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A820djd
Nov 17th 2007, 09:55 PM
Also I thought Jesus was GOD in the flesh.. So does that mean he worshipped himself? Bit of a paradox goin' on there when people say he's the son of God but also God...

calidog
Nov 17th 2007, 10:05 PM
the answer would be yes

amazzin
Nov 17th 2007, 10:09 PM
Also I thought Jesus was GOD in the flesh.. So does that mean he worshipped himself? Bit of a paradox goin' on there when people say he's the son of God but also God...

Of course he did. He was the son of God but He was also the Son of man. He worshipped God through prayer, for example. He prayed to God often and prayer is a form of worship

Slug1
Nov 17th 2007, 10:38 PM
The way He worshiped set the example for us, how we're to worship and lead a Christlike life as close as "we" can.

mccain22
Nov 18th 2007, 12:12 AM
I believe your answer is in Philipians 2:5-9

Bunyan's Pilgrim
Nov 18th 2007, 01:01 AM
The Trinity states that: (1) there is only one God by nature (2) there are three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) who all share the divine nature (3) and that all three Persons are distinct.

Jesus, the Son, in His incarnation took upon Himself a human nature and was 100% God and 100% man. When He worshiped God was he worshipping Himself? When He was praying to God was He praying to Himself? No, in His human nature he was worshipping the Father who was God, because that is the proper duty of man.

A820djd
Nov 18th 2007, 01:07 AM
The Trinity states that: (1) there is only one God by nature (2) there are three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) who all share the divine nature (3) and that all three Persons are distinct.

Jesus, the Son, in His incarnation took upon Himself a human nature and was 100% God and 100% man. When He worshiped God was he worshipping Himself? When He was praying to God was He praying to Himself? No, in His human nature he was worshipping the Father who was God, because that is the proper duty of man.


That kind of gets back to the same question... God as a man was worshipping himself.

th1bill
Nov 18th 2007, 01:30 AM
That kind of gets back to the same question... God as a man was worshipping himself.
You're running around in a circle. It was already explained that everything Jesus did was for an example to us, that we might lead a proper life. We do so by following His example. And then there is the life example of the Trinity. My wife, my son and I made a complete family. My wife got me out of bed, fed me, washed my clothes and much more and yet she lived to serve me more. My son was and is the delight of my life and yet he wants nothing more than to eventually be just like me. Those are, minor yes, but they are forms of worship, but why? We were all the one family. Jesus was God in the flesh and yet He was not the Father. There is no paradox, you just haven't lived long enough, I guess, to see life clearly yet.

Bunyan's Pilgrim
Nov 18th 2007, 02:02 AM
That kind of gets back to the same question... God as a man was worshipping himself.
The third point above in the definition of the Trinity states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct Persons. Another way of saying that is this: The Father IS NOT the Son. The Son IS NOT the Father. So when Jesus prays to the Father, He is not praying to Himself because He is not the Father.

When we observe our blessed Lord in the Gospels and how He interacted with the Father, we do not want to fall into modalism.
Modalism is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ. Because a modalist believes that Jesus and the Father are the same Person, they look at Jesus praying to the Father in the gospels and conclude that Jesus was praying to Himself. A modalist denies the third point in the definition of the Trinity as defined by classical Christianity.

A820djd
Nov 18th 2007, 02:06 AM
You're running around in a circle. It was already explained that everything Jesus did was for an example to us, that we might lead a proper life. We do so by following His example. And then there is the life example of the Trinity. My wife, my son and I made a complete family. My wife got me out of bed, fed me, washed my clothes and much more and yet she lived to serve me more. My son was and is the delight of my life and yet he wants nothing more than to eventually be just like me. Those are, minor yes, but they are forms of worship, but why? We were all the one family. Jesus was God in the flesh and yet He was not the Father. There is no paradox, you just haven't lived long enough, I guess, to see life clearly yet.


Uhm, so let's straighten this out...

Jesus worshipped God in Heaven, but Jesus is God in the flesh, but is also the son of God, which would make himself the son of himself... I'm not running around in a circle I'm just trying to get one of you to explain it so you don't just say "Yes. Those are true." I am wondering... I thought Jesus was the son of God and worshipped his father God in heaven. Thats how I thought it was...

Bunyan's Pilgrim
Nov 18th 2007, 02:08 AM
Uhm, so let's straighten this out...

Jesus worshipped God in Heaven, but Jesus is God in the flesh, but is also the son of God, which would make himself the son of himself... I'm not running around in a circle I'm just trying to get one of you to explain it so you don't just say "Yes. Those are true." I am wondering... I thought Jesus was the son of God and worshipped his father God in heaven. Thats how I thought it was...
You have a modalistic view of the nature of God. Please read my above post.

calidog
Nov 18th 2007, 03:22 AM
Perhaps that Jesus was fully man, yet fully God, makes it difficult to comprehend..It does for me anyway.

Follow_Me_Infantry
Nov 18th 2007, 10:45 AM
Uhm, so let's straighten this out...

Jesus worshipped God in Heaven, but Jesus is God in the flesh, but is also the son of God, which would make himself the son of himself... I'm not running around in a circle I'm just trying to get one of you to explain it so you don't just say "Yes. Those are true." I am wondering... I thought Jesus was the son of God and worshipped his father God in heaven. Thats how I thought it was...

I know it can be a difficult concept, Scott: We're human, so we know existence in this one form, on this one plane, except when we believe in ghosts.

Christ is one part of God's identity. Christ worshiped His other 2 parts. He gave up His right to be worshiped when He volunteered to become flesh as atonement for our sins.

Think of it like this: We have a brain, and we have a heart. Neither can exist without the other: The brain tells the heart to pump, which sends oxygenated blood to the brain so that the brain stays alive to tell the heart to stay alive. Without all 3 (brain, heart, blood), we die; 2 of the same heart won't keep us alive, and neither will we live if we remove 1 part of the chain.

The brain and the heart makes us alive. But they are two totally different organs - they don't look alike, they don't serve the same function, they are totally different. But they are both us, or at least that part of us that lives.

Just as we are we because we have a heart and a brain, so is God because He has 3 parts - they are all His "we," but they don't look alike, they serve different functions (to an extent, of course - remember, we are trying to analogize an omnipotent God with human things), they are different, but they are ONE. One cannot survive without the other.

When Jesus came to Earth, He willingly separated Himself from the rest of Him: Essentially, He was able to remove the brain from the heart and yet somehow, He survived. We can't explain this, because we just don't understand this separation as separated but still together. Our minds cannot comprehend this seemingly opposable concept. How can 1 thing be three parts with 1 part removed? But that is God, and nothing is beyond God's ability to do - including denying fact as we understand it.

What Jesus did was separate Himself (the heart) from His other pieces, God (the brain), and the Holy Spirit (the blood). Prayer was Jesus using the Spirit to communicate with God. The heart used the blood to feed the brain, the brain used the blood to keep the heart alive.

This really isn't coming out the way I wanted. I'm sorry, I'm trying. Bear with me just a bit more, my friend.

When Jesus came to Earth, He basically gave up being God for a while. Because He still IS God, He couldn't sin and deny His own nature. But He gave up everything else - He became just like us, where He needed prayer to be in communication WITH God. He was still 1/3 OF God, He just denied all privileges of the power so He would be, essentially, a Human Being, needing prayer to talk to His other 2/3rds.

We call God "The Father" and Jesus "The Son" because there is no Human word for being the exact same thing but as a piece of that exact same thing.

So no, Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, as God does not worship flesh, and Christ became flesh. In His ministry here, Jesus never told us He worshiped Himself - He worshiped His Father, as He was now flesh, and The Father was still 100% pure God.

When Jesus prayed, He restored the line of communication He willingly broke - just as without prayer we have no communication lines with God, so it was with Jesus in the flesh. He was missing a part of Himself, and prayer restored that communication. The flesh of Jesus worshiped God, again, just as we do.

ServantofTruth
Nov 18th 2007, 02:28 PM
Clear case for moving this topic? A forum for guys talking about guy things? Unless we are saying Jesus was a guy, God is a guy??? (3 question marks for the trinity?) and we're all guys - i hope! The Holy Spirit is male? Let's take this to the correct forum, where's a moderator when you need one?:lol:

ServantofTruth
Nov 18th 2007, 02:34 PM
In my study of John's gospel i have something to help or confuse this issue even more. God is made up of 3 parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All parts are seperate while one. But here's a lovely thought from my study guide - 2 parts are not greater than 1. They are the same. So if you seperate the 3 parts they are all equal. But if you take any 2 together and the other seperately they are also equal. Please someone explain that to me. I believe some 'thinkers' think too much!:eek:

Slug1
Nov 18th 2007, 02:39 PM
Faith = Belief

Why try to understand it?

An egg is made of 3 parts but it's an "egg" :lol:

Scruffy Kid
Nov 18th 2007, 03:06 PM
Hi Scott (Scottizzle)! :hug:
Nice to have you here at Bibleforums. :pp :pp :pp Though you've been here a while I don't think we've met before!

Let me explain how I see the matter that you ask about.
I hope this helps!

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid


Jesus, in his Prayer,
Makes Clear that He is Distinct From the Father

First, it is evident -- quite apart from worship -- that Jesus was a person, a being, distinct from God the Father, for Jesus prayed (Matt. 14:23, 17:21, 19:13, 26:36, 39,42, 44, 26:53; Mark 1:35, 6:46, 9:29, 14:32, 35, 39, Luke 5:16, 9:18, 9:28-29, 11:1, 22:32, 22:41, 44, 45; John 14:16, 17:9, 15, 20, and all of John 17, Hebrews 5:7).

Jesus repeatedly withdrew by himself to pray. He prayed before selecting the 12, and on the Mount of Transfiguration. He prayed that the devil would not succeed in leading Peter away. He prayed for all the disciples, including those who would come later, like us. (John 17) He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, so earnestly that drops of sweat fell like blood. Jesus thanked the Father and told the Father that Jesus knew that the Father always listened to Jesus (John 10). He said that if he asked the Father, the Father would send 10 legions of angels. Also, we are told (Heb 7:25, Rom 8:34) that Jesus still prays for us: that he always lives to make intercession for us. Jesus taught us to pray "Your will be done" in the Lord's prayer; in Gethsemane he was so appalled by the cross that he asked the Father that, if it were possible, that cup might pass from him; but then added, "nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done."

Since Jesus prayed to the Father, spoke of the Father hearing him, noted that the way he would get certain things would be by prayer, thanked the Father, and so on, it is evident that there was a dialogue -- conversation between distinct persons -- between them. Evidently, then, the Father is a person distinct from Jesus. That continues to be the case in heaven, or now: Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us.

Also, in passing, we may note that the Holy Spirit, also, prays, that is makes intercession for us, within us (Rom. 8:26).

Note particularly, that Jesus in Gethsemane speaks to God the Father bringing His own human inclinations before God, and both asking that God would give Him these, but also asking that God would override these, that the Father would accomplish the Father's own will despite Christ's prayer, if the two were incompatible. This makes especially clear both the distinctness of Christ and God the Father, and also the complete yielding of Jesus to the will of the Father, in prayer.


However, Scripture Also Makes Clear that
Jesus is God

(I won't go into this so fully, as your main question in your post was about the distinctness of Jesus and God the Father. We can discuss it more if you are want to ask more about it.)

Jesus proclaims his eternal nature, saying "Before Abraham was, I am." Phillipians 2 tells us that Jesus was "equal with God". John 1:1 tells us that Jesus, that is the Word, "was with God and was God." In establishing the language in which Jesus is "the Son" in relation to "the Father" Jesus makes clear that He is the unique, the only, Son of God. This sonship likewise implies God's unique Fatherhood as the Father of Jesus. Thus, Jesus is not, like us, an adopted son or daughter, not a created being, but the eternal Son: the one who has the very same properties as His Father. That is, Jesus is God. God from God. Jesus speaks, for instance in Matt. 5-7 as if He has the authority to speak equal to God, for God spoke to Moses, and gave Moses His words, but Jesus speaks on his own authority, giving that an equal authority. Similarly, Jesus assumes, on his own authority, to forgive sins. The pious bystanders, shocked, say to themselves "But only God alone can forgive sins"! They are right! In his assuming the authority to forgive sins Jesus acts as only God can act. After the resurrection, the disciples recognize who Jesus is, and worship him. One may only worship God, but He does not forbid them to do this. We have the exclamation of Thomas when he meets the resurrected Jesus "My Lord, and my God!" Again, this is accepted by Jesus, and by the text, as a proper response. Just as Jesus, on the cross, committed His spirit into the Father's hand, so Stephen, at his martyrdom, asks Jesus to receive his spirit.

Other Scriptures also discuss that there is another, distinct, person and being, the Holy Spirit; Who is equal with the Father and the Son, and like Jesus, Who now comes to us. The entry into the Christian life which Jesus left with the Apostles to be the way all come to God is baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; and that has been the character of baptism in all the church and from the beginning.

Jesus taught his disciples that he was God -- completely one with the Father (John 17) -- yet at the same moment prayed to the Father. We have here the clear teaching which the Bible gives us about God: There is but one God, yet God is three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


The Eternal Life of God

God made all things. Before He created them, they did not exist. The "all things" God created does not just include son and moon, stars, galaxies, the earth and other planets, potatoes, trees, and antelopes, the seas and continents, and human beings: it also includes the framework of time and space in which we live, and the laws of chemistry and physics which causes the whole to go on existing and hang together.

It follows that God existed prior to all this, for He formed it all, made it from nothing -- that is, brought it into being where without His creating there would not be anything at all. When we say, though, "God existed prior to all this", we do not mean that God was sitting around, for a very long time, in an empty universe with no toys to play with. The whole framework of time (and space) is part of what God created. Thus, the "prior to" refers not to an earlier point in time (our time, here in the universe) but to the fact that God's being is original, where ours is derived and contingent.

This is somewhat like the relation between an author and a book he writes. If the book has characters, the characters are (so to speak) created by the author. The author exists "prior to" the characters -- even if the author lives in the twentieth century, and the novel is set in the 18th century, or Roman times. The priority of the author is due to his existing "before" the characters not in the timeline in which the characters live, but "before" -- "before" and "after", in fact!! -- the whole framework of time in which the characters, as characters, find themselves.

God, similarly, has the fullness of His being apart from, and prior to, any created being. In fact, God does not exist primarily for our sake; and His life is not primarily about the created order. Rather, God is infinitely more than all the universe, and the vastness of His life and being is infinitely greater than all created things, and the lesser (but still tremendous and startling) vastness of time and space.

I John 4:8 and 4:16 tell us that God is love. In context, true, John is mainly emphasizing the need for us to love, and the fact that our love comes from God -- "we love because He first loved us" -- and most particularly that God sent his only son to be the propitiation (hilasmon), the offering or gift, that takes away our sins. However, in thus describing the very nature of God, John is also articulating a further truth about the eternal life of God. This same point is made in John 1:1 where we are taught that in the beginning Christ, the Word, "was with God and was God." Again, at I John 1:3, we are told that John writes to us so that we might have fellowship with John, but that this fellowship is, really, the fellowship of the Father and the Son. That is, the promise of eternal life for us is the promise of entry into the eternal life of God, the eternal fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The eternal life of God is the life of love: the complete and full love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Thus, in eternity, "in heaven" if you like, God exists, eternally, beyond time and space, in complete community of fellowship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The greatness of God -- the greatness of the individual persons, and the greatness of the mystery of absolute being that they are, the greatness of the complete unity of their being, the greatness of that love -- is something that we can't even begin to imagine or understand. Yet this, the life of love of God, far beyond all that is created, is the very heart of what it is to exist, and to be persons, to know, to love.

God, in His enormous kindness, has made other things, that (in our small way) we may also have the joy of existence, and made human beings, especially, "in His own image" so that we might be able to participate in our own (small) way in knowing the greatness of Who God is: that we might be able to love one another, and know one another, and above all to love and know God. This is the source and meaning and fulfillment of our being: it is the life of the fellowship of the saints in the worship and praise of God which is promised to us.


Back to Your Question:
How Is It that
Jesus, Being Himself God, worshipped God

Jesus, clearly, was a human being, just as you and I are (but without sin). He was born. He grew. He needed food. As a baby, he could not speak, and needed to be cared for: washed, fed, held, and protected from danger. He did not know many things: how to walk and talk, how to use tools or read the scriptures, and so on. The Bible tells us that he was obedient to his parents, and grew and learned.

Yet he was also God, from the moment of his conception: that is, the very person who was conceived and born was that same person who also eternally is God (specifically, God the Son). The person who was conceived and then born, the son of Mary who lived in Nazareth in the last years of the first century BC, was the same person as the eternal Son of God the Father. The "second persons of the Trinity", the eternal Word and Son of God, took on human flesh, human nature, fully to live life subject to all the limitations of being a human being. In fact, also, as a human being, Christ -- God the Word, God the Son, whose life is Eternal, unchanging, and deathless, who made the stars and all things -- was able to do some things that, in his Divine existence, his life as God, he could not do: be born, be ignorant, grow, suffer, die.

God (God the Son) became man, took up the business of being a human being, not by ceasing to be God, but by taking on a life as a human being, commencing life as a particular creature, a baby who had a definite location in time and space, and particular parents, and all the needs and limits that any human being, any creature (created being) has. It is not that he "stopped being God" -- that would be impossible, for the Divine nature is Eternal, and deathless, and cannot come to an end, and never had a beginning, and that God-ness is something the Eternal Word and Son of God fully possesses -- but rather than he started a life subject to human limitations, a life as a creature, a life in which he lived ignorant, weak, vulnerable, having to work to make things happen, and having to grow, learn, and suffer. He wept when bereaved. His guts were wrenched by the suffering he saw. He could be injured. He could be captured, condemned, tortured, killed.

And thus this was a life in which his relationship to God the Father was one that was worked out in time and space, rather than being lived in eternity. He asked things from God the Father, and he took time to be with God (the Father). The Holy Spirit, also, came to empower him. He spoke with the Father, and the Father spoke to Him.

In all this (in prayer and worship for instance, and in love, and willingness to submit to God, and in long-suffering love for humankind even in our sinfulness) Jesus, as man, lived out, under human conditions, the same life (the same motions of heart and being) that he always and eternally lives out as God. God the Son, the Eternal Word, always loves and worships and obeys the Father, always has compassion upon humanity, always receives the Holy Spirit. Jesus' acts as a human being are not at variance with his eternal life with God, and as God, but rather are the expression in human circumstances of that changeless and eternal life. (That is part of why he is called "the word", the expression, of God.)


Summary

God eternally exists, one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is completely one, yet subsists in three persons, each of whom is fully God. Of course this is something that is somewhat beyond our human experience of personhood! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in one sense one, yet also distinct, and in a relationship of love, and dialogue, with one another.

All were at work, together, in the making of our universe: of time and space and of all that fills them, and of the laws of our being, and of galaxies, seas and land, plants and animals, and of human beings who are made in God's image, to love and to know one another, and God.

When humankind fell, alienating ourselves from God, and separated by our sinful disposition and deeds from the life for which we were made, the satisfaction of our being in our relationship with God, "God sent his own Son" to be with us -- that is, God the Son and eternal Word, by the eternal counsel of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, took on human flesh and became a man -- to bring us to God.

As man, Christ Jesus lived out the life of God in human conditions, human form: loving humanity, and first and foremost loving God the Father. In this life of love, Jesus (here on earth) was speaking to God, loving God, just as in eternity he, God the Son, loves the Father, and is in obedient dialogue with God the Father. This dialogue of listening, knowing, love, adoration, and worship is the very life of God. Thus Jesus was not "talking to himself" when he prayed, but to the Father, was not "worshipping himself" when he adored God, but adoring and worshipping the Father -- just as he is always (beyond the confines of time and space) doing, as God, in the eternal life of the one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is, further, most fully expressed to us in Christ's cross, in Jesus embrace of human beings in love even to the point of suffering and death, and in His resurrection, in which this same love of God triumphs over the destructive foes of God and man.

Scruffy Kid
Nov 18th 2007, 04:32 PM
In my study of John's gospel i have something to help or confuse this issue even more. God is made up of 3 parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All parts are seperate while one. But here's a lovely thought from my study guide - 2 parts are not greater than 1. They are the same. So if you seperate the 3 parts they are all equal. But if you take any 2 together and the other seperately they are also equal. Please someone explain that to me. I believe some 'thinkers' think too much!:eek:


Some Major Points

We use words in various ways: I understand that you are saying that God exists as three things, or three existences, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But, normally there's a better way to put it than using the language of "parts." Ordinarily we would not say "three parts" because "part" implies that there is a thing which is divisible (divide-able), and a whole which is composed of parts.

While Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, distinct beings ("hypostases") and each exists in his own right, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is completely one, not divisible . The Father dwells in the Son and the Son in the Father. The Holy Spirit dwells in the Father and in the Son, and they in Him. Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three things like three stones in a row, or like me and my two brothers, much as I love them. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is of a completely different order: by the very nature of Who they are, none could be separate from the others: their eternal being is constituted in an eternal fellowship and mutual indwelling.

Thus, we would say that each (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) by Himself is fully and wholly God, yet the three are distinct from one another, and in fellowship with one another -- such fullness of fellowship and being that they are inseparable, and are one God. The Father is eternal. The Son is eternal. The Holy Spirit is eternal. Yet these are not three eternals, but one eternal. The Father is wholly glorious. The Son is wholly glorious. The Holy Spirit is wholly glorious. Yet these are not three glories, three gloriousnesses, but one glory, one gloriousness. And so in their complete community of life and love, and their mutual indwelling, the Father alone is God; the Son alone is God; the Holy Spirit alone is God; yet they are not three gods, but one God.


A Few Further Notes

(1) Where to get further clarification While everything I have said in this and the previous post is based on Scripture, it is also the clear confession of the Church through the ages. (Christ left his Church, his body, to continue his work, as Scripture clearly states, and guaranteed that the gates of hell would not prevail against her.) Thus, Christians have worked on the issues you raise through the ages, and early articulated the answers to the questions you raise. I have simply tried to give the answers the church has given through the ages. These were clearly expressed in the Bible, of course, but when questions such as have been asked in this thread were raised, careful philosophical answers were given by the great Christian writers of the early centuries. Particularly, the ideas were worked out (or a clear terminology in which to express them was worked out) by Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, and were expressed in the great creeds of the church.

Lots of what I said in this post, and the previous, paraphrases the Nicene Creed (in its final form), the Chalcedonian definition, and the Quicunque Vult (or "Athanasian creed"). The latter, the QQV, is particularly helpful in sorting out the questions ServantOfTruth asked.

(2) About wholes and parts in infinity. There is a rather developed understanding of "infinite sets" which was worked out, starting with the mathematician Georg Cantor in the late 19th century. According to this theory -- which is not, in its first principles, too difficult to understand -- what makes a set infinite is the fact that a part of the set is as large as the whole set. Thus there are just as many even numbers as there are whole numbers. (The number 1 corresponds to the even number 2; 2 to 4; 3 to 6; 4 to 8; 5 to 10; and so on.) If we combine two or three similarly infinite sets the resulting set is (in an important sense of the word) no "larger" than the sets that were combined, though of course it contains additional items to those in either set separately. And so on.

This reckoning how to handle mathematical objects which are "infinite" is not, of course, and for many reasons, the same as trying to understand the unlimitedness of God. What it does do for us is to show that when we go beyond things we ordinarily encounter, which are very bounded and limited, to items which are more extensive, in one way or another "non-limited", even in the context of mathematics, the ideas that we are accustomed to -- for instance, that one thing plus another thing is "more" than either separately -- no longer hold.

(3) The limits of our understanding -- and how we grow in understanding as we walk with God. Even when we are dealing with "earthly things" -- infinite sets of numbers, elementary particles in physics (which are both particles and waves), and so on -- we encounter situations in which something appears in two ways which seem to us to be incompatible, or combines in ways which defy our intuitions, which are based upon our everyday experience. Naturally, we are even further out of our depth when we come to things much more vast and fundamental, such as the nature of God.

We have images or analogies which we are given, which help a bit. And as we live out the Christian life, these things -- the oneness yet distinctness of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- come to make more sense, often, little by little. Not just in that we can formulate a precise and fully adequate picture or philosophical account, but in that we can start to understand the greatness and beauty of Who God is, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the mystery of the Incarnation -- the God-becoming-a-human-being -- of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

(4) There are many helpful words that express the utter unity of God in the union of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Circumincession, Circuminsession, Perichoresis, Co-Inherence, Mutual Indwelling, and so on. The Father lives, dwells, in the Son, and the Son in the Father (and the Holy Spirit in both and they in Him): this is called "circuminsession". (The roots combined into this word mean, roughly, sitting around in one another.) A word like "co-inherence", or a phrase like "mutual indwelling", similarly refers to this kind of shared life, and living, abiding, dwelling in one another. The Father moves, acts, within the Son, and the Son within the Father (and the Holy Spirit within both and they within Him): this is called "circumincession". (The roots combined into this word mean, roughly, moving around in one another.) A word like Perichorsesis is usually understood to mean the eternal "dance" of love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: that idea, again can be helpful in thinking of the dynamic interaction, the "movement" of the persons of the Trinity in one another. All these terms together are emphasizing the essential unity and closeness of the life of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

(5) An analogy: marriage. There is no exact analogy to the relation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course not: how could there be? God is above us, infinitely, in character, intellect, power, and so on. We are but dust, little bitty folks walking around with very limited experience and understanding. God made all the vastness of the universe, and all its laws and potentialities. Naturally we don't and can't understand Him very deeply. Naturally, the depths and mystery of His being is far beyond us, and beyond the angels.

However considering marriage may also help us further understand the unity of being in diversity of persons. Husband and wife, in a good, lifelong, marriage become one. One flesh -- that is fully one in the concrete expression of their being. This refers to more than the union of bodies, of course: oneness in action, finance, procreation, heart, and mind. They remain distinct, of course, as persons, as human beings. But they grow into very close unity of life, and are -- in many marriages I've known -- profoundly united. Each is more to the other than oneself is. There is astonishing depth and sympathy of understanding. The two are one. Further, the marriage itself, the unity of the two, the relationship, is a thing that has a kind of independent existence. Thus when God says (Gen. 1:26) "Let us make man in our own image, ... to be fruitful and multiply" God sets forth not just the individual human persons, but also the deep union of love as imaging, however faintly, the unity of the triune God.

(6) From our own experience of human beings we know that love, and the closeness of love, is something that happens between distinct human persons. For us, in our limited character and limited love, this does not really bring complete unity of persons. But for God, in a greater love and greater unity of being and a greater fullness of personhood, the integrity and distinctness of the persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not compromised or diluted in the complete union of being that the fullness of their mutual love and knowledge and personhood gives them.

ServantofTruth
Nov 18th 2007, 05:21 PM
Scruffy Kid - i'm sure your replies are meant to be helpful, but they are just far too long and probably cut and pasted? Can you not break it down into smaller pieces and write personally a reply? I've seen this on other topics and that people have replied similarly to how i am here, please shorten it and lets discuss slowly each piece.
For example i think you say that while each 'person' of God is seperate - like Jesus while on earth, he is still complete in the Godhead. Are you saying (a) the whole of God was there in Jesus - i don't think so from other bits - and nothing was elsewhere. or perhaps (b) although Jesus is seperate; parts of the Spirit and the father are present? obviously where the spirit is concerned i assume only after the baptism when the spirit desended and stayed on him.
Or something else. Why bother with trying to explain the other poster asked. Because this is my faith and i wish to understand scriptures more and the spirit reveals truths through fellow 'saved' people sometimes.

A820djd
Nov 18th 2007, 06:01 PM
I don't have problems believing Jesus is God in the flesh and also the son of himself? But this was more of a test to you guys... Try and explain it to a non believer so they'd believe you.. You got to read up a bit more... I'm just helping you guys add another tool to your arsenal. :D

amazzin
Nov 18th 2007, 06:12 PM
I don't have problems believing Jesus is God in the flesh and also the son of himself? But this was more of a test to you guys... Try and explain it to a non believer so they'd believe you.. You got to read up a bit more... I'm just helping you guys add another tool to your arsenal. :D
Learning from Scottizzle, now there's an idea!

Scruffy Kid
Nov 18th 2007, 07:29 PM
Hi, Servant of Truth!
Thanks for your reply.


My posts were written responding specifically to your questions

I tried to answer your question fully, and to break the answer down into short sections, with the main points highlighted. The questions you ask, though you state them simply, are not simple to answer accurately.

If the posts are too long, I suggest that you think of each section, set apart by its blue-boldface title, as a separate post, and read the sections one at a time.

My answer to you tried to answer what you had asked.

You asked a question -- asked for an explanation of how "2 parts are not greater than 1." It seemed that you were asking about the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
But here's a lovely thought from my study guide - 2 parts are not greater than 1. They are the same. So if you seperate the 3 parts they are all equal. But if you take any 2 together and the other seperately they are also equal. Please someone explain that to me. I did my best to answer:

(a) I explained that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, strictly speaking, are not "parts" of God. (Each is God, and they are completely united. God is the origin of all things, and therefore cannot be decomposed into parts. God is infinite (without internal or external limits) and therefore cannot be made of parts. God possesses the fullness of his being in a single act.) But there are three distinct persons, or beings, or entities -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- who are each and together God.

(b) Accepting, however, your terminology of "parts", I tried to explain how it could be that two parts are not greater than one. This may be seen in that the fullness of God is fully possessed by each of the persons of God. It may be seen in that the persons mutually indwell one another. Or it may sketchily be understood by analogy with infinite sets.

I was trying to be brief in condensing centuries of Christians' thinking about the questions you raised.


I wish to understand scriptures more and the spirit reveals truths through fellow 'saved' people sometimes.I took the trouble to do that -- it took hours -- exactly for the reason you give: to help you and others understand the scriptures more. I am writing not my own ideas, only, but what saved people have understood through the ages -- that is, what Christians have learned reflecting on the scriptures through the centuries.

I tried to be brief -- answering mostly in two paragraphs, about 270 words -- about the basic truth as Christianity gives it. These two short paragraphs were my basic answer to your post -- trying to sum up Christian thinking on the points you raised. I repeat them here.
While Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, distinct beings ("hypostases") and each exists in his own right, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is completely one, not divisible . The Father dwells in the Son and the Son in the Father. The Holy Spirit dwells in the Father and in the Son, and they in Him. Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three things like three stones in a row, or like me and my two brothers, much as I love them. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is of a completely different order: by the very nature of Who they are, none could be separate from the others: their eternal being is constituted in an eternal fellowship and mutual indwelling.

Thus, we would say that each (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) by Himself is fully and wholly God, yet the three are distinct from one another, and in fellowship with one another -- such fullness of fellowship and being that they are inseparable, and are one God. The Father is eternal. The Son is eternal. The Holy Spirit is eternal. Yet these are not three eternals, but one eternal. The Father is wholly glorious. The Son is wholly glorious. The Holy Spirit is wholly glorious. Yet these are not three glories, three gloriousnesses, but one glory, one gloriousness. And so in their complete community of life and love, and their mutual indwelling, the Father alone is God; the Son alone is God; the Holy Spirit alone is God; yet they are not three gods, but one God. The end notes In addition to these paragraphs, however, I gave some further notes, in case someone wanted to go into any of these points in more depth. I gave them separately, at the end of the explanation.

I specifically tried to reply to your point about 2 being no more than 1 out of the theory of infinite sets in mathematics. That was done specially to try to help your question.

Because the idea that God is (three) distinct persons yet one God I tried to develop an analogy to marriage, yet explain that it's a bit different also.


I did not "cut and paste" but responded personally
Difficult questions require solid answers, not just one liners


your replies are ... probably cut and pasted? ... Can you not ... write personally a reply?
Everything I wrote was written, this morning, and written by me and specially for you and for the OP. There was no "cutting and pasting": I wrote it all myself, and I wrote it "personally for you". I didn't copy it from somewhere else.

I think if you would take time to read more carefully what I spent several hours writing, to try to help you, it would be helpful, and not too hard to understand. I gave my best attempt to explain the vital issues of our faith.

your replies ... are just far too long .... Please shorten it and lets discuss slowly each piece.I'm happy to discuss things slowly.

However, I think that it's worth the time it takes to discuss matters of the faith thoroughly. Everyone studying to be a doctor would expect to learn medicine and anatomy at length. Everyone who wants to fly a plane, or sail a boat, knows that one has to learn a lot of technical material. The same is true for an astronomer, or a mechanic. Difficult subjects require careful study, and careful statement. If we care about the Christian faith -- care to understand clearly what it says -- we have to study it carefully. We have to state difficult matters with some care and preciseness.

The nature of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is at the core of the Christian faith.
Mistakes about this are disastrous, and it's easy to get it wrong.
So I think careful explanation is important, even if that adds some length.

Carefully reading what Christians through the ages have said about God as one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and about Christ as fully man and fully God, based on their careful reading of and thinking about the Bible, is challenging. It does involve a good deal of work; but the real difficulty is in letting our hearts and our minds receive the life-giving but challenging truth that God has revealed. It's a long-term effort, but worth it.


Your Further Questions


Are you saying ... the whole of God was there in Jesus Yes, " For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). He is the " the image of the invisible God" (1:15) for "it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (1:19)

i think you say that while each 'person' of God is seperate - like Jesus while on earth, he is still complete in the Godhead.
About Jesus being complete in the Godhead, "while" on earth. I also tried to indicate that Jesus living as a human being here on earth did not mean that Jesus ever ceased to be God in heaven. This is harder to see if you suppose that God is living through time just as we live through time. As I explained, God, in His eternal life, is beyond time and space, and He created time and space.

Thus I don't think that the eternal life of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was "interrupted" by the incarnation -- just as I don't think that if an author included himself as a character in a play he wrote, a character who appeared for a full week of time within the story of the play, talking with the other characters, he would disappear from his house and interrupt his life with his wife and kids for a week. The eternal life of God is one thing, our time and space is a different thing. Christ eternally reigns as God, with the Father and the Holy Spirit; but He also lived a life as a human being here on earth.

Thanks again for your reply!
I hope that helps.

In friendship,
Scruffy Kid

Scruffy Kid
Nov 19th 2007, 12:39 AM
Dear Scott,
I and others took the time to reply to your post thinking you were in doubt about the questions you raised, and did so out of concern for you.

I don't have problems believing Jesus is God in the flesh ... But this was more of a test to you guys.

Next time please post letting us know your purposes, so that we don't spend a lot of time (hours, in my case) and concern (I went to sleep and woke up concerned for you) trying to respond to problems of faith which could lead a valued board member astray into heresy only to find that it was just a puzzle you set us.

Thanks,
Scruff

A820djd
Nov 19th 2007, 02:41 AM
Dear Scott,
I and others took the time to reply to your post thinking you were in doubt about the questions you raised, and did so out of concern for you.


Next time please post letting us know your purposes, so that we don't spend a lot of time (hours, in my case) and concern (I went to sleep and woke up concerned for you) trying to respond to problems of faith which could lead a valued board member astray into heresy only to find that it was just a puzzle you set us.

Thanks,
Scruff


Well Scruff, don't you feel good that I can possibly save souls with some of your posts as well as you showing others? :)

th1bill
Nov 19th 2007, 03:02 AM
Uhm, so let's straighten this out...

Jesus worshipped God in Heaven, but Jesus is God in the flesh, but is also the son of God, which would make himself the son of himself...
That statement makes no sense at all. Do you not believe in the Triune God?


I'm not running around in a circle I'm just trying to get one of you to explain it so you don't just say "Yes. Those are true." I am wondering... I thought Jesus was the son of God and worshipped his father God in heaven. Thats how I thought it was...
This, bring coupled to that previous statement completes a full circle and you will need to run in a straight line to get an answer.

Toolman
Nov 19th 2007, 03:41 AM
Here is an excellent thread defending both the full deity and humanity of Jesus Christ.

Trinity Doctrine
(http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=98219&highlight=trinity)

A820djd
Nov 19th 2007, 03:33 PM
I believe that Jesus is the son of god and has a seperate soul than God in heaven. Also that he's God in the flesh. :D

th1bill
Nov 19th 2007, 04:18 PM
I believe that Jesus is the son of god and has a seperate soul than God in heaven. Also that he's God in the flesh. :D
I'm sorry, that did not qualify as an answer to the question that begs for a yes or no answer. All I have read to this point in this string indicates that you do not but I dislike drawing conclusions that are questionable about folks. Please, stop being slipery and answer for all to see. God already knows so you will not surprize Him and it moight point this question to the heart of the matter.

Arizona
Nov 21st 2007, 06:05 AM
Scruff,

Your time and effort here is truly impressive - well thought out and prepared. Even if Scottizzle admits he was trying to stir up a converstation here don't feel your time is wasted as you can be assured there are members here who need to understand exactly this subject.

Thank you for your help on this subject!

markedward
Nov 21st 2007, 06:14 AM
Also I thought Jesus was GOD in the flesh.. So does that mean he worshipped himself? Bit of a paradox goin' on there when people say he's the son of God but also God...Jesus is God, but He is not God the Father.

Surely you've heard of the Trinity by now?

God is, and always has been and always will be, what we call "the Trinity." He is One Being, God, but He is three individual persons who are each God but are not each other. God the Father is God. Jesus the Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit, but each is God.

The Son (also called "the Word" and "the Lamb" and "the Lion" and so on) is the only way a human has been able to see God. As Jesus said, no one has seen God the Father except for the Son. Throughout the Old Testament humans frequently saw God, but no one knew they were seeing the Son of God, rather than God the Father. When the Son physically manifested Himself through being born as Mary's human son, He was still the Son of God, He was still one person of the Trinity, but it was not God as a whole that was born as "Jesus." So when Jesus worshipped and prayed to God, He always prayed to God the Father, not to Himself.

God = The Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father ≠ His Son ≠ The Holy Spirit

One Divine Being
Three Persons

Look at it like this...

Time = Past, Present, Future
Past ≠ Present ≠ Future

Shape = Height, Width, Length
Height ≠ Width ≠ Length

Matter = Solid, Liquid, Gas
Solid ≠ Liquid ≠ Gas

Creation = Time, Shape, Matter
Time ≠ Shape ≠ Matter

Essentially, Time is a trinity, Size is a trinity, and Matter is a trinity, and Creation itself is a trinity of these trinities. They are distinctly different from one another, yet they are all equal and make up the same thing.

God is, in a way, similar; He is One Divine Being, yet He is three different persons who are distinctly different from one another, yet they are all equal.

A820djd
Nov 21st 2007, 10:07 PM
The post above me actually makes me understand a bit easier... As a christian do you think a non believer will honestly sit and listen to some1 say "oh he is one person but hes different ppl" u gotta break it down to them as if they were small stupid children. :)

Toolman
Nov 21st 2007, 10:17 PM
The post above me actually makes me understand a bit easier... As a christian do you think a non believer will honestly sit and listen to some1 say "oh he is one person but hes different ppl" u gotta break it down to them as if they were small stupid children. :)

Scott,

Do you actually think that the natural mind can understand the things of the Spirit?

If God gives someone a revelation of His nature then they will understand. If He does not then no amount of human explanation will do anything.

A820djd
Nov 21st 2007, 11:38 PM
Scott,

Do you actually think that the natural mind can understand the things of the Spirit?

If God gives someone a revelation of His nature then they will understand. If He does not then no amount of human explanation will do anything.


I disagree, if a non believer asks this question, we need to break it down in such a way so they can understand easily, otherwise they'll reject it.

Warrior4God
Nov 22nd 2007, 12:42 AM
Faith = Belief

Why try to understand it?

An egg is made of 3 parts but it's an "egg" :lol:

I think of God pretty much the same way. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all "separate parts" that make up a "whole." Each is still God while being separate from each other, as well as when together. The Bible indicates that nothing is impossible for God and that there are some mysteries of God that we will not fully understand while in our human form. The trinity is obviously one of them. I think it's good that we think and ponder on these things, but we also need to be humble and accept the fact that there are just some things that we may not fully comprehend...yet. :D

Toolman
Nov 22nd 2007, 02:12 AM
I disagree, if a non believer asks this question, we need to break it down in such a way so they can understand easily, otherwise they'll reject it.

God's nature cannot be understood easily. It is a spiritual revelation that is only given by God.

Man's natural state of sin will never understand or embrace the true nature of God. They will always reject it unless God works in their heart. If He does they will see the Truth.

All we can do is share what the scripture states and allow God's word and His Spirit to do the work, which He says will not return void.

There is nothing in the natural realm that you can point to that is like God. He is unique.

HornlessUnicorn
Nov 22nd 2007, 04:12 AM
I'm new here so please go easy on me if I'm mistaken.

Jesus was born a Jew, Joseph and Mary were Jewish and worshiped God the Father (the Creator, OT, etc.) Jesus is God the Son, who came to establish the Kingdom of Heaven in Israel as prophesied in the OT. Being the Messiah in the Hebrew prophecies, He brings down the Holy Spirit to spread through His word and His loving-kindness to connect the world of man with God the Father, who so loved the world that He sent Jesus, His son (John 3:16). So the Son brings the Word, equated to the Holy Spirit, from the Father, so that all three are united, and the Kingdom of God is established on Earth. That's just how I see it.

So I think where people get confused is that they think of it like Fight Club, where Ed Norton and Brad Pitt are the same person in one body, but they talk to one another, and I guess to extend this analogy then Project Mayhem would be the Holy Spirit? I'm not trying to be blasphemous I just really liked that movie. :)

liefm
Nov 5th 2008, 12:48 AM
I disagree, if a non believer asks this question, we need to break it down in such a way so they can understand easily, otherwise they'll reject it.

Brother it is written in, 1 Corinthians 2:14;
ESV- "14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:14%20;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-28392A)) folly to him, and(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:14%20;&version=47;15;16;45;65;#cen-ESV-28392B)) he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

YLT- " 14and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;"

AMP- "14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated."

MSG- "14-16The unspiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spiritóGod's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by unspiritual critics. Isaiah's question, "Is there anyone around who knows God's Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?" has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ's Spirit."

I hope this verse(s) may help someone. God's blessings:)

RemingtonJ16
Feb 11th 2016, 08:59 PM
The Trinity states that: (1) there is only one God by nature (2) there are three Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) who all share the divine nature (3) and that all three Persons are distinct.

Jesus, the Son, in His incarnation took upon Himself a human nature and was 100% God and 100% man. When He worshiped God was he worshipping Himself? When He was praying to God was He praying to Himself? No, in His human nature he was worshipping the Father who was God, because that is the proper duty of man.

Agreed with your answer to the question. anything else would be totally inadequate and unrepresentative of the truth in scriptures.

ewq1938
Feb 12th 2016, 05:15 AM
Also I thought Jesus was GOD in the flesh.. So does that mean he worshipped himself? Bit of a paradox goin' on there when people say he's the son of God but also God...

Jesus worshiped God THE FATHER.
Jesus is God THE SON.

There is no contradiction when one uses the full title/name for each.

jaybird
Feb 13th 2016, 04:57 AM
never made sense to me when people say when Jesus prayed He was doing it to set an example, if the prayer was for example purposes only then it would not be a real prayer. its like saying yes He was praying but He didnt mean it, He was only doing it for the others listening. and did Jesus not teach against this, praying for no reason other than for others to hear you, "dont be like the hypocrites on the corners"?
Jesus gives teachings on prayer and gives specific instructions, start like this, say this, end like this. this would be a teaching /example for others to hear. then you have passages of Jesus praying and He is asking the Father to keep His will strong, he prayed for simon, prayed to the Father for forgiveness for others and many times went off alone to pray. all these IMO are real prayers not examples, pouring His heart out to the Father, He needed the Fathers help.

jimisz
Feb 16th 2016, 03:10 PM
You have asked the right question. Actually, God is only one. Jesus is one step of God's plan.

ewq1938
Feb 16th 2016, 08:52 PM
You have asked the right question. Actually, God is only one.

God is not "one" as in one person or one in number. God is three. Those THREE are united as one God but remain as three as far as literal numbers go.

slightlypuzzled
Feb 17th 2016, 04:55 PM
You have asked the right question. Actually, God is only one. Jesus is one step of God's plan.

Jesus is the eternal Word/Son/Creator, as John teaches in his gospel.

jaybird
Feb 17th 2016, 06:38 PM
God is not "one" as in one person or one in number. God is three. Those THREE are united as one God but remain as three as far as literal numbers go.

when Jesus proclaimed "our Lord is one" in mark, was this "one" Jesus was referring to not a literal number?

shepherdsword
Feb 17th 2016, 10:30 PM
when Jesus proclaimed "our Lord is one" in mark, was this "one" Jesus was referring to not a literal number?

The Hebrew word used is "echad" and it means unity in plurality. It is the same hebrew word used when the bible says "And Adam knew his wife eve and they became one(echad)flesh. So the answer is no..it is not referring to a numeric quantity.

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Geoff Primanti
Feb 17th 2016, 10:34 PM
The third point above in the definition of the Trinity states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct Persons. Another way of saying that is this: The Father IS NOT the Son. The Son IS NOT the Father. So when Jesus prays to the Father, He is not praying to Himself because He is not the Father.

When we observe our blessed Lord in the Gospels and how He interacted with the Father, we do not want to fall into modalism.
Modalism is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ. Because a modalist believes that Jesus and the Father are the same Person, they look at Jesus praying to the Father in the gospels and conclude that Jesus was praying to Himself. A modalist denies the third point in the definition of the Trinity as defined by classical Christianity.

I personally believe in a combination of modalism and the Trinity that can be explained by the fact that God is outside of time, descended into time, and ascended again to be outside of time. Therefore the members of the Trinity are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God while they exist simutaneously next to each other and not consecutively in time. My post on 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 a little way down the list gives some scripture on why I believe this. But let me say that Ephesians 4:1-10 is primary. As soon as you understand that there is one Lord you have to ask which member of the Trinity is that one Lord and then you have to choose between Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 or both being one.

As for the OP...I think that the human part of Jesus worshipped His divine part according to most that I have listened to...but the Father is also in heaven while Jesus is on earth and as someone said, Jesus set the example for us by worshipping the Father, and being 100% Man it was certainly possible for Him to do this without worshipping Himself, if you consider His self to be His humanity or his human nature in the hypostatic union.

jaybird
Feb 17th 2016, 11:15 PM
The Hebrew word used is "echad" and it means unity in plurality. It is the same hebrew word used when the bible says "And Adam knew his wife eve and they became one(echad)flesh. So the answer is no..it is not referring to a numeric quantity.

Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

so this is a bible mistranslation? when Jesus says our Lord is one He really means our Lord is more than one?

ewq1938
Feb 17th 2016, 11:30 PM
when Jesus proclaimed "our Lord is one" in mark, was this "one" Jesus was referring to not a literal number?

It's HEIS there so yes it is a literal number. You should to go to biblehub.com then you can find these things out, type in the verse, then click on interlinear.

jaybird
Feb 17th 2016, 11:46 PM
It's HEIS there so yes it is a literal number. You should to go to biblehub.com then you can find these things out, type in the verse, then click on interlinear.

i was trying to follow what you said in post 43 when you said our Lord is 3 as far as literal #s go. and comparing that to what Jesus said, our Lord is one.

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 12:31 AM
i was trying to follow what you said in post 43 when you said our Lord is 3 as far as literal #s go. and comparing that to what Jesus said, our Lord is one.

I didn't say "Lord". I was speaking of God, the Trinity. There are three that are the Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Those 3 are only ONE (HEN) is a spiritual unity, in essence and purpose but are not ONE person as HEIS means.

When Christ said The Lord is one Lord and used HEIS he was speaking of God the Father himself who is a singular person, not the Trinity.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 01:03 AM
I didn't say "Lord". I was speaking of God, the Trinity. There are three that are the Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Those 3 are only ONE (HEN) is a spiritual unity, in essence and purpose but are not ONE person as HEIS means.

When Christ said The Lord is one Lord and used HEIS he was speaking of God the Father himself who is a singular person, not the Trinity.

Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

so in this statement here Jesus is not referring to the All High, The Almighty but He is referring to the Father?

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 01:17 AM
Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

so in this statement here Jesus is not referring to the All High, The Almighty but He is referring to the Father?

Well the context of the chapter is Jesus speaking about the Father when he speaks of God but the original writing of the First commandment was before the Trinity was revealed but naturally is all the Trinity.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 01:26 AM
Well the context of the chapter is Jesus speaking about the Father when he speaks of God but the original writing of the First commandment was before the Trinity was revealed but naturally is all the Trinity.


so Jesus is speaking of the All High and proclaims Him as one? or is this wrong?

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 01:59 AM
so Jesus is speaking of the All High and proclaims Him as one? or is this wrong?

Yes but this has nothing to do with the number within the Trinity. To be one Lord is no different than being one God. It doesn't speak to how many comprise these things just as there is one bride but that doesn't give the number of people that comprise the bride.

keck553
Feb 18th 2016, 02:02 AM
Jesus is both fully man and fully God. That which we see as fully man (the second Adam) worshipped God.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 02:53 AM
Yes but this has nothing to do with the number within the Trinity. To be one Lord is no different than being one God. It doesn't speak to how many comprise these things just as there is one bride but that doesn't give the number of people that comprise the bride.

it makes no sense why we would have this statement (the Almighty is one) in the first place when the All High, according to the trinity doctrine teaches the the All High is one but three persons.

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 03:09 AM
it makes no sense why we would have this statement (the Almighty is one) in the first place when the All High, according to the trinity doctrine teaches the the All High is one but three persons.

God is a Trinity of three. Scripture affirms this. The verse in Mark doesn't affect this at all.

God is one Lord (universal ruler) but God is not one person. Remember that the Father, Son and HS are ONE/HEN in essence and purpose and divinity...there are three of them :)

There are scriptures that call each one God proving they are all divine and form the God of the scriptures.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 03:59 AM
God is a Trinity of three. Scripture affirms this. The verse in Mark doesn't affect this at all.

God is one Lord (universal ruler) but God is not one person. Remember that the Father, Son and HS are ONE/HEN in essence and purpose and divinity...there are three of them :)

There are scriptures that call each one God proving they are all divine and form the God of the scriptures.

the verse in mark affects this a huge big deal to me because it says the All High is one. one to me means one and only one. three in one is not one.
and again, why would they put such emphasis on the Almighty being one? what exactly are they trying to teach with this?

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 04:03 AM
the verse in mark affects this a huge big deal to me because it says the All High is one. one to me means one and only one. three in one is not one.
and again, why would they put such emphasis on the Almighty being one? what exactly are they trying to teach with this?

Just go back to my other posts, I already explained how the verse in Mark doesn't change anything.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 04:27 AM
Just go back to my other posts, I already explained how the verse in Mark doesn't change anything.

please go back to my posts where i explain the verse makes no sense and teaches nothing when applied to this doctrine. it only seems to teach what you say if you add teachings that are not there.

the Almighty is one but actually three in one

the bold part is not part of the scripture, you have to add it to make this work

hope this makes sense

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 04:40 AM
the Almighty is one but actually three in one

the bold part is not part of the scripture, you have to add it to make this work

hope this makes sense

It is wrong so it doesn't make any sense. I don't add anything that isn't found in scripture.

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Trinity is all over scripture but these show them the clearest.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 05:05 AM
It is wrong so it doesn't make any sense. I don't add anything that isn't found in scripture

its the only way i can make sense of what you are saying. i am running out of ways to explain it. when Jesus says the Almighty is one, the only way to make this anything other than one (3 in 1 ) is to add something that is not there.

[/QUOTE]1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Trinity is all over scripture but these show them the clearest.[/QUOTE]

lets finish this one scripture before we get side tracked on others.

ewq1938
Feb 18th 2016, 05:18 AM
its the only way i can make sense of what you are saying. i am running out of ways to explain it. when Jesus says the Almighty is one,

He says one Lord not "one" by itself. Also, there is only one HEIS God. That doesn't address what comprises that one God nor does it equal three Gods. That's what you are failing to understand about the Trinity concept.

The best comparison is the bride of Christ. One woman, yet comprised of a huge number of persons. God is ONE GOD, comprised of three which are specifically father Son and Spirit.

No reason to keep saying the same thing over and over. If you have any other different points or verses then let me know.

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 05:37 AM
He says one Lord not "one" by itself. Also, there is only one HEIS God. That doesn't address what comprises that one God nor does it equal three Gods. That's what you are failing to understand about the Trinity concept.

The best comparison is the bride of Christ. One woman, yet comprised of a huge number of persons. God is ONE GOD, comprised of three which are specifically father Son and Spirit.

No reason to keep saying the same thing over and over. If you have any other different points or verses then let me know.

i keep saying things over and over because you dont seem to address what im saying over and over.

i may very well be failing to see what you are seeing but if the only way to see this is to put man made doctrines over scripture or add to the scriptures, then i may never see it.

SeekFirstTheKingdom
Feb 18th 2016, 06:21 AM
I see where you're coming from jaybird, I get it for sure. ewq is just referring to the two or three witnesses (the rest of the scripture) to point out what you're thinking Jesus meant or was saying isn't so.

It's sort of like when people point out that "Jesus isn't good, even he said so" (referring to the parable of the rich young ruler). Well let's say you were the one saying that verse proves Jesus isn't good, ewq bringing up context and referring to the whole of scriptures to make the point isn't avoiding your question or statement, but trying to show you you forest for the trees.

Moose
Feb 18th 2016, 06:42 AM
Also I thought Jesus was GOD in the flesh.. So does that mean he worshipped himself? Bit of a paradox goin' on there when people say he's the son of God but also God...

Here is a previous post about the relationship between Father & Son/salvation, it is long but i hope it explains what you are looking for:

It starts from the garden of eden.

You get a new spirit by believing in a word full of spirit from a father (male usually the donor of spirit)
Eve believed the word of satan and obtained the spirit of satan but Eve being female could not donate to her offspring. When Adam believed, things changed because he is a donor of spirit to his offsprings, now the original sin starts and affects all humanity.

God's attribute are eternal- His love, mercy, justice, grace can not contradict/conflict but 2 of His attributes seemed to contradict especially when man fell. He is eternally just and has to punish man but He also loved man and has to forgive him. God's word (full of life/truth, justice/love/mercy) took flesh because of this so that whosoever believes in Jesus (word became flesh) will not perish but receive mercy/love/justice all packaged in one.

Like i said earlier, believing in the word you obtain the spirit. Now, you may ask, why didn't God just talk so that men believe Him. Then i would also ask, what about His eternal Justice 'coz someone had to be punished. So God's word took on flesh to become Jesus who donates His spirit during His death to anyone who believes but it was the will of God to crush Jesus for our sake so that love and justice are accomplished.

Another interesting thing is the Father-son concept. It is the concept of salvation.
Jesus could not have had a human father because the human father would have donated sin to him and even if he died, he would have died because of his own sins. Simply, God's word full of His spirit took flesh to become Jesus hence the Father- son relation.

God's son=blameless/sinless
son of man=sin
Son of man coming with the cloud of heaven= glorified man

Jesus is referred to as son of God earlier on but He starts to call himself son of man when false accusations start to befall him- it is at this point that he starts to pick the sins of this world onto himself and appear as if he was a sinner.He dies and donates His spirit to men (who are then given the right to be called sons of God=blameless). Jesus is then raised and becomes a glorified son of man- Jesus must remain in this state forever. It is like a chemical equation, if Jesus is to return to His original form, then mankind looses salvation.

We see something like a separation from God and this happens only because He loved us AND God mourns like a Father mourning the loss of His only begotten son (the theme that is throughout the bible)

jaybird
Feb 18th 2016, 07:19 PM
I see where you're coming from jaybird, I get it for sure. ewq is just referring to the two or three witnesses (the rest of the scripture) to point out what you're thinking Jesus meant or was saying isn't so.

It's sort of like when people point out that "Jesus isn't good, even he said so" (referring to the parable of the rich young ruler). Well let's say you were the one saying that verse proves Jesus isn't good, ewq bringing up context and referring to the whole of scriptures to make the point isn't avoiding your question or statement, but trying to show you you forest for the trees.

i understand. but i want to add, if we can not accept teachings from the bible at face value, when Jesus says something is one but we come back and say what He really meant was its 3 in 1, then we are IMO making a big mistake. it opens the flood gates to add in what ever you want to hear.
like a said many times i believe that there is very much truth in the trinity doctrine. but the way it is taught today im not so sure is what Jesus was teaching. this is just my opinion and i am not trying to make a bold statement that its one way or another. i am just a student in all this.

chad
Feb 18th 2016, 08:13 PM
Did Jesus worship God?

Imo, during his life on earth, he worshipped God (the father in heaven). During his time on earth, he brought Glory to the father in heaven - in many ways:

Jesus:

Submitted to the Father in heaven.

Did the will of the Father.

Spoke the words of the father.

Obeyed the Father, even to death on the cross.

and brought Glory to the Father in these and many other ways.


In glorifying God in this way, he was also glorified, for Jesus was also God in the flesh.


(John 13:31 KJV) Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

(John 13:32 KJV) If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.


The NIV translation writes in Romans 12:1, offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - This is your act of Spiritual worship. This verse is indeed what Jesus did when he was on earth.

(Rom 12:1 NIV) Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.