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itsafreegift
Nov 25th 2007, 03:38 AM
There is verse somewhere in the Old Testament about decorating a tree. Someone showed it to me years ago but I can't remember where it is and I can't find it anywhere. I do realize that the context of the verse may not have anything to do with the Christmas tree, but I've heard it used to justify the use of a Christmas tree because so many people take the position that it is a pagan practice. I'm not posting this to start an arguement, I just want to ask someone to help direct me to that verse. Thank you.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 04:15 AM
Jeremiah 10

1 Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
2 Thus says the LORD:

“ Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.

Pleroo
Nov 25th 2007, 04:49 AM
You may find the NIV rendering of that Jeremiah passage helpful, as well as the next verse, just to keep it in context. It's very clearly speaking of cutting down trees for the purpose of fashioning them into idols to worship.:

1 Hear what the Lord says to you, O house of Israel.
2 This is what the Lord says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good."


Since you're specifically asking in regard to Christmas, you might also enjoy reading the Biblical references to fir trees here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=fir+tree&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&showtools=1&oq=fir+tree). :)

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 05:27 AM
The Jeremiah 10 passage is not referring to something such as a Christmas tree.

It is referring to people shaping something out of wood, covering it with silver or gold, then setting it up and worshiping it as an idol.

These really are two very different things.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 06:55 AM
The Jeremiah 10 passage is not referring to something such as a Christmas tree.

It is referring to people shaping something out of wood, covering it with silver or gold, then setting it up and worshiping it as an idol.

These really are two very different things.

True. But, do we not decorate a tree with silver and gold and put nails in it so it will not topple (ie: tree stand)? Do we not then give it honor by placing gifts beneath it? Just some thoughts.

Tree worship is a prevalent pagan practice to this day. Let us not worship the Lord our God as they do...

jeffreys
Nov 25th 2007, 01:36 PM
True. But, do we not decorate a tree with silver and gold and put nails in it so it will not topple (ie: tree stand)? Do we not then give it honor by placing gifts beneath it? Just some thoughts.

Tree worship is a prevalent pagan practice to this day. Let us not worship the Lord our God as they do...

Do I carve an object out of a piece of wood, cover it with silver or gold, then bow down and worship it in the way Jeremiah was speaking of?

No. Absolutely not!

GothicAngel
Nov 25th 2007, 03:15 PM
Whether or not its a pagan practice has nothing to do with whether or not it should be done.

Like how many of you at your wedding didnt use rice, didnt have bridesmaids and grooms, etc etc- because those are all pagan pratices.

Nothing wrong with them. Whatever the orgin of the Christmas tree is, unless you use it for its orginal purpose (whatever that is), its not sinful.

ServantofTruth
Nov 25th 2007, 03:20 PM
Idols were covered on another topic not that long ago and i am not clever enough to search or do a link like some people can. But the point i made there is 'Idols' are not an old fashioned idea of just metal or wooden carved obects worshipped as Gods. It is anything that you focus your attention on too much, that subtracts your attention from the true God.
Therefore Sports can be an idol. Following football, or baseball, or any sport. You can of course enjoy sport, watching or playing. But if going to matches twice a week, watching on tv etc meant you missed church or study, stopped praying or started praying for your team to win all the time - it has become an idol. Moderation in all things - except our Lord and walk.
Coming back to the tree, my mothers church puts the biggest it can find next to the altar. This makes me very uncomfortable. If i were in a christian/ christian marriage i'd like to leave the tree out of christmas as yes it is pagan and i feel not a good witness to non christians. But sadly, and yes i feel bad, next weekend ours will go up for the whole of december. I dislike puting up any decorations and most of the pagan 'this world' stuff. My wife has been aware for years.
But as on other topics our hearts are more important. If your heart is true to our Lord this christmas, that is much more important.

jiggyfly
Nov 25th 2007, 03:24 PM
Do I carve an object out of a piece of wood, cover it with silver or gold, then bow down and worship it in the way Jeremiah was speaking of?

No. Absolutely not!
While I do agree with you, I also fail to see anything sacred or significant about christmas trees in conjunction with Christ's birth in the scriptures. I believe it is just another man-made traditon. To some degree things like christmas trees, saint nicholas, santa claus, rudolph, among other things have become icons of the holiday to many people and are distractions from the supposed reason for the holiday.

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 05:19 PM
I do not worship my tree (I have three of them), but I sure do think they look purty when I am done with them ;)

RoadWarrior
Nov 25th 2007, 06:10 PM
While I do agree with you, I also fail to see anything sacred or significant about christmas trees in conjunction with Christ's birth in the scriptures. I believe it is just another man-made traditon. To some degree things like christmas trees, saint nicholas, santa claus, rudolph, among other things have become icons of the holiday to many and are distractions from the supposed reason for the holiday.

What is the "supposed reason" for the holiday? Christ's birth? Or the Roman god's death and resurrection on December 25th?


"Therefore, the 25th of December, the day that was observed at Rome as the day when the victorious god reappeared on earth, was held at the Natalis invicti solis, "The birthday of the unconquered sun." Now the yule log is the dead stock of Nimrod, deified as the sun god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas tree is Nimrod redivivus – the slain god come to life again."

I snipped this from a long article that discusses both sides of the debate in America on this issue.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29995

The pagans want to reclaim the holiday and they are working hard at it.

jiggyfly
Nov 25th 2007, 06:18 PM
What is the "supposed reason" for the holiday? Christ's birth? Or the Roman god's death and resurrection on December 25th?


I snipped this from a long article that discusses both sides of the debate in America on this issue.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29995

The pagans want to reclaim the holiday and they are working hard at it.

What was the roman god's name?

Studyin'2Show
Nov 25th 2007, 07:40 PM
Like how many of you at your wedding didnt use rice, didnt have bridesmaids and grooms, etc etc- because those are all pagan pratices. Biblical weddings had maids to attend to the bride and groomsmen to attend the groom, so I'm not sure what you see as pagan about that. As for the rice, nope, didn't have rice throwing at my wedding or at my daughter's. Didn't know it was pagan, just thought it was stupid to waste food. :lol:

RoadWarrior
Nov 25th 2007, 07:59 PM
What was the roman god's name?
Adonis



In the 1800s, Alexander Hislop, a noted historian of antiquity, examined the origins of customs such as the Christmas tree and date of celebration. Writing in "The Two Babylons (http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/twobaby/sect31.html)," Hislop maintains the practice derives from the worship of pagan deities.
The Christmas tree, now so common among us, was equally common in pagan Rome and pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir; the palm tree denoting the pagan Messiah. ... The mother of Adonis, the sun god and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been [recognized] as the "Man the branch." And this entirely accounts for the putting of the yule log into the fire on Christmas Eve, and the appearance of the Christmas tree the next morning. ...

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 08:10 PM
The pagans want to reclaim the holiday and they are working hard at it.

I say, let 'em have it. It is their holiday. We stole it from them a long time ago. I mean, the apostles didn't preach the Christmas story.

Let them have the eggs back at Easter too. :spin:

RoadWarrior
Nov 25th 2007, 08:29 PM
I say, let 'em have it. It is their holiday. We stole it from them a long time ago. I mean, the apostles didn't preach the Christmas story.

Let them have the eggs back at Easter too. :spin:

Hi Tami,

I stopped doing all that stuff a few years ago. It was hard at first to explain it and opt out of things with friends, but now I feel so free. I especially love the fact that I'm not getting all stressed out and getting migraines during these times.

Breaking free from it really was like breaking an addiction. The first thing I gave up was Halloween. Easter wasn't ever as big a deal as Christmas, so it really was the Christmas stuff that brought the most emotional turmoil. But, the emotional turmoil had always been there, since childhood! So it stirred it up and dumped it out, and then I was clean of all of it. I do still have the decorations in a box in the closet in case my hubby decides he has to have it. But he accepted my not doing it, mainly because he never did any of the work of it anyway!

:lol:

Lyndie
Nov 25th 2007, 08:45 PM
I say, let 'em have it. It is their holiday. We stole it from them a long time ago. I mean, the apostles didn't preach the Christmas story.

On a technical basis, no they didn't 'preach' the birth of Jesus, but the angels did to the shepards, and it's in the Bible. So the position I take is, if it wasn't a substantial part of the "Good News" it wouldn't have been in the Bible. So while "Christmas" in itself may not seem important or biblical to some, for me, the greatest gift ever given is important, and I celebrate it. As for the tree. I don't worship it, its just a decoration. If we are worried about pagan practices, we better stop using the names of the days of the week too.

RoadWarrior
Nov 25th 2007, 09:05 PM
On a technical basis, no they didn't 'preach' the birth of Jesus, but the angels did to the shepards, and it's in the Bible. So the position I take is, if it wasn't a substantial part of the "Good News" it wouldn't have been in the Bible. So while "Christmas" in itself may not seem important or biblical to some, for me, the greatest gift ever given is important, and I celebrate it. As for the tree. I don't worship it, its just a decoration. If we are worried about pagan practices, we better stop using the names of the days of the week too.

We don't use the names of the days of the week to worship God. Some people do claim to use Christmas as a time to worship God, and they do so using these pagan symbols. That is where the problem arises, IMO.

I<3Jesus
Nov 25th 2007, 10:20 PM
On a technical basis, no they didn't 'preach' the birth of Jesus, but the angels did to the shepards, and it's in the Bible. So the position I take is, if it wasn't a substantial part of the "Good News" it wouldn't have been in the Bible. So while "Christmas" in itself may not seem important or biblical to some, for me, the greatest gift ever given is important, and I celebrate it. As for the tree. I don't worship it, its just a decoration. If we are worried about pagan practices, we better stop using the names of the days of the week too.

We rarely see eye to eye it seems, but I agree with this post.

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 10:34 PM
Breaking free from it really was like breaking an addiction. The first thing I gave up was Halloween. Easter wasn't ever as big a deal as Christmas, so it really was the Christmas stuff that brought the most emotional turmoil. But, the emotional turmoil had always been there, since childhood! So it stirred it up and dumped it out, and then I was clean of all of it. I do still have the decorations in a box in the closet in case my hubby decides he has to have it. But he accepted my not doing it, mainly because he never did any of the work of it anyway!

:lol:

This is my first year not doing it, and I'm having such a hard time! I keep wanting to sing the Christmas carols and such. :lol: My husband, a non-believer wants me to help him put up the Christmas tree with our 4 year old daughter. I'm just not sure where I should draw the line, KWIM?

I hope that I can be cleaned of it, sooner than later. I know what God has called me to do, but my stinkin' flesh wants me to do otherwise! :B

Studyin'2Show
Nov 25th 2007, 10:39 PM
On a technical basis, no they didn't 'preach' the birth of Jesus, but the angels did to the shepards, and it's in the Bible. So the position I take is, if it wasn't a substantial part of the "Good News" it wouldn't have been in the Bible. So while "Christmas" in itself may not seem important or biblical to some, for me, the greatest gift ever given is important, and I celebrate it. As for the tree. I don't worship it, its just a decoration. If we are worried about pagan practices, we better stop using the names of the days of the week too.Hi Lyndie! I don't think anyone here is saying that the birth of Jesus is not important. :o Heavens no! To the contrary, many are saying that these things trivialize something that is monumentally important. The birth of Messiah has nothing to do with a fir tree adorned with silver and gold. Believe me, a believer can easily celebrate the birth of our Lord without one! :D

God Bless!

VerticalReality
Nov 25th 2007, 10:49 PM
The birth of Messiah has nothing to do with a fir tree adorned with silver and gold.

Who besides Donald Trump can decorate their tree with silver and gold?

CrunchyChristian
Nov 25th 2007, 10:52 PM
If we are worried about pagan practices, we better stop using the names of the days of the week too.

I don't think God minds the names of the days of the week. I think He does mind when we use pagan practices to worship Him. That is the conviction of my heart. Am I having a hard time living it. You bet! It's been ingrained into me since birth that this is how we worship our Lord. Does that make it right in His eyes. I don't believe it does.

Mark 7:9

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition."

Christmas is a tradition, not a biblical practice. Was Jesus Christ's birth recorded in the bible? Sure. But the only day it was recorded that they celebrated it was the day of His birth. Even the wise men didn't celebrate on His birthday. They came when He was a child to give Him honor. Not the day of His birth. Plus, I don't believe that the angels celebrated because He was born. I think they celebrated because God had kept His promise to bring a Messiah. I think they celebrated because the Savior had come to die. They celebrated because Jesus was here to shed His blood so that when we die we can celebrate in heaven! :pp

What is the one practice that is talked about in NT that we are supposed to celebrate? What is the one practice that even Jesus took part in? Communion. Remembering His death. Because THAT is why He was born. And THAT is why, I believe, the angels were celebrating.

Could you give up everything about Christmas? The lights? The tree? The gifts? Even the gathering with friends and family? Could you simply just worship Him and celebrate His birth. Your answer should speak volumes to your heart. Could you give up the traditions and just be Mary and sit at His feet to worship Him?

My only prayer is that all who are reading this thread allow the Holy Spirit to speak to them.

In Christ's name,

Lyndie
Nov 25th 2007, 10:55 PM
Hi Lyndie! I don't think anyone here is saying that the birth of Jesus is not important. :o Heavens no! To the contrary, many are saying that these things trivialize something that is monumentally important. The birth of Messiah has nothing to do with a fir tree adorned with silver and gold. Believe me, a believer can easily celebrate the birth of our Lord with one! :D

God Bless!

But then couldn't one also conclude that arguing over said tree is trivial when we could be talking about how great Jesus birth was? I would decorate for my son's birthday. For me, it was to help celebrate, it wasn't about the decorations themselves.

RoadWarrior
Nov 25th 2007, 11:00 PM
But then couldn't one also conclude that arguing over said tree is trivial when we could be talking about how great Jesus birth was? I would decorate for my son's birthday. For me, it was to help celebrate, it wasn't about the decorations themselves.

Good question!

Could you use something other than a tree to decorate at Christmas? Would it still be Christmas without the tree?

Do you decorate a tree for your son's birthday?

GothicAngel
Nov 25th 2007, 11:11 PM
Biblical weddings had maids to attend to the bride and groomsmen to attend the groom, so I'm not sure what you see as pagan about that. As for the rice, nope, didn't have rice throwing at my wedding or at my daughter's. Didn't know it was pagan, just thought it was stupid to waste food. :lol:
Thats interesting, never knew that it was in the bible... from what I have heard, bridesmaids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridesmaid) were present at weddings in order to confuse the evilspirits who would like to bear away the bride. If it is really in the bible, I suppose that using pagan practices is ok as long as its not for pagan reasons, right?

Rice was (is?) a symbol of fertility (perhaps not pagan, but pretty close).

Lyndie
Nov 25th 2007, 11:18 PM
Good question!

Could you use something other than a tree to decorate at Christmas? Would it still be Christmas without the tree?

Do you decorate a tree for your son's birthday?

Yes I could celebrate Christmas without a tree, and when the Lord convicts me about celebrating with one, and tells me it's wrong, I will stop doing it.

Yes, we put steamers on a tree outside for his birthday. ;) Just kidding, no, of course not.

Studyin'2Show
Nov 25th 2007, 11:20 PM
Who besides Donald Trump can decorate their tree with silver and gold?:rofl: Good one! ;)

BigDanC1967
Feb 12th 2009, 05:32 PM
True. But, do we not decorate a tree with silver and gold and put nails in it so it will not topple (ie: tree stand)? Do we not then give it honor by placing gifts beneath it? Just some thoughts.

Tree worship is a prevalent pagan practice to this day. Let us not worship the Lord our God as they do...
This is what I am talking about in another thread. Why is it we think because we changed how the tree is stood up and decorate it with other things make is ok. The Christams tree comes from the worship of Nimrod. Also the traditions we do for Christmas and Easter all come from Ishtar and Nimrod. Just becaus ethe Roman Catholic Church want to increase their numbers and took on these traditions does not make it ok. God said for us not to worship him using the ways the pagans/ world worship their Gods.

Studyin'2Show
Feb 13th 2009, 12:47 PM
This is what I am talking about in another thread. Why is it we think because we changed how the tree is stood up and decorate it with other things make is ok. The Christams tree comes from the worship of Nimrod. Also the traditions we do for Christmas and Easter all come from Ishtar and Nimrod. Just becaus ethe Roman Catholic Church want to increase their numbers and took on these traditions does not make it ok. God said for us not to worship him using the ways the pagans/ world worship their Gods.This is my conviction as well, however, the problem comes when those who do not feel this conviction feel as if we are beating them over the head with our conviction. I've found over the years since I've come to this understanding, that people tend to put up walls of defense when they feel they are being accused of something. They don't even hear what is being said because they are so busy defending themselves from a perceived attack. I find it much more effective to merely share how I have been led to do or not do certain things and why while making it clear that I am not attempting to condemn anyone for how they do or don't do things. It's a really fine line. I figured that it was the Holy Spirit that comvicted me so it's His job (not mine) to convict others. ;)

God Bless!
Denise