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Brother Mark
Nov 21st 2007, 09:14 PM
There seems to be a lot of people willing to speak about others sin. This would be a very long post if I named off all the verses that concern this habit. Instead, I thought I would quote a few and then see where it goes.

1 Peter 2:1-3

2 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
NASU

The KJV translate "evil speakings" where the NASB translates it as "slander".

One of my favorite verses concerning judging is in Matt about the speck and log. Until we truly have the log out of our eye concerning that brother/sister, we should refrain from "helping".
Another interesting passage is that love covers a multitude of sin. Is it OK to go around and name the sins of others? Oh, if God calls something a sin, then by all means let us call it that too! We definitely need to call a spade a spade.

I suppose where we can get down to the nitty gritty... if a preacher's lifestyle doesn't set well with us, do we have a right to say anything at all about that life style? Now, if scripture speaks against that life style, can we then say something about? Yes. But I see a lot of gray areas concerning the issue of lifestyle that others do not.

Anyway, one last verse to think on...

James 3:10-12
10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.
NKJV

When we speak ill of another brother, we are cursing them. When we speak well of them, we are blessing them. Let us not curse and bless because from the abundance of the heart do these things come.

When another's sin is pointed out, we should know that except for the grace of God, there go I.

ikester7579
Nov 22nd 2007, 12:22 PM
Some people like how the act of doing this makes them feel not so bad about their own sin. They do not like the idea that someone maybe more like Christ, closer to Christ, or more mature in Christ than they are. They even get offended at anyone that can do more than they can in Christ's name. So they tare them down to keep them on a level playing field instead of praying that they go even further in their faith.

They cannot reach the goal that they want, so they blame those around them for it. And become bitter about their faith and teach others to do the same thing.

In spiritual warfare, these actions open the door for Satan to work in a Christian's life. It also invites several spirits of oppression to work with their attitude of destruction of others. It also opens their life to be subject to reaping what they have sown unto others. And God will not allow a Christian to grow in the body of Christ when their intent is the destruction, and tare down of the others within it.

So they complain and refuse to see the error of their own ways. And they are quick to point fingers at others but are quick to hide if someone points out things about their lifestyle, and their secret sins. They use their own personal justification for sins they like to commit, but are quick to judge another for their sins and claim there is no justification for them.

They walk around with information memorized in their heads about others in the body of Christ whom they disapprove of. And they can re site this information like a computer and twist it as they add their own opinions for more effect. They do not care that their attempts to tare down others also make some fall away. Only that their message is loud and clear. They must be heard, in their minds. And their destruction of others is justified by saying that their sins are worse than anything they ever did.

They will even go as far as to say or imply that others in the body of Christ work for Satan. And claim that any gift they have is demonic, even though they refuse to see that any demonic gift can never produce fruit of the kingdom. For can Satan work against Satan and his kingdom still stand?

mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

mk 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

lk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

And what did Christ say about judging a ministry and those who run it?

mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The standard in which we are judging others, are we also willing to apply this to our own lives?

Where we seem to draw the line about what we think a ministry to do, may not be the same place where God draws the line. Why? We are not perfect, so God has to leave leeway. And if our leeway does not match God's leeway, then we are destroying what God is trying to use.

Example: If God is using a ministry to bring thousands to the kingdom. And His leeway allows it. But we have a more strict leeway, and speak bad things in an attempt to tare it down. Who are we working against when God's leeway allows it?

This is why God says: mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

A ministry not approved by God, through His leeway for us because of our imperfection, cannot produce "any" fruit of the kingdom. And ministries that cannot produce fruit because God does not approve (because they go beyond His leeway), will try and counterfeit the fruit of the kingdom by making themselves as gods. This is when a ministry turns into a cult, and basically does the work of Satan.

So if you judge by the fruit a ministry produces, then you are in-line with God's leeway because the fruit of the kingdom is God's approval. And if you allow your own thoughts of right and wrong to do the judging, then you replace God as the righteous judge, and work against God. For when we get to heaven, will there be a judgement throne for you? I think not. So why are we judging people as if we are the righteous judge, when God never gave us that authority?

Now some may ask: Why does God allow what I deem as deception in a ministry? Because faith, the confession of it, and grace is all that is needed for salvation.

Why do you think the thousand year reign Christ will rule with a rod? The rod is the correction of what we thought was truth, but is not. And it will take a thousand years to straighten us out. So the correction for truth of where a ministry errs, and people err concerning truth about the word of God, will be corrected by Christ in the thousand year reign. Not by us, because we are not supposed to take that task. For did Christ give us the rod of correction of others in the body of Christ? Nope.

When we become shepherds, we tend our sheep. The sheep is our congregation, and our correction is upon them and no other. Taring down other shepherds is also taring down what God has allowed to be an authoritative figure. To what verse do we say that God has given us such power to work against what He has appointed?

Well they preach against some things I believe: So what. Can you be 100% sure that what you believe is correct? And can you name any other person, besides Christ, that can preach a perfect sermon every time?

Example: What if God judged all preachers by your standards? And then judged you with those same standards. Would you fare any better? Your hope is that God will have mercy upon you on judgement day, but are not willing to extend that same mercy to others who can err just as you do. So what is it that makes us want to judge another by a standard we refuse to place upon ourselves?

Are we really that much better than the ones we condemn and tare down?

ikester7579
Nov 24th 2007, 10:13 AM
I wonder why this thread is dead? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 03:27 PM
I don't know. Perhaps my initial post was too long.

Lyndie
Nov 24th 2007, 08:45 PM
I agree with both of you. I think you may have given people much to think about.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 24th 2007, 11:24 PM
I don't know. Perhaps my initial post was too long.

LOL. I highly doubt that. I think it's the salt that you brought. Thank you for it though. Salt may sting, but it also brings healing.

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 01:13 AM
I suppose if one thinks that another 1000 years is going to be given to "straighten us out" that they might not see the reason to point to those who are trying to lead them astray. However if that 1000 yr period of time is NOW, then straighten we must!

Brother Mark
Nov 25th 2007, 01:43 AM
I suppose if one thinks that another 1000 years is going to be given to "straighten us out" that they might not see the reason to point to those who are trying to lead them astray. However if that 1000 yr period of time is NOW, then straighten we must!

Oh, we are not called to straighten them out! Now, if we are in relationship with someone, and are more spiritual, and see them overcome in a fault, then in humility, we try and restore them. In private first as scripture commands.

God will clean up his church.

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 01:44 AM
Oh, we are not called to straighten them out! Now, if we are in relationship with someone, and are more spiritual, and see them overcome in a fault, then in humility, we try and restore them. In private first as scripture commands.

God will clean up his church.Have you noticed how He intends to do that? See the church at Thyatira.

Brother Mark
Nov 25th 2007, 01:50 AM
Have you noticed how He intends to do that? See the church at Thyatira.

The way he always has done it.

ikester7579
Nov 25th 2007, 10:31 AM
I suppose if one thinks that another 1000 years is going to be given to "straighten us out" that they might not see the reason to point to those who are trying to lead them astray. However if that 1000 yr period of time is NOW, then straighten we must!

And if God is trying to show them the error of their ways, and has granted them time in which to see it. And we tare them down while God works with them. Then their sin becomes our sin because we won't grant them time, and help out God's work with prayer.

For what will we say when the behind the curtain works of what God was trying to do in this person's life is revealed, then we find that we totally messed that up? What will we say?

Is it a sin to pray for those who err?

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 03:09 PM
And if God is trying to show them the error of their ways, and has granted them time in which to see it. And we tare them down while God works with them. Then their sin becomes our sin because we won't grant them time, and help out God's work with prayer.

For what will we say when the behind the curtain works of what God was trying to do in this person's life is revealed, then we find that we totally messed that up? What will we say?

Is it a sin to pray for those who err?It was Jezebel who was given space to repent which she did not. So who was supposed to tell her children about her errors to warn them? John was given this task. And in fact the judgment given against her & her children, would be a warning to all the churches as it was the thing by which they would know the Lord had done it. So I see that we also ought to warn those caught up in such things and pray for judgment upon those who try to seduce others to evil. The goal being to help them overcome evil with good.

Lyndie
Nov 25th 2007, 07:30 PM
How about praying for mercy for them, forgiving them, and that God will lead them to the truth? I see lots of pointing out sin, but it is being done without love. If not for God's mercy, I know I would have gone to you know where a long time ago. Seems many on this board have forgotten where they came from.

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 10:02 PM
How about praying for mercy for them, forgiving them, and that God will lead them to the truth? I see lots of pointing out sin, but it is being done without love. If not for God's mercy, I know I would have gone to you know where a long time ago. Seems many on this board have forgotten where they came from.

Amen to that. Some people like to believe that they are somehow smarter or more discerning than their neighbor because they believe they are saved. My friends,if you are truly saved, it is because the Holy Spirit opened your eyes to the truth and drew you to him. It had nothing to do with your intelligence or discernment. Just thank God he chose to open your eyes and save you. You had nothing to do with it. We humans are all alike..far away from God and choosing to sin. We only come because HE DRAWS US. So

ikester7579
Nov 26th 2007, 12:33 PM
It was Jezebel who was given space to repent which she did not. So who was supposed to tell her children about her errors to warn them? John was given this task. And in fact the judgment given against her & her children, would be a warning to all the churches as it was the thing by which they would know the Lord had done it. So I see that we also ought to warn those caught up in such things and pray for judgment upon those who try to seduce others to evil. The goal being to help them overcome evil with good.

Can you explain how the so called evil ministries can produce the fruit of the kingdom?

Also why was Jezebel given space to repent? Was not this an example of how God works?

Also, pray for judgement upon those who seduce others to evil?

I believe in no-osas. I'm not sure what you believe, and this is an example not a debate. But what if I deem all osas people as evil who seduce others to evil and apply what you just said to that? Would that seem fair as I pray that judgement come upon about 60% of this forum because "I" deem osas as evil and "refuse" to pray for them to find truth?

And what if God starts to bring this judgement and many people suffer? What did I accomplish? Nothing, right?

But, both sides whether right or wrong do bring people to salvation, correct? So they both produce fruit of the kingdom, correct? So even if I disagree with osas, I'm not going to pray for judgement to come upon them because I can see God is allowing souls to be saved through it.

So what does that say? That the osas and no-osas is not a big enough deal that God would pull his blessing away from either of them.

So the word of faith believes something weird about the baptisms. God is allowing souls to be saved through those ministries. So the baptism misconception is not big deal to God, or He would have pulled His blessings away from them

So if I pray, as you suggest, and my prayer is out of order to God's will because I'm to high and mighty to see it. Then I can actually bring myself to be under the rath of God for allowing myself to do an action that is not fitting of a Christian to do.

It's like the issue about whether women should preach. If God is not in it because of disaproval, then how would they produce the fruit of the kingdom, without God?

Name one verse in God's word that says that Satan can:

1) Bless someone.
2) Bring someone to salvation.
3) Do the will of God.
4) Cause people to be healed.
etc...

Because if Satan cannot do it, then who do you think is? God cannot work through evil.

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 03:15 PM
Ikester,
(Jer 4:1-4 KJV) If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. {2} And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. {3} For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. {4} Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

This is Jeremiah's warning to Judah before the Babylon Capitivity. It contains their hope for the arrival of Messiah and instructs them on how the remnant are to wait for Him during their captivity. But as we go on, we see that those who persist in their idolatry will have a judgment to face. And he tells them why.

(Jer 5:25-29 KJV) Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you. {26} For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. {27} As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. {28} They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. {29} Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?

(Jer 5:30-31 KJV) A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; {31} The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jeremiah has more to say about these men he says are wicked, but this verse is interesting:

(Jer 9:2-3 KJV) Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men. {3} And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

The Spirit of the Lord that was upon Jeremiah to warn the people in his day, is the same Spirit the Lord sent at Pentecost - and it is given for the same reasons.

(John 16:7-15 KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. {8} And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: {9} Of sin, because they believe not on me; {10} Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; {11} Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. {12} I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. {13} Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. {14} He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. {15} All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

Some of the things that Jesus had not yet told them about in detail, He later told to the Apostles. Those things that were yet to come upon that generation are found in the book of Revelation - which reads like much of the OT prophets who wrote about the Babylon Captivity.

So what is my point? That Israel who claimed to know the Holy One of Israel allowed herself to be led astray to worship idols, thereby forsaking the Lord. And even though she was cured of her idolatry in the BC, there were many who rejected the Lord when He arrived - for many of the same reasons that the BC judgment was brought upon them. Mainly their refusal to love the word of God and be instructed by it. They had corrupted themselves with covetous practices - which was what had led them into idolatry back then. And in rejecting the Lord who came to save them, they also refused to give up the system that had made them fat and it became idolatrous to them. Israel today is looking to worship in a temple made with hands and plans to reinstitute animal sacrifice which God says are an abomination to Him now. (Isa 66:3)

Christendom today is full of these men who draw disciples after themselves because of their covetous hearts. Many Christians refuse to judge them or hold fast to the righteousness of God revealed in His word which is our standard, because they have no love for the truth either. We are not valiant for the truth, but have compromised with the deceivers because we see some "good" in it. And it has brought confusion into the Body as a result. We have been told to expect tares in the world, but we are not supposed to tolerate them in the churches. Lest our houses become like those of the harlot too:

(Jer 5:7 KJV) How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.

Semi-tortured
Nov 26th 2007, 03:49 PM
I wonder why this thread is dead? :hmm:


Same reason I am quickly growing tired of this board. Because people think excellent topic doesn't apply to them. It only applies to those who are "wrong." This board should be a blessing for Christians, but I've noticed it falls into a lot of the same judging and arguments that non-christians point to as a reason they can't stand Christians. I'm not talking about someone telling someone else they shouldn't smoke crack or something. I'm talking about people's superiority complex and lack of humility.

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 03:59 PM
Same reason I am quickly growing tired of this board. Because people think excellent topic doesn't apply to them. It only applies to those who are "wrong." This board should be a blessing for Christians, but I've noticed it falls into a lot of the same judging and arguments that non-christians point to as a reason they can't stand Christians. I'm not talking about someone telling someone else they shouldn't smoke crack or something. I'm talking about people's superiority complex and lack of humility.Or perhaps your perception is wrong about what a blessing is?

(Luke 13:23-30 KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, {24} Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. {25} When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: {26} Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. {27} But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. {28} There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. {29} And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. {30} And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

(Mat 7:13-14 KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {14} Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:04 PM
Or perhaps your perception is wrong about what a blessing is?

Oh, I think he makes an excellent point about blessings! ;)

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:06 PM
Same reason I am quickly growing tired of this board. Because people think excellent topic doesn't apply to them. It only applies to those who are "wrong." This board should be a blessing for Christians, but I've noticed it falls into a lot of the same judging and arguments that non-christians point to as a reason they can't stand Christians. I'm not talking about someone telling someone else they shouldn't smoke crack or something. I'm talking about people's superiority complex and lack of humility.

Keep in mind that as the kingdom of God grows into a full tree, that the birds of the air will roost in it's branches. There will also come a day, when people will see the kingdom and want to know more. In the mean time, we just keep on keeping on! Let us determine in our hearts to encourage those that need to be encouraged!

Thanks for the input.

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 04:20 PM
Oh, I think he makes an excellent point about blessings! ;)Do you mean those blessings that come about because one has proper discernment?

Semi-tortured
Nov 26th 2007, 04:28 PM
Or perhaps your perception is wrong about what a blessing is?

(Luke 13:23-30 KJV) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, {24} Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. {25} When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: {26} Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. {27} But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. {28} There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. {29} And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. {30} And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

(Mat 7:13-14 KJV) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: {14} Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Yeah, I didn't see this coming. :rolleyes:

This is what I'm talking about. I feel I'm a good soldier. I try to talk to people about Christ when I can. I win the battle against sin more often than not. I lose at times, but I repent and pick myself back up and strive for perfection. I tell people how they should improve their lives if it's an obvious flaw. I don't walk around with an attitude of superiority over anyone even if it's obvious I'm a better person. Jesus washed others feet and broke bread with sinners and humbled himself. I guarantee there are a lot of people on this board who would never think about hanging out with a bunch of rotten people in order to witness to them. There are many on this board who may not "sin" as much as others, but their lack of humility is their sin. One sin puts a person in the same boat as Hitler in terms of damnation. One sin! If that person never sinned again, but walked around with their chin in the air thinking they are better than the sinners, they are sinning in their lack of humility. You are getting into heaven cause God had mercy, not because of how much or how little you sinned in this life. I'm not talking grace by faith alone. I too believe you need to show your faith through works. But even if you sinned one time your entire life and nevr sinned again, you are never any better than Hitler or Osama Bin Laden because you deserve hell as much as them.

You quote verses about how a lot of people who think they are going to heaven will end up in hell, insinuating that there are many on this board (can't tell if you were insinuating me or not, so I'll go under the assumption you are not) that fall into this category. Telling someone they are doing something wrong is one thing and it must be done in private and a tactful manner. I have never seen anyone come to Christ through a Christian bashing their head against the wall and calling them a sinner. Non-believers need help, not more guilt and pain.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:30 PM
Do you mean those blessings that come about because one has proper discernment?

When one sees more sin than good in the bride of Christ, discernment is not proper. The speck is never the focus when correcting a brother or sister. The eye is what cannot be seen because of the log. But once the log is removed, the eye can clearly be seen so as to not damage it while removing the speck. So blessing can come from proper discernment as specks are removed. Proper discernment also encourages the eye, that the speck will not be there forever!

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 05:18 PM
Semi-tortured, #22 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1451375&postcount=22)
Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and then told them to do the same. Walking in this world can soil us, even though we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ from our past sins. The washing of the water of the word is what will keep us clean and keep us in His forgiveness and covered by His blood. Its not an attitude of superiority but an adherence to exhort one another daily so that we do not fall back into unbelief:

(Heb 3:13-19 KJV) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; {15} While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. {16} For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. {17} But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? {18} And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? {19} So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Sin deceives us and hardens our heart if we do not repent. There still remains a rest for us to enter into - we are not home yet! We must continue to walk in His mercy & forgiveness if we are to be found abiding in Christ when He returns.

Semi-tortured
Nov 26th 2007, 05:40 PM
Semi-tortured, #22 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1451375&postcount=22)
Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and then told them to do the same. Walking in this world can soil us, even though we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ from our past sins. The washing of the water of the word is what will keep us clean. Its not an attitude of superiority but an adherence to exhort one another daily so that we do not fall back into unbelief:

(Heb 3:13-19 KJV) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; {15} While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. {16} For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. {17} But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? {18} And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? {19} So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Sin deceives us and hardens our heart if we do not repent. There still remains a rest for us to enter into - we are not home yet! We must continue to walk in His mercy & forgiveness if we are to be found abiding in Christ when He returns.

I get that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the attitude of superiority on this site. It is here. It's not a simple exhorting going on with a lot of occasions. I've only been here for a short while, and when I came here I was in need of some help. I needed comfort because I got smacked down by God because my walk wasn't what it should have been. I needed help to understand what happened. The site provided that. But as I looked further into the site, I started to see people with this superiority complex where if a brother or sister said they were having problems, there were those who jumped on them and instead of asking how they could help the person understand, they told them they may have never been Christians to begin with and they are probably not saved. If a person asks if what they are doing is a sin, some people here jump on them and say since they don't know, they can't possibly have the Holy Spirit in them, therefore they are not saved. Some of the sins in question were not even sins for goodness sake.

There are times when there are gray areas in my life where I don't know if it's a sin or not. Just because I can't recognize it, doesn't mean I'm not saved. The verses you quoted are to exhort each other as sort of reminders so you don't slowly fall into unbelief. It's not talking about beating someone over the head and telling them they are not saved. I agree with Mark in that people naturally feel inadequate at times. If they can bang on someone and tell them they need to fix this because they are going to hell, it makes them feel better about themselves. When you are exhorting someone, as you do it, are you getting a charge out of it that makes you feel good about yourself? Or is your exhorting done in a way where you feel some worry about the other person and a genuine altruistic desire to better the other person's life?

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 07:39 PM
Semi-tortured,
I hadn't seen any of your posts other than in this thread, which is sort of an on-going theme from a couple of others. One of which concerned false teachers and how to deal with them. We all have lots of opinions about things, but the point of Bible Chat is to chew on what the word of God says. I'm sorry if I have personally offended you, that was not my intent. But the current topic is speaking the truth about sin, which seems to be a subject not many are willing to do in a forth-speaking biblical manner. The word of God doesn't do the dance we seem to want to do when it comes to calling it what it is. Our encouragement to one another is to help them repent, which means they have to agree with God about what sin is and where it leads and then point them to where their remedy is found. You can't start with the escape unless you understand the dilemma you are in!

(1 Cor 10:11-13 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them (OT saints) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {12} Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. {13} There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 08:32 PM
But the current topic is speaking the truth about sin, which seems to be a subject not many are willing to do in a forth-speaking biblical manner.

Actually, this isn't what the thread is about. It's not about speaking the truth about sin. It's about how do we deal with sin in another's life. We can all speak about adultery, murder, misplaced anger, lust, etc and agree. But when it comes to dealing with those things in the heart and life of another, well scriptural principles such as overlooking a transgression (sin) in the life of another comes to mind. Those are the kind of verses that many are unwilling to walk in.

Semi-tortured
Nov 26th 2007, 09:22 PM
Semi-tortured,
I hadn't seen any of your posts other than in this thread, which is sort of an on-going theme from a couple of others. One of which concerned false teachers and how to deal with them. We all have lots of opinions about things, but the point of Bible Chat is to chew on what the word of God says. I'm sorry if I have personally offended you, that was not my intent. But the current topic is speaking the truth about sin, which seems to be a subject not many are willing to do in a forth-speaking biblical manner. The word of God doesn't do the dance we seem to want to do when it comes to calling it what it is. Our encouragement to one another is to help them repent, which means they have to agree with God about what sin is and where it leads and then point them to where their remedy is found. You can't start with the escape unless you understand the dilemma you are in!

(1 Cor 10:11-13 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them (OT saints) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {12} Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. {13} There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I don't think that's what the thread is about. Mark clears that up in the post above this one. It's about the fact that many on this board like to condemn people with a high and mighty attitude. I have no problem discussing what is sin and what isn't. It's people that lack humility in judging others I have a problem with.

Kingsdaughter
Nov 26th 2007, 09:33 PM
This is such an awesome thread, because I just listened to a sermon on Sunday about humility. I think our motive definitely comes into play when we speak God's word to another brother or sister. Why are we doing it? Is it for selfish ambitions to prove ourselves to be "super-christians" Is it to condenm? Or is it out of love, for that person. Sometimes I have been corrected by my brothers and sisters,and although it was painful:D in regards to my pride, I knew it was out of love because I'm still a babe in Christ, and they are helping me to grow in my walk with the Lord and I thank God for them.

Semi-tortured
Nov 26th 2007, 10:45 PM
This is such an awesome thread, because I just listened to a sermon on Sunday about humility. I think our motive definitely comes into play when we speak God's word to another brother or sister. Why are we doing it? Is it for selfish ambitions to prove ourselves to be "super-christians" Is it to condenm? Or is it out of love, for that person. Sometimes I have been corrected by my brothers and sisters,and although it was painful:D in regards to my pride, I knew it was out of love because I'm still a babe in Christ, and they are helping me to grow in my walk with the Lord and I thank God for them.

That's what I'm talking about. What is the motivation to correct? None of us feel completely comfortable with ourselves. It's why people like to gossip because if they can find faults and flaws in others, it makes them feel better. I often see Christians talking down to others in a way that you know they are pumping their pride and ego up. They don't care about the other person as much as they want people to see that they are good and should be looked up to. I will tell people when they should stop doing something that is hurtful, but I always try to bring myself down to their level with a similar stummble I had. I am a recovering porn addict. When I hear someone say porn is in their lives I come strong on them, but I tell them right off the bat that I myself am a recovering addict so they not only know I'm not talking down to them, but they know I speak from a position of experience as it pertains to its damage on their minds and souls. I also take joy in using a painful and evil thing in my life for good.

ikester7579
Nov 27th 2007, 12:23 PM
Same reason I am quickly growing tired of this board. Because people think excellent topic doesn't apply to them. It only applies to those who are "wrong." This board should be a blessing for Christians, but I've noticed it falls into a lot of the same judging and arguments that non-christians point to as a reason they can't stand Christians. I'm not talking about someone telling someone else they shouldn't smoke crack or something. I'm talking about people's superiority complex and lack of humility.

:agree: I would have to agree. It seems we have forgotten how to be humble.

ikester7579
Nov 27th 2007, 12:35 PM
I have one question I keep asking members here, and it never gets answered. What is wrong with praying for those tv preachers that err, instead of praying that God's wrath of judgement comes upon them?

Do we think we are so much better and more righteous than they are?

All I see is an Holier than thou attitude. And people using God's word to justify their unwillingness to do what is right, by ignoring everthing else in God's word that contradicts the tare down of others. Is God's word one sided? Does God's word tell us to be one sided?

Maybe God did not create us all equal since some do not deserve to be prayed for, but instead torn to shreds on a daily bases.

Is it our intent to send these people to hell? Or is it our intent to step in and do the work of God because we figure God won't do it Himself?

Semi-tortured
Nov 27th 2007, 05:51 PM
I have one question I keep asking members here, and it never gets answered. What is wrong with praying for those tv preachers that err, instead of praying that God's wrath of judgement comes upon them?

Do we think we are so much better and more righteous than they are?

All I see is an Holier than thou attitude. And people using God's word to justify their unwillingness to do what is right, by ignoring everthing else in God's word that contradicts the tare down of others. Is God's word one sided? Does God's word tell us to be one sided?

Maybe God did not create us all equal since some do not deserve to be prayed for, but instead torn to shreds on a daily bases.

Is it our intent to send these people to hell? Or is it our intent to step in and do the work of God because we figure God won't do it Himself?

It's an ego thing at times I think. Some people don't want to see others succeed. When a major preacher stumbles, it makes them feel like they are better than them. It becomes a, "Look at him. All these people think he is so great and he did _____. I have never done _____ so how much better does that make me!"

I think we should pray for those preachers when they stummble because if nothing else, you are praying for those who follow them. If a teacher has wandered off the path, guess who else is in danger of wandering after him? As Stephen was being stoned he was asking God to forgive the people stoning him of their sin. He wasn't calling down judgement on them. He wasn't praying that God's wrath would come down and burn them up.

Everyone I have met who has a holier than thou attitude about life always seems to have something dark in their closet. What some people don't realize is one sin puts you in the same boat as Hitler as it pertains to damnation. It is only because God has given grace to those who believe that you are saved. You did NOTHING to earn it so why do people talk down to those who live in sin? If they are living in sin they are already at a low point. Pick up your brother. Don't try to tear him down further.

The above attitude will be viewed by some of the holier than thou types as tolerance of sin or acceptance of sin. Truth is it's nothing of the sort. It's merely a heartfelt sympathy for those struggling with sin rather than a vindictive, ego-driven condemnation.

dhtraveler
Nov 28th 2007, 03:33 PM
Speaking from experience in sin, I know that sin is destroying the church. I am not saying It will be destroyed but I am saying that I do strongly believe that we are in "The falling away" time within the church. People of the world have become cruel in abundance. It has filtered into the church. I see it mostly online in chat rooms and message board which I have been apart. The church, imho, has lost its first love and we are heading to judgment. Recently I was banned from a "C"hristian chat room for saying that the church needs to repent of its hypocrisies, lies and deceit, and turn back to God.

Will we listen, is my sorrowful question.

dht

ikester7579
Nov 29th 2007, 04:07 AM
I went to my brother's church tonight, and was talking to the preachers wife. They have a Christian book store they run and she was telling me about this. What she said was must appalling. She said that people come in there all the time throwing around the term: "I'm a Christian." But, she said those same people will ask for you to do something out of the ordinary, and when you can't do it. They will cuss at you. Or question if you are a Christian or not. She said that she has even had bibles thrown at her:o.

And she said that they have problems with things walking out the door, so they put up cameras. She has been cussed out for that too.

I think the world is getting full of people who talk the talk, but won't walk the walk.

Talk the talk=I'm a Christian.

Won't walk the walk=Cuss, throw bibles, ask for free stuff and discounts for no reason, question your faith because you won't do what they want etc...

ikester7579
Nov 29th 2007, 04:30 AM
Semi-tortured,
I hadn't seen any of your posts other than in this thread, which is sort of an on-going theme from a couple of others. One of which concerned false teachers and how to deal with them. We all have lots of opinions about things, but the point of Bible Chat is to chew on what the word of God says. I'm sorry if I have personally offended you, that was not my intent. But the current topic is speaking the truth about sin, which seems to be a subject not many are willing to do in a forth-speaking biblical manner. The word of God doesn't do the dance we seem to want to do when it comes to calling it what it is. Our encouragement to one another is to help them repent, which means they have to agree with God about what sin is and where it leads and then point them to where their remedy is found. You can't start with the escape unless you understand the dilemma you are in!

(1 Cor 10:11-13 KJV) Now all these things happened unto them (OT saints) for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. {12} Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. {13} There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

OK, let's apply the theme you have been preaching here so far:

1) What are all the things you disagree with that other people believe, and you don't?
2) You would consider all this stuff evil, correct?
3) So start threads about these things and treat these beliefs like you would if these same people were tv preachers.
4) Condemn them and tell other people to pray that God would tare them down and bring His judgement.

If you cannot treat every sin the same, then you are condemning people by your standards and not the standards of God.

Example: If you disagree with me on no-osas, then you should start a thread asking for others in osas to pray that God bring judgement upon me, and others who believe as I do here.

And of you cannot, then I ask: What does what I do, that you disagree with, make it any less of a sin than what the tv preachers do (in your eyes)?

God is no respecter of persons, which means He treats us all the same. He is just more long suffering with some more than others. But when judgement comes, who will get special treatment? No body. And how many unforgiven sins will send a person to hell? One. And it does not matter how bad the sin is either. One unforgiven sin sends you to hell.

So if you are going to judge the tv preachers, by asking God to bring judgement upon them. Then God should bring judgement upon us all for sin as well.

For what makes their sin a more damnable sin, when any sin can send someone to hell?

Mograce2U
Nov 29th 2007, 05:28 AM
ikester,

For what makes their sin a more damnable sin, when any sin can send someone to hell?That they are taking others with them who are trusting them with their lives.

ikester7579
Nov 29th 2007, 07:55 AM
ikester,
That they are taking others with them who are trusting them with their lives.

And what better way to save them then to have their leader find truth? For if you are going to tare down the ministry by trying to bring God's judgement, and then if you don't have the ability to comfort the ones who fall out of it. And tell them truth, then what you do does more harm then allowing them to stay and their leader changes.

For what plan do you have to take care of those who fall from a torn down ministry? Nothing? Then if they shall fall away, then who will God hold responsible for praying this, and then not having a plan, and a way to take care of what happens when a ministry falls. Actions have consequences, and God will hold you to the ones you pray to happen unto others.

If a sheep leaves the herd, does the shepherd allow it to leave and be killed? Or does the shepherd leave the herd to save the one? So which is more important in the eyes of God? The many, or the one?

Christ is the shepherd of us all, correct? So even people like Joyce Myers is considered a sheep. So if she strays, does the shepherd leave the rest of the flock to save her. Or does He allow her to stray and be damned for hell?

Example: Let's say God brings judgement to Myer's ministry. 10 of thousands of people are now without a church home. God has done what you asked of Him. So now what are you going to do about the results of what you asked?

1) Will you do what it takes to help them, which could include giving up all that you own to do it?
2) Or will you say: see, God brought judgement upon her, and her ministry fell? So it was of the devil, and I'm glad. Those people need to help themselves, because I don't have time.

Besides, if you believe osas. Then what could Joyce ever do to make someone fall from salvation, when you can't lose it?

One more thing:

That they are taking others with them who are trusting them with their lives.

Where are they going?

Semi-tortured
Nov 29th 2007, 03:39 PM
ikester,
That they are taking others with them who are trusting them with their lives.

So instead of praying for them to see the way and bring the people following them back into the light, we preach judgement which could put all those people following them in disarray? If judgement is needed God will dish it out. But He is the judge on those things, not us. Who are we to say that God should do this and that in judgement? There's probably been times in all our lives where others were calling for God's judgement on us. Aren't you glad He didn't lay the smack down everytime?

One sin damns to hell. Whether it be lying to your wife that her butt doesn't look big in that dress, or flying a plane into the World Trade Center. If the guy who planned the WTC boming truly repents right before he dies, he goes to heaven while the guy who's only sin in his entire life was telling his wife her butt looks fine in that dress goes to hell.

It's one thing to tell a person they shouldn't be doing something if it's wrong and you can legitmately, scripturally back it up. It's another to say they are wrong and they aren't saved, or to pray to God that He chucks a lightning bolt at them. (When I said you in the above paragraph I wasn't refering to you specifically Mograce2u, I was speaking of the general "you" as it pertains to the Christian population)

Amazedgrace21
Nov 29th 2007, 04:31 PM
And what better way to save them then to have their leader find truth? For if you are going to tare down the ministry by trying to bring God's judgement, and then if you don't have the ability to comfort the ones who fall out of it. And tell them truth, then what you do does more harm then allowing them to stay and their leader changes.

IMHO, this is overlooking the imperative of who is the focal point of the order of the two commandments..To love God first and abide by his commandments translates into getting the truth straight and keeping it straight about God's character and position of authority..the very thing that comes under scrutiny as a concern when it comes to an "errant leader"..they are under a higher levelof accountibility and are to be held to it so long as they are ina leadership position because the" servant is not greater than the master" and in the cases of specific folks..not everyone and not most cases but the ones caught "dead to right's" masquerading as shepherds or sheep whenin fact they are conducting themselves as wolves....this is not a hypothetical problem so it requires something more substantial in terms of a real response to it."per God"..


It requires exposure..and it requires imposing the consequences of the "sin"..even if one agree's that is to be left in God's hands it is simply naive and just not appropriate to ignore God uses others in this capacity..Paul , John the Baptist, Issaiah. Jeremiah..were called to confront and rebuke these folks "publically" and in very stern, hard, clear and direct words regarding their conduct it was being called into accountibility..Christ did himself..and this was not "sinful"


Furthermore to do so is a requirement of the second commandment of love for others..its loving them enough to confront them with their sin....to protect them from wolves..


Not all folks who present themselves as Shepherds and sheep are..there are "wolves"..

The logic being employed here is simply not applicable ..by transposing or reverse the order of two commandments..we are not to love others "first", then to love God most , next or to indulge the "others" sin as being "loving" at all..simply not "do-able"..


Sure we can pray for them..but love must act and not simply react..

I work with folks with drug addiciton, resort to theft and prostiution to manage their habit..they are under bondage to a source of sin..

they are responsible for their sins but the bondage often is manifested by direct warfare by the the source of these sins..the drug pushers/dealers and pimps..so I must approach this no differently than I would a flagrantly bad teacher/Pastor or ministry completely corrupted with gross and decepetive representations of God and their handling of His word..the problem requires "action"

As in the case of your own situation with porn addiction..it has to be "cut off"..you have to be removed from it and it has to be removed from you..the world and Satan provides the sources that pressure you into more temptations by sheer force of increasing the sources for you to fail..the very nature of the beast..the tactics wolves employ..bondage, slavery, oppression, deceit, seduction..so we would not ignore this industry and let bygones be bygones..any more than we allow pedophiles to harm children to be "tolerant and loving" whenit comes to theinfluence they weild upon their victims...their "prey"


More often than not the reasons why these folks come into bondage do not have their roots in the minisry..and these ministries act as bariers for them to be forced, convicted" into the needed knowledge that the cold hard truth reveals about this..

God says action is the response.."go, hasten, plead"..and if there are consequences that are painful, that does not mean the pain is harmful..withdrawal symptoms are tough, thats why folks have such a hard time with breaking lose from the bondage of sin..but the priority is not to the drug or the Drug pusher..same goes with the bad teachers and their bad teachings..its to the ones they 'prey upon"..remove the source of food and they starve..remove the source of the drug and the addiction starves..and remove the drug and both addicts and drug pushers are out of business. Same with sin..and it is this responsibility by God put upon us to respond with when we come upon these situations..we must come along side of the truth first and then the truth dictates the remedy..but it has to be put into action in order to reach the ones who need it.






For what plan do you have to take care of those who fall from a torn down ministry? Nothing? Then if they shall fall away, then who will God hold responsible for praying this, and then not having a plan, and a way to take care of what happens when a ministry falls. Actions have consequences, and God will hold you to the ones you pray to happen unto others.

The plan is "life giving reproof"..the fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom..wisdom to recognize,the pathway to accountibility to answer for the wrong choices and respond to the right ones..this is not abuut the ones who will fall away..it's about the ones who are being "kidnapped", are under bondage of sin and taking the keys away from the ones who keep them there.Filling them with the stuff that heals and saves them, not destroys them while they starve and die from suicide or murder as a result of the "drug of sin" that is destroying them..

If a sheep leaves the herd, does the shepherd allow it to leave and be killed? Or does the shepherd leave the herd to save the one? So which is more important in the eyes of God? The many, or the one?

This is assuming the Shephered is a true Shepherd..Pimps shephered their herd's of prostitues, they profit at their poverty and bondage and they use them to cause poverty and bondage to others..same with Drug Pushers..Christ removed the Pimps and pushers..to protect the flock..Christ is the only true Shepherd becasue sin is so deceitful..the most important thing to Christ are all the lambs..He layed down his life for all of his sheep and lambs who know His voice..those who do not follow his words and voice are not his lambs..those who do not teach His words or teach other ones are not :"ambs/sheeps" at all..but the wolves in sheeps clothing..

Christ is the shepherd of us all, correct? So even people like Joyce Myers is considered a sheep. So if she strays, does the shepherd leave the rest of the flock to save her. Or does He allow her to stray and be damned for hell?

Joyce Meyer is one who calls herself a Shepherd of God's sheep..and in this capacity she is called into accountibility as well as simply the one of claimingto be a sheep..she is not deceived to what her straying is, any more than a murderer is deceived..they "know" what is right and what is wrong..she is not making bad "mistakes" out of ignorance.shes making choices ..huge distinction..that is not straying..Judas did not "stray" out of ignorance..or a moment of weakness..she knows what her options are and she knows the consequences are..as either Shepherd or sheep..what she is not doing is teaching others what their choices are and allowing them to make them..she is stealing them from them and telling them that this is "good"..and that her choices are "good" when they are ndirect contradiction to Gods truthof what "good is"..


Example: Let's say God brings judgement to Myer's ministry. 10 of thousands of people are now without a church home. God has done what you asked of Him. So now what are you going to do about the results of what you asked?

Better to be a lamb free from the bondage of a "church home" that turns lambs into prostitutes and drug addicts to be part of the family and male the pimps and drug lords prosper..the world does not need a Church home, they need Christ and the Word of God ..
God has asked all of us to comeout of the world and to Him..and those are the results I would like to see..and only will come if these maters are indeed responded to..God provides for us what He asks of us..

1) Will you do what it takes to help them, which could include giving up all that you own to do it?
2) Or will you say: see, God brought judgement upon her, and her ministry fell? So it was of the devil, and I'm glad. Those people need to help themselves, because I don't have time.

To do what it takes to help them begins with getting them to see they are addicted and under the bondage of sin and a false Godpel..the truth is what ses these folks free and it's about what they have to gove up..it's getting them to give this up..and part of this is to take out the source of bondage.one has to be dense not to recognize they will experience withdrawal symptoms, or will hate how it feels to see themselves in the light of the truth of God..but this is what "cures" and heals..its needed.

God is sufficient to find and receive anyone any here and anytime, under any circumstances but that also involves "action" in respect to getting His word to them..not pouring more poisen down their throats and exploiting them..one could also argue those ten thousand souls were never going to turn to God but in seperating Joyce from her bondage, her addcition, she alone may be the one God is in pursuit of to use her for another 100,000 souls who might..Stephan laid down his life for Paul..and Christ laid down his life for Stephan..not all will accept this "call", but all will hear it..and God is using "Us" to make sure they do..so that is our primary obligation..by loving God first, we are able to "love others next"..to take on their contempt and anger at us for stepping in on their behalf and delivering the message..we don't make them chose ..we simply are used to be sure they are given it.

Wolves.don't deliver the message, they are in the business of making sure it never gets heard or the truth is never exposed so they are commited to protecting thelie and those who follow the lie..these are not Gods "sheep" at all..


Besides, if you believe osas. Then what could Joyce ever do to make someone fall from salvation, when you can't lose it?

The point here is not if they have received salvation..but if they have been deceived they have it and don't..

One more thing:

Quote:
That they are taking others with them who are trusting them with their lives.
Where are they going? They are not going anywhere thats the point..they are under the bondage of the lie they are safe because they are on the Titanic..and why they need to be set free to see they are in need of getting off and embarking upon the Ark..only Christ can provide that passage but it requires delivering the message to the ones on the Titanic..the fatal consequences of remaining on that ship that sailed back in the beginning with Adam and Eve..:hug:

dhtraveler
Nov 29th 2007, 04:42 PM
amazing..

your words above have touched me in a deep deep wound. Id love to discuss privately and seek your counsel on this. I do not know how to contact you. Maybe you can give a moderator your email address and it can be passed on to me?

dht

ikester7579
Nov 29th 2007, 05:24 PM
Amazedgrace, do you have absolute truth in order to judge someone else in this manner? You would have to have God knowledge in order to judge others in this fashion. You would also have to be all knowing, and be able to look into the hearts of men. Can you?

And if you cannot, then you also cannot judge other people like God either. The God position is taken. It is not your's, and it is not mine.

God see's what we cannot. God knows what we do not. We judge by only by what we can see. God judges by what is in the heart, something you cannot see. So His judgement, and His actions are always right on target. And because He can see what we cannot, is it not better to have faith that He does what He is supposed to?

This is why God's word says: By their fruit ye shall know them.

Fruit is the sign of God's approval, and also His longsuffering. If God is showing His fruit in a ministry that is gone astray, it means that He is suffering it because He is trying to work a greater good from it. But how can He do this when our prayers are against it?

dhtraveler
Nov 29th 2007, 05:30 PM
Amazedgrace, do you have absolute truth in order to judge someone else in this manner? You would have to have God knowledge in order to judge others in this fashion. You would also have to be all knowing, and be able to look into the hearts of men. Can you?

And if you cannot, then you also cannot judge other people like God either. The God position is taken. It is not your's, and it is not mine.

Wow :o

I did not get that impression from his post!!!:(

dht

Amazedgrace21
Nov 29th 2007, 06:35 PM
Amazedgrace, do you have absolute truth in order to judge someone else in this manner? You would have to have God knowledge in order to judge others in this fashion. You would also have to be all knowing, and be able to look into the hearts of men. Can you?

And if you cannot, then you also cannot judge other people like God either. The God position is taken. It is not your's, and it is not mine.

God see's what we cannot. God know what we do not. We judge by only by what we can see. God judges by what is in the heart, something you cannot see. So His judgement, and His actions are always right on target. And because He can see what we cannot, is it not better to have faith that He does what He is supposed to?

This is why God's word says: By their fruit ye shall know them.

Fruit is the sign of God's approval, and also His longsuffering. If God is showing His fruit in a ministry that is gone astray, it means that He is suffering it because He is trying to work a greater good from it. But how can He do this when our prayers are against it?

Well brother actually I do have the inspired word of God as to how "HE proceeds to judge" such matters..I am simply in agreement with Him, thats all..not all fruit is good, some fruit is forbidden..I refer you back to Adam and Eve and their fruit issues..:)

Perhaps you have the sin confused with the sinner when it comes to "having the nerve and audacity" to make a call about sin..I do dare to judge..and not out of arrogance but a sincere concern and passion for those who are oppressed and suffering from the bondage of sin..and in response of obedience to Gods directive to "do so"..in matters such as these.

I do not "have to" nor am obliged to like "Satan or his tactics"..I am obliged to to respond to them

Testing the fruit is about a form of judgement..it requries discernment of what is "good fruit of God" and "poisenfruit of Satan"..one is not required to take a sip out of bottle of poison , labled "POISON" to be "loving"..one is required to provide the medication when there is an illness or disease..sometimes even a surgical proceedure is needed..

and to know this is the situation, to have that medication or life saving skills ( God given gifts..mind you) and then not use them sure "ain't loving"!!!

Furthermore not all folks , believers are given the same portion or type of gifts to reposnd to such matters..perhaps yours is the gift of mercy and its your job to "pray" while other like myself may have marching orders to respond to this differently..

You , as my brother,are employing your skills of discernment and making judgements towards my position..testing my fruit so to speak so obviously this is not wrong, "correct?" :hug: Should any less be required of me, your sister, to approach my concerns with anothers "fruit"? I do not presume you are usurping Gods role or position to do so..and am fully aware it is scripturally required of you to do so..

Nor have I demonized anyone..we are speaking to sin, to correction, to rebuking and all for the purposes of restoration when it comes to fellow believers as it applies to ministering to unbelievers by presenting them with the light" of the truth of Christs words, its a rescue mission of love as I perceive it..not a witch hunt, as you appear to be "qualifying/characterizing it"..:)

YSIC,
Grace

*******************

Hi dhtraveler
I am a she, my name is Sue..and perhaps the best suggestion I can offer is that you got to the counseling section of the board and perhaps bring what is burdening you there for others to try to help..

if its personal or sensitive in nature, perhaps to ask for a private area to begin allowing others who are very gifted and want to be able to help give you the best path to do so..and if I can be any help, I am gladly available to do this..

You should be able to got to the Chat with Mod link, where your request will be private and you can discuss anything there as well..newbies have to wait a bit for some privaleges..but I am sure the Mods will do anything they can to help..:hug:

Brother Mark
Nov 29th 2007, 07:11 PM
Example: Let's say God brings judgement to Myer's ministry. 10 of thousands of people are now without a church home. God has done what you asked of Him. So now what are you going to do about the results of what you asked?

Hi Amazed. It's hard for me to tell what you were saying in your whole post as I could not tell what were your words and what were the words of another.

But just in case one minor point...

JM ministry is not a church and from what I know, she has never claimed it to be a church.

Mograce2U
Nov 29th 2007, 07:34 PM
But just in case one minor point...

JM ministry is not a church and from what I know, she has never claimed it to be a church.And it is a good point too! Makes me wonder why people even send her money. As a not-for-profit "ministry" to whom Christians are asked to support, we ought to be concerned about their stewardship before making an investment - since they are spending our money for us. I have made some small investments and I always check for how much "overhead" they have. And the fact that some like Ken Copeland are dependent on volunteers - whom they do not pay; while they pay themselves exorbitant amounts - is shameful too. It is the worker who is worthy of his hire - not the thief!

The embarrassment that is coming upon these guys in the current investigation, shames everyone who "names the Name". If those who have the light of Christ will not expose them (judging our own as we are instructed), I guess we can expect that the worldlings walking in the kingdom of darkness will...

Amazedgrace21
Nov 29th 2007, 07:43 PM
Hi Amazed. It's hard for me to tell what you were saying in your whole post as I could not tell what were your words and what were the words of another.

But just in case one minor point...

JM ministry is not a church and from what I know, she has never claimed it to be a church.

Good point, I agree..:ppjust not my quote but Brother ikester7579's

Sorry for adding to the confusion here..my responses are in "blue print" to post #38 so feel free to hold me accountable for them, I am grateful for that:hug:

Brother Mark
Nov 29th 2007, 07:46 PM
And it is a good point too! Makes me wonder why people even send her money. As a not-for-profit "ministry" to whom Christians are asked to support, we ought to be concerned about their stewardship before making an investment - since they are spending our money for us. I have made some small investments and I always check for how much "overhead" they have. And the fact that some like Ken Copeland are dependent on volunteers - whom they do not pay; while they pay themselves exorbitant amounts - is shameful too. It is the worker who is worthy of his hire - not the thief!

The embarrassment that is coming upon these guys in the current investigation, shames everyone who "names the Name". If those who have the light of Christ will not expose them (judging our own as we are instructed), I guess we can expect that the worldlings walking in the kingdom of darkness will...

Nah. God gives to evil and to the good. So should we. He doesn't check to see if we will spend it right. He just gives it and then says "be careful you don't fall short of the grace given to you". (I know that verse is written to believers. But the point is the same.) Are there consequences? You bet there are.

But back to the thread, until you have all the facts, you are not in a position to judge. It's that simple.

dhtraveler
Nov 29th 2007, 09:04 PM
Hi dhtraveler
I am a she, my name is Sue..and perhaps the best suggestion I can offer is that you got to the counseling section of the board and perhaps bring what is burdening you there for others to try to help..

if its personal or sensitive in nature, perhaps to ask for a private area to begin allowing others who are very gifted and want to be able to help give you the best path to do so..and if I can be any help, I am gladly available to do this..

You should be able to got to the Chat with Mod link, where your request will be private and you can discuss anything there as well..newbies have to wait a bit for some privaleges..but I am sure the Mods will do anything they can to help.

I read your heart in your post and thats why I considered you. You seem to understand and have just the gift I need used to help me deal with a certain issue. I do not give just anyone the right to speak into my life.

I take these things very seriously and I will not display my issues before any group of ops/mods/admins. I know human nature to well and i trusts human nature as far as i can spit.

i shall wait until you can pm me, or I you, or until God directs me to someone else.

thank you
dht








.:hug: http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1455278)

Amazedgrace21
Nov 29th 2007, 10:18 PM
Hi dhtraveler,

Once again I respect your reasons to wait and I am more than willing to help in any way I can..so when you wish and are able to pm, and still feel led to, I will gladly respond.

My prayers are with you that you receive the peace of Christ as you work through these matters in the mean time.:hug:

YSIC,
Grace