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tgallison
Nov 15th 2007, 01:46 PM
The plan of salvation laid out in the 33 chapter of Job.

A. Job's questions that are a prelude to God's answers.

1. Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?-----."

2. Job 9:2 "----how should man be just with God? (3) If he contend with him he cannot answer him one of a thousand." [He needs a mediator]

3. Job 9:19 "----who shall set me a time to plead?"

4. Job 9:32-35 "For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him and we should come together in judgment. (33) Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. (34) Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me. (35) Then would I speak, and not fear him; but is is not so with me."

5. Job 13:19 "Who is he that will plead with me?-----."

6. Job 13:20-22 "Only do not two things unto me: then I will not hide myself from thee. (21) Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. (22) Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer me."

7. Job 23:3-4 "Oh that I knew where I might find him! That I might come even to his seat! (4) I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments."

IT IS EVIDENT FROM THESE VERSES THAT

a. God had not pardoned Job's sin.

b. Job was looking for a mediator between him and God.

c. Job was looking for a mediator that would not make him afraid.

DID GOD ANSWER JOB'S REQUEST FOR A MEDIATOR THAT WOULD NOT TERRIFY HIM?

YES IT IS ALL IN CHAPTER 33

God's answer to Job's request for a mediator.

Job 33:6 "Behold I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (Though this verse is found only in the KJV, think about this. It is one of the most profound statements in the Bible. Only Jesus has made a more profound statement.)

Note what Joseph the son of Jacob said, Genesis 50:19 "And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?" Note what Jacob said to Rachel. Genesis 30:2 "And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel" and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?" (Do you think a scribe would have been so foolish to have inserted "Behold I am according to thy wish in God's stead:" in Job 33:6, such a profound statement, or is it more likely it that it was left out?)

Elihu could say this because God was answering Job's request for a go between, a daysman, a mediator. The name Elihu means God of him. Youngs concordance defines it as God himself. The implication is not that Elihu was God, but his words were God's words. Or perhaps it could be said he was the word of God. God spoke through an ass, surely He could speak through a man.

Job 33:5 "If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up." (Elihu orders Job to stand up. Compare this verse with the words of Job.) Job 23:4 "I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments." Job 30:20 "I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not."

Job 33:7 "Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee." (This is in reply to Job's request. Job 23:20-22 "Only do not two things unto me: then I will not hide myself from thee. (21) Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. (22) Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak and answer me." Job 9:33 "Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. (34) Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: (35) Then would I speak, and not fear him: but it is not so with me.")

To be continued

mikeynash
Nov 15th 2007, 02:00 PM
I'm currently doing a series on Job in my preaching and would like to say your thoughts are spot on mate.

Job actually makes a prophecy with his request for a mediator, and in that prophecy, Jesus is described. Job was wise enough to know the nature of God cannot be born by human kind and without knowing, requests that God become man. Which of course, with the privalage of heinsight, we know that he did.

What does that say about our view of God? Well how about this - God understands that we cannot understand God. He knows that our futile and small human minds cannot begin to fathom his plans that are in motion.

What Job teaches us is that God has a plan through whatever... no matter what comes our way, we know that should we trust on the unchanging and un movable rock that is our God, his plan comes to fuition.

Sorry... i'll stop adding now, very good overture however!

David Taylor
Nov 15th 2007, 02:38 PM
Also,

Job 19:25 "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

Job 14:15 "Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. "

tgallison
Nov 15th 2007, 05:42 PM
Also,

Job 19:25 "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

Job 14:15 "Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. "


David Hi

In Job 19:25 Job spoke excellent words. But it is my opinion that he said them with a head knowledge, and not with heart knowledge.

Look what he said in that same chapter previously. Job 19:6-10 "Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
(7) Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard: I cry aloud but there is no judgement. (8) He hath fenced up my way that I cannot pass, and he hath set darkness in my paths. (9) He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head. (10) He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree."

Many people have a head knowledge of God but not a heart knowledge. You can often tell them by the way they are attempting to get to heaven.
By their works.

Some will say that Job didn't have the advantage of the Bible to know, but that is a false premise because he did have God's word. Job 23:12 "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips: I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

The same for Job 14:15. Again he said wonderful things, but again look at the first part of the chapter. Job 14:2-4 "He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. (3) And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?" (4) Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. (Jesus can)

Job 42:3 "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therfore have I uttered that I understood not: things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."

Job had plenty of head knowledge, but he didn't have a personal relationship with God.

If you look at Job 19:9 you will see that Job said God had taken his crown from him. Look at Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem." (The crown and glory in Job 19:9 that God stripped Job of was Job's righteousness. If you study chapter 29 you will see Job's pride in all its glory.)

Job 29:25 "I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners."

Proverbs 30:21-22 "For three things the earth is disquieted, and four which it can't bear: (22) For a servant when he reigneth: and a fool when he is filled with meat:

I have yet to finish chapter 33.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Nov 15th 2007, 07:55 PM
In the following verses Elihu describes to Job exactly how God has dealt with him and why.

Job 33:14 "For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. (15) in a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed." (Job attests to this in Job 7:14 "Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:)

God's purpose for the visions is to open mens ears for instruction, to hide pride from man and to save his soul. Verses 16,17, and 18.

Notice that in verse 14 Elihu says God speaks in visions once, twice yet evidently Job didn't hearken to Him, for verse 14 says, yet man perceiveth it not.

Verse 13 says Job was striving against God, and verse 17 says that the reason for the visions was to keep pride from man and withdraw man from his purpose. To keep Job's soul from the pit, and to keep his life from perishing by the sword.

Evidently Job wasn't heeding God's visions, because God is forced to take more harsher steps to get Job's attention.

In verse 19 God moves from speaking in visions to using a rod. Job 33:19-21 "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain. (20) So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. (Notice how God continually talks about both the life and the soul) (21) His flesh is consumed away, that it connot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out."

Notice that Job is now closer to death, both his body and soul. Job:22 "Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers."

Job 33:23 "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man hisuprightness;

Isaiah 52:7 "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation: that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!"

This whole chapter is about why Job suffered. It clearly states that it was to keep back his soul from the grave. Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom." (The only ransom I know about for a man's soul is Jesus Christ, God's uprightness.)

Job 33:25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth." (The only way for an old mans flesh to be fresher than a child's is to be in a mothers womb.) John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

In Job 33:23-26 Elihu is telling Job his future. That Job will pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him. That he will render unto Job His righteousness. (Jesus Christ)

In Job 33:27 "He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not: (28) He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light."

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Job 33:30 "To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living." (Jesus Christ is the light of the living)

This chapter is all about God's desire to save Job's soul.

Job 33:32 "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee." (Remember in Job 23:4 "I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments." Here is Job's chance, but he remains silent.

Job 33:33 "If not, hearken unto me; hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom."

Is not wisdom a picture of Jesus? Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him." Proverbs 8:34 "Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors." John 10:9 "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Proverbs 8:35 "For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord."

In Christ Jesus, terrell

tgallison
Nov 15th 2007, 10:23 PM
I'm currently doing a series on Job in my preaching and would like to say your thoughts are spot on mate.

Job actually makes a prophecy with his request for a mediator, and in that prophecy, Jesus is described. Job was wise enough to know the nature of God cannot be born by human kind and without knowing, requests that God become man. Which of course, with the privalage of heinsight, we know that he did.

What does that say about our view of God? Well how about this - God understands that we cannot understand God. He knows that our futile and small human minds cannot begin to fathom his plans that are in motion.

What Job teaches us is that God has a plan through whatever... no matter what comes our way, we know that should we trust on the unchanging and un movable rock that is our God, his plan comes to fuition.

Sorry... i'll stop adding now, very good overture however!

Hi mickeynash

So seldom anyone ever agrees with anything I post about Job. Bless you.

We surely cannot begin to comprehend God. Only that there is no goodness outside of Him.

Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

terrell

Pleroo
Nov 15th 2007, 11:34 PM
Excellent! Thank you for posting.

jeffweeder
Nov 16th 2007, 12:38 AM
For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.


8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground
And its stump dies in the dry soil,


9 At the scent of water it will flourish
And put forth sprigs like a plant.


10 "But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?


11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,


12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!


14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.


15 "You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands.


16 "For now You number my steps,
You do not observe my sin.


17 "My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You wrap up my iniquity.
Job 14

tgallison
Nov 16th 2007, 03:13 AM
For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.


8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground
And its stump dies in the dry soil,


9 At the scent of water it will flourish
And put forth sprigs like a plant.


10 "But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?


11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,


12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.



13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!


14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.


15 "You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands.


16 "For now You number my steps,
You do not observe my sin.


17 "My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You wrap up my iniquity.
Job 14

jeffweeder hi

I guess we are doing what Job and his three friends were doing. Using God's word to win an argument even if we don't fully and completely understand God's word.

Your critical text does not agree with my received text, nor does your critical text agree with itself.

Case in point!

NASB Job 14:16 "For now You number my steps, You do not observe my sin.

Job 7:21 "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity?--------."


KJV Job 14:16 "For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?"

Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?

The NASB makes the statement in 14:16 "You do not observe my sin.

The KJV asks the question in 14:16, "dost thou not watch over my sin?"

It would not be fruitful to argue over which one is right. The point being made that the critical text does not seem to agree with itself in these two verses.

God's conversation with Job.

Job 40:2 "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

Job 40:9 "Hast thou an arm like God?-------?"

Job 40:14 "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

When God speaks of His arm and his right hand, he is talking about Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground: he hath no form or comeliness: and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

God has asked Job if he can be his own savior. Again it is about Job's self righteousness. Can your right hand save you Job?

Isaiah 48:12-13 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he I am the first, I also am the last. (13) Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, an my right hand hath spanned the heavens; when I call unto them, they stand up together."

Isaiah 40:10 "Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him."

Isaiah 41:10 "Fear thou not: for I am with thee; be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee, yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."

WHO IS RIGHTEOUS, GOD OR JOB?

jeffweeder
Nov 16th 2007, 07:06 AM
God proves to be.
I thought these verses showed how his own hand saved us, salvation was bought about by his own arm.


"My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
And You wrap up my iniquity.

StevenC
Nov 17th 2007, 06:10 AM
Job's story is one I feel all believers can relate to in one way or another.

Consider one aspect of the story being Job's Affliction. Another Job's Adversary's. Friends of Job who seized upon his affliction and sought to correct him. God called Job perfect and upright, but inside Job still needed some work. As he was accused of guilt by his friends he lamented over his being unable to take his case before God, so that it could be proven that he was righteous. This self-righteousness was a disease that God needed to heal Job. In truly spectacular form, God uses Job's affliction to reveal this and help Job overcome this problem.

Now affliction is an interesting thing. If I had to guess I would say that without exception, every follower of God that I have met in real life, has been afflicted in some way. I will stop here and I hope that saying that didn't offend anyone, but you may wish to seek understanding on the matter through these scriptures:

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Zech 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Is 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

-Steven

tgallison
Nov 17th 2007, 04:34 PM
Job's story is one I feel all believers can relate to in one way or another.

Consider one aspect of the story being Job's Affliction. Another Job's Adversary's. Friends of Job who seized upon his affliction and sought to correct him. God called Job perfect and upright, but inside Job still needed some work. As he was accused of guilt by his friends he lamented over his being unable to take his case before God, so that it could be proven that he was righteous. This self-righteousness was a disease that God needed to heal Job. In truly spectacular form, God uses Job's affliction to reveal this and help Job overcome this problem.

Now affliction is an interesting thing. If I had to guess I would say that without exception, every follower of God that I have met in real life, has been afflicted in some way. I will stop here and I hope that saying that didn't offend anyone, but you may wish to seek understanding on the matter through these scriptures:

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Zech 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Is 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

-Steven

Steven Hi

I hear what you are saying. Our disagreement has to do with the exact time of Job's rebirth. You are saying it happened prior to Job being mentioned in the Bible.

For a comparison let us look at Abraham. But first we would have to agree that righteousness is accredited to us at the time of our salvation, or rebirth.

The Book of Job is about righteousness. Man's and God's. My definition of God's righteousness, which he gives to man, is the work of the cross; the sacrifice of His son for our sins.

ABRAHAM'S SALVATION

Genesis 14:17 "And the king of Sodom went out to meet him-------." (The king of Sodom is a picture of Satan, king over the children of pride. Job 41:34)

Genesis 14:18 "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." (Melchizedek is a picture of Christ. Hebrews 7:1-3 "For this Melchisedec king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him (2) To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all: first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; (3) Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God: abideth a priest continually.")

(The bread and the wine is a picture of the body and blood of Jesus Christ, which was offered up for our salvation. 1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as ye eat the bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.)

Genesis 14:21 "And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself" (Satan offered wealth to Abram, but Satan wanted the souls of men. Notice how even the names sound similar, King of Salem, king of Sodom. Satan is the imitator.)

Genesis 14:22 "And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, (23) That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:" (Abram would have no part of Satan. Remember now this is the same Abram that receive wealth of the Pharaoh of Egypt when he deceived him about Sarai, but now he has met Melchizedek.[It would have been great to have heard the conversation between the King of Salem and Abram, perhaps this is part of it. John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."])

Genesis 15:1 "After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward." ([I]When Job had a vision it terrified him. It says the word of God came unto him. Whenever I see the term "word of God", I see Jesus[John 1:1]. When the term "shield" is used, again Jesus. 2 Samuel 22:3 "The God of my rock: in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour;--." 1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." When you see reward think of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 62:11 "Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, they salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him." Revelation 22:12 "And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the Lord: and he counted it to him for righteousness." (Abram had faith to get out of his kindred's country when God told him to, but it was when he had faith believing that God was his shield, his exceeding great reward, his saviour, after meeting the King of Salem, and the word of God, that he was counted righteous.)

Abram was chosen of God[Genesis 12:2-3], before his redemption[Genesis 15:6]. But Abram had a free will. He chose to have faith and leave the land and he chose not the wealth of the king of Salem, but chose to believe the word of God, his shield, his reward, his High Priest.(Jesus Christ)

continued

StevenC
Nov 18th 2007, 12:07 AM
Steven Hi

I hear what you are saying. Our disagreement has to do with the exact time of Job's rebirth. You are saying it happened prior to Job being mentioned in the Bible.

Hello,

I am not sure what you mean, I am simply sharing some thoughts of Job that I feel is relevant to our walk with God. I feel its relevant that God uses affliction to refine our character, as can be seen in the book of Job.

Its not directly about salvation itself. Does that clarify?

-Steven

tgallison
Nov 18th 2007, 02:02 AM
Hello,

I am not sure what you mean, I am simply sharing some thoughts of Job that I feel is relevant to our walk with God. I feel its relevant that God uses affliction to refine our character, as can be seen in the book of Job.

Its not directly about salvation itself. Does that clarify?

-Steven

Steven Hi

I was responding to the verse that you posted, Job 23:10 "But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold."

My understanding of this verse, (it is a trial, a judgement). And unless he was covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, he was headed for the pit, described in Job chapter 33.

As Christians we are appointed unto tribulation, it refines us.

The question is why did Job suffer? Was he on his way to heaven and God just wanted to make him more like Jesus, or was he on his way to the pit and God wanted to save his soul?

So often Jesus is not seen in the Old Testament. Abram was presented to show how Jesus was in his life and contrast Abram with Job.

I hope I have not offended you, perhaps I just did not understand the implications of what you were saying.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

StevenC
Nov 18th 2007, 03:48 AM
The question is why did Job suffer? Was he on his way to heaven and God just wanted to make him more like Jesus, or was he on his way to the pit and God wanted to save his soul?

More than likely, as a man of God, Job desired that God make his path straight. And although he was considered upright, God still knew he could be better. Some of the scripture I quoted, speaks of God refining his people as if they were precious metal, and God knew that Job could be further refined. That is my perspective anyway.

The refining of ones character is linked to salvation, but I don't view it as one in the same. I view salvation as being through Jesus Christ, as we seek the Kingdom in our lives, God seeks to bring us closer to him by changing our nature making us more like Himself.

-Steven

StevenC
Nov 18th 2007, 04:02 AM
To clarify the above, because Jesus had not yet come, Job would have been destined for the grave (Sheol.) Job was faithful to God, even though he was provoked to speak wrongly.

We know that God will always save those whom he calls righteous. As Abraham said, surely God will not destroy the wicked along with the righteous. And Job said, "I know that my Redeemer lives," a prophesy that he would be redeemed by God through Jesus Christ.

-Steven

tgallison
Nov 18th 2007, 12:48 PM
To clarify the above, because Jesus had not yet come, Job would have been destined for the grave (Sheol.) Job was faithful to God, even though he was provoked to speak wrongly.

We know that God will always save those whom he calls righteous. As Abraham said, surely God will not destroy the wicked along with the righteous. And Job said, "I know that my Redeemer lives," a prophesy that he would be redeemed by God through Jesus Christ.

-Steven

Steven you say that Jesus had not yet come. That was the reason I posted about Abram, to show that Jesus was always.

SALVATION

Have faith believing that God will provide a way of escape from our sins. That He is a good and loving God. The Old Testament way.

Have faith believing that God has provided a way of escape from our sins. That He is a good and loving God. The New Testament way.

tgallison
Nov 18th 2007, 08:07 PM
Job was faithful to God, even though he was provoked to speak wrongly.
-Steven


Steven Hi

Your right, Job did speak wrongly.

Job 3:1 "After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."

Job 40:2 "Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 41:5 "Wilt thou play with him[Satan] as with a bird?----."

Job 41:34 "He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride."

Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Acts 7:60 "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

Was Stephen provoked to speak wrongly? Or how about Paul when he was in prison?

Job, for at least 41 chapters, was a picture of Saul before he became Paul.

Paul describes Job's problem in Philippians 3:9 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

If Abram knew Christ, how can you say that Job couldn't have known him.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it. and was glad."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

StevenC
Nov 21st 2007, 05:31 PM
Was Stephen provoked to speak wrongly? Or how about Paul when he was in prison?

No Stephen was stoned because they didn't like what he had to say. (What the Lord had said through him.) Israel repeatedly killed prophets and/or scorned God's prophets. Many Israelites even spoke badly of Moses during his time.

Saul consented to his death not out of wickedness because he believed that Stephan was speaking blasphemously (though he did not.)


If Abram knew Christ, how can you say that Job couldn't have known him.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it. and was glad."

Its a matter of perspective, Job did not know Jesus Christ as the son of man, but he knew that he would be redeemed by the Lord. That is he knew of the coming Messiah by revelation from God.

-Steven

tgallison
Nov 21st 2007, 06:47 PM
No Stephen was stoned because they didn't like what he had to say. (What the Lord had said through him.) Israel repeatedly killed prophets and/or scorned God's prophets. Many Israelites even spoke badly of Moses during his time.

Saul consented to his death not out of wickedness because he believed that Stephan was speaking blasphemously (though he did not.)



Its a matter of perspective, Job did not know Jesus Christ as the son of man, but he knew that he would be redeemed by the Lord. That is he knew of the coming Messiah by revelation from God.

-Steven

Steven greetings

The point I was trying to make about Paul and Stephen was that though they suffered, they never spoke ill of God, as Job did.

If Abram saw Jesus day, how is it that Job couldn't have seen it?

If Jesus was revealed to Abram, why not to Job? If Abram was saved by the righteousness of God, which is Jesus, why was not Job saved the same way?

God put his Son on the cross for all men, why wouldn't he want all men to see it?

In Jesus Christ, terrell