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DanDMan64
Nov 26th 2007, 07:24 PM
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for this question, and forgive me for being lazy and not researching already opened threads on the matter, but I've always wondered if there are any Bible references as to the influence of the US on the world, being the super power that it is today, and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Has anyone done any research on this, or can recommend a link to a site that deals with this question?

Thanks in advance to all who will contribute, this is not a discussion per say, just way to get some research started. :hmm:

punk
Nov 26th 2007, 07:27 PM
See Babylon.

....................

Kahtar
Nov 26th 2007, 07:36 PM
See Babylon.
....................:lol: Punk, you crack me up sometimes. (I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily.....)

There is no clear reference to the US in the Word. And so there are as many theories about it as there are Christians.
Punk's is one of course.
In the scope of the Bible, the short existance of the US is hardly noticeable, and, in looking at the world today, it's likely we won't be a superpower for much longer.
I'm sure others will provide their thoughts.

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 07:45 PM
In my own studies, I don't believe the US is directly a part of Bible prophecy. I believe the US was formed off of and built around the Bible's legacy, but I don't believe it is actually prophesied about within the Bible.

Cyberseeker
Nov 26th 2007, 07:50 PM
Did you know that the Israelites travelled through New Zealand during their wanderings?

Coz we are told they suffered from Moa bites.

http://www.wordworx.co.nz/moa.html

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 26th 2007, 07:54 PM
The Stone Kingdom of Daniel :idea: The tribe of Manasseh ;) How could or would Father leave out the super power of super powers in prophecy ? I do not mean to step on any toes here but this is a very important subject addressed in the Bible.

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 07:57 PM
Did you know that the Israelites travelled through New Zealand during their wanderings?

Coz we are told they suffered from Moa bites.All I have to say:
...

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 07:59 PM
The Stone Kingdom of Daniel :idea: The tribe of Manasseh ;) How could or would Father leave out the super power of super powers in prophecy ? I do not mean to step on any toes here but this is a very important subject addressed in the Bible.Could you show us how, exactly, Daniel's stone kingdom was referring to the US?

(Not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious how you came to this conclusion.)

tango
Nov 26th 2007, 08:11 PM
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for this question, and forgive me for being lazy and not researching already opened threads on the matter, but I've always wondered if there are any Bible references as to the influence of the US on the world, being the super power that it is today, and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Has anyone done any research on this, or can recommend a link to a site that deals with this question?

Thanks in advance to all who will contribute, this is not a discussion per say, just way to get some research started. :hmm:


Before coming back to God I spent a lot of time thinking about the way the future was likely to develop from a purely economic perspective, with a view to protecting myself from what I saw as the inevitable consequences of decades of excess.

My view is that western economies are going to collapse due to currency hyperinflation. Think in terms of the sub-prime woes currently afflicting some parts of the US and multiply it. Then think of the nations that hold the money (China alone is reckoned to have some $2,000,000,000,000 in reserves) using it to buy up increasing parts of the West - they will want to turn it into tangible assets (specifically food and resource producing assets) before it devalues.

The little people (i.e. the likes of you and I) watch as the money in our pockets becomes worthless and we effectively become slaves. Look at the change in the price of your heating bills and grocery shopping to see what I mean (and, just out of curiosity, compare the increases with the official inflation figures)

Along the way we most likely end up with a digital currency (rather than a physical currency as we have now) and without the digital key you can't buy or sell anything because you don't have any way of paying or being paid.

Even before I came back to God I could see the parallels with the mark of the beast and trusting God for absolutely everything. Truth be told that was part of the thinking that ultimately brought me back to God.

Not specifically Bible references I know (except perhaps the verse in Proverbs 22:7 - "The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender"), but hopefully of at least some interest :)

KnightwithDignity
Nov 26th 2007, 08:28 PM
The only reference that I am able to find, is in Rev 13, the second beast.

A beast in bible prophesy can represent a king, or a kingdom (nation/empire), and the representation of an empire can be both at a specific time in the history of that empire, or it can mean the whole history of that empire.

The second beast of rev 13 is considered to be lamblike. There those who like me interpret this to mean that this second beast is therefore a christian empire. The second beast also controls the worlds resources and finances. The power to prevent you from buying and selling.

This second beast of rev 13 however speaks like a dragon, which is a symbol used to describe the first beast. This has been interpreted that although the second beast is a christian superpower/worldwide nation/empire, something happens to bring about a change so that it becomes like the first beast


When America was established as a nation, independant, it stood as the champion of protestant christianity, and was a haven for those fleeing from religious persecution. For 150 years America stood for every thing that was good and right.

However in the last 50 years there has been a change taking place in America. Moral standards have been falling at an increasing rate. The Ten Commandmants are being ripped down.

Since 2001, the pace of change has increased dramatically. Freedoms of the everyday person are rapidly being taken away. In 2008 more changes are set to come into place that will have an effect on not just the people of America but across the world. New IDs are being implemented around the world, driven by America.

You wont be able to travel with out one of the new IDs and you wont be able to bank or pay taxes.

These new IDs are not the mark of the beast, they are a tool of the beast.

When the new chips go into all your forms of ID, and onto every thing that you can buy or sell, and into the plastic cards that you use to do all your business transactions, ie credit cards, debit cards, eftpos cards, your cheques, and even in your money... the government will be able to controll your ability to buy and sell, and restrict your ability to travel.

This is the America which we see developing today. Foreign policy changed from one of reactiveness to world developments to one of preemptive first strike.

And we can expect to see further changes yet. And you wont like what is coming.

Wintermute
Nov 26th 2007, 08:39 PM
The Stone Kingdom of Daniel :idea: The tribe of Manasseh ;) How could or would Father leave out the super power of super powers in prophecy ? I do not mean to step on any toes here but this is a very important subject addressed in the Bible.

Superpowers in the Bible are only important as they interact with the majority of the people of God. There is plenty said about the nations around Israel, but the other nations of the world removed from Israel are not specifically spoken, though they would be included when the Bible talks about all the nations of the earth, and every tongue, etc. Generalized verses.

Regarding the opening thread. Take a look at Revelation 12.
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. Here we see the commencement of the persecution of the Christian church by Satan. If you read the prior verses, you will see that the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ sealed the fate of the Devil (he has now been cast down, and now knows his time is short).
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.This is the continued pursection, in which the church is attempted to be carried away by the nations of the earth. See the last verses in Revelation 17 to get an idea of what waters represent, there are other verses as well. The time, times and half a time is seen in other places of the Bible as 42 months, 1260 days and time, times and half a time. I believe this represents the greater than 1000 years temporal rule by Ecclesiastical Rome. A time when people such as the Waldenses, Huguenot, Albigense, Bohemians and later the protestant reformers were persecuted for their faith.
But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.The reformed churches fled in the end from populous places of the earth, and found refuge in the territory of the Americas (the earth). Now go to Revelation 13, and look at the second beast. It comes out of the earth. Previously, as in the book of Daniel, beast nations come out of the waters, or the populous nations, and tongues of the earth. But this beast comes out of the earth by contrast; a nation to arise in a place of little population and is linked with the events of the end of revelation 12. It has horns like a lamb, indicating its power is based on Christ-like principles. But speaks like a dragon, which in the following verses indicates a reference to it eventually making an image to the first beast, etc. The earth and the beast that comes out of it is the best example of US in prophecy I've seen.

DanDMan64
Nov 26th 2007, 09:41 PM
The only reference that I am able to find, is in Rev 13, the second beast.

A beast in bible prophesy can represent a king, or a kingdom (nation/empire), and the representation of an empire can be both at a specific time in the history of that empire, or it can mean the whole history of that empire.

The second beast of rev 13 is considered to be lamblike. There those who like me interpret this to mean that this second beast is therefore a christian empire. The second beast also controls the worlds resources and finances. The power to prevent you from buying and selling.

This second beast of rev 13 however speaks like a dragon, which is a symbol used to describe the first beast. This has been interpreted that although the second beast is a christian superpower/worldwide nation/empire, something happens to bring about a change so that it becomes like the first beast


When America was established as a nation, independant, it stood as the champion of protestant christianity, and was a haven for those fleeing from religious persecution. For 150 years America stood for every thing that was good and right.

However in the last 50 years there has been a change taking place in America. Moral standards have been falling at an increasing rate. The Ten Commandmants are being ripped down.

Since 2001, the pace of change has increased dramatically. Freedoms of the everyday person are rapidly being taken away. In 2008 more changes are set to come into place that will have an effect on not just the people of America but across the world. New IDs are being implemented around the world, driven by America.

You wont be able to travel with out one of the new IDs and you wont be able to bank or pay taxes.

These new IDs are not the mark of the beast, they are a tool of the beast.

When the new chips go into all your forms of ID, and onto every thing that you can buy or sell, and into the plastic cards that you use to do all your business transactions, ie credit cards, debit cards, eftpos cards, your cheques, and even in your money... the government will be able to controll your ability to buy and sell, and restrict your ability to travel.

This is the America which we see developing today. Foreign policy changed from one of reactiveness to world developments to one of preemptive first strike.

And we can expect to see further changes yet. And you wont like what is coming.This is interesting, so according to this interpretation, the first beast would be the Antichrist, but the second beast could very well be the US, which had judeochristian beginnings, but by that time would become a totally secular society willing to join into an alliance for power with the Antichrist, and under his supervision become it's spokesman, and through the use of technology it could keep other nations in line by use of "Fire from the sky" (laser weapons fired from satellites perhaps).

Also through technology and a partnership with all other nations it could create a supercomputer, perhaps in the form of a cyborg made in the form the Antichrist, which would be use to keep track of all commerce on earth and bring-about the new law of the global ID, whereby all the people in the World would have to be forced to take sides, to be allowed to live in the new world order, or die by not denying allegiance to Christ and to God.

I can see how this is all possible today, which is another good reason to look-up and rejoice because our redemption draws nigh.:pp


It will be very sad though, if this interpretation is true, that the great force for good in the world, the great U.S.A, will ultimately betray it's principles of freedom and democracy and "In God We Trust", just so it can share power with the ultimate "Bad Guy", but if that's what must be then so be it. "Even so come Lord Jesus." :amen:

HisLeast
Nov 26th 2007, 10:13 PM
The Stone Kingdom of Daniel :idea: The tribe of Manasseh ;) How could or would Father leave out the super power of super powers in prophecy ? I do not mean to step on any toes here but this is a very important subject addressed in the Bible.

Don't get me wrong, I love the US, but their time as superpower of superpowers on the world stage is in decline. China will shortly be the most dominant power on the planet. God help us all.

KnightwithDignity
Nov 26th 2007, 10:51 PM
Both China and India are rising powers. But without aide from the States... both would fall. Just as the USSR fell. And they will.

Rev 13 shows to super powers on the earth in the last days controlling the affairs of man.

The first beast.
The second beast.

The first beast is unified europe.
The second beast is a changed america.

One of the main central themes of Rev 13 is the question of whom you will worship.

The first beast is able to be identified by studying the prophesies in Daniel as well in Revelation. This beast developes into a worldwide religious power which makes war against the true church of God. Claims to have power over the kings of the earth. Claims to be God. Speaks blasphemous things against God. Rules the earth for over 1200 years.

The roman empire was never conquored in whole. Only in part. In the east it ruled for over 1000 years. In the west it was divided. out of the divided west arose a new political power separate to the individual nations. It was a religious power that grew and eventually rulled all the earth. This is of course the Roman Catholic Church.

The reformation broke the power of the roman church. The deadly wound to one of the heads of the beast.

but today we are seeing the fullfillment of the last head. A coming together of the countries of europe into a united empire again. And seeking to be head in all religious affairs... none other than the pope.

This is the first beast. A united religious and political world power seeking to be the centre of worship of the world.


The second beast can be identified as America readily enough. A beast that has power over the resourses of the world. Who is driving the great push for the new rfid technology. None other than America. A beast with lamblike horns. America was established on the reformed protestant faith and was a sanctuary to all seeking freedom from religious persecution. The bastion of the free.

But something is changeing. and its getting faster. Protestant values are being torn down every where. America is now pushing for world wide id standards to be introduced every where... and all within the next few years. And all the world is following in this practise. rfid chips are going onto every thing. they are going into all forms of id. they are going into all your banking cards, credit, debit, eftpos. they are going into the cheques. they are going into the money. And all nations of the earth are doing this at the same time.


Rome wants the world to fall down and pay homage to the pope as head in all religious affairs. And will use america and europe to bring this to pass.

when the protestant 10 commandments get taken down... there will be a religious backlash. But dont be suprised when you see that it is the catholic church that is taking a lead in this.

The 10 commandments will go back up... but it will be a catholic version.

markedward
Nov 26th 2007, 11:11 PM
Rome wants the world to fall down and pay homage to the pope as head in all religious affairs. And will use america and europe to bring this to pass.

when the protestant 10 commandments get taken down... there will be a religious backlash. But dont be suprised when you see that it is the catholic church that is taking a lead in this.

The 10 commandments will go back up... but it will be a catholic version.Where does the Bible say this?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 26th 2007, 11:56 PM
Could you show us how, exactly, Daniel's stone kingdom was referring to the US?

(Not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious how you came to this conclusion.)


I am familiar with this position..or one similar to it


The Jews are the house of Judah only, A PART of the Israelites. But when these people are spoken of as nations, rather than as collective individuals, the term "Israel" never refers to the Jews. "House of Israel" never means "Jews." The three tribes at Jerusalem under the Davidic king are called, merely, the house of Judah.
But of Ephraim and Manasseh, sons of Joseph, the dying Israel had said, "Let my name be named on them" (Gen. 48:16). And truly they now bear the name of Israel.


The peoples of the United States, the British Commonwealth nations, and the nations of northwestern Europe are, in fact, the peoples of the TEN TRIBES of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. The Jewish people are the house of JUDAH.




In Jeremiah 31:10, the message is to be declared "in the isles afar off" and is to be shouted in "the CHIEF OF THE NATIONS" (verse 7). So, finally, today, as in Jeremiah's day, the house of Israel is in the isles, which are "in the sea," the chief of the nations, northwest of Jerusalem. A coast-dwelling, and therefore sea-dominant, people. Certainly there can be no mistaking that identity!
Take a map of Europe. Lay a line due NORTHWEST of Jerusalem across the continent of Europe, until you come to the sea, and then to the islands in the sea! This line takes you directly to the British Isles!


Later, in the days of David, a colony of the line of Zarah arrived in Ireland from the Near East.
Then, in 569 B.C. (date of Jeremiah's transplanting), an elderly, white-haired patriarch, sometimes referred to as a "saint," came to Ireland. With him was the princess daughter of an eastern king and a companion called "Simon Brach," spelled in different histories as Breck, Berech, Brach, or Berach. The princess had a Hebrew name Tephi - a pet name - her full name being Tea-Tephi.
Modern literature of those who recognize our national identity has confused this Tea-Tephi, a daughter of Zedekiah, with an earlier Tea, a daughter of Ith, who lived in the days of David.
This royal party included the son of the king of Ireland who had been in Jerusalem at the time of the siege. There he had become acquainted with Tea-Tephi. He married her shortly after 585 - when the city fell. Their young son, now about 12 years of age, accompanied them to Ireland. Besides the royal family, Jeremiah brought with them some remarkable things, including a harp, an ark, and a wonderful stone called "lia-fail," or "stone of destiny." A peculiar coincidence (?) is that Hebrew reads from right to left, while English reads from left to right. Read this name either way - and it still is "lia-fail."
Another strange coincidence - or is it just coincidence? - is that many kings in the history of Ireland, Scotland, and England have been coronated sitting over this stone - including the present queen. The stone rests today in Westminster Abbey in London, and the coronation chair is built over and around it. A sign beside it labels it "Jacob's pillar-stone" (Gen. 28:18).


http://reluctant-messenger.com/HWA/USandBritian/index.htm

This pretty much comes from Herbert W.Armstrong's book about Great Britian and the US in Prophecy..one of many thoughts about the US..

We don't disappear from prophecy ..we just "get's found"..as follows:



Of proof that our white, English-speaking peoples today - Britain and America - are actually and truly the birthright tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh of the "lost" house of Israel there is so much we shall have space for but a small portion in this book.

And in his prophecy for these latter days Jacob said, "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall" (Gen. 49:22). In other words, Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh jointly and together - was to be a colonizing people in this latter day, their colonies branching out from the British Isles around the earth.
Together Ephraim and Manasseh grew into a multitude, then separated, according to Jacob's prophetic blessing of Genesis 48. Our people have fulfilled this prophecy.




:bounce:....looks like we have yet another extreme proposition to throw into the hat..we may be "Babylon" or we may be Manasseh..and the House of Israel..:lol:

SueMerritt
Nov 26th 2007, 11:58 PM
I will tell you, but, I really doubt that anyone will see it.

In Daniel 7:4 we see a lion with wings like an eagle. The wings are plucked off the lion and they stood up like a man. The lion has always represented England and the eagle represents USA. There is also a bear, which we all know is Russia. And a leopard which is Germany. The 4th Beast is the United Nations, which is the Holy Roman Empire revived.

If you then look at Revelation 13 we see these exact same "Beasts" or "kingdoms" except they are now formed into one. This signifies the United Nations. The fourth Beast. Except, this time we do not see the USA. Either the USA is gone or is not part of the A/C's kingdom.

So, the USA is clearly in prophecy. It's just not clear what happens to her.

DanDMan64
Nov 27th 2007, 12:10 AM
...The first beast is able to be identified by studying the prophesies in Daniel as well in Revelation. This beast developes into a worldwide religious power which makes war against the true church of God. Claims to have power over the kings of the earth. Claims to be God. Speaks blasphemous things against God. Rules the earth for over 1200 years.

The roman empire was never conquored in whole. Only in part. In the east it ruled for over 1000 years. In the west it was divided. out of the divided west arose a new political power separate to the individual nations. It was a religious power that grew and eventually rulled all the earth. This is of course the Roman Catholic Church.

The reformation broke the power of the roman church. The deadly wound to one of the heads of the beast.

but today we are seeing the fullfillment of the last head. A coming together of the countries of europe into a united empire again. And seeking to be head in all religious affairs... none other than the pope.

This is the first beast. A united religious and political world power seeking to be the centre of worship of the world.


The second beast can be identified as America readily enough...

...Rome wants the world to fall down and pay homage to the pope as head in all religious affairs. And will use america and europe to bring this to pass...
OK, I get the US being the second beast, I'm not entirely sure you're absolutely right but I can see how it is possible it could be interpreted that way.

However, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the first beast is not the Antichrist, (the person), but the Catholic church from which the Antichrist will come under the title of "Pope"?

I was taught the Catholic Church will be "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17.) the harlot with the cup of iniquity riding on the red dragon, and the dragon is Satan. Is that interpretation incorrect in your view? and if so who will be/is Babylon the Great then if not the Catholic Church?

I know I'm getting off-topic a bit but I am the OP, I'm just curious as to this particular view since I haven't heard it before. :hmm:

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 12:41 AM
I will tell you, but, I really doubt that anyone will see it.

In Daniel 7:4 we see a lion with wings like an eagle. The wings are plucked off the lion and they stood up like a man.Do you believe the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 is the same vision as Daniel's dream in Daniel 7?

Wintermute
Nov 27th 2007, 12:49 AM
Where does the Bible say this?This line of reasoning has it's origins in comparing and contrasting two groups in revelation, the righteous and unrightous. Those being the 144,000 and those with the mark of the beast. If you don't see the 144,000 as referring to Christians, it likely won't be apparent. As a few examples of the contrasts in Revelation:

Rev 1:4,5 Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Rev 16:13,19 dragon, beast, false prophet

Rev 5:6 Lamb (Christ) with complete power (seven horns)
Rev 13:15 Lamb like beast granted temporal power

Rev 14:7-9 worship God and not the beast
Rev 13:15 lamb like beast causes people to worship the beast

Rev 12 woman as church of God
Rev 17 woman as Satan's church

Rev 19:16 God's title in capital letters
Rev 17:5 Babylon's title in capital letters

Rev 3:21 Christ's throne
Rev 2:13, 16:10 Satan's throne

Rev 5:6 Lamb as slain
Rev 13:3 head of beast as slain

Rev 1:18, 2:8 Christ died an lived again
Rev 13:14 Beast gets deadly wound yet lived

Rev 1:8 Christ is, was and is to come
Rev 17:8 Beast was and is not and comes out of the bottomless pit

Rev 6:16 wrath of the Lamb
Rev 12:12 wrath of the dragon

Rev 7:2 God's seal
Rev 13:17 beast's mark

Rev 7:3 Seal in forehead
Rev 13:16, 20:4 Mark on forehead or hand

etc. etc. there are lots more

So, when you look at the 144,000 in Revelation, it says they keep the commandments of God. In Deut 11:18 (and also Ex 13:16 and Deut 6:8) you find the language of hands and forehead (between eyes) used as symbolic of actions and thoughts; that is, the word of God should direct actions and thoughts. The Seal of God is in the forehead (God has your thoughts, which means he also has your actions). The mark is on forehead OR hand (Satan/Beast has your thoughts OR actions, not necessarily both but he only needs one or the other).

By contrast, when you work through Revelation 13, there are a number of references to worship, in regard to the Beast, that are at odds with the Law of God. For example:

Rev 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
Breaking first commandment

Revelation 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
Breaking second commandment

Rev 13:5-6 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
Breaking the third commandment

Then we have an alternation or contrast in juxtaposition. In the end of Rev 13 the mark of the Beast is spoken of. Then the beginning of Rev 14 goes back to talk about the 144,000 (that we know from other verses keep the commandments). In Rev 14:7 it states "worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." Again this worship language in contrast to beast worship, and a reference to the Law of God in Ex 20:11 " For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

Then there follows a call out of Babylon, the end of which has another reference to the mark. Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." The very next verse contrasts "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

So, there is not an overt correlation but rather an emerging theme when you contrast the righteous in Revelation that worship God, keeping the commandments of God, and those who get the mark and don't keep the commandments of God, worshiping the Beast.

Wintermute
Nov 27th 2007, 12:55 AM
OK, I get the US being the second beast, I'm not entirely sure you're absolutely right but I can see how it is possible it could be interpreted that way.

However, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the first beast is not the Antichrist, (the person), but the Catholic church from which the Antichrist will come under the title of "Pope"?

I was taught the Catholic Church will be "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17.) the harlot with the cup of iniquity riding on the red dragon, and the dragon is Satan. Is that interpretation incorrect in your view? and if so who will be/is Babylon the Great then if not the Catholic Church?

I know I'm getting off-topic a bit but I am the OP, I'm just curious as to this particular view since I haven't heard it before. :hmm:The traditional historicist view in regard to the Antichrist and the Roman Church system is that they are one and the same.

A not so traditional view, but one I adhere to, is that Revelation 17 is expounding on Revelation 13:3, 12 "And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast."..."And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. "

Wintermute
Nov 27th 2007, 01:03 AM
Do you believe the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 is the same vision as Daniel's dream in Daniel 7?I sure do, and further that Daniel 8 and 11 are talking about the same stuff, with the exception that it starts with Persia instead of Babylon. And further that the beast of Revelation 13 is strongly linked to Daniel 7.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 01:16 AM
I sure do, and further that Daniel 8 and 11 are talking about the same stuff, with the exception that it starts with Persia instead of Babylon. And further that the beast of Revelation 13 is strongly linked to Daniel 7.Well, I was asking SueMerritt.

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 27th 2007, 01:20 AM
Could you show us how, exactly, Daniel's stone kingdom was referring to the US?

(Not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious how you came to this conclusion.)


The USA In Bible Prophecy
http://hoffmanprinting.ixwebhosting.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/564?osCsid=803a13e0948383eb73569df2e0148a93
This book presents an amazing sermon by Rev. F. E. Pitts of Nashville, Tennessee to a joint session of Congress in 1857 (four years before the Civil War) in which he named the UNITED STATES as the last great power (Stone Kingdom of Daniel 2). He offers scripture after scripture proving that America is The New Jerusalem (Zion) spoken of by the prophets to be established before the return of Christ. Furthermore, he educates us on our responsibilities during this wondrous time in history.

I do not like large copy and paste post. If you choose please check out this book I have read it a couple of times it is a short read and explains quite a bit. I have read all of Capts books and I agree with most of what he writes but NOT all that is for sure. I think the book of Daniel is one of my favorites and second would be Genesis. Hope you take the time to check it out.

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 27th 2007, 01:31 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love the US, but their time as superpower of superpowers on the world stage is in decline. China will shortly be the most dominant power on the planet. God help us all.
Yes if left unchecked. The Bible says that Jacob and his descendants will always hold their gates. Follow the linage and the foot prints in secular history too. I have one that might just catch a few eyes. Our Father will have the final say not China or any other country. They will try yes but they will fail in a major way. See Ezekiel 38 & 39 for Tubal Cain and Magog and check out those names close. The harvest is near and I point this out only to help not to insult or cause hard feelings. We are Christian America and we came from England and York or New England and New York. Ten lost tribes found and never lost by our Father.

The descendants of Adam to Queen Elizabeth II


http://www.potts.net.au/tree/misc/adam.html

HisLeast
Nov 27th 2007, 01:33 AM
Both China and India are rising powers. But without aide from the States... both would fall. Just as the USSR fell. And they will.

Are you aware that China owns over 25% of the US's foriegn debt? Do you also know the US dollar hit its lowest point in history just last week? All China has to do is start liquidating its US debt reserves (like they want to) and there will be NO END to how low the US dollar will sink.



The first beast is unified europe.
The second beast is a changed america.

Pure speculation.


The second beast can be identified as America readily enough. A beast that has power over the resourses of the world. Who is driving the great push for the new rfid technology. None other than America.

China is buying up more resource & power futures than anyone right now. 1/3 of all the world's cranes are in China right now, constructing buildings. China produces 3 Manhattan sized cities every decade. By some estimates, China has so much labor potential you could move every manufacturing job in existance to China and they'll have excess capacity. China also owns a startling amount of "1st world" debt (including 25% of the US's)... they're quickly becoming the world's lender.

Again... I state that I love the US. Some day I may even be a citizen, but the US's stay as pinnacle of economic superiority won't be reality much longer (if its not allready over).

punk
Nov 27th 2007, 01:40 AM
Yes if left unchecked. The Bible says that Jacob and his descendants will always hold their gates. Follow the linage and the foot prints in secular history too. I have one that might just catch a few eyes. Our Father will have the final say not China or any other country. They will try yes but they will fail in a major way. See Ezekiel 38 & 39 for Tubal Cain and Magog and check out those names close. The harvest is near and I point this out only to help not to insult or cause hard feelings. We are Christian America and we came from England and York or New England and New York. Ten lost tribes found and never lost by our Father.

The descendants of Adam to Queen Elizabeth II



http://www.potts.net.au/tree/misc/adam.html


Ah a British-Israelite.

I can't say it surprised me given your name.

You do understand the word "saxon" derives from the Old English "seaxe" and has nothing to do with the words "Isaac", or "son"?

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 27th 2007, 01:40 AM
Are you aware that China owns over 25% of the US's foriegn debt? Do you also know the US dollar hit its lowest point in history just last week? All China has to do is start liquidating its US debt reserves (like they want to) and there will be NO END to how low the US dollar will sink.



Pure speculation.



China is buying up more resource & power futures than anyone right now. 1/3 of all the world's cranes are in China right now, constructing buildings. China produces 3 Manhattan sized cities every decade. By some estimates, China has so much labor potential you could move every manufacturing job in existance to China and they'll have excess capacity. China also owns a startling amount of "1st world" debt (including 25% of the US's)... they're quickly becoming the world's lender.

Again... I state that I love the US. Some day I may even be a citizen, but the US's stay as pinnacle of economic superiority won't be reality much longer (if its not allready over).
These communistic/atheistic nations will be crushed when they make their move to destroy this great nation. Yes it will look real bad before the second advent. Christ will fight the last battle and I have read the end of the Book and Christians have the victory not China, Russia or the Arab states. Christ the King nothing short of that.

HisLeast
Nov 27th 2007, 01:53 AM
These communistic/atheistic nations will be crushed when they make their move to destroy this great nation. Yes it will look real bad before the second advent. Christ will fight the last battle and I have read the end of the Book and Christians have the victory not China, Russia or the Arab states. Christ the King nothing short of that.

I never once said China will win. I said you can't place the US in end times prophecy based on its supposed economic dominance. But if you want to go there, the way I read prophecy, Christ and his faithfull win, not any particular nation. Don't think for a second that the US 'represents' Christianity.

For all we know, the final days of the earth could be 500 years from now. Until then, I wouldn't be so confident that communist China would be crushed if it came to fisticuffs. They can conscript an army the size of the entire US population every year... if they didnt' just decide to establish a trade embargo and instantaneously collapse the US economy.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 01:54 AM
Ah a British-Israelite.

I can't say it surprised me given your name.

You do understand the word "saxon" derives from the Old English "seaxe" and has nothing to do with the words "Isaac", or "son"?Man, when I first read about this idea from a book my girlfriend got in the mail, I was like... "what?" The author also believes "British" is from the Hebrew words for "men (iysh) of the covenant (berith)" or something like that. Which doesn't account for the Irish, Scottish or Spanish. And that the name came from the word "Britannia" as given to the land by the Greeks and Romans.

Isaac-Saxon
Nov 27th 2007, 01:57 AM
I never once said China will win. I said you can't place the US in end times prophecy based on its supposed economic dominance. But if you want to go there, the way I read prophecy, Christ and his faithfull win, not any particular nation. Don't think for a second that the US 'represents' Christianity.

For all we know, the final days of the earth could be 500 years from now. Until then, I wouldn't be so confident that communist China would be crushed if it came to fisticuffs. They can conscript an army the size of the entire US population every year... if they didnt' just decide to establish a trade embargo and instantaneously collapse the US economy.

I see your reasoning and respect your post as a plausible idea. I just do not agree with your time frame because of what I believe the Parable of the Fig Tree points out. I would love to hear more on what you think the out come will be. Enjoyed your post.

SueMerritt
Nov 27th 2007, 02:31 AM
Do you believe the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2 is the same vision as Daniel's dream in Daniel 7?

No, and here's why. If you look at Daniel 8:20, you see that God clearly tells us that a "Ram" represents the Medes and Persians and that a "Goat" represents Greece. The kingdoms in Daniel 7 are different kingdoms.

We know that Daniel 7 is speaking about the kingdoms right up until Jesus returns because of Daniel 7:13-14 and Daniel 7:22 and Daniel 7:27.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 02:41 AM
No, and here's why. If you look at Daniel 8:20, you see that God clearly tells us that a "Ram" represents the Medes and Persians and that a "Goat" represents Greece. The kingdoms in Daniel 7 are different kingdoms.I said Daniel 2. Not Daniel 8. Do you think Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the same vision?

Amazedgrace21
Nov 27th 2007, 05:05 AM
I personally don't have a clue where we will be in respect to prophecy albeit I have read and studied numerous theories..

but is it simply possible that something happens along the lines of an extraordinary,catastrophic natural disaster or some other form of event where we simply lose our status and become a non-entity in terms of our current status as the nation we are now in the global scheme of things..sort of reduced to a level of non-signifigance?

While I know that is a pretty far fetched leap to take , yet it is not altogether unplausible...:confused

MLC
Nov 27th 2007, 05:45 AM
I believe the US is mystery Babylon (Particulary Manhatten), and this guy sums up what I would type for the most part. :)

http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/mystery_babylon_the_great.htm

Plus. I have heard many prophets whom up to this point I trust who have backed that up.

MLC
Nov 27th 2007, 05:48 AM
Also, many people falsely assume the the mystery babylon is that of the antichrist, but that is false. The above link I believe goes over that. Whether you agree with it or not it is quite interesting.

hootinannie
Nov 27th 2007, 07:37 AM
This is interesting, so according to this interpretation, the first beast would be the Antichrist, but the second beast could very well be the US, which had judeochristian beginnings, but by that time would become a totally secular society willing to join into an alliance for power with the Antichrist, and under his supervision become it's spokesman, and through the use of technology it could keep other nations in line by use of "Fire from the sky" (laser weapons fired from satellites perhaps). No, not laser....EHRF....extremely high radio frequency. The technology already exists. Do some in depth study into HAARP. They can bounce these radio frequencies off of the stratosphere and cause just about any place on earth to burst into flames. The US has this technology, but is behind Russia and China. They are also using these radio frequencies to attempt to control weather, by heating the ionosphere in particular places to try to fend off hurricanes, bring rain to places that need it, and dry out places which are getting too much rain. So far they aren't being that successful with the weather control, but the bouncing of the frequencies off the ionosphere or stratosphere (can't remember which) and using them as weapons....that technology is pretty far advanced but not yet used as a weapon.

Also through technology and a partnership with all other nations it could create a supercomputer, this supercomputer already exists and is located in Brussels, Belgium, and is already capable of keeping record of all persons and all their information and all the commerce of the earth...interestingly enough, if my memory serves me correctly, the acronym made by the first letters of each of the words in the name of the computer is B.E.A.S.T. I think the first three words are Brussells Electronic Access , but I can't remember what the S and T stand for. I'm not claiming any special significance for that....I just find it interesting. perhaps in the form of a cyborg made in the form the Antichrist, which would be use to keep track of all commerce on earth and bring-about the new law of the global ID, whereby all the people in the World would have to be forced to take sides, to be allowed to live in the new world order, or die by not denying allegiance to Christ and to God.

I can see how this is all possible today, which is another good reason to look-up and rejoice because our redemption draws nigh.:pp


It will be very sad though, if this interpretation is true, that the great force for good in the world, the great U.S.A, will ultimately betray it's principles of freedom and democracy and "In God We Trust", just so it can share power with the ultimate "Bad Guy", but if that's what must be then so be it. "Even so come Lord Jesus." :amen:

Just another little interesting thing. I once researched the Statue of Liberty, and found that she represents Ishtar, the goddess of Babylon. This COULD be (New York City) the "Babylon the Great" which is said to have "fallen". Again, I'm not claiming anything. I just find these things very interesting.

Hoot

SueMerritt
Nov 27th 2007, 10:19 AM
I said Daniel 2. Not Daniel 8. Do you think Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are the same vision?

Marked, I know you said Daniel 2. I said no. Daniel 2 is not the same "beasts" or "kingdoms". Beasts or animals in scripture signify kingdoms. Actually, I really shouldn't have said no, because, the kingdoms of today are the ten toes in Daniel 2.

But, the other kingdoms in Daniel 2:
The head of gold was the Babylonian kingdom, the breast and arms of silver were the Medes and Persian kingdom, The belly and thighs of brass were the Greek kingdom and the legs of iron were the Roman kingdom.

Now, what I meant by Daniel 8, is that God has told us clearly that the two horned ram represents the Medes and Persian kingdom and the goat represents the Greece kingdom. The horns are the kings of the kingdoms.

So, in Daniel 7 when we see a lion with wings and a bear and a leopard, we are not seeing a ram or a goat and so therefore, these kingdoms in Daniel 7 are not the same kingdoms as in Daniel 2. Except the ten toes does signify the 10 main nations in the United Nations today.

Daniel 7 is focusing on the ten toes in Daniel 2. But, more accurately, Revelation 13:2 gives us a better picture of these kingdoms in Daniel 7. And Revelation 13:2 shows us what they look like at the very end, during the Tribulation. They are joined into one beast.

KnightwithDignity
Nov 27th 2007, 10:21 AM
In america, starting from may next year, the usa is rolling out changes to the american drivers licence. it is likely to get a chip, bio stuff etc on it. but the main thing is all states are to have their computer systems interlinked, live.

And if you dont get one of the new ids... you wont be able to travel out of state, you wont be able to fly, you will face dificulties doing business with the government, ie taxes.. you wont be allowed in federal buildings. you wont be able to open new accounts with your bank.

but wait... there is more.

in the eu and uk they are bringing similar systems online over the next few years. and guess what. these will all be interlinked with each other and with the usa.

here is the foundation work for a worldwide database system of personal identification of any one any where any time.

but wait... there is more.

around the world at this moment are moves to introduce rfid chips on to any thing and everything.

And you guessed it ... there is more...

these chips are not just going into the new ids... or onto all the things you will buy or sell... they are also going onto every thing to do with the banking system. Your money, your credit cards, your debit cards, your eftpos cards. everything is getting chipped.


America is driving this worldwide system. And america is dictating the timing. and america is setting the standards these things will work on.


This is rev 13 stuff happening right now here in our time.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 03:42 PM
Marked, I know you said Daniel 2. I said no. Daniel 2 is not the same "beasts" or "kingdoms". Beasts or animals in scripture signify kingdoms. Actually, I really shouldn't have said no, because, the kingdoms of today are the ten toes in Daniel 2.

But, the other kingdoms in Daniel 2:
The head of gold was the Babylonian kingdom, the breast and arms of silver were the Medes and Persian kingdom, The belly and thighs of brass were the Greek kingdom and the legs of iron were the Roman kingdom.Wait. So you say the iron legs was the Roman Empire. Then Daniel 2 states that the "small rock" is formed by God and grows to cover the whole earth. This is remarkably similar to what happens in Daniel 7; the Son of Man shows up, is given His dominion when He comes on the clouds to God (to God, not to the earth as so many misinterpret), and He establishes His eternal kingdom. Each dream shows four subsequent kingdoms followed by the fifth and final kingdom. And, historically speaking, Jesus, the Son of Man, did preach His kingdom would come soon, and when He ascended to heaven He took His place at the throne, just as Daniel 7 describes. Comparing the Bible text to what has already happened in history actually completes the picture. The only way Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 could be separate visions is if the reader believes there are two "fifth" kingdoms being established (the fifth kingdom, the Kingdom of God, from Daniel 2, and the fifth kingdom, the Kingdom of the Son of Man, from Daniel 7). Yet such an interpretation doesn't make sense because Jesus spoke of only one Kingdom of God.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 27th 2007, 04:13 PM
There certainly are many things going on here in the world that I would regard as indications of "signs" that characterize the nature of those issued warnings to observe as fulfillments of prophecy..

But I am not quite sure how the rfid chips represent the level of attention that they receive..while sure they will expidite a global bank of information being able to be accessed and exchanged at an incredible speed of exchange,

Here in the USA such info is already accumulated and exchanged and has been for years..the driver's licence and social security numbers have been the tag sources for decades..

There is no new info that can be determined from ongoing "surveilence" of these two form's of ID that is not already in practice or "a practice" I guess is what I am saying.. a drivers license is already required and needed to perfom most transactions in terms of establishing ID..for driving, travel, purchases not made with a form of credit, or to establish the form of credit has not been stolen..security purposes to gain admission to some secure areas considiered high risk or sensitive.

A rfid chip would only track where the license is and be a primary "boom" to retail companies who attempt to build consumer profiles on buyers gather info by supplementing "credit practices" already employed in gathering such info..

It's used for security applications when it comes to pets or merchandise, for mail, etc., monitoring inventory control and status..etc.

While such monitoring is annoying..it's applications would have to justified with some extreme provacation to get folks to agree to allow themselves to be "chipped" which is something altogether different..

From a Christian perspective, then my question is "what sign" would qualify as a prophetical one to correlate this practice as one distinguished as the "mark" of the beast? Since it is also associated with being taken upon ones self, and instituted as mandatory for worship? Would this not have to be a "global event"?

IMHO, I would be inclined to be very concerned if this were instituted..but it does not appear having a driver's license, even if it becomes "chipped" is the equivalent of this for now is it? :confused

Wouldn't it be much more critical in terms of a sign if the ability to use cash as a form of barter becoming "illegal" aligned with a mandatory use of a single form of credit barter imposed under the heading of one jurisdiction, that is enforced exclusively at some form of government control and regulation?

Again, prophetically, there would have to be a fulfilment of events set forth (in detail) and a sequence of them, that were the very signs given by God that would be as distinguishable to those "watching"..the literal type of details designated to Noah to abide by? :confused

For now, at least..the technology that is employed in the rfid chips warrants scrutiny but so is the entire advancement of other areas such as the computer and science applications becoming commercialized in applications, the global trend of government policy, economy,etc.. the spiritual condition of the world and shape the Church is in.. the affairs in the ME..

Yet how do these things that are occuring globally in all advanced nations simultaneously confer something about the status of the US in respect to why it is not mentioned in biblical prophecy except in a very beneign role perhaps?

So many of these other issues seem to be arriving and being forced into the equation of the picture from other nations taking the lead and attempting to enforce compliance by the US, more so than the other way around IMHO..as is the example of whats happening in the economy and the "dollar"...we are getting "spanked',

we are not the ones "in control" here..we are hardly taken seriously or even the same symbol of "enforcement" when it comes to countries like Russia, China or even an "Iran"..absent military strength and deeper pockets to sustain certain types of engagements..but our "pockets" are becoming compromised for maintaining even this "status"..

So none of this points to the US being "the player" of Babylon status IMHO..just the tail of the dog of who ever is at (most).:hmm:

DanDMan64
Nov 27th 2007, 05:46 PM
I believe the US is mystery Babylon (Particulary Manhatten), and this guy sums up what I would type for the most part. :)

http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/mystery_babylon_the_great.htm

Plus. I have heard many prophets whom up to this point I trust who have backed that up.It is very interesting, so this guy "Richard Perry" believes The US is actually "Babylon The Great", though I'm not quite sure he's saying that the whole USA will be destroyed by the AC, or only Manhattan, NY will be destroyed. I'll have to go back and read it more closely.

Be very careful about prophets though, Jesus was very clear about John the baptist being the last Prophet in Matt 11:13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.", and He also pointed this -out in Lk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Anyone claiming to be a Prophet after John The Baptist is either a false prophet or one who confuses his ministry as a Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist, for that of a Prophet, or one who has the gift of prophesy or interpretation of tongues and mistakenly believes that he/she is a prophet.

It's important to establish that because Jesus warned us that many would be coming after Him proclaiming themselves to be prophets, "Mt 24:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mt 24:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

In this thread I'm just trying to look at all possible references of the US being mentioned or even "prophesied" about in scripture, but I don't want to favor one interpretation over another unless we come to a consensus that in fact we have uncovered "the truth", as I expect many scriptures and interpretations of them are possible and we will get many differing views on the subject, as it has been the case with many other end times debates.

However I will not myself take any interpretation or declaration that is not supported by scripture, specially from anyone claiming to either be a Prophet or a disciple of a Prophet, nor would I recommend that anyone else does.

I just thought that needed to be said. :cool:

Amazedgrace21
Nov 27th 2007, 06:05 PM
I have some other questions that would interest me to see at least answers offered, opposed to debated...regarding the US status in prophecy..

As a nation we were irrefutably "Judeo -Christian" in terms of our original designation and identity..today it would not be disputed that we have established ourselves as a nation with a Christian ethic in terms of many things and how we are perceived internationally, but are we actually a "Christian Nation" in respect to the fact we have no national religion so to speak..? We have a huge population of Christians..per polls that tract this info. but we are hardly uniform in terms of denominational issues.

It just seems IMHO, when we broach the investigation of what happens to the USA in prophecy, it always comes down to "what happens to all the Christians"?

Are we still around if there is no "pre-trib rapture"..and if so, all of the events that have to arrive prophetically seem to insist "the Christians" become the target of hatred and blood lust on the part of the Anti-christ to root out and destroy because we will not conform to to 'his" rules and laws, nor worship him..

So again, this seems to require a complete loss, abandonment of our current identity of a nation, that we are now..and something else would have to "arrive" and "something huge" would have to force this to happen..to allow conditions to come together where its considered a good thing to incarcerate and/or euthanize anyone who is a Christian..considering the numbers in our population that "identify" themselves as "Christians"..

Granted this could be explained to some extent with regard to how many folks are actually true Christians...but population wise there would still be a higher ratio IMHO of our own population that would have to be hunted down and exterminated..in the literal sense. In other words the USA would be in a real nasty situation enforcing all of these changes with its own domestic problems opposed to other nations who don't have all the problems of a huge "christian" population..that coupled with a pretty large population of die hards who would fight against the government "to the death" this based upon other principles if not for personal convictions as Christians.

These are just a few of the "problematic" realities present now that would persist absent an "event" that would change these dynamics..in otherwords it just doesn't seem reasonable that we would see ourselves basically attempting to destroy and wipe out more than 50 percent of our own population that would not comply and expect this to not end up with radical consequences that would destroy our unique status internationally that this portion of our population has directly "provided us" this status..:confused

That IMHO, opens up two doors of possible explanations. because of our perceived identity as a Judeo-Christian nation..we come under attack by nations who abide this perception and their hatred and contempt of us leads to an attack or event that cripples us..removes us from the scene and being able to respond internationally while we tend our own wounds, in this scenario we would not be abandoning our christian identity but being persecuted for it


OR..God directly intervenes via some natural catastrophy that cripples us and/or a rapture event occurs and removes that portion of our population that would not prohibit or resist the other events falling into place, in effect we no longer have any identity at all as "Christian"


BUT..something has to happen to deal with all the Christians that are here and now..no other nation has a population of more Judeo-Christians in respect to this status..so that sure appears to be relevent in terms of a "liability" when it comes to any reason our status is explained in terms of Prophecy..their fate seems to directly impact upon the fate of this nation's status..not the policies of this nation but the actual population itself as they key factor that determines where we end up and why in Prophecy IMHO..:hmm:

tango
Nov 27th 2007, 07:35 PM
Wouldn't it be much more critical in terms of a sign if the ability to use cash as a form of barter becoming "illegal" aligned with a mandatory use of a single form of credit barter imposed under the heading of one jurisdiction, that is enforced exclusively at some form of government control and regulation?

Again, prophetically, there would have to be a fulfilment of events set forth (in detail) and a sequence of them, that were the very signs given by God that would be as distinguishable to those "watching"..the literal type of details designated to Noah to abide by? :confused


This is the area I'm most interested in, the notion that currencies can be made to devalue (since the Fed was established in 1913 the dollar has lost something like 95% of its purchasing power), and commerce restricted (in the UK I believe there are reporting requirements for any cash transaction over £10,000).

If cash can be superseded with a digital equivalent (much like the Mastercard adverts UK readers will be familiar with by now) it can be more tightly controlled. Cash can be slowly demonised because its untraceability means it can be used to fund undesirable activities. Before long you need the card to buy or sell.

I know this isn't a specific study of Scripture, it's my outlook on how life is developing and how the prophecies may come to pass.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 27th 2007, 08:14 PM
I tend to agree with you Tango..so many references in prophecy tie in "money" and goods with power and consequences of how things shape up in terms of much..

and I can think of no other medium that would be able to impose control and enforcement upon so many in terms of who has "control" over the purse strings when it comes to making and destroying nations..literally and spiritually..who ever is in the drivers seat of any nations economy controls everything and the Federal Reserve sure has some highly suspicious tie in's scripturally in regard to their role in prophecy as an entity and the parties that make-up this very elite group.

They have no national loyalty to any one and they certainly only appear to worship one "God" when it comes to much..and it certainly is not mine or any one elses here I suspect. What's very telling is that all efforts and designs of the very heart of this entities function is to "have power" and control..it's simply a "game", if not a form of religion to create a world system that accomondates their vision of "paradise" IMHO..bought with blood money

As a nation we sure have "been bit" with our own procilvities when it comes to the pursuit of happiness having a price tag with grave consequences for this Nationand the ripple effect globally.

I have been following a lot of this with Saudi Arabia and they are sure "itching" to bail out and convert over to the Euro..to keep their wine, wheat and oil status safe from what ever happens to ours...and it sounds more like a when rather than "if" scenario in the nexte several months.

Nor would it ultimately surprise me if there were demonic elements involved either at the core of this "fruit"..:cry:

It sure would be the common thread that ties so much together prophetically..

DanDMan64
Nov 27th 2007, 08:15 PM
I have some other questions that would interest me to see at least answers offered, opposed to debated...regarding the US status in prophecy..

...It just seems IMHO, when we broach the investigation of what happens to the USA in prophecy, it always comes down to "what happens to all the Christians"?...

...BUT..something has to happen to deal with all the Christians that are here and now..no other nation has a population of more Judeo-Christians in respect to this status..so that sure appears to be relevent in terms of a "liability" when it comes to any reason our status is explained in terms of Prophecy..their fate seems to directly impact upon the fate of this nation's status..not the policies of this nation but the actual population itself as they key factor that determines where we end up and why in Prophecy IMHO..:hmm:Thanks Sue, you bring-up a good point, regardless of what the USA ends-up doing or becoming, the second Beast, Babylon The Great, The Anti Christ, whatever, what's more relevant to us as believers is to settle in our hearts the age old question, "am I a real Christian".

It has been argued by post-trib and mid-trib advocates, that there will be a great falling away from the Church of all the pre-trib believers who will be "greatly disappointed" when the tribulation starts and it becomes evident that it has, and Christ didn't show-up yet to call us-up from the clouds. It has also been argued that the trial by fire that will test our faith and our works will be the persecution that will come about when we declare our selves to be on the side of Christ and against "The new world order".

I think those are good valid arguments, and I think it would be foolish for us to close our eyes to all the signs of the times that are all around us and not, at least make an attempt, to settle that question within our own hearts, that no matter what happens we will follow Christ even unto our own deaths if necessary, and we will not deny Him before men, not now and not ever.

Ultimately that will ensure our being found worthy to enter into His rest, when ever that rest is set to begin. :pray:

SueMerritt
Nov 27th 2007, 08:32 PM
Wait. So you say the iron legs was the Roman Empire. Then Daniel 2 states that the "small rock" is formed by God and grows to cover the whole earth. This is remarkably similar to what happens in Daniel 7; the Son of Man shows up, is given His dominion when He comes on the clouds to God (to God, not to the earth as so many misinterpret), and He establishes His eternal kingdom. Each dream shows four subsequent kingdoms followed by the fifth and final kingdom. And, historically speaking, Jesus, the Son of Man, did preach His kingdom would come soon, and when He ascended to heaven He took His place at the throne, just as Daniel 7 describes. Comparing the Bible text to what has already happened in history actually completes the picture. The only way Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 could be separate visions is if the reader believes there are two "fifth" kingdoms being established (the fifth kingdom, the Kingdom of God, from Daniel 2, and the fifth kingdom, the Kingdom of the Son of Man, from Daniel 7). Yet such an interpretation doesn't make sense because Jesus spoke of only one Kingdom of God.

Marked, I have no idea what you are talking about.

In Daniel 2, the first kingdom was Babylon (head of gold). The second kingdom was Medes/Persia (chest and arms of silver). The third kingdom was Greece (belly and thighs of bronze). The fourth kingdom was Rome (legs of iron).

Now, the United Nations is the revived Roman Empire. (feet/toes of iron and clay). This is actually still the fourth kingdom.

Things that you should notice. In Daniel 2:40, this kingdom of iron is, "strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others". But, then look at Daniel 2:41-43, this kingdom also is "...a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay". The first time we see the Roman empire, it's very strong and crushes everything. However, the second time we see this Roman empire, it's partly strong and partly brittle. And it doesn't remain united, just like iron doesn't mix with clay. This second (revived) Roman empire is the United Nations. It is a mixture of 10 main nations, who can't agree. They argued for years over their own constitution.

The stone cut without human hands is of course Jesus returning. Jesus will put His foot down on the Mount of Olives and will fight the Anti-Christ and Jesus will then rule.

HisLeast
Nov 27th 2007, 08:37 PM
It has been argued by post-trib and mid-trib advocates, that there will be a great falling away from the Church of all the pre-trib believers who will be "greatly disappointed" when the tribulation starts and it becomes evident that it has, and Christ didn't show-up yet to call us-up from the clouds. It has also been argued that the trial by fire that will test our faith and our works will be the persecution that will come about when we declare our selves to be on the side of Christ and against "The new world order".

I think those are good valid arguments, and I think it would be foolish for us to close our eyes to all the signs of the times that are all around us and not, at least make an attempt, to settle that question within our own hearts, that no matter what happens we will follow Christ even unto our own deaths if necessary, and we will not deny Him before men, not now and not ever.

Personally I think the whole "pre-tribbers will fall away" arguement is not only tired but smacks of ignorant self superiority. First of all... if a pre-tribber could conclude that there is no rapture, wouldn't they first have to conclude that they were in the end times? And if they were in the end times, wouldn't that be the ultimate justification in their belief in Christ Jesus? Second of all, what is it about a post trib outlook that makes one more prepared for trials ahead.

If you ask me, I think none of us (pre/post/mid/a/etc) will know our mettle until we're in the thick of it. Those who stare down their noses at the pre-tribbers expecting them to fall away are boasting of a strength that their character does not demonstrate.

MLC
Nov 27th 2007, 09:02 PM
It is very interesting, so this guy "Richard Perry" believes The US is actually "Babylon The Great", though I'm not quite sure he's saying that the whole USA will be destroyed by the AC, or only Manhattan, NY will be destroyed. I'll have to go back and read it more closely.

Well, you can click on the box on the bottom of the page to check out the rest of his site if you'd like. I don't think though that the entire nation will be destroyed, though much of it will. Read Jeremiah 50-51, and it says it will become a place of desolation where no one will ever live again. I think this could be saying Manhatten or even all of NYC is destroyed, and since it says it is destroyed by fire, that could mean a nuclear weapon. Due to radiation, this could account for it saying that no one will ever be able to live there again, and that it is a place of desolation.

Also, this is something I have noticed as a possibility, but I am definitely no expert, but it says that the prostitue (in his opinion this would be the USA) rides on the back of the beast. What does this signify? First, that the beast is submissive to the prostitute, but as stated ealier he hates her. Second, the prostitue to some degree may be reliant on the beast for something. The two leading theories I believe that are possibilities for the Kingdom of the AC are of course Europe, and then what I have been paying more attention to, the Middle East. At this point in time both are submissive in many ways, but hate us. In the Middle East, though this isn't true for Iran and Syria of course, but look at Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Turkey, ect.. and in some ways of course Iraq. They submit to us, but many if not the majorty of the people hate us as we see with all of the terrorist coming from nations such as Saudi Arabia. We also rely on them for oil. Oil is huge, and without it we would collapse. We are very reliant on them. For Europe, many Americans are oblivious to the fact that most of Europe, especially the young, literally hate us. I am active on several message boards that are predominantly used by Europeans (English speaking, but for the majority it is their second language, so it isn't just a bunch of Brits), and the teenagers and 20, 30, somethings do not like America. They mock our dead soldiers, and for the mst part are atheist who view are religion as folk tales. Recent polls show in nations like Sweden, only 15% claim to be Christians, in Holland 25%, and even in Britian it is only about 50%. (They may officially be part of a church, but that doesn't mean they believe it) Many of them have stated they would prefer China of all places to take America's place. That is just stupid on their part in my opinion, and I was shocked as I realized how much they despise America, but it is true. They have blinded themselves, but they are submissive to the US. This has been going down of course since the fall of the USSR since they do not need us as much anymore, so this could very well be the beginning. We are also reliant on them economically, since we live in a Global economy. This is of course all speculation up to this point.


Anyone claiming to be a Prophet after John The Baptist is either a false prophet or one who confuses his ministry as a Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist, for that of a Prophet, or one who has the gift of prophesy or interpretation of tongues and mistakenly believes that he/she is a prophet.

So are you saying you can still have the gift of prophecy and prophesize, but they don't have the title of being a prophet? I'm not sure, so I am just clarifying.


In this thread I'm just trying to look at all possible references of the US being mentioned or even "prophesied" about in scripture, but I don't want to favor one interpretation over another unless we come to a consensus that in fact we have uncovered "the truth", as I expect many scriptures and interpretations of them are possible and we will get many differing views on the subject, as it has been the case with many other end times debates.

I completely agree, and it usually annoys me when people act like they know exactly how it will be in the end times. You can believe something, but when people say, "this is it, and if you say otherwise you are wrong", it drives me crazy. Everybody, until it happens, will at least have one aspect of it wrong, unless God reveals the truth to them.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 09:37 PM
Marked, I have no idea what you are talking about.It can't possibly be that hard to understand what I was saying. I'll spell it out point by point:

1 - You interpret Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 as entirely different dreams.

2 - You say Daniel 7's first beast is the UK/US (the lion and the eagle), the second beast is Russia (the bear), the third beast is Germany (Leopard), and the fourth beast is Revived Rome.

3 - Daniel 2: Four metals of a statue. Daniel states that the four metals are four kingdoms. Then he says a fifth and final kingdom, God's Kingdom, will come at the time of the fourth kingdom. God's Kingdom will be eternal.

4 - Daniel 7: Four beasts of a sea. A man tells Daniel that the four beasts are four kingdoms. Then he says a fifth and final kingdom, God's Kingdom, will come at the time of the fourth kingdom. God's Kingdom will be eternal.

5 - Based on what is stated directly in the book of Daniel, these two dreams are exactly the same, but with different imagery. They each present four kingdoms, and they each present a fifth and final Kingdom of God being established during the time of the fourth kingdom. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are two versions of the same vision. They each end with the establishment of God's eternal Kingdom during the time of the fourth kingdom, so chronologically they depict the same ending to the vision, and they each depict four kingdoms beforehand, so logically they depict the same opening to the vision.

6 - Daniel says outright that Nebuchadnezzar (and his kingdom) is the first of the four metals of the statue of Daniel 2. Based upon points 3, 4, and 5, then this means that the Nebuchadnezzar is also the first beast of the sea of Daniel 7.

7 - In such a case, the first beast could not possibly be representing the UK/US.

8 - Following through with Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom being represented by the first metal/beast, and we know that God's Kingdom is established during the time of the fourth metal/beast, then a logical historical (and Biblically supported) reading of the four kingdoms would be: Chaldea as the first metal/beast, Medo-Persia as the second metal/beast, Greece as the third metal/beast, Rome as the fourth metal/beast.

9 - A "small rock" is cut out of a "mountain" by God's hands at the time of the fourth metal. "Christianity" was essentially founded, having come out of "Judaism" at the time of Rome, the fourth empire to control Israel. The Son of Man arrives as God's throne and is given His Kingdom at the time of the fourth beast. Jesus' ascension to heaven to take His throne happened during the time of Rome, the fourth empire to control Israel, and the Kingdom of God was established at that point.

Now, you said "I have no idea what you're talking about." Well, if any of the points above is too difficult to understand, please say so, but I don't think it should be very hard to understand what I'm saying. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 match perfectly, and together they perfectly tell what actually happened in history.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 27th 2007, 09:51 PM
Just a thought here but what I personally see as a "plausible" dellusion that would sort of seperate the wheat from the tares would not have one thing to do with whatever position one abides by in regard to the timing of the rapture..anyone in this group of Christians would agree the Tribulation is an event that is "going" to happen

THIS agreement would allow for all who are watching for specific events to occur in some defintive, recognizable. literal sequence of events..would respond with recognition..and would be profoundly aware of what was happening

What would IMHO become a divisive issue is in respect to those who do not regard any of the Tribulation as a future event at all , but a non-event or one that already transpired within the first 80 yrs following Christ's Ressurection..they would not subscribe to the things those of us abide by are future events..so we would be the ones "screaming at the top of our lungs", in effect as we are now.."head's up" while this group and anyone else quite tired of "us" doing so..would indeed be IMHO lined up for being among those "deluded"..

Unless of course we are are the ones "wrong" and everyone else has been right...:hmm: so if I were to guage a "guess" here is where we will find "the answers" of much in terms of a future event coming around that will define this Nation..which group of "Christians" one ends up in, so to speak ..

My position remains that this is a future event, and while I may not nor do not have any issue with when the Rapture occurs..I do believe the event of Tribulation is a literal one..and because I do, I fully expect to be at the receiving end of much "persecution" for this were we to see the scriptural events transpiring "literally", especially if they were marked with a sequence that adheres to a prophetical time table..

What passes through my mind on more than one occasion..is what sort of response is going to come from the Christians that do not subscribe to a future Tribulation and how this translates "towards a me"..

That they see these things occuring in the world as "good things" since they are not watching for a future event that I perceive as dire realities of the Tribulation and throw their support towards them and I become perceived as "dangerous"..

now that would and would get "mugly"..and is constantly on my heart here that this is ultimately what arrives as the ultimate challange of faith to come..IMHO its "here" right now..and the lines are being drawn at an exponential rate here on this "issue" within the Church that will ultimately determine the rest of the answers regarding the status of the USA in biblical prophecy..it will be the "we" the people..not the government at all..:hmm:

alethos
Nov 27th 2007, 09:58 PM
Where is the US in Bible prophesy?

Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, Even all the nations that forget God.

HisLeast
Nov 27th 2007, 10:02 PM
Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, Even all the nations that forget God.

Well that would be pretty much everyone, not the US specifically, wouldn't you say?

SueMerritt
Nov 27th 2007, 11:16 PM
It can't possibly be that hard to understand what I was saying. I'll spell it out point by point:

1 - You interpret Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 as entirely different dreams.

2 - You say Daniel 7's first beast is the UK/US (the lion and the eagle), the second beast is Russia (the bear), the third beast is Germany (Leopard), and the fourth beast is Revived Rome.

3 - Daniel 2: Four metals of a statue. Daniel states that the four metals are four kingdoms. Then he says a fifth and final kingdom, God's Kingdom, will come at the time of the fourth kingdom. God's Kingdom will be eternal.

4 - Daniel 7: Four beasts of a sea. A man tells Daniel that the four beasts are four kingdoms. Then he says a fifth and final kingdom, God's Kingdom, will come at the time of the fourth kingdom. God's Kingdom will be eternal.

5 - Based on what is stated directly in the book of Daniel, these two dreams are exactly the same, but with different imagery. They each present four kingdoms, and they each present a fifth and final Kingdom of God being established during the time of the fourth kingdom. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are two versions of the same vision. They each end with the establishment of God's eternal Kingdom during the time of the fourth kingdom, so chronologically they depict the same ending to the vision, and they each depict four kingdoms beforehand, so logically they depict the same opening to the vision.

6 - Daniel says outright that Nebuchadnezzar (and his kingdom) is the first of the four metals of the statue of Daniel 2. Based upon points 3, 4, and 5, then this means that the Nebuchadnezzar is also the first beast of the sea of Daniel 7.

7 - In such a case, the first beast could not possibly be representing the UK/US.

8 - Following through with Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom being represented by the first metal/beast, and we know that God's Kingdom is established during the time of the fourth metal/beast, then a logical historical (and Biblically supported) reading of the four kingdoms would be: Chaldea as the first metal/beast, Medo-Persia as the second metal/beast, Greece as the third metal/beast, Rome as the fourth metal/beast.

9 - Jesus' ascension to heaven to take His throne happened during the time of the fourth kingdom, and the Kingdom of God was established at that point.

Now, you said "I have no idea what you're talking about." Well, if any of the points above is too difficult to understand, please say so, but I don't think it should be very hard to understand what I'm saying.


Marked, God might be on His Throne, but, here on earth, Satan is still doing his thing, until Jesus comes and throws him into the Lake of Fire. This is the truth, because, when Jesus comes there will be peace on earth. This is the part that I don't quite understand what you are talking about.

In Revelation 13:2 we see these exact same beasts as in Daniel 7, the lion, the leopard and the bear. Because we are seeing these same kingdoms in Revelation, this shows us that these are end-time kingdoms. Also, like I explained to you, in Daniel 8, God has told us that the Mede/Persian kingdom is represented as a two-horned ram and the Greece kingdom is represented as a shaggy goat. They are also represented by silver and bronze. In Daniel 7:12, God tells us that "The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time." So, these other beasts or kingdoms, the lion, the bear and the leopard, are present during the time of the final kingdom. And God is going to take away their rule or authority but allow them to remain on the earth.

Daniel did not have these visions at the exact same time. They were separate visions at separate times in Daniel's life. Daniel 7 was in the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon. And Daniel 2 was in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign.

And like I explained also the vision in Daniel 2 covers man's path from Babylon to the very end. Daniel 7 is looking specifically at the kingdoms of the end-time. Specifically, the "feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay" in Daniel 2.

markedward
Nov 27th 2007, 11:27 PM
Daniel did not have these visions at the exact same time. They were separate visions at separate times in Daniel's life. Daniel 7 was in the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon. And Daniel 2 was in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign.I didn't say they happened at the same time. I said they were two dreams of the same vision. They were two versions of one prophecy.


And like I explained also the vision in Daniel 2 covers man's path from Babylon to the very end. Daniel 7 is looking specifically at the kingdoms of the end-time. Specifically, the "feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay" in Daniel 2.Yeah:
This second (revived) Roman empire is the United Nations. It is a mixture of 10 main nations, who can't agree. They argued for years over their own constitution.There are 192 nations in the UN. Who decides which ones are the "main 10"? And how can you say the UN is a Revived Roman Empire? Especially since the UN was originally founded without Italy (i.e., Rome)?

tango
Nov 27th 2007, 11:52 PM
Looking at the increasing tendency for countries to join together the 192 nations could easily start to become smaller in number.

Europe is looking at ever-closer integration, NAFTA could evolve into a north American superstate encompassing Canada, the US and Mexico. There has also been assorted talk of an African Union and closer cooperation between Oriental nations.

Some say that the second empire is the EU itself, although it has grown to (I think) 27 nations there were closer to 10 when it first formed.

SueMerritt
Nov 28th 2007, 12:36 AM
I didn't say they happened at the same time. I said they were two dreams of the same vision. They were two versions of one prophecy.

Yeah:There are 192 nations in the UN. Who decides which ones are the "main 10"? And how can you say the UN is a Revived Roman Empire? Especially since the UN was originally founded without Italy (i.e., Rome)?

There are the initial 10 member states. The United Nations has many different organizations within itself. And many different types of groups. But, they have kept these initial 10 members in this Member State group.

http://www.weu.int/

This a list of the 10 member group states:
Belgium
France
Luxembourg
Netherlands
United Kingdom
Germany
Italy
Portugal
Spain
Greece

Russia joined when they dissolved the Soviet Union in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_membership_in_the_United_Nations

Although there are most of the world's nations included in the UN, they are not all on the same level. Like I said, there are different groups within the UN. And they also now have a religious group.

The United Nations elected a High Representative, (one man) who is pretty much in control over the UN. There were two documents which gave this position and which gave this position power and both of these documents were numbered 666.

Plus, check out what's behind them in this picture.



http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9268/666picturevr9.jpg

SueMerritt
Nov 28th 2007, 12:38 AM
Here are the two documents which elected the High Representative and which gave him full power.

http://www.assembly-weu.org/en/documents/sessions_ordinaires/txt/2000/jun00_txts_adopted.php#P51_3072

http://europa.eu/generalreport/en/1998/x0666.htm

Amazedgrace21
Nov 28th 2007, 02:12 AM
There are so many lines blurred between the UN and the EU, I don't know how one keeps it all straight in terms of much..


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/20/neu120.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/20/neu120.xml)



EU will take Britain's UN seat, says Hague

By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels
Last Updated: 1:08am BST 20/07/2007

William Hague has attacked a "shocking" Government concession that will give a new European Union "foreign minister" the right to speak from Britain's seat on the United Nations Security Council.

William Hague: 'It is a big step towards a United States of Europe'
'It is a big step towards a United States of Europe'

The British government had claimed that powers for the EU foreign policy supremo, rechristened a High Representative, have been reduced and his UN role stripped from the new treaty.

However, an EU official confirmed: "We retain, except for the name of the minister, the Constitutional Treaty text of 2004 including the provisions on the UN.

"There is a provision which provides for the representative of the EU to state the position of the EU at the UN Security Council."

The Government had insisted that negotiations on the treaty had ensured that the British presence on the Security Council would never be replaced by an EU representative. However, the text provides for the British seat to be occupied by an EU minister when the bloc has a united position on issues.
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Mr Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, has criticised Gordon Brown for allowing "one of the most damaging and important provisions in the rejected EU Constitution" to be resurrected after referendums by the French and Dutch two years ago voted against it.

"It would seriously compromise the independence of our foreign policy," he said. "It is shocking that the Government have yet again let this through and it totally destroys their claim that their so-called red line on foreign policy is effective."

Provisions, drawn word for word from the old constitution, giving the EU "foreign minister" speaking rights from Britain's and France's UN seats will be included in a draft treaty to be presented to a meeting of foreign ministers on Monday, diplomats have confirmed.

"When the Union has defined a position on a subject which is on the United Nations Security Council agenda, those member states which sit on the Security Council shall request that the Union Minister for Foreign Affairs be asked to present the Union's position," the text states.

Unlike Europe's current foreign policy representative Javier Solana, the new "minister" will also be vice-president of the European Commission overseeing an EU diplomatic service, weakening direct control over the post by national governments.

"It is a big step towards the federalists' end goal: a United States of Europe in which we would be represented at the UN not by a British ambassador on the Security Council but by the EU foreign minister, which this new treaty has also taken from the constitution," said Mr Hague.

Speaking in Brussels this week, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the old constitution, mocked presentational spin over the "minister".

"The High Representative for Common Foreign and Security is one and the same as the Union Minister for Foreign Affairs," he said.

The issue is set to become a major stumbling block for efforts by Mr Brown, the Prime Minister, to deny a referendum on the EU Treaty.

"With provisions like this, there can be no question but that the new treaty would fundamentally transform the EU and is in effect the EU constitution in all but name, as Gordon Brown has admitted," said Mr Hague. "So the British people must be allowed the final say in the referendum they were promised."

If my sources are correct right now the status is that France and the UK have surrendered their seats (UN power) to the EU..so if one wanted to go with all of this ..these two Nations could be two of the three "little horns"..and open speculation to all kinds of prophectical "possibilities":) which is why I get a headache trying to keep it all straight albeit find it interesting to watch..

1.) United Kingdom --- UN seat to EU
2.) France -------------- UN seat to EU
3.) Germany
4.) Italy
5.) Belgium
6.) Netherlands
7.) Luxembourg
8.) Portugal (March 27, 1990)
9.) Spain (March 27, 1990)
10.) Greece (1995)

markedward
Nov 28th 2007, 02:28 AM
Although there are most of the world's nations included in the UN, they are not all on the same level. Like I said, there are different groups within the UN. And they also now have a religious group.You seem to be mistaking the UN with the EU.

DanDMan64
Nov 28th 2007, 05:07 PM
...So are you saying you can still have the gift of prophecy and prophesize, but they don't have the title of being a prophet? I'm not sure, so I am just clarifying...

...I completely agree, and it usually annoys me when people act like they know exactly how it will be in the end times. You can believe something, but when people say, "this is it, and if you say otherwise you are wrong", it drives me crazy. Everybody, until it happens, will at least have one aspect of it wrong, unless God reveals the truth to them.Dear MLC, in a way your second statement here can be use to clarify the first.

It is my understanding that there is a difference between the "office of a Prophet" and one who has been blessed with the "gift of prophesy". A prophet in the OT and up to John the Baptist is one who is chosen by God and called to be a prophet, from that point-on their whole life is dedicated to fulfilling that calling, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and aside from the fact that they became oracles of God and became the "voice" of God, in most cases also had great faith and were able to work miracles when God needed them to do so, they also received revelations about things that would happen many years after their death "future world events" if you will. After John many have claimed to be Prophets like Nostradamus, Mohamed and Joseph Smith, but when you look at their fruits you soon find they are false prophets.

In the body of Christ we have many gifts of The Spirit, as taught by Paul to the Corinthians and in other NT scriptures, but this "gift", along with other gifts are meant for the edification of the church, to prepare the church "The bride" for the coming of "The Bridegroom" Christ The Lord. So that the one who has the gift of prophesy is not called to be a prophet in the same sense that the prophets of old were, but is used by The Holy Spirit to bring a word from God for edification of the body of Christ, and not to foretell the future of world events to come, we have the Word of God for that.

The problem arises when some believers read the scriptures, particularly prophecies, and believe they have been shown the "true" interpretation of what they mean exactly, some even claim to have been visited by Christ or an Angel who explained it to them, and in that moment they are convinced that God is calling them to a ministry of "Prophesy", and is their job to show this truth to the whole world, and those who don't believe it or argue with them must be a heretic, because they haven't had the revelation he/she received from The Lord, or been called to the same mission.

I for one believe we all need to go to the scriptures and not take one chapter here or a verse there and say, "Aha, I've got it now Lord", but we need to look at several scriptures and put the pieces together, like a puzzle, and allow the Spirit to guide us into all truth, then we need to share our findings with others to double check and triple check our work because, 2 Corinthians 13:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=13&verse=1&version=31&context=verse) "..."Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.""
Matthew 18:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
"But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

Then we can say "Aha, so this must be what it means", but even then some will not agree, but the truth is the truth, so when it becomes evident let them hear who will hear, but in love don't judge or condemn those who will not hear, leave it up to The Lord to lead them into the truth at a personal level, bottom line is we won't know everything until we reach true perfection, so until then we're just dumb sheep. :lol:

Amazedgrace21
Nov 28th 2007, 07:17 PM
Seems we all can find ourselves making a lot of mistakes if we rely upon our own knowledge..but indeed there is much that is yet to come..and I am deeply grateful and blessed by those who share so much to prayerfully consider, and that they have commited themselves to be found approved for doing so..

As I said, I see these events coming down the pike and we have been commanded to "look up!" That these studies about prophecy are very encouraging and keep our eyes upon the Lord's return..

In light of knowing these things are indeed yet to come and are going to IMHO,we do indeed need to be on the watch for these signs..now a preterist position would be inclined to minimize what one such as myself or others who hold to these beliefs,,I get this, and thats fine..but we do have much in common when it comes to sharing the same messages that Christ himself taught..about the state of this world and all the changes that are taking place that will ramp up in their evilness and nature to discourage and deceive those who do not know where to look for Christ.

I would caution all against pride or arrogance to dismiss this or trivialize it..the OT was full of future events to come that were taught just so those who were watching and seeking would know the signs that Christ had come the first time..and we who have witnessed this first coming of Christ are instructed to tell the world of all the signs we have been given of His return..

Just as there were allegorical messages there were many literal ones among those prophecies..so it would seem to avoid the error of the Pharisees, we must not dismiss either, unless we preach the wrong one regarding many, many signs we have been told to watch for when it comes to the "last days" before our Lords return..as those who did not keep watch for the "last days" before Christs first coming..:hug:

quiet dove
Nov 28th 2007, 09:55 PM
DanDMan64
I for one believe we all need to go to the scriptures and not take one chapter here or a verse there and say, "Aha, I've got it now Lord", but we need to look at several scriptures and put the pieces together, like a puzzle, and allow the Spirit to guide us into all truth, then we need to share our findings with others to double check and triple check our work because,

Excellent thoughts. I know this is off OP but I think it worthy of comment. We can all learn from each other even if one if "pre" one "post" and one "a". I think if we put aside our human pride of being right, including myself, I am guilty, we just may find we learn something. :)

dan
Dec 29th 2007, 11:12 AM
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for this question, and forgive me for being lazy and not researching already opened threads on the matter, but I've always wondered if there are any Bible references as to the influence of the US on the world, being the super power that it is today, and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Has anyone done any research on this, or can recommend a link to a site that deals with this question?

Thanks in advance to all who will contribute, this is not a discussion per say, just way to get some research started. :hmm:

MT 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
MT 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The US is the greatest contributor to The Fruits Of The Kingdom in terms of money and persons.

JN 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
JN 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
JN 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
JN 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

The Children Of God will all gather in the US to escape the Tribulation in greater numbers as it grows worse, until it finally reaches our shores.

The best for last:
The US is the only country that has a Constitution that places it in direct conflict with the beast. Most especially because of the Second Amendment To The Bill Of Rights. Tom, George, Pat, James and the gang knew exactly what they were doing.

JER 6:23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

tango
Dec 29th 2007, 11:35 AM
The best for last:
The US is the only country that has a Constitution that places it in direct conflict with the beast. Most especially because of the Second Amendment To The Bill Of Rights. Tom, George, Pat, James and the gang knew exactly what they were doing.

Excuse my ignorance Dan, could you just clarify how the US Constitution places it in direct conflict with the beast?

Not arguing, just wanting to understand - as a Brit I'm not familiar with the Constitution in any detail.

dan
Dec 29th 2007, 11:52 AM
Excuse my ignorance Dan, could you just clarify how the US Constitution places it in direct conflict with the beast?

Not arguing, just wanting to understand - as a Brit I'm not familiar with the Constitution in any detail.

...The provided scriptures said it well, but:

The rest of the world will stop it's citizenry from owning weapons (a la Britain). This is the teaching of the beast (one and two).

It will cause the beast to acquire power, because he will have weapons.

The US will be the only, or at least the last, one to give in, and only after a big fight.

tango
Dec 29th 2007, 11:57 AM
Got you, thanks for the clarification :)

Francine
Dec 29th 2007, 02:31 PM
One third of all Jews were killed in the Holocaust, but this wasn't even in bible prophesy, so its no wonder America is not in bible prophesy.

dan
Jan 13th 2008, 11:41 PM
...A good possibility exists that the "restrainer" or "preventer" is the US.
We "prevent" Israel from being destroyed.
Iran thinks, I believe, that Israel cannot be destroyed before the US, therefore they will come for us first.

Junietta
Jan 14th 2008, 01:30 AM
Two horns mean two powers

A suggestion

How about the two horns on the second beast representing the U S and the UK Britain ? ? ?

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 04:59 AM
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for this question, and forgive me for being lazy and not researching already opened threads on the matter, but I've always wondered if there are any Bible references as to the influence of the US on the world, being the super power that it is today, and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Has anyone done any research on this, or can recommend a link to a site that deals with this question?

Thanks in advance to all who will contribute, this is not a discussion per say, just way to get some research started. :hmm:

I have never been able to find any kings of the west in scripture or a reference to the US.

In prophecy we have the kings of the north, east and south as major players but no west.

But to hear it preached over the past 50 years no prophecy can happen outside of the US participation. This is probably because the church has always been the most active in the US and probably due to pride thinking the world revolves around us, it has always been assumed that the US is the center of prophecy.

Due to the lack of the kings of the west, anything making the US part of prophecy is a theory.

Years ago I started examining prophecy outside of US participation and questions were answered that had never been answered any many things flew right out the window because far to much is or was being crammed into one twenty four hour period.

I think we are in for a rude wakening here in our country, and not long from now either, thinking that everything will be peaches and cream until the return of Christ/rapture because I think we will be collapsed and gone into national oblivion before Armageddon.

I have written at length about these things if you can find the posts.

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 05:24 AM
There isn't really any lost 13th tribe.

If I or someone else can find the OT reference, you will see that there were originally 14 tribes, two were wiped out, so finding or discovering any more than 12 just cannot be.

My heart's Desire
Jan 14th 2008, 06:13 AM
I don't know the answer, but I do know one thing. It certainly jogged my mind when on the President's recent visit to Israel he was presented with a scroll from some respected Jewish Scholars.
It included the words:
"addressed to "esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, (Ezekiel 38:1) leader of the west."
Not sure their meaning but was interesting to say the least.

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 08:11 AM
EZEK 38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 08:29 AM
I don't know the answer, but I do know one thing. It certainly jogged my mind when on the President's recent visit to Israel he was presented with a scroll from some respected Jewish Scholars.
It included the words:
"addressed to "esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, (Ezekiel 38:1) leader of the west."
Not sure their meaning but was interesting to say the least.

Here is the text content of that scroll they gave Bush.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/megillat-bush.htm

My heart's Desire
Jan 14th 2008, 05:25 PM
EZEK 38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ok so add verse 2 to that. I copied and pasted! :)
I don't think we are Gog or Magog, but why a statement like that during days like we are seeing now? Interesting is all I know. Not bringing it up for a political discussion, just that the statement is biblically based words, used in order to make their point.
In prophecied end times the whole world is included even if not mentioned in the Word specificly.

angelus5370
Jan 14th 2008, 05:37 PM
I will tell you, but, I really doubt that anyone will see it.

In Daniel 7:4 we see a lion with wings like an eagle. The wings are plucked off the lion and they stood up like a man. The lion has always represented England and the eagle represents USA. There is also a bear, which we all know is Russia. And a leopard which is Germany. The 4th Beast is the United Nations, which is the Holy Roman Empire revived.

If you then look at Revelation 13 we see these exact same "Beasts" or "kingdoms" except they are now formed into one. This signifies the United Nations. The fourth Beast. Except, this time we do not see the USA. Either the USA is gone or is not part of the A/C's kingdom.

So, the USA is clearly in prophecy. It's just not clear what happens to her.

I have also thought this, and wrote a post on this, but I feel the US will be in hiding with the Jews in the wilderness according to this scripture:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (which adds up to 7 years) from the face of the serpent..................:)

quiet dove
Jan 14th 2008, 05:54 PM
Ok so add verse 2 to that. I copied and pasted! :)
I don't think we are Gog or Magog, but why a statement like that during days like we are seeing now? Interesting is all I know. Not bringing it up for a political discussion, just that the statement is biblically based words, used in order to make their point.
In prophecied end times the whole world is included even if not mentioned in the Word specificly.

What is so strange about it, if you going on down to v3, why would they want Bush to be Gog? I mean why would this Gog be said to have the ability to do what Cyrus did? I am missing the point or something with this, maybe I didnt read it well enough. Me confused.:confused

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 10:12 PM
Ok so add verse 2 to that. I copied and pasted! :)
I don't think we are Gog or Magog, but why a statement like that during days like we are seeing now? Interesting is all I know. Not bringing it up for a political discussion, just that the statement is biblically based words, used in order to make their point.
In prophecied end times the whole world is included even if not mentioned in the Word specificly.

I checked the text of the scroll in several of its posted locations and as it turns out, it is a typo in the scroll, so whoever did that quoted the wrong verse in reference to their comments.

Unless of course they have an alternate copy of Ezekiel.

DanDMan64
Jan 14th 2008, 10:50 PM
I have also thought this, and wrote a post on this, but I feel the US will be in hiding with the Jews in the wilderness according to this scripture:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, (which adds up to 7 years) from the face of the serpent..................:)Interesting you bring this-up, please point me to your post on this point as I have often thought this was a possible interpretation in reference to the US and it's location in the globe.

What I mean is that I believe the US is that great eagle, the two wings are perhaps two of it's military branches such as the USAF and the Marine Corps, providing transport for thousands of Jewish refugees to camps designated for them in our own territories, "The wilderness" if you will, far removed half a world away from Israel.

In my mind that makes more sense than us being the second beast and an Enemy of Israel instead of what we have traditionally been, an friend in time of need. :hug:

napsnsnacks
Jan 14th 2008, 11:29 PM
Interesting you bring this-up, please point me to your post on this point as I have often thought this was a possible interpretation in reference to the US and it's location in the globe.

What I mean is that I believe the US is that great eagle, the two wings are perhaps two of it's military branches such as the USAF and the Marine Corps, providing transport for thousands of Jewish refugees to camps designated for them in our own territories, "The wilderness" if you will, far removed half a world away from Israel.

In my mind that makes more sense than us being the second beast and an Enemy of Israel instead of what we have traditionally been, an friend in time of need. :hug:

Considering Israel's hard nosed stance one must entertain the idea that the Israeli's will evacuate when swarmed with the enemy. If so the women and children would be first. Their current policy is to fight to the death, use their nukes, even possibly nuke themselves to prevent any real use of Israel by other interests. Inevitably they will have to go to US territory since no one would want them. The US countryside is dotted all over with unused FEMA camps. There are several websites speculating about the future use of these areas.

Evacuating Israelis to the US is a big scenario so if there is a plan for such a thing I would also be interested in checking it out because that means that the US is still intact.

DanDMan64
Jan 15th 2008, 12:04 AM
Considering Israel's hard nosed stance one must entertain the idea that the Israeli's will evacuate when swarmed with the enemy. If so the women and children would be first. Their current policy is to fight to the death, use their nukes, even possibly nuke themselves to prevent any real use of Israel by other interests. Inevitably they will have to go to US territory since no one would want them. The US countryside is dotted all over with unused FEMA camps. There are several websites speculating about the future use of these areas.

Evacuating Israelis to the US is a big scenario so if there is a plan for such a thing I would also be interested in checking it out because that means that the US is still intact.Well, I believe a seven year treaty brokered by the AC so that Israel can build their temple, would probably have some non aggression clause limiting Israel's ability or willingness to use it's nukes, or perhaps even a requirement by their enemies that the nukes be disarmed altogether, and who knows what the Israelis might be willing to agree to in order to finally get their precious temple built again.

As to the US being intact, I don't see why not, after all God did promise to bless them that bless Israel. ;)

My heart's Desire
Jan 15th 2008, 05:57 AM
What is so strange about it, if you going on down to v3, why would they want Bush to be Gog? I mean why would this Gog be said to have the ability to do what Cyrus did? I am missing the point or something with this, maybe I didnt read it well enough. Me confused.:confused
I reread the document and the Gog phrase didn't seem to have much bearing on the rest of what I read. They are just asking that as Cyrus, king of Persia allowed Israel to go back to their land, our President should accept that God gave Israel the land and it shouldn't be divided. They gave verses to back that up. They are asking for him to not divide the land instead of coming against the land as I guess Gog will do.

quiet dove
Jan 15th 2008, 06:03 AM
I reread the document and the Gog phrase didn't seem to have much bearing on the rest of what I read. They are just asking that as Cyrus, king of Persia allowed Israel to go back to their land, our President should accept that God gave Israel the land and it shouldn't be divided. They gave verses to back that up. They are asking for him to not divide the land instead of coming against the land as I guess Gog will do.

Thanks. I sure don't want to be any part of Gog, thats for sure.

dan
Jan 15th 2008, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by SueMerritt View Post
I will tell you, but, I really doubt that anyone will see it.

In Daniel 7:4 we see a lion with wings like an eagle. The wings are plucked off the lion and they stood up like a man. The lion has always represented England and the eagle represents USA. There is also a bear, which we all know is Russia. And a leopard which is Germany. The 4th Beast is the United Nations, which is the Holy Roman Empire revived.

...That the leopard was Africa. What prompted the thought that it was Germany?

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 04:24 PM
Whre is the US in Bible prophesy?

It is one of the nations whose fields are ripe for the harvest.

Laborers are reaping within it, just like they have been throughout all nations since Pentecost.

The reaping will continue within the US and all nations, until the Lord returns, shuts the door, and those who are His enter into the Marriage with Him forevermore.

DanDMan64
Jan 15th 2008, 04:52 PM
I reread the document and the Gog phrase didn't seem to have much bearing on the rest of what I read. They are just asking that as Cyrus, king of Persia allowed Israel to go back to their land, our President should accept that God gave Israel the land and it shouldn't be divided. They gave verses to back that up. They are asking for him to not divide the land instead of coming against the land as I guess Gog will do.To me this document only shows one thing, that the Jewish leaders of today are just as blind as the leaders Jesus confronted in His day. They were blessed in the past with the Holy scriptures and through them they were shown the plan of salvation through "Yeshua HaMasiach", but they were blinded so that scripture could be fulfilled, and just like it was then, it was pride and politics that blinded them so that they could not understand God's plan, still today they randomly quote scripture to suite their political ends instead of letting scripture be their guide to see what politics they should be following. But even as then their blindness served to fulfill God's will, it will do so again in these last days, as they seek to rebuild a temple to restore animal sacrifices which are no longer necessary.;)

Bottom line, don't put too much stock on this document or it's reference to Bush as "the the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal", If they couldn't clearly see the coming of their own Messiah through prophesy, what makes you think they understand their own prophesy any better today. I think they were just trying to flatter Bush with a fancy title that sounds "Biblical" and even prophetic, but I doubt they even understand what it really means, when even us "The enlightened ones" can't even agree on what it means ourselves. :hmm:

DanDMan64
Jan 15th 2008, 05:06 PM
Whre is the US in Bible prophesy?

It is one of the nations whose fields are ripe for the harvest.

Laborers are reaping within it, just like they have been throughout all nations since Pentecost.

The reaping will continue within the US and all nations, until the Lord returns, shuts the door, and those who are His enter into the Marriage with Him forevermore.David, thanks for your contribution to this thread, though I got to tell you it's not very helpful to just state the obvious and leave it at that.

From your comments it sounds like you're a pre-tribulationist, and in your view we shouldn't concern ourselves with what the world will be like when the door gets shut, just let the waters rise and let everyone either sink or swim and hope for the best.

Having been a pre-triber myself for most of my life I appreciate your comments, though I think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility that we could be misinterpreting scripture, and perhaps it is the mid-tribers or even the post-tribers that got it right, and if so wouldn't it be helpful to understand what to expect in case we have to go through part or even all of the tribulation? specially for those of us that happen to live in the good-ol US of A, don't you think? :hmm:

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 06:11 PM
From your comments it sounds like you're a pre-tribulationist, and in your view we shouldn't concern ourselves with what the world will be like when the door gets shut, just let the waters rise and let everyone either sink or swim and hope for the best.


Dan,
Me a Pretribber? :rofl::rofl::rofl: (alot of the forum regulars will get a laugh out of this one....)

You might want to spend some time getting to know folks in here Dan, before deciding what viewpoint they are, and telling them what they aren't concerned with.

I've been an active posting member in this forum for years, and am about as far from Pre-Trib as one can be; and there are hundreds of posts here in the ETC that make that pretty clear, pretty quickly.

Nothing in my comment has any Pretrib slant to it, and I'm sorry if you received it in that manner, for whatever reason.




Having been a pre-triber myself for most of my life I appreciate your comments, though I think it would be unwise to ignore the possibility that we could be misinterpreting scripture, and perhaps it is the mid-tribers or even the post-tribers that got it right, and if so wouldn't it be helpful to understand what to expect in case we have to go through part or even all of the tribulation? specially for those of us that happen to live in the good-ol US of A, don't you think? :hmm:


Having lived in the US of A for over 40 years, I feel confident that regardless of how severe situations become in whatever lifetime I am graced to have left, that the Lord will continue to be my shepherd, and provide for me as he sees fit. I am ready, expectant, and watchful for His return; and regardless of when it occurs, I see the fundamental important task for US A believers is to continue spreading the gospel to all nations until the end of the World....as Matthew 28:19-20 tells us.

I certainly am not looking for an early escape, a secret departure, or an exemption from any calamities and persecution that might befall this old globe during my tenure here.

I favor Peter's outlook and approach of expectation:

I Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

DanDMan64
Jan 15th 2008, 08:23 PM
Dan,
Me a Pretribber? :rofl::rofl::rofl: (alot of the forum regulars will get a laugh out of this one....)

You might want to spend some time getting to know folks in here Dan, before deciding what viewpoint they are, and telling them what they aren't concerned with.

I've been an active posting member in this forum for years, and am about as far from Pre-Trib as one can be; and there are hundreds of posts here in the ETC that make that pretty clear, pretty quickly.

Nothing in my comment has any Pretrib slant to it, and I'm sorry if you received it in that manner, for whatever reason.





Having lived in the US of A for over 40 years, I feel confident that regardless of how severe situations become in whatever lifetime I am graced to have left, that the Lord will continue to be my shepherd, and provide for me as he sees fit. I am ready, expectant, and watchful for His return; and regardless of when it occurs, I see the fundamental important task for US A believers is to continue spreading the gospel to all nations until the end of the World....as Matthew 28:19-20 tells us.

I certainly am not looking for an early escape, a secret departure, or an exemption from any calamities and persecution that might befall this old globe during my tenure here.

I favor Peter's outlook and approach of expectation:

I Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."
Hey Dave, I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean any disrespect, I've only been on these boards for about five months and I haven't been spending too much time in the ETC, mainly because I'm not too fond of debates, I have my views and people are free to have their own, and I just told you my gut feeling of what I thought you believed based on your post that I replied to.

As to the "slant" that made me think that, as I said, having been mainly a pre-trib myself most of my life I'm familiar with the reference to Noah's Ark as a type of a pre-trib view of Christ sealing His church and sparing them from the judgment to come. Now you've made it clear you don't hold to that view despite your reference to Noah's flood, so am I to understand you're view is "a-trib" if you will? meaning you really don't care if its pre, mid, or post, but you just will persevere to the end no matter when that end happens to come?

That's fine, I actually feel the same way, though I do like to keep my eyes open and "watch" for the signs, it's just that "Always Prepared" attitude I learned when I was a Boy Scout. :lol:

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 09:21 PM
Hey Dave, I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean any disrespect, I've only been on these boards for about five months and I haven't been spending too much time in the ETC, mainly because I'm not too fond of debates, I have my views and people are free to have their own, and I just told you my gut feeling of what I thought you believed based on your post that I replied to.

No problem...no offense taken...it was just kinda like calling Tim Lahaye a Whidby Postmillennialist.....something along way from actuality.




As to the "slant" that made me think that, as I said, having been mainly a pre-trib myself most of my life I'm familiar with the reference to Noah's Ark as a type of a pre-trib view of Christ sealing His church and sparing them from the judgment to come. Now you've made it clear you don't hold to that view despite your reference to Noah's flood,
Well, me thinks you have me confused with someone else. My post above made no reference to Noah's flood.

However, while we're on the topic, I'll share my view of Noah's flood.

God called the wicked to repent. They didn't.
God called the wicked to repent some more. They didn't.
God called the wicked to repent for decade after decade. They didn't.
God warned they would be destroyed if they didn't repent. They didn't.
God then, destroyed the Earth and all living things within it. The wicked perished on the same day God closed the door and the rains started to fall.
Noah, was kept ---"THROUGH"--- the judgment of God. Divinely protected within the Ark, and very much remaining mortal, remaining corruptible, and remaining on planet Earth, with absolutely no remote example of being removed from the planet for protection. (As pretrib sometimes likes to attempt to make a 'type')And when Jesus was talking about His future coming, "AFTER (not before) The Tribulation", Jesus said that again, the wicked will be destoyed when the Lord returns from Heaven....just like in old Noah's day. No seven year sheme....Jesus just said when He returns, the wicked will be destroyed like they were the day Noah entered the Ark.






so am I to understand you're view is "a-trib" if you will? meaning you really don't care if its pre, mid, or post, but you just will persevere to the end no matter when that end happens to come?
Never heard the term 'a-trib'.

I would fall under the historic view of posttrib, however, I would quantify that by saying there is no '7-year' trib either, as dispensationalism invented and popularized in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When I say post-trib, I see 'the trib' as an undefined time period that spans the N.T. Harvest era; and concludes at Jesus' return. It will be more severe at the end when He returns, but it won't be limited to 7 years as dispensationalism conjectures.

Bottom line, my view is that when Christ returns....that's it. As Paul said in 1 Cor 15, at Christ's Coming then comes the end. period. Jesus' elect are united with Him and changed immortal, incorruptible, and glorified evermore; and the wicked are gathered and cast into the fire and burned. I guess that puts me most closely aligned with the historic Amillennial model of eschatology. Therefore, the reason I said that the harvest is what is ongoing in the US of A, and will continue here and in all nations until the Lord returns....ala Matthew 13, and Matthew 25, and other places.





That's fine, I actually feel the same way, though I do like to keep my eyes open and "watch" for the signs, it's just that "Always Prepared" attitude I learned when I was a Boy Scout. :lol:

I never really considered looking for signs....Jesus tended to from on the notion of looking for signs. I prefer just to look for Him personally.

DanDMan64
Jan 15th 2008, 10:34 PM
...Well, me thinks you have me confused with someone else. My post above made no reference to Noah's flood. Again I apologize, when I hear the term "shuts the door" in the context of an ETC discussion I usually visualize the door in Noah's Ark being shut by God just before the rains hit, my mistake.
...Noah, was kept ---"THROUGH"--- the judgment of God. Divinely protected within the Ark, and very much remaining mortal, remaining corruptible, and remaining on planet Earth, with absolutely no remote example of being removed from the planet for protection. (As pretrib sometimes likes to attempt to make a 'type') good point, which is why I'm not that big on the pre-trib view anymore.
...Never heard the term 'a-trib'. That's because I just made-it-up, :lol: though I'm not sure the grammar is right, I meant it as a term to describe a view of someone who's convinced that all interpretations are irrelevant as long as salvation itself is not compromised by holding to or not holding to any view.
...I would fall under the historic view of posttrib, however, I would quantify that by saying there is no '7-year' trib either, as dispensationalism invented and popularized in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When I say post-trib, I see 'the trib' as an undefined time period that spans the N.T. Harvest era; and concludes at Jesus' return. It will be more severe at the end when He returns, but it won't be limited to 7 years as dispensationalism conjectures.So would you say that we are already in the tribulation? it seems to me that's what you're implying.
...Bottom line, my view is that when Christ returns....that's it. As Paul said in 1 Cor 15, at Christ's Coming then comes the end. period. Jesus' elect are united with Him and changed immortal, incorruptible, and glorified evermore; and the wicked are gathered and cast into the fire and burned. I guess that puts me most closely aligned with the historic Amillennial model of eschatology. Therefore, the reason I said that the harvest is what is ongoing in the US of A, and will continue here and in all nations until the Lord returns....ala Matthew 13, and Matthew 25, and other places. Yea, that's fine, but don't you think it's important to keep and eye out for the Anti Christ at least, I mean I don't know about you, but I for one am glad John was given the Revelation if at all, to keep me from allowing anyone to stamp me in my right hand or my forehead with a "brand" of allegiance against everything I hold dear, mainly my salvation. or do you think I'm being too literal and therefore paranoid? :hmm:

...I never really considered looking for signs....Jesus tended to from on the notion of looking for signs. I prefer just to look for Him personally.Well on this I have to disagree a bit, as I mentioned before Jesus Himself gave us a whole bunch of signs to watch-out for in the book of Revelation, and even though I don't claim to understand it all, I just take from it what I believe the Spirit wants me to understand clearly, and let others argue over the symbolism stuff, but it would be foolish to ignore it altogether, or to say that's all symbolism and none of it is really going to happen literally.:o

David Taylor
Jan 15th 2008, 11:18 PM
Again I apologize, when I hear the term "shuts the door" in the context of an ETC discussion I usually visualize the door in Noah's Ark being shut by God just before the rains hit, my mistake. good point, which is why I'm not that big on the pre-trib view anymore.

OK, I see where you got it from that. I was actually using the door reference in association with the post-trib return of Christ at the midnight hour for the Marriage as depicted in Matthew 25:10.



So would you say that we are already in the tribulation? it seems to me that's what you're implying.

I would say that Jesus Himself, along with Luke, Paul and John all said we were in tribulation in the first century, and it would continue until His return....it just gets worse and more severe towards the final climactic Day of our Lord's return in Glory and Judgment.



Yea, that's fine, but don't you think it's important to keep and eye out for the Anti Christ at least, I mean I don't know about you, but I for one am glad John was given the Revelation if at all, to keep me from allowing anyone to stamp me in my right hand or my forehead with a "brand" of allegiance against everything I hold dear, mainly my salvation. or do you think I'm being too literal and therefore paranoid? :hmm:

Since we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and bought with a price too high to pay, it really doesn't matter what schemes and tricks the devil wants to use or play or come up with. We are more than conquerors through Christ who stengthens us. Paul said in Romans 8:31-39 that we can whip the devil's butt and he can't stand against us because of what Christ has accomplished for us; those He loves. So I just keep looking for Him, amidst the continued decay of our society.





Well on this I have to disagree a bit, as I mentioned before Jesus Himself gave us a whole bunch of signs to watch-out for in the book of Revelation, and even though I don't claim to understand it all, I just take from it what I believe the Spirit wants me to understand clearly, and let others argue over the symbolism stuff, but it would be foolish to ignore it altogether, or to say that's all symbolism and none of it is really going to happen literally.:o

When the lights in the sky begin to go out, and the mountains and islands flee....the look up towards the Eastern Sky....for your redemption draweth nigh!

ShirleyFord
Jan 15th 2008, 11:38 PM
When the lights in the sky begin to go out, and the mountains and islands flee....the look up towards the Eastern Sky....for your redemption draweth nigh!

Amen!

Jesus said Himself:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


That is what I live for
That is what I long for
That is Who I'm waiting for!

DanDMan64
Jan 16th 2008, 12:06 AM
...Since we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and bought with a price too high to pay, it really doesn't matter what schemes and tricks the devil wants to use or play or come up with. We are more than conquerors through Christ who stengthens us. Paul said in Romans 8:31-39 that we can whip the devil's butt and he can't stand against us because of what Christ has accomplished for us; those He loves. So I just keep looking for Him, amidst the continued decay of our society...

When the lights in the sky begin to go out, and the mountains and islands flee....the look up towards the Eastern Sky....for your redemption draweth nigh!Again, all excellent points Dave, and I agree for the most part with everything you say, though I would like to comment on the last two as they are most relevant to my thread's purpose about the USA.

if indeed we must go through the toughest part of the tribulation, I do believe it would be wiser to prepare for the worst and build-up our spiritual man/woman, so that when confronted by our own leaders with the choice: "Take the mark so you can live under the new world order, or don't take it and die as a traitor" we will love the Lord more than our own selves and be prepared to pay the ultimate price for our Lord, as He did for us.:cry: Of course I hope it won't come to that, but we shouldn't rule it out as a possibility.

Also remember that all Bible prophesy take Jerusalem as the point of reference geographically from which all happens, and the words "mountains and Islands" can also be interpreted as "continents" it could very well be our own American continent that gets wiped away, or as one poster expressed, it may be that America turns-out to be "Babylon The Great" that gets destroyed in Revelation 18, so that either way we die a horrible death, at least we will be found worthy to have endured in Christ to the end and will be resurrected unto glorification and eternal salvation. :pray:, but I do pray if that were the case our death will be painless, or somehow we will be spared from having to suffer it. ;)

ShirleyFord
Jan 16th 2008, 02:16 AM
if indeed we must go through the toughest part of the tribulation, I do believe it would be wiser to prepare for the worst and build-up our spiritual man/woman, so that when confronted by our own leaders with the choice: "Take the mark so you can live under the new world order, or don't take it and die as a traitor" we will love the Lord more than our own selves and be prepared to pay the ultimate price for our Lord, as He did for us.:cry: Of course I hope it won't come to that, but we shouldn't rule it out as a possibility.

Dan,

According to Revelation 13, only those who first worship the dragon and the first beast and the image of the first beast receive the mark of the beast.

And we also have these references in Revelation showing worship in connection with the mark of the beast:

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the markof his name.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Jesus promised us, "In this world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33)

But He didn't leave it at that... "but be of good cheer for I have overcome the world."


Paul wrote to young Timothy, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12)


His grace is sufficient regardless of what we have to go through. The prophets of old believed so who died for the cause of Christ. The disciples of Jesus believed so who suffered and died for His Name.

Then there is the Apostle Paul. He had all that this world could offer before he met Jesus on the Damascus Road. But he didn't have Jesus. Ater he met Jesus, he had this testimony:

Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,



Shirley

My heart's Desire
Jan 16th 2008, 05:37 AM
Whre is the US in Bible prophesy?

It is one of the nations whose fields are ripe for the harvest.

Laborers are reaping within it, just like they have been throughout all nations since Pentecost.

The reaping will continue within the US and all nations, until the Lord returns, shuts the door,

Well, I'm pretrib all the way rapture wise, but I still think your comment is good concerning U.S as far as Prophecy is. I don't think we're in the Bible specificly, but definately as your post above. ;)

brakelite
Jan 16th 2008, 09:58 AM
Quote: However, while we're on the topic, I'll share my view of Noah's flood.
God called the wicked to repent. They didn't.
God called the wicked to repent some more. They didn't.
God called the wicked to repent for decade after decade. They didn't.
God warned they would be destroyed if they didn't repent. They didn't.
God then, destroyed the Earth and all living things within it. The wicked perished on the same day God closed the door and the rains started to fall.
Noah, was kept ---"THROUGH"--- the judgment of God. Divinely protected within the Ark, and very much remaining mortal, remaining corruptible, and remaining on planet Earth, with absolutely no remote example of being removed from the planet for protection. (As pretrib sometimes likes to attempt to make a 'type')

May I add something to your summary of events?
At the moment Jesus is ministering in the heavenly sancuary as our intercessor and mediator. When He leaves the temple to return to the earth, there will be a time before He arrives here, that there will be no mediator. His ministry will be finished. Thus, there will be no more possibility of mercy being found for the wicked. Their time will be over in which they have opportunity to repent. Just as there was a time between the shut door of the ark and the flood--7 days. A time of fear and forboding while the clouds were gathering and and the light drizzle began perhaps. But although the wicked were suddenly aware that Noah had spoken the truth, it was too late. The door was shut.
We should be preparing today, while salvation is possible. Because when we see Jesus , for the righteous- rejoicing; for the wicked, terror. Too late to repent then.
And who's to know? Maybe the door will shut before the final days of tribulation.
So no use waiting and putting off the time for getting our lives right til the first of the plagues. It could be too late then too.

DanDMan64
Jan 16th 2008, 06:18 PM
At the moment Jesus is ministering in the heavenly sancuary as our intercessor and mediator. When He leaves the temple to return to the earth, there will be a time before He arrives here, that there will be no mediator. His ministry will be finished.Brakelite, I don't follow your logic here, Christ's ministry as a mediator is not bound by where He ministers from, His sacrifice was offered once and is acceptable to God the Father always, where ever He is His ministry is with Him, or is a Pastor only a pastor when He preaches from the pulpit on Sunday, or is he called to be a pastor 24/7? Did the Levites stop being priests when they left the tabernacle? It is true they could only offer sacrifices within the confines of the tabernacle area, but Christ is not a priest after the order of Levi, Hebrews is clear He is a priest after the order of Melchizedek who was a roaming priest who was able to bless from any location.
...Thus, there will be no more possibility of mercy being found for the wicked. Their time will be over in which they have opportunity to repent. Just as there was a time between the shut door of the ark and the flood--7 days. A time of fear and forboding while the clouds were gathering and and the light drizzle began perhaps. But although the wicked were suddenly aware that Noah had spoken the truth, it was too late. The door was shut.I have problems with this statements as well, if your contention is that the tribulation has to last 7 years because there were 7 days of rain after the door was shut, before the flood got "really bad"? wouldn't logic dictate that if the real judgment lasted 40 days then the tribulation would get worst after 7 years and then go on for another 40 years? :o. Aside from that, I know that God is just, but He's also merciful and is His will that none should perish, and as I read the events of the tribulation there's plenty of evidence to show that even during the tribulation period there will be mercy shown to-wards those who do not take the mark of the beast or worship his image, (Rev 14:13) and to those who heed the voice of the Angel preaching the everlasting gospel, and repent and worship God (Rev. 14:6).
...We should be preparing today, while salvation is possible. Because when we see Jesus , for the righteous- rejoicing; for the wicked, terror. Too late to repent then. And who's to know? Maybe the door will shut before the final days of tribulation. So no use waiting and putting off the time for getting our lives right til the first of the plagues. It could be too late then too. I'm sorry my friend, but I don't think this whole premise of yours is scripturally sound. I agree that the gift of salvation is precious and should not be ignored or rejected or neglected, and the sooner we accept it and make it our own the better, but I don't see where in scripture it says that He shuts the door of salvation to anyone, and in fact I believe that if anything, the judgments of the tribulation will serve to win more souls for God than ever before in history, and who are we to say who can be saved and who can't, or when is the acceptable time for salvation, the word says "today" is the acceptable time, so how is your "today" better than other people's "today".:hmm:

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating to stop preaching the gospel now or stop witnessing to people now because they may still be saved "the hard way" during the tribulation, and I know death is at the door and no one has the luxury of tomorrow or even the next few minutes to put-off accepting the gift of salvation. But I believe in a God who's loving and merciful even as He is just, and I don't think He ever closes his ears to hear the cries of those who come to Him and truly repent, regardless of when they decide to call to Him, bottom line I believe that while there's life, there's always hope.;)

danield
Jan 18th 2008, 01:49 AM
I too see the USA being the Mystery Woman of Babylon. There are several reasons why many of which were listed by some previous posters. But here are a few of my thoughts on the subject.
First of all The mystery Woman is referred to as a city.



Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Ronald Regan referred to The USA as being the shining city on the hill. I know this is skinny but also our way of government is modeled after the old city states of Greece. What better way to tag a future government from John’s knowledge of history. Democracy was not around 2000 years ago, and the only way they identified with it was from the Greek city states.


Secondly, Rev 17:1 and 2 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters.
We do have extremely strong influence all over the world. If this phrase is not talking about influence then we do have territories and other states that sit on many waters.


With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
We have exported our immorality to the many nations of the world. I know that the USA is good, but we do have some really dark sides to our nation. Look at what comes out of Hollywood. Any action movie produced today typically has the lord’s name in vain several times. One of our favorite vacation spots is Vegas. Also Greed is a big way of life for us. I know I don’t need to list all the immoralities we have because they are obvious. With the freedom and the riches we have, many have forgotten or even reject the Lord all together.

Also the actual name the mystery woman of Babylon refers to a woman who is not of the mainstream of every day life of Babylon. Babylon of today is Bagdad. And our army or presence will be felt there for years to come. However we are the backbone of stability for their government. I am not sure if anyone else can see this unique relationship but I think it is there. Also the statue of Liberty is defiantly in the image of a woman.


Also, Rev 17:18 In a single moment all the wealth of the city is gone!” And all the captains of the merchant ships and their passengers and sailors and crews will stand at a distance. They will cry out as they watch the smoke ascend, and they will say, “Where is there another city as great as this?” And they will weep and throw dust on their heads to show their grief. And they will cry out, “How terrible, how terrible for that great city! The shipowners became wealthy by transporting her great wealth on the seas. In a single moment it is all gone.”
Here we see something unique. The USA imports goods from many nations around the world and we have made them extremely wealthy. But what is unique about this is that the ships cry out from a Distance. In any catastrophe besides a nuclear assault those ships will be able to enter the port and trade, but the radiation fall out will keep them looking at a distance.
Also, the book of Daniel talks about the kings of the north, south, and east at battles but it leaves out the king of the west. We are the strongest nation in the world. You can take us and put us in a sever recession, depression, or any other economic event and we still will have the capability to cause major destruction throughout the world. Even though our stock market goes down our ICBM’s are not going through a recession. They will still be there to take part in a world conflict. We are a part of this world in a big way and the only way to stop that is for the USA to have some sort of defeat.


Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people I stared at her in complete amazement.
I can’t think of any other country that witnesses more for Christ than the USA. I know there are other countries that witness for Christ but the USA really puts forth a big effort to spread the word through local congregation, TV, and outreach ministries. This country was also built on Judo-Christian values. This should be obvious.


Rev 7:9 “This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings.
I don’t want to talk about the seven kings but the USA does have 7 mountain ranges or hills within its boarders. The Rocky Mountains, the Appalachian mountains, the Sierra Nevada, the Cascades, the Brooks range, the Alaska range, and finally the Coast Range.Anyway, these are just a few reasons why I think the USA is mentioned in the Bible. I really hope I am wrong.

The Parson
Jan 18th 2008, 02:17 AM
Dan,
Me a Pretribber? :rofl::rofl::rofl: (alot of the forum regulars will get a laugh out of this one....)

Dave, you been Pre Tribbing again... I thought you were kicking that habit...

How about this my dear folks? Isaiah 18:1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: 18:2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled! 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye. 18:4 For so the Lord said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. 18:5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches. 18:6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. 18:7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion.

Just a thought... Reckon we gotta simularity here???

napsnsnacks
Jan 18th 2008, 08:30 AM
I don’t want to talk about the seven kings but the USA does have 7 mountain ranges or hills within its boarders. The Rocky Mountains, the Appalachian mountains, the Sierra Nevada, the Cascades, the Brooks range, the Alaska range, and finally the Coast Range.

Ok, I'll talk about it for a short...

Interesting application of scripture as it may apply to the US but this last part is a bit "skinny."

It alludes to the idea that prophecy could have never been fulfilled, Christ could have never come back and Armageddon never happen until after the area of Alaska was brought into the states as a member state when this figurative version of "Babylon" being a conglomeration of states didn't even exist until the past few hundred years.

Until this happened, could have the native inhabitants of this land fit the description of this "Babylon" in Revelations? No, so that kind of puts away our version of 7 hills on our continent being the 7 hills of prophecy from the beginning because of imminency. What we need to look for is these 7 hills that have been there all along through history in various places that could have easily hosted whatever nation existed on those 7 hills as being capable of being this "Babylon."

Christ related imminence even before and books of the NT (that contained similar statements) were written and even before John penned the Revelation. So based on that fact alone, OT prophecy could have come to pass before our perception of all the "pieces fell together" thousands of years later or there was no imminence (Jesus, the NT and John wasn't telling the truth in the warnings?) and it it was impossible for prophecy to come to pass until thousands of years of diabolical plotting and planning by invisible Satanic interests.

We can't have it both ways.

Either there always existed imminency or there did not.

To err on the side of caution, we should accept that prophecy could have been fulfilled, Christ could have come back and Armageddon could have happened from the moment Christ spoke of such imminency AND examine in detail all these details that have existed all along such as these requiements and details were in place as soon as Jesus spoke of imminence.

These "details and requirements" for prophecy, I speculate, have been in existence since the moment Jesus spoke of imminency. In other words, the necessary social, religious, governmental, financial and political platforms have always been intact and present in some form or another so that imminency may be real, but, the invisible/Satanic efforts have been thwarted all and could easily be thwarted several thousand more years.

In that advent, imminency in itself would show that the mark of the beast and a one world government and a one world economy and one world religion obviously would not have been global.

Given all that, it is bits and pieces of these two scenarios, fulfilled/not fulfilled, pre-trib/no pre-trib, is where the different denominations come from on the issue of prophetical doctrine but thats a deeper subject matter than is at hand since I think both are correct but only in part but if you put the both together you get meat BECAUSE IT ALL COULD HAVE COME TO PASS ALL ALONG.

DanDMan64
Jan 18th 2008, 06:18 PM
I too see the USA being the Mystery Woman of Babylon. There are several reasons why many of which were listed by some previous posters. But here are a few of my thoughts on the subject.
First of all The mystery Woman is referred to as a city.Daniel, one of the reasons I started this thread is because it seemed to me a bit strange, that the US being as large and influential as it has become in the last two centuries, to the point that it is generally acknowledged as the chief superpower among the superpowers of the world, was somehow not even mentioned in scripture or rather "Bible prophesy".

It seems to me that the reason for this is that it pleased God to not detract from the general purpose of the main story of scripture, which is how He relates to humanity in general through his relation to His chosen "focus point" of the land of Israel and it's surrounding neighbors.

But even then I would think that because of our understanding of that fact, and our historical acknowledgment of that fact by our policy to be a friend to, supporter of, and in times even defender of, the newly restored Israel; that God would honor us with at least "an honorable mention" of some sort, even if not named directly, and I had high hopes that someone would have been illuminated by The Spirit as to where that obscure reference might be found.

However I find it fascinating that to so many, the USA is such an evil and terrible force of oppression and a symbol of everything that's wrong with the world today, that they can only see it as a worthy recipient of God's wrath, and only references to it's evil nature and it's due punishment are worthy of mention in scripture.

I know it is true that The USA deserves in many ways the "bad reputation" that it has been creating for itself, because of it's departure from the Biblical Judeo-Christian values it was founded upon originally, specially over the past 50 years or so. But even with all that there's still a lot of good things about the US that should be acknowledged as well, specially by those nations we have helped with our resources and political support, to allow them to prosper and in some cases even reach their own Independence, and even though they may have a tendency to forget all that and turn their backs on us, I don't think God would be one to also forget how we also have mightily been used by Him, to bring the gospel to much of the world by undertaking His great commission.

My point is that I don't see the USA as "Babylon the Great", I think the traditional view of most evangelical Bible Scholars as "The Roman Catholic Church" being the most probable recipient of that undistinguished honor is correct. To say that the USA is worthy of that title based solely on the indiscretions and misguided actions and intentions of it's mostly secular leaders of recent years up to today, is a bit exaggerated and not a very wise interpretation of the scriptures. :2cents:

napsnsnacks
Jan 18th 2008, 07:33 PM
It was the examination of imminency that opened the door to me on the idea that if there is going to be a rapture it could have happened at any time after Jesus ascension until now and subsequently there would be an as yet undetermined amount of time between the rapture and the day of the beginning the 7 years when this already in place global or non global ruler known as antichrist makes the peace agreement, then breaks it 3 1/2 years later as is historically taught that the rapture and the first day of the tribulation are the same day.

An imminent rapture that could have happened all along and without any usable global anything type of platform for antichrist to occupy dictates that at the imminent rapture the world goes to chaos and war then antichrist somehow rises out of the ashes.

Imminency has related all along that there can be a rapture without there being present any one world government/currency/religion.

See?

DanDMan64
Jan 18th 2008, 08:16 PM
It was the examination of imminency that opened the door to me on the idea that if there is going to be a rapture it could have happened at any time after Jesus ascension until now and subsequently there would be an as yet undetermined amount of time between the rapture and the day of the beginning the 7 years when this already in place global or non global ruler known as antichrist makes the peace agreement, then breaks it 3 1/2 years later as is historically taught that the rapture and the first day of the tribulation are the same day.

An imminent rapture that could have happened all along and without any usable global anything type of platform for antichrist to occupy dictates that at the imminent rapture the world goes to chaos and war then antichrist somehow rises out of the ashes.

Imminency has related all along that there can be a rapture without there being present any one world government/currency/religion.

See?I agree, in fact I believe it is a misguided and somewhat irrational interpretation of that principle, that has caused some to believe that "imminency" and "immediacy" are the same thing, so therefore because the rapture and the other end times events surrounding it were expressed by our Lord and other prophets and apostles with that ring of "immanency", it must have meant that it could only take place during that first century church period.

If you guessed I'm referring to those who hold to the "Preterist" or "full-Preterist" view, you guessed right. But please don't get me started on that discussion, I'm only bringing it-up because I just got done refuting that view on another thread about that, as best I could.:B

Please, if there are any who hold to that view reading this and are ready to comment on why it is right and I am wrong, pretty please with sugar on top, DON'T derail this thread, since obviously if you believe all prophesy has been fulfilled already then there's very little you can contribute here about the role of the USA on that since it didn't even exist as a nation by 70AD. As the OP I'd rather keep this a "Futurists" only discussion.:)

Also note this is not an attack on your view, only a comment on how I, as one that doesn't believe it's correct, believe that it might have came about.:hmm:

danield
Jan 18th 2008, 08:57 PM
Ok, I'll talk about it for a short...

Interesting application of scripture as it may apply to the US but this last part is a bit "skinny."

It alludes to the idea that prophecy could have never been fulfilled, Christ could have never come back and Armageddon never happen until after the area of Alaska was brought into the states as a member state when this figurative version of "Babylon" being a conglomeration of states didn't even exist until the past few hundred years.

Until this happened, could have the native inhabitants of this land fit the description of this "Babylon" in Revelations? No, so that kind of puts away our version of 7 hills on our continent being the 7 hills of prophecy from the beginning because of imminency. What we need to look for is these 7 hills that have been there all along through history in various places that could have easily hosted whatever nation existed on those 7 hills as being capable of being this "Babylon."

Christ related imminence even before and books of the NT (that contained similar statements) were written and even before John penned the Revelation. So based on that fact alone, OT prophecy could have come to pass before our perception of all the "pieces fell together" thousands of years later or there was no imminence (Jesus, the NT and John wasn't telling the truth in the warnings?) and it it was impossible for prophecy to come to pass until thousands of years of diabolical plotting and planning by invisible Satanic interests.

We can't have it both ways.

Either there always existed imminency or there did not.

To err on the side of caution, we should accept that prophecy could have been fulfilled, Christ could have come back and Armageddon could have happened from the moment Christ spoke of such imminency AND examine in detail all these details that have existed all along such as these requiements and details were in place as soon as Jesus spoke of imminence.

These "details and requirements" for prophecy, I speculate, have been in existence since the moment Jesus spoke of imminency. In other words, the necessary social, religious, governmental, financial and political platforms have always been intact and present in some form or another so that imminency may be real, but, the invisible/Satanic efforts have been thwarted all and could easily be thwarted several thousand more years.

In that advent, imminency in itself would show that the mark of the beast and a one world government and a one world economy and one world religion obviously would not have been global.

Given all that, it is bits and pieces of these two scenarios, fulfilled/not fulfilled, pre-trib/no pre-trib, is where the different denominations come from on the issue of prophetical doctrine but thats a deeper subject matter than is at hand since I think both are correct but only in part but if you put the both together you get meat BECAUSE IT ALL COULD HAVE COME TO PASS ALL ALONG.

Napsnsnacks, I have a fairly long post written in response to your post, but after reading my response and your post again I really wish you could clarify where you get your reasoning of imminence of Christ’s return or how it could have happened generations ago or even before Christ came the first time. I just do not understand how that could be reasoned especially after reading Matthew 24 and 25. The only verse I can see this in is Matthew 25:13 So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return. But we can not cherry pick one scripture from an entire chapter and draw conclusions of imminence for every generation. But if you did this scripture could hold true in the fact that everyone is to die and you don't know when you are to die which would put you at the throne of Christ. So you indeed have to be ready. However I am just guessing at how you arrived at your understanding of imminence. Forgive me for being slow!!!

danield
Jan 18th 2008, 11:30 PM
Daniel, one of the reasons I started this thread is because it seemed to me a bit strange, that the US being as large and influential as it has become in the last two centuries, to the point that it is generally acknowledged as the chief superpower among the superpowers of the world, was somehow not even mentioned in scripture or rather "Bible prophesy".

It seems to me that the reason for this is that it pleased God to not detract from the general purpose of the main story of scripture, which is how He relates to humanity in general through his relation to His chosen "focus point" of the land of Israel and it's surrounding neighbors.

But even then I would think that because of our understanding of that fact, and our historical acknowledgment of that fact by our policy to be a friend to, supporter of, and in times even defender of, the newly restored Israel; that God would honor us with at least "an honorable mention" of some sort, even if not named directly, and I had high hopes that someone would have been illuminated by The Spirit as to where that obscure reference might be found.

However I find it fascinating that to so many, the USA is such an evil and terrible force of oppression and a symbol of everything that's wrong with the world today, that they can only see it as a worthy recipient of God's wrath, and only references to it's evil nature and it's due punishment are worthy of mention in scripture.

I know it is true that The USA deserves in many ways the "bad reputation" that it has been creating for itself, because of it's departure from the Biblical Judeo-Christian values it was founded upon originally, specially over the past 50 years or so. But even with all that there's still a lot of good things about the US that should be acknowledged as well, specially by those nations we have helped with our resources and political support, to allow them to prosper and in some cases even reach their own Independence, and even though they may have a tendency to forget all that and turn their backs on us, I don't think God would be one to also forget how we also have mightily been used by Him, to bring the gospel to much of the world by undertaking His great commission.

My point is that I don't see the USA as "Babylon the Great", I think the traditional view of most evangelical Bible Scholars as "The Roman Catholic Church" being the most probable recipient of that undistinguished honor is correct. To say that the USA is worthy of that title based solely on the indiscretions and misguided actions and intentions of it's mostly secular leaders of recent years up to today, is a bit exaggerated and not a very wise interpretation of the scriptures. :2cents:

You know I really hate to write things that cast a bad shadow on the country I live in. There are so many good things that come out of the USA that it makes it a really wonderful place to live. In fact we have brought so much good to the world that it is really hard to understand how we could have deteriorated to the level of being thought of as one of the “bad guys” of the bible. And this is not a left wing conspiracy theory that thinks that everything that is bad in the world is America’s fault. I assure you it is not. But I can only look at face value how things exist in the world and how I feel things are headed. And reality is that even with the good things we have done, America does not hold true to Gods commandments at all. In fact, even though we were built on Judeo Christian values, our country today gives more credence to the non-believer rights than to the believer. Our country jumps all over itself to give way to the right to worship any God. Look at what Mr Ried did in the Senate last summer. He allowed a Hindu person to open the senate with a prayer. Also, it was just about 15 years ago that we allowed the Senate to open up with a prayer to Mohammad. These were 2 first time events for our country. Now how do you think God looks down at us about this? I know a lot of people think we can do anything to God and it carries no bearing to our lives. I can not say how much I disagree. I think we have become so complacent about respecting other religious beliefs that is has compromised the very foundation of our country. Do I need to show everyone the immorality that our country allows to happen in the name of freedom? I just deleted several paragraphs of how immoral our country has become in respect of the members of this board. If you can’t see it, just turn on the news.
Also note this passage is Revelation 18:13 NLT She also bought cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots, and bodies—that is, human slaves.
KJV and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
Both versions say Bodies of men which are slaves. America has played a big part in slave trading in it’s past. I am pretty sure the Catholic Church has been opposed against slavery. And the souls of men could easily be thought of as the many other religions we have in America.
I know there are some people who hold that the Catholic Church is Babylon the Great, but think about it. The Catholic Church in my community has a hard time filling mass on Sundays. How are they going to influence the world on a biblical scale when they can’t even get enough people to go to lunch some days? I think the assault on the Catholic Church was just a ploy to garner new followers for a different church. I am not saying that the Catholic Church is not with out sin because they do have sin in their Ministry, and I feel that they are mentioned in Revelation, but not as Babylon the Great. By the way I am not Catholic. The Pope is indeed the leader of a world wide organized movement for Christ, but he has no real power in any government and is not likely to do so in the next 1000 years. There are no ICBM’s at the Vatican. They do not trade on a world wide scale to make other countries very rich. The Vatican does not rule the countries where she has a presence. Even though some priests have been caught in a very immoral position with the child abuse, it does not mean the entire papacy is ruled by such. There are more child abusers in some counties on the USA than the entire Catholic Church. I think Revelation is written to reflect the true powers of the world. And when Christ talked about- Matthew 24:22 in fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.- That he was not taking about a minor event, but instead of something very major manipulated by the leaders of the world. And I do not see how the authority of Rome could dictate the level of destruction that we will face during those times. Even if the next Pope was say Dr Evil. (hehe) He could not achieve the level influence that Babylon the Great has in Revelation nor does it have the trading influence that it talks about. And finally remeber Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. This is indeed the good we see in America. So "Babylon the Great" was not all bad as shown in the Bible. But we are definatly not a God fearing country anymore. We fear the ACLU more than we fear God, and everybody knows this is true.

DanDMan64
Jan 19th 2008, 12:47 AM
Daniel, thanks for your contributions to the thread, it is quite obvious you're a great American and love this country a whole lot, despite it's shortcomings as a nation that is drawing further away from God as it tends to let "Political correctness" be it's guide instead of The Bible.

As to why I believe "The Catholic Church" is "Mystery, Babylon The Great" of Revelation, and not the United States of America. As I mentioned it's because it is the view most respected Evangelical Bible Scholars who have studied and researched the matter, and have concluded that this is so. Pastor Chuck Smith in particular, from Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, comes to mind as an excellent source for books and bible study materials on "Babylon The Great" and the book of Revelation in general.

It is through research into the historical background of the Roman Catholic Church, that we find there are many aspects of the pagan religious worship and rituals and beliefs of the ancient Babylonian Empire that were adapted by the early leaders of the Catholic Church and incorporated into their cannon and by-laws, though perhaps with the best of intentions, but with the end result of substituting the sound teachings of Jesus Christ and his disciples and apostles and the practices of the early Christian church, through an unholy mixture of the truth with the pagan. For example, the dates of major Christian holidays were changed to match with the dates of pagan Babylonian holidays to make it easy for the populous to remember when to celebrate, Christmas for example on December 25th.

The worship of Mary, the mother of Christ, can also be traced back to a Babylonian Goddess who was also believed to have conceived as a virgin, who was also pictured in many Babylonian paintings as a woman with a child in her lap. Though I can't at the moment give you any details, I know that there are many other "parallels" between the religious practices and beliefs of ancient Babylon and the Roman Catholic Church.

On your last point it seems to me you're a bit confused about what the passage really means. Here's your quote: "
Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. This is indeed the good we see in America. So "Babylon the Great" was not all bad as shown in the Bible. This passage is not saying that her being "drunk" with the blood of God's holy people was a good thing, it is actually a description of how cruel and vile the "harlot, Babylon the Great" was, that she filled her cup and was drunk from drinking the blood of the saints, as in a movie about "Vampires" drinking the blood of their victims whom they killed in the process.

This brings to mind the dark ages and the "Holy Inquisition" era, when the Catholic Church was determined to stamp-out true Christians and Jews, who were considered "heretics" worthy of death for daring to stand against their pagan doctrines and misguided teachings, and in doing so spilled the blood of many true saints. :cry:

If you want I can research several sites on the subject, not only evangelical but even simple historical sites will point to the fact that what I'm telling you is true, that the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" is not as Holy as they would like to have us believe they are, and that their claim of being "Christian" as we understand Christianity to be, is only a mask that hides the true face of "Babylonian paganism" they truly stand for. :o

danield
Jan 19th 2008, 02:48 AM
First of all let me say thank you for recognizing that I do love my country. It is just that I love the Lord much more. As far as Rev 17:6 I could see that she was drunk—drunk with the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus. I stared at her in complete amazement.


This passage is not saying that her being "drunk" with the blood of God's holy people was a good thing, it is actually a description of how cruel and vile the "harlot, Babylon the Great" was, that she filled her cup and was drunk from drinking the blood of the saints, as in a movie about "Vampires" drinking the blood of their victims whom they killed in the process.
This brings to mind the dark ages and the "Holy Inquisition" era, when the Catholic Church was determined to stamp-out true Christians and Jews, who were considered "heretics" worthy of death for daring to stand against their pagan doctrines and misguided teachings, and in doing so spilled the blood of many true saints.
I believe the term “Drunk” in this passage is in reference to the state of mind the people are in during the end times. I believe that this Babylon is going to think that it has every right to do what it does because of its background with the witnesses for Jesus. Let me put it another way, I think “this Babylon” is going to do many of the bad things as mentioned in Revelation and she is going feel that she has the right to do so because she had the blood of God’s holy people who were witnesses for Jesus on her side or in her history. I do not think this verse represents the destruction of God’s holy people as you have stated, but rather a more holier than tho attitude with the rest of the world.
I do not think it is about the vileness that caught the attention of John because certainly he had seen the death of many Christians at the hands of the Romans.
I stared at her in complete amazement. I think it is about how he is in complete amazement about why anyone would do the things “this Babylon” could do in the name of God’s holy people and be so bad. I know this can be somewhat similar to the Holy Inquisition era, but look at the time that the Holy Inquisition occurred in. So many other things did not come to pass in that peorid as stated clearly in Revelation. And again let me emphasize that I do not think it is about Babylon killing it own holy people but rather doing bad things in the name of God’s holy people.
Also I have seen so many studies about how the Catholic Church is the great Babylon and I so disagree with them on many levels. Again let me say that people have done a thorough research on the many sins on the Catholic Church, but every single man, woman, and child has sinned but one. And that goes especially to the Catholic Church. They may have not set up the most perfect way to love and worship the lord but it does not mean that they are evil. They still hold true some fundamental core beliefs that make them a true Christian organization much more than the USA. But even if you do not believe that they are a decent Christian organization, which I do and appreciate all that many have done to help further the cause of Christ, take them out of the picture of the world scene. How would that cause anything to change on a world scale? It changes nothing. There would be no mourning by ship captains trying to trade with them. They would not be held off shore waiting to deliver their goods. How is Rome’s fall going to cause this entire outcry? I mean this is not even all of Rome but a few square miles within Rome’s boarder. I just think that the events in Revelation describe problems on a much grander scale than what could occur from the fall of the Catholic Church.

avidtrober
Jan 19th 2008, 04:29 AM
I am familiar with this position..or one similar to it


:bounce:....looks like we have yet another extreme proposition to throw into the hat..we may be "Babylon" or we may be Manasseh..and the House of Israel..:lol:


that analysis actually came out of 19th century literature, Armstrong et. al. revived it this century. And, though WCG was legalistic, it definitely made some valid Biblical points mainstream Christianity does not profess.

The House of Israel was prophesied to lose its identity, to be filtered through the nations, and then be rejoined by Christ Himself at the Second Coming (or very shortly thereafter).

In the meantime, the Abrahamic covenants concerning the *birthright* did not go to Judah, but to Joseph, then to his twin sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Unless God let down on His Word, which I doubt anyone would agree, immense prosperity and wealth was guarantee through the birthright. And, it's a "background thread" all through scripture.

Although legalistic churches have picked up on this theme, it is not something to be lightly brushed aside. There are LOTS of detailed texts on it, and they are interesting reading. Be warned: *traditional* beliefs are very, very common in mainstream church.

It is also non-essential-for-salvation. But, still, good study if you like that kind of thing (I guess some of you do, you're in this thread! :-)

avidtrober
Jan 19th 2008, 05:50 AM
I have never been able to find any kings of the west in scripture or a reference to the US.

In prophecy we have the kings of the north, east and south as major players but no west.

...

Due to the lack of the kings of the west, anything making the US part of prophecy is a theory.

...



Much of prophecy is given in *family* names. These families grow into nations, and biblical prophets speak of them as nations. You'll find Israel (who is not the political state of Israel today, the State of Israel today is the Jews, aka Judah), Ephraim, Manasseh, Jacob, etc. all names mentioned even in eschatalogical/end-times contexts.

avidtrober
Jan 19th 2008, 06:07 AM
As to the US being intact, I don't see why not, after all God did promise to bless them that bless Israel.. ;)

But, "Israel" is not the political state of Israel today. The equivalent of the political state of Israel today would be the House of Judah or Judah in prophecy. Today's political state is *Jewish*.

avidtrober
Jan 19th 2008, 06:28 AM
This is a good discussion. Considering NY/Manhatten as Babylon the Great still have me thinking, because I always had a problem fitting Rome and the Catholic Church into the very phrase someone else posted, about all the merchants of the seas bemoaning her, and the fact the city was a great trading city. Rome is not known as a commerce hub, but perhaps that could change.

As for the horns like a lamb on the second beast, very interesting.

Can I throw a couple of points in? Not saying "this IS it", rather just suggestions, to hear some replies.

Joseph inherited the birthright, c.f. Gen 49:22-26. Ephraim and Manasseh inherited it, and it was doubled where each got a full portion. The birthright *split* from the House of Judah, it went with the House of Israel into captivity.

Now, I know there's literature that says all of the House of Israel eventually returned to the Middle East. But, that is not what was prophesied to happen. Rather, the House of Israel would lose its identity, until the Christ rejoined it Himself to the House of Judah as a single nation again. Today's Jews have no history of that happening. And, they are exactly that, Jews. The House of Israel was *not* Jewish. Yet, mainstream terminology and thought toward the OT, Old Covenant is that it is "Jewish traditions". anyway...

This birthright would certainly fit in with a very large commerce-centric city such as NY and the U.S. , a very wealthy powerful nation.

Interestingly, God told Abraham "a nation and a company of nations" I will make of you. Not saying this is it, but Israel is definitely recognized today as having its roots in Abraham. The 'company of nations' would be the House of Israel, they're all that's remaining as possibilities (since Ishmael's descendents are explicitly referenced apart from this).

The names Joseph, Ephraim, Manasseh, House of Israel, etc. are all used in end-times prophecies. Birthright + end-times context of birthright names + the fact they don't know who they are, but do have Judeo-Christian roots (two horns like a lamb seems possible per earlier post) + large commercial/wealthy focus in end-times prophesy.

Lastly, I find it more plausible than not, that the Abrahamic promises just faded out of history with no record and/or God has not been with those descendants throughout history since the time of Abraham, at least to the point of fulfilling his promises to Abraham.

Clearly, the most significant Abrahamic covenant was the Messiah would come from his descendants. But, there were very significant covenants given to Abraham that were non-Messiah, namely, the birthright and all its detailed promised (not just material wealth and prosperity, but dominion, even militarily, on the earth "shall own the gates of your enemies", "a hundred shall chase a thousand", etc.).

anyway...just chatting...there's a lot of good stuff I am going to chew on in previous posts in the meantime. :-)

napsnsnacks
Jan 19th 2008, 09:59 AM
I agree, in fact I believe it is a misguided and somewhat irrational interpretation of that principle, that has caused some to believe that "imminency" and "immediacy" are the same thing, so therefore because the rapture and the other end times events surrounding it were expressed by our Lord and other prophets and apostles with that ring of "immanency", it must have meant that it could only take place during that first century church period.

If you guessed I'm referring to those who hold to the "Preterist" or "full-Preterist" view, you guessed right. But please don't get me started on that discussion, I'm only bringing it-up because I just got done refuting that view on another thread about that, as best I could.:B

Please, if there are any who hold to that view reading this and are ready to comment on why it is right and I am wrong, pretty please with sugar on top, DON'T derail this thread, since obviously if you believe all prophesy has been fulfilled already then there's very little you can contribute here about the role of the USA on that since it didn't even exist as a nation by 70AD. As the OP I'd rather keep this a "Futurists" only discussion.:)

Also note this is not an attack on your view, only a comment on how I, as one that doesn't believe it's correct, believe that it might have came about.:hmm:

This brings up other tangible issues that grind against the status quo of our understanding of the end times.

If one was forced here and now to make a decision based on the past existence of our nation, current events and all the facts at hand to choose one of the following to be the most palatable:

#1 The US is this two winged nation of prophecy that harbors the Jews for 7 years and then may or may not collapse...

or...

#2 The US is antichrists platform, the US president is or will be one or the other of the satanic trinity and the US dollar will become the one world global currency... (technically, up to a certain point, that had possibilities but then again so did Rome and Hitler, et al, all of whom have failed)

We would have no choice but to take door number one for a variety of reasons:

As applies to #1...

The US, after the tribes of Israel being scattered to the 4 winds of the earth, has been the Jews home way from home because they have never been persecuted here, mass murdered or non-violently told to pack their bags and get out as has happened in some form or another in every nation that has ever hosted their presence in society. Even aside from the mass majority unrepentance of these same Jews has always been supported by our Constitutional principles of freedom (melting pot) and the unwavering backing of the Christian church.

Plus the US was instrumental in carving the physical nation of Israel out of the sand in the mid east, providing endless supply of weapons and astronomical amounts of money to maintain that presence.

As it applies to #2...

This is where it all falls apart and our assumptions makes antichrist look like a F student who received an honorary diploma and gratuitous employment references.

First you gotta put yourself in antichrists shoes and scheme a method of concocting a one world government/currency/religion and do so directly in the face of all the other collective governments, currencies and religions (and their respective war machines) with more than a few of those separate 3 things being major super players on the global scene, each having having in its own hand the power to destroy the planet, who each have their own individual and unwavering plans for their governments/currency and religions (or lack of religion thereof) to be the all global dealers because as it turns out in historical human government, this is what major/super powers are all about old and new and that is spreading its ideology and influence as far and wide as possible.

As antichrist and being personally unknown to the world for millennia, just how would you overthrow all that in favor of your agenda? Mind boggling isn't it? Yet we are so proud an arrogant to think we, like all of our predecessors, have it all figured out.

As you can see, the things that we and the church in general have always laid at antichrists doorstep no doubt makes us feel better but really is just an insult to antichrists intelligence.

The fact is, there is no current existing government, or currency, or religion that has a big enough base of operations that could subdue the masses of our planet to itself, much less accomplish ALL THREE ITEMS of government, currency or religion at the same time. Any attempt at this could only result in a nuclear world war three.

Antichrist will inevitably be antisemitic. If our government was antisemitic the Jews would not be where they are today in our country as far as the money in the private sector and political influence goes so that shuts out our gov as being the one world government.

Antichrist inevitably would want a solid financial foundation, have a balanced budget and be liquid. Our money was on the silver standard, then on the gold standard, then on no standard at all with nothing valuable hoarded in a vault to support that value....but there is or was something of value that the value of the US dollar was transferred to but yet is not under our control or possession and that is crude oil, underground and in foreign countries.

The global power and wealth of the US dollar is crude oil because the world over crude is sold on the US dollar as a rule.

As decades of this pass by our money and influence spreads like wildfire making the US the incontestable superpower.

As these same decades pass, our elected officials pork out most of the money in the treasury to their cronies and contacts in the private and corporate sector thus draining our liquidity and creating a demand for money inside of our own government so great that it is too late in the ball game to make up for that in taxes and fees upon the people.

So what happened? The internal financial structure was pulled out of the platform.

Up until that point, Jews or no Jews, church or no church, antichrist could have easily used the US as a platform but, either to be attributed to God or man, that was upended.

We start borrowing money from other countries (including brazenly robbing the Social Security trust fund) to compensate for lack of interior and exterior operating costs, money we can't even pay the interest on in hundreds of years let alone pay down the capital.

The inspiration of these actions was spurred on by crude oil being the base of financial power for the US because this standard causes US cash to flow across the planet to the point that entire nations are founded on it and depend on it for their very existence. (that was the plan anyway)

These same people who did this to our country as we were taken off the gold standard never suspected that another currency would come along to really compete with the dollar such as Europe uniting and fabricating a currency for that union that would quickly surpass the US dollar in value and demand and the same goes for China. They never suspected that China and the Yuan would become the giant it is and a global player.

All our elected leaders were concerned about for decades was short term greed and cronyism. All of them were politicians, none of them were statesman.

As far as our leaders were concerned, we and Japan would jointly own the world through the US dollar based on crude oil with the Yen riding shotgun.

Their plan was to crash all economies of the world just like we broke and collapsed Russia during the Cold War.

They never suspected that one or more nations would ever propose (much less actually do it) to start buying and selling crude oil at a currency other than the US dollar.

One nation dared implement a plan to sell oil on the Euro$ and that was Saddam in Iraq. Almost to the day of this planned implementation, Iraq was invaded and wasted. Iraq was not able to implement the selling of its oil on the Euro$. Like it or not, that end result was part and parcel of the war to specifically prevent Iraq from doing this. Now, as long as the US is in Iraq or has control of it, Iraqi oil will never sell on the Euro$. So far every official reason and justification for the invasion of Iraq has been proven false except for the premise of preventing Iraqi selling oil on the Euro$.

Now the war drums beat against Iran who also has these same intentions of buying and selling oil on the Euro$. Suffice it to say, If Iran does not abandon this plan, Iran will also be invaded so that the end result would be part and parcel of the war to specifically prevent Iran from doing this. As before, every reason and justification for the invasion of Iran will just be a premise.

When crude oil goes off the US dollar, we collapse totally. No more superpower. No more global influence or power. We will just become like the other nations who have a lot of people and a lot of nukes. This power and influence is then transferred to the Euro$ or the Yuan who would then subsequently end up in competition with each other to see who will be top global currency so as you can see, antichrists drive for a one world currency is no where near over because in the end the battle will be between the Euro$ and the Yuan. There is no telling how many years or decades that could take.

Meanwhile, a "rapture" could occur at anytime for those who hold to the idea of a rapture.

Antichrist could easily have nothing personal do with any of this except to wait until the nations battle it out until there is a one global currency under one nation and one military then he will penetrate and subvert the end winner and then subsequently by official mandate add to those two (government and a currency) a religion after he has gained total control.

Then it hits the fan.

All the while he didn't have to labor one iota in bringing it to pass. It would not be above antichrist or the Devil to leave man alone to ignorantly go about his dirty work for him. All he really needs do is have patience and wait for one global winner, then move in for the kill. Possibly being that final leader himself (if he has been here physically all along kind of like an "immortal" in Highlander, no pun intended) or being here all along in spirit then supernaturally possessing that leader. Jesus said he works among us already so it could go either way though I think this end times leader will be possessed.

Plus, not only the oil going off the US dollar, if other countries, our creditors, start selling off our notes in exchange for the Euro$, they can collapse us in an hour.

So between oil going off the dollar to the Euro$ and the selling off of our notes for the Euro$, China and O.P.E.C are the two entities who hold in the palm of their hand any whim of allowing us to remain a nation or to send us into third world oblivion.

Iraq firstly (they have already paid dearly for this) and Iran secondly (who is going to take it in the teeth later) picked up the ball to collapse the US by selling their oil on the Euro$.

So we have no real money for operating costs since taxes and fees from the people doesn't even scratch the surface of the interest of the money we borrow and we are borrowing so much, our money because of that, has really become nothing but a piece of paper with nothing backing it up in value except the crude oil in the ground of foreign countries plus we are rapidly losing favorable mention among the nations at an astounding rate because our current two wars going on and the fallout thereof.

Now, given all of that, and pretending that you were antichrist invisibly bent on a one world government/currency, would the US be your base of operations? As part of your agenda would you have created this type if financial situation for your self? A situation that could be collapsed in one hour (Babylon falls in one hour) by a third party?

No you would not. That's what shuts out the US presidency or our government being the antichrist.

Saying that it is would be insulting antichrists intelligence because in laying such a platform for himself, he would be incompetent, just like decades of our elected officials who did not possess or who did not care about foresight.

We simply cannot sustain ourselves from the inside, we cannot control big foreign oil, we cannot invade and war with every oil producing nation to prevent the oil from converting to the Euro$, and attempting to do so destroys us in the process because we can't maintain such action due to lack of material and financial resources against the oil producing nations of the whole world and especially without a mass draft of manpower into the military.

We are in a situation where we are doomed as a nation if we do and doomed if we don't and antichrist would not create for himself such a cracker box castle.

If you were antichrist letting the nations fight it out among themselves so you could subvert the overall winner, wouldn't it would only be prudent on your schedule to hasten the demise of the US wouldn't it? Sure it would so wouldn't you be one of or be part of O.P.E.C. switching oil to the Euro$ or China gobbling up US notes like candy thus providing endless billions of dollars that can never be paid back for the express purpose of gaining the ability to completely wreck a fellow super power?

Sure you (he) would.

The antichrist by nature being antisemitic could only have it on his agenda to collapse the US because in that he would also collapse Israel because if there is no US or the US dollar has been globally replaced by the Euro$ or the Yuan that means no more financial or material support for Israel unless the US made such a radical move as to abandon its own money and switch to the Euro$ or Yuan (at some point in time in the future, in order to survive or to rebuild, the US will HAVE to adopt the Euro$ or Yuan or remain in third world oblivion).

Facing the desperate situation of no more Israel and Israels enemies fastly approaching her border, could possibly mean mass evacuations from Israel to the US thus the US possibly could be this two feathered nation of prophecy that shelters Jews for 7 years. Dread the slaughter of those who did not get out in time. Toss in some nukes too because Israel will have no reservations about using them in that situation.

That scenario might also void a pre-trib rapture because once the Christians are gone who in the US would support such a thing concerning Israel and with the Christians gone out of government who would be predisposed to politically offer such a thing to Israel?

In order for the US to be this two winged nation of prophecy, it inevitably would require the presence in our nation of Christians in both society and in government for it to happen during the course of this 7 years.

DanDMan64
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:32 PM
All good points, napsnsnacks. I also agree that it is the European Union that will provide the stage from which the AC will eventually be revealed and from which his "empire" will rise.

I also believe it is the euro that will be the currency that will dominate the financial scene of that time as in fact it's on the move even today overtaking the dollar in value and importance.

Even-though it is sad to see the US slowly loose it's grip on the world scene as a "Super Power" so that it's influence on the world will be reduced to such a negligible level of importance that it has such a small and obscure a place in Bible prophesy, that it prompted me to start this thread to see where that place might be; It is important that we keep track of these events as they unfold, so that through a process of elimination we can begin to rule-out possible AC candidates, and possible Beasts and possible Babylons so that eventually we will begin to understand where the US will finally come-out in the prophecies of scripture, and so we can better prepare for our eventual role as "the people" of this great nation.

One thing is clear though, that regardless of how "patriotic" we might feel to want to defend our country and side with it's values and principles to the bitter end, our number one duty is with our Lord and our God, and our number one priority is to declare our allegiance to His Kingdom, His values and His principles as revealed to us in His word, and that those immortal words of "IN GOD WE TRUST" will for ever ring true in our hearts regardless of how meaningless it might sound to those around us, as the currency that bears that truth slowly looses it's value, as we begin to see the lines get drawn in the sands of time and we are asked which side to take, may we be bold enough to proudly side with The King of Kings, and The Lord of Lords, no matter what the cost. :amen:

DanDMan64
Jan 22nd 2008, 06:52 PM
But, "Israel" is not the political state of Israel today. The equivalent of the political state of Israel today would be the House of Judah or Judah in prophecy. Today's political state is *Jewish*.I agree, but hard as it may be for us to keep track of which "Israel" is which and where the real "spiritual" Israel that God still loves and cares a great deal about, might actually be physically on this planet, the point is that The general area of Palestine which we know historically as "Israel" is still the main focus point of the Bible, or more specifically Bible prophesy, and since we know that God is faithful to His promises, it is in our own best interest to heed the request of the psalmist and be counted as beneficiaries of the promise, when he declares in Psalm 122:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=122&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.";)

brakelite
Jan 23rd 2008, 06:48 AM
In the book of Rev c22:12 we read: And behold I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
A determination must have been made prior to His coming in order that the judgement/reward be just. This is while Jesus is still in heaven. The previous verse is the announcement of the close of the door so to speak. v11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
This pronouncement is made before Jesus returns.

As to the ministry in the sanctuary, the High Priest's mediation in the sanctuary culminated with the day of atonement. For the people of Israel this was a time of deep soul searching- a time of judgement. Anyone with unconfessed sin was cut off from the house of Israel. The sins of Israel which had been transferred to the sanctuary throughout the previous year were cleansed by the blood of the alloted goat and transferred to the scape goat wher it was led into the wilderness to die. Thus the new year was a fresh start for Israel. The peolpe were clean, the sanctuary was clean.
The heavenly sanctuary wil be also cleansed before Jesus comes. This is His final act before He comes. Once He leaves the sanctuary there is no more opportunity for repentance because His ministry in the temple is finished. The sanctuary is clean, no more sins will be deposited there. They are transferred to the scape-goat: a type of satan.

And no, I am not inferring that the tribulation will last 7 years.

Regards
Brakelite

DanDMan64
Jan 23rd 2008, 05:16 PM
In the book of Rev c22:12 we read: And behold I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
A determination must have been made prior to His coming in order that the judgement/reward be just. This is while Jesus is still in heaven. The previous verse is the announcement of the close of the door so to speak. v11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
This pronouncement is made before Jesus returns.

As to the ministry in the sanctuary, the High Priest's mediation in the sanctuary culminated with the day of atonement. For the people of Israel this was a time of deep soul searching- a time of judgement. Anyone with unconfessed sin was cut off from the house of Israel. The sins of Israel which had been transferred to the sanctuary throughout the previous year were cleansed by the blood of the alloted goat and transferred to the scape goat wher it was led into the wilderness to die. Thus the new year was a fresh start for Israel. The peolpe were clean, the sanctuary was clean.
The heavenly sanctuary wil be also cleansed before Jesus comes. This is His final act before He comes. Once He leaves the sanctuary there is no more opportunity for repentance because His ministry in the temple is finished. The sanctuary is clean, no more sins will be deposited there. They are transferred to the scape-goat: a type of satan.

And no, I am not inferring that the tribulation will last 7 years.

Regards
BrakeliteHey brakelite, I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh before, but I just felt the need to address your comments even though they are a bit "off-topic", because it seems to me they are a bit skewed.

Now I see that you want to turn this into a debate, since now you're resorting to quote scripture in an effort to prove your point, and thus correct me on a point that you are sure about, and that you believe it is my views on the subject that's "skewed".

Even though I believe I could very easily quote scripture to prove my point quite clearly, I'd rather not get into that game. In fact I would say that when it comes to some doctrinal points which can be interpreted different ways, but that are not essential for one's salvation, it is best to let each one be convinced in his/her own mind as to what's right and what's "skewed", and just have faith that once we reach perfection and are made aware of His perfect will and everlasting plan, then all things will become clear and we'll clearly see whether our beliefs were either right-on, or a bit off the mark.

To quote your own scripture:
"... v11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. I bring that-up to make this point, "let brakelite who believes there's no more hope for the unrighteous during the tribulation, believe that view still, and let DanDman who believes there is hope, believe that view still, but let both brakelite and DanDman work together as brethren to save many for Christ "today", as they both believe Jesus Saves, so let them agree on that still."

Now let's get :OFFT: and let me know where you believe in scripture we can find a reference to the role of the USA in prophesy today?:hmm:

brakelite
Jan 24th 2008, 08:15 PM
Yep, off topic alright, not sure anymore how we got there but that's the way conversation goes sometimes huh.You are right, although it is not a specific salvation doctrine, I do believe it can have dangerous effects on our hope of salvation if we accept views that tend to lead us to put off 'getting right' with the Lord. Our preparation ought to be today, now, rather than even subconciously saying to ourselves, "such and such hasn't happened yet so I've got plenty of time to prepare". My attitude is if there is biblical evidence that our preparation ought to be more urgent, more soul searching, more diligent, more intense than our senses would otherwise dictate, then we go with the bible. Quite frankly, I dont think any of us has a clue of what we are to endure in the coming days. The words of the loud voice from heaven ought to be a sobering warning for all :
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time....And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 12:12,17.

Which leads me to the US in prophecy.
It is very difficult to find the US in prophecy if your eschatology is futurist. It is impossible if you are preterist. If however one sees the entire history of God's people detailed in prophecy right from the time of Daniel to this present day, the historicist view, then the US becomes quite clear.
In Rev12 we are given an overview of the church from the time of Christ to the final stage of the church immediatly before the second coming. The woman is the church. The child is Jesus. The dragon is the devil, and in an other sense, Rome. The 1260 days of persecution are the 1260 years of persecution of God's people under the papal system. This came to a close at the end of the dark ages in the late 18th century. The earth which helped the woman is the US. The US came to power in the early 19th century and became a haven for the persecuted of Europe.
Then in Rev 13 we are given the same period of time but with more detail. The composite beast is the papacy. Again we are given the same time period, 1260 days/years. This ended when the pope was captured by Gen. Berthier of France and taken into exile.(1798). All commentators of the day thought the Roman church was finished. (the mortal head wound). Meanwhile another beast rises up out of the earth (remember12:16? and compare with the sea of Rev13:1 and 17:15). At first harmless as a lamb, but later speaks as a dragon. The first beast's wound heals ( the Roman church revives [and who can deny that today] after Mussolini in 1929 gives back the Vatican)
and there begins a relationship between the two beasts culminating in the second beast enforcing the mark of the first. Since Reagan, the relationship between the US and the Vatican has grown in leaps and bounds. The politics and religious changes within the US markedly fulfil the picture of Rev 12 and 13 perfectly.
And what other nation today has the power and prestige and influence to enforce a global religious duty to the point of death?

Regards
Brakelite

DanDMan64
Jan 24th 2008, 11:04 PM
...The politics and religious changes within the US markedly fulfill the picture of Rev 12 and 13 perfectly.
And what other nation today has the power and prestige and influence to enforce a global religious duty to the point of death?...
OK, so we have yet another notch for "the USA is the second beast of Rev 13."

I'm not quite sure the "Pope" quite fits the bill for an AC type leader, but I can't rule that-out completely. The thing is it all depends on whether you believe 1260 days should be interpreted as 1260 years or 3 and 1/2 years. it also depends on whether you believe "The Vatican" being out for a while and then back again, is the same as the beast being almost killed and then miraculously revived again, that seems a bit far fetched to me.

But what do I know, quite frankly I don't care too much about trying to figure-out who the AC is, though I don't buy the view that he was Nero Caesar of the first century. I believe however it's quite obvious that the USA we live in today is moving more and more tor-wards helping prepare the way for the AC, and thusly the possibility that it could be either the home-of, or in an organizational sense itself be, the second beast.

I base that assumption on the following points.

1. The move to remove the God of the Bible from everything, making us a completely secular nation.

2. The move to replace God with a philosophy of a united human race, which can be it's own guide in deciding what's good and what's bad, because we are all god's.
(Google-up Oprah and "miracles" and XM Radio and see what I mean.)

3. The move to unify all Id cards into a national ID system, which can be tracked electronically.

4. The move to steer away from using cash and and checks and using more "convenient" and safer electronic based means of handling monetary transactions.

5. The move to elevate the evolution theory to a higher level of importance by declaring it an actual scientific set of facts.

6. The move to join with other nations to work-out a set of guidelines aimed at achieving the goal of a global economy.

7. The move to make all our allies and enemies alike understand and talk to us in "English" rather than learning their language.

There may be other "moves" I may have missed, but I hope you get the idea, in general there is a "move" to-wards trying to achieve world peace through globalism and humanism, where everyone speaks English, uses the same currency electronically, contributes to a world economy, is educated on the same scientific principles, can be easily identified through a quick scan of some sort, and mainly believes that there is no God and we are all members of "the human family" so we must be good to one another and work-out the evil within us on our own.

Sounds good and all, but it's just not God's way according to His word. My point is the US seems to be leading the way on a lot of these "moves", that's why I can see how it could be looked upon as supporter of the AC when he shows-up to actually act to bring-about all these things and make them possible and real, so the role of "second beast" is quite fitting.:hmm:

danield
Jan 25th 2008, 02:08 AM
One thing that we have to note about the relationship between the harlot and the scarlet beast comes from:


This calls for a mind with understanding: The seven heads of the beast represent the seven hills where the woman rules. They also represent seven kings. Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief.
“The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction. The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast. They will all agree to give him their power and authority. Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him.”
Then the angel said to me, “The waters where the prostitute is ruling represent masses of people of every nation and language. The scarlet beast and his ten horns all hate the prostitute. They will strip her naked, eat her flesh, and burn her remains with fire. For God has put a plan into their minds, a plan that will carry out his purposes. They will agree to give their authority to the scarlet beast, and so the words of God will be fulfilled. And this woman you saw in your vision represents the great city that rules over the kings of the world.”

In these passages it shows that the harlot and the scarlet beast as two separate entities. After a series of 7 normal rulers over the harlot the 8th king is given power over the harlot. I believe through force. Somehow the US falls to this 8th king. Then This 8th king will appoint 10 kings though out the world and they will plunder the prostitute because they hate the prostitute. And God has shown them how to do it by putting a plan into their minds so that his purpose is achieved in the end. So the AC or one of the beasts will rule over the US. But I just do not see how in the world someone can defeat the USA. :B



And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him

Now this line is interesting in that the followers of Christ will find a way to be with him, and will go to Jerusalem to support him.:pp I am buying my ticket early !!

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 09:57 AM
Hello! I am new to this site & this thread. Please bare with me as I learn my way around. Just saw a quote button on the bottom of some posts. I will try this first.

Have read many posts in this thread and am highly interested in end-time prophecy. Hoping to gain a more complete understanding!:)

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 10:54 AM
danield
post #100
said,
"I too see the USA being the Mystery Woman of Babylon. There are several reasons why many of which were listed by some previous posters. But here are a few of my thoughts on the subject.
First of all The mystery Woman is referred to as a city."

Response,
I do feel that the USA is referred to in end-time scripture in many ways. Also, the Woman who rides the Scarlet colored beast is as well associated with the USA. My best understanding of these entities is as follows:

(very brief discription & first post to this thread)
The USA is the seventh head of the wild beast. Also a young nation who will exist for a short time. A nation who goes about destroying the entire inhabited earth. etc. etc.

The woman stands for a great city within this seventh world empire. This city has many criteria.

01. The city is a great city!
02. This city must have a kingdom that rules over the kings of the earth!
03. She is considered to have shameless luxury!
04. She does business with traveling merchants of the world.
05. The kings of the earth commit fornication with her, per say.
06. This city must be on the coast, and have a major seaport.
07. Also, this city is within the seventh head or world kingdom.
08. The woman or city also has a golden cup full of disgusting things
09. She is devastated in one hour of one day!
10. Kings, merchants, and peoples, look at the smoke rising from her.
11. This great city is finally completely distroyed.

Now look at these:

1. The Big Apple
2. The UN resides in NYC in the United States
3. The diamond exchange, the stock markets, the banking centers, etc.
4. The World Trade Center
5. Many of the kings or leader of nations, have a luxurious residence here.
6. The Port Authority, and a major seaport.
7. The seventh world kingdom is the USA.
8. Wall Street, the stock exchange's which are full of disgusting things.
9. NY was devastated in one hour of one day (9-11).
10. Kings, merchants and the rich, looked and mourned over the WTC.
11. Yet to be completed!

Oh! (this may just be ironic but)
Lets not forget, this city also has a woman who stands on the waters, and who overlooks Ellis island where many peoples, and crowds, from various nations and tongues, immigrated to this country.

Please do not get me wrong. I do not think poorly of fellow Christian's living in the USA. I also feel pain in terrible events, but our country is downright EVIL! (ask me why?).

First post! Sorry for ranting on or offending anyone!
I am a Patriot of GOD, not of a nation!

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 11:21 AM
You just do not see how in the world someone can defeat the USA!
__________________________________________________ ________

Well how about this: A group of Islamic terrorists buy a few box cutters at ace hardware, and a few airline tickets on credit cards they will never even pay for, then perpitrate 911. Then the USA wages war with the evil doers spending eventually trillions of dollars, sending the U.S. economy into devastation, damaging our global relations (including with NATO). The result is what your watching in the news now! Real estate declines not seen since the great depression, our dollar losing over 52% vs the euro in one year, and U.S. corporations bailing out of our economy & diversifying into europe! And worse, no end in sight! Sorry! :(

John68
Jan 25th 2008, 02:43 PM
24 (http://bible.cc/revelation/18-24.htm) and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all those who have been slain on the earth.' - I dont see how NY would be responsible for the blood of the prophets and ALL those who have been slain on the earth.

4IMUNURME
Jan 25th 2008, 05:08 PM
John68

Your referring to Rev. 18:24
You are correct in a literal sence, and I do take much of prophecy to be literal. But how could any city in the world have the blood of all those who have been slain on the earth.

Yet I do see that for example Rome could be looked at with regards to the blood of prophets and saints. But remember this is in the end times not in Christs time.

If you can find a city that has more to offer lets hear it and why!

John68
Jan 25th 2008, 05:39 PM
But how could any city in the world have the blood of all those who have been slain on the earth. Good question...I don't know.

DanDMan64
Jan 25th 2008, 07:31 PM
John68

Your referring to Rev. 18:24
You are correct in a literal sence, and I do take much of prophecy to be literal. But how could any city in the world have the blood of all those who have been slain on the earth.

Yet I do see that for example Rome could be looked at with regards to the blood of prophets and saints. But remember this is in the end times not in Christs time.

If you can find a city that has more to offer lets hear it and why!Hello 4IMUNURME, welcome to the Bible Forums and to this thread, your thoughts on the subject are very interesting.

Now as to this last post and to the one with the "list" of items which make you believe the city of New York is "Mystery, Babylon the Great", I can see how you might have arrived at that conclusion, and my goal here is not to try to change any-body's mind about what they believe in regards to prophesy and it's interpretation.

However consider that it is the "belief" of many respected evangelical Bible Scholars and Teachers, that The Rome of Christ's day would in time be revived in Europe and in fact today we see Italy as one of the EU members, and the city of Rome is in Italy, where the Vatican still sits, so that's why we can't rule-out the city of Rome as one of the seven final kingdoms, and as "...the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Rev. 17:8)

These Teachers also believe the "Harlot, Mystery Babylon" is The Roman Catholic Church, headquartered in the Vatican in Rome, from where she rules over many waters "people" all over the world. Also consider that Rev. 17:4-6 describe "The woman" as being a harlot, meaning one who sells herself to make money, which she does by the "selling" of masses, and which is how she came to be arrayed with purple and scarlet (the colors of the Vatican), and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, (treasures of the Vatican). As I said before she's responsible for the blood of many saints, which was done during the dark ages, the inquisition and the crusades, and even today as many evangelical missionaries and their churches are persecuted and killed by "Catholic" soldiers, drug runners and landlords in Latin and Central America, who see them as a threat to their "Catholic" way of life as well as their illicit business ventures, from which the "Catholic" church also benefits by "forgiving" their sins and looking the other way as they take their offerings, which is why her cup is full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications. :cry:

Please don't get me wrong, I don't hate Catholics in general, nor do I condone "Catholic Bashing", but all true believers have to admit that the teachings from the Vatican that make-up their core belief system and theology are just plain "wrong" and do not conform to the truth as taught by the Bible, which is why we separated from them and became "protestants", and which is why we feel the need to witness to them and win them for Christ, or at least as many as believe that just having been born as "Catholics" is enough to win them a place in Heaven, which we all know is not true. :(

danield
Jan 25th 2008, 07:42 PM
Hey 4imunure, we feel the same about many issues but there are a few questions I have when trying to piece together everything. There are a certain set of rules that I hold above all when thinking about revelation. And that is what Christ told us in Matthew 24 and 25. I hold what he said as my anchor when reading John’s vision in revelation. Now Christ told us that we will see all things come to pass in one generation. So this is the biggest reason I can not accept many peoples versions of how the 7 kings are stretched throughout history. It just does not fit at all, and when it does not easily fall into place, I dismiss it totally as being false (not that I am not looking hard to try and believe them) but because I think what is going to happen from revelation will convince people beyond a shadow of a doubt of who is king of kings. I feel with all my heart that this is going to be one of the greatest occurrences of the Bible so nothing can be out of place or it will create doubt.

Now this brings me to the 7 kings. I feel that the 7 kings will rule in succession of each other over the great city. They will not be different kingdoms with the same philosophy, nor will it be different kingdoms throughout 2000 but one kingdom that looks like revelation 17 and all to happen in one generation. And the Angel is showing him how it looks in the sixth king’s reign in the main part in chapter 17. Notice how the
NLT Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief.
Also know how it says that the 7th reign will be brief, and this denotes some sort of tragedy happening. Now if we are in the first through 6th kings we can not see the rest of the 10 kings that are to come by the appointment of the Scarlet beast, the 8th king, because it just has not happened yet. I think this is why the 10 kings are so cloudy but we can guess as to where they may come from because they all do hate the Harlot. Also notice how in
Rev 17:6 that this city is drunk with the blood of the prophets
but in Rev 18:24 it actually says that the blood of was spilled though out the world by this great city. In Rev 18 it is talking about the future beyond the reign of the 7 kings. The harlot is now being controlled by the scarlet beast then. Now think about how many Christians will rise up in revolt against someone we view as the scarlet beast. We are not going to be happy at all. But what gets me is how. How can the scarlet beast rise to power because America is not going to take it laying down with out a fight? There will have to be something more that just flying planes into our financial center. Even if we go broke we will still have our nukes. They could destroy Washington and several cities but we still will have our Navy and our ICBM’s. I just do not understand how. But I know it is not for me to understand. As far as your questions:


01. The city is a great city!
02. This city must have a kingdom that rules over the kings of the earth!
03. She is considered to have shameless luxury!
04. She does business with traveling merchants of the world.
05. The kings of the earth commit fornication with her, per say.
06. This city must be on the coast, and have a major seaport.
07. Also, this city is within the seventh head or world kingdom.
08. The woman or city also has a golden cup full of disgusting things
09. She is devastated in one hour of one day!
10. Kings, merchants, and peoples, look at the smoke rising from her.
11. This great city is finally completely destroyed.

1. America is a democracy just as the City States back in old Greece. John could have easily thought that this is being the best way to describe a group of people by identifying her government. Before America hit the scene monarchs pretty much ruled the world and we changed everything.

2) We do that! Or at least greatly influence the world.

3) There is no question that we fit the bill here!

4) We are the biggest customer this world has ever seen.

5) We have exported our immorality to the world. Other countries have been immoral but they did not export it on a mass scale as we have through Hollywood and our wealth.

6) From sea to shiny sea!

7) I think the seven heads that represent 7 mountains and kings are our mountain ranges and our presidents. Our mountain ranges are The Rocky Mountains, the Appalachian Mountains, the Sierra Nevada, the Cascades, the Brooks Range, the Alaska Range, and finally the Coast Range. I hate to say which presidents are these kings but I do think it should be tied to our involvement with Babylon or better known as Bagdad.

8) Again, our modern nation does not hold true many values of our founders. Many Americans worship God but it most likely is not the Christian God that we all know and love. Also don’t forget that people have the right to trash our God in the name of freedom of speech. I wonder how our Lord looks at this. I could go on and on about the cup full of disgusting things but there really is no need. And again, we export this greed is good way of life to the world.

9) This is an attack that is yet to come. Obviously it is my opinion, but it is the only way I know of for us to relinquish power to the 8th king.

10) There is no question the world will be astonished when something major happens to their best customer. Not to mention America being the world leader.

11) I do not know for sure that Christ will do away with America completely. There are some really good parts to our country and it just seems to reason that he will want that to remain. It may be that he destroys our way of government. However it really does look like Revelation 18 does say that Babylon is destroyed completely. It is not a very pretty picture, but I can just see Abraham talking to the angels and trying to save Sodom that if they can find a few righteous men there they would spare the city, and they said they would. Well I pray that he does find the many righteous men in America and have mercy, but I am not Abraham for sure! I know that there are many righteous men and women here, but the lord may have the rapture planned for us, or it may indeed be that the Blood of the Saints is yet to come. I just do not know and I don’t think anyone will until it all happens.

DanDMan64
Jan 25th 2008, 08:03 PM
Good question...I don't know.I have an idea. :idea:

I don't think it means that the blood of ALL the prophets and ALL of the saints and ALL that were slain upon the earth, Notice the word ALL is not found in the verse just before the words prophets and saints, but rather that "...in her was found the blood of..." could also be followed by the word SOME, which is not in the verse at all, but is the most reasonable and logical interpretation of the passage.

To think that John meant ALL is too literal and impossible to accuse any one entity of being the sole perpetrator of that crime.

I think he rather meant that it in the sense that we use it on our American "Pledge of Allegiance" ,"... with liberty and justice for ALL." Read the passage in that light, meaning the greatest majority possible we can think of without being specific, and you'll see it makes more sense, at least it does to me. ;)

Also if you think of it in a strictly literal sense, wouldn't that leave out all those who were slain upon the sea? :hmm: I'm sure he didn't mean that either.

danield
Jan 25th 2008, 08:31 PM
A few questions I have about the Vatican being Babylon are these:

1) the Vatican is not built on 7 hills only Rome is. They are two separate cities.

2) It talks about how Babylon is destroyed in one hour, how is the Catholic religion going to be destroyed in one hour. If they bomb the Vatican, it still will have 1000’s of parishes throughout the world that will be alive and well. I am sure they would reelect a new pope and who and why would anyone want to destroy every Catholic Church in the world with in one hour?

3) The Vatican does not trade much. Babylon is a huge merchant of the world.

4) Aren’t purple and scarlet colors that represent wealth in the bible?

5) I am not sold on how bad the Catholics are. All men have sin, even us Protestants. If we dig in the hearts of our churches, I am not sure we will find a much different picture. Sure the sins will not be the same but they will still be there because all have fallen short of the glory of God. The only big immorality I see in the Catholic Church is their child abuse scam. It is horrible, and I know that no good will ever come of that, but those bad apples does not ruin the barrel. I saw a mass the other day on TV and they were very respectful of the lord and handled that mass in a very appropriate way. I am not saying that they are better than the Baptist which is what I am but that Mass was not immoral for sure.

6) Many of the problems described about the Catholic Church are stretched over 2000 years. I think what we are looking at is something stretched over a generation as stated in Matthew.

7) If I stood the Catholic Church side by side with the USA, and would ask myself which one was more deserving with judgment, it would be a no brainer.

8) how are the 7 kings going to apply with the Popes. Those passages just do not seem to fit becasue the Popes terms are life long durations. How can the 7th kings rule be short if it is for the rest of someone life. Who can quanitfy what is short and what is long in a life long position. Not to mention that 7 Popes rule in todays medicine will run much longer than one generation.

I just don’t know about the Catholics being the Babylon. If you have something else that I am missing please show me. Also if you see me wrong about what I have said please show me. And please do not take what I have said as an argument. It is that I am just scratching my head over it really hard (hehe)

DanDMan64
Jan 25th 2008, 10:25 PM
A few questions I have about the Vatican being Babylon are these:

1) the Vatican is not built on 7 hills only Rome is. They are two separate cities. According to Wikipedia, Vatican City is "within" Rome, here's the quote: "Vatican City, officially State of the Vatican City (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Status Civitatis Vaticanae; Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Stato della Città del Vaticano), is a landlocked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlocked) sovereign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty) city-state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state) whose territory consists of a walled enclave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclave) within the city of Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome). ...and the location of the Apostolic Palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Palace) - the Pope's official residence - and of much of the Roman Curia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Curia)." Remember, it doesn't say the woman had seven heads, it says the beast the woman sits upon had seven heads. (Rev. 17:9).

2) It talks about how Babylon is destroyed in one hour, how is the Catholic religion going to be destroyed in one hour. If they bomb the Vatican, it still will have 1000’s of parishes throughout the world that will be alive and well. I am sure they would reelect a new pope and who and why would anyone want to destroy every Catholic Church in the world with in one hour? Well, how do you kill a snake? you cut-off it's head. Also by this time, the one hour occurs within the pouring of the 7th vial, (Rev. 16:19)so the whole world is pretty much "Kaput," so I think the furthest thing from anyone left alive at that time will be, how to put Humpty Dumpty together again, they'll be to pre-occupied dealing with the great Judgment of God being poured-out upon the whole world.

3) The Vatican does not trade much. Babylon is a huge merchant of the world. The Merchants of the world don't trade with Babylon, (Rev. 18:3) says "...the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." NAS says " by the power of her wantonness." The idea being that they made money by investing on her, counting on her wealth and her always wanting to get more, in other words her ambition for power and wealth. I think the letter to Laodicea says it best "Rev 3:17, Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:"

4) Aren’t purple and scarlet colors that represent wealth in the bible?Purple is mostly related with "royalty" it was the color of Christ's only recorded possession on this earth, which may be why Pope's like to wear it, Scarlet represents "blood" as in the saving blood of Jesus Christ, again worn by Catholic higher-ups as a sign of being representatives of Christ.

5) I am not sold on how bad the Catholics are. All men have sin, even us Protestants. If we dig in the hearts of our churches, I am not sure we will find a much different picture. Sure the sins will not be the same but they will still be there because all have fallen short of the glory of God. The only big immorality I see in the Catholic Church is their child abuse scam. It is horrible, and I know that no good will ever come of that, but those bad apples does not ruin the barrel. I saw a mass the other day on TV and they were very respectful of the lord and handled that mass in a very appropriate way. I am not saying that they are better than the Baptist which is what I am but that Mass was not immoral for sure. I agree that "Catholics" the people are not all bad, I'm sure that's why Jesus had John write the letter to Laodicea which is directed to them because they are "Lukewarm", they know salvation comes through Christ but are not willing to fully commit to accepting Christ is the only way. That's not all their fault, they have been wrongly taught that they can live away from God except for the occasional mass now and then, and they will still make it to Heaven by being prayed-out of purgatory, They also ignore the 1st commandment and put many "gods" before God, by kneeling to and praying to "worshiping" Mary, St. Peter, St. Octavius, etc, etc, etc. And Idolatry is an "abomination", many of them see nothing wrong with using astrology or visiting palm readers and diviners, many of which claim to do it in the name of some "Saint", The Bible doesn't say we should confess our sins to anyone but God, and there's only one mediator between God and us, Christ Jesus, they don't see it that way. I'm sorry my friend, I'm not saying they're all lost, I know of a few that do try to worship God the right way and are even filled with the Holy Ghost, but they are few and far between, and most of the leaders are not true Christians, to them the Religion of Catholicism is their god.

6) Many of the problems described about the Catholic Church are stretched over 2000 years. I think what we are looking at is something stretched over a generation as stated in Matthew.I'm not sure what you mean by this, The problems the Catholic church has as a whole are the same problems that plagued the Jewish Religion in Jesus' day, they were so blinded by their "Religion" they couldn't recognize Christ for who He was. That's a universal problem even some of our "Protestant" denominations are falling into now a days. What part in Mathew are you referring to?

7) If I stood the Catholic Church side by side with the USA, and would ask myself which one was more deserving with judgment, it would be a no brainer. Well, then I'm sure glad God is in control and it's not-up-to you. Actually not-up-to me either for that matter. But how can you compare a Nation that was founded on Judeo-Christian biblically inspired values and morals only over 200 years ago, which has only been straying from that over the last 50 years or so, to an institution that strayed from God well over 1800 years ago, and has been responsible for more saints going to heaven than it claims to have "canonized" and say it's a "no brainer".

I just don’t know about the Catholics being the Babylon. If you have something else that I am missing please show me. Also if you see me wrong about what I have said please show me. And please do not take what I have said as an argument. It is that I am just scratching my head over it really hard (hehe)Well, I have tried to address your questions as best I could here, but as I said before, this is not just my belief, but it is the accepted view of most respectable Evangelical scholars and Teachers, and even a few non Evangelicals. Just "google-up" (Babylon The Great and Catholics) and see how many sites you hit. Bottom line is we won't know for sure until it happens, until then your guess is as good as mine.;)

danield
Jan 25th 2008, 10:38 PM
Hey Dan thanks for getting back to me on this and I have quickly read through your post and there are some interesting things there. However I really have time to ask this question.. I will try and get back tonight.. but the vatican is a seperate city from Rome even in your Wikipedia defination. Also the vatician does not have those hills, they are in Rome. Even though it is in with in Rome, it does not report to Rome in any way shape form or fashion. Do you see what I am saying? It is a unique situation I give you but they are seperate countries. By the way thanks for your thoughts.:hug:

DanDMan64
Jan 25th 2008, 11:30 PM
Hey Dan thanks for getting back to me on this and I have quickly read through your post and there are some interesting things there. However I really have time to ask this question.. I will try and get back tonight.. but the vatican is a seperate city from Rome even in your Wikipedia defination. Also the vatician does not have those hills, they are in Rome. Even though it is in with in Rome, it does not report to Rome in any way shape form or fashion. Do you see what I am saying? It is a unique situation I give you but they are seperate countries. By the way thanks for your thoughts.:hug:Hey Daniel, listen I don't want to force you to believe anything you have trouble believing, I just try to point you to the Scriptures and let them speak for themselves. The reference to Rome as the City of seven Hills is a historical fact, in John's day you could ask anyone if they knew which city was known as "The City on seven hills" and they would almost without thinking reply "ROME".

Besides he was shown what the "mystery" was all about so he's doing us a favor by saying, "Rev. 17:9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Permit me to paraphrase a bit and say it a different way; "And here's the solution to the riddle for those of you who want to know. The seven heads stand in reference to "the City of seven Hills" upon which the woman is sitting." Upon reading that John's contemporaries where intended to understand right away that he was talking about the city of Rome. It's not a riddle, and it's not intended to be a riddle.

Also it doesn't matter if "Vatican City" reports to Rome or not, all John is saying is "I saw a woman sitting on a beast, the woman is a harlot called "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth." and the angel said the Beast is Rome." Let me put it another way, if I tell you I saw an add about a movie with John Wayne that had never been seen before, and it would only play for one week at theater down town, if you wanted to see that rare movie because you were a big John Wayne fan, wouldn't you first want to know which theater down town I was talking about? and would you care what relation the movie had with the theater? And if I told you, "I don't know the name of the theater, but it's the only theater with seven flags on top of the roof, wouldn't that help you narrow down the field a bit?

Here's a link to a site that deals with this issue in more detail, with the moderator's permission I'll enter it here if that's OK, If not you can e-mail me and I'll give it to you there if this post gets removed.
http://www.chick.com/information/religions/catholicism/sevenhills.asp

Check it out and if you still have questions let me know. :)

danield
Jan 26th 2008, 02:44 AM
Hey Thanks a ton Dan, this helps alot to understand why so many people believe that Rome is the Babylon.



in John's day you could ask anyone if they knew which city was known as "The City on seven hills" and they would almost without thinking reply "ROME".


Anyway I have really enjoyed your thread and will read this link, but it is always great to bounce something off others when it doesn't add up just right.. I am not sure that they are right, but it does explain why it is thought that way. Have a great night!!

brakelite
Jan 26th 2008, 10:14 PM
Hey all,
The discussion as to who is Babylon is interesting. I do not believe babylon is the US, I reserve the US for the second beast of Rev13. Babylon, according to my take on scriptural interpretation must be a church. Being a city as well must mean a combination
of church and state. The following I hope will give sufficient reasons as to why I believe this to be so.
Babylon obviously is not a literal woman, nor is it a literal city. (God vowed Babylon the city would never rise again.)
So what does a woman represent in bible symbolism?
2 Cor. 6:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Jer. 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.
Isa. 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

A chaste woman or virgin is God's church; a harlot is an apostate church.

Read carefully Rev 17:1-6. and you will find at least 10 points of identification that distinguish this church, and in v. 15 notice that it is an international church.
The beast she rides is the same as the 4th beast of Dan. 7, therefore she is European in origin.
She associates adulterously with the kings of the earth therefore is politically active.Not only so, but beasts represent kingdoms therefore she rules and reigns over a kingdom herself, therefore she is part church and part kingdom.
The nations are drunk with her wine. This can be nothing other than her false doctrines that has infected the world. (See also Jer 51:7)So infected that they can no longer discern good from evil, right from wrong, truth fron error, the holy from the profane, nor the sacred from the worldly.
She is associated with blasphemy. What is blasphemy? There are 3 definitions in the NT.
a. Mark 2:7 Claiming the power to forgive sin.
b. John 10:36 Claiming the prerogatives of God as her own
c. 1 Titus 1:13 Persecuting God's saints in the name of God.
Is wealthy, arrays herself in scarlet and purple,practices and tolerates sin.
She is a mother of other unfaithful churches. Like children however they were at first innocent and pure, but they are now harlots like their motherbecause of their unfaithfulness and neglect of truth.
She is a persecuting church. Reliable historical evidence suugests between 80 and 100 million people were martyed for their beliefs during the dark ages, that is between 500 and 1600 ad.
Finally, she is an apostate Christian church.How do I know this?
In Rev 14:8 it says, 'Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city which made all nations drunk..."
The word fallen is from a root Greek word meaning divorce. No-one can be divorced except they have a genuine relationship first. Therefore this church was at first right with God but has divorced herself from God through her adulterous relationships with the world and her mingling of Babylonian/pagan doctrines with the truth.

I would be happy to try and answer any further questions rising from the above.
By the way, as an ex catholic I am not 'catholic bashing'. It is the system that is wrong, there is no condemnation to those within the catholic community who worship God and live up to the light that they have.

Regards
Brakelite.

DanDMan64
Jan 27th 2008, 02:33 AM
Thanks for your input brakelite, I'll just chock another notch for Babylon The Great as not being the USA, but the Roman Catholic Church, (The Organization in Rome), and not the people in general. :saint:

danield
Jan 27th 2008, 03:47 AM
So Dan where is the USA in revelation? We are the most powerful nation in the world. The largest economic power in the world, and even if we hit the great depression we still would be extremely rich with many natural resources. Don’t forget how much coal, oil, Iron ore, and timber deposits we have. We are still a very rich nation with a very strong military and will be for a long time to come. What I am saying is that we can look up in 400 years and America will still have a major say so in the world. Now how is the world going to be dominated by one person the (8th king) with out dealing with America one way or another? I am not discounting your interpretations of the Catholic Church. I am just stating that where the rubber meets the road in the world today, you find the USA’s tire tracks all around. As far as the 8th king ruling USA he will rule all nations i.e. and the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. So he will conquer the USA and every nation in the world for 42 months, but if we are not the Babylon then the bible does not mention us at all. It just does not add up. I am just asking the question where are we in the Bible.

brakelite
Jan 27th 2008, 04:57 AM
So Dan where is the USA in revelation? We are the most powerful nation in the world. The largest economic power in the world, and even if we hit the great depression we still would be extremely rich with many natural resources. Don’t forget how much coal, oil, Iron ore, and timber deposits we have. We are still a very rich nation with a very strong military and will be for a long time to come. What I am saying is that we can look up in 400 years and America will still have a major say so in the world. Now how is the world going to be dominated by one person the (8th king) with out dealing with America one way or another? I am not discounting your interpretations of the Catholic Church. I am just stating that where the rubber meets the road in the world today, you find the USA’s tire tracks all around. As far as the 8th king ruling USA he will rule all nations i.e. and the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. So he will conquer the USA and every nation in the world for 42 months, but if we are not the Babylon then the bible does not mention us at all. It just does not add up. I am just asking the question where are we in the Bible.

Hi Danield
Hope you don't mind if I answer that question. I dont know how to put a link into a former post so I copied and paste it below. Hope it helps.

Has any considered the nature of the beast of Rev 13:1-8.

Notice that it is a composite beast of all those that preceded it in Daniel 7.
Therefore to fully understand it we must first understand Daniel. The angel Gabriel told Daniel that the beasts were all kingdoms. Therefore the beast of Rev 13 must also be a kingdom, as bible prophecy is consistent in its symbolism.
The main characteristic of those nations or kingdoms was that they were utterly pagan. And a quick glance through history would verify that pagan kingdoms are mostly by nature church/state unions.The pagan priests had major influence over the governments and the laws of the nation reflected the laws of the religion.Any deviation from those laws was quickly dealt with by the state at the priests request.
The papal kingdom is exactly that. A church/state union. The pope is both priest and king. And the catholic faith is a composite of the pagan /church/state unions that preceded it. Babylon, Persain,Greek and Roman pagan beliefs mixed with enough truth to make it somewhat acceptable as a 'Christian' church.
She also exercised the same intolerance of dissent that is typically pagan, and used the state to persecute and prosecute 'heretics'.
She has also displaced Christ as sole mediator between God and man. She blasphemes by claiming the right to forgive sin.And the popes claim that they have the authority to change even the laws of God should they so choose.

The early American pioneers emigrated to the new world to escape the intolerance and the persecution of Europe. They established a state without a king, and allowed freedom of concience in worship(at least in theory) so there would be no pope.

But what is happening today in the US? Very forceful lobbying by the church in both senate and congress to do away with the 1st ammendment and allow the church once again to dictate to the state that certain legislation should be enacted in support of church doctrine and belief. The agreement between catholics and protestants 10 years ago was purely a political agreement to gain political power.

Now read carefully the following. Could it be that the United States is fulfilling these scriptures and is in the process of establishing a church/state union-the image to the first beast?The image that will enforce the mark of the first beast?The image that will persecute and prosecute dissenters?
Is there really any other nation or kingdom with the power and world influence that the U.S. currently has to cause the entire world to bow down to the Roman Catholic Church?


Rev 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Quote: I want to hear some American stand up and shout 'give us justice, give us decency. And to hell with the constitution.
CATHOLIC NEWS 25/7/1963

"The best way to honour Pope John Paul 11, truly one of the great men, is to take his teaching seriously; is to listen to his words and put his words into action here in America. This is a challenge we must accept. But you know something about our country?With the right focus and the right leadership, it's a challenge this nation will accept..."
PRESIDENT G W BUSH 22/3/2001

On his last tour of Poland in 1987,Pope John Paul 11 denounced excessive
materialism and the separation of church and state.
TIME 17/6/1991

When religion is good, it will take care of itself.When it is not able to take care of itself, and God does not see fit to take care of it, so that it has to appeal to the civil power for support, it is evidence to my mind that its cause is a bad one.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

Regards
Brakelite

MLC
Jan 27th 2008, 08:37 PM
But what is happening today in the US? Very forceful lobbying by the church in both senate and congress to do away with the 1st ammendment and allow the church once again to dictate to the state that certain legislation should be enacted in support of church doctrine and belief. The agreement between catholics and protestants 10 years ago was purely a political agreement to gain political power.I may be missing something, but where exactly is that happening? If anything, I would say the US is moving in the exact opposite direction. The separation of Church and State continues to get stronger and stronger here in the USA.

IPet2_9
Jan 28th 2008, 02:49 AM
I wondered for a long time about the U.S.' role in prophesy, but now I am very confident I know now. The U.S. is NOT Babylon--the U.S. is one of the kings who fornicates with her.

Rev. 18:9 When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.

DanDMan64
Jan 28th 2008, 07:03 PM
So Dan where is the USA in revelation? We are the most powerful nation in the world. The largest economic power in the world, and even if we hit the great depression we still would be extremely rich with many natural resources. Don’t forget how much coal, oil, Iron ore, and timber deposits we have. We are still a very rich nation with a very strong military and will be for a long time to come. What I am saying is that we can look up in 400 years and America will still have a major say so in the world. Now how is the world going to be dominated by one person the (8th king) with out dealing with America one way or another? I am not discounting your interpretations of the Catholic Church. I am just stating that where the rubber meets the road in the world today, you find the USA’s tire tracks all around. As far as the 8th king ruling USA he will rule all nations i.e. and the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. So he will conquer the USA and every nation in the world for 42 months, but if we are not the Babylon then the bible does not mention us at all. It just does not add up. I am just asking the question where are we in the Bible.Well Danield, if I had that answer and had a consensus from all posters that it was so, then I could close this thread and move-on to other "puzzlers". If you notice your question to me is about the same as the one I opened the thread with, so right now I'm still in the process of trying to figure it-out. :hmm:

From what I've gathered so far it seems most posters don't agree with you that it is BABYLON THE GREAT, and there seems to be consensus building-up that "perhaps" it could be the second beast of Rev 13.11-18. I personally don't believe that it is that either, or at least I'm not quite convinced yet that this is the case, but I'm open to the idea that it could be.

For now I'll just think of it as just one of the many nations that will eventually be "conquered" by the first beast, and to answer your question as to how it is that such a "powerful" nation can be conquered by the (8th king)? It's because our leaders will be by that time, all too wiling to give it away, as it were, on a silver platter to the 8th king, as a sign of our desire to submit ourselves under his wise counsel and leadership as the one destined to lead the whole world out of the darkness of religious superstition, and into the light of godless scientific and technological enlightenment, (or so will the claim be as to why we will do this.) In fact I believe that the US will be one of the first to do this willingly, and it will be because of our historic position as the "Superpower" we are today, that other nations will be encouraged to follow suit and submit themselves as well.

Again this is all conjecture and supposition on my part at this point, but if you read my post #120 a few pages back, you'll see why I feel that this is possible, mainly because our leaders will be at that point so ready and predisposed to accept the leadership of "one king", that it won't be so much a matter of us being conquered by force, but more of us entering into a marriage covenant of sorts with one who will seduce us (our leaders) into this relation that will seem so right at that time.

In fact if you think of it like this it'll make more sense: The AC will be like a very "sexy" sensuous sweet talking, good looking hunk that will come on the scene as the answer to all the problems of the world, he will be "God's gift to women" (women being all the nations of the earth) and they will fall madly in-love with him and want to give-up everything to have him be their husband, except this "suitor" won't settle for just one wife, like the kings of the east, this guy will be after a harem, and he won't stop until he's seduced them all. (Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.) Like a knight in shining amour.:cool:

So where do I think the high and mighty USA is in Revelation at that point? Just another dumb "chick" falling for the lies of a sweet talking jock. (Boy does that bring back memories of High School!) :lol:

IPet2_9
Jan 28th 2008, 07:19 PM
I think I'm saying the same thing Dan did, though in a lot less words. However, I don't think it is just conjecture any longer--it is very real, and it is happening, now. It's just that the mainstream media plays it down so much.

4IMUNURME
Jan 30th 2008, 03:01 AM
Before I address issues in DanDman64 post#128, and danield post#129, I wish to say a few words!

I just got through reading a few posts in a closed thread entitled " Is America Babylon the Great in Revelation", and I noticed just how sensitive many were to issues that may offend many patriots of our country the US. Of course this assumes everyone here resides in the United States.

Anyway, I just want all who read my posts to remember that the only true kingdom, is gods kingdom. That this system of things is satan's, not gods. That god does not bless any worldly entity like a nation, although he may have had a chosen people with the jews, it those times. I cannot see how so many of the posters on that thread seemed to have such a godly devotion to the United States. I know many were taught in school to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, but I pledge my allegiance to God!

As I see it the U.S. is simply a worldly government in satan's system. For me it does not represent the people as it claims, it does not do the will of the people, it prides itself with all sorts of false values, it takes great effort and claims a separation of church and state, but most of all it's deeds do not seem Christian in nature!

With that said, let me also say that the true nation which exists under god here in the U.S. is not the government, but the people, all the Christians who reside here. To these I give credit to what makes this country great. And that is that!

So just remember I love you all and please do not take offense with what I am about to tell you! Also, I respect all of your views here and all I ask is that we all use this forum to broaden our understanding of scripture!

Yes, my views are different than many, but I tend to think of them as new school, versus old school doctrines. I also intentionally limit my views to those I can support with scripture from the bible, not from other areas or various theological beliefs that also may incorporate historical views, especially ones that originated with Rome or the catholic church.

Lastly, I believe that all understanding of end-time scripture should be looked at without any preconceptions created by external books, movies, etc. Unlike perhaps many of you, my studies were done in solitude, just me and god, and his book. Also, when I began my studies I

4IMUNURME
Jan 30th 2008, 03:20 AM
With regards to my original post #123 to this thread.

I need to make a few corrections!

I stated my belief was that the U.S. was the seventh haad of the scarlet colored wild beast! Well that is what I thought many years ago, but I now understand that to be the United Kingdom. The United States stems from the UK (seventh) to become the eighth king! Yet there are other issues with the UK and the US that regard the two-horned wild beast (dual world power), and the image of the wild beast!

Bottom line is I believe the U.S. to be the wild beast. Not the scarlet colored one, nor the image, nor the seventh head, but simply the wild beast spoken of that had the death stroke that was healed.

So post #123 of mine, when you read seventh, it should of read eighth!

Next, I wish to reinterate that I do feel the great city is in fact NYC. But I do not feel that she is the Harlot! My understanding is that "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH", was written on the woman's head, and that does not necessarily mean it is her name. But I will go into this later in my response to danield and DanDman64.

Later!

IPet2_9
Jan 30th 2008, 05:01 AM
NYC meets several of the qualities of mystery Babylon, except for resting on 7 hills.

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 05:30 PM
...I noticed just how sensitive many were to issues that may offend many patriots of our country the US. Of course this assumes everyone here resides in the United States...4IMUNURME, just so you know where I stand, I am a naturalized US Citizen currently residing in the US, I became a citizen because I grew-up here and I identify with the US as a "mother land" more than the country I was born in (Costa Rica). And even though I do love "America" I also consider myself a Christian first and foremost and an American second, and it pains my heart to see how this great nation that was founded on biblical principles and values (See wallbuilders.org.), is turning it's back on God and embracing secularism and humanism more and more, and distorting the concept of "Separation of church and state" to make it do what it was never intended to do, which is to get every reference to God, The Bible, Christianity, Christ, out of Government, when the original intent was to keep government out of the affairs of the Church. Nevertheless I also realize that this "move" to secularize America was prophesied about and it's necessary to prepare the way for the coming judgment. Even so I think it's important that as long as we remain on this land, the church still has a responsibility to stand for the Word, and to keep doing our part to see that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and to fight the good fight. So feel free to bash the American government and leaders that are on the side of the adversary all you want, I won't feel offended one bit.
...Yes, my views are different than many, but I tend to think of them as new school, versus old school doctrines...Just a note of caution here, "Let God be true and all men be liars...", there's no old school VS new school doctrines, there's only God's doctrines and old and new interpretations of what those doctrines are and what they mean. There are many who claim to have "new revelations" and right away they want to convince everyone else that this is a new doctrine and it must be adopted because "Thus saith The Lord," I for one will do as the Jews in Berea did, and search the scriptures daily, to see whether those things are so, that's what this thread is all about.
Lastly, I believe that all understanding of end-time scripture should be looked at without any preconceptions created by external books, movies, etc. Unlike perhaps many of you, my studies were done in solitude, just me and god, and his book. I agree for the most part, and I agree that studying the Bible as part of your daily devotions is essential for any Christian regardless of long you have been walking the walk of faith, but sometimes external materials are necessary to help us get a better grip on things, such as referencing the original Greek and Hebrew to see if perhaps something got missed in the translation, but always with much prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit so we can clearly see what is there, and not with the intent to force our view to make it fit the scripture, or just take the scriptures that seem to fit our views and ignore or explain away the ones that don't.

Also, when I began my studies I...you what?, come-on, don't leave me hanging like that! :confused

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 05:54 PM
...Bottom line is I believe the U.S. to be the wild beast. Not the scarlet colored one, nor the image, nor the seventh head, but simply the wild beast spoken of that had the death stroke that was healed. So post #123 of mine, when you read seventh, it should of read eighth! OK, so if I'm understanding you correctly, you're going on record here and stating that you believe the whole nation of The United States of America is in fact "The Anti-Christ". If so I'll be eagerly awaiting your follow-up comments in support of that view.
Next, I wish to reinterate that I do feel the great city is in fact NYC. But I do not feel that she is the Harlot! My understanding is that "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH", was written on the woman's head, and that does not necessarily mean it is her name. But I will go into this later in my response to danield and DanDman64.Later!OK, nuff sed! we'll be eagerly waiting for your thoughts on this as well. :hmm:

Buck shot
Jan 30th 2008, 06:44 PM
So Dan where is the USA in revelation? We are the most powerful nation in the world. The largest economic power in the world, and even if we hit the great depression we still would be extremely rich with many natural resources. Don’t forget how much coal, oil, Iron ore, and timber deposits we have. We are still a very rich nation with a very strong military and will be for a long time to come. What I am saying is that we can look up in 400 years and America will still have a major say so in the world. Now how is the world going to be dominated by one person the (8th king) with out dealing with America one way or another? I am not discounting your interpretations of the Catholic Church. I am just stating that where the rubber meets the road in the world today, you find the USA’s tire tracks all around. As far as the 8th king ruling USA he will rule all nations i.e. and the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. So he will conquer the USA and every nation in the world for 42 months, but if we are not the Babylon then the bible does not mention us at all. It just does not add up. I am just asking the question where are we in the Bible.

I want to start out by saying I have not read all of this thread because of lack of time. I know you have considered another US depression but this is another thought.

I am one of those that believe in pre-trib and being thus, I wonder what effect the rapture would have on the population of the US and our military. My secular job puts me in meetings with owners of sawmills and board members of large companies that handle wood products. From these meetings I have found that a lot of the folks that are shaping our country are still Christians today. So, I am not sure how powerful this country will be or how easy this country would be lead into joining a North American Union where it would quickly lose it's identity when our Savior calls us home.

Just my thoughts.

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 07:36 PM
...I am one of those that believe in pre-trib and being thus, I wonder what effect the rapture would have on the population of the US and our military. First-off before I comment, let me say "Welcome" to the thread, all your comments and "thoughts" are welcome and appreciated. Now, as to your first comment/question, as I'm sure you know this is something that has been the source for speculation and conjecture for a long time, and in fact there's a series of movies that have attempted to "Illustrate" the pandemonium and chaos that will result when millions of people suddenly go missing all around the globe.

I for one believe that these events will serve to accomplish three things, 1. Settle once and for all the debate as to whether (pre, mid or post tribers) were correct, with pre-tribers like you and me being proven right. :thumbsup:. 2. Bring about panic and confusion around the world like has never been known before on this planet, not to mention the mourning for the thousands who will die as a direct or indirect result of the millions of us who will not be at our posts to keep doing what would have kept them from dying. :cry: And 3. It will create the perfect opportunity for the Anti-Christ to make his appearance into the scene as "The One" who'll know what to do, what to say, how to calm people-down, how to get a grip on the situation, and how to get going with business as usual, at least for the time being. :mad:.
...My secular job puts me in meetings with owners of sawmills and board members of large companies that handle wood products. From these meetings I have found that a lot of the folks that are shaping our country are still Christians today. So, I am not sure how powerful this country will be or how easy this country would be lead into joining a North American Union where it would quickly lose it's identity when our Savior calls us home.Well, when the "Christians" are gone, what does that leave as a pool of leaders to take-over for them? "Humanists, secularists, atheists, agnostics, sinners" in other words people with weak minds and pre-disposed to go along with the plan, specially when that plan is heralded as a way for people to unite behind a cause and become active in patriotic events and step-up for the common good. (remember 9/11 and all the flags in people's cars, and the candle light vigils, and volunteers of every kind offering to help any way they could. ) I'm not trying to put-down good will and generosity and patriotism, I'm just saying the AC will use all these "good feelings" for his advantage and to further his cause, but without revealing at first his true intentions, and I believe that will make it easier for not an "North American Union" as you put it, but a "World Wide Union" to become a reality, and without knowing it the fulfillment of "End Times prophesies" will be underway. (Even so come, Lord Jesus.):amen:

Buck shot
Jan 30th 2008, 07:47 PM
and I believe that will make it easier for not an "North American Union" as you put it, but a "World Wide Union" to become a reality, and without knowing it the fulfillment of "End Times prophesies" will be underway. (Even so come, Lord Jesus.):amen:

Thanks for the "welcome"

So, maybe this is the reason we cannot see the US in the Bible prophesy. It will not be the same when the Lord takes a large portion away and the country is no more what we see it as today. I am one red blooded American and cannot stand the thought of this country turning against God but without Christians here it will not be the same. This entire world will be changed!

I'm glad we won't be here!:bounce:

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 08:28 PM
...So, maybe this is the reason we cannot see the US in the Bible prophesy. It will not be the same when the Lord takes a large portion away and the country is no more what we see it as today. I am one red blooded American and cannot stand the thought of this country turning against God but without Christians here it will not be the same. This entire world will be changed!

I'm glad we won't be here!:bounce:So am I, though being a "Partial Pretribulationist" I hope I will be found worthy to not be here when it happens. :pray:

As it pertains to why we cannot see the US in the Bible prophesy, I'll ask you to re-read my post #142, but to re-quote myself on that matter:
For now I'll just think of it as just one of the many nations that will eventually be "conquered" by the first beast, and to answer your question as to how it is that such a "powerful" nation can be conquered by the (8th king)? It's because our leaders will be by that time, all too wiling to give it away, as it were, on a silver platter to the 8th king, as a sign of our desire to submit ourselves under his wise counsel and leadership as the one destined to lead the whole world out of the darkness of religious superstition, and into the light of godless scientific and technological enlightenment, (or so will the claim be as to why we will do this.) In fact I believe that the US will be one of the first to do this willingly, and it will be because of our historic position as the "Superpower" we are today, that other nations will be encouraged to follow suit and submit themselves as well.Now I will use your comments and these quote to kind-a summarize what I believed has been "surfacing" here so far as to the role or the identity of the USA in Bible prophecy, and most particularly "The Book of Revelation". 1. The USA is just one of many nations that will submit itself to the authority of the AC. 2. The USA will not only be one of the nations that will submit itself to the authority of the AC, but an active participant and promoter of the AC and his "doctrines", thus fulfilling its role as "The Second Breast", or the "False Prophet". 3. The USA leadership will surrender the country under the authority of the AC, but when the AC goes after Israel, the USA will redeem itself and become "The two wings of a great Eagle" and provide an airlift mission to evacuate Jews to US territory and protect them from the anger of the AC.

Any others I missed, any comments on the three? :hmm:

danield
Jan 30th 2008, 08:33 PM
Well the last couple of posts have really helped me understand how people can feel much differently about the end days. I think a key ingredient is the rapture. First of all let me briefly restate my feelings about how I see think shaping up in the world as we see it and how America fits into scripture (you might not want to read the entire thread). First I feel that the 7 kings mentioned about the mystery Babylon are the leaders of our country. I do not think President Bush is the 8th king, and I say this plainly because I have seen several posts on other threads alluding to people believing this. I am not one of them. He may be one of the 7 kings but he is defiantly not the 8th king or the AC. Also know that the 7 kings may indeed be yet to come. The seven mountain ranges are the ranges I have listed previously. I feel that America fits the description of the world economic powerhouse that is seen in Rev 18, and our immorality is exported throughout the world. I feel that the blood of the saints are indeed the good Christian people we have in our country, and somehow get caught up in the struggle with the 8th king. I feel that this 8th king will appoint 10 other kings to rule over the USA and they will hate the USA and strip her of her riches. I do not see the RCC or just one city like NYC as being the mystery Babylon. There is just not enough economic or political power from those 2 entities as stated in Rev 18. I will also go on the record to state that I do not believe that the USA is the AC. I think the AC will be a person that will rule over all nations, and he is able to emerge as the 8th king through the defeat of America as stated in Rev 17. Right now I feel America is the protector of sort for the world going to war, and when we are taken out of the picture things heat up considerable. Now I can see this coming to pass without a pre-trib rapture. If you put in a rapture, I believe many things do change. I still think we will be a very rich nation simply because of our natural resources. However I can see many different political powers struggle throughout the world. Unrest will be everywhere. But I disagree with the Pre-trib rapture so let me reserve my thoughts on what would happen. However I can see how other scenarios can be supported by using the pre trib rapture into their mix.

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 09:26 PM
Hey Daniel, thanks again for your contribution, it is appreciated and your points well taken, though not agreed to entirely, at least not by me though there may be others that do agree with you.

Again, I don't want to turn this into a debate, I just let everyone speak their peace and see if we can get a picture of the USA in the future based on what the Bible says.

Keep them coming! :pp

Buck shot
Jan 30th 2008, 09:51 PM
the USA will redeem itself and become "The two wings of a great Eagle" and provide an airlift mission to evacuate Jews to US territory and protect them from the anger of the AC.

Any others I missed, any comments on the three? :hmm:

Okay, sold except for this part. Why would an ungodly (if the rapture has taken place) used to be nation help the Jews?

I do agree that without the Christians here this nation would probably be the first to jump onto anyone's band wagon that seemed to have answers for what's going on. With the direction that we are headed now, Danield could have a point that we (the US) could turn our backs on God even with the Christians still here. I think it would be way down the road without the rapture though.

The rapture would definitly speed everything up!

IPet2_9
Jan 30th 2008, 10:10 PM
> Okay, sold except for this part. Why would an ungodly (if the rapture has taken place) used to be nation help the Jews?

Why not?

DanDMan64
Jan 30th 2008, 10:12 PM
Okay, sold except for this part. Why would an ungodly (if the rapture has taken place) used to be nation help the Jews?...This idea came-up earlier in posts# 77, 80, 81 and 82.

I listed it above because as I said there in post #80, is something I thought was significant and worth mentioning, though I admit it's a long-shot. I guess it's based on wishful thinking mostly, I just hate seeing the US as one of the "bad guys". ;)

Buck shot
Jan 31st 2008, 04:47 PM
This idea came-up earlier in posts# 77, 80, 81 and 82.

I listed it above because as I said there in post #80, is something I thought was significant and worth mentioning, though I admit it's a long-shot. I guess it's based on wishful thinking mostly, I just hate seeing the US as one of the "bad guys". ;)

I hear ya brother :rolleyes:. I would like to think that we (the US) would always stand up for what is right. Time will tell.

Buck shot
Jan 31st 2008, 04:50 PM
> Okay, sold except for this part. Why would an ungodly (if the rapture has taken place) used to be nation help the Jews?

Why not?

I wonder because of the history of how ungodly countries have treated the Jews in the past.

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 05:07 PM
So I've got two problems with that:

a) Israel itself has been an ungodly country in the past. Ezra 4, for example (well okay, that, and the entire second half of the Old Testament). Why wouldn't an ungodly nation help another ungodly nation, who has ungodly aims?

b) How do we justify measuring the godliness of a country based on their treatment of specifically Jews? Shouldn't the godliness of a country be measured by their treatment of PEOPLE?

Buck shot
Jan 31st 2008, 06:14 PM
Still pondering...
It would be great if the nation that was founded on the right to serve God be the country that swooped in (our military on the wings of an eagle) to gather God's chosen. Puts me in mind of John Wayne.


a) Israel itself has been an ungodly country in the past. Ezra 4, for example (well okay, that, and the entire second half of the Old Testament). Why wouldn't an ungodly nation help another ungodly nation, who has ungodly aims?

I don't believe it will be ungodly at that time
b) How do we justify measuring the godliness of a country based on their treatment of specifically Jews? Shouldn't the godliness of a country be measured by their treatment of PEOPLE?

I agree to a point. But Rome treated it's people very well from what I understand. When it all boils out I think a country in itself is not godly or ungodly but it is the ruling folks that I am thinking of. HMMM...

Raindrops_On_Roses
Jan 31st 2008, 10:38 PM
I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for this question, and forgive me for being lazy and not researching already opened threads on the matter, but I've always wondered if there are any Bible references as to the influence of the US on the world, being the super power that it is today, and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Has anyone done any research on this, or can recommend a link to a site that deals with this question?

Thanks in advance to all who will contribute, this is not a discussion per say, just way to get some research started. :hmm:

My dad told me that in the bible it says something about "The country with eagle wings" and that it referred to the US. Something about it's downfall or whatever >.>

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 10:48 PM
I agree to a point. But Rome treated it's people very well from what I understand. When it all boils out I think a country in itself is not godly or ungodly but it is the ruling folks that I am thinking of. HMMM...

Sounds like you're taking for granted that Rome was ungodly. Rome eventually became the most godly empire, ever. They treated their _citizens_ well. Jews were just another group of non-citizens. And even that wasn't entirely true--Paul was a Roman citizen. Herod was Jewish.

Back to the U.S.: We are the "land of freedom" and "opportunity". Sure--unless you're African or Indian. They weren't citizens. Those Cherokees weren't very free when they got run out to Oklahoma. We enslave Africans and massacre the Indians, and the U.S. is a godly country--because we fought the Nazis during the Holocaust and give Israel $6 billion in free taxpayer money every year??

IPet2_9
Jan 31st 2008, 10:52 PM
and being a "Christian" nation I would think some mention of it would be made somewhere in scripture.

Having read through the Bible multiple times, I have no recollection of any mention of a Christian nation, anywhere. At least, not on this world.

MLC
Feb 1st 2008, 05:59 AM
the USA will redeem itself and become "The two wings of a great Eagle" and provide an airlift mission to evacuate Jews to US territory and protect them from the anger of the AC.

The verse you are referring to is of course Rev. 12:14

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. "

...but keep in mind that it says in Exodus 19:4 "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself."

What we see there is a precedent and possibly a hint as to what God means in that context. God saved them from the Egyptians and he referred to it as "eagles' wings", so when he once again saves them it says it will once again be from "two wings of a great eagle". I believe God is simply saying he is going to do this, not the United States. Just because the United States is symbolized by an eagle, does not mean that every time the bible talks about an eagle that it is referring to the US.

napsnsnacks
Feb 1st 2008, 02:14 PM
...but keep in mind that it says in Exodus 19:4 "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself."

Based on that, are you bringing up the possibility that 40 years of wandering the desert was the figurative eagle?

In this modern day, and with the population of the mid east, there really isn't any desert for Jews, Christian or not, to conceal themselves in, except for the ones that take refuge in Petra.

MLC
Feb 2nd 2008, 03:26 AM
No, what I mean is just that God will protect them, in whichever way he chooses. Not necessarily by sending them into the desert, and not necessarily that it is the US doing air lifts, it is just that in some way God will provide safe haven for them.

The main point of my post is simply saying that just because it talks about an eagle does not mean he is referring to America. In Exodus God referred to the Eagle when he was talking about how he saved them from the Egyptians, so I think he may just be saying once again that he will save them. No specifics as to how he will do so, just that he will.

DanDMan64
Feb 4th 2008, 06:00 PM
Having read through the Bible multiple times, I have no recollection of any mention of a Christian nation, anywhere. At least, not on this world.I know what you mean, that's why I put the quotation marks around the word, it was intentional to emphasize that historically we have thought of ourselves as a Cristian nation, and I believe if you go to other countries and ask them what religion is predominant in the USA, they will probably reply "Cristian", in fact that's why radical Muslims consider us "Infidels", because we're Cristian and to them any country which is not Muslim is an Infidel.

The emphasis is intentional for another reason, that I feel in my heart God Himself thinks of us as a Cristian nation, and even though the main focus of His Word is on Israel and it's neighbors, He knows who is for Him and who is against Him as far as nations go, just as He knows the thoughts and intents of every individual's heart. And just as He has a plan for every individual person, I believe He has plans for the leaders of Nations and will use them according to His Divine purpose to fulfill what has been prophesied by His servants.

My focus here is to try to find clues that will tell us if during the tribulation, we will continue to stand for the true Christ, or turn our backs on Him and become just one more "anti-Christian nation", and even if we do will we, either as a nation or perhaps as "rebels" against our own leadership, turn to God and be instrumental to some extent in helping Israel to get ready to receive the Messiah.

I tell you one thing, when Christ returns to rule the earth, there will be a big chunk of "saints" coming back with Him, that will either have come from The USA, or will be there as a direct result of our missionary work around the world, and for that we should all be thankful and feel proud about, instead of focusing on how "evil" we have become in the last few years, and what a terrible influence we have been.:)

Now I don't deny the fact that we have done evil, and that our leadership is "moving" us in a direction that's more secular and less "godly", but I just don't see that as enough to label us as "Babylon The Great", though it might be enough turn us into "the second Beast", even though I now have serious doubts about that as well. :confused

Buck shot
Feb 5th 2008, 09:48 PM
I tell you one thing, when Christ returns to rule the earth, there will be a big chunk of "saints" coming back with Him, that will either have come from The USA, or will be there as a direct result of our missionary work around the world, and for that we should all be thankful and feel proud about, instead of focusing on how "evil" we have become in the last few years, and what a terrible influence we have been.:)


:D Well Said! God has truly blessed us and we have surely tried to spread His word by going forth to all nations! :rolleyes:

Daniel B
Feb 6th 2008, 06:20 AM
It is arrogant of us to even think the US deserves a mention in the Word.

DanDMan64
Feb 6th 2008, 04:21 PM
It is arrogant of us to even think the US deserves a mention in the Word.Hello there Daniel B, boy I feel so blessed to have such a popular name!:lol:

Now Daniel, you can't just come in here and make bold statements like that and not give us an explanation of what you mean.

Would you please enlighten us and tell us what is it about the USA that makes it so unworthy of any scriptural reference? Inquiring minds want to know! :hmm:

DanDMan64
Feb 6th 2008, 06:48 PM
Thanks Tom11 for your very insightful contributions to this thread, I do believe you're right, the end times are upon us and regardless of where you live on the earth, the signs of the "New World Order" are everywhere to be seen by anyone who cares to open their eyes to see them.:o

Having said that I think it's important we as believers and servants of "The King of kings and The Lord of lords" understand our role in all this, we are "The Bride of Christ" our Bridegroom is coming soon to take us to His Father's House to consummate our marriage, in the meantime we need to work in purifying ourselves to get ready for that time, and win as many souls as we can to complete the number that only God the Father knows make-up the fullness of our body. Then He will tell the Son to come down to our house and call us "His Bride" up to meet Him in the Air.:pp

Does that sound like a "Pre-trib" view?, you bet it does, but please let's not derail the thread into a debate about pre, post, mid, mil, amil, there are plenty of other threads about that. I'm just stating my view because I'm the OP, and even-though I said before I didn't favor my pre-trib view too much, I've been getting deeper into the Word and I now have a better understanding of why I believe what I believe, and I'll just leave it at that for now. :cool:

If anybody cares to hear (read) what I have found in the Word that has "restored" my faith in the pre-trib view and would even like to debate me on it, feel free to PM me or e-mail me and we can talk about it, or perhaps I'll start a new thread about it later on if I feel led to do so by The Spirit.

Unlike brother Daniel B, I do believe the USA is somewhere in the Word, I believe we have seen glimpses of it on this thread, and I believe there is still more to be found, so I thank you all for your interest, and let's keep on trucking. ;)

Tom11
Feb 6th 2008, 10:32 PM
This second beast in Revelation 13 has "horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon.. Could this be perhaps the Buffalo (USA)?????

DanDMan64
Feb 6th 2008, 10:36 PM
This second beast in Revelation 13 has "horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon.. Could this be perhaps the Buffalo (USA)?????Yes it could be, and it has been brought-up before.

Is there any particular reason you believe that it is? or are you asking us for our opinion? :hmm:

danield
Feb 8th 2008, 03:22 AM
Dan, I thought you might like to take a look at this clip. It talks about America and it's part in the end times. It runs for several weeks so it may give you a different insight from what we have all discussed. I am not changing my position nor am I trying to pushing this version, but I think many people are recognizing that America has to fit into end times somehow.

http://www.godsnews.com/broadcast/broadcast_020508.html

Firstfruits
Feb 8th 2008, 11:45 AM
Most bible prophecy is based on the events that will happen in Israel/Jerusalem, but the events that are fulfilled in Israel/Jerusalem will affect the whole world.

DanDMan64
Feb 8th 2008, 09:12 PM
Dan, I thought you might like to take a look at this clip. It talks about America and it's part in the end times. It runs for several weeks so it may give you a different insight from what we have all discussed. I am not changing my position nor am I trying to pushing this version, but I think many people are recognizing that America has to fit into end times somehow.

http://www.godsnews.com/broadcast/broadcast_020508.html

Thank you DanielD, as you well know I am one of those people that believe that it does, and that the word mentions it as well, which is why I started this thread, to talk about all the different views that people have based on either their personal interpretation of scripture, or on the views of leading Bible Scholars and Teachers of today, of which Perry Stone is one that I like a lot myself.

Now to that point let me say that I had not heard Perry’s views on how the USA fits into Bible prophesy until now that I have watched this clip you linked us to here, but I’m so intrigued by it that I believe I will read his book which is advertised on the clip.

Now if I may I will include this scripture which is the basis from which his view is derived, and I will paraphrase what I believe he’s saying about what each verse means, because it fits this thread beautifully. Again please keep in mind this is not what I say, I’m just taking the liberty to paraphrase what I believe his alluding to in the clip, as it pertains to this thread. Also note this is not DanielD’s view either as he has expressed on his post.

This is from Matthew 21:34-41, and he uses this in concordance with Isaiah 51, about “The Vineyard”.


21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: The “certain householder” is Jehovah God, the vineyard is the nation of Israel as a whole, which He chose from among all the peoples of the world as his own, and gave them His laws (winepress) and special divine protection (hedge/tower). the priests, judges and kings are “The husbandmen”, then He left them to watch over them from heaven to see what they would do.


21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. The servants were the prophets, who were sent to speak for God and to demand holiness from the people that the husbandmen were supposed to be leading according to God’s will.

21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. Most of the prophets were killed because they spoke words from God that the husbandmen didn’t want to hear, about how badly they were doing their job.

21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. I think we all know who “The Son” is.

21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. I think we also all know how they treated “The Son”.
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? Notice this was Jesus speaking, He says God would at this point reconsider the whole situation about His vineyard and act personally to decide what to do about the evil and disobedient husbandmen, and he says it in the form of a question which has but one obvious answer.

21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy these wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.The disciples reply with that one obvious answer, and thus without knowing it declare a prophesy upon the religious and political order of their own people, and what Perry Stone believes brings the USA into the picture, as the “other husbandmen”, which will take-up the cause of bringing men’s souls as fruit acceptable to fill God’s cup with the wine of His gladness.

21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?Here Jesus brings in a reference to another prophesy dealing with builders and a stone, that’s in Psalm 118:22,23. and He’s bringing-it-up because that’s the prophesy that will be fulfilled soon when they (the priests and the Pharisees of V.45) have Him crucified and refuse to believe He was the Messiah even after His resurrection.

21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.Now this is the passage that according to Perry Stone, most Bible Scholars have traditionally believed referred only to “The Gentiles”, but that he believes, in Jesus referring to “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” He was speaking of “The United States of America.” :idea:

21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.This is a personal note; I believe this means that the stone being “The gospel of Jesus Christ” whosoever falls on it and embraces it, his heart of stone is “broken” and a new heart of flesh is liberated to live a life that’s pleasing to God. But rejecting the gospel will bring terrible judgment on them that try to avoid it.

Perry Stone also brings other things into the argument as to why he believes, The USA is not only mentioned, but very prominently pointed to in scripture as being an instrument of God for good during this “End Times”, which is why I believe reading his book will be a worth while endeavor, at least for me it will. (Please Note I’m not neither endorsing nor denouncing his claims, I just think they have merit and for me I would like to look further into it.)

Again Thank you DanielD for bringing this view into the discussion. :thumbsup: Even though you still believe the USA is Babylon. :rolleyes:

danield
Feb 8th 2008, 09:27 PM
Yes, I think America will be the Babylon talked about in Revelation. Right now I believe America is or has been the restrainer but when the 8th king takes over, which will probably be by force, America will be the Babylon as described in Rev 18. And I have not heard Perry Stones view as well.

DanDMan64
Feb 8th 2008, 11:34 PM
Yes, I think America will be the Babylon talked about in Revelation. Right now I believe America is or has been the restrainer but when the 8th king takes over, which will probably be by force, America will be the Babylon as described in Rev 18. And I have not heard Perry Stones view as well.Hey danield, I know you believe this and again I say I understand it, but I just don't share it. That's one nice thing about America, you have the freedom to believe what you will, which is fine with me as long as your salvation is not compromised or affected by believing one thing or another.

Now I'll say this in love, not to put you down but just to give you one more thing to consider about the issue of "who is Babylon The Great", and why I believe the USA is not deserving of that dishonor, and the judgment which will be bestowed upon it.

The Judgment of Babylon The Great will be "great", and I mean that as in: terrible and so completely and utterly devastating, that there will be no doubt in any body's mind that God really "hated" this "woman".

Now you say that the indiscretions, sins, corrupt morals, and poor judgment in the part of some of the leaders of this country over the past 100 years or so, which are and were not shared or endorsed by most of the evangelical Christian community of this country, which love God and are loved by Him; are enough to merit God making that "city" (not "country") worthy of such showing of His holy and righteous anger? I would think not! that's paramount to a child who was generally thought of as a "good kid", being given a sentence of death in the electric chair for stealing a loaf of bread.:cry:

On the other hand sending an old man who was finally caught after a lifetime of murdering people to that chair, that would be a punishment befitting the crimes. Such as I believe is the case of the Roman Catholic Church, that blasphemous entity that in the name of "The Holy Trinity" does nothing but to perpetuate the mystic and idolatrous rituals of old "Babylon", which had been an enemy of God and His people for thousands of years dating back to it's founders, the builders of Babel in the plains of Shinar. They started out wanting world domination and they're still at it today, and they will come very close to it during the tribulation, and it will take an act of God to stop them, just as He had to intervene to make them desist from building the tower. :mad:

Please forgive me for being so insistent about that point, I know that I probably won't convince you to change your mind and that's OK. I guess only time will tell if you or I or perhaps someone else we haven't heard from yet will be "right" about this question. I do pray and hope that when we see it unfold, it will be from up from the grand stands and not down on the field. ;)

As always your contributions are greatly appreciated. :kiss:

I apologize to any "Catholic" brethren reading this posts that might be offended by my comments, please understand they are not directed at you personally but at your leaders in Rome, whom I don't believe to be "true Christians" at heart as I believe can be proven from scripture, though I'd rather not debate that here on this thread. Thanks.

danield
Feb 9th 2008, 05:12 AM
Hey Dan, I hear ya! But let me say that I do not think our country is horrible. There are some really fine people, ministries and genuine love for their fellow man here with in our boarders. I also want to say that this country over the last 100 years has been a very good country, but we have been drifting completely in the opposite direction from what even our fathers have been use to. Did you catch the news today? How many murders did you see that made national news. One guy walked into city hall and opened fire on the city councilors, and other Girl in a Tec School opened fire there. Then in LA earlier today a man killed his family and shot 2 swat officers. Now this is just what made national news. But it does not stop there, if we look on the net we find pornography that is out of control and exported across the globe. The wealth of our country has pushed many of our young to drugs and alcohol. Also, if we look at our structure of our business, greed is good is the mainstay of our philosophy. Please know I am not a liberal socialist, but we sure have gone over board to make a profit at any cost here in the USA. Look at the movies that come out of Hollywood that are exported around the world, how many times is the Lords name in vain sensationalized with in them, not to mention everything else in those movies. How many grown women teachers have been caught sleeping with their minor students this day and age? Pedophiles don’t just stop there. Look in the Catholic Church of how ministers have abused young boys. And don’t get me started on all the atheists’ religious groups that are dominating our society through federal judges. I know we can probably just make a list a mile long of all the bad things we do, but what I am trying to show is our immorality has grown extremely fast in the last 50 years. I am not sure if I have driven the point home about our immorality, and I have only mentioned a few things. Surely you can see what is going on today.
Now Let me share with you just some of my concerns that unravel the thought process of what so many main line ministers calling for the Catholic Church to be the present day Babylon.
How has the present Day Catholic church exported immorality throughout the world?
1) Mary worshiping.
Now, I think this is just not warranted. The main web site of the Catholic Church denounces Mary worshiping plain and simple. What they do is ask for is for Mary to intercede on their behalf (to put in a good word to Christ on their behalf). We have got to realize that people outside America did not live like us. Women in other countries have not been able to have the freedoms our women have easily experience in our society. Through the years women had to ask someone to talk to a man in charge in order to get their message across. They did not have the authority to go directly to them, and I can easily see the same thought process happening to the poor in third world counties. They needed a figure that would be on their level to have access to the higher authority. In contrast, we believe, in today’s world, that we can go directly to the boss for anything with out blinking an eye. I am not condoning what some in the Catholic Church have done, but I can see how it got started. I freely bow my head to Christ and ask his forgiveness, but saying it is immoral for people to ask Mary to "hey go put in a good word with your son for me" is not going to get them in big trouble mainly because I do not think that is putting Mary in a position of worship. The Official word from the Church is just that… They do not ask Mary for forgiveness of their sins but they acknowledge that she is in heaven along with many saints. They feel that Gods kingdom has many houses. And I feel that there are indeed many angels and saints along side Christ in heaven too. But hey I am a Baptist!
2) Improper doctrine.
Now this is a touchy subject and you will probably have to get a catholic to debate issue for issue here because I am just not as versed in their teaching, but I do know that what I have heard ie purgatory, their way of communion, confession, their worship is the only way to Christ is on the surface not what I believe. However, no man has come up with the most perfect way to worship the trinity. If you did then I guess you would be the second coming of Christ (hehe I am joking!). But in all seriousness what they have taught is a different way to worship our lord and savior Christ. It is indeed different from ours but at the end of the day we are both bowing our heads to Christ, And isn’t that what really counts? Yes we believe that salvation occurs in the heart, but if the Catholics go to the heart via the brain, doesn’t that get us to the same place? I am not condoning their religion because they do indeed have their false IMO but I make the best choice I can to worship The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. But the Pope thinks I am not doing it in the most perfect way and all I can say is God bless him. Maybe God will open both our eyes to give us the privilege to know a better way to give the Lord the highest reverence possible. But in all their teaching, it is not Immoral. They do not stand for immorality. They have had priest carry on improper behavior to children but they have denounced it plainly. If they were supporting it now it would be a whole different subject but they are not. And we have to look at what is true and not what is hyped up by its opponents. Now I have chosen the word opponent carefully because I believe some of their bad press has been brought on by people trying to bring down the Catholic Church in hopes on landing new followers of their type of religion. Now the Pope is saying come follow me and the protestant leaders are saying no come follow me, well I say that Christ is the head of the church and he is king. There is bickering with in the churches over the almighty dollar (donations to their churches) and that is what is wrong IMO. I do not think all protestant leaders are trashing the Catholics but there are sects that really go after them. Now there is false doctrines being taught out there and it is going to take Christ return to straighten them all out but seeing the Catholic Church as an immoral institution is just not on my radar screen at all. Can you see this? Can you see this spiritual warfare going on to try and put an evil image in the seat of where Christ is suppose to be ruling? It is not right, and I am not a Catholic and I can easily see it. People are finding a bad apple in the barrel and tossing the entire barrel away! I have just witnessed many wonderful Catholic followers whose hearts are just beautiful. It is a shame think that they are part of something bad when they are not.
3) The Blood of the saints.
The is a big ace in the whole where many point to the Catholic Church actually spilling blood, and it is compelling. But there were many protestant leaders who were just as vicious as some of the Catholic leaders. Killing in the name of God has really been a convenient way to wage war against their enemy and justify it. And it is not isolated to the Catholic Church nor is it isolated to Christianity. Many Innocent people have died at the hands of horrible leaders calling their actions were done in the name of "God". All I can say is they will answer to our God for their many sins. As for this passage in revelation, I think it is tied to the events of sorrows as opposed what happened centuries ago. I think Revelation is a bundle of unique events that will be tied together that will be unmistakably apparent even to the staunchest atheists. The blood of the saints will happen in the final days. Even if the rapture happens as the pretrib guys see it there will be people who try to follow Christ and it shows us in the letters to the seven churches that they will be put to the test. This is where I see the blood of the saints happening.
4) Economic might of the Catholic Church.
Now even Ray Charles can see that this does not fit the bill. The Catholic Church is not an economic might any way you look at it. It has wealth which much has been lost to lawyers/clients in the child abuse scandals. They are not broke, but they are a long way from being an economic powerhouse for the world. Even centuries ago at their height they did not have a fluent trade with the orients and Africa and the Americas. As for Today, they do good to keep the money flowing for their missions. Now this should be extremely clear to everyone. This prerequisite of being Babylon does not pass the test for the Catholic Church at all. Babylon’s main characteristic is being the major consumer of goods and services through out the world. It also says plainly that it traded even in slaves. The Catholic Church has never done this nor has it been a major economic consumer of goods. We can get into details here if you want, but this should be very apparent to all, and I am so surprised that the many ministries that are pushing this end times version has not stop to pause itself and realize what a big mistake they are making just right here. Even if you dismiss my version of events their has to be another superpower trading democracy with 7 hills emerge on the world scene because the catholic church is not nor was it ever the major trading partner of the world. It was rich but there is a big difference in being rich and being a huge trading partner of the world. You can make a better case for the royal family of Saudi Arabia than the Catholic Church. But it can’t be them because the Babylon in the Bible traded in a wide variety of items. Surely I have driven my point home on this one.
5) The seven Hills
I hear your point about how the seven hills are associated with Rome and in turn Vatican City, but I believe the bible is going to hit closer to the mark than you think. We all accept that the Vatican City is a separate ruling entity from Rome and Italy. The seven hills are not in the Vatican City. It is like saying that Washington D. C. is a part of the state of Virginia. Actually it is much more than that. It is like saying that Cuba is part of America. They are different governments/countries entirely. Their proximity puts them next to one another but they are ruled by separate laws and leaders. And the seven hills are a part of Rome Italy not the Vatican. It is close but no cigar.

And finally I just wanted to address the holiness and sanctity of the services that are provided by those churches. Look at a Mass on TV. If you find a good priest he will deliver a good message about loving the lord with all your heart mind soul and strength and loving your neighbor as you would yourself. They will really try their best to give the lord their upmost respect and love. I am not saying they are perfect, but just watch them. They are not evil. Now turn on the news on TV. Which one do you think the lord will be most pleased with?

I will close by saying that these are just a few reasons why I reject the popular teaching about the Catholic Church. Also I want you to know that I hope I have not offended you in any way. If I have, please forgive me because it was not my intentions at all. I would much rather be fishing with you or playing golf with you than talking about such horrible issues than what may happen in our lifetime or future generations to come. I think my passion about this issue stems from seeing so many preach about the CC being Babylon and I can see how wrong they are and I am energized to defend it for some strange reason. Anyway you have done a great job in this thread and for that you deserve a golf clap! Maybe we can hear of something interesting from Perry next week, but I am afraid of what he may come up with because he believes that Mary is the catalyst that unites the Muslim community and the Catholic Church during the end days! But it will be interesting to watch and maybe learn something.


As always God Bless!

DanDMan64
Feb 9th 2008, 08:42 AM
Hey Daniel, first-off please understand that I love you in The Lord and I respect your views and appreciate your comments and thoughts very much, and as long as we try to keep it friendly I'm willing to keep debating this issue as much as you or anybody else wants to do so.

Having said that I will not try to address your last batch of comments one by one because you gave me a lot to chew-on there and it's obvious we've said enough and neither one is willing to concede to the other's point of view, and we'll probably never will, or I should say until the matter is settled in time when the judgment happens and we find-out the truth.

I just got to say this though, as I read your comments I feel that perhaps you're problem is that you think God will base his judgment on "Babylon The Great" solely on their sins of the last 50 years or so, and when your time frame is that narrow then even I would tend to agree with you that the USA looks worst than the RCC.

Another part of your problem is that you have fallen for the RCC's ability to "pull the wool" over the eyes of the whole world by their excellent manipulation of the media, which is the way the AC will be able to conquer the world, by saying and appearing to be one thing but actually being totally the opposite, that will be fine for fooling us common folk, but not the God that knows the thoughts and intents of the heart of every man, and is aware of all the things they do and plot in secret.

God is eternal, we are here because he made us, and he's been keeping tabs on His enemies since Genesis (Babel) and all through-out history up till he finally judges Spiritual (Babylon) in Revelation. Their sins, the blood of the saints, the evil deeds of their former Popes, how their teachings are linked almost entirely and directly to the mystical Babylonian rituals and beliefs of ancient Babylon, it's all well documented in books such as "The Woman Rides The Beast" from Chick Publications, or from Chuck Smith of The Calvary Chapels, or many other authors that have researched the history of the RCC. There's so much information covering that issue that we can cover on this thread, yet I'd be happy to do so if you like, unless you feel your views on the subject are so unshakable that you don't think you could never be "turned" not even if the current Pope himself confessed it in person to you.

As to the issue of Rome and Vatican City, I don't understand why you think that there has to be a relation between the two in order for the argument to be valid, and I have never said anything about Vatican City being the city of Seven Hills. The vision is clear that the City of Seven Hills is Rome, which is the beast with seven heads. And just as Vatican City "Sits" in the middle of Rome, physically, you see in the vision the "woman" (Vatican City, the home of the RCC) siting on the beast, it doesn't say it guides it, or talks to it, or makes it dance or anything other than it's just there "sitting pretty" if you will, on the beast.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but quite frankly I don't care if you get it or not, I'm quite content with being in the majority view of the RCC being identified as "Babylon The Great", and I think even with all it's faults the USA has a special place in God's heart still, and I don't see Him suddenly turning on her and pouring such horrible judgment as to wipe it clean right off the face of the earth based on the iniquities of some in the past few years, for I know that there are more than 10 righteous people in the whole country, and as he told Abram He wouldn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for at least that many, He would not do it today.

Now let me get off this High Horse cause I'm getting dizzy. :blush:

I do too love you all, Amen and Amen.:hug:

dan
Mar 4th 2008, 09:14 AM
Whre is the US in Bible prophesy?

It is one of the nations whose fields are ripe for the harvest.

Laborers are reaping within it, just like they have been throughout all nations since Pentecost.

The reaping will continue within the US and all nations, until the Lord returns, shuts the door, and those who are His enter into the Marriage with Him forevermore.

...Lybia are two of the nations that attack Israel in the "End Times". Africa fits, nothing distinguishes Germany in this case.
Germany, to my knowledge, has never had a leopard associated with it.