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Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 02:43 PM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.
2) An emotional response.
3) Both intellectual and emotional
4) Intellectual, then emotion follows
5) Emotional, followed by intellect
6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved
7) Other

So the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

Theophilus
Nov 28th 2007, 02:54 PM
I'd have to go with intellectual and emotional.

I knew I was a sinner: intellect.
It grieved me greatly when I realized how sinful I was: emotion.

Of course, the Holy Spirit gets the greatest credit in calling my sinfulness to mind, and causing my spirit to cry out.

Unseal my lips, O Lord, that my mouth may praise you. You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one. You do not want a burnt offering. The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God. (Psalm 51:15-17 NLT)

Toolman
Nov 28th 2007, 02:56 PM
RBG,

I'm not sure I would descibe my experience as either emotional or intellectual. Neither of those words seem to describe it.

I heard the Gospel message one morning, after years of God dealing with my heart (convicting me with the Law), and it simply was true and I trusted and believed that Christ was able to save me from sin.

Emotions definitely resulted from that, I had an extreme sense of peace I had never, ever known before. I guess intellect was involved also, because I definitely heard and processed some data/knowledge thru my ears and brain.

But I don't see the issue of trusting/believing the Gospel as either emotional or intellectual. I see it as a miracle of God and His grace and those words, emotion and intellect, just don't seem to describe it for me.

So I guess I'll go with #6 even though I know exactly when and where I believed the Gospel... Sept. 12th 1987, around 10:00 a.m. at First Family Church in Dallas Tx. with Oscar Roan preaching the Gospel :)

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 03:02 PM
So far, we have:


1) An intellectual response.
2) An emotional response.
3) Both intellectual and emotional -------- 1)
4) Intellectual, then emotion follows
5) Emotional, followed by intellect
6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved -------- 1)
7) Other


Although TM, I'm tempted to record your reply as a 9, by a combination of 1,2 and 6... :)

dhtraveler
Nov 28th 2007, 03:17 PM
I believe God uses our emotions for His purposes, even as He uses anything for his purpose. Yet God's word says that it is by Grace, through faith that we are saved. So your question should be, Is faith emotional, or intellectual?

Now that is a question, and i do not think its either/or because both are used yet neither are the cause of salvation, nor means.

:hug:

Friend of I AM
Nov 28th 2007, 03:17 PM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.
2) An emotional response.
3) Both intellectual and emotional
4) Intellectual, then emotion follows
5) Emotional, followed by intellect
6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved
7) OtherSo the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

On both levels. I think it's split pretty evenly on both levels in the body - being that you have many who are more emotive thinkers in Christ, while you have others who are more inclined to seek God on an intellectual level. I think as each person progresses in their spiritual walk, the Holy Spirit gradually conforms an individual to the likeness of Christ - who had a balance of both of these spiritual aspects of God.

Biggest problem arises when individuals can't get out of their comfort zone. For the emotive member, such problems involve generally internalizing everything and thinking that every act of emotion, whether it be big or small by friend family member is inherently linked to their walk and standing with God.(I tend to fall into this group often..:)) This causes them to trip quite often as they are easily swayed by the emotions and opinions of others, and to easily take offense when someone disagrees with their views and opinions.

For the intellectual member, such problems involve thinking that they are above anything involving emotions - and thus such people usually become very self righteous and above reproach during their walks, not taking into account the views and feelings of others - and believing everything about the Word can be rationalized down to a level of human understanding, and often time lacking in compassion towards their fellow more emotive members. ( I tend to fall into this group sometimes too too :) )

Edit: So my answer would be number 3...or perhaps 7..or perhaps..IDK...:)

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 03:27 PM
On both levels. I think it's split pretty evenly on both levels in the body - being that you have many who are more emotive thinkers in Christ, while you have others who are more inclined to seek God on an intellectual level. I think as each person progresses in their spiritual walk, the Holy Spirit gradually conforms an individual to the likeness of Christ - who had a balance of both of these spiritual aspects of God.

Biggest problem arises when individuals can't get out of their comfort zone. For the emotive member, such problems involve generally internalizing everything and thinking that every act of emotion, whether it be big or small by friend family member is inherently linked to their walk and standing with God.(I tend to fall into this group often..:)) This causes them to trip quite often as they are easily swayed by the emotions and opinions of others, and to easily take offense when someone disagrees with their views and opinions.

For the intellectual member, such problems involve thinking that they are above anything involving emotions - and thus such people usually become very self righteous and above reproach during their walks, not taking into account the views and feelings of others - and believing everything about the Word can be rationalized down to a level of human understanding, and often time lacking in compassion towards their fellow more emotive members. ( I tend to fall into this group sometimes too too :) )

Edit: So my answer would be number 3...or perhaps 7..or perhaps..IDK...:)

LOL... I was just ready to write 'but which number?' Thanks for the edit! :)

Kingsdaughter
Nov 28th 2007, 03:29 PM
I can't really explain what had happened to me the night I got saved, I just knew that something happened to me and there was a new person or spirit living inside of me(the Holy Spirit) It was all Him. Jesus explains it best when He says in John3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 03:30 PM
I believe God uses our emotions for His purposes, even as He uses anything for his purpose. Yet God's word says that it is by Grace, through faith that we are saved. So your question should be, Is faith emotional, or intellectual?

Now that is a question, and i do not think its either/or because both are used yet neither are the cause of salvation, nor means.

:hug:


OK, so by your definition then, your reply is a 7)?

:hug:

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 03:32 PM
I can't really explain what had happened to me the night I got saved, I just knew that something happened to me and there was a new person or spirit living inside of me(the Holy Spirit) It was all Him. Jesus explains it best when He says in John3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

So keeping with the format question, I can log you down as a 6)?

mcgyver
Nov 28th 2007, 03:33 PM
I think that all can have a part to play...

In my case #5 best fits. I was filled with an absolute sense of despair one day, which caused me to start searching....I ended up going on a Saturday afternoon to knock on church doors, and finally one opened. The pastor shared the Gospel with me, and as I heard it I just knew that what he was telling me was the absolute truth.

I wrestled with it for the next couple of days, read some of the bible for myself, and in the privacy of my own home I accepted Christ's offer.

My emotion during this time was "Oh no,I'm going to have to give up what I like" :rolleyes:

My intellect said that a man who had been dead (as in stone cold) for three days and then came back to life, was probably telling the truth and I ought to pay attention to Him.

"Thanks Lord, for not giving up on me!!!"

dhtraveler
Nov 28th 2007, 03:54 PM
OK, so by your definition then, your reply is a 7)?

:hug:

does this forum have a poll option? Maybe you would get the kind of responses you desire if you used it?

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 04:12 PM
does this forum have a poll option? Maybe you would get the kind of responses you desire if you used it?

Ah... so you're an intellectual responder? LOL :rofl:


Probably is, but then it would probably be moved over to the poll site and could lose some of the biblical background that I hope will come latter in the thread. Where I see the next steps developing would be keyed on words as heart, mind, soul, will, then joy, sorrow, anger, peace, love, faith, etc.

ProjectPeter
Nov 28th 2007, 04:20 PM
I don't know that there is a way that one could separate the two so I'd say 3 myself. Humans are given emotions by God and I figure He intended that for a reason. I think of the message preached by Peter. Folks heard (intellect) and then their hearts were pierced (emotional). But I'd also say it could be the other way around too in a sense. A person could be listening emotionally and once they gained the information... the intellect part works itself into the equation. Thinking of Cornelius there. He did seem quite emotional when meeting Peter and wide open for the intellect part.

So yeah... there ya go! :lol:

dhtraveler
Nov 28th 2007, 04:23 PM
I don't know that there is a way that one could separate the two so I'd say 3 myself. Humans are given emotions by God and I figure He intended that for a reason. I think of the message preached by Peter. Folks heard (intellect) and then their hearts were pierced (emotional). But I'd also say it could be the other way around too in a sense. A person could be listening emotionally and once they gained the information... the intellect part works itself into the equation. Thinking of Cornelius there. He did seem quite emotional when meeting Peter and wide open for the intellect part.

So yeah... there ya go! :lol:

Sounds good to me. :spin:

RogerW
Nov 28th 2007, 04:56 PM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.
2) An emotional response.
3) Both intellectual and emotional
4) Intellectual, then emotion follows
5) Emotional, followed by intellect
6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved
7) OtherSo the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

Rbg, this is harder to rationalize than appears. I heard the message of salvation, and without doubt I did not question that it was true. I reckon this was intellectual (1). At the end of the message I was told that if I understood the message, and desired to become saved I MUST walk down the aisle, make a public profession, and accept the Lord into my heart, and say a simple sinners prayer. This I did, and it was very emotional (2). So I reckon one could assume 1 & 2 or 3 should be my answer....but, after this intellectual, and emotional experience there was no desire on my part to really KNOW the Lord. So did this intellectual and emotional experience bring me to salvation?

Part of me says, yes, I believe God began a good work in me on that day so many years ago, but another part of me realizes that the evidence that one has become saved is a desire to KNOW the Lord. If I didn't have this desire back then, should I assume I had become saved at that very moment?

I tried to be a better person, and to become more and more in His image, but what was His image, who was I trying to imitate? Now my answer should probably be 6, because I don't know exactly when God's Spirit truly entered my heart, and gave me a desire to really KNOW Him. I only know that one day I had no desire, and then I did. Unless one lives after so-called salvation, and sees a new creation in Christ, with the old man crucified, and the new man made alive, then how can I say without doubt the exact moment of salvation? I've come to understand that salvation is by grace ALONE, and if I contribute in anyway it is no longer of grace, but grace plus my intellect, and my emotions.

Interesting question!

Blessings,
RW

Kingsdaughter
Nov 28th 2007, 05:11 PM
So keeping with the format question, I can log you down as a 6)?

Yes, I'm sorry #6...well can I pick more than one?

It was first #1(intellect, I heard the message) followed by #6( a mystery of what happened to me I can't explain) then finally #2 ( I cried and was overwelmed by a mix of emotions peace and joy).

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 09:07 PM
Yes, I'm sorry #6...well can I pick more than one?

It was first #1(intellect, I heard the message) followed by #6( a mystery of what happened to me I can't explain) then finally #2 ( I cried and was overwelmed by a mix of emotions peace and joy).

:) .

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 28th 2007, 09:28 PM
Rbg, this is harder to rationalize than appears. I heard the message of salvation, and without doubt I did not question that it was true. I reckon this was intellectual (1). At the end of the message I was told that if I understood the message, and desired to become saved I MUST walk down the aisle, make a public profession, and accept the Lord into my heart, and say a simple sinners prayer. This I did, and it was very emotional (2). So I reckon one could assume 1 & 2 or 3 should be my answer....but, after this intellectual, and emotional experience there was no desire on my part to really KNOW the Lord. So did this intellectual and emotional experience bring me to salvation?

Part of me says, yes, I believe God began a good work in me on that day so many years ago, but another part of me realizes that the evidence that one has become saved is a desire to KNOW the Lord. If I didn't have this desire back then, should I assume I had become saved at that very moment?

I tried to be a better person, and to become more and more in His image, but what was His image, who was I trying to imitate? Now my answer should probably be 6, because I don't know exactly when God's Spirit truly entered my heart, and gave me a desire to really KNOW Him. I only know that one day I had no desire, and then I did. Unless one lives after so-called salvation, and sees a new creation in Christ, with the old man crucified, and the new man made alive, then how can I say without doubt the exact moment of salvation? I've come to understand that salvation is by grace ALONE, and if I contribute in anyway it is no longer of grace, but grace plus my intellect, and my emotions.

Interesting question!

Blessings,
RW


I know that it seems hard, for this is a deep question, and one that seems to struggle for the finest grain of sand in detail... but really, the simplistic side begs to ask...is intellect without any thread of emotion? Can there be some decision or choice that does not contain, or have, or be influenced by an emotional component?


Is there such a thing as an unbiased opinion? Does choice of one thing over another state true ambivalence? Or is there an emotion behind the choice?


Making a decision for Christ, or to repent, or at agree that Jesus is God, is there any emotion behind this decision or that sides or that influences this intellectual choice?

I side that the grainiest of grains is option #3. I say that man, being created as an emotional thinking being uses/and is influenced by emotions in ever decision he has to make... and that as God gives repentance and faith as part of the ingredients of salvation that those ingredients uses man's thoughts and feelings within those gifts of response...


But I digress a bit deeper than I want to... but say my thoughts/choice is #3

Brother Mark
Nov 28th 2007, 11:13 PM
I think it's all the above for most people. Why get saved if we don't have some level of fear?

Shoot, if I wasn't afraid of going to hell, I would have never researched it out.

So for me, I had emotion, conviction and intellect all going at the same time. But when it happened, it was a miracle that I could not explain. Still can't explain it to this day. The emotion that followed was more peaceful and relief than anything else.

But when God started delivering me from my sin, oh my the emotions kicked in big time! Then praise and thanksgiving and being overwhelmed at his goodness just took over.

Amazedgrace21
Nov 28th 2007, 11:37 PM
OK..will have to go with #7..it was more of an experience like waking up..going from blindness to sight..and then the other reactions fell into place..and had "points of reference"..my heart responded, my mind reacted.

I had been intellectually aware of the Word of God..been around it for years and while I embraced the knowledge, I had never received the experience of being embraced by it..knew "all about it"..I had an emotional position towards what I knew "about"..I was very aware of this "change" at the moment it came upon me..and I had a profound "reaction" to it..

Knowing about is nothing compared to what happened when I "recognized" what transpired was actually in my soul..and as hard to put in terms as it is to explain "a rainbow" to a blind person who has never had "sight"..but one can build a picture around that experience and intellectually and emotionally respond to the experiece itself..both are mutually exclusive..like night and day..one must end for the other to begin but they do not ever co-exist as the same thing..one just reflects the presence or absence of the other..

So thats the reason for #7...all of the above but none of the above at the same time..:lol: my "reckoning" had nothing to do with me be being "reckoned with"..there was no choice once the choice became one.

alethos
Nov 28th 2007, 11:38 PM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.


2) An emotional response.


3) Both intellectual and emotional


4) Intellectual, then emotion follows


5) Emotional, followed by intellect


6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved


7) Other
So the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

In quoting A.W. Tozer "Where in the Bible are feeling and faith said to be at odds? The fact is that faith engenders feeling as certainly as life engenders motion. We can have feeling without faith, it is true, but we can never have faith without feeling."

RogerW
Nov 29th 2007, 05:01 PM
I know that it seems hard, for this is a deep question, and one that seems to struggle for the finest grain of sand in detail... but really, the simplistic side begs to ask...is intellect without any thread of emotion? Can there be some decision or choice that does not contain, or have, or be influenced by an emotional component?

Is there such a thing as an unbiased opinion? Does choice of one thing over another state true ambivalence? Or is there an emotion behind the choice?

Making a decision for Christ, or to repent, or at agree that Jesus is God, is there any emotion behind this decision or that sides or that influences this intellectual choice?

I side that the grainiest of grains is option #3. I say that man, being created as an emotional thinking being uses/and is influenced by emotions in ever decision he has to make... and that as God gives repentance and faith as part of the ingredients of salvation that those ingredients uses man's thoughts and feelings within those gifts of response...

But I digress a bit deeper than I want to... but say my thoughts/choice is #3

There is no denying that both intellect (mind) and emotion (heart) respond to salvation. But neither of these have anything to do with Christ' saving grace. I responded with my mind and heart because I had been saved, but my intellectual and emotional response to the gospel did not save me. It was not what I knew or how I felt having this knowledge of the Lord that saved me. I could not have known or felt had I not already been saved.

When we begin to think that our intellect (what we know about Christ), and our emotions (how we respond to what we know about Christ) are necessary for salvation, then salvation becomes grace, plus my understanding, and response to saving grace. This cannot be because even tiny infants, and mentally impaired can be saved. Consider John the Baptist, saved from his mother's womb. Did the fact that he was saved as an infant depend on what he knew and how he responded while still in the womb? Of course not! His salvation, just like ours was by grace alone, and he, like we, respond physically (mind & heart) to this knowledge, as we grow in faith and grace.

The Lord sees His elect from heaven and says He will seek and save those who are lost. He knows who we are because our names have been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. In time the Lord uses the gospel message to open the ears and change the hearts of all who will be saved, and none of these will be lost. And all of these will respond intellectually and emotionally, not to become saved, but because we have already been saved.

Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 29th 2007, 07:53 PM
There is no denying that both intellect (mind) and emotion (heart) respond to salvation. But neither of these have anything to do with Christ' saving grace. I responded with my mind and heart because I had been saved, but my intellectual and emotional response to the gospel did not save me.

//




True, but this goes away from the post's question, however slight... As pieces of a puzzle completes a picture -- being saved is more than just mental agreement/assent to the finished work of Christ, wouldn't you agree?

Is Christ's saving grace applied to all? Then knowledge is not a requirement to agree or disagree and I don't see scripture suggesting that, for there are those who deny Him.

Is then Christ's saving grace to all who just agree? I don't see that either, for there are wheat and there are tares, there are sheep and there are goats.

So to the post's question, the assumption is that all who reply are stating that they know Christ as Savior, and thus I ask from a personal experience level, was the journey to this 'event' - one of logic, one of emotion, one of logic or emotion coming before the other, of both concurrent, or neither at all.

So when you [and I] responded, why did you respond the way you did - is a good question to ask, but I'm trying to focus on the how did you respond portion?


My position is that salvation is all of the Lord, and that He works in the hearts AND minds of those He has deemed His -- to fulfill the purposes of His will.... giving both repentance and faith as responses to His elect, yet His elect may not know His efforts within them at this point of time. But to those who do know Christ as Savior, how did it become so? Through intelligence, through emotion, etc....

I hope this makes sense?

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 30th 2007, 02:22 PM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’

So here is my tally this far... and if I misassigned a position, let me know


1) An intellectual response.
2) An emotional response.
3) Both intellectual and emotional..... Theo, PP, RbG
4) Intellectual, then emotion follows
5) Emotional, followed by intellect........ McGyver
6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved.... TM, Friend, KingsD, RogerW
7) Other........ DHT, BrotherM, AG21


If all precincts have been accounted for, looks like #6 has a slight edge, and #3 and #7 follow next.... What surprises me a bit is that #1 or #2 didn't have a definitive foothold in this unscientific poll; for with the folks I'm talking with, #1 is their position.... interesting...:hmm:

Quickened
Nov 30th 2007, 02:58 PM
Well i would say picking the first three are not really an option for me. Here is why.

Have you heard the term Intellectual Christians? People that know about things in the bible, the story of Christ etc etc. But they dont really seem to be saved. A relience on intellect isnt the best bet here.

Emotions. Isnt this a can of worms? :lol: Are emotions involved when one becomes saved? Yes. There is something about the actuality of the situation. When the truth is opened up to you.... it is an emotional experience. But at the same time i shy away from saying that emotions are this certain part because I think salvation is different for everyone. Not everyone is saved in the exact same process therefore i am led to believe that not everyone is a complete emotional wreck. There are a varience of emotions that one would go through.

The second part that makes me shy away from that answer is that people can at times use their emotions as a basis of their salvation. People will doubt their salvation because they are "not feeling close to God" or because they "dont feel that joy they once had". You can probably see where i am going with that.

Not to mention the certain churches that over emphasize emotions in service. "I really felt the spirit today" (as a way of gauging the service)

The way i see it there is an understanding. A life changing one. The kind of change where one can stop and look back and say "I was saved when i was 19" because the mind set of that person changed. Their outlook and view. At that point they seek to learn using that intellect we have been speaking about that perhaps that then draws on the emotions but first and foremost I see that we are given an understanding.

Clock me in at 7: Other (understanding)

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 30th 2007, 08:08 PM
Well i would say picking the first three are not really an option for me. Here is why.

Have you heard the term Intellectual Christians? People that know about things in the bible, the story of Christ etc etc. But they dont really seem to be saved. A relience on intellect isnt the best bet here.

Emotions. Isnt this a can of worms? :lol: Are emotions involved when one becomes saved? Yes. There is something about the actuality of the situation. When the truth is opened up to you.... it is an emotional experience. But at the same time i shy away from saying that emotions are this certain part because I think salvation is different for everyone. Not everyone is saved in the exact same process therefore i am led to believe that not everyone is a complete emotional wreck. There are a varience of emotions that one would go through.

The second part that makes me shy away from that answer is that people can at times use their emotions as a basis of their salvation. People will doubt their salvation because they are "not feeling close to God" or because they "dont feel that joy they once had". You can probably see where i am going with that.

Not to mention the certain churches that over emphasize emotions in service. "I really felt the spirit today" (as a way of gauging the service)

The way i see it there is an understanding. A life changing one. The kind of change where one can stop and look back and say "I was saved when i was 19" because the mind set of that person changed. Their outlook and view. At that point they seek to learn using that intellect we have been speaking about that perhaps that then draws on the emotions but first and foremost I see that we are given an understanding.

Clock me in at 7: Other (understanding)

Thanks for the feedback and Vote for #7.... Not wanting to persuade but just to offer a comment about choice/decisions... is there ever a choice that does NOT contain both logic and emotions? Or are there choices that are ambivalent to any feelings? Does flipping on a light switch to light a room have any intellect and emotion/feeling/desire behind the action?


Emotions don't need to be fall on the floor, screaming and shouting responses, but can they not be joyful, with relief, restful etc on the positive side, and angry, embarrassed, disappointed, etc on the negative side?


The reference point of one's experience can dictate how one does respond to any situation [choice], but were experiences come in and miss-set the response to be negative based on false understandings, so too the balance of intellect [wisdom] where the true Gospel is presented and understood... that's why I see #3 as my best summary...

They don't work 50-50, but they do work in tandem and contribute with the character and response to the Gospel call, for which I see the path always leading through the same narrow gate: humility, repentance, [with sorrow for sinfulness] faith, submission, etc... and then a new creation with Christ living within.... But I that's how I see it...

dancedwithdolphin
Nov 30th 2007, 09:34 PM
#7 is what I will go with- other.

I dont believe either (emotion or intellect) has to do with salvation. Salvation is a revelation from God. At least that is the way it was for me. He revealed to me in one glimpse the truth about myself, and that I needed him to save me from what he showed me. In that very moment, of that revealed truth I was forever changed.

Whispering Grace
Nov 30th 2007, 09:42 PM
My first response to the regenerating work of God in my heart was emotional. I fell deeply, passionately, and desperately in love with the Lord before the "intellectual" side kicked in.

When the Lord first started drawing me to Him, my response was to cry. I had NO idea why I was crying in church until later when the Lord lifted the veil from my eyes and everything (including the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture) became clear to me. Then I was able to look back and see just when the Lord started drawing me to Him.

Funny thing.....my response when I am overcome by the wonder and beauty and grace of God is still to cry. I don't think a day has gone by since I was saved that I haven't wept tears of gratitude, joy, and love for the One who saved me. :)

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 30th 2007, 10:57 PM
#7 is what I will go with- other.

I dont believe either (emotion or intellect) has to do with salvation. Salvation is a revelation from God. At least that is the way it was for me. He revealed to me in one glimpse the truth about myself, and that I needed him to save me from what he showed me. In that very moment, of that revealed truth I was forever changed.

Hi DwD,

Just to clarify the post... the question is about how one responded and not about what is salvation....

I'll put you down as a #7, but your explaination tells me that you might thing the question is about something else....

Redeemed by Grace
Nov 30th 2007, 10:59 PM
My first response to the regenerating work of God in my heart was emotional. I fell deeply, passionately, and desperately in love with the Lord before the "intellectual" side kicked in.

When the Lord first started drawing me to Him, my response was to cry. I had NO idea why I was crying in church until later when the Lord lifted the veil from my eyes and everything (including the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture) became clear to me. Then I was able to look back and see just when the Lord started drawing me to Him.

Funny thing.....my response when I am overcome by the wonder and beauty and grace of God is still to cry. I don't think a day has gone by since I was saved that I haven't wept tears of gratitude, joy, and love for the One who saved me. :)


Howdy WG!!!!


Looks like you are the first #5...:)


Thanks for sharing your testimony....

RogerW
Dec 1st 2007, 03:18 PM
The OP asks, "does emotion play a role in salvation?" A simple no was not included in your choices. If it had been I would have chosen "no"! If my emotions or even my intellect play a part in my becoming saved, then how could I ever know with assurance that I have been saved? My emotions (heart) can and sometimes do deceive me, and my intellect goes only so far as what I understand at any given time. How could I trust so great a salvation to those things that proceed from within me?

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 1st 2007, 05:11 PM
The OP asks, "does emotion play a role in salvation?" A simple no was not included in your choices. If it had been I would have chosen "no"! If my emotions or even my intellect play a part in my becoming saved, then how could I ever know with assurance that I have been saved? My emotions (heart) can and sometimes do deceive me, and my intellect goes only so far as what I understand at any given time. How could I trust so great a salvation to those things that proceed from within me?

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi RogerW!

Not sure I'm following your logic here... :)

So let me ask for clarification, and use math as an example.

Did you always know how to solve a quadratic equation? If like me, I'd assume not. I'd also assume that someone brought to you the teaching, but you had to supply the learning, both in desire and logic to what you know today - compared to what was being taught. Many permutations as to what happens next, but if one understands how to - when they didn't know before, it's them that changed to the wisdom being presented and not their wisdom to the quadratic equation.

So does the teaching change what a quadratic equation is? Does understanding it also change what it is? No, it doesn't. But is understanding required for one to use it?

So then I'll go out on a limb and say that there are many folks in life that heard the teaching of how to solve for a quadratic equation and try as they can, were never able to understand how and maybe the why needed anyway. And there maybe folks who in their early days were able to, maybe after a few times of instruction... but today, since they don't use it, have forgotten how.... And there may be also folks who never heard what even a quadratic equation is and thus never have a desire to learn how to solve by learning how.

So to the point of the post as I intended.... within the OP I also ask:

"I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as: "

Where as I define 7 options, assuming that everyone would agree that there is a human response needed to understand....

Now my position here at the boards is that God gives all parts, including the changing of my mind and heart to complete the offering, and over time have learned that it wasn't my intellect or emotion, but God's Spirit of regeneration within me.

So no problem to change your reply to #7, but I hope I was clearer as to what my intent is to explore.... in man's reply to God, does the saved reply with intellect, emotion, a mixture of the two, as a mystery to you, or other?

RogerW
Dec 1st 2007, 07:39 PM
Hi RogerW!
Not sure I'm following your logic here... :)
So let me ask for clarification, and use math as an example.

Sorry! Don't mean to be difficult, and I don't really believe you and I differ in understanding of grace alone. Perhaps if the question "Does emotion play a part in salvation?", had been worded "does emotion and intellect play a part after salvation", I would not be making what appears to be much ado about nothing.



Now my position here at the boards is that God gives all parts, including the changing of my mind and heart to complete the offering, and over time have learned that it wasn't my intellect or emotion, but God's Spirit of regeneration within me.

Maybe this is part of the reason for my puzzling over the wording of the question. I believe that salvation, the changing of the mind and heart come as a result of His imputed righteousness, and I don't see salvation as an offering. Salvation is a free gift GIVEN to all who are saved. We're told that salvation is an offer we must accept, believe, or receive in order to be saved, but this makes salvation dependent upon my effort, my work, and thereby is no longer of grace alone. Spiritual birth is given us the same way physical birth was. We did not intellectually understand being physically born, and we did not emotionally respond in love and gratitude upon physical birth. So it is with spiritual birth.

When we hear the gospel and the Holy Spirit applies the Word to our hearts and minds we have been born again. Salvation isn't effective only after we accept, believe or receive it, salvation is effective the moment we are born again. Just as we had absolutely nothing to contribute to our physical birth, neither do we have anything to contribute to our spiritual re-birth.



So no problem to change your reply to #7, but I hope I was clearer as to what my intent is to explore.... in man's reply to God, does the saved reply with intellect, emotion, a mixture of the two, as a mystery to you, or other?

Yes, you were a bit clearer. When we are born again there absolutely will be both intellectual growth as we grow in faith and doctrine, and there will also be incredible emotions of gratitude and love upon understanding the depth of the great salvation we have received through nothing of ourselves and all of Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 1st 2007, 09:42 PM
Sorry! Don't mean to be difficult, and I don't really believe you and I differ in understanding of grace alone. Perhaps if the question "Does emotion play a part in salvation?", had been worded "does emotion and intellect play a part after salvation", I would not be making what appears to be much ado about nothing.



Maybe this is part of the reason for my puzzling over the wording of the question. I believe that salvation, the changing of the mind and heart come as a result of His imputed righteousness, and I don't see salvation as an offering. Salvation is a free gift GIVEN to all who are saved. We're told that salvation is an offer we must accept, believe, or receive in order to be saved, but this makes salvation dependent upon my effort, my work, and thereby is no longer of grace alone. Spiritual birth is given us the same way physical birth was. We did not intellectually understand being physically born, and we did not emotionally respond in love and gratitude upon physical birth. So it is with spiritual birth.

When we hear the gospel and the Holy Spirit applies the Word to our hearts and minds we have been born again. Salvation isn't effective only after we accept, believe or receive it, salvation is effective the moment we are born again. Just as we had absolutely nothing to contribute to our physical birth, neither do we have anything to contribute to our spiritual re-birth.



Yes, you were a bit clearer. When we are born again there absolutely will be both intellectual growth as we grow in faith and doctrine, and there will also be incredible emotions of gratitude and love upon understanding the depth of the great salvation we have received through nothing of ourselves and all of Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

I guess I’m surprised to learn this about your position… for just as you responded and replied to my last post, I see the same need to responding and replying to the Gospel…

Let’s say there are 3 people who the hear the Gospel message together. The first person, let’s call him A, responds to say ‘yes this is true’… and next person, let’s say his name is B, he says nothing. And the 3rd man, let’s call him C, says ‘wow, I see my sin, I see God’s grace towards me in Christ Jesus, and I see now the need to change my life and to live and believe the commands of Jesus as God’.…

Now are all 3 saved, as the word shows?

All heard the Gospel… so is hearing just enough or is there a response to the Gospel that completes the picture of salvation.

The bible tells us that no one seeks God and that none are righteous, so none can respond on their one initiative. God has to begin the good work within the believer with saving faith, so is that work man’s or God’s?

Any wisdom that we have is from above and not from within self… for Jesus even tells Peter that God gave him that knowledge about Jesus being the Christ.


So as you and I hear the word and we say amen - by maybe rep points or another post in support, God works within lives - both to accept/understanding/respond/live/walk salvation’s call, for there is a need to respond, and to understanding of His work within us…

So unless Man B is saved for just hearing and not reacting, and Man A is saved for not changing his life, then Man C, being given by God ears to hear and eyes to see for hearing and understanding and identifying and turning to the Gospel, must not be needed.

Maybe if we had the capability to hold a true conversation, we might be on the same page, but by a post here and a post there, it seems that we have a difference here and that one post at a time may bring this to a mutual understanding...

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:50 AM
Hi Roger,
I guess I’m surprised to learn this about your position… for just as you responded and replied to my last post, I see the same need to responding and replying to the Gospel…

For the one who has been born again there will be, without doubt a response that will be compelled by the prompting of the Spirit within. This response comes because we have been saved, not to complete salvation.



Let’s say there are 3 people who the hear the Gospel message together. The first person, let’s call him A, responds to say ‘yes this is true’… and next person, let’s say his name is B, he says nothing. And the 3rd man, let’s call him C, says ‘wow, I see my sin, I see God’s grace towards me in Christ Jesus, and I see now the need to change my life and to live and believe the commands of Jesus as God’.…

Now are all 3 saved, as the word shows?

All heard the Gospel… so is hearing just enough or is there a response to the Gospel that completes the picture of salvation.

That which saves is grace alone! There is nothing that MUST be added to complete salvation. If there MUST of necessity be a response from us to complete salvation, how are infants and mentally impaired saved? John the Baptist clearly shows us that even infants, still in their mother's womb can be saved. Was salvation, receiving the Holy Spirit while still in the womb different for John the Baptist and all other elect? Or does salvation of John the Baptist show us that salvation is all of grace alone, and none of us?

God has chosen preaching of the gospel to bring to faith those who are given ears to hear. Once we have been born again, as I have repeatedly stated, there will be a response in our lives, not to complete salvation, but because we have been saved. This response, as I tried to say in my first reply, comes differently for different people. Some can know with blessed assurance that something is different and they tell me they know almost the exact moment this change took place. For others, like myself, the exact moment of salvation is uncertain.



The bible tells us that no one seeks God and that none are righteous, so none can respond on their one initiative. God has to begin the good work within the believer with saving faith, so is that work man’s or God’s?

I believe the faith we receive comes from imputation of His righteousness. Like you have said, we have no saving faith until God begins faith in us. It is absolutely the work of God that any will believe (have faith).

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe [to have faith] on him whom he hath sent.



Any wisdom that we have is from above and not from within self… for Jesus even tells Peter that God gave him that knowledge about Jesus being the Christ.



So as you and I hear the word and we say amen - by maybe rep points or another post in support, God works within lives - both to accept/understanding/respond/live/walk salvation’s call, for there is a need to respond, and to understanding of His work within us…

As I've already said, it is absolutely the work of God within His elect to bring them to salvation. And there is also a response through faith and repentance...but, again, this response is NOT to complete salvation, but because we have been born again. Why do we have this response to so great a salvation? Because God is working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.



So unless Man B is saved for just hearing and not reacting, and Man A is saved for not changing his life, then Man C, being given by God ears to hear and eyes to see for hearing and understanding and identifying and turning to the Gospel, must not be needed.

Does Scripture show us that those who are born again will react to salvation, or that they must react to complete salvation? If there is no change in man B, then his hearing was physical, and without spiritual life. If God never works in man A to both will and do of His good pleasure, then he too had physical hearing, without spiritual life. When one is given ears to hear, eyes to see, and imputed with His righteousness unto repentance and faith, then there will (at some point) be a change in his life. The way we know with assurance that we have been saved is through changed lives. Once we are saved we long to KNOW the Lord, we desire to grow in His image, we want to pray, and meditate on His Word day and night.



Maybe if we had the capability to hold a true conversation, we might be on the same page, but by a post here and a post there, it seems that we have a difference here and that one post at a time may bring this to a mutual understanding...

We both understand that salvation is by grace alone. Where I cannot agree is saying that salvation can only be complete when we respond. It's not that I believe that we won't respond, but that our intellectual and emotional response comes because we have been saved. How else can we understand we are altogether dead in sins, and saved by grace, if salvation is not complete until we respond? If salvation is not complete until we respond, how can it not be both grace and our good works? But if we respond to the great salvation we have already received, is it not because of the work that God has already completed within us, and therefore not of ourselves, but the gift of God?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 2nd 2007, 02:25 AM
For the one who has been born again there will be, without doubt a response that will be compelled by the prompting of the Spirit within. This response comes because we have been saved, not to complete salvation.

I’m thinking semantics are coming into play to the paragraph above, for I see your point within this sentence and agree… However - to the basic example of the thieves on the cross beside Jesus, one heard, understood, and responded in asking to be with Christ , the other did not….

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Looks like the response is not because we have been saved, but in the asking to be….



That which saves is grace alone! There is nothing that MUST be added to complete salvation. If there MUST of necessity be a response from us to complete salvation, how are infants and mentally impaired saved? John the Baptist clearly shows us that even infants, still in their mother's womb can be saved.

Oh oh, you are not going to like my answer then…. I agree that God destines His children before they are born, and John the Baptist’s parents had the privilege to know that before John was born that their child would be God’s implement for the kingdom. But that doesn’t mean that each parent has the same knowledge, nor does this say that every child born is saved if they die…. It’s admirable to hope this, and John MacArthur does a neat hermeneutics of scripture using a compare and a contrast between David’s sons - to show that God does take the infant and David will see him again, and takes Absalom - and David cries his eyes out because he senses that he is lost forever, but scripturally, I can't say that every infant who dies is saved – especially not because of John the Baptist’s parents had an angel tell them about John’s salvation, so applying every infant must have this as well…. This also says that those folks in the world, maybe the farthest places where civilization doesn’t touch yet - who never heard the gospel -- will also be saved, for what makes them any different from John the Baptist, or infant or the mentally impaired…. Sorry… but I can’t go there with confidence, only hope - hope that babes and mentally challenged folks are in God’s hands, but I can’t teach that for sure, for scripture is not definitive that it is so.






Was salvation, receiving the Holy Spirit while still in the womb different for John the Baptist and all other elect? Or does salvation of John the Baptist show us that salvation is all of grace alone, and none of us?

Well my friend, it’s taken a year or so, but our doctrines are showing differences… My salvation is not based on John the Baptist… My salvation is base on Jesus Christ and his work on the cross – as you will agree. However, I heard the gospel many times and thought I was saved many times, but in reality, was not until my appointed time when Christ opened my heart to understanding the true path. I was not saved until that time…but to God that time was always… But to my life, it was a time and a place that had to happen… Just as Christ had to die…. Events have to happen.




God has chosen preaching of the gospel to bring to faith those who are given ears to hear. Once we have been born again, as I have repeatedly stated, there will be a response in our lives, not to complete salvation, but because we have been saved. This response, as I tried to say in my first reply, comes differently for different people. Some can know with blessed assurance that something is different and they tell me they know almost the exact moment this change took place. For others, like myself, the exact moment of salvation is uncertain.

Here are our differences…. God’s work…Yes… Man’s work… No… Agree… God’s working in and through men… Yes. When you say once we have been born again, are you saying this from a human perspective or from the godly perspective that I think you have been trying to position with John the Baptist?


The words ‘once’ and 'bring to faith' shows the need for an event…a starting point, and your sentence shows that this starting point is a life-changing event… This is where my question focuses. And saying yes is just not enough.


God gives the response within His child not to complete salvation, but to work in our heart to know that we are His… for we are God’s love gifts to Jesus, God leads us to Him, and God works within our hearts to understand who He is… so really Roger, our humanness is somewhat being compromised in the most perfect way, where as our eyes have been opened, and our hearts and our mouths have been given words of repentance and praise and worship, while still being all from us….



We both understand that salvation is by grace alone. Where I cannot agree is saying that salvation can only be complete when we respond. It's not that I believe that we won't respond, but that our intellectual and emotional response comes because we have been saved.

But what if it were God doing it through you? As dead men, we have to be made alive to hear know and respond, and it’s His Spirit, by His word that makes us so. So what if the response by you was actually God in you responding? Let me ask this question… is repentance from sin part of the Gospel?



How else can we understand we are altogether dead in sins, and saved by grace, if salvation is not complete until we respond?

I’m going to take a chance here and say that I’m not saying salvation is incomplete… but the call is incomplete until a response happens… And no one will respond, except for God’s regeneration in the heart of the elect to hear, act, respond and obey. Before the foundation of the world... destined for a time and place... just like the woman at the well.... that was her time to know... and she responded.



If salvation is not complete until we respond, how can it not be both grace and our good works? But if we respond to the great salvation we have already received, is it not because of the work that God has already completed within us, and therefore not of ourselves, but the gift of God?

Same reply as above salvation is complete by the finished work of Christ… but applicationally, you and I and ever one else have been brought down the narrow path to 1) hear, 2) understand, 3) respond, 4) live for Christ…and as you said before, by God Himself… for you and I and others are his handiwork for His glory.

For God’s Glory…

RoadWarrior
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:46 AM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.


2) An emotional response.


3) Both intellectual and emotional


4) Intellectual, then emotion follows


5) Emotional, followed by intellect


6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved


7) Other
So the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

Other. Salvation is a spiritual experience. Why did you not put that as one of the options?

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:33 PM
Other. Salvation is a spiritual experience. Why did you not put that as one of the options?

Can you define or describe what a spritual experience is? If you can define it, I'll consider adding it...

RoadWarrior
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:17 PM
Can you define or describe what a spritual experience is? If you can define it, I'll consider adding it...

How about some scriptures that speak of it?
1 Co 2:14
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV


Emotion and intellect are things of the natural man. We might use our intellect and experience emotions in the process of salvation. But in order to receive salvation, it is necessary to transcend the natural physical aspect of our being, and allow God to communicate with us Spirit to spirit. People speak of this as "let go and let God" or as "giving up control" or "surrendering".

Jesus said it this way:
Jn 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
...
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2007, 07:53 PM
Greetings Rbg,


I’m thinking semantics are coming into play to the paragraph above, for I see your point within this sentence and agree… However - to the basic example of the thieves on the cross beside Jesus, one heard, understood, and responded in asking to be with Christ , the other did not….

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Looks like the response is not because we have been saved, but in the asking to be….

Both criminals were witnesses to the same circumstances, yet only one understood Jesus was truly the Christ Messiah...why? Both criminals had heard of Christ, and both acknowledge Who He is, yet only one was given eyes to see and ears to hear, and imputed with His righteousness unto faith, enabling him to ask Jesus to "remember me when You come in Your kingdom." What unsaved man asks to be remembered in the kingdom? Remember, before we are saved, "there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." The criminal was not asking to be saved, but asking to be remembered because he had been saved.



Oh oh, you are not going to like my answer then…. I agree that God destines His children before they are born, and John the Baptist’s parents had the privilege to know that before John was born that their child would be God’s implement for the kingdom. But that doesn’t mean that each parent has the same knowledge, nor does this say that every child born is saved if they die…. It’s admirable to hope this, and John MacArthur does a neat hermeneutics of scripture using a compare and a contrast between David’s sons - to show that God does take the infant and David will see him again, and takes Absalom - and David cries his eyes out because he senses that he is lost forever, but scripturally, I can't say that every infant who dies is saved – especially not because of John the Baptist’s parents had an angel tell them about John’s salvation, so applying every infant must have this as well…. This also says that those folks in the world, maybe the farthest places where civilization doesn’t touch yet - who never heard the gospel -- will also be saved, for what makes them any different from John the Baptist, or infant or the mentally impaired…. Sorry… but I can’t go there with confidence, only hope - hope that babes and mentally challenged folks are in God’s hands, but I can’t teach that for sure, for scripture is not definitive that it is so.

I never said that John the Baptist being saved while still in the womb shows that all infants are saved. Nor did I say that all parents have the same knowledge as John's parents of their child's salvation while still in the womb. I was simply using the example of John the Baptist's salvation to show that salvation is of grace alone, and nothing of us.

I believe that since salvation is by grace alone, then even the elect in the most remote corners of the world will be saved. It's because elect infants, elect mentally impaired, and those elect who have yet to hear the gospel are in the hands of God that I know with certainty they will be saved by grace alone. All who are predestined elect will be saved, and not one of them will be lost.

God knows His elect, and has written their names in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. All of these will in some manner, or some way hear with ears of faith, see with eyes of faith, and be born again just as God has promised. Not one who has been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world will be lost. It matters not whether they die as infants, or in old age, or without physical intellect or emotions, and I can't tell you exactly how those elect unto salvation in remote corners of the world, who appear never to hear the gospel will be saved, but I know without doubt that every elect person will be born again by grace of God alone.



Well my friend, it’s taken a year or so, but our doctrines are showing differences… My salvation is not based on John the Baptist… My salvation is base on Jesus Christ and his work on the cross – as you will agree. However, I heard the gospel many times and thought I was saved many times, but in reality, was not until my appointed time when Christ opened my heart to understanding the true path. I was not saved until that time…but to God that time was always… But to my life, it was a time and a place that had to happen… Just as Christ had to die…. Events have to happen.

Your salvation, my salvation, and the salvation of John the Baptist alike, are all based on the work of Jesus Christ. If hearing the gospel were all it takes to become saved, then why aren't all who hear born again? Scripture tells us faith comes by hearing the Word of God, so shouldn't everyone who hears receive saving faith? Why do some hear, and they are never saved? I agree that salvation comes to all of us at the time appointed, the time when the Holy Spirit enters in, and brings life where there had been only darkness. Yes, your time of salvation, and my time of salvation happened exactly when God predestined it would.




Here are our differences…. God’s work…Yes… Man’s work… No… Agree… God’s working in and through men… Yes. When you say once we have been born again, are you saying this from a human perspective or from the godly perspective that I think you have been trying to position with John the Baptist?

The Lord working salvation in the lives of His elect is not always the same for everyone. For instance there are not many examples of infants being saved while still in the womb as with John the Baptist. Did John know he was saved while still in infancy?

Scripture speaks of salvation in tenses, as we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will finally be saved. When the names of the elect were written in heaven before the world began, I believe from God's perspective we were saved. Just as Christ is spoken of as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, yet He had to literally die on the cross, and be literally resurrected from the grave in time/history. So too all who are predestined to eternal life. We must live through history, we have to be physically born, and we will one day be literally saved in time/history. But God sees His elect through the righteousness of Christ, as though they are already redeemed, and in time makes certain they will be literally redeemed. When God gives new birth to His elect children, it is at that moment we receive the indwelling Spirit that testifies to our spirit that we have become children of the living God.



The words ‘once’ and 'bring to faith' shows the need for an event…a starting point, and your sentence shows that this starting point is a life-changing event… This is where my question focuses. And saying yes is just not enough.

For the elect of God the answer will always be yes because God is faithful and will keep His promise. Does that mean the answer for every elect will be yes the first time we hear the message of salvation? Not according to your new birth and mine, but the answer will finally be yes for every elect child at some point in time. This is the starting point for His elect in this life, and yes, it most certainly is a life changing event.



God gives the response within His child not to complete salvation, but to work in our heart to know that we are His… for we are God’s love gifts to Jesus, God leads us to Him, and God works within our hearts to understand who He is… so really Roger, our humanness is somewhat being compromised in the most perfect way, where as our eyes have been opened, and our hearts and our mouths have been given words of repentance and praise and worship, while still being all from us….

Absolutely...AMEN! We are able to repent, believe, and praise and worship Him because we KNOW we have been made spiritually alive. We are the ones whose eyes have been opened, and hearts and mouths have been given words of repentance, praise, and worship, and it is all possible because He is working in me to both will and do of His good pleasure. The Bible tells us "work out your own salvation". But a man cannot work out what he does not have. We must first have salvation before we can work it out. How are we able to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (sanctification)?...God is working in us, enabling us to. It is His prompting, His Holy Spirit, His gracious provision, but we are the ones who MUST work because we have been saved.



Let me ask this question… is repentance from sin part of the Gospel?

All of mankind is commanded to repent and believe...but I believe the gospel is what Christ has done for us, where repentance and faith are the result of the salvation Christ has wrought in us through the hearing of the gospel, and His imputed righteousness.




I’m going to take a chance here and say that I’m not saying salvation is incomplete… but the call is incomplete until a response happens… And no one will respond, except for God’s regeneration in the heart of the elect to hear, act, respond and obey. Before the foundation of the world... destined for a time and place... just like the woman at the well.... that was her time to know... and she responded.

"The call is incomplete until a response happens"...How does this respond to "many are called, but few are chosen"? We know that the message of the cross calls many into the covenant body (church, external), but not all who are called into the church are chosen unto eternal life. So being called will not necessarily evoke a response, because the only ones who will respond are those called, chosen, and faithful (Rev 17:14), and all of these will without a doubt respond to salvation through the power of the Spirit living in them.

I completely agree with the rest of your statement.



Same reply as above salvation is complete by the finished work of Christ… but applicationally, you and I and ever one else have been brought down the narrow path to 1) hear, 2) understand, 3) respond, 4) live for Christ…and as you said before, by God Himself… for you and I and others are his handiwork for His glory.

For God’s Glory…

Absolute agreement...AMEN!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 2nd 2007, 07:57 PM
Other. Salvation is a spiritual experience. Why did you not put that as one of the options?

Very good point Road Warrior! I too should have said salvation is spiritual, i.e. His Spirit testifying to our spirit that we have become children of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

mikebr
Dec 2nd 2007, 08:14 PM
If God is Spirit, can he be anything other than emotion and intellect?

RoadWarrior
Dec 2nd 2007, 08:24 PM
If God is Spirit, can he be anything other than emotion and intellect?

Yes. He is Spirit. Those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Spirit is "other than" emotion and intellect.

hootinannie
Dec 3rd 2007, 02:24 AM
Emotion and intellect are part of the SOUL, the spirit is distinct from the soul....so YES...God IS "other than emotion and intellect"...He is Spirit.

RoadWarrior
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:37 AM
Does emotion play a role in ‘being saved?’


I’m having a very interesting conversation with a few folks about salvation and the discussion has turned to how one becomes saved… To the point of salvation, I’d like to know from the folks here if you see that salvation’s call on your part as:


1) An intellectual response.


2) An emotional response.


3) Both intellectual and emotional


4) Intellectual, then emotion follows


5) Emotional, followed by intellect


6) A mystery as to knowing how you know you 1st became saved


7) Other
So the scenario is that you heard the Gospel message and something happened to you in reply to what you heard. Which of the 7 above responses best describes your personal response.


A few assumptions: Being saved means the same thing to all respondants; that there was a one time 'event' in one's life that this 'event' happened; Life changed because of this 'event'

Redeemed,

I have enjoyed thinking about the answer to this thread. It helped me to clarify for myself what it means that salvation is a spiritual thing.

If we think it is emotional, we can be jerked around by our feelings. When we feel self-pity for example, we might think we are not really saved after all.

If we think it is intellectual, we might think that those who are smart are more likely to be saved than those who are not. Or we might think we have to figure out all the answers to all the doctrinal questions that come up. Guess what, we can't.

If it is by the spirit, then whatever our emotions might be doing (up or down), we can have assurance that we are still saved. Our salvation, our relationship with the Lord, doesn't depend on our being happy or feeling good.

Whatever intellectual winds of doctrine might blow, we can have assurance that we are still saved, even if we don't understand or if we disagree with the debates that are going on. Our salvation doesn't depend on our being smart.

God is so good!

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:04 PM
Redeemed,

I have enjoyed thinking about the answer to this thread. It helped me to clarify for myself what it means that salvation is a spiritual thing.
Praise God!



If we think it is emotional, we can be jerked around by our feelings. When we feel self-pity for example, we might think we are not really saved after all.

Agree 100%



If we think it is intellectual, we might think that those who are smart are more likely to be saved than those who are not. Or we might think we have to figure out all the answers to all the doctrinal questions that come up. Guess what, we can't.

As written, agree 100%



If it is by the spirit, then whatever our emotions might be doing (up or down), we can have assurance that we are still saved. Our salvation, our relationship with the Lord, doesn't depend on our being happy or feeling good.

God’s Spirit of regenerating the believer is a 100% prerequisite to the believer’s hearing, understanding and responding to the Gospel….

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

This portion is the semantics portion that Roger and I have been trying to iron out via a post here and a post there…. I’ve been asking and thus saying that God, who is working within you, does He give you intellect in understanding the Gospels call of response, or emotion, or both, or one first, then the other follows, or something else that makes you respond that you can’t explain. [For God works on hearts of men and kings to the counsel of His will]

Each apostle had a personal encounter with the living God; each was given a choice to follow Christ or to go back home. Each disciple used their mind and their heart in response. It’s not an argument from me that God’s Spirit is at work, but the point of the post and question is in a human response that Jesus asks for…

John 6:65-68
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

God elects and draws and chooses and yet the elect is required to respond as shown above… Not that this is the focus of the thread, but the point is towards the response is it intellectual and/or emotional? The assumption is that it’s all God’s work in salvation’s call… for I believe He also gives the response... but a response is needed none-the-less.





Whatever intellectual winds of doctrine might blow, we can have assurance that we are still saved, even if we don't understand or if we disagree with the debates that are going on. Our salvation doesn't depend on our being smart.

I agree. The focus of this post is not about our being smart or our being emotional in saving us, but about how God works in us to save us…

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

But does He give just intelligence to respond to the Gospel message, or just emotion, or both or etc…?

That’s were I’m trying to drive…. I say that somehow, some way, that God has seen to call me his child before the foundation of the world and on an August day some 36 years ago, He opened my heart and mind to the truth of the Gospel and I responded in faith -- [to His eternal past decree for me] -- the new faith that He Himself gave me [that I didn’t see as His faith until years latter]. My testimony was that this date, was an obvious reaching of the Lord Jesus to me to redeemed me from my sinfulness, and as Paul and all the other disciple did, responded to the call… as God directed.



God is so good!

A big AMEN!

RoadWarrior
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:00 PM
God’s Spirit of regenerating the believer is a 100% prerequisite to the believer’s hearing, understanding and responding to the Gospel….

Well, RBG, I fear that we are about to part company, since I am a non-Calvinist. But I'll respond to some things in this post before I go.



John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


This is a favorite proof-text of Calvinists, but have you ever done a search on the word "draw" to see the whole counsel of the Bible on it? It might modify your understanding a bit. I'll offer just one.

Jn 12:32-33
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
NKJV

This doesn't say, I will draw only my elect to myself.



This portion is the semantics portion that Roger and I have been trying to iron out via a post here and a post there…. I’ve been asking and thus saying that God, who is working within you, does He give you intellect in understanding the Gospels call of response, or emotion, or both, or one first, then the other follows, or something else that makes you respond that you can’t explain. [For God works on hearts of men and kings to the counsel of His will]


It is true that intellect and emotion get involved in our relationship with God. Those are our ways of interpreting spiritual things. But it is the "something else" that feels the draw and responds. Think of your own testimony. Did you intellectually analyze God and decide it was a good thing to follow His ways? Did you feel bad one day and somebody told you a nice story about God and decided if you followed His ways you would feel good all the time? If either of these are the way you came to God, you are missing something vitally important. If you have never come to God in spirit, you have yet to experience what it means to be born again.



Each apostle had a personal encounter with the living God; each was given a choice to follow Christ or to go back home. Each disciple used their mind and their heart in response. It’s not an argument from me that God’s Spirit is at work, but the point of the post and question is in a human response that Jesus asks for…


See, this makes my point! Jesus spoke to them in spirit, and they responded in intellect, and could not follow Him because what He offers is not accessible by intellect.



John 6:65-68


Go back and read your quoted scripture in context. Jesus has just given them a test. They failed.
Jn 6:53-58
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." NKJV

The attempts of man to interpret this text by intellect or emotion result in turning away from Jesus.



God elects and draws and chooses and yet the elect is required to respond as shown above… Not that this is the focus of the thread, but the point is towards the response is it intellectual and/or emotional? The assumption is that it’s all God’s work in salvation’s call… for I believe He also gives the response... but a response is needed none-the-less.


I think I'm repeating myself to say, the call of God is spiritual, and the response must be spiritual.



I agree. The focus of this post is not about our being smart or our being emotional in saving us, but about how God works in us to save us…

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

But does He give just intelligence to respond to the Gospel message, or just emotion, or both or etc…?


If it were intelligence, the simple-minded could not receive Christ. If it were emotion, your state of salvation would change according to your emotions.


That’s were I’m trying to drive…. I say that somehow, some way, that God has seen to call me his child before the foundation of the world and on an August day some 36 years ago, He opened my heart and mind to the truth of the Gospel and I responded in faith -- [to His eternal past decree for me] -- the new faith that He Himself gave me [that I didn’t see as His faith until years latter]. My testimony was that this date, was an obvious reaching of the Lord Jesus to me to redeemed me from my sinfulness, and as Paul and all the other disciple did, responded to the call… as God directed.

You are following Calvinist doctrinal argument here, but your basic testimony is not about being Calvinist. It is about your having responded by faith - by your spirit - to the call of His Spirit. I think you understand clearly that you belong to him, you have a date in time when your life changed. Where you are having difficulty is in attempting to force your salvation experience to fit into the Calvinist structure.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, I am non-Calvinist. I am completely disinterested in getting into debate on the Calvin-Arminian issue. What is important to me is not what Calvin interpreted the Bible to say, but what does the Bible itself say?

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 3rd 2007, 06:25 PM
Well, RBG, I fear that we are about to part company, since I am a non-Calvinist. But I'll respond to some things in this post before I go.

I don't call myself a Calvinist either... :) It's a shame that we have to part company just because you now think I'm one of those.... :saint:






This is a favorite proof-text of Calvinists, but have you ever done a search on the word "draw" to see the whole counsel of the Bible on it? It might modify your understanding a bit. I'll offer just one.

Jn 12:32-33
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
NKJV

This doesn't say, I will draw only my elect to myself.




'...From ever tongue and every nation...' Yep not just Israel... another :)



It is true that intellect and emotion get involved in our relationship with God. Those are our ways of interpreting spiritual things. But it is the "something else" that feels the draw and responds. Think of your own testimony. Did you intellectually analyze God and decide it was a good thing to follow His ways? Did you feel bad one day and somebody told you a nice story about God and decided if you followed His ways you would feel good all the time? If either of these are the way you came to God, you are missing something vitally important. If you have never come to God in spirit, you have yet to experience what it means to be born again.

This one brought a big smile, for I sense you are saying that I haven't been born from above... Umm, I'm assuming all who post are, so please assume the same back... :)




See, this makes my point! Jesus spoke to them in spirit, and they responded in intellect, and could not follow Him because what He offers is not accessible by intellect.



Go back and read your quoted scripture in context. Jesus has just given them a test. They failed.
Jn 6:53-58
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." NKJV

The attempts of man to interpret this text by intellect or emotion result in turning away from Jesus.



I think I'm repeating myself to say, the call of God is spiritual, and the response must be spiritual.

I agree... so then you define how this happens to be? Saying it is leaves the interpretation to self....so show us how the response is spiritual?




If it were intelligence, the simple-minded could not receive Christ. If it were emotion, your state of salvation would change according to your emotions.

You are so right without God's giving the wisdom and the emotion to grant repentance and believe.




You are following Calvinist doctrinal argument here, but your basic testimony is not about being Calvinist. It is about your having responded by faith - by your spirit - to the call of His Spirit. I think you understand clearly that you belong to him, you have a date in time when your life changed. Where you are having difficulty is in attempting to force your salvation experience to fit into the Calvinist structure.

Again, you are defining a label and button holing me to it, when I'm defining scriptures and understandings to those scriptures.... So now whenever you reply, you will taint your reply with your predispositions to what is Calvinism and what I am asking....



As I stated at the beginning of this post, I am non-Calvinist.

Didn't call you one nor did I say you were anything else.


I am completely disinterested in getting into debate on the Calvin-Arminian issue.

Me too...



What is important to me is not what Calvin interpreted the Bible to say, but what does the Bible itself say?


You turned this into what you think and want it to be.... and I do not speak for Calvin but for myself and what I see the word saying....

Thanks for your thoughts....

RoadWarrior
Dec 3rd 2007, 07:00 PM
I don't call myself a Calvinist either... :) It's a shame that we have to part company just because you now think I'm one of those.... :saint:

OK Redeemed, I owe you a BIG apology, because I did misinterpret you, based on the arguments I saw in your previous post. I am so glad to know you don't call yourself Calvinist. There are many shades of Calvinism that have permeated the American Christian churches, and I'm afraid that once you have been badly burned, you tend to be twice shy of the hint of fire.

So, OK, I won't leave then. :pp I'm glad, because I am getting a lot out of this discussion.


'...From ever tongue and every nation...' Yep not just Israel... another :)

Cool, then, you see the Elect as referring first to Israel...


This one brought a big smile, for I sense you are saying that I haven't been born from above... Umm, I'm assuming all who post are, so please assume the same back... :)

No, I'm not saying you haven't, as the rest of your message proved, you have had a definite experience that changed your life. But, I stopped assuming a long time ago that people who post on Christian message boards are all born-again Christians, even when they claim to be Christians. Again, once burned, twice shy. But I hereby accept your testimony that you are born from above! :hug:



...I'm defining scriptures and understandings to those scriptures.... ... predispositions to what is Calvinism and what I am asking....

I am so sorry that I went in that direction. Please forgive me. I won't do it again. Let's do get back to the scriptures themselves.

If we set emotion and intellect aside for the sake of the discussion and discuss what scripture says about spirit, what will we find?

Do you have an understanding of what is meant by spirit? In the same section of John that triggered a negative reactionn on my part, lets look at what Jesus said about it.

Jn 6:60-65
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." NKJV

What is the part of us (human response) that believes?

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 3rd 2007, 11:22 PM
OK Redeemed, I owe you a BIG apology, because I did misinterpret you, based on the arguments I saw in your previous post.

No Problem



I am so glad to know you don't call yourself Calvinist.

Smile.....



There are many shades of Calvinism that have permeated the American Christian churches, and I'm afraid that once you have been badly burned, you tend to be twice shy of the hint of fire.

There are many shade of many doctrines out there, so we all need to examine everything, hold on to that which is good... 1 Thessalonians 5:21



So, OK, I won't leave then. :pp I'm glad, because I am getting a lot out of this discussion.

Again, Praise God.




Cool, then, you see the Elect as referring first to Israel...

Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.






No, I'm not saying you haven't, as the rest of your message proved, you have had a definite experience that changed your life. But, I stopped assuming a long time ago that people who post on Christian message boards are all born-again Christians, even when they claim to be Christians. Again, once burned, twice shy. But I hereby accept your testimony that you are born from above! :hug:

I can perfectly understand your logic, for I think the same thing within my mind at times - based on the fruit or lack of fruit I see a person exhibiting.




I am so sorry that I went in that direction. Please forgive me. I won't do it again. Let's do get back to the scriptures themselves.

Sounds like a great plan... :)



If we set emotion and intellect aside for the sake of the discussion and discuss what scripture says about spirit, what will we find?

Do you have an understanding of what is meant by spirit? In the same section of John that triggered a negative reactionn on my part, lets look at what Jesus said about it.

Jn 6:60-65
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." NKJV

What is the part of us (human response) that believes?




I can say yes, I do... but it would be nice to hear what you say how this works... if you can put it into your own words.... :hug:

RoadWarrior
Dec 4th 2007, 12:44 AM
I can say yes, I do... but it would be nice to hear what you say how this works... if you can put it into your own words.... :hug:



"Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe."


Spirit is truly difficult to define, isn't it! How do you put it in your own words, I'm not sure that I can. I know what it feels like when it is happening, but I don't really know how to tell someone else what that feels like. It is like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. I will certainly meditate on this and wait on the Lord to help me answer the question.

I did a study once, trying to determine how the Bible differentiates between soul and spirit, and found it an impossible task to pull them apart. Yet Hebrews tells us that the Word of God is able to do so.

Hootinannie said it rather well:

Emotion and intellect are part of the SOUL, the spirit is distinct from the soul....so YES...God IS "other than emotion and intellect"...He is Spirit.

Heb 4:12 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. NKJV

A friend of mine used to say that soul is mind, will and emotion. She would also say that joints (which work) represent the works of man, and the marrow is where blood is created. So, spirit can be separated from mind, will and emotion by the word of God. And the works of man are separate from the works of God.

I can also share with you, that when I had my "salvation experience" at age 13, I experienced it as being something otherworldly, as if I had been transported to another plane and could watch what was happening from someplace outside myself. The lady who knelt beside me and prayed with me, said words which I don't remember now, but at the time it was as if I already knew what she was going to say, as if I was re-living something that had already happened. I knew without a doubt that something had happened to me that was outside of everyday normal life. But I can never adequately explain it to someone else.

Beyond that, as I said, I will have to meditate on it to see if the Lord will grant me a deeper understanding to share with you.

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 4th 2007, 12:37 PM
Spirit is truly difficult to define, isn't it! How do you put it in your own words, I'm not sure that I can. I know what it feels like when it is happening, but I don't really know how to tell someone else what that feels like. It is like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. I will certainly meditate on this and wait on the Lord to help me answer the question.

Hi RW… Not sure if you realize it or not, but you just defined emotion to describe the Holy Spirit…. Sooooo. Here’s the point of the post, when you came to see the saving grace of salvation, was emotion also involved? Now I say that the bible says that being ‘of the Spirit’ is being and living in the word [1 Corinthians 2:16], and evidence of His Spirit within in us is by the fruit of the Spirit of God [Galatians 5:22,23] So the question begs to ask, is it intellect, emotion, both, one first before another emanates, something you can’t describe, or other?



I did a study once, trying to determine how the Bible differentiates between soul and spirit, and found it an impossible task to pull them apart. Yet Hebrews tells us that the Word of God is able to do so.

Hootinannie said it rather well:


Emotion and intellect are part of the SOUL, the spirit is distinct from the soul....so YES...God IS "other than emotion and intellect"...He is Spirit.

Not to take this down to a rabbit trail, but to say that if you did an exegetical study on the words soul and spirit, you’d find that the Greek points to them being referenced to be interpreted to be the same.



Heb 4:12 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. NKJV

A friend of mine used to say that soul is mind, will and emotion. She would also say that joints (which work) represent the works of man, and the marrow is where blood is created. So, spirit can be separated from mind, will and emotion by the word of God. And the works of man are separate from the works of God.

I can also share with you, that when I had my "salvation experience" at age 13, I experienced it as being something otherworldly, as if I had been transported to another plane and could watch what was happening from someplace outside myself. The lady who knelt beside me and prayed with me, said words which I don't remember now, but at the time it was as if I already knew what she was going to say, as if I was re-living something that had already happened. I knew without a doubt that something had happened to me that was outside of everyday normal life. But I can never adequately explain it to someone else.

Thanks for sharing your ‘experience’ [testimony]…. So…. As you have stated and shared, you are defining your experience to have a part in salvation, and you have stated that you had some emotion as part of this experience…. Now, many permutations of direction I could have taken to ask folks about authenticity, or about why, or about where… but I chose how….




Beyond that, as I said, I will have to meditate on it to see if the Lord will grant me a deeper understanding to share with you.


Studying God’s word in prayer - seeking truth - is an excellent way to gain more understanding…

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved [or study] to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

James 1:5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.


Have a great day as God directs your path.

RoadWarrior
Dec 4th 2007, 05:25 PM
Hi RW… Not sure if you realize it or not, but you just defined emotion to describe the Holy Spirit…. Sooooo. Here’s the point of the post, when you came to see the saving grace of salvation, was emotion also involved? Now I say that the bible says that being ‘of the Spirit’ is being and living in the word [1 Corinthians 2:16], and evidence of His Spirit within in us is by the fruit of the Spirit of God [Galatians 5:22,23] So the question begs to ask, is it intellect, emotion, both, one first before another emanates, something you can’t describe, or other?

No. Emotion is a side effect. Pain is what you feel, anger is the emotion that goes with it.

No. Emotion was not involved at the point of salvation, nor was it necessary to feel emotion in order to be saved. It was necessary to surrender, to obey.

Emotion and intellect are of the flesh. That which is of the flesh, is flesh. That which is of the Spirit, is spirit.

1 Co 2:13-14
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV




Not to take this down to a rabbit trail, but to say that if you did an exegetical study on the words soul and spirit, you’d find that the Greek points to them being referenced to be interpreted to be the same.

Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
NKJV



Thanks for sharing your ‘experience’ [testimony]…. So…. As you have stated and shared, you are defining your experience to have a part in salvation, and you have stated that you had some emotion as part of this experience…. Now, many permutations of direction I could have taken to ask folks about authenticity, or about why, or about where… but I chose how….


I described how I 'experienced' salvation. Emotion was not a part of that.



Have a great day as God directs your path.

Thank you.

Friend of I AM
Dec 4th 2007, 05:46 PM
Food for thought. Perhaps Intellect and Emotion do play a part in Salvation, however, the vastness of God's intellect, and the depths of his emotion cannot be fully comprehended by man's limited understanding of both of these terms.

My two extra cents...:)

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 5th 2007, 01:38 PM
No. Emotion is a side effect. Pain is what you feel, anger is the emotion that goes with it.

No. Emotion was not involved at the point of salvation, nor was it necessary to feel emotion in order to be saved. It was necessary to surrender, to obey.

Emotion and intellect are of the flesh. That which is of the flesh, is flesh. That which is of the Spirit, is spirit.

1 Co 2:13-14
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV



Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
NKJV



I described how I 'experienced' salvation. Emotion was not a part of that.




Thank you.


Hi RW!

I think you are still missing the point…. You still responded; you still reacted. Whether you want to say in example that pain is an emotion or a feeling… it’s still a reaction and response.


Maybe I haven’t been clear so I’ll try again…. The only way a person can correctly respond to the Gospel call is through God’s working within them…. This is in part the regenerating work of His Spirit with a man - for this man to ‘see’, hear’, and ‘do’ what God has called His child to do.


And one last comment is that God created man with emotion, and I find it hard to believe that there is any decision in life that is sans emotion, however slight...

I contend that even a decision to turn on the light switch has both logic and emotion working as why.... logic to see, emotion to respond to what is seen... and they don't need to be a 50/50 proposition, but are part none-the-less...

We decide and 'feel' in everything we do, for that's how God has wired man -- and to say that at the point of salvation we are not to respond at all, nor to not decide in agreement/repentance or even a yes... and not to have any feeling about it -- contradicts the humanness that God gave us and works through.

Salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God, through God and God alone and it's His using His called child to give them the works of repentance, of faith, and using our frame He created of us in doing so.


RW... It's been a great discourse and I valued our time studying together.

RoadWarrior
Dec 5th 2007, 04:47 PM
Hi RW!

I think you are still missing the point….
...

Maybe I haven’t been clear so I’ll try again…. The only way a person can correctly respond to the Gospel call is through God’s working within them…. This is in part the regenerating work of His Spirit with a man - for this man to ‘see’, hear’, and ‘do’ what God has called His child to do.
....

We decide and 'feel' in everything we do, for that's how God has wired man -- and to say that at the point of salvation we are not to respond at all, nor to not decide in agreement/repentance or even a yes... and not to have any feeling about it -- contradicts the humanness that God gave us and works through.

...

RW... It's been a great discourse and I valued our time studying together.

Sorry I keep missing your point. I'll approach your question from a different viewpoint. I'll go past the "point of salvation" because that is where I think these other things kick in. I highlighted that bit above in red, because maybe that is your real question. Our spirit does in truth dwell in a human body, with intellect and emotions, and it is through those mediums that we access the world around us. It is how we communicate, how we interact with each other. The spirit is expressed through those. Is that what you are lookiing for?

It's an interesting thing about salvation, which is observed even in Jesus' baptism. Immediately after he was baptized he was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tempted by Satan. Satan's temptations were definitely appeals to the things of the flesh. And it was by rejecting these that Jesus was victorious over Satan.

I have observed in my own life and in the lives of others, the same pattern emerges. Satan in very quick to rush in and try to steal the seed of the gospel.

So what I see about emotion and intellect is that they are the places of vulnerability. With the intellect, we might rationalize away what happened to us, or we can decide to believe it in spite of arguments to the contrary. With the emotions, we can know the joy of salvation, but it requires faithfulness and trust to hold on to that joy even when times get bad and our emotions plunge into despair and self-pity.

I might still be missing what you want to say, and I'm sorry if I am. Perhaps we'll have a chance to explore these ideas further in a different thread. Sometimes when we don't understand each other, we just need to come at it from a different angle.

Thanks for the discourse.

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 5th 2007, 06:40 PM
Sorry I keep missing your point. I'll approach your question from a different viewpoint. I'll go past the "point of salvation" because that is where I think these other things kick in. I highlighted that bit above in red, because maybe that is your real question. Our spirit does in truth dwell in a human body, with intellect and emotions, and it is through those mediums that we access the world around us. It is how we communicate, how we interact with each other. The spirit is expressed through those. Is that what you are lookiing for?

It's an interesting thing about salvation, which is observed even in Jesus' baptism. Immediately after he was baptized he was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit to be tempted by Satan. Satan's temptations were definitely appeals to the things of the flesh. And it was by rejecting these that Jesus was victorious over Satan.

I have observed in my own life and in the lives of others, the same pattern emerges. Satan in very quick to rush in and try to steal the seed of the gospel.

So what I see about emotion and intellect is that they are the places of vulnerability. With the intellect, we might rationalize away what happened to us, or we can decide to believe it in spite of arguments to the contrary. With the emotions, we can know the joy of salvation, but it requires faithfulness and trust to hold on to that joy even when times get bad and our emotions plunge into despair and self-pity.

I might still be missing what you want to say, and I'm sorry if I am. Perhaps we'll have a chance to explore these ideas further in a different thread. Sometimes when we don't understand each other, we just need to come at it from a different angle.

Thanks for the discourse.


Let’s try it this way… When you heard the Gospel of salvation… what did you do?

RoadWarrior
Dec 5th 2007, 09:05 PM
Let’s try it this way… When you heard the Gospel of salvation… what did you do?

Walked around in a daze.

What did you do?

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 5th 2007, 09:20 PM
Walked around in a daze.

What did you do?

LOL...I like a good sense of humor.... touche`

I responded as you responded, yet I wasn't dazed like you... :lol:


I guess my point is you reacted to what you heard, no?

RoadWarrior
Dec 5th 2007, 09:34 PM
LOL...I like a good sense of humor.... touche`

I responded as you responded, yet I wasn't dazed like you... :lol:


I guess my point is you reacted to what you heard, no?

It's really hard to answer that question. I grew up in a church where the "gospel" was preached everytime there was a preacher in the pulpit. In fact, that was a big problem, because it was all I ever heard, I didn't hear anything about how to grow in Christ. There came a time when I responded as you say. And as I said, it was like walking around in a daze, before I went to the altar and continuing through my baptism the following Sunday. I cannot tell you thoughts or feelings.

Now, if we talk about how I use emotions and intellect in my walk with the Lord, we have to leap forward several years to when I learned there was more to it than just "getting saved".

Mostly in those ensuing years I used emotions and intellect as a way to keep as far away from the Lord as possible.

How do you use emotions and intellect in your walk with the Lord?

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 5th 2007, 10:09 PM
It's really hard to answer that question. I grew up in a church where the "gospel" was preached everytime there was a preacher in the pulpit. In fact, that was a big problem, because it was all I ever heard, I didn't hear anything about how to grow in Christ. There came a time when I responded as you say. And as I said, it was like walking around in a daze, before I went to the altar and continuing through my baptism the following Sunday. I cannot tell you thoughts or feelings.

Now, if we talk about how I use emotions and intellect in my walk with the Lord, we have to leap forward several years to when I learned there was more to it than just "getting saved".

Mostly in those ensuing years I used emotions and intellect as a way to keep as far away from the Lord as possible.

How do you use emotions and intellect in your walk with the Lord?

Hi RW.... I understand what you are saying.... but before we leave this point, the reality is that both you and I had to have heard the gospel on the day that it made the most sense and then there has to be a next step or a reaction or a response that validates this sense to ourselves.... Just as you and I are reacting to each other's comments with a reply, so too we reacted or responded or identified with the Gospel....

The OP goes back to the reaction of the Gospel and positions this reaction as intellectual, emotional, both, or yada yada yada, and my position is that God gives the response of both wisdom to understand and yes - even emotion. My emotion could be described as humility, gratefulness, joy, fear, and peace, among others, for I see that God works in and through man to work with a measure of faith that God gives all believers.

Now as to my walk, I try to let the Word of God fill my mind and heart and would then say intellect by His Spirit leads, with emotion at the reality of intellect and not driving intellect, so for my walk... my 1st impression would be that to your revised question that is different from the OP, I would then side maybe with #4 - as God leads my walk, FWIW

RoadWarrior
Dec 5th 2007, 10:53 PM
Hi RW.... I understand what you are saying.... but before we leave this point, the reality is that both you and I had to have heard the gospel on the day that it made the most sense and then there has to be a next step or a reaction or a response that validates this sense to ourselves.... Just as you and I are reacting to each other's comments with a reply, so too we reacted or responded or identified with the Gospel....

The OP goes back to the reaction of the Gospel and positions this reaction as intellectual, emotional, both, or yada yada yada, and my position is that God gives the response of both wisdom to understand and yes - even emotion. My emotion could be described as humility, gratefulness, joy, fear, and peace, among others, for I see that God works in and through man to work with a measure of faith that God gives all believers.

Now as to my walk, I try to let the Word of God fill my mind and heart and would then say intellect by His Spirit leads, with emotion at the reality of intellect and not driving intellect, so for my walk... my 1st impression would be that to your revised question that is different from the OP, I would then side maybe with #4 - as God leads my walk, FWIW

RG, I think some people have a very different experience from mine, and I wouldn't want to try to use a broad brush to paint what a person "must" experience in coming to Christ. I've had many reasons to think through some of these points over the last few weeks, not the least of which is trying to make a 2-3 hour testimony fit into 10 minutes! The other has been lived out in this discussion of remembering what it was like for me. Naturally I have shared only a tiny glimpse of that. Was your salvation experience a one-time event? I wish mine had been that simple! I gave you the one-time event that I usually share, but there was more to it than that.

I think every time I have been aware of the Lord "touching" my life, I have known a sense of awe, of wonder, of astonishment.

Generally, I think of what the Lord has done as being something so outside of me that I can't reduce it into any kind of human terms. So I like to reserve human terms to describe or to use, in what is my part in this relationship with Him. I first came to Him thinking that love was an emotion, and He taught me that His version of love is action, behavior, attitude, and so much more. I've had to rearrange my understanding of intellect and emotion since I've been walking with Him, and continue to do so.

I can see your point, emotion followed by intellect. When I think of my Lord now, I sense welling up in me a joy, a gratitude, a thrill beyond imagining ...

And I follow that with thought, Lord, how can I please you? What can I do to give back a tiny portion of what You have given me ...

So. Perhaps what actually happened 53 years ago was that He poured His love into my spirit and left me quite dazed. Could I have resisted Him? The fact is that I didn't resist Him then, but made an instinctive choice to draw nearer to that Love. But I have many times since then, resisted Him, been angry at Him, run from Him, yelled at Him ...

Sad isn't it.

RoadWarrior
Dec 5th 2007, 11:29 PM
... My emotion could be described as humility, gratefulness, joy, fear, and peace, among others, for I see that God works in and through man to work with a measure of faith that God gives all believers.

Now as to my walk, I try to let the Word of God fill my mind and heart and would then say intellect by His Spirit leads, with emotion at the reality of intellect and not driving intellect, so for my walk... my 1st impression would be that to your revised question that is different from the OP, I would then side maybe with #4 - as God leads my walk, FWIW

RBG, I am just now doing a study of the gospel of John, and there's a great question which seems to apply.

In John 6, there is a progression of response to Jesus' test (you must eat the Bread of Heaven) - in verses 41, 52, 60-61, and 66.
Jn 6:41 .. The Jews then complained ..
Jn 6:52 .. The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, ..
Jn 6:60-61 ...Therefore many of His disciples, ... said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" ... His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
Jn 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jn 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. NKJV

They started well. They had an emotional response. They intellectually were tracking with Him. But when He introduces a spiritual concept that they can't get, they turn away and walk with Him no more.

Jn 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." NKJV

It seems to me that there is a mystery of the spirit that involves believing and knowing. Only with that, can we continue to follow Him when emotion and intellect fail us.

Or, perhaps you would say that believing is emotion and knowing is intellect? I say it is beyond those.

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 6th 2007, 02:26 AM
RBG, I am just now doing a study of the gospel of John, and there's a great question which seems to apply.

In John 6, there is a progression of response to Jesus' test (you must eat the Bread of Heaven) - in verses 41, 52, 60-61, and 66.
Jn 6:41 .. The Jews then complained ..
Jn 6:52 .. The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, ..
Jn 6:60-61 ...Therefore many of His disciples, ... said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" ... His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
Jn 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe."
Jn 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. NKJV

They started well. They had an emotional response. They intellectually were tracking with Him. But when He introduces a spiritual concept that they can't get, they turn away and walk with Him no more.

Jn 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." NKJV

It seems to me that there is a mystery of the spirit that involves believing and knowing. Only with that, can we continue to follow Him when emotion and intellect fail us.

Or, perhaps you would say that believing is emotion and knowing is intellect? I say it is beyond those.

So glad to hear that you are studying the word...:saint:

So not trying to push you backwards, but if you reread some of my previous comments, you should find that I do not argue that God's Spirit is key... the point of the post is not the duration or walk -- but the entry point and the difference is not that both "believers" and "non-believers" can use intellect and emotion, for both are human as God created.... but the difference is in God's opening of the heart and mind of the believer to respond in wisdom and using emotion. And thus as your previous post implied - that folks have diverse experiences... but they are diverse in experience but need to ultimately funnel to the narrow gate -- and it's this gate that everyone has to enter in the same way....


No I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to vote for #3, but I do think that everyone needs to hear and respond to the Gospel in the fashion that God draws them too -- as with humble repentance and faith, which again, are works of God in a people whom God predestined to call to saving faith.

I have to apologize but I have a lot of work until Friday ahead of me, so future replies will be slower than they have currently been, so have a great evening as God directs.... [Proverbs 16:9]

RoadWarrior
Dec 6th 2007, 02:47 AM
So glad to hear that you are studying the word...:saint:
..
I have to apologize but I have a lot of work until Friday ahead of me, so future replies will be slower than they have currently been, so have a great evening as God directs.... [Proverbs 16:9]

I'm going to be busy as well, so I'll wrap this up. Go with God.

Redeemed by Grace
Dec 7th 2007, 01:03 PM
I'm going to be busy as well, so I'll wrap this up. Go with God.

Hi Rw,

I'm back home if you'd like to pick this up again.... OK if we are done, I just wanted to give you the option and not let my schedule be an obstacle to our studies.