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Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 07:49 PM
How do we stop glorifying violence and death? Seems one way or another we continue to do this in some form or another.
Or is it just the perception of people which brings this about? For instance we encourage strength, which can lead to violence or at least aggressiveness. Or when people die for what we believe to be a just cause we glorify it to further motivate others to follow suit.

I'm in a conflict about this. Whether it be Christians or those who are not Christians. I believe we are doing something wrong.

punk
Nov 19th 2007, 07:56 PM
How do we stop glorifying violence and death? Seems one way or another we continue to do this in some form or another.
Or is it just the perception of people which brings this about? For instance we encourage strength, which can lead to violence or at least aggressiveness. Or when people die for what we believe to be a just cause we glorify it to further motivate others to follow suit.

I'm in a conflict about this. Whether it be Christians or those who are not Christians. I believe we are doing something wrong.

In my opinion people who are deeply conscious of their own mortality are less likely to glorify violence and death (compare the soldier with many years on the battlefield to the new recruit).

The glorification of violence and death goes hand in hand with a basic implicit belief that "I" am never going to die. I mean this in the sense that younger people take risks because they basically don't believe anything is going to happen to them. Older people stop taking those risks because death is more real to them.

If you really want to stop the glorification of that, you really have to instill in people a deep sense of their own mortality.

Fenris
Nov 19th 2007, 08:19 PM
Video games! Make sure they don't make any violent ones! :lol:

OK, in all seriousness I feel that western society today is much less violent than it was in the past, and I attribute the change in attitude to Christianity. That doesn't mean that we might have some time periods when violence is on the uptick, but on the whole we are much more civilized than we used to be.

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 09:25 PM
In my opinion people who are deeply conscious of their own mortality are less likely to glorify violence and death (compare the soldier with many years on the battlefield to the new recruit).

The glorification of violence and death goes hand in hand with a basic implicit belief that "I" am never going to die. I mean this in the sense that younger people take risks because they basically don't believe anything is going to happen to them. Older people stop taking those risks because death is more real to them.

If you really want to stop the glorification of that, you really have to instill in people a deep sense of their own mortality.

What you've posted also answered another question that in the past I hadn't thought about. The curriculum for children of the Eastern Orthodox Church includes a psychological chart for growth. When going over it once, I noticed for 3 and 4 yr olds it stated this is the age they become aware of death at. And I wondered how they came to this conclusion.

One day, during the course of everyday life, when my 3 yr old grandson was visiting, he took a rock and killed a lizard with it (of course he had no idea what he was doing). I recall he was perplexed why the lizard didn't get up and run away afterward. And I remember trying to explain to him the reason.

Can a deep sense of mortality be instilled, or would it be more likely degrees depending on the individual and circumstances.
For instance, it would seem likely that those who live where much violence and death occur would be well aware of their mortality. Yet the glory of death seems greater than the preservation of life.

Teke
Nov 19th 2007, 09:29 PM
Video games! Make sure they don't make any violent ones! :lol:

OK, in all seriousness I feel that western society today is much less violent than it was in the past, and I attribute the change in attitude to Christianity. That doesn't mean that we might have some time periods when violence is on the uptick, but on the whole we are much more civilized than we used to be.

What TV can do before they are even old enough for video games is just as bad.:P

Then you think the more civilized the less violent. If by civilized you mean respective of others, I can see how that would help. :)

AlainaJ
Nov 19th 2007, 09:56 PM
If you really want to stop the glorification of that, you really have to instill in people a deep sense of their own mortality.[/quote]
Powerful statement:)

Fenris
Nov 19th 2007, 09:58 PM
There are violent cultures on this earth that embrace death.

punk
Nov 19th 2007, 10:32 PM
What you've posted also answered another question that in the past I hadn't thought about. The curriculum for children of the Eastern Orthodox Church includes a psychological chart for growth. When going over it once, I noticed for 3 and 4 yr olds it stated this is the age they become aware of death at. And I wondered how they came to this conclusion.

One day, during the course of everyday life, when my 3 yr old grandson was visiting, he took a rock and killed a lizard with it (of course he had no idea what he was doing). I recall he was perplexed why the lizard didn't get up and run away afterward. And I remember trying to explain to him the reason.

Can a deep sense of mortality be instilled, or would it be more likely degrees depending on the individual and circumstances.
For instance, it would seem likely that those who live where much violence and death occur would be well aware of their mortality. Yet the glory of death seems greater than the preservation of life.

I think there are different levels of awareness of death.

First there is the level of realizing that other things die (so you kill the lizard and it doesn't come back).

Second there is a sort of factual awareness that you yourself are going to die (but the genuine reality of death hasn't quite hit home)

Third there is the awareness of the fact that you yourself are going to die (with the full existential import of that being realized).

Most people at two will still be glorifying violence, it is getting to 3 that puts violence in a different light.

Unfortunately a lot of this really amounts to life experience, so it isn't exactly something you are going to teach.

punk
Nov 19th 2007, 10:33 PM
There are violent cultures on this earth that embrace death.

Well there is something healthy about being able to embrace death as just part of life and mitigating the fear of it to some extent.

Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 03:24 PM
Well there is something healthy about being able to embrace death as just part of life and mitigating the fear of it to some extent.

Like Christian martyrs as role models.

Fenris
Nov 20th 2007, 08:28 PM
Well there is something healthy about being able to embrace death as just part of life and mitigating the fear of it to some extent.
Right, no argument. But these people look forward to death, provided they can kill some of the enemy with them.

punk
Nov 20th 2007, 08:35 PM
Right, no argument. But these people look forward to death, provided they can kill some of the enemy with them.

Well any good soldier is prepared to die, and an effective tactic is an effective tactic...

Besides, I have a certain admiration for the kamikaze, so why not for the people you are referring to?

punk
Nov 20th 2007, 08:37 PM
Like Christian martyrs as role models.

Unfortunately martyrdom doesn't exactly go well with the blessings from God most contemporary churches promise believers.

If you want your church to grow, saying things like: "Join us and our God will make your life a lot worse!" doesn't help.

:lol:

Fenris
Nov 20th 2007, 08:39 PM
Besides, I have a certain admiration for the kamikaze, so why not for the people you are referring to?

Kamikazes attacked hard targets- warships.

Suicide bombers go for soft targets- unarmed civilians.

To me it looks like a major difference.

punk
Nov 20th 2007, 08:41 PM
Kamikazes attacked hard targets- warships.

Suicide bombers go for soft targets- unarmed civilians.

To me it looks like a major difference.

It seems to me that since the US and UK conducted mass bombing raids against cities in Germany and Japan, civilians have been perfectly good targets.

Fenris
Nov 20th 2007, 08:46 PM
It seems to me that since the US and UK conducted mass bombing raids against cities in Germany and Japan, civilians have been perfectly good targets.
The world has changed. Armies generally try to limit civilian casualties now. Think about what the world's reaction would be if Israel bombed Gaza into oblivion.

threebigrocks
Nov 20th 2007, 09:36 PM
Guys, I know this is contro - but let's keep it to flesh wounds and not lethal blows.

Fenris
Nov 20th 2007, 09:43 PM
Guys, I know this is contro - but let's keep it to flesh wounds and not lethal blows.I know you're the mod, but I draw the line at antisemtism.

threebigrocks
Nov 20th 2007, 09:54 PM
So which was a better violence - 9/11 or Pearl Harbor? Oklahoma City or Hiroshima?

There is no better or glorious violence. In all of those situations above innocent people died. It's easy to say that because it's a military presence it's better, or because it's civillian it's worse.

Thing is, violence has been a part of this world since Cain and Abel. No chance of stopping it now. We won't be able to get it out of our tv's, out of our radio's, out of movies, video games, newspapers, video games, or anything else including the minds of people. We are not promised that this world will get any better - we are on a downslide, have been for 6,000 years as a worldly society.

There will always be those who love evil, embrace wickedness and walk the way of the heathen. There is that potential in all of us weather we like to admit it or not. Strong or not. Whether we are Christian or not.

That is why we live by faith for what is to come. It's not here yet. We can't expect anything less than worldly actions by this world. We can hope for something better. To die is gain. Is that violent?

Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 10:03 PM
Unfortunately martyrdom doesn't exactly go well with the blessings from God most contemporary churches promise believers.

If you want your church to grow, saying things like: "Join us and our God will make your life a lot worse!" doesn't help.

:lol:

But, the truth will set you free.......:spin:

Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 10:17 PM
I know you're the mod, but I draw the line at antisemtism.

Your Orthodox brethren do not agree with you.


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/2006July18.cfm

Orthodox Jews Demand End to Zionist Atrocities in the Middle East

July 18 New York

-- the ideology of Zionism and ensuing establishment of the Zionist state conflicts with the basic teachings of Judaism.

Zionism is the transformation from Judaism, a G-dliness and spirituality, into a G-dlessness, materialism with nationalistic aspirations. Theodor Herzl and his cohorts, the fathers of this relatively new ideology of Zionism (approximately 100 years), have taken the Almighty out of the equation.

The ultimate establishment of the Zionist State, the fulfilment of the Zionist ideology, takes this blasphemy a step further. The Jewish people were sent into exile by Divine decree. They where then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. They were expressly forbidden to create their own state, such as the Zionist state of "Israel". (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).

The Jewish people are forbidden to oppress another people. The creation of the State of "Israel" came about through, the theft from, subjugation and oppression of, the Palestinian people.

Torah Jewry, therefore, condemns the horrifying suffering inflicted upon both the Palestinian and Lebanese people. Because of all of the above, all attempts to achieve peace and stability for "Israel" are destined to fail. The Creator cannot be defied with impunity.

The Rabbis stated, that the State of "Israel" will result in unending pain, suffering and bloodshed. May the Almighty protect His creations.

The State of "Israel" does not speak in the name of Jews, they have stolen the name "Israel" from the Jewish people. Jews are commanded to be loyal citizens in every country in which they reside.

Zionism and the State of "Israel", is the main cause of the exacerbation of anti Semitism universally.

The government of the illegitimate State of "Israel", continually attempts to uproot the Torah and its statutes. They persistently oppress the Torah true Jews who reside in its borders.

We pray that all misery in the Holy Land and Lebanon, shall come to an end and that Zionism, the root of the suffering, continue to fade from Jewish consciousness, to be replaced by the faith of Torah. We shall all witness soon the peaceful dismantlement of the Zionist State "Israel". May we merit seeing the day when all humanity will serve the Almighty in harmony and peace. Amen

Fenris
Nov 20th 2007, 10:24 PM
Your Orthodox brethren do not agree with you.


Neturi Karta speak for Jews in the same manner that snake handlers speak for Christians. Both are tiny sects of no importance who can't justify their position from any religious texts.

You know, if my co-religionists were being bigoted in a public forum I would certainly speak out against them. I don't know why such speech is tolerated here, but it goes along way to confirm what many Jews believe about Christians.

Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 10:49 PM
Neturi Karta speak for Jews in the same manner that snake handlers speak for Christians. Both are tiny sects of no importance who can't justify their position from any religious texts.

You know, if my co-religionists were being bigoted in a public forum I would certainly speak out against them. I don't know why such speech is tolerated here, but it goes along way to confirm what many Jews believe about Christians.



Those "tiny sects of no importance" may be more important than you think.
They, Orthodox Jews, are all around the world. (Hhmm, like us Eastern Orthodox Christians who are a tiny sect in comparison with other Christian religions, yet we have maintained the Christian faith from the beginning.)

I don't see how you can say they do not justify their position from any religious text, when they use the Torah to state their case.
Does this mean you disagree with their interpretation of the law/Torah?

What is it many Jews believe about Christians? Or should you even speak for all Jews.

punk
Nov 20th 2007, 11:06 PM
But, the truth will set you free.......:spin:

Despite protestations to the contrary, I suspect most people (and most Christians) aren't interested in truth so much as having more than the Joneses