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Keene
Nov 6th 2007, 10:18 PM
I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.

AlainaJ
Nov 6th 2007, 10:27 PM
Good question:hmm:

I think we will all be like Christ.

1John.3 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5363153)


[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.Since in eternity there is no time....age won't exist. I know that is hard to think about- but heaven is beyond what we are capable of imagining.

Jesus also says after the resurection we shall be like the Angels- and angels are immortal they do not age.

Luke.20 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4728649)


[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.God Bless:)

cross crusader
Nov 7th 2007, 04:41 AM
I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.

we will not be the same. we will be perfect. Our soul is perfected, we will be polar opposites. We will kow just as we are known

CanuckMedic
Nov 7th 2007, 04:59 AM
Each person though will be unique, and so I imagine some of the traits of our old personalities will remain. A choir wouldn't sound good if everyone's voice was identical.

Soj
Nov 7th 2007, 05:15 AM
I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.These are deep questions and will not likely be answered in this life.:hmm:


What I do believe though is that the real you is not the body you see in the mirror, it is the soul that is within. The soul is your very seat of emotions, your character, your personality. It is your soul which is saved when you receive Jesus as your Saviour:
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Thus when your soul gets to heaven it will be the real you! I tend to think that our maturity in this life will be evident in heaven but I also know that God is going to do a makeover on us all so that we are like Him:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.



Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

These questions are both mysterious and exciting to think about and discuss, and there is one verse which has spoken to my heart time and time again when it comes to these matters, it declares that it hasn't even entered into our hearts what God has prepared for us in eternity!!
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

jeffweeder
Nov 7th 2007, 05:32 AM
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Wow, this can only mean that its better than what we could think it is..wow.


When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife?


I think so. God doesnt want to destroy our Character or personality
A scripture comes to mind ( a good thing ), where our works will follow us.

In the fathers house there are many dwelling places.

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2007, 02:20 PM
there is one verse which has spoken to my heart time and time again when it comes to these matters, it declares that it hasn't even entered into our hearts what God has prepared for us in eternity!!

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Amen! That's my favourite "heaven" verse too! Especially the KJV!!!!!
:pp:pp:pp

drew
Nov 7th 2007, 06:11 PM
Since in eternity there is no time....
I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?

drew
Nov 7th 2007, 06:20 PM
Some of my thoughts about the life to come that I suspect will arouse some discussion:

1. Heaven is nice, but you're not going to be there forever. Heaven, if you like, is the place where we "rest" until we are resurrected bodily and are granted eternal life on a remade and transformed earth. This is what the New Testament teaches (I can provide biblical support).

2. The idea that we will live out eternity as conscious immaterial "souls" is not in the Scriptures. At our final destination, a remade earth, we will be distinctly "embodied", just like Jesus was after he rose. Paul describes Jesus as the first-fruits and that, at his return, we will be raised bodily. I suggest that Greek ideas about disembodied souls have distorted the true Biblical picture of the life to come.

Pleroo
Nov 7th 2007, 06:22 PM
I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?

I'm going to jump in here, if I may. I don't know anything for certainty about this but here is something to consider. We are told that God is unchanging. Change relates to time, I believe, so perhaps it is possible to say that God is "outside of" time. Looked at from that perspective, and from the fact that we are told that we now have the Life of Christ in us, perhaps it is possible to say that we also, once our flesh dies and we are no longer bound to the physical world, will live in a spiritual realm which is "outside of time".

It's all beyond my intellectual grasp, frankly, but it is a theory I've heard put forth, and I think it may have some merit.

Semi-tortured
Nov 7th 2007, 06:25 PM
I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?


Im actually not convinced there is no time either. He speaks of everlasting life. Adam and Eve would have had that type of life had they not sinned, and they had time. The more I read the Bible, the more I'm starting to realize that heaven as we so often think of it will be this earth completely redone. We will have cities (see New Jerusalem). We will have duties. It's the Kingdom of Heaven. A kingdom is a place with a ruler and different people working at different levels. That doesn't mean there is no time. God created the original creation and said it was VERY GOOD. Time was a part of that, as were animals, as were plants. God is eternal which means His mind hasn't changed about the original creation being very good. I just think it's gonna be like creation one, before the fall with more people there at it's inception (the millions and millions of Christians). That's how I view it. God created the habitat, then the man. He created the habitat special for us. We wrecked it. He's gonna fix it along with us so we don't wreck it again, cause we totally would, even with all Christians and Jesus there in our presence, I still think we would screw it up without Him renewing our souls.

Pleroo
Nov 7th 2007, 06:27 PM
Some of my thoughts about the life to come that I suspect will arouse some discussion:

1. Heaven is nice, but you're not going to be there forever. Heaven, if you like, is the place where we "rest" until we are resurrected bodily and are granted eternal life on a remade and transformed earth. This is what the New Testament teaches (I can provide biblical support).

2. The idea that we will live out eternity as conscious immaterial "souls" is not in the Scriptures. At our final destination, a remade earth, we will be distinctly "embodied", just like Jesus was after he rose. Paul describes Jesus as the first-fruits and that, at his return, we will be raised bodily. I suggest that Greek ideas about disembodied souls have distorted the true Biblical picture of the life to come.

Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Could this mean that the "transformed earth" may be a spiritual one, which this physical [natural] world is only a shadow of?

BigB
Nov 7th 2007, 06:27 PM
I agree with Drew. This is just a guess or an opinion but I think we will care about time do to all the revelation prediction such as the 1000 years of peace. After all of revelation has come true who knows maybe time wont mater.

Semi-tortured
Nov 7th 2007, 06:41 PM
Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Could this mean that the "transformed earth" may be a spiritual one, which this physical [natural] world is only a shadow of?

The spiritual body is still a body though. It is not made of flesh and blood, but rather something else. I feel it will be like Jesus body after his rez. Different, glorified, but not flesh and blood. It obviously couldn't have been flesh and blood because he seemed to come and go as he pleased. He had holes in His body that weren't pouring out blood. And I do believe the earth will be different, but it will be a dwelling place with cities and places to go.

drew
Nov 7th 2007, 06:43 PM
Yes, but the bodies we will be raised with are spiritual bodies.
I think that to read "spiritual body" as a thing that is not "physical" is to not use the word "spiritual" as Paul does in other parts of 1 Corinthians 15 (if not elsewhere). For Paul, a "spiritual" body has arms, legs, a head, hands, etc. The risen Christ has a "spiritual" body and he obviously has hands, legs, a face, etc.

I do not have the time now, but later I will try to give the evidence that we should read "spiritual body" not as "free-floating disembodied entity" but rather as "transformed and perfected physical body".

rchivers
Nov 7th 2007, 06:44 PM
The spiritual body is still a body though. It is not made of flesh and blood, but rather something else. I feel it will be like Jesus body after his rez. Different, glorified, but not flesh and blood. It obviously couldn't have been flesh and blood because he seemed to come and go as he pleased. He had holes in His body that weren't pouring out blood. And I do believe the earth will be different, but it will be a dwelling place with cities and places to go.


Do you think his wounds were present in his new body just to prove he was the same person that was crucified? That would be a real bummer if our new "bodies" reflect the trauma we experienced in life.

Pleroo
Nov 7th 2007, 06:54 PM
I do not have the time now, but later I will try to give the evidence that we should read "spiritual body" not as "free-floating disembodied entity" but rather as "transformed and perfected physical body".

Show me what you've got. :)

Semi-tortured
Nov 7th 2007, 07:14 PM
Do you think his wounds were present in his new body just to prove he was the same person that was crucified? That would be a real bummer if our new "bodies" reflect the trauma we experienced in life.


Personally, I think the trauma Jesus suffered was in His new body because in heaven, those holes will be the most beautiful things in the place cause they made it possible for us to be there. Vanity will be gone as will sex, so looks won't be important. I think if someone's "trauma" was a result of something glorifying to God, it could still be with us. Granted, if I'm beheaded for Christ, I hope I don't have to carry around my melon for eternity. :lol:

drew
Nov 7th 2007, 09:39 PM
Show me what you've got. :)
I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

The analogies suggest otherwise.

Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?

Soj
Nov 7th 2007, 10:21 PM
I am going to politely disagree. I know of no scripture that suggests that there will be no time in the life to come. I think we get this idea from vague cultural sources and it is really not Biblical. Can you show me where the scriptures teach that in eternity, there will be no time?There is always the following scripture:

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I think it is generally accepted that eternity (the next life) is not bound by time limits. The timeline in the Bible when studied out is about 7000 years (4000 yrs before the cross and 3000 yrs after it, we are near the 6000 year mark), prior to this we have eternity past and after this we have eternity future.

Semi-tortured
Nov 7th 2007, 10:24 PM
I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

The analogies suggest otherwise.

Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?


I'm in agreement with you. The Bible says the creation groans. It's waiting to be glorified just as we are. I honestly think that the thought of people turning into these disembodied spirits that float around like a conscious cloud of something is detrimental to the church in bringin in new believers. The salvation message seems to be one of redemption for not only us, but all the creation. Some people have this idea of a bodyless spirit floating in heaven with a harp and singing praise music to God non-stop for all of eternity. How appealing is that for someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't care. Is that what Earth was originally? Is that the "very good" creation that God placed us in? There's no reason for a city like New Jerusalem if that's what happens. That city is going to be HUGE. It's almost the size of the entire eastern US. A city has roads, dwellings and other things.

How many people do you think could have been turned to follow Christ if they thought heaven was merely what we have here with no sin instead of becoming some disembodied vapor? It's the sin that has stolen this planet's beauty which is why it groans. It is sin that has made our flesh weak, which is why we need new bodies. I honestly believe we will be rezzed like Jesus was rezzed and live in a perfect paradise here on Earth. A renewed Earth.

Semi-tortured
Nov 7th 2007, 10:30 PM
There is always the following scripture:

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I think it is generally accepted that eternity (the next life) is not bound by time limits. The timeline in the Bible when studied out is about 7000 years (4000 yrs before the cross and 3000 yrs after it, we are near the 6000 year mark), prior to this we have eternity past and after this we have eternity future.


Yes. There shall be time no longer, but does that mean there will be no recognition of forward or backwards? I know our minds can't grasp that, and maybe that's why I believe there will be a form of time, just not the time we have. Deadlines will be gone. Aging and an end will be gone, but I do believe there will be some sort of way we are able to tell certain things. If I'm in heaven and I eat a piece of fruit and I chew it and enjoy it, will that be a memory to me? Will I be able to do things in heaven as soon as I feel like it and not have to wait? I walk through the gate of Jerusalem down the golden path. I obviously have to seperate the gate and the path with something or else there would be no point in having a city where we could come and go. We'd just be "around."

My brain is sore. :lol:

drew
Nov 8th 2007, 05:46 AM
There is always the following scripture:

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Here is this same verse in the NASB:

and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer

And now in the NIV

And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay

And now in Youngs Literal Translation

and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet

Clearly, none of these other translations give any implication of a "timeless" future as the KJV admittedly does.

Soj
Nov 8th 2007, 06:04 AM
Here is this same verse in the NASB:

And now in the NIV

And now in Youngs Literal Translation

Clearly, none of these other translations give any implication of a "timeless" future as the KJV admittedly does.So your point is what? :hmm:

jeffweeder
Nov 8th 2007, 09:57 AM
Im actually not convinced there is no time either. He speaks of everlasting life. Adam and Eve would have had that type of life had they not sinned, and they had time.

They were from the earth, and the earth was created a day at a time.
And there was evening and morning ,1 day ..2,3,4,5,6,7.

We are sown a natural body but raised a spirit body.

We are raised a Spirit body at the end of days.

Heaven and earth will pass awayyyy.......

The sun no longer shines, the moon doesnt give its light, the stars fall from the sky....the whole concept of time is disintergrated.

Jesus said I am with you always..Ill never leave you..nor forsake you.
How can he do this for every believer if he is bound by time.?

Soj
Nov 8th 2007, 10:28 AM
For the no-more-time advocates, here are some more scriptures to consider about time as we know it coming to an end. The Bible talks about these "last times", and the "fulness of times" when God will gather in one all things in Christ and finally destroy death (which we read about in Rev 20:14 after the 1000 reign of Christ on earth), and after this God is said to be "all in all" which is an interesting expression that strongly suggests a completeness:

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Realist1981
Nov 8th 2007, 10:51 AM
Yes. There shall be time no longer, but does that mean there will be no recognition of forward or backwards? I know our minds can't grasp that, and maybe that's why I believe there will be a form of time, just not the time we have. Deadlines will be gone. Aging and an end will be gone, but I do believe there will be some sort of way we are able to tell certain things. If I'm in heaven and I eat a piece of fruit and I chew it and enjoy it, will that be a memory to me? Will I be able to do things in heaven as soon as I feel like it and not have to wait? I walk through the gate of Jerusalem down the golden path. I obviously have to seperate the gate and the path with something or else there would be no point in having a city where we could come and go. We'd just be "around."

My brain is sore. :lol:

I got a big chuckle out of that my brain was sore too

Realist1981
Nov 8th 2007, 11:18 AM
I'm surprised nobody brought up Revelation 21:23

KJV


9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.




No Sun to shine it?



Our day is measured by the Sun if there is no need for the sun then Time as we no it in New Jerusalem must not be a 24 hour period.

I would also like to add that New Jerusalem comes out of Heaven down to Earth and we will reside there/here in some kind of physical body that is uncorruptable in a Revised Earth. If it were not so and if we merely float around as spirits on a cloud what was the point of John writing down all the physical stones, dimensions of the city, and the beauty of it if we weren't going to live there and what's the point of a ressurection

Semi-tortured
Nov 8th 2007, 03:56 PM
I think where I might be confusing people is in what the definition of time is. When we are talking days, weeks, months, etc I do believe those will be gone. What I mean is I think there will still be a recognition of us doing something in the past while in heaven and us planning to do something in the future.

I used the New Jerusalem as an example of that. Streets are something to be traveled upon. If I travel down a street, there is a "past" that I am leaving everytime I take a step and a "future" I move towards everytime I take a step. It may not be .5 seconds or what have you. I can see how our minds will be opened up to the concept of eternity and through that we no longer feel constricted by any form of time. Time becomes irrelevant, therefore it ceases to exist.

drew
Nov 8th 2007, 04:10 PM
So your point is what? :hmm:
My point is that there is at least a possibility that the KJV translation is misleading since it implies something entirely different than the three other translations do.

Semi-tortured
Nov 8th 2007, 04:39 PM
My point is that there is at least a possibility that the KJV translation is misleading since it implies something entirely different than the three other translations do.


Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms. :rofl:

drew
Nov 8th 2007, 04:43 PM
Oh boy. You may have just opened a can of King James sized worms. :rofl:
What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation? :D

Semi-tortured
Nov 8th 2007, 04:45 PM
What? You mean some people think the KJV is a superior translation? :D

:lol:

There are a few with that opinion.

Pleroo
Nov 8th 2007, 04:47 PM
I submit that the following text from 1 cor 15 shows that Paul thinks our "spiritual" bodies are indeed bodies and not "disembodied" spirits:

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The important point is that Paul is using a series of analogies to describe the difference between the present bodies we have and the ones we will get when resurrected. The key thing is, that in all these analogies, distinctions are drawn between things that are nevertheless all still "material" or "physical". Men, animals, and fish are all different kinds of physical bodies. The sun, moon, and stars, are still material bodies despite the fact that they are different kinds or types of material bodies.

If we take these analogies seriously, we see that Paul is not comparing a material body on the one hand to some kind of disembodied immaterial "thing" on the other - he is instead comparing bodies of one type to bodies of another type. I humbly suggest that people read 1 Corinthians 15 and as soon as they see the word "spiritual" as in "spiritual body", their "Plato goggles" kick in and they assume that Paul must be referring to some kind of disembodied state.

The analogies suggest otherwise.

Not to mention the argument that, as per Romans 8:18 and following plus stuff in Isaiah, it appears clear that God is going to redeem and transform creation, not do away with it. If this redeemed creation is not to be our home and if we are not to be physical bodies in it, what purpose does it serve?


I don't think of living in the spiritual as a "disembodied" state. The Word says we are sown a natural body but raised with a spiritual body. Just like a seed for a plant is nothing at all like the plant which comes forth, I think that our spiritual bodies will be so completely different, and gloriously so, than our physical bodies that we can't begin to imagine. And the new heaven and earth would then be comparable in that they are a spiritual heaven and earth beyond our capability of understanding. So, I agree with you that we won't be disembodied but I don't know that we can have any concept, really, of just what a spiritual body will be.

And if there is still "time" in the spiritual realm, I think it too will be transformed into something which we, as we are now, would find unrecognizable.

As a side note, I'm not sure how much we can look to all the Revelation passages which are being quoted to support a timeless existance as well as a physical existance. Revelation is symbolic of spiritual truths, so I think we need to look beyond the literal.

Of course, all of this is jmho and I won't be surprised if I'm proven wrong in the end. ;)

drew
Nov 8th 2007, 04:54 PM
We are sown a natural body but raised a spirit body.
Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.

And note what Paul says in 1 Cor 15:

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Christ was raised first and we know He had a body. We follow, and obviously we will have bodies. I really do not understand how this idea that we will be resurrected without being embodied can be made to work with that the Scriptures teach. People are listening to Greek Platonism and not the Scriptures, I humbly suggest.


The sun no longer shines, the moon doesnt give its light, the stars fall from the sky....the whole concept of time is disintergrated.
We need to understand a little history here. Jesus was born into a culture where such apocalyptic imagery was frequently used as imagery, as metaphor. Jesus is not speaking literally here, and we therefore cannot properly use this as an argument for the "timelessness" of the life to come. If you want support for my claim that there was a strong tradition of using such imagery in a metaphorical (non-literal) sense, I can try to provide it.

drew
Nov 8th 2007, 05:01 PM
While I do believe that there will indeed be "time" in our eternal home, I certainly also agree with those who have claimed that it will be "transformed" or "different" in some way from the time we now experience.

I suggest that we need to remember the theme of "continuity and discontinuity" in respect to the life to come. I suggest that we will discern connections to this present world in the life to come, even though it will be perfected.

Paul, I think, makes it clear that what we do now in this world for the kingdom is not in vain - the results of such work will, I suggest, will be manifested in the new world.

Pleroo
Nov 8th 2007, 05:05 PM
Yes, but I submit that the analogies in 1 Cor 15 show that Paul is still referring to a body. Besides, there can be no doubt that Jesus had a body - it was transformed, but it was still a body with legs and arms, etc.

Or was that simply the way that God allowed the disciples -- physical beings -- to perceive Him? He's very gracious throughout the history of His dealings with men to "stoop" to meet them in their phsyicality. Thus the incarnation. :) But His intent is not to allow us to stay there, but to raise us to Him.

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 08:28 AM
Hi Keene
Well so far only the Lord Jesus has received immortality - and he was still recognisable, and Paul says the resurrection body will be made like his resurrection body.

Phil3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1Co15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

The road to Emmaus mis-seeing of Jesus was because their eyes were "held" Luke says, not because he shape-shifted.


I had a question come up that I didn't really have an answer for. When a person dies, do they keep their personality that they had in life in the afterlife? Also, how about their maturity? I have a friend who died when she was 22. If I were to die today (32) and saw her in the afterlife, would she still have the maturity of a 22 year old? So there's a chance that seeing her again we'd almost be more like strangers because I grew up, matured, gleaned experience, whereas she stopped all that at 22.Just wondering what people's thoughts were on this and if there is anything in scripture that tells us about this.

Well, their "names" are written in the Book of Life must be more than just names if Christ is going to raise the dead one day. It probably means that "name" captured the whole identity. In fact I'm stuck how to say "identity" in Hebrew without using the word "name"... I'm sure there is a word, but can't think of it.

Some people take Job 33 to have a dual fulfillment relative to resurrection

Job 33:22 His soul draws near the pit,
and his life to those who bring death.
23 If there be for him an angel,
a mediator, one of the thousand,
to declare to man what is right for him,
24 and he is merciful to him, and says,
‘Deliver him from going down into the pit;
I have found a ransom;
25 let his flesh become fresh with youth;
let him return to the days of his youthful vigor’;

Which kind of makes sense - what Paul describes as an "incorruptible" body should be one in the physical prime - even if bearing, in Christ's case, Luke 24:39, marks of the nails.
God bless
Steven

daughter
Nov 13th 2007, 02:27 PM
He created the habitat special for us. We wrecked it. He's gonna fix it along with us so we don't wreck it again, cause we totally would, even with all Christians and Jesus there in our presence, I still think we would screw it up without Him renewing our souls.
Really good point, and I think scripturally supported. That is what the millenial reign is about... at the end of it we have final proof that man can't make it on his own... the devil is released, and despite living with saints past and present, in the presence of Jesus Himself, many still side with the devil. That's what I see the final battle as being about. Final proof to those who doubt that without cleaving to God we're doomed.