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markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 04:43 AM
Let's do some studying! I'll be using Young's Literal Translation (slightly edited into modern English... as in, I'll be changing stuff like "hath" to "has" and such).
_____________________

So where to start on the mysterious Enoch? Well, as Jesus is the One who has always been, we'll start with His words.


And no one has gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared.


And Enoch liveth five and sixty years, and begot Methuselah. And Enoch walked habitually with God after his begetting Methuselah three hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch are three hundred and sixty and five years. And Enoch walked habitually with God, and he was not, for God had taken him.


By faith Enoch was translated -- not to see death, and was not found, because God did translate him; for before his translation he had been testified to -- that he had pleased God well, and apart from faith it is impossible to please well, for it behoves him who is coming to God to believe that He is, and to those seeking Him He becomes a rewarder.

The only two places in the Bible that actually mention Enoch's disappearance don't ever say he was taken to heaven, simply that he was "taken," or "translated." So, the Bible never says Enoch was taken to heaven. So what happened to him exactly? Well... "take" is a bit of a generic verb to work off of, but "translate" is pretty unique, so let's check the original Greek meaning of the word and it's various translations into English:

Metatithemi
to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)

to transfer
to change
to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred
to go or pass over
to fall away or desert from one person or thing to anotherThe same word is used in Acts to describe how after Jacob had already died his body was translated to another location. The word simply means to "transport" or "move." Even at the end of Deuteronomy we read how God took Moses' body. The word "translate" itself does not describe a unique process of being taken into heaven, and no wording in the passages surrounding Enoch's disappearance say he was taken to heaven. The most we can gather is that God "took" him and "translated" (or "transported" or "moved" or "carried over"), similar to how God took Moses body and moved it, or how Jacob's body was taken and moved.

Let's go back to that section from Hebrews:
By faith Abel gave a better sacrifice to God...

By faith Enoch was translated not to see death...

By faith Noah prepared the ark...

By faith Abraham obeyed God...

By faith Sarah have a child...

In faith died all these...The author of Hebrews lists a number of people who were had faith in God, including Enoch, then says they all died. The author does not include any sort of parenthetical statement that excludes Enoch from death, he does not make a sidenote, nothing. He simply includes Enoch in a list of faithful people who lived prior to Christ, then says that all of the people he had just listed died.

Recap so far: According to Jesus, no one ever went up to heaven. According to the two passages that speak of Enoch's disappearance, the Bible never actually says Enoch went to heaven. According to the author of Hebrews, Enoch was "translated," that is, transported/moved, yet still died just as others had.

Yet the author of Hebrews openly said that faithful Enoch was translated so as "not to see death," but later says the list of those who were faithful (Enoch included) did indeed die. Either the author of Hebrews contradicted himself, or there must be an explanation for why Enoch was translated so as "not to see death" yet apparently died anyway. Enoch died physically, but he did not die spiritually.

The Genesis account of Enoch says he "walked with God" and Hebrews says he "pleased" God which can only be done by faith. Let's go back to our first source, Jesus.


verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see -- to the age.

and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Obviously a lot of people who believed in Jesus have died, so the death Jesus is speaking about here is obviously spiritual death. Jesus tells us if we believe in Him, if we live in Him, if we keep His word, we will not see spiritual death. Similarly, the author of Hebrews is saying that Enoch was "translated" in order not to see spiritual death, not physical death.

Even the Genesis account hints out (though not explicitly) that Enoch had died.

So Enoch's life can be summarized as this: Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:22) by faith just as Jesus said to (John 8:51, John 11:26), and after he had other children (Genesis 5:22), when he was 365 years old (Genesis 5:23) Enoch was "no more" (Genesis 5:24) meaning he died (Hebrews 11:13), because he was taken by God (Genesis 5:24), and he was "translated" (Hebrews 11:5) so that he would not suffer a spiritual death (John 8:51, John 11:26), but did indeed die a physical one (Hebrews 11:13), and while no one knows where exactly to he was taken/translated (Hebrews 11:5), but we know he could not possibly have been taken/translated to heaven (John 3:13).

So who knows where Enoch was "translated" to, because the Bible says he could not be found. But we cannot say Enoch went to heaven without contradicting Jesus' own words, as well as the inspired words of the authors of the Gospels and the epistles.

Jubal
Nov 26th 2007, 09:24 AM
I believe Enoch went to heaven. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I believe Enoch was so good that God took him to heaven without him having to die.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 'Translated', I believe it means taken to heaven without having to die.

Markedward, in your opinion has any human beings ever gone to heaven? And do you believe human beings will ever go to heaven? Also what church do you go to?

Phil Fourie
Nov 26th 2007, 09:47 AM
Markedward

Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they died;).

It was not heaven, that I can tell you, otherwise there would not have been any use in Jesus being three days in the heart of the earth:hmm:

So, then we ask ourselves if God didn't take Enoch directly to paradise without him physically dying:hmm:

Remember Jesus only went up into heaven a while after He died on the cross and rose again, yet still He told the guy on the cross:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43

Also take into account:

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

Illumined
Nov 26th 2007, 10:03 AM
Let's do some studying! I'll be using Young's Literal Translation (slightly edited into modern English... as in, I'll be changing stuff like "hath" to "has" and such).
_____________________

So where to start on the mysterious Enoch? Well, as Jesus is the One who has always been, we'll start with His words.

According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared.


. If no man had ascended up to
heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended

dworthington
Nov 26th 2007, 11:41 AM
Remember Luke 16 and paradise? He may have gone to paradise not heaven.

alethos
Nov 26th 2007, 12:59 PM
So who knows where Enoch was "translated" to, because the Bible says he could not be found.

God knows where and thats good enough for me.

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 02:53 PM
I believe Enoch went to heaven. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I believe Enoch was so good that God took him to heaven without him having to die.All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. No one is "so good" on their own. You say that Enoch did not die a physical death, yet this outright contradicts what was said in Hebrews 11.


By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 'Translated', I believe it means taken to heaven without having to die.I already responded to this in my OP. You're interjecting a personal opinion of what "translated" means without actually looking up the word itself.


Markedward, in your opinion has any human beings ever gone to heaven? And do you believe human beings will ever go to heaven? Also what church do you go to?I don't believe any man ever went to heaven, as according to the words of Christ, until after Christ had resurrected. Jesus outright stated that no man had ever gone up to heaven, so to say Enoch did because he was "so good" is a direct contradiction to half of the NT.


Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they diedI agree. I believe that all OT people went to Sheol/Hades, yet the "righteous" were able to find rest in the paradise "side," as Jesus describes it was divided by a chasm.


Remember Luke 16 and paradise? He may have gone to paradise not heaven.More than likely this is the answer, as it is not unreasonable to believe.


John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power.That's eisegesis. First of all, "ascend" is an English word that is only part of a few English translations of the verse. You even said that "ascend" is from the Latin word for "climb." The Gospel was written in Greek, not Latin. "Ascend" just happened to be a close match in one English translation. I stated in my OP that I was using the Young's Literal Translation, and the verse came out to be "no man has gone up to heaven." Saying the translation in English must be "ascend" and must mean "climb of one's power power" means the translator would be trying to force the verse to fit a meaning that might not necessarily be right. The verse has absolutely no implications of "no one ever ascended to heaven of their own power." All that Jesus says is "no man has gone up to heaven." Period.

Brother Mark
Nov 26th 2007, 03:49 PM
Markedward

Maybe we must first ask ourselves where the souls all the people who had faith in the OT went when they died;).

It was not heaven, that I can tell you, otherwise there would not have been any use in Jesus being three days in the heart of the earth:hmm:

So, then we ask ourselves if God didn't take Enoch directly to paradise without him physically dying:hmm:

Remember Jesus only went up into heaven a while after He died on the cross and rose again, yet still He told the guy on the cross:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:43

Also take into account:

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

I think you got it right here. He was translated to paradise which meant his physical, earthly body was no more. He didn't taste death like we do but more like those that rapture do.

We must also remember the verse "it is appointed unto man once to die"... Do all men die once? Even those that are raptured? Yea, I think so in the same way Enoch died. But it is different. Hence the hebrew writer said "All these died in faith" but also said "enoch did not taste death"

He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.

Alaska
Nov 26th 2007, 04:41 PM
Hebrews 11:4-13
By faith Abel gave a better sacrifice to God...

By faith Enoch was translated not to see death...

By faith Noah prepared the ark...

By faith Abraham obeyed God...

By faith Sarah have a child...

In faith died all these...


The whole context needs to be shown to prove that Paul did not say Enoch died

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


True verses 7-12 are those who died as 13 says, but verse 6 is a break in the dialogue after speaking of Enoch, who is clearly spoken of as one who did not die. It is understood that "these all died" does not pertain to Enoch.

Jollyrogers
Nov 26th 2007, 05:14 PM
. If no man had ascended up to
heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended

To take your statement a little further, where was Moses and Elijah coming from when they met Jesus on the mountain in Matt 17 ??

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 05:18 PM
True verses 7-12 are those who died as 13 says, but verse 6 is a break in the dialogue after speaking of Enoch, who is clearly spoken of as one who did not die. It is understood that "these all died" does not pertain to Enoch.Then according to the way you're reading the word "die" as always referring to physical death, then...
and everyone who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;... do you read this to mean anyone who believes in Jesus will not die physically? Because Jesus does not explicitly say people who believe in Him will not die spiritual death. Yet from reading the entire Bible in tandem we can come to the conclusion He was not speaking of physical death but spiritual death. Another thing Jesus said was that God was the God of the living, of Abraham and others. Jesus did not explicitly say they were spiritually alive, yet when we take the entire Bible in tandem we know He was saying they were spiritually alive, not physically alive. To say Enoch A) was "good enough" so that he would B) go to heaven before Christ's atonement requires such an interpretation to ignore other key points of scripture. If you ignore those key points, then the interpretation of Enoch's disappearance works.

So if someone insists that Enoch did not die a physical death, that he was "so good" that God would take him to heaven, I ask in return: how does such an interpretation work with other parts of the Bible that say no one has gone up to heaven, all men have sinned and all men fall short of the glory of God, and the author of Hebrews said all of these people died. The author of Hebrews had dozens of people from Genesis to use who died in faith, why would he include Enoch in his short list of people who died if Enoch hadn't died, then the author says all of these people died? The passage in question in the epistle to the Hebrews is giving examples of people who physically died despite that they had faith in God.

(And just a sidenote, the author of Hebrews is not proven to be Paul, so it's mere speculation to say it's him. Let's just stick with "the author.")

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 05:26 PM
To take your statement a little further, where was Moses and Elijah coming from when they met Jesus on the mountain in Matt 17 ??Where do the Gospels say Moses and Elijah came from heaven?

How was it Samuel's spirit was able to be called back from Sheol in order to prophesy Saul's death upon him? If such a thing happened with Samuel to talk to Saul, it is easily possible that the same thing happened with Moses and Elijah to talk to Jesus.

Phil Fourie
Nov 26th 2007, 05:43 PM
I think you got it right here. He was translated to paradise which meant his physical, earthly body was no more. He didn't taste death like we do but more like those that rapture do.

We must also remember the verse "it is appointed unto man once to die"... Do all men die once? Even those that are raptured? Yea, I think so in the same way Enoch died. But it is different. Hence the hebrew writer said "All these died in faith" but also said "enoch did not taste death"

He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.

Ah, we think very much alike. I believe (same as rupture) that our physical body will stop existing (as Enoch's did) and we will receive our spiritual body. How this works, we do not know, but the Bible does say it will happen to those who will be involved in the rupture, so I'm sure the same thing could have happened to Enoch, diffs is just, he probably went to paradise or to be with Abraham or whatever you want to call it. No oops, Enoch was before Abraham:spin:. So then did Abraham go to where Enoch was?:idea:

Who cares, important thing is we will all be in the same place thanks to our Savior.:pp

God bless
Phil

Jubal
Nov 27th 2007, 12:29 AM
He was translated into paradise and his earthly shell was disgarded.I don't believe he left a body behind. The scripture said he was not found. I believe God took him to heaven alive, body and soul.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 12:35 AM
I don't believe he left a body behind. The scripture said he was not found. I think God took him to heaven alive, body and soul.So if you believe Enoch was taken to God, explain a few things:

1 - Why was Enoch so special that God took him to heaven, without contradicting the statement that no one is without sin, and that all fall short of God's glory?
2 - How was Enoch able to circumvent what Jesus at a later time said, that no one had gone up to heaven, without contradicting it?

Jubal
Nov 27th 2007, 12:39 AM
. If no man had ascended up to
heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended

Good post! This is what I believe.

Jubal
Nov 27th 2007, 01:01 AM
All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. No one is "so good" on their own. You say that Enoch did not die a physical death, yet this outright contradicts what was said in Hebrews 11.[/color][/color]


Enoch walked with God. He had faith. It was counted unto him for righteousness or good. The bible says that God took him. Hebrews said he did not taste death. I believe the bible.

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 01:22 AM
Hi Jubal :)
Enoch walked with God. He had faith. It was counted unto him for righteousness or good. The bible says that God took him. Hebrews said he did not taste death. I believe the bible.Jubal, we all believe the Bible, the trick is to come to an understanding that reconciles verses not picks among them. Enoch was transported so he didn't die, and couldn't be found by those seeking his life, we all know that. What the Bible doesn't say is that (like Noah who also "walked with God") Enoch didn't die later. We cannot read key NT verses as follows:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (except for Enoch)because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses (except for Enoch), even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam (except for Enoch), who was a type of the one who was to come.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel .... 5 By faith Enoch ...7 By faith Noah, ..8 By faith Abraham ...with Isaac and Jacob, .. 11 By faith Sarah ... 13 These all died in faith (well, not "all", only 6 out of 7, except for Enoch), 39 not.. without us

1Co15:23 each in his own order (except for Enoch),

John3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man (except for Enoch).

John14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (except for Enoch)

If Enoch ascended to heaven then he had no need of Christ's sacrifice. And that's Christ's point in John 3:13 - he's telling the Jews that all the holy men of the OT were (and today still are) stone cold dead. Otherwise what is the benefit of the Son of God being nailed to a cross for Enoch's sins 3000 years later if Enoch had already beat the system and found the back-door into heaven?
God bless
Steven

PS related threads:
Heaven without Jesus? (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103328&highlight=enoch) (http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103328&highlight=enoch) 2 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103328&page=2&highlight=enoch) 3 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=103328&page=3&highlight=enoch)) mikebr
Enoch and Elijah (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&highlight=enoch) (http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&highlight=enoch) 2 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&page=2&highlight=enoch) 3 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&page=3&highlight=enoch) 4 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&page=4&highlight=enoch) 5 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&page=5&highlight=enoch) ... Last Page (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=101069&page=6&highlight=enoch)) Debra R

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 01:24 AM
Enoch walked with God. He had faith. It was counted unto him for righteousness or good. The bible says that God took him. Hebrews said he did not taste death. I believe the bible.Then you also believe the words of Jesus and His disciples. "No one has gone up to heaven." "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I don't contest that the Bible says Enoch 1) walked with God and had faith, 3) God took him, 4) he did not taste death.

But I do debate against, with scriptural support, the idea that Enoch was A) "good enough" to B) go to heaven before Christ's atonement and that he C) did not suffer a physical death.

Point A contradicts the statement that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Point B contradicts the statement that no one has gone up to heaven.
Point C contradicts the statement that he was among those who died in faith.

Pleroo
Nov 27th 2007, 01:58 AM
The Bible does not say that [Enoch] ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended


Thank you, Illumined. That was illuminating :), Christ-centered and gospel-oriented.

Alaska
Nov 27th 2007, 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1451389#post1451389)
True verses 7-12 are those who died as 13 says, but verse 6 is a break in the dialogue after speaking of Enoch, who is clearly spoken of as one who did not die. It is understood that "these all died" does not pertain to Enoch.

Then according to the way you're reading the word "die" as always referring to physical death, then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 11:26
and everyone who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

... do you read this to mean anyone who believes in Jesus will not die physically?


This argument doesn't work because Enoch was taken away physically. He was not. There was no burial. Zap and he was GONE.

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 02:50 AM
John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended

Hi Illumined
Can I ask where did you get this idea from? Because, while it's a creative way of getting round the contradiction between John 3:13 and popular tradition, it is, sorry to say it, completely bogus from a linguistic point of view:

ANABAINW, ascend, does not mean "climb", as can be seen from Jesus ascending (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G305&Version=kjv) from the Mount of Olives. Click on that link and you'll see the other NT uses don't mean "climb" either.

It's not that classical Greek doesn't use ANABAINW where we might sometimes use "climb" (Alexander's troops climbed the hill, Jack and Jill went up the hill, Jacob saw angels ascending the ladder, etc) it's simply that classical Greek doesn't distinguish one form of "go up" from another. And there was no Jacob's ladder when Jesus "ascended", so to say that Enoch "ascended" without a ladder, and isn't covered by "no man has ascended to heaven" just won't cut the cherry pie.

More to the point, to get round John 3:13 with Enoch using or not using a ladder is avoiding the actual message of what Jesus is saying - that there was no salvation under the Law (or before Ro5:14) - that all the saints of the OT were dead without Christ, that no one goes to the Father except via the cross and the resurrection when Christ returns to judge the living and dead. Enoch hasn't been judged yet, 2Co5:10, even if we know the outcome.

Q. Did Christ's sacrifice also save Enoch? Yes or no? If yes, then Enoch didn't precede Christ up to heaven.
God bless
Steven

Brother Mark
Nov 27th 2007, 02:53 AM
Q. Did Christ's sacrifice also save Enoch? Yes or no? If yes, then Enoch didn't precede Christ up to heaven.
God bless
Steven

Right. Enoch went to the same place the thief, Abraham and other OT saints went prior to Jesus death... paradise.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 02:55 AM
Thanks for pointing this out. I thought I had said something similar to this before, but I guess my explanation was not adequate enough to be noticed. In fact, your final question brings any idea otherwise to a standstill.

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 03:03 AM
Hi Alaska
This argument doesn't work because Enoch was taken away physically. He was not. There was no burial. Zap and he was GONE.We don't know that there was no burial. No one saw the angels bury Moses either, yet it's recorded they did. All we can say is that there probably would have been an immediate burial if the sons of Lamech had found Enoch before God took him!

As noted above, this same verb META-TIQEMI (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2366985) is used for the translation (click for NT uses) (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3346&Version=kjv) of Jacob's coffin in Acts 7:16, and it is also used for picking up and setting down boundary markers in the Greek OT (people encroaching on their neighbour's land). That wouldn't be a crime if the markers just vanished, zap and they were gone. Jacob's coffin didn't just vanish either.

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 03:05 AM
Right. Enoch went to the same place the thief, Abraham and other OT saints went prior to Jesus death... paradise.Yes, er, almost :). They went to Sheol. Paradise hasn't happened yet, see usage in the LXX (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272), and Rev2:7, it is the final promise.

Jubal
Nov 27th 2007, 05:23 AM
Yes, er, almost :). They went to Sheol. Paradise hasn't happened yet, see usage in the LXX (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272), and Rev2:7, it is the final promise.
That's not what Jesus said...
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

Steven3
Nov 27th 2007, 11:27 AM
Hi Jubal
That's not what Jesus said...
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43Jesus never said that.

It's widely recognised that that's a mistake that entered English from the Latin, and cannot now be corrected because no Bible that corrected it would sell more than a few copies.

i. see John 20:17
ii. see Acts 2:30
iii. see all refs to Paradise (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272)
iv. ask a professor of classical Greek http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/022829.html
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...er/022859.html (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-October/022859.html)
v. see the thief's own request 23:42

Besides which, whatever Jesus said to the thief doesn't change the fact that he tells us that Enoch did not ascend to heaven.
God bless
Steven

enarchay
Nov 27th 2007, 12:14 PM
I honestly don't see the big deal if Enoch ascended to Heaven or not. That's just me. I find it more likely the original author of Genesis really did believe this Enoch character (who ever he was) ascended to Heaven, though the New Testament authors seem to have different opinions.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 07:15 PM
I honestly don't see the big deal if Enoch ascended to Heaven or not. That's just me. I find it more likely the original author of Genesis really did believe this Enoch character (who ever he was) ascended to Heaven, though the New Testament authors seem to have different opinions.Neither the OT nor the NT authors ever actually state the Enoch was taken to heaven. They each say that God "took" or "translated" him, but they never, not once, say he was taken to heaven.

The "big deal" is if Enoch was somehow good enough to get into heaven prior to Christ's atonement, that would mean Enoch didn't need Christ's atonement. As stated before, if Enoch didn't need Christ's atonement, he would open the door to tons of contradictions in the Bible. Or, on the other hand, if Enoch was a sinner and didn't need Christ's atonement, despite the fact that "all men have sinned," then no one else would need Christ's atonement. It's a big deal because if Enoch made it into heaven prior to Christ's atonement, then it challenges the entirety of the need for Christ's atonement on one hand, and the idea that Scripture doesn't contradict itself period on the other hand.


It's widely recognised that that's a mistake that entered English from the Latin, and cannot now be corrected because no Bible that corrected it would sell more than a few copies.If it's widely recognized that there is a mistake then wouldn't it be widely recognized that the mistake should be corrected?

Steven3
Nov 28th 2007, 01:42 AM
Hi E :)
I honestly don't see the big deal if Enoch ascended to Heaven or not. That's just me.Well for me the main verse against it is Acts 4:12, that's the real issue.
I find it more likely the original author of Genesis really did believe this Enoch character (who ever he was) ascended to Heaven, though the New Testament authors seem to have different opinions.Hebrews is as dead against it (no pun) as Jesus in John and Paul in Romans so I'm not sure why a reader would think that - also bearing in mind that Heb11:13, John 3:13 and Ro5:14 stick out like a sore thumb among (i.e. against) Jewish literature (I use the word loosely, mainly pulp fiction) of this period, when Enoch's journeys in the Seven Heavens and Tartarus were bigger than the Da Vinci Code and Harry Potter combined.
God bless
Steven

ross3421
Nov 28th 2007, 01:57 AM
I believe Enoch went to heaven. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. I believe Enoch was so good that God took him to heaven without him having to die.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 'Translated', I believe it means taken to heaven without having to die.



I believe Enoch did go to heaven but the real question is if he died. Most take the phrase " and he did not SEE death" to mean that he did not die.

Is this what the verse implies? No.

The Hebrew word for "see" implies that Enoch did not perceive with his eyes death. Thus God translated (changed in a twinkling of an eye) him from life to death, corruptible to incorruptible without Enoch having the experience of dying.

markedward
Nov 28th 2007, 02:26 AM
I believe Enoch did go to heaven but the real question is if he died. Most take the phrase " and he did not SEE death" to mean that he did not die.Did Enoch not require salvation from his sins or was Enoch sinless?

ross3421
Nov 28th 2007, 02:41 AM
Did Enoch not require salvation from his sins or was Enoch sinless?

Enoch was a sinner which required salvation. I did state Enoch died.

Heb 11:5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.Heb 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Jude 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,Jude 1:15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Interestinly Enoch knew prophecy before it was ever written.


Mark

markedward
Nov 28th 2007, 03:22 AM
Enoch was a sinner which required salvation. I did state Enoch died.Whether Enoch died or not is not the point of my question. My question is how Enoch was somehow worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement? Strictly Biblically speaking (i.e., ignoring the traditional idea (not fact, but an idea), if Enoch went to heaven that would require contradicting or ignoring numerous NT statements (see this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1452016&postcount=18)).

Jubal
Nov 28th 2007, 03:30 AM
Neither the OT nor the NT authors ever actually state the Enoch was taken to heaven. They each say that God "took" or "translated" him, but they never, not once, say he was taken to heaven.
Where is God? God took Enoch to where God is, heaven. Enoch didn't die. According to Genesis and the author of Hebrews. Death never entered the picture. The scriptures are very plain about this.

Markedward, what church teaches what you are saying?

markedward
Nov 28th 2007, 03:44 AM
Where is God? God took Enoch to where God is,Neither author said that either. Neither Genesis nor Hebrews says where God "took" Enoch. The Bible never says Enoch was taken to heaven, the Bible never says Enoch was taken to "where God is."


Enoch didn't die. According to Genesis and the author of Hebrews.That depends on what sort of "death" you speak of. Jesus promised eternal life to people. Does that mean I'm going to live my physical life for eternity? No. It means I have eternal life spiritually. The author of Hebrews lists a number of individuals who had faith, and he says Enoch was "translated" by God so as "not to see death," then just a few sentences later says "all these people died in faith." The author never says Enoch was exempt from this "all" encompassing statement, so Enoch both didn't "see death," and yet "died in faith." Biblically speaking, it is perfectly within the lines of scripture to come to the conclusion that Enoch died physically just as the author of Hebrews says he and other people of faith did, but that he was "translated" by God in order that he wouldn't die spiritually.

My heart's Desire
Nov 28th 2007, 08:02 AM
Not sure if this has bearing on anything but here is a story in Numbers about being taken (my words) in a different way.

Numbers28 - 34
Moses said, " By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing.
29: IF THESE MEN DIE THE DEATH OF ALL MEN OR IF THEY SUFFER THE FATE OF ALL MEN, THEN THE LORD HAS NOT SENT ME.
30: BUT if the Lord brings about an ENTIRELY NEW THING and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and THEY DESCEND ALIVE INTO SHEOL, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord."
31: As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open;
32: and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Karah with their possessions.
33: So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of Israel.

Realist1981
Nov 28th 2007, 12:45 PM
Let's do some studying! I'll be using Young's Literal Translation (slightly edited into modern English... as in, I'll be changing stuff like "hath" to "has" and such).
_____________________

So where to start on the mysterious Enoch? Well, as Jesus is the One who has always been, we'll start with His words.



According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared.





The only two places in the Bible that actually mention Enoch's disappearance don't ever say he was taken to heaven, simply that he was "taken," or "translated." So, the Bible never says Enoch was taken to heaven. So what happened to him exactly? Well... "take" is a bit of a generic verb to work off of, but "translate" is pretty unique, so let's check the original Greek meaning of the word and it's various translations into English:

Metatithemi
to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other)

to transfer
to change
to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred
to go or pass over
to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another
The same word is used in Acts to describe how after Jacob had already died his body was translated to another location. The word simply means to "transport" or "move." Even at the end of Deuteronomy we read how God took Moses' body. The word "translate" itself does not describe a unique process of being taken into heaven, and no wording in the passages surrounding Enoch's disappearance say he was taken to heaven. The most we can gather is that God "took" him and "translated" (or "transported" or "moved" or "carried over"), similar to how God took Moses body and moved it, or how Jacob's body was taken and moved.

Let's go back to that section from Hebrews:The author of Hebrews lists a number of people who were had faith in God, including Enoch, then says they all died. The author does not include any sort of parenthetical statement that excludes Enoch from death, he does not make a sidenote, nothing. He simply includes Enoch in a list of faithful people who lived prior to Christ, then says that all of the people he had just listed died.

Recap so far: According to Jesus, no one ever went up to heaven. According to the two passages that speak of Enoch's disappearance, the Bible never actually says Enoch went to heaven. According to the author of Hebrews, Enoch was "translated," that is, transported/moved, yet still died just as others had.

Yet the author of Hebrews openly said that faithful Enoch was translated so as "not to see death," but later says the list of those who were faithful (Enoch included) did indeed die. Either the author of Hebrews contradicted himself, or there must be an explanation for why Enoch was translated so as "not to see death" yet apparently died anyway. Enoch died physically, but he did not die spiritually.

The Genesis account of Enoch says he "walked with God" and Hebrews says he "pleased" God which can only be done by faith. Let's go back to our first source, Jesus.




Obviously a lot of people who believed in Jesus have died, so the death Jesus is speaking about here is obviously spiritual death. Jesus tells us if we believe in Him, if we live in Him, if we keep His word, we will not see spiritual death. Similarly, the author of Hebrews is saying that Enoch was "translated" in order not to see spiritual death, not physical death.

Even the Genesis account hints out (though not explicitly) that Enoch had died.

So Enoch's life can be summarized as this: Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:22) by faith just as Jesus said to (John 8:51, John 11:26), and after he had other children (Genesis 5:22), when he was 365 years old (Genesis 5:23) Enoch was "no more" (Genesis 5:24) meaning he died (Hebrews 11:13), because he was taken by God (Genesis 5:24), and he was "translated" (Hebrews 11:5) so that he would not suffer a spiritual death (John 8:51, John 11:26), but did indeed die a physical one (Hebrews 11:13), and while no one knows where exactly to he was taken/translated (Hebrews 11:5), but we know he could not possibly have been taken/translated to heaven (John 3:13).

So who knows where Enoch was "translated" to, because the Bible says he could not be found. But we cannot say Enoch went to heaven without contradicting Jesus' own words, as well as the inspired words of the authors of the Gospels and the epistles.

Excellent post markedward.

joztok
Nov 28th 2007, 01:32 PM
Realist 1981---> "According to Jesus' own words, no one has gone to heaven. No one. Period. Considering Jesus was there, He knows what He is talking about and He was speaking plainly, so we cannot make any exceptions to what He said. In fact, nothing in the Bible ever says Enoch actually went to heaven when he disappeared."

I do believe we're adding to scripture when we say Enoch walked with God and then was taken to heaven. Yes, he was taken and I believe what Jesus had said.

But hearken unto the parable of the rich man and the poor man, lazarus that Jesus spoke of.

19There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.
20And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with sores.
21He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.
22[U]And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.
26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.
27And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father's house--
28For I have five brothers--so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.
29But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.
30But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).
31He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead.

Would it surprise anyone that Enoch might have gone to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and waited in this luxury after death til Christ could make the way for all to heaven. To anyone who doesn't know what Abraham's Bosom is look it up on the internet. It's a place like heaven, but not, like a waiting room for those awaiting the promises of God to be fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The one who will unlock the gates of heaven.

If Enoch was taken here, the scriptures are in harmony.

Steven3
Nov 29th 2007, 08:20 AM
Hi Jubal
Where is God? God took Enoch to where God is, heaven. Enoch didn't die. According to Genesis and the author of Hebrews. Death never entered the picture. The scriptures are very plain about this.We all need to have a Bible open by our keyboards when risking making comments like "the scriptures are very plain about this" ;). Neither Genesis nor Hebrews say that - he "walked with God" (just like Noah) before God took him, not after.


Markedward, what church teaches what you are saying?Jubal, this is irrelevant, this would be churchforums.org if all we had to do was identify the "correct church" (if such a thing was possible) and we'd never have to "test all things" as Paul told the Thessalonians. However, since you've asked - I seem to remember that both Luther and St. Augustine taught against Enoch going to heaven. They could hardly do otherwise seeing as Jesus says no one has.

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Nov 29th 2007, 08:25 AM
Hi Joztok
Would it surprise anyone that Enoch might have gone to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) Do you have any contemporary Jewish text which defines Abraham's Bosom (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=98666)and Paradise (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272) as the same place? Because that association isn't made in the Bible.
God bless
Steven

markedward
Nov 29th 2007, 08:59 AM
Hi JoztokDo you have any contemporary Jewish text which defines Abraham's Bosom (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=98666)and Paradise (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=100272) as the same place? Because that association isn't made in the Bible.
God bless
StevenPaul, in Acts, openly quotes a Psalm when referring to Jesus' death. The Psalm states that "My" (Jesus') soul was not left in Hades, nor did "My" body see corruption. This tells us Jesus did not go to heaven when He died (only after His resurrection did He return to heaven), but to Sheol/Hades. The story Jesus tells of Lazarus and the rich man gives credibility to the idea that the pre-Resurrection (i.e., Jesus' resurrection) afterlife was divided in two, "Hades" and "Abraham's Bosom," a place of rest. This is especially credible, because His audience apparently understood what He was talking about when He referred to these two places that were divided by a chasm. On the cross, Jesus told the sinner next to Him "today you will be with Me in paradise." Well, considering Paul tells us Jesus' soul went to Hades upon His death, and that Jesus did not ascend to heaven until His, well, ascension, this leads us to believe that "Abraham's Bosom" was "paradise" (because the place of torment that the rich man of Jesus' story went to can hardly be called "paradise").

Steven3
Nov 29th 2007, 09:54 AM
Hi MarkEdward :)
Paul, in Acts, openly quotes a Psalm when referring to Jesus' death. The Psalm states that "My" (Jesus') soul was not left in Hades, nor did "My" body see corruption. This tells us Jesus did not go to heaven when He died (only after His resurrection did He return to heaven), but to Sheol/Hades. The story Jesus tells of Lazarus and the rich man gives credibility to the idea that the pre-Resurrection (i.e., Jesus' resurrection) afterlife was divided in two, "Hades" and "Abraham's Bosom," a place of rest. This is especially credible, because His audience apparently understood what He was talking about when He referred to these two places that were divided by a chasm. I'm not denying that his audience knew what he was talking about, as per the texts accessed by clicking link (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=98666) above. What I'm saying is that Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are two distinct ideas in Jewish literature of this period.


On the cross, Jesus told the sinner next to Him "today you will be with Me in paradise." Unfortunately Jesus never said that, much as we'd all wish he had - regrettably the adverb follows the wrong verb. Besides the thief asked "when you come in your kingdom" not "when you descend to Abraham's Bosom", so Abraham's Bosom = Paradise can't be sustained from Luke 23:42-43 either.
God bless
Steven

joztok
Nov 29th 2007, 12:44 PM
Paul, in Acts, openly quotes a Psalm when referring to Jesus' death. The Psalm states that "My" (Jesus') soul was not left in Hades, nor did "My" body see corruption. This tells us Jesus did not go to heaven when He died (only after His resurrection did He return to heaven), but to Sheol/Hades. The story Jesus tells of Lazarus and the rich man gives credibility to the idea that the pre-Resurrection (i.e., Jesus' resurrection) afterlife was divided in two, "Hades" and "Abraham's Bosom," a place of rest. This is especially credible, because His audience apparently understood what He was talking about when He referred to these two places that were divided by a chasm. On the cross, Jesus told the sinner next to Him "today you will be with Me in paradise." Well, considering Paul tells us Jesus' soul went to Hades upon His death, and that Jesus did not ascend to heaven until His, well, ascension, this leads us to believe that "Abraham's Bosom" was "paradise" (because the place of torment that the rich man of Jesus' story went to can hardly be called "paradise").

Wow! I haven't seen you on bibleforums before but you took the words right out of my mouth. You explained that so much better then I could. I'm not familiar with this Jewish understanding except that when men died, the one's that lived in fellowship with God or lived in his promises (before christ) didn't go to the place of punishment but into a place that was like an eden.A paradise; a glimpse of what was to be tasted when Jesus came for them.

Someone interpreted this scripture to mean just that:

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...

He preached to those in sheol in the section of 'Paradise' that He was the one. He lead them to heaven; people from the days of Noah. Enoch could have been among them. Abraham's Bosom or 'Paradise' was apparently a nice place, but it was just a glimpse of what heaven was really like until Jesus came to free them.

Steven3
Nov 29th 2007, 04:55 PM
If Paradise is part of Hades doesn't that create a problem in Revelation when Christ promises Paradise to the Ephesians (Rev2:7), but casts Hades into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14)?

The two are different and separate concepts, separate in the Bible, separate even in the rather confused extra-Biblical Jewish literature of this period - on which Christ's parable in Luke 16 is loosely based (loosely because there are several important contradictions between Jesus' version and the popular Jewish versions).

markedward
Nov 29th 2007, 06:51 PM
The Bible also mentions birds flying in the heavens, and that God's throne is in heaven. Are the birds we see everyday in the sky with God? No, it's just the same word is used to describe multiple places.

My heart's Desire
Nov 29th 2007, 10:14 PM
Whether Enoch died or not is not the point of my question. My question is how Enoch was somehow worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement? Strictly Biblically speaking (i.e., ignoring the traditional idea (not fact, but an idea), if Enoch went to heaven that would require contradicting or ignoring numerous NT statements (see this post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1452016&postcount=18)).

Genesis 15:6 (speaking of Abraham) Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

With this verse in mind, if we had of read that it was Abraham that pleased God and God took him so that he would not see death instead of Enoch, would we have believed that Abramham would have been worthy to get to heaven? How do we get to heaven after Christ's atonement? Is it not that we believe in the same way and it is reckoned to us as righteousness?

markedward
Nov 29th 2007, 10:44 PM
Genesis 15:6 (speaking of Abraham) Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

With this verse in mind, if we had of read that it was Abraham that pleased God and God took him so that he would not see death instead of Enoch, would we have believed that Abramham would have been worthy to get to heaven? How do we get to heaven after Christ's atonement? Is it not that we believe in the same way and it is reckoned to us as righteousness?The OT individuals that had been counted as "righteous" did not receive the promise. Hebrews 11 is the passage that lists a number of OT individuals that had died in faith. This listing included both Enoch and Abraham (among others). Hebrews 11:13 states that all (all means "all") died in their faith, and that they did not receive "the promise." "They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance." Part of this "promise" was the eternal life as a gift from God, which they did not receive when they physically died (Hebrews 11:13, 39). Christ's atonement brought about the fulfillment of these promises, including the eternal life He promises us, and entry into heaven where God's throne is. It was only after Christ's death and resurrection that the promises became fulfilled, so that those who lived prior to Christ atonement would receive the promises at the same time as those who lived after Christ's atonement (Hebrews 11:40).

Steven3
Nov 30th 2007, 01:58 AM
The Bible also mentions birds flying in the heavens, and that God's throne is in heaven. Are the birds we see everyday in the sky with God? No, it's just the same word is used to describe multiple places.I don't know. Does the Bible actually distinguish in any verse between sky (shamayim) and heaven (shamayim) as we do? It probably does, I should look.

There clearly are two paradises - one in Gen 2:8 LXX, one in Rev2:7. The question is whether there is a third inbetween... I think there is actually, outside the Bible, because as immortal-soulism entered Judaism during the time of the Maccabees such a concept became necessary. But that is associated with the Third Heaven in Jewish myth, not with Hades. And it's not Bible teaching.

markedward
Nov 30th 2007, 02:39 AM
I don't know. Does the Bible actually distinguish in any verse between sky (shamayim) and heaven (shamayim) as we do? It probably does, I should look.In context for sure.

But even still, Jesus' followers believed that He had gone to Hades when He died and that He hadn't ascended to heaven until after His resurrection, and Jesus' words on the cross say He was going to be in paradise that same day, so if Jesus were in paradise the same day He was in Hades would bring us to the idea that the paradise Jesus was speaking of was in Hades. Some suggest that the comma is misplaced in what Jesus had said, that instead of "I tell you the truth, today..." He said "I tell you the truth today, you..." But Jesus is oftentimes records saying simply "I tell you the truth" comma, so the "today" rightly applies to the "you will be with Me in paradise" statement.

The "paradise of God" mentioned in Revelation, where the individual eats of the "tree of life" is speaking of heaven where God is. The "tree of life" is a reference to the eternal life found in Christ (this phrase is used later in Revelation 22, with the same intended meaning), and eternal life is found in God's heaven, His paradise.

The paradise Jesus mentioned on the cross was in Hades, on account that that was His "destination" upon His death, as the apostles testify. The paradise mentioned later on was a descriptive noun of heaven, where Jesus ascended to after His resurrection. There were two "paradises" being referred to.

Jubal
Nov 30th 2007, 02:51 AM
Hi Jubal. We all need to have a Bible open by our keyboards when risking making comments like "the scriptures are very plain about this" ;). Neither Genesis nor Hebrews say that - he "walked with God" (just like Noah) before God took him, not after.

Look. I do have a bible open with me while I'm posting. I post scripture on a bible forum. Do you have a problem with this? Also are you an apostle? Do you know more than Moses who probably wrote Genesis? The bible plainly says that Enoch walked with God. It says it twice in Genesis. Also Hebrews says that Enoch did not taste death. There really isn't more to say about this. Is this too hard for you to understand? How do I know that God took Enoch without Enoch having to die? Because the bible says so! And remember what Jesus said... with God all things are possible. Do you believe what Jesus said? It seems to me there are people here who just want to argue. This whole question has been completely answered many times over.

markedward
Nov 30th 2007, 04:16 AM
It seems to me there are people here who just want to argue. This whole question has been completely answered many times over.I don't think anyone is looking to argue. I started this thread to be a friendly discussion. I rarely make my own threads, and when I do, I try to make them thought-provoking.

In this case, I made this thread to challenge a tradition. If you disagree, say so, that's fine. That's part of the discussion. But don't get angry at people simply because they disagree with you.

My heart's Desire
Nov 30th 2007, 06:49 AM
The OT individuals that had been counted as "righteous" did not receive the promise.
"They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance." Part of this "promise" was the eternal life as a gift from God, which they did not receive when they physically died (Hebrews 11:13, 39). ).

So you are saying that you think that none of the O.T folks were really saved until Christ actually died and rose again? That before that people only died with a promise that could not be fulfilled until Jesus died and rose again?

I mean it seems that if they only saw the promise from a distance and didn't receive part of the promise of eternal life, before they physically died...that would seem to me you are saying that they were not saved, if they only saw the promise but hadn't recieved the eternal life yet.

My heart's Desire
Nov 30th 2007, 06:55 AM
The OT individuals that had been counted as "righteous" did not receive the promise. Hebrews 11 is the passage that lists a number of OT individuals that had died in faith. This listing included both Enoch and Abraham (among others). Hebrews 11:13 states that all (all means "all") died in their faith, and that they did not receive "the promise." "They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance." Part of this "promise" was the eternal life as a gift from God, which they did not receive when they physically died (Hebrews 11:13, 39). Christ's atonement brought about the fulfillment of these promises, including the eternal life He promises us, and entry into heaven where God's throne is. It was only after Christ's death and resurrection that the promises became fulfilled, so that those who lived prior to Christ atonement would receive the promises at the same time as those who lived after Christ's atonement (Hebrews 11:40).

Perhaps, but your question was this:

My question is how Enoch was somehow worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement?

Basicly my answer /question was if Abraham was saved by faith before Jesus' atonement, just as we are after Jesus' atonement, then would that not have made Abraham just as worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement, just like Enoch could have been worthy to go there?

Steven3
Nov 30th 2007, 07:36 AM
Maybe we can end the thread with simply restating the verses:

Gen 5:24 Enoch walked* with God, and he was not, for God took him**.
* like Noah, ** no mention of "did not die"

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Acts 4:12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Rom 5:14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was transported so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God... 11:13 these all died.

markedward
Nov 30th 2007, 02:51 PM
So you are saying that you think that none of the O.T folks were really saved until Christ actually died and rose again? That before that people only died with a promise that could not be fulfilled until Jesus died and rose again?

I mean it seems that if they only saw the promise from a distance and didn't receive part of the promise of eternal life, before they physically died...that would seem to me you are saying that they were not saved, if they only saw the promise but hadn't recieved the eternal life yet.The author of Hebrews, not I, was making the assessment that they "welcomed" the promise from "a distance." I would say they were saved, but they couldn't "cash in" (so to speak) on their salvation until Christ had finished what He came to earth to do.


My question is how Enoch was somehow worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement?I don't believe Enoch was "somehow worthy" nor do I believe he went to heaven before the atonement, so I don't think I can really be asked this question anyway.


Basicly my answer /question was if Abraham was saved by faith before Jesus' atonement, just as we are after Jesus' atonement, then would that not have made Abraham just as worthy to get into heaven before Christ's atonement, just like Enoch could have been worthy to go there?As I answered above, the author of Hebrews seems to be saying that even though they were saved, they still had to wait for the atonement to actually take place before they could actually.

I'll convert it into a really bad example: say a guy designs a car to run on water. He sends the plans off to be built. Even though he welcomes a car running on water "from a distance," that doesn't mean he can drive it before it's actually built.

My heart's Desire
Nov 30th 2007, 05:42 PM
I don't believe Enoch was "somehow worthy" nor do I believe he went to heaven before the atonement, so I don't think I can really be asked this question anyway.


But you asked the question in post #35, not I. :)
Also, if Enoch was not somehow worthy to go to heaven, then does that mean that Abraham was somehow not worthy to go to heaven even though God declared him righteous by faith, just as He does us when we believe. Is it not possible that since "All things are possible with God" that when He declared Abraham righteous that God could have taken him to heaven if He wanted too? Of course, that makes it more interesting. One might wonder then if God did take Enoch to heaven without death, why did He not do the same with righteous Abraham.
I understand what Hebrews is saying, yet we are trying to decide if when God "took" Enoch and he did not see death, if that means he went to heaven.

Steven3
Dec 1st 2007, 04:52 AM
Hi Mark :)
Some suggest that the comma is misplaced in what Jesus had said, that instead of "I tell you the truth, today..." He said "I tell you the truth today, you..." But Jesus is oftentimes records saying simply "I tell you the truth" comma, so the "today" rightly applies to the "you will be with Me in paradise" statement.Actually "I tell you today" is a phrase commonish in Septuagint Greek, but true, Jesus doesn't often reply "I tell you the truth today", but then that's because he doesn't often have people ask him "remember me when you come in your kingdom". The time-adverb in the answer relates to the time-adverb in the question.

Wife : remember to get a pizza when you go to the mall.
Husband : I can tell you right now it's already being delivered.

Jesus is simply telling the thief not to worry about resurrection (or rather worry about the bema, the judgment), he has a reserved place. That's a better reading than there being three paradises.
God bless
Steven


PS If anyone is interested how we got this comma in English, blame Wycliffe working from the Latin ;).


Hi Enarchay,
Good point. I didn't list Luke 23:43 and 2 Co in the above list because they're both hot potatos. But the Luje 23:43 shouldn't be. It's probably worth placing here the key question. Does the adverb sēmeron, σημερον, today, relate to the verb "I say" (legō λεγω) or to the verb "you will be" (esē εση) ?

23:43 και (and) ειπεν (said) αυτω (to him) ο ιησους (Jesus) αμην (truly) λεγω (I say) σοι (to you) σημερον (today) μετ (with) εμου (me) εση (you will be) εν (in) τω (the) παραδεισω (garden)

The most natural reading of this is that the adverb refers to the previous verb, "I say", which is the general practice of classical Greek word order, although word order in a heavily inflected language like Greek is more fluid than English. Typically, if it was "in paradise today" then really the adverb semeron needs moving from xxxxxxx and placing further up the sentence:

23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι xxxxxxxx μετ εμου εση [insert: σημερον] εν τω παραδεισω

But of course no Greek manuscript says that. So why does the English? In a word, tradition: and that the English translation comes from the Latin of Jerome and the English tradition of Wycliffe.
Jerome Luke 23:43 et dixit illi Iesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso
Wycliffe Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Back to the Greek word order, the real issue is the previous "when" (otan, οταν) in 23:42. The thief having phrased his request "remember me when" requires the corresponding verb in the answer, which is "I say", to relate to the thief's "when", and the thief defines his "when" as "when you come in your kingdom" (ελθης εν τη βασιλεια σου), which wasn't "today" by any interpretation. What's probably happening in the 23:42 - 23:43 request - reply is this:

Request "Remember me when [conditional future event X happens]"
Answer "No need, I can tell you right now"

So the "today" refers to the remembering "when" (otan, οταν), not to the kingdom coming "today", Crucifixion Friday AD30.

There's an interesting thread on this in the B-greek archive where a Bible translator working on an African language NT in Kenya asks a question of one of the true 'Big Greeks', Carl W. Conrad, Associate Professor of Classics at Washington University in St. Louis
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-October/022829.html
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-October/022859.html


I'll dig out some other stuff you mention later.
God bless ;)
S.

Steven3
Dec 1st 2007, 05:04 AM
Hi My Heart's Desire
"All things are possible with God" Well, that's often quoted, but even the context shows that not everything is possible with God - for example "it is impossible for God to lie" :)

The context of these two verses is miracles and forgiveness:

Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” = virgin birth
Luke 18:27 But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” = camel going through the eye of a needleBut, particularly, despite those two verses God still cannot do certain things which contradict Him being omnipotent, omniscient and immortal:

cannot be tempted (James 1)
cannot die (1Tim6:16)
cannot be taught ("who is his counsellor?")
cannot lie Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.This last is important, Heb6:8 is discussing a misunderstanding some Jewish Christians had because they misread verses. We've got to be careful of doing the same and then saying "everything is possible with God" when what we're saying is sometimes like the Queen in Alice in Wonderland: "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." ;)

Jesus cannot say "no one has gone to heaven" and Abraham be in heaven. That is not possible because it's impossible for the Son of God to contradict himself.
God bless
Steven

My heart's Desire
Dec 1st 2007, 05:21 AM
Ok then, but God can do just about anything He wants to.

vic66
Apr 3rd 2015, 11:06 AM
well said earnestly contend for the faith

Scooby_Snacks
Apr 3rd 2015, 02:12 PM
Wow..this may be the oldest thread yet! 2007!

Slug1
Apr 3rd 2015, 02:39 PM
well said earnestly contend for the faith


Wow..this may be the oldest thread yet! 2007!True... this is what we refer to as a raised from the dead, thread. Closing and if anyone wants to discuss the topic, please begin a new thread.