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View Full Version : Jeremiah 31:15 =?= Matthew 2:16



Lighthope
Nov 20th 2007, 05:07 AM
Consider the following event at Matthew 2:16:


Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

Matthew says that event was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:15.


Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not. - Matthew 2:17-18

However, a reading of Jeremiah 31, including the quoted prophecy at verse 15, shows that Jeremiah 31:15 was not about the future deaths of children surrounding the birth of Jesus, but about the enforced exportation of Israelites in general during the raids of King Nebuchadnezzar, set about by God due to Israel's sin.

Question: On what basis does Matthew claim the Herod murders to be a fulfilment of the Jeremiah prophecy?

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - "An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a bench passes like a minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove passes line an hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

Kahtar
Nov 20th 2007, 05:15 AM
Question: On what basis does Matthew claim the Herod murders to be a fulfilment of the Jeremiah prophecy?How about on the basis of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
Is God not able to use one thing to speak of another?

Lighthope
Nov 20th 2007, 05:53 AM
How about on the basis of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?
Is God not able to use one thing to speak of another?

True, but too easy. Anyone can make that claim and say anything in the Bible means something else "because the Holy Spirit told me."

God is not the author of confusion.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - A feature is a bug with seniority.

SemperReformanda
Nov 20th 2007, 05:57 AM
You should read up on typology. I don't have time to post more now, but therein lies your answer.

OldChurchGuy
Nov 20th 2007, 11:40 AM
Consider the following event at Matthew 2:16:



Matthew says that event was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:15.

- Matthew 2:17-18

However, a reading of Jeremiah 31, including the quoted prophecy at verse 15, shows that Jeremiah 31:15 was not about the future deaths of children surrounding the birth of Jesus, but about the enforced exportation of Israelites in general during the raids of King Nebuchadnezzar, set about by God due to Israel's sin.

Question: On what basis does Matthew claim the Herod murders to be a fulfilment of the Jeremiah prophecy?

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - "An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a bench passes like a minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove passes line an hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

One can argue the author of Matthew was grabbing all verses he could find to link Jesus as the true Messiah with Hebrew Bible (aka Old Testament) prophecy and teaching.

One can also argue that the verses in Jeremiah have a "dual" meaning that was brought to the author's attention by the Holy Spirit while writing the book we call the Gospel of Matthew.

Since we do not have the original manuscript nor do we have any other writings by the author of Matthew to help clarify, we cannot know for sure what the author was thinking.

I am not sure either interpretation can be declared as incorrect.

My two cents worth,

OldChurchGuy

Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 03:08 PM
Consider the following event at Matthew 2:16:



Matthew says that event was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:15.

- Matthew 2:17-18

However, a reading of Jeremiah 31, including the quoted prophecy at verse 15, shows that Jeremiah 31:15 was not about the future deaths of children surrounding the birth of Jesus, but about the enforced exportation of Israelites in general during the raids of King Nebuchadnezzar, set about by God due to Israel's sin.

Question: On what basis does Matthew claim the Herod murders to be a fulfilment of the Jeremiah prophecy?

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - "An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a bench passes like a minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove passes line an hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein

As another poster posted, it is a typology.

Matt. 2:15 "Out of Egypt I called My Son" refers to Israel in Hos. 11:1 (see Ex. 4:22, Num. 23:21,22,; 24:5-8). In the OT the son of God is Israel. Here Jesus is the true Israel. He reenacts in His own life the history of Israel, without falling into sin.

Matt. 2:16- The cruelty of Herod was prefigured at Moses birth, when Pharoah attempted to kill "all the male children" in order to destroy the first Israel (Ex. 1:16,22).

Jeremiah recorded the people of Jerusalem being led away to exile (Jer. 31:15). On their sad pilgrimage to an alien land, they passed "Ramah" (v 18), where "Rachel", wife of Jacob, lay buried (1 Sam. 10:2). In his prophecy Jeremiah pictures Rachel, who had long been dead, "weeping" even in her tomb for the fate that befallen the people, "her children". Now the mothers of Bethlehem weep for the slaughter of their children, the Holy Innocents, who are regarded as saints and martyrs for Christ. As Rachel was told her children would return from exile in Babylon (Jer. 31:16,17), so Jesus will return from His exile in Egypt.

Lighthope
Nov 20th 2007, 10:11 PM
In the OT the son of God is Israel. Here Jesus is the true Israel. He reenacts in His own life the history of Israel, without falling into sin.

That is certainly true. However, the problem lies in the fact that Matthew quotes Jeremiah as a fulfilled prophecy. ("Thus was fulfilled...") The reason he did this is so one could point to the event, then point to the prophecy, and see the fulfilment, thus providing credibility that Jesus is who he says he is. Yet nowhere does the Jeremiah scripture ever even allude itself to being anything other than a prophecy about the enslavement by Nebuchadnezzar.

There is a gap of information.

Someone, somewhere, must have identified the Jeremiah verse as a Messianic prophecy. My question is, how did that come about?

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - If you can smile when things go wrong, you probably have someone in mind to blame.

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Teke
Nov 20th 2007, 10:37 PM
That is certainly true. However, the problem lies in the fact that Matthew quotes Jeremiah as a fulfilled prophecy. ("Thus was fulfilled...") The reason he did this is so one could point to the event, then point to the prophecy, and see the fulfilment, thus providing credibility that Jesus is who he says he is. Yet nowhere does the Jeremiah scripture ever even allude itself to being anything other than a prophecy about the enslavement by Nebuchadnezzar.

There is a gap of information.

Someone, somewhere, must have identified the Jeremiah verse as a Messianic prophecy. My question is, how did that come about?


The meaning of the word "Babylon" can be taken into account as well (in a spiritual sense). Meaning the children wouldn't come out of "confusion" until Jesus Christ.
Where the people physically are, is less important. They understood the reason for the enslavement and accepted it. ;)
Nomadic tribes are like that.