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Firstfruits
Nov 28th 2007, 12:47 PM
First let us see who are in the first resurrection, and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Although this scripture does not say where they dwell with Christ but as we look at the following scriptures we will see where they shall dwell with Christ.

So we know who are in the group, so let us have a look at the next scripture.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: And them that had gotten the victory over the beast, And over his image, And over his mark, And over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Where is the sea of glass located?
Is this the same group as the first?

If it is the same group then how did they get there according to the following scripture.

Revelation 13:14,15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Now have a look at these scriptures:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Where is the alter?
Where shall they be resting?

Revelation 7:9-17.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Is this group seen to be in heaven or on earth?

Again where is the golden alter?

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

If all groups mentioned are the same, then the millenium reign must be in heaven, according to the scriptures.

Firstfruits

ShirleyFord
Nov 28th 2007, 08:20 PM
FF, I believe that all of those Scriptures refer to the same group as Revelation 20:4.

Jesus reigns bodily now in heaven over His kingdom.

He now has all power, all authority, in heaven and in earth.

Jesus reigns spiritually on earth today through His body, the Church.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

When God saves us, we have part in the first resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and we are translated spiritually into His heavenly kingdom.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


When we have part in Christ's resurrection, we are made alive spiritually and yet live even when we die physically, as we see the case in Revelation 20:4 with those who have died. I believe that the "thousand years" is symbolic of the period of time from the time of the ascension of Christ until His Second Coming.


Shriley

DIZZY
Nov 29th 2007, 12:08 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
Let's put this in order according to what the scriptures say.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

As we look at the above verse we must remember that the earth is going through tribulation at this point. These saints under the alter are asking God to avenge their blood that had been spilt, they where martyred saints who have already come out of the tribulation. God informes them they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren are killed the same way as them. So they wait patiently for their fellow servants and brethren who are martyrd just as they were.

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These before the throne are those who have come out from under the altar and the rest of their fellow servants who had been martyred in the Great Tribulation and they all stand together before the throne.

Revelation 8:1-5
1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

The only thing mentioned about the saints in these verses are that an angle is taking a golden censer and he was given incense and offered the incense with the prayers of the saints and it became an offering on the golden altar before the throne. The aroma of the incense and the prayers of the saints ascended before God. Then the angel took the same censer and threw it to the erath, which caused more devestation on the earth.

Revelation 13:14,15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

These are those souls you see under the altar and then before the throne, they were martyred because they would not bow down to the beast or his image.


Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: And them that had gotten the victory over the beast, And over his image, And over his mark, And over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Why were they on this sea of glass? Because they could not enter the temple in heaven. Why? Because the temple was full of smoke from the glory of God and His power. Once God had finished pouring out His wrath on the earth then the temple is opened so the saints can go in. This you will notice from the below verses.

Revelation 15:5-8
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Now that the saints are able to enter heaven they are given thrones to reign from with the Lamb. But these thrones they reign from for one thousand years. This is the millennial reign from Jerusalem. For they return to the earth with the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7,8
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord gathers His bride and the martyred saints and returns to the earth to destroy the wicked.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

So the Lord returns with the saints He detroys the wicked with the ord that proceeds out of His mouth and He reigns with the saints from Jerusalem. The Lord regenerates the earth to its former glory and begins His millennial reign.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

During the time of the regeneration of the earth a person that lives to be one hundred yes of age is considered to be a child.

Isaiah 65:20,21
“ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

We know this is the earth where the Lord and the saints are reigning from, as we look and read this verse it tells us there is death still accuring. In the new Heaven, the new earth and new Jerusalem there is no death or sorrow no one grows old and there are no sinners. But whilst in Isaiah 65 God tells His people He will retsore the earth He also tells them He will create a new heaven, new earth and a new Jerusalem but enjoy what I create now.

Isaiah 65:17,18
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4)
And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousand years.

After regenerating the earth we shall reign with the Lord and the Israelites once again shall become priests to the nations fore they will lead the nations to their God.

Zechariah 8:23
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Firstfruits
Nov 29th 2007, 11:22 AM
FF, I believe that all of those Scriptures refer to the same group as Revelation 20:4.

Jesus reigns bodily now in heaven over His kingdom.

He now has all power, all authority, in heaven and in earth.

Jesus reigns spiritually on earth today through His body, the Church.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

When God saves us, we have part in the first resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and we are translated spiritually into His heavenly kingdom.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


When we have part in Christ's resurrection, we are made alive spiritually and yet live even when we die physically, as we see the case in Revelation 20:4 with those who have died. I believe that the "thousand years" is symbolic of the period of time from the time of the ascension of Christ until His Second Coming.


Shriley

Thanks Shirley

Just one or two points I would like you to clarify. If the thousand years is symbolic does that also mean that satan being bound for a thousand years, where he cannot tempt anyone until the thousand years is complete, does that not mean that we are not being tempted of the devil and cannot be until Christ returns as they happen at the same time?

Also after the thousand years are over is the final resurrection and judgment, again is this not to be?

FF

Firstfruits
Nov 29th 2007, 11:27 AM
Hi Firstfruits,
Let's put this in order according to what the scriptures say.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

As we look at the above verse we must remember that the earth is going through tribulation at this point. These saints under the alter are asking God to avenge their blood that had been spilt, they where martyred saints who have already come out of the tribulation. God informes them they must wait until their fellow servants and brethren are killed the same way as them. So they wait patiently for their fellow servants and brethren who are martyrd just as they were.

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These before the throne are those who have come out from under the altar and the rest of their fellow servants who had been martyred in the Great Tribulation and they all stand together before the throne.

Revelation 8:1-5
1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

The only thing mentioned about the saints in these verses are that an angle is taking a golden censer and he was given incense and offered the incense with the prayers of the saints and it became an offering on the golden altar before the throne. The aroma of the incense and the prayers of the saints ascended before God. Then the angel took the same censer and threw it to the erath, which caused more devestation on the earth.

Revelation 13:14,15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

These are those souls you see under the altar and then before the throne, they were martyred because they would not bow down to the beast or his image.


Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2)
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: And them that had gotten the victory over the beast, And over his image, And over his mark, And over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Why were they on this sea of glass? Because they could not enter the temple in heaven. Why? Because the temple was full of smoke from the glory of God and His power. Once God had finished pouring out His wrath on the earth then the temple is opened so the saints can go in. This you will notice from the below verses.

Revelation 15:5-8
5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Now that the saints are able to enter heaven they are given thrones to reign from with the Lamb. But these thrones they reign from for one thousand years. This is the millennial reign from Jerusalem. For they return to the earth with the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7,8
Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Lord gathers His bride and the martyred saints and returns to the earth to destroy the wicked.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Zechariah 14:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

So the Lord returns with the saints He detroys the wicked with the ord that proceeds out of His mouth and He reigns with the saints from Jerusalem. The Lord regenerates the earth to its former glory and begins His millennial reign.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

During the time of the regeneration of the earth a person that lives to be one hundred yes of age is considered to be a child.

Isaiah 65:20,21
“ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

We know this is the earth where the Lord and the saints are reigning from, as we look and read this verse it tells us there is death still accuring. In the new Heaven, the new earth and new Jerusalem there is no death or sorrow no one grows old and there are no sinners. But whilst in Isaiah 65 God tells His people He will retsore the earth He also tells them He will create a new heaven, new earth and a new Jerusalem but enjoy what I create now.

Isaiah 65:17,18
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4)
And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousand years.

After regenerating the earth we shall reign with the Lord and the Israelites once again shall become priests to the nations fore they will lead the nations to their God.

Zechariah 8:23
23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Are there any scriptures that state that once the have been seen in heaven that they then are taken away from before the throne of God, to dwell upon this earth and not remain in heaven?

ShirleyFord
Nov 29th 2007, 02:38 PM
Thanks Shirley

Just one or two points I would like you to clarify. If the thousand years is symbolic does that also mean that satan being bound for a thousand years, where he cannot tempt anyone until the thousand years is complete, does that not mean that we are not being tempted of the devil and cannot be until Christ returns as they happen at the same time?

FF, the purpose of the binding of Satan by Jesus at Calvary was not to prevent him from tempting anyone or to render him helpless. The purpose of Satan's binding was for the purpose of getting the gospel out to the nations, the Gentiles, who had sat in darkness without hope as they were in absolute deception of the devil being bound by the devil.

Rev. 20:3 " ...that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled..."



Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Paul relates to King Agrippa how the Lord called him:




Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.





Also after the thousand years are over is the final resurrection and judgment, again is this not to be?

FF


Our spiritual resurrection at the time we are saved occurs before we die and before the Second Coming of Christ. Our final resurrection, our eternal physical resurrection and the general judgement before the throne of God is at the Second Coming of Christ.


Shirley

jewel4Christ
Nov 29th 2007, 04:39 PM
Good post, Shirley.

That is how I view it, too.

I do however see a huge "darkness" once again, before the Lord comes, through the "at the end of the thousand years, he shall be loosed, to go out to deceive the nations once again".

I beleive this is done through the apostacy, that was even already at work in it's beginnings in the days of Paul, as the mystery of iniquity, that we read of..and, now, in our day it has so influenced the "church" through "religion" that now, it is hard to even know what the true gospel is anymore....accept of course, through prayer and sincere seeking.


The gospel has been masked, in other words, by the leavening of the pharasee's.

That is why Jesus warned of that to occur to begin with.

That leavening is so thick these days, that is it is very hard to get to even the very MILK of the word.


I believe that the event that we call "satan loosed" has already occurred....and, we now stand at the very door of Jesus return, wherein He will put an end to it once and for all.


Just my thoughts....;)


janet

ShirleyFord
Nov 29th 2007, 06:30 PM
Janet,

The time of Satan's loosening is after the thousand years have expired. I don't believe the millennium has expired yet.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


I believe that this is Satan's little season, His final tribulation of wrath on the true Church just before the Second Coming of Christ.

I also believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 is speaking about that same time.

Ltanner09
Nov 29th 2007, 06:57 PM
Janet,

The time of Satan's loosening is after the thousand years have expired. I don't believe the millennium has expired yet.

Hi Shirley, been in lurk mode for about 9 months.:kiss:

It appears REV 20 is speaking to different "thousand years", one pertaining to the saints reigning with Christ "a thousand years" and one where Satan is bound "a thousand years".

I don't believe scripture teaches that our reign with Christ ever expires, unless it occurs at the 2nd coming when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father (1 COR 15: 23-26), but the time Satan is bound in the pit does expire.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Satan is loosed and gathers an army that encompasses the camp of the saints, who are either still reigning with Christ or they're not.

The "thousand years ( long time)" that the saints reign with Christ must be a different time period in length than the "thousand years" Satan is bound.

ShirleyFord
Nov 29th 2007, 09:38 PM
Hi Shirley, been in lurk mode for about 9 months.:kiss:

It appears REV 20 is speaking to different "thousand years", one pertaining to the saints reigning with Christ "a thousand years" and one where Satan is bound "a thousand years".

I don't believe scripture teaches that our reign with Christ ever expires, unless it occurs at the 2nd coming when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father (1 COR 15: 23-26), but the time Satan is bound in the pit does expire.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Satan is loosed and gathers an army that encompasses the camp of the saints, who are either still reigning with Christ or they're not.

The "thousand years ( long time)" that the saints reign with Christ must be a different time period in length than the "thousand years" Satan is bound.

Hi Len,

Great to see you brother! :pp

You are correct. Christ's reign and our reign with Him is everlasting. It will never end.

The "thousand years" in Revelation 20:1-7 is limited to Satan's binding and not with the reign of Christ or our reign with Him.

Jesus reigns over His kingdom and we who are in Christ reign with Him during the "thousand yrs." symbolic period.

And Jesus still reigns during Satan's little season after he is loosed. And we will still be reigning with Jesus during that "little season" even in physical death.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


These are the same ones we find in the latter part of Revelation 20:4:

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."


Shirley

jewel4Christ
Nov 29th 2007, 09:58 PM
Janet,

The time of Satan's loosening is after the thousand years have expired. I don't believe the millennium has expired yet.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


I believe that this is Satan's little season, His final tribulation of wrath on the true Church just before the Second Coming of Christ.

I also believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 is speaking about that same time.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1455272)

Hi Shirley, I also believe that this symbolic time period that we call the "mill" has no end, too...(for those whom are truly in Christ), that is....those whom have entered the eternal rest of the Lord....time has already ceased for them. Time as we humans keep time, that is.

As I see it, satan has always been around trying to pervert the gospel of Christ, and that began even in the first century. As I see it, that gospel is really twisted already now...to the point where the very blood of Christ is being denied. This is the final apostacy, as I see it....and, it relates to the timeframe of him really being loosed, and all we now await is the furtherance of him going about leading this world to destruction, which I also believe is right around the corner.

The "frogs" that lead mankind to destruction, by gathering all nations together for armagheddon has already began as I see it...this world is about to reap what it has sowed.

This will culminate in the coming of the Lord, thank God.

At which time, we will still be reigning with Him, for even as His reign has no end, niether does that which we have already began, if we are truly in Him...but, satan's time is short, knowing that he has but a little time left.

I don't necessarily look for a literal man of sin...sitting in a stone temple, for I don't see that as the fulfillment, but evil men have been entering the true temple of God for a long time, proclaiming themselves as god, as they exalt their fleshly doctrines.


peaceandlove,


janet

IBWatching
Nov 29th 2007, 10:22 PM
Hi Shirley, been in lurk mode for about 9 months.:kiss: ...

Gee, Lt. You and Shirley close are you? This helps me bunches, since I already know your theology. ;)

DIZZY
Nov 30th 2007, 07:16 AM
Are there any scriptures that state that once the have been seen in heaven that they then are taken away from before the throne of God, to dwell upon this earth and not remain in heaven?

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

We must remember we are reigning with the Lord over Israel and the nations that remain after the tribulation. In heaven we do not reign over Israel we reign with the Lord and Israel from the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:12-14
12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

We serve the Lord and reign with Him from the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

I hope these verses help
May God bless all His dear children


Revelation 19:7,8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.


Revelation 19:11-16
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

These armies are made up of the bride and the tribulation saints. Together they follow the Lord back to the earth. I MUST STIPULATE THAT THEY DO NOT FIGHT IN THE BATTLE IT IS THE SWORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE LORD'S MOUTH THE STRIKES DOWN THE WICKED. (PS I am not yelling at you here.)

DIZZY
Nov 30th 2007, 07:24 AM
Thanks Shirley

Just one or two points I would like you to clarify. If the thousand years is symbolic does that also mean that satan being bound for a thousand years, where he cannot tempt anyone until the thousand years is complete, does that not mean that we are not being tempted of the devil and cannot be until Christ returns as they happen at the same time?

Also after the thousand years are over is the final resurrection and judgment, again is this not to be?

FF

Hi FF,
I hope you don't mind if I say something here. Even though Satan is bound for the thousand years it is mans will that he turns against God. We can't say the devil made me do it. They have a choice to follow the Lord or to disobey. Even with Satan bound there are those who will reject the Lord as King.

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2007, 11:57 AM
FF, the purpose of the binding of Satan by Jesus at Calvary was not to prevent him from tempting anyone or to render him helpless. The purpose of Satan's binding was for the purpose of getting the gospel out to the nations, the Gentiles, who had sat in darkness without hope as they were in absolute deception of the devil being bound by the devil.

Rev. 20:3 " ...that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled..."



Matt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Paul relates to King Agrippa how the Lord called him:




Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.







Our spiritual resurrection at the time we are saved occurs before we die and before the Second Coming of Christ. Our final resurrection, our eternal physical resurrection and the general judgement before the throne of God is at the Second Coming of Christ.


Shirley

With regard to the following when the thousand year begins satan cannot deceive until the thousand years are fulfilled;
Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Remember also that when he is released he has a job to do.

Revelation 20:7,8.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

As we can see this is quite specific, and takes place after the antichrist has done what is needed for those in the first resurrection to be be able to reign with Christ.

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2007, 12:03 PM
Hi FF,
I hope you don't mind if I say something here. Even though Satan is bound for the thousand years it is mans will that he turns against God. We can't say the devil made me do it. They have a choice to follow the Lord or to disobey. Even with Satan bound there are those who will reject the Lord as King.

That is correct, but it still stands that during the thousand year period he cannot deceive anyone or cause them to turn against God, until it is fulfilled.

Firstfruits
Nov 30th 2007, 12:11 PM
Good post, Shirley.

That is how I view it, too.

I do however see a huge "darkness" once again, before the Lord comes, through the "at the end of the thousand years, he shall be loosed, to go out to deceive the nations once again".

I beleive this is done through the apostacy, that was even already at work in it's beginnings in the days of Paul, as the mystery of iniquity, that we read of..and, now, in our day it has so influenced the "church" through "religion" that now, it is hard to even know what the true gospel is anymore....accept of course, through prayer and sincere seeking.


The gospel has been masked, in other words, by the leavening of the pharasee's.

That is why Jesus warned of that to occur to begin with.

That leavening is so thick these days, that is it is very hard to get to even the very MILK of the word.


I believe that the event that we call "satan loosed" has already occurred....and, we now stand at the very door of Jesus return, wherein He will put an end to it once and for all.


Just my thoughts....;)


janet


If satan has already been released, then the millenium reign is finished, according to that which is written.

Revelation 20:6-8
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

So are you saying we have missed the millenium reign with Christ?

ShirleyFord
Nov 30th 2007, 02:10 PM
That is correct, but it still stands that during the thousand year period he cannot deceive anyone or cause them to turn against God, until it is fulfilled.

Rev. 20;3 "...that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


Who are "the nations"?

The Gentiles, those who are not Jews or Israelites.

Is 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

Matthew 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;


See how "nations" are changed to "Gentiles".


Before Stephen's death in Acts 7, the gospel for the most part stayed within the borders of the nation of Israel among God's people the Israelites. The Gentiles were bound by the devil in his deception and sat in darkness. The gospel message didn't go out to them with the exception of a handful of people in the OT and the one Gentile city of Ninevah.

Notice where Jesus sent the 12 disciples to proclaim the gospel:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It was only after Jesus had bound the devil at Calvary that he no longer could keep the Gentiles deceived and bound in darkness away from the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Peter first took the gospel to the Gentiles, to the Roman centurion, Cornelius and his house.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


So Jesus bound the devil so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, the nations, and he could no longer keep them from hearing the gospel and believing it and turning to Jesus Christ as their God, Lord and Savior.


So during this period of the thousand years that I strongly believe that we are in now, the gospel is freely going out to the nations, the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews.


Shirley

John146
Nov 30th 2007, 06:22 PM
Hi Shirley, been in lurk mode for about 9 months.:kiss:

It appears REV 20 is speaking to different "thousand years", one pertaining to the saints reigning with Christ "a thousand years" and one where Satan is bound "a thousand years".

I don't believe scripture teaches that our reign with Christ ever expires, unless it occurs at the 2nd coming when the kingdom is delivered up to the Father (1 COR 15: 23-26), but the time Satan is bound in the pit does expire.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Satan is loosed and gathers an army that encompasses the camp of the saints, who are either still reigning with Christ or they're not.

The "thousand years ( long time)" that the saints reign with Christ must be a different time period in length than the "thousand years" Satan is bound.

I completely disagree. There is only one "thousand years" time period in view in Revelation 20. After Christ's death and resurrection, Satan was bound from deceiving the nations as he did in Old Testament times. The saints have reigned with Christ ever since the Holy Spirit came in power at Pentecost. I understand how you come to your conclusion regarding separate time periods, but nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say that the saints stop reigning with Christ after the thousand years. It only says that Satan is loosed after the thousand years. The saints continue reigning with Christ, but Satan is loosed and allowed to deceive the nations as he did before Christ came the first time. Before Christ came, the nations were in complete spiritual darkness. Scripture does not speak of any period of time where Christians reign with Christ and then they don't reign with Christ for a time and then they later reign with Him for eternity. If there is more than one "thousand years" time period referenced in Revelation 20 then when do you believe each time period takes place relative to the second coming of Christ?

DIZZY
Nov 30th 2007, 07:29 PM
That is correct, but it still stands that during the thousand year period he cannot deceive anyone or cause them to turn against God, until it is fulfilled.

Hi FF,
That's correct. He does not interact with man during the 1000yr reign, so people can't use him as their excuse for their disobedience. And they can't blame Satans helpers either because they have been cast into hells fire...

Ltanner09
Nov 30th 2007, 07:34 PM
I understand how you come to your conclusion regarding separate time periods, but nowhere in Revelation 20 does it say that the saints stop reigning with Christ after the thousand years

J146, I agree the saints never stop reigning with Christ. That would mean the "thousand years" they reign never expires.

On the other hand the "thousand years" that Satan is bound does expire.

That is what I meant when I stated the "thousand years" has a dual application.

Janet had commented that she believed Satan is already loosed (post #7).

Shirley replied (post #8) that she believed he hasn't been loosed as the millennium hadn't expired.

Maybe I misunderstood Shirley's post. The only time the "thousand years" expires pertains to Satan being bound, not the reign with Christ.

jewel4Christ
Dec 1st 2007, 03:37 AM
Ltanner,

oops, double post....look below, one more time...hehehe....

jewel4Christ
Dec 1st 2007, 03:41 AM
Ltanner,

I simply believe that even when satan is loosed or bound that it has no part on God's elect, whom through the very power of God are kept.....through what I can only call "God's eternal promise".

...by faith.

Even if we go astray for a time, if we were ever saved to begin with.....God is able to bring us back to a right understanding, and, even though satan was loosed, and able to deceive us for a time, God is all powerful, and able to correct His own.

In this way, yes....I do believe we can be "elect" and at the same time, for a time, be "outside" of His will.

The whole purpose of God is to make sure that all His people come to a complete fulfillment of their calling, but sometimes not due to HIM, but our own will, which is working after our flesh, we can get side tracked and for a time, go backwards...as we see so many times parables of this in His word.

Does that mean we won't come out of it?

NO...He is able to correct us...and, He does, so often by allowing us to each reap what we sowed, and having learned the hard way, we then come back to Him, as the prodical son also did.....what does this have to do with your post? I dunno.....:dunno:maybe nothing, maybe everything???

peaceandlove,


janet

Ltanner09
Dec 1st 2007, 04:04 AM
Janet, The point I was trying to get across was that Satan would be loosed during Christ's reign with his saints....that our reign with Him is ongoing before, during and after Satan is loosed.

Shirley had mentioned that Satan can't be loosed now because the millennium hasn't expired. I may have read too much into her post, but the millennium is inclusive of Satan being loosed and culminates when all evil is cast into the LOF, when Jesus then delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

DIZZY
Dec 1st 2007, 06:41 AM
Janet, The point I was trying to get across was that Satan would be loosed during Christ's reign with his saints....that our reign with Him is ongoing before, during and after Satan is loosed.

Shirley had mentioned that Satan can't be loosed now because the millennium hasn't expired. I may have read too much into her post, but the millennium is inclusive of Satan being loosed and culminates when all evil is cast into the LOF, when Jesus then delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

Hi Ltanner09,
There is only one thousand yr period where Satan is bound and while he is bound the bride, the tribulation saints and the old testament Jews reign with Christ during this millennial period.

The reason you don't hear the end of the kingdom reign is because the kingdom of God is never ending. The earthly reign will end with the destruction of the earth and all that is in it. But the Lords kingdom is spiritual and it is handed over to the Father where He will judge the dead and punish them for their unbelief and disobedienc in the eternal lake of fire where Satan and his demon hord have already been cast.

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2007, 12:23 PM
Rev. 20;3 "...that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


Who are "the nations"?

The Gentiles, those who are not Jews or Israelites.

Is 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

Matthew 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;


See how "nations" are changed to "Gentiles".


Before Stephen's death in Acts 7, the gospel for the most part stayed within the borders of the nation of Israel among God's people the Israelites. The Gentiles were bound by the devil in his deception and sat in darkness. The gospel message didn't go out to them with the exception of a handful of people in the OT and the one Gentile city of Ninevah.

Notice where Jesus sent the 12 disciples to proclaim the gospel:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It was only after Jesus had bound the devil at Calvary that he no longer could keep the Gentiles deceived and bound in darkness away from the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Peter first took the gospel to the Gentiles, to the Roman centurion, Cornelius and his house.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


So Jesus bound the devil so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, the nations, and he could no longer keep them from hearing the gospel and believing it and turning to Jesus Christ as their God, Lord and Savior.


So during this period of the thousand years that I strongly believe that we are in now, the gospel is freely going out to the nations, the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews.


Shirley

That being the case, that means that no nation, Jew or gentile is being tempted or deceived by satan. Would you agree?

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2007, 12:30 PM
Hi FF,
That's correct. He does not interact with man during the 1000yr reign, so people can't use him as their excuse for their disobedience. And they can't blame Satans helpers either because they have been cast into hells fire...

Would you agree that because of those that are in the group that reigns with Christ due to the antichrist, that this takes place after the Revelation 13:14,15 has been fulfulled?

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2007, 12:34 PM
J146, I agree the saints never stop reigning with Christ. That would mean the "thousand years" they reign never expires.

On the other hand the "thousand years" that Satan is bound does expire.

That is what I meant when I stated the "thousand years" has a dual application.

Janet had commented that she believed Satan is already loosed (post #7).

Shirley replied (post #8) that she believed he hasn't been loosed as the millennium hadn't expired.

Maybe I misunderstood Shirley's post. The only time the "thousand years" expires pertains to Satan being bound, not the reign with Christ.

It is not that the reign with Christ ends, it is just that after a thousand years when satan is released, that Jesus has work that needs to be completed so that all can be fulfilled.

Firstfruits
Dec 1st 2007, 12:40 PM
Janet, The point I was trying to get across was that Satan would be loosed during Christ's reign with his saints....that our reign with Him is ongoing before, during and after Satan is loosed.

Shirley had mentioned that Satan can't be loosed now because the millennium hasn't expired. I may have read too much into her post, but the millennium is inclusive of Satan being loosed and culminates when all evil is cast into the LOF, when Jesus then delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

According to what is written satan cannot be released to decieve the nation until after the millenium is complete, not in between.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Firstfruits
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:31 PM
According to John 18:36 Christs kingdom is not of this world, so how can he reign from that which he has said is not his? ie Jerusalem on this earth.

Kahtar
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:04 PM
According to John 18:36 Christs kingdom is not of this world, so how can he reign from that which he has said is not his? ie Jerusalem on this earth.
(Matthew 5:34-35) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

(1 Corinthians 10:26) For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

(Colossians 1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(2 Peter 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(Revelation 5:10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(Revelation 21:1-3) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

(Revelation 21:22-24) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Firstfruits
Dec 3rd 2007, 09:41 AM
(Matthew 5:34-35) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

(1 Corinthians 10:26) For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

(Colossians 1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(2 Peter 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(Revelation 5:10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(Revelation 21:1-3) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

(Revelation 21:22-24) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

From the scriptures you have used, would I be right in saying that the millenium reign in the kingdom of Christ is in the New Jerusalem?

Firstfruits
Dec 3rd 2007, 09:46 AM
I hope the following scriptures will be helpful.

Jn 8:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: And the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces And consume all these kingdoms, And it shall stAnd for ever.


Mt 5:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Mt 5:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jn 14:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jn 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Mic 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=33&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And I will make her that halted a remnant, And her that was cast far off a strong nation: And the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Kahtar
Dec 3rd 2007, 01:48 PM
From the scriptures you have used, would I be right in saying that the millenium reign in the kingdom of Christ is in the New Jerusalem?
Yes, He will rule FROM the New Jerusalem. But as was seen, new Jerusalem descends to the new earth. And His kingdom will not JUST be New Jerusalem, but the entire earth, and indeed the entire universe. There will not be anywhere that is not in His Kingdom, except perhaps the lake of fire.

Firstfruits
Dec 3rd 2007, 02:37 PM
Yes, He will rule FROM the New Jerusalem. But as was seen, new Jerusalem descends to the new earth. And His kingdom will not JUST be New Jerusalem, but the entire earth, and indeed the entire universe. There will not be anywhere that is not in His Kingdom, except perhaps the lake of fire.

All agreed, thanks.

Kahtar
Dec 3rd 2007, 02:43 PM
All agreed, thanks.
:eek: My friend, I think this is a first! We agree on something!!!





:rofl:God bless.................

Firstfruits
Dec 3rd 2007, 02:45 PM
Yes, He will rule FROM the New Jerusalem. But as was seen, new Jerusalem descends to the new earth. And His kingdom will not JUST be New Jerusalem, but the entire earth, and indeed the entire universe. There will not be anywhere that is not in His Kingdom, except perhaps the lake of fire.

All agreed, thanks.

DIZZY
Dec 4th 2007, 12:03 PM
Hi FF,
That's correct. He does not interact with man during the 1000yr reign, so people can't use him as their excuse for their disobedience. And they can't blame Satans helpers either because they have been cast into hells fire...



Would you agree that because of those that are in the group that reigns with Christ due to the antichrist, that this takes place after the Revelation 13:14,15 has been fulfulled?

If you are saying that Satan is bound for the thousand years after Revelation 13:14,15 has accured, yes I would agree. Satan is bound after Rev 13:14,15.

DIZZY
Dec 4th 2007, 12:06 PM
(Matthew 5:34-35) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

(1 Corinthians 10:26) For the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

(Colossians 1:16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(2 Peter 3:13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(Revelation 5:10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(Revelation 21:1-3) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

(Revelation 21:22-24) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

I notice you have no Old Testament verses here that speak of the Lord rebuilding Jerusalem and reigning from there. How come?

Firstfruits
Dec 4th 2007, 12:17 PM
:eek: My friend, I think this is a first! We agree on something!!!





:rofl:God bless.................


Hi kahtar

I hope we will continue to persue the truth through the word of God that we may agree according to that which is written.

Thanks again,

Firstfruits

ShirleyFord
Dec 4th 2007, 01:03 PM
That being the case, that means that no nation, Jew or gentile is being tempted or deceived by satan. Would you agree?

No, that is not what Rev. 20:1-3 says.

Jesus bound the devil so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, the nations, and he could no longer keep them from hearing the gospel and believing it and turning to Jesus Christ as their God, Lord and Savior.


So during this period of the thousand years that I strongly believe that we are in now, the gospel is freely going out to the nations, the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews.

Those who believe that Satan is bound after the Second Coming of Christ teach that during the millennium that people will still be tempted and deceived and disobey Christ and sin against Him with Satan bound with a long chain and cast into the bottomless pit and the door looked behind him and a seal placed on the bottomless pit so Satan can't get out. They teach that disobedience, sin and death will still exist in the millennium then. So the conditions during that millennial kingdom will be pretty much like today.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Dec 4th 2007, 01:14 PM
No, that is not what Rev. 20:1-3 says.

Jesus bound the devil so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, the nations, and he could no longer keep them from hearing the gospel and believing it and turning to Jesus Christ as their God, Lord and Savior.


So during this period of the thousand years that I strongly believe that we are in now, the gospel is freely going out to the nations, the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews.

Those who believe that Satan is bound after the Second Coming of Christ teach that during the millennium that people will still be tempted and deceived and disobey Christ and sin against Him with Satan bound with a long chain and cast into the bottomless pit and the door looked behind him and a seal placed on the bottomless pit so Satan can't get out. They teach that disobedience, sin and death will still exist in the millennium then. So the conditions during that millennial kingdom will be pretty much like today.


Shirley

The according to what is written satan is bound before the second coming of Christ.

Rev 20:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

With the understanding that Christ has not yet returned, if we are in the thousand year period, then who is deceiveng the nations at this time, has the reign of the beast begun, or the antichrist been revealed, or is it satan?

third hero
Dec 4th 2007, 06:28 PM
No, that is not what Rev. 20:1-3 says.

Jesus bound the devil so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles, the nations, and he could no longer keep them from hearing the gospel and believing it and turning to Jesus Christ as their God, Lord and Savior.


So during this period of the thousand years that I strongly believe that we are in now, the gospel is freely going out to the nations, the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews.

Those who believe that Satan is bound after the Second Coming of Christ teach that during the millennium that people will still be tempted and deceived and disobey Christ and sin against Him with Satan bound with a long chain and cast into the bottomless pit and the door looked behind him and a seal placed on the bottomless pit so Satan can't get out. They teach that disobedience, sin and death will still exist in the millennium then. So the conditions during that millennial kingdom will be pretty much like today.


Shirley

Wrong again, Shirley. The gospel is not even mentioned at all in Revelation 20 except for those who have obeyed it to the death in verse 4. It says that Satan is bound and sealed away from the nations, which means that he would, during that time of imprisonment, would have no contact with the nations of the earth. The spreading of the Gospel was not mentioned, or referenced to in that entire chapter.

third hero
Dec 4th 2007, 06:35 PM
Now to answer the OP question. The Millennium, is it the reign of New Jerusalem, or is it God reigning for Jerusalem?

My answer is B. The OT has specific prophecies concerning the one known as "the Son of God" ruling over the entire earth, from Jerusalem, on top of David's throne. The concept of New Jerusalem was not implied until Christ mentioned that His Kingdom is not of this world. It was not realized until John mentions it in Revelation 21, which descends from the heavens AFTER the Millennium of Satan's imprisonment and AFTER Judgment Day, where everything and everyone wicked are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Here are some scriptures for you to preuse.

Psalm 2 (the whole chapter)
Zechariah 14
Isaiah 65
Daniel 7
Hosea 3
Ezekiel 39

All of them, especially Zechariah 14, mention the Son of God, whether He is called the Son of God, DAvdid the King, my servant David, or the Son of Man, ruling the entire world from Jerusalem.

Therefore, it is my belief that the Lord will have His promise fulfilled when the Lord returns and destroys the armies of this world and takes over it from Jerusalem. This is called by most the Millennium, but I call it, the Davidic Kingdom, honoring the fact that the Lord will fulfill His promise to David through Lord Jesus.

Marjiealm
Dec 4th 2007, 09:07 PM
We are not in the Millenial Era. The Third Temple needs to be built, and this is to happen before the final 3 1/2 years before the Lord's Great Day. Also, there has to be another war (6th Trumpet War) along the rivers Euphrates that kills a third of mankind. This war will destroy Damascus. There are still prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled and the main one is the Gog/Magog War (Battle of Armaggedon.) This is when satan and the false prophet is thrown alive into the "Lake of Fire" for one thousand years ... (This is the Millenium Reign.)

Marjiealm
Dec 4th 2007, 09:23 PM
Also, when Satan is loosed, he will then again do his best to corrupt the world ... until he is destroyed forever.

DIZZY
Dec 5th 2007, 05:47 AM
The according to what is written satan is bound before the second coming of Christ.

Rev 20:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season

With the understanding that Christ has not yet returned, if we are in the thousand year period, then who is deceiveng the nations at this time, has the reign of the beast begun, or the antichrist been revealed, or is it satan?

I think you will find that Satan is bound at the same time as Christ's coming. The thousan year reign and satans thoiusand year imprisonmnt starts at the same time. Plus we don't need Satan to deceive us into sinning against God, we do a pretty good job of that ourselves. Can't say the devil made me do it sorry it doesn't work that way.

Firstfruits
Dec 5th 2007, 08:57 AM
I think you will find that Satan is bound at the same time as Christ's coming. The thousan year reign and satans thoiusand year imprisonmnt starts at the same time. Plus we don't need Satan to deceive us into sinning against God, we do a pretty good job of that ourselves. Can't say the devil made me do it sorry it doesn't work that way.

Are you saying that Christs return is at the the thousand year reign? if so that would mean that he would have to come again after the millenium for the last resurrection and judgement day.

Are there two comings of Christ?

Thanks Dizzy

Firstfruits

DIZZY
Dec 5th 2007, 11:16 AM
Are you saying that Christs return is at the the thousand year reign? if so that would mean that he would have to come again after the millenium for the last resurrection and judgement day.

Are there two comings of Christ?

Thanks Dizzy

Firstfruits

Why would Christ have to come three times, the last resurrection, which is the resurrection of the dead, (being those who did not believe in Christ) and the great white throne of judgment are before God in heaven I thought. So if they are before the throne of God why does the Lord need to return to the earth.

At the end of the millennium the earth is destroyed it won't be there for the Lord to return to. Satan is cast into the eternal lake of fire. Then you have the great white throne judgment which is the second death and the sea gives up its dead and death and hades give up their dead and they are all cast into the lake of fire aswell where they join Satan and his demon hoards. There is no need for the Lord to return to the earth a third time.

After the throne judgment you have the new heaven and new earth created and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to join them, this is the end and we all live happily ever after reigning with our Lord and the Israelites from the new Jerusalem.

Firstfruits
Dec 5th 2007, 02:41 PM
Why would Christ have to come three times, the last resurrection, which is the resurrection of the dead, (being those who did not believe in Christ) and the great white throne of judgment are before God in heaven I thought. So if they are before the throne of God why does the Lord need to return to the earth.

At the end of the millennium the earth is destroyed it won't be there for the Lord to return to. Satan is cast into the eternal lake of fire. Then you have the great white throne judgment which is the second death and the sea gives up its dead and death and hades give up their dead and they are all cast into the lake of fire aswell where they join Satan and his demon hoards. There is no need for the Lord to return to the earth a third time.

After the throne judgment you have the new heaven and new earth created and the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to join them, this is the end and we all live happily ever after reigning with our Lord and the Israelites from the new Jerusalem.

Are you saying that Christ comes at the begining or at the end of the millenium?

With the undersatanding that when Jesus returns it will be for the judgement, (the resurrection of the dead) this does not happen at the begining of the millenium reign according to the scriptures. After the millenium the earth is still here, in order for satan to do as it is written.

Revelation 20:7-15

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

DIZZY
Dec 6th 2007, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE]Are you saying that Christ comes at the begining or at the end of the millenium?

Christ returns at the beginning of the millennial reign, yes he brings judgment on the wicked but not that of the great white throne judgment.

The judgment the Lord brings when He returns after the tribulation period is different than the great white throne judgment. Christ returns and casts the wicked into hades pending the great white throne judgment. They are cast into outer darkness.



With the undersatanding that when Jesus returns it will be for the judgement, (the resurrection of the dead) this does not happen at the begining of the millenium reign according to the scriptures. After the millenium the earth is still here, in order for satan to do as it is written.

You are partially right the final judgment is after the millennial when the dead (those who do not believe in Christ) are resurrected and as you notice the sea gave up its dead and death and hades gave up there dead, then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. At the great white throne judgment is served out on those who were delivered up from the sea,death and hades, these souls receive there resurrected bodies and because they are not written in the book of life they to are thrown into the eternal lake of fire.


Revelation 20:7-15

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 aAnd the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is a type of judgment being cast into hades but not the final judgment.

Firstfruits
Dec 6th 2007, 12:31 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1461779]

Christ returns at the beginning of the millennial reign, yes he brings judgment on the wicked but not that of the great white throne judgment.

The judgment the Lord brings when He returns after the tribulation period is different than the great white throne judgment. Christ returns and casts the wicked into hades pending the great white throne judgment. They are cast into outer darkness.


You are partially right the final judgment is after the millennial when the dead (those who do not believe in Christ) are resurrected and as you notice the sea gave up its dead and death and hades gave up there dead, then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. At the great white throne judgment is served out on those who were delivered up from the sea,death and hades, these souls receive there resurrected bodies and because they are not written in the book of life they to are thrown into the eternal lake of fire.


Revelation 20:7-15

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 aAnd the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is a type of judgment being cast into hades but not the final judgment.

Which judgement is this scripture concerned with?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, And thy wrath is come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, And to the saints, And them that fear thy name, small And great; And shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And I saw the dead, small And great, stAnd before God; And the books were opened: And another book was opened, which is the book of life: And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

According to the scriptures, how many time does Christ come to judge, and to reward us according to our works?

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Tim 4:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

wpm
Dec 8th 2007, 11:23 PM
That is correct, but it still stands that during the thousand year period he cannot deceive anyone or cause them to turn against God, until it is fulfilled.

Why then does a growing amount of millennial inhabitants succumb to his lies and deceit during this period. The total of which must be billions (as the sand of the sea.) Sounds very like today.

Paul

Firstfruits
Dec 9th 2007, 12:10 PM
Why then does a growing amount of millennial inhabitants succumb to his lies and deceit during this period. The total of which must be billions (as the sand of the sea.) Sounds very like today.

Paul

According to what is written that is after the millenium.

Revelation 20:7,8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

wpm
Dec 10th 2007, 04:58 AM
According to what is written that is after the millenium.

Revelation 20:7,8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

These millennial goats do not change in a twinkling of an eye when Satan is released at the end. They are obviously agents of Satan that have overtaken the earth and are simply waiting for their Master to lead them into battle in the final end-time war against righteousness and truth. Their allegiance is clear. Their sinful corrupt natures (like ours) came at birth not when Satan raises his ugly head. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now - death, sin and wickedness.

You are not suggesting that these are the redeemed of God are you?

Paul

Firstfruits
Dec 10th 2007, 09:07 AM
These millennial goats do not change in a twinkling of an eye when Satan is released at the end. They are obviously agents of Satan that have overtaken the earth and are simply waiting for their Master to lead them into battle in the final end-time war against righteousness and truth. Their allegiance is clear. Their sinful corrupt natures (like ours) came at birth not when Satan raises his ugly head. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now - death, sin and wickedness.

You are not suggesting that these are the redeemed of God are you?

Paul

With regards to the following, the nations before the millenium are the same, and not satans agents that have taken over the earth.

Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the saints of God are still here, since it is their city that is compassed.

Alaska
Dec 10th 2007, 09:50 PM
Good post, Shirley.

That is how I view it, too.

I do however see a huge "darkness" once again, before the Lord comes, through the "at the end of the thousand years, he shall be loosed, to go out to deceive the nations once again".

I beleive this is done through the apostacy, that was even already at work in it's beginnings in the days of Paul, as the mystery of iniquity, that we read of..and, now, in our day it has so influenced the "church" through "religion" that now, it is hard to even know what the true gospel is anymore....accept of course, through prayer and sincere seeking.


The gospel has been masked, in other words, by the leavening of the pharasee's.

That is why Jesus warned of that to occur to begin with.

That leavening is so thick these days, that is it is very hard to get to even the very MILK of the word.


I believe that the event that we call "satan loosed" has already occurred....and, we now stand at the very door of Jesus return, wherein He will put an end to it once and for all.


Just my thoughts....;)



I agree that the 1000 years has to be symbolic to not contradict the milk of the word as clearly spoken on the end as per Mt. 24 etc.
However that doesn't mean that there isn't a better explanation of what 1000 years might mean in it's context of occurring after a major battle of Rev. 19, which battle has not seemed to have occurred yet.

The war of Gog and Magog seems to fit perfectly for the battle fought described in Ez. 38, 39. And it is understood that life goes on, on earth after that battle. The same as after Satan is bound in Rev. 20, life on the planet goes on.

There was a special day to be remembered in Joshua's time when the sun was commanded to stand still. The day of victory accomplished supernaturally for Israel by God against Gog and Magog will also be a very long day so to speak . A day when Satan is bound.("a thousand years as one day")

Those partaking of that special first resurrection (similar to the special resurrection that took place at Jesus' resurrection when many bodies of the saints arose and were seen of many) appear to include those who had been beheaded under the reign of the Beast, [Rev. 20:4 "not worshipped the beast"] which has not become manifest to the world yet, (the mark, etc.). So this event is yet to take place.

The one and only appearance in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory is when the translation occurs as per 1 Thess. 4. It is also at this appearing when the earth will be destroyed as per 2 Pet. 3.

This last literal day, in which the singular appearance of Jesus occurs, in the clouds, not on the earth, (and much greater resurrection than that first special one occurs), fits perfectly with Rev. 20:9-15 where we see Satan not just bound for a day ("1000 years") but this time forever sealed in the lake of fire never to escape but to be tormented forever and ever. This is where we also see the great white throne judgment that fits with His return as reflected in Matt. 25:31, "When the Son of man shall come...then shall he sit"... (to judge).

wpm
Dec 11th 2007, 12:49 AM
With regards to the following, the nations before the millenium are the same, and not satans agents that have taken over the earth.

Rev 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the saints of God are still here, since it is their city that is compassed.

Are you saying the wicked that surround the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium are righteous believers who turn away from Christ?

Paul

Firstfruits
Dec 11th 2007, 09:19 AM
Are you saying the wicked that surround the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium are righteous believers who turn away from Christ?

Paul

No I am not, but the propblem is that if the events of the gatherings for battle at armageddon and the gathering after the millenium are not the same, then where do the nations of the earth come from to deceived by satan?

DIZZY
Dec 11th 2007, 10:49 AM
No I am not, but the propblem is that if the events of the gatherings for battle at armageddon and the gathering after the millenium are not the same, then where do the nations of the earth come from to deceived by satan?

Hi Firstfruits,

The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.

So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.

Firstfruits
Dec 11th 2007, 11:56 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.

So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.

With the understanding that Christ returns once, and those that are alive and remain are gathered to be with the Lord for ever;
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Why would Christ leave behind some of those that are alive and remain (believers)?

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

wpm
Dec 12th 2007, 03:23 AM
Guys

Your millenium appears to be a re-run of the intra-Advent period. All the same sin, rebellion, death and decay that we see around us today continues and prospers in the Premil millennium.

Amils believe every vestige of the fall is finally removed at the appearing of Christ and His eternal kingdom. This earth will be regenerated by fire from the curse. That's why I believe Rev 20 relates to the here and now.

Here are 2 points:

(1) There are many Scriptures that tell us that the wicked (without exception) are destroyed at Christ's Coming. II Thessalonians 1:7-10 expressly says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

(2) The new earth cannot even be inhabited by flesh and blood, never mind sinful flesh and blood as you insist. 1 Corinthians 15:50 says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption”

These two clear truths in Scripture would seem to negate the Premil paradigm.

Paul

John146
Dec 12th 2007, 03:40 AM
Guys

Your millenium appears to be a re-run of the intra-Advent period. All the same sin, rebellion, death and decay that we see around us today continues and prospers in the Premil millennium.

Amils believe every vestige of the fall is finally removed at the appearing of Christ and His eternal kingdom. This earth will be regenerated by fire from the curse. That's why I believe Rev 20 relates to the here and now.

Here are 2 points:

(1) There are many Scriptures that tell us that the wicked (without exception) are destroyed at Christ's Coming. II Thessalonians 1:7-10 expressly says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

(2) The new earth cannot even be inhabited by flesh and blood, never mind sinful flesh and blood as you insist. 1 Corinthians 15:50 says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption”

These two clear truths in Scripture would seem to negate the Premil paradigm.

Paul

I agree, Paul. I would like any premil to explain to me how any unbeliever is excluded from "them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". This leaves no unbelieving survivors at Christ's return. Believers are all caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This leaves no mortal survivors at all on the earth for a supposed thousand year earthly reign of Christ after His return.

Eric

quiet dove
Dec 12th 2007, 04:14 AM
wpm
Your millenium appears to be a re-run of the intra-Advent period. All the same sin, rebellion, death and decay that we see around us today continues and prospers in the Premil millennium.

Amils believe every vestige of the fall is finally removed at the appearing of Christ and His eternal kingdom. This earth will be regenerated by fire from the curse. That's why I believe Rev 20 relates to the here and now.

Corinthians says the Kingdom of God, flesh and blood cannot inherit but at the same time you say we are the kingdom of God, we are flesh and blood so just how does that work? We are also the temple of God, same question. Plus, the Millennial reign of Christ here on earth is not the eternal Kingdom of God, two different kingdoms.

This hardly describes intra-Advent: Eze 36:24-38; Jer 23:5-8 (we know the Branch is Christ) Isaiah 62:1-12; Eze_28:24-26;

John146
Dec 12th 2007, 04:53 AM
Corinthians says the Kingdom of God, flesh and blood cannot inherit but at the same time you say we are the kingdom of God, we are flesh and blood so just how does that work? We are also the temple of God, same question. Plus, the Millennial reign of Christ here on earth is not the eternal Kingdom of God, two different kingdoms.

This hardly describes intra-Advent: Eze 36:24-38; Jer 23:5-8 (we know the Branch is Christ) Isaiah 62:1-12; Eze_28:24-26;

Our spirits enter into the kingdom of God when we are born again. Our flesh and blood will die, but our spirits will live on in the kingdom of God. Don't you believe that you are now in the kingdom of God spiritually?

Question for you: where does Scripture ever speak of more than one kingdom of God or Christ? From what I can see, it only speaks of one. That's why it's called simply the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven or kingdom of Christ because there is only one kingdom. And it is eternal. We are in that kingdom spiritually now and we are looking forward to being in His kingdom with incorruptible, immortal bodies when He returns. Scripture does not support the idea of any temporal earthly kingdom of Christ or God. It always speaks of the kingdom as being eternal. Jesus said that His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world. An earthly millennial kingdom would be of this world and would come with observation.

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. - Isaiah 9:6-7

quiet dove
Dec 12th 2007, 05:56 AM
Our spirits enter into the kingdom of God when we are born again. Our flesh and blood will die, but our spirits will live on in the kingdom of God. Don't you believe that you are now in the kingdom of God spiritually?

Yes I do, that was my point, if we are now part of the Kingdom of God, then those in the Millenium, though still in physical bodies can also be in the Kingdom of God. Just as we are citizens now, while still in the physical flesh, so will they be.



Question for you: where does Scripture ever speak of more than one kingdom of God or Christ? From what I can see, it only speaks of one. That's why it's called simply the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven or kingdom of Christ because there is only one kingdom. And it is eternal. We are in that kingdom spiritually now and we are looking forward to being in His kingdom with incorruptible, immortal bodies when He returns. Scripture does not support the idea of any temporal earthly kingdom of Christ or God. It always speaks of the kingdom as being eternal. Jesus said that His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world. An earthly millennial kingdom would be of this world and would come with observation.


The Millennial is the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with Christ ruling, not the eternal Kingdom of God, though as I said above, physical people will be citizens of that Kingdom just as we are still in the physical and yet citizens now. And I know we all consider Christ ruling now, He is to rule us, our lives, He will rule from Jerusalem, He will rule eternity. Thus, a Kingdom that never ends. Jesus was exulted over all, He will always remain over and above all things.

Within the context you are applying in your statement about the Millenial coming with observation, I think the New Heaven and Earth will be observable, therefore coming with observation. In Luke Christ told them the Kingdom was in there midst, among them.

Zec 4:6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

Surely the New Heaven and Earth will be observable, Revelations describes it for us.

John146
Dec 12th 2007, 06:14 AM
Yes I do, that was my point, if we are now part of the Kingdom of God, then those in the Millenium, though still in physical bodies can also be in the Kingdom of God. Just as we are citizens now, while still in the physical flesh, so will they be.



The Millennial is the restoration of the kingdom of Israel with Christ ruling, not the eternal Kingdom of God, though as I said above, physical people will be citizens of that Kingdom just as we are still in the physical and yet citizens now. And I know we all consider Christ ruling now, He is to rule us, our lives, He will rule from Jerusalem, He will rule eternity. Thus, a Kingdom that never ends. Jesus was exulted over all, He will always remain over and above all things.

Within the context you are applying in your statement about the Millenial coming with observation, I think the New Heaven and Earth will be observable, therefore coming with observation. In Luke Christ told them the Kingdom was in there midst, among them.

Zec 4:6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

Surely the New Heaven and Earth will be observable, Revelations describes it for us.


But the new heaven and new earth is the new heaven and new earth and not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be located on the new earth at that time after it comes down from heaven, but the kingdom of God is actually the New Jersualem, which is heavenly and spiritual and the place where the church dwells spiritually. Ephesians 2:6 says we dwell in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Obviously, we are not literally in heaven, but we are in a spiritual sense. Hebrews 12:18-23 tells us that we have not come to a mountain that can be touched but rather to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, which is the heavenly Jerusalem. If you read Ephesians 2 and compare to Revelation 21 you will see that the description of the church is very similar to the description of the New Jerusalem. The kingdom of God is still spiritual in nature even at that time when the new heavens and new earth appear. Also, where does Scripture speak of a temporary earthly "kingdom of Israel" that is ruled by Christ? I only see descriptions of Christ ruling His kingdom for eternity. If you say Revelation 20, then you should note that it says nothing about anyone reigning with Christ on earth. Instead, John sees souls reigning with Christ. That would have to be in heaven. Christ's kingdom is spiritual and heavenly and will never be earthly. He only has one kingdom and it will never end.

quiet dove
Dec 12th 2007, 06:45 AM
But the new heaven and new earth is the new heaven and new earth and not the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God will be located on the new earth at that time after it comes down from heaven, but the kingdom of God is actually the New Jersualem, which is heavenly and spiritual and the place where the church dwells spiritually.

We will have resurrected immortal bodies, Christ was able to be touched, eat. We won't be invisible souls floating about.:)


Ephesians 2:6 says we dwell in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Obviously, we are not literally in heaven, but we are in a spiritual sense. Hebrews 12:18-23 tells us that we have not come to a mountain that can be touched but rather to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, which is the heavenly Jerusalem. If you read Ephesians 2 and compare to Revelation 21 you will see that the description of the church is very similar to the description of the New Jerusalem. The kingdom of God is still spiritual in nature even at that time when the new heavens and new earth appear. The New Jerusalem will not be observable? it will be upon the New Earth, but not invisible?

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Spiritual doesn't necessarily mean invisible. It may not be visible to our eyes now, like trees and other physical things, but we know that man is capable of seeing spiritual creatures, there are instances of such in the Bible where people have seen angels. People saw Jesus after He was resurrected. We are not going to live in an invisible environment, Revelation makes that apparent.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.


Also, where does Scripture speak of a temporary earthly "kingdom of Israel" that is ruled by Christ? I only see descriptions of Christ ruling His kingdom for eternity. If you say Revelation 20, then you should note that it says nothing about anyone reigning with Christ on earth. Instead, John sees souls reigning with Christ. That would have to be in heaven. Christ's kingdom is spiritual and heavenly and will never be earthly. He only has one kingdom and it will never end.I already listed some scripture supporting the restoration of the kingdom of Israel.

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 08:46 AM
I am so sorry I am not in your time zone, everything seems to happen while I am asleep, o well, cannot be helped, Thanks for all the input from all.

Firtsfruits

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 01:47 PM
Can you find a clarify verse anywhere in the Bible saying both mortal people and immortal people shall dwell together on earth for one thousand years beyond second advent?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 03:36 PM
We will have resurrected immortal bodies, Christ was able to be touched, eat. We won't be invisible souls floating about.:)
The New Jerusalem will not be observable? it will be upon the New Earth, but not invisible?

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Spiritual doesn't necessarily mean invisible. It may not be visible to our eyes now, like trees and other physical things, but we know that man is capable of seeing spiritual creatures, there are instances of such in the Bible where people have seen angels. People saw Jesus after He was resurrected. We are not going to live in an invisible environment, Revelation makes that apparent.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
I already listed some scripture supporting the restoration of the kingdom of Israel.




With regards to the following we do not know what we shall be, but we shall be like Christ when he comes, as he was before he came to earth.

Phil 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall Be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall Be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor 15:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

2 Cor 4:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Cor 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Jn 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jn 1:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jn 4:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 04:31 PM
Firstfruits,

I want to make sure, Do you believe Jesus now have his literal new physical body at his resurrection?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 04:40 PM
Firstfruits,

I want to make sure, Do you believe Jesus now have his literal new physical body at his resurrection?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

If God glorified Christ as he was before he put on flesh, then he has returned to being a spirit.
Jn 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 Cor 15:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

quiet dove
Dec 12th 2007, 05:13 PM
With regards to the following we do not know what we shall be, but we shall be like Christ when he comes, as he was before he came to earth.


What we will be was not my point, my point is that He will be visible to us.

I understand that God is Spirit and we worship Him in spirit and truth, but we do that in physical, mortal, corruptible visible bodies now, no reason to think that throughout eternity we, and the kingdom will not be immortal, incorruptible and visible, observable, in the context of the discussion.

Joh 6:46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

That the Milllennial will be observable means it cannot happen is not a convincing argument to me. I do not see Luke 17:20 as supporting that thought.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 12th 2007, 05:17 PM
1 Cor. 15:50 is not discuss about 'body', it discuss about inncorruption - sins.

Christ came to earth as 100% real body. Christ died 100% real body. Christ buried with his 100% real body. Christ risen with his 100% real body. Christ shall come with his 100% real body.

Shortly after his resurrection, Christ shew his body to Thomas of John 20:27, Christ said to him, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and trust it into my side: and be not faithfless, but believing."

This verse proves us, Christ's 100% real body is risen. Christ already became the firstfruit of the resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:20. So, afterward, we are Christ's at His coming - 1 Cor. 15:23.

Yes, we shall become into glory new REAL body to be like Christ's.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Firstfruits
Dec 12th 2007, 07:55 PM
What we will be was not my point, my point is that He will be visible to us.

I understand that God is Spirit and we worship Him in spirit and truth, but we do that in physical, mortal, corruptible visible bodies now, no reason to think that throughout eternity we, and the kingdom will not be immortal, incorruptible and visible, observable, in the context of the discussion.

Joh 6:46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

That the Milllennial will be observable means it cannot happen is not a convincing argument to me. I do not see Luke 17:20 as supporting that thought.



I agree that he shall be visible to us according to what is written;

Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power And great glory.

Rev 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

According to the scriptures we do not know what we shall be if we knew that we would know what he shall be, do you agree?

1 Jn 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall Be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall Be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

DIZZY
Dec 12th 2007, 11:47 PM
With the understanding that Christ returns once, and those that are alive and remain are gathered to be with the Lord for ever;
1 Thess 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Why would Christ leave behind some of those that are alive and remain (believers)?


http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif


Hi Firstfruits,

We need to look at the verse more indepth, we need to also look at the previous verses to understand what is being said.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

verse 14 speaks of those who sleep in Jesus, in other words those who have died believing that Jesus is the Son of God and He came to save us from the penalty of our sins, which we know that penalty is death, yet He took that punishment upon Himself.

Now we look at verse 15 those who are alive and remain, that is those who are living today. Since the church age many have died and continue to die but the Lord will bring their souls with Him at His coming.

Verse 16 we who are alive at the Lords coming will not procede those who are asleep. This means the Lord will raise the dead give them their new bodies and their souls will be infused with their new bodies.

verse 17 once the dead have received their new bodies, those who are still living will be changed in the twinkling of the eye and they will be caught up to meet them in the clouds and together we shall meet the Lord in the air. We shall always be with the Lord after that.:amen:

So to answer your question no one is left behind we are all raised to meet the Lord in the air, it is just the dead are raised first then the living. This does not happen days, weeks, moths, years apart it happens on at the same time. as you notice in verse 17 we meet together in the clouds to be with the Lord in the air.

verse 17 is actually saying there is an order in which we are raised the dead first then we who are alive and remain. At the moment we are alive and remain on this dreadful place called earth. One day the Lord will come and take us away from this place to be with Him and our loved ones who have gone before us. Praise the Lord for His goodness to us, that whilst we were still sinners Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

wpm
Dec 13th 2007, 12:36 AM
Corinthians says the Kingdom of God, flesh and blood cannot inherit but at the same time you say we are the kingdom of God, we are flesh and blood so just how does that work? We are also the temple of God, same question. Plus, the Millennial reign of Christ here on earth is not the eternal Kingdom of God, two different kingdoms.

This hardly describes intra-Advent: Eze 36:24-38; Jer 23:5-8 (we know the Branch is Christ) Isaiah 62:1-12; Eze_28:24-26;

Most believers accept that we spiritually enter the kingdom upon salvation, and that there will be a final physical eternal manifestation of the kingdom at the end. The context of the reading in 1 Cor shows this is talking about the climactic glorious appearing of the kingdom at the Lord's appearing.

The context is all about our glorification in order to enter the eternal bliss. Flesh and bones cannot inherit the impending eternal kingdom.

Paul

Allegra
Dec 13th 2007, 03:37 AM
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020:4-6&version=50#fen-NKJV-31037a)] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
(Up front, this is a difficult but not overwhelming passage)
The first thing to note is, that the vision now described falls within the apocalyptic period. It is introduced by the formula 'And I saw,' which marks that which comes under the personal observation of the Seer.
Next, it is to be remarked that this is an evident dialectic between this scene & the act of judgment executed on the beast & his followers. It is the usual method of the Apocalypse thus to place in striking contrast the reward of the righteous & the retribution of the wicked.
Further observing that there is a manifest allusion in this passage to the promise of our Lord to His disciples, 'Verily I say to you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel' That period has now arrived. When that kingdom of the Messiah was to come, it is now regarded as present, & the disciples are glorified with their glorified Master:'judgment is given unto them;' they sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.'
We are to conceive of the 144,000 of the multitude redeemed from the land- the 144,000 out of the tribes of the children of Israel- as forming the kingdom, or subjects, placed under the spiritual government of the apostolic brotherhood.
In addition to these the Seer beholds those who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image; these also 'live & reign with Christ,' an expression which implies that they too had 'thrones' & 'judgment given to them. No doubt the cry of the martyrs of the 6th seal have had their prayers answered. Their enemies have perished, & they live & reign with Christ.
This vision looks back to the remarkable passage in 1Peter 4:6- they had been condemned by the judgment of men while in the flesh, but now they live in their spirit by the judgment of God, which has vindicated & crowned them.
What did Peter say in 2 Peter 1:12-15?
12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you,14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. 15 Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.
In this case ' the first resurrection includes only the dead in Christ.
One thing to note, that the reign of the suffering & witnessing saints, all of who have a part in the first resurrection, is not said to be on earth. They live & reign 'with Christ;' they are with him where he is, beholding his glory.

Let me know when you begin to talk about Daniel's people & the Judgment Throne.

Alleluia! Tis the reason for the season...:pray:

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 04:11 AM
I agree, Paul. I would like any premil to explain to me how any unbeliever is excluded from "them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". This leaves no unbelieving survivors at Christ's return. Believers are all caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This leaves no mortal survivors at all on the earth for a supposed thousand year earthly reign of Christ after His return.

Eric

Hi John and Eric,

Lets look at who are left to go into the millennial kingdom.

Zechariah 13:9
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

Revelation 12:13-16
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The rest of the womans offspring, are those who have believed the testamony of the two witnesses the 144,000 and the angel flying about through the air with the everlasting gospel message. There will be quiet a few of these believers killed during the tribulation period but I believe there bwill be survivers from this time period.

Zechariah 14:16
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Who are these survivers from all the nations? They are believers for all the wicked were destroyed and cast into outer darkness.

So from these verses we can gather it is mortal belivers who go into the millennial kingdom. Now lets find out who goes against the Lord in the end.

These mortal believers are able to have children are they not? It is these children, well not all of them, that fight against the Lord in battle with Satan in the end.

These children still have a free will, the parents teach them the truth but it is their own will to believe the truth or not. Even when Jesus is ruling some of the children don't submit to Him.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

When thew Lord returns He will bring His brideand those who have died in the tribulation plus the old testament saints with Him and we will reign with Him over those who are left on the earh.

Luke 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=22&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

The thrones we see in Revelation 20 are made up of they are representatives of the old testament saints and the church saints who are to rule over Israel and the nations during the ord's reign on earth.

If you feel there is no one thousand year reign then please explain the verses which inform us of this reign. These verses you will find above mentioned in the old testament and the new testament.

Firstfruits
Dec 13th 2007, 08:57 AM
Hi Firstfruits,

We need to look at the verse more indepth, we need to also look at the previous verses to understand what is being said.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

verse 14 speaks of those who sleep in Jesus, in other words those who have died believing that Jesus is the Son of God and He came to save us from the penalty of our sins, which we know that penalty is death, yet He took that punishment upon Himself.

Now we look at verse 15 those who are alive and remain, that is those who are living today. Since the church age many have died and continue to die but the Lord will bring their souls with Him at His coming.

Verse 16 we who are alive at the Lords coming will not procede those who are asleep. This means the Lord will raise the dead give them their new bodies and their souls will be infused with their new bodies.

verse 17 once the dead have received their new bodies, those who are still living will be changed in the twinkling of the eye and they will be caught up to meet them in the clouds and together we shall meet the Lord in the air. We shall always be with the Lord after that.:amen:

So to answer your question no one is left behind we are all raised to meet the Lord in the air, it is just the dead are raised first then the living. This does not happen days, weeks, moths, years apart it happens on at the same time. as you notice in verse 17 we meet together in the clouds to be with the Lord in the air.

verse 17 is actually saying there is an order in which we are raised the dead first then we who are alive and remain. At the moment we are alive and remain on this dreadful place called earth. One day the Lord will come and take us away from this place to be with Him and our loved ones who have gone before us. Praise the Lord for His goodness to us, that whilst we were still sinners Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Compared with your earlier post:

The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.

So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.

What has happened to the unbelievers after the millenium, if there are only believers left to have children?

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 12:33 PM
Compared with your earlier post:



The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.

So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.


Both the above statements say the same thing they are just worded differently. Children who do not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers, anyone who does not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers. So children who were born to believers had a choice and chose to go their own way V unbelievers born to the believers they chose to go their own way. Same old same old.



What has happened to the unbelievers after the millenium, if there are only believers left to have children?

Hi firstfruits ,
I don,t think you understand what is said, after the millennial kingdom the earth and all that is in it is destroyed there are no children to be had. Those who were faithful to the Lord went onto the eternal kingdom changed and those who were unfaithful were judged at the great white throne. After the millennium it is the end of the earth and all that is in it.

As I said there are no more children for all believers are in the eternal kingdom and they do not have children there. For they do not marry and they are not given in marriage. We will be like the angels.

Firstfruits
Dec 13th 2007, 01:48 PM
Both the above statements say the same thing they are just worded differently. Children who do not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers, anyone who does not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers. So children who were born to believers had a choice and chose to go their own way V unbelievers born to the believers they chose to go their own way. Same old same old.



Hi firstfruits ,
I don,t think you understand what is said, after the millennial kingdom the earth and all that is in it is destroyed there are no children to be had. Those who were faithful to the Lord went onto the eternal kingdom changed and those who were unfaithful were judged at the great white throne. After the millennium it is the end of the earth and all that is in it.

As I said there are no more children for all believers are in the eternal kingdom and they do not have children there. For they do not marry and they are not given in marriage. We will be like the angels.

Are you saying that during the millenium believers reigning with christ will have children that will be deceived by satan after the millenium?

Do all believers reign with Christ in the millenium?

If belivers do not have children during the millenium, can you explain how what you have said can be fulfilled?

Both the above statements say the same thing they are just worded differently. Children who do not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers, anyone who does not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers. So children who were born to believers had a choice and chose to go their own way V unbelievers born to the believers they chose to go their own way. Same old same old.
As I said there are no more children for all believers are in the eternal kingdom and they do not have children there. For they do not marry and they are not given in marriage. We will be like the angels

The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.
So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.

DIZZY
Dec 13th 2007, 08:53 PM
Are you saying that during the millenium believers reigning with christ will have children that will be deceived by satan after the millenium? NO

Hi Firstfruits,
Those who reign with Christ have their immortal bodies, they can not and will not have children for they are like the angels.

Mark 12:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.




Do all believers reign with Christ in the millenium?


Those who reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom are His church (the bride) that was raptured before the tribulation, the tribulation saints that were martyred and the old testament saints. They reign with the Lord in their immortal bodies, they are the ressurected saints.



If belivers do not have children during the millenium, can you explain how what you have said can be fulfilled?


Those who go into the millennial priod are believers from all nations, the 144,000 and those Israelites who the Lord hid in the wilderness for 42mths. These are the ones who have survived and they go into the millennial kingdom with the normal corruptable bodies, unchanged. They have children in the thousand year reign.



Both the above statements say the same thing they are just worded differently. Children who do not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers, anyone who does not put their faith in the Lord are unbelievers. So children who were born to believers had a choice and chose to go their own way V unbelievers born to the believers they chose to go their own way. Same old same old.


These are those in the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, which is not the eternal kingdom, it is still the earth they are on.



As I said there are no more children for all believers are in the eternal kingdom and they do not have children there. For they do not marry and they are not given in marriage. We will be like the angels


The above statement is talking about those who have been resurrected and are in the eternal kingdom. These are the eternal immortal beings in heaven after the earth and the heavens have been destroyed.
The Lord then creates a new heaven, a new earth, a new Jerusalem. This is the eternal kingdom.



The people who are gathered together for the final battle after the millennial kingdom are children who were born of the believers. Everyone still has a free will and choice to follow the Lord as their King or not, just because Satan isn't there to deceive them doesn't mean that there hearts aren't dark in the first place.We must remember they are still in there mortal faulty bodies, and they still sin.
So as you see these people who Satan gathers together for the final battle are unbelievers born to the believers and being unbelievers we know who there father is don't we.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe I could have worded this a bit better so to help you understand. Where it says after the millennial kingdom it should read, at the end of the millennial kingdom (the final battle Rev 20:7-10) those who are born to believers (mortal) but do not believe themselves are gathered together by Satan for the final battle.

Even though Satan wasn't there in that thousand year reign there were people who didn't believe, they didn't put their faith and trust in the Lord.

It's sort of like when Israel came out of Egypt and they went to the promised land, the did not enter it because they had fear and forgot about all that God had done for them.

So God killed all those twenty years and above and sent them to wonder in the wilderness. Those who wondered in the wilderness believed for they had seen what God had done. When they made it into the promised land their children even though they were taught about the truths of God, they did not believe and they turned their backs on God. So God punished them by taking their land away from them, but as soon as they repented they received their land back.

What I am getting at is it is believers (mortal) that go into the millennial reign and it is thier children who team up with Satan at the final battle. Oh not all the children will side with Satan but those who do will be destroyed.

David Taylor
Dec 13th 2007, 10:43 PM
This type of explanation about the nature of the Premill Kingdom, was one of the things that caused me, after 20 years of being a Premillenialist, to leave that view.

To many subsets and groups of believers, in different states and different destinies, and different supposed situations....that there is no specific nor clear biblical passage anywhere describing it in this manner. Nothing in Revelation 20 explains these things in a clear manner...nor in Isaiah 65, Zech 14, Ezekiel 40-48, or any other passage that doesn't mention the millennial kingdom, but is suppose to be, according to external teachers, the millennial kingdom.

I defer rather, to God having one group of believers; Jew and Gentile united as one body; and that one group united together with Christ transformed, glorified, made immortal and incorruptible; at His return.

Who remains that is outside of that group?

Jesus said it simply....."He that is not with me is against me" Mark 11:23

Do any other folks who used to be Premill have a similar experience?

DIZZY
Dec 14th 2007, 06:26 AM
This type of explanation about the nature of the Premill Kingdom, was one of the things that caused me, after 20 years of being a Premillenialist, to leave that view.

[quote]
To many subsets and groups of believers, in different states and different destinies, and different supposed situations....that there is no specific nor clear biblical passage anywhere describing it in this manner. Nothing in Revelation 20 explains these things in a clear manner...nor in Isaiah 65, Zech 14, Ezekiel 40-48, or any other passage that doesn't mention the millennial kingdom, but is suppose to be, according to external teachers, the millennial kingdom.
the word of the Lord is not hard to understand and there are only two groups believers and non believers and they are treated differently at different times.

1) Believers - caught up (Pre-tribulation) wicked remain on the earth.

2) The Lord returns - non believes punished to outer darkness (at end of the tribulation) and the beast and the false prophet cast into the lake of fire. Believers remain on the earth,

3) Believers go into the millennial kingdom - one thousand year reign.

4) After the thousand year reign non believers are judged at the great white throne judgment, Satan and these tha are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. Believers are changed and go into the eternal kingdom

The earth, and the heavens are destroyed, and God creates a new
heavens, a new earth and a new Jerusalem.




I defer rather, to God having one group of believers; Jew and Gentile united as one body; and that one group united together with Christ transformed, glorified, made immortal and incorruptible; at His return.
Genesis 17:6-8
6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”


Judges 2:1-3
1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’”

Deuteronomy 10:12,13
12 “And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?

God made a land covenant with Israel this covenant has nothing to do with the sin covenant of Israel, but God did say to them if they turned and defiled themselves with other gods as such, He would send other nations into their land and they will posses it until Israel repented then God would return them to their land.

God promised a deliverer would come to save them from their sins. This did happen when Jesus came, died on the cross and rose again on the third day.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Isaiah 7:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=7&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Zechariah 9:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=9&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
“ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.




Who remains that is outside of that group?
There are Israelites who remain after that group of saints are caught up.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

During the tribulation period the Lord once again puts a wall up between the Israelites and the Gentiles. God made a promise to save a remnant of Israel not the Gentiles. Israel seeks their Messiah during the tribulation because they realize they need a deliverer and they have no one to deliver them from the tribulation.

Zechariah 12:10
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

So there is a wall up once again between the Jew and the Gentile, God has left the outer courts to be trodden under foot by the Gentiles.



Jesus said it simply....."He that is not with me is against me" Mark 11:23
Yes He was talking about the church age and that will cease at the beginning of the 7 year period.

Firstfruits
Dec 14th 2007, 08:38 AM
NO

Hi Firstfruits,
Those who reign with Christ have their immortal bodies, they can not and will not have children for they are like the angels.

Mark 12:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.




Those who reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom are His church (the bride) that was raptured before the tribulation, the tribulation saints that were martyred and the old testament saints. They reign with the Lord in their immortal bodies, they are the ressurected saints.



Those who go into the millennial priod are believers from all nations, the 144,000 and those Israelites who the Lord hid in the wilderness for 42mths. These are the ones who have survived and they go into the millennial kingdom with the normal corruptable bodies, unchanged. They have children in the thousand year reign.



These are those in the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, which is not the eternal kingdom, it is still the earth they are on.



The above statement is talking about those who have been resurrected and are in the eternal kingdom. These are the eternal immortal beings in heaven after the earth and the heavens have been destroyed.
The Lord then creates a new heaven, a new earth, a new Jerusalem. This is the eternal kingdom.




Maybe I could have worded this a bit better so to help you understand. Where it says after the millennial kingdom it should read, at the end of the millennial kingdom (the final battle Rev 20:7-10) those who are born to believers (mortal) but do not believe themselves are gathered together by Satan for the final battle.

Even though Satan wasn't there in that thousand year reign there were people who didn't believe, they didn't put their faith and trust in the Lord.

It's sort of like when Israel came out of Egypt and they went to the promised land, the did not enter it because they had fear and forgot about all that God had done for them.

So God killed all those twenty years and above and sent them to wonder in the wilderness. Those who wondered in the wilderness believed for they had seen what God had done. When they made it into the promised land their children even though they were taught about the truths of God, they did not believe and they turned their backs on God. So God punished them by taking their land away from them, but as soon as they repented they received their land back.

What I am getting at is it is believers (mortal) that go into the millennial reign and it is thier children who team up with Satan at the final battle. Oh not all the children will side with Satan but those who do will be destroyed.[/quote]

If belivers do not have children during the millenium, can you explain how what you have said can be fulfilled?

Those who go into the millennial priod are believers from all nations, the 144,000 and those Israelites who the Lord hid in the wilderness for 42mths. These are the ones who have survived and they go into the millennial kingdom with the normal corruptable bodies, unchanged. They have children in the thousand year reign.
Those who reign with Christ have their immortal bodies, they can not and will not have children for they are like the angels.


When will these unbelievers be born to believers?

DIZZY
Dec 14th 2007, 01:27 PM
When will these unbelievers be born to believers?

These (mortal) unbelievers are born to (mortal) believers in the millennial kingdom, in the thousand year reign. Not all (mortal) believer's children will be (mortal) unbelievers there will be some who believe and at the end of the millennial kingdom will go into the eternal kingdom.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 14th 2007, 01:40 PM
Dizzy,

2 Thess. 1:7-9 telling us very clear, when Christ shall come with his angels, all unbelievers shall be punished with everlasting destruction from presence of Christ and his angels. It is same find in Matt. 24:41; and Rev. 14:10-11. All unbelievers shall be cast away in the lake of fire. There will be no mortal person left after the judgment day. Only immortal people shall inherit new earth - believers only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Firstfruits
Dec 14th 2007, 01:54 PM
These (mortal) unbelievers are born to (mortal) believers in the millennial kingdom, in the thousand year reign. Not all (mortal) believer's children will be (mortal) unbelievers there will be some who believe and at the end of the millennial kingdom will go into the eternal kingdom.

I refer you back to your answer;

Those who reign with Christ have their immortal bodies, they can not and will not have children for they are like the angels.


Either they will have children or they will not which is it?

2 Thess. 1:7-9 telling us very clear, when Christ shall come with his angels, all unbelievers shall be punished with everlasting destruction from presence of Christ and his angels. It is same find in Matt. 24:41; and Rev. 14:10-11. All unbelievers shall be cast away in the lake of fire. There will be no mortal person left after the judgment day. Only immortal people shall inherit new earth - believers only.

DIZZY
Dec 16th 2007, 12:26 PM
Dizzy,

2 Thess. 1:7-9 telling us very clear, when Christ shall come with his angels, all unbelievers shall be punished with everlasting destruction from presence of Christ and his angels. It is same find in Matt. 24:41; and Rev. 14:10-11. All unbelievers shall be cast away in the lake of fire. There will be no mortal person left after the judgment day. Only immortal people shall inherit new earth - believers only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi DeafPosttrib
For a start the final judgment is at the end of the thousand year reign. Those saints who were raptured and those that died in the great tribulation will reign with Christ for a thousand years over those who are left in the earthly kingdoms.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘ But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Christ's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom an eternal kingdom. After the one thousand year reign this earthly kingdom will be destroyed and everything that is in it.

When Christ comes with His saints to reign on this earth He will have His angels gather His elect both Jew and Gentile and they will bring them to Jerusalem. The Jew will continue to lead the Gentile nations to the Lord, so that they may worship Him during the thousand year reign.

Zechariah 8:22-23
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Firstfruits
Dec 16th 2007, 12:55 PM
Hi DeafPosttrib
For a start the final judgment is at the end of the thousand year reign. Those saints who were raptured and those that died in the great tribulation will reign with Christ for a thousand years over those who are left in the earthly kingdoms.

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘ But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Christ's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom an eternal kingdom. After the one thousand year reign this earthly kingdom will be destroyed and everything that is in it.

When Christ comes with His saints to reign on this earth He will have His angels gather His elect both Jew and Gentile and they will bring them to Jerusalem. The Jew will continue to lead the Gentile nations to the Lord, so that they may worship Him during the thousand year reign.

Zechariah 8:22-23
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”





Can you give the scriptures that say that Christ will reign in this earthly Jerusalem, and then have it destroyed?

When Christ comes with His saints to reign on this earth He will have His angels gather His elect both Jew and Gentile and they will bring them to Jerusalem. The Jew will continue to lead the Gentile nations to the Lord, so that they may worship Him during the thousand year reign.

DeafPosttrib
Dec 16th 2007, 01:26 PM
Good morning.

Firstfruits,

You saying, when Jesus will come with his angels. Angels will gathering Jews and Gentiles, and bring them to Jerusalem. I ask you, which one - earthly Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem? You saying, Jews will continue to lead Gentiles to the Lord during millennial reign. Please verse to support your view. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

quiet dove
Dec 16th 2007, 05:46 PM
Good morning.

Firstfruits,

You saying, when Jesus will come with his angels. Angels will gathering Jews and Gentiles, and bring them to Jerusalem. I ask you, which one - earthly Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem? You saying, Jews will continue to lead Gentiles to the Lord during millennial reign. Please verse to support your view. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!



Zec 8:18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'The fast of the fourth month, The fast of the fifth, The fast of the seventh, And the fast of the tenth, Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts For the house of Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.' 20 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, Inhabitants of many cities; 21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, And seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." 22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, And to pray before the LORD.'

Zec 8:23 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." ' "

Firstfruits
Dec 18th 2007, 08:52 AM
Good morning.

Firstfruits,

You saying, when Jesus will come with his angels. Angels will gathering Jews and Gentiles, and bring them to Jerusalem. I ask you, which one - earthly Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem? You saying, Jews will continue to lead Gentiles to the Lord during millennial reign. Please verse to support your view. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

This is from Dizzys previous post; It is his view, hence my question to him.

When Christ comes with His saints to reign on this earth He will have His angels gather His elect both Jew and Gentile and they will bring them to Jerusalem. The Jew will continue to lead the Gentile nations to the Lord, so that they may worship Him during the thousand year reign.

DIZZY
Dec 18th 2007, 11:38 AM
Can you give the scriptures that say that Christ will reign in this earthly Jerusalem, and then have it destroyed?

When Christ comes with His saints to reign on this earth He will have His angels gather His elect both Jew and Gentile and they will bring them to Jerusalem. The Jew will continue to lead the Gentile nations to the Lord, so that they may worship Him during the thousand year reign.

Hi Firstfruits,

have given verses to show that the Lord will reign from the earthly Jerusalem and after He will destroy the earth and create a new heavens a new earth and a new Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8:1-23

Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future

1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.’

3 “Thus says the LORD:


‘ I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’

4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.’

6 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?’
Says the LORD of hosts.

7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.’

9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built.
10 For before these days
There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast;
There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in;
For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the LORD of hosts.
12 ‘ For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.’

14 “For thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Just as I determined to punish you
When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ And I would not relent,
15 So again in these days
I am determined to do good
To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
Do not fear.
16 These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,’
Says the LORD.”

18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ The fast of the fourth month,
The fast of the fifth,
The fast of the seventh,
And the fast of the tenth,
Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts
For the house of Judah.
Therefore love truth and peace.’

20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,

“ Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Just in this chapter of Zechariah we can see that the Lord is going to reign from Jerusalem which is here on this earth. For we know in the new Jerusalem people do not grow old as they do in verse 4 and there are no children in the new Jerusalem as there is in verse 5.

Zechariah 14

The Day of the LORD

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The utter destruction spoken of here is talking about earthly wars nation against nation and so on, not the destruction that the Lord brings on the entire earth, when He destroys this present earth and the heavens surrounding it.

Revelation 21:
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

To me if the Bible says a new heaven and a new earth, then that is exactly what it means. The old heaven and earth has been destroyed and a new heaven and earth with a new Jerusalem have been created.

I hope this helps God bless.

Firstfruits
Dec 18th 2007, 12:19 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

have given verses to show that the Lord will reign from the earthly Jerusalem and after He will destroy the earth and create a new heavens a new earth and a new Jerusalem.

Zechariah 8:1-23

Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future

1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.’

3 “Thus says the LORD:


‘ I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the LORD of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.’

4 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5 The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.’

6 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?’
Says the LORD of hosts.

7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8 I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.’

9 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the LORD of hosts,
That the temple might be built.
10 For before these days
There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast;
There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in;
For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.

11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,’ says the LORD of hosts.
12 ‘ For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13 And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.’

14 “For thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Just as I determined to punish you
When your fathers provoked Me to wrath,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ And I would not relent,
15 So again in these days
I am determined to do good
To Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
Do not fear.
16 These are the things you shall do:
Speak each man the truth to his neighbor;
Give judgment in your gates for truth, justice, and peace;
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor;
And do not love a false oath.
For all these are things that I hate,’
Says the LORD.”

18 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, 19 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ The fast of the fourth month,
The fast of the fifth,
The fast of the seventh,
And the fast of the tenth,
Shall be joy and gladness and cheerful feasts
For the house of Judah.
Therefore love truth and peace.’

20 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:


‘ Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21 The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,

“ Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD,
And seek the LORD of hosts.
I myself will go also.”
22 Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the LORD.’

23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Just in this chapter of Zechariah we can see that the Lord is going to reign from Jerusalem which is here on this earth. For we know in the new Jerusalem people do not grow old as they do in verse 4 and there are no children in the new Jerusalem as there is in verse 5.

Zechariah 14

The Day of the LORD

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The utter destruction spoken of here is talking about earthly wars nation against nation and so on, not the destruction that the Lord brings on the entire earth, when He destroys this present earth and the heavens surrounding it.

Revelation 21:
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

To me if the Bible says a new heaven and a new earth, then that is exactly what it means. The old heaven and earth has been destroyed and a new heaven and earth with a new Jerusalem have been created.

I hope this helps God bless.



With the understanding that the kingdom promised to Christ is an everlasting kingdom, would you agree that the Jerusalem which is now, is not an everlasting kingdom? Is it therefore his kingdom?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 06:44 AM
With the understanding that the kingdom promised to Christ is an everlasting kingdom, would you agree that the Jerusalem which is now, is not an everlasting kingdom? Is it therefore his kingdom?

Jn 18:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.

I agree that the kingdoms of this world are not the Lord's it is Satan's at the moment, but the Lord takes back the kingdoms of this world.

Matthew 4:7-9
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

How can Satan offer these kingdoms to the Lord when God gave the earth and all that is in it to Adam and Eve? Satan had deceived them and taken all authority from them and He now rules over the kingdoms of this world.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

When Christ returns the earthly kingdoms belong to Him and He shall reign forever and ever. His kingdom is eternal for it is a spiritual kingdom, but the earthly kingdoms are not eternal. That includes the earthly Jerusalem that He reigns from for the thousand years.

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 08:56 AM
I agree that the kingdoms of this world are not the Lord's it is Satan's at the moment, but the Lord takes back the kingdoms of this world.

Matthew 4:7-9
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

How can Satan offer these kingdoms to the Lord when God gave the earth and all that is in it to Adam and Eve? Satan had deceived them and taken all authority from them and He now rules over the kingdoms of this world.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

When Christ returns the earthly kingdoms belong to Him and He shall reign forever and ever. His kingdom is eternal for it is a spiritual kingdom, but the earthly kingdoms are not eternal. That includes the earthly Jerusalem that He reigns from for the thousand years.

We understand that when Christ reigns it will be forever and ever, but since this earth will be destroyed, how can Jerusalem (earthly) be included, it is not everlasting, according to Gods promise.

Dan 2:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
Dan 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jerusalem which is now, will be destroyed, it is not an everlasting dominion. It is not what God has promised?

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 09:08 AM
I agree that the kingdoms of this world are not the Lord's it is Satan's at the moment, but the Lord takes back the kingdoms of this world.

Matthew 4:7-9
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

How can Satan offer these kingdoms to the Lord when God gave the earth and all that is in it to Adam and Eve? Satan had deceived them and taken all authority from them and He now rules over the kingdoms of this world.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

When Christ returns the earthly kingdoms belong to Him and He shall reign forever and ever. His kingdom is eternal for it is a spiritual kingdom, but the earthly kingdoms are not eternal. That includes the earthly Jerusalem that He reigns from for the thousand years.

We understand that Christ shall reign forever and ever, but since this earth is to be destoyed, how can it include Jerusalem (earthly) it is not everlasting, and not according to Gods promise.

Dan 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
Dan 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jerusalem which is now is not everlasting, it will be destroyed, it will pass away, it is not according to Gods will and promise.

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 10:54 AM
We understand that Christ shall reign forever and ever, but since this earth is to be destoyed, how can it include Jerusalem (earthly) it is not everlasting, and not according to Gods promise.

Dan 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.
Dan 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jerusalem which is now is not everlasting, it will be destroyed, it will pass away, it is not according to Gods will and promise.

Hi Firstfruits,
The only promise made about Jerusalem and the land surrounding it was given to Israel. God made a covenant with Abraham that as far as his eyes could see that land would be an everlasting possession to him and his descendants.

Genesis 17:7-9
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

This covenant has not been fulfilled as yet but when the Lord returns He will give the land to Israel and they shall live in peace. Yes the land will be destroyed but God's promises have not been destroyed with the land for His word is everlasting, and it carries over to the new Jerusalem where the twelve tribes of Israel will reign with the Lord from the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:9
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

ShirleyFord
Dec 19th 2007, 12:10 PM
Hi Firstfruits,
The only promise made about Jerusalem and the land surrounding it was given to Israel. God made a covenant with Abraham that as far as his eyes could see that land would be an everlasting possession to him and his descendants.

Genesis 17:7-9
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

This covenant has not been fulfilled as yet but when the Lord returns He will give the land to Israel and they shall live in peace. Yes the land will be destroyed but God's promises have not been destroyed with the land for His word is everlasting, and it carries over to the new Jerusalem where the twelve tribes of Israel will reign with the Lord from the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:9
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.


What is the covenant God made with Abraham?

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Physical circumcision in the flesh of Abraham and in the flesh of his seed was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham:


Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Shirley

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 12:24 PM
Hi Firstfruits,
The only promise made about Jerusalem and the land surrounding it was given to Israel. God made a covenant with Abraham that as far as his eyes could see that land would be an everlasting possession to him and his descendants.

Genesis 17:7-9
7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.

This covenant has not been fulfilled as yet but when the Lord returns He will give the land to Israel and they shall live in peace. Yes the land will be destroyed but God's promises have not been destroyed with the land for His word is everlasting, and it carries over to the new Jerusalem where the twelve tribes of Israel will reign with the Lord from the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:9
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The scriptures you have used refer to the new Jerusalem (heavenly) and not the Jerusalem (earthly) do you agree?

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 12:37 PM
The scriptures you have used refer to the new Jerusalem (heavenly) and not the Jerusalem (earthly) do you agree?

I would agree that the verses used in revelation 21-22 are speaking of the new Jerusalem.

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 12:41 PM
I would agree that the verses used in revelation 21-22 are speaking of the new Jerusalem.

Would you agree that The kingdom promised by God is the new Jerusalem?

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 12:47 PM
Would you agree that The kingdom promised by God is the new Jerusalem?

It depends on what kingdom we are refering to, the earthly kingdom was promised to Israel which will be given to them during the millennial reign.

The heavenly kingdom which is an eternal kingdom the Lord will reign over forever was promised to the church and Israel and they will reign with Christ over it, you will find this in Revelation 22.

I am going to bed now goodnight and God Bless.

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 01:08 PM
It depends on what kingdom we are refering to, the earthly kingdom was promised to Israel which will be given to them during the millennial reign.

The heavenly kingdom which is an eternal kingdom the Lord will reign over forever was promised to the church and Israel and they will reign with Christ over it, you will find this in Revelation 22.

I am going to bed now goodnight and God Bless.

The kingdom promised to Christ that shall never be destoyed.

Dan 7:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Firstfruits
Dec 19th 2007, 04:30 PM
First let us see who are in the first resurrection, and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; And they lived And reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Although this scripture does not say where they dwell with Christ but as we look at the following scriptures we will see where they shall dwell with Christ.

So we know who are in the group, so let us have a look at the next scripture.

Rev 15:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: And them that had gotten the victory over the beast, And over his image, And over his mark, And over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Where is the sea of glass located?
Is this the same group as the first?

If it is the same group then how did they get there according to the following scripture.

Revelation 13:14,15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Now have a look at these scriptures:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Where is the alter?
Where shall they be resting?

Revelation 7:9-17.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Is this group seen to be in heaven or on earth?

Again where is the golden alter?

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

If all groups mentioned are the same, then the millenium reign must be in heaven, according to the scriptures.

Firstfruits

With the understanding that these groups mentioned are one, and that they are always before the throne of God;
Rev 7:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Therefore are They before The throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on The throne shall dwell among Them.

This according to that which is written means those that reign whith Christ do not go anywhere else, and neither does Christ, to reign other than before the throne of God in heaven.

Rev 7:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Is 49:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=49&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

This according to scripture is in the new Jerusalem;

Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

wpm
Dec 19th 2007, 06:12 PM
It depends on what kingdom we are refering to, the earthly kingdom was promised to Israel which will be given to them during the millennial reign.

The heavenly kingdom which is an eternal kingdom the Lord will reign over forever was promised to the church and Israel and they will reign with Christ over it, you will find this in Revelation 22.

I am going to bed now goodnight and God Bless.

I have to disagree. There is only one Kingdom of God and one King. The kingdom was taken off Israel at Christ's first Advent and opened up to all nations today. We enter into it by faith. The final manifestation of it will arrive at Christ's one final future Coming.

Scripture makes clear that no wicked survive His Coming so there are no goats left to take over the new earth as you are suggesting.

Paul

John146
Dec 19th 2007, 07:54 PM
What is the covenant God made with Abraham?

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Physical circumcision in the flesh of Abraham and in the flesh of his seed was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham:


Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Shirley

Great post, Shirley. The Old Testament prophecies are so much easier to understand if we just allow the New Testament writers to explain the true meaning of them for us.

Eric

DIZZY
Dec 19th 2007, 08:38 PM
What is the covenant God made with Abraham?

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Physical circumcision in the flesh of Abraham and in the flesh of his seed was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham:


Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Shirley

Hi Shirley,

Genesis 15

God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17

The Sign of the Covenant

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

My question is can God's covenant be broken by God? Israel has been chosen as God's special people and they will remain special to Him right up to the time they are all taken home. When it comes to salvation through Jesus Christ we are all the same there is no difference, but when it comes to the rest of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants we are different. God made no other promiss to us other that if we believed in His Son we would be saved and enter the eternal kingdom.

Promises made to Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob

Genesis 15:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 15:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 2:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=2&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 6:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=6&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 24:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=24&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:41-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=41&end_verse=43&version=50&context=context)

That is just a few of the covenants the Lord made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who is called Israel, the promises made to them were carried over to their descendants after them because they were everlasting covenants. In another word they can't be broken by man or God ever.

The covenant with the circumcision in the skin was to do with salvation to Abraham and his descendants. But once Christ came and died on the cross the Bible told us there was no difference between the Jew, Greek bondservant or free man we all could find salvation through Jesus Christ. But that did not cancel out the promises to Israel. God just grafted us on to the tree of salvation. We receive salvation through Christ nothing else, Israel on the other hand receive salvation through Jesus Christ plus the covenant God made with them about inheriting the whole land of Caanan. They will receive that promise when Christ returns.

Zechariah 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
“The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.


God Bless

David Taylor
Dec 19th 2007, 08:53 PM
Hi Shirley,

Genesis 15

God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17

The Sign of the Covenant

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

My question is can God's covenant be broken by God? Israel has been chosen as God's special people and they will remain special to Him right up to the time they are all taken home. When it comes to salvation through Jesus Christ we are all the same there is no difference, but when it comes to the rest of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants we are different. God made no other promiss to us other that if we believed in His Son we would be saved and enter the eternal kingdom.

Promises made to Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob

Genesis 15:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 15:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 2:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=2&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 6:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=6&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 24:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=24&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:41-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=41&end_verse=43&version=50&context=context)

That is just a few of the covenants the Lord made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who is called Israel, the promises made to them were carried over to their descendants after them because they were everlasting covenants. In another word they can't be broken by man or God ever.

The covenant with the circumcision in the skin was to do with salvation to Abraham and his descendants. But once Christ came and died on the cross the Bible told us there was no difference between the Jew, Greek bondservant or free man we all could find salvation through Jesus Christ. But that did not cancel out the promises to Israel. God just grafted us on to the tree of salvation. We receive salvation through Christ nothing else, Israel on the other hand receive salvation through Jesus Christ plus the covenant God made with them about inheriting the whole land of Caanan. They will receive that promise when Christ returns.

Zechariah 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
“The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.


God Bless


And they were all fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham......for Christ alone, is everlasting to everlasting.

ShirleyFord
Dec 20th 2007, 01:42 AM
Hi Shirley,

Genesis 15

God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17

The Sign of the Covenant

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

My question is can God's covenant be broken by God? Israel has been chosen as God's special people and they will remain special to Him right up to the time they are all taken home. When it comes to salvation through Jesus Christ we are all the same there is no difference, but when it comes to the rest of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants we are different. God made no other promiss to us other that if we believed in His Son we would be saved and enter the eternal kingdom.

Promises made to Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob

Genesis 15:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 15:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 2:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=2&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 6:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=6&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 24:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=24&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:41-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=41&end_verse=43&version=50&context=context)

That is just a few of the covenants the Lord made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who is called Israel, the promises made to them were carried over to their descendants after them because they were everlasting covenants. In another word they can't be broken by man or God ever.

The covenant with the circumcision in the skin was to do with salvation to Abraham and his descendants. But once Christ came and died on the cross the Bible told us there was no difference between the Jew, Greek bondservant or free man we all could find salvation through Jesus Christ. But that did not cancel out the promises to Israel. God just grafted us on to the tree of salvation. We receive salvation through Christ nothing else, Israel on the other hand receive salvation through Jesus Christ plus the covenant God made with them about inheriting the whole land of Caanan. They will receive that promise when Christ returns.

Zechariah 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
“The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.


God Bless

Hi Dizzy,

God's covenant with Abraham that Abraham agreed to was to bring God, the Eternal Word (John 1:1), through his flesh and the flesh of his descendents to be the Messiah, Savior and Redeemer to not only Abraham and his descendants but to the whole world.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


At the birth of John the Baptist, Zacharias, his father, was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophecied about Jesus and the covenant God made with Abraham six months before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child (John the Baptist), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.



Shirley

John146
Dec 20th 2007, 06:48 AM
I agree that the kingdoms of this world are not the Lord's it is Satan's at the moment, but the Lord takes back the kingdoms of this world.

Matthew 4:7-9
7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’”
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

How can Satan offer these kingdoms to the Lord when God gave the earth and all that is in it to Adam and Eve? Satan had deceived them and taken all authority from them and He now rules over the kingdoms of this world.

Revelation 11:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

When Christ returns the earthly kingdoms belong to Him and He shall reign forever and ever. His kingdom is eternal for it is a spiritual kingdom, but the earthly kingdoms are not eternal. That includes the earthly Jerusalem that He reigns from for the thousand years.

Rev 11:15 only speaks of Christ reigning forever. How do you come up with Him reigning over an earthly kingdom for a finite period of time from that verse? Revelation 20 also says nothing about Christ reigning over any earthly kingdom. It does speak of souls of physically dead believers reigning with Christ for a thousand years but we know that the souls of the dead in Christ are not on earth, but in heaven.

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 12:03 PM
Rev 11:15 only speaks of Christ reigning forever. How do you come up with Him reigning over an earthly kingdom for a finite period of time from that verse? Revelation 20 also says nothing about Christ reigning over any earthly kingdom. It does speak of souls of physically dead believers reigning with Christ for a thousand years but we know that the souls of the dead in Christ are not on earth, but in heaven.

Tell me is heaven a kingdom or kingdoms?

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 12:07 PM
Hi Dizzy,

God's covenant with Abraham that Abraham agreed to was to bring God, the Eternal Word (John 1:1), through his flesh and the flesh of his descendents to be the Messiah, Savior and Redeemer to not only Abraham and his descendants but to the whole world.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


At the birth of John the Baptist, Zacharias, his father, was filled with the Holy Ghost and prophecied about Jesus and the covenant God made with Abraham six months before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child (John the Baptist), shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.



Shirley

As I said you have the spiritual covenant of salvation through Jesus's death on the cross and an covenant on the land which was given to Abraham and all his descendants as an everlasting possession. That covenant has not been fulfilled yet. Do they own all the land God promised them? NO Will they own all the land God promised them? Yes when the Lord returns.

God Bless

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 12:08 PM
And they were all fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the seed of Abraham......for Christ alone, is everlasting to everlasting.

I am sorry I have to disagee for Israel does not own the land God promised to Abraham and his descendants after him. But they will when the Lord returns.

God Bless

Firstfruits
Dec 20th 2007, 01:25 PM
As I said you have the spiritual covenant of salvation through Jesus's death on the cross and an covenant on the land which was given to Abraham and all his descendants as an everlasting possession. That covenant has not been fulfilled yet. Do they own all the land God promised them? NO Will they own all the land God promised them? Yes when the Lord returns.

God Bless

As you have mentioned the land promised to Abraham is an everlasting possession, but you have also siad that this earth will be destroyed, so how does that affect Gods promises when he destroys this earthly land?

Remember when Christ returns this earth will be destroyed at the point when as you say the promise is to be fulfilled.

ShirleyFord
Dec 20th 2007, 01:39 PM
As I said you have the spiritual covenant of salvation through Jesus's death on the cross and an covenant on the land which was given to Abraham and all his descendants as an everlasting possession. That covenant has not been fulfilled yet. Do they own all the land God promised them? NO Will they own all the land God promised them? Yes when the Lord returns.

God Bless

Joshua 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.



Joshua 24:1 And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.

2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labor, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.



God already fulfilled the temporal land promise to Abraham's descendents. The only everlasting land there will be will be on the new earth in eternity.

David Taylor
Dec 20th 2007, 05:50 PM
I am sorry I have to disagee for Israel does not own the land God promised to Abraham and his descendants after him. But they will when the Lord returns.

God Bless

Jesus owns the land promised to Abraham.

The promised land is already given to Abraham's true seed.

Jesus didn't fail any, in fulfilling the promise made to Abraham.

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 08:48 PM
Joshua 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.



Joshua 24:1 And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.

2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

13 And I have given you a land for which ye did not labor, and cities which ye built not, and ye dwell in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which ye planted not do ye eat.



God already fulfilled the temporal land promise to Abraham's descendents. The only everlasting land there will be will be on the new earth in eternity.

Hi Shirley
God did not promise them an everlasting land in eternity, God promised them this land, the whole of Caanan on. Israel will reign with the Lord in the eternal kingdom, but they will not possess the land.

God Bless

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 08:52 PM
Jesus owns the land promised to Abraham.

The promised land is already given to Abraham's true seed.

Jesus didn't fail any, in fulfilling the promise made to Abraham.

Hi David,
Once again I have to disagree, Jesus does not own the land at this point of time, and neither does Israel. If Jesus owned the land why would he be coming back to take it from the userper? That is what Revelation is all about the Lord taking back what is rightfully His.

God Bless

David Taylor
Dec 20th 2007, 09:33 PM
Hi David,
Once again I have to disagree, Jesus does not own the land at this point of time, and neither does Israel. If Jesus owned the land why would he be coming back to take it from the userper?

Jesus owns all land, he doesn't have anything to take away from anyone else.



That is what Revelation is all about the Lord taking back what is rightfully His.

God Bless

Revelation doesn't mention Jesus taking any land from anyone...only Him returning to destroy the wicked, and to unite with his long-waiting Bride.

DIZZY
Dec 20th 2007, 11:14 PM
Jesus owns all land, he doesn't have anything to take away from anyone else.



Revelation doesn't mention Jesus taking any land from anyone...only Him returning to destroy the wicked, and to unite with his long-waiting Bride.

Hi David,
In Revelation 5 we find the Lamb given a scroll, this scroll is the title deed to the earth. We find throughout Revelation when a seal is opened punishment comes on the wicked, when a trumpet is blown punishment comes on the wicked, when the bowls are poured out punishment is poured out once again on the wicked. In Revelation 19 we find the Lord returning and judgment is made on the wicked the beast and the false prophet. The Lord takes back what is rightfully His and restores it back to it's former glory and He reigns with His saints for onwe thousand years.

Matthew 19:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Zechariah 14

The Day of the LORD

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south. (this is when the Lord returns to reclaim what belongs to Him. Th regeneration time in Matthew 19:28)
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
So as I have said we need to search the Bible to know more about Revelation.

David Taylor
Dec 20th 2007, 11:39 PM
Hi David,
In Revelation 5 we find the Lamb given a scroll, this scroll is the title deed to the earth.

Revelation never says the scroll given to the Lamb in chapter 5 is the title deed to the earth.



In Revelation 19 we find the Lord returning and judgment is made on the wicked the beast and the false prophet. The Lord takes back what is rightfully His

Revelation 19 mentions nothing about the Lord taking back what is rightfully his.

The Lord does tell us however, that: "all the earth is mine" and "I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession. "

ShirleyFord
Dec 21st 2007, 12:28 AM
Dizzy,

Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it, not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure.

Jesus is Abraham's descendent to whom the promises were made:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


And those who are in Christ are also the descendents of Abraham and heirs with Christ:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


Look who the Bible says owns the earth:

Ex 9:29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's.

Deut 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
Ps 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


1 Cor 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.


1 Cor 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:



Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


Ps 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Ps 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.


Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.



Shirley

wpm
Dec 21st 2007, 12:41 AM
Hi Shirley,

Genesis 15

God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord GOD, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord GOD, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.”

Genesis 17

The Sign of the Covenant

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

My question is can God's covenant be broken by God? Israel has been chosen as God's special people and they will remain special to Him right up to the time they are all taken home. When it comes to salvation through Jesus Christ we are all the same there is no difference, but when it comes to the rest of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants we are different. God made no other promiss to us other that if we believed in His Son we would be saved and enter the eternal kingdom.

Promises made to Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob

Genesis 15:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 15:17-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=13&end_verse=15&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=50&context=context)
Genesis 17:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=17&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 2:23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=2&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 6:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=6&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 24:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=24&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context)
Exodus 34:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=34&verse=26&end_verse=28&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context)
Leviticus 26:41-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=26&verse=41&end_verse=43&version=50&context=context)

That is just a few of the covenants the Lord made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who is called Israel, the promises made to them were carried over to their descendants after them because they were everlasting covenants. In another word they can't be broken by man or God ever.

The covenant with the circumcision in the skin was to do with salvation to Abraham and his descendants. But once Christ came and died on the cross the Bible told us there was no difference between the Jew, Greek bondservant or free man we all could find salvation through Jesus Christ. But that did not cancel out the promises to Israel. God just grafted us on to the tree of salvation. We receive salvation through Christ nothing else, Israel on the other hand receive salvation through Jesus Christ plus the covenant God made with them about inheriting the whole land of Caanan. They will receive that promise when Christ returns.

Zechariah 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=12&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
“The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.


God Bless

You still haven't addressed Firstfruit's pertinent question:

"As you have mentioned the land promised to Abraham is an everlasting possession, but you have also said that this earth will be destroyed, so how does that affect Gods promises when he destroys this earthly land?"

Also, are you saying that there is some spiritual virtue today in circumcision - as there was in the OT?

Are you saying this is an eternal ordinance?

I think that you are failing to see that we are the true children of Abraham - those that are of faith - none other.

Paul

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 12:42 AM
Dizzy,

Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it, not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure.

Jesus is Abraham's descendent to whom the promises were made:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


And those who are in Christ are also the descendents of Abraham and heirs with Christ:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


Look who the Bible says owns the earth:

Ex 9:29 And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's.

Deut 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them.
Ps 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.


1 Cor 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.


1 Cor 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:



Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



Psalms 25:12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.

14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


Ps 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Ps 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.


Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.



Shirley

Does Jesus physically posses the land now?

ShirleyFord
Dec 21st 2007, 12:51 AM
Does Jesus physically posses the land now?

Dizzy, when the Bible says multiple times as I have shown that the earth is the Lord's, I would think that would include the land on the earth.

God called the dry land Earth at the Creation:

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth



Shirley

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 03:10 AM
Dizzy, when the Bible says multiple times as I have shown that the earth is the Lord's, I would think that would include the land on the earth.

God called the dry land Earth at the Creation:

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth



Shirley

Hi Shirley maybe I should repeat the question does the Lord physically own the earth now?

losthorizon
Dec 21st 2007, 03:30 AM
...does the Lord physically own the earth now?
"The earth is the Lord's and everything in it; the world and all who live in it, for he founded it upon the seas and established it upon the waters" Psalm 24.

David Taylor
Dec 21st 2007, 03:57 AM
Hi Shirley maybe I should repeat the question does the Lord physically own the earth now?

Maybe try stepping up, and answering the question the Lord asked Job.....

Questions:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? "

"I will shew thee, hear me; and that which I have seen I will declare; Which wise men have told from their fathers, and have not hid it: Unto whom alone the earth was given?"

Answers:
"For God is the King of all the earth:

thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's.

The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof

all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. "







Amen. Hallelujah. Amen.

DIZZY
Dec 21st 2007, 05:37 AM
Maybe try stepping up, and answering the question the Lord asked Job.....

Questions:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? "

"I will shew thee, hear me; and that which I have seen I will declare; Which wise men have told from their fathers, and have not hid it: Unto whom alone the earth was given?"

Answers:
"For God is the King of all the earth:

thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's.

The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof

all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof. "







Amen. Hallelujah. Amen.

Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless

Firstfruits
Dec 21st 2007, 11:08 AM
Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless


What is the new country they seek since God has kept/fulfilled his promise?

Heb 11:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

They truly were given, and dwelt in the land of promise, but as it is written the desire a better country, "that it heavenly"

wpm
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:40 AM
Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless


Will the physical land boundaries of Israel survive the fiery destruction that ushers in the new earth and continue for ever and ever and ever?

Paul

Firstfruits
Dec 22nd 2007, 12:28 PM
Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless


What is the land of promise in which Abraham dwelt?

Heb 11:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

What is the promise that was fulfilled?

ShirleyFord
Dec 22nd 2007, 02:06 PM
Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless


Dizzy, the only way to the Everlasting Promised Land is through Jesus Christ, the last seed and descendent of Abraham. The only way to possess the Everlasting Purchased Possession that was Promised to Abraham is in and through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Shirley

Firstfruits
Dec 23rd 2007, 12:02 PM
Hi David,
Yes the earth belongs to the Lord Hewas there in the beginning, He created it, and He has given to Abraham and his desendants the land of Caanan as an everlasting possession, as Shirley said, "Abraham's descendents already inherited Canaan, the Promised land, the land of Rest, and possessed it,not once but twice. God is faithful to His Promises. He always does what He says He will do, Always...you can take what He says to the bank. His Word is that trustworthy and secure. "

So if God is faithful to His promise why is it that Israel still do not possess the land God promised them. There is still fighting going on over the land and Israel is forced constantly to give up more and more of her land.

The land God promised Israel through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not theirs yet, and it won't be theirs until the Lord returns and gives it back to them. You can bank on it because as Shirley said, "His word is trustworthy and secure.":amen:


God Bless


Israel possesses the land.

Josh 21:43 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=43) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the lAnd which he sware to give unto their fathers; And they possessed it, And dwelt therein.
Josh 21:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: And there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hAnd.
Josh 21:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=6&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

It has all been fulfilled.

But the "rest" is still to come!!!!!