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DIZZY
Nov 23rd 2007, 10:10 AM
Hi guys,

John is told to measure the temple in Revelation so if he is measuring the temple does that not mean there is a temple built in Jerusalem and the Lord will reign from the seat of David.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God,the altar, and those who worship there. 2But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So if this temple does not exist then the two witnesses don't exist and they won't be there witnessing for one thousand two hundred and sixty days before the Lord returns.

The Lord comes back with His armies in Revelation 19:14-16 these armies are not earthly armies they are heavenly. These armies are the saints who have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

The Lord reigns from Jerusalem it is written there in black and white, we can not say He will not reign from Jerusalem. It is written in so many places in the bible that the Lord will return to Jerusalem and reign from there, God says it is His holy word and faithful and true,

Zechariah 14:8
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

Amos 9:11-15
11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,

“ When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Zechariah 8:23
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Micah 4:1
1Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
4 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

Acts 15:13-18
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Joel 2:26,27
26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
And My people shall never be put to shame.
27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the LORD your God
And there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame.

How many verse do we need to show us that the Lord will reign from Jerusalem for 1000yrs, it is a physical reign, then after the thousand years He hands the kingdom over to His Father.

Firstfruits
Nov 23rd 2007, 11:36 AM
Would you agree that from the following scriptures that The Jerusalem that Jesus reigns from is the New Jerusalem?

Zech 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 7:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Do we believe Gods promise?

Merton
Nov 23rd 2007, 12:09 PM
Hi guys,

John is told to measure the temple in Revelation so if he is measuring the temple does that not mean there is a temple built in Jerusalem and the Lord will reign from the seat of David.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God,the altar, and those who worship there. 2But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

So if this temple does not exist then the two witnesses don't exist and they won't be there witnessing for one thousand two hundred and sixty days before the Lord returns.

How many illustrations from the OT temple and services etc. can you spot being used in the book of Revelation to show us the truth symbolically?

Do you really think that all of the Christians whose lives measure up to the standard of the rod of the angel, will fit in a stone temple in Jerusalem??

To be outside of the Holy Place at that time (as worshippers of God) is to be trampled under foot as worthless salt, and it will not be only in Jerusalem either according to the 5th and 6th trumpet of Rev.9.




The Lord comes back with His armies in Revelation 19:14-16 these armies are not earthly armies they are heavenly. These armies are the saints who have been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

The Lord reigns from Jerusalem it is written there in black and white, we can not say He will not reign from Jerusalem. It is written in so many places in the bible that the Lord will return to Jerusalem and reign from there, so are we to ignore what is written when God says it is His holy word and faithful and true, to ignore the truth is to turn your back on the truth of God's word.

We must be discerning as to which Jerusalem Christ will reign from, but yes His reign starts from there in the middle east.

God has already set His King upon His Throne in His Holy Hill and according to Psalm 2 it has been accomplished before the nations decide to rebel against it.--

Rev 3:21 The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me in My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father in His throne.
Psa 2:4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall mock at them.
Psa 2:5 Then He will speak to them in His anger, and He will terrify them in His wrath;
Psa 2:6 Yea, I have set My king on My holy mount on Zion.

Zechariah 14:8

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

This Jerusalem is the Holy Mountain of God, the New Jerusalem from above which comes down --

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, coming forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street and of the river, from here and from there, was a tree of life producing twelve fruits: according to one month each yielding its fruit. And the leaves of the tree were for healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And every curse will no longer be. And the throne of God and the Lamb will be in it; and His slaves will serve Him.
Rev 22:4 And they will see His face; (only in the New Jerusalem)
and His name will be on their foreheads.


Amos 9:11-15

11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
13 “ Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,

God had restored the Tabernacle of David when He provided His Presence to dwell among His people and they meet Him in it as David did today, BEFORE Solomons Temple as the House of the Lord was established which DOES speak of the completed House of the Lord at the resurrection of all saints.


“ When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,

And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

This speaks of the children of the Bride of Christ who is the Heavenly Zion at the end of this age called to inhabit the millennium mortaly Rev.7 Is 49.



Zechariah 8:23
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

The true Jew is the sanctified Christian, whether Jew or Gentile of the flesh.


Micah 4:

1Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
4 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

The rulership of the resurrected saints will not be restricted to the area of old Jerusalem--

Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will deal with all those who afflict you. And I will save her who is lame, and gather her who was thrust out. And I will give them for a praise and for a name in all the land of their shame.
Zep 3:20 In that time I will bring you, even in the time I gather you. For I will give you for a name and for a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, says Jehovah.


.


Joel 2:26,27

26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
And My people shall never be put to shame.
27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the LORD your God
And there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame.

Gods people are all believers in Christ regardless of race. 1 Peter ch 2.


How many verse do we need to show us that the Lord will reign from
Jerusalem for 1000yrs, it is a physical reign, then after the thousand years He hands the kingdom over to His Father.

If you mean by hands on by resurrected people then I would agree but men are presently killing one another thinking that they can inherit Gods promises by it, and by this they will inherit exactly nothing from God except their own banishment --

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood shall be shed by man. For He made man in the image of God.
Rev 13:10 If anyone gathers captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone will kill by a sword, by a sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all the ones having been slain on the earth.

Merton.

vinsight4u8
Nov 23rd 2007, 01:56 PM
Measuring is done when one is to be built again.

The pattens for the holy things are given first.

Such as the holy things that Moses made and David.

Ezekiel wrote as to seeing one with a reed measuring for a pattern of a new temple. He was to show the house to the house of Israel.
let them measure the pattern

Ezekiel 40 and 43:10

DIZZY
Nov 24th 2007, 12:07 PM
Would you agree that from the following scriptures that The Jerusalem that Jesus reigns from is the New Jerusalem?

Zech 14:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Rev 7:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven And a new earth: for the first heaven And the first earth were passed away; And there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Do we believe Gods promise?

Yes I believe God's promise. it helps if we put the verses where they belong the first two verses are talking about and earthly Jerusalem where e sets up the earthly temple and the latter verses are talking about the New Jeruslem when the new heavens and the new earth have been created and yes He reigns from both.

Firstfruits
Nov 24th 2007, 01:24 PM
Yes I believe God's promise. it helps if we put the verses where they belong the first two verses are talking about and earthly Jerusalem where e sets up the earthly temple and the latter verses are talking about the New Jeruslem when the new heavens and the new earth have been created and yes He reigns from both.

Are there two rivers of life?

Are there two thrones of God?

Why would we reign from two Jerusalems, since it will only be those that belong to God that dwell there?

quiet dove
Nov 24th 2007, 08:23 PM
Are there two rivers of life?

Are there two thrones of God?

Why would we reign from two Jerusalems, since it will only be those that belong to God that dwell there?

I don't think it is both at the same time but one before the other. At least that is how I understand it.

DIZZY
Nov 25th 2007, 04:24 AM
Measuring is done when one is to be built again.

The pattens for the holy things are given first.

Such as the holy things that Moses made and David.

Ezekiel wrote as to seeing one with a reed measuring for a pattern of a new temple. He was to show the house to the house of Israel.
let them measure the pattern

Ezekiel 40 and 43:10

Hi vinsight4u8,
Measurement was also used for judgment and owner ship. God measures out judgment and He also has Jerusalem measured out showing that He owns the area and He is leaving the outer court to the Gentiles.

markedward
Nov 25th 2007, 05:01 AM
The Bible does not say Jesus will reign for one thousand years. The Bible says the saints who take part in the resurrection will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Jesus, on the other hand, has an eternal reign.

The Bible also never says Jesus will set up a third temple. Jesus prophecied the destruction of the second temple, being the temple that was standing in His day (the temple He was standing outside of when He made the prophecy), but nothing mentions Him building a third temple, since He is the "third" temple.

Responses to the quotes from the OP (in order):

The passage from Revelation that is quoted says nothing in regards to Jesus' reign, and it says nothing in regards to the thousand years.

The passage from Zechariah is taken out of context. Zechariah 14 says nothing of a limited rule. In fact, it says that after the day of the LORD the survivors of the enemies of Jerusalem will come back each year to pay homage to God. The one-thousand-year rule of Jesus that is being proposed is suspecting that each and every enemy of God is destroyed from the earth, but such an idea contradicts what Zechariah says, if Zechariah 14 can be applied to the "day of the Lord" that we see near the end of the Revelation book.

If the prophecy of Amos is referring to a rebuilding of a temple as a result of Jesus, remember how Jesus said "Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days"? Jesus was referring to Himself as the temple. Jesus became our "third" temple. As a result, Amos, considering he was a prophet before the time of the exile to Babylon, either spoke of the future destruction and rebuilding of Solomon's Temple, the first temple, or else his words could be seen as prophecies of Jesus' words that He is the temple.

The small verse taken from Zechariah 8 has nothing directly to do with a thousand-year reign of Christ. So people grab a Jew by the arm and say "God is with you"? Read Judges, where the Angel of the LORD tells Gideon that God is with him. He wasn't speaking of God physically being with Gideon, but rather that God was with him, for him, allied to him, so that Gideon and the Israelites would have God with them when they fought the Midianites.

Micah speaks of "the latter days." Other OT prophets speak of "the last days" or "the latter days." In Acts 2, when Peter speaks to the people, defending the Holy Spirit that had just been poured upon Jesus' disciples, Peter outright quotes the prophet Joel, saying "In the last days God will pour out His Spirit on all people." Peter was declaring that those days, the days that the disciples of Jesus received the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, were the last days does that mean the Revelation began in the days of the disciples? I'm one who believes so.

Acts 15, which quotes the above passage from Amos, can definitely be seen as referring to Jesus being the "fallen tent" or "ruins" that was to be rebuilt, in that by rebuilding "it" the Gentiles would come to seek God, which pretty much only really happened after Jesus' ministry. It has nothing directly to do with a thousand year reign.

The passage from Joel that was quoted says nothing directly about the thousand year reign, but interestingly it immediately precedes the section that Peter quoted in Acts 2, the passage that Peter said had come to pass in his day.

Most of the verses quoted in the OP have almost nothing to say about a thousand year reign, and none of them mention a physical rule of Christ. Some (but not all) mention God ruling as King, but none of them say anything about God physically being with the people.

DIZZY
Nov 25th 2007, 07:19 AM
Are there two rivers of life?

Are there two thrones of God?

Why would we reign from two Jerusalems, since it will only be those that belong to God that dwell there?

Technically Jesus Christ is the living waters so where He is the river will flow, whether here on earth or in heaven, so to answer your question in regards to the river of life. There is only one river of life and that is Christ and whoever drinks from Him shall have eternal life.

Jeremiah 17:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=17&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water.

Zechariah 14:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

John 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

Revelation 7:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=7&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 21:6
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

While Christ reigns from the earth His throne is there, the throne shows that He is King, He has all authority in heaven and on earth. Spiritually speaking whereever Christ is reigning from yes His throne is there.

The Bible says He will reign over His people in Jerusalem in the millennial reign, which means He is King over the earth. Therefore if He is King does that not mean He would have a throne to rule from.

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Isaiah 9:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=9&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 16:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=16&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it— one from the house of David— one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We are told when Christ renews the earth He will sit on His glorious throne and rule over Israel and the nations.

Luke 1:31-33
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

The Lord because He is the Son of Man will also rule over the earthly kingdom for it was promised to Him before He was born. Christ will reign from Jerusalem from David's throne.

Then when all is destroyed and there is a new heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem the Lord God and the Lamb will dwell with us and there will be no night. The Lord God shall be our light and the Lamb shall be a lamp to us.

Revelation 21:22-25
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.


Why would we reign from two Jerusalems, since it will only be those that belong to God that dwell there?


I believe we will be reigning with Christ from Jerusalem in the Millennial reign (1000yr). I have not found scripture as yet that says we will reign from the new Jerusalem, most of the scripture I have looked at speaks of us reigning from earth which I believe is in the Millennial reign.

So in answer to your question. No we only reign from the earthly Jerusalem during the Millennial reign. We do not reign from the heavenly Jerusalem, we will be serving the Lord God and the Lamb.

Firstfruits
Nov 25th 2007, 11:19 AM
Technically Jesus Christ is the living waters so where He is the river will flow, whether here on earth or in heaven, so to answer your question in regards to the river of life. There is only one river of life and that is Christ and whoever drinks from Him shall have eternal life.

Jeremiah 17:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=17&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water.

Zechariah 14:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

John 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

Revelation 7:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=7&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Revelation 21:6
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

While Christ reigns from the earth His throne is there, the throne shows that He is King, He has all authority in heaven and on earth. Spiritually speaking whereever Christ is reigning from yes His throne is there.

The Bible says He will reign over His people in Jerusalem in the millennial reign, which means He is King over the earth. Therefore if He is King does that not mean He would have a throne to rule from.

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Isaiah 9:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=9&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 16:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=16&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it— one from the house of David— one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We are told when Christ renews the earth He will sit on His glorious throne and rule over Israel and the nations.

Luke 1:31-33
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

The Lord because He is the Son of Man will also rule over the earthly kingdom for it was promised to Him before He was born. Christ will reign from Jerusalem from David's throne.

Then when all is destroyed and there is a new heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem the Lord God and the Lamb will dwell with us and there will be no night. The Lord God shall be our light and the Lamb shall be a lamp to us.

Revelation 21:22-25
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.



I believe we will be reigning with Christ from Jerusalem in the Millennial reign (1000yr). I have not found scripture as yet that says we will reign from the new Jerusalem, most of the scripture I have looked at speaks of us reigning from earth which I believe is in the Millennial reign.

So in answer to your question. No we only reign from the earthly Jerusalem during the Millennial reign. We do not reign from the heavenly Jerusalem, we will be serving the Lord God and the Lamb.

From the following scripture, who is it that reigns from the heavenly Jerusalem?

King James Version Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

According to the following which kingdom will the saints posses after the return of Christ and judgment?

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

We know as it is written that this earth shall be no more when Christ returns, so if he reigns in Jerusalem on this present earth with his saints and not in the New Jerusalem, does that agree with the word of God?

DIZZY
Nov 25th 2007, 12:17 PM
From the following scripture, who is it that reigns from the heavenly Jerusalem?

[quote]
King James Version Revelation 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


I believe it says that God and the Lamb shall be on the throne and His servants serve Him. It is possible that we will be more than servants we will reign with Him in the New Jerusalem.

These verses above can not be paired with the verses below for they speak of two different subjects. The above one speaks of the Heavenly Jerusalem. The below verses speak of the earthly Jerusalem.




According to the following which kingdom will the saints posses after the return of Christ and judgment?

In answer to this question I believe the saints will posses the earthly Kingdom after Christ judges the nations. I am not talking about His bride (The Churvh), I am talking about those saints that were alive when Christ returned. Those who survived the Great Tribulation AKA the Israelites, the tribe of Judah who put their faith and trust in the Lord they will posses the land. They will serve the Lord as witnesses to the nations. Only those Gentiles who put their faith and trust in the lord will survive and live in the Millennial kingdom with the above mentioned people.



Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

We know as it is written that this earth shall be no more when Christ returns, so if he reigns in Jerusalem on this present earth with his saints and not in the New Jerusalem, does that agree with the word of God? Yes it does agree with God for He will reign from this earth for 1000yrs and then He will destroy this earth and create a New Heaven and a New Earth and a New Jerusalem and He will reign over all.

What we must realizing is that Christ will physically reign from Jerusalem on this earth in the Millennial reign, and His saints will reign with Him physically in their new improved bodies.

Then there is the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ the Lamb and the Lord God will reign once agin I believe we might be reigning with Christ in the New Jerusalem aswell.

Revelation is speaking of the heavenly reign, while Daniel is speaking of the earthly reign.

ShirleyFord
Nov 25th 2007, 02:11 PM
Revelation is speaking of the heavenly reign, while Daniel is speaking of the earthly reign.

Daniel doesn't speak of a temporal thousand yr. kingdom or a temporal thousand yr. reign. But he speaks of an eternal kingdom and an eternal reign:

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 25th 2007, 09:36 PM
Daniel doesn't speak of a temporal thousand yr. kingdom or a temporal thousand yr. reign. But he speaks of an eternal kingdom and an eternal reign:

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Shirley

We can not just pick out verses and make them to suit our beliefs, we must look at them in context. Daniel had a vision and the vision was about the end of times and the beast that persecutes the saints and blasphems the God.


Daniel 7:
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

This earthly kingdom shall be destroyed, but the Lord's dominion is everlasting, His eternal kingdom shall never be destroyed.
Daniel’s Visions Interpreted

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kingswhich arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

This is a kingdom that the saints will posses forever it will never return
into the hands of the wicked.

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

This is the earthly kingdom that the saints inherit. Yes their eternal kingdom is everlasting but this verse is speaking about the earthly kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:


‘ The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

The Lord returns and gives the kingdoms (meaning all the lands of the earth shall be given) to the saints.

26 ‘ But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

This is where every thing under the whole heaven is handed over to the saints. They once again will witness to the nations that remain after Christ destroys the beast and his followers. We must realize there will be gentile nations going into the Millennial kingdom, the Israelites will lead the peoples to their God. Zech 8:23


28 “This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

Daniel was troubled ny the vision He saw, He saw a vision of the end times and the destruction of the beast and all that followed him. This is why it was so troubling to Daniel. He knew if God has given him this vision then that is what will happen, he had experienced this many times when he interpreted dreams for others.

ShirleyFord
Nov 25th 2007, 11:56 PM
We can not just pick out verses and make them to suit our beliefs, we must look at them in context. Daniel had a vision and the vision was about the end of times and the beast that persecutes the saints and blasphems the God.


Daniel 7:
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

This earthly kingdom shall be destroyed, but the Lord's dominion is everlasting, His eternal kingdom shall never be destroyed.
Daniel’s Visions Interpreted

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kingswhich arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

This is a kingdom that the saints will posses forever it will never return
into the hands of the wicked.

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

This is the earthly kingdom that the saints inherit. Yes their eternal kingdom is everlasting but this verse is speaking about the earthly kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:


‘ The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

The Lord returns and gives the kingdoms (meaning all the lands of the earth shall be given) to the saints.

26 ‘ But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

This is where every thing under the whole heaven is handed over to the saints. They once again will witness to the nations that remain after Christ destroys the beast and his followers. We must realize there will be gentile nations going into the Millennial kingdom, the Israelites will lead the peoples to their God. Zech 8:23


28 “This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

Daniel was troubled ny the vision He saw, He saw a vision of the end times and the destruction of the beast and all that followed him. This is why it was so troubling to Daniel. He knew if God has given him this vision then that is what will happen, he had experienced this many times when he interpreted dreams for others.

None of these Scriptures you presented, Dizzy, speaks of an earthly millennial kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ.

Daniel 7 like Daniel 2 reveals to Israel the timing of the Coming of Israel's Messiah, which was at the First Coming of Christ.

Daniel 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

1. Babylonian Kingdom - Head - Fine Gold
2. Mede-Persian Kingdom - Breast and Arms - Silver
3. Greecian Kingdom - Belly and Thighs - Brass

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

4. Roman Kingdom - Legs and Feet - Iron and Clay



34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

5. The Kingdom of the Lord - A Stone that became a Mountain in the time of the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (Babylonian Kingdom)

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee (Mede-Persian Kingdom), and another third kingdom of brass (Greecian Kingdom), which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom (The Roman Empire) shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Jesus sets up His Kingdom, the 5th Kingdom, during the Roman Empire when it is being ruled by its different kings:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

In Daniel 7 we find the same 4 kingdoms plus the 5th kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

1. Babylonian Kingdom - Head - Fine Gold - Lion
2. Mede-Persian Kingdom - Breast and Arms - Silver - Bear
3. Greecian Kingdom - Belly and Thighs - Brass - Leopard
4. Roman Kingdom - Legs and Feet - Iron and Clay

Jesus received His kingdom, the fifth kingdom at His ascension in the days of the Roman Empire:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there (in heaven) was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.





Shirley

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 26th 2007, 12:19 AM
Technically Jesus Christ is the living waters so where He is the river will flow, whether here on earth or in heaven, so to answer your question in regards to the river of life. There is only one river of life and that is Christ and whoever drinks from Him shall have eternal life.


I agree with this post. I am just now posting to this site. I am on another forum that uses VB as there lay out but this one is a bit different. I hope to be posting here in the future. I have been a Christian for 28 years and I am currently reading the Bible for the fifth time. I hope to engage with you nice folks on some of these threads. Stand by old Isaac loves the Word and good threads to post on. See ya soon ! :monkeyd:

ShirleyFord
Nov 26th 2007, 12:57 AM
Technically Jesus Christ is the living waters so where He is the river will flow, whether here on earth or in heaven, so to answer your question in regards to the river of life. There is only one river of life and that is Christ and whoever drinks from Him shall have eternal life.


I agree with this post. I am just now posting to this site. I am on another forum that uses VB as there lay out but this one is a bit different. I hope to be posting here in the future. I have been a Christian for 28 years and I am currently reading the Bible for the fifth time. I hope to engage with you nice folks on some of these threads. Stand by old Isaac loves the Word and good threads to post on. See ya soon ! :monkeyd:

Welcome Isaac! Looking forward to your posts!


Shirley

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 01:12 AM
Technically Jesus Christ is the living waters so where He is the river will flow, whether here on earth or in heaven, so to answer your question in regards to the river of life. There is only one river of life and that is Christ and whoever drinks from Him shall have eternal life.


I agree with this post. I am just now posting to this site. I am on another forum that uses VB as there lay out but this one is a bit different. I hope to be posting here in the future. I have been a Christian for 28 years and I am currently reading the Bible for the fifth time. I hope to engage with you nice folks on some of these threads. Stand by old Isaac loves the Word and good threads to post on. See ya soon ! :monkeyd:
Welcome Isaac, I hope you enjoy the fellowship here. It is a wonderful place to learn and grow in the word of God. I find it great beacuse I have never dived so deep into the word of God as I have in the past few months. So enjoy the feast around the Lords table.

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 02:38 AM
None of these Scriptures you presented, Dizzy, speaks of an earthly millennial kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ.

Daniel 7 like Daniel 2 reveals to Israel the timing of the Coming of Israel's Messiah, which was at the First Coming of Christ.

Daniel 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

1. Babylonian Kingdom - Head - Fine Gold
2. Mede-Persian Kingdom - Breast and Arms - Silver
3. Greecian Kingdom - Belly and Thighs - Brass

33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

4. Roman Kingdom - Legs and Feet - Iron and Clay



34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

5. The Kingdom of the Lord - A Stone that became a Mountain in the time of the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (Babylonian Kingdom)

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee (Mede-Persian Kingdom), and another third kingdom of brass (Greecian Kingdom), which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom (The Roman Empire) shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Jesus sets up His Kingdom, the 5th Kingdom, during the Roman Empire when it is being ruled by its different kings:

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

In Daniel 7 we find the same 4 kingdoms plus the 5th kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

1. Babylonian Kingdom - Head - Fine Gold - Lion
2. Mede-Persian Kingdom - Breast and Arms - Silver - Bear
3. Greecian Kingdom - Belly and Thighs - Brass - Leopard
4. Roman Kingdom - Legs and Feet - Iron and Clay

Jesus received His kingdom, the fifth kingdom at His ascension in the days of the Roman Empire:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there (in heaven) was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Shirley

It is not up to me to convince anyone of the truth. I am just a humble servant of God's therefore I will leave this in God's hands. We all shall know the truth when He comes.

God Bless all His dear Children

Firstfruits
Nov 26th 2007, 08:59 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1450217]From the following scripture, who is it that reigns from the heavenly Jerusalem?



I believe it says that God and the Lamb shall be on the throne and His servants serve Him. It is possible that we will be more than servants we will reign with Him in the New Jerusalem.

These verses above can not be paired with the verses below for they speak of two different subjects. The above one speaks of the Heavenly Jerusalem. The below verses speak of the earthly Jerusalem.




In answer to this question I believe the saints will posses the earthly Kingdom after Christ judges the nations. I am not talking about His bride (The Churvh), I am talking about those saints that were alive when Christ returned. Those who survived the Great Tribulation AKA the Israelites, the tribe of Judah who put their faith and trust in the Lord they will posses the land. They will serve the Lord as witnesses to the nations. Only those Gentiles who put their faith and trust in the lord will survive and live in the Millennial kingdom with the above mentioned people.

Yes it does agree with God for He will reign from this earth for 1000yrs and then He will destroy this earth and create a New Heaven and a New Earth and a New Jerusalem and He will reign over all.

What we must realizing is that Christ will physically reign from Jerusalem on this earth in the Millennial reign, and His saints will reign with Him physically in their new improved bodies.

Then there is the heavenly Jerusalem where Christ the Lamb and the Lord God will reign once agin I believe we might be reigning with Christ in the New Jerusalem aswell.

Revelation is speaking of the heavenly reign, while Daniel is speaking of the earthly reign.

How do these scriptures apply to the Jerusalem on this earth, which as it is written shall be destroyed?

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

What happens to Jerusalem the everlasting kingdom, which lasts for ever even for ever and ever, and shall not pass away, When this earth is destoyed?

Can it stand without this earth remaining forever, and not being destoyed?

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 09:18 AM
[quote=DIZZY;1450219]

How do these scriptures apply to the Jerusalem on this earth, which as it is written shall be destroyed?

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

What happens to Jerusalem the everlasting kingdom, which lasts for ever even for ever and ever, and shall not pass away, When this earth is destoyed?

Can it stand without this earth remaining forever, and not being destoyed?

Hi Firstfruits,
Tell me is Christ's kingdom and earthly kingdom or a spiritual kingdom?

Firstfruits
Nov 26th 2007, 09:35 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1451039]

Hi Firstfruits,
Tell me is Christ's kingdom and earthly kingdom or a spiritual kingdom?

Spiritual

Heb 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

2 Cor 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 12:10 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1451044]

[quote]
Spiritual

This is correct. Christ came so that He could set up the spiritual Kingdom. yet the Israelites wanted Him to reign from the earthly thrown. That was not on Christ's agenda at that point in time.


Heb 12:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

2 Cor 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Daniel 7:27
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

What is the kingdom under heaven?

Firstfruits
Nov 26th 2007, 12:52 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1451051][quote=DIZZY;1451044]


This is correct. Christ came so that He could set up the spiritual Kingdom. yet the Israelites wanted Him to reign from the earthly thrown. That was not on Christ's agenda at that point in time.



Daniel 7:27
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

What is the kingdom under heaven?

Since there will be a new heaven and earth, the following is self explanatory.

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The new earth, as God has promised will remain, will not be destroyed as this present one will.

It is the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 26th 2007, 01:27 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1451039]

Hi Firstfruits,
Tell me is Christ's kingdom and earthly kingdom or a spiritual kingdom?
On earth as it is in Heaven ! Yes it is on earth. My opinion. I pray this prayer all the time and this part stands out to me in a very strong way. We will be in a spiritual body on this very planet.

Firstfruits
Nov 26th 2007, 01:46 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1451044]
On earth as it is in Heaven ! Yes it is on earth. My opinion. I pray this prayer all the time and this part stands out to me in a very strong way. We will be in a spiritual body on this very planet.


Did you check the following scriptures, if this earth according to Gods promise is passed away, how can it be this planet?

Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The new earth, as God has promised will remain, will not be destroyed as this present one will.

It is the New Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Do you believe that the first heaven and the first earth will pass away?

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Are you looking for new heavens and a new earth according to Gods promise?

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 08:12 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1451106][quote=Firstfruits;1451051]

Since there will be a new heaven and earth, the following is self explanatory. Yes I do

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Not before Christ's millennial reign on the earth. He restores everything and reigns for 1000yrs with His bride. While the Israelites (Jews) lead the nations to God.

Zechariah 8
Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future

1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.’

3 “Thus says the LORD:


‘ I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’

4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.’

6 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?’
Says the LORD of hosts.

7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.’

9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built.
10 For before these days
There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast;
There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in;
For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the LORD of hosts.
12 ‘ For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.’

14 “For thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Just as I determined to punish you
When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ And I would not relent,
15 So again in these days
I am determined to do good
To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
Do not fear.
16 These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,’
Says the LORD.”

18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ The fast of the fourth month,
The fast of the fifth,
The fast of the seventh,
And the fast of the tenth,
Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts
For the house of Judah.
Therefore love truth and peace.’

20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,

“ Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”



Is 65:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=65&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is 66:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=66&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. God will make the new heavens and new earth after He has completed what He started to do with the old ones.

The new earth, as God has promised will remain, will not be destroyed as this present one will.

It is the New Jerusalem. Yes

Rev 21:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Where do you believe this is?

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

DIZZY
Nov 26th 2007, 08:14 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1451044]
On earth as it is in Heaven ! Yes it is on earth. My opinion. I pray this prayer all the time and this part stands out to me in a very strong way. We will be in a spiritual body on this very planet.

From just what you have written I gather you don't believe the earth will be destroyed. Am I right in saying that? Please correct me if I am wrong.

KnightwithDignity
Nov 26th 2007, 10:14 PM
The coming of Jesus the second time.

Comes with the angels of heaven.

The wicked hide from the coming of the Lord

Jesus speaks and at the sound of His voice, the dead in Christ awake from the sleep of death. The great resurrection. They receive new bodies like after His resurrection body.

The righteous who are still alive at His coming are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Their bodies are changed into glorified bodies like after His resurrection body.

The redeemed are all then gathered together from all the corners of the earth by the angels of heaven that came with Jesus.

All together they rise up into the air to evermore be with the Lord.

And where is their destination. Heaven. Jesus is going to take them back to the place that He has prepared for them. And they shall reign with him 1000 years.

But what about the wicked. The wicked who are dead... the rest of the dead lived not again until after 1000 years. The wicked who are alive when Jesus comes... are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

And what happens to their bodies. God calls forth the birds of the air and the animals of the earth to feast upon the bodies of the wicked. The sacrifice that God has made for them. And what happens to their bones. They remain upon the face of the earth. Not to be buried.

that leaves no man on this earth.

And what about the state of the earth. At the coming of Jesus, the sun moon and stars cease to give forth their light upon the earth. The earth becomes a place of darkness. Without light not plants can survive. The earth becomes a place of desolation and barren. With great heavings of the earth the cities of man tumble and break and remain in ruins.

KnightwithDignity
Nov 26th 2007, 10:25 PM
The coming of Jesus the third time.

Jesus will return to the earth after 1000 years. With him come all the saints who have been redeemed from the earth. Also coming to the earth at this time is the New Jerusalem.

When Jesus comes the third time, his foot will touch the earth on mt olives. A great earthquake splits the hill in half east and west, but also in half again north and south. This creates a great plain. And it is upon this plain that the New Jerusalem shall sit.
Jesus foot touching that spot makes it holy. Therefore the holy city coming from heaven can rest on that spot.

Jesus speaks and at the sound of his voice, all the wicked who are dead, for there are none alive, awaken from their sleep. But they do not recieve glorified bodies like unto Jesus. For they are not worthy. They must therefore begiven old bodies like they had previously.

The wicked are tempted by the devil. They come up against the camp of the saints (New Jerusalem). Why would they do this. Because as unforgiven sinners there is something in the New Jerusalem that they need to have everlasting life. It is the tree of life.

The gates of the New Jerusalem are guarded by angels. Just as the gate to the garden of eden was guarded by an angel. What is their job. to protect the way to the tree of life. to keep out the wicked.

after this is the Judgement. The setting up of the great white throne. Only the wicked will be judged. Why. Because the righteous have already been judged. Found faithfull. And been given their reward. only the wicked have not received their due reward. Which is stated as being the lake of fire. The second death.

Only after all this has transpired will the World be cleansed by fire, which it has been reserved for since the great flood of noah. Then God will create a new earth. The new Jerusalem will be its capital. And Jesus will sit on the throne. And the righteous will inherit the land in fulfillment of all the promises made in the scriptures.

Firstfruits
Nov 27th 2007, 10:58 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1451131][quote=DIZZY;1451106]

Where do you believe this is?

Zechariah 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

From the following scriptures, I believe that it is the New Jerusalem.

Zech 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Zech 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This as it is written takes place at the day of the Lord, taking into account the whole chapter of Zechariah 14:

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2007, 09:34 AM
[quote=DIZZY;1451657][quote=Firstfruits;1451131]

From the following scriptures, I believe that it is the New Jerusalem.

Zech 8:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Zech 8:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=38&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

This as it is written takes place at the day of the Lord, taking into account the whole chapter of Zechariah 14:

We need to read not just a few verses in Zechariah 8 if we read all we find it is talking about the earthly Jerusalem not the new Jerusalem. There are a few points that make me believe it is the earthly Jerusalem. I have marked out in red a few details that show me why this is the earthly Jerusalem.
1) The Lord says He will return to Zion.
2) People get old.
3) There are children there
4) The Lord speaks of the remnant. He promised that He would always leave a remnant to inherit the land.
5) The Lord brings Israel and Judah back to Jerusalem to dwell. If it was the new Jerusalem they can't be brought back because they never left it.

Just a few minor details I thought you would like to share.

Zechariah 8


1 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came, saying, 2 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'I am zealous for Zion with great zeal; With great fervor I am zealous for her.' 3 "Thus says the Lord: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.' 4 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Old men and old women shall again sit In the streets of Jerusalem, Each one with his staff in his hand Because of great age. 5 The streets of the city Shall be full of boys and girls Playing in its streets.' 6 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' Says the Lord of hosts. 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east And from the land of the west; 8 I will bring them back, And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.'
9 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Let your hands be strong, You who have been hearing in these days These words by the mouth of the prophets, Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid For the house of the Lord of hosts, That the temple might be built. 10 For before these days There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast; There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in; For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor. 11 'But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' says the Lord of hosts. 12 'For the seed shall be prosperous, The vine shall give its fruit, The ground shall give her increase, And the heavens shall give their dew-- I will cause the remnant of this people To possess all these. 13 And it shall come to pass That just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, Let your hands be strong.' 14 "For thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Just as I determined to punish you When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'And I would not relent, 15 So again in these days I am determined to do good To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. Do not fear. 16 These are the things you shall do: Speak each man the truth to his neighbor; Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace; 17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord." 18 Then the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, 19 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'The fast of the fourth month, The fast of the fifth, The fast of the seventh, And the fast of the tenth, Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts For the house of Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.' 20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord, And seek the Lord of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the Lord.' 23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." ' "

Firstfruits
Nov 28th 2007, 12:04 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1452351][quote=DIZZY;1451657]

We need to read not just a few verses in Zechariah 8 if we read all we find it is talking about the earthly Jerusalem not the new Jerusalem. There are a few points that make me believe it is the earthly Jerusalem. I have marked out in red a few details that show me why this is the earthly Jerusalem.
1) The Lord says He will return to Zion.
2) People get old.
3) There are children there
4) The Lord speaks of the remnant. He promised that He would always leave a remnant to inherit the land.
5) The Lord brings Israel and Judah back to Jerusalem to dwell. If it was the new Jerusalem they can't be brought back because they never left it.

Just a few minor details I thought you would like to share.

Zechariah 8


1 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came, saying, 2 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'I am zealous for Zion with great zeal; With great fervor I am zealous for her.' 3 "Thus says the Lord: 'I will return to Zion, And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, The Holy Mountain.' 4 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Old men and old women shall again sit In the streets of Jerusalem, Each one with his staff in his hand Because of great age. 5 The streets of the city Shall be full of boys and girls Playing in its streets.' 6 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?' Says the Lord of hosts. 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east And from the land of the west; 8 I will bring them back, And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.'


9 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Let your hands be strong, You who have been hearing in these days These words by the mouth of the prophets, Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid For the house of the Lord of hosts, That the temple might be built. 10 For before these days There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast; There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in; For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor. 11 'But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' says the Lord of hosts. 12 'For the seed shall be prosperous, The vine shall give its fruit, The ground shall give her increase, And the heavens shall give their dew-- I will cause the remnant of this people To possess all these. 13 And it shall come to pass That just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing. Do not fear, Let your hands be strong.' 14 "For thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Just as I determined to punish you When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'And I would not relent, 15 So again in these days I am determined to do good To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. Do not fear. 16 These are the things you shall do: Speak each man the truth to his neighbor; Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace; 17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord." 18 Then the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, 19 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'The fast of the fourth month, The fast of the fifth, The fast of the seventh, And the fast of the tenth, Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts For the house of Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.' 20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord, And seek the Lord of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the Lord.' 23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." ' "


Thanks Dizzy,

Would you say that the earthly Jerusalem is the everlasting kingdom of God?

Who shall reign in the New Jerusalem?

In which Jerusalem is the throne of God and the Lamb?

DIZZY
Nov 28th 2007, 08:27 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1453690][quote=Firstfruits;1452351]

Thanks Dizzy,

Would you say that the earthly Jerusalem is the everlasting kingdom of God?

Who shall reign in the New Jerusalem?

In which Jerusalem is the throne of God and the Lamb?

Hi Firstfruits,
Physically speaking No the earthly Jerusalem is not the everlasting Kingdom. Will Christ is King and Lord over the earth people will come and worship Him in Jerusalem.

Zecariah 8:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


But spiritually speaking Christ eternal kingdom started when He came the first time.

Mark 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

It's the eternal kingdom at the end of it all that the Lord hands over to His Father, not the earthly one.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

I believe the church (the bride) and Israel will reign with the Lord from the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:7
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Revelation 21:
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I believe the throne of God and the Lamb is in the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=22&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=22&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

Firstfruits
Nov 29th 2007, 11:41 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1453724][quote=DIZZY;1453690]

Hi Firstfruits,
Physically speaking No the earthly Jerusalem is not the everlasting Kingdom. Will Christ is King and Lord over the earth people will come and worship Him in Jerusalem.

Zecariah 8:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


But spiritually speaking Christ eternal kingdom started when He came the first time.

Mark 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=1&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

It's the eternal kingdom at the end of it all that the Lord hands over to His Father, not the earthly one.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

I believe the church (the bride) and Israel will reign with the Lord from the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:7
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Revelation 21:
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=21&version=50&context=verse)
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I believe the throne of God and the Lamb is in the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=22&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=22&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

We are therefore looking for the new heaven and new earth and ultimatly the New Jerusalem, would you agree?

DIZZY
Nov 29th 2007, 12:19 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1454286][quote=Firstfruits;1453724]

We are therefore looking for the new heaven and new earth and ultimatly the New Jerusalem, would you agree? Yes that's what we are aiming for.

But that won't happen until after Christ reigns from Jerusalem here on earth for the thousand years.

After the thousand year reign Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father.

John146
Nov 29th 2007, 06:11 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1454921][quote=DIZZY;1454286] Yes that's what we are aiming for.

But that won't happen until after Christ reigns from Jerusalem here on earth for the thousand years.

After the thousand year reign Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father.

Is the suppposed millennial earthly kingdom going to replace Christ's spiritual kingdom that does not come with observation and is not of this world? When I read 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 I think of Jesus handing over His spiritual kingdom (the kingdom Scripture speaks about) to the Father. We are part of His kingdom now. He will hand over His kingdom to the Father when He comes, according to 1 Corinthians 15:23-24.

Here is how the KJV of 1 Cor 15:23-24 reads:

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Does verse 24 in your version say something like "Then a thousand years later cometh the end..."? How does this passage even remotely suggest that there will be a thousand years between Christ's coming and the end when He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father?

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2007, 12:53 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1454921][quote=DIZZY;1454286] Yes that's what we are aiming for.

But that won't happen until after Christ reigns from Jerusalem here on earth for the thousand years.

After the thousand year reign Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father.

According to the scriptures, what is happening to the earth, and the inhabitants while Jesus is reigning in the millenium, after the beast has reigned?

DIZZY
Dec 1st 2007, 09:26 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1454939][quote=Firstfruits;1454921]

According to the scriptures, what is happening to the earth, and the inhabitants while Jesus is reigning in the millenium, after the beast has reigned?

God restores the earth in the millennial kingdom and the nations will go to the Israelites to be lead to the Lord and they shall all worship the Lord. Those who do not worship the Lord will be punished for He will rule with a rod of iron. There is still sin in the millennial kingdom even though Satan is bound. They still have a will of their own to serve or not to serve the choice is theirs, but thre are consequences if they disobey.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:20-22
20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

Firstfruits
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:08 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1457358][quote=DIZZY;1454939]

God restores the earth in the millennial kingdom and the nations will go to the Israelites to be lead to the Lord and they shall all worship the Lord. Those who do not worship the Lord will be punished for He will rule with a rod of iron. There is still sin in the millennial kingdom even though Satan is bound. They still have a will of their own to serve or not to serve the choice is theirs, but thre are consequences if they disobey.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:20-22
20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

May I ask what happed to "the wrath of God" which is poured out on the earth and the inhabitants (those that worshiped the beast)?

Remember that satan is released to deceive the nations and gather them to Armageddon at the sixth trumpet, with Christ returning after the millenium reign at the seventh trumpet to complete everything that must be done.

Firstfruits
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:19 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1457358][quote=DIZZY;1454939]

God restores the earth in the millennial kingdom and the nations will go to the Israelites to be lead to the Lord and they shall all worship the Lord. Those who do not worship the Lord will be punished for He will rule with a rod of iron. There is still sin in the millennial kingdom even though Satan is bound. They still have a will of their own to serve or not to serve the choice is theirs, but thre are consequences if they disobey.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:20-22
20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

May I ask what happened to "the wrath of God" which is poured out on the earth and the inhabitants after the beast has reigned? Since those in the first resurrection are there because of what the beast has done.

DIZZY
Dec 6th 2007, 11:21 AM
[quote=DIZZY;1457825][quote=Firstfruits;1457358]

[QUOTE]
May I ask what happed to "the wrath of God" which is poured out on the earth and the inhabitants (those that worshiped the beast)?


Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&version=50&context=chapter#fen-NKJV-31030i)] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.



Remember that satan is released to deceive the nations and gather them to Armageddon at the sixth trumpet, with Christ returning after the millenium reign at the seventh trumpet to complete everything that must be done.


Satan is not bound until those who come against the Lord are destroyed and the beat and false prophet are throne into the lake of fire.

Satan is bound a thousand years and at the same time the Lord starts His millennial reign.

We must remember when we get to the bowl judgments they happen in a rapid fire.

Firstfruits
Dec 6th 2007, 12:44 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1458172][quote=DIZZY;1457825][quote=Firstfruits;1457358]



Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=19&version=50&context=chapter#fen-NKJV-31030i)] and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.



Satan is not bound until those who come against the Lord are destroyed and the beat and false prophet are throne into the lake of fire.

Satan is bound a thousand years and at the same time the Lord starts His millennial reign.

We must remember when we get to the bowl judgments they happen in a rapid fire.

According to the following satan is the one who gathers the nations against the Lord, it is then that they are destroyed as it is written.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

third hero
Dec 6th 2007, 03:53 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1454939][quote=Firstfruits;1454921]

Is the suppposed millennial earthly kingdom going to replace Christ's spiritual kingdom that does not come with observation and is not of this world? When I read 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 I think of Jesus handing over His spiritual kingdom (the kingdom Scripture speaks about) to the Father. We are part of His kingdom now. He will hand over His kingdom to the Father when He comes, according to 1 Corinthians 15:23-24.

Here is how the KJV of 1 Cor 15:23-24 reads:

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Does verse 24 in your version say something like "Then a thousand years later cometh the end..."? How does this passage even remotely suggest that there will be a thousand years between Christ's coming and the end when He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father?

So...
what you are implying is that Christ, in 1 Cor 15:23-24, is giving His spiritual kingdom to God the Father....

for destruction?

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Christ's Kingdom suppose to only have ONE AUTHORITY? So, according to your question, Jesus hands His Kingdom over to the Father because He has put down himself? Now that makes no sense at all!

Here, read verses 25-26.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

From here, we see something. From verse 23, we see two resurrections. One is Christ's resurrection, and then the believers AT HIS COMING! After that, the end comes. How long does the end take? Well, according to verses 25-26, Christ must reign until Death is destroyed.

So, the sequence is as follows according to Paul.

1. Christ must first be resurrected. (fulfilled)
2. The believers must be resurrected at His Coming (unfulfilled)
3. Christ must put under His feet every authority that is not of God.
4. Jesus then hands the earth over to the Father for destruction.

In between three and four, Jesus must reign. From where? Where did He return to? The earth.

How long does it take? The answer is in Revelation 20. A little over 1000 years. I didn't say that, the Bible did.

third hero
Dec 6th 2007, 04:01 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1462807][quote=Firstfruits;1458172][quote=DIZZY;1457825]

According to the following satan is the one who gathers the nations against the Lord, it is then that they are destroyed as it is written.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is not the gathering in chapter 16. This is another gathering. This one happens after Satan is bound. The gathering in chapter 16 is when Satan is full of wrath, as mentioned in chapter 12, walking in the fulll arrayment of his power through the beast. The results of each can be found in what happens after each gathering.

1. After the kings of the earth are assembled at Armageddon, the Lord comes and destroys them, captures their leaders, and throws those two into the Lake of Fire.

2. After Satan gathers the wicked after his imprisonment, the people are destroyed by fire from heaven, which is vastly different than elimination by Christ's words and the armies of heaven's swords. Judgment Day comes right after this event, wher Satan joins those who were already burning in the Lake.

The main indicators of the differences of these events is found in the wording. Satan, in Chapter 20:10 is thrown into a place that the Beast and the FAls prophet were already in. So, they are not thrown in together, but on separaate occasions.

I hope this helps a little.

losthorizon
Dec 7th 2007, 02:40 AM
...The main indicators of the differences of these events is found in the wording. Satan, in Chapter 20:10 is thrown into a place that the Beast and the FAls prophet were already in. So, they are not thrown in together, but on separaate occasions.

I would respectfully disagree. Satan was cast “into the lake of fire and brimstone”, i.e., the final and eternal destination of the condemned. This clearly takes place at the second coming of Christ (the end of time). The narrative states “the beast and the false prophet” were already in this same lake of fire, but there is nothing in the text to make these “castings into hell” three separate events separated by great expanses of time.

The fact that John witnessed the beast and the false prophet in the “lake of fire” before he saw the Devil “cast in” does not require separate occurrences in the evolution of end-time events unless one needs to support a particular dogma.

DIZZY
Dec 7th 2007, 08:27 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1462840][quote=DIZZY;1462807][quote=Firstfruits;1458172]

This is not the gathering in chapter 16. This is another gathering. This one happens after Satan is bound. The gathering in chapter 16 is when Satan is full of wrath, as mentioned in chapter 12, walking in the fulll arrayment of his power through the beast. The results of each can be found in what happens after each gathering.

1. After the kings of the earth are assembled at Armageddon, the Lord comes and destroys them, captures their leaders, and throws those two into the Lake of Fire.

2. After Satan gathers the wicked after his imprisonment, the people are destroyed by fire from heaven, which is vastly different than elimination by Christ's words and the armies of heaven's swords. Judgment Day comes right after this event, wher Satan joins those who were already burning in the Lake.

The main indicators of the differences of these events is found in the wording. Satan, in Chapter 20:10 is thrown into a place that the Beast and the FAls prophet were already in. So, they are not thrown in together, but on separaate occasions.

I hope this helps a little.

You have confused the post it was firstfruits that said the above not me.

I know there are two gatherings and Armageddon is totally different to the gathering of Satans crew at the end of the millennial kingdom. It is not just the wicked that Satan gathers to battle against the Lord it is his demon hoards aswell. I agree with you they are seperate occasions.

DIZZY
Dec 7th 2007, 08:37 AM
[quote=third hero;1463049][quote=Firstfruits;1462840][quote=DIZZY;1462807]

You have confused the post it was firstfruits that said the above not me.

I know there are two gatherings and Armageddon is totally different to the gathering of Satans crew at the end of the millennial kingdom. It is not just the wicked that Satan gathers to battle against the Lord it is his demon hoards aswell. I agree with you they are seperate occasions.

I was replying to third hero and firstfruits quote ends up in the centre of my reply. What is going on?

DIZZY
Dec 7th 2007, 09:45 AM
I would respectfully disagree. Satan was cast “into the lake of fire and brimstone”, i.e., the final and eternal destination of the condemned. This clearly takes place at the second coming of Christ (the end of time). The narrative states “the beast and the false prophet” were already in this same lake of fire, but there is nothing in the text to make these “castings into hell” three separate events separated by great expanses of time.

The fact that John witnessed the beast and the false prophet in the “lake of fire” before he saw the Devil “cast in” does not require separate occurrences in the evolution of end-time events unless one needs to support a particular dogma.


Hi losthorizon,
I disagee with you Satan is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon which is when the Lord returns, he is cast into the lake of fire after the millennial period. It is fact that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire one thousand years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

It is fact that Armageddon is a totally different battle than that at the end of the millennial reign. One just needs to read the word to see they are seperate occasions and there is quite a gap between each event.

Firstfruits
Dec 7th 2007, 10:47 AM
[quote=Firstfruits;1462840][quote=DIZZY;1462807][quote=Firstfruits;1458172]

This is not the gathering in chapter 16. This is another gathering. This one happens after Satan is bound. The gathering in chapter 16 is when Satan is full of wrath, as mentioned in chapter 12, walking in the fulll arrayment of his power through the beast. The results of each can be found in what happens after each gathering.

1. After the kings of the earth are assembled at Armageddon, the Lord comes and destroys them, captures their leaders, and throws those two into the Lake of Fire.

2. After Satan gathers the wicked after his imprisonment, the people are destroyed by fire from heaven, which is vastly different than elimination by Christ's words and the armies of heaven's swords. Judgment Day comes right after this event, wher Satan joins those who were already burning in the Lake.

The main indicators of the differences of these events is found in the wording. Satan, in Chapter 20:10 is thrown into a place that the Beast and the FAls prophet were already in. So, they are not thrown in together, but on separaate occasions.

I hope this helps a little.

If the gathering at Armagddon is at the sixth vial:

1. After the kings of the earth are assembled at Armageddon, the Lord comes and destroys them, captures their leaders, and throws those two into the Lake of Fire.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

And the end of the earth is the seventh vial:

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

How can the following be fulfilled if they are not the same event?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

David Taylor
Dec 7th 2007, 03:48 PM
Hi losthorizon,
I disagee with you Satan is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon which is when the Lord returns, he is cast into the lake of fire after the millennial period.

Isaiah expected Satan to be destroyed at the 2nd Coming....

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong swordshall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."

Firstfruits
Dec 8th 2007, 01:30 PM
Hi losthorizon,
I disagee with you Satan is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon which is when the Lord returns, he is cast into the lake of fire after the millennial period. It is fact that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire one thousand years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

It is fact that Armageddon is a totally different battle than that at the end of the millennial reign. One just needs to read the word to see they are seperate occasions and there is quite a gap between each event.

Please can you clarify something for me regarding the end of this earth?
Which of these scriptures depicts the end of the earth?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

From your answer, can you explain how, if the earth has been destoyed at either, can satan be destroyed a thousand years afterward and where do the people come from if they are destroyed at armageddon?

losthorizon
Dec 8th 2007, 03:37 PM
Hi losthorizon,
I disagee with you Satan is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon which is when the Lord returns, he is cast into the lake of fire after the millennial period. It is fact that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire one thousand years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

It is fact that Armageddon is a totally different battle than that at the end of the millennial reign. One just needs to read the word to see they are seperate occasions and there is quite a gap between each event.
Dizzy – is this simply your opinion based on your doctrinal presuppositions or do you offer scriptural support to back up your position? As mentioned already - there is nothing in the text to make these “castings into hell” three separate events separated by great expanses of time. :)

Mograce2U
Dec 8th 2007, 05:59 PM
Isaiah expected Satan to be destroyed at the 2nd Coming....

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong swordshall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine." Actually "2nd coming" would have been a foreign idea to Isaiah. What he expected was that the dead would be raised when the Lord came to punish the wicked inhabitants of the earth, and that He would slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Now does Isaiah see the serpent who he calls leviathan as being the same as the dragon of the sea? He definitely sees the devil as being this serpent leviathan whom God will punish, but is his use of dragon the same as we see in Revelation?

Other appearances of dragon in the OT refer to men who are empowered by the devil - like Egypt and Nebuchadrezzar. Also further on in Ch 27, it seems like Isaiah is pointing to the 1st advent rather than the 2nd. A time when Israel blossoms and buds and fills the earth with fruit.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 8th 2007, 06:35 PM
Dizzy,

I would like to add another good passage mentioned Satan shall be destroy at Christ's coming immediately.

In 2 Thess. 2:8-9 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders."

This passage telling us, when Satan shall be loosed out of the way(midst)-loosed out of the bottomless pit - Rev. 20:7, then he shall deceive the world and persecute the Church for a short time, then when Christ shall come, He will destroy satan immediately. This passage doesn't saying that satan will have another second chnace BEYOND second coming as supposed '1000 years later'. This passage tells us, satan shall be destroy immediately at Christ's coming, by cast him into the lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
Dec 8th 2007, 06:39 PM
Mograce2u,

Remember that, Isaiah received visions like as John received visions of Revelation. Satan have several different names, yet all are apply him as devil. No doubt, Isaiah, the prophet did described on Satan. Even, in Isaiah chapter 14 did mentioned on Satan as it called him, 'Lucifer'.

Dave,

Amen to that verse! I like this verse describes so very clear on Satan at Christ's coming!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Mograce2U
Dec 8th 2007, 09:02 PM
Mograce2u,

Remember that, Isaiah received visions like as John received visions of Revelation. Satan have several different names, yet all are apply him as devil. No doubt, Isaiah, the prophet did described on Satan. Even, in Isaiah chapter 14 did mentioned on Satan as it called him, 'Lucifer'.

Dave,

Amen to that verse! I like this verse describes so very clear on Satan at Christ's coming!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!Hi DPT,
I know Isaiah spoke by the same Spirit as John, but translators can be a bit biased. Also that verse in 2 Thes 2 you mentioned to Dizzy has some translation difficulties as well. For instance the English adds "with" twice which is not there in the Greek. And if the one who is to be destroyed is the one who works according to Satan - by his power - then we have a similar scenario to Isaiah. Is it Satan whose brightness is to be destroyed or the one in whom he is working?

Firstfruits
Dec 10th 2007, 08:41 PM
Dizzy,

I would like to add another good passage mentioned Satan shall be destroy at Christ's coming immediately.

In 2 Thess. 2:8-9 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders."

This passage telling us, when Satan shall be loosed out of the way(midst)-loosed out of the bottomless pit - Rev. 20:7, then he shall deceive the world and persecute the Church for a short time, then when Christ shall come, He will destroy satan immediately. This passage doesn't saying that satan will have another second chnace BEYOND second coming as supposed '1000 years later'. This passage tells us, satan shall be destroy immediately at Christ's coming, by cast him into the lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I believe the following refers to the antichrist/man of sin and not satan.

Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-10
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 13:11-18
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This is not satan, it is the antichrist.

DIZZY
Dec 11th 2007, 11:19 AM
I believe the following refers to the antichrist/man of sin and not satan.

Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-10
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 13:11-18
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This is not satan, it is the antichrist.

Hi Firstfruits,
I think you will find the one you are speaking of as Anti-Christ is actually the beast in 1 Thessalonians 2:3-10 and he is empowered by Satan this beast you find in Daniel 9:27 he ceases the sacrifices half way through a covenant that was made with Israel, and you find him again in Matthew24:15,Mark 13:14 and Revelation 13:4-7 I believe this person has political power.

The one you speak of in Revelation 13:11-18 is actually the false prophet this beast is the religious side of Satan's tri union. Satan (father), Beast 1 political leader king of nations (son), Beast 2 false prophet so called (spirititual leader not Holy Spirit ). So this second beast is surposedly meant to be like the Holy Spirit leading the people to worship the 1st Beast. He does what the Holy Spirit does in God's tri union. The true Holy Spirit brings people into the knowledge of Jesus Christ and we bow before Him and worship Him as our Lord and King.

So you see you are actually talking about two entities here not one.

God Bless

Firstfruits
Dec 11th 2007, 11:53 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
I think you will find the one you are speaking of as Anti-Christ is actually the beast in 1 Thessalonians 2:3-10 and he is empowered by Satan this beast you find in Daniel 9:27 he ceases the sacrifices half way through a covenant that was made with Israel, and you find him again in Matthew24:15,Mark 13:14 and Revelation 13:4-7 I believe this person has political power.

The one you speak of in Revelation 13:11-18 is actually the false prophet this beast is the religious side of Satan's tri union. Satan (father), Beast 1 political leader king of nations (son), Beast 2 false prophet so called (spirititual leader not Holy Spirit ). So this second beast is surposedly meant to be like the Holy Spirit leading the people to worship the 1st Beast. He does what the Holy Spirit does in God's tri union. The true Holy Spirit brings people into the knowledge of Jesus Christ and we bow before Him and worship Him as our Lord and King.

So you see you are actually talking about two entities here not one.

God Bless

So do you agree that it is not satan?

Alaska
Dec 12th 2007, 09:38 PM
How many verse do we need to show us that the Lord will reign from Jerusalem for 1000yrs, it is a physical reign, then after the thousand years He hands the kingdom over to His Father.

Too bad the NT that interprets the OT disagrees.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 05:31 AM
Isaiah expected Satan to be destroyed at the 2nd Coming....

Isaiah 26:19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."

Hi David Taylor
When do we find Satan cast into the lake of fire? If we look at Revelation 20:10 we will find this out.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

At the same time as Satan's judgment the wicked are judged before the throne of God this is the final judgment after the thousand year reign. So you see Satan is not destroyed at Christ's second coming it is the beast that comes out of the sea that is destroyed.

Isaiah 27:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=27&verse=1&version=45&context=verse)
IN THAT day [the Lord will deliver Israel from her enemies and also from the rebel powers of evil and darkness] His sharp and unrelenting, great, and strong sword will visit and punish Leviathan the swiftly fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting and winding serpent; and He will slay the monster that is in the sea.

Revelation 13

The Beast from the Sea

1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast (Leviathan)rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

When it says He will slay that dragon it is not talking about Satan it is talking about Leviathan which is the beast that comes out of the sea.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 05:46 AM
Please can you clarify something for me regarding the end of this earth?
Which of these scriptures depicts the end of the earth?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

From your answer, can you explain how, if the earth has been destoyed at either, can satan be destroyed a thousand years afterward and where do the people come from if they are destroyed at armageddon?

Hi Firstfruits
Niether of the above verses speak of the destruction of the earth. The earth is not destroyed until Revelation 20 when Satan surrounds the camp of the saints and Jerusalem.

Revelation 20:7-10
Satanic Rebellion Crushed


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The earth is burned up with fire.

2 Peter 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=7&version=45&context=verse)
But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been stored up (reserved) for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish (pass away) with a thunderous crash, and the [material] elements [of the universe] will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

What does it mean by He come like a theif? They do not know what is happening until it is to late, He has been and they are gone. There is no earthquake or hail this time, it is just the fire that comes down out of heaven to destroy them all.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 06:26 AM
Dizzy – is this simply your opinion based on your doctrinal presuppositions or do you offer scriptural support to back up your position? As mentioned already - there is nothing in the text to make these “castings into hell” three separate events separated by great expanses of time. :)


DizzyHi losthorizon,
I disagee with you Satan is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon which is when the Lord returns, he is cast into the lake of fire after the millennial period. It is fact that the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire one thousand years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

It is fact that Armageddon is a totally different battle than that at the end of the millennial reign. One just needs to read the word to see they are seperate occasions and there is quite a gap between each event.


Hi losthorizon
Okay lets have a look at the battle of Armageddon first.

Zechariah 14:12-15
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.

This is when the Lord returns and He places His feet on the Mount of Olives.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The above chapter and the below chapter are speaking of the same thing, the Lord destroys the beast and the false prophet , the demon hoard and all those who followed them in this battle and He cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire. The unrighteous were cast into outer darkness pending final judgment at the great white throne.

Revelation 16:12-16
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Now lets look at the destruction of Satan. After the Lord reigns from Jerusalem for one thousand years, the Lord destroys Satan and all who follow him.

Zechariah 14:1-11
1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Revelation 20:4,5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

The above mentioned dead do not come to life again until Satan and the rest of his followers are destroyed with the earth.

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan was cast into the place where the beast and false prophet were, so that means Satan is cast into the lake of fire after the beast and false prophet, one thousand years after to be precise.

Now straight after Satan is judged the rest of the dead are raised and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire where Satan, the beast and the false prophet have been cast.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 06:37 AM
Dizzy,

I would like to add another good passage mentioned Satan shall be destroy at Christ's coming immediately.



In 2 Thess. 2:8-9 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders."


The above passage speaks of the one who comes after Satan with signs and lying wonders. This is the beast who Satan gives power to do these things. It is not Satan.



This passage telling us, when Satan shall be loosed out of the way(midst)-loosed out of the bottomless pit - Rev. 20:7, then he shall deceive the world and persecute the Church for a short time, then when Christ shall come, He will destroy satan immediately. This passage doesn't saying that satan will have another second chnace BEYOND second coming as supposed '1000 years later'. This passage tells us, satan shall be destroy immediately at Christ's coming, by cast him into the lake of fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

I am sorry my friend Revelation 20:7 has nothing to do with the above verse. Revelation 20:7-10 is speaking of the destruction of Satan and those who follow him to attack Jerusalem. The Lord destroys them with fire from heaven and casts Satan into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have already been cast. And if you look at the verse you have quoted here does it not say after the thousand year reign Satan will be released. I am quite sure when the Bible says one thousand years it means one thousand years.

Firstfruits
Dec 13th 2007, 08:46 AM
Hi Firstfruits
Niether of the above verses speak of the destruction of the earth. The earth is not destroyed until Revelation 20 when Satan surrounds the camp of the saints and Jerusalem.

Revelation 20:7-10
Satanic Rebellion Crushed


7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The earth is burned up with fire.

2 Peter 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=7&version=45&context=verse)
But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been stored up (reserved) for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.8 Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish (pass away) with a thunderous crash, and the [material] elements [of the universe] will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

What does it mean by He come like a theif? They do not know what is happening until it is to late, He has been and they are gone. There is no earthquake or hail this time, it is just the fire that comes down out of heaven to destroy them all.

Are you saying that Jesus does not come at either the 7th trumpet, or the 7th vial, and if not, when?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

What is happening to the earth in these scriptures?

What happens after?

DIZZY
Dec 14th 2007, 01:18 PM
Are you saying that Jesus does not come at either the 7th trumpet, or the 7th vial, and if not, when?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

What is happening to the earth in these scriptures?

What happens after?

Well the Lord does not come at the seventh trumpet because you still have the bowl judgments to come.

Daniel 12:11-13
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

We know the above verse is talking about the last half of the great tribulation that comes on the world.

12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

The above vision has been given to Daniel who is an Israelite.

Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The above verses are the Lord talking to Israelites (Jews)

13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

There are an extra seventy five days which Daniel saw that comes after the one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Daniel 12:12
12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Why are these people blessed if they wait till the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days. I do not know but I am willing to learn.

Great Tribualtion = 1260 days = 42 mths
Which leaves a total of 75 days

But I do not believe the Lord comes at the end of the bowl judgments either, for that whore has to be destroyed first, then once Babylon is destroyed the Lord returns with His armies to battle the armies that have been gathered together by demons at Armageddon. We se in Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord returning to the earth with His armies and the destruction of the beast and the false prophet who are cast into the lake of fire, the armies of the kings of the earth were destroyed by the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord. The word judges them and they are sent to the pit pending the final judgment.

Firstfruits
Dec 14th 2007, 01:58 PM
Well the Lord does not come at the seventh trumpet because you still have the bowl judgments to come.

Daniel 12:11-13
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

We know the above verse is talking about the last half of the great tribulation that comes on the world.

12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

The above vision has been given to Daniel who is an Israelite.

Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The above verses are the Lord talking to Israelites (Jews)

13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

There are an extra seventy five days which Daniel saw that comes after the one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Daniel 12:12
12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Why are these people blessed if they wait till the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days. I do not know but I am willing to learn.

Great Tribualtion = 1260 days = 42 mths
Which leaves a total of 75 days

But I do not believe the Lord comes at the end of the bowl judgments either, for that whore has to be destroyed first, then once Babylon is destroyed the Lord returns with His armies to battle the armies that have been gathered together by demons at Armageddon. We se in Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord returning to the earth with His armies and the destruction of the beast and the false prophet who are cast into the lake of fire, the armies of the kings of the earth were destroyed by the sword which proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord. The word judges them and they are sent to the pit pending the final judgment.

Let me repeat the question regarding the following.

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

What is happening to the earth in these scriptures?

What happens afterwards?

DIZZY
Dec 17th 2007, 06:57 AM
Let me repeat the question regarding the following.

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

What is happening to the earth in these scriptures?

What happens afterwards?

There is an earthquake, lightning and thunderings in both verses, hail in Rev 11:19. Just as there is in the verses below.

I believe the Bible tells us about the destruction of Babylon, that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

After the destruction of Babylon the Lord returns to the Mount of Olivet and then you have the battle of Armageddon, where the Lord destroys the beast, the false prophet and the wicked who gathered together to fight against the Lord.

Revelation 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 8:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=8&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

The lightnings, thunderings, and earthquakes are used to signify God's judgment on the earth.

Firstfruits
Dec 17th 2007, 09:25 AM
There is an earthquake, lightning and thunderings in both verses, hail in Rev 11:19. Just as there is in the verses below.

I believe the Bible tells us about the destruction of Babylon, that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

After the destruction of Babylon the Lord returns to the Mount of Olivet and then you have the battle of Armageddon, where the Lord destroys the beast, the false prophet and the wicked who gathered together to fight against the Lord.

Revelation 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 8:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=8&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

The lightnings, thunderings, and earthquakes are used to signify God's judgment on the earth.

Thanks Dizzy

At what point do these scriptures apply?

Is 24:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, The earth is clean dissolved, The earth is moved exceedingly

DIZZY
Dec 17th 2007, 12:15 PM
Thanks Dizzy

At what point do these scriptures apply?

Is 24:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ps 75:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=75&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Is 24:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) The earth is utterly broken down, The earth is clean dissolved, The earth is moved exceedingly

God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed.

We must remember that Christ reigns from Jerusalem here on this present earth for a literal thousand years over the Israelites and the believing nations.

Is 24:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

What is the curse? Sin is the curse and death is the punishment of that curse. Sinners are abandoned, they are uterly wretched and unhappy, they are burnes up in their own desires because they do not seek God. God has always kept for Himself a remnant and He will keep Himself a remnant of Israelites to go into the millennial kingdom.

Revelation 12:5,6
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Because the Dragon (Satan) could not touch the remnant of Israelites that God was protecting in the wilderness, Satan decided to go after the rest of her children which are those who are saved from te preaching of the 144,000. We must remember that the 144,000 are also protected by the seal of God.

Revelation 7:1-4
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

So we notice in the verses above that the afflictions and judgment that come upon the earth in the second to the forth seal are from God. He also has His angels put a mark on the forehead before these troubles come on the earth.

It is the 144,000 sealed and the remnant with those who have been saved from the nations, through the preaching of the 144,000 and the prophesying of the two witnesses and the angel that flies about with the everlasting gospel, these people go into the millennial kingdom which is on thispresent dying earth, not the new improved earth that lasts for eternity.

Mograce2U
Dec 17th 2007, 03:12 PM
In the context of the prophecy in Daniel 9 regarding the 70 weeks, there is a clear split that divides the 70th week in two - the cross.

In Dan 12, Daniel asks the angel 2 questions:

1. How long to the end of these wonders?
The answer is that 3 1/2 years will accomplish the scattering of the holy people. This is the last 1/2 of the 70th week. And it is the goal of the latter 1/2 of the week to accomplish this as it sends the gospel into the world after Jesus is departed.

2. What shall be the end of these things?
This is when the 1290 days and 1335 days is given. The marker has already been given that what divides the week is the cross which also must include Jesus' resurrection from the dead since after that is when animal sacrifice becomes an abomination. The angel says nothing that requires that this 1290 days be a forward counting, only that it is from this event that one can find the arrival of Messiah which then points to the beginning of the 70th week. From Jesus' baptism, 1335 days takes us to Pentecost which is when the Holy Spirit arrives to seal the saints. This is what protects them from whatever comes upon the earth after that.

This is the Hope of Israel that the new covenant was to bring for those who were waiting for Him. This is the covenant which Jesus confirmed to Israel during the 70th week that it had arrived. The signs and wonders that Jesus did and later the apostles were the testimony they were to recognize - with the cross as the sign that Jesus was the Christ and Daniel's 70th week had come. Pentecost is the end of the matter for the saints.

Revelation then deals with the culmination of the desolation upon the rest of Israel which comes upon that generation which crucified their Lord - the part that Daniel needn't be concerned with as he was shown the salvation of the final remnant of Israel.

Firstfruits
Dec 17th 2007, 03:45 PM
God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed.

We must remember that Christ reigns from Jerusalem here on this present earth for a literal thousand years over the Israelites and the believing nations.

Is 24:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

What is the curse? Sin is the curse and death is the punishment of that curse. Sinners are abandoned, they are uterly wretched and unhappy, they are burnes up in their own desires because they do not seek God. God has always kept for Himself a remnant and He will keep Himself a remnant of Israelites to go into the millennial kingdom.

Revelation 12:5,6
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Because the Dragon (Satan) could not touch the remnant of Israelites that God was protecting in the wilderness, Satan decided to go after the rest of her children which are those who are saved from te preaching of the 144,000. We must remember that the 144,000 are also protected by the seal of God.

Revelation 7:1-4
1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

So we notice in the verses above that the afflictions and judgment that come upon the earth in the second to the forth seal are from God. He also has His angels put a mark on the forehead before these troubles come on the earth.

It is the 144,000 sealed and the remnant with those who have been saved from the nations, through the preaching of the 144,000 and the prophesying of the two witnesses and the angel that flies about with the everlasting gospel, these people go into the millennial kingdom which is on thispresent dying earth, not the new improved earth that lasts for eternity.

Can you supply the scriptures that reffer to Jesus reigning in Jerusalem on this earth?
Thanks.

With regards to the following if it refers to the earthly Jerusalem, then it cannot be destroyed

God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed.

Zechariah 14:11
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.


Zechariah 8:3-8
3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Firstfruits

DIZZY
Dec 18th 2007, 11:56 AM
Can you supply the scriptures that reffer to Jesus reigning in Jerusalem on this earth?
Thanks.

With regards to the following if it refers to the earthly Jerusalem, then it cannot be destroyed

God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed.



Zechariah 14:11
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


This is not talking about the destruction the ord brings on the earth, it is talking about wars between nations and Israel. They will dwell safely in their land without the fear of being over come by enemies, for they will have no enemies.

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

I feel the NKJ version explains this verse much better, but I feel to do the verse justice we need to add what was said before. This is talking about outcasts those who are afflicted and lame, there are none of those in the new Jerusalem.

Mic 4:6,7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7)
6 “ In that day,” says the LORD,

“ I will assemble the lame,
I will gather the outcast
And those whom I have afflicted;
7 I will make the lame a remnant,
And the outcast a strong nation;
So the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on, even forever.

In Zechariah 8:3-8 below I have highlighted in red just a few things that need to be noticed, because these things don't happen in the new Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8:3-8
3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits I hope what I have said and highlighted helps you. We need to realize that in the new Jerusalem we will be like the angels, we will not marry or have children, so this means there is no getting old either. Just thought you would like to know that. God Bless.

Firstfruits
Dec 18th 2007, 12:08 PM
Hi Firstfruits I hope what I have said and highlighted helps you. We need to realize that in the new Jerusalem we will be like the angels, we will not marry or have children, so this means there is no getting old either. Just thought you would like to know that. God Bless.

If as you have said "God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed. What happens to Jerusalem, which is on the earth which is destroyed?

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Can the Jerusalem which is now, be everlasting if the earth is totally destroyed?

Mograce2U
Dec 18th 2007, 05:48 PM
Hi Dizzy & Firstfruits,
I don't know if you will find this interesting to this discussion or not, but Rev 12 mentions twice that the woman flees to the wilderness where she is fed and is kept from Satan for 3 1/2 years. Then later in 17:3 when John is carried away into the wilderness, he finds there a harlot.

This 1260 days which is after the ascension of the Lord would seem to be the latter half of Daniel's 70th week during which the apostles preach the gospel to Israel. At the end of this period, marked by the gospel going to the Gentiles; is because the Judaizers began persecuting the saints.

There is also this prophecy in Zecariah which seems to be related by the type set in the days of the Babylon Captivity:

The Woman in a Basket
(Zec 5:5-11 KJV) Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. {6} And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. {7} And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. {8} And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. {9} Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. {10} Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? {11} And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

DIZZY
Dec 18th 2007, 07:54 PM
Hi Dizzy & Firstfruits,
I don't know if you will find this interesting to this discussion or not, but Rev 12 mentions twice that the woman flees to the wilderness where she is fed and is kept from Satan for 3 1/2 years. Then later in 17:3 when John is carried away into the wilderness, he finds there a harlot.

This 1260 days which is after the ascension of the Lord would seem to be the latter half of Daniel's 70th week during which the apostles preach the gospel to Israel. At the end of this period, marked by the gospel going to the Gentiles; is because the Judaizers began persecuting the saints.

There is also this prophecy in Zecariah which seems to be related by the type set in the days of the Babylon Captivity:

The Woman in a Basket
(Zec 5:5-11 KJV) Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth. {6} And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth. {7} And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. {8} And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. {9} Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. {10} Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? {11} And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

It is interesting but the bible speaks of a harlot and this Harlot is Satan's false religious system that started at Babylon. Satan is once again bringing his false religions that he has created all over the world back together under the one banner, just like it was in the days of Babel. But that's another thread.

God Bless

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 11:04 AM
If as you have said "God,s judgment on wicked man happens before the millennial period and before the earth is totally destroyed. What happens to Jerusalem, which is on the earth which is destroyed?

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Can the Jerusalem which is now, be everlasting if the earth is totally destroyed?

Hi Firstfruits,
We seem to be going over the same things in two different posts so I will refer you to the other post for the answer here. Millenium Reign - Where? Dizzy post number 101

God Bless

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 12:30 PM
[quote=DIZZY;1475972]Hi Firstfruits,
We seem to be going over the same things in two different posts so I will refer you to the other post for the answer here. Millenium Reign - Where? Dizzy post number 101



I suppose they would at some point meet, as they are about the same subject to a point.

Thanks

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Dec 19th 2007, 05:13 PM
It is interesting but the bible speaks of a harlot and this Harlot is Satan's false religious system that started at Babylon. Satan is once again bringing his false religions that he has created all over the world back together under the one banner, just like it was in the days of Babel. But that's another thread.

God BlessActually what I found interesting is the transition that took place in Israel when SHE became this harlot. There is no direct reference in the book of Revelation to the earthly city of Jerusalem - except by these types which in the past described her enemies. Now SHE is called Sodom, Egypt, Babylon (all past) & Gog/Magog (future) - in contrast to the true holy city of the New Jerusalem which is above.

The true Israel of God post cross, thus has its enemy in the apostate harlot who persecuted them - in the beginning and at the end.

Mograce2U
Dec 20th 2007, 01:59 AM
Hi Allegra,
What I saw in the point I was making is tied to the fact that the churches had a relative period of peace for the first 3 1/2 years. The apostles were delivering the gospel to the Jews during that time (feeding her). It was only after Stephen was stoned that the persecution against the believers intensified and we are told they began exiting Jerusalem - except the apostles who stayed in the city. In this I see that a transition began for the unbelieving Jews as she turns into a harlot. But there would have still been a believing remnant in Israel during that 40 years before the city was siezed.

Revelation certainly seems to show a demonization of those who remained in the city in the release of locusts - which Josephus testifies to as well.

2048. eremos is the word for wilderness and it is the same in both Rev 12 & 17.

As for the woman being the apostolic church we have the metaphor explained for us already:

(Genesis 37:9-11) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. {10} And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? {11} And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

Allegra
Dec 20th 2007, 03:07 AM
Hi Allegra,
What I saw in the point I was making is tied to the fact that the churches had a relative period of peace for the first 3 1/2 years. The apostles were delivering the gospel to the Jews during that time (feeding her). It was only after Stephen was stoned that the persecution against the believers intensified and we are told they began exiting Jerusalem - except the apostles who stayed in the city. In this I see that a transition began for the unbelieving Jews as she turns into a harlot. But there would have still been a believing remnant in Israel during that 40 years before the city was siezed.

Revelation certainly seems to show a demonization of those who remained in the city in the release of locusts - which Josephus testifies to as well.

2048. eremos is the word for wilderness and it is the same in both Rev 12 & 17.

As for the woman being the apostolic church we have the metaphor explained for us already:

(Genesis 37:9-11) And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. {10} And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? {11} And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Well, I have to disagree with 2048 eremos(as would others) being all in all & applied to Rev 12.
Isaiah 40:3 (KJV)
3The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isaiah 32:15
15 Until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high,
And the wilderness becomes a fruitful field,
And the fruitful field is counted as a forest.
Isaiah 35- Here it is applied when Isaiah is speaking of the Redeemed in Christ(the Messiah to come)
The Future Glory of Zion

1 The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them,
And the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose;
2 It shall blossom abundantly and rejoice,
Even with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it,
The excellence of Carmel and Sharon.
They shall see the glory of the LORD,
The excellency of our God.
3 Strengthen the weak hands,
And make firm the feeble knees.
4 Say to those who are fearful-hearted,

“ Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance,
With the recompense of God;
He will come and save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer,
And the tongue of the dumb sing.
For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground shall become a pool,
And the thirsty land springs of water;
In the habitation of jackals, where each lay,
There shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
8 A highway shall be there, and a road,
And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
The unclean shall not pass over it,
But it shall be for others.
Whoever walks the road, although a fool,
Shall not go astray.
9 No lion shall be there,
Nor shall any ravenous beast go up on it;
It shall not be found there.
But the redeemed shall walk there,
10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
Nehemiah 9:21
21 Forty years You sustained them in the wilderness;
They lacked nothing;
Their clothes did not wear out[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Neh%209:21;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-12533a)]
And their feet did not swell.
Footnotes:
Nehemiah 9:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Neh%209:21;&version=50;#en-NKJV-12533) Compare Deuteronomy 29:5
And I couldn't help but notice this rather funny one:
Proverbs 21:1919 Better to dwell in the wilderness,
Than with a contentious and angry woman.

MoGrace2U, there is even a record from Josephus saying that before the Romans destroyed the temple, they did let some Christians leave at that 11th hour. That could be similar to Jesus' warning- about fleeing to the mountains! It isn't as though all the Jewish Christians left at the beginning, but Josephus says the bulk of them did desert the city.

Now, it would be contradicting to the Apostolic church to say anything negative about her. This is the mother church. That is Joseph's 11 stars in Genesis 32 & 37.
So aren't you contradicting the vision about her in Rev12(where she is represented as the true Israel?)
The negative connotation used for her in the "wilderness" or "desert" is erroneous. She is nourished by God(positive description) away from the serpent's reach(positive description) for 42 months(positive description-whether it means bodily or spiritually)
That is why I don't agree with eremos 2048 in this case.

Mograce2U
Dec 20th 2007, 04:13 AM
Allegra,
Ok, but while "the woman" is being fed in the wilderness, the devil is going after her children who hold the testimony of Jesus. That makes a distinction for us between who is who and in view. Daniel 12 tells us that the goal was to scatter the power of "the holy people" - is this the Church?

Allegra
Dec 20th 2007, 05:04 AM
Allegra,
Ok, but while "the woman" is being fed in the wilderness, the devil is going after her children who hold the testimony of Jesus. That makes a distinction for us between who is who and in view. Daniel 12 tells us that the goal was to scatter the power of "the holy people" - is this the Church?
It is important to distinguish who are the "holy" people. It is not the Church (as written per Daniel)
In Rev. 7 & 14 we were introduced to the righteous remnant of Israel. They had to endure the time of persecution for their faith. Just so, in Rev 12 we find the seed of the woman, persecuted by the Dragon. The remnant are followers of the Lamb. Those of old Israel that refuse to follow the Lamb are the synagogue of Satan(Rev 2:9;39)
Moses foretold, & Peter reiterated(Acts 3:24), that a prophet like him would come, & that those who refused to follow Him, would be "cut off from the people" They would no longer be "the people."
Dan.12:7
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. (emphasis mine)
The 1,290 days in Daniel- Josephus informs us that Rome took the spoils of war. Rome did not want to feed the prisoners left, so they sold as many as the Jews as possible. The Lord revealed these last days to Moses in Deut.28:48-68.
When they get down to the last Jews to be processed, suddenly it happens... (this is the blessed who were kept waiting out of Jerusalem) the 1335th day, & after the tribulation. Quite a shock to the Roman army. Yet it was planned this way by God. (see Micah 2:12-13) It is done.

Whoa, getting back to your question. No. The people in Daniel 12 weren't "holy" after all! Rome was doing the shattering.

Mograce2U
Dec 20th 2007, 05:35 PM
Allegra,
Interesting you should mention Deut 28 because as I was reading in Jer 11-12 this morning, it seems that Israel was called to hear again the words of this covenant made thru Moses. Deut was pointing to the Babylon Captivity that would occur and Jeremiah reminds them of those words as it is then coming to pass. But at the end in 12:17 he says this in speaking of a time after they are restored to the land:

(Jer 12:16-17 KJV) And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The LORD liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people. {17} But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Which was not meant to distract from our discussion on Rev 12, but I have been focusing on Rev 11.

I think that Rev 11 in speaking of the 2 witnesses (typifying Moses & Elijah) who are preaching the Law & Prophets, are pointing to the end of the Mosaic covenant - when it finally passes away as this judgment that it includes, comes to pass. And upon their death, we then see a picture of the resurrection of the OT saints in their resurrection.

It is then that the 7th trumpet sounds now that the time of the dead has occurred (11:18) and the temple in heaven is opened in preparation of the sending forth of the vials.

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 10:36 PM
Actually what I found interesting is the transition that took place in Israel when SHE became this harlot. There is no direct reference in the book of Revelation to the earthly city of Jerusalem - except by these types which in the past described her enemies. Now SHE is called Sodom, Egypt, Babylon (all past) & Gog/Magog (future) - in contrast to the true holy city of the New Jerusalem which is above.

The true Israel of God post cross, thus has its enemy in the apostate harlot who persecuted them - in the beginning and at the end.

Hi Mograce,
So when the Bible says my beloved city it is not talking about the earthly Jerusalem.

Revelation 20:9
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

We must not just look to Revelation when it comes to prophecy we must look throughout the old testament aswell, for they back each other up.

Zechariah 8:1-23 speaks of the earthly Jerusalem of the future when the Lord reigns from it and the nations will seek the Jew's so they may take them to worship the Lord. This is the future of Jerusalem and it is spoken of in other books of prophecy aswell but I don't need to put all them for I think Zechariah pretty much say's it all.

God Bless

Mograce2U
Dec 20th 2007, 11:42 PM
Hi Dizzy,

We must not just look to Revelation when it comes to prophecy we must look throughout the old testament aswell, for they back each other up.

I agree!

(Zechariah 8:23) Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

(Mark 5:30) And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

(Matthew 1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

As for Rev 20:9, the surrounding of the camp of the saints, seems figurative to me:

(Hebrews 13:10-14) We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. {11} For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. {12} Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. {13} Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. {14} For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

If we have no continuing city post cross and the OT saints looked forward to the same city which dwells in the heavenlies, then an earthly city is not part of any of our future expectations. Therefore the "camp of the saints" takes on a spiritual understanding, rather than literal.

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 12:40 AM
Hi Dizzy,


I agree!

(Zechariah 8:23) Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.





(Mark 5:30) And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?


I am just assuming that you are using the above verse to match Zech 8:23, if so I must say they are entirely different. In Zech 8:23 the ten men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew in ark the woman only touched the Lord's clothes for healing it does not say she was led to God or anything else to that affect.

Mark 5:28-31
28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”
29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
31 But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’”



(Matthew 1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


This verse still has nothing to do with the ten men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew. Yes we know Jesus is God for He is apart of the Trinity. But the verse in Zechariah 8 is talking about when the Lord is reigning from Jerusalem itself.



As for Rev 20:9, the surrounding of the camp of the saints, seems figurative to me:

(Hebrews 13:10-14) We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. {11} For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. {12} Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. {13} Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. {14} For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

If we have no continuing city post cross and the OT saints looked forward to the same city which dwells in the heavenlies, then an earthly city is not part of any of our future expectations. Therefore the "camp of the saints" takes on a spiritual understanding, rather than literal.
[/QUOTE]

As fore Revelation 20 you are saying that Jerusalem which the Lord reigns from in the thousand year period is not the camp of the saints. I believe after the regeneration of the earth Jerusalem becomes the home for many of the Lord's saints, and Satan will gather his army to try and destroy this camp but the Lord will destroy Him and his army they will be cast finally into the lake of fire. First Satan then those who are not written in the book of life.

losthorizon
Dec 21st 2007, 01:02 AM
As fore Revelation 20 you are saying that Jerusalem which the Lord reigns from in the thousand year period is not the camp of the saints. I believe after the regeneration of the earth Jerusalem becomes the home for many of the Lord's saints, and Satan will gather his army to try and destroy this camp but the Lord will destroy Him and his army they will be cast finally into the lake of fire. First Satan then those who are not written in the book of life.
Where exactly do you see this “regeneration of the earth”? Rev 20 doesn’t even mention a reign on earth – regenerated or not regenerated.

Allegra
Dec 21st 2007, 02:02 AM
Allegra,
Interesting you should mention Deut 28 because as I was reading in Jer 11-12 this morning, it seems that Israel was called to hear again the words of this covenant made thru Moses. Deut was pointing to the Babylon Captivity that would occur and Jeremiah reminds them of those words as it is then coming to pass. But at the end in 12:17 he says this in speaking of a time after they are restored to the land:

(Jer 12:16-17 KJV) And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The LORD liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people. {17} But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Which was not meant to distract from our discussion on Rev 12, but I have been focusing on Rev 11.

I think that Rev 11 in speaking of the 2 witnesses (typifying Moses & Elijah) who are preaching the Law & Prophets, are pointing to the end of the Mosaic covenant - when it finally passes away as this judgment that it includes, comes to pass. And upon their death, we then see a picture of the resurrection of the OT saints in their resurrection.

It is then that the 7th trumpet sounds now that the time of the dead has occurred (11:18) and the temple in heaven is opened in preparation of the sending forth of the vials.
Hi Mograce2U,
I was thinking of Deut.28 & "the curses" Israel would suffer for disobedience.
I will try to start a new thread or post on the 2 Witnesses thread tomorrow-as I have more than a dozen presents to wrap tonight!:)
I was only going with the flow of this thread anyway. It would be off topic.
I disagree with the very title of this thread bc it has no scriptural support.

So I hope you're having a good one... it's getting to be Jesus' Birthday!
Cya tomorrow
God Bless.

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 05:06 AM
Where exactly do you see this “regeneration of the earth”? Rev 20 doesn’t even mention a reign on earth – regenerated or not regenerated.

Hi losthorizon,
For Jesus to reign on the earth for one thousand years with the saints He has said He will regenerate the earth.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jeremiah 23:6
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Zechariah 14:9
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

Micah 4:1-3
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

2 Timothy 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.If we deny Him,He also will deny us.

Revelation 5:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-30882a)] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 19:5-7
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”


Revelation 20:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So as I said the Lord regenerates the earth and then He reigns for a literal one thousand years. The Bible says it then I believe what it says. It is not figurative, it is not spiritual, it is literal.

God Bless

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2007, 11:30 AM
Hi losthorizon,
For Jesus to reign on the earth for one thousand years with the saints He has said He will regenerate the earth.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Jeremiah 23:6
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Zechariah 14:9
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

Micah 4:1-3
1 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

1 Corinthians 15:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

2 Timothy 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.If we deny Him,He also will deny us.

Revelation 5:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context#fen-NKJV-30882a)] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 19:5-7
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!”
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”


Revelation 20:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=20&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So as I said the Lord regenerates the earth and then He reigns for a literal one thousand years. The Bible says it then I believe what it says. It is not figurative, it is not spiritual, it is literal.

God Bless


It is witten that Gods throne is in heaven, and it is there that he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, And have washed their robes, And made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, And he will dwell with them, And they shall be his people, And God himself shall be with them, And be their God.

Allegra
Dec 21st 2007, 06:57 PM
I am just assuming that you are using the above verse to match Zech 8:23, if so I must say they are entirely different. In Zech 8:23 the ten men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew in ark the woman only touched the Lord's clothes for healing it does not say she was led to God or anything else to that affect.Taking verses out of context leads to misguided interpretations.
In Zechariah 8, the Title is "Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future" This refers to the Spiritual Jerusalem. And what "Jewish man is being spoken about in 8:23? Notice in 8:12 the prophet speaking about the Remnant, the Seed. Notice in 8:3c what the Lord of hosts says- "The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain." God is not speaking about physical Jerusalem's "mountain." How do I know?
Well, continue with Zechariah. Zech 9:9 "The Coming King."9:11 God Will Save His People. Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Return to the stronghold, You prisoners of hope. OK, are you understanding so far, that God was referring to the righteous Jewish man(remnant) in 8:23?
Let's go on. 10:1 Ask the Lord for the latter rain.
Zechariah 11. "The Desolation of Israel." This will be both physical destruction of the wicked blasphemers of Israel, along with the Old dispensation & covenant. The righteous remnant of Israel would see salvation, & fulfillment of God's promises to Israel (The True Olive tree that is true Israel) As in chapter 12, "The Coming Deliverance of Judah" (Judah is named here bc these were the one's in Zech's day coming from Babylonian captivity)
Zech 13,"Idolatry Cut Off" "In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and uncleanliness." We are still referring to Jewish people here, in Zechariah.(This is approx. 500-450 BC) Judgment would be on the wicked Jews after the Messiah had come "And His own received Him not"
Zech.14, "The Day of the Lord"
Ever notice how as in Malachi "The Day of the Lord" (bc for the Jews it would split the righteous remnant from the wicked Jews) In Mal. the Day of the Lord is referred to as "that great and dreadful day of the Lord(Mal 4:5)-
While the Apostles refer to that day as "the great and GLORIOUS Day of the Lord?" Sela(think about that)
Zechariah 14:16," The Nations Worship the King."
The nations would be judged, those throughout history, since Christ who do not seek Him in This Life. The Spiritual, New Jerusalem was established with the end of the Old. Here Zech. ends with allegory, as he has throughout his book. Jesus is our Tabernacle. All the Nations Worship the King! (well, we know that's the decree-so all SHOULD Worship the King)
The Tabernacle of His Testimony was opened, & the New Covenant officially began at the 7th Trumpet in Heaven.



Mark 5:28-31
28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”
29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, “Who touched My clothes?”
31 But His disciples said to Him, “You see the multitude thronging You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’” Many times Jesus spoke saying, "your Faith has made you well" So, it is that this poor woman, who broke through the crowds just to touch His garment- that alone shows a demonstration of her faith.



This verse still has nothing to do with the ten men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew. Yes we know Jesus is God for He is apart of the Trinity. But the verse in Zechariah 8 is talking about when the Lord is reigning from Jerusalem itself.I commented on this above. But I disagree with your analogy. Why do you think those Righteous Jews would have the Blessings?- it is in accordance with Christ to come to them in the first advent.
Everyone in Christ has the same promises, the same blessings!(although to each individual, they may look a little different)


[/quote]


As fore Revelation 20 you are saying that Jerusalem which the Lord reigns from in the thousand year period is not the camp of the saints. I believe after the regeneration of the earth Jerusalem becomes the home for many of the Lord's saints, and Satan will gather his army to try and destroy this camp but the Lord will destroy Him and his army they will be cast finally into the lake of fire. First Satan then those who are not written in the book of life.Rev20 never mentions Christ on earth. This you cannot add to the text.
I believe the regeneration of things is spoken to the Apostles for the heavenly realm. And for the time on earth, for anyone, (regeneration) Jesus speaks of "things" This would mean earthly, worldly, fleshy things. In this sense, for us, regeneration is synonymous with "rebirth."

Have a pleasant day,
God Bless

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 10:56 PM
Taking verses out of context leads to misguided interpretations.
In Zechariah 8, the Title is "Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future" This refers to the Spiritual Jerusalem. And what "Jewish man is being spoken about in 8:23? Notice in 8:12 the prophet speaking about the Remnant, the Seed. Notice in 8:3c what the Lord of hosts says- "The Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain." God is not speaking about physical Jerusalem's "mountain." How do I know?
Well, continue with Zechariah. Zech 9:9 "The Coming King."9:11 God Will Save His People. Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Return to the stronghold, You prisoners of hope. OK, are you understanding so far, that God was referring to the righteous Jewish man(remnant) in 8:23?
Let's go on. 10:1 Ask the Lord for the latter rain.
Zechariah 11. "The Desolation of Israel." This will be both physical destruction of the wicked blasphemers of Israel, along with the Old dispensation & covenant. The righteous remnant of Israel would see salvation, & fulfillment of God's promises to Israel (The True Olive tree that is true Israel) As in chapter 12, "The Coming Deliverance of Judah" (Judah is named here bc these were the one's in Zech's day coming from Babylonian captivity)
Zech 13,"Idolatry Cut Off" "In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and uncleanliness." We are still referring to Jewish people here, in Zechariah.(This is approx. 500-450 BC) Judgment would be on the wicked Jews after the Messiah had come "And His own received Him not"
Zech.14, "The Day of the Lord"
Ever notice how as in Malachi "The Day of the Lord" (bc for the Jews it would split the righteous remnant from the wicked Jews) In Mal. the Day of the Lord is referred to as "that great and dreadful day of the Lord(Mal 4:5)-
While the Apostles refer to that day as "the great and GLORIOUS Day of the Lord?" Sela(think about that)
Zechariah 14:16," The Nations Worship the King."
The nations would be judged, those throughout history, since Christ who do not seek Him in This Life. The Spiritual, New Jerusalem was established with the end of the Old. Here Zech. ends with allegory, as he has throughout his book. Jesus is our Tabernacle. All the Nations Worship the King! (well, we know that's the decree-so all SHOULD Worship the King)
The Tabernacle of His Testimony was opened, & the New Covenant officially began at the 7th Trumpet in Heaven.


Many times Jesus spoke saying, "your Faith has made you well" So, it is that this poor woman, who broke through the crowds just to touch His garment- that alone shows a demonstration of her faith.


I commented on this above. But I disagree with your analogy. Why do you think those Righteous Jews would have the Blessings?- it is in accordance with Christ to come to them in the first advent.
Everyone in Christ has the same promises, the same blessings!(although to each individual, they may look a little different)




Rev20 never mentions Christ on earth. This you cannot add to the text.
I believe the regeneration of things is spoken to the Apostles for the heavenly realm. And for the time on earth, for anyone, (regeneration) Jesus speaks of "things" This would mean earthly, worldly, fleshy things. In this sense, for us, regeneration is synonymous with "rebirth."

Have a pleasant day,
God Bless[/quote]

I will just have to strongly disagree with you at this point of time.

Allegra
Dec 21st 2007, 11:20 PM
Rev20 never mentions Christ on earth. This you cannot add to the text.
I believe the regeneration of things is spoken to the Apostles for the heavenly realm. And for the time on earth, for anyone, (regeneration) Jesus speaks of "things" This would mean earthly, worldly, fleshy things. In this sense, for us, regeneration is synonymous with "rebirth."

Have a pleasant day,
God Bless

I will just have to strongly disagree with you at this point of time.[/quote]
No problem. Have a blessed & merry Christmas!

"A child, a child, shivers in the night"
He will bring us goodness and L I G H T!" :amen:

He will bring us g o o d n e s s .... and light!

losthorizon
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:07 AM
Hi losthorizon,
For Jesus to reign on the earth for one thousand years with the saints He has said He will regenerate the earth.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Hi Dizzy – thanks for your explanation but the "Times of the regeneration" refers to this present “church age” and not some literal return of Jesus to the earth to usher in a restored Jewish kingdom in Palestine. Men and women today who hear and obey the gospel of grace are those who are regenerated; i.e., “born again” (born from above) per John 3:3.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".Christ reigns today as He “sits on the throne of His glory” and “the Twelve” sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (the Israel of God) today. The reign of Christ will proceed until “all enemies have been put under foot” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). And then the end comes when death, our last enemy, is destroyed. At that time, Christ will "deliver up the kingdom to the Father" – He will not initiate a revived Jewish kingdom for 1000 years on this earth. God bless. :)

Allegra
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:38 AM
Hi Dizzy – thanks for your explanation but the "Times of the regeneration" refers to this present “church age” and not some literal return of Jesus to the earth to usher in a restored Jewish kingdom in Palestine. Men and women today who hear and obey the gospel of grace are those who are regenerated; i.e., “born again” (born from above) per John 3:3.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".Christ reigns today as He “sits on the throne of His glory” and “the Twelve” sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (the Israel of God) today. [quote]The reign of Christ will proceed until “all enemies have been put under foot” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). And then the end comes when death, our last enemy, is destroyed. At that time, Christ will "deliver up the kingdom to the Father" – He will not initiate a revived Jewish kingdom for 1000 years on this earth. God bless. :)I agree with everything on your post here, except this last highlighted statement.
Just bc I believe Christ delivered up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age/the Jewish dispensation, does not mean that He has lost all rule over us. He is at the right hand of the Father & co-rules. Just as with Jesus' ascension & "going to the Father" to be glorified, He also rejoiced that from that position He would perform His New Covenant ministry of giving eternal life to men.(John17:1-5)
The apostle Paul said in Romans 16:20- 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. John 16:11 informs that Satan has now been judged. Hebrews 2:14 says Satan had the power of death. And just before Paul's death he says in 2Tim1:10 that death has been abolished.
I believe the millennium ended when the Old covenant age ended in 70AD.
It began with Jesus' ministry on earth. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.
Satan had the power of death. Spiritual death. Everyone agrees that Christians have eternal life. But we still must die physically once, to get our glorified bodies.
Satan was loosed for his "little while" from 67-70.5AD.
The Fire coming down from heaven is a prophetic symbol.
In Sodom's case it was the literal fiery destruction out of the sky(either thunderbolts or flaming sulfuric meteors) In Elijah's case, fire licked up the whole altar & sacrifice in front of the Baal prophets. At Sinai, fire came down visibly upon Mt. Sinai. In Jerusalem's case, it was the fiery tar pitch-laden missiles & ballistics that the besieging armies hurled at her to destroy her gates & walls with fire.

Also, Peter said in 2Peter3:5-7 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
OK, plain language. Not quite. When God brought the flood, He did not destroy the foundation of the earth-just the wicked therein.
Also, according to my book of prophetic symbols, Heaven & Earth is symbolic. Heaven & earth, the whole universe, political or religious. Heaven is always the symbol of government, the higher places in the political universe. "Heaven & earth will pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35)
Here the Jewish power is represented as heaven & earth, & the symbol denoted its passing away. "For truly I say to you, until heaven & earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished.
I rest my case.
Good night & God bless.:sleeping:

losthorizon
Dec 22nd 2007, 02:12 PM
...I agree with everything on your post here, except this last highlighted statement.
Just bc I believe Christ delivered up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age/the Jewish dispensation, does not mean that He has lost all rule over us. He is at the right hand of the Father & co-rules. Just as with Jesus' ascension & "going to the Father" to be glorified, He also rejoiced that from that position He would perform His New Covenant ministry of giving eternal life to men.(John17:1-5)
The apostle Paul said in Romans 16:20- 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. John 16:11 informs that Satan has now been judged. Hebrews 2:14 says Satan had the power of death. And just before Paul's death he says in 2Tim1:10 that death has been abolished.
I believe the millennium ended when the Old covenant age ended in 70AD.

Hi Allegra – please allow me to clarify my position as you may be misunderstanding my full position. The “millennium” certainly did not end in AD 70 and the “kingdom of God” was not handed up to God at the “end of the age/the Jewish dispensation”. His kingdom exists on earth today just as it did in the first century. Those today that repent and “obey from the heart” the gospel of grace are added to that kingdom by the Lord.

We are currently in the “millennial reign” presented in Rev 20; i.e., that period of time is not a literal 1000 years as our premillennial friends believe – rather, it is a long period of time that is often referred to as the “church age”. This age started when the Christ ascended into heaven and was seated on the spiritual “throne of David” where He reigns today as “King of kings and Lord of lords” “by the right hand of God”. This kingdom will exist on earth until He comes the second time and then He will deliver up the kingdom to the Father. The “kingdom of God” has existed since “the time [was] fulfilled” in the first century when it came “with power” on the Day of Pentecost. On that historic day over 3000 souls repented and believe in the gospel and were added to His kingdom. :)
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9:1)

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6-7

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:07 PM
Hi Allegra – please allow me to clarify my position as you may be misunderstanding my full position. The “millennium” certainly did not end in AD 70 and the “kingdom of God” was not handed up to God at the “end of the age/the Jewish dispensation”. His kingdom exists on earth today just as it did in the first century. Those today that repent and “obey from the heart” the gospel of grace are added to that kingdom by the Lord.


We are currently in the “millennial reign” presented in Rev 20; i.e., that period of time is not a literal 1000 years as our premillennial friends believe – rather, it is a long period of time that is often referred to as the “church age”. This age started when the Christ ascended into heaven and was seated on the spiritual “throne of David” where He reigns today as “King of kings and Lord of lords” “by the right hand of God”. This kingdom will exist on earth until He comes the second time and then He will deliver up the kingdom to the Father. The “kingdom of God” has existed since “the time [was] fulfilled” in the first century when it came “with power” on the Day of Pentecost. On that historic day over 3000 souls repented and believe in the gospel and were added to His kingdom. :)
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)



Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9:1)



For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6-7

With regards to what is presented in Revelation 20. satan was bound in the bottomless pit at the same time as the beginning of the millenium.

Rev 20:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

How does the beast that kills the saints come to power since he gets his power from satan?

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, And his feet were as the feet of a bear, And his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, And his seat, And great authority.

Mograce2U
Dec 22nd 2007, 05:46 PM
I think the confusion we are having is in seeing the context clearly as it concerns different groups/ times.

Way back in the Garden when Satan appeared as a serpent may be an allusion as to when Satan and his devils were kicked out of heaven to dwell in the earth (Ezek 28; and Isa 14 and Ezek 27 both speak about his future imprisonment in the pit.) Yet Satan still retained access to heaven and could accuse men before God (Job, Joshua the hign priest). However, at the cross he lost his access to heaven altogether, yet was permitted to roar about as a lion in the earth for a spell as he persecuted the saints. Which was to fill up the sins of those who had rejected Christ.

Two things were taken from him at the cross: his power over death and his ability to defeat the gospel going forth into the earth by deceiving the nations with his idolatry. He lost both power and authority, yet his binding at the cross did not render him inactive in the lives of those to whom he still retained some rule. It is similar by contrast to how though Paul was bound in Rome, yet the gospel still went forth to accomplish its goal.

Satan, though defeated, still had a use during the 1st century post-cross as the dragon who ruled by the beast (Nero), until that beast was brought down. He still has his pockets in the earth even now, but he is ruling blind in a kingdom of darkness and Christ has complete control of him from His rule in heaven.

The demonization of men in the earth who reject God can be seen in modern times in the likes of men like Hitler. But they are only allowed a season to wreck havoc in the earth and none have succeeded in world dominance - though many try. The Islamic nations will not succeed in their terrorization either. But what the devil & his servants will accomplish, is to divide those men who are the enemies of God from those who serve the Lord. And we can expect to see an increase in such peoples as the end draws near and Satan is given a freer reign to deceive them. Those who succumb to the darkness will stand in great contrast to those who have the light of Christ, making their destiny of judgment just as secure as our salvation is in Christ.

This has been the pattern throughout scripture as the wicked are brought into the fullness of their wickedness so that judgment can come upon them. This is the fire that has yet to fall upon the earthly kingdoms of Satan who come against the saints enmasse near the end. What we are seeing in these times is that the whole world which lies in wickedness is being ripened for this judgment. And it will no doubt get a lot worse before the end comes, because it is the whole world that will be included in this judgment.

But what that time will look like is more related to the spiritual state of the world, of which wars and such are only one symptom. I expect the 4 sore judgments of Ezekiel will be the visible signs in the earth. Is not AIDS a pestilence without cure - to which whole nations have succumbed? Or SARS? Drought and famine and blight? Is it a coincidence that the people who live in greatest darkness also live in desert lands (Islam)? China, India, Africa are fraught with catastrophic problems concerning plagues from disease.

But on the spiritual side, is not greed and covetousness the rule of the day? Even the churches are infected by it. The New Age of "enlightenment" couldn't be more dark could it? The liberal socialists are working hard at destroying the USA and all she has stood for. Imploding from within is a real possiblity as to what could be our demise in this country. Who is standing for true righteousness in the earth today? The answer: very, very few. And those who are, are a stink to the rest of the world.

(2 Cor 2:14-16 KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. {15} For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: {16} To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

So how can the 1,000 years be over when it seems that Satan is once again on the loose? In a time when the body of Christ is lulling itself to sleep with visions of Antichrist and cannot see the beast that is in their midst; Satan is running to and fro in the earth gathering Magog to his side. If the end is near - then this is how it will be, and it is time for us to fill our lamps with oil so they can burn brightly is this world growing darker by the minute.

(Isa 58:6-11 KJV) Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? {7} Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? {8} Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. {9} Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; {10} And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: {11} And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

(Rev 21:6-7 KJV) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. {7} He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

(Mat 10:42 KJV) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Allegra
Dec 22nd 2007, 06:41 PM
Hi Allegra – please allow me to clarify my position as you may be misunderstanding my full position. The “millennium” certainly did not end in AD 70 and the “kingdom of God” was not handed up to God at the “end of the age/the Jewish dispensation”. His kingdom exists on earth today just as it did in the first century. Those today that repent and “obey from the heart” the gospel of grace are added to that kingdom by the Lord. Hi LH, I accidentally erased my post, but will try again to explain the Kingdom of God. First, we can agree that the Kingdom of God is Spiritual, correct? The Kingdom of God is within you, right? We do not experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God until the afterlife.
How can Jesus hand up the kingdom of God to God?
Jesus came to establish His kingdom through His earthly ministry.

The Kingdom of God is already present upon faith in Christ.
Acts 19:8 8 And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.
Rom 14:15-18 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans14:15-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-28293a)]is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Now let's distinguish the Kingdom of God & Christ's Kingdom.
Christ's Kingdom:
Rev. 1:9 9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:17 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Reigning with Christ by faith, in this life on earth:
Romans 6:13-14 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Eph 2:4-6 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Much more, which Christians are familiar with. Not boring, God forbid, but I need to go now, & also to make a point.

Saints Reigning with Christ in Glory:
Matt 19:28 28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:28-30 28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
1Cor 6:2-3 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
Rev.2:26-27 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%202:26-27;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-30739a)]—

as I also have received from My Father;
Footnotes:
Revelation 2:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%202:26-27;&version=50;#en-NKJV-30739) Psalm 2:96Rev 3:21 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev.20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020:4;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-31037a)] thousand years.


We are currently in the “millennial reign” presented in Rev 20; i.e., that period of time is not a literal 1000 years as our premillennial friends believe – rather, it is a long period of time that is often referred to as the “church age”. This age started when the Christ ascended into heaven and was seated on the spiritual “throne of David” where He reigns today as “King of kings and Lord of lords” “by the right hand of God”. This kingdom will exist on earth until He comes the second time and then He will deliver up the kingdom to the Father. The “kingdom of God” has existed since “the time [was] fulfilled” in the first century when it came “with power” on the Day of Pentecost. On that historic day over 3000 souls repented and believe in the gospel and were added to His kingdom. :)I agree with you that the "thousand yrs." is not literal. But I believe the 1k yrs. ended with the end of the age "the Jewish dispensation"
I opined on Christ handing up the kingdom above.

Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand ; repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. (Mark 9:1)I agree that "the Kingdom of God was at hand"


For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isa 9:6-7OK. This goes hand & hand with Christ establishing His kingdom on earth.
:)

losthorizon
Dec 22nd 2007, 09:03 PM
Hi LH, I accidentally erased my post, but will try again to explain the Kingdom of God. First, we can agree that the Kingdom of God is Spiritual, correct? The Kingdom of God is within you, right? We do not experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God until the afterlife.
How can Jesus hand up the kingdom of God to God?
Jesus came to establish His kingdom through His earthly ministry.


Thanks for the additional clarification, Allegra. The concept of God’s “kingdom” in the New Testament is – in the most part - synonymous with the “church” – the church that Jesus came to establish. In Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus uses the terms church and kingdom interchangeably - “I will build my church....I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom”. He also told his disciples the day was quickly approaching when they would “eat and drink at my table in my kingdom” – this He said in reference to the institution and observance of the “Lord’s Supper” given to His faithful church (His kingdom on earth) and the church was to observe this ordinance “in remembrance of me”.
... The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in rememberance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in rememberance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1 Cor 11 : 23-26)I will agree with you that “we do not experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God until the afterlife” but that does not negate the fact that His kingdom is present today in the form of the church of God – His body on earth. It is this church - this kingdom of God - that will be handed up to God when “cometh the end”. In its ultimate (final) expression “the kingdom” refers to the eternal dwelling place of God’s people.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

Allegra
Dec 22nd 2007, 10:16 PM
Thanks for the additional clarification, Allegra. The concept of God’s “kingdom” in the New Testament is – in the most part - synonymous with the “church” – the church that Jesus came to establish. In Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus uses the terms church and kingdom interchangeably - “I will build my church....I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom”. He also told his disciples the day was quickly approaching when they would “eat and drink at my table in my kingdom” – this He said in reference to the institution and observance of the “Lord’s Supper” given to His faithful church (His kingdom on earth) and the church was to observe this ordinance “in remembrance of me”.
... The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in rememberance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in rememberance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1 Cor 11 : 23-26)I will agree with you that “we do not experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God until the afterlife” but that does not negate the fact that His kingdom is present today in the form of the church of God – His body on earth. It is this church - this kingdom of God - that will be handed up to God when “cometh the end”. In its ultimate (final) expression “the kingdom” refers to the eternal dwelling place of God’s people.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Corinthians 15:24)
That sounds alright LH, after all, you are a partial-preterist.
But I use the "whole chapter" of 1Cor 15. This way too,I can recognize how Satan doesn't have the power of Spiritual death any longer.(which I thought you would agree with)
1Cor15:20-28
The Last Enemy Destroyed


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2015:20-28&version=50#fen-NKJV-28740a)] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 15:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2015:20-28&version=50#en-NKJV-28740) Psalm 8:6I understand your position. And now you may understand mine. :idea:
Take care,
ALLEGRA.

Allegra
Dec 23rd 2007, 01:18 AM
Thanks for the additional clarification, Allegra. The concept of God’s “kingdom” in the New Testament is – in the most part - synonymous with the “church” – the church that Jesus came to establish. In Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus uses the terms church and kingdom interchangeably - “I will build my church....I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom”. He also told his disciples the day was quickly approaching when they would “eat and drink at my table in my kingdom” – this He said in reference to the institution and observance of the “Lord’s Supper” given to His faithful church (His kingdom on earth) and the church was to observe this ordinance “in remembrance of me”.
... The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in rememberance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in rememberance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. (1 Cor 11 : 23-26)I will agree with you that “we do not experience the fullness of the Kingdom of God until the afterlife” but that does not negate the fact that His kingdom is present today in the form of the church of God – His body on earth. It is this church - this kingdom of God - that will be handed up to God when “cometh the end”. In its ultimate (final) expression “the kingdom” refers to the eternal dwelling place of God’s people.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Corinthians 15:24)
One other thing I forgot to mention LH,
I do not believe the Church age has an end. I believe the old Jewish dispensation had an end. But from what I have studied, I do not see the end of human history prophesied in the Bible.
Whether this world continues till 2050 or 7050 who knows, but the Church age will never end-it will be eternal.
I guess I am just a certified optimist! :spin:

losthorizon
Dec 23rd 2007, 01:58 AM
One other thing I forgot to mention LH,
I do not believe the Church age has an end. I believe the old Jewish dispensation had an end. But from what I have studied, I do not see the end of human history prophesied in the Bible.
Whether this world continues till 2050 or 7050 who knows, but the Church age will never end-it will be eternal.
I guess I am just a certified optimist! :spin:
Allegra, all earthly "time-dispensations" will have an end - when “Time Shall Be No More”. The current “Church Age” ends suddenly and without warning with the “Second Coming” of the Lord Jesus Christ at "the end of age": i.e., “at the last trumpet” when “the Lord himself will come down from heaven” to receive His own – then the earth will “pass away” and the “elements will be dissolved with heat” - “and so we will be with the Lord forever” – Amen.
1 Cor. 15:51-53: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

1 Thess. 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Firstfruits
Dec 23rd 2007, 12:11 PM
I think the confusion we are having is in seeing the context clearly as it concerns different groups/ times.

Way back in the Garden when Satan appeared as a serpent may be an allusion as to when Satan and his devils were kicked out of heaven to dwell in the earth (Ezek 28; and Isa 14 and Ezek 27 both speak about his future imprisonment in the pit.) Yet Satan still retained access to heaven and could accuse men before God (Job, Joshua the hign priest). However, at the cross he lost his access to heaven altogether, yet was permitted to roar about as a lion in the earth for a spell as he persecuted the saints. Which was to fill up the sins of those who had rejected Christ.

Two things were taken from him at the cross: his power over death and his ability to defeat the gospel going forth into the earth by deceiving the nations with his idolatry. He lost both power and authority, yet his binding at the cross did not render him inactive in the lives of those to whom he still retained some rule. It is similar by contrast to how though Paul was bound in Rome, yet the gospel still went forth to accomplish its goal.

Satan, though defeated, still had a use during the 1st century post-cross as the dragon who ruled by the beast (Nero), until that beast was brought down. He still has his pockets in the earth even now, but he is ruling blind in a kingdom of darkness and Christ has complete control of him from His rule in heaven.

The demonization of men in the earth who reject God can be seen in modern times in the likes of men like Hitler. But they are only allowed a season to wreck havoc in the earth and none have succeeded in world dominance - though many try. The Islamic nations will not succeed in their terrorization either. But what the devil & his servants will accomplish, is to divide those men who are the enemies of God from those who serve the Lord. And we can expect to see an increase in such peoples as the end draws near and Satan is given a freer reign to deceive them. Those who succumb to the darkness will stand in great contrast to those who have the light of Christ, making their destiny of judgment just as secure as our salvation is in Christ.

This has been the pattern throughout scripture as the wicked are brought into the fullness of their wickedness so that judgment can come upon them. This is the fire that has yet to fall upon the earthly kingdoms of Satan who come against the saints enmasse near the end. What we are seeing in these times is that the whole world which lies in wickedness is being ripened for this judgment. And it will no doubt get a lot worse before the end comes, because it is the whole world that will be included in this judgment.

But what that time will look like is more related to the spiritual state of the world, of which wars and such are only one symptom. I expect the 4 sore judgments of Ezekiel will be the visible signs in the earth. Is not AIDS a pestilence without cure - to which whole nations have succumbed? Or SARS? Drought and famine and blight? Is it a coincidence that the people who live in greatest darkness also live in desert lands (Islam)? China, India, Africa are fraught with catastrophic problems concerning plagues from disease.

But on the spiritual side, is not greed and covetousness the rule of the day? Even the churches are infected by it. The New Age of "enlightenment" couldn't be more dark could it? The liberal socialists are working hard at destroying the USA and all she has stood for. Imploding from within is a real possiblity as to what could be our demise in this country. Who is standing for true righteousness in the earth today? The answer: very, very few. And those who are, are a stink to the rest of the world.

(2 Cor 2:14-16 KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. {15} For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: {16} To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

So how can the 1,000 years be over when it seems that Satan is once again on the loose? In a time when the body of Christ is lulling itself to sleep with visions of Antichrist and cannot see the beast that is in their midst; Satan is running to and fro in the earth gathering Magog to his side. If the end is near - then this is how it will be, and it is time for us to fill our lamps with oil so they can burn brightly is this world growing darker by the minute.

(Isa 58:6-11 KJV) Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? {7} Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? {8} Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. {9} Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; {10} And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: {11} And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

(Rev 21:6-7 KJV) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. {7} He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

(Rev 22:1 KJV) And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

(Mat 10:42 KJV) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

I have read what you have said, but how does that apply to my question?

How does the beast that kills the saints come to power since he gets his power from satan?

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, And his feet were as the feet of a bear, And his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, And his seat, And great authority.

This dragon does not appear to be bound, and not able to deceive.

Mograce2U
Dec 23rd 2007, 06:11 PM
I have read what you have said, but how does that apply to my question?

How does the beast that kills the saints come to power since he gets his power from satan?

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, And his feet were as the feet of a bear, And his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, And his seat, And great authority.

This dragon does not appear to be bound, and not able to deceive.That's because this beast that rises from the ashes of Greece has already come and gone and done what he was prophesied to do in the 1st century.

Firstfruits
Dec 23rd 2007, 08:09 PM
That's because this beast that rises from the ashes of Greece has already come and gone and done what he was prophesied to do in the 1st century.

With the understanding that Gods wrath is poured out on them that worship the beast, when was the fifth vial poured out on the beasts kingdom and those that worshiped him?

What has happened to the 144,000 that are sealed before God pours out his wrath?

Has the following happened, since it happens to the beast and his kingdom?
Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, And blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: And they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; And his kingdom was full of darkness; And they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains And their sores, And repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Who is the beast since he must have been revealed if he reigned in the 1st century?

Mograce2U
Dec 23rd 2007, 08:53 PM
With the understanding that Gods wrath is poured out on them that worship the beast, when was the fifth vial poured out on the beasts kingdom and those that worshiped him?

What has happened to the 144,000 that are sealed before God pours out his wrath?

Has the following happened, since it happens to the beast and his kingdom?
Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, And blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: And they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; And his kingdom was full of darkness; And they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains And their sores, And repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Who is the beast since he must have been revealed if he reigned in the 1st century?This is typical OT language of judgment. See Ps 18 and 78 especially where these things are likened to sending evil angels among them.

Firstfruits
Dec 23rd 2007, 09:03 PM
This is typical OT language of judgment. See Ps 18 and 78 especially where these things are likened to sending evil angels among them.

These things happen to the beast and his kingdom, which you say was in the 1st century.
Has the following happened, since it happens to the beast and his kingdom?
Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, And blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: And they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; And his kingdom was full of darkness; And they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains And their sores, And repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Who is the beast since he must have been revealed if he reigned in the 1st century?

Allegra
Dec 27th 2007, 01:17 AM
These things happen to the beast and his kingdom, which you say was in the 1st century.
Has the following happened, since it happens to the beast and his kingdom?
Rev 16:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And men were scorched with great heat, And blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: And they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; And his kingdom was full of darkness; And they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains And their sores, And repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Who is the beast since he must have been revealed if he reigned in the 1st century?
The 5th vial(Rev.16:10-11) corresponds with the 5th trumpet. It is poured out on the throne of the beast, which seems to be identical with the "abyss" of the trumpet vision. The abyss is the region from which the beast is said to ascend(chap.11:7); and that this was the name given to the abode of evil spirits, appears from the fact that the demons cast out of the possessed Gadarane besought Jesus "that He would not command them to go away into the abyss' (Luke 8:31)
The seat of the beast, therefore, is the same as the abyss,- the kingdom of the power of darkness.

Allegra
Dec 27th 2007, 01:43 AM
I have read what you have said, but how does that apply to my question?

How does the beast that kills the saints come to power since he gets his power from satan?

Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, And his feet were as the feet of a bear, And his mouth as the mouth of a lion: And the dragon gave him his power, And his seat, And great authority.

This dragon does not appear to be bound, and not able to deceive.
First , let me clear up any confusion about the first(although not as critical) words to describe this beast. Unto a leopard, feet like a bear, mouth of a lion.
These other kingdoms have nothing to do with Daniel's(Dan.7) 3 other kingdoms. Leopard-
Alexander (within 11 yrs. he ruled the world) Bear- Medio-Persia, Lion, Nebuchadnezzar. These phrases are used to show that the vision of the beast of in Rev13:2 unites all the characteristics of all the beasts seen by Daniel (chap.7)
The beast coming out of the sea- If you notice at the end of Rev.12, the dragon was unsuccessful in his attempt to destroy the woman & her seed, so he stationed himself on the sands of the sea, looking out for a potent auxiliary enlisted in his service.
It doesn't take long, the beast's duration of power will be for 42 months.

The Dragon is not bound at this time- he is/was definitely able to deceive!
(But remember, not the elect)

Firstfruits
Dec 29th 2007, 04:00 PM
First , let me clear up any confusion about the first(although not as critical) words to describe this beast. Unto a leopard, feet like a bear, mouth of a lion.
These other kingdoms have nothing to do with Daniel's(Dan.7) 3 other kingdoms. Leopard-
Alexander (within 11 yrs. he ruled the world) Bear- Medio-Persia, Lion, Nebuchadnezzar. These phrases are used to show that the vision of the beast of in Rev13:2 unites all the characteristics of all the beasts seen by Daniel (chap.7)
The beast coming out of the sea- If you notice at the end of Rev.12, the dragon was unsuccessful in his attempt to destroy the woman & her seed, so he stationed himself on the sands of the sea, looking out for a potent auxiliary enlisted in his service.
It doesn't take long, the beast's duration of power will be for 42 months.

The Dragon is not bound at this time- he is/was definitely able to deceive!
(But remember, not the elect)


The first beast in revelation 13:1-8 is the same as daniel 7:21
Dan 7:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Rev 13:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Beast two
Rev 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.