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A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:08 PM
No real verses here, but a bit of info that just popped in my head... My moms old friend Emily told my mom this years ago. (This is the woman that said I was annoited from the womb.)

http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/SantaClause.html

A piece taken from the info.

SANTA IS COMING SOON
During the Christmas season it is emphasized over and over that "Santa is coming".
JESUS CHRIST IS COMING SOON
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Rev. 22:20)

SANTA IS OMNISCIENT
Children are taught that Santa "knows when you've been good, and he knows when you've been bad".
JESUS CHRIST IS OMNISCIENT
"The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good." (Pro. 15:3) "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?" (Mat. 9:4)

jeffreys
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:15 PM
What are you driving at here, Scott?

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:18 PM
What are you driving at here, Scott?


Santa is a diversion from the meaning of Christmas.. It's all about the all knowing "Santa Claus"... Satan has his claws in children when they're young.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:19 PM
The problem with Santa Clause is that he's a lie. I've never understood parents who say, "Oh, well it's just make believe."

No, it's not make believe to the kids. It might be make believe to the parents, but kids believe it's real. Therefore, parents are deceiving their children into believing something is real when, in fact, the entire thing is made up. How are you going to teach your kids to live for God and have faith in Him when you're teaching them to believe in some fictitious character that has God-like qualities, only to one day reveal to them that you weren't telling them the truth the entire time. Not only would it make them lose faith in the people who were supposed to lead them into truth, but it will in some ways make them doubt everything they've been taught in regards to faith.

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:30 PM
The problem with Santa Clause is that he's a lie. I've never understood parents who say, "Oh, well it's just make believe."

No, it's not make believe to the kids. It might be make believe to the parents, but kids believe it's real. Therefore, parents are deceiving their children into believing something is real when, in fact, the entire thing is made up. How are you going to teach your kids to live for God and have faith in Him when you're teaching them to believe in some fictitious character that has God-like qualities, only to one day reveal to them that you weren't telling them the truth the entire time. Not only would it make them lose faith in the people who were supposed to lead them into truth, but it will in some ways make them doubt everything they've been taught in regards to faith.


I believed in the Easter bunny, Satana Claus and the tooth fairy... Yes the major 3... but when I was young I was an investigator... I'd write these characters letters and ask them to leave evidence of themselves. Haha, I asked Santa to leave somethin' from his sled, I got bells. I asked the tooth fairy to leave part of her dress or sumthin of that sort, and the easter bunny I would investigate the basket for "made in China" or price stickers... I found out they were all fake by seeing santas bells at a hobby store with my mom, the tooth fairy I don't think ever left evidence and eventually I think I found my teeth my mom kept in letters in the house and I found the price tag on the bunny basket and it was in the vehicle which my parents forgot to bring in... Don't try to fool me when I was 5.. I find out things... lol

ColeS
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:31 PM
When I found out that Santa was not real it did not make me lose faith in people, it also never made me doubt everything I had been taught in regards to my faith, nor have I ever heard someone make such a comment.

I can understand Scott saying it is a diversion from the real meaning, but definitely not to people which believe.

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:34 PM
When I found out that Santa was not real it did not make me lose faith in people, it also never made me doubt everything I had been taught in regards to my faith, nor have I ever heard someone make such a comment.

I can understand Scott saying it is a diversion from the real meaning, but definitely not to people which believe.


I believe it draws attention away from big guns upstairs... I remember one early morning I went outside with my parents and I saw the most beautiful star, it was huge in the sky... It was so bright and I believe it was a spiritual experience. :)

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:34 PM
When I found out that Santa was not real it did not make me lose faith in people, it also never made me doubt everything I had been taught in regards to my faith, nor have I ever heard someone make such a comment.

I can understand Scott saying it is a diversion from the real meaning, but definitely not to people which believe.

Just because it didn't affect you doesn't mean it doesn't affect others. There have been countless kids break down crying when they found out Santa wasn't real. It has a big affect on many kids and it just isn't right to lie to them.

ColeS
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:38 PM
I've never heard anyone tell me they felt that way either. I just think it's a little over the top to say that kids finding out Santa Claus isn't real has such a dramatic affect on their lives. Yeah, they may cry for that day, but their lives? Really? I am yet to hear of anything like that.

Brother Mark
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:40 PM
I find it hard to justify lying about Santa Clause. But I don't see the evil in the character that many do.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:45 PM
I've never heard anyone tell me they felt that way either. I just think it's a little over the top to say that kids finding out Santa Claus isn't real has such a dramatic affect on their lives. Yeah, they may cry for that day, but their lives? Really? I am yet to hear of anything like that.

Whether you heard about it or not . . .

Whether you agree it is tramatic or not . . .

It is still a lie and shouldn't be done no matter how much parents want to water down that lie and call it "make believe".

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:54 PM
Whether you heard about it or not . . .

Whether you agree it is tramatic or not . . .

It is still a lie and shouldn't be done no matter how much parents want to water down that lie and call it "make believe".


Well then fairytails could be up for that as well... But I am saying, just tell kids about Jesus a bit.. Don't over dose them, cause I know a lot of kids that had strict christ following parents.. The kid I knew from bible school about 4 years ago is now into drugs, drinking, terrible language and actions.. He's a bit lost now because they overdosed him in Christ... Forcing him to do stuff at church and all sorts of things like that...

ColeS
Nov 23rd 2007, 07:57 PM
I'll just say I concur with Brother Mark on this.

I didn't mean to spark up any debate, sorry.

ColeS
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:00 PM
Well then fairytails could be up for that as well... But I am saying, just tell kids about Jesus a bit.. Don't over dose them, cause I know a lot of kids that had strict christ following parents.. The kid I knew from bible school about 4 years ago is now into drugs, drinking, terrible language and actions.. He's a bit lost now because they overdosed him in Christ... Forcing him to do stuff at church and all sorts of things like that...

The really sad thing is that there are TONS of kids that come out of homes like that.

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:07 PM
Well then fairytails could be up for that as well...


How so? If you're reading a book to your kid and they know it's make believe there is really no issue there. The lie comes when you start telling your kids that it's real.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:24 PM
The American version of the Santa Claus figure received its inspiration and its name from the Dutch legend of Sinter Klaas, brought by settlers to New York in the 17th century.
As early as 1773 the name appeared in the American press as "St. A Claus," but it was the popular author Washington Irving who gave Americans their first detailed information about the Dutch version of Saint Nicholas. In his History of New York, published in 1809 under the pseudonym Diedrich Knickerbocker, Irving described the arrival of the saint on horseback (unaccompanied by Black Peter) each Eve of Saint Nicholas. http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/images/nast2a.jpgThis Dutch-American Saint Nick achieved his fully Americanized form in 1823 in the poem A Visit From Saint Nicholas more commonly known as The Night Before Christmas by writer Clement Clarke Moore. Moore included such details as the names of the reindeer; Santa Claus's laughs, winks, and nods; and the method by which Saint Nicholas, referred to as an elf, returns up the chimney. (Moore's phrase "lays his finger aside of his nose" was drawn directly from Irving's 1809 description
http://www.the-north-pole.com/history/index.htm



The "santa" we have today is a cultural phenomena much like the "Smiley Face"

I would be interested in finding the traditonal point where the "notion" that could see and watch all the children's behavior year round actually "arrived"..I haven't been able to pin that down..

It was IMHO something used by society to try to evoke positive character attributes in terms of "behaving" in a noble and more pure motive of spirit of charity and love towards others which is an admirable 'spirit' which imbues Christian values..

But it appears once the concept was taken farther along in cultural history it simply "morphed" into a commercial product of sorts..
I've seen children terribly traumatized by learning "Santa" is not real in the sense of the connection they made to this character..as their "hero" who would always be there if they just "hoped" in his abilites to right wrongs.

So IMHO, if there is a finger to point at anyone..its not the positive concepts of some of this but that there was a need present that was not met by putting these "hopes" into a figure that never existed..and not foresseing the consequences of this betrayal to the hearts of little ones who did not have parents or someone apply this in terms of a "faith formation"..similar to explaining other concepts like death..or evil to little ones who have no vocabulary for such things..

Christ certainly taught the relevence and responsibilites were with those who had this charge... and essentially that it was a responsibility for the children..

The problem is presenting itself not in the fact that "santa" as a presence is stealing this opportunity to be taught but that the truth of Christ is not being presented at all in these lessons. Kindness, charity, the giving of gifts is not wrong but whenit stands alone without the relational realities of Christ as the heart of these teachings..for children anyway's ..when the teacher is revealed to be a fantasy nor exists, the lessons can often be "lost" as well because they were associated with a very real and true "relationship".:hug:

Studyin'2Show
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:25 PM
When I found out that Santa was not real it did not make me lose faith in people, it also never made me doubt everything I had been taught in regards to my faith, nor have I ever heard someone make such a comment.

I can understand Scott saying it is a diversion from the real meaning, but definitely not to people which believe.I actually have had friends stop trusting their parents when they found out. My mother never perpetuated the myth. She told me that when I was old enough to ask a question, she felt I was old enough to hear the truth. So, when I asked the question almost every kid asks about how he delivers at midnight EVERYWHERE on earth at the same time, she told me that the character was based on a good man named Nickolaus that gave gifts to children.

Anyway, she also told me to respect other people and not to go around telling other kids there was no Santa because it was up to their parents to tell them. So, I guess I was just more aware of it than most because I remember the time from about 4th or 5th grade on up watching as friend after friend realized that all the stories of magic and all were not true. Most, at least outwardly, made no big deal about it but there were those who expressed shocked that their parents had actually lied to them. Some joked about it but I was always glad that I could be certain that my mother told me the truth and felt bad for them that they might wonder about what else they had lied about. I actually had one friend who still believed in Santa when we graduated from high school! :o She said something had happened when she was young and that she would always believe. :lol:

Personally, for those believers who do celebrate Christmas, I just don't see what the appeal would be for a parent to be even a little dishonest. We want to teach our children by example and what are we teaching them if we act as if it's okay to lie? Shouldn't we be teaching them to tell the truth no matter what? It just doesn't seem to be a godly trade off IMO. I can testify that I didn't miss out on anything because my mother was truthful. She didn't ruin anything for me. In fact, I think it was better to be informed. I still watched Frosty, and Rudolph, and all the holiday stuff so nothing was ruined. I would encourage any parent who is considering what they should do to follow my mother's example. Jesus said the the truth will set us free, wouldn't that mean that lies will bind us? :hmm:

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Nov 23rd 2007, 08:49 PM
What I find most disturbing about Santa Clause is that kids are told things like, "Santa will always bring you toys as long as you believe."

And then the kids find out that they were believing in something that wasn't real to begin with. What kind of message does that send?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 23rd 2007, 09:35 PM
Perhaps the most detrimental aspect of the concept of Santa Claus is that anyone corresponds it as a religious traditon to begin with..as a "figure and cultural icon" we are familiar with..he's a new comer of sorts based originally on the story of traditions of the life of a man called Saint Nicholas was an actual person who, in the first part of the fourth century, was the bishop of Myra, a city near the coast of what is now Turkey.


Political cartoonist Thomas Nast drew a version of St. Nicholas for Harper's Illustrated Weekly nearly forty years later that began to look like our modern Santa Claus.

But it took Coca-Cola to come up with Santa in the bright red suit.

When Coca-Cola first started in the late 1800s, the purpose of the beverage was medicinal. By the 1930, sales were slowing and Coca-Cola needed a new marketing angle. In 1931, Coca-Cola changed its target audience from the adult who needed a quick pick-me-up to the whole family who needed an emotional lift. And thus we have the famous advertisement of Santa in the red suit, bringing cheer and joy to the world with a bottle of Coca-Cola.

This campaign was so successful that Coca-Cola patented the bright red color used for Coca-Cola packaging and Santa's suit. And ever since, when we see that Coca-Cola red, we--consciously or unconsciously--associate the soft drink with Santa and the joy of Christmas. In our consumer world, Santa is portrayed to children as the source and provider of all their material wishes.

So all of this "tradition" was never rooted in a practice of faith aka, "religion" at all

That 'IS the tragedy', here IMHO..that this is the real issue:


Jesus said the the truth will set us free, wouldn't that mean that lies will bind us? :hmm:


Teaching a "belief" as a truth, that is not one AS ONE or having ANY BASIS, in any shape or form "harms"

There is no reason to do this..if someone wants to pay tribute to an individual who did a remarably kind, virtuous thing..nothing is wrong with a positive role model at all..I suspect the original Nicolaus would be horrified with what has "morphed" out of his history and life, and were asked would have directed all of the glory to Christ as his "hero"..that are could be a very wholesome and positive message and/or lesson there for kids. ( and many adults)

But the Big Elf in the red suit..thats all about "quenching" ones desires and thirsts for Coke..nor anything to do with the bible any more than Madonna's version of "Like a Virgin" has anything to do with moral purity..the world is always looking for their God in everything that belongs to the world..and he's always there to be found sadly..will be until Christ remdies the problem of the world, for now it's simply up to us to be part of the remedy He's already prescribed to help heart's look for Him.

The world is in darkness spiritualy..and a bazillion Christmas trees won't turn those lights on..but the Christ that the original St. Nick believed in will..:)..demonizing "Santa" won't accomplish that but sharing the spirit of Christ in how we live like the original Nicholas appeared to try to do this sure will.

A820djd
Nov 23rd 2007, 09:38 PM
Christ wasn't born in December if I remember correctly.. I believe it was actually in October. :hmm:

I<3Jesus
Nov 23rd 2007, 10:08 PM
This site is chock full of kill joys! While I acknowledge that many adults do not understand the true meaning of Christmas, I find no harm in kids believing in Old Saint Nick. When I was a kid I believed in Santa, but I still loved Jesus. I see no conflict of interest if you instill good values in your kids.

I<3Jesus
Nov 23rd 2007, 10:19 PM
And ever since, when we see that Coca-Cola red, we--consciously or unconsciously--associate the soft drink with Santa and the joy of Christmas.

I have never heard of that. When I see a red can of Coke, I think - Ewww, that stuff is terrible (because Pepsi is far superior!).


In our consumer world, Santa is portrayed to children as the source and provider of all their material wishes.Not in my world he is not and he does not have to be that way in your world either. You have control over what, if anything, Santa means in your life.


But the Big Elf in the red suit..thats all about "quenching" ones desires and thirsts for Coke..In your world maybe, but not in mine. I have never associated Santa Claus with Coke or rabid consumerism.


nor anything to do with the bible any more than Madonna's version of "Like a Virgin" has anything to do with moral purity...I cannot even believe you just compared Santa Claus to Madonna. Also, when did Madonna ever claim to be a beacon of morality? Seriously?


the world is always looking for their God in everything that belongs to the world..and he's always there to be found sadly..

I do not know of any secular people who consider Santa to be anyone other than a jolly old man who brings a spirit of good will towards others. I feel bad that you have such a cynical view point.



Will be until Christ remdies the problem of the world, for now it's simply up to us to be part of the remedy He's already prescribed to help heart's look for Him.I'm sure it didn't include vilifying everything that a few select people deem unChristian. Forgive me, but I believe Christ told the disciples that he has many flocks of different folds. If everyone were vanilla this would be an incredibly boring world.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 24th 2007, 01:32 AM
This site is chock full of kill joys! While I acknowledge that many adults do not understand the true meaning of Christmas, I find no harm in kids believing in Old Saint Nick. When I was a kid I believed in Santa, but I still loved Jesus. I see no conflict of interest if you instill good values in your kids.I guess the point isn't really about what a child believes in but is really about what adults are willing to lie about. Do you believe it's good for adults to lie to a child that asks about whether Santa lives in the North Pole or really has flying reindeer or something? Is that what Jesus would do....lie? :hmm: If not advocating lying to children somehow kills your joy, I'm confused. :confused I've already said that I was not lied to and yet I had plenty of joy regarding the holiday. :yes:

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 01:34 AM
I guess the point isn't really about what a child believes in but is really about what adults are willing to lie about. Do you believe it's good for adults to lie to a child that asks about whether Santa lives in the North Pole or really has flying reindeer or something? Is that what Jesus would do....lie? :hmm: If not advocating lying to children somehow kills your joy, I'm confused. :confused I've already said that I was not lied to and yet I had plenty of joy regarding the holiday. :yes:

That about sums it up for me. It's not so much the child is deceived as the adult is lying.

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 01:46 AM
I think it is a harmless fabrication.

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 01:48 AM
I think it is a harmless fabrication.

Of course it can be harmless, when left in fairy tale land. But if we lie about it, is it then harmless?

Mograce2U
Nov 24th 2007, 01:57 AM
That about sums it up for me. It's not so much the child is deceived as the adult is lying.
(Col 3:20-21 KJV) Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. {21} Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Anger is added by the translators. While to provoke certainly includes anger its root also implies strife, debate, contention. Since in its context the topic is children obeying their parents - which is the 5th commandment to which long life is attached; how can one obey a parent who cannot be trusted for truth? To discourage is to dishearten, dismay, encourage wrath. As parents we represent God to our children and training them up in the way they should go is our responsibility. If they do not trust us, why would they obey us? If you lied to them about Santa Claus, why should they believe you about Jesus - who "shares" many of the same attributes we claimed Santa has?

You can't serve God and idols, so why keep the idol alive in the hearts of our children? Rather ought we not tear down the altars and the trappings instead of every false idea that concerns God?

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 01:59 AM
(Col 3:20-21 KJV) Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. {21} Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Anger is added by the translators. While to provoke certainly includes anger its root also implies strife, debate, contention. Since in its context the topic is children obeying their parents - which is the 5th commandment to which long life is attached; how can one obey a parent who cannot be trusted for truth? To discourage is to dishearten, dismay, encourage wrath. As parents we represent God to our children and training them up in the way they should go is our responsibility. If they do not trust us, why would they obey us? If you lied to them about Santa Claus, why should they believe you about Jesus - who "shares" many of the same attributes we claimed Santa has?

You can't serve God and idols, so why keep the idol alive in the hearts of your children?

If the parent doesn't lie about it, much of this goes away. The lie is the issue I see with it.

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 02:03 AM
We never, ever told our kids Santa Claus (or the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy) were real. We explained to our kids that they were all just fun stories - nothing more. None of our kids ever cried of a broken heart, upon finding out Santa wasn't real.

We didn't treat these stories as something evil or Satanic. We just taught them that the REAL cause for Christmas was to celebrate the birth of Jesus, and that the REAL cause for Easter was to celebrate not only his atoning death but his resurrection.


Sometimes when parents freak out, and go ape nuts, about some of these things they only make them more mysterious and appealing to their kids.

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 02:04 AM
I do not see how Santa is an idol. I suppose he could be if you make him, but I do not know a single person who has. I think a lot of you have a tendency to overreact. Instead of attacking a fairytale character that helps to inspire warm fuzzies and good will toward men, why not be grateful that for a few days out of the year people from all walks of life are kinder to their fellow man. I would think Jesus would want us to focus on the good the mythological Claus does, not the bad you project on him with your opinions.

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 02:10 AM
Not everyone is attacking Santa. Some of us are just coming against the lie about who he is, that's all.

Shoot, my Dad plays Santa in the mall sometimes and it is sad some of the things kids ask him. One time a kid asked for his brother back because his brother had died. Dad wasn't able to bring his brother back but he was able to witness to the little boy about Jesus. He loved playing Santa because of how much he could talk about God to all those mall kids.

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 02:14 AM
Not everyone is attacking Santa. Some of us are just coming against the lie about who he is, that's all.

Shoot, my Dad plays Santa in the mall sometimes and it is sad some of the things kids ask him. One time a kid asked for his brother back because his brother had died. Dad wasn't able to bring his brother back but he was able to witness to the little boy about Jesus. He loved playing Santa because of how much he could talk about God to all those mall kids.

That's actually pretty cool. A little like Paul going into the heart of Athens & preaching.

By the way, have you ever read Donald Miller's book "Searching For God Knows What"? There's a chapter in there where he talks about being a kid in a bathroom at the mall - peeing right beside Santa. And he talks about how Santa didn't wash his hands before leaving the bathroom, and it freaked him out. Pretty funny story.

Mograce2U
Nov 24th 2007, 02:22 AM
I do not see how Santa is an idol. I suppose he could be if you make him, but I do not know a single person who has. I think a lot of you have a tendency to overreact. Instead of attacking a fairytale character that helps to inspire warm fuzzies and good will toward men, why not be grateful that for a few days out of the year people from all walks of life are kinder to their fellow man. I would think Jesus would want us to focus on the good the mythological Claus does, not the bad you project on him with your opinions.I have to disagree, truth is much more important than warm fuzzies any day. There is nothing kind about promoting a lie.

Mograce2U
Nov 24th 2007, 02:25 AM
That's actually pretty cool. A little like Paul going into the heart of Athens & preaching.

By the way, have you ever read Donald Miller's book "Searching For God Knows What"? There's a chapter in there where he talks about being a kid in a bathroom at the mall - peeing right beside Santa. And he talks about how Santa didn't wash his hands before leaving the bathroom, and it freaked him out. Pretty funny story.What Paul did not do is put on a Santa suit to give the gospel to the Athenians. As funny as that might have been, I don't think he was going for laughs.

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 02:38 AM
I am yet to hear of anything like that.

Um....you just did, right? :confused

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 02:42 AM
That's actually pretty cool. A little like Paul going into the heart of Athens & preaching.

By the way, have you ever read Donald Miller's book "Searching For God Knows What"? There's a chapter in there where he talks about being a kid in a bathroom at the mall - peeing right beside Santa. And he talks about how Santa didn't wash his hands before leaving the bathroom, and it freaked him out. Pretty funny story.

No never did read it. But I have the same thought about Athens and Paul and being whatever we need to be to preach Jesus. He uses all kinds of examples. Red is for the blood of Jesus and white represents the purity of His righteousness. He likes to present that theme when giving out candy canes. He has told me all kinds of parables he uses to present the gospel through his posing as Santa for photos.

But I will say this again... it is often sad what those kids ask for. It is a heart breaking thing to hear.

As for not washing hands... that is a scary thing about many men! hahahah. It's one reason I always wash my hands after leaving church.

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 02:50 AM
What Paul did not do is put on a Santa suit to give the gospel to the Athenians. As funny as that might have been, I don't think he was going for laughs.

I don't think anybody said anything about it being funny. I said that the story about Santa, in Donald Miller's book, was funny. I'd suggest you read the book. It's really good. Seriously!

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 02:54 AM
No never did read it. But I have the same thought about Athens and Paul and being whatever we need to be to preach Jesus. He uses all kinds of examples. Red is for the blood of Jesus and white represents the purity of His righteousness. He likes to present that theme when giving out candy canes. He has told me all kinds of parables he uses to present the gospel through his posing as Santa for photos.

I'm not sure I'd volunteer to be a Santa at a mall, even if I did look more the part. Not my cup of tea.

However... I agree that we should use whatever avenues available to us to get with people, build relationships with people, and earn the right to be heard when we talk about Jesus.

It seems to me that your dad is using his Santa gig as a "means to an end". There are many things I do for that exact reason - it's a means to an end. It's availing yourself to ministry, and intentionally pursuing ways to build relationships with people.



...and by the way, after shaking several hundred hands every Sunday morning, believe me, I wash my hands too!

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 03:09 AM
Of course it can be harmless, when left in fairy tale land. But if we lie about it, is it then harmless?

It seems to me you are advocating a position that any "fairy tale" is "safe" provided we always include the caveat that it is not "real", and to do otherwise is to "lie" to our children.

Honestly, I don't think children are as gullible, or as fragile, as most of the posters on this thread seem to think. Tooth fairies, Santa, Cinderella, Easter Bunny, WOnderDog, King Arthur, Superman, Batman, Tarzan, Peter Pan, Spiderman, The Chronicles of Narnia, .... (too many examples to mention)....all of these were "stories" I heard growing up, from parents or otherwise. I wasn't emotionally tormented by learning that any of them weren't "real", and I am pretty confident that every time my mother read Chronicles to me she didn't have to preface it with an explanation that the book is just an allegory and that lions can't really talk. Nor was she "lying" to me by reading me this wonderful masterpiece by C.S. Lewis as though it were real.

Children "get this" better than adults, I think. Imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

...perhaps Peter Pan was right after all ...

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 03:15 AM
It seems to me you are advocating a position that any "fairy tale" is "safe" provided we always include the caveat that it is not "real", and to do otherwise is to "lie" to our children.

Honestly, I don't think children are as gullible, or as fragile, as most of the posters on this thread seem to think. Tooth fairies, Santa, Cinderella, Easter Bunny, WOnderDog, King Arthur, Superman, Batman, Tarzan, Peter Pan, Spiderman, The Chronicles of Narnia, .... (too many examples to mention)....all of these were "stories" I heard growing up, from parents or otherwise. I wasn't emotionally tormented by learning that any of them weren't "real", and I am pretty confident that every time my mother read Chronicles to me she didn't have to preface it with an explanation that the book is just an allegory and that lions can't really talk. Nor was she "lying" to me by reading me this wonderful masterpiece by C.S. Lewis as though it were real.

Children "get this" better than adults, I think. Imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

...perhaps Peter Pan was right after all ...

Thank you for a very insightful post! I love the "imagination is a terrible thing to waste" line!

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 03:16 AM
Oh...and FTR, in my house we teach that CHristmas is about celebrating the birth of our Lord. Our entire Christmas celebration has little to do with gifts (although we do exchange them), and everything to do with praise for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Also, according to my two year old, sitting on Santa's lap at the mall is far more terrifying than learning that he isn't real. I have the pictures to prove it.

:lol:

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 03:25 AM
I think it is a harmless fabrication.

Perhaps my post was misunderstood..I have no problem with Santa, I think simply think the spirit of what was at the origin of the whole story has been very commercialized with the lowest common denominator of a lot of expectations for the entire holiday when it's all resting on a "fabrication".

There was time where "santa" was not around..like cell phones..folks managed to get by:). When I browse through stores that are pitching these outrageously expensive trendy toys with a message your child's heart will be broken if "Santa" does not make this happen Christmas Day..it annoy's the living beans out of me..

It would be naive to say this hasn't gotten worse over the years..the point being this was indeed a spin off of the orginal spirit of the holiday even on a secular level and until 1882..there was no "Santa"..just like no "Barbie"..no "Superman", etc..these are all fabricated idols of sorts created for children but corrupted by adults in terms of the innocence and novelty of them when they get carried away..exploited so to speak..by the powers that be that turn them into icon's.to wrack up the bucks over holidays..

Ugh..I remember being in malls when folks went nut's over the "Cabbage Patch" babies, practically killing each other and anyone to get to the last one left from a limited shippment that came in..so "Santa" would not dissappoint a child who had been waiting all year round with nothing else on their mind..believing there was no way Santa would not bring that toy,and would be heartbroken if it did not come..

Kid's relate to things so differently..

I worked in a day care center, it was no secret that some parents had funds to invest in very splashy toys, nor did I begrudge this even though I personally did not share this mentality or practice..and then the little ones who's parents made modest or lower incomes did the best they could..but it never failed when these toys showed up the day after Christmas..if the toy was a hot item..there were kids who just could not understand why "Santa" had favorites..or ran out..

There are so many things right that can be done on the part of folks with this season to bring very constructive and positive aspects from it for kids..my concern is simply with the fact that is not always the case and more often than not, it is not the case if we allow ourselves to get up with the "wrong spirit" of it all...that's not "Santa's" fault either, never said it was..:)

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 03:40 AM
It seems to me you are advocating a position that any "fairy tale" is "safe" provided we always include the caveat that it is not "real", and to do otherwise is to "lie" to our children.

Honestly, I don't think children are as gullible, or as fragile, as most of the posters on this thread seem to think. Tooth fairies, Santa, Cinderella, Easter Bunny, WOnderDog, King Arthur, Superman, Batman, Tarzan, Peter Pan, Spiderman, The Chronicles of Narnia, .... (too many examples to mention)....all of these were "stories" I heard growing up, from parents or otherwise. I wasn't emotionally tormented by learning that any of them weren't "real", and I am pretty confident that every time my mother read Chronicles to me she didn't have to preface it with an explanation that the book is just an allegory and that lions can't really talk. Nor was she "lying" to me by reading me this wonderful masterpiece by C.S. Lewis as though it were real.

Children "get this" better than adults, I think. Imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

...perhaps Peter Pan was right after all ...


I agree with the premise of your post. But what I am getting at is that some teach Santa Clause as truth. Don't you think there is a difference between using our imagination and teaching that Santa Clause is real? There is a difference between leaving him in fairy tale land and encouraging a belief that he is a real person. I didn't mean to suggest that we have the caveat "this is a fairy tale". But I did mean to suggest that to say Santa is real is lying. There is a difference in the two positions. In one, we have imagination. In another, we are encouraging a false belief system. I can speak of Tarzan and enjoy the story. I can speak of Santa and enjoy the story. Neither should be taught as though they are real living beings.

Imagination is a good thing and woefully underexcercised in churches today.

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 03:48 AM
It would be naive to say this hasn't gotten worse over the years..the point being this was indeed a spin off of the orginal spirit of the holiday even on a secular level and until 1882..there was no "Santa"..just like no "Barbie"..no "Superman", etc..these are all fabricated idols of sorts created for children but corrupted by adults in terms of the innocence and novelty of them when they get carried away..exploited so to speak..by the powers that be that turn them into icon's.to wrack up the bucks over holidays..

Amazed, its clear your beef is with the commercialization of Christmas. I think most CHristians would agree with you. (I certainly do). As I read the prior posts, I<3 was addressing Brother Mark's assertion that letting kids believe in Santa does them a disservice because it models "lying" behavior to them.

As for the daycare scenario you described - is the heartbreak over the fact that "Santa" didn't bring it....or that they simply didn't receive it at all? I know of no parents who encourage their children to believe that "Santa" will bring them something the parents know they cannot afford. If you take "Santa" out of the picture, it would be no less heartbreaking ("Why doesn't Mommy/Daddy love me the way their Mommy/Daddy loves them?") -- it is poverty that is heartbreaking -- for the parents as well as for the children. It would be there even if "Santa" were not.

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 04:09 AM
Amazed, its clear your beef is with the commercialization of Christmas. I think most CHristians would agree with you. (I certainly do). As I read the prior posts, I<3 was addressing Brother Mark's assertion that letting kids believe in Santa does them a disservice because it models "lying" behavior to them.

Actually, I didn't say anything about letting kids to believe in Santa. What I am getting at is adults lying to their kids about Santa. I have said over and over in the thread that is my beef. Not if kids believe in him or not.

In other words, it's one thing to allow kids to figure things out for themselves and watch the process as a parent. It is a totally different thing to tell your 5 year old Santa is real and brings presents and travels over the entire world, etc., etc.

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 04:13 AM
There is a difference in the two positions. In one, we have imagination. In another, we are encouraging a false belief system. I can speak of Tarzan and enjoy the story. I can speak of Santa and enjoy the story. Neither should be taught as though they are real living beings.

No, there isn't. Unless your position is that we must explicitly tell our children that it is a story, what you are describing is a difference between affirmative conduct (saying to your kid, "Tarzan was a boy who was raised by apes and liked to swing on vines, would you like to meet him?") and passive conduct (reading a story about Tarzan doing the same and making no statement at all about whether he is "real"). In both, a child will believe it to be real, at least for a time. Read any book to a toddler and you'll understand this immediately. My two year old still has trouble differentiating between stories and reality (last time I read "Goodnight Gorilla" to him he wanted to climb into the book to give the gorilla a hug goodnight ... I let him!). Did I lie to my son when I told him he could hug that gorilla and that the gorilla would hug him back? He put his little cheek to the page and went to bed a very happy boy.

Adults hear about Tarzan and "enjoy the story." Little boys grab their own vine and start swinging.


Imagination is a good thing and woefully underexcercised in churches today.

Clearly. :D

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 04:19 AM
Actually, I didn't say anything about letting kids to believe in Santa. What I am getting at is adults lying to their kids about Santa. I have said over and over in the thread that is my beef. Not if kids believe in him or not.

:eek: You are right, Brother! I used a poor choice of words. I apologize for misprepresenting your position.

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 04:23 AM
:eek: You are right, Brother! I used a poor choice of words. I apologize for misprepresenting your position.

Apology accepted. Thank you very much for reading again.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 04:24 AM
Amazed, its clear your beef is with the commercialization of Christmas. I think most CHristians would agree with you. (I certainly do). As I read the prior posts, I<3 was addressing Brother Mark's assertion that letting kids believe in Santa does them a disservice because it models "lying" behavior to them.


Perhaps my beef is still with the concerns Brother Mark raised as a valid point that there is no need to take a fictitous character and put many expectations on it's shoulders that aren't the ones to be carrying it..

My observations with the Christian community I am familiar with in general, there is not the materialistic aspect present at all..most families I know are profoundly diligent and commited to very precious and lovely values in terms of what ever manner they opt to celebrate "christmas"..

Poverty indeed is around year round but the entire concept of jam packing a house full of toys for a child that will be forgotten and ignored when the next new thing comes along..well thats the parent who is creating this neurotic perspective of Santa's "job" in some cases..

I was actually thinking of little ones who turn to Santa to get "daddy and mommy" to stop fighting and for daddy to come home..or for a parent who has passed away to come back, children who simply want a family and a home to live in becasue they are orphans..or mommy who is very sick to get better.. or daddy to stop hitting mommy, and worse "other things" I have personally observed over the years. In a culture or society where kids have been told and conditioned to believe Santa has been given the job to make these things happen happen..thats where my heart lies in terms of simply being heartbroken for such children..:cry:

When it comes to toys and the fact that Santa just did not bring something, sure kids observe these things "as children"..much differently than when they are adults..

Santa is an outlet promoted to kids, where he is given such high expectations of "making things better" or "impossible expectations, possible" when it comes to kids who don't realize their parents are not able to keep up with the Jones's or that toys under the tree have to be paid for by families who don't have an "in" with a North Pole character who sits around making "dancing elmos" or "hot items" that come over seas from China..

I sure don't hold innocent and blissfully naive kids culpable for having these expectations because they were taught them about Santa..nor do I hold "santa" responsible for who put them upon his shoulders either..so my beef is that if its going to be part of the tradition, then to do it constructively and lovingly in respect to allowing children to have a role model of sorts that reflect the best and most precious of core values and encounter with Christ in terms of how they relate to the spirit of love, hope, faith, generosity, charity and the privalege of receiving "blessings".

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 04:39 AM
Sidenote about kids and their imaginations..I was 7 years old and quite positive if one had the right red cape, they too could leap from tall buildings with a single bound "and fly"..lol!!

I was soooooo sure in my little imaginative mind that this was 'so"..I decided to teach my then much younger sibblings , "how to"..I had the comic books to prove it and for years I watched him do this on TV

Very bad "plan" on my part..I took a running leap over an embankment about 12 ft. above all the construction site stuff like bricks, rocks, cinderblocks that were below from the construction of my parent's new home and managed to fracture my right arm in numerous places..requiring a plaster cast up to my armpit for several months..

That's how I learned "superman" was not real..and that red capes do not turn you into his "little sister" so you can fly too! Now my parents lovingly spared adding further injury to my "injured" pride and explained that you must be born on Krypton under a red sun in order to fly and that I had been born in New York under a yellow sun..so from that point on my career was over to ever become "Super Girl"..:)

jeffreys
Nov 24th 2007, 04:41 AM
I guess some people have to learn things the hard way, don't they? :D

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 04:56 AM
Fair nuff, Amazed.

I still think that if the concern is about promoting a "false belief system" then it should make no difference whether the "system" is promoted affirmatively (parent tells child there is a guy named Santa who lives at the north pole and brings gifts) or passively (some other person tells your kid there is a guy named Santa and you do nothing to let your child know it is false).

I disagree that it is "lying." Its all "storytelling," whether its done by reading it from a page in a book, letting them hear it from a neighbor, or telling a tale to your child without adding the caveat that it is "just a story." It fosters imagination, encourages creativity, and is entirely appropriate for young children. Kids grow up too fast in society today. I wouldn't want to speed that process along by having to add caveats every time something is fantastical. They are smart enough to get that on their own as part of the normal developmental process.

..but I sympathize that there are those out there who would/could/might abuse it...including the retail industry.

It's past 11:30pm in my neck of the woods....have to get to bed or I might miss the tooth fairy.....and that would be totally lame to not have "fairy dust" in my eyes when I woke up in the morning.....

:lol:

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 05:05 AM
Sidenote about kids and their imaginations..I was 7 years old and quite positive if one had the right red cape, they too could leap from tall buildings with a single bound "and fly"..lol!!

I was soooooo sure in my little imaginative mind that this was 'so"..I decided to teach my then much younger sibblings , "how to"..I had the comic books to prove it and for years I watched him do this on TV

Very bad "plan" on my part..I took a running leap over an embankment about 12 ft. above all the construction site stuff like bricks, rocks, cinderblocks that were below from the construction of my parent's new home and managed to fracture my right arm in numerous places..requiring a plaster cast up to my armpit for several months..

That's how I learned "superman" was not real..and that red capes do not turn you into his "little sister" so you can fly too! Now my parents lovingly spared adding further injury to my "injured" pride and explained that you must be born on Krypton under a red sun in order to fly and that I had been born in New York under a yellow sun..so from that point on my career was over to ever become "Super Girl"..:)

What a precious story!!! Now just think, if your parents had told you that none of it was real before handing you your comic book, you wouldn't have been able to share such a delightful story with us all!!! Thank you for sharing! (ANd for not trying to jump again when you realized you actually couldn't fly!) :lol:

MMC
Nov 24th 2007, 05:10 AM
okay...I really am going to sleep now.....later all!!! :)

SIG
Nov 24th 2007, 05:22 AM
I guess we're talking about fiction and non-fiction, and the difference.

In the light of Christ, most things can be seen as fiction. But that by no means proves that fiction is evil. A myth (such as Santa) that represents a deeper truth can be a very good thing if it leads to that truth.

Being Jewish, I was not raised with Santa--or Jesus, for that matter. Now I believe I understand both.

As for eliminating fiction -- or Santa -- from children's lives, all I can say is: Whatta buncha buzzkills!!

Raise your kids in the knowledge and wisdom of Christ, and all else falls into place. The world stops being dangerous.

VerticalReality
Nov 24th 2007, 05:28 AM
As for eliminating fiction -- or Santa -- from children's lives, all I can say is: Whatta buncha buzzkills!!



The real issue here is that most parents do not teach Santa Clause as being fiction. They lie to their children and say he is real when in reality he is not. Since when is lying Christ-like? It doesn't matter what the topic. The parent, who is supposed to be trustworthy and an example of godliness for their children, is lying to them for years having them believe something that is totally fabricated.

A lie is a lie is a lie no matter how much you want to sugarcoat it or water it down.

ColeS
Nov 24th 2007, 05:38 AM
Um....you just did, right? :confused

Uhh, no I don't believe so.

spm62
Nov 24th 2007, 05:44 AM
The real issue here is that most parents do not teach Santa Clause as being fiction. They lie to their children and say he is real when in reality he is not. Since when is lying Christ-like? It doesn't matter what the topic. The parent, who is supposed to be trustworthy and an example of godliness for their children, is lying to them for years having them believe something that is totally fabricated.

A lie is a lie is a lie no matter how much you want to sugarcoat it or water it down.

So if you had young child and their grandparent died and you knew that grandparent never accepted Christ and lived a life of rebellion. You were with them on their deathbed and knew they denied Christ until the end. Your young child who loved that granparent asked you where you think granpa is..you would say he is suffering unbearably right now in hellfire and torment and will be forever and ever and ever without end.He is all alone in some outer darkness crying out in pain in suffering for all of eternity. Do you think that child would have a healthy view of Jesus because you told him the TRUTH according to the traditional american christian teaching in most churches?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 06:21 AM
I never have or will quite understand why anyone feels obligated to perpetuate Santa Claus as "real"..it boggles my mind..it's an unneeded lie at all..

My parent's never made the effort to discriminate this for me..I happened upon the stash of "gifts" tucked way in our attic..still did not make the connection until I saw these "packages" show up arund the tree and my parent's doing the same old ..Look what "Santa brought"...and while I suffered no horrible wounds to my psyche..what I did learn was that my parents "lied"..

I was terrified to let them know I had made this discovery..and it weighed on me for an entire two years before they figured out the "gig" was up..I never told my sibblings,,but I just had a real issue over trying to figure all of this out..I felt "guilty" for knowing this "secret" like all very "tormented" little Roman Catholic children tend to do from my generation and family orientation..

I had to wait until I received the "sacrament" of Penence..which openned a door for me to go "confess" my guilt in what a child perceives a duty and safe place to do so..and will never forget kneeling in this formidable "closet" in our church during weekly confession finally unable to bear the "guilt" of my secret knowledge one more Christmas and it was the parish priest who kindly put things into a context I could relate and understnad "as a child"..and I suspect gave my parents the heads up..

I came from a large family..I was the oldest..there was no way I was going to tell my sibblings Santa was not real..or expose my parents "shame" as liars.

I had things so twisted around as a child in respect to all of the implications..as it turned out..my parents brought me into their "secret circle" and put me to work in helping them keep up this charade for my younger sibblings..who were "shinnier pennies" than their older sister..and caught on faster to these things with less "conflict" over it all.

My point here is that it was not needed, the sweetest and most dear memories came from simply participating in the process of saving allowances and doing special jobs to earn "christmas money"..and eventually buying small items..to be taken to do this on behalf of others..and no longer about the getting. "at all"..but the pleasure "of giving"..thats what I remember as the "good stuff"..once all the secret keeping was over.

No lies were needed..and it would have accomplished the same results without all the angst or trauma/drama of "santa"..I understood as a child I was only "playing a part" when I was in a play..that I was not a turkey when I was cast in this role in the first grade pagent for Thanksgiving..I did not understand as a child why I had to keep a secret about a lie at all..or to participate in it "as a child"..except that if my parent's said it was Ok, that was supposed to make it "OK"..and along the way..that was very confusing..trying to sort out which "lies" were OK...in my case my father was a highly functioning alcoholic for years..and I was told this "secret and lie" was ok by the same parents..and it was not..

So sure my parents were human beings and they meant well..but these things do matter..and there is no need to promote "santa" as real..and "lie" that He is under any circumstances that "makes any sense"..

In my situation with the "superman" escapade..they never "taught me" he was real..they were trying to get me to read and used any resource as a mode to keep my interest up in reading..and "this worked"..I know they never anticipated "my imagination" was as over active as it was back then..all that reading sure contributed to it..lol!!

They never suspected I prowled downstairs and watched the late Sat. night TV while they "thought" I was tucked up in my bed sound asleep and that I had no "clue" godzilla was not real or theat aliens from some place named "mars" had landed and were takingover the world when I caught parts of "War of the Worlds" , or the "Dracula" flicks but they never would have let me do so..I was a "brat", who was not obeying my parents and in my bed where I was supposed to be.

They were horrified when they realized how fertile my immagination was when they found little bottles of Holy water, rosaries and garlic under my bed to ward off vampires..or every night a terrible thunderstorm came I woke up all my sibblings and made them crawl under my bed to escape "Godzilla" because I thought the thunder was his footsteps and we were all going to be eaten alive!

So once again,, there is no need to use "lies" to impart results that the real life folks can accomplish..or raise false expectations, just makes no sense what so ever IMHO..and if we teach children about stories like "Charlottes Web" without having to tell kids "pig's" really talk in order to capture their imagination.. IMHO, we don't have to teach them Santa is real either.:)

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 06:41 AM
So if you had young child and their grandparent died and you knew that grandparent never accepted Christ and lived a life of rebellion. You were with them on their deathbed and knew they denied Christ until the end. Your young child who loved that granparent asked you where you think granpa is..you would say he is suffering unbearably right now in hellfire and torment and will be forever and ever and ever without end.He is all alone in some outer darkness crying out in pain in suffering for all of eternity. Do you think that child would have a healthy view of Jesus because you told him the TRUTH according to the traditional american christian teaching in most churches?

Whew..thats a bit harsh..

A child who is of the age they can not correspond death with all of its implications also will not have a concept of hell and heaven an adult would with all of this "reality"..The first priority would be to help them process the loss of a loved family member and deal with the concept of death..

Secondly there would be no reasonto lie... if a child has a grasp of the concept of heaven and hell they should also have one that God is the one who makes these calls and we should not be "assuming" anything..nor imposing these calls upon them by "making them"..we can't assure them good , nice people who think they are going to heaven are..so we don't have to assure them of anyone going to hell either..when we "don't know"..so redirecting a childs concerns in a positive, loving way is not lying..or even on the same page of being equated with telling them Santa is real for any reason.

It would suffice to simply allow the child to be comforted in being honest with a loving explanation about death in terms it reassures them they are going to be Ok and its OK to grieve and miss someone..our job as parents is not to avoid hard realities about life..but to help our children navigate through them in as loving and age appropriate way when such tragedies occur..

VerticalReality
Nov 24th 2007, 06:46 AM
Do you think that child would have a healthy view of Jesus because you told him the TRUTH according to the traditional american christian teaching in most churches?

It sounds from this comment that you don't agree with the "traditional american christian teaching in most churches".

Care to expound on the loaded question?

Brother Mark
Nov 24th 2007, 03:34 PM
I disagree that it is "lying." Its all "storytelling," whether its done by reading it from a page in a book, letting them hear it from a neighbor, or telling a tale to your child without adding the caveat that it is "just a story." It fosters imagination, encourages creativity, and is entirely appropriate for young children. Kids grow up too fast in society today. I wouldn't want to speed that process along by having to add caveats every time something is fantastical. They are smart enough to get that on their own as part of the normal developmental process.

Yea, we won't agree here. The premise seems to be that the end justifies the means. Look at all the good imagination that comes from it.

To me, to tell something that is not true, when I know it is not true, is to lie. We can foster imagination without lying about things. Kids can't always tell the difference between what is real and imagined and we can let them work through that. But for an adult to say "Santa is real" when that adult knows he is not, well, how can that not be a lie? In my opinion, it seems to fit the definition of lying to a T.

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 03:34 PM
I plan on allowing my children to believe in Santa for as long as they want because childhood should be a magical time and kids should be allowed to be kids for as long as they possibly can. When the time comes I will have them write lists to Santa and leave cookies and milk for him. During the middle of the night my husband and I will sneak in, deposit presents and eat the cookies and drink the milk.

My children will know the reason for the season and the emphasis will not be on what they get, but what they can give to those around who are less fortunate. If we can, we will probably volunteer at a local shelter or soup kitchen so our children can fully understand how truly blessed they are. We will help them to make homemade gifts for family. Not only does it teach them that gifts made with the heart are much more valuable, but it is a lot of fun too.

Christmas is what you make it.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 24th 2007, 03:56 PM
Sidenote about kids and their imaginations..I was 7 years old and quite positive if one had the right red cape, they too could leap from tall buildings with a single bound "and fly"..lol!!

I was soooooo sure in my little imaginative mind that this was 'so"..I decided to teach my then much younger sibblings , "how to"..I had the comic books to prove it and for years I watched him do this on TV

Very bad "plan" on my part..I took a running leap over an embankment about 12 ft. above all the construction site stuff like bricks, rocks, cinderblocks that were below from the construction of my parent's new home and managed to fracture my right arm in numerous places..requiring a plaster cast up to my armpit for several months..

That's how I learned "superman" was not real..and that red capes do not turn you into his "little sister" so you can fly too! Now my parents lovingly spared adding further injury to my "injured" pride and explained that you must be born on Krypton under a red sun in order to fly and that I had been born in New York under a yellow sun..so from that point on my career was over to ever become "Super Girl"..:)I guess it's a really good thing you didn't try that from the balcony on the 15th floor, huh? :o I've heard lots of these 'red cape' stories and, believe me, yours turned out much better than it could have, even with the fracture. I had a friend when I was about 9 who broke his arm jumping off the roof and I've heard of horrible tragedies when kids jump from windows in buildings.

Anyway, this topic sure has been active overnight. My point remains to be that it is the perpetuation of a lie that is a problem, not the imagination of a child that believes the unbelievable. We ALL are to come to Messiah as a child so there is absolutely nothing wrong with that aspect of childhood. As a mother of three I can attest that it is awesome to watch the thought processes of a child. ;) I still can not imagine that my Lord would lie and somehow justify it. Once the child matures to the point where they can come up with the proper question, we should respect them enough to be honest to that question, on the same level in which it was asked.

Let me give you an example. At some point I asked my mom where babies came from and she answered that when a man and a woman love each other, that love makes a baby (we weren't saved at the time). She didn't sit me down with diagrams and explain about the sperm and the egg. We can answer their questions on the proper level of the question, but we do not need to lie to them. I just have never understood the logic in thinking it's okay to lie. Is there anything scriptural that makes you believe it's okay to lie to your children? :hmm:

Amazedgrace21
Nov 24th 2007, 04:56 PM
Let me give you an example. At some point I asked my mom where babies came from and she answered that when a man and a woman love each other, that love makes a baby (we weren't saved at the time). She didn't sit me down with diagrams and explain about the sperm and the egg. We can answer their questions on the proper level of the question, but we do not need to lie to them. I just have never understood the logic in thinking it's okay to lie. Is there anything scriptural that makes you believe it's okay to lie to your children? :hmm:

Perhaps simply the logic its even needed to maintain the same relevent meaningfulness of the traditon of Santa..if anything it appears such a contradiction to feel obligated to do so if one already has awareness of our own traditions of Christmas. I don't feel obligated to teach my children "Buddah" is a true God, simply because others adhere to this..at the same time I believe introducing children to other folks cultures and how and why they live differently, look different thanwe do is not wrong or bad.

One can impart all the beauty and virtue of a tradition around a season or holiday absent becoming implicitly involved to imposing something that clearly does not "compute" and eventually will be exposed as such. WHcih is why I personally don't have an issue with the celebration itself..or advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater by "canceling Christmas and banning Santa any more than Frosty the Snowman..they can be fun and sweet and wonderful experiences of childhood..just like Gumby or Mary Poppins..

My parents were such "trips" whenit came to much..my mother could not bring herself to discuss anything anatomically correct about her own body, much less mine..lol at any age, she was a product of her environment..and strict Roman Catholic-Irish traditions..my father on the other hand had four daughters and was a physician..and left the job by default of somehow responding to the subject of where babies came from and how they are made..and he clearly would have prefered , as my mother to "kiss a rattlesnake" on the lips than touch this with me..

His solution was to invest in those invisable human models of men and women that were clear plastic that required "assembly" and painting all the parts..handed me his medical journals with pics so I would get the "colors" of organs correct..then sat down and helped me assemble it..discussing things in very clinical terms..so I had the "oh " reaction..so whats the big deal here?" reponse when it came to visualizing the human body under the skin and how all the parts worked..but as to the rest of it..

I had to wait until one of the older sisters of a dear family sat me down and explained why a certain page in the book, "THE Godfather" was so popular..:cool: then the rest "computed" and I got the "OH MY" picture of the missing details of where babies come from..and I saw my own parents in a completely different light as human beings..lol!!

All of these experiences were filed away and became part of how I eventually chose to be a parent..I held onto as much of the good and lovely, the funny and innocent but departed from the unneeded and unprofitable parts of the whole..when it came to my own children..I simply abided by God's Book For Parenting and things went well..in spite of challanges we all face as parents. Santa was put on "par" with Frosty and Gumby, Jack and the Beanstalk, etc..thats all.. :lol: and Christ was given the only position he alone requires and deserves nor ever confused with being "fictitious" when one grows up.

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 09:57 PM
I think this is adorable, Santa believes in Baby Jesus:

http://www.amazon.com/Kneeling-Lighted-Holographic-Christmas-169919/dp/B000V8LHSA/ref=sr_1_453?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1195941315&sr=1-453

SIG
Nov 24th 2007, 10:16 PM
The real issue here is that most parents do not teach Santa Clause as being fiction. They lie to their children and say he is real when in reality he is not. Since when is lying Christ-like? It doesn't matter what the topic. The parent, who is supposed to be trustworthy and an example of godliness for their children, is lying to them for years having them believe something that is totally fabricated.

A lie is a lie is a lie no matter how much you want to sugarcoat it or water it down.

My entire post, rather than the one sentence quoted, made my meaning clearer.

I believe it's ok to allow Santa as a myth that represents something good. And to allow all fiction as myths that represent good and evil. The presence of Christ in a child's life is meant to teach them to distinguish one from the other.

Mograce2U
Nov 24th 2007, 10:33 PM
I think this is adorable, Santa believes in Baby Jesus:

http://www.amazon.com/Kneeling-Lighted-Holographic-Christmas-169919/dp/B000V8LHSA/ref=sr_1_453?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1195941315&sr=1-453
Which is it you finding worthy of adoration: the imaginary Santa, or Jesus?

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 10:48 PM
Which is it you finding worthy of adoration: the imaginary Santa, or Jesus?

Both, they are adorable!

CrunchyChristian
Nov 24th 2007, 10:49 PM
Christ wasn't born in December if I remember correctly.. I believe it was actually in October. :hmm:

Yup. So true. Santa is only ONE of the things wrong with the "Christmas Season." ;)

Studyin'2Show
Nov 24th 2007, 10:54 PM
Both, they are adorable!Yes, but only one is real. How many kids grow up and walk away from God because they think He is just a fairy tale? There should not be so much blurring of the lines, IMO. Santa, clearly as fiction, Jesus clearly as real. It should be easier to distinguish.

God Bless!

I<3Jesus
Nov 24th 2007, 10:58 PM
I'm going to continue to disagree with you til rapture, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I like Santa and I love Jesus ;)

Edit: This is also very cute: http://www.amazon.com/Santas-Christ-Firgurine-Christmas-Ornament/dp/B000X33IWG/ref=sr_1_3311?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1195945365&sr=1-3311

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 01:16 AM
I'm going to continue to disagree with you til rapture, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I like Santa and I love Jesus ;)

Edit: This is also very cute: http://www.amazon.com/Santas-Christ-Firgurine-Christmas-Ornament/dp/B000X33IWG/ref=sr_1_3311?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1195945365&sr=1-3311I suppose idols are a lot of fun else no one would bother with them...

Brother Mark
Nov 25th 2007, 01:36 AM
I suppose idols are a lot of fun else no one would bother with them...

While I am not a fan of lying, I don't see how Santa is an idol. Who on this thread is worshiping him?

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 01:42 AM
While I am not a fan of lying, I don't see how Santa is an idol. Who on this thread is worshiping him?
Santa is an imaginary entity to whom is attributed god like qualities and whom we then convince our children is real. We prop him up and make him cute and adorable so we can play with him. What do you think an idol is? I didn't mention worship, although I think adorable is not a good choice of words either.

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 01:43 AM
Santa is an imaginary entity to whom is attributed god like qualities and whom we then convince our children is real. We prop him up and make him cute and adorable so we can play with him. What do you think an idol is? I didn't mention worship, although I think adorable is not a good choice of words either.

Ummmmm... That wasn't the Santa we ever talked about in our house!

Brother Mark
Nov 25th 2007, 01:44 AM
Santa is an imaginary entity to whom is attributed god like qualities and whom we then convince our children is real. We prop him up and make him cute and adorable so we can play with him. What do you think an idol is? I didn't mention worship, although I think adorable is not a good choice of words either.

An idol is something we value or worship instead of God. I don't see anyone in this thread making a god out of santa or making him an idol.

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 01:47 AM
An idol is something we value or worship instead of God. I don't see anyone in this thread making a god out of santa or making him an idol.Hopefully, we don't being Christians. But it gets hard to tell the difference when what the idolator and the Christian does looks so much the same!

Brother Mark
Nov 25th 2007, 01:49 AM
Hopefully, we don't being Christians. But it gets hard to tell the difference when what the idolator and the Christian does looks so much the same!

Oh, they look very different to me. I am having no trouble telling them apart in this thread.

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2007, 01:52 AM
I don't think it's idolatry either. It's just a lie.

I'm saddened that folks who claim to be in Christ and claim to have His Spirit in them have no problem at all telling their children boldfaced lies.

Pretty disturbing, IMO. And then those same Christians want to be hypocritical and punish their children if they catch them in a lie. Not a very good example at all.

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 01:56 AM
I don't think it's idolatry either. It's just a lie.

I'm saddened that folks who claim to be in Christ and claim to have His Spirit in them have no problem at all telling their children boldfaced lies.

Pretty disturbing, IMO. And then those same Christians want to be hypocritical and punish their children if they catch them in a lie. Not a very good example at all.

Do you consider it a lie to tell your children stories about Santa, but never make any reference to him being real, or some god-like entity?

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2007, 02:14 AM
Do you consider it a lie to tell your children stories about Santa, but never make any reference to him being real, or some god-like entity?

If the kids are perfectly clear that Santa is just make believe and not real it's not a lie.

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 02:43 AM
http://bibleforums.org/customavatars/avatar15797_1.gif (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=15797) Mograce2U (http://bibleforums.org/member.php?u=15797) - I am really glad that you and I do not see eye to eye. I do not mean to be mean, so please do not take it this way, but sometimes I think we follow different Gods. My God tells me not to judge people lest I be judged by the same measure. You judge EVERYTHING. It seems like you spend most of your time on this site arguing or negating everything. Do you really think that God wants us to spend our time tearing everything apart? I feel like you mourn your faith and that makes me incredibly sad.

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 02:54 AM
If the kids are perfectly clear that Santa is just make believe and not real it's not a lie.

Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate it.

I guess I'm just a bit baffled by this rather long thread, partly because the whole "Santa Debate" has simply not been part of my life.

We don't decorate with any kind of Santa motif, but neither do we shriek in horror and make finger crosses if we see a lighted Santa in somebody's yard.

Yes, we hang stockings on our mantle during the Christmas season - and yes, my wife fills them all late Christmas Eve and the kids (me being the oldest kid) wake up with them on their beds Christmas morning. This is still one of the highlights of Christmas for our sons, who are now in their 20s. But we've never led our kids to believe Santa slithered down the chimney and did it.

My wife loves the Christmas season, and already has several Christmas trees up and decorated in her minimalist style. Nothing idolatrous about the trees. We just enjoy their beauty and what it adds to the season.


Sometimes I think Christians can over-react to things, and in a weird sort of way, make those very things we rail against even more mysteriously attractive to our kids.

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 02:57 AM
Sometimes I think Christians can over-react to things, and in a weird sort of way, make those very things we rail against even more mysteriously attractive to our kids.

Amen to that, but even worse than making anything more attractive to our kids is the fact that over zealous people who overreact about things like this turn off non believers. If I were a non believer who was on the fence and I read this thread I would be running for the hills.

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 03:01 AM
Amen to that, but even worse than making anything more attractive to our kids is the fact that over zealous people who overreact about things like this turn off non believers. If I were a non believer who was on the fence and I read this thread I would be running for the hills.

I would much rather sit down with an unbeliever, at a coffee shop, and have an enjoyable and honest conversation about Christmas, than to simply rant about how evil it all is.

I've learned the hard way, over many years in ministry, that you have to earn the right to be heard. And you earn that right by building relationships. And you build those relationships by going to where people are, taking what they are for what it is, and using that as your starting point. That's what Jesus did, and I've finally begun to really grasp the beauty of how and why He did that!

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 03:06 AM
I would much rather sit down with an unbeliever, at a coffee shop, and have an enjoyable and honest conversation about Christmas, than to simply rant about how evil it all is.

I've learned the hard way, over many years in ministry, that you have to earn the right to be heard. And you earn that right by building relationships. And you build those relationships by going to where people are, taking what they are for what it is, and using that as your starting point. That's what Jesus did, and I've finally begun to really grasp the beauty of how and why He did that!

I usually forget about rep points, but you totally deserve some. I completely agree with you :)

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 03:07 AM
I usually forget about rep points, but you totally deserve some. I completely agree with you :)

Forget the rep points. Send me a bag of Caribou Coffee! :)

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2007, 03:24 AM
Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate it.

I guess I'm just a bit baffled by this rather long thread, partly because the whole "Santa Debate" has simply not been part of my life.

We don't decorate with any kind of Santa motif, but neither do we shriek in horror and make finger crosses if we see a lighted Santa in somebody's yard.

Yes, we hang stockings on our mantle during the Christmas season - and yes, my wife fills them all late Christmas Eve and the kids (me being the oldest kid) wake up with them on their beds Christmas morning. This is still one of the highlights of Christmas for our sons, who are now in their 20s. But we've never led our kids to believe Santa slithered down the chimney and did it.

My wife loves the Christmas season, and already has several Christmas trees up and decorated in her minimalist style. Nothing idolatrous about the trees. We just enjoy their beauty and what it adds to the season.


Sometimes I think Christians can over-react to things, and in a weird sort of way, make those very things we rail against even more mysteriously attractive to our kids.

There's nothing wrong with any of that, IMO. My only beef here is lying about it, and then the sugarcoating that many Christians try to give about it as if a "white lie" isn't that bad. A lie is a lie in my book, and I think this lie can do a lot more damage than many think.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 04:12 AM
I would much rather sit down with an unbeliever, at a coffee shop, and have an enjoyable and honest conversation about Christmas, than to simply rant about how evil it all is.

And exactly what would an honest conversation about Christmas consist of? :saint:

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 05:29 AM
And exactly what would an honest conversation about Christmas consist of? :saint:

What do you think it would consist of?

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 06:39 AM
Whew..thats a bit harsh..

A child who is of the age they can not correspond death with all of its implications also will not have a concept of hell and heaven an adult would with all of this "reality"..The first priority would be to help them process the loss of a loved family member and deal with the concept of death..

Secondly there would be no reasonto lie... if a child has a grasp of the concept of heaven and hell they should also have one that God is the one who makes these calls and we should not be "assuming" anything..nor imposing these calls upon them by "making them"..we can't assure them good , nice people who think they are going to heaven are..so we don't have to assure them of anyone going to hell either..when we "don't know"..so redirecting a childs concerns in a positive, loving way is not lying..or even on the same page of being equated with telling them Santa is real for any reason.

It would suffice to simply allow the child to be comforted in being honest with a loving explanation about death in terms it reassures them they are going to be Ok and its OK to grieve and miss someone..our job as parents is not to avoid hard realities about life..but to help our children navigate through them in as loving and age appropriate way when such tragedies occur..

Sorry..I was basically just responding to the statement that a lie is a lie is lie and we shouldn`t sugarcoat the truth. The fact is we all sugarcoat the truth at the times. We can give excuses about why we sugarcoat the truth but if a child in that situation was old enough to ask for the truth about God and his punishment and you were afraid to tell him..what message does that send? My point being..if you are prepared to make the broad statement that we should never sugarcoat the truth when talking about God then you should stand by that statement. If you believe that God throws people into everlasting hellfire and torment then don`t be afraid or ashamed to proclaim it and don`t sugarcoat it!

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 06:48 AM
What do you think it would consist of?

I asked first. LOL!

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 07:14 AM
Santa is an imaginary entity to whom is attributed god like qualities and whom we then convince our children is real. We prop him up and make him cute and adorable so we can play with him. What do you think an idol is? I didn't mention worship, although I think adorable is not a good choice of words either.

I think most people know that children believing some fat guy in a red suit brings gifts to all the children in the world on one day of the year is harmless. That is also a far cry from being an idol..good grief! I also believe some people look for the devil in anything. I`m sure there is somebody somewhere that believes some irrevocable harm was done to them for believing in santy claus for a few years or they were scarred for life. But for the overwhelming majority of people it was harmless fun that they look back on with happiness and fondess to a time of innocence. So much so that they pass that tradition on to their own kids. There is real harm that is done to our children that have a far greater impact on them than santy clause. We need to stop looking for the devil in such trivial things and concentrate on the things that really do bring them harm. :B

Studyin'2Show
Nov 25th 2007, 01:21 PM
We don't decorate with any kind of Santa motif, but neither do we shriek in horror and make finger crosses if we see a lighted Santa in somebody's yard. Finger crosses! :rofl: :P No, I don't believe anyone is making finger crosses at the mall or picketing at the line for Santa pictures. :D I don't think this is really an 'outside the family' discussion. I mean the family of God. I don't make judgments about anyone who does these things but I think it is prudent as believers to understand such things on a deeper level than someone who's not a believer. We ARE ambassadors for Christ so it is important what we do and why we do it. I believe that what has come out as the big question of this thread is, should Christian parents LIE to their children when they ask if Santa is real. I just can't see how lying can be justified biblically for something like this. What type of example is that for our older children as they watch us lie to the youngers? Children will believe on their own, it is their nature which is why Jesus gave us them as an example to how we should believe. What he didn't do was give us an example to lie.

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Nov 25th 2007, 03:17 PM
I think most people know that children believing some fat guy in a red suit brings gifts to all the children in the world on one day of the year is harmless. That is also a far cry from being an idol..good grief! I also believe some people look for the devil in anything. I`m sure there is somebody somewhere that believes some irrevocable harm was done to them for believing in santy claus for a few years or they were scarred for life. But for the overwhelming majority of people it was harmless fun that they look back on with happiness and fondess to a time of innocence. So much so that they pass that tradition on to their own kids. There is real harm that is done to our children that have a far greater impact on them than santy clause. We need to stop looking for the devil in such trivial things and concentrate on the things that really do bring them harm. :BSo you don't see any problems with our xmas traditions even though they breed covetousness in our children and cause them to put their hope in an imaginary figure? Children who have no troubles believing in Santa because of their hope in getting toys? What do you think the wiles of the devil would be if not to this end? Will Jesus provide them with toys...

jiggyfly
Nov 25th 2007, 03:21 PM
Finger crosses! :rofl: :P No, I don't believe anyone is making finger crosses at the mall or picketing at the line for Santa pictures. :D I don't think this is really an 'outside the family' discussion. I mean the family of God. I don't make judgments about anyone who does these things but I think it is prudent as believers to understand such things on a deeper level than someone who's not a believer. We ARE ambassadors for Christ so it is important what we do and why we do it. I believe that what has come out as the big question of this thread is, should Christian parents LIE to their children when they ask if Santa is real. I just can't see how lying can be justified biblically for something like this. What type of example is that for our older children as they watch us lie to the youngers? Children will believe on their own, it is their nature which is why Jesus gave us them as an example to how we should believe. What he didn't do was give us an example to lie.

God Bless!
Very good post, you worded it very well too. Hopefully we all know who the "father of all lies" refers. Christmas has become a very confusing holiday for most and it's full of all kinds of distractions.

songladyjenn
Nov 25th 2007, 03:51 PM
Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. I appreciate it.

I guess I'm just a bit baffled by this rather long thread, partly because the whole "Santa Debate" has simply not been part of my life.

We don't decorate with any kind of Santa motif, but neither do we shriek in horror and make finger crosses if we see a lighted Santa in somebody's yard.

Yes, we hang stockings on our mantle during the Christmas season - and yes, my wife fills them all late Christmas Eve and the kids (me being the oldest kid) wake up with them on their beds Christmas morning. This is still one of the highlights of Christmas for our sons, who are now in their 20s. But we've never led our kids to believe Santa slithered down the chimney and did it.

My wife loves the Christmas season, and already has several Christmas trees up and decorated in her minimalist style. Nothing idolatrous about the trees. We just enjoy their beauty and what it adds to the season.


Sometimes I think Christians can over-react to things, and in a weird sort of way, make those very things we rail against even more mysteriously attractive to our kids.

Amen! Your wife sounds a lot like me :lol: we have had stockings up on the fireplace as long as I could remember, and even with my own kids when we didn't have a fireplace we would take some poster board and construction paper and MAKE one :D and the stockings (since my childhood) has always contained, underwear, toothbrush and paste, couple of pieces of candy and a piece of fruit. It was simply a tradition.

2 days before Christmas we read "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas" Christmas Eve we read "The Night Before Christmas" and every Christmas morning before the first gift is exchanged we read the REAL Christmas story from the Bible. Last year it was my middle child's first time to read it (he turned 10 the month before) It is a great honor. Then we all pray together as a family and thank God for sending Jesus so that we could once again enter a relationship with the creator of the universe!

As far as Santa all of my children from 13 down to 6 know the history behind Santa Clause. (Saint Nicholas) They know that the Santa at the mall is a man in a costume. Santa is a real as they want him to be. They know that there isn't a real man that lives at the North Pole but as long as they want to believe it's ok it's called IMAGINATION....

For those who haven't yet seen it I highly recommend the movie Bridge to Terabithia...shows how powerful an imagination can be!!!

Amazedgrace21
Nov 25th 2007, 03:57 PM
I basically told my kid's the truth all along about "Father Christmas" and how the season began..and why everyone enjoys the beautiful message of this story..

My parents were a bit older when they got married and began having children..by grandmother and great aunts and an Uncle were still "about"..until their late 90's and two made it to over 100 yrs..and they had their children much later in life than most folks..My Great Grandfather was 94 yrs old. when he passed away when I was very young..

The thing is..they were sharp as tacks..and there was no "Santa" around in thte way we see or understand him in a great portion of their lives at all.. My German side of the family were very traditonal in their practices of this holiday as well..I have a lovely diary of my grandmother and aunts experience of all of this from their European perspective of the Irish and German celebrations..same from the Welsh and English of my former husbands family..

The popularity of Christmas was spurred on in 1820 by Washington Irving's book The Keeping of Christmas at Bracebridge Hall. In 1834, Britain's Queen Victoria brought her German husband, Prince Albert, into Windsor Castle, introducing the tradition of the Christmas tree and carols that were held in Europe to the British Empire.

During the Middle Ages, many churches were built in honour of Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of children. Wearing his red and white bishop's robes, he would ride on a donkey to deliver gifts to children. In 1860, illustrator Thomas Nast introduced Santa Claus in the fashion we now know him.


A week before Christmas in 1834, Charles Dickens published A Christmas Carol (in which he wrote that Scrooge required Cratchit to work, and that the US Congress met on Christmas Day). It was so popular that neither the churches nor the governments could not ignore the importance of Christmas celebrations.

Prior to that,in England, Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas festivities between 1649 and 1660 through the so-called Blue Laws, believing that Christmas should be a solemn day.The Protestants who were persecuted in England and Europe immigrated here and brought the celebration of this version of the Holiday with them.

So it was not even a legal or uniformly practiced holiday at all in this country before 1836 and even then it was about a "real man" and because he was a Cardinal, he wore the red suit that was the inspiration for the suit just like one might celebrate the life of Martin Luthor King, etc. and again this falls back on the original Dates in December that were segregated by the history of how Christs birth was brought into all of this and Bishop Nicholaus's story of what he did to represent the spiritual aspects of his faith that got him evenually designated as a Saint and the Patron Saint of Children.

The commercial Santa we know who only arrived much later in the late 1800's and was created, once again as a "story..fairy tale character" based upn a poem..which everyone knew about called "The Night Before Christmas" and then created and promoted as an advertising icin for Coke, by the company..


In 1836, Alabama became the first state in the US to declare Christmas a legal holiday. In 1837, T.H. Hervey's The Book of Christmas also became a best seller. In 1860, American illustrator Thomas Nast borrowed from the European stories about Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of children, to create Father Christmas (Santa Claus). In 1907, Oklahoma became the last US state to declare Christmas a legal holiday.

So Santa the character was not even around before 1860...the legal holiday acknowledged uniformally in this country before 1907..and the picture of him we se splashed all over today before the late 1880's.

The point being there were origins of praying to to "Father Christmas" the patron Saint Nicholas by children and for children associated with this holiday..and then incorporated int the tradition of making "wish list's" from Santa by children..

If one accepts the notion this is appropriate in respect to the practice itself and encouraging children to do this..then one needs to be somewhat honest about how and why this is part of the tradition and that the Santa they are indoctinated to as the character is not real but who the individual was that he was based on was a man who did not identify himself as the grantor of wishes but simply a humanitarian, Christian spirted man who loved kids and was regarded with "saintly' virtues for this.

That's what I tell others..about Christmas..and how these virtues are from his love of Christ..and go from there in respect to this "sweet story" about a child born in a manger and the wonderous message of His birth:hug:

Again I see nothing virtuous or saintly about "Santa" or a need to represent him as anything but what he is or participate in "make believe" games that have to be misrepresented as anything but "make believe"....nor to insist otherwise to kids..and simply always used the opportunity of celebrating Christs life..the entire story of it over the Holidays..to teach my own children about virtues and character as well as the life of Christ.

My simple question is why is it perceived as bad or wrong to simply allow children to enjoy the part thatis make believe but to assure them and teach them that is is and not uphold the other aspects of Christs Birth and life as the very real things they are?

Now obviously Christs birth is not going to sell stuff in stores on its own merit..folks who do want to keep this seperated in the commercial sector are promoting keeping Christ out, yet they do not promote spilling the beans about a fictitious character and his true origin and give credit where credit is due to Bishop Nicholas either..a mere man who is supposed to be the inspiration of the holiday spirit of Santa..

That just makes me shake my head because in all actuality this "is the real lie" about Santa and the man who was the first "santa"..and how or why it ever became good or needed to "forget this" seems pretty sad in respect to pass on to kids as well..to enrich their appreciation of the tradition of Santa IMHO..:confused

ServantofTruth
Nov 25th 2007, 04:45 PM
I saw on a site SATAN move the letters around SANTA - proof he's evil. No just nonsense obviously.
Santa can bring such joy, but we have to compromise to bring it. Lie that he exists, lie that he goes round the world in one night, lie he drank the drink and ate the mincepie. One lie after another. Who wants us to lie - yes satan the devil.
Why not be honest and say hes not real but lets pretend what a nice grand father figure could do. But don't lie about santa because satan will use little lies and make you tell bigger ones to cover up.

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 05:16 PM
I think most people know that children believing some fat guy in a red suit brings gifts to all the children in the world on one day of the year is harmless. That is also a far cry from being an idol..good grief! I also believe some people look for the devil in anything. I`m sure there is somebody somewhere that believes some irrevocable harm was done to them for believing in santy claus for a few years or they were scarred for life. But for the overwhelming majority of people it was harmless fun that they look back on with happiness and fondess to a time of innocence. So much so that they pass that tradition on to their own kids. There is real harm that is done to our children that have a far greater impact on them than santy clause. We need to stop looking for the devil in such trivial things and concentrate on the things that really do bring them harm. :B

If I could rep you, I totally would.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 05:22 PM
I think most people know that children believing some fat guy in a red suit brings gifts to all the children in the world on one day of the year is harmless.

Harmless in a worldly sense? Perhaps. But telling our children a lie (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie) is a sin. Perhaps that's what we should focus on.

Tanya~
Nov 25th 2007, 05:31 PM
:)

This is rather controversial, isn't it! I never taught my kids to believe in Santa Claus. To me, trying to look at it from a child's perspective, it doesn't seem good to mix and mingle the truth with myth like this. When a child is small they really can't tell the difference. Santa is in some ways more 'real' than Jesus because Santa actually does something for them, that they can relate to -- they see that the milk is gone, that the cookies are eaten, that there are presents under the tree. Little children are fooled by these things, and it seems rather sad to me, that we should fool our kids with stuff like that. Paganism is all based on myth, whereas Christianity is the truth. People still embrace myth because the idea is 'good' even though the story itself isn't true.

I've seen images of Santa bowing before the manger, or giving "the baby Jesus" a teddy bear. To a small child, who doesn't know that Santa is a myth, this is real and they believe that Santa was there when Jesus was born.

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 05:36 PM
Amen to that, but even worse than making anything more attractive to our kids is the fact that over zealous people who overreact about things like this turn off non believers. If I were a non believer who was on the fence and I read this thread I would be running for the hills.

That is absolutely true. It just grieves my spirit the way some in the church seem to be almost on a witchhunt to find evil in any and everything. I wish they could see the harm they are doing and the people that are driven away because of the legalism and holier than thou attitude that is so prevasive in the church. I`m sure they would have attacked Jesus for turning water into wine or attacked the woman who was caight in adultery..who jesus did not condemn by the way. We ALL need God`s grace and mercy. Not one of us is any better,smarter,or more discerning than our neighbor. If we are saved it is because of God`s grace and nothing else. I think that is one of the biggest things satan uses against the church...the holier than thou attitude..finding evil in everything. If a parent allows their child to believe in an imaginary santa for a few years..fine..if you don`t..fine too. It`s calling it from the devil and evil that I shake my head at.

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 05:40 PM
So you don't see any problems with our xmas traditions even though they breed covetousness in our children and cause them to put their hope in an imaginary figure? Children who have no troubles believing in Santa because of their hope in getting toys? What do you think the wiles of the devil would be if not to this end? Will Jesus provide them with toys...

do you celebrate your childrens birthdays?

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 05:45 PM
do you celebrate your childrens birthdays?

I do. But I'm real. :D Plus, when my daughter recieves gifts, she gives some of her older toys to a local under privileged community.

Joe King
Nov 25th 2007, 06:28 PM
God is Santa Claus.

FaithfulSheep
Nov 25th 2007, 06:30 PM
God is Santa Claus.

Explain.
.......................

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 06:58 PM
That is absolutely true. It just grieves my spirit the way some in the church seem to be almost on a witchhunt to find evil in any and everything. I wish they could see the harm they are doing and the people that are driven away because of the legalism and holier than thou attitude that is so prevasive in the church. I`m sure they would have attacked Jesus for turning water into wine or attacked the woman who was caight in adultery..who jesus did not condemn by the way. We ALL need God`s grace and mercy. Not one of us is any better,smarter,or more discerning than our neighbor. If we are saved it is because of God`s grace and nothing else. I think that is one of the biggest things satan uses against the church...the holier than thou attitude..finding evil in everything. If a parent allows their child to believe in an imaginary santa for a few years..fine..if you don`t..fine too. It`s calling it from the devil and evil that I shake my head at.

You really need to turn your rep on ;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 07:01 PM
I do. But I'm real. :D Plus, when my daughter recieves gifts, she gives some of her older toys to a local under privileged community.

A lot of people have their children donate some of their old toys after Christmas. My aunt has four children, when they where younger she would do this (they are all in junior high/high school now). I do not understand the real comment.

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2007, 10:57 PM
That is absolutely true. It just grieves my spirit the way some in the church seem to be almost on a witchhunt to find evil in any and everything.

So, basically all I'm seeing in your responses is that lying is a sin that you don't have a problem with.

That doesn't make any sense at all to me and it just isn't biblical. How about adultery and murder? How do you feel about those? Or do you rank sin as if some just aren't that bad?

That sort of mindset is deceived.

spm62
Nov 25th 2007, 11:31 PM
So, basically all I'm seeing in your responses is that lying is a sin that you don't have a problem with.

That doesn't make any sense at all to me and it just isn't biblical. How about adultery and murder? How do you feel about those? Or do you rank sin as if some just aren't that bad?

That sort of mindset is deceived.

No, you just made my point. Sin is sin and believe it or not,you sin as well. It is easy to always walk around trying to point out the sin in everybody else but not want to recognize the sin in your own life. We should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and stop trying to always find fault with everything else. You mentioned adultery..did Jesus condemn the woman caught in the act? No he did not and he was perfect. He is also the judge and creator of all things. Funny how some people want to play the role of judge and they themselves suffer from sin in their own lives. Unless of course you are saying you don`t sin and you are well equipped to play judge and jury to things you disagree with. Thank God ,he will be the judge and not a fellow human being who sins and needs Gods grace like everyone else.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 12:01 AM
Let's play nice folks. Keep the personal examples out of the discussion please.

Gracias!

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 12:21 AM
That is absolutely true. It just grieves my spirit the way some in the church seem to be almost on a witchhunt to find evil in any and everything. I wish they could see the harm they are doing and the people that are driven away because of the legalism and holier than thou attitude that is so prevasive in the church. I`m sure they would have attacked Jesus for turning water into wine or attacked the woman who was caight in adultery..who jesus did not condemn by the way. We ALL need God`s grace and mercy. Not one of us is any better,smarter,or more discerning than our neighbor. If we are saved it is because of God`s grace and nothing else. I think that is one of the biggest things satan uses against the church...the holier than thou attitude..finding evil in everything. If a parent allows their child to believe in an imaginary santa for a few years..fine..if you don`t..fine too. It`s calling it from the devil and evil that I shake my head at.So in your mind those who take a stand against a lie are the same as those who oppose the truth?

Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery because no one remained to accuse her and He forgave her AND admonished her to go and sin no more. This is also a picture of our standing before the Lord now that the accuser of the brethren has been cast down. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But those who continue in willful sin have a fear of judgment to face.

(Heb 10:26-27 KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

In Deut 6 we can find a guideline for leading our children into the truth of God's word. No where can you find in scripture though that we ought to adopt traditions that require we lie & deceive our children because it can be fun for them when we do so. Rather we ought to be teaching them the fear of the Lord.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 26th 2007, 12:58 AM
You mentioned adultery..did Jesus condemn the woman caught in the act? No he did not and he was perfect.

Did He condemn her? No, but He did tell her to go and sin no more. I don't think (I speak for myself at least) that anyone here is trying to condemn anyone else. Am I a sinner? Of course! Do I repent (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/repent) of the sin that I knowingly commit? Yes. With the help of the Lord Jesus Christ.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 01:20 AM
Very good post, you worded it very well too. Hopefully we all know who the "father of all lies" refers. Christmas has become a very confusing holiday for most and it's full of all kinds of distractions.

I'm not confused by it! Are you? :rolleyes:

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 01:34 AM
Moved this out of bible chat and into controversial issues forum.

jiggyfly
Nov 26th 2007, 02:05 AM
I'm not confused by it! Are you? :rolleyes:
No, atleast I don't think so. But I don't do the santa claus thing either.

Tanya~
Nov 26th 2007, 02:10 AM
I'm not confused by it! Are you? :rolleyes:

I personally was very confused by Christmas until I realized that Christians aren't actually under any obligation to keep it. Once I understood that, I was no longer confused.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 02:12 AM
Just so everyone knows, when this thread got moved, MMC lost access to it. He/She hasn't been here the required 30 days to post in this forum.

Seeker of truth
Nov 26th 2007, 02:12 AM
Back when I was a kid we didn't have all this "Santa is a lie" stuff. Just about everyone believed in Santa (hey, I was a kid) I can remember being dissapointed when I found out he wasn't real but I didn't feel like my parents were liars. This was a normal thing.

Santa was pretty much tradition. My kids all believed (Hannah still halfheartedly does) None of them have ever accused me of lying to them because they believed. It was part of growing up. As I said, more tradition than a lie.

The problem I see is all too many children know Santa at Christmas but not our Lord. That is a shame :( :cry:

CrunchyChristian
Nov 26th 2007, 02:43 AM
I personally was very confused by Christmas until I realized that Christians aren't actually under any obligation to keep it. Once I understood that, I was no longer confused.

That is actually a really awesome point, Tanya. I think people feel that if they stop celebrating Christmas then they are doing a disservice to God. That's not the case at all. I think it is actually glorifying to Him that people could actually give up such an "important" part of their life for His glory. Especially when it exposes the truths of the holiday. Think of the testimony!

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 02:45 AM
That is actually a really awesome point, Tanya. I think people feel that if they stop celebrating Christmas then they are doing a disservice to God. That's not the case at all. I think it is actually glorifying to Him that people could actually give up such an "important" part of their life for His glory. Especially when it exposes the truths of the holiday. Think of the testimony!

Whatsoever you do, do unto the Lord! If one gives up Christmas, let it be given up unto the Lord. If one celebrates Christmas, let it be celebrated unto the Lord!

CrunchyChristian
Nov 26th 2007, 02:51 AM
Back when I was a kid we didn't have all this "Santa is a lie" stuff. Just about everyone believed in Santa (hey, I was a kid) I can remember being dissapointed when I found out he wasn't real but I didn't feel like my parents were liars. This was a normal thing.

Santa was pretty much tradition.

Mark 7:9

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition."

Whether or not you feel like your parent's were liars isn't the issue. Is Santa real? No. Did they tell you he was? Yes. That's a lie. To keep this tradition one must go against God's word. Sounds a lot like Mark 7 verse 9.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 26th 2007, 02:56 AM
Whatsoever you do, do unto the Lord! If one gives up Christmas, let it be given up unto the Lord. If one celebrates Christmas, let it be celebrated unto the Lord!

Romans 14:5-6 ;)

Seeker of truth
Nov 26th 2007, 02:57 AM
Mark 7:9

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition."

Whether or not you feel like your parent's were liars isn't the issue. Is Santa real? No. Did they tell you he was? Yes. That's a lie. To keep this tradition one must go against God's word. Sounds a lot like Mark 7 verse 9.

I knew I would regret posting in this thread :lol:

We all have our own opinions. I don't happen to believe there is any harm in celebrating Christmas though I've been listening to the Jehovas Witness try to convince me otherwise for 12 years.

I mean no disrespect. I am going to leave this post as I came.....knwoing better than to continue. It seems pretty no win for me.

God Bless :hug:

Matthew 12:21
Nov 26th 2007, 03:21 AM
I have to say, I have certainly never thought of parents who told their kids about Santa Clause as "liars". I believed in Santa until about 7 years ago, when I began to reason that a large man in a red suit could not travel the world in a flying sleigh. Was I upset that my parents had "lied" to me? Of course I wasn't...that didn't cross my mind at all. If anything it gave me some respect for the ingenuity of my parents. :lol: Honestly, I think alot of you guys are overthinking this, instead of just looking at it from the perspective of a child. This argument seems rather legalistic to me.
In any case, I'll always look back at my childhood Christmas memories with fondness. Santa included. I wouldn't have it any other way...

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:27 AM
I believed in Santa until about 7 years ago, when I began to reason that a large man in a red suit could not travel the world in a flying sleigh.

That's really not a good thing, if you're 35 years old! :)

Matthew 12:21
Nov 26th 2007, 03:33 AM
That's really not a good thing, if you're 35 years old! :)

I should have known that might come up! 7 years ago I was 10, if that makes you feel any better. :lol:

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 03:45 AM
If anything it gave me some respect for the ingenuity of my parents. :lol: ...


Ya know, I thought the same thing! I never saw my parents as liars, and our kids haven't pointed a finger at us as being liars too. We've let it phase itself out, and it's no big deal. We give it no attention, and it's no big deal.

Technically, or leaglistically, telling someone santa is real is a lie. So is telling someone that if they get hit on the back with their face all screwed up it will stick that way.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:54 AM
No, you just made my point. Sin is sin and believe it or not,you sin as well. It is easy to always walk around trying to point out the sin in everybody else but not want to recognize the sin in your own life. We should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and stop trying to always find fault with everything else. You mentioned adultery..did Jesus condemn the woman caught in the act? No he did not and he was perfect. He is also the judge and creator of all things. Funny how some people want to play the role of judge and they themselves suffer from sin in their own lives. Unless of course you are saying you don`t sin and you are well equipped to play judge and jury to things you disagree with. Thank God ,he will be the judge and not a fellow human being who sins and needs Gods grace like everyone else.

How did this topic get twisted around to condemning? Is that how we are going to justify a lie?

"Oh, I know it's a lie, but you shouldn't judge."

Is that how it is? Is it now acceptable to lie to our children about some mythological character just because nobody is without sin? How in the world does that relate to the topic at hand?

Tanya~
Nov 26th 2007, 04:06 AM
I would be very surprised if the thought that one's parents lied would even cross the mind of any child. The child is just processing the new information, is all. They don't really think of things the way adults do. They believe everything their parents tell them, even contradictory things. Their trust is complete and unquestioning. The problem is that now, the parent has to get the concept across to the child that Jesus is real, whereas Santa was not real. Everything that is Christmas is such a mishmash of pagan and Christian, truth and myth, spiritual and worldly, that it would be very surprising to me if a child could sort it all out.

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 04:11 AM
How did this topic get twisted around to condemning? Is that how we are going to justify a lie?

"Oh, I know it's a lie, but you shouldn't judge."

Is that how it is? Is it now acceptable to lie to our children about some mythological character just because nobody is without sin? How in the world does that relate to the topic at hand?

Who is without sin? How can we throw a stone at the santa thing but not at the parent that says I promise just to keep the kid quiet? Or i put down on my timecard at work as being there at 7:30 when I really didn't show up until 7:33.

It's not that we should not judge - but when we point out fault after fault in an effort to make sure that another knows they are a sinner - that is where it is legalistic. Perfection could not be reached under the old law, which is why we have a new covenant under Christ.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 04:16 AM
Who is without sin? How can we throw a stone at the santa thing but not at the parent that says I promise just to keep the kid quiet? Or i put down on my timecard at work as being there at 7:30 when I really didn't show up until 7:33.

It's not that we should not judge - but when we point out fault after fault in an effort to make sure that another knows they are a sinner - that is where it is legalistic. Perfection could not be reached under the old law, which is why we have a new covenant under Christ.

If you showed up at 7:33 you shouldn't put 7:30. What's so difficult about being honest, and why do we simply accept sin just because everybody does it? It's not about pointing out fault in others. It's about calling a spade a spade. If it's a lie it's a lie regardless of what it's about. Being that I know teaching kids that Santa is real is a lie, I'm not going to do it. That's walking into deliberate sin, IMO. How is calling sin a sin being legalistic? Being legalistic is trying to lay laws on others and speaking where Scripture does not. Every Christian should know that lying is wrong. Every Christian should know that lying is a sin and disapproved of by God. So then why when folks call a sin a sin does it translate to legalism or condemning? That doesn't make any sense to me.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 05:05 AM
I'm actually rather disturbed by seeing people calling other people liars. That's just not right.

Would you call me a liar because, when my daughter was 4-years old, she handed me a picture she had drawn and I joyfully told her, "Honey, I believe that's just about the prettiest picture of our house I've ever seen!"? Would I be a liar, because there were other pictures of our house that were more accurate than hers? And would I be a liar because she was a little girl, and not actually honey?

Come on folks, let's stop calling each other liars. :blush:

Joe King
Nov 26th 2007, 06:35 AM
Explain.
.......................

God has all the gifts you could ever want.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 11:50 AM
I'm actually rather disturbed by seeing people calling other people liars. That's just not right.


How is acknowledging something as a lie "calling people liars"?

If I say that murdering people is a sin and it is wrong and there just so happens to be a murderer on this forum, am I therefore calling that person out specifically or am I just pointing out what is sin? Would you then have a problem and say I was calling that person a murderer?

You see? We could go rounds that way all day long. How about we just stick to the issue and address the topic. The topic is Santa Clause and it is my position that parents should not teach their children something that is a lie. Parents should be honest and open with their children about what is make believe and what is not.

That's not calling people liars. It's simply pointing out what is Christ-like and what is not.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 01:46 PM
That's really not a good thing, if you're 35 years old! :)

I'm not allowed to rep you again for awhile...but I totally would have on that one! :rofl:

Oh...hello everyone! Things sure got heated in here....but I'm okay with it because ..... guess what???....... I'M BACK!!!!! :pp

:hug: all around!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 01:50 PM
And would I be a liar because she was a little girl, and not actually honey?

:lol: I would have repped you on that one too!!!

jiggyfly
Nov 26th 2007, 02:13 PM
I'm actually rather disturbed by seeing people calling other people liars. That's just not right.

Would you call me a liar because, when my daughter was 4-years old, she handed me a picture she had drawn and I joyfully told her, "Honey, I believe that's just about the prettiest picture of our house I've ever seen!"? Would I be a liar, because there were other pictures of our house that were more accurate than hers? And would I be a liar because she was a little girl, and not actually honey?

Come on folks, let's stop calling each other liars. :blush:
Is it being honest with her? I think that honesty is a far better character quality than flattery, but then this is just my opinion. It's one thing to withhold truth and totally another to distort truth.

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 02:36 PM
Is it being honest with her? I think that honesty is a far better character quality than flattery, but then this is just my opinion. It's one thing to withhold truth and totally another to distort truth.

Let me ask this.

Why are we offended when scripture offends?

Then, why do we feel we have to point fingers on top of scripture? If the Word has done it's work, then our intentions, no matter how well intended are moot.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 02:47 PM
I guess I must be really weird to most. I came to true faith as an adult at 31 and one of the things I seemed to see clearly that the enemy would love for me to continue doing was being dishonest; especially about little unimportant things. I stopped lying about even little things; I became more aware of how much we (in our flesh nature) lie without even thinking. No longer did I tell bill collectors that I was not home. :rolleyes: No longer did I call in sick because I wanted a day off when I was not sick. No longer did I tell a person that they looked nice when they didn't. That may have been the most difficult but I've found that God has consistently given me the proper words to both not lie and not offend someone.

I would never judge anyone or point fingers and I don't think that's what this is about. I see it as one believer making another believer aware of a trap the enemy has put before us all. My teenage daughter properly corrected me and my hubby about a year ago concerning an old comedy movie we had really enjoyed before we got saved. We rented it and she ended up getting up and leaving the room quite upset. When we went after her and began to discuss it, we realized that she was right. We had enjoyed it as unbelievers but as believers things were supposed to be different. Call me crazy but shouldn't we as fellow believers encourage each other to move away from the 'old man' that lied without thinking, to the the 'new man' that recognizes when he lies so he can correct himself? Should we, as believers, continue to do what the world does concerning its 'little white lies'? I have said that I see no trouble in fantasy. If a child believes...fine! However, once that child comes and asks you a specific question and you say something that is not true...I believe a line has been crossed and the enemy of our souls rejoices. That's my view.

God Bless!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 03:01 PM
Let me ask this.

Why are we offended when scripture offends?

Then, why do we feel we have to point fingers on top of scripture? If the Word has done it's work, then our intentions, no matter how well intended are mute.


Did you mean "moot"? I was with you until you got to "mute intentions"... :confused

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:26 PM
I guess I must be really weird to most. I came to true faith as an adult at 31 and one of the things I seemed to see clearly that the enemy would love for me to continue doing was being dishonest; especially about little unimportant things. I stopped lying about even little things; I became more aware of how much we (in our flesh nature) lie without even thinking. No longer did I tell bill collectors that I was not home. :rolleyes: No longer did I call in sick because I wanted a day off when I was not sick. No longer did I tell a person that they looked nice when they didn't. That may have been the most difficult but I've found that God has consistently given me the proper words to both not lie and not offend someone.

I would never judge anyone or point fingers and I don't think that's what this is about. I see it as one believer making another believer aware of a trap the enemy has put before us all. My teenage daughter properly corrected me and my hubby about a year ago concerning an old comedy movie we had really enjoyed before we got saved. We rented it and she ended up getting up and leaving the room quite upset. When we went after her and began to discuss it, we realized that she was right. We had enjoyed it as unbelievers but as believers things were supposed to be different. Call me crazy but shouldn't we as fellow believers encourage each other to move away from the 'old man' that lied without thinking, to the the 'new man' that recognizes when he lies so he can correct himself? Should we, as believers, continue to do what the world does concerning its 'little white lies'? I have said that I see no trouble in fantasy. If a child believes...fine! However, once that child comes and asks you a specific question and you say something that is not true...I believe a line has been crossed and the enemy of our souls rejoices. That's my view.

God Bless!

I agree totally. Calling something a lie when it is indeed a lie is not "pointing fingers" at others. It's simply exposing the darkness with light. The enemy loves any lie, no matter how "tiny" we think it may be.

As for the kid who draws a picture of the house, no, you don't lie to the kid and tell them that it is the best drawing you've ever seen. You can be honest with them and tell them what you think about it. If you think it is a good drawing relative to their age and talent, then tell them so. If a 30 year old man comes to me with a drawing of stick men and asks me how good I think it is, I'm going to tell him not very. Why? Because that sort of thing is relative to the person doing it. A person who is 30 years old should be able to put a little more effort and skill into something a 5 year old is doing. So, the standard is different. If a 5 year old comes to me with a drawing of stick men, with it being relative to their age and talent it could very well be a good drawing. However, I'm not going to lie and say it's the best drawing I've ever seen. What's so hard about being honest? You can be complimentary to another's efforts without including dishonest remarks.

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 03:29 PM
Did you mean "moot"? I was with you until you got to "mute intentions"... :confused

Oops, yes, I meant moot... :blush:

Fixed it. :)

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 03:31 PM
It's not officially the Christmas season until the annual "Santa is evil" thread. ;)

It seems what we've got here is a failure to communicate. That often seems to be the case. I think we all agree on what the "reason for the season" is. It's Jesus. The disagreement is to what extent Santa interferes with the celebration of Christ's birth.

The view that Santa is simply a lie and as bad as any other lie is incorrect in my opinion. There is a difference IMO between telling a story and allowing a child to believe it and deliberately deceiving someone. The Santa myth can have great value. Indeed, a man who's purpose in life is to give to others is a good thing.

I grew up believing in Santa Claus. When I honestly questioned the myth though my mother didn't try to deceive me. She understood that at that point there was no need to perpetuate the myth. There comes a point where a child understands that it's not feasible for an old man in a sleigh to fly all over the world at night and any attempt to cover that fact up only delays the inevitable. I think it's the responsibility of parents to recognize this point in time and act accordingly.

As for being traumatized...if you were traumatized by learning that Santa isn't real then a) Your parents focused way too much on Santa at Christmas and/or b) You've got much bigger problems in life than Santa not being real. Sure, it's ok for a child to be upset when they learn that Santa isn't real, but it shouldn't be the kind of thing that scars you for life.

Anyway, my point is that kids can be told about Santa and be just fine. We shouldn't equate a fictional story with a blatant lie. The two are not the same. With that in mind, the focus of Christmas should always be on CHRIST. Santa is not a substitute for Jesus and the two should never be confused.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:32 PM
How is acknowledging something as a lie "calling people liars"?

If I say that murdering people is a sin and it is wrong and there just so happens to be a murderer on this forum, am I therefore calling that person out specifically or am I just pointing out what is sin? Would you then have a problem and say I was calling that person a murderer?

You see? We could go rounds that way all day long. How about we just stick to the issue and address the topic. The topic is Santa Clause and it is my position that parents should not teach their children something that is a lie. Parents should be honest and open with their children about what is make believe and what is not.

That's not calling people liars. It's simply pointing out what is Christ-like and what is not.

Have you ever led anybody to the Lord by getting in their face, and calling them a liar?

I doubt it.


There is a better way...

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:34 PM
Is it being honest with her? I think that honesty is a far better character quality than flattery, but then this is just my opinion. It's one thing to withhold truth and totally another to distort truth.

Yeah, okay. I'm probably going to hell for that too! :lol:

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:36 PM
Have you ever led anybody to the Lord by getting in their face, and calling them a liar?

I doubt it.


There is a better way...

I'm not getting in anyone's face and calling them a liar now.

In addition, I shouldn't be "leading anyone to Lord" here. We're all self-proclaimed Christians here who should be able to accept correction when sin is exposed.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:38 PM
I'm not getting in anyone's face and calling them a liar now.

In addition, I shouldn't be "leading anyone to Lord" here. We're all self-proclaimed Christians here who should be able to accept correction when sin is exposed.

I think you're intentionally skirting the point. ;)

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:39 PM
I think you're intentionally skirting the point. ;)

No, I just disagree with your point.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 03:42 PM
Oops, yes, I meant moot... :blush:

Fixed it. :)

Phew! That was quite confusing for my puny brain! :D Good post, though!

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 03:43 PM
Let me ask this.

Why are we offended when scripture offends?

Then, why do we feel we have to point fingers on top of scripture? If the Word has done it's work, then our intentions, no matter how well intended are moot.

I like this post. Do you mind if I just copy it so people can read it again? :D

Thanks!

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 03:45 PM
Yeah, okay. I'm probably going to hell for that too! :lol:You're not going to hell if you've accepted Messiah's sacrifice to cover your sin. I don't think anyone here is telling people they're going to hell for Santa. :rolleyes: The only reason you or anyone would go to hell would be that they did not accept Messiah's sacrifice. ;)

God Bless!

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 03:46 PM
Hi Matthew, #146 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1451285&postcount=146)

Anyway, my point is that kids can be told about Santa and be just fine. We shouldn't equate a fictional story with a blatant lie. The two are not the same. With that in mind, the focus of Christmas should always be on CHRIST. Santa is not a substitute for Jesus and the two should never be confused.And yet they exist together in our xmas tradition. Let's see, a little manger scene on the table with the baby Jesus and wise men vs a huge tree with lights and baubles and gorgeously wrapped presents under it. And the angel is what we put on the tree and not on the creche. Where do you suppose the child's attention is being held? Is he hoping is Jesus' return on xmas eve or Santa's arrival? You can say "Jesus is the reason for the season" all you want, but if what you do then sends a different message, confusion is bound to be the result.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:48 PM
No, I just disagree with your point.

You're perfectly entitled to disagree.

And I disagree with your approach.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 03:48 PM
Let me ask this.

Why are we offended when scripture offends?

Then, why do we feel we have to point fingers on top of scripture? If the Word has done it's work, then our intentions, no matter how well intended are moot.

Ooo!! Me too!!!! :D

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:51 PM
You're perfectly entitled to disagree.

And I disagree with your approach.

Which pretty much goes without saying. So, what is your point?

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 03:52 PM
I grew up believing in Santa Claus. When I honestly questioned the myth though my mother didn't try to deceive me. She understood that at that point there was no need to perpetuate the myth. There comes a point where a child understands that it's not feasible for an old man in a sleigh to fly all over the world at night and any attempt to cover that fact up only delays the inevitable. I think it's the responsibility of parents to recognize this point in time and act accordingly. You know what Matthew? This isn't your average 'Santa is evil' thread. :D We've come to somewhat of an agreement that children will believe fantasy, that is in their nature. The problem we seem to have come to is not Santa the myth but rather why Christian parents would feel the need to be dishonest with their children when they ask if he is real. As you've explained here, your mother did not lie, so it seems you are on the 'There's no need to lie to your kids about Santa' side of this issue. ;)

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 03:53 PM
Hi Matthew, #146 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1451285&postcount=146)
And yet they exist together in our xmas tradition. Let's see, a little manger scene on the table with the baby Jesus and wise men vs a huge tree with lights and baubles and gorgeously wrapped presents under it. And the angel is what we put on the tree and not on the creche. Where do you suppose the child's attention is being held? Is he hoping is Jesus' return on xmas eve or Santa's arrival? You can say "Jesus is the reason for the season" all you want, but if what you do then sends a different message, confusion is bound to be the result.

I don't recall a time being confused about Christmas. I think others have stated the same. It wasn't confusing to me in the least. But it was fascinating and something to be figured out. My parents never told me if Santa was true or false until I figured it out myself. From that experience, I learned some discernment and had fun in the process. Never did they lie to me about Santa. Not one time. But they didn't speak the total truth about it either. (Of course, Jesus and God don't tell everything they know either.)

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 03:54 PM
Which pretty much goes without saying. So, what is your point?

My point is the same point I was making in post #135.

This whole business of "Christians" getting in other people's faces and calling them liars is not Christ-like behavior at all.

Any way we want to sugar-coat it, it is is offensive, antagonistic and does not lead to any productive discussion.

It needs to stop.

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 03:54 PM
Which pretty much goes without saying. So, what is your point?

I think we can all agree that you two have agreed that you will just have to disagree. :P

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 03:58 PM
This whole business of "Christians" getting in other people's faces and calling them liars is not Christ-like behavior at all.

And again, nobody here is getting in others' faces and calling them liars. Therefore, I do not see your point. Calling a lie a sin is not the same as getting in others' faces and calling them liars. If you believe so, well, then you're just wrong. Simple as that.


Any way we want to sugar-coat it, it is is offensive, antagonistic and does not lead to any productive discussion.

I guess the truth can be offensive. People don't like others believing that what they are doing is wrong.


It needs to stop.

Being that it never started, again, I don't see your point.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:04 PM
I think we can all agree that you two have agreed that you will just have to disagree. :P

Agreed!! :D
I'm about to break out the popcorn and start chanting, "JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!" :lol:

threebigrocks
Nov 26th 2007, 04:07 PM
Agreed!! :D
I'm about to break out the popcorn and start chanting, "JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!" :lol:


:rofl: .

Let's all take a deep breath, agreed?

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:11 PM
Agreed!! :D
I'm about to break out the popcorn and start chanting, "JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!" :lol:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

OK. I burst out laughing at that point. (I started to write "busted" out laughing but I remembered that you are a lawyer.) haha

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 04:12 PM
I hope this isn't a derail but I've always wondered about the good kids who don't get any presents and how they feel seeing kids that may be very mischievous or bullies get bikes and clothes and lots of stuff. Do they think they must be the bad little boys or girls that the stories say Santa doesn't bring presents to? That was one of the things I saw as a child that made me wonder. I was extremely blessed and always had plenty but I would see really nice kids that hardly got anything and what I saw as mean kids get so much. It wasn't very fair. But as I've said, when I asked my mom she told me the truth and explained who Saint Nick was so I was able to rationalize that some kids, good or bad, had rich parents and some had poor parents. Just curiously and not to point fingers but have any of you thought about these kids and how they react to no presents? :hmm:

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 04:15 PM
Hi Matthew, #146 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1451285&postcount=146)
And yet they exist together in our xmas tradition. Let's see, a little manger scene on the table with the baby Jesus and wise men vs a huge tree with lights and baubles and gorgeously wrapped presents under it. And the angel is what we put on the tree and not on the creche. Where do you suppose the child's attention is being held? Is he hoping is Jesus' return on xmas eve or Santa's arrival? You can say "Jesus is the reason for the season" all you want, but if what you do then sends a different message, confusion is bound to be the result.

Are you proposing a larger nativity? ;)

Seriously though, I think you are correct in that a child's attention is easily held by Santa. Children like to get gifts and they know that come December 25th they'll be something under the tree.

None of us know when Jesus will return and it is quite easy to forget the many blessings that he has bestowed upon us. For this reason it's very important to emphasize Christ in our celebration of Christmas. You say confusion is bound to result, yet we have many examples where confusion did not result. At no point did I ever believe that Santa was God or the messiah. I don't doubt that too much focus is placed on commercialism or Santa in our society. But, that doesn't mean that the myth of Santa cannot be incorporated into Christmas.

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 04:15 PM
I don't recall a time being confused about Christmas. I think others have stated the same. It wasn't confusing to me in the least. But it was fascinating and something to be figured out. My parents never told me if Santa was true or false until I figured it out myself. From that experience, I learned some discernment and had fun in the process. Never did they lie to me about Santa. Not one time. But they didn't speak the total truth about it either. (Of course, Jesus and God don't tell everything they know either.)The only reason you are not confused by it is because you seem to think they belong together! The Lord has told us enough to know that this is not true. Israel is our example: bringing idols into the temple to worship the Lord along side them brought judgment upon them. If we raise our children to think that this is pleasing to God so that they too accept this; then we have not shown them a true picture of the God of scripture, who is Holy and will not share His glory with another.

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 04:16 PM
Are you proposing a larger nativity? ;)

Seriously though, I think you are correct in that a child's attention is easily held by Santa. Children like to get gifts and they know that come December 25th they'll be something under the tree.

None of us know when Jesus will return and it is quite easy to forget the many blessings that he has bestowed upon us. For this reason it's very important to emphasize Christ in our celebration of Christmas. You say confusion is bound to result, yet we have many examples where confusion did not result. At no point did I ever believe that Santa was God or the messiah. I don't doubt that too much focus is placed on commercialism or Santa in our society. But, that doesn't mean that the myth of Santa cannot be incorporated into Christmas.Do you have a directive to follow from scripture that this is what we ought to do?

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:17 PM
I hope this isn't a derail but I've always wondered about the good kids who don't get any presents and how they feel seeing kids that may be very mischievous or bullies get bikes and clothes and lots of stuff. Do they think they must be the bad little boys or girls that that stories say Santa doesn't bring presents to?

No. They think they are poor, and that life isn't "fair." All of which is true. Kids are a lot smarter than many adults give them credit for.

Also, I think Amazed covered that issue many posts back...somewhere....I'd give the post number but I got distracted by the Springer show....;)

:kiss:

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:17 PM
I hope this isn't a derail but I've always wondered about the good kids who don't get any presents and how they feel seeing kids that may be very mischievous or bullies get bikes and clothes and lots of stuff. Do they think they must be the bad little boys or girls that that stories say Santa doesn't bring presents to? That was one of the things I saw as a child that made me wonder. I was extremely blessed and always had plenty but I would see really nice kids that hardly got anything and what I saw as mean kids get so much. It wasn't very fair. But as I've said, when I asked my mom she told me the truth and explained who Saint Nick was so I was able to rationalize that some kids, good or bad, had rich parents and some had poor parents. Just curiously and not to point fingers but have any of you thought about these kids and how they react to no presents? :hmm:

Never thought about it in that way. My heart breaks every Christmas because I know some poor families. It is a hard time for them. Very hard.

But it is the same principle as knowing others are hungry while I am fed. It doesn't make me getting full wrong, but it sure doesn't hurt for me to be reminded that others are hungry.

There are charities out there that help, like Samaritan's Purse. I could go on and on, but it might derail the thread. Thanks for pointing it out.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:20 PM
The only reason you are not confused by it is because you seem to think they belong together! The Lord has told us enough to know that this is not true. Israel is our example: bringing idols into the temple to worship the Lord along side them brought judgment upon them. If we raise our children to think that this is pleasing to God so that they too accept this; then we have not shown them a true picture of the God of scripture, who is Holy and will not share His glory with another.

That's unfair. I'm familiar (somewhat) with Brother Mark's position on this issue. I would be careful about stating what other people "think" about things.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:22 PM
Do you have a directive to follow from scripture that this is what we ought to do?

Nah. Just a lot of freedom in Christ. But we do have this interesting description of glory from scripture...

Prov 19:11
11 A man's discretion makes him slow to anger,
And it is his glory to overlook a transgression.
NASU

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 04:22 PM
You know what Matthew? This isn't your average 'Santa is evil' thread. :D We've come to somewhat of an agreement that children will believe fantasy, that is in their nature. The problem we seem to have come to is not Santa the myth but rather why Christian parents would feel the need to be dishonest with their children when they ask if he is real. As you've explained here, your mother did not lie, so it seems you are on the 'There's no need to lie to your kids about Santa' side of this issue. ;)

God Bless!


I was about to move away for college and she figured I'd probably find out there anyway. :D

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:23 PM
The only reason you are not confused by it is because you seem to think they belong together!

Really? Might want to work on your mind reading skills there. :P


The Lord has told us enough to know that this is not true. Israel is our example: bringing idols into the temple to worship the Lord along side them brought judgment upon them. If we raise our children to think that this is pleasing to God so that they too accept this; then we have not shown them a true picture of the God of scripture, who is Holy and will not share His glory with another.

Oh, I would never teach anyone to make Santa into an idol. Why would I do that? It's against scripture and God.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 04:23 PM
Okay, let's all just take a deep breath, count to twenty, and remember that we all confess Jesus as Lord! We are on the same side, people! Maybe not on every little issue, and that's okay. It's the BIG issue of accepting Messiah that we all know we got right that is most important. Let's not lose sight of that.

God Bless!

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 04:24 PM
Do you have a directive to follow from scripture that this is what we ought to do?

I think a case can be made that a fictional story used to teach a lesson is useful.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 04:33 PM
I think a case can be made that a fictional story used to teach a lesson is useful.

...or Biblical.

Perhaps some people have lost sight of what the Parables of Jesus were! Earthly stories illuminating heavenly truths.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 04:36 PM
...or Biblical.

Perhaps some people have lost sight of what the Parables of Jesus were! Earthly stories illuminating heavenly truths.

Were the disciples not clear that they were parables? Additionally, did those parables not represent truth in and of themselves? What is dishonest about the parable of the sower? Birds will eat seed that have fallen by the wayside. Seed that is sown in stony places will not have a good root. Seed that is sown in thorny places will be choked out by those thorns. Finally, seed that is sown on good soil will produce an abundant crop. There is truth inside those stories, and additionally, the disciples are well aware that they are just stories.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:36 PM
I think a case can be made that a fictional story used to teach a lesson is useful.

Well...a case can be made for anything....(I know). :cool:
I think originally this thread was about whether its okay for parents to present the "fictional story" as though it were "real."

But now....I dunno where the thread is going...."straight to hell" probably! LOL!

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 04:37 PM
Nah. Just a lot of freedom in Christ. But we do have this interesting description of glory from scripture...

Prov 19:11
11 A man's discretion makes him slow to anger,
And it is his glory to overlook a transgression.
NASUBut we are not talking about someone who offends me, but whether or not such things offend God. Our liberty in Christ is to do right and not to promote evil - especially in things wherewith we worship Him. We aren't talking about our style of music here. What glorifies God is what makes Him known. Santa however reveals Baal-ness to us, not Jesus.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 04:39 PM
But we are not talking about someone who offends me, but whether or not such things offend God. Our liberty in Christ is to do right and not to promote evil - especially in things wherewith we worship Him. We're aren't talking about our style of music here. What glorifies God is what makes Him known. Santa however reveals Baal-ness to us, not Jesus.

Never saw Baal in Santa. Don't see it now. But if you consider it a transgression, the verse still applies.

When one transgresses the law, the law will speak to him. Until the Spirit of God convicts a man, all my words are for naught.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:42 PM
But we are not talking about someone who offends me, but whether or not such things offend God.

"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."


Santa however reveals Baal-ness to us, not Jesus.

:o Santa better not reveal anything to me!!!

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 04:43 PM
Were the disciples not clear that they were parables? Additionally, did those parables not represent truth in and of themselves? What is dishonest about the parable of the sower? Birds will eat seed that have fallen by the wayside. Seed that is sown in stony places will not have a good root. Seed that is sown in thorny places will be choked out by those thorns. Finally, seed that is sown on good soil will produce an abundant crop. There is truth inside those stories, and additionally, the disciples are well aware that they are just stories.

No, the disciples were not always clear that they were parables.

Ironically, even as Jesus spoke, there were people standing around accusing him of lying, and being a liar. And his accusers were absolutely convinced that they were 100% right, and were doing everything right. ;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 04:47 PM
I just have a quick question for all of those people who have spent such a large amount of time in this thread negating Santa, what have you done to counter act said negativeness with positiveness? Surely there are other things you could be doing besides forcefully cramming your opinion. I do not mean that as an attack, but since you clearly have stated (over and over and over) again why you hate Jolly Old Saint Nick, why not move on and do something positive? Whom are you edifying by continuing to argue this point? Whom are you glorifying? Surely it is not God. I did not see Jesus bickering with the masses. He said his peace and then shook the dust off his robes and feet and moved on. If our goal is to be more Christ-like I do not see a lot of Christ-like behavior in this thread.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 04:51 PM
Ironically, even as Jesus spoke, there were people standing around accusing him of lying, and being a liar.

But was He? I think not.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:51 PM
I just have a quick question for all of those people who have spent such a large amount of time in this thread negating Santa, what have you done to counter act said negativeness with positiveness?

I have counteracted said negativeness with lots of positiveness by seasoning said thread with humor in an effort to keep things light and in perspective. :saint:

But the point is well taken, I<3!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:54 PM
But was He? I think not.


:B :B :B :B

Some things are apparently too difficult to grasp.

Time to :giveup:

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 04:55 PM
I'm not getting in anyone's face and calling them a liar now.

In addition, I shouldn't be "leading anyone to Lord" here. We're all self-proclaimed Christians here who should be able to accept correction when sin is exposed.

Whoa, who are you to expose anyone else's sin? Do you have a magic machine that allows you to see into a person's heart? How about their thoughts? You are very self righteous. You cannot even take that as an attack since that is how you represent yourself. Throughout this thread you have been passing judgment left and right. You have been making a lot of assumptions about others. I would be careful if I were you.

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 04:57 PM
Well...a case can be made for anything....(I know). :cool:
I think originally this thread was about whether its okay for parents to present the "fictional story" as though it were "real."

But now....I dunno where the thread is going...."straight to hell" probably! LOL!

Haha, yes of course a case can be made for anything.

My point as Jeffreys made clear was that of course a fictional story can be used as a tool to teach. The parables of the Bible make that quite clear.

The usefulness of a parable is not in whether it is factual account or not, but in the meaning. The fact that Santa is not real is inconsequential. No sane adult believes in Santa. Every child will eventually learn that Santa is a myth and the only question is when. The usefulness of Santa is to teach children lessons in a way that is fun and easy for them to understand.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 04:58 PM
And a good point it was, Matthew! ;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 04:58 PM
I have counteracted said negativeness with lots of positiveness by seasoning said thread with humor in an effort to keep things light and in perspective. :saint:

But the point is well taken, I<3!

You are very funny indeed, I enjoy your posts.

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 05:00 PM
Well...a case can be made for anything....(I know). :cool:


Lawyer? :hmm:.....

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:01 PM
And I, yours! ;)

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:01 PM
Haha, yes of course a case can be made for anything.

My point as Jeffreys made clear was that of course a fictional story can be used as a tool to teach. The parables of the Bible make that quite clear.

The usefulness of a parable is not in whether it is factual account or not, but in the meaning. The fact that Santa is not real is inconsequential. No sane adult believes in Santa. Every child will eventually learn that Santa is a myth and the only question is when. The usefulness of Santa is to teach children lessons in a way that is fun and easy for them to understand.

When I read this, I heard Dr. Evil's voice in my head. LOL! It is the word inconsequential. Every time I hear it I think of the story he tells about his childhood.

PS. I totally agree with you *snaps*

Mograce2U
Nov 26th 2007, 05:01 PM
"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."
...

:o Santa better not reveal anything to me!!!
Perhaps it is because we cannot see the forest for the trees that we do not recognize what is going on here. The majority of the OT is dealing with Israel's propensity to idolatry, yet we in the NT seem to think we are above such things, even though the same warnings are found there. An idol begins in the heart and mind long before a statue is made to represent it. It is a perverted view of God based upon one's own imagination rather than the word of God which reveals Him to us. If Santa can represent Jesus to us, then we are in big trouble. However, if you can see that Satan is who he represents, then you are in good place to throw these things away and have nothing more to do with them.

For all the warnings that Israel received about turning away from their idols, most of them failed to have ears to hear it. Their response to the prophets was "what did we do?" In fact things went so well for them when they baked cakes to the queen of heaven that they decided they would keep doing it and get rid of Jeremiah instead who warned them of judgment coming. The glory of God prevailed but neither they nor their idols did.

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 05:07 PM
When I read this, I heard Dr. Evil's voice in my head. LOL! It is the word inconsequential. Every time I hear it I think of the story he tells about his childhood.

PS. I totally agree with you *snaps*

:lol: Wow, we really are on the same wavelength. I was about to type "quite inconsequential" and I thought "Naw, sounds like Dr. Evil."

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:08 PM
If a person is idolizing a tree or Santa I might (very loosely) be able to see your point, but that is just not the case. I do not know anyone who worships either. The simple point of the matter is that a few of you feel enlightened. You think your version of things is the right way (be careful, someone else once thought this too) and you try to convince people to follow your lead by bludgeoning them with your opinions and your scriptural evidence (which Jeffrey refuted several times). When I read your posts I can honestly understand why the secular community thinks Christianity is hokey. Being so extreme either way is not healthy. I do not have any scripture to back it up, it is just my gut instinct (I cannot wait to see the posts where you tear this to shreds). Jesus himself told us that he has many flocks and many folds. Who is ANYONE to say that their way is the right way?

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:09 PM
Lawyer? :hmm:.....

I plead the Fifth. ;) :D

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:09 PM
:lol: Wow, we really are on the same wavelength. I was about to type "quite inconsequential" and I thought "Naw, sounds like Dr. Evil."

That is too funny! You need a well developed sense of humor around these parts ;) Ba da bum, ching!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:11 PM
And I, yours! ;)

Oops...that was meant for I<3....

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:14 PM
Woohoo! Someone likes my posts. Just so everyone is aware, I have a really jovial sense of self. While most of you seem to get your knickers in a twist fighting demons like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, I am really just trying to inject some humor and clarity into the conversation at hand.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 05:14 PM
Whoa, who are you to expose anyone else's sin?

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.



Do you have a magic machine that allows you to see into a person's heart?

It's not too difficult to spot a lie. However, the Holy Spirit can look into the heart of another, and He can certainly reveal that to us if He so chooses. How do you think Peter knew that Ananias and Sapphira were trying to deceive the Holy Spirit in Acts 5?


How about their thoughts?

See above.


You are very self righteous.

Being that telling children that Santa Clause is real is indeed a lie, well . . . if that's your definition of self-righteous then I suppose I am guilty.


Throughout this thread you have been passing judgment left and right.

If calling a sin a sin when it is indeed so is passing judgment, well . . . I suppose I am guilty there as well. However, my conscience is definitely clear on the matter.


You have been making a lot of assumptions about others. I would be careful if I were you.

Deceiving children into believing something that is not true is not an assumption. It's happening all the time, and it's happening by many folks who have been given clear instruction not to lie to others.

As for your warning to be careful . . . again, I have a clear conscience.

Matthew
Nov 26th 2007, 05:15 PM
I plead the Fifth. ;) :D

:lol: Thought so.

I'm in law school now so I didn't mean that as a bad thing.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:20 PM
Perhaps it is because we cannot see the forest for the trees that we do not recognize what is going on here. [quote]

Or perhaps it is simply because "thou dost protest too much." :rolleyes:

[quote] If Santa can represent Jesus to us, then we are in big trouble.

I agree wholeheartedly. Please identify the person in this thread who has taken such a position, as they should be posting in the forum for non-christians. :P

(...oh wait....no one has!)

Vertical, I don't think anyone here is advocating that we worship Santa. Can we agree on that, at least??

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:22 PM
Woohoo! Someone likes my posts. Just so everyone is aware, I have a really jovial sense of self. While most of you seem to get your knickers in a twist fighting demons like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, I am really just trying to inject some humor and clarity into the conversation at hand.

I totally would have repped you for that...but, alas, I must spread some first.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:25 PM
:lol: Thought so.

I'm in law school now so I didn't mean that as a bad thing.

Awesomeness! Best 'o' luck to you! We should start another thread to chat about that.. ;):D

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:26 PM
Wow VR - All I have to say is that I will pray for you. It seems to me that your heart is hardened to anything EXCEPT for what you believe to be true. You say that we are to correct others, but what makes you above correction? Have you ever heard the old phrase people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? You seem too smug and self assured for me. That is what I believe is the direct opposite of what a Christian is supposed to be. Show me anywhere in this thread where you have loved those whom you do not agree with. In fact, answer the questions I posed on the previous page. I am not trying to attack you, but I do not understand any of the people on this site who post as if they are above reproach.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 05:34 PM
Sadly, i must get back to the brief i am writing which must be filed in federal court before close of biz. I will check in later, y'all!

And a special hug to Vertical! :hug: You aggravate the heck outta me, brother, but then I'm quite certain that I sometimes have that effect on others too... :blush:

so.... maybe we should all :pray: for a touch more humility, eh?

God bless! :cool:

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 05:43 PM
so.... maybe we should all :pray: for a touch more humility, eh?

That is a great idea!

Tanya~
Nov 26th 2007, 05:52 PM
If a person is idolizing a tree or Santa I might (very loosely) be able to see your point, but that is just not the case. I do not know anyone who worships either.

Children do idolize Santa.


When I read your posts I can honestly understand why the secular community thinks Christianity is hokey.

There is another side to that. Many non-Christians consider Christianity to be 'hokey' as you put it, because they see how much paganism is embraced by Christians, and when the truth about these things is exposed, Christians make excuses for why these non-Christian additions shouldn't be rejected.


Being so extreme either way is not healthy.

To reject idolatry in all it's guises may not seem healthy from a secular point of view, but from God's point of view, He does indeed call us to come out completely from the love of the world. The Scriptural point of view IS extreme.


1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.


1 Cor 10:14-22
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry . 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.

18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?


2 Cor 6:14-7:1

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God.

As God has said:
"I will dwell in them And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."

17 Therefore
"Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."
18'I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty."

2 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
For some reason, in the minds of many, it really doesn't matter that Santa Claus is a false god. It has evolved to fit more comfortably with modern American consumerism, but the nature of it is still what it is. It is the same with all the paganism that has evolved to fit into modern life. We tend to think of ourselves as a culture as beyond and above all of that, and don't even recognize that we worship all the same things that the ancients did.

The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is all celebrated with great enthusiasm at Christmas time, Christian or not. We are, in joining in with this very worldly celebration, yoking ourselves with unbelievers in a common worship festival that lasts more than a month. We are celebrating exactly the same things and performing exactly the same rituals that the unbelievers do, except we add Christ to it.

Yet most of us deny that this is so, and get extremely upset if anyone would suggest that there might be something wrong with it.

But what we're doing is not really all that different than Israel and the golden calf. They put the name of YHWH on it, and made their celebration a feast to YHWH. Perhaps Aaron thought that it would be okay as long as they did it "as unto the Lord." They were wrong.

Jesus never condemned the Pharisees for rejecting idolatry. He condemned them for imposing traditions on the people that God had not imposed -- traditions that negated God's intent in the law. The early believers in Christ, especially the churches of the Gentiles, were given freedom from having to observe festivals and holy days. Paul even warned them against taking these kinds of things on as a burden:


Gal 4:8-11
But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

I do not have any scripture to back it up, it is just my gut instinct (I cannot wait to see the posts where you tear this to shreds).

Do you think it is reasonable to follow our gut instinct, when we seek to follow the Lord? Or would it be better to seek His will and follow that?


Isa 55:6-9

6 Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways ," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Jesus himself told us that he has many flocks and many folds. Who is ANYONE to say that their way is the right way?

Nobody's way is the right way. Jesus is the way. The idea isn't to follow your way or my way, it is for all of us to follow His way. He is the Good Shepherd.

BTW He didn't say He had many flocks and many folds. This is what He said:


John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

The Jews were not the only fold, the Gentiles also were to be brought in, and we would be one flock, with one Shepherd, Jesus.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 06:06 PM
Vertical, I don't think anyone here is advocating that we worship Santa. Can we agree on that, at least??

I've never made the assertion that anyone was worshipping Santa Clause. I don't even have a problem with folks playing the Santa Clause bit as long as they are upfront and honest about it. It's the lie that I do not approve of. If parents are honest with their children and remove the lie then there is no problem, IMO.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 06:19 PM
Wow VR - All I have to say is that I will pray for you.

Genuine prayer to the Father out of love and compassion toward another believer is always welcome with me. Commenting about praying for others in an attempt to demoralize them in a discussion because your own position is not sitting well with the Word is not welcome with me, and the thought is just downright unChrist-like. Again, my conscience is completely clear on this issue. I do not approve of lying, and at no time will I apologize for speaking out against it.


It seems to me that your heart is hardened to anything EXCEPT for what you believe to be true.

This is not an issue of what "I" believe to be true. It's what the Word says. If you have issue with that then your issue is not with me but with God's Word.


You say that we are to correct others, but what makes you above correction?

At no time have I stated I'm above correction. I accept correction all the time if it is biblically based. In addition, I'm not the one in this topic approving of a lie. I'm the one in opposition to such a suggestion. Therefore, as I've told you already, my conscience is indeed clear on the issue.



Have you ever heard the old phrase people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

And if I were lying to my children about the existence of some mythological character I certainly wouldn't be saying anything here. That would make me a hypocrite. As Jesus said, first remove the log from your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


You seem too smug and self assured for me. That is what I believe is the direct opposite of what a Christian is supposed to be.

I don't approach the acceptance of sin with much tolerance. Especially from those who have been instructed to abstain from it as much as possible. Partaking of it deliberately makes it that much worse.


Show me anywhere in this thread where you have loved those whom you do not agree with.

By giving the truth. It would be awfully easy to go with the crowd on this one and accept the widely held practice of lying to children. However, I will go the other route that the Word instructs, and that is to be honest to others and not try and deceive with false testimony.


In fact, answer the questions I posed on the previous page. I am not trying to attack you, but I do not understand any of the people on this site who post as if they are above reproach.

What questions?

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 06:25 PM
And a special hug to Vertical! :hug: You aggravate the heck outta me, brother, but then I'm quite certain that I sometimes have that effect on others too... :blush:

I'm not aggravated at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I've learned over time that not everything is going to be accepted right off the bat. It was the same for me just as everyone else. However, I must continue to speak truth regardless of the opposition. I wouldn't be doing anyone any favors by preaching the acceptance of dishonesty. I have to answer to the Lord . . . not to folks who disagree with me on this forum.

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 06:48 PM
I've never made the assertion that anyone was worshipping Santa Clause. I don't even have a problem with folks playing the Santa Clause bit as long as they are upfront and honest about it. It's the lie that I do not approve of. If parents are honest with their children and remove the lie then there is no problem, IMO.

You know what? You are right...I meant Mograce2U!!! I just went back and reread your posts (and mine...and Mograce's...) and just realized that I was confusing you and Mo. :o

(Darn it! That is TWICE now I've done that!....did it to Bro Mark earlier....) Please forgive my error, Vertical. You have only ever made the assertion that telling your kids that Santa is real is a "lie" and lying behavior is sin and is inappropriate for a Christian to model to their children. I actually *agree* with that! Wholeheartedly! :blush:

It was Mo that made some weird connection between Santa and Jesus ....

Okay, y'all. If there is a "rubber chicken" award for this board, I nominate myself! :lol::P

(Yet one more evidence that it is better for me to keep me own trap shut...) LOL!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 06:51 PM
I'm not aggravated at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I've learned over time that not everything is going to be accepted right off the bat. It was the same for me just as everyone else. However, I must continue to speak truth regardless of the opposition. I wouldn't be doing anyone any favors by preaching the acceptance of dishonesty. I have to answer to the Lord . . . not to folks who disagree with me on this forum.

Had to give some PR for this post....very gracious response....especially since *you* weren't the one that was aggravating me! DOH! :eek:

:blush: (i feel stupid) LOL!

MMC
Nov 26th 2007, 06:55 PM
[quote=Mograce2U;1451414]Perhaps it is because we cannot see the forest for the trees that we do not recognize what is going on here. [quote]

Or perhaps it is simply because "thou dost protest too much." :rolleyes:



I agree wholeheartedly. Please identify the person in this thread who has taken such a position, as they should be posting in the forum for non-christians. :P

(...oh wait....no one has!)

Vertical, I don't think anyone here is advocating that we worship Santa. Can we agree on that, at least??

Herein lies my error! :rofl: Notice who I quote at the top, then address at the bottom!!!

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 06:56 PM
First of all, I normally do not respond to walls of text. There are shorter ways to get your point across, but I will play this one time.


Children do idolize Santa.

That is what you say, but I do not think that is the case. At least not with any of the children I know.


There is another side to that. Many non-Christians consider Christianity to be 'hokey' as you put it, because they see how much paganism is embraced by Christians, and when the truth about these things is exposed, Christians make excuses for why these non-Christian additions shouldn't be rejected.

I do not believe it is paganism, but if one were to argue that it was I were to play "devil's advocate" I would say I believe it to be paganism if and only if that is a person's motivation.


To reject idolatry in all it's guises may not seem healthy from a secular point of view, but from God's point of view, He does indeed call us to come out completely from the love of the world. The Scriptural point of view IS extreme.

You are assuming that people are making idols of Santa and the tree and that is just ludicrous especially since the people in this thread have said time and time again that is not the case.


For some reason, in the minds of many, it really doesn't matter that Santa Claus is a false god.

Again, that is YOUR opinion. I do not know of anyone whom considers Santa a God. Don't project your skewed opinion as the truth because that is dangerous.


It has evolved to fit more comfortably with modern American consumerism, but the nature of it is still what it is.

I agree with the consumerism, but I do not fall into that trap. It is easy to steer clear from it. What is the nature of Christmas pray tell?


It is the same with all the paganism that has evolved to fit into modern life. We tend to think of ourselves as a culture as beyond and above all of that, and don't even recognize that we worship all the same things that the ancients did.

I only worship the Lord, so I haven't the foggiest clue what you are getting at besides conjecture.


The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is all celebrated with great enthusiasm at Christmas time, Christian or not. We are, in joining in with this very worldly celebration, yoking ourselves with unbelievers in a common worship festival that lasts more than a month. We are celebrating exactly the same things and performing exactly the same rituals that the unbelievers do, except we add Christ to it.

Again with the heavily opinion laden projection. You do not know what I celebrate, you do not know what is in my heart. You are assuming again (remember what they say about assuming). I do not perform ANY rituals nor do I worship anything other than the Lord at Christmas time.


Yet most of us deny that this is so, and get extremely upset if anyone would suggest that there might be something wrong with it.

I get upset that a select few of you have decided that you are the judge, jury and executioner of all things Christmas. Of what, why and how people chose to celebrate that day.


But what we're doing is not really all that different than Israel and the golden calf.

That is just silly.


Do you think it is reasonable to follow our gut instinct, when we seek to follow the Lord? Or would it be better to seek His will and follow that?

My gut instinct comes from many hours in prayer about a subject. Do not sit there and act as if you know anything about me or my relationship with the Lord.


Nobody's way is the right way. Jesus is the way. The idea isn't to follow your way or my way, it is for all of us to follow His way. He is the Good Shepherd.

Well some of you sound more like you are subscribing to your own propaganda.


BTW He didn't say He had many flocks and many folds. This is what He said:

John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The Jews were not the only fold, the Gentiles also were to be brought in, and we would be one flock, with one Shepherd, Jesus.

That is not what I was referring to. At least I do not think so. It was something my pastor said to me when I brought up a lot of the things I find incredibly ridiculous on this site.

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 06:59 PM
On that note, I am done with this thread. I find myself completely flabbergasted by some of the people posting. I work hard to align myself with the will of God, not with the will of a few people who think they know all. People like that scare me more than those who know nothing about the scripture at all.

VerticalReality
Nov 26th 2007, 07:00 PM
You know what? You are right...I meant Mograce2U!!! I just went back and reread your posts (and mine...and Mograce's...) and just realized that I was confusing you and Mo. :o

(Darn it! That is TWICE now I've done that!....did it to Bro Mark earlier....) Please forgive my error, Vertical. You have only ever made the assertion that telling your kids that Santa is real is a "lie" and lying behavior is sin and is inappropriate for a Christian to model to their children. I actually *agree* with that! Wholeheartedly! :blush:

It was Mo that made some weird connection between Santa and Jesus ....

Okay, y'all. If there is a "rubber chicken" award for this board, I nominate myself! :lol::P

(Yet one more evidence that it is better for me to keep me own trap shut...) LOL!

It's no problem at all, MMC. It happens to us all from time to time.

Tanya~
Nov 26th 2007, 07:30 PM
I <3,

I'm not condemning you or anyone else. The point in this forum is to allow both sides to present their views, no? Not everyone is cut out for the controversial topics, and I can only take so much of it myself. But it appeared to me that a little more balance was needed on the "con Santa" side and since I fall on that side, well... :)

I'm not against any Christian who chooses to act according to their own conscience, and according to their own convictions that they have come to as a result of their personal study of the facts, of the Scriptures, and seeking God on the issue. My point is only to encourage people to do that. Sometimes we take things for granted, and we keep traditions and do rituals without questioning them or even thinking about what they mean, what the origins are, how they affect our souls, and how it fits or doesn't fit with a Biblical faith. Some reading the thread have rejected the traditions as unBiblical. Some have embraced them and consider that they have freedom to do so and are clear on the matter in their own conscience. But some are doing things and they don't really know why, except for the fact that these things have always been done and they simply have never questioned it. I promise, you aren't being attacked.

1 Thess 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

I pointed out the issue of the golden calf to counter the idea that it doesn't matter what we do, so long as we have the attitude that it is for God. I don't think that's true, and maybe some who are reading would be willing to consider that perspective.

If nobody says anything, then the idea goes unchallenged. In contro it's OK to challenge things.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 07:38 PM
No, the disciples were not always clear that they were parables.

Ironically, even as Jesus spoke, there were people standing around accusing him of lying, and being a liar. And his accusers were absolutely convinced that they were 100% right, and were doing everything right. ;)This may be coming from left field but where in the Bible do you read that people around Jesus called Him a liar because they felt something He said was untrue? The only thing I can think of that might even come close is where He tells them that before Abraham was, I AM, and they are like you're not old enough..blah, blah, blah, but that was the truth. Jesus always told the truth. It still surprises me that it seems many believers truly believe it is okay to be dishonest. :o Oh well. Enjoy your holiday, and God Bless!

I<3Jesus
Nov 26th 2007, 07:57 PM
I <3,

I'm not condemning you or anyone else. The point in this forum is to allow both sides to present their views, no? Not everyone is cut out for the controversial topics, and I can only take so much of it myself. But it appeared to me that a little more balance was needed on the "con Santa" side and since I fall on that side, well... :)

I'm not against any Christian who chooses to act according to their own conscience, and according to their own convictions that they have come to as a result of their personal study of the facts, of the Scriptures, and seeking God on the issue. My point is only to encourage people to do that. Sometimes we take things for granted, and we keep traditions and do rituals without questioning them or even thinking about what they mean, what the origins are, how they affect our souls, and how it fits or doesn't fit with a Biblical faith. Some reading the thread have rejected the traditions as unBiblical. Some have embraced them and consider that they have freedom to do so and are clear on the matter in their own conscience. But some are doing things and they don't really know why, except for the fact that these things have always been done and they simply have never questioned it. I promise, you aren't being attacked.

1 Thess 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

I pointed out the issue of the golden calf to counter the idea that it doesn't matter what we do, so long as we have the attitude that it is for God. I don't think that's true, and maybe some who are reading would be willing to consider that perspective.

If nobody says anything, then the idea goes unchallenged. In contro it's OK to challenge things.

Word, I apologize for getting cranky. I am going to take a break from the thread and talk to my pastor and pray about the topic at hand. Thank you.

SIG
Nov 26th 2007, 08:01 PM
Random thought: Missionaries will use the myths of a people group to help teach the Gospel (as in "Peace Child"). In this way, God uses what is not quite true to bring people to the truth of Christ.

It seems it would be quite easy, if talking to a non-believing child, to explain that Santa is really a symbol for an even greater Giver. Begin with Santa, go on to Jesus.

"For we know that God works all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes."

In a believer's home, children need to know the difference between Santa and Jesus.

At the same time, Santa can be an evangelical opportunity. God allows us to use all things (as examples) as an inroad to the Kingdom.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 08:19 PM
Random thought: Missionaries will use the myths of a people group to help teach the Gospel (as in "Peace Child"). In this way, God uses what is not quite true to bring people to the truth of Christ.

It seems it would be quite easy, if talking to a non-believing child, to explain that Santa is really a symbol for an even greater Giver. Begin with Santa, go on to Jesus.

"For we know that God works all things together for the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes."

In a believer's home, children need to know the difference between Santa and Jesus.

At the same time, Santa can be an evangelical opportunity. God allows us to use all things (as examples) as an inroad to the Kingdom.So, in the case of believers (not unbelievers), do you fall in the category of sure tell your kids he's real and lives in the North Pole with Rudolph or the category of let them have their fantasy but when they ask be truthful and explain where the myth comes from and how you see it applying to Christ? :hmm:

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 08:22 PM
Children do idolize Santa.

Some children do but not all of them do. Actually, I don't know of any child, personally, that ever idolized Santa. Though I am sure I could find one if I looked hard enough.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 26th 2007, 08:26 PM
Some children do but not all of them do. Actually, I don't know of any child, personally, that ever idolized Santa. Though I am sure I could find one if I looked hard enough.I've heard of kids praying to Santa. As in asking for a little brother or for a new bike or something. :hmm:

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 08:28 PM
I've heard of kids praying to Santa. As in asking for a little brother or for a new bike or something. :hmm:

Yea, that would be wrong to pray to Santa. Until now, I had never heard of it before. For sure I have never witnessed it.

Tanya~
Nov 26th 2007, 08:33 PM
Random thought: Missionaries will use the myths of a people group to help teach the Gospel (as in "Peace Child"). In this way, God uses what is not quite true to bring people to the truth of Christ.

It seems it would be quite easy, if talking to a non-believing child, to explain that Santa is really a symbol for an even greater Giver. Begin with Santa, go on to Jesus.

Paul pointed to the altar to the Unknown God and taught the men at Athens about Jesus. He had a small measure of success, but it was still a legitimate use of something that they could relate to. But Paul didn't do anything with the altar. He didn't actually tell them that it was REALLY a symbol for the true God, and the people of Athens just didn't know it. He put no sacrifice on it, he didn't make replicas of it to bring into the churches and have Christians use it as the Athenians did, adapting it so that it could be "unto the Living God."

The difference is do we use the pagan things to point unbelievers to God (yes), or do we embrace the pagan things and adapt them into our worship of God? (no) There's a big difference between the two, though some don't draw that line.

Neo Pagans laugh at us Christians who (while usually rejecting the idea of religious images) have images of Santa in their homes, alongside the images of Baby Jesus, the Yule Tree, the mistletoe, and all the other stuff of the "Old Religion." It's a mishmash. They laugh that we go around talking about "The REAL reason for the season." They know that the Christians didn't have Christmas, a winter festival, a birthday celebration for Jesus, a Santa Claus, or any of their customs for hundreds of years after Christ was born.

The fact that we Christians seem to feel a need for such things -- that we would borrow their customs, adapt them to suit us, and add them to what the Bible commands -- affirms their own belief that their religion is superior and more complete, more satisfying, as well as being older than ours.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 09:55 PM
Neo Pagans laugh at us Christians who (while usually rejecting the idea of religious images) have images of Santa in their homes, alongside the images of Baby Jesus, the Yule Tree, the mistletoe, and all the other stuff of the "Old Religion." It's a mishmash. They laugh that we go around talking about "The REAL reason for the season." They know that the Christians didn't have Christmas, a winter festival, a birthday celebration for Jesus, a Santa Claus, or any of their customs for hundreds of years after Christ was born.

People have laughed at Christians for eons for all kinds of reasons. That argument won't sway too many folks. Jesus was called a wine bibber and a glutton while JTB was accused of having a demon. It didn't matter. They are looking for something to accuse anyway.


The fact that we Christians seem to feel a need for such things -- that we would borrow their customs, adapt them to suit us, and add them to what the Bible commands -- affirms their own belief that their religion is superior and more complete, more satisfying, as well as being older than ours.


They are self deceived. Redeeming their customs might be a better word than borrowing. ;)

Here's the problem I have with this line of thinking....

Very few, if any, secular folks in the US see anything pagan in Santa at all. We have to go looking for it. To say that we can't witness to pagans because of Christmas doesn't do justice to where pagans are at today. They are such a minority. Many more people are witnessed to through Christmas year in and year out than probably the entire neo pagan population in the whole world.

I personally know several believers that witness during Christmas time using as examples all the Christmas stuff the world supplies.

Lying? Clearly wrong. But we have to go looking and digging to find satanic or pagan like rituals in Santa. It is far more secular today than worshipful in the US. Now, if it was worshiped here, that would be a cat of a different color. But it's not.

jeffreys
Nov 26th 2007, 10:07 PM
Neo Pagans laugh at us Christians who (while usually rejecting the idea of religious images) have images of Santa in their homes, alongside the images of Baby Jesus, the Yule Tree, the mistletoe, and all the other stuff of the "Old Religion." It's a mishmash. They laugh that we go around talking about "The REAL reason for the season." They know that the Christians didn't have Christmas, a winter festival, a birthday celebration for Jesus, a Santa Claus, or any of their customs for hundreds of years after Christ was born.

How do you know that? Have you been talking to a lot of neo-pagans lately? :hmm:

jiggyfly
Nov 26th 2007, 10:19 PM
Yeah, okay. I'm probably going to hell for that too! :lol:
Nice sarcasm:pp:lol::bounce::rofl:

CrunchyChristian
Nov 27th 2007, 01:22 AM
How do you know that? Have you been talking to a lot of neo-pagans lately? :hmm:

I was one for about 7 years, and I can confirm what Tanya said. We used to roll our eyes and laugh at Christians because what they were actually celebrating was "our" holiday. They were just sticking Jesus in the middle.

It's kind of like having a table covered in dirt, and then putting a vase of beautiful flowers on top and thinking that makes it all better. In my humble opinion of course.

But we digress. This discussion is about Santa and how he is wrong. I have one last thing to say...

Proverbs 12:2

Lying lips are an abomination (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abomination) to the LORD,
But those who deal truthfully are His delight.







;););)

Mograce2U
Nov 27th 2007, 02:48 AM
Yea, that would be wrong to pray to Santa. Until now, I had never heard of it before. For sure I have never witnessed it.Try Google and read the letters written to him where children make promises to be good.. it doesn't have to be "heads bowed & eyes closed".

Brother Mark
Nov 27th 2007, 02:55 AM
Try Google and read the letters written to him where children make promises to be good.. it doesn't have to be "heads bowed & eyes closed".

I have already acknowledge the abuse. Doesn't mean that all worship him nor does it mean all pray to him. Many things get abused in life, including Santa.

Tanya~
Nov 27th 2007, 03:33 AM
Redeeming their customs might be a better word than borrowing. ;)

It sounds like a nice idea, but there is no Biblical basis for redeeming Pagan customs for Christian use. People are redeemed out of paganism, pagan customs aren't redeemed. Paul in Galatians 4 teaches the people not to bring themselves into that kind of bondage.



Very few, if any, secular folks in the US see anything pagan in Santa at all. We have to go looking for it. Most people just blindly go along with what the rest of the world is doing. I don't personally think that's a virtue. As Christians, we aren't of the world -- or at least we're not supposed to be. Just because people don't openly acknowledge that the whole Santa thing is idolatry, doesn't change the fact that that's exactly what it is.



To say that we can't witness to pagans because of Christmas doesn't do justice to where pagans are at today. That's not what I'm saying Mark. :) Christians can witness to Pagans. But trying to do so with Christmas just doesn't come across as very credible to them. They are often better educated about these things than most Christians and we just end up looking foolish. To go up to a Pagan and point to his Yule tree and try to tell him that "Jesus is the reason for the season" just makes no sense. It's better to witness to them with the unadulterated gospel. It has power to save all by itself, and doesn't need any kind of Pagan embellishment to make it more attractive to the lost.

Allegra
Nov 27th 2007, 03:46 AM
I've never heard anyone tell me they felt that way either. I just think it's a little over the top to say that kids finding out Santa Claus isn't real has such a dramatic affect on their lives. Yeah, they may cry for that day, but their lives? Really? I am yet to hear of anything like that.
I agree with you on the "over the top" affect on children's lives. If a parent knows they have a sensitive child, they should lighten up on the drama of the "naughty or nice" issue.
I think the concept of Santa Clause should be told with a slight humorous touch.
This way when the child finds out it's really Mommy & Daddy, they'll probably have caught on to your act, & fake you out in some way.:o

Studyin'2Show
Nov 27th 2007, 10:52 AM
It's better to witness to them with the unadulterated gospel. It has power to save all by itself, and doesn't need any kind of Pagan embellishment to make it more attractive to the lost.:agree: God's word will not return void! It is what is sure! It is what will stand forever! No additives required! :lol:

Brother Mark
Nov 27th 2007, 02:07 PM
It sounds like a nice idea, but there is no Biblical basis for redeeming Pagan customs for Christian use. People are redeemed out of paganism, pagan customs aren't redeemed. Paul in Galatians 4 teaches the people not to bring themselves into that kind of bondage.

Here's the problem, Paul said some value one day above another some value all days the same and they do so, unto the Lord.

Moses had a rod that was full of the serpent. He had to lay it down. But when God told him to pick it back up, it became the rod of God. The rod was redeemed.

God made all days. If someone wants to celebrate the birth of Christ unto the Lord, then that is fine and biblical according to Romans. If others do not, then they do not unto the Lord and that is fine and biblical.

Santa has never been and never will be pagan for millions of believers. I don't endorse him nor will I lie about him. On the other hand, I won't say he is wrong because some pagan wants to claim him either.

If pagans wish to celebrate winter soltice (or whatever it is) on a particular day and dedicate it to Satan, or the pagan God, or whatever else they do with it, I can take that same exact day, that was created by God, and clean in the beginning, and celebrate it unto him. People that want to go back to the beginning of a day, generally don't go back far enough in my opinion. God made all the days and we can rejoice and be glad in them. If we choose to celebrate, especially, and exalt one day above another unto the Lord, we have the liberty to do so in Christ according to Romans.

Why leave the pagans a day at all? They all belong to God in the beginning and now.

Joyfilled
Nov 27th 2007, 02:13 PM
No real verses here, but a bit of info that just popped in my head... My moms old friend Emily told my mom this years ago. (This is the woman that said I was annoited from the womb.)

http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/SantaClause.html

A piece taken from the info.

SANTA IS COMING SOON
During the Christmas season it is emphasized over and over that "Santa is coming".
JESUS CHRIST IS COMING SOON
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Rev. 22:20)

SANTA IS OMNISCIENT
Children are taught that Santa "knows when you've been good, and he knows when you've been bad".
JESUS CHRIST IS OMNISCIENT
"The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good." (Pro. 15:3) "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?" (Mat. 9:4)

And atheists chastize us for lying to our children. :lol: It's very obvious that atheists don't mind telling lies to their children. ;)

Studyin'2Show
Nov 27th 2007, 02:21 PM
And atheists chastize us for lying to our children. :lol: It's very obvious that atheists don't mind telling lies to their children. ;)So, it's okay for us to lie to our kids because atheists do? :hmm:

threebigrocks
Nov 27th 2007, 02:34 PM
Here's the problem, Paul said some value one day above another some value all days the same and they do so, unto the Lord.

Moses had a rod that was full of the serpent. He had to lay it down. But when God told him to pick it back up, it became the rod of God. The rod was redeemed.

God made all days. If someone wants to celebrate the birth of Christ unto the Lord, then that is fine and biblical according to Romans. If others do not, then they do not unto the Lord and that is fine and biblical.

Santa has never been and never will be pagan for millions of believers. I don't endorse him nor will I lie about him. On the other hand, I won't say he is wrong because some pagan wants to claim him either.

If pagans wish to celebrate winter soltice (or whatever it is) on a particular day and dedicate it to Satan, or the pagan God, or whatever else they do with it, I can take that same exact day, that was created by God, and clean in the beginning, and celebrate it unto him. People that want to go back to the beginning of a day, generally don't go back far enough in my opinion. God made all the days and we can rejoice and be glad in them. If we choose to celebrate, especially, and exalt one day above another unto the Lord, we have the liberty to do so in Christ according to Romans.

Why leave the pagans a day at all? They all belong to God in the beginning and now.


That was running through my mind yesterday Mark and I just couldn't pull the scripture out of my head! I agree. We celebrate Christmas in a different time in a different culture far removed from it's original origins. Sure, some don't revere it anymore than the pagans did but those of us who do use it for the Lord are not celebrating a pagan holiday.

VerticalReality
Nov 27th 2007, 04:06 PM
Here's the problem, Paul said some value one day above another some value all days the same and they do so, unto the Lord.

Moses had a rod that was full of the serpent. He had to lay it down. But when God told him to pick it back up, it became the rod of God. The rod was redeemed.

God made all days. If someone wants to celebrate the birth of Christ unto the Lord, then that is fine and biblical according to Romans. If others do not, then they do not unto the Lord and that is fine and biblical.

Santa has never been and never will be pagan for millions of believers. I don't endorse him nor will I lie about him. On the other hand, I won't say he is wrong because some pagan wants to claim him either.

If pagans wish to celebrate winter soltice (or whatever it is) on a particular day and dedicate it to Satan, or the pagan God, or whatever else they do with it, I can take that same exact day, that was created by God, and clean in the beginning, and celebrate it unto him. People that want to go back to the beginning of a day, generally don't go back far enough in my opinion. God made all the days and we can rejoice and be glad in them. If we choose to celebrate, especially, and exalt one day above another unto the Lord, we have the liberty to do so in Christ according to Romans.

Why leave the pagans a day at all? They all belong to God in the beginning and now.

I agree, Brother Mark. Good post!

CrunchyChristian
Nov 27th 2007, 06:21 PM
Moses had a rod that was full of the serpent. He had to lay it down. But when God told him to pick it back up, it became the rod of God. The rod was redeemed.

Yes, God redeemed that rod through Moses. He told Moses to pick it up. Did God tell us to pick up the pagan festival? If anything He has told us to stay far away from their traditions. I say we redeem the day for the Lord, but leave the pagan traditions out of it and not try to make it seem like it is anything but a day for the Lord. Why must we mirror it unto the pagan festival? We are in the world, but not of it.

And for what it's worth, I don't believe that Santa is pagan at all. Everything else about Christmas is though. ;)

Frances
Nov 27th 2007, 06:36 PM
The dangers of Father Christmas

I agree that parents should be telling their children the truth - that Father Christmas was born in 280AD in Patara, in Asia Minor and called Nicholas. He bacame a Christian and later the Bishopof Myra. He was rich and travelled the country giving gifts to poor people, and telling them he did so because God loved them so much that He came to earth as Jesus Christ at Christmas etc.etc.
In 303AD the Roman Emporer Diocletian commanded all in the Roman Empire to worship him as a god. Nicholas, as well as other Christians, refused, so was imprisoned in as small cell for 5 years. When Constantine came to power in 313AD he was released.
By 450 churches in Asia Minor and Greece were being named in honour of him. By 800 he was officially called a Saint. He bacame famous in Europe too, the Dutch called him Sinter Klass, which became Santa Clause when the Dutch went to America.

Tanya~
Nov 27th 2007, 06:38 PM
Moses had a rod that was full of the serpent. He had to lay it down. But when God told him to pick it back up, it became the rod of God. The rod was redeemed.

:confused That's not how the story goes.

Ex 4:1-5
Then Moses answered and said, "But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, 'The LORD has not appeared to you.'"

2 So the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?"

He said, "A rod."

3 And He said, "Cast it on the ground." So he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail" (and he reached out his hand and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand), 5 "that they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you."

Ex 7:8-13
Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9 "When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Show a miracle for yourselves,' then you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.'" 10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
The rod was not a pagan thing that Moses redeemed. It was his rod, and God gave him power to do this sign with the rod. Moses' rod was not "full of the serpent."



Why leave the pagans a day at all? They all belong to God in the beginning and now.It's not the day, but the rituals. :)

Anyway, that's enough on this for me. :) Peace to you all.

Brother Mark
Nov 27th 2007, 06:46 PM
:confused That's not how the story goes.
Ex 4:1-5
Then Moses answered and said, "But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, 'The LORD has not appeared to you.'"

2 So the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?"

He said, "A rod."

3 And He said, "Cast it on the ground." So he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail" (and he reached out his hand and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand), 5 "that they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you."

Ex 7:8-13
Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 9 "When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Show a miracle for yourselves,' then you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.'" 10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. 13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
The rod was not a pagan thing that Moses redeemed. It was his rod, and God gave him power to do this sign with the rod. Moses' rod was not "full of the serpent."


It's not the day, but the rituals. :)

Anyway, that's enough on this for me. :) Peace to you all.

For me, the lesson of the rod is a valuable one. Many things in my life God uses now that at one time were used by and for the enemy. I did not know it until he told me to lay it down. Then I saw the snake and fled! But God then says to us "pick it back up in my name" and it becomes his. As long as we own something, the serpent is in it. But when we lay it down, it can become the Lord's.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 27th 2007, 06:51 PM
But when we lay it down, it can become the Lord's.

Exactly. :D

IMO, we need to lay down the day, and not pick it up unless the Lord specifically asks us too. Did He ask us to celebrate His birthday? Did He ask us to use the ways of the pagans to celebrate it? No.

In the end, it is a conviction of the heart. What is said on this thread will only get people so far. It's between them and God on what is their own conviction.

Brother Mark
Nov 27th 2007, 06:55 PM
Exactly. :D

IMO, we need to lay down the day, and not pick it up unless the Lord specifically asks us too. Did He ask us to celebrate His birthday?

Depends on who you ask. Hence, Romans about some days held higher to the Lord and some days all the same unto the Lord. He ask different things of people about such things. We know not what the Lord tells another to do unless scripture clearly says one way or the other.


In the end, it is a conviction of the heart. What is said on this thread will only get people so far. It's between them and God on what is their own conviction.
Exactly! Romans at work.