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Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2007, 12:35 PM
Acts 1: 9-11 tells us how Jesus was taken into heaven, and that he shall return the same way.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; And a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand Ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as Ye have seen him go into heaven.

In Daniel 7:13. Daniel saw one like the Son of man come with the clouds.
Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The following scriptures tell us of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven after the tribulation.
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming</SPAN> in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming</SPAN> in the clouds of heaven.

Revelation 1:7 tells us that every one shall see him.
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now have a look at 1 thessalonians 4:17 and see where we shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.

This is the same manner as when Christ was taken into heaven.

Has the prophecy changed that Christ will come in another manner, other than how he was taken?

jeffweeder
Nov 11th 2007, 10:08 PM
Very nice Firstfruits..........


Revelation 1:7 tells us that every one shall see him.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So does this mean all the dead are raised when he comes.?

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2007, 12:04 AM
Very nice Firstfruits..........

So does this mean all the dead are raised when he comes.?


The dead in Christ

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 12:50 AM
Hi guys,

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This verse does not say Jesus comes on the clouds, it says He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. The dead and the living meet Him in the clouds. Just like when the Lord left He went up into the clouds, the same is for us we will go up into the clouds and be with Him. They are going beyond the clouds to meet the Lord.

DeafPosttrib
Nov 12th 2007, 12:56 AM
The quiet dove,

Not always saved people shall be risen to see Christ's coming. Also, in John 5:28-29 telling us, at the hour comes(Christ descends), both saved and unsaved shall be rise out of graves to see His coming same, to judge them on the same day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2007, 03:20 AM
The quiet dove,

Not always saved people shall be risen to see Christ's coming. Also, in John 5:28-29 telling us, at the hour comes(Christ descends), both saved and unsaved shall be rise out of graves to see His coming same, to judge them on the same day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

That is true and I agree, but I also see a moment when the dead and alive in Christ only will meet Him in the air.

Act 1:11 who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven.

Jesus was seen, by believers, ascending to heaven, no thunder, no lightening, no earthquake, no unbelievers.

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 03:51 AM
but I also see a moment when the dead and alive in Christ only will meet Him in the air.

Act 1:11 who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into the heaven? This same Jesus who is taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the way you have seen Him going into Heaven.

Jesus was seen, by believers, ascending to heaven, no thunder, no lightening, no earthquake, no unbelievers.



Also Thess. says nothing about Jesus setting foot on the earth. He comes with a cloud.
The Second coming says He comes riding on a horse with an army following Him.

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 04:07 AM
Acts 1: 9-11 tells us how Jesus was taken into heaven, and that he shall return the same way.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; And a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand Ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as Ye have seen him go into heaven.

In Daniel 7:13. Daniel saw one like the Son of man come with the clouds.
Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The following scriptures tell us of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven after the tribulation.
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming</SPAN> in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming</SPAN> in the clouds of heaven.

Revelation 1:7 tells us that every one shall see him.
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now have a look at 1 thessalonians 4:17 and see where we shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.

This is the same manner as when Christ was taken into heaven.

Has the prophecy changed that Christ will come in another manner, other than how he was taken?
It is interesting in what all these verses say about clouds when in Revelation, it says Rev.19:11 And I saw HEAVEN OPENED, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wage war.
Obviously, the other verses do say clouds, but folks spiritualize Revelation, will they say the horses are symbolic for clouds? Sorry, it was just a thought.
Jesus and the army descending on clouds that look like horses? Ok so it is late! ;)
Actually, another interesting thing is that when He does and they do, the nations and kings go to make war with Him and His armies. The false prophet and the beast are thrown alive into the lake of fire and the rest are killed with the sword and all the birds were filled with their flesh. How is it that the dead are raised at this time while they are still being killed?

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2007, 05:15 AM
How is it that the dead are raised at this time while they are still being killed?

Exactly. Good question. And I don't understand how the saints, dead and living rise, who together rist to meet Christ, but at the same time see Him coming and come back with Him on white horses, all the same time.

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :rofl:

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 05:32 AM
I certainly don't want to make light of those who believe differently than I and I don't think He returns a thousand times, but how can so many different things describe the same thing, gathered from the four winds, the earth reaped by angels, the dead resurrected, Jesus coming back with clouds, Jesus coming back on a horse with armies following etc etc.
You know what I mean?

Wintermute
Nov 12th 2007, 05:51 AM
I certainly don't want to make light of those who believe differently than I and I don't think He returns a thousand times, but how can so many different things describe the same thing, gathered from the four winds, the earth reaped by angels, the dead resurrected, Jesus coming back with clouds, Jesus coming back on a horse with armies following etc etc.
You know what I mean?The clouds I believe are symbolic of angels. (God was surrounded by a cloud in the wilderness, but then read Deuteronomy 33:2). Elijah rides a fiery chariot (2 kings 2:11) and the angels in some places are described as horses and chariots of fire (2 Kings 6:17). So basically they are different ways of saying that God is coming with his angels. The righteous will be resurrected and taken up, but the wicked killed. The different accounts of the event fill in the whole picture.

I think the biggest split though is the description in some places of Christ touching down (Zech 14:4) and in others the righteous are taken up. So I think there are basically two comings.

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 09:14 AM
Exactly. Good question. And I don't understand how the saints, dead and living rise, who together rist to meet Christ, but at the same time see Him coming and come back with Him on white horses, all the same time.

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :rofl:

Hi quiet dove,

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :lol:

I thought that ws so funny too. :lol:
This is airway one to Jerusalem tower your heavenly highway seems to be blocked at the moment can you please redirect your traffic to use the earthly roads for the next millennium as we won't get the traffic up here cleared until then.
:monkeyd:

The thing you don't understand is Christ comes for the dead and living church at the same time. The dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This catching up is different to the Lord's return, they are two seperate events.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When the Lord returns He will come on His white charger with His angels and the church, The Lord defeats the Beast and the false prophet with the sword that proceeds out of His mouth and kills those who are wicked, and places them in hades until the time of judgment. Satan is bound for 1000yrs.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 09:23 AM
Very nice Firstfruits..........



So does this mean all the dead are raised when he comes.?

According to Revelation 1:7 it does state that every eye shall see him, including those that pierced him; and all kindreds and tongues shall wail because of him.

Also St John 5:28. Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those that are alive and remain are not caught up until when Christ comes.

And also revelation 11:18. at the seventh trumpet. Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, And thy wrath is come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, And to the saints, And them that fear thy name, small And great; And shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 09:24 AM
The dead in Christ

Revelation 1:7 it is written that every eye shall see him, not only those that believe.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 09:42 AM
Hi guys,

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This verse does not say Jesus comes on the clouds, it says He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. The dead and the living meet Him in the clouds. Just like when the Lord left He went up into the clouds, the same is for us we will go up into the clouds and be with Him. They are going beyond the clouds to meet the Lord.

According to Acts 1:11. there is only one return of Christ. and he shall return in the clouds according to the prophecy. Daniel 7:13.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Do you believe the prophecy?

ShirleyFord
Nov 12th 2007, 09:43 AM
The thing you don't understand is Christ comes for the dead and living church at the same time. The dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This catching up is different to the Lord's return, they are two seperate events.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.



The Ascension of Christ From Earth to Heaven

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.


Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The Descension of Christ From Heaven to Earth

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.



Shirley

jeffweeder
Nov 12th 2007, 09:50 AM
This catching up is different to the Lord's return, they are two seperate events.

But Jesus said his actual coming would be to recieve us to himself.
He never told us about a time that he would come back secretly for us and then come visibly to the world. He is refering to the end of the age no doubt, when he says that heaven and earth will pass away when it happens.
He said , dont be mistakened...in any way, when I come , lightening will flash from one end of the earthy to the other....The flash they see in the Northern hemisphere, will be seen seconds after in the southern hemisphere.
It will be an unmistakable day....just like it was in Noahs day.
The sun will no longer be shining and the moon abashed, Stars will be falling , and the heavens will roll up like the scroll of Isiah read by an unbeliever.


Dizzy.
When the Lord returns He will come on His white charger with His angels and the church, The Lord defeats the Beast and the false prophet with the sword that proceeds out of His mouth and kills those who are wicked, and places them in hades until the time of judgment. Satan is bound for 1000yrs.


Jesus Christ
"The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38 and the fielld is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end[24][Or consummation ] of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all[26][Or everything that is offensive ] stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.


You say that the sword that comes out of his mouth destroys them...
This is correct, but he said that he has already spoken that word and it will Judge them the last day.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 09:54 AM
It is interesting in what all these verses say about clouds when in Revelation, it says Rev.19:11 And I saw HEAVEN OPENED, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wage war.
Obviously, the other verses do say clouds, but folks spiritualize Revelation, will they say the horses are symbolic for clouds? Sorry, it was just a thought.
Jesus and the army descending on clouds that look like horses? Ok so it is late! ;)
Actually, another interesting thing is that when He does and they do, the nations and kings go to make war with Him and His armies. The false prophet and the beast are thrown alive into the lake of fire and the rest are killed with the sword and all the birds were filled with their flesh. How is it that the dead are raised at this time while they are still being killed?

With regards to Revelation 1:7. Why will all kindreds of the earth wail because of him?

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 09:58 AM
Also Thess. says nothing about Jesus setting foot on the earth. He comes with a cloud.
The Second coming says He comes riding on a horse with an army following Him.

May I ask what setting foot on this earth has to do with Christ coming?

enarchay
Nov 12th 2007, 09:59 AM
In Daniel 7:13. Daniel saw one like the Son of man come with the clouds. Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. This is an upward coming to the Ancient of Days, i.e. Jesus' ascension.


Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Upward coming to the Ancient of Days (and perhaps including a downward coming against Jerusalem in judgment).


Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62)
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming</SPAN> in the clouds of heaven.Upward coming.


1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.N.T. Wright interprets the imperial language of parousia, probably rightly (against Andrew Perriman), to refer to Jesus' royal appearance to the Earth from the sky where the saints meet him, but return back to Earth to institute God's Kingdom on Earth.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 10:09 AM
Exactly. Good question. And I don't understand how the saints, dead and living rise, who together rist to meet Christ, but at the same time see Him coming and come back with Him on white horses, all the same time.

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :rofl:


In the twinkling of an eye!!!!!!!! We shall all be changed. at the last trumpet.

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Soj
Nov 12th 2007, 10:10 AM
According to Acts 1:11. there is only one return of Christ. and he shall return in the clouds according to the prophecy. Daniel 7:13.

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Do you believe the prophecy?You are right, there is only one Second Advent of Jesus Christ to this earth, but 1 Thess 4:17 is the odd verse out in your list and doesn't refer to this future event but is the famous account of the Rapture or Resurrection of the Church. It goes hand in hand with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Of course, not all Christians believe this or even know this.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 10:18 AM
The clouds I believe are symbolic of angels. (God was surrounded by a cloud in the wilderness, but then read Deuteronomy 33:2). Elijah rides a fiery chariot (2 kings 2:11) and the angels in some places are described as horses and chariots of fire (2 Kings 6:17). So basically they are different ways of saying that God is coming with his angels. The righteous will be resurrected and taken up, but the wicked killed. The different accounts of the event fill in the whole picture.

I think the biggest split though is the description in some places of Christ touching down (Zech 14:4) and in others the righteous are taken up. So I think there are basically two comings.

Does Revelation 1:7. happen twice since every eye shall see him, not only the saved?

ShirleyFord
Nov 12th 2007, 10:22 AM
Upward coming to the Ancient of Days (and perhaps including a downward coming against Jerusalem in judgment).

Jesus ascended up to His Father, the Ancient of Days, in heaven. But Jesus didn't descend down to earth in 70 AD.

The angel didn't mention but the One return of Christ in Acts 1 at His ascension from earth to heaven.

"this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."


Shirley

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 10:29 AM
Hi quiet dove,

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :lol:

I thought that ws so funny too. :lol:
This is airway one to Jerusalem tower your heavenly highway seems to be blocked at the moment can you please redirect your traffic to use the earthly roads for the next millennium as we won't get the traffic up here cleared until then.
:monkeyd:

The thing you don't understand is Christ comes for the dead and living church at the same time. The dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This catching up is different to the Lord's return, they are two seperate events.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When the Lord returns He will come on His white charger with His angels and the church, The Lord defeats the Beast and the false prophet with the sword that proceeds out of His mouth and kills those who are wicked, and places them in hades until the time of judgment. Satan is bound for 1000yrs.

There is one verse that needs to be added here.
1 Thess 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 10:38 AM
You are right, there is only one Second Coming of Jesus Christ to this earth, but 1 Thess 4:17 is the odd verse out in your list and doesn't refer to this future event but is the famous account of the Rapture or Resurrection of the Church. It goes hand in hand with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Of course, not all Christians believe this or even know this.

Jesus has promised that according to the will of God the Father those that believe in him will be raised at the last day, this must also be at the last trumpet, so which scripture referes to the last trumpet when the dead are raised?

Soj
Nov 12th 2007, 11:08 AM
Jesus has promised that according to the will of God the Father those that believe in him will be raised at the last day, this must also be at the last trumpet, so which scripture referes to the last trumpet when the dead are raised?Neither of the two Rapture proof texts of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cori 15 say it is the "last trumpet", they say the "last trump" of a trumpet, which does not mean it is the last trumpet. You are trying to fit these verses in with the angel sounding the seventh trumpet (last one) in Revelation 11:15 which is at the end of the Tribulation. Study the verses out further and you will find some significant differences such as in Revelation it's an angel sounding it, but in 1 Thess it's the VOICE of the archangel WITH the "trump of God." Do you know what the trump of God is?

The doctrinal implication of our different beliefs here is that one of us thinks the Church is going to be raptured out of this earth and taken to heaven before the Tribulation begins and the other doesn't. In other words, I'm a pre-tribber and you ain't! ;)

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 01:00 PM
There is one verse that needs to be added here.
1 Thess 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thess 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Paul wrote this to the thessalonians because they were worried about those who had passed on that they would miss the resurrection. This made them sorrowful to think they would not see their loved ones in heaven. They will rise before us at the coming of our Lord. his is not to be confused with the day of the Lord.

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 01:09 PM
Exactly. Good question. And I don't understand how the saints, dead and living rise, who together rist to meet Christ, but at the same time see Him coming and come back with Him on white horses, all the same time.

People are going to be flying around, coming and going everywhere out there. :rofl:


The church has already left the earth before the 7yr tribulation and have gone to heaven,they return with the Lord at the end of the tribulation. Those who see them coming are the saints who have not been killed in the tribulation period and those wicked people on the earth.

Why do people have to make this hard to understand when it is really so simple.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 02:02 PM
Paul wrote this to the thessalonians because they were worried about those who had passed on that they would miss the resurrection. This made them sorrowful to think they would not see their loved ones in heaven. They will rise before us at the coming of our Lord. his is not to be confused with the day of the Lord.

As you have said they rise at the coming of the Lord, which is at the last trumpet/ at the last day.

Since his coming and the last day, and the last trumpet are the same, and the return of Christ is with the clouds, which as it is written is after the tribulation, where in the scriptures is there another coming of Christ?

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 04:29 PM
The clouds I believe are symbolic of angels. (God was surrounded by a cloud in the wilderness, but then read Deuteronomy 33:2). .

Totally possible

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 04:37 PM
May I ask what setting foot on this earth has to do with Christ coming?
Because Zech 14:4 says In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 04:41 PM
The clouds I believe are symbolic of angels. (God was surrounded by a cloud in the wilderness, but then read Deuteronomy 33:2). Elijah rides a fiery chariot (2 kings 2:11) and the angels in some places are described as horses and chariots of fire (2 Kings 6:17). So basically they are different ways of saying that God is coming with his angels. The righteous will be resurrected and taken up, but the wicked killed. The different accounts of the event fill in the whole picture.

I think the biggest split though is the description in some places of Christ touching down (Zech 14:4) and in others the righteous are taken up. So I think there are basically two comings.

There was no mention of them seeing angels, other than the two men that told them how Christ would return. Niether of the scriptures state otherwise.

ross3421
Nov 12th 2007, 04:45 PM
The clouds I believe are symbolic of angels.

Correct. Now one step deeper......Who are the angels? They are spirits and after we die we are spirits minus this flesh........

Get my point.

Christ coming with angels or all his saints is not a contradiction because at that point they are one the same. Angels are spirits apart from a coruptable habitation. However angels "holy spirits" do for a point in time become one in those which call on the name of the Lord.


Mark.

Firstfruits
Nov 12th 2007, 04:45 PM
Because Zech 14:4 says In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Would this be on the new earth, the new Jerusalem, which shall come after the first heaven and earth are passed away when Christ comes?

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 04:49 PM
Actually, many of us do agree about some endtime events such as what happens at the 7th trumpet, but the difference is that several believe something different happens to the Church as it is being called out today before the events begin taking place. We all look at the events now as if we are living because we are living and we're all not sure of where we are presently in how the Lord looks at the end of the age. Sorry, don't know if that made sense. Some look at the events of the 7th trumpet happening on earth, while all those who are the Church are already with Jesus.

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 04:53 PM
Would this be on the new earth, the new Jerusalem, which shall come after the first heaven and earth are passed away when Christ comes?
Not on the new earth, for this happens during a battle against Jerusalem.
I would say somewhere around the time of what is known as Armageddon.

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 05:03 PM
speaking of clouds, this reminds me of the passage in Hebrews, being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. If they are clothed in white then so many would maybe look like clouds.

My heart's Desire
Nov 12th 2007, 05:12 PM
The vision in the first chapter of Ezekiel always fasinates me. There was a wind that brought a great cloud with fire flashing forth and a bright light around it with something like glowing metal in the middle of it. I try to envision maybe a clear day and a cloud like this coming from the north.
Inside the cloud are 4 living beings, with wheels.
Over the heads of the living beings were something like an expanse, and it was spread out over their heads. Above the expanse, over their heads was something like a throne and a figure on the throne. The radiance was like the "glory of the Lord". Anyway, when the wheels moved the beings went wherever the wheels went. I can't help but see the entire expanse, the throne etc, which are above the beings with wheels moving whenever the wheels move.

quiet dove
Nov 12th 2007, 06:00 PM
The church has already left the earth before the 7yr tribulation and have gone to heaven,they return with the Lord at the end of the tribulation. Those who see them coming are the saints who have not been killed in the tribulation period and those wicked people on the earth.

Why do people have to make this hard to understand when it is really so simple.


The thing you don't understand is Christ comes for the dead and living church at the same time. The dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This catching up is different to the Lord's return, they are two seperate events.

I'm with ya on this sister. Dont find it complicated and it fills my soul with joy at the awesome glory and mercy of our Lord, Savior and King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DIZZY
Nov 12th 2007, 10:18 PM
I'm with ya on this sister. Dont find it complicated and it fills my soul with joy at the awesome glory and mercy of our Lord, Savior and King!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi quiet Dove,

Mine toooooooooooooo:pp:hug:

enarchay
Nov 12th 2007, 10:21 PM
Jesus ascended up to His Father, the Ancient of Days, in heaven. But Jesus didn't descend down to earth in 70 AD.

The angel didn't mention but the One return of Christ in Acts 1 at His ascension from earth to heaven.

The coming with the clouds may not necessarily imply a downward coming, but an upward ascent. If it does represent a downward descent, it is the man Jesus addresses that will witness him, which would link it with 70 C.E.

Allegra
Nov 13th 2007, 01:14 AM
Acts 1: 9-11 tells us how Jesus was taken into heaven, and that he shall return the same way.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; And a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand Ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as Ye have seen him go into heaven.

In Daniel 7:13. Daniel saw one like the Son of man come with the clouds.
Dan 7:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The following scriptures tell us of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven after the tribulation.
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.
Mt 26:64 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mk 13:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming</SPAN> in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mk 14:62 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=62) And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming</SPAN> in the clouds of heaven.

Revelation 1:7 tells us that every one shall see him.
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now have a look at 1 thessalonians 4:17 and see where we shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.

This is the same manner as when Christ was taken into heaven.

Has the prophecy changed that Christ will come in another manner, other than how he was taken?
God's coming in the clouds of heaven is a symbolic way of speaking of His presence, judgment, & salvation. All through Scripture God was "coming on clouds" in salvation of His people & judgment of His enemies
Presence clouds:
Exodus 16:10
10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
Exodus19:9
9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Leviticus 16:2
2And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
Numbers 11:25
25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
Salvation clouds:
Psalm 18:9-12
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightning.

Judgment clouds:

Isaiah 19:1
1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
Nahum 1:3
3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Jesus was was using the apocalyptic language of the prophets to identify Himself as the Messiah:
Mark 14:62
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
All about hope:
Romans 8:23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.(salvation clouds)

Rev.1:7

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Has the prophecy changed, you ask? No. nothing written about that!

Jude 1:14-15
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Soj
Nov 13th 2007, 07:57 AM
God's coming in the clouds of heaven is a symbolic way of speaking of His presence, judgment, & salvation.We are discussing the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, and this huge future event is not symbolic but literal!

The following scripture cannot possibly be symbolic, as they were watching him as he was taken up in a cloud, and then they were told that he would return in the same way, in a cloud:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.




All through Scripture God was "coming on clouds" in salvation of His people & judgment of His enemiesThe prophecies of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are all throughout scripture, yes.


Presence clouds:
Exodus 16:10
10And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.
Exodus19:9
9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Leviticus 16:2
2And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.The above scriptures have nothing to do with the return of Jesus Christ in the clouds, but are a reference to Jehovah God in the Old Testament when He showed his glory to Israel. Only Moses spoke directly with Him while the rest of the people saw the cloud, which was enough for them to believe God because the cloud was the sign they required!

Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.


Salvation clouds:
Psalm 18:9-12
9 He parted the heavens and came down;
dark clouds were under his feet.
10 He mounted the cherubim and flew;
he soared on the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—
the dark rain clouds of the sky.
12 Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced,
with hailstones and bolts of lightning.This is the Second Coming.


Judgment clouds:

Isaiah 19:1
1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
Nahum 1:3
3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Jesus was was using the apocalyptic language of the prophets to identify Himself as the Messiah:
Mark 14:62
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
All about hope:
Romans 8:23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.(salvation clouds)

Rev.1:7

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Has the prophecy changed, you ask? No. nothing written about that!

Jude 1:14-15
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.Most of those scriptures concern the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ - that's what they are written about. You are just making spiritual application from the verses and ignoring the doctrinal teachings, probably because they don't fit in with your doctrine.

The literal interpretation of the Lord "coming in the clouds", as referring to the Second Coming and return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth, has been a fundamental Christian belief since the first century when Jesus ascended into heaven in the sight of those disciples, the scriptures themselves testify of this.

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 08:44 AM
I think the biggest split though is the description in some places of Christ touching down (Zech 14:4) and in others the righteous are taken up. So I think there are basically two comings.

Hi Wintermute
There's not a single verse which says "taken back to heaven", there's only 1Thess4:17 which says (in Greek) "go to welcome him in the air" That verb is only used - such as the brethren in Rome welcoming Paul - when they go out to the city gates to greet someone.

So there's no contradiction - all the verses speak of a touchdown, in Jerusalem.

Acts 1:9 Mt Olives -> Air -> Clouds -> Heaven,
Acts 1:11 Heaven -> Clouds -> Air -> Mt Olives

There is no rapture, except to Jerusalem.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 08:54 AM
Not on the new earth, for this happens during a battle against Jerusalem.
I would say somewhere around the time of what is known as Armageddon.

Then that as it is written is when the present heaven and earth are dissolved.

Is 51:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=51&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all The inhabitants Thereof are dissolved: I bear up The pillars of it. Selah.

Nahum 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=34&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) The mountains quake at him, and The hills melt, and The earth is burned at his presence, yea, The world, and all that dwell Therein.

Zech 14:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Soj
Nov 13th 2007, 09:52 AM
Hi Wintermute
There's not a single verse which says "taken back to heaven", there's only 1Thess4:17 which says (in Greek) "go to welcome him in the air" That verb is only used - such as the brethren in Rome welcoming Paul - when they go out to the city gates to greet someone.Steven, despite what you interpret in the Greek, the English in the passage is plain and needs no clarification:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" so the saints WILL be airborne!


I not only believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church saints, but also an mid-tribulation rapture of Tribulation saints, and the account of this in Rev 11 DOES say that they are taken to heaven!

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


There will be two future raptures of God's saints where God takes them from this earth up to heaven. Enoch was a type of this:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Steven3
Nov 13th 2007, 10:52 AM
Hi Soj_NZ :)
Steven, despite what you interpret in the Greek, the English in the passage is plain and needs no clarification:Well it does need clarification because "meet" to English speakers means - "meet and go back with him" (destination heaven), wheras in Greek the verb means "meet and he comes back with us" (destination earth). If you don't believe me check it using Youngs.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It says "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" so the saints WILL be airborne!Well I don't think the angels will be delivering airline tickets to the four corners of the earth. We all agree that the gathering when Christ comes back will be airborne.

The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven", but unfortunately first there's the trivial matter of the ssshhhhhhh! don't mention the j word!! ;)

Take care
and God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 12:02 PM
Hi Soj_NZ :)Well it does need clarification because "meet" to English speakers means - "meet and go back with him" (destination heaven), wheras in Greek the verb means "meet and he comes back with us" (destination earth). If you don't believe me check it using Youngs.

Well I don't think the angels will be delivering airline tickets to the four corners of the earth. We all agree that the gathering when Christ comes back will be airborne.

The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven", but unfortunately first there's the trivial matter of the ssshhhhhhh! don't mention the j word!! ;)

Take care
and God bless
Steven

The New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Is 60:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Rev 21:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Heb 12:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Does that answer you question?

ross3421
Nov 13th 2007, 02:24 PM
The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven",




No, They do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain.

Correction / addition to above statement......

The resurrected will meet the Lord in the air to be judged, now will this be in the literal heaven where the Lord is now? Good question. The following verse states perhaps initially as we see the Great White Throne in heaven but then heaven and earth pass paving the way for the new heaven and earth. Maybe this is why Paul states "in the air' and does not quantify actually "where" as it appear to be much transition taking place from old to new. Neverless, Christ returns to the Kingdom which was in heaven and will be then be on earth.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Ill just thrown in EZ 40 to show the same parallel........the eternal kingdom of God.

2In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.


Mark

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 03:28 PM
No, they do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain.

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Ill just thrown in EZ 40 to show the same parallel........the eternal kingdom of God.

2In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.


Mark

It is written that the new Jerusalem is not on this present earth because the present heaven and the present earth will be passed away.


Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Wintermute
Nov 13th 2007, 03:31 PM
No, they do not go back to heaven for heaven (kingdom of God) is coming down to earth where we shall reign forevermore on earth not heaven. They will meet in the air as the kingdom of God will be situated upon a high mountain. It is my view that at the first coming, the righteous are taken to Heaven, and the wicked destroyed. After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 04:19 PM
It is my view that at the first coming, the righteous are taken to Heaven, and the wicked destroyed. After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

Please explian what you mean by "Christs first coming" with the understanding that he only returns once?

ross3421
Nov 13th 2007, 04:21 PM
It is written that the new Jerusalem is not on this present earth because the present heaven and the present earth will be passed away.


I was refering to the time after this old heaven and earth are passed away?????? What would make you think I meant someting else?

Wintermute
Nov 13th 2007, 04:34 PM
Please explian what you mean by "Christs first coming" with the understanding that he only returns once?
Yeah, I shouldn't have said it that way. The first coming of Christ is when he came here as Man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Second coming is in clouds (with angels) and takes righteous up to Heaven; wicked are destroyed. Third coming is when Christ comes with the New Jerusalem and saints and touches down on Mount of Olives.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 04:42 PM
I was refering to the time after this old heaven and earth are passed away?????? What would make you think I meant someting else?

Just needed clarification, thanks.

Firstfruits
Nov 13th 2007, 04:44 PM
Yeah, I shouldn't have said it that way. The first coming of Christ is when he came here as Man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Second coming is in clouds (with angels) and takes righteous up to Heaven; wicked are destroyed. Third coming is when Christ comes with the New Jerusalem and saints and touches down on Mount of Olives.

What do you mean by a "third coming" again there is only on return.

ross3421
Nov 13th 2007, 04:48 PM
After the millennium, the New Jerusalem with the righteous come down from Heaven, Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives and the events of the early part of Revelation 20 take place. The new earth being after the millennium.

Ask yourself a couple of questions which should help in setting up a time table. In addition the answers should raised a concern about the millennium as being literal.

1. When are the righteous resurrected
2. When are the wicked resurrected.
3. When is the old heaven and earth destroyed.


All three occur on the last day, the Day of the Lord, Christ's second coming. For scripture states that this old earth and heaven are destroyed upon Christ's return thus the new earth must appear at this time as well not a 1000 years later. Also at this time is the resurrection whereby the dead in Christ (and the wicked) are raised and taken to the Kingdom and judged.



Mark

divaD
Nov 13th 2007, 05:02 PM
What do you mean by a "third coming" again there is only on return.


actually, if one were to get techinical, Christ's second coming was at His ressurrection. Did He not come back then? Technically then, when He returns again, it will be His third coming. I'm inclined to believe that He's only coming back one more time, not 2 or 3 times, nor in secret. Technically speaking, this would be His 3rd and final coming.

Allegra
Nov 13th 2007, 06:03 PM
We are discussing the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, and this huge future event is not symbolic but literal!

The following scripture cannot possibly be symbolic, as they were watching him as he was taken up in a cloud, and then they were told that he would return in the same way, in a cloud:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



The prophecies of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are all throughout scripture, yes.

The above scriptures have nothing to do with the return of Jesus Christ in the clouds, but are a reference to Jehovah God in the Old Testament when He showed his glory to Israel. Only Moses spoke directly with Him while the rest of the people saw the cloud, which was enough for them to believe God because the cloud was the sign they required!

Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

This is the Second Coming.

Most of those scriptures concern the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ - that's what they are written about. You are just making spiritual application from the verses and ignoring the doctrinal teachings, probably because they don't fit in with your doctrine.

The literal interpretation of the Lord "coming in the clouds", as referring to the Second Coming and return of the Lord Jesus Christ to this earth, has been a fundamental Christian belief since the first century when Jesus ascended into heaven in the sight of those disciples, the scriptures themselves testify of this.
Oh no, no, no. I'm not mixing up spiritual vs. physical dichotomy here.
My doctrine? Oh I see, your doctrine is the only & final one. Where is the love and patience for each other. If we devour one another, what example do we show to unbelievers?
There are many of the Faith that believe Jesus came in judgment in 70AD.
And for those then-it would be a second time.
Hebrews 9:28
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Maybe your doctrine depends on how you interpret a second time in context of the verse.
The verses I quoted were to give examples of how God presents Himself to His people all throughout Scripture. That was responding to the O.P.
Malachi 3:6
6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
This was my basis to show that the prophecy has not changed.
You picked up on a doctrine. That was not my focus.
I can appreciate the orthodoxy in your statements. I too believe Christ is returning in the classical sense. I think I'm going "home" to Him before that, but that's alright too.
God Bless You and keep the Faith.:)
Yours truly in Christ.

Soj
Nov 13th 2007, 08:37 PM
This was my basis to show that the prophecy has not changed. You picked up on a doctrine. That was not my focus.
I can appreciate the orthodoxy in your statements. I too believe Christ is returning in the classical sense. I think I'm going "home" to Him before that, but that's alright too.
God Bless You and keep the Faith.:)
Yours truly in Christ.Please accept my apology, I totally misunderstood the focus of your post, when you started it off saying that it's symbolic I wrongly concluded that you denied the literal Second Coming.

Yours in Christ. :)

Allegra
Nov 13th 2007, 08:55 PM
Please accept my apology, I totally misunderstood the focus of your post, when you started it off saying that it's symbolic I wrongly concluded that you denied the literal Second Coming.

Yours in Christ. :)
Yes, I see. I should have used a better word instead of "symbolic". Something like "paradigmatic" (an example or model of)
Apology accepted.:)

My heart's Desire
Nov 14th 2007, 04:39 AM
Then that as it is written is when the present heaven and earth are dissolved.

Is 51:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=51&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all The inhabitants Thereof are dissolved: I bear up The pillars of it. Selah.

Nahum 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=34&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) The mountains quake at him, and The hills melt, and The earth is burned at his presence, yea, The world, and all that dwell Therein.

Zech 14:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Actually, in Zech 14:16 it continues after that :
Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jrusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
So, it possibly begins the Millennial Kingdom after Armageddon.

My heart's Desire
Nov 14th 2007, 05:01 AM
According to Revelation 1:7 it does state that every eye shall see him, including those that pierced him; and all kindreds and tongues shall wail because of him.

Also St John 5:28. Jn 5:28 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Jn 5:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; And they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those that are alive and remain are not caught up until when Christ comes.

.
Ah, but there is the difference. At the rapture of the church, those dead in the church go before those who in the church are alive. In the Thess verse it doesn't describe the taking up of those who have done evil as the other verse you quote say.

Also, in that verse about they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. To me that is a curious verse considering that before salvation "there is none that does good, no not one. I'm just saying, why does it say as it does as we all know it is not the good or evil that we do that gets anything, it is if we have believed in Jesus for salvation that saves and if we don't believe Jesus, it is not the evil that condemns us but our lack of faith in Jesus that condemns.

Right before that in verse 21 says For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

And then verse 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, AN HOUR IS COMING AND NOW IS, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Jesus said the hour is coming and NOW IS...my bible notes also refer this chapter to resurrections, but I think that Jesus was saying that then was the time that those who were spiritually dead were hearing His voice and believed and lived.

Just as it is illustrated in the lost son in Luke 15:24 it reads, for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate. NASB

DIZZY
Nov 14th 2007, 07:14 AM
As you have said they rise at the coming of the Lord, which is at the last trumpet/ at the last day.

Since his coming and the last day, and the last trumpet are the same, and the return of Christ is with the clouds, which as it is written is after the tribulation, where in the scriptures is there another coming of Christ?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=4&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=52&version=50&context=verse)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Okay you say that we rise at the last trumpet, the trumpet blown above is not the last trumpet that is in Rev 11:15.
The Lord shouts and we hear him the dead rise first and we who are alive rise to meet Him in the clouds. The trumpet is in the Lords hand not an angels


Matthew 24:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

This is the Day of the Lord when He begins to reign on the earth after the tribulation.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

This is not the trumpet used in 1 Thes and 1 Cor because an angel is blowing this trumpet to announce the Lord is now reigning.

Steven3
Nov 14th 2007, 08:12 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)




The question is where Jesus goes next after heaven->clouds->air-> ???. A lot of people want the answer to be "back to heaven", but unfortunately first there's the trivial matter of the ssshhhhhhh! don't mention the j word!! ;)

Take care
and God bless
Steven

The New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Is 60:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Rev 21:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Heb 12:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Does that answer you question?
Not really no :). I was kind of looking for verses that say where the living and dead are gathered to when Christ returns.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 14th 2007, 09:10 AM
actually, if one were to get techinical, Christ's second coming was at His ressurrection. Did He not come back then? Technically then, when He returns again, it will be His third coming. I'm inclined to believe that He's only coming back one more time, not 2 or 3 times, nor in secret. Technically speaking, this would be His 3rd and final coming.

Technically understood, thanks ;)

DIZZY
Nov 14th 2007, 10:11 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)
Not really no :). I was kind of looking for verses that say where the living and dead are gathered to when Christ returns.
God bless
Steven

When Christ returns the earth becomes His kingdom those that belong in His kingdom stay there and enter Gods rest.

Hebrews 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.


Those who do not belong are taken away and thrown into the furnace.

Matthew 13:41,42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=41&version=50&context=verse)
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=41&version=50&context=verse)
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Revelation 9:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.

I hope these verses help answer your question

Firstfruits
Nov 14th 2007, 01:05 PM
Hi Firstfruits :)
Not really no :). I was kind of looking for verses that say where the living and dead are gathered to when Christ returns.
God bless
Steven

Hope the following will be helpful to you.

Jn 7:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

Jn 14:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jn 17:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



Before that, there is another stage.

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Steven3
Nov 14th 2007, 01:40 PM
Hi Firstfruits :)

Hope the following will be helpful to you.

Jn 14:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Thanks. And yes, but where is Jesus exactly after he has come back? Do you think this means:

A. I come back (halfway), and receive you unto myself (up in heaven again)
B. I will come again (as I did before) and receive you unto myself (on earth)

I think it's B., because of Acts 1:11, and because of this:

John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our mansion with him.


Jn 17:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Again, same problem:

A. be with me where I am (in heaven)
B. be with me where I am (on earth)

and again I think it's B., because of this among other reasons:

John 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world

(...although actually both John 14 and 17 have more to do with the Comforter than with the rapture....)

Why would anyone want to go to heaven anyway? What's the point? :confused

In any case, to go back to the original point - 1Th4:17 cannot mean "meet (and go back up to heaven)", because the Greek verb means "meet (and welcome in)". Anyone can check it for themselves in Youngs.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 14th 2007, 02:30 PM
[quote=Steven3;1440444]Hi Firstfruits :)


Thanks. And yes, but where is Jesus exactly after he has come back? Do you think this means:

A. I come back (halfway), and receive you unto myself (up in heaven again)
B. I will come again (as I did before) and receive you unto myself (on earth)

I think it's B., because of Acts 1:11, and because of this:

John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our mansion with him.



Again, same problem:

A. be with me where I am (in heaven)
B. be with me where I am (on earth)

and again I think it's B., because of this among other reasons:

John 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world

(...although actually both John 14 and 17 have more to do with the Comforter than with the rapture....)

Why would anyone want to go to heaven anyway? What's the point? :confused

In any case, to go back to the original point - 1Th4:17 cannot mean "meet (and go back up to heaven)", because the Greek verb means "meet (and welcome in)". Anyone can check it for themselves in Youngs.
God bless
Steven[/quote

The following will hopefuly answer you question.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our mansion with him.

Steven3
Nov 15th 2007, 01:12 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)
John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our mansion with him.
Yes. This means God and Jesus coming down to earth, and the mansion being on earth - although it's talking about the Paraclete, not the Second Coming. Likewise "the pillar of the temple of my God" is a temple here now - the church, and moreso when Christ returns.


The important thing is that the rapture, gathering (by air, by angels) will be to Jerusalem:

Matt5:35 "Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King".
Matt23:37-39 "O Jerusalem ... see me again until"
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (said in Jerusalem, assumes Jerusalem is the centre of the earth).
Acts 1:11 "in like manner" - cf.
Zech 14:4 "his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives"

These verses confirm that the rapture (of living and dead) is by air to a destination on earth (for the living and dead to be judged).



Hi Dizzy

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:Good point. And relevant to Gehenna having been prepared and being outside Jerusalem, not "in the air".

Matt 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

This "left" and "right" is part Judaic association with the left/right hand but also assumes Christ standing facing Jerusalem outside the East Gate (through which Ezekiel prophecies the Prince entering)

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CNM08-Jerusalem.gif

Not that I take the symbolic elements literally, but it's part of the parable that Gehenna ("hell") is just outside Jerusalem, and the geography is relevant.

God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 15th 2007, 01:26 AM
...Good point. And relevant to Gehenna having been prepared and being outside Jerusalem, not "in the air".[/COLOR]

...Not that I take the symbolic elements literally, but it's part of the parable that Gehenna ("hell") is just outside Jerusalem, and the geography is relevant.

When Jesus announces to the wicked at that Day, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:41) will He be referring to a physical place “just outside Jerusalem”?

Steven3
Nov 15th 2007, 02:06 AM
Hi LH :)
When Jesus announces to the wicked at that Day, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:41) will He be referring to a physical place “just outside Jerusalem”?Well, the Lord did refer to a physical place just outside Jerusalem in the other Gehenna verses, there's no denying that, even though Gehenna is more than just a place, it is an event:

Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to the Valley of Hinnom, to the unquenchable fire.

But since Matt 25:41 is a parable of a Shepherd-Judge speaking to ruminant mammals, I obviously wouldn't take it literally no. Nor would I need to, the NT is overflowing with proof verses for these events:

1. a physical and visible return of Christ.
2. a resurrection of the dead.
3. a rapture of the living (to Jerusalem)
4. a judgment of the living and dead.

Out of interest, seeing as 1-3 are the thread subject, and we're now discussing 4, if you don't mind me asking, so I don't assume anything, how many of those 1-4, do you believe in?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 15th 2007, 02:37 AM
Hi LH :)Well, the Lord did refer to a physical place just outside Jerusalem in the other Gehenna verses, there's no denying that, even though Gehenna is more than just a place, it is an event:

Is the Gehenna “just outside Jerusalem” the same place as the Gehenna described by the Lord as the “eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels”? Do you beleive the devil, aka, Satan is a spiritual being created by God?


Out of interest, seeing as 1-3 are the thread subject, and we're now discussing 4, if you don't mind me asking, so I don't assume anything, how many of those 1-4, do you believe in?Three of the four are based on Scripture and one without biblical support.

Steven3
Nov 15th 2007, 03:08 AM
Hi LH :)
Is the Gehenna “just outside Jerusalem” the same place as the Gehenna described by the Lord as the “eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels”? Do you believe the devil, aka, Satan is a spiritual being created by God?The "eternal fire" is a subset of the Gehenna/Hinnom/Is66:24 imagery yes. No I don't believe fallen angels literally exist, or that fallen angels will literally be burnt outside Jerusalem or in any other places. When Christ says "the devil and his angels" I take that as being the goats themselves, i.e. the "angels" (in this symbolic/apocalyptic context a better translation of aggeloi than mere "messengers") are those of their father the devil, sin.

So yes, if you're pointing out that there's a connection between my not taking fallen angels literally and not taking all the Hinnom "fire" imagery literally, there is. Nevertheless, "Jerusalem" in the Gospels generally means the city located here on earth, and the history of Mount Zion, Hinnom, the Mount of Olives is part of what "Jerusalem" is.


Three of the four are based on Scripture and one view without biblical support.Hey, let's both play nicely, this is a discussion based on the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, agreed? :) So could you please be specific and tell me which one of the four you feel does not have Biblical support and I'll endeavour to share the verses I feel support it.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 15th 2007, 03:48 AM
Hi LH :)The "eternal fire" is a subset of the Gehenna/Hinnom/Is66:24 imagery yes. No I don't believe fallen angels literally exist, or that fallen angels will literally be burnt outside Jerusalem or in any other places. When Christ says "the devil and his angels" I take that as being the goats themselves, i.e. the "angels" (in this symbolic/apocalyptic context a better translation of aggeloi than mere "messengers") are those of their father the devil, sin.

So yes, if you're pointing out that there's a connection between my not taking fallen angels literally and not taking all the Hinnom "fire" imagery literally, there is. Nevertheless, "Jerusalem" in the Gospels generally means the city located here on earth, and the history of Mount Zion, Hinnom, the Mount of Olives is part of what "Jerusalem" is.

Just as the city of Jerusalem is a literal place, so too the Gehenna (Hell) described by Jesus is a literal place reserved for the wicked and created specifically for the literal devil and his literal angels. Do you believe the “angels in heaven” are real spiritual beings?
"But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at my right hand,Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
...could you please be specific and tell me which one of the four you feel does not have Biblical support and I'll endeavour to share the verses I feel support it.
I will pick door number three – “a rapture of the living (to Jerusalem)”.

Firstfruits
Nov 15th 2007, 08:51 AM
Hi Firstfruits :) Yes. This means God and Jesus coming down to earth, and the mansion being on earth - although it's talking about the Paraclete, not the Second Coming. Likewise "the pillar of the temple of my God" is a temple here now - the church, and moreso when Christ returns.


The important thing is that the rapture, gathering (by air, by angels) will be to Jerusalem:

Matt5:35 "Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King".
Matt23:37-39 "O Jerusalem ... see me again until"
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (said in Jerusalem, assumes Jerusalem is the centre of the earth).
Acts 1:11 "in like manner" - cf.
Zech 14:4 "his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives"

These verses confirm that the rapture (of living and dead) is by air to a destination on earth (for the living and dead to be judged).



Hi Dizzy
Good point. And relevant to Gehenna having been prepared and being outside Jerusalem, not "in the air".

Matt 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

This "left" and "right" is part Judaic association with the left/right hand but also assumes Christ standing facing Jerusalem outside the East Gate (through which Ezekiel prophecies the Prince entering)

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CNM08-Jerusalem.gif

Not that I take the symbolic elements literally, but it's part of the parable that Gehenna ("hell") is just outside Jerusalem, and the geography is relevant.

God bless
Steven

Are you saying that Revelation 21:1-3. and John 14:23. are not the same?

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Jn 14:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

This is the new Jerusalem, after the first heaven and earth are passed away.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This present earth as you will agree, is not in heaven, therefore cannot come down from heaven. Dont forget it will have passed away.

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 03:42 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)
Are you saying that Revelation 21:1-3. and John 14:23. are not the same?I have no idea. I know what John 14:23 is about - Christ and God coming and making their "mansion" (Greek, adobe, only 2 NT uses, John14:3,23) with us here and now through the Paraclete. Revelation 21 could mean anything. But if I was forced to say, Rev21 might be future.... But generally I don't think it's safe to let literal readings of symbolic/apocalyptic prophecy decide what the Gospels mean.


2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This present earth as you will agree, is not in heaven, therefore cannot come down from heaven. Dont forget it will have passed away.Sorry, I don't share this belief that Christ will destroy the planet - to be honest that is not as common belief this side of the Atlantic as it is on yours. Nor do I believe that distant galaxies will literally "fall from heaven"

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This is all apocalyptic imagery, drawn from the OT. It wasn't literal astronomical phenomena in the OT prophets, so no reason it should be literal astronomical phenomena in the NT.
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 03:49 AM
I will pick door number three – “a rapture of the living (to Jerusalem)”.

Do you take the view that there are two angelic / aerial transports?
i. the Olivet "gathering"
ii. the 1Thess4:17 "rapture" and apantesis http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G529&Version=kjv

losthorizon
Nov 16th 2007, 04:06 AM
Sorry, I don't share this belief that Christ will destroy the planet...

The notion that the “earth shall become heaven” is a non-biblical concept. The Bible goes to great lengths to make the distinction between the abode of God (heaven) and the abode of mankind (earth).
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is (Deut10:14).When Jesus returns (Second Coming), “the earth also and the works that are therein, shall be burnt up…and then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father…” Where does the Father dwell? His abode is in the “heaven of heavens” not on a remodeled earth.

losthorizon
Nov 16th 2007, 04:09 AM
Do you take the view that there are two angelic / aerial transports?
i. the Olivet "gathering"
ii. the 1Thess4:17 "rapture"
I guess you will have to indulge me and go into greater detail before I can take a stab at your question. I am not familiar with “two angelic / aerial transports”.

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 04:14 AM
I guess you will have to indulge me and go into greater detail before I can take a stab at your question. I am not familiar with “two angelic / aerial transports”.

Some people consider Matt 24:31 and 1Thess4:17 to be the same event, some consider them different.

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 04:18 AM
The notion that the “earth shall become heaven” is a non-biblical concept. It sure is. Who on this thread believes that? :confused

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"

losthorizon
Nov 16th 2007, 04:25 AM
Some people consider Matt 24:31 and 1Thess4:17 to be the same event, some consider them different.
More detail, please..."two angelic / aerial transports"?? I think both verses relate to the end of the world, the coming of Christ and the final judgment.

losthorizon
Nov 16th 2007, 04:29 AM
It sure is. Who on this thread believes that? :confused

"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"
Where do the redeemed in Christ reside, eternally?

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 04:46 AM
Hi LH :)
Where do the redeemed in Christ reside, eternally?Finally, and ultimately Christ hands the kingdom up to God, 1Co15:24. The location isn't given, is it?

But if it's a general question relative to the rapture, and those who "sleep" in 1Thess4:17, whether they are in heaven or in the grave, then according to John 3:13 and Psalm 6:5, 1Co15:23 etc, the answer is that the redeemed are currently in the grave, then when Christ comes:
i Christ descends
ii those who sleep in Christ rise first
iii the living meet (apantesis) Christ and the raised dead in the air
iv all go onwards to the destination of choice (under debate)



Could you summarize what you expect to happen when Christ returns please?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 16th 2007, 05:04 AM
Hi LH :)Finally, and ultimately Christ hands the kingdom up to God, 1Co15:24. The location isn't given, is it?

But if it's a general question relative to the rapture, and those who "sleep" in 1Thess4:17, whether they are in heaven or in the grave, then according to John 3:13 and Psalm 6:5, 1Co15:23 etc, the answer is that the redeemed are currently in the grave, then when Christ comes:
i Christ descends
ii those who sleep in Christ rise first
iii the living meet (apantesis) Christ and the raised dead in the air
iv all go onwards to the destination of choice (under debate)

"The location isn't given, is it?"

Where does God reside?

Let’s clarify your position before I summarize. Do you believe the souls of those who have died “in Christ Jesus” (the redeemed) “are currently in the grave” or have those disembodied souls gone to be with the Lord waiting for that Day when their bodies will be resurrected from the grave? Do you believe in some form of “soul sleep”? Did not the Revelator see the “souls” of those killed for the cause of Christ under the altar of God in heaven?

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 06:22 AM
Hi LH :)

"The location isn't given, is it?"

Where does God reside? In heaven. But when Paul says Jesus will deliver, paradidomi (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3860&Version=kjv), hand over, the kingdom to God we don't have to take that in the physical sense of Jesus transporting the kingdom to God's residence. I suppose it is possible that when the last child dies at the age of Methuselah the kingdom on earth will lift off the planet and sail upwards through the cosmos... anything is possible.. though I honestly don't feel there's Bible evidence to take this literally. What's more relevant is the concept that there's a transitional period between the resurrection (1Co15:23) and the last enemy being destroyed (1Co15:24-28), but seeing as this is only directly mentioned in 1Co15 we don't know the details.

This goes back to my little photo of the girl from the village in India.



Let’s clarify your position before I summarize. Do you believe the souls of those who have died “in Christ Jesus” (the redeemed) “are currently in the grave” or have those disembodied souls gone to be with the Lord waiting for that Day when their bodies will be resurrected from the grave? Do you believe in some form of “soul sleep”? I believe that term "soul sleep" was first coined by Luther's critics after he nailed his theses to the Wittenburg door, yet in fact Luther never used the term "soul sleep", that is an unscriptural term counter to Bible teaching that "souls die" and the "dead sleep". As for me I believe what Jesus said, that "no one has ascended to heaven". And the reason I believe that is John 14:6, no one bypasses the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus or preempts the cross of Christ to get first to the Father.


Did not the Revelator see the “souls” of those killed for the cause of Christ under the altar of God in heaven?No he did not, he saw a vision. That's a different matter entirely. I'm well aware that John saw a vision of dead souls speaking. But we'd have to be pretty desperate to believe that dead souls can speak to pin our hopes on that one verse, if that's the only verse in 66 books. Is there another?
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2007, 10:04 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)I have no idea. I know what John 14:23 is about - Christ and God coming and making their "mansion" (Greek, adobe, only 2 NT uses, John14:3,23) with us here and now through the Paraclete. Revelation 21 could mean anything. But if I was forced to say, Rev21 might be future.... But generally I don't think it's safe to let literal readings of symbolic/apocalyptic prophecy decide what the Gospels mean.

Sorry, I don't share this belief that Christ will destroy the planet - to be honest that is not as common belief this side of the Atlantic as it is on yours. Nor do I believe that distant galaxies will literally "fall from heaven"

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This is all apocalyptic imagery, drawn from the OT. It wasn't literal astronomical phenomena in the OT prophets, so no reason it should be literal astronomical phenomena in the NT.
God bless
Steven

If you do not belive the following, how do you explain them?

Rev 20:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw a great white throne, And him that sat on it, from whose face the earth And the heaven fled away; And there was found no place for them.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.

Is 51:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=51&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be
abolished.

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all The inhabitants Thereof are dissolved: I bear up The pillars of it. Selah.

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, The earth is clean dissolved, The earth is moved exceedingly.
Is 24:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and The transgression Thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Mt 24:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mk 13:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Lk 21:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Are these prophecies false, or misleading?

Steven3
Nov 16th 2007, 10:43 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)
Are these prophecies false, or misleading?They are misleading when taken out of context. Take the verse you quoted Isaiah 51:6 on it's own it means Christ will destroy the planet, but taken in context with the rest of Isaiah 51 it means Christ is going to heal the planet.

Isaiah 51:1 “Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,
you who seek the Lord:
look to the rock from which you were hewn,
and to the quarry from which you were dug.
2 Look to Abraham your father
and to Sarah who bore you;
for he was but one when I called him,
that I might bless him and multiply him.
3 For the Lord comforts Zion;
he comforts all her waste places
and makes her wilderness like Eden,
her desert like the garden of the Lord;
joy and gladness will be found in her,
thanksgiving and the voice of song.
4 “Give attention to me, my people,
and give ear to me, my nation;
for a law will go out from me,
and I will set my justice for a light to the peoples.
5 My righteousness draws near,
my salvation has gone out,
and my arms will judge the peoples;
the coastlands hope for me,
and for my arm they wait.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look at the earth beneath;
for the heavens vanish like smoke,
the earth will wear out like a garment,
and they who dwell in it will die in like manner;
but my salvation will be forever,
and my righteousness will never be dismayed.
7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness,
the people in whose heart is my law;
fear not the reproach of man,
nor be dismayed at their revilings.
8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment,
and the worm will eat them like wool;
but my righteousness will be forever,
and my salvation to all generations.”
9 Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the Lord;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over?
11 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return
and come to Zion with singing;
everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
they shall obtain gladness and joy,
and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
12 “I, I am he who comforts you;
who are you that you are afraid of man who dies,
of the son of man who is made like grass,
13 and have forgotten the Lord, your Maker,
who stretched out the heavens
and laid the foundations of the earth,
and you fear continually all the day
because of the wrath of the oppressor,
when he sets himself to destroy?
And where is the wrath of the oppressor?
14 He who is bowed down shall speedily be released;
he shall not die and go down to the pit,
neither shall his bread be lacking.
15 I am the Lord your God,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the Lord of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in your mouth
and covered you in the shadow of my hand,
establishing the heavens
and laying the foundations of the earth,
and saying to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”
17 Wake yourself, wake yourself,
stand up, O Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord
the cup of his wrath,
who have drunk to the dregs
the bowl, the cup of staggering.
18 There is none to guide her
among all the sons she has borne;
there is none to take her by the hand
among all the sons she has brought up.
19 These two things have happened to you—
who will console you?—
devastation and destruction, famine and sword;
who will comfort you?
20 Your sons have fainted;
they lie at the head of every street
like an antelope in a net;
they are full of the wrath of the Lord,
the rebuke of your God.
21 Therefore hear this, you who are afflicted,
who are drunk, but not with wine:
22 Thus says your Lord, the Lord,
your God who pleads the cause of his people:
“Behold, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering;
the bowl of my wrath you shall drink no more;
23 and I will put it into the hand of your tormentors,
who have said to you,
‘Bow down, that we may pass over’;
and you have made your back like the ground
and like the street for them to pass over.”
52:1 Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake yourself from the dust and arise;
be seated, O Jerusalem;
loose the bonds from your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus says the Lord: “You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money.” 4 For thus says the Lord God: “My people went down at the first into Egypt to sojourn there, and the Assyrian oppressed them for nothing. 5 Now therefore what have I here,” declares the Lord, “seeing that my people are taken away for nothing? Their rulers wail,” declares the Lord, “and continually all the day my name is despised. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name. Therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here am I.”
7 How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness,
who publishes salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
8 The voice of your watchmen—they lift up their voice;
together they sing for joy;
for eye to eye they see
the return of the Lord to Zion.
9 Break forth together into singing,
you waste places of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people;
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord has bared his holy arm
before the eyes of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth shall see
the salvation of our God.
11 Depart, depart, go out from there;
touch no unclean thing;
go out from the midst of her; purify yourselves,
you who bear the vessels of the Lord.
12 For you shall not go out in haste,
and you shall not go in flight,
for the Lord will go before you,
and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.


The same is true for the other verses - out of context they contradict what precedes and follows. Not that the making of the "new heavens" is not radical, not that fire isn't involved, but it doesn't require destroying the planet or exterminating every living being.

Ask yourself, why? Why would Christ torch baby chipmunks? :confused
http://www.sugarbushsquirrel.com/image/20993289.JPG

See how Isaiah ends:

Isaiah 66:18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.

24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

The fire of dead men who have rebelled against me, not baby chipmunks, not Third World children.

God created the earth, God created man, it's in his power to arrange it so the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 16th 2007, 11:47 AM
Hi Firstfruits :) They are misleading when taken out of context. Take the verse you quoted Isaiah 51:6 on it's own it means Christ will destroy the planet, but taken in context with the rest of Isaiah 51 it means Christ is going to heal the planet.

Isaiah 51:1 “Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,
you who seek the Lord:
look to the rock from which you were hewn,
and to the quarry from which you were dug.
2 Look to Abraham your father
and to Sarah who bore you;
for he was but one when I called him,
that I might bless him and multiply him.
3 For the Lord comforts Zion;
he comforts all her waste places
and makes her wilderness like Eden,
her desert like the garden of the Lord;
joy and gladness will be found in her,
thanksgiving and the voice of song.
4 “Give attention to me, my people,
and give ear to me, my nation;
for a law will go out from me,
and I will set my justice for a light to the peoples.
5 My righteousness draws near,
my salvation has gone out,
and my arms will judge the peoples;
the coastlands hope for me,
and for my arm they wait.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look at the earth beneath;
for the heavens vanish like smoke,
the earth will wear out like a garment,
and they who dwell in it will die in like manner;
but my salvation will be forever,
and my righteousness will never be dismayed.
7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness,
the people in whose heart is my law;
fear not the reproach of man,
nor be dismayed at their revilings.
8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment,
and the worm will eat them like wool;
but my righteousness will be forever,
and my salvation to all generations.”
9 Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the Lord;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over?
11 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return
and come to Zion with singing;
everlasting joy shall be upon their heads;
they shall obtain gladness and joy,
and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
12 “I, I am he who comforts you;
who are you that you are afraid of man who dies,
of the son of man who is made like grass,
13 and have forgotten the Lord, your Maker,
who stretched out the heavens
and laid the foundations of the earth,
and you fear continually all the day
because of the wrath of the oppressor,
when he sets himself to destroy?
And where is the wrath of the oppressor?
14 He who is bowed down shall speedily be released;
he shall not die and go down to the pit,
neither shall his bread be lacking.
15 I am the Lord your God,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the Lord of hosts is his name.
16 And I have put my words in your mouth
and covered you in the shadow of my hand,
establishing the heavens
and laying the foundations of the earth,
and saying to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”
17 Wake yourself, wake yourself,
stand up, O Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord
the cup of his wrath,
who have drunk to the dregs
the bowl, the cup of staggering.
18 There is none to guide her
among all the sons she has borne;
there is none to take her by the hand
among all the sons she has brought up.
19 These two things have happened to you—
who will console you?—
devastation and destruction, famine and sword;
who will comfort you?
20 Your sons have fainted;
they lie at the head of every street
like an antelope in a net;
they are full of the wrath of the Lord,
the rebuke of your God.
21 Therefore hear this, you who are afflicted,
who are drunk, but not with wine:
22 Thus says your Lord, the Lord,
your God who pleads the cause of his people:
“Behold, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering;
the bowl of my wrath you shall drink no more;
23 and I will put it into the hand of your tormentors,
who have said to you,
‘Bow down, that we may pass over’;
and you have made your back like the ground
and like the street for them to pass over.”
52:1 Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake yourself from the dust and arise;
be seated, O Jerusalem;
loose the bonds from your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus says the Lord: “You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money.” 4 For thus says the Lord God: “My people went down at the first into Egypt to sojourn there, and the Assyrian oppressed them for nothing. 5 Now therefore what have I here,” declares the Lord, “seeing that my people are taken away for nothing? Their rulers wail,” declares the Lord, “and continually all the day my name is despised. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name. Therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here am I.”
7 How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness,
who publishes salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
8 The voice of your watchmen—they lift up their voice;
together they sing for joy;
for eye to eye they see
the return of the Lord to Zion.
9 Break forth together into singing,
you waste places of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people;
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord has bared his holy arm
before the eyes of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth shall see
the salvation of our God.
11 Depart, depart, go out from there;
touch no unclean thing;
go out from the midst of her; purify yourselves,
you who bear the vessels of the Lord.
12 For you shall not go out in haste,
and you shall not go in flight,
for the Lord will go before you,
and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.


The same is true for the other verses - out of context they contradict what precedes and follows. Not that the making of the "new heavens" is not radical, not that fire isn't involved, but it doesn't require destroying the planet or exterminating every living being.

Ask yourself, why? Why would Christ torch baby chipmunks? :confused
http://www.sugarbushsquirrel.com/image/20993289.JPG

See how Isaiah ends:

Isaiah 66:18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.

24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

The fire of dead men who have rebelled against me, not baby chipmunks, not Third World children.

God created the earth, God created man, it's in his power to arrange it so the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
God bless
Steven

Can you have a look at the following and tell me if it is a description of this earth?

Is 60:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Is 60:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Is 60:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Rev 21:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, And the Lamb is the light thereof
Rev 21:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; And they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: And they shall reign for ever And ever.

Steven3
Nov 17th 2007, 03:07 AM
Hi Firstfruits

Can you have a look at the following and tell me if it is a description of this earth?

Is 60:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
Is 60:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Is 60:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=60&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.Did you mean to include 60:21? Surely you should delete that verse and just have 19-20, because 21 talks of "inheriting the land forever". I assumed that you believe that planet and solar system would be destroyed?

To answer the question: is Isaiah 60 literal journalistic text, scientific and concrete narrative? No. I believe that Isaiah is poetry, and I read the whole chapter as poetry.

If you want to take part of it as literal you have to take all of it as literal:
The Future Glory of Israel

60:1 Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth,
and thick darkness the peoples;
but the Lord will arise upon you,
and his glory will be seen upon you.
3 And nations shall come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your rising.
4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see;
they all gather together, they come to you;
your sons shall come from afar,
and your daughters shall be carried on the hip.
5 Then you shall see and be radiant;
your heart shall thrill and exult,
because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
the wealth of the nations shall come to you.
6 A multitude of camels shall cover you,
the young camels of Midian and Ephah;
all those from Sheba shall come.
They shall bring gold and frankincense,
and shall bring good news, the praises of the Lord.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you;
the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you;
they shall come up with acceptance on my altar,
and I will beautify my beautiful house.
8 Who are these that fly like a cloud,
and like doves to their windows?
9 For the coastlands shall hope for me,
the ships of Tarshish first,
to bring your children from afar,
their silver and gold with them,
for the name of the Lord your God,
and for the Holy One of Israel,
because he has made you beautiful.
10 Foreigners shall build up your walls,
and their kings shall minister to you;
for in my wrath I struck you,
but in my favor I have had mercy on you.
11 Your gates shall be open continually;
day and night they shall not be shut,
that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations,
with their kings led in procession.
12 For the nation and kingdom
that will not serve you shall perish;
those nations shall be utterly laid waste.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you,
the cypress, the plane, and the pine,
to beautify the place of my sanctuary,
and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14 The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the Lord,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Whereas you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one passing through,
I will make you majestic forever,
a joy from age to age.
16 You shall suck the milk of nations;
you shall nurse at the breast of kings;
and you shall know that I, the Lord, am your Savior
and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
and instead of iron I will bring silver;
instead of wood, bronze,
instead of stones, iron.
I will make your overseers peace
and your taskmasters righteousness.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land,
devastation or destruction within your borders;
you shall call your walls Salvation,
and your gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;
but the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.
22 The least one shall become a clan,
and the smallest one a mighty nation;
I am the Lord;
in its time I will hasten it.





Rev 21:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, And the Lamb is the light thereof
Rev 21:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; And they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: And they shall reign for ever And ever.Symbols, poetry, allegory..... in short, Jewish apocalyptic literature. Nothing in Revelation should be taken literally unless it has plain speech support from elsewhere in the NT. Can I ask, have you ever read any symbolic or allegorical or poetic books outside the Bible? If not can I suggest Children of the Alley (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385264739.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) by Mahfouz.



There's an art to reading allegory - it's like looking at a painting by Bosch or Picasso, or even Salvador Dali (below).

http://www.artinthepicture.com/artists/Salvador_Dali/persistence.jpeg

These are not straight portraits of literal things Bosch, Picasso and Dali saw.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 17th 2007, 03:15 PM
[quote=Steven3;1443063]Hi Firstfruits
Did you mean to include 60:21? Surely you should delete that verse and just have 19-20, because 21 talks of "inheriting the land forever". I assumed that you believe that planet and solar system would be destroyed?

To answer the question: is Isaiah 60 literal journalistic text, scientific and concrete narrative? No. I believe that Isaiah is poetry, and I read the whole chapter as poetry.

If you want to take part of it as literal you have to take all of it as literal:
The Future Glory of Israel

19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;
but the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.

Symbols, poetry, allegory..... in short, Jewish apocalyptic literature. Nothing in Revelation should be taken literally unless it has plain speech support from elsewhere in the NT. Can I ask, have you ever read any symbolic or allegorical or poetic books outside the Bible? If not can I suggest Children of the Alley (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0385264739.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) by Mahfouz.

King James Version Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Jesus said that this is prophecy, we are further warned in the following not to change what is written.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

19 The sun shall be no more
your light by day,
nor for brightness shall the moon
give you light;
but the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun shall no more go down,
nor your moon withdraw itself;
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
and your days of mourning shall be ended.
21 Your people shall all be righteous;
they shall possess the land forever,
the branch of my planting, the work of my hands,
that I might be glorified.

In the New Jerusalem as it is written they shall reign for ever.

Rev 21:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; And they need no cAndle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: And they shall reign for ever And ever.

Whom will we hear?

Deut 18:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deut 18:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Deut 18:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Jn 12:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jn 12:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jn 12:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jn 14:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Do we believe the words of Christ, and his prophecy?

Steven3
Nov 18th 2007, 04:18 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)

There are three issues here:

1. When we come as humble readers of God's word. we need to avoid cherrypicking, e.g. only taking the "destroy the earth"-type verses in Isaiah or Revelation (or 2Peter3) literally, but not the "heal the earth"-type verses.

2. We also need to read context - e.g. Isaiah describes Armageddon, for want of a better word, but concludes with a paradise on earth.

3. Most difficult for us Anglo-Saxons, we need to learn to distinguish between a painting by Bosch, Dali or Picasso, on the one hand, and a painting by Reubens or a photo in Newsweek on the other.



Do we believe the words of Christ, and his prophecy?Do we believe Picasso's 'Guernica'? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1443847)

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 18th 2007, 05:23 AM
Hi Quiet Dove

These are not straight portraits of literal things Bosch, Picasso and Dali saw.
God bless
Steven

Last edited by quiet dove : Today at 05:52 AM. Reason: removed photo, sorry dude

Dude, no problem :), I agree, this isn't the place to lay groundwork for what's symbolic and what's literal.

Back to thread:

Hi Firstfruits

Acts 1: 9-11 tells us how Jesus was taken into heaven, and that he shall return the same way.

Acts 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; And a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand Ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as Ye have seen him go into heaven. Okay, so here we have a literal ascension, visible and Christ going
Mt Olives->air->clouds->heaven
So we should expect
heaven->air->clouds->Mt Olives

So far so good.

Also in Acts 1:11 no hint of either
(a) Christ coming halfway then going back
(b) Christ destroying the planet


1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.

This is the same manner as when Christ was taken into heaven.

Has the prophecy changed that Christ will come in another manner, other than how he was taken?

No. Because it hasn't changed then he should come as he left:

1. Christ comes down
2. The dead rise
3. The raised are raptured (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&Version=kjv) (like Philip was raptured (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&Version=kjv) to Azotus)
4. The living are raptured (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&Version=kjv) to meet (like going out to meet (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=529&version=kjv) Paul at Appii in Acts 28:15)
5. The living-and-raised are set down (like Philip in Acts 8:39)
6. Judgment of living and dead ("at his appearing (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2015&Version=kjv) and his kingdom" 2Tim4:1)
7. "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" (like the bridegroom going into the village after being met (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=529&version=kjv) by the virgins in Matt25:1)

God bless :)
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 18th 2007, 11:02 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)

There are three issues here:

1. When we come as humble readers of God's word. we need to avoid cherrypicking, e.g. only taking the "destroy the earth"-type verses in Isaiah or Revelation (or 2Peter3) literally, but not the "heal the earth"-type verses.

2. We also need to read context - e.g. Isaiah describes Armageddon, for want of a better word, but concludes with a paradise on earth.

3. Most difficult for us Anglo-Saxons, we need to learn to distinguish between a painting by Bosch, Dali or Picasso, on the one hand, and a painting by Reubens or a photo in Newsweek on the other.


Do we believe Picasso's 'Guernica'? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1443847)

God bless
Steven


Is the earth you are reffering to, the Kingdom of God? If so please explain the following, since we would not have to be changed to live on this earth, as we are already earthy.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Is the kingdom of God the New earth, the New Jerusalem?

Jn 14:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jn 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Steven3
Nov 18th 2007, 01:27 PM
Hi Firstfruits

Is the earth you are reffering to, the Kingdom of God?The earth the angels in Acts 1:11 were referring to was our earth, yes.
If so please explain the following, since we would not have to be changed to live on this earth, as we are already earthy.And we get more earthy past 40. I could do with several body parts being changed please. We don't have to be changed to live on the earth for the next however many years it takes for age to take us, no. But Paul teaches that those who pass the judgment will be changed, made like Christ's physical post-resurrection body, "flesh and bone" Luke 24:39, but not "flesh and blood" 1Co15:50, if we can work that out.

The "many mansions" verse has nothing to do with going to heaven, see 14:2-4, 23.
God bless
Steven

DIZZY
Nov 19th 2007, 12:41 AM
Hi LH :)
In heaven. But when Paul says Jesus will deliver, paradidomi (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3860&Version=kjv), hand over, the kingdom to God we don't have to take that in the physical sense of Jesus transporting the kingdom to God's residence. I suppose it is possible that when the last child dies at the age of Methuselah the kingdom on earth will lift off the planet and sail upwards through the cosmos... anything is possible.. though I honestly don't feel there's Bible evidence to take this literally. What's more relevant is the concept that there's a transitional period between the resurrection (1Co15:23) and the last enemy being destroyed (1Co15:24-28), but seeing as this is only directly mentioned in 1Co15 we don't know the details.

This goes back to my little photo of the girl from the village in India.


I believe that term "soul sleep" was first coined by Luther's critics after he nailed his theses to the Wittenburg door, yet in fact Luther never used the term "soul sleep", that is an unscriptural term counter to Bible teaching that "souls die" and the "dead sleep". As for me I believe what Jesus said, that "no one has ascended to heaven". And the reason I believe that is John 14:6, no one bypasses the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus or preempts the cross of Christ to get first to the Father.

[QUOTE]
No he did not, he saw a vision. That's a different matter entirely. I'm well aware that John saw a vision of dead souls speaking. But we'd have to be pretty desperate to believe that dead souls can speak to pin our hopes on that one verse, if that's the only verse in 66 books. Is there another?
God bless Steven


Did not Daniel an all the other prophets have visions. So are they not counted as prophecy. To me the a vision of the souls under the altar is no different than the visions the other prophets had.


Revelation6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

As you would notice these souls were given a white robe so that John was able to identify with them and who they were. These souls were waiting for their brethren and fellow servants to be martyred as they were then we find these souls gathered with those who where martyred before the throne in the verses below.

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Dizzy

DIZZY
Nov 19th 2007, 01:19 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)

There are three issues here:

1. When we come as humble readers of God's word. we need to avoid cherrypicking, e.g. only taking the "destroy the earth"-type verses in Isaiah or Revelation (or 2Peter3) literally, but not the "heal the earth"-type verses.

2. We also need to read context - e.g. Isaiah describes Armageddon, for want of a better word, but concludes with a paradise on earth.

3. Most difficult for us Anglo-Saxons, we need to learn to distinguish between a painting by Bosch, Dali or Picasso, on the one hand, and a painting by Reubens or a photo in Newsweek on the other.


Do we believe Picasso's 'Guernica'? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1443847)

God bless
Steven

Yes we have a literal paradise when Christ restores the earth to it's former glory during the millennial reign , then after that the literal destruction of the earth which is noted in 2 Peter 3:10

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Before the earth is literally destroyed there will be a literal regeneration of the earh where the old testament saints, the church saints and the tribulation saints will reign with Christ.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This regeneration is before the final destruction of the earth as I said or should I say as the word of God says. They both are literal events and Armageddon literally happens at the end of the tribulation period.

So therefore you have Armageddon then the regeneration of the earth then the total destruction of the earth and Christ hands the spiritual kingdom over to God who creates a literal new heavens and a new earth.

Now hopefully this Anglo- Saxon has explained what happens clear enough for you highly intelligent people.;):D:P:saint:

God Bless

ross3421
Nov 19th 2007, 02:25 AM
Yes we have a literal paradise when Christ restores the earth to it's former glory during the millennial reign , then after that the literal destruction of the earth which is noted in 2 Peter 3:10

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.


When does the Lord come as a thief? A 1000 years AFTER he returns?

Re 16:12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates;

Re 16:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Re 16:17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;


We see that the Lord comes as a thief upon his second coming thus the destruction of the earth accompanies his return as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 and not 1000 years later.

Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



So therefore you have Armageddon then the regeneration of the earth then the total destruction of the earth and Christ hands the spiritual kingdom over to God who creates a literal new heavens and a new earth.



No, what you have is Armageddon and the total destruction of the earth occurring on the same day, the last day, the day of the Lord.

Mark.

Steven3
Nov 19th 2007, 02:27 AM
Hi Dizzy
Now hopefully this Anglo- Saxon has explained what happens clear enough for you highly intelligent people.;):D:P:saint:Well, putting 2Pe3 at the end of the millenium is one way of getting round the contradiction of 2Pe3 with all of the "meek will inherit the earth" type verses - I have to be honest a way I hadn't heard before, so thanks for stretching my thinking, new ideas are always welcome.

But, it's still very Anglo-Saxon ;), and it doesn't fit Peter's chronology:

2Pe3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The "new earth in which righteousness dwells" comes after the destruction of the old earth.

So really the only solution is for Christians to think of the "heavenly bodies" as being OT prophet style language for the governments of men, rather than the physical sun and moon.

Righteousness cannot dwell in the actual planet (the magma core, the mantle, the hills) it dwells in men. Again men are what sinned, not the butterflies. :)
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 19th 2007, 02:29 AM
No, what you have is Armageddon and the total destruction of the earth occurring on the same day, the last day, the day of the Lord.

Mark.

Mark - what's Jesus going to do to the earth's children when he comes?

losthorizon
Nov 19th 2007, 03:43 AM
Hi LH :)Finally, and ultimately Christ hands the kingdom up to God, 1Co15:24. The location isn't given, is it?

The kingdom is handed up to God where He dwells – up in “the third heaven” not on the earth.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago---whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows---such a man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

DIZZY
Nov 19th 2007, 04:29 AM
When does the Lord come as a thief? A 1000 years AFTER he returns?

Re 16:12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates;

Re 16:15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Re 16:17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air;


We see that the Lord comes as a thief upon his second coming thus the destruction of the earth accompanies his return as seen in 2 Peter 3:10 and not 1000 years later.

Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.



No, what you have is Armageddon and the total destruction of the earth occurring on the same day, the last day, the day of the Lord.

Mark.

So tell me when is the regeneration of everything surpose to be?

Steven3
Nov 19th 2007, 05:45 AM
Hi Lost Horizon :)
The kingdom is handed up to God where He dwells – up in “the third heaven” not on the earth.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago---whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows---such a man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

1. best to read up about Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574) in Jewish religion before inventing a meaning. God lives in the Seventh Heaven according to the Superapostles.

2. 1Co15:24 is after Christ has raised the dead and ruled on earth till sin and death are destroyed. Of course if we share the view that Christ comes back to exterminate mankind and blow up the planet, that might be very quickly after 1Co15:23. (This is where I repeat my question about the maternity wards again...)

3. The subject of the OP Behold He Cometh With The Clouds!!!!!! (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1444561#post1444561) is Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the disciples that Jesus would come in like manner as he left. If he comes back halfway, then goes back again, that isn't the same manner.

God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 19th 2007, 11:09 AM
Hi Firstfruits
The earth the angels in Acts 1:11 were referring to was our earth, yes.And we get more earthy past 40. I could do with several body parts being changed please. We don't have to be changed to live on the earth for the next however many years it takes for age to take us, no. But Paul teaches that those who pass the judgment will be changed, made like Christ's physical post-resurrection body, "flesh and bone" Luke 24:39, but not "flesh and blood" 1Co15:50, if we can work that out.

The "many mansions" verse has nothing to do with going to heaven, see 14:2-4, 23.
God bless
Steven

First question, where is the kingdom of God?

If we are not going to be changed, then with regards to the following, is Jesus no longer a spirit?

Jn 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 20 17. tells us that after his resurrection Jesus had not yet returned to his Father, and was therefore still flesh.
Jn 20:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Has Jesus not returned to God the Father, as he was before he was made flesh?

Jn 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

2 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

ross3421
Nov 19th 2007, 05:32 PM
Mark - what's Jesus going to do to the earth's children when he comes?

What earth's children are you refering to???????

Steven3
Nov 20th 2007, 01:59 AM
Hi Mark
What earth's children are you refering to???????Earth's children; children of Christians and Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims. Under the scenario that Christ only comes halfway (not one Bible verse in support), and if Christ intends to destroy the planet (2Pe3 taken out of context), then what happens to the planet's children?
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 20th 2007, 02:15 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)
First question, where is the kingdom of God?Is, or was, or where will it be?
PAST - "Kingdom of Yahweh" = over Israel
PRESENT - "Kingdom of his beloved Son" = the church
FUTURE - "Kingdom of Heaven" = from Heaven, on earth


If we are not going to be changed...We are going to be changed. And no, Jesus said "A spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see I have". We will not be spirits. We will not be naked, but clothed with a new "spiritual" and "incorruptible" body. Different things:
Christ "not a spirit" = not a spirit
Paul "spiritual body" = spiritual body


John 20 17. tells us that after his resurrection Jesus had not yet returned to his Father, and was therefore still flesh.I don't see the logic since he had a body when he did ascend as well. He wasn't truly still "flesh" in the figurative sense of mortal and temptable "in the days of his flesh", but literally "had flesh and bone". Note the difference in the verbs "be" and "have" with "flesh":
FIGURATIVE "be flesh" = be of a corruptible nature
LITERAL "have flesh (and bone)" = have an incorruptible body Luke 24:39

A person cannot literally "be" flesh, "be" meat, that is figurative. We "have" flesh, we "have" flesh and bones. Likewise there are literal and figurative meanings of spirit
FIGURATIVE "be spirit" = be spiritual
LITERAL "have a spirit" = have breath, have life, have a phantom

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Why did Jesus not jettison this 40-day body when he ascended? Why did he "take" this body to heaven? Because he will come in like manner. Those who pierced him will look on him as Thomas and the 10 did. In short, Jesus still has some use for his incorruptible body.

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago

God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 20th 2007, 03:11 AM
...best to read up about Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574) in Jewish religion before inventing a meaning. God lives in the Seventh Heaven according to the Superapostles.


It is my understanding that there are “three heavens” – earth’s atmosphere, space (galaxies, etc), and the realm of God's throne which is the "third heaven" Paul spoke about .


1Co15:24 is after Christ has raised the dead and ruled on earth till sin and death are destroyed. Of course if we share the view that Christ comes back to exterminate mankind and blow up the planet, that might be very quickly after 1Co15:23. (This is where I repeat my question about the maternity wards again...)
As previously stated, the view I hold is that at His seconding coming Jesus comes back not to "set up" a kindgom, but to "deliver up" His kingdom to the Father - the same kingdom that was established in the 1st Century -and then comes the end.


The subject of the OP Behold He Cometh With The Clouds!!!!!! is Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the disciples that Jesus would come in like manner as he left. If he comes back halfway, then goes back again, that isn't the same manner.
"If he comes back halfway"?? - You will have to elaborate on this "halfway idea". The fact that He comes “with the clouds” is a reference that just as His ascension into heaven was visible so too will His 2nd coming be visible - not some "secret coming" as some claim.

Steven3
Nov 20th 2007, 07:21 AM
Hi LH :)
It is my understanding that there are “three heavens” – earth’s atmosphere, space (galaxies, etc), and the realm of God's throne which is the "third heaven" Paul spoke about . Given that the phrase doesn't occur elsewhere in the Bible I'm afraid I'd have to ask from where exactly did you get this understanding? Also, whether consistency requires that you would read "Third Heaven" according to that understanding when it occurs outside the Bible, in contemporary Jewish texts?



2. 1Co15:24 is after Christ has raised the dead and ruled on earth till sin and death are destroyed. Of course if we share the view that Christ comes back to exterminate mankind and blow up the planet, that might be very quickly after 1Co15:23. (This is where I repeat my question about the maternity wards again...)As previously stated, the view I hold is that at His seconding coming Jesus comes back not to "set up" a kindgom, but to "deliver up" His kingdom to the Father - the same kingdom that was established in the 1st Century -and then comes the end.Yes I know, you see no room for any transitional period in 1Co15:24-26, no matter how brief:

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: (a) Christ the firstfruits, (b) then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 (c) Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Which brings us back to my question about Christ and the maternity wards (not to mention kindergartens, schools, and the bulk of non-white people on the planet). If Christ comes back only to rapture the "saved" and then destroy the planet, doesn't that make Herod's massacre of the innocents pale in comparison?



3. The subject of the OP Behold He Cometh With The Clouds!!!!!! (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1444561#post1444561) is Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the disciples that Jesus would come in like manner as he left. If he comes back halfway, then goes back again, that isn't the same manner. "If he comes back halfway"?? - You will have to elaborate on this "halfway idea". The fact that He comes “with the clouds” is a reference that just as His ascension into heaven was visible so too will His 2nd coming be visible - not some "secret coming" as some claim.What I mean by "halfway" is the following:
Acts 1 : 9-11: Mt of Olives - Air - Clouds - Heaven
1Thess 4:17*: Heaven - Clouds - Air - [Clouds - back to Heaven]
(*1Thess 4:17 doesn't say the section in square brackets, and the word apantesis rules out such a reading)

Isn't this what a visible return means to those who hold to the "Left Behind" scenario? Christ is visible in the sky, but his feet shall never stand on the Mount of Olives. If I've misunderstood what the "Left Behind" doctrine is all about then please correct me.
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 20th 2007, 10:25 AM
Hi Firstfruits :) Is, or was, or where will it be?
PAST - "Kingdom of Yahweh" = over Israel
PRESENT - "Kingdom of his beloved Son" = the church
FUTURE - "Kingdom of Heaven" = from Heaven, on earth

We are going to be changed. And no, Jesus said "A spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see I have". We will not be spirits. We will not be naked, but clothed with a new "spiritual" and "incorruptible" body. Different things:
Christ "not a spirit" = not a spirit
Paul "spiritual body" = spiritual body

I don't see the logic since he had a body when he did ascend as well. He wasn't truly still "flesh" in the figurative sense of mortal and temptable "in the days of his flesh", but literally "had flesh and bone". Note the difference in the verbs "be" and "have" with "flesh":
FIGURATIVE "be flesh" = be of a corruptible nature
LITERAL "have flesh (and bone)" = have an incorruptible body Luke 24:39

A person cannot literally "be" flesh, "be" meat, that is figurative. We "have" flesh, we "have" flesh and bones. Likewise there are literal and figurative meanings of spirit
FIGURATIVE "be spirit" = be spiritual
LITERAL "have a spirit" = have breath, have life, have a phantom

Luke 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Why did Jesus not jettison this 40-day body when he ascended? Why did he "take" this body to heaven? Because he will come in like manner. Those who pierced him will look on him as Thomas and the 10 did. In short, Jesus still has some use for his incorruptible body.

Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago

God bless
Steven

According to Rev. 21:1-3. The kingdom of God is the New Jerusalem.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The logic concerning Christ and the flesh is that before Christ came he was a spirit, when he came he was made flesh.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rom 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

In order to return to heaven to inherit his kingdom he had to return to his heavenly state, as he was before he came.

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Heb 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

We will not be spirits. Please explain how you came to this conclusion in light of the following?

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

One thing we know for sure is that God is a spirit, and Jesus is of God, and we shall be like him when he returns.

Jn 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.
1 Tim 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: god was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Jn 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

ross3421
Nov 20th 2007, 01:23 PM
The logic concerning Christ and the flesh is that before Christ came he was a spirit, when he came he was made flesh.


This should be an example for us all................... before we were flesh we were spirit and after flesh spirit again.


Sorry, I just had to add this tidbit and not meant to derail the tread.


Mark.

ross3421
Nov 20th 2007, 01:30 PM
Hi MarkEarth's children; children of Christians and Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims. Under the scenario that Christ only comes halfway (not one Bible verse in support), and if Christ intends to destroy the planet (2Pe3 taken out of context), then what happens to the planet's children?
God bless
Steven

The point is that there are no "sons of God" ie. born again children of God upon the earth when the Lord returns in utter destruction. Only the wicked will be inhabiting the earth as the rightoues have been previously overcome by the beast.


Mark.

Firstfruits
Nov 20th 2007, 02:09 PM
This should be an example for us all................... before we were flesh we were spirit and after flesh spirit again.


Sorry, I just had to add this tidbit and not meant to derail the tread.


Mark.

Thanks for the imput Mark, no harm done.

Firstfruits
Nov 20th 2007, 03:24 PM
This should be an example for us all................... before we were flesh we were spirit and after flesh spirit again.


Sorry, I just had to add this tidbit and not meant to derail the tread.


Mark.

Can you check this scripture with regards to flesh and spirit.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Firstfruits

Allegra
Nov 20th 2007, 05:35 PM
We'll all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye Paul says. This paradigm he speaks of is the same as rising to heaven & being changed before we get there.
At the resurrection, we are to be like angels, in Jesus' words. This doesn't mean we'll be flesh & blood. Agree? It seems to me that we won't be just mere ethereal, intangible spirits either. Angels are of substance, as we can see them described in the Bible. Cheribum have wings, angels actually don't.
We have a soul (mind, will & emotions) so shall we have a body as He gives us to incorporate that soul & Spirit.

Ross, I don't agree with only the "wicked" or unbelievers only being on this earth during the "thousand years". Satan is bound from deceiving the nations during this time. He is also bound in a respect for believers. Before Christ came Satan was not bound from deceiving the nations. Christians have a certain authority over Satan in Jesus' name, not to let the devil get a foothold. What is a foothold? Well, that's one description of the power Christians HAVE NOW. Not to let the devil attack or influence our soul, (mind, will or emotions)
I attended a Spiritual cleansing seminar at my church in 1999. Its objective was to help Christians walk in the Spirit. We don't always walk in the Spirit, but the more the better.

I do see some Divine intervention for us in Rev. 20 though. Fire coming down from heaven & destroying our enemies shouldn't be overlooked.

Later. God Bless y'all.

quiet dove
Nov 20th 2007, 07:53 PM
This should be an example for us all................... before we were flesh we were spirit and after flesh spirit again.


Sorry, I just had to add this tidbit and not meant to derail the tread.


Mark.

Hi ross,

I moved the last two post, mine and yours to a new thread, its in contro because I wasnt sure just where the topic may go. That way if it is discussed any further maybe we can all stay out of trouble:lol:

Anyone interested, hope on over there.....here, (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=106605) actually.

losthorizon
Nov 21st 2007, 02:59 AM
Hi LH :)Given that the phrase doesn't occur elsewhere in the Bible I'm afraid I'd have to ask from where exactly did you get this understanding? Also, whether consistency requires that you would read "Third Heaven" according to that understanding when it occurs outside the Bible, in contemporary Jewish texts?

But it does occur in the Bible and whatever else it may mean it was the place where Paul was taken into the presence of God, i.e., in the heaven where God resides.


Yes I know, you see no room for any transitional period in 1Co15:24-26, no matter how brief:
What I see is no need for a future establishment of the kingdom of Christ – it has already "come with power". I see no reason for a rebuilt temple made with hands in Jerusalem with a revised Mosaic system that Messiah will rule from – He rules today on David’s throne in the third heaven. If Jesus came back and ruled from this physical earth He would no longer be our High Priest. You have never addressed this enigma.


Which brings us back to my question about Christ and the maternity wards (not to mention kindergartens, schools, and the bulk of non-white people on the planet). If Christ comes back only to rapture the "saved" and then destroy the planet, doesn't that make Herod's massacre of the innocents pale in comparison?
Jesus Christ worked miracles, healed the sick and raised the dead at His first coming among the children of Israel. He fulfilled prophecy and died on the Cross for their sins, yet the majority of the Jews rejected His Messiahship. God, through His prophets had foretold that Jerusalem and the nation would be laid waste for their unbelief and rebellion. In 70 AD God used the Roman legions to fulfill that prophecy and Josephus records that over 1 million Jews died within the city of Jerusalem.

Statistically, we must assume there were tens of thousands of infants and young children among those slaughtered. That number greatly surpasses the innocents slaughtered by Herod. Isn’t our God “gracious and merciful to children that cannot discern between their right hand and their left" per Holy Writ? Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment? Was God justified in destroying Israel and her people, including the innocents?
'But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does the potter not have power over the clay-from the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?' [Rom. 9:20,21].
Isn't this what a visible return means to those who hold to the "Left Behind" scenario? Christ is visible in the sky, but his feet shall never stand on the Mount of Olives. If I've misunderstood what the "Left Behind" doctrine is all about then please correct me.
I don’t believe the "Left Behind scenario” is biblical so you will have to find someone who does and have them explain that misguided doctrine to you. ;)

Steven3
Nov 21st 2007, 04:10 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)

Hi LH :)Given that the phrase doesn't occur elsewhere in the Bible I'm afraid I'd have to ask from where exactly did you get this understanding? Also, whether consistency requires that you would read "Third Heaven" according to that understanding when it occurs outside the Bible, in contemporary Jewish texts?But it does occur in the Bible and whatever else it may mean it was the place where Paul was taken into the presence of God, i.e., in the heaven where God resides. I said "occur elsewhere in the Bible". If it only occurs once then refusing to consider the other uses in Jewish literature outside the Bible, and guessing at a meaning with no reference point is not a sound method for reading Paul.

you see no room for any transitional period in 1Co15:24-26, no matter how briefWhat I see is no need for a future establishment of the kingdom of Christ – it has already "come with power". I already asked for scriptural evidence for this claim? The only NT use of "come with power", is, as was already said, of when James, John and Peter "saw" a "vision" of "the kingdom coming with power" in which they saw Moses and Elijah raised, alive, in their bodies. That hadn't happened then, otherwise Christ would have been "the thirdfruits" behind those two, see 1Co15:23.
He rules today on David’s throne in the third heaven. Again, where is the Scriptural evidence for this claim? Sorry but this is totally random there are 30 mentions of the "throne of David" in the Bible, all refering to Jerusalem, and confirmed by Christ when he calls Jerusalem the "City of the Great King". The "Third Heaven" exists in Jewish literature but certainly does not have David's throne in it.
If Jesus came back and ruled from this physical earth He would no longer be our High Priest. You have never addressed this enigma.Well it didn't stop Melchizedek on earth, why should it stop Jesus on earth? In any case we know that Christ's role as being uninterruptedly a high priest will be modified in the kingdom because Christ said so when he promised to drink wine with the 12 in the kingdom - If he's going to drink wine in the kingdom (Matt26:26-29) he cannot continue uninterruptedly to be a serving high priest according to the OT types. Of course he might break the type. btw - Do you consider Christ is drinking new wine with the disciples in heaven now? Then is he not breaking the wine in the sanctuary commandment for the high priest?



Which brings us back to my question about Christ and the maternity wards (not to mention kindergartens, schools, and the bulk of non-white people on the planet). If Christ comes back only to rapture the "saved" and then destroy the planet, doesn't that make Herod's massacre of the innocents pale in comparison? .... In 70 AD God used the Roman legions to fulfill that prophecy and Josephus records that over 1 million Jews died within the city of Jerusalem. Yes, but Titus Flavius killing children incidentally is no different from Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzar destroying Samaria or Jerusalem the 2nd time. It's also possible that God could use the Arabs or Russia or USA to destroy Jerusalem a 3rd time in the final countdown to Christ's return. That happens, and no one can talk back to God about it. But what is difficult to stomach is the scenario you have been teaching on this forum : that Christ directly, himself, or his angels, comes to wipe out mankind and destroy the planet - including half a billion children.



Isn't this what a visible return means to those who hold to the "Left Behind" scenario? Christ is visible in the sky, but his feet shall never stand on the Mount of Olives. If I've misunderstood what the "Left Behind" doctrine is all about then please correct me. I don’t believe the "Left Behind scenario” is biblical so you will have to find someone who does and have them explain that misguided doctrine to you.I called it "Left Behind" not because I was specifically associating your view here with those trashy books, but simply because I find it difficult to associate a Bible term "rapture" (1Thess4:17, Olivet gathering), with the doctrines of the "rapture" (e.g. escape of Christians, suffering for the rest of mankind, destruction of the planet, etc) circulating in popular Christianity today.

Whatever we call it, you are teaching that Christ comes back to exterminate mankind and give no chance even to the most innocent. Has it occured to you that some of those children will be the ones in the pre-school class at your own church's Sunday School? Or do you think that Christ will only kill babies abroad?

I have to say that I find this aspect of the whatever the name is for this set of doctrines deeply disturbing, and totally contrary to the character of Christ who "suffered the little children to come unto him".

And I wish you'd address some of those verses I keep reposting.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 21st 2007, 05:05 AM
Hi LostHorizon :)I said "occur elsewhere in the Bible". If it only occurs once then refusing to consider the other uses in Jewish literature outside the Bible, and guessing at a meaning with no reference point is not a sound method for reading Paul. I already asked for scriptural evidence for this claim?

Once is all it takes and I have little or no interest in “Jewish literature outside the Bible” – obviously that is where you get many of your ideas. Do you deny that Paul was taken to the "Third Heaven" per the Bible?


I already asked for scriptural evidence for this claim? The only NT use of "come with power", is, as was already said, of when James, John and Peter "saw" a "vision" of "the kingdom coming with power" in which they saw Moses and Elijah raised, alive, in their bodies. That hadn't happened then, otherwise Christ would have been "the thirdfruits" behind those two, see 1Co15:23.
“And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Power, divine, holy power and it came in the 1st century – its establishment is not yet future as you insist. Christian’s entered the kingdom of God during the apostolic period just as Christians today enter that same kingdom.


Again, where is the Scriptural evidence for this claim? Sorry but this is totally random there are 30 mentions of the "throne of David" in the Bible, all refering to Jerusalem, and confirmed by Christ when he calls Jerusalem the "City of the Great King". The "Third Heaven" exists in Jewish literature but certainly does not have David's throne in it.
Again, you confuse the material for the spiritual. Jesus set on David's spiritual throne at the time of His ascension and exaltation (Acts 2) His throne is David's spiritual throne in heaven of which David’s earthy throne was only a simple type.
To sit on his throne - To be his successor in his kingdom. Saul was the first of the kings of Israel. The kingdom was taken away from him and his posterity, and conferred on David and his descendants. It was determined that it should be continued in the family of David, and no more go out of his family, as it had from the family of Saul. The unique characteristic of David as king, or what distinguished him from the other kings of the earth, was that he reigned over the people of God. Israel was his chosen people, and the kingdom was over that nation. Hence, he that should reign over the people of God, though in a manner somewhat different from David, would be regarded as occupying his throne, and as being his successor. The form of the administration might be varied, but it would still retain its prime characteristic as being a reign over the people of God. In this sense the Messiah sits on the throne of David. He is his descendant and successor. He has an empire over all the friends of the Most High. And as that kingdom is destined to fill the earth, and to be eternal in the heavens, so it may be said that it is a kingdom which shall have no end. It is spiritual, but not the less real; defended not with carnal weapons, but not the less really defended; advanced not by the sword and the din of arms, but not the less really advanced against principalities, and powers, and spiritual wickedness in high places; not under a visible head and earthly monarch, but not less really under the Captain of salvation and the King of kings. ~ Albert Barnes
Well it didn't stop Melchizedek on earth, why should it stop Jesus on earth?
Do you deny what is writen in the word of God? “For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law” (Heb. 8:4). It can’t be any clearer than this. How do you reconcile this biblical fact with your position. How can Christ reign on earth from Jerusalem and still be our Great High Priest?


But what is difficult to stomach is the scenario you have been teaching on this forum : that Christ directly, himself, or his angels, comes to wipe out mankind and destroy the planet…
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power…” (2 Thessalonians 1)

“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat…” (2 Peter 3:12)
I called it "Left Behind" not because I was specifically associating your view here with those trashy books, but simply because I find it difficult to associate a Bible term "rapture" (1Thess4:17, Olivet gathering), with the doctrines of the "rapture" (e.g. escape of Christians, suffering for the rest of mankind, destruction of the planet, etc) circulating in popular Christianity today.
Again, you will need to take up your protest with those who are taken in by those “trashy books”.


Whatever we call it, you are teaching that Christ comes back to exterminate mankind and give no chance even to the most innocent. Has it occured to you that some of those children will be the ones in the pre-school class at your own church's Sunday School? Or do you think that Christ will only kill babies abroad?
I only present what is written in the Book - Jesus is coming back the second time to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ." You didn’t answer the questions - Isn’t our God “gracious and merciful to children that cannot discern between their right hand and their left"? Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment? Was God justified in destroying Israel and her people, including the innocents - “does the potter not have power over the clay?”

Steven3
Nov 21st 2007, 06:23 AM
Hi LostHorizon


I said "occur elsewhere in the Bible". If it only occurs once then refusing to consider the other uses in Jewish literature outside the Bible, and guessing at a meaning with no reference point is not a sound method for reading Paul. I already asked for scriptural evidence for this claim? Once is all it takes and I have little or no interest in “Jewish literature outside the Bible” – obviously that is where you get many of your ideas. Do you deny that Paul was taken to the "Third Heaven" per the Bible?But you have used “Jewish literature outside the Bible”yourself in interpreting Olivet as related to AD70. Wisely so, as without Josephus we'd have no way of knowing that those details of Christ's prophecy were fulfilled. Also you have no problem with going to and quoting Adam Clarke or Albert Barnes who are also outside the Bible. Surely 1st Century documentary evidence mentioning "Third Heaven" in texts contemporary with Paul are more relevant than the opinions of 18th Century Methodists and 19th Century Presbyterians on terminology such as "Third Heaven" - they're just guessing at random the same as any 21st Century reader might do.


The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Power, divine, holy power and it came in the 1st century – its establishment is not yet future as you insist. Christian’s entered the kingdom of God during the apostolic period just as Christians today enter that same kingdom.Verse evidence? How can Christians "inherit" something they already have? Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



Again, where is the Scriptural evidence for this claim? Sorry but this is totally random there are 30 mentions of the "throne of David" in the Bible, all refering to Jerusalem, and confirmed by Christ when he calls Jerusalem the "City of the Great King". The "Third Heaven" exists in Jewish literature but certainly does not have David's throne in it. Again, you confuse the material for the spiritual. Jesus set on David's spiritual throne at the time of His ascension and exaltation (Acts 2) His throne is David's spiritual throne in heaven of which David’s earthy throne was only a simple type.

To sit on his throne - To be his successor in his kingdom. Saul was the first of the kings of Israel. The kingdom was taken away from him and his posterity, and conferred on David and his descendants. It was determined that it should be continued in the family of David, and no more go out of his family, as it had from the family of Saul. The unique characteristic of David as king, or what distinguished him from the other kings of the earth, was that he reigned over the people of God. Israel was his chosen people, and the kingdom was over that nation. Hence, he that should reign over the people of God, though in a manner somewhat different from David, would be regarded as occupying his throne, and as being his successor. The form of the administration might be varied, but it would still retain its prime characteristic as being a reign over the people of God. In this sense the Messiah sits on the throne of David. He is his descendant and successor. He has an empire over all the friends of the Most High. And as that kingdom is destined to fill the earth, and to be eternal in the heavens, so it may be said that it is a kingdom which shall have no end. It is spiritual, but not the less real; defended not with carnal weapons, but not the less really defended; advanced not by the sword and the din of arms, but not the less really advanced against principalities, and powers, and spiritual wickedness in high places; not under a visible head and earthly monarch, but not less really under the Captain of salvation and the King of kings. ~ Albert Barnes

Albert Barnes is not "scriptural evidence". We need to see evidence from the Bible. This isn't a case of "Third Heaven" where the "throne of David" is not mentioned elsewhere. And even if it was Barnes is not contemporary with the NT.



Well it didn't stop Melchizedek on earth, why should it stop Jesus on earth? Do you deny what is writen in the word of God? “For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law” (Heb. 8:4). It can’t be any clearer than this. How do you reconcile this biblical fact with your position. How can Christ reign on earth from Jerusalem and still be our Great High Priest?No I don't deny Heb 8:4, all I'm doing, may God forgive me, is reading the whole chapter - Heb 8:4 refers to an Aaronic priest, not one after the order of Melchizedek. Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This relates to one of those unanswered questions: How can Jesus drink wine with the disciples his kingdom? :rolleyes:





Statistically, we must assume there were tens of thousands of infants and young children among those slaughtered. That number greatly surpasses the innocents slaughtered by Herod. Isn’t our God “gracious and merciful to children that cannot discern between their right hand and their left" per Holy Writ? Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment? Was God justified in destroying Israel and her people, including the innocents?Yes, but Titus Flavius killing children incidentally is no different from Sennacherib or Nebuchadnezzar destroying Samaria or Jerusalem the 2nd time. It's also possible that God could use the Arabs or Russia or USA to destroy Jerusalem a 3rd time in the final countdown to Christ's return. That happens, and no one can talk back to God about it. But what is difficult to stomach is the scenario you have been teaching on this forum : that Christ directly, himself, or his angels, comes to wipe out mankind and destroy the planet - including half a billion childrenYou didn’t answer the questions - Isn't our God “gracious and merciful to children that cannot discern between their right hand and their left"? Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment?Sorry, my attempt to answer was the Titus Flavius comment above but it got out of sequence in the quote boxes. I did my best, but I'm happy to answer again, that's the beauty of a two-way discussion. I don't recognise the phrase in quotation marks, but I assume you're quoting Jonah 4:11 And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?” Yes God was merciful, he didn't destroy Nineveh, he didn't kill their children, and the Ninevites will rise when Christ returns (Matt 12:41). How do you think Jonah 4:11 supports your view that Christ is going to "come with the clouds" only to destroy the planet, and will not give the infant children of Christians (let alone Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus) the chance that God gave the under-20s in Numbers? Or the chance God gave the infants of Nineveh? As for "eternal punishment" (which in 2Thess 1:9 means annihilation), that's from the sheep and goats chapter. As I said I don't believe in a universal judgment at the moment of Christ's return - I don't believe he will walk through the maternity wards going "sheep, goat, goat, sheep". I don't really believe, as I said, that Hindus and Buddhists who don't "mock" or "oppose" the Gospel (Peter's 1Pe4 and Paul's 2Th1 criteria) will be judged either. The way I see it Christ comes back to judge Christians, Jews and Muslims, not religions that don't even know of him. Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. Likewise Christ comes first to punish those who say "Lord, Lord" and do wonders in his name, not Buddhists.

I asked these on the Ezekiel 43 thread:

The Bible doesn't "specifically" say that. I fear that you're in denial of the following questions, among others:

- How long does Jesus reign between 1Co15:23 to 24?
- Why would Jesus literally set fire to God's house? 2Pe3:10
- Why is David still dead? Acts 2:30-34
- Who is the Great King?
- What is the city of the Great King?
- Why did God promise Abraham land "to you" and never deliver.
- When will Jesus drink wine with the disciples in his kingdom?
- Why raise the dead if their immortal souls are literally under an altar?
- What's going to happen to children when Jesus returns?
- etc.

God bless
Steven

It would help if you could please at least address these two:

Q1. How can Jesus drink wine with the disciples his kingdom?

Q2. How can Christians "inherit" a kingdom they already have?

God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 21st 2007, 01:56 PM
...Also you have no problem with going to and quoting Adam Clarke or Albert Barnes who are also outside the Bible. Surely 1st Century documentary evidence mentioning "Third Heaven" in texts contemporary with Paul are more relevant than the opinions of 18th Century Methodists and 19th Century Presbyterians on terminology such as "Third Heaven" - they're just guessing at random the same as any 21st Century reader might do.

I believe that biblical scholars like Barnes and Clarke, while not inspired writers, certainly include in their commentary much more than “just guessing at random” as you are suggesting. You didn’t answer the question - Do you deny that Paul was taken to the "Third Heaven" per the Bible?


Verse evidence? How can Christians "inherit" something they already have? Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
I have addressed this already – from our vantage point in human history the kingdom of God is past, present and future. It is a kingdom that God purposed “from the foundation of the world” and the ultimate and final achievement of His eternal purpose will be on that Day when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the Father and time will be no more.
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians 2: 7-9
Albert Barnes is not "scriptural evidence". We need to see evidence from the Bible. This isn't a case of "Third Heaven" where the "throne of David" is not mentioned elsewhere. And even if it was Barnes is not contemporary with the NT.I didn’t introduce Barnes’ commentary as "scriptural evidence", I introduced it because he correctly understands the location of the spiritual “throne of David” – in heaven where Jesus dwells today as both king and priest.


No I don't deny Heb 8:4, all I'm doing, may God forgive me, is reading the whole chapter - Heb 8:4 refers to an Aaronic priest, not one after the order of Melchizedek. Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
So it is your position that Jesus, who rules on His throne in heaven as both king and high priest, can fulfill His priestly duties if He dwells on this earth?
“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession” (Heb. 4:14)

"For if he [Christ] were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law" (Heb. 8: 4).


The way I see it Christ comes back to judge Christians, Jews and Muslims, not religions that don't even know of him.
Doesn’t Christ come back “with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ…” Do Jews, Muslims and Hindus acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus? Is our God today the same God who destroyed the human population by the Flood? Were there not hundreds of thousands of "infant children" among those who perished? Did God “walk through the maternity wards going sheep, goat, goat, sheep" during this deluge? Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment? Was God justified in destroying the wicked at the time of Noah? “Does the potter not have power over the clay?”



It would help if you could please at least address these two:

Q1. How can Jesus drink wine with the disciples his kingdom?
"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."Jesus states He is through with earthly rites but He points to a future time at the “marriage supper of the Lamb” when He will drink it new with His diciples – when He comes to "deliver up the kingdom to the Father". Until that day we have the command to "Do this in remembrance of me" until the Lord comes the second time.


Q2. How can Christians "inherit" a kingdom they already have?
See above.

Firstfruits
Nov 21st 2007, 03:28 PM
For those who need to know the location of the third heaven please read the following scriptures.

2 Cor 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Lk 23:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Cor 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

This is the Heavenly/New Jerusalem.

Steven3
Nov 22nd 2007, 03:04 AM
Hi LH
Again, Paul woke up in the morning with his feet on terra firma, so a curious mention of a vision of Third Heaven does not in itself prove that Christ will destroy the planet.
I believe that biblical scholars like Barnes and Clarke, while not inspired writers, certainly include in their commentary much more than “just guessing at random” as you are suggesting. Well, I did look at Clarke and Barnes before saying that, because I know you put a lot of trust in them:

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke2cor12.htm
The third heaven-The Jews talk of seven heavens, and Mohammed has received the same from them; but these are not only fabulous but absurd. I shall enumerate those of the Jews....
All this is sufficiently unphilosophical, and in several cases ridiculous.


http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=012
To the third heaven. The Jews sometimes speak of seven heavens, and Mohammed has borrowed this idea from the Jews. But the Bible speaks of but three heavens; and among the Jews in the apostolic ages, also, the heavens were divided into three:
(1.) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.
(2.) The starry heavens--the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated. (3.) The heavens beyond the stars. ...
As their opinions throw no light on this passage, it is unnecessary to detail them here.
And having quickly dismissed documentary evidence and contemporary Jewish context, exactly the context that Paul was dealing with against the Jewish teachers and their visions in Corinth, Clarke and Barnes confidently invent their own meaning. So I stand by "just guessing at random". Particularly Barnes who seems to have an allergy to ever giving Bible references. Although of course in their day only a small fraction of NT background literature was available, and the some of the most relevant texts which mention "the Third Heaven" hadn't been discovered, much less translated into English, but given the attitude of both writers, they'd probably do the same today.


You didn’t answer the question - Do you deny that Paul was taken to the "Third Heaven" per the Bible?To make a discussion work answering questions shouldn't be a one way street. I did answer it, twice, this is the third time ;) - I said that since Paul didn't know whether it was in the body or out of the body, neither can anyone else. Unless of course we are guided at the rest of the teaching of the 66 books where no one ever has an out-of-body experience, so the rest of the Bible tells us that it was simply a vision. It's not impossible that it was the same vision of Christ he had in Corinth in Acts, telling him to stay in Corinth, which would explain why he's expecting the Corinthians to understand what he's talking about. Or it could be a vision not documented in Acts, but then it would mean nothing to the Corinthians.



I didn’t introduce Barnes’ commentary as "scriptural evidence", I introduced it because he correctly understands the location of the spiritual “throne of David” – in heaven where Jesus dwells today as both king and priest. But I asked for "scriptural evidence". A paste from a commentator who doesn't support his opinions with Bible verses doesn't count. Particularly one who was so opposed to Christ returning "in like manner" as the angels promised the disciples Acts 1:11.


So it is your position that Jesus, who rules on His throne in heaven as both king and high priest, can fulfill His priestly duties if He dwells on this earth?...


"For if he [Christ] were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law" (Heb. 8: 4). Yes, as I said twice before, Melchizedek did, why not? ;)You quoted Heb 8:4 once before and I said before that if we read the whole section, Heb 8, we'll see Heb 8:4 is comparing Christ to the Aaronic priests to show that he was not after the order of Aaron, but of the order of Melchizedek. Now Melchizedek was a king and a priest on earth at the same time. So how does a verse saying Jesus is not an Aaronic priest, but instead like Melchizedek prevent Jesus doing on earth what Melchizedek did on earth? Now let me ask a question - and please answer it ;). Was Melchizedek a king and priest on earth, yes or no?


Doesn’t Christ come back “with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ…” Do Jews, Muslims and Hindus acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus? We've been here before, and before you did not quote the beginning of that section of 2Thess1, and before I noted that the context both here and 1Pe4 talks of pagans who are deliberately opposing or "mocking" the Gospel. Neither passage naturally extends to a baby whose only sin is to be born in Asia rather than the West. Nor does it extend to an infant in one of our own Sunday School kindergarten classes.


(1) Is our God today the same God who destroyed the human population by the Flood? (2) Were there not hundreds of thousands of "infant children" among those who perished? (3) Did God “walk through the maternity wards going sheep, goat, goat, sheep" during this deluge? (1) Yes and no. (2) Yes (3) No.

(1) The God of the NT is not exactly the same as the God of the OT. He himself does not change, but his dealings with men evidently can do - as illustrated by circumcision etc. The same God who flooded the earth also gave the rainbow and also said Is 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(2) Correct, God did drown hundreds of thousands of infant children in the flood.
(3) And correct, no God did not make a specific judgment between sheep and goats - that is entrusted to Christ at his coming when both Noah, and Noah's neighbours who heard and ignored and drowned will rise to stand before Christ (John 14:6) when he returns according to Acts 24:15, Luke 14:14, John 5:26-29, Dan 12:2, Heb11:39-40, 1Co15:23, etc etc etc. So there are at least four significant differences between the flood and the fire of 2Thessalonians1:

i. the drowning was not the final absolute judgment, that still waits. Even if only 8 were saved on the boat, in type, in figure, it's not totally out of the question that another 2 or 3 who drowned might rise to be judged and enter the kingdom. God being merciful as well as just. Likewise it isn't guaranteed that Noah's 3 sons will all inherit the kingdom. Who knows. But Christ's judgment is absolutely final.
ii. Had Noah had grandchildren God would have allowed him to take them on the ark. Even if they were newborn, because they still had a life to live and choices to make
iii. the fundamental character of the flood and the kingdom of God are different - the flood was not the coming of the Saviour of the World and Prince of Peace - "peace on earth and goodwill towards men". The flood was not the "restoration of all things" Acts 3:21, and the flood was not the "coming of the Kingdom of God".
iv. the flood did not destroy the planet so completely that the meek would never inherit the earth, Abraham would never inherit what was promised to him personally ("land I will give to you and your descendants"), and that the Great King would never sit on his throne in Jerusalem. Those are four reasons why Christ would not kill the infants of the earth, even though God did drown them in the flood. The two events are not identical, even if one is a type of the other.


Do you really think He condemns those innocents to eternal punishment? As I said before I do not believe in "eternal punishment" except in scriptural terms "eternal destruction" = annihilation. That's the same as your own view isn't it? I didn't read you as saying that you believe that the souls of babies (or adult Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists) destroyed when Christ comes will suffer for ever in some kind of "hell" (using the word in medieval not Bible sense).



It would help if you could please at least address these two:

Q1. How can Jesus drink wine with the disciples his kingdom?



"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."Jesus states He is through with earthly rites but He points to a future time at the “marriage supper of the Lamb” when He will drink it new with His diciples – when He comes to "deliver up the kingdom to the Father". Until that day we have the command to "Do this in remembrance of me" until the Lord comes the second time.So "in my Father's Kingdom" means "after I have destroyed the planet"? Basically what we're seeing then is two options:
(Your view) present kingdom = church, future kingdom = up to heaven
(My view) present kingdom = church, future kingdom = down from heaven

So what was all that discussion earlier about whether the kingdom has come and quoting Col.1 "transfered into the kingdom of his beloved son"? It's a red herring isn't it? What you and I believe about the present and future kingdom is exactly the same with only one difference: You believe that Christ will upon his coming with the clouds annihilate the world's population by burning up the solar system, and I believe there's a transitional period (whether we count a generation as 40 years, 120 years, or a Methuselah generation) so that babies (of Evangelicals as well as Buddhists Muslims and Hindus) have the chance to grow to the age of responsibility.



Q2. How can Christians "inherit" a kingdom they already have?See aboveSee above, meaning same answer as the wine? meaning that they "inherit" the kingdom by being raptured to heaven when the planet is destroyed?

Many thanks for answering those two questions, I understand your view, and that makes significant progress into that list of outstanding questions.

- How long does Jesus reign between 1Co15:23 to 24?
- Why would Jesus literally set fire to God's house? 2Pe3:10
- Why is David still dead? Acts 2:30-34
- Who is the Great King?
- What is the city of the Great King?
- Why did God promise Abraham land "to you" and never deliver.
- When will Jesus drink wine with the disciples in his kingdom?
- Why raise the dead if their immortal souls are literally under an altar?
- What's going to happen to children when Jesus returns?
- etc.


I suppose the real issue here, for your good self at least, is primarily the souls under the altar. If Abraham and David's souls are literally under an altar in heaven, then indeed why would God consider it necessary to fulfill verses like Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Instead when Christ comes the earth will be destroyed, and Christ will ensure that it is never filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. That isn't said to be funny, I understand OT prophetical verses shouldn't be taken literally, but the gap between what the OT says and the teaching that Christ destroys the planet is too big a gap for me to jump over.

However given the choice between taking "the meek will inherit the earth" literally, and taking the souls under the altar literally, you I hope understand why I prefer to take the Sermon on the Mount literally.

God bless, and peace on earth and goodwill towards men ;)
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 22nd 2007, 05:25 AM
...Again, Paul woke up in the morning with his feet on terra firma, so a curious mention of a vision of Third Heaven does not in itself prove that Christ will destroy the planet.

But the fact remains, if we are to believe what is recorded in the Bible, Paul (in or out of body) was taken to the abode of God – “the Third Heaven” – where he lucidly and audibly “heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." And yes - "Christ will destroy the planet" - when He comes again the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed per the Bible.


I said that since Paul didn't know whether it was in the body or out of the body, neither can anyone else. Unless of course we are guided at the rest of the teaching of the 66 books where no one ever has an out-of-body experience, so the rest of the Bible tells us that it was simply a vision.
Again – it doesn’t really matter if his experience in Heaven was in or out of body – the fact remains, it was a real experience and what he saw and what he records by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit took place.


You quoted Heb 8:4 once before and I said before that if we read the whole section, Heb 8, we'll see Heb 8:4 is comparing Christ to the Aaronic priests to show that he was not after the order of Aaron, but of the order of Melchizedek. Now Melchizedek was a king and a priest on earth at the same time. So how does a verse saying Jesus is not an Aaronic priest, but instead like Melchizedek prevent Jesus doing on earth what Melchizedek did on earth?
The tabernacle is in heaven – it is a heavenly reality. The earthly sanctuary only represented the real and heavenly holy place, i.e., the “true tabernacle” – the one “which the Lord pitched” is in heaven where our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, “is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens”. He ministers as both king and priest in that realm fulfilling Psalm 110 - a priest ruling as king at God's right hand. As High Priest Christ entered the Holy Place to obtain eternal redemption by offering His own blood as our sacrifice (Heb 9)
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (Hebrews 8:1-2)Our High Priest today is enthroned at the Father's right hand on David’s throne in heaven. Today he officiates in the true tabernacle of heaven and according to the NT there once was an earthly priesthood ordained for the earthly tabernacle but Christ was excluded from that priesthood because "if he were on earth he would not be a priest" (Heb 8:4). The throne of the Christ (at God’s right hand) and His priesthood are in heaven now and that throne will be there through eternity.


Now let me ask a question - and please answer it. Was Melchizedek a king and priest on earth, yes or no?
Answer:
“For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him…” (Hebrews 7:1).Question for you – do you have any scriptural support that Jesus Christ will be the priestly minister in a sanctuary (tabernacle) pitched by man on this earth in the city of Jerusalem and not the tabernacle “which the Lord pitched” in heaven?
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (Hebrews 8:1-2)
The God of the NT is not exactly the same as the God of the OT…

God did drown hundreds of thousands of infant children in the flood…

Those are four reasons why Christ would not kill the infants of the earth, even though God did drown them in the flood. The two events are not identical, even if one is a type of the other.
God is the same yesterday, today, and forever - the Godhead act in unison. God allowed a worldwide flood that drowned millions of babies and children; God allowed babies to be slain due to Herod's jealous rant; and at the Second Coming infants will parish,
“…as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:36-39).
As I said before I do not believe in "eternal punishment" except in scriptural terms "eternal destruction" = annihilation. That's the same as your own view isn't it? No – that is not my view at all. Like your view on “soul sleep”, your equally aberrant view on “annihilation” is non-biblical but we are not allowed to discuss those topics on this thread per forum rules.


I didn't read you as saying that you believe that the souls of babies (or adult Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists) destroyed when Christ comes will suffer for ever in some kind of "hell" (using the word in medieval not Bible sense).
I certainly do not believe that the souls of babies will suffer – “for such is the kingdom of God”. You already know my answer regarding the souls of those who know not God and obey not the gospel of Christ – the wicked go to everlasting punishment, the righteous go to heaven (not a re-roofed earth) for life everlasting.


So "in my Father's Kingdom" means "after I have destroyed the planet"? Basically what we're seeing then is two options:
(Your view) present kingdom = church, future kingdom = up to heaven
(My view) present kingdom = church, future kingdom = down from heaven

So what was all that discussion earlier about whether the kingdom has come and quoting Col.1 "transfered into the kingdom of his beloved son"? It's a red herring isn't it?
No herring – there are those who believe the kingdom of Christ has not come yet – my “transferred” remarks were reserved for those who are in that category. Btw – the correct biblical answer to the above is - present kingdom = church, future kingdom = up to heaven…


What you and I believe about the present and future kingdom is exactly the same with only one difference: You believe that Christ will upon his coming with the clouds annihilate the world's population by burning up the solar system, and I believe there's a transitional period (whether we count a generation as 40 years, 120 years, or a Methuselah generation) so that babies (of Evangelicals as well as Buddhists Muslims and Hindus) have the chance to grow to the age of responsibility.
I must respectfully disagree – our thinking on the “present and future kingdom” is not exactly the same by any means. Among our many other differences, I believe that Jesus reigns on David’s spiritual throne in heaven today – you do not.


I suppose the real issue here, for your good self at least, is primarily the souls under the altar. If Abraham and David's souls are literally under an altar in heaven, then indeed why would God consider it necessary to fulfill verses like Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
Of course the real issue involves much more than your statement above and I have never stated that the souls of Abraham and David were under the “alter in heaven”. I said the biblical position maintains the “souls of those martyred for the cause of Christ” were under the alter and they were the ones communicating with their Lord - crying out, "How long Lord, Holy and True before you avenge us?"

Firstfruits
Nov 22nd 2007, 12:36 PM
New heavens and earth.



Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Is 65:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy
Is 65:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.


Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.


Please note, this is not a vision, thus saith the Lord, this is his will.


This is the New Jerusalem, promised by God.

Unless God is not to do as he has promised.

So do we believe Gods promise?

Steven3
Nov 23rd 2007, 04:03 AM
Hi LH
But the fact remains, if we are to believe what is recorded in the Bible, Paul (in or out of body) was taken to the abode of God – “the Third Heaven” – where he lucidly and audibly “heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." Where are you getting the definition "abode of God" from? Since you refuse to look at the Jewish texts about the Seven Heavens, how do you know the abode of God is the Third Heaven? (I'll give you a clue, it's not).
Again – it doesn’t really matter if his experience in Heaven was in or out of body – the fact remains, it was a real experience and what he saw and what he records by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit took place. Q. When in the Bible did any prophet ever have a vision that was "a real experience and took place"?

Does it not strike you as odd that in order to overturn simple verses like "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" we need to resort to an obscure vision Paul had, a term from Jewish cosmology which he introduces in his battle with the Jewish "Superapostles" and their "visions" for the hearts and minds of the confused in Corinth? Isn't this scraping the barrel a bit?

Now let me ask a question - and please answer it. Was Melchizedek a king and priest on earth, yes or no? Answer:
“For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him…” (Hebrews 7:1).So the answer is yes, good. So then why do you say that Heb 8 which says that Christ can be both a priest and king, proves that Christ cannot be a priest and king like Melchizedek?


Question for you – do you have any scriptural support that Jesus Christ will be the priestly minister in a sanctuary (tabernacle) pitched by man on this earth in the city of Jerusalem Me? I don't take thhe Ezekiel temple literally, i. because of Hebrews "once and for all", ii. because Jesus is already functioning as high priest, and iii. because when we see pictures in NT prophecy such as "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.." it is noteworthy that there is no sanctuary (naos) in the new Jerusalem because the Lamb is the temple (hieron). No sanctuary means no literal animal sacrifices.

Back to the OP - Acts 1, what we're discussing here is Christ coming to restore/fulfill the kingdom, not restore/fulfill the temple - he's already done that.



What you and I believe about the present and future kingdom is exactly the same with only one difference: You believe that Christ will upon his coming with the clouds annihilate the world's population by burning up the solar system, and I believe there's a transitional period (whether we count a generation as 40 years, 120 years, or a Methuselah generation) so that babies (of Evangelicals as well as Buddhists Muslims and Hindus) have the chance to grow to the age of responsibility. I must respectfully disagree – our thinking on the “present and future kingdom” is not exactly the same by any means. Among our many other differences, I believe that Jesus reigns on David’s spiritual throne in heaven today – you do not.Well I won't again point out that all 30 uses of the "throne of David" say Albert Barnes' opinion is without any scriptural foundation, but in some ways it's a red herring, since beyond that issue, you still believe that there is a future kingdom to be "inherited", and that believers "inherit the kingdom" when Christ destroys the Matt 5:35 "city of the Great King". And all this based on what? Q. What single piece of verse evidence do you have for this view beyond a reading of 2Peter3 that clashes with Peter's own prophecy in Acts 3:21?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 23rd 2007, 05:02 AM
...Where are you getting the definition "abode of God" from? Since you refuse to look at the Jewish texts about the Seven Heavens, how do you know the abode of God is the Third Heaven? (I'll give you a clue, it's not).

Abode: A dwelling place.

God’s dwelling place is in the “Third Heaven” where Paul was taken and heard things that were unlawful to repeat.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago---whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows---such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2
Q. When in the Bible did any prophet ever have a vision that was "a real experience and took place"?
Paul when he was taken up into the third heaven.


Does it not strike you as odd that in order to overturn simple verses like "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" we need to resort to an obscure vision Paul had, a term from Jewish cosmology which he introduces in his battle with the Jewish "Superapostles" and their "visions" for the hearts and minds of the confused in Corinth? Isn't this scraping the barrel a bit?No, it doesn’t strike me as odd at all - Paul’s experience in the third heaven where God dwells (the abode of God) it pretty well detailed, coherent and logical – right?


So then why do you say that Heb 8 which says that Christ can be both a priest and king, proves that Christ cannot be a priest and king like Melchizedek?Christ is a king and He is "a priest after the order of Melchizedek" – Heb 8 simply states Christ cannot be a priest on earth. He is forever our High Priest enthroned at the Father's right hand on David’s throne in heaven. He officiates in the “true tabernacle of heaven” of which the earthly tabernacle was only a type.
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man...if he were on earth he would not be a priest" (Heb 8).
Me? I don't take thhe Ezekiel temple literally, i. because of Hebrews "once and for all", ii. because Jesus is already functioning as high priest, and iii. because when we see pictures in NT prophecy such as "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.." it is noteworthy that there is no sanctuary (naos) in the new Jerusalem because the Lamb is the temple (hieron). No sanctuary means no literal animal sacrifices.Then your answer is – no you do not have scriptural support that Jesus Christ will ever be a priest on this earth in the city of Jerusalem??


Well I won't again point out that all 30 uses of the "throne of David" say Albert Barnes' opinion is without any scriptural foundation, but in some ways it's a red herring, since beyond that issue, you still believe that there is a future kingdom to be "inherited", and that believers "inherit the kingdom" when Christ destroys the Matt 5:35 "city of the Great King". And all this based on what? Q. What single piece of verse evidence do you have for this view beyond a reading of 2Peter3 that clashes with Peter's own prophecy in Acts 3:21?
I have covered this numerous times before – the kingdom established after the Lord’s ascension into heaven is the same kingdom I was "translated into" at my conversion – and it is the same kingdom to be delivered up to God by the Lord at His second coming. After the kingdom is delivered up "the earth and all its works” will be destroyed by God per Holy Writ. I have provided scriptural support for that scenario in my many posts on this subject. If you want to discuss any of them in more detail I will be happy to oblige.

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:58 AM
Hi LHWhere are you getting the definition "abode of God" from? Since you refuse to look at the Jewish texts about the Seven Heavens, how do you know the abode of God is the Third Heaven? (I'll give you a clue, it's not).Q. When in the Bible did any prophet ever have a vision that was "a real experience and took place"?


Steven

2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Where, according to the scriptures is:

Paradise?

The tree of life?


According to the following does God have another abode?

Is 66:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Acts 7:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Steven3
Nov 24th 2007, 01:26 AM
Hi Firstfruits :)

Where, according to the scriptures is:

Paradise?

The tree of life?Gen 2:8 is the first verse in the Bible to use paradeisos, and most OT references follow that (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272) (please click). But that's the scriptures. If we want to understand what Paul is saying to the brethren disturbed in Corinth by the visions of the Jewish teachers we'd have to understand a little about the Jewish teachings on the "Third Heaven" which Paul is referring to.

Basically there is a contradiction - in the OT the Bible use of paradeisos refers to (i) Eden, (ii) any royal orchard, (iii) Eden restored. However the usage in 2Co12 is an outlier, in the most literal sense of the term, because it lies outside the Bible. And the Jewish teacher's use in Corinth contradicts with Bible usage, which is why it isn't a good idea for believers to seize upon 2Co12 and let go of the dozen other paradeisos verses.


According to the following does God have another abode?No. Of course Heaven is God's abode. Which is why 2Co12 doesn't say "God's abode". Paul is careful not to claim that this "Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574)" (see thread) or "Paradise" is God's abode. On this both Scripture (OT) and the Jewish teachers in Corinth agreed - neither claimed that "Third Heaven" or "paradise" (Jewish mythological sense) was God's abode.

If Paul had equated "heaven" with "garden" then yes, he'd have been saying that the garden was heaven, heaven was the garden. Which is why "third" is there, to prevent people reading that.

The Rev 2:7 garden is what those who "meet" and welcome in (apantesis) Christ as he comes down to us go to after "meeting" him in the air. If paradise was itself "in the air" then Paul in 1Thess4:17 wouldn't use the noun "to meet" (to welcome in, apantesis), because the "air" would be the final destination, Christ would not be setting foot on the Mount of Olives as per Acts 1:11. But he did use "meet/welcome in" (apantesis), so we know that it is not. 1Thess4:17 shows that he comes with the clouds, stands on the Mount of Olives, and restores the garden where it was before, namely on earth.

God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 24th 2007, 02:06 AM
...Of course Heaven is God's abode. Which is why 2Co12 doesn't say "God's abode". Paul is careful not to claim that this "Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574)" (see thread) or "Paradise" is God's abode. On this both Scripture (OT) and the Jewish teachers in Corinth agreed - neither claimed that "Third Heaven" or "paradise" (Jewish mythological sense) was God's abode.

The concept of the “third heaven” is not some part of Jewish mysticism as Steven appears to be suggesting. It is simply part of God’s revelation to man. The “first heaven” is the earth’s atmosphere where the “foul of the air fly”; the “second heaven” is that vast part of the physical universe we refer to as “outer space”; and the “third heaven” where Paul was transported is the spiritual realm where the "throne of God" is located,
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. (Rev 15:2)

Steven3
Nov 24th 2007, 02:15 AM
Hi Lost Horizon
How are you doing :) good I hope.


...Where are you getting the definition "abode of God" from? Since you refuse to look at the Jewish texts about the Seven Heavens, how do you know the abode of God is the Third Heaven? (I'll give you a clue, it's not).Abode: A dwelling place.

God’s dwelling place is in the “Third Heaven” Sorry, you've lost me. What version are you using? Because neither the ESV nor KJV has "abode" or "dwell" in 2Co12:1-4.



Q. When in the Bible did any prophet ever have a vision that was "a real experience and took place"? Paul when he was taken up into the third heaven.That's my point, never. The fact that no example in the whole 66 books springs to mind speaks for itself ;) A "vision", which is how Paul introduces what he saw in 1Co12:2, is what it says, "a vision" = a vision. As when Peter thought the cell door opening was "a vision" and so didn't budge initially.

Acts 12:9 And he went out and followed him. He did not know that what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.



Does it not strike you as odd that in order to overturn simple verses like "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" we need to resort to an obscure vision Paul had, a term from Jewish cosmology which he introduces in his battle with the Jewish "Superapostles" and their "visions" for the hearts and minds of the confused in Corinth? Isn't this scraping the barrel a bit? No, it doesn’t strike me as odd at all - Paul’s experience in the third heaven where God dwells (the abode of God) it pretty well detailed, coherent and logical – right?Sorry, I'm still lost on this so again I've red-inked the part which is not in ESV and KJV. I need to know what version you are getting this from. Or maybe a different chapter?




So then why do you say that Heb 8 which says that Christ can be both a priest and king, proves that Christ cannot be a priest and king like Melchizedek? Christ is a king and He is "a priest after the order of Melchizedek" – Heb 8 simply states Christ cannot be a priest on earth.Well, if it meant "cannot be" then it would say, "cannot be" or "will not be". But all it says is that Christ currently is not:

Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth (currently - clearly preAD70), he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law (again, can only have been written in the AD60s). 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

There's no "cannot be", simply a statement of what is.


Me? I don't take the Ezekiel temple literally, i. because of Hebrews "once and for all", ii. because Jesus is already functioning as high priest, and iii. because when we see pictures in NT prophecy such as "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.." it is noteworthy that there is no sanctuary (naos) in the new Jerusalem because the Lamb is the temple (hieron). No sanctuary means no literal animal sacrifices. Then your answer is – no you do not have scriptural support that Jesus Christ will ever be a priest on this earth in the city of Jerusalem??Certainly not in the Levitical sense. In a more general sense, a Melchizedekean king-priest, I don't see a clear verse either way, and consequently don't have an opinion either way. I'm simply saying your use of Heb 8:4 is out of context (and by the way this seems to be slippage from the Ezekiel temple thread). But back to the OP, Acts 1:11, there's nothing in the OT or NT Melchizedek verses that says Christ cannot come back in like manner:

(i) heaven (right hand)
(ii) coming with the clouds
(iii) feet will stand on the mount of Olives:

Psalm 110:
1 The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
2 The Lord sends forth from Zion
your mighty scepter.
Rule in the midst of your enemies!
3 Your people will offer themselves freely
on the day of your power,
in holy garments;
from the womb of the morning,
the dew of your youth will be yours.
4 The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at your right hand;
he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will execute judgment among the nations,
filling them with corpses;
he will shatter chiefs
over the wide earth.
7 He will drink from the brook by the way;
therefore he will lift up his head.

Matthew 22:44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet’?

Mark 12:36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.’

Hebrews 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?



Well I won't again point out that all 30 uses of the "throne of David" say Albert Barnes' opinion is without any scriptural foundation, but in some ways it's a red herring, since beyond that issue, you still believe that there is a future kingdom to be "inherited", and that believers "inherit the kingdom" when Christ destroys the Matt 5:35 "city of the Great King". And all this based on what? Q. What single piece of verse evidence do you have for this view beyond a reading of 2Peter3 that clashes with Peter's own prophecy in Acts 3:21? I have covered this numerous times before – the kingdom established after the Lord’s ascension into heaven is the same kingdom I was "translated into" at my conversion – and it is the same kingdom to be delivered up to God by the Lord at His second coming. After the kingdom is delivered up "the earth and all its works” will be destroyed by God per Holy Writ. I have provided scriptural support for that scenario in my many posts on this subject. If you want to discuss any of them in more detail I will be happy to oblige.You've claimed all the above numerous times, but have yet to provide a verse that mentions "the throne of David", or the "City of the Great King" being in heaven. You've provided verses which show aspects of Christ's rule and authority and power and dominion in this age, which no one denies, but you haven't provided any evidence to locate "throne of David" or "City of the Great King" in this age, nor evidence that the "throne of David" or "City of the Great King" will be in heaven in the age to come.

Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Nor, on coming with the clouds, provided any other verse beyond 2Peter3:10-13 to prove that "new heavens and new earth" are both of them to be located in heaven. If Peter had said "new heavens and new earth in heaven" then I'd believe it. But he didn't, and to me it just looks like Peter is quoting Isaiah:

Isaiah 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind. ...
66:22
“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

Isaiah didn't locate his new heavens and new earth in heaven, so why read that for Peter?
God bless
Steven






God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2007, 01:13 PM
Hi Firstfruits :)
Gen 2:8 is the first verse in the Bible to use paradeisos, and most OT references follow that (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272) (please click). But that's the scriptures. If we want to understand what Paul is saying to the brethren disturbed in Corinth by the visions of the Jewish teachers we'd have to understand a little about the Jewish teachings on the "Third Heaven" which Paul is referring to.

Basically there is a contradiction - in the OT the Bible use of paradeisos refers to (i) Eden, (ii) any royal orchard, (iii) Eden restored. However the usage in 2Co12 is an outlier, in the most literal sense of the term, because it lies outside the Bible. And the Jewish teacher's use in Corinth contradicts with Bible usage, which is why it isn't a good idea for believers to seize upon 2Co12 and let go of the dozen other paradeisos verses.

No. Of course Heaven is God's abode. Which is why 2Co12 doesn't say "God's abode". Paul is careful not to claim that this "Third Heaven (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574)" (see thread) or "Paradise" is God's abode. On this both Scripture (OT) and the Jewish teachers in Corinth agreed - neither claimed that "Third Heaven" or "paradise" (Jewish mythological sense) was God's abode.

If Paul had equated "heaven" with "garden" then yes, he'd have been saying that the garden was heaven, heaven was the garden. Which is why "third" is there, to prevent people reading that.

The Rev 2:7 garden is what those who "meet" and welcome in (apantesis) Christ as he comes down to us go to after "meeting" him in the air. If paradise was itself "in the air" then Paul in 1Thess4:17 wouldn't use the noun "to meet" (to welcome in, apantesis), because the "air" would be the final destination, Christ would not be setting foot on the Mount of Olives as per Acts 1:11. But he did use "meet/welcome in" (apantesis), so we know that it is not. 1Thess4:17 shows that he comes with the clouds, stands on the Mount of Olives, and restores the garden where it was before, namely on earth.

God bless
Steven

According to the following scriptures, would you agree that the tree of life and paradise are located in the New Jerusalem?

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The New Jerusalem according to John is not this present earth, but the new earth, so yes we shall inherit the earth but the new earth God has promised to create.

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Rev 21:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 22:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And there shall be no night there; And they need no cAndle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: And they shall reign for ever And ever. This is not a description of this present earth, would you agree?

This is were we are told we shall reign for ever and ever.

losthorizon
Nov 24th 2007, 03:17 PM
...Sorry, you've lost me. What version are you using? Because neither the ESV nor KJV has "abode" or "dwell" in 2Co12:1-4.

Hi Steven - I don’t think I ever stated that 2Co12:1-4 includes the Greek for “abode" or "dwell”. I did, however state that the third heaven where Paul was transported was the place of God’s abode, i.e., God’s “dwelling place”, aka, “the highest heaven”. This is not a hard concept - the first heaven is the sky where we see the "fouls of the air fly", the second heaven we see by night, i.e., the stars in the universe and the third heaven we see BY FAITH - the abode of God.


That's my point, never. The fact that no example in the whole 66 books springs to mind speaks for itself A "vision", which is how Paul introduces what he saw in 1Co12:2, is what it says, "a vision" = a vision. As when Peter thought the cell door opening was "a vision" and so didn't budge initially.
a "vision" = a vision yes and “the reality of God” = reality. The reality is this - whether in or out of his body, Paul was transported to the "highest heaven" where he witnessed the reality of what is recorded in Holy Writ. Just as the Holy Spirit physically transported Philip, after he had witnessed to the Eunuch, this same transportation could have been Paul’s reality. You cannot say it wasn’t and Paul was unsure but the fact remains - what he witnessed was real.


Well, if it meant "cannot be" then it would say, "cannot be" or "will not be". But all it says is that Christ currently is not:
What bible version are you using that says, "currently" - ESV or KJV? What the passage does say is exactly this – “Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all” and it means exactly what it states - if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all. And as we both agree - there are no references that Jesus will ever serve as priest on earth. Why? Because progressive revelation reveals to us that the “true tabernacle” – the one “which the Lord pitched” is in heaven where our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ, “is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens” where He forever ministers as both king and priest in that heavenly realm thus fulfilling Psalm 110 - a priest ruling as king at God's right hand.
“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession” (Heb. 4:14)


You've claimed all the above numerous times, but have yet to provide a verse that mentions "the throne of David", or the "City of the Great King" being in heaven. You've provided verses which show aspects of Christ's rule and authority and power and dominion in this age, which no one denies, but you haven't provided any evidence to locate "throne of David" or "City of the Great King" in this age, nor evidence that the "throne of David" or "City of the Great King" will be in heaven in the age to come.
Actually, I have provided scriptural support - Jesus was set on David's throne at the “right hand of God” at the time of His ascension and exaltation (Acts 2) – He now reigns as both king and high priest. His throne is David's spiritual throne in heaven of which David’s earthy throne was only a type just as David was an earthly “type of Jesus”. Jesus is both the descendant and successor of King David and His kingdom will fill the earth and it will be eternal in the heavens - a kingdom which shall have no end. It is a spiritual kingdom but it is a real kingdom that will defeat all “principalities, and powers”.

God raised Jesus up from the dead for the very purpose of sitting on David's throne. Whose throne do you believe Jesus sets on today at the right hand of God in heaven (trick question)?
For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2: 25-36

Firstfruits
Nov 26th 2007, 09:25 AM
What is the difference between the present Jerusalem and the new Jerusalem, according to the following?

Heb 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Gal 4:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Which one have we been promised?

2 Cor 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 01:57 AM
Hi LH
Hi Steven - I don’t think I ever stated that 2Co12:1-4 includes the Greek for “abode" or "dwell”. I did, however state that the third heaven where Paul was transported was the place of God’s abode, i.e., God’s “dwelling place”, aka, “the highest heaven”. This is not a hard concept - the first heaven is the sky where we see the "fouls of the air fly", the second heaven we see by night, i.e., the stars in the universe and the third heaven we see BY FAITH - the abode of God. Where in the Bible does it use any of these three terms? This is just a series of three random definitions until each has verse references in support.

I know you stated it. But you stating it does not make it so. The flow of your argument was as follows:




Originally Posted by Steven3 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1447767#post1447767)
...Again, Paul woke up in the morning with his feet on terra firma, so a curious mention of a vision of Third Heaven does not in itself prove that Christ will destroy the planet.
But the fact remains, if we are to believe what is recorded in the Bible, Paul (in or out of body) was taken to the abode of God – “the Third Heaven” – where he lucidly and audibly “heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." And yes - "Christ will destroy the planet" - when He comes again the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed per the Bible.

Where are you getting the definition "abode of God" from? Since you refuse to look at the Jewish texts about the Seven Heavens, how do you know the abode of God is the Third Heaven? (I'll give you a clue, it's not). Abode: A dwelling place.

God’s dwelling place is in the “Third Heaven” Sorry, you've lost me. What version are you using? Because neither the ESV nor KJV has "abode" or "dwell" in 2Co12:1-4.

All I see here is:
A. Assume (against all Jewish evidence) "Third Heaven" as God's abode
B. Assume (against all Bible evidence) all visions as real physical experiences.
C. Assume (against all Bible evidence) that where Paul goes in his visions is where the dead go .
If ABC are all true = then D the dead go direct to God's abode in heaven
And if D is true = then Christ comes back with the clouds only midair.

Thanks but I'll stick with reading the terms as OT uses them, and where the OT is silent, then consult contemporary Jewish usage.


As for the other points:
Again - you are reading Heb8:4 out of context. it only says Jesus as a priest in heaven is not like an Aaronic priest now, it doesn't say, he cannot combine both functions like a Melchizedek priest-king in future. Check the tense of the verbs in the chapter.

Again - Acts 2, doesn't mention "David's throne" as being in heaven or mention it any other way.
Actually, I have provided scriptural support - Jesus was set on David's throne at the “right hand of God” Scriptural support means a verse. Not an opinion. That's, I'm afraid, another example of circular reasoning:
A: Assume the right hand of God = David's throne
B: Christ is on the right of God now, until the restoration of all things Acts 3:21
C: Therefore David's throne has already been restored.
D: Therefore Christ cannot ever restore David's throne.

Sorry, but we need real verses to define terms such as "third heaven" and "David's throne". We can't just pick a meaning and insist on it.
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 02:11 AM
What is the difference between the present Jerusalem and the new Jerusalem, according to the following?The new one is currently awaiting its descent from heaven:

2 Thess 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven

Matt 5:35 Jerusalem.. the city of the Great King

Matt 23:37~9 O Jerusalem..... until you say

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Does Matt 5:35 refer to:
a. old Jerusalem
b. new Jerusalem
c. new-coming-down-on-top-of-old

losthorizon
Nov 27th 2007, 03:15 AM
...All I see here is:
A. Assume (against all Jewish evidence) "Third Heaven" as God's abode
B. Assume (against all Bible evidence) all visions as real physical experiences.
C. Assume (against all Bible evidence) that where Paul goes in his visions is where the dead go .
If ABC are all true = then D the dead go direct to God's abode in heaven
And if D is true = then Christ comes back with the clouds only midair.

Thanks but I'll stick with reading the terms as OT uses them, and where the OT is silent, then consult contemporary Jewish usage.

Steven – I am not sure what your problem is with the term “third heaven”. It has nothing to do with Gnostism, Jewish mysticsm, etc and it is a biblical term. Please refer to the word heaven, “shamayim” (Strong's H8064):

1) heaven, heavens, sky
a) visible heavens, sky
1) as abode of the stars
2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
b) Heaven (as the abode of God)

Please note Strong’s rendering – (1) heaven #1, the sky where the “fouls of the air fly”; (2) heaven #2, the abode of the stars – the universe; and (3) heaven #3, the abode of God. This is not difficult.


As for the other points:
Again - you are reading Heb8:4 out of context. it only says Jesus as a priest in heaven is not like an Aaronic priest now, it doesn't say, he cannot combine both functions like a Melchizedek priest-king in future. Check the tense of the verbs in the chapter.
No – not out of context – it plainly states the Christ cannot be a priest on earth and there are no scriptural examples that He will ever serve as priest on earth for reasons I have already listed. Does your theology require that Christ perform priestly duties on earth at some time in the future or will He forever be our Great High Priest in heaven where the “true tabernacle” – the one “pitched by the LORD” will exist forever? ;)


Again - Acts 2, doesn't mention "David's throne" as being in heaven or mention it any other way.
You have already agreed with me that Jesus reigns at God’s right hand in heaven today – on whose throne does He sit and reign? Where is the throne of David today?
"For thus says the LORD, 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel…" Jeremiah 33:17

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 04:18 AM
Hi LH
Same old ground.

1Co 12:2
Steven – I am not sure what your problem is with the term “third heaven”I am not sure what your problem is with the term “third heaven”. It has nothing to do with Gnostism, Jewish mysticsm, etc and .My problem is with saying "It has nothing to do with.. Jewish mysticism" when all that is required is to right click on the 1st Century Jewish documentary evidence (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=89574) :)


Heb 8:4 - Again, you are refusing to read the verb tenses in Heb 8:4, For if he were on earth [now, AD60s Jerusalem], he should not be a [Aaronic] priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: That says absolutely zero about the future, and says absolutely zero about a priest after the order of Melchizedek, of whom, the Psalmist says, "sit at my right hand until.. "

Matt 5:35 - Again, no attempt to identify the City of the Great King.
You have already agreed with me that Jesus reigns at God’s right hand in heaven today – on whose throne does He sit and reign? Where is the throne of David today?He sits at an unnamed throne on God's right hand, a throne that is never called the "throne of David". You're assuming that there can only ever be one aspect of David's throne, when Acts 3:21 says the exact opposite. Let's assume that we follow your insistence that the following are fully fullfilled, and nothing more awaits: Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. Isaiah 16:5 then a throne will be established in steadfast love, and on it will sit in faithfulness in the tent of David one who judges and seeks justice and is swift to do righteousness.” it's a complete red herring anyway, I myself do believe that there's a present aspect to "the throne of his father David" in Luke 1:32 as "restore the fallen tent of David" Acts 15:16 indicates. I simply object to the way you are casual with Bible terminology. Otherwise your argument is no different from mine except in the violet:

LOST HORIZON : "Christ comes with the clouds [to rapture Christians, destroy the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"
STEVEN3 "Christ comes with the clouds [to gather to judgment, restore the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"

1Thess 4:17 - back to the OP. None of the above changes that 1Thess4:17 cannot be read as Christ rapturing people to heaven - to meet "apantesis" doesn't allow such a reading.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 27th 2007, 05:08 AM
...Heb 8:4 - Again, you are refusing to read the verb tenses in Heb 8:4, For if he were on earth [now, AD60s Jerusalem], he should not be a [Aaronic] priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: That says absolutely zero about the future, and says absolutely zero about a priest after the order of Melchizedek, of whom, the Psalmist says, "sit at my right hand until.. "

If He were on earth at anytime He would not be a priest and you didn’t answer my question – does your theology require that Jesus serve as a priest on this physical earth? Do you have scriptural support that He will ever serve as priest on earth?


LOST HORIZON : "Christ comes with the clouds [to rapture Christians, destroy the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"
No Horizon’s argument is this – Jesus reigns as Lord of Lords and King of Kings on David’s spiritual throne today of which the earthly throne was a type (Acts 2:29-36). At the end of the age, He will come again “like a thief in the night…in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God” Then the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be destroyed.


He sits at an unnamed throne on God's right hand, a throne that is never called the "throne of David".
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9: 6-7It was foretold that Jesus would set "upon the throne of David" when His kingdom was established. Jesus was set on David’s throne at His coronation in Heaven and His kingdom was established in the First Century, “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear…” (Acts 2:33
“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob (Israel) forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:33)

Firstfruits
Nov 27th 2007, 09:57 AM
The new one is currently awaiting its descent from heaven:

2 Thess 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven

Matt 5:35 Jerusalem.. the city of the Great King

Matt 23:37~9 O Jerusalem..... until you say

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Does Matt 5:35 refer to:
a. old Jerusalem
b. new Jerusalem
c. new-coming-down-on-top-of-old



It is the dwelling place of Both God the father and Christ our king, the city of God the New Jerusalem.

Mt 26:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Ps 46:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=46&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
Ps 46:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=46&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

Remember the first earth was passed away, before he saw the city of God.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 12:36 PM
Hi LH
We're still following the OP "he cometh with the clouds" and 1Thess4:17 still uses that word apantesis which makes the rapture-to-heaven idea impossible. So we still don't have a single verse in the Bible that supports the idea that Christ comes to destroy the planet.


If He were on earth at anytime He would not be a priest and you didn’t answer my question – does your theology require that Jesus serve as a priest on this physical earth? Do you have scriptural support that He will ever serve as priest on earth?No my theology does not require it - and no I don't particularly hold a brief for Christ being a priest on earth, since I see him coming as King of Kings, and leader of "a kingdom of priests and they shall rule on earth" (Rev 5:10). I'm simply pointing out that you're pulling Heb 8:4 out of context in your opposition to Christ coming again "in like manner" (Acts 1:11). Heb 8:4 is about an Aaronic priest pre-AD70, but Christ is a priest "after the order of Melchizedek" and the psalm shows Christ sitting at God's right hand until the time comes to restore the kingdom/creation/all things Acts3:21. Which then is future, not bound by what was true of an Aaronic priest in Heb8:4.


No Horizon’s argument is this – Jesus reigns as Lord of Lords and King of Kings on David’s spiritual throne today of which the earthly throne was a type (Acts 2:29-36). At the end of the age, He will come again “like a thief in the night…in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God” Then the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be destroyed.As I said:

LOST HORIZON : "Christ comes with the clouds [to rapture Christians, destroy the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"
STEVEN3 "Christ comes with the clouds [to gather to judgment, restore the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"Yes, it was foretold that Jesus would sit "upon the throne of David" when His kingdom was established. But you haven't shown a verse that says that has happened. You've merely asserted it. And you're ignoring that the majority of NT "kingdom" verses refer to the future aspect (future tense verbs) which has not yet been fulfilled, and the content of those verses are impossible to square with the dogma of Christ appearing halfway and then destroying the solar system.

We are now at Luke 19:14, since 19:15 hasn't happened yet:

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. ....15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business.

You say the kingdom came near in AD70, yet more than half of the Olivet prophecy was not fulfilled in AD70

Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

You say that Christ will drink wine with his disciples when he destroys the planet. But that's not what one would expect from reading what he said to them:

Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

Luke 22:29-30 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The disciples Jewish perception of the kingdom was shared by thief who expected to be raised when Christ returned:

Luke 23:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (concentrate on the request - the verse no one reads)

Which is what Paul taught:

2 Thess 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—

2 Tim 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

None of these verses would give any hint that the nobleman in the parable had established his kingdom in the far country, nor was coming back to destroy the inheritance in his own country.

Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Not "Your kingdom go up, may the earth be destroyed, take me to heaven"
God bless
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 27th 2007, 02:07 PM
Hi LH
We're still following the OP "he cometh with the clouds" and 1Thess4:17 still uses that word apantesis which makes the rapture-to-heaven idea impossible. So we still don't have a single verse in the Bible that supports the idea that Christ comes to destroy the planet.


Steven

Can you please explain these scriptures?

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

With regards to the following what is God promise?

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Do you accept that God will make a new heaven and a new earth according to that which is written?

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 27th 2007, 02:12 PM
Hi LH
We're still following the OP "he cometh with the clouds" and 1Thess4:17 still uses that word apantesis which makes the rapture-to-heaven idea impossible. So we still don't have a single verse in the Bible that supports the idea that Christ comes to destroy the planet.

No my theology does not require it - and no I don't particularly hold a brief for Christ being a priest on earth, since I see him coming as King of Kings, and leader of "a kingdom of priests and they shall rule on earth" (Rev 5:10). I'm simply pointing out that you're pulling Heb 8:4 out of context in your opposition to Christ coming again "in like manner" (Acts 1:11). Heb 8:4 is about an Aaronic priest pre-AD70, but Christ is a priest "after the order of Melchizedek" and the psalm shows Christ sitting at God's right hand until the time comes to restore the kingdom/creation/all things Acts3:21. Which then is future, not bound by what was true of an Aaronic priest in Heb8:4.

As I said:

LOST HORIZON : "Christ comes with the clouds [to rapture Christians, destroy the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"
STEVEN3 "Christ comes with the clouds [to gather to judgment, restore the planet] and complete the kingdom, complete the throne of David"Yes, it was foretold that Jesus would sit "upon the throne of David" when His kingdom was established. But you haven't shown a verse that says that has happened. You've merely asserted it. And you're ignoring that the majority of NT "kingdom" verses refer to the future aspect (future tense verbs) which has not yet been fulfilled, and the content of those verses are impossible to square with the dogma of Christ appearing halfway and then destroying the solar system.

We are now at Luke 19:14, since 19:15 hasn't happened yet:

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. ....15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business.

You say the kingdom came near in AD70, yet more than half of the Olivet prophecy was not fulfilled in AD70

Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

You say that Christ will drink wine with his disciples when he destroys the planet. But that's not what one would expect from reading what he said to them:

Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

Luke 22:29-30 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The disciples Jewish perception of the kingdom was shared by thief who expected to be raised when Christ returned:

Luke 23:42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” (concentrate on the request - the verse no one reads)

Which is what Paul taught:

2 Thess 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—

2 Tim 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

None of these verses would give any hint that the nobleman in the parable had established his kingdom in the far country, nor was coming back to destroy the inheritance in his own country.

Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Not "Your kingdom go up, may the earth be destroyed, take me to heaven"
God bless
Steven

:agree::thumbsup::amen:

Firstfruits
Nov 27th 2007, 03:38 PM
When Christ returns from heaven the following will happen.

2 Thess 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thess 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) In flamIng fire takIng vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Mal 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=39&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

losthorizon
Nov 28th 2007, 12:01 AM
...We're still following the OP "he cometh with the clouds" and 1Thess4:17 still uses that word apantesis which makes the rapture-to-heaven idea impossible. So we still don't have a single verse in the Bible that supports the idea that Christ comes to destroy the planet.

Apantesis is from the root word “apantao” which simply means “a friendly encounter”, i.e., those who “meet the Lord in the air” will have a friendly encounter with the Lord. Apantesis certainly does not negate 1 Thessalonians from teaching the truth about the second coming of Jesus Christ in which “the dead in Christ shall rise first”. Paul doesn't refer to this great event at “the rapture” - he calls it a resurrection – a resurrection that happens at the second coming of the Lord.

And you are in denial. There are numerous passage that directly foretell the complete destruction of this planet – the church of God has taught this for 2000 years. The Bible says at His coming there will be the resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust,
"…the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:28,29). After that great event the end comes,
"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power" (1 Corinthians 15:24). Make no mistake, the world will be destroyed at the second coming of Christ – mankind will no longer reside at this address. Why – because the earth will be “burned up by fire”. The only ones who miss this truth are those who choose to miss it as they try to force scriptures to fit personal theology.
" But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).


No my theology does not require it - and no I don't particularly hold a brief for Christ being a priest on earth, since I see him coming as King of Kings, and leader of "a kingdom of priests and they shall rule on earth" (Rev 5:10). I'm simply pointing out that you're pulling Heb 8:4 out of context in your opposition to Christ coming again "in like manner" (Acts 1:11).
I have never said Christ doesn’t come “in like manner” as He ascended into heaven after His resurrection – I said just the opposite – I said His seconding coming will be visible and not some “secret rapture” as some teach. And I have not taken anything out of context – according to the Bible, Christ cannot be a priest on earth and there is no reference that He ever will be a priest on earth because there is no reason for that to happen. He is (eternally) our great High Priest and He forever serves in the “true tabernacle” and that true tabernacle will never exist on this so-called earthly paradise - heaven on earth.


Yes, it was foretold that Jesus would sit "upon the throne of David" when His kingdom was established. But you haven't shown a verse that says that has happened. You've merely asserted it. And you're ignoring that the majority of NT "kingdom" verses refer to the future aspect (future tense verbs) which has not yet been fulfilled, and the content of those verses are impossible to square with the dogma of Christ appearing halfway and then destroying the solar system.
You have already agreed with me that the kingdom of Christ was established in the First Century – are you recanting? Remember where I pointed out that Paul specifically said of Christians in his day that they HAD BEEN translated from the “kingdom of darkness” into the “Kingdom of Christ "through his blood". What kingdom, pray tell, was Paul discussing if not the one and only “kingdom of his dear Son”. Christ reigns today at the right hand of God in His kingdom on the “throne of David”. Of that kingdom - it shall have no end.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9: 6-7

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: WHO HATH DELIVERED US FROM THE POWER OF DARKNESS, AND HATH TRANSLATED US INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. Col 1:12-14

Steven3
Nov 28th 2007, 01:10 AM
Good morning LH :)
Apantesis is from the root word “apantao” which simply means “a friendly encounter”, i.e., those who “meet the Lord in the air” will have a friendly encounter with the Lord.In a word, no. You'd need to find a classical Greek text where someone goes in apantesis of a guest and then the guest U-turns and goes away taking the welcomers with him without them welcoming the guest into their own town/house/village. I suppose it's not outside the realms of possibility that such an event happened once in the annals of Greek history, but nevertheless apantesis in the NT follows the normal classical use - i.e. the 10 virgins at the gate of the village, the Roman brethren coming the Appii forum - always going to receive a guest, to welcome someone in.


And you are in denial. There are numerous passage that directly foretell the complete destruction of this planet – the church of God has taught this for 2000 years. I've got the Apostolic Fathers on my shelves here and have never noticed Clement, Polycarp or any of the 2nd Century writers express their hope in the complete destruction of God's creation. Are you sure it's not you that's in denial? :) Your entire exegesis is pinned on one verse 2Pe3:11 - ignoring that in 3:10 the elements are already being dissolved circa AD60, ignoring that in 3:13 Peter talks of a new earth as well as a new heaven, ignoring that in Isaiah and Zephaniah the destruction of "heaven and earth" is followed by prophecies (no doubt dual fulfillment and/or partly symbolic, but nevertheless real enough) of a restored paradise, restored kingdom, restored Israel and Zion. In the whole Bible with hundreds of prophecies (admittedly largely OT, but not all) about the restoration of the earth, why is there not a single verse about the kingdom of heaven actually being in heaven? Why is there in 66 books, 1189 chapters, 31101 verses, not a single one which says that the kingdom is to be in heaven?


Make no mistake, the world will be destroyed at the second coming of Christ – mankind will no longer reside at this address. Why – because the earth will be “burned up by fire”. The only ones who miss this truth are those who choose to miss it as they try to force scriptures to fit personal theology.I really don't think that reading context (2Pe3:10 and 3:13 either side of the chunk 3:11-12 you keep quoting) is a case of "forcing scriptures to fit", it's just reading chapters not verses.


You have already agreed with me that the kingdom of Christ was established in the First Century – are you recanting? Recant from quoting what the Bible says? No. This is again the same problem - you seem to object when anyone expresses themselves in NT vocabulary and NT verb tenses:

we were (past tense) transferred into the Kingdom of his Beloved Son
we will (future tense) inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.Now none of us can conflate those two events (one past tense, one future tense) into one event. So we have two events, fact. The next question is to which of those two events do the following Davidic promises relate:

2Sa 7:12 (not of Solomon, who was crowned before David slept) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ki 9:5 (of Solomon) Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
1Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ch 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
1Ch 28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
Isa 9:7 (of Immanuel) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Luke 1:32 (reiterates the promise but doesn't say when...)And the answer is that the NT doesn't have a single verse saying "Jesus established the kingdom when...". Instead the NT presents the kingdom as having two aspects:

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country (AD30 Ascension) to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.
Luke 19:15 When he returned(future Epiphany), having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business.Now, obviously that corresponds to the two aspects in the following specimen verses:

we were (past tense) transferred into the Kingdom of his Beloved Son
we will (future tense) inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.Anyone who is interested in the subject, and I'd hope that that's everyone, can easily go through the NT noting where "kingdom" appears with a present tense verb, and where it is future. And then note the characteristics of the present kingdom and the future one. What we won't find is any verse saying that the kingdom is in heaven, but instead from it. Even the very familiar old heaven-going verses, when read carefully turn out to be saying the exact opposite: Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body (cf. "a spirit has not flesh and bone" Luke 24:39), by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.


Hence, back to OP, 1 Thess 4:17 cannot be used to support the doctrine of a half-way coming, rapture of Christians back to heaven, or destruction of the planet.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 28th 2007, 01:54 AM
...In a word, no. You'd need to find a classical Greek text where someone goes in apantesis of a guest and then the guest U-turns and goes away taking the welcomers with him without them welcoming the guest into their own town/house/village. I suppose it's not outside the realms of possibility that such an event happened once in the annals of Greek history, but nevertheless apantesis in the NT follows the normal classical use - i.e. the 10 virgins at the gate of the village, the Roman brethren coming the Appii forum - always going to receive a guest, to welcome someone in.

Good evening, Steven, you will have to do better – you have disproved nothing. We meet the LORD in the air and there is no mention of a return to the earth because the end has come – the kingdom has been delivered UP to God and then – “the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up"


I've got the Apostolic Fathers on my shelves here and have never noticed Clement, Polycarp or any of the 2nd Century writers express their hope in the complete destruction of God's creation. Are you sure it's not you that's in denial?
Of course “the Fathers” were not inspired writers were they? But they did believe the end of the world would be accompanied by the judgment, the resurrection and the assignment to eternal life or eternal damnation to humankind on that Day. Did the “Fathers” teach that this physical earth would become heaven on earth?


Your entire exegesis is pinned on one verse 2Pe3:11
Biblical references regarding the fate of the earth are based on many passages (already listed) including the entire passage in 2 Peter 3 (in context) and we all can understand what will be burned up – the earth. Only those who try to fit the square peg into the round hole for the sake of their personal theology will miss what is being presented in God’s revelation. Your “apantesis” is simply a red herring to avoid what the passage states.

When Christ comes again the children of God who are alive will be transformed and meet Christ in the air. Then the final judgment will send those who have rejected Christ to hell and the believers will enter into eternity on the “new earth” where heaven and the new earth will then be one.


Recant from quoting what the Bible says? No. This is again the same problem - you seem to object when anyone expresses themselves in NT vocabulary and NT verb tenses:
• we were (past tense) transferred into the Kingdom of his Beloved Son
• we will (future tense) inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.
Now none of us can conflate those two events (one past tense, one future tense) into one event. So we have two events, fact.
We have but ONE kingdom – the everlasting “kingdom of His dear Son”. It was established at His first coming and as I have stated before – that kingdom is viewed as both a present reality and a future hope. But that does not negate the fact that it existed in the First Century when Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father and set upon His throne – the spiritual throne of David in that blessed kingdom that will have no end.

Again, I ask – if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?

Steven3
Nov 29th 2007, 08:37 AM
Hi LH
Good evening, Steven, you will have to do better – you have disproved nothing. We meet the LORD in the air No, sorry, but this time the onus is on you to have to do better ;) As I said, you're welcome to go do some research and find a classical Greek text where "in apantesis" means the guest being welcomed into a town does a U-turn and takes the welcoming party away with him.


Biblical references regarding the fate of the earth are based on many passages (already listed) Yes, I listed some OT parallels to 2 Peter 3 here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=106768), but as with Peter in Isaiah and Zephaniah we're left with a "new heavens and a new earth" not just a "new heaven" only.


Again, I ask – if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?LH, can I ask if you own a copy of Youngs? Have you ever sat down, away from the keyboard, and slowly contrasted the present tense kingdom verses and future tense kingdom verses in the NT?
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 30th 2007, 12:56 AM
...No, sorry, but this time the onus is on you to have to do better As I said, you're welcome to go do some research and find a classical Greek text where "in apantesis" means the guest being welcomed into a town does a U-turn and takes the welcoming party away with him.


Steven - you are quite wrong once again – the burden is on you and I do not need non-biblical classical Greek to justify my position – I have God’s word. As already mentioned “apantesis” is from the Greek root word “apantao” which simply means “a friendly encounter”, i.e., those who “meet the Lord in the air” will have a friendly encounter with the Lord “in the air” when He delivers the kingdom up to the Father in Heaven – the kingdom is not delivered to anyone “on earth” on that "Day". This is Bible 101.

The text clearly tells us the fate of this earth when ..."the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat” and “the earth and its works will be burned up.” It doesn’t get any clearer than that. Your silly "in apantesis" argument is simply another “u-turn” you take to advance your tired and weak argument that holds no water. It's your red herring is it not? ;)


LH, can I ask if you own a copy of Youngs? Have you ever sat down, away from the keyboard, and slowly contrasted the present tense kingdom verses and future tense kingdom verses in the NT?
I use Young’s and other study aids and they all reinforce the biblical doctrine that the kingdom of Christ was established in heaven and on earth when Jesus was seated on the throne of David at God’s right hand after His Resurrection and Ascencion into Heaven. Jesus reigns on the same throne today as Lord of lords and King of kings. Peter was give the “keys to the kingdom” and on the Day of Pentecost over 3000 Jews "obeyed from the heart" the gospel of Christ and were "batized into Christ Jesus", i.e., they were “translated" out of Satan’s kingdom and placed by God into "the kingdom of God’s dear Son."
"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1: 9). I will again ask you – of what I just laid out above – what does not square with Holy Writ? Be specific and we can go into greater detail. Also you didn't answer my question to you - if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?

Kahtar
Nov 30th 2007, 01:25 AM
Your silly "in apantesis" argument is simply another “u-turn” you take to advance your tired and weak argument that holds no water. It's your red herring is it not? ;)




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Steven3
Nov 30th 2007, 01:38 AM
Hi LH :)
Steven - you are quite wrong once again – the burden is on you and I do not need non-biblical classical Greek to justify my position – I have God’s wordWe all have God's word bro ;). And so far we've only seen God's word has the virgins "welcoming in (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G529&Version=kjv)" the bridesgroom, the Romans "welcoming in (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G529&Version=kjv)" Paul at Appii. The burden is on someone who wants to challenge this NT usage of apantesis to provide an example in Greek of apantesis meaning that the incoming guest does not enter, and takes the 10 virgins/Roman bre away with him.


"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ…" (Rev. 1: 9). My point re Youngs was that the benefit of a concordance is that we can survey how the NT contains both present tense and future tense kingdom verses. Anyone who wants to understand what the NT teaches about the kingdom can easily tabulate the present tense kingdom and future tense kingdom into two columns and let the Word of God have its say... :)


I will again ask you – of what I just laid out above – what does not square with Holy Writ? Be specific and we can go into greater detail. Also you didn't answer my question to you - if Jesus does not now reign as King of kings on David’s spiritual throne in His kingdom on whose thrown does He reign today?I thought I'd answered clearly but am happy to be given opportunity to do so again, Christ sits now at God's right hand, on an unnamed throne, on the priestly "throne of grace" as Hebrews puts it, a priestly throne that David never sat on. David did not sit on "the throne of grace", nor did David sit at God's right hand.

May I answer with scripture? Matt25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.


NT uses of "reign" (all future, have I missed a present tense one?)

1Co15:25 (after the return and resurrection) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Tim 6:15 (after the return and resurrection) which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
2Tim 2:12 (after the return and resurrection) if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
Revelation 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Nov 30th 2007, 02:10 AM
...We all have God's word bro. And so far we've only seen God's word has the virgins "welcoming in" the bridesgroom, the Romans "welcoming in" Paul at Appii. The burden is on someone who wants to challenge this NT usage of apantesis to provide an example in Greek of apantesis meaning that the incoming guest does not enter, and takes the 10 virgins/Roman bre away with him.

You can keep dragging your red herring across the page but you have never negated what the word plainly teaches about the fate of the earth – it is destroyed by fire when those Christians alive at His coming are “caught up” to meet Him “in the air” and the kingdom of His dear Son is “delivered up to God” in Heaven. No mention of delivering the kingdom to any one on earth – and why is that? - because the earth and all the elements have dissolved – gone.


I thought I'd answered clearly but am happy to be given opportunity to do so again, Christ sits now at God's right hand, on an unnamed throne, on the priestly "throne of grace" as Hebrews puts it, a priestly throne that David never sat on. David did not sit on "the throne of grace", nor did David sit at God's right hand.
Peter affirmed that Jesus had been "raised up" to sit on David's throne. He first affirms that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day – then Peter says that Jesus was "raised up" to sit on David's throne, “Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne – on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30) This all came to pass in the First Century - Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever.

It was to this end that He was born, “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given” and He prophesied to set “upon the throne of David and over His kingdom”. When was He to do this?? – when His kingdom was established. When was that kingdom to be established?? – when Jesus shall “rule upon his throne” and “be a priest upon his throne”. When was Jesus set on His throne?? – when God “raised Him up to sit on his throne” shortly after His resurrection from the dead. Was He at that time (First Century) a priest on His throne?? – yes – “Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.” (Hebrews 5:6). Thus Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110:4, “The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”

Steven3
Nov 30th 2007, 07:53 AM
Hi LH
You can keep dragging your red herring across the pageI really don't think providing people with a link to how "go to welcome" is used in the other 3 NT instances constitutes "dragging my red herring across the page" ;), and it's not a herring it's a haddock. I'm simply pointing out that Paul could have used sunantesis (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4877&Version=kjv) instead of apantesis (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G529&Version=kjv) if he expected Christ to turn around and go back:

Matthew 8:34 And behold, all the city came out to meet (EIS SUNANTHSIN, not EIS APANTHSIN in this case) Jesus, and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their region.

No one is obliged to note the difference between the two words for "meet". You choose not to, I expect others will follow your example. Great :D


Peter affirmed that Jesus had been "raised up" to sit on David's throne. He first affirms that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day – then Peter says that Jesus was "raised up" to sit on David's throne, “Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne – on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30) This all came to pass in the First Century - Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever.

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the regeneration (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3824&Version=kjv) when the Son of Man will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne, then you who have followed me will (future tense) also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes (future tense) in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne.

Peace! :)
Steven

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2007, 11:41 AM
We seem to be back and forth over wether or not this earth will be detroyed at the return of Christ.

What does the bible say will happen?

Nahum 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=34&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) The mountains quake at him, and The hills melt, and The earth is burned at his presence, yea, The world, and all that dwell Therein.

Psalm 75:2,3.
2 When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah

Mal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=39&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Mal 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=39&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Do we agree with that which is written?

Will the following be fulfilled that we may see the New Jerusalem?

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

losthorizon
Nov 30th 2007, 11:44 PM
...I really don't think providing people with a link to how "go to welcome" is used in the other 3 NT instances constitutes "dragging my red herring across the page", and it's not a herring it's a haddock. I'm simply pointing out that Paul could have used sunantesis instead of apantesis if he expected Christ to turn around and go back:

Of course you are free to believe what you will, Steven. And you can speculate about the use of “sunantesis instead of apantesis” until the cows come home but Holy Writ records the Greek exactly as God intended and such speculation does not change the fact that the earth will be destroyed by fire shortly after those Christians alive at His second coming are “caught up” to meet the Lord “in the air”. Then the “kingdom of His dear Son” is “delivered up to God” into Heaven.

What you have never explained is why the Bible does not mention a delivering back down to earth of the kingdom of God. Why are we not informed that any one or any place located on the so-called “paradise on earth” will receive the kingdom? Isn’t the reason simply because the earth and all the elements will have been dissolved when He comes "in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the gospel of Christ"?


No one is obliged to note the difference between the two words for "meet". You choose not to, I expect others will follow your example. Great.
Again – I only follow what was taught to God’s servants by the Holy Spirit and preserved for our edification in the Bible. You wouldn’t accept anything less – right?


Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne, then you who have followed me will (future tense) also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes (future tense) in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will (future tense) sit on his glorious throne.
Your verses above to not address my argument. (1) Do you agree that Peter affirmed through inspiration that Jesus has been "raised up" to sit on David's throne? (2) Did Peter affirm that, “David…is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day? (3) Did Peter say that Jesus was "raised up" for that very purpose - to “sit on David's throne”?

“Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” Jesus was raised up to set on whose throne?? – was it not on David’s throne. (Acts 2: 29, 30)

This all came to pass in the First Century, i.e., Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever. It you disagree with anything I have presented above, please point out where you disagree and why and we can discuss it in more detail. Thanks. :)

Steven3
Dec 1st 2007, 06:00 AM
Hey LH :)

What you have never explained is why the Bible does not mention a delivering back down to earth of the kingdom of God. Like "thy kingdom come" you mean"? :D
Why are we not informed that any one or any place located on the so-called “paradise on earth” will receive the kingdom? Well I have 9 of the 10 paradise verses in the Bible on my side, you only have your reference to paradise from Testament of Adam, so I'm not too worried :). As for places, isn't Matt 5:35 a place?
This all came to pass in the First Century, i.e., Christ reigns today on David's throne - in heaven where He is our great High Priest - forever. It you disagree with anything I have presented above, please point out where you disagree and why and we can discuss it in more detail. Thanks. :)I simply disagree with you that it's an either/or choice between the following:
A. The "throne of grace" (Hebrews, present)
B. His "glorious throne" (Matthew, future)
That I am going to the gym today does not prove I am not going to church tomorrow.
God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Dec 1st 2007, 06:29 AM
...Like "thy kingdom come" you mean"?

Does that phrase really teach this physical earth will someday be “heaven on earth” and the redeemed will live eternally on this physical globe – the globe that will “pass away” per God’s word?


Well I have 9 of the 10 paradise verses in the Bible on my side, you only have your reference to paradise from Testament of Adam, so I'm not too worried. As for places, isn't Matt 5:35 a place?
If you have scriptural support that “heaven on earth” will exist on this physical globe, i.e., an “earthly paradise” then by all means present them for review.


I simply disagree with you that it's an either/or choice between the following:
A. The "throne of grace" (Hebrews, present)
B. His "glorious throne" (Matthew, future)
That I am going to the gym today does not prove I am not going to church tomorrow.
You didn’t answer the question – did Peter teach in Acts 2 that Christ was raised to set on David’s throne? If not why not? The fact that you are going to the gym today does not disprove the fact that Christ reigns today on David’s spiritual throne at God’s right hand in heaven.

Steven3
Dec 1st 2007, 07:48 AM
LH
Well the Lord's prayer doesn't mean "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on heaven, and the earth be destroyed" (even if that's what some Christians do pray for every day apparently).

I've already repeatedly given you the OT paradise refs, and the Testament of Adam paradise ref. You only need to right click :)

As I said before, about 10 times now, about a third of the 30 times now you've dogmatically insisted (without verse evidence) that the "throne of David" must be and can only be in heaven - that there are two thrones mentioned in the NT, one present, one future. As to which, or both, is "throne of David" I care not, since my belief that Jerusalem is the city of the Great King is based on Matt5:35 not on Luke 1. If you've got something to say about Matt5:35 please say it. I'm all ears :D

S

losthorizon
Dec 1st 2007, 02:25 PM
LH
Well the Lord's prayer doesn't mean "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on heaven, and the earth be destroyed" (even if that's what some Christians do pray for every day apparently).

I've already repeatedly given you the OT paradise refs, and the Testament of Adam paradise ref. You only need to right click :)

As I said before, about 10 times now, about a third of the 30 times now you've dogmatically insisted (without verse evidence) that the "throne of David" must be and can only be in heaven - that there are two thrones mentioned in the NT, one present, one future. As to which, or both, is "throne of David" I care not, since my belief that Jerusalem is the city of the Great King is based on Matt5:35 not on Luke 1. If you've got something to say about Matt5:35 please say it. I'm all ears :D

S
The “kingdom came” when Jesus ascended to the throne of David “by the right hand of God” in the First Century. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter stood up and explained this about David and his descendent “according to the flesh”, Jesus the Christ,

“Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his [David's] throne.” (Acts 2: 29, 30)

Jesus was "raised up" for that very purpose - to “sit on David's throne” where He reigns today as King of kings. Of those believers on the Day of Pentecost who "gladly heard" and “obeyed from the heart” the gospel preached by Peter, 3000 were delivered out of darkness and translated “into the kingdom of Christ".
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" Colossians 1:13. You have never addressed this fact. Christ has but ONE kingdom and He was set at God’s side upon only ONE throne – the throne of David where the “government will be upon his shoulders” thus fulfilling scripture,
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:2-7According to God's word Jesus reigns on David's throne and over his kingdom today. Do you agree? If not - why not?

My heart's Desire
Dec 2nd 2007, 05:03 AM
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....

Firstfruits
Dec 2nd 2007, 11:59 AM
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....

Where according to the following is Christs kingdom?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

losthorizon
Dec 2nd 2007, 03:32 PM
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying "Lord, it is at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?
7"He said to them, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8: but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9:1)
The kingdom prophesied in the Old Testament would come during the lifetime of some of those standing before Jesus that very day and Peter was “standing there” and heard the words of the Lord. Did Peter see the kingdom of God “come with power”? Jesus gave the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” to Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven.”
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
When did the “kingdom come with power” and when did Peter use "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" for the first time? Before He ascended into heaven Jesus told His disciples (including Peter) to stay in Jerusalem where they would receive “power from on high”, "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city (Jerusalem) until you are clothed with power from on high." Luke 24:49. According to the promise of Jesus, the kingdom did “come with power” in Jerusalem on the “Day of Pentecost” according to the book of Acts. In Acts 1 the apostles were told, “you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ....” and when did the Holy Spirit come upon them – on the Day of Pentecost when they received “the power” promised from on high.
When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance… Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel… “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2That same day over 3000 souls obeyed the gospel of Christ and were added to the Lord’s church (His kingdom on earth), “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them... And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved…" (Acts 2)

Was the kingdom established in the First Century with power from on high – yes, according to Col 1:13, "For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves…"

Kahtar
Dec 2nd 2007, 03:49 PM
We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. We are seated with Him in heavenly places now, yet we are here waiting for His coming.
Death was conquered, is being conquered, and will be conquered.
Satan was defeated, is being defeated, and will be defeated.
Christ came, is coming, and will come. He it is Who Was, Who Is, and Who Is to Come.
His kingdom came, it is coming, and it will come.

My heart's Desire
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:25 AM
It seems to me that if something is restored to someone then it had to be taken from them to begin with. Matthew 21:43?
To be restored. Acts 1:6 in time not known.
The rest of the passage in Joel. Did all that happen at Pentecost too?
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30: I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned into darkness And the moom into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
32" And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
3:1 For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations...

If the kingdom was at hand, was taken from Israel and given to the Church, then why would it have to be restored to "the Church" if it was never taken from "the Church"?

My heart's Desire
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:27 AM
We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. We are seated with Him in heavenly places now, yet we are here waiting for His coming.
Death was conquered, is being conquered, and will be conquered.
Satan was defeated, is being defeated, and will be defeated.
Christ came, is coming, and will come. He it is Who Was, Who Is, and Who Is to Come.
His kingdom came, it is coming, and it will come.

I like how you said that! :pp

Firstfruits
Dec 3rd 2007, 11:03 AM
We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. We are seated with Him in heavenly places now, yet we are here waiting for His coming.
Death was conquered, is being conquered, and will be conquered.
Satan was defeated, is being defeated, and will be defeated.
Christ came, is coming, and will come. He it is Who Was, Who Is, and Who Is to Come.
His kingdom came, it is coming, and it will come.

As it is written, so it shall be done.

Rev 11:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Alaska
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:53 PM
One return, at which judgment falls on the earth, burned up, dissolved etc but right before this, the same day the catching away for those alive and right before that the dead in Christ rise first. All on the literal last day the planet exists. He comes as a thief. It all comes down quickly.

Firstfruits
Dec 4th 2007, 11:59 AM
One return, at which judgment falls on the earth, burned up, dissolved etc but right before this, the same day the catching away for those alive and right before that the dead in Christ rise first. All on the literal last day the planet exists. He comes as a thief. It all comes down quickly.

Thanks Alaska,

Rev 21:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 22:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

John146
Dec 4th 2007, 07:56 PM
Where according to the following is Christs kingdom?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Exactly, and that is what Jesus is illustrating in Acts 1:8.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples may or may not have had an earthly kingdom in Israel in mind when they asked when Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. It seems so. But Jesus, in response to their question, speaks about His spiritual kingdom which would come in power through the Holy Spirit. He was referring to the day of Pentecost. So, regardless of what the disciples had in mind, Jesus always spoke about His spiritual kingdom and knew nothing about any earthly kingdom.

Firstfruits
Dec 5th 2007, 09:07 AM
Exactly, and that is what Jesus is illustrating in Acts 1:8.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples may or may not have had an earthly kingdom in Israel in mind when they asked when Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. It seems so. But Jesus, in response to their question, speaks about His spiritual kingdom which would come in power through the Holy Spirit. He was referring to the day of Pentecost. So, regardless of what the disciples had in mind, Jesus always spoke about His spiritual kingdom and knew nothing about any earthly kingdom.

Thanks John, I agree with you.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Dec 6th 2007, 02:02 AM
Exactly, and that is what Jesus is illustrating in Acts 1:8.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples may or may not have had an earthly kingdom in Israel in mind when they asked when Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. It seems so. But Jesus, in response to their question, speaks about His spiritual kingdom which would come in power through the Holy Spirit. He was referring to the day of Pentecost. So, regardless of what the disciples had in mind, Jesus always spoke about His spiritual kingdom and knew nothing about any earthly kingdom.
So He will be restoring His spiritual Kingdom to Israel and not an earthly Kingdom?

Firstfruits
Dec 6th 2007, 09:45 AM
So He will be restoring His spiritual Kingdom to Israel and not an earthly Kingdom?

I hope the following will answer your question, to which I say yes to.

2 Pet 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

2 Tim 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Alaska
Dec 6th 2007, 08:54 PM
Thanks John, I agree with you.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Firstfruits

If our hope is in this life (or in this world) we are of all men most miserable. The present creation was cursed at Adam and the new heavens and new earth will be literally a new one created after the present one is dissolved, as in, 'no more' as in 'burned up'.

My heart's Desire
Dec 6th 2007, 11:20 PM
Still the disiciples asked if it was at that time that the Kingdom was to be restored to ISRAEL In that verse I believe Jesus didn't tell them the time and that only the Father knew the time. Regardless of knowing the time, He did say that they would receive the Holy Spirit. He didn't say the kingdom was restored then either.
Once again, Was the kingdom taken from Israel? Matt says so. Was the kingdom ever taken from the church and to be restored? I don't know but think that perhaps the disciples were still looking for whatever kingdom the Jewish people had been always looking for, and this was the kingdom they asked about.

Firstfruits
Dec 7th 2007, 09:17 AM
Still the disiciples asked if it was at that time that the Kingdom was to be restored to ISRAEL In that verse I believe Jesus didn't tell them the time and that only the Father knew the time. Regardless of knowing the time, He did say that they would receive the Holy Spirit. He didn't say the kingdom was restored then either.
Once again, Was the kingdom taken from Israel? Matt says so. Was the kingdom ever taken from the church and to be restored? I don't know but think that perhaps the disciples were still looking for whatever kingdom the Jewish people had been always looking for, and this was the kingdom they asked about.

I agree, they asked, and they were told.

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

David Taylor
Dec 7th 2007, 03:56 PM
Still the disiciples asked if it was at that time that the Kingdom was to be restored to ISRAEL In that verse I believe Jesus didn't tell them the time and that only the Father knew the time. Regardless of knowing the time, He did say that they would receive the Holy Spirit. He didn't say the kingdom was restored then either.


Just a few more verses below, Peter tells how restoration is achieved by 'all the house of Israel' and 'her children'.....'from this generation ontoward'.


Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."




No postponement of being restored into the Kingdom....immediate vacancies for any within "all the House of Israel" who chose to participate!

My heart's Desire
Dec 7th 2007, 05:03 PM
Just a few more verses below, Peter tells how restoration is achieved by 'all the house of Israel' and 'her children'.....'from this generation ontoward'.


Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."




No postponement of being restored into the Kingdom....immediate vacancies for any within "all the House of Israel" who chose to participate!
Ah, so at that time the Kingdom was restored to Israel and not to the church, for you cannot restore the kingdom to the church if the church never had it taken from them. Yet, It was taken from Israel.

David Taylor
Dec 7th 2007, 05:25 PM
Ah, so at that time the Kingdom was restored to Israel and not to the church, for you cannot restore the kingdom to the church if the church never had it taken from them. Yet, It was taken from Israel.


At that time....the kingdom was made open and available to anyone who would....what did Peter say...."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"


The Kingdom isn't for a group named 'Israel' nor a group named 'Church' nor a group named 'Jews' nor a group named 'Gentiles' nor a group named 'Italians' nor a group named 'The Jackson Five'....(definately not that:eek:)


The Kingdom is open and available to individual human beings who ...."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins".


Abraham new this in 1400 B.C.
Isaiah new this in 600 B.C.
Simeon new this in 1 B.C.
Peter declared it in 33 A.D.
And it has been continuously heralded around the world to anyone who would enter in ..... (on a daily basis)

My heart's Desire
Dec 7th 2007, 05:34 PM
At that time....the kingdom was made open and available to anyone who would....what did Peter say...."Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"


Bear with me for just talking it out I guess and I gotta go to work so I'll have to study more.
The above you've said I agree with, that the Kingdom is spiritual and is not of this world etc, and is of all those who believe in Jesus, but even so why then would it be restored to Israel? Jesus didn't tell them they were wrong to ask and He didn't give them an answer either. He said it was not for them to know the timing. He didn't say it wouldn't be restored just that He wasn't telling them the time. If it was/is only a spiritual kingdom (the church) then why restore it to Israel? That doesn't make sense to me. The Kingdom belongs to Jesus and one day will be given up to God.

Mograce2U
Dec 7th 2007, 06:03 PM
It seems to me that if something is restored to someone then it had to be taken from them to begin with. Matthew 21:43?
To be restored. Acts 1:6 in time not known.
The rest of the passage in Joel. Did all that happen at Pentecost too?
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30: I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned into darkness And the moom into blood Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
32" And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
3:1 For behold, in those days and at that time, When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations...

If the kingdom was at hand, was taken from Israel and given to the Church, then why would it have to be restored to "the Church" if it was never taken from "the Church"?In the 1st century Israel was under occupation by Rome. Her earthly sceptre had already been taken from her though she was in the land. What she was about to lose however, was not just her earthly kingdom but the kingdom of God she was supposed to be serving. And it was that kingdom which was taken from her and given to another who would bring forth its fruit. And in sealing the deal by rejecting her King, she lost possession of her earthly kingdom too and was removed from it.

So although we see a people called Israel once again in possession of the land and ruling it themselves - they are cast out from Jacob's portion in the kingdom of God. Israel has what she desired from the promise Abraham was given by God - an earthly kingdom in which she alone rules. Her plans are to rule the world; but Jesus, the Holy One of Israel, has that role in the Kingdom of His Father that He rules where He has this power which Israel does not.

Israel has exchanged her hope in God for an earthly kingdom and an earthly "Messiah" to rule it - when the fulfillment of these things promised to Abraham lies in the spiritual realm of God from which He dwells spiritually among His spirtually renewed children in a spiritual temple in a heavenly city. None of which Israel has any part in until she recognizes the Blessed One that was sent in the name of the Lord.

All because she deemed herself unworthy of eternal life in order to keep her earthly kingdom. And God has let her have what she desires - for awhile.

third hero
Dec 7th 2007, 06:14 PM
In the 1st century Israel was under occupation by Rome. Her earthly sceptre had already been taken from her though she was in the land. What she was about to lose however, was not just her earthly kingdom but the kingdom of God she was supposed to be serving. And it was that kingdom which was taken from her and given to another who would bring forth its fruit. And in sealing the deal by rejecting her King, she lost possession of her earthly kingdom too and was removed from it.

So although we see a people called Israel once again in possession of the land and ruling it themselves - they are cast out from Jacob's portion in the kingdom of God. Israel has what she desired from the promise Abraham was given by God - an earthly kingdom in which she alone rules. Her plans are to rule the world; but Jesus, the Holy One of Israel, has that role in the Kingdom of His Father that He rules where He has this power which Israel does not.

Israel has exchanged her hope in God for an earthly kingdom and an earthly "Messiah" to rule it - when the fulfillment of these things promised to Abraham lies in the spiritual realm of God from which He dwells spiritually among His spirtually renewed children in a spiritual temple in a heavenly city. None of which Israel has any part in until she recognizes the Blessed One that was sent in the name of the Lord.

All because she deemed herself unworthy of eternal life in order to keep her earthly kingdom. And God has let her have what she desires - for awhile.

Now that is up to interpretation.

My interpretation is this, that the Israelite kingdom rejected Lord Jesus as the Servant King, and as a result, they were booted from their homeland. I do not agree with the idea that the fulfillment was to be only spiritual in nature, although I do agree that part of that fulfillment is in the spiritual realm, especially when it comes to the salvation portion.

Also, I agree that the sceptor that was in Jerusalem was taken away by Rome, who ruled Jerusalem and the people of it. This is to say that if I take this thought a little further, I could derail this thread, which is not my intention.

I will say this, I believe that the return of the Lord is tied to Israel, and that the kingdom that we belong to right now is not the kingdom of ISrael, but the Kingdom of heaven.

David Taylor
Dec 7th 2007, 06:46 PM
Bear with me for just talking it out I guess and I gotta go to work so I'll have to study more.
The above you've said I agree with, that the Kingdom is spiritual and is not of this world etc, and is of all those who believe in Jesus, but even so why then would it be restored to Israel? Jesus didn't tell them they were wrong to ask and He didn't give them an answer either. He said it was not for them to know the timing. He didn't say it wouldn't be restored just that He wasn't telling them the time. If it was/is only a spiritual kingdom (the church) then why restore it to Israel? That doesn't make sense to me. The Kingdom belongs to Jesus and one day will be given up to God.


They were wanting the Kingdom of Israel to be restored to its former governmental glory, reigning high over the nations like when Solomon was its king...out from under Assyrian exile, out from under Babylonian exile, out from under Roman Rule.

They wanted Israel, the old Kingdom of Solomon to return, with a new Messiah as its Caesar and King.

Jesus however, brought the kingdom to Israel in a much different way....he restored it....but through the Holy Spirit, not through armies and chariots and horses.....

Firstfruits
Dec 8th 2007, 12:10 PM
With regards to the OP with what has been posted so far, concerning his return and where we shall dwell with him;

1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Them in The clouds, to meet The Lord in The air: and so shall we ever be with The Lord.

This is the same manner as when Christ was taken into heaven.

Has the prophecy changed that Christ will come in another manner, other than how he was taken?

We are looking for a spirtual Jerusalem where we shall ever be with the Lord, in the new earth,the New Jerusalem.

Mograce2U
Dec 8th 2007, 03:39 PM
They were wanting the Kingdom of Israel to be restored to its former governmental glory, reigning high over the nations like when Solomon was its king...out from under Assyrian exile, out from under Babylonian exile, out from under Roman Rule.

They wanted Israel, the old Kingdom of Solomon to return, with a new Messiah as its Caesar and King.

Jesus however, brought the kingdom to Israel in a much different way....he restored it....but through the Holy Spirit, not through armies and chariots and horses.....Hi David,
It would seem the kingdom of God came in spiritual power and the old earthly kingdom went out with armies and chariots and horses...

Firstfruits
Dec 9th 2007, 12:01 PM
what are we looking for?


Heb 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Hebrew 11:12-16
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Why are some looking for an earthly country/city/Jerusalem?

His kingdom is an everlasting dominion.

Rev 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And hath made us kings And priests unto God And his Father; to him be glory And dominion for ever And ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Please note that when he comes, the dead are raised, and there is also judgement.

Firstfruits
Dec 10th 2007, 09:26 AM
Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small And great, stAnd before God; And the books were opened: And another book was opened, which is the book of life: And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mt 13:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mt 13:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

My heart's Desire
Dec 10th 2007, 06:21 PM
what are we looking for?




Why are some looking for an earthly country/city/Jerusalem?

.

Because of the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth. :)
But as a Christian, I'm not looking for that just because it is going to occur, I am looking for the heavenly Jerusalem.

Firstfruits
Dec 10th 2007, 08:16 PM
Because of the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth. :)
But as a Christian, I'm not looking for that just because it is going to occur, I am looking for the heavenly Jerusalem.

Are you looking for the New Jerusalem on the new earth according to the following?

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Mograce2U
Dec 10th 2007, 08:59 PM
Are you looking for the New Jerusalem on the new earth according to the following?

Rev 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.Hi Firstfruits,
Along this line these passages are interesting:

(Deu 20:7 KJV) And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

(Hosea 2:19-23 KJV) And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. {20} I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. {21} And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; {22} And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. {23} And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

(John 3:29 KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
...
(John 3:35-36 KJV) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. {36} He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Makes you wonder where this Bride that is now upon the earth and yet also must still come down from heaven, got there, doesn't it? Could be she is being gathered there as we speak...

I find it interesting that the futurist only sees heaven as a far off goal requiring a rapture/resurrection for us to get there when Jesus was clear that His going away in John 14 was to prepare a place for us so that we could be with Him always. And thru the sending of the Holy Spirit, His presence would be with us in this life so that He would never leave us NOR forsake us (to the grave). It seems to me that means we enter heaven immediately upon death. Thus the Bride is prepared here in this life and clothed IN heaven upon death, and merely waits there with Him until her return WITH the Lord.

The marriage feast has thus begun in heaven and on the earth as the citizens of the New Jerusalem gather to it. For the few saints who are still alive when that time comes to return, I expect they will be raptured - but the first resurrection must have already begun. So like the Amil who says this resurrection is "spiritual", that does not preclude that our spiritual bodies are given to us as we arrive in heaven. Revelation seems to say this is the case. Only the earliest martyrs had to wait a little while until vengeance was given them. But they too received their robes.

But then I see the Lord coming in the clouds in judgment as the sign He gave us so we would know this resurrection had taken place. "Every eye shall see Him" does not necessitate a visible appearance, but a spiritual understanding of a spiritual event. And it was Israel who would know it was the Lord who had done this - the very ones who pierced Him. Judgment is like that in the OT - those wonderful works of God which make Him known to His people and always according to His prophetic word which fortells those events - lightens the eye. Pretty much like lightning does as it flashes across the sky - when our understanding is opened.

My heart's Desire
Dec 11th 2007, 07:17 AM
Hi guys,

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This verse does not say Jesus comes on the clouds, it says He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. The dead and the living meet Him in the clouds. Just like when the Lord left He went up into the clouds, the same is for us we will go up into the clouds and be with Him. They are going beyond the clouds to meet the Lord.
True indeed, I believe. When I've read in Acts His ascension somehow I guess I thought a cloud somehow came and got Him. :) But as some have explained Jesus probably started rising into the sky until a cloud finally hid Him from the eyes of the watching disciples. The NASB interestingly describes it as He was lifted up and a cloud received Him, hiding Him FROM the sight of those watching Him.

Firstfruits
Dec 11th 2007, 09:14 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
Along this line these passages are interesting:

(Deu 20:7 KJV) And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.

(Hosea 2:19-23 KJV) And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. {20} I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. {21} And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; {22} And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. {23} And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

(John 3:29 KJV) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
...
(John 3:35-36 KJV) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. {36} He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Makes you wonder where this Bride that is now upon the earth and yet also must still come down from heaven, got there, doesn't it? Could be she is being gathered there as we speak...

I find it interesting that the futurist only sees heaven as a far off goal requiring a rapture/resurrection for us to get there when Jesus was clear that His going away in John 14 was to prepare a place for us so that we could be with Him always. And thru the sending of the Holy Spirit, His presence would be with us in this life so that He would never leave us NOR forsake us (to the grave). It seems to me that means we enter heaven immediately upon death. Thus the Bride is prepared here in this life and clothed IN heaven upon death, and merely waits there with Him until her return WITH the Lord.

The marriage feast has thus begun in heaven and on the earth as the citizens of the New Jerusalem gather to it. For the few saints who are still alive when that time comes to return, I expect they will be raptured - but the first resurrection must have already begun. So like the Amil who says this resurrection is "spiritual", that does not preclude that our spiritual bodies are given to us as we arrive in heaven. Revelation seems to say this is the case. Only the earliest martyrs had to wait a little while until vengeance was given them. But they too received their robes.

But then I see the Lord coming in the clouds in judgment as the sign He gave us so we would know this resurrection had taken place. "Every eye shall see Him" does not necessitate a visible appearance, but a spiritual understanding of a spiritual event. And it was Israel who would know it was the Lord who had done this - the very ones who pierced Him. Judgment is like that in the OT - those wonderful works of God which make Him known to His people and always according to His prophetic word which fortells those events - lightens the eye. Pretty much like lightning does as it flashes across the sky - when our understanding is opened.

This is what Jesus fortold concerning this current Jerusalem, and his return.

Mathew 23:36-39
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:1,2
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Since as Jesus said that Jerusalem will be desolate, and that they would not see him until his rerturn, if there was an earthly reign before his return, how could it be if Jerusalem does not see him until he comes back?

Mograce2U
Dec 11th 2007, 04:45 PM
Firstfruits,
I guess we have to figure out how Rev 1:7 intends for us to understand how every eye shall "see" Him. The coming in the clouds of judgment is certainly a figurative form of speech that the OT uses often, so it may be that a figurative understanding is meant for both phrases. The fact that every eye shall see AND also those that pierced Him, puts this in the 1st century. "Kindreds of the earth" can also be translated "tribes of the land", which implies it is those in Israel who will be wailing because of what they understand that Jesus is doing.

Certainly to see with eyes of spiritual understanding is not an uncommn concept either:

(Job 42:5 KJV) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

(Isa 52:8-12 KJV) Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. {9} Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. {10} The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. {11} Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. {12} For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

(Mat 7:5 KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(1 Cor 2:9-10 KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

(Isa 64:4 KJV) For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 08:54 AM
Firstfruits,
I guess we have to figure out how Rev 1:7 intends for us to understand how every eye shall "see" Him. The coming in the clouds of judgment is certainly a figurative form of speech that the OT uses often, so it may be that a figurative understanding is meant for both phrases. The fact that every eye shall see AND also those that pierced Him, puts this in the 1st century. "Kindreds of the earth" can also be translated "tribes of the land", which implies it is those in Israel who will be wailing because of what they understand that Jesus is doing.

Certainly to see with eyes of spiritual understanding is not an uncommn concept either:

(Job 42:5 KJV) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

(Isa 52:8-12 KJV) Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. {9} Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. {10} The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God. {11} Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. {12} For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

(Mat 7:5 KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(1 Cor 2:9-10 KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. {10} But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

(Isa 64:4 KJV) For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

If we look at it from the point that when he returns, no matter who we are saved or unsaved we shall all see Christ, at judgement.

Rom 14:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 08:20 PM
Jesus said;

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Truly, every eye shall see him.