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ServantofTruth
Nov 17th 2007, 05:07 PM
To develope one idea mentioned, i have a question. Is it possible for those in the church to reproduce those original house churches mentioned in the bible? I can't find a local church that accepts children or that will teach only what the bible says, not add or take away with human ideas.
What i'm saying is in therory a house church could grow into a big 100's congregation and remain biblical and family based but i've never seen it. The bible says teachers/ those in positions of authority will be judged more harshly than the congregation. Isn't this unfair as becoming a leader and being a good one is very differcult.
If people feel i need to start a new topic i can?

dljc
Nov 17th 2007, 06:04 PM
ServantofTruth,

I moved this post into the Bible Chat forum as it was piggybacking on a thread in the CA forum. It would be better answered in this forum since no Christians would have been allowed to comment in the CA forum. If you need any adjustments made to this thread let me know and I'll make them or one of the mods from BC can. (i.e. thread title).

Tanya~
Nov 17th 2007, 06:13 PM
Hi SOT,


To develope one idea mentioned, i have a question. Is it possible for those in the church to reproduce those original house churches mentioned in the bible?

There is a house church movement, and has been for years (in the US anyway). I looked very seriously into this at one time but found that just moving the church into houses didn't solve the problem. The people were bringing all the traditions and baggage from "institutional church" into houses so there wasn't a big difference. If you can find a decent church that has good home Bible study groups, that can work well. The thing to look for is that the people doing the leading are led by the Holy Spirit, and they are faithful to the Scriptures. Commercially produced curriculum-based studies are a cheap substitute IMO.


I can't find a local church that accepts children or that will teach only what the bible says, not add or take away with human ideas. What i'm saying is in therory a house church could grow into a big 100's congregation and remain biblical and family based but i've never seen it.

I know what you mean. I don't think there is a church anywhere that hasn't been infected this way. As the parable says, it has been completely permeated with leaven. (Matt 13:33)



The bible says teachers/ those in positions of authority will be judged more harshly than the congregation. Isn't this unfair as becoming a leader and being a good one is very differcult.

What we are seeing in the concerns you express above is the good reason for the "stricter" judgment that is promised to teachers. Anyone who presumes to teach others in the things of God has a very serious responsibility to be faithful to God's word themselves, and to transmit it faithfully to others. When the teachers are not faithful to God's word, how can they lead God's people into truth? It's a very serious and critical thing.

I wish more of the teachers would take seriously the warning in James about the stricter judgment. Too many become ministers because they think it would make a good career, or because they think they can get rich easily that way, or for many other reasons OTHER than that God has gifted and called them to that.

But there are many who have been called, are gifted, and do teach faithfully. They're just harder to find.

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 03:45 PM
What i'm saying is in therory a house church could grow into a big 100's congregation and remain biblical and family based but i've never seen it.


If you've never seen it, then you haven't read church history. The churches you read about in scripture still exist, believe it or not. ;)
As a matter of fact, I am involved in the beginning of one here in my area. A man is about to be ordained a priest and we will begin a house church the first of December (pray for us, we are few). :pray:

Brother Mark
Nov 19th 2007, 03:48 PM
To develope one idea mentioned, i have a question. Is it possible for those in the church to reproduce those original house churches mentioned in the bible? I can't find a local church that accepts children or that will teach only what the bible says, not add or take away with human ideas.
What i'm saying is in therory a house church could grow into a big 100's congregation and remain biblical and family based but i've never seen it. The bible says teachers/ those in positions of authority will be judged more harshly than the congregation. Isn't this unfair as becoming a leader and being a good one is very differcult.
If people feel i need to start a new topic i can?

They are popping up. I have a friend in Dallas that is doing something similar. A friend of mine in Florida is also looking at starting multiple house churches. They have been around a while. Be careful though. Often you find malcontents in house churches and that's not what you want to be around spiritually.

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 04:12 PM
Be careful though. Often you find malcontents in house churches and that's not what you want to be around spiritually.


Meaning it would be a good idea to find out WHY they are starting a house church....??

The one I am involved in started because God called someone to the clergy here, and the closest Orthodox church is 50 miles from here. So we are very excited to help begin one in our area. As it helps ease the burden of a long trip to church. And we can attend more often.:)

Brother Mark
Nov 19th 2007, 04:27 PM
Meaning it would be a good idea to find out WHY they are starting a house church....??

The one I am involved in started because God called someone to the clergy here, and the closest Orthodox church is 50 miles from here. So we are very excited to help begin one in our area. As it helps ease the burden of a long trip to church. And we can attend more often.:)

Correct! I would want to know the person is starting the church for positive reasons and motivation from the Lord, like what you mention.

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 05:52 PM
We had been praying to find a church, that stuck to the Bible and not the traditions of men.

After years of prayer God led us to a small church of about 15 families, who meet in a community center.

They began in the Pator's home. I see a huge difference between this church and the others I have attended.

It is not stuck in denominational doctrines...but open to study the Word as a unit.......the people are so real...I can't explain it in anyother way. No pretenses, agendas ect....everyone working togther as beleivers in Christ. No one "has" a ministry- or "leads a class'' Someone might teach a specific class for a period of time...but often people will take turns and and help each other.


God Bless

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 06:47 PM
We had been praying to find a church, that stuck to the Bible and not the traditions of men.


Not to sound like I'm picking on you. But this always strikes me as queer when one states they stick to the bible and not the traditions of men. What do people think the bible is, but a tradition (of the church) carried on by men.


After years of prayer God led us to a small church of about 15 families, who meet in a community center.

They began in the Pator's home. I see a huge difference between this church and the others I have attended.

It is not stuck in denominational doctrines...but open to study the Word as a unit.......the people are so real...I can't explain it in anyother way. No pretenses, agendas ect....everyone working togther as beleivers in Christ. No one "has" a ministry- or "leads a class'' Someone might teach a specific class for a period of time...but often people will take turns and and help each other.


God Bless

I'm no fan of "denominational doctrines", but aren't all Christians open to study of scripture, especially in a church setting.
Your group sounds like what I would call a mission. And necessity is key in a mission.
Does your group desire that God send a full time minister?

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 07:10 PM
Not to sound like I'm picking on you. But this always strikes me as queer when one states they stick to the bible and not the traditions of men. What do people think the bible is, but a tradition (of the church) carried on by men.


I'm no fan of "denominational doctrines", but aren't all Christians open to study of scripture, especially in a church setting.
Your group sounds like what I would call a mission. And necessity is key in a mission.
Does your group desire that God send a full time minister?
Hi- no most churches do not go by the Bible, but what the denomination teaches.......

We do have a Pastor and our fellowship is called a church. But, we don't follow rituals...

let me give some examples....

1. Anyone can lead the worship with song etc.....
2. In Awana- all the parents particpate in teaching or listening to verses
3. Individuals sign up to teach Sunday school or children's church- Instead of having one person "in charge"

In bible study- we have a leader, scripture is discussed. Each person is free to ask questions or add to the study.....

To many churches have "traditons" such as you do, this and then this and then this.....why becuase that is the way it has been done.

However some of those things may not be biblical.

I hope that makes sense. One more example. Last night we were studying Silas and a discussion began. A few people volunteered to research a question more and bring it back to the group. We all feel like we have a part in things- I am not afraid of stepping on someones toes, like in other churches.

God Bless

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 07:35 PM
Hi- no most churches do not go by the Bible, but what the denomination teaches.......

Are you talking about denominations who don't have bibles? Every church denomination I've been to uses the bible.


We do have a Pastor and our fellowship is called a church. But, we don't follow rituals...

let me give some examples....

1. Anyone can lead the worship with song etc.....
2. In Awana- all the parents particpate in teaching or listening to verses
3. Individuals sign up to teach Sunday school or children's church- Instead of having one person "in charge"

In bible study- we have a leader, scripture is discussed. Each person is free to ask questions or add to the study.....

To many churches have "traditons" such as you do, this and then this and then this.....why becuase that is the way it has been done.

However some of those things may not be biblical.

I hope that makes sense. One more example. Last night we were studying Silas and a discussion began. A few people volunteered to research a question more and bring it back to the group. We all feel like we have a part in things- I am not afraid of stepping on someones toes, like in other churches.

God Bless

I'm not following on what you mean by "rituals" and "traditions". Does your group have holy communion (eucharist, Lord's supper), pray, fast, read scripture aloud, sing psalms etc. Are those things not "tradition" and "ritual" to you?
Or do you mean that you all do those things, but you do them the way you have all agreed to.:hmm:

jeffreys
Nov 19th 2007, 08:10 PM
Hi- no most churches do not go by the Bible, but what the denomination teaches.......

We do have a Pastor and our fellowship is called a church. But, we don't follow rituals...

let me give some examples....

1. Anyone can lead the worship with song etc.....
2. In Awana- all the parents particpate in teaching or listening to verses


Alaina... You might want to be aware of the fact that AWANA is very much a denominational curriculum. ;)

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 09:33 PM
Are you talking about denominations who don't have bibles? Every church denomination I've been to uses the bible.


I'm not following on what you mean by "rituals" and "traditions". Does your group have holy communion (eucharist, Lord's supper), pray, fast, read scripture aloud, sing psalms etc. Are those things not "tradition" and "ritual" to you?
Or do you mean that you all do those things, but you do them the way you have all agreed to.:hmm:
Ok- I did ministry for years and worked with alot of churches. For this ministry I attended many, many churches. I also worked with the YMCA for many years ...so I have met lot's of people of all denominations.

Ok- I :Dam going on a rant - Be nice;)

Please...if your are in one of these denominations, please don't take it the wrong way.

Persbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, Southern Baptist ect....... churches- Here are just some of my observations from over the years.....

1. Lighting candles, reciting certain prayers in a certain order or repeating after the Pastor with out teaching what is being repeated.

2. I have been in many , many churches of the above denominations as well as others where:
no one had a bible
no scripture was cited in the sermon
no biblical truth was explained
the preacher, preached on a topic and maybe included a line of scripture...but we are told in the Bilble, that the Bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures...how can you search them, if you are not reading , learning and studying them.

Bible studies may be from a life way book- or Joyce Meyers ect.....but what is being taught is the opinion of that person, not what the bible teaches.

How many churches uphold, the qualifications for bishop or elder? How many church members live in open sexual sins- or other open sin? They will say teh bible is an evolving document...it is old fashioned, we need to modernize it , so we say having sex out of marriage is ok.

How many churches have "relgion", but no changed lives?

Some denominations, teach infant baptism or other "works" save you....why, becuase they have always taught it.

In some churches people control the ministires, like it is their life. They bicker and quarel and are so jealeous, over who has the largest sunday school atendance, they will do anything to fill a room.

How many churches forget to teach about eternal damnation or repentance for sin?


Jefffreys
Now I want to comment on the Awana- I have no idea what denomination it is. I openly disagree with their pre-tribualtion raptrue teachings and my children know that and so do the other teachers and the pastor. But, what the program teaches, is excellent and it provides a place you can invite kids to, that may never otherwise hear the gospel, or have never heard it before.

I was an Awana leader, when my daughter was little, and we always had the freedom to teach in counselling time, beyond the book. I have seen kids get saves, then parents get saved. The basis for Awana is that we use the club to allow Christian fellowship, spiritual growth and a ministry that we can use to take the gopsel to the community.

I can not tell you how many kids I have councselled, that attend a church and never heard the gosepl of Christ. Never heard about repentace or being born again...never knew about hell? Why becuase their church doesn't teach it..and you know what i have confronted Pastors as has my husband and the answer we get is ' we just don't teach like that here." i have had Pastor's not be able to explain how a person is saved. I have kids tell me- I never knew I had to get save. We ask them how long they have been in church, they say their whole lives.

OK- I am done for now.

If you have specific questions, please ask....:)

God Bless,
Alaina

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 09:56 PM
Ok- I did ministry for years and worked with alot of churches. For this ministry I attended many, many churches. I also worked with the YMCA for many years ...so I have met lot's of people of all denominations.

Ok- I :Dam going on a rant - Be nice;)

Forgive me, but your Hello Kitty with a rifle avatar is a bit intimidating. :lol: Will you shoot if I say you didn't really answer the question. :)

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 09:59 PM
Forgive me, but your Hello Kitty with a rifle avatar is a bit intimidating. :lol: Will you shoot if I say you didn't really answer the question. :)
Tell me specifically what you want me to answer- i am not sure what you are asking about?

I thought I gave specific details on "tradions" of "religion". But, please ask a specific question and I will try to answer it.

Oh- my Kitty actually has an AK-47, but is't not loaded right now.:)

CrunchyChristian
Nov 19th 2007, 10:10 PM
Not to sound like I'm picking on you. But this always strikes me as queer when one states they stick to the bible and not the traditions of men. What do people think the bible is, but a tradition (of the church) carried on by men.

Matthew 15:3

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

There are many things that the modern day "church" do that it not biblical, but traditions that they have created.

I am not part of an institutionalized "church." I attend a prayer meeting once a week where anyone is able to bring forth a teaching. Wherever "two or three are gathered", there you have the Church.

I highly suggest you read The Harlot Church System by Charles Elliot Newbold Jr. It seems his website is down right now, but you can read it from the following website as well. I have to add this disclaimer though, that I know nothing about the website that I am posting, just that they have his book online.

The Harlot Church System (http://www.therealchurch.com/articles/the_harlot_church_system_part_1.html)

My the Holy Spirit speak to your heart...

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 10:10 PM
AlainJ, What does your group do besides study scripture? Maybe you did answer and I didn't get it. Perhaps you meant that your group does some things like pray etc, but not the other things you mentioned as "tradition" and "religion".

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 10:15 PM
Matthew 15:3

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

There are many things that the modern day "church" do that it not biblical, but traditions that they have created.

I am not part of an institutionalized "church." I attend a prayer meeting once a week where anyone is able to bring forth a teaching. Wherever "two or three are gathered", there you have the Church.

I highly suggest you read The Harlot Church System by Charles Elliot Newbold Jr. It seems his website is down right now, but you can read it from the following website as well. I have to add this disclaimer though, that I know nothing about the website that I am posting, just that they have his book online.

The Harlot Church System (http://www.therealchurch.com/articles/the_harlot_church_system_part_1.html)

My the Holy Spirit speak to your heart...

I only read a bit, but it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Babylon and Zion at war....:confused

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 10:21 PM
AlainJ, What does your group do besides study scripture? Maybe you did answer and I didn't get it. Perhaps you meant that your group does some things like pray etc, but not the other things you mentioned as "tradition" and "religion".
Ok-

We have Sunday school every Sunday morning, for Adults, teens and kids. We all take turns teaching, as the Holy Spirit guides us. The kids have lessons to complete too. But we don'ty use " extra books" we go through the bible and study a book or a topic.

We have a worship service every Sunday morning, with various kinds of music. We testify, praise and pray. The Pastor preaches for about 45 minutes.

Sunday night we have bible study for 45 minutes followed by our Awana program and outreach ministry.

We have fellowship mwetings for women and men twice a month, activities for the kids ect......evrything you would find in a big denominational church...(I think)

God Bless

OH-
During the week we have small group bible study and mid-week prayer meetings. We take turns meeting in small groups in someones home.

amazzin
Nov 19th 2007, 11:19 PM
To develope one idea mentioned, i have a question. Is it possible for those in the church to reproduce those original house churches mentioned in the bible? I can't find a local church that accepts children or that will teach only what the bible says, not add or take away with human ideas.
What i'm saying is in therory a house church could grow into a big 100's congregation and remain biblical and family based but i've never seen it. The bible says teachers/ those in positions of authority will be judged more harshly than the congregation. Isn't this unfair as becoming a leader and being a good one is very differcult.
If people feel i need to start a new topic i can?

SoT

Let me share this with you and others. I am a former meha church pastor so I have a prospective on both ends.

I recently started a new church plant in my home. It stated with 20 people. It quickly over grew my home capacity, not to mention my neighbours complaining of all the traffic in front of my house. We had no choice but to move the "home church" into its own building. Today, it is a church of over 80 after 4 months of existance.

There comes apont in time whena home church outgrows its capacity. It then is forced to either divide into more homes or move into a larger building. Home churches are not wrong except that if they are not growing like in early church history then it stays stagnant.

Brother Mark
Nov 20th 2007, 12:13 AM
SoT

Let me share this with you and others. I am a former meha church pastor so I have a prospective on both ends.

I recently started a new church plant in my home. It stated with 20 people. It quickly over grew my home capacity, not to mention my neighbours complaining of all the traffic in front of my house. We had no choice but to move the "home church" into its own building. Today, it is a church of over 80 after 4 months of existance.

There comes apont in time whena home church outgrows its capacity. It then is forced to either divide into more homes or move into a larger building. Home churches are not wrong except that if they are not growing like in early church history then it stays stagnant.

Well, I might disagree just a little my brother on the growing part. Do you mean growing numerically or spiritually? As long as a church is growing spiritually, isn't that a good thing?

CrunchyChristian
Nov 20th 2007, 12:22 AM
Do you mean growing numerically or spiritually? As long as a church is growing spiritually, isn't that a good thing?

Amen. I believe numbers have become way too important in today's "churches."

I was at a wedding a few weeks ago, and there were two "church" leaders from two different "churches" sitting behind me. Do you know what they talked about the entire time? How big 'their' (not God's) "church" had grown. What they were going to build next. How big their worship service was. Not one mention of how many people were growing in the Lord. Not one mention of what they were doing in their community. Not one word about how the Lord was moving. It was so sad. It is sad, that the majority of "churches" out their now have that mentality.