During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there ... no plan was too extreme ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell” (pg. 35, underlining in the original).
“There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell” (ibid.).

“Jesus went to hell for you” (pg. 38, underlining in the original).



Joyce teaches that Jesus went there to pay for our sins.



Before you defend her, I know about Ephesians 4:8-9; 1 Peter 3:18. But Christ, however, had already paid for our sins on the cross, not in hell.


I pray for truth to come out and if she is not of God, I pray that the people who have been following her will find truth and follow after it and bring their offerings to someone who will fear how they use them before our God.



But the offering is not the tithe. ;) No need to go into all that unless you want to.

As for JM, wrong teaching does not make a false prophet. Joyce has brought God's healing power to many a soul. Does she have bad teaching? Of course.

If I found one area in your teaching that was incorrect, would that make you not of God? No! We all grow in grace and in truth.

always
Nov 6th 2007, 06:25 PM
If I found one area in your teaching that was incorrect, would that make you not of God? No! We all grow in grace and in truth.

Excellent, why are we are own worst enemy

karenoka27
Nov 6th 2007, 06:32 PM
I respectfully disagree and will step out so as we don't come to a place of arguing.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 07:30 PM
It just bothers me that this seems to constantly happen with these evangelists. If it is an attack against her, then I feel for her, but that laundry list is pretty detailed. Jesus said no one can serve God and money. If that list turns out to be true than people should not follow her because she has proven to be a servant of the almighty dollar. This is just another example that you should put your faith in the Bible and NOT the people who eloquently adopt it's message.

skc53
Nov 6th 2007, 07:31 PM
I like Joyce Meyer, and I've went to see her in person. I don't think it's anyone's business what she spends her money on. She worked for it, she can spend it on anything she wants to. I don't think we would like it much if we made a lot of money and was put under a microscope as to what we spend our money on. That is no ones business except hers and her family. As long as she pays her employees and pays her taxes, it's no ones business.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 07:36 PM
I like Joyce Meyer, and I've went to see her in person. I don't think it's anyone's business what she spends her money on. She worked for it, she can spend it on anything she wants to. I don't think we would like it much if we made a lot of money and was put under a microscope as to what we spend our money on. That is no ones business except hers and her family. As long as she pays her employees and pays her taxes, it's no ones business.

The whole point is that it is NOT her money that she is spending. It sounds like she was turned in by people who questioned where their offerings were going to.

Can I ask how old you are? You seem very youthful in your posts.

skc53
Nov 6th 2007, 07:49 PM
The whole point is that it is NOT her money that she is spending. Oh really, does anyone know this to be a true fact or is this just an assumption?:hmm: I'll will wait until the investigation has been completed before I try to guess what happened.

It sounds like she was turned in by people who questioned where their offerings were going to. Here again, we don't know that is the reason.:o

Can I ask how old you are? Say what? You're joking! You seem very youthful in your posts. Is this meant to be a compliment?;):bounce::)

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 07:52 PM
Well I am basing my assumption on the info posted in that article.

You just seem young. Not a bad thing. :hug:

Lyndie
Nov 6th 2007, 07:54 PM
First off, I wonder where and what our tax dollars are going to support this Senator? They live "extravagant' off our taxes. Also, this isn't the first time this has happened to her. And if you'd like you can go right to her website and she has a link to her financial records, for all to see. I get a report every year as I give to her ministry often.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it agagin, if you freak out over preachers and how much money they have or spend or freak out when someone says 'prosperity'-maybe its you with the problem and not the minister. Money can become a god when we are constantly arguing about who should have it and who shouldn't.

skc53
Nov 6th 2007, 07:56 PM
Well I am basing my assumption on the info posted in that article.

You just seem young. Not a bad thing. :hug:Thank you, but I'm not that young. I'll just say that I'm in my 50's.:pp;):D As the old saying goes, you're as young as you feel, right?;)hehe. God Bless!

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 08:02 PM
First off, I wonder where and what our tax dollars are going to support this Senator? They live "extravagant' off our taxes.

That is a problem that also needs to be addressed.


Also, this isn't the first time this has happened to her. And if you'd like you can go right to her website and she has a link to her financial records, for all to see.

That was mentioned in the article. If she is innocent there is nothing for you to worry about, however if it does come out that she is spending money that is meant to go towards ministry on plastic surgery and other fleshy things I hope you reconsider giving your funds to her ministry. Find a local ministry that can benefit from your generosity.


Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you freak out over preachers and how much money they have or spend or freak out when someone says 'prosperity'-maybe its you with the problem and not the minister. Money can become a god when we are constantly arguing about who should have it and who shouldn't.

Not at all, I have a problem with ANYONE who takes more than they need in order to feed their fleshy desires all the while masquerading as a servant of God. Show me in the Bible where Jesus told his disciples it is OK to get rhinoplasty if they do not like their features ;)

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 08:04 PM
First off, I wonder where and what our tax dollars are going to support this Senator? They live "extravagant' off our taxes. Also, this isn't the first time this has happened to her. And if you'd like you can go right to her website and she has a link to her financial records, for all to see. I get a report every year as I give to her ministry often.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it agagin, if you freak out over preachers and how much money they have or spend or freak out when someone says 'prosperity'-maybe its you with the problem and not the minister. Money can become a god when we are constantly arguing about who should have it and who shouldn't.

Apparently the ministry has also received a letter from the IRS in Oct, 2007 saying they were still qualified as a tax free organization.

We should be very careful when condemning other folks. We might have problems with their teaching, and doctrine is fair game. But, when we lift a hand against someone that may be God's anointed, we better be very careful. Or even another believer. We should always keep in mind what is best for that person.

Lyndie
Nov 6th 2007, 08:06 PM
So she isn't allowed to use any money she earns for herself? She gets money from her books, which she earns, and she can't use it for whatever? That's like saying I can't go by a pair of pants with my paycheck. Should all our church Pastors give out thier checks and have nothing for themselves?

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 08:08 PM
So she isn't allowed to use any money she earns for herself? She gets money from her books, which she earns, and she can't use it for whatever? That's like saying I can't go by a pair of pants with my paycheck. Should all our church Pastors give out thier checks and have nothing for themselves?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that she should not take more than she is entitled to and that is what it sounds like. She should not abuse her position and that also sounds like what she is being accused of.

Lyndie
Nov 6th 2007, 08:10 PM
Who are you or I to say what she's entitled to? Or what anyone is entitled to? people in Africa prob don't think I'm 'entitled' to own a computer because its a luxury, but I do own. Should I not have one because they don't think its right?

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 08:14 PM
Who are you or I to say what she's entitled to? Or what anyone is entitled to? people in Africa prob don't think I'm 'entitled' to own a computer because its a luxury, but I do own. Should I not have one because they don't think its right?

I am not here to engage in arguments with people. I respect your opinion, please respect mine.

Edited to add: I am nipping this in the bud because there is no reason for us to argue. You are taking this off on a tangent. I do not want to appear that I am judging Joyce nor you.

cheech
Nov 6th 2007, 08:15 PM
Lets remember to allow God to be the judge of whether she is right or wrong, not us. Humans judge by outward appearance and situations, while God judges the heart:

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance...

Jeremiah 11:20
But, O LORD Almighty, you who judge righteously and test the heart and mind...

Although I do not agree with spending all that money on material things, if her organization has used the monies received legitimately and everything else is from their own pay then this will be proven. God shines the light on the truth and he will in this situation as he has in many others. I just read the following verses today and meditated on them:

Psalm 101
1 I will sing of your love and justice;
to you, O LORD, I will sing praise.

2 I will be careful to lead a blameless life—
when will you come to me?
I will walk in my house with blameless heart.

3 I will set before my eyes no vile thing.
The deeds of faithless men I hate;
they will not cling to me.

4 Men of perverse heart shall be far from me;
I will have nothing to do with evil.

5 Whoever slanders his neighbor in secret,
him will I put to silence;
whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart,
him will I not endure.

6 My eyes will be on the faithful in the land,
that they may dwell with me;
he whose walk is blameless
will minister to me.

7 No one who practices deceit
will dwell in my house;
no one who speaks falsely
will stand in my presence.

8 Every morning I will put to silence
all the wicked in the land;
I will cut off every evildoer
from the city of the LORD.


Ephesians 5:15-17
15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

God knows the truth of the situation...the truth will be revealed. Innocent until proven guilty...something good to remember.

Lyndie
Nov 6th 2007, 08:20 PM
I am not here to engage in arguments with people. I respect your opinion, please respect mine.

I'm not trying to argue with you, if you feel that way I apologize. This is something I feel strongly about, and if my posts offend you in some way, again I'm sorry. I just don't feel I have the right to question someone's income. I know I haven't always been good with mine. :rolleyes:

always
Nov 6th 2007, 08:38 PM
It just bothers me that this seems to constantly happen with these evangelists. If it is an attack against her, then I feel for her, but that laundry list is pretty detailed. Jesus said no one can serve God and money. If that list turns out to be true than people should not follow her because she has proven to be a servant of the almighty dollar. This is just another example that you should put your faith in the Bible and NOT the people who eloquently adopt it's message.


They followed Moses, through the Red Sea, God opened for him, He was a murderer????

always
Nov 6th 2007, 08:40 PM
First off, I wonder where and what our tax dollars are going to support this Senator? They live "extravagant' off our taxes. Also, this isn't the first time this has happened to her. And if you'd like you can go right to her website and she has a link to her financial records, for all to see. I get a report every year as I give to her ministry often.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it agagin, if you freak out over preachers and how much money they have or spend or freak out when someone says 'prosperity'-maybe its you with the problem and not the minister. Money can become a god when we are constantly arguing about who should have it and who shouldn't.


Excellent post Lyndie, I tried to rep you but couldn't

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 08:43 PM
They followed Moses, through the Red Sea, God opened for him, He was a murderer????

I am not sure how that is even relevant to the current conversation.

Edit: I think I see your point. The poor sentence structure and the multitude of question marks threw me off. Essentially what you are trying to say is that people still followed Moses after he murdered the Egyptian, right?

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 08:45 PM
First off, I wonder where and what our tax dollars are going to support this Senator? They live "extravagant' off our taxes. Also, this isn't the first time this has happened to her. And if you'd like you can go right to her website and she has a link to her financial records, for all to see. I get a report every year as I give to her ministry often.
Also, I've said it before and I'll say it agagin, if you freak out over preachers and how much money they have or spend or freak out when someone says 'prosperity'-maybe its you with the problem and not the minister. Money can become a god when we are constantly arguing about who should have it and who shouldn't.

I can't rep you yet either but very good post!

always
Nov 6th 2007, 08:53 PM
I am not sure how that is even relevant to the current conversation.

Not being facetious, I was trying to point out, God has used people who have made mistakes to do his will

Not to say that JM made a mistake, I don't know and at this time choose to believe not the worst, but we can't say who and what is not of God unless of course they are denying Jesus.

We are to follow those that follow Christ, it is our responsibility to read the word for ourselves, so as not to be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

If we go to hell it should not be because we were led there

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 08:59 PM
Not being facetious, I was trying to point out, God has used people who have made mistakes to do his will

Not to say that JM made a mistake, I don't know and at this time choose to believe not the worst, but we can't say who and what is not of God unless of course they are denying Jesus.

We are to follow those that follow Christ, it is our responsibility to read the word for ourselves, so as not to be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

If we go to hell it should not be because we were led there

And if she did in fact make a mistake she will be forgiven once she repents and asks forgivness.

Of course it's human frailty that keeps us from forgiving as He does even though He has commanded us to.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:01 PM
If we go to hell it should not be because we were led there

I'm not even talking about going to hell, I am talking about not giving money to someone IF it is proven that they have abused their position. I do not understand why people feel compelled to give these evangelists money anyway. I would rather give to my local missions. I do not mean to pick on those that do, I just do not understand it.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:04 PM
And if she did in fact make a mistake she will be forgiven once she repents and asks forgivness.

Of course it's human frailty that keeps us from forgiving as He does even though He has commanded us to.

You can forgive, but that does not mean you forget. I can forgive a person for hurting me, but I will never forget it. I have forgiven people for atrocities that have been committed against me that are far worse than what she is being accused of, however that does not mean I will put myself in the position to have them hurt me again.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:04 PM
I do not understand why people feel compelled to give these evangelists money anyway. I would rather give to my local missions. I do not mean to pick on those that do, I just do not understand it.

Perhaps some are led of the Lord to give to a particular the ministry. How are we to know?

always
Nov 6th 2007, 09:07 PM
I'm not even talking about going to hell, I am talking about not giving money to someone IF it is proven that they have abused their position. I do not understand why people feel compelled to give these evangelists money anyway. I would rather give to my local missions. I do not mean to pick on those that do, I just do not understand it.


do you give to United Way? do you know all the organizations that it sponsors
do you invest in stocks
do you give that $1 on your taxes to politics

do you buy girl scout cookies

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:07 PM
Perhaps some are led of the Lord to give to a particular the ministry. How are we to know?

This goes back to what we were discussing in the Passion thread. Are people giving to these people because they have an emotional reaction to what they are watching or because they have really prayed about it long and hard and they think that is what God wants them to do. I am truly fascinated by this. I know that there are days when I watched Meyer and I felt compelled by the images she put on the screen to send money, but then I would always say to myself "I better pray about it first" and I always decided against it.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:08 PM
do you give to United Way? do you know all the organizations that it sponsors
do you invest in stocks
do you give that $1 on your taxes to politics

do you buy girl scout cookies

No to all, I try to research and pray before I give to anything.

always
Nov 6th 2007, 09:11 PM
No to all, I try to research and pray before I give to anything.

well brother, you've said you prayed and wasn't led, that is all you have to do.

others pray and or led, ain't it good, God is so personal with us

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:12 PM
This goes back to what we were discussing in the Passion thread. Are people giving to these people because they have an emotional reaction to what they are watching or because they have really prayed about it long and hard and they think that is what God wants them to do. I am truly fascinated by this. I know that there are days when I watched Meyer and I felt compelled by the images she put on the screen to send money, but then I would always say to myself "I better pray about it first" and I always decided against it.

As I said, we can't really know what's in another's heart about why they gave. Perhaps the Lord told them to give. He didn't tell you to do it and that is good! He doesn't have everyone support the same things financially. But who am I to question where another chooses to give? We don't know if their motivation is spiritual or emotional. But I will believe it to be spiritual until proven otherwise. I like giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 09:12 PM
You can forgive, but that does not mean you forget. I can forgive a person for hurting me, but I will never forget it. I have forgiven people for atrocities that have been committed against me that are far worse than what she is being accused of, however that does not mean I will put myself in the position to have them hurt me again.

Then do not give to her Ministry. She then will not be able to misuse any funds you have given.

I am not saying she did anything wrong, I am saying if one has been hurt by her this may be the best way to handle it.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:16 PM
I think you guys are missing my point, I was asking some of the people in the thread who said they have given to her what made them do so. ;)

I have already stated that I do not give to her or any TV evangelist nor do I ever plan to.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:17 PM
I think you guys are missing my point, I was asking some of the people in the thread who said they have given to her what made them do so. ;)

I have already stated that I do not give to her or any TV evangelist nor do I ever plan to.

Yep. I would say that clears things up. I appreciate the clarification. :saint:

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:19 PM
Ha - It is OK. Sometimes I have a hard time reading some of these threads :)

DaniB
Nov 6th 2007, 09:39 PM
Well I've bought a couple of books from her, and that's it. Why did I do that? Hm because the books looked good lol.

Do I care where she spends her money? Not in the least. She's not accountable to me, only the law and of course God.

I ahve no problem w/tv evangelists having money. I DO have a problem w/them coming on tv, and begging for money! I think of one off the top of my head, Benny Hinn. He uses half of his show to ask for money. And he spends more money than Joyce Meyer!

I'm trying to show grace and mercy to all these tv ecangelists who have come under fire lately. I'd like to think they are innocent. But Jim baker, and Jimmy Swaggert made sure everyone in the future would be leary, and suspicious of tv evangelists.

Matthew
Nov 6th 2007, 09:46 PM
So she isn't allowed to use any money she earns for herself? She gets money from her books, which she earns, and she can't use it for whatever? That's like saying I can't go by a pair of pants with my paycheck. Should all our church Pastors give out thier checks and have nothing for themselves?

That's exactly the point. This is NOT her money and she CANNOT use it for whatever she wants. Her ministry does not pay taxes on the money that is coming in because it supposed to be used for religious purposes. When you get your paycheck your taxes are already taken out.

So, if this money is not being taxed then it needs to be used for religious/charitable purposes. That means if you purchase a private jet with ministry funds then you use the private jet for your ministry, not for whatever you please.

The info contained in the article is disturbing, but we shouldn't automatically condemn her or the investigation. We should just let the investigation run its course and see what happens.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:46 PM
Off subject but since he was brought up... anyone keep up with Jim Baker these days? I think the guy got saved in prison.

OK, back on topic...

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 09:48 PM
Benny Hinn freaks me out. My creep-o-matic meter goes bazonkers when I see him on.

I do not care what these people spend their pay on, I care if they take gifts and pledges that are meant to go toward ministry and squander it on material possessions. I do think that some of them have excessive pay rates. I know that if I were in the same position I would not feel comfortable accepting a sizable salary.

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 09:50 PM
I may not agree with certain Ministers. I am not convinced of certain Ministers. I do not bad mouth them either.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:51 PM
I do not care what these people spend their pay on, I care if they take gifts and pledges that are meant to go toward ministry and squander it on material possessions. I do think that some of them have excessive pay rates. I know that if I were in the same position I would not feel comfortable accepting a sizable salary.

But who sets that limit? That's up to each individual. Each ministry probably has a board that oversees salary.

Personally, I think every minister of the gospel is underpaid.

DaniB
Nov 6th 2007, 09:52 PM
Off subject but since he was brought up... anyone keep up with Jim Baker these days? I think the guy got saved in prison.

OK, back on topic...

Well PTL if that's true. Oh wait, or did he re-dedicate his life?

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 09:55 PM
Well PTL if that's true. Oh wait, or did he re-dedicate his life?

He's got a book out on it. He and his son have some awesome ministries going on now. He works with the homeless.

Seeker of truth
Nov 6th 2007, 09:58 PM
He's got a book out on it. He and his son have some awesome ministries going on now. He works with the homeless.

Praise the Lord! :pp My heart went out to him when he went to prison. Even though he did wrong he did preach His Word and I'm sure he helped to bring many to Him.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 10:17 PM
But who sets that limit? That's up to each individual. Each ministry probably has a board that oversees salary.

Personally, I think every minister of the gospel is underpaid.

I'm not sure, but I think a lot of them live excessively by my standards. There is a difference between having enough and living excessively. Of course this is my opinion.

Brother Mark
Nov 6th 2007, 10:24 PM
I'm not sure, but I think a lot of them live excessively by my standards. There is a difference between having enough and living excessively. Of course this is my opinion.

Exactly. We have to be careful deciding what the Lord considers sinful or wrong in another believers life. Just as David didn't wear Saul's armor, we shouldn't expect another believer to walk in our light.

I<3Jesus
Nov 6th 2007, 10:31 PM
I wasn't speaking for the Lord, I was speaking for myself. I am not comfortable with it.

Big T
Nov 7th 2007, 12:22 AM
Let's all take a deep breath and relax. Think twice before you post, then think again.

If you have things against her, please be sure to be able to back them up with articles and/or scripture.

watchinginawe
Nov 7th 2007, 12:24 AM
I don't know if it is already mentioned, but the list of thosed asked to report are:

Creflo Dollar
Eddie Long
Paula White
Benny Hinn
Joyce Meyer
Kenneth Copeland

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/11/06/preachers_1106.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the process.

God Bless!

always
Nov 7th 2007, 01:14 AM
I don't know if it is already mentioned, but the list of thosed asked to report are:

Creflo Dollar
Eddie Long
Paula White
Benny Hinn
Joyce Meyer
Kenneth Copeland

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/11/06/preachers_1106.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the process.

God Bless!


Well I guess I'll bring it up, look at that list, it's a ministry that is being attack.

The root of all evil is the LOVE of money, but a lover of money is not a person who spends it, the frugal to the extreme person is the lover of money, they thrill in seeing their bank accounts grow, they don't depart from their money, they have love affair with it, and will steal, kill and destroy to keep it.

we are to be wise stewards over money, but not lovers, we can spend money to enjoy life, one may want to spend money for a hammock and swing in the backyard, the other may want a Carribean cruise, when that individual works for his money he can reap the rewards of it, how they see fit.

Whenever one ministers prosperity, we have those individuals saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, baptise in water, that loooooooooose their minds in Christ Jesus.

His word says that he "maketh us to lie down in green pastures" green pastures represent prosperity, now whatever quality of pasture you are in is left up to you, some only want monkey grass pastures, some want Alburquerque, Bermuda, Rye and Zosia.

As long as you are not a tare!!!

do not marvel that these ministers are always scrutinize like this, the world just can't believe that doing that which is in the will of God can prosper someone, especially when some of the body of Christ don't believe it either

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 01:50 AM
Let's all take a deep breath and relax. Think twice before you post, then think again.

If you have things against her, please be sure to be able to back them up with articles and/or scripture.

I think you are assuming that some of us are upset. I can only speak for myself, but I am not. Last time I checked an opinion is not something that has to be fact checked or proven. If that were the case then no one would ever offer theirs - LOL. ;)

Edited to add: I am not trying to be bratty. I just think there are several people who tend to selectively read. Either that or I just do not make my point clear ;)

Matthew
Nov 7th 2007, 02:25 AM
Well I guess I'll bring it up, look at that list, it's a ministry that is being attack.

The root of all evil is the LOVE of money, but a lover of money is not a person who spends it, the frugal to the extreme person is the lover of money, they thrill in seeing their bank accounts grow, they don't depart from their money, they have love affair with it, and will steal, kill and destroy to keep it.

we are to be wise stewards over money, but not lovers, we can spend money to enjoy life, one may want to spend money for a hammock and swing in the backyard, the other may want a Carribean cruise, when that individual works for his money he can reap the rewards of it, how they see fit.

Whenever one ministers prosperity, we have those individuals saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, baptise in water, that loooooooooose their minds in Christ Jesus.

His word says that he "maketh us to lie down in green pastures" green pastures represent prosperity, now whatever quality of pasture you are in is left up to you, some only want monkey grass pastures, some want Alburquerque, Bermuda, Rye and Zosia.

As long as you are not a tare!!!

do not marvel that these ministers are always scrutinize like this, the world just can't believe that doing that which is in the will of God can prosper someone, especially when some of the body of Christ don't believe it either

The concern is that these people are improperly using the money from their ministry for their own personal use. Of course they need something to live off of, but we're not talking about groceries here. Benny Hinn has been known to spend thousands of dollars per night on hotels. That is at best irresponsible and at worst immoral and illegal.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 02:33 AM
The concern is that these people are improperly using the money from their ministry for their own personal use. Of course they need something to live off of, but we're not talking about groceries here. Benny Hinn has been known to spend thousands of dollars per night on hotels. That is at best irresponsible and at worst immoral and illegal.

I think you will find that your comments fall on deaf ears. I doubt that some people even read the article.

Matthew
Nov 7th 2007, 03:14 AM
I think you will find that your comments fall on deaf ears. I doubt that some people even read the article.

:D It's never stopped me before.

always
Nov 7th 2007, 03:18 AM
The concern is that these people are improperly using the money from their ministry for their own personal use. Of course they need something to live off of, but we're not talking about groceries here. Benny Hinn has been known to spend thousands of dollars per night on hotels. That is at best irresponsible and at worst immoral and illegal.


do YOU know it, if not you speaking(typing) is false witnessing


I think you will find that your comments fall on deaf ears. I doubt that some people even read the article.

Not deaf, but if I didn't hear it with my own ears from Joyce Meyer and whomever that would be false witnessing

and since that is one of the things God hates

I will let God handle it

Matthew
Nov 7th 2007, 03:53 AM
do YOU know it, if not you speaking(typing) is false witnessing

I'm not bearing false witness. I'd be bearing false witness if I knew it was false and said it. I think Dateline NBC is a fairly reliable source. Plus, the report includes many other things like his Pacific Ocean home valued at $10 million. That's tough to lie about. This isn't just gossip that is being passed around. It's well-known that Hinn spends a lot of money. It's not a story concocted to slander him. Is there really any doubt that he lives an extravagant lifestyle? Watch the report on this link. He stayed in a suite that cost $10,000 per night. The room had it's own pool.

Link to Dateline NBC story about Benny Hinn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUyPjeIFKug

The other ministers I have not researched enough, but I don't trust Benny Hinn as far as I can throw him.

We all need to question where our money goes. It is 100% undeniable that people have used religion to steal money from people in the past. Other people will come along and try it again and so we need to be on guard. These people give Christianity a bad name. Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Peter Popoff, Ted Haggard, the Catholic priest scandals. We've got to protect our faith and that means that we hold our leaders accountable for misbehavior.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 04:01 AM
Mathew and 1,3jesus-

Don't sweat it. I understand what you are saying and I agree with all you have said.
Sometimes we all just gloss over an opinion we oppose without trying to understand what is being said.
I saw no judgemental spirit in anything either of you said and I could see you were not trying to malign anyone.
I agree you should not have to back up your opinion on something with scripture.
Don't fear-you both had much respect for those who had the intent to debate the right of christians to be worldly and extravagant.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 04:02 AM
:D It's never stopped me before.

I'll be your huckleberry ;)

I love the movie Tombstone! It is so much better than Wyatt Earp.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 04:05 AM
Not deaf, but if I didn't hear it with my own ears from Joyce Meyer and whomever that would be false witnessing

and since that is one of the things God hates

I will let God handle it

Ummm, I do not mean to be rude, but I fear you are not making an sense. At least not to me. Of course Meyer didn't say it, it is a news article. How is writing a news piece based on factual information (the factional info is the that she and the five other people are being investigated and it states what they are being asked to present to the authorities) false witnessing? The person who wrote it is not attacking her, they are reporting news.

Paint Diva - Thanks my dear, you rock!

Diggindeeper
Nov 7th 2007, 05:47 AM
Let's all take a deep breath and relax. Think twice before you post, then think again.

If you have things against her, please be sure to be able to back them up with articles and/or scripture.

Here's a long article. just scroll down to see WHO is on her Board of Directors...and WHERE the ministry headquarters is, and WHO lives at the Headquarters, etc.

Joyce Meyers - Decide for yourself
http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm (http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm)


I just tend to lean in this direction....who better to teach us about finances and "things" we seek to own, than Christ Jesus himself?


Luke 12:15-34
15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?

18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.

23 The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

27 Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Diggindeeper
Nov 7th 2007, 06:18 AM
I don't know if it is already mentioned, but the list of thosed asked to report are:

Creflo Dollar
Eddie Long
Paula White
Benny Hinn
Joyce Meyer
Kenneth Copeland

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/11/06/preachers_1106.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the process.

God Bless!

A Senate investigation should not be too awfully difficult. Reporters have no problem conducting investigations all the time. Here's an example of a current one:

Just Another In A Long Line Of Greedy Televangelists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74VHiVLROM) reported by News 8, YouTube, 11/1/07
This is a video expose on YouTube.

My main concern is that, according to the way I see Biblical teaching, any Christian--ANY Christian--should be above reproach. So, all of the ones under investigation should willingly hand over any proof they can to show those within the church, and without, that they are being upright in their financial dealings.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 11:26 AM
My main concern is that, according to the way I see Biblical teaching, any Christian--ANY Christian--should be above reproach. So, all of the ones under investigation should willingly hand over any proof they can to show those within the church, and without, that they are being upright in their financial dealings.


Should Jesus have been completely open with all his actions with the spiritual leaders of his day?

That's a dangerous precedence Diggin. Being above reproach doesn't mean people won't look for ways to drag you down or call someone a wine bibber or glutton.

Duane Morse
Nov 7th 2007, 11:29 AM
Should Jesus have been completely open with all his actions with the spiritual leaders of his day?

That's a dangerous precedence Diggin. Being above reproach doesn't mean people won't look for ways to drag you down or call someone a wine bibber or glutton.
Can you name a time when He wasn't completely open with all His actions with the spiritual leaders of His day??

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 11:30 AM
As for wealth and extravagant life styles... what does the word say?

1 Tim 6:17-19

17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy . 18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
NASB

The insinuation here is that money is one of the "all things" that God supplies us with to enjoy.

King David and Solomon lived extravagantly. Job had great wealth. All used it to help others and to enjoy. I have no problem with a man or woman of God owning a million dollar home. Is life more than these? Of course! But having money, spending money is not evil. Yet, some here are suggesting that it is wrong and looking with disdain upon how another servant may be handling their talent. We know that is a no-no from scripture.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 11:31 AM
Can you name a time when He wasn't completely open with all His actions with the spiritual leaders of His day??

Answer this question and I will answer yours. Is John the Baptist a prophet from God or not?

Duane Morse
Nov 7th 2007, 11:41 AM
Answer this question and I will answer yours. Is John the Baptist a prophet from God or not?
Stop playing games.

Simply answer the very simple question posed to you.

You made a statement, now back it up!

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 11:47 AM
Stop playing games.

Simply answer the very simple question posed to you.

You made a statement, now back it up!

Sorry Duane. That was a direct quote from Jesus. That was the example when the spiritual "leaders" of his day were investigating them. That was the answer he gave them. I wasn't playing games, just giving you the answer to your question without fully backing it up with scripture. Here's the scripture.

Mark 11:27-33

27 And they came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests, and scribes, and elders came to Him, 28 and began saying to Him, "By what authority are You doing these things, or who gave You this authority to do these things?" 29 And Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what authority I do these things. 30 "Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me." 31 And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say, 'Then why did you not believe him?' 32 "But shall we say, 'From men'?" — they were afraid of the multitude, for all considered John to have been a prophet indeed. 33 And answering Jesus, they said, "We do not know." And Jesus said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
NASB

We need to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. When our authority demands from us (i.e. Gov) we obey. But to go out and simply hand the enemy something to use against us is not something I think is wise.

Duane Morse
Nov 7th 2007, 11:58 AM
OK, fair enough.

Yet, in your post, you said 'open with all His actions' - not, 'open by what authority He acted under'.

His actions were totally open and above, and spoke for themselves, while His authority was what He left in doubt by that scripture.


But, I do not want to derail this wonderful thread that merges so wonderfully the concepts of fact, fiction and gossip.


So, I will leave well enough said, and slowly back away.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 12:18 PM
OK, fair enough.

Yet, in your post, you said 'open with all His actions' - not, 'open by what authority He acted under'.

His actions were totally open and above, and spoke for themselves, while His authority was what He left in doubt by that scripture.


But, I do not want to derail this wonderful thread that merges so wonderfully the concepts of fact, fiction and gossip.


So, I will leave well enough said, and slowly back away.

LOL. I enjoyed reading your response and I know exactly what you mean!
Another example, hopefully, without getting off topic too much, is when God told Samuel to anoint David as King. Samuel was scared of what Saul might do to him if he found out. So God told Samuel to offer a sacrifice and invite Jesse and his boys to it. Then he could anoint the one God pointed out. And if anyone asked Samuel what he was going to do, Samuel was to say "I am going to offer a sacrifice".

In other words, full disclosure is not something that God requires. We should be above reproach, but we shouldn't give the enemy bullets to shoot us with either. A modern day example might be a missionary that goes to China and teaches English while there. If the missionary is questioned about his/her purpose in China, the prudent thing to do would be to do as God commanded Samuel and say "I am here to teach English".

watchinginawe
Nov 7th 2007, 12:22 PM
A Senate investigation should not be too awfully difficult. It is not a Senate investigation. Read the article carefully. This should be an IRS matter, not a Senator's crusade.

It seems that everyone in this thread understands that Joyce, and others, make no secret about their lifestyles. I don't remember anyone here saying "I didn't know that, and I gave her money". Since the story in 2003 she has instituted many "sunlight" provisions in her ministry (as have others) that can let a donor make their decision. So, where is the deception? Give, or don't give. Buy the books, or don't buy the books. But, lets leave one Senator's concerns out of this and let him be about the business of the country.

The standard used to be "if there is smoke, there probably is fire". Now it seems the standard has been moved to "if there is much timber, there probably is fire".

God Bless!

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 02:05 PM
Should Jesus have been completely open with all his actions with the spiritual leaders of his day?
Luk 6:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=6&verse=30&version=kjv#30)Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 02:25 PM
Joyce Meyers - Decide for yourself
http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm (http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm)


Reading that made me sick to my stomach, but thanks for sharing. Anyone who reads that and does NOT question their gross misuse of ministry funds has blinders on.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 02:26 PM
Luk 6:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Luk&chapter=6&verse=30&version=kjv#30)Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again.

Right. But this is concerning giving of money not information.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 02:31 PM
I just realized what these people remind me of. Has anyone seen the movie
"Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin?

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 02:32 PM
Here's a long article. just scroll down to see WHO is on her Board of Directors...and WHERE the ministry headquarters is, and WHO lives at the Headquarters, etc.

Joyce Meyers - Decide for yourself
http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm (http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/falseprophets.htm)


I just tend to lean in this direction....who better to teach us about finances and "things" we seek to own, than Christ Jesus himself?

I read the article and see some problems on both sides! But is your issue with her money? Did God give all the money to Solomon? God himself said he did. I see nothing in the article that says, biblically, that she is a false prophet. Joyce makes some good points, that like Solomon, having valued God, he gave her things she did not ask for. At least that is what I read in it. The article seems to have a problem with her wealth. Now where is that in the word?

Hey, if she broke the law concerning IRS rules, then she needs to pay up.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 02:38 PM
I always get myself nutsy-crazy. I honestly understand what most people mean when they post, even if they and I don't agree on something.
I can see where their thinking logically comes from and I can see where mine logically comes from. Usually, neither I nor they are completely insane.

On this one though, I can't, after having read those articles, seem to wrap my head around how anyone can not at least stop and wonder when the board of directors of a ministry approves for their corporate offices to spend donated money on a $23,000 commode.

Forget for now that the ministry used donated money of over 6 million to buy homes for her and her children and well over $400,000 to supply them all with lexuses. I repeat: donated money.

So for now, just focus on a $23,000 commode with that donated money.Not whether God would approve but only whether the donations came from people who would have gladly given it for that commode.

She makes money, lots and lots, off of the books she writes. This money was not donated and she has every right to spend it as she and God see fit.

Donated money is a much different matter.

I hope to not receive any knee-jerk reactions to this post but that people read what I wrote and thoughtfully consider it. That is what I hope.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 02:48 PM
On this one though, I can't, after having read those articles, seem to wrap my head around how anyone can not at least stop and wonder when the board of directors of a ministry approves for their corporate offices to spend donated money on a $23,000 commode.


I'm having a hard time reconciling this one also... imo, it's not a very good witness to the world. :(

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2007, 02:49 PM
That's exactly the point. This is NOT her money and she CANNOT use it for whatever she wants. Her ministry does not pay taxes on the money that is coming in because it supposed to be used for religious purposes. When you get your paycheck your taxes are already taken out.

So, if this money is not being taxed then it needs to be used for religious/charitable purposes. That means if you purchase a private jet with ministry funds then you use the private jet for your ministry, not for whatever you please.

The info contained in the article is disturbing, but we shouldn't automatically condemn her or the investigation. We should just let the investigation run its course and see what happens.

Well said, Matthew!

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 02:51 PM
Ah-
A voice of reason and logic.
You have soothed me diffangle

always
Nov 7th 2007, 03:25 PM
I'm not bearing false witness. I'd be bearing false witness if I knew it was false and said it. I think Dateline NBC is a fairly reliable source. Plus, the report includes many other things like his Pacific Ocean home valued at $10 million. That's tough to lie about. This isn't just gossip that is being passed around. It's well-known that Hinn spends a lot of money. It's not a story concocted to slander him. Is there really any doubt that he lives an extravagant lifestyle? Watch the report on this link. He stayed in a suite that cost $10,000 per night. The room had it's own pool.

Link to Dateline NBC story about Benny Hinn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUyPjeIFKug

The other ministers I have not researched enough, but I don't trust Benny Hinn as far as I can throw him.

We all need to question where our money goes. It is 100% undeniable that people have used religion to steal money from people in the past. Other people will come along and try it again and so we need to be on guard. These people give Christianity a bad name. Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Peter Popoff, Ted Haggard, the Catholic priest scandals. We've got to protect our faith and that means that we hold our leaders accountable for misbehavior.


Actually false witnessing in the bible was the same as it is today, Ever wonder why "here say" is not allowed in court? because no two people see or hear things the same, if you did not see it with your own eyes, hear it with your own ears, YOU are a false witness


I just realized what these people remind me of. Has anyone seen the movie
"Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin

I saw that movie as well, it actually show a wolf change by the faith of one believing in the works of God and not him

always
Nov 7th 2007, 03:32 PM
I really think sincerely that we allow the scrutiny of ministers, any minister, to upset us because of a lack of confidence.

It is not about misappropriated funds with most, because if you are a believer you know God will take care of that and the legal field as well.

It's about covetnous! not being content in your own blessing, seeing others being prosperous in Christ, bothers people for some ungodly reason.

What these ministers have or have not is between them and God

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 03:39 PM
I really think sincerely that we allow the scrutiny of ministers, any minister, to upset us because of a lack of confidence.

It is not about misappropriated funds with most, because if you are a believer you know God will take care of that and the legal field as well.

It's about covetnous! not being content in your own blessing, seeing others being prosperous in Christ, bothers people for some ungodly reason.

What these ministers have or have not is between them and God

You are assuming a lot. I feel incredibly blessed, so much so that I constantly try to give (maybe not money, but other things) to others whom I feel have less. We are a one income family, but we have more than a lot of people who are struggling with two incomes. That being said, the misappropriated funds are what bother me the most. Some people who are very close to the poverty line are giving most of what they have because they are duped by people like Meyer. Do you think she feels bad if someone does not receive what she promises? No, she tells them it is their fault. She is not a blessing on anyone, but herself and those around her who benefit from her abuse of other people's generosity. Do you feel badly for the people who are giving everything they have because she is telling them that is what God calls them to do? What if it was your grandmother or someone close to you? How would you feel if this woman took your grandmother's life savings and squandered it on a toilet seat?

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 03:42 PM
I always get myself nutsy-crazy. I honestly understand what most people mean when they post, even if they and I don't agree on something.
I can see where their thinking logically comes from and I can see where mine logically comes from. Usually, neither I nor they are completely insane.

On this one though, I can't, after having read those articles, seem to wrap my head around how anyone can not at least stop and wonder when the board of directors of a ministry approves for their corporate offices to spend donated money on a $23,000 commode.

Forget for now that the ministry used donated money of over 6 million to buy homes for her and her children and well over $400,000 to supply them all with lexuses. I repeat: donated money.

So for now, just focus on a $23,000 commode with that donated money.Not whether God would approve but only whether the donations came from people who would have gladly given it for that commode.

She makes money, lots and lots, off of the books she writes. This money was not donated and she has every right to spend it as she and God see fit.

Donated money is a much different matter.

I hope to not receive any knee-jerk reactions to this post but that people read what I wrote and thoughtfully consider it. That is what I hope.

If I could, I would rep you. Thank you for having the courage to be able to see through the smoke and mirrors.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 03:54 PM
You are assuming a lot. I feel incredibly blessed, so much so that I constantly try to give (maybe not money, but other things) to others whom I feel have less. We are a one income family, but we have more than a lot of people who are struggling with two incomes. That being said, the misappropriated funds are what bother me the most. Some people who are very close to the poverty line are giving most of what they have because they are duped by people like Meyer. Do you think she feels bad if someone does not receive what she promises? No, she tells them it is their fault. She is not a blessing on anyone, but herself and those around her who benefit from her abuse of other people's generosity. Do you feel badly for the people who are giving everything they have because she is telling them that is what God calls them to do? What if it was your grandmother or someone close to you? How would you feel if this woman took your grandmother's life savings and squandered it on a toilet seat?

So how did Meyer dupe or deceive people?

always
Nov 7th 2007, 03:57 PM
You are assuming a lot. I feel incredibly blessed, so much so that I constantly try to give (maybe not money, but other things) to others whom I feel have less. We are a one income family, but we have more than a lot of people who are struggling with two incomes. That being said, the misappropriated funds are what bother me the most. Some people who are very close to the poverty line are giving most of what they have because they are duped by people like Meyer. Do you think she feels bad if someone does not receive what she promises? No, she tells them it is their fault. She is not a blessing on anyone, but herself and those around her who benefit from her abuse of other people's generosity. Do you feel badly for the people who are giving everything they have because she is telling them that is what God calls them to do? What if it was your grandmother or someone close to you? How would you feel if this woman took your grandmother's life savings and squandered it on a toilet seat?

I truly am not trying to be argumentive, but why does that bother you?

People close the poverty line giving away their money to ministers, lotteries, whatever are being duped because they do not read and study their bibles, and it is no ones fault but theirs!

Meyer and no one else can promise me anything, they are vessels used of God, when ones forget that, they set themselves up for a fall.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor ones that use the word of God for profit, but what I hate even more, is thoses that follow them out of ignorance

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 03:58 PM
The use of donated money. What does scripture say?

Matt 17:24-27

24 And when they had come to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter, and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax ?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 And upon his saying, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Consequently the sons are exempt. 27 "But, lest we give them offense, go to the sea, and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a stater. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."
NASB

Jesus donated money to that which he did not approve. Why? To keep from offending those who were taking, through a tax Jesus said was not lawful. Did Jesus complain about how they spent it? Did he worry about what was done with it? Nah.

always
Nov 7th 2007, 04:02 PM
The use of donated money. What does scripture say?

Matt 17:24-27

24 And when they had come to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter, and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax ?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 And upon his saying, "From strangers," Jesus said to him, "Consequently the sons are exempt. 27 "But, lest we give them offense, go to the sea, and throw in a hook, and take the first fish that comes up; and when you open its mouth, you will find a stater. Take that and give it to them for you and Me."
NASB

Jesus donated money to that which he did not approve. Why? To keep from offending those who were taking, through a tax Jesus said was not lawful. Did Jesus complain about how they spent it? Did he worry about what was done with it? Nah.


And that's what I'm talking about!!!!! why are these people worrying about someone else's money?

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 04:02 PM
So how did Meyer dupe or deceive people?

If she tells people their money is going toward one thing and then uses it for her own selfish gain, that is duping someone. Especially when she is telling these people that God wants them to give up all this money, so they will prosper. When they do not "prosper" or receive healing like she promised she turns around and tells them it is their fault. Where do you think the $600 in one hundred dollar bills came from in the one story? The guy questioned her and this money appeared, but when he questioned further he was booted from the church. I am not sure why you guys are so unwilling to see what is clearly being placed in front of you. I am not going to continue to "debate" this. You are completely incapable of seeing what is in black and white and I tire of trying to "knock" some sense into you (poor choice of words, but I couldn't think of anything else at the moment). I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 04:08 PM
If she tells people their money is going toward one thing and then uses it for her own selfish gain, that is duping someone. Especially when she is telling these people that God wants them to give up all this money, so they will prosper. When they do not "prosper" or receive healing like she promised she turns around and tells them it is their fault. Where do you think the $600 in one hundred dollar bills came from in the one story? The guy questioned her and this money appeared, but when he questioned further he was booted from the church. I am not sure why you guys are so unwilling to see what is clearly being placed in front of you. I am not going to continue to "debate" this. You are completely incapable of seeing what is in black and white and I tire of trying to "knock" some sense into you (poor choice of words, but I couldn't think of anything else at the moment). I guess ignorance truly is bliss.

So, is she doing that? Is she using money for selfish purposes? Is she telling them the money is for one thing and doing another with it? Have you verified the $600 story? you know this to be true?

The IRS and our government will most likely determine if these things have happened. They will verify it instead of going on hearsay or articles.

Lyndie
Nov 7th 2007, 04:16 PM
A Senate investigation should not be too awfully difficult. Reporters have no problem conducting investigations all the time. Here's an example of a current one:

Just Another In A Long Line Of Greedy Televangelists (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74VHiVLROM) reported by News 8, YouTube, 11/1/07
This is a video expose on YouTube.

My main concern is that, according to the way I see Biblical teaching, any Christian--ANY Christian--should be above reproach. So, all of the ones under investigation should willingly hand over any proof they can to show those within the church, and without, that they are being upright in their financial dealings.


That article was written in 2003, since then, she has made her fianances available on her website, and that said newspaper is being investigated for lying about what it printed.
For the most part, everything I read or see in the news I take with a grain of salt, because someone behind the scenes always has thier own agenda. IMO, this is just another attack on christianity, and they chose to attack these people because they are so public.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 04:17 PM
Matthew 23

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 04:20 PM
Matthew 23

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Diffy this is a true verse. We just need to make sure that someone fits it before we go off accusing them of it.

Here's another verse that is just as true.

Mark 9:38-50

38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to hinder him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who shall perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
NASB

Often, we think because someone doesn't follow us, by following our belief system, they are false prophets. But Jesus said we are not to hinder such a one.

Matthew 12:21
Nov 7th 2007, 04:26 PM
Can we all just agree that if, and I said IF, she is indeed using donated funds to support her exhorbitant lifestyle, that it is wrong? That being said, how many people are really comfortable with her buying a 23,000 dollar toilet? If that is truly how you want to spend your own hard earned money, then I say fair enough. It seems to me though that something all these televangelists have in common is that they spend and spend and spend, and I think it can come to a point where it is irresponsible. Irresponsible in the sense that it is extravagant beyond proportion, and irresponsible because of the testimony it sends to the world.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 04:30 PM
Can we all just agree that if she is indeed using donated funds to support her exhorbitant lifestyle, that it is wrong? That being said, how many people are comfortable with her buying a 23,000 dollar toilet? If that is truly how you want to spend your hard earned money, fair enough. It seems to me though that all these televangelists spend and spend and spend, and I think it can come to a point where it is irresponsible.

Well, let's eliminate the word "exhorbitant" because that is a judgment. Solomon lived a lifestyle that was far above many in his day, yet God never once chastised him for it. Actually, God was the one that gave him the wealth. Did he earn it? If taxation can be earned. Of course, there were other things he did to help create wealth, so earned might be applied to those.

Also, irresponsible is a judging word. What is irresponsible for me, may not be for someone else.

Having said that, if she broke the law, then she was wrong. And if she is has lied about what the money is being used for, that is wrong.

But spending money on $23,000 toilets, while seems high to me, isn't necessarily wrong. Shoot, if we want to compare our lifestyle to Haiti, most of them would accuse us of the same EXACT things many on here are accusing Joyce Meyer of with her expenditure of money.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 04:44 PM
If you attended a church and your pastor took donated funds, (tithes,offerings,donations), to put say........a sauna room in back in his office, would you be upset?

Or would you say: I have decided to put my trust in him and I see no reason to question how he spends the money. However he sees fit is okay with me. After all, we have a board of directors for accountabilty and if this board of directors consisting of his wife, his four children and his two closest freinds who are also church employees have approved the expenditure, then I am okay with it.

As long as we, as a church, continue to allocate 10% of what we take in to charitable causes, who cares what they decide to do with the other 90%?

As long as I know that 1,000 dollars of the 10,000 I give yearly goes to help another human in need somewhere on the globe, I am pleased.

And I really see no reason to take pause that ALL of these people on the board are also paid employees of the church except for his wife. These are Godly people and therefore would never vote pay raises for themselves irrisponsibly because they don't have the same temptations as we do with large sums of money.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 04:54 PM
Diffy this is a true verse. We just need to make sure that someone fits it before we go off accusing them of it.

Agreed. I never said she definately has a $23,000 toilet, I'm saying that if that's the case, it's very disturbing and a bad witness to the world. Also, after looking at pics of her extravegant estate, I wouldn't be surprised if the $23,000 toilet ends up(lol, get the pun?:lol:) being a reality.



Here's another verse that is just as true.

Mark 9:38-50

38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to hinder him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who shall perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. 42 "And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."
NASB

Often, we think because someone doesn't follow us, by following our belief system, they are false prophets. But Jesus said we are not to hinder such a one.

Obviously some of the "little ones who believes" are stumbling at the apparant greed of some of these tv evangelist.

Mat 6:24 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=24&version=KJV#24)No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Also, we see that there are those who will preach, prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in His Name who will not enter into the Kingdom...

Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=22&version=kjv#22)Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=23&version=kjv#23)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 04:56 PM
Billy Graham has always insisted that the board of directores of his church not be church employees, relatives, or even freinds of his.

He also demanded that a rule be followed that he never be left alone to counsel a woman in a room without at least one other person present.

He did this because he knew he was weak and subject to temptations and also because he didn't want a single breath of scandal to taint his ministry.

He is a Godly man with a very true and accurate understanding of who he is and what is in his nature.

He insisted, very adamantly that he must be surrounded by people who could call him onto the carpet without any fear of repurcussions.

He walks through life with brutal honesty and he always wanted to preach and not be in charge of any monies.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 05:01 PM
The earthly pay out looks good (I suppose it is nice to have a Rolls Royce - Ha), but I do not think the wrath of God is worth it.

;)

Can I ask a question? Say these evangelists are false prophets, can they pray and ask forgiveness and get away with it?

Frances
Nov 7th 2007, 05:10 PM
Can I ask a question? Say these evangelists are false prophets, can they pray and ask forgiveness and get away with it?

I believe that if they repent and ask for forgiveness God will Forgive them. . . what do you mean by "get away with it?" - as far as God is concerned I don't believe any of us 'get away' with any unrepented Sin at all.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 05:22 PM
Solomon lived a lifestyle that was far above many in his day, yet God never once chastised him for it. Actually, God was the one that gave him the wealth.

Did YHWH give him the wealth that built high places for pagan gods? I have a hard time believing YHWH ordained his money paying for harems/lust. Just b/c Solomon spent extravagantly doesn't make it all YHWH ordained. Also try not to forget that YHWH caused his Kingdom to collapse b/c of the sins of Solomon.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 05:26 PM
Very good point Diff!
It was very sharp and shows the ability the Holy Spirit has given you to see the grand picture.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:27 PM
Agreed. I never said she definately has a $23,000 toilet, I'm saying that if that's the case, it's very disturbing and a bad witness to the world. Also, after looking at pics of her extravegant estate, I wouldn't be surprised if the $23,000 toilet ends up(lol, get the pun?:lol:) being a reality.

What about Solomon's witness. Was it impacted by his extravagant life style? You betcha.


1 Kings 10:4-10
4 When the queen of Sheba perceived all the wisdom of Solomon, the house that he had built, 5 the food of his table, the seating of his servants, the attendance of his waiters and their attire, his cupbearers, and his stairway by which he went up to the house of the LORD, there was no more spirit in her. 6 Then she said to the king, "It was a true report which I heard in my own land about your words and your wisdom. 7 Nevertheless I did not believe the reports, until I came and my eyes had seen it. And behold, the half was not told me. You exceed in wisdom and prosperity the report which I heard. 8 How blessed are your men, how blessed are these your servants who stand before you continually and hear your wisdom. 9 Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the LORD loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, to do justice and righteousness." 10 And she gave the king a hundred and twenty talents of gold, and a very great amount of spices and precious stones. Never again did such abundance of spices come in as that which the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon.
NASB

So, Solomon's prosperity and wisdom were a witness to the Queen of Sheeba.




Obviously some of the "little ones who believes" are stumbling at the apparant greed of some of these tv evangelist.

Mat 6:24 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&v=24&version=KJV#24)No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Also, we see that there are those who will preach, prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in His Name who will not enter into the Kingdom...

Mat 7:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=15&version=kjv#15)¶Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=22&version=kjv#22)Many will say to me in that day, Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=7&verse=23&version=kjv#23)And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Verses are again correct. But how do you know that Joyce Meyer is greedy? How do you know she is a false prophet? How do you know she serves mammon?

Those are judgments, that at this point, we don't have enough information to make.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:30 PM
Did YHWH give him the wealth that built high places for pagan gods? I have a hard time believing YHWH ordained his money paying for harems/lust. Just b/c Solomon spent extravagantly doesn't make it all YHWH ordained. Also try not to forget that YHWH caused his Kingdom to collapse b/c of the sins of Solomon.

Ah. There is a difference between spending money to make idols and spending it on a toilet. Of course God did not want him to spend his money in that way. And it was his lust for women that ultimately led him astray, not his money. That was why God told him not to marry foreign women.

But, as I put in the quote above, Solomon's wealth was a witness to the Queen of Sheba. His wealth and wisdom led her to praise the Lord.

We cannot look into these people's heart and call them greedy. We do not know that. Our definition of extravagant living is quite different than one who lives in Colombia. It is also quite different than the One who lives in heaven.

Love of money and greed are sins. Scripture does not say that spending money on really expensive things is wrong.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 05:32 PM
Verses are again correct. But how do you know that Joyce Meyer is greedy? How do you know she is a false prophet? How do you know she serves mammon?

Why would two people(her and her husband) need a 10,000 sq. ft. home?

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 05:33 PM
I don't know about you Diff, but I think, having spoke the truths He has shown me and armed me with, I can now rest and withdraw and let the endless debate rage on without me.
Hope to see you all again.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:39 PM
If you attended a church and your pastor took donated funds, (tithes,offerings,donations), to put say........a sauna room in back in his office, would you be upset?

No. Judas was a keeper of the money and he was a thief. Obviously, they new he was a thief because it is recorded in scripture. Yet, he was not confronted about it. Jesus never got offended over Jesus stealing the money. Why? Because Jesus did not love money. If he did, then he might have gotten really angry over it.



Or would you say: I have decided to put my trust in him and I see no reason to question how he spends the money. However he sees fit is okay with me. After all, we have a board of directors for accountabilty and if this board of directors consisting of his wife, his four children and his two closest freinds who are also church employees have approved the expenditure, then I am okay with it.

Oh, when I give, I am not putting my trust in a system or a person. I am giving to the Lord. If the money is misused, that is between them and God. I see nowhere in scripture where I am to hold those I give money to, accountable for what they do with their money. So, if the Lord tells me to give to a ministry, I give it to him by giving to the ministry.

Now, if a sin is exposed by God, then we need to deal with. As for Joyce Meyer, I am not in authority over her in any way. If she has dealt wrongly with her finances or her ministry's finances and broken laws, the authority will deal with her. The IRS will look into. What has not been noted on this thread, is some have said that the IRS gave her ministry a letter in Oct saying the rules had been followed. But then, that is hearsay too.

The truth will come out. Till then, I will hold my peace on judging her. If she is a child of God, God will not appreciate me judging her heart before the facts are fully known any more than any parents wants to have his/her child spoken about in an evil way. ;)



As long as we, as a church, continue to allocate 10% of what we take in to charitable causes, who cares what they decide to do with the other 90%?

As long as I know that 1,000 dollars of the 10,000 I give yearly goes to help another human in need somewhere on the globe, I am pleased.

And I really see no reason to take pause that ALL of these people on the board are also paid employees of the church except for his wife. These are Godly people and therefore would never vote pay raises for themselves irrisponsibly because they don't have the same temptations as we do with large sums of money.

Hmmm. Godly people can vote themselves pay raises. Money is not evil. But the love of it is. Not sure what the last part quoted is about, but that's OK.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 05:40 PM
We cannot look into these people's heart and call them greedy. We do not know that. Our definition of extravagant living is quite different than one who lives in Colombia.

Imo, it's not way off base in saying that $23,000 commodes and $12,000 clocks are on the greedy extravagant side. :rolleyes: Do you think Yahushua or the Apostles had those things?

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:41 PM
Why would two people(her and her husband) need a 10,000 sq. ft. home?


Having been on mission trips to foreign lands, the Massai tribe in Africa might ask "What does an American need with a 600 sf home?"

The huts we stayed in might have been 20 sf max.

Need has nothing to do with Diffy. Did Solomon need a house as large as he had? Or did David? Yet, God gave them large houses.

Seeker of truth
Nov 7th 2007, 05:43 PM
Here is the thing for me....rather or not she misspent funds I do not know. I'm sure I would have spent the money differently but I am not in her shoes. I keep remembering the verse about it being easier to get a camel through the eye if a needle that for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

That said, she definitly is a Spirit filled servant of the Lord. I'm sure she has helped to bring many people to Him. That counts for a lot in my opinion.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:43 PM
The love of money...

One time, the Lord ask me an interesting question. I had been reading on the rich young ruler. I was about to give every dime away I had. God asked me...

"If a rich greedy man gives all his money to the poor, what does he become?" I pondered and then realized and answered "A poor greedy man".

It was a valuable lesson. 1. The love of money is not limited to the rich. Jesus had no love of money and therefore was not offended by it's misuse. Both rich and poor can love money.

2. Having money is not the problem. Having greed is.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 05:44 PM
I don't know about you Diff, but I think, having spoke the truths He has shown me and armed me with, I can now rest and withdraw and let the endless debate rage on without me.
Hope to see you all again.
Peace out. :kiss:

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:45 PM
Imo, it's not way off base in saying that $23,000 commodes and $12,000 clocks are on the greedy extravagant side. :rolleyes: Do you think Yahushua or the Apostles had those things?

Nope. The apostle Barnabas may have. Solomon did. And sense God owns everything, he definitely has them. ;)

Follow_Me_Infantry
Nov 7th 2007, 05:48 PM
Isn't it amazing the power an inanimate object holds, money specifically? Nothing even comes close to the power money has to drive apart friendships, ruin marriages, tempt otherwise honorable people, and create discord in otherwise solid groups.

I'll be honest, every time I read a story like this I say a prayer of thanks that I am poor. I used to make pretty decent money before I ruined my leg, and I admit that it did change me. I was able to give more, but I was also able to honor self more. I think I'm happier with less to give - every time I do give, it is a bit more of a sacrifice, requiring a bit more faith to follow His word, resulting in a bit more of a personal victory.

Please note the use of personal victory: I believe there are lots of people out there that handle wealth just fine - I am simply not one of them.

I'll further extend that honesty to state that I am not mature enough in Christ to comment on Mrs. Meyers' spending habits. I used to own a couple of her books and, if I recall, I've donated outside of those sales to her ministry. I don't regret those monies as I received a decent product for my dollar in the books, and felt I was doing what God would have me do in the case of donations (if I did indeed donate).

Is a $28,000 toilet lid excessive? Maybe. Someone here used how poorer Africans would view their computer as an analogy, and I tend to agree. A homeless man probably views my drum set as an excessive, unnecessary luxury whose money would have been better spent buying him a cup of coffee and a hamburger. I would agree with him, and I feel Jesus would also demand of us that we follow His words and feed the hungry.

I don't think anyone here would argue that every dime we have, earned, borrowed or donated, is of Him. He gives us the talents to earn, the resources to borrow from, and the grace of gifts. In that regard, ALL we have should be reinvested into ministry in one way or the other. However, we're also told to enjoy what He has given to us. The fact that people who make multi millions per year enjoy finer things than a cheap drum set does not escape me.

I dunno, folks. Like I said, I'll refrain from commenting on her "guilt" or "innocence" or how she chooses to spend her money. I'm just glad I don't have that kind of money to make those kinds of decisions.

Matthew 12:21
Nov 7th 2007, 05:52 PM
No. Judas was a keeper of the money and he was a thief. Obviously, they new he was a thief because it is recorded in scripture. Yet, he was not confronted about it. Jesus never got offended over Jesus stealing the money. Why? Because Jesus did not love money. If he did, then he might have gotten really angry over it.

:o
I'm angry because she's potentially taking advantage of people here. She may be betraying people who trusted her to spend the money responsibly, to spend it to help people. I can't believe this attitude that since it's not affecting us personally, it's not a big deal. There are people sitting at home who are sending these televangelists their life savings, and that is no joke. This is very serious to me, and it has NOTHING to do with the love of money. It has everything to do with them taking advantage of people.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 05:55 PM
:o
I'm angry because she's potentially taking advantage of people here. She may be betraying people who trusted her to spend the money responsibly, to spend it to help people. I can't believe this attitude that since it's not affecting us personally, it's not a big deal. There are people sitting at home who are sending these televangelists their life savings, and that is no joke. This is very serious to me, and it has NOTHING to do with the love of money. It has everything to do with taking advantage of people.

But you are angry on potential? Has she betrayed them?

Did Judas take advantage of people by stealing the donations made to Jesus? Yes he did! But the kingdom is not made up of money. Jesus didn't get mad at Judas about that nor was Judas ever revoked.

But we do have verses that say "Let no man deceive you". If I am deceived, I am partly to blame. But, as yet, has anyone proven that she has deceived anyone.

Look, my point on this thread is judgment. We must be very careful when we start throwing around accusations.

Matthew 12:21
Nov 7th 2007, 06:05 PM
But you are angry on potential? Has she betrayed them?

Did Judas take advantage of people by stealing the donations made to Jesus? Yes he did! But the kingdom is not made up of money. Jesus didn't get mad at Judas about that nor was Judas ever revoked.

But we do have verses that say "Let no man deceive you". If I am deceived, I am partly to blame. But, as yet, has anyone proven that she has deceived anyone.

Look, my point on this thread is judgment. We must be very careful when we start throwing around accusations.

I was careful to add "if" and "potentially" in my statement. I was responding specifically to your post where you seemed to make the insinuation that even if Joyce Meyer is doing this, it's not our concern because money isn't important to God. You know what, I bet money isn't important to God, but the welfare of His children certainly is. And IF* they are being taken advantage of, I don't think we should sit idly and let it happen.

*if, potentially, perchance, possibly, maybe

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:06 PM
Look, my point on this thread is judgment. We must be very careful when we start throwing around accusations.

No one is throwing accusations, we are merely talking about what several articles about the matter say. We are giving our opinions on the facts presented in said articles. If the media was slandering her she could sue their pants off. I doubt they would take that risk.

Seeker of truth
Nov 7th 2007, 06:07 PM
Let me ask, all the people she has shown the Way to Him and shared His Word with them, do they suddenly become unsaved because she may have misspent funds?

The answer is no, so doesn't the good she has done outweigh the bad?

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:09 PM
I was careful to add "if" and "potentially" in my statement. I was responding specifically to your post where you made the insinuation that even if Joyce Meyer is doing this, it's not our concern because money isn't important to God. You know what, I bet money isn't important to God, but the welfare of His children certainly is. And IF* they are being taken advantage of, I don't think we should sit idly and let it happen.

*if, potentially, perchance, possibly, maybe

Ever stop and wonder why some people always seem to be in the middle of the "debates" on the board? Some people just like to selectively read and argue ;)

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 06:19 PM
Let me ask, all the people she has shown the Way to Him and shared His Word with them, do they suddenly become unsaved because she may have misspent funds?

The answer is no, so doesn't the good she has done outweigh the bad?
Does one bad apple spoil the whole barrel? Think of how many lost souls who see what appears to be greed in these tv evangelists are turned off and away from Him. It also raises flags when many of them employ known psycological/hypnotic/brainwashing techniques into their shows.

2Cr 11:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=11&verse=13&version=kjv#13)For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Cr 11:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=14&version=KJV#14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:20 PM
I was careful to add "if" and "potentially" in my statement. I was responding specifically to your post where you seemed to make the insinuation that even if Joyce Meyer is doing this, it's not our concern because money isn't important to God. You know what, I bet money isn't important to God, but the welfare of His children certainly is. And IF* they are being taken advantage of, I don't think we should sit idly and let it happen.

*if, potentially, perchance, possibly, maybe

Of course the welfare of his children is important to him. But Jesus did not get angry over Judas stealing, at the very least it wasn't something that his anger was pointed out to us in scripture. Why? Because money isn't what God needs to care for us. It never has been.

But again, those of us that are deceived bear some of the blame. That is why scripture warns us to "let no man deceive you".

But again, why be angry over an "if" statement. If you are indeed angry over this, have you not already decided?

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 06:20 PM
I was careful to add "if" and "potentially" in my statement. I was responding specifically to your post where you seemed to make the insinuation that even if Joyce Meyer is doing this, it's not our concern because money isn't important to God. You know what, I bet money isn't important to God, but the welfare of His children certainly is. And IF* they are being taken advantage of, I don't think we should sit idly and let it happen.

*if, potentially, perchance, possibly, maybe


This last line of your post was very painful for me and I think maybe you should warn people who may perchance have a mouthful of coffee possibly not swallowed yet that a potential problem could occur involving laughter and coffee shooting out of their nose!

Seeker of truth
Nov 7th 2007, 06:23 PM
Does one bad apple spoil the whole barrel?

2Cr 11:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=11&verse=13&version=kjv#13)For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Cr 11:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=14&version=KJV#14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

So she did no good by helping to Save countless people?

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:24 PM
No one is throwing accusations, we are merely talking about what several articles about the matter say. We are giving our opinions on the facts presented in said articles. If the media was slandering her she could sue their pants off. I doubt they would take that risk.

And if that opinion is not based in fact, is it then gossip? My point? I don't think we should have an opinion about the guilt of Joyce Meyer at this point. Love covers a multitude of sin.

Please consider this... Just to make it clear, and hoping to make a point about opinions concerning this thing...

Let's assume that someone said they had seen you committing adultery. Is it OK to for them to speak of it to anyone? What if they read it in the paper? Would then be alright to have an opinion on your guilt and to speak of what should happen to you? Whether true or not, we need to be careful in how we deal with this situation.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:27 PM
Let's assume that someone said they had seen you committing adultery. Is it OK to for them to speak of it to anyone? What if they read it in the paper? Would then be alright to have an opinion on your guilt and to speak of what should happen to you? Whether true or not, we need to be careful in how we deal with this situation.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Edited to add: It is not gossip if you read something in the newspaper UNLESS it is a gossip rag. As a former newspaper reporter I can tell you that no one would risk being sued, especially by a woman with unlimited funds, just to run a slander piece.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:29 PM
You are comparing apples to oranges.

How so? Both are reported in the paper. Neither are proven? Both are personal. What's the difference in the reaction of people?

Matthew 12:21
Nov 7th 2007, 06:30 PM
This last line of your post was very painful for me and I think maybe you should warn people who may perchance have a mouthful of coffee possibly not swallowed yet that a potential problem could occur involving laughter and coffee shooting out of their nose!

Oh no! I apologize if I by chance happened to cause you possible discomfort. I don't think that was my intention at all. Maybe I wanted to add a little humor! I'm unsure though. People tell me I'm very indecisive sometimes.
And are you sure that was coffee? It could potentially have been strong tea.
Ahem. :rofl:


Of course the welfare of his children is important to him. But Jesus did not get angry over Judas stealing, at the very least it wasn't something that his anger was pointed out to us in scripture. Why? Because money isn't what God needs to care for us. It never has been.

I still don't understand. People need money to support themselves and their families. If someone is not being honest about what they are doing with money that hard working people gave them in good faith, it's wrong. I was so sure that was something we could all agree on.

IF that's happening of course...and it may not be!!!

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 06:34 PM
Does one bad apple spoil the whole barrel? Think of how many lost souls who see what appears to be greed in these tv evangelists are turned off and away from Him. It also raises flags when many of them employ known psycological/hypnotic/brainwashing techniques into their shows.

2Cr 11:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=2Cr&chapter=11&verse=13&version=kjv#13)For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2Cr 11:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=14&version=KJV#14)And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


So she did no good by helping to Save countless people?
I went back and added to that post. :) Since I believe that Yahushua is the one that does the saving, I dare say that she has not saved anyone.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:35 PM
How so? Both are reported in the paper. Neither are proven? Both are personal. What's the difference in the reaction of people?

Because there is a world of difference between the two. On one hand you have something as monumental as a possible false prophet whose teachings affect billions of people and her misappropriation of money meant to do God's work. On the other you have a nameless, faceless individual who is being slandered by idle gossip that no one, other than the parties involved, is being effected by.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:39 PM
Because there is a world of difference between the two. On one hand you have something as monumental as a possible false prophet whose teachings affect billions of people and her misappropriation of money meant to do God's work. On the other you have a nameless, faceless individual who is being slandered by idle gossip that no one, other than the parties involved, is being effected by.

Ah, but very few people in this thread have focused on the teachings. Instead, choosing to focus on the "potential" problem.

Scripture does not say we can openly discuss a potential problem for a real person. Show me in scripture where we can openly discuss a potential problem for one person (i.e. Joyce Meyer) but the other (i.e. your potential adultery) is not allowed. Now, when the sin becomes evident and is confirmed, we know steps to take after that.

But before that, is it not gossip?

Lyndie
Nov 7th 2007, 06:39 PM
Edited to add: It is not gossip if you read something in the newspaper UNLESS it is a gossip rag. As a former newspaper reporter I can tell you that no one would risk being sued, especially by a woman with unlimited funds, just to run a slander piece.

I think most newspapers in America today are gossip rags, which is why I don't get the local paper anymore. I for one know I wouldn't like my life being printed, as papers have a way of taking things out of context. Example-XYZ newspaper headline-
Pres. Bush hates America
The real story- Pres. Bush stated today that people seem to think "I hate America because I do ..."

It's very easy to manipulate stories.

BTW, Joyce's ministry gives back out 83% of all donations. Its on her website.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:42 PM
I still don't understand. People need money to support themselves and their families. If someone is not being honest about what they are doing with money that hard working people gave them in good faith, it's wrong. I was so sure that was something we could all agree on.

IF that's happening of course...and it may not be!!!

Of course it would be wrong. But let me ask a very revealing question. Does this situation with Joyce Meyer anger you? If so, have you not already in your heart decided her guilt or innocence? Now, we can get angry over the concept of deception. No problem there. I would consider that righteous anger. But to be mad at Joyce Meyer's ministries at this point... is that jumping the gun?

Seeker of truth
Nov 7th 2007, 06:44 PM
I went back and added to that post. :) Since I believe that Yahushua is the one that does the saving, I dare say that she has not saved anyone.

I feel you are splitting hairs as I myself clearly stated she helped to bring people to the Lord.

I'm done. God bless :)

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:45 PM
Edited to add: It is not gossip if you read something in the newspaper UNLESS it is a gossip rag. As a former newspaper reporter I can tell you that no one would risk being sued, especially by a woman with unlimited funds, just to run a slander piece.

So for something to be gossip, it has to be false? To say something bad about someone as long as it is true is OK?

And knowing that news paper reporters will get sued for saying something false, then is everything they write about people true? Really? And what newspaper reported that Meyer is a false prophet? Or has sinned in her handling of money?

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:45 PM
Ah, but very few people in this thread have focused on the teachings. Instead, choosing to focus on the "potential" problem.

Scripture does not say we can openly discuss a potential problem for a real person. Show me in scripture where we can openly discuss a potential problem for one person (i.e. Joyce Meyer) but the other (i.e. your potential adultery) is not allowed. Now, when the sin becomes evident and is confirmed, we know steps to take after that.

But before that, is it not gossip?

You speak in riddles, sir. I haven't the foggiest clue what you are trying to say.

:giveup: because I believe that those of you who continue to blindly defend her will do so regardless of the information placed at your finger tips. You can call me judgmental, a gossip, a slanderer, whatever makes you feel better about aiding this individual. In my heart I know that there is something very wrong about the situation.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 06:49 PM
So for something to be gossip, it has to be false? To say something bad about someone as long as it is true is OK?

And knowing that news paper reporters will get sued for saying something false, then is everything they write about people true? Really? And what newspaper reported that Meyer is a false prophet? Or has sinned in her handling of money?

FOR THE LOVE OF PETE! It is not gossip. The newspapers reported it because there is an investigation taking place. That is factual. The fact that there is an investigation taking place should give people an indication that there may or may not be something wrong and they should be cautious. I am seriously done after this post. You people are unbelievable! I may even put you on ignore. Talking to you does more harm then good. You are giving me a migraine.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:51 PM
You speak in riddles, sir. I haven't the foggiest clue what you are trying to say.

:giveup: because I believe that those of you who continue to blindly defend her will do so regardless of the information placed at your finger tips. You can call me judgmental, a gossip, a slanderer, whatever makes you feel better about aiding this individual. In my heart I know that there is something very wrong about the situation.

But didn't you say you only had an opinion? Now, you are saying there is something wrong. That has moved past opinion and into stating a fact.

Once the facts are in, then we can decide on the actions. As for judging the heart of Joyce Meyers, how are we to do that?

As I mentioned earlier, just as you deserve for others not to speak of accusations made against you, I do not believe we should speak or judge Ms. Meyers until the proof is in. Then, we should look at restoration. Even then, it is not for us, but rather those in authority over her to do.

Matthew
Nov 7th 2007, 06:55 PM
Actually false witnessing in the bible was the same as it is today, Ever wonder why "here say" is not allowed in court? because no two people see or hear things the same, if you did not see it with your own eyes, hear it with your own ears, YOU are a false witness

Hearsay isn't the same as bearing false witness. Just because something is hearsay doesn't mean it's a lie. It just means that it's inadmissible as evidence, generally.

I've backed up my words with a link to a Dateline NBC clip. No one is obligated to believe it, but I didn't just pull this out of thin air. Of course I'm repeating what I heard, but I'm also giving you the source to go and see for yourself.

I think it's important to keep in mind that we do not know these people personally. They may seem great, but some people are deceitful. Anyone who requests donations should be prepared to be 100% transparent with where that money goes.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 06:55 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF PETE! It is not gossip. The newspapers reported it because there is an investigation taking place. That is factual. The fact that there is an investigation taking place should give people an indication that there may or may not be something wrong and they should be cautious. I am seriously done after this post. You people are unbelievable! I may even put you on ignore. Talking to you does more harm then good. You are giving me a migraine.


Again, to walk in her shoes, and to make a point... if you were guilty of adultery, would it be OK to talk about it with others? I mean if it were true and factual, it wouldn't be gossip, right?

I have no issue with caution. But being cautious is not what is being suggested on this thread. Instead, what was said was "there is something wrong with this woman". Hmmm. And accusations about greed and being a false prophet. All of these go beyond warning someone about being cautious, don't you agree?

I see no problem discussing the investigation. I do see problems judging this woman's heart and her ministry.

always
Nov 7th 2007, 06:57 PM
Again, to walk in her shoes, and to make a point... if you were guilty of adultery, would it be OK to talk about it with others? I mean if it were true and factual, it wouldn't be gossip, right?

I have no issue with caution. But being cautious is not what is being suggested on this thread. Instead, what was said was "there is something wrong with this woman". Hmmm. And accusations about greed and being a false prophet. All of these go beyond warning someone about being cautious, don't you agree?

I see no problem discussing the investigation. I do see problems judging this woman's heart and her ministry.

You've may it so plain and backed everything you've said with scripture. be blessed

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 06:59 PM
I said a while back on this thread that I was retiring from this debate and I have stopped debating.

But I wanted to add one thing:

While I think all of us can learn and be edified by a discussion on morality and what Jesus taught on it by using current events for examples, I sincerely hope she is not guilty of irresponsible use of donated funds.
It is not in my heart to be gleeful at the stumbling of any other person. It is very painful to watch. I know how it feels.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 07:04 PM
I said a while back on this thread that I was retiring from this debate and I have stopped debating.

But I wanted to add one thing:

While I think all of us can learn and be edified by a discussion on morality and what Jesus taught on it by using current events for examples, I sincerely hope she is not guilty of irresponsible use of donated funds.
It is not in my heart to be gleeful at the stumbling of any other person. It is very painful to watch. I know how it feels.

Right! We should not be overjoyed at this investigation. I have seen the enemy attack people in this form before. Not that there are no facts to back this up, but I have seen people hurt deeply by witch hunts that were not factual before.

I will take no pleasure if she is found guilty. At that point and time, the sin should be made public and the rebuke, by her authority should be made public, so others will fear and not enter into the same sin.

However if she is innocent, how many people on this thread will repent for the words spoken against her? :hmm:

Matthew
Nov 7th 2007, 07:08 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF PETE! It is not gossip. The newspapers reported it because there is an investigation taking place. That is factual. The fact that there is an investigation taking place should give people an indication that there may or may not be something wrong and they should be cautious. I am seriously done after this post. You people are unbelievable! I may even put you on ignore. Talking to you does more harm then good. You are giving me a migraine.

I sense frustration. :D

Don't let the disagreements upset you. You won't make it to 300 posts. ;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 07:11 PM
I sense frustration. :D

Don't let the disagreements upset you. You won't make it to 300 posts. ;)

Ha, sorry. Blind, soap box soliloquies about how unjust it is that people discuss something that might be potentially damaging to the ministry tend to twist my knickers!

kayte
Nov 7th 2007, 07:16 PM
Of course the welfare of his children is important to him. But Jesus did not get angry over Judas stealing, at the very least it wasn't something that his anger was pointed out to us in scripture. Why? Because money isn't what God needs to care for us. It never has been.

But again, those of us that are deceived bear some of the blame. That is why scripture warns us to "let no man deceive you".

But again, why be angry over an "if" statement. If you are indeed angry over this, have you not already decided?
I'm going to mention this since you've brought up Judas several times. I don't believe this presents a clear picture of how the Lord dealt with Judas.

Judas was present with Jesus and heard everything that Jesus spoke. Jesus spoke about honesty, love, obedience to God, etc., all within Judas' ear-shot. So yes, Jesus did approach Judas, just as He approaches all of us... with His word. Did Judas' knees ever tremble? Do ours? Did Judas ever hear the words of Jesus and turn his head, denying that those words had anything to do with himself? Do we?

There are those that hear and respond. And there have always been and always will be Judas' in the camp of followers. We'll either walk in obedience with the Lord because we love Him, or we'll follow in His trail to acquire what we can for ourselves. The end of the one is life, the end of the other is destruction. Judas is a prime example of one that heard and loved self more than he loved God. He can no way fit the scenario of one that Jesus turned a blind eye to his sin because Jesus didn't find monetary sins worth spending his efforts on. See what I mean?

On a different matter... this thread is spiraling out of control and is likely to be closed very soon if the personal cracks don't stop. As brothers and sisters in Christ, above all, let each one of us honor Him... placing that far above our cause to defend our opinion.

Shake hands and don't come out fighting! :D :hug:

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 07:19 PM
I'm going to mention this since you've brought up Judas several times. I don't believe this presents a clear picture of how the Lord dealt with Judas.

Judas was present with Jesus and heard everything that Jesus spoke. Jesus spoke about honesty, love, obedience to God, etc., all within Judas' ear-shot. So yes, Jesus did approach Judas, just as He approaches all of us... with His word. Did Judas' knees ever tremble? Do ours? Did Judas ever hear the words of Jesus and turn his head, denying that those words had anything to do with himself? Do we?

There are those that hear and respond. And there have always been and always will be Judas' in the camp of followers. We'll either walk in obedience with the Lord because we love Him, or we'll follow in His trail to acquire what we can for ourselves. The end of the one is life, the end of the other is destruction. Judas is a prime example of one that heard and loved self more than he loved God. He can no way fit the scenario of one that Jesus turned a blind eye to his sin because Jesus didn't find monetary sins worth spending his efforts on. See what I mean?

yes. The point was Jesus didn't get mad at him over how he handled his organizations finances. He didn't rebuke him about the finances at all, as far as we know. But he did keep on loving him and preaching truth to him.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 07:36 PM
Right! We should not be overjoyed at this investigation. I have seen the enemy attack people in this form before. Not that there are no facts to back this up, but I have seen people hurt deeply by witch hunts that were not factual before.

I will take no pleasure if she is found guilty. At that point and time, the sin should be made public and the rebuke, by her authority should be made public, so others will fear and not enter into the same sin.

However if she is innocent, how many people on this thread will repent for the words spoken against her? :hmm:

I agree with what you have said here.
I do not agree with your earlier stance however, that it is perfectly alright for a spiritual leader to spend $23,000 on a toilet. Whether the charges leveled against her are found to be true or false, and regardless of what a poor person living in a tent in a jungle may regard as excess, the "theoretical" example of a spiritual leader spending $23,000 for a toilet with donated funds from congregants and followers is gross excess and irresponsibilty in the U.S. where she happens to live and use that installed toilet. My guess is the people in the tent in the jungle would wholeheartedly concur after they quit choking from shock.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 07:40 PM
I agree with what you have said here.
I do not agree with your earlier stance however, that it is perfectly alright for a spiritual leader to spend $23,000 on a toilet. Whether the charges leveled against her are found to be true or false, and regardless of what a poor person living in a tent in a jungle may regard as excess, the "theoretical" example of a spiritual leader spending $23,000 for a toilet with donated funds from congregants and followers is gross excess and irresponsibilty in the U.S. where she happens to live and use that installed toilet. My guess is the people in the tent in the jungle would wholeheartedly concur after they quit choking from shock.

Is it sin to have a $23,000 toilet? What's wrong with having a $23,000 toilet?

BCF
Nov 7th 2007, 07:46 PM
Is it sin to have a $23,000 toilet? What's wrong with having a $23,000 toilet?

Nothing, except I might have a problem using it, because I might make it dirty.:lol:

Follow_Me_Infantry
Nov 7th 2007, 07:47 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF PETE! It is not gossip. The newspapers reported it because there is an investigation taking place. That is factual. The fact that there is an investigation taking place should give people an indication that there may or may not be something wrong and they should be cautious. I am seriously done after this post. You people are unbelievable! I may even put you on ignore. Talking to you does more harm then good. You are giving me a migraine.

While I am not the target of your angst, I ask you reconsider: Talking never does more harm than good, even though the presentation can, at times, produce frustration. The best of a disagreement is often the opening of new ideas in situations where we are normally set in our processes.

I like to say: "Don't argue to win a debate; debate to avoid an argument." Perhaps that doesn't make much sense on the surface--and being new here certainly lends no credence or credibility to my additions--but if you think about it, discussing is educational while convincing is best left to an open audience that sought YOUR (mine, etc) solutions.

I just don't like to see Christians at odds. A discussion that puts us at odds is a matter of people incapable of truly discussing, IMHO. Quitting such (an admittedly) terse discussion is also a detriment. You seem like a very intelligent person, and I would personally appreciate seeing more of your comments for my edification within this thread.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 08:00 PM
While I am not the target of your angst, I ask you reconsider: Talking never does more harm than good, even though the presentation can, at times, produce frustration. The best of a disagreement is often the opening of new ideas in situations where we are normally set in our processes.

I like to say: "Don't argue to win a debate; debate to avoid an argument." Perhaps that doesn't make much sense on the surface--and being new here certainly lends no credence or credibility to my additions--but if you think about it, discussing is educational while convincing is best left to an open audience that sought YOUR (mine, etc) solutions.

I just don't like to see Christians at odds. A discussion that puts us at odds is a matter of people incapable of truly discussing, IMHO. Quitting such (an admittedly) terse discussion is also a detriment. You seem like a very intelligent person, and I would personally appreciate seeing more of your comments for my edification within this thread.

Very wise words indeed! Awww shucks, thanks for the compliments!

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 08:02 PM
While I am not the target of your angst, I ask you reconsider: Talking never does more harm than good, even though the presentation can, at times, produce frustration. The best of a disagreement is often the opening of new ideas in situations where we are normally set in our processes.

Actually, talking can do more harm than good. Scripture says the power of life and death are in the tongue. And if talking couldn't do more harm than good, would not gossip then be OK? Or slander? Or many other sins of the tongue?

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:10 PM
Is it sin to have a $23,000 toilet? What's wrong with having a $23,000 toilet?

Once again, we aren't connecting and you fail to see my point.
It is irresponsible for a spiritual leader to take funds acquired by donation from giving christians and buy a $23,000 dollar toilet with them for him or her self
This is truth. This the Holy Spirit has shown me. Truth is not subjective.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 08:14 PM
Once again, we aren't connecting and you fail to see my point.
It is irresponsible for a spiritual leader to take funds acquired by donation from giving christians and buy a $23,000 dollar toilet with them for him or her self
This is truth. This the Holy Spirit has shown me. Truth is not subjective.

Agreed about truth not being subjective. So, what scripture did God use to reveal this to you? And what exactly about it was sin? Would it have been sin had it never been discovered?

Follow_Me_Infantry
Nov 7th 2007, 08:21 PM
Actually, talking can do more harm than good. Scripture says the power of life and death are in the tongue. And if talking couldn't do more harm than good, would not gossip then be OK? Or slander? Or many other sins of the tongue?

Accepted. Allow me to rephrase:

"Talking with positive intentions rarely..."

I think you're taking words way too literally, sir, and I am not of a mind to begin every statement with a disqualifier. Please try and keep things in context and avoid tangents by picking apart an entire thought to choose certain words to discourse over.

Gossip and slander had nothing to do with my polite and respectful request set forth only to avoid another getting frustrated and removing them self from the conversation. Taking it any other way is provoking by removing context, and I've no doubt your reading comprehension is on par with your ability to retort.

"Talking" should not be confused with "slander," "gossip," or any other hurtful arrow set forth in the power of speech. Talking is friendly discourse, even when such conversation centers around a disagreement of principles and ideals.

But I am sure you know this quite well. Just because I am the new guy doesn't provide license to quote me out of context, sir, and I'll appreciate it if we could avoid future misunderstandings and instead focus on the intent and positive attributes of one another's statements. Oh, and in saying that, I will take this time to state that I do find your posts very inspiring for the most part, and I am pleased to meet you - in a more formal manner, that is. I look forward to reading much more from you!

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:25 PM
I can only ask you to read my posts a little more carefully and thoughtfully. I can't make you do it.
I didn't say owning a $23,000 dollar toilet in and of itself is a sin.
In fact, I never used the word sin at all.
I hope I will not have to type this out a fourth time:
Using the donated money of giving christians to your ministry for the purchase of a $23,000 toilet for yourself is an irresponsible use of those donations. It is also gross excess.
This is truth.
Also, yes, if a spiritual leader flushes said toilet and no one else is around to hear it, it still made a noise. This also is truth.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 08:26 PM
Agreed about truth not being subjective. So, what scripture did God use to reveal this to you? And what exactly about it was sin? Would it have been sin had it never been discovered?

I wasn't aware that God only revealed himself through scripture. When I pray and I ask God to help me to understand something or to help me to see if something is not of him, I do not get a Biblical verse, but a strong sense of right or wrong usually accompanied by a very strong physical reaction. Almost a spiritual punch in the gut if you will.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 08:27 PM
Also, yes, if a spiritual leader flushes said toilet and no one else is around to hear it, it still made a noise. This also is truth.

That totally made me LOL!

Matthew 12:21
Nov 7th 2007, 08:30 PM
I can only ask you to read my posts a little more carefully and thoughtfully. I can't make you do it.
I didn't say owning a $23,000 dollar toilet in and of itself is a sin.
In fact, I never used the word sin at all.
I hope I will not have to type this out a fourth time:
Using the donated money of giving christians to your ministry for the purchase of a $23,000 toilet for yourself is an irresponsible use of those donations. It is also gross excess.
This is truth.
Also, yes, if a spiritual leader flushes said toilet and no one else is around to hear it, it still made a noise. This also is truth.

Why oh why isn't your rep turned on? :rofl:

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:31 PM
I wasn't aware that God only revealed himself through scripture. When I pray and I ask God to help me to understand something or to help me to see if something is not of him, I do not get a Biblical verse, but a strong sense of right or wrong usually accompanied by a very strong physical reaction. Almost a spiritual punch in the gut if you will.


Me too!!!
I rarely run across another who describes the Holy Spirit in them the same!
May I send you a quick pm?

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:32 PM
Why oh why isn't your rep turned on? :rofl:
Maybe it needs batteries! What is a rep? I only have AA batteries, which does it take?

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 08:32 PM
Me too!!!
I rarely run across another who describes the Holy Spirit in them the same!
May I send you a quick pm?

You sure can. I am not entirely sure how to receive or open it though - LOL.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 08:37 PM
Accepted. Allow me to rephrase:

"Talking with positive intentions rarely..."

I think you're taking words way too literally, sir, and I am not of a mind to begin every statement with a disqualifier. Please try and keep things in context and avoid tangents by picking apart an entire thought to choose certain words to discourse over.

Gossip and slander had nothing to do with my polite and respectful request set forth only to avoid another getting frustrated and removing them self from the conversation. Taking it any other way is provoking by removing context, and I've no doubt your reading comprehension is on par with your ability to retort.

"Talking" should not be confused with "slander," "gossip," or any other hurtful arrow set forth in the power of speech. Talking is friendly discourse, even when such conversation centers around a disagreement of principles and ideals.

But I am sure you know this quite well. Just because I am the new guy doesn't provide license to quote me out of context, sir, and I'll appreciate it if we could avoid future misunderstandings and instead focus on the intent and positive attributes of one another's statements. Oh, and in saying that, I will take this time to state that I do find your posts very inspiring for the most part, and I am pleased to meet you - in a more formal manner, that is. I look forward to reading much more from you!

Didn't mean to offend you. The reason I quoted it was because in this thread, many are saying things against a person. Given what was being said, in the context of the thread, that words rarely hurt, I thought it reasonable to point out that words can indeed be harmful.

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:39 PM
You sure can. I am not entirely sure how to receive or open it though - LOL.

I believe if you go to the very top of page here and click on user cp, you can edit your settings to allow pm's.
It is set to off because I just tried to send you one and couldn't.
Unless maybe your cp is out of batteries like my rep.

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 08:41 PM
I can only ask you to read my posts a little more carefully and thoughtfully. I can't make you do it.
I didn't say owning a $23,000 dollar toilet in and of itself is a sin.
In fact, I never used the word sin at all.
I hope I will not have to type this out a fourth time:
Using the donated money of giving christians to your ministry for the purchase of a $23,000 toilet for yourself is an irresponsible use of those donations. It is also gross excess.
This is truth.
Also, yes, if a spiritual leader flushes said toilet and no one else is around to hear it, it still made a noise. This also is truth.

OK. I would think gross excess and not being a good steward would be sinful. But then again, moderation would have to be defined by the Lord himself for me to say another was not being in moderation.

The question then becomes is buying a $23,000 toilet wrong?

What I am getting at, is I think we all need to be more concerned for the sinner than we are the sin as well as being careful of making judgments without all the facts.


In other words, there is scripture that says our moderation should be known to all men. When we are not being moderate, we are out of line.

But it also says that if our brother is caught in a fault, we should be about restoration. Who on this thread is concerned for what the excess might do to Joyce Meyer? I see many concerned for those that she may have defrauded. But what of the one doing the defrauding?

She deserves our prayers far more than she deserves our judgments.

I<3Jesus
Nov 7th 2007, 08:42 PM
I believe if you go to the very top of page here and click on user cp, you can edit your settings to allow pm's.
It is set to off because I just tried to send you one and couldn't.
Unless maybe your cp is out of batteries like my rep.

Ah ha, I think I fixed it. I have to run an errand quick, so if I am idle for a bit I am not ignoring you. *hugs*

Brother Mark
Nov 7th 2007, 08:44 PM
I wasn't aware that God only revealed himself through scripture. When I pray and I ask God to help me to understand something or to help me to see if something is not of him, I do not get a Biblical verse, but a strong sense of right or wrong usually accompanied by a very strong physical reaction. Almost a spiritual punch in the gut if you will.

That I understand. But if we are going to call her out on it, we need to be able to back it up with scripture. Otherwise, we are playing Holy Spirit for her. Then we go around preaching this is wrong, with no biblical backing. Do you not see the danger in that?

awestruckchild
Nov 7th 2007, 08:49 PM
Once again, I think you may have missed one or more of my posts.
In one of them, I laid out my exact feeling in heart concerning Meyers and these accusations and I expressed my hearts wish concerning them.

I have no problem, I guess, with YOU taking my phrases of "irresponsibility" and "gross excess" and qualifying or considering them to be sin. I just didn't state it that way.

diffangle
Nov 7th 2007, 10:27 PM
Once again, we aren't connecting and you fail to see my point.
It is irresponsible for a spiritual leader to take funds acquired by donation from giving christians and buy a $23,000 dollar toilet with them for him or her self
This is truth. This the Holy Spirit has shown me. Truth is not subjective.


Agreed about truth not being subjective. So, what scripture did God use to reveal this to you? And what exactly about it was sin? Would it have been sin had it never been discovered?


The question then becomes is buying a $23,000 toilet wrong?

When you can buy a perfectly good toilet for around $300 it seems a little wrong for a spiritual leader to spend $23,000 on one, especially from donated money meant for the ministry.

Mat 21:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=21&verse=12&version=kjv#12)¶And Yahuhsua went into the temple of YHWH, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Mat 21:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=21&verse=13&version=kjv#13)And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

kayte
Nov 7th 2007, 10:53 PM
I think everyone has had their say here and this would be a good place to end. This one has been spun in as many circles as it can go until the investigation comes out with the results. :)