PDA

View Full Version : Why You Do Not Understand Job



tgallison
Nov 30th 2007, 10:39 PM
7 FALSE PREMISES

1. False premise that Job suffered without cause.

2. False premise that God said the speech of the three friends was untrue.

3. False premise that salvation is different in the Old Testament then in the New Testament.

4. False premise that if Job had died at the end of the second chapter he would have had salvation.

5. False premise that Elihu was a rash young man.

6. False premise that Behemoth was after the order of the animal kingdom.

7. False premise that Leviathan was after the order of the animal Kingdom.

You need to put the commentaries down and read the Book.

markedward
Nov 30th 2007, 10:43 PM
3. False premise that salvation is different in the Old Testament then in the New Testament.I haven't encountered too many people who think this.

Now that you've started the thread and imply that you know the truth to seven "false premises," so... what are the answers to these?

tgallison
Nov 30th 2007, 11:05 PM
I haven't encountered too many people who think this.

Now that you've started the thread and imply that you know the truth to seven "false premises," so... what are the answers to these?

markedward hi

If salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New Testament where is your scripture that shows that Job accepted God's righteousness for his salvation?

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 12:05 AM
I haven't encountered too many people who think this.

Now that you've started the thread and imply that you know the truth to seven "false premises," so... what are the answers to these?

markedward if I answered all seven at one time, it would be the whole book of Job. It has been my experience that most people do not see salvation the same way in the Old Testament, but since you picked one of the premises that you agree with, you would be better able to pick a time in the Book of Job, where Job actually gets saved.

In Jesus Christ.

dhtraveler
Dec 1st 2007, 12:17 AM
Job 42:4-6 (King James Version)
4) Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.


dht

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 12:38 AM
Job 42:4-6 (King James Version)
4) Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 5) I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 6) Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
dht

dhtraveler HI

In my opinion, whatever that is worth, you receive a 100%, but then you are in a minority.

Is there anything you disagree with?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

dhtraveler
Dec 1st 2007, 12:48 AM
I am not sure about number 6 & 7 because I do not think anyone can be sure on these two.

bht

unless maybe you know something I don't?:hmm:

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 02:34 AM
I am not sure about number 6 & 7 because I do not think anyone can be sure on these two.

bht

unless maybe you know something I don't?:hmm:

dhtraveler just spent an hour typing up reply and lost it. Will try again.

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 02:46 AM
If salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New Testament where is your scripture that shows that Job accepted God's righteousness for his salvation?Wait a second... you say the false premise is that OT salvation is different than NT salvation. I made a statement that most people agree that that is a false premise... so why are you questioning me about the true premise? I didn't say I agree with the false premise itself... I said that I and most people agree that the premise is false.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 02:49 AM
I am not sure about number 6 & 7 because I do not think anyone can be sure on these two.

bht

unless maybe you know something I don't?:hmm:

dhtraveler will try to answer

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepth upon the earth."

Genesis 9:2 "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fow. of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea, into your hand are they delivered."

The only difference between these two verses is that sin and death entered into the world and Noah was told to eat the animals.

God is not the author of confusion. Man was given dominion over the animals. The beast and the dragon in Job are not a crocodile and a hippopotamus. Man was give dominion over them, and that has never changed.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 03:14 AM
Behemoth

Job 40:19 "He is chief of the ways of God he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." Definitely not a hippopotamus.

Leviathan

Job 41:10 "None is fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? Definitely not a crocodile. I have seen a fella wrestle one of them.

dhtraveler
Dec 1st 2007, 03:20 AM
So what i see you saying is that the Behemoth, and the Leviathin are not the hippo and crocodile. But where do you get the idea that they are not of the animal kingdom?

Like I said, I do not know, or if anyone can know what they are. But to say what they are not is equally unknowable. God's word does not give us a clear indication what they are or are not.

bht

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 03:30 AM
Before God questions Job about Satan he says to Job, Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency, and array thyself with glory and beauty." And then he says, Job 40:12 "Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low, and tread down the wicked in their place." Is not this a picture of Satan? Is not he arrayed in glory and beauty.

Ezekiel 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Thou sealest up the , full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. (13) Thou hast been in the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of the tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created." No earthly king has been in the garden of Eden.

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 03:31 AM
Behemoth

Job 40:19 "He is chief of the ways of God he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." Definitely not a hippopotamus.

Leviathan

Job 41:10 "None is fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me? Definitely not a crocodile. I have seen a fella wrestle one of them.All you're doing, in this case, is countering commonviews held by people who haven't researched the Bible enough.

Some people think that the "behemoth" and "leviathan" could be dinosaurs (and there is a ton of evidence to support this view). Just because they aren't crocodiles and hippos doesn't mean they weren't real creatures at all.

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 03:32 AM
No earthly king has been in the garden of Eden.And there isn't really a beast walking the earth with seven heads and ten horns. Symbolism.

ddlewis86
Dec 1st 2007, 03:38 AM
Job 1
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.


Job 1:8
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 03:45 AM
Wait a second... you say the false premise is that OT salvation is different than NT salvation. I made a statement that most people agree that that is a false premise... so why are you questioning me about the true premise? I didn't say I agree with the false premise itself... I said that I and most people agree that the premise is false.

markedward that is what I thought you were saying. I was not disputing you. Was just asking you if you believe that it is the same, where do you see Job getting saved? At what point in time?

ddlewis86
Dec 1st 2007, 03:49 AM
Job 1
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.


Job 1:8
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Job was a test of faith, not a test of salvation. The Lord states that Job was already saved. (My servant Job...) (blameless and upright...) Of course I DO SUBSCRIBE to "Once Saved Always Saved." :)

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 04:17 AM
So what i see you saying is that the Behemoth, and the Leviathin are not the hippo and crocodile. But where do you get the idea that they are not of the animal kingdom?

Like I said, I do not know, or if anyone can know what they are. But to say what they are not is equally unknowable. God's word does not give us a clear indication what they are or are not.

bht

dhtraveler

I am having trouble with my computer posting. Will be off till I get it fixed.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 06:34 AM
Job was a test of faith, not a test of salvation. The Lord states that Job was already saved. (My servant Job...) (blameless and upright...) Of course I DO SUBSCRIBE to "Once Saved Always Saved." :)

ddlewis86 HI

We are pretty far apart on this one. You take blameless and upright as Job being saved. I take it as self righteousness on Job's part. I too subscribe to once saved always saved.

Lets look at the evidence. Sometimes one or two verses do not tell the whole story. Job would appear to be a picture of Israel in someways.

In the second chapter verse 10 God said, Job sinned not with his lips. In the first chapter verse 22 God said, Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly. Can you see the difference? It is clear that the statement has been limited to the lips only. It is noteworthy to notice what Job said about his sons in Job 1:5 "---for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.---." Job didn't say curse God with their lips, because it is the heart that counts.

Isaiah 29:13 "Wherefore the Lord said, forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

Job's three friends sat with him for seven days and seven nights. They had not spoken one ill word toward Job. Job was the first to speak adversely. He cursed his mother and he cursed God's creation. It is often said that he was a faithful servant of God. Look what the faithful servant said in chapter 3 verse 19. He wanted to be free from his master. And that is another thing. Galatians 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

There is much much more evidence.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 06:43 AM
All you're doing, in this case, is countering commonviews held by people who haven't researched the Bible enough.

Some people think that the "behemoth" and "leviathan" could be dinosaurs (and there is a ton of evidence to support this view). Just because they aren't crocodiles and hippos doesn't mean they weren't real creatures at all.

markedward

So you are saying the king over all the children of pride is a dinosaur. Job 41:34

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 06:55 AM
Satan's called a lion, and there really are lions.
Satan's called a dragon, and there really were dragons.
Satan's called a serpent, and there really are serpents.
Satan's called Leviathan, and there really were such sea monsters. Job was shown one by God.

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 07:14 AM
So you are saying the king over all the children of pride is a dinosaur[?]Were the Pharisees really Satan's children?

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 07:27 AM
So what i see you saying is that the Behemoth, and the Leviathin are not the hippo and crocodile. But where do you get the idea that they are not of the animal kingdom?

Like I said, I do not know, or if anyone can know what they are. But to say what they are not is equally unknowable. God's word does not give us a clear indication what they are or are not.

bht

dhtraveler

I believe the Bible does make it clear that it is Satan.

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

Is this serpent, beast Satan?

Revelation 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Can anyone say this dragon is a dinosaur, or a crocidile. Lets compare another dragon. Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent, and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Is God going to punish a dinosaur or a crocodile. A crooked serpent was in the garden with Eve. Here in Isaiah the Bible calls leviathan a dragon as well as a serpent. Is this the dragon in revelation? Here God is going to punish him with the sword of Jesus Christ in the end times.

In Revelation we see the dragon, the beast and the false prophet. Satan is a copier. This would appear to be the trinity of Satan. Revelation 16:13.

Revelation 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Job 40:19 "He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." Here we see the sword of God again.

Job 41:10 "None is so fierce that dare stir him up:---" Compare with, who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:4.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 07:35 AM
Were the Pharisees really Satan's children?

You belong to whom you serve, do you not?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 07:55 AM
I think that the question markedward was asking is, "Were the Pharisees begotten of who they would one day serve?"

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 08:11 AM
2. False premise that God said the speech of the three friends was untrue.

Would you explain Job 42:7-10...?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 08:23 AM
6. False premise that Behemoth was after the order of the animal kingdom.

7. False premise that Leviathan was after the order of the animal Kingdom.

What about the lions (38:39-40), ravens (38:41), wild mountain goats (39:1), deer (39:1), the wild donkey (39:5-8), the wild ox (39:9-12), the ostrich (39:13-18), the horse (39:19-25), the hawk (39:26), or the eagle (39:27-30)? What is your inference for making such a wild claim that the behemoth and the leviathan are not also actual animals well known by Job?

I'm beginning to think that you are the one who does not understand this book...

markedward
Dec 1st 2007, 08:52 AM
You belong to whom you serve, do you not?You misinterpreted my question.

I'll speak plainly: we do not take the Pharisees to be the literal offspring of Satan (i.e., Satan had "relations" with someone else, whoever that might be, and that person physically gave birth to the seed of Satan, and they were the Pharisees). We simply don't interpret Jesus' words to say the Pharisees were Satan's literal, physical offspring through "familiar relations." In which case, if we take them as figuratively being Satan's children, why is it so hard to accept a dinosaur may have been "king over all the children of pride"? How can any animal be "king over all the children of pride"? Yet an animal of some sort, from its behaviors to its physical appearance to its habitat to its manner of movement, is being described in Job 41. If it looks like an animal, and it acts like an animal, and it lives like an animal, it's probably an animal. Now, it may be that that animal is being used and spoken of figuratively to make a point, but that doesn't mean it is any less a real animal.

I'd have to agree with astrongerthanhe; it seems like even if you have read Job, you seem to be unaware of parts of the book that support the premises you supposed to be false, and you even seem to be unaware of basic patterns of speech in literature, such as speaking figuratively or symbolically about something or someone (such as in the case of when I compared Satan and the Pharisees as his children to an animal being king of children of pride).

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 02:51 PM
You misinterpreted my question.

I'll speak plainly: we do not take the Pharisees to be the literal offspring of Satan (i.e., Satan had "relations" with someone else, whoever that might be, and that person physically gave birth to the seed of Satan, and they were the Pharisees). We simply don't interpret Jesus' words to say the Pharisees were Satan's literal, physical offspring through "familiar relations." In which case, if we take them as figuratively being Satan's children, why is it so hard to accept a dinosaur may have been "king over all the children of pride"? How can any animal be "king over all the children of pride"? Yet an animal of some sort, from its behaviors to its physical appearance to its habitat to its manner of movement, is being described in Job 41. If it looks like an animal, and it acts like an animal, and it lives like an animal, it's probably an animal. Now, it may be that that animal is being used and spoken of figuratively to make a point, but that doesn't mean it is any less a real animal.

I'd have to agree with astrongerthanhe; it seems like even if you have read Job, you seem to be unaware of parts of the book that support the premises you supposed to be false, and you even seem to be unaware of basic patterns of speech in literature, such as speaking figuratively or symbolically about something or someone (such as in the case of when I compared Satan and the Pharisees as his children to an animal being king of children of pride).

markedward


Jesus is called the light of the world.

Jesus is called the arm of God.

Jesus is called the bread of life.

Jesus is called the Rock of our salvation.

Jesus is called the living water.

Jesus is called the tree of life.

Jesus is called the lamb of God.


Jesus is still Jesus, Satan is still Satan. If you can see Jesus as the lamb of God that saves, why can't you see Satan as the devouring dragon. Seems pretty clear to me.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 02:57 PM
I think that the question markedward was asking is, "Were the Pharisees begotten of who they would one day serve?"

astrongerthanhe HI

We are all born of Satan destined for eternal separation from God, because of the sin of Adam.

If and when we are born again, we become the sons of God.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 03:04 PM
All you're doing, in this case, is countering commonviews held by people who haven't researched the Bible enough.

Some people think that the "behemoth" and "leviathan" could be dinosaurs (and there is a ton of evidence to support this view). Just because they aren't crocodiles and hippos doesn't mean they weren't real creatures at all.

markedward HI

Could you present some of the ton of evidence to prove they are dinosaurs using scripture?

terrell

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 06:43 PM
markedward


Jesus is called the light of the world.

Jesus is called the arm of God.

Jesus is called the bread of life.

Jesus is called the Rock of our salvation.

Jesus is called the living water.

Jesus is called the tree of life.

Jesus is called the lamb of God.


Jesus is still Jesus, Satan is still Satan. If you can see Jesus as the lamb of God that saves, why can't you see Satan as the devouring dragon. Seems pretty clear to me.

There really is light; we really have arms; there is such a thing as bread; there are rocks; there is water; there are trees; there are real lambs... so why can't leviathan be from the animal kingdom here in Job?

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 06:46 PM
Would you explain Job 42:7-10...?

I believe the best way to explain scripture is with scripture.

Job 42:7 "And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

The word right in the Hebrew is kuwn(strongs 03559). Kuwn is translated right only three times in the KJV. the first time in Judges 12:6 where poor speech results in death. The second time is here in Job 42:7. The third and last time is Psalm 78:37 "For their heart was not right with him, neither were they steadfast in his covenant." Hear it is talking about Israel. Look at some of the preceding verses.

Psalm 78:34 "When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God." Compare with Job 5:8 "I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:" Psalm 78:35 "And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer."

Psalm 78:36 "Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. (37) for their heart was not right withhim, neither were they stedfast in his covenant." Look at how Job flattered God with his mouth. Job 5:9 "Which doeth great things and unsearchable: marvelous things without number."

In Job chapter 5, Job was not right with God, but starting in chapter 42:1-6 he becomes right with God when he says "therefore have I uttered that I understood not, things to wonderful for me, which I knew not,---wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

In Job chapter 42:9 the Bible says the Lord also accepted Job. The Hebrew word nasa that is translated accepted is found only three times in the Bible. Genesis 19:21 where Abraham's request is accepted by God and Lot and his family are spared. The second time is 1 Samuel 25:35 where Abigail's request is accepted by David and she is spared. The third time is in Job 42:9 where Job and his three friends are accepted and spared by God.

Psalm 78:38 "But he, being full of compassion forgave their inquity, and destroyed them not yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath."

Nihil Obstat
Dec 1st 2007, 06:48 PM
astrongerthanhe HI

We are all born of Satan destined for eternal separation from God, because of the sin of Adam.

If and when we are born again, we become the sons of God.

You misunderstand Rom. ch.5...

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 06:56 PM
You misunderstand Rom. ch.5...

Could you be a little more explicit than that?

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 11:13 PM
I believe the best way to explain scripture is with scripture.

Job 42:7 "And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

The word right in the Hebrew is kuwn(strongs 03559). Kuwn is translated right only three times in the KJV. the first time in Judges 12:6 where poor speech results in death. The second time is here in Job 42:7. The third and last time is Psalm 78:37 "For their heart was not right with him, neither were they steadfast in his covenant." Hear it is talking about Israel. Look at some of the preceding verses.

Psalm 78:33 "Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble." Compare with Job 5:7 "Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward."

Psalm 78:34 "When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God." Compare with Job 5:8 "I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:" Psalm 78:35 "And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer."

Psalm 78:36 "Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. (37) for their heart was not right withhim, neither were they stedfast in his covenant." Look at how Job flattered God with his mouth. Job 5:9 "Which doeth great things and unsearchable: marvelous things without number."

In Job chapter 5, Job was not right with God, but starting in chapter 42:1-6 he becomes right with God when he says "therefore have I uttered that I understood not, things to wonderful for me, which I knew not,---wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

In Job chapter 42:9 the Bible says the Lord also accepted Job. The Hebrew word nasa that is translated accepted is found only three times in the Bible. Genesis 19:21 where Abraham's request is accepted by God and Lot and his family are spared. The second time is 1 Samuel 25:35 where Abigail's request is accepted by David and she is spared. The third time is in Job 42:9 where Job and his three friends are accepted and spared by God.

Psalm 78:38 "But he, being full of compassion forgave their inquity, and destroyed them not yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath."

A portion was missing was the reason for this posting.

tgallison
Dec 1st 2007, 11:21 PM
There really is light; we really have arms; there is such a thing as bread; there are rocks; there is water; there are trees; there are real lambs... so why can't leviathan be from the animal kingdom here in Job?

Leviathan can't be from the animal kingdom, because this is a metaphor.

Dinosaurs cannot make supplications to you, they cannot speak soft words to you, and you can't make a covenant with them. But you can with Satan.

Dinosaurs do not behold all high things as Satan does, nor is a dinosaur king over the children of pride. Doesn't it seem obvious that it has to be talking about Satan?

Nihil Obstat
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:25 AM
tgallison, I need to ask your forgiveness; I've been responding with an angry and impatient spirit. I sincerely apologize. - Lk.11

markedward
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:27 AM
Leviathan can't be from the animal kingdom, because this is a metaphor.It was also metaphoric for Christ to call the Pharisees "brood of vipers" and "sons of Satan."


Dinosaurs cannot make supplications to you, they cannot speak soft words to you, and you can't make a covenant with them. But you can with Satan.Hence it being metaphoric.


Dinosaurs do not behold all high things as Satan does, nor is a dinosaur king over the children of pride. Doesn't it seem obvious that it has to be talking about Satan?Job 39:7 describes a donkey laughing at a town's business. If a donkey can comprehend and laugh at a town's commotion in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if an ostrich can laugh at a horse and rider in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if a horse can snort the word "Aha!" in metaphor and still be a real animal, then it's equally easy for the leviathan to be described as a "king over the children of pride" in metaphor as well and still be a real animal.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:27 AM
Leviathan can't be from the animal kingdom, because this is a metaphor.

Dinosaurs cannot make supplications to you, they cannot speak soft words to you, and you can't make a covenant with them. But you can with Satan.

Dinosaurs do not behold all high things as Satan does, nor is a dinosaur king over the children of pride. Doesn't it seem obvious that it has to be talking about Satan?

Do you mean that there is no such thing as "leviathan", or just that here it's symbolic of Satan? Why can't it be both?

tgallison
Dec 2nd 2007, 02:05 AM
It was also metaphoric for Christ to call the Pharisees "brood of vipers" and "sons of Satan."

Hence it being metaphoric.

Job 39:7 describes a donkey laughing at a town's business. If a donkey can comprehend and laugh at a town's commotion in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if an ostrich can laugh at a horse and rider in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if a horse can snort the word "Aha!" in metaphor and still be a real animal, then it's equally easy for the leviathan to be described as a "king over the children of pride" in metaphor as well and still be a real animal.

markedward HI

Don"t you find this amazing that God devotes a whole chapter, 34 verses to Leviathan alone, asking Job questions about him and describing his nature. He describes his nature as an exalted dragon. We personally know verly little about Satan, only what God tells us.

Because Satan is described other places in the Bible as a dragon, it is easy to see him here as such.

Isn't it also amazing, that after God devotes 34 verses to leviathan, nobody knows what animal he is.

If God doesn't fill his Book with idle words, can you state why so much space was used to speak of an unknown animal?

tgallison
Dec 2nd 2007, 02:12 AM
Do you mean that there is no such thing as "leviathan", or just that here it's symbolic of Satan? Why can't it be both?

astrongerthanhe HI

What I am saying is that leviathan is another name for Satan. Just as Jesus is called a rock, the light, the word, and many other things, so Satan is described as a dragon and called so in Isaiah 27.

In Christ Jesus, terrell

Dandylionheart
Dec 2nd 2007, 03:37 AM
If salvation in the Old Testament is the same as the New Testament where is your scripture that shows that Job accepted God's righteousness for his salvation?

1 Cor. 10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:25 AM
astrongerthanhe HI

What I am saying is that leviathan is another name for Satan. Just as Jesus is called a rock, the light, the word, and many other things, so Satan is described as a dragon and called so in Isaiah 27.

In Christ Jesus, terrell

Cool. I agree with you. But why can't the Leviathan shown to Job also be a real creature? Apparently Job and others knew well this creature, based upon the passage. Job understood from stories that the Leviathan could not be snared or tamed. The Leviathan is just one of many of the great sea monsters to be found within Scripture. Have you ever heard of "combat myths"? See Ps. 74:12-17...

tgallison
Dec 2nd 2007, 12:22 PM
1 Cor. 10:1-4
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Dandylionheart HI

This is true, though it seems many don't understand it, they believe obedience, or works is some how involved because Christ had not yet gone to the cross.

What is your opinion on Job, when do you believe he recieved God's righteousness. Before he is mentioned in the Bible or afterwards at some point.

terrell

dhtraveler
Dec 2nd 2007, 04:36 PM
If one believes that Job was not God's until the end of the book of Job, than I can understand your point.

When I told you that when Job repented in dust and ashes... you probably assumed that I was saying "Thats when he was righteous". But that is so far from what I was saying.

Job repenting in dust and ashes (in Job 42), does not mean that he did not believe by faith in Job 1.

I believe Job, like every Christian we know today, falls into sin and grieves God and is in need to repentance and a turning back again to God.

Job was a righteous man when he believed by faith, probably long before God told satan, Have you seen my servant Job.

dht

markedward
Dec 2nd 2007, 05:49 PM
Don"t you find this amazing that God devotes a whole chapter, 34 verses to Leviathan alone, asking Job questions about him and describing his nature. He describes his nature as an exalted dragon. We personally know verly little about Satan, only what God tells us.

Because Satan is described other places in the Bible as a dragon, it is easy to see him here as such.1) This chapter never identifies it as Satan. To say "God is describing Satan here" is eisegesis, since the text never states it, especially since Satan is already named elsewhere in the text. 2) Satan is also identified as a "serpent" yet you don't question the validity of such an animal, so why is "leviathan" any different even if it was being used to refer to Satan?


Isn't it also amazing, that after God devotes 34 verses to leviathan, nobody knows what animal he is.

If God doesn't fill his Book with idle words, can you state why so much space was used to speak of an unknown animal?Nobody in modern day knows what this animal is. It is unknown to us. That doesn't mean the animal was unknown to them. People in ancient cultures saw dinosaurs with their own eyes, possibly even as late as 100 AD, leaving enough evidence behind to fill 69 webpages (http://s8int.com/dinolit1.html), so it should be no surprise to us that God may have been describing an actual dinosaur from ancient times. I never said it was a dinosaur, only that it's a very likely possibility.

You still didn't answer my previous statement: if a donkey can laugh at a town's commotion, or an ostrich can laugh at a horse and rider, or a horse can say the word "aha," then a "leviathan" can easily be described as "king of the proud," since these animals are all being described in metaphor anyway.

Dandylionheart
Dec 2nd 2007, 06:58 PM
Dandylionheart HI
This is true, though it seems many don't understand it, they believe obedience, or works is some how involved because Christ had not yet gone to the cross.
What is your opinion on Job, when do you believe he recieved God's righteousness. Before he is mentioned in the Bible or afterwards at some point.
terrell

Not really sure i understand your question. What i am sure of is that as believers we must obey God and that faith without works is dead.

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 03:55 AM
Cool. I agree with you. But why can't the Leviathan shown to Job also be a real creature? Apparently Job and others knew well this creature, based upon the passage. Job understood from stories that the Leviathan could not be snared or tamed. The Leviathan is just one of many of the great sea monsters to be found within Scripture. Have you ever heard of "combat myths"? See Ps. 74:12-17...

astrongerthanhe HI

I guess it could be a real creature, but the discription of him would go against the scripture in Genesis 1:26, where man was given dominion over all animals. It would also go against Genesis 9:1, where God told Noah that the fear of him would be upon every beast.

Also, if there were very many of these fire breathing creatures, man wouldn't be here today.

As far as "combat myths" my reading is limited as far as myths go. I have enough trouble with reality.

Praise Jesus Christ

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:21 AM
If one believes that Job was not God's until the end of the book of Job, than I can understand your point.

When I told you that when Job repented in dust and ashes... you probably assumed that I was saying "Thats when he was righteous". But that is so far from what I was saying.

Job repenting in dust and ashes (in Job 42), does not mean that he did not believe by faith in Job 1.

I believe Job, like every Christian we know today, falls into sin and grieves God and is in need to repentance and a turning back again to God.

Job was a righteous man when he believed by faith, probably long before God told satan, Have you seen my servant Job.

dht

dhtraveler HI

Yes, I assumed wrong. If salvation was the same in the Old Testament, how could Job be saved If his sins had not been forgiven? Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?---."

God said "have you seen my servant Job." Job said "and the servant is free from his master." And Paul said "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

God said "Wilt thou disannul my judgment: wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" God said "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

terrell

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:25 AM
Not really sure i understand your question. What i am sure of is that as believers we must obey God and that faith without works is dead.

I was asking if you believe that Job was saved when God called Job perfect and upright, or when Job repented?

terrell

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:44 AM
It was also metaphoric for Christ to call the Pharisees "brood of vipers" and "sons of Satan."

Hence it being metaphoric.

Job 39:7 describes a donkey laughing at a town's business. If a donkey can comprehend and laugh at a town's commotion in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if an ostrich can laugh at a horse and rider in metaphor and still be a real animal, or if a horse can snort the word "Aha!" in metaphor and still be a real animal, then it's equally easy for the leviathan to be described as a "king over the children of pride" in metaphor as well and still be a real animal.

markedward Hi

Your metaphoric examples are different in that when a donkey laughs, it is still a donkey. When an ostrich laughs , it is still an ostrich. When a horse snorts, he is still a horse. God is describing the nature of these beasts and can be understood as such.

When God says leviathan beholds all high things, and he is only a dinosaur, would make no sense. It would make sense if he is Satan, who can present himself before God.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Nihil Obstat
Dec 3rd 2007, 04:57 AM
astrongerthanhe HI

I guess it could be a real creature, but the discription of him would go against the scripture in Genesis 1:26, where man was given dominion over all animals. It would also go against Genesis 9:1, where God told Noah that the fear of him would be upon every beast.

Also, if there were very many of these fire breathing creatures, man wouldn't be here today.

As far as "combat myths" my reading is limited as far as myths go. I have enough trouble with reality.

Praise Jesus Christ

What does "dominion" mean? And animals that are very afraid do funny things... and by "funny" I mean terrifying things (cp. Rev. 6:8). I think that because the leviathan breathed fire is the reason that there aren't many left or even any at all - they were a threat to man, and destroyed. Or, if this creature is confined to the oceans, perhaps they have made their dwellings away from our ships' paths, away from the ocean's current... maybe they'll make their appearance again before Jesus' return...? The legends of Leviathan are very interesting... use discernment when reading up of them and "combat myths", but there is much to glean!

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:10 AM
What does "dominion" mean? And animals that are very afraid do funny things... and by "funny" I mean terrifying things (cp. Rev. 6:8). I think that because the leviathan breathed fire is the reason that there aren't many left or even any at all - they were a threat to man, and destroyed. Or, if this creature is confined to the oceans, perhaps they have made their dwellings away from our ships' paths, away from the ocean's current... maybe they'll make their appearance again before Jesus' return...? The legends of Leviathan are very interesting... use discernment when reading up of them and "combat myths", but there is much to glean!

greetings

When you read man's writings, you often have trouble discerning the truth, from the many supplications and soft words of leviathan. When you read the Bible, you can be assured you are reading truth.

terrell

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:38 AM
In posts 34 and 37 I atributted some verses to Job that were actually by Eliphaz. Sorry

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 05:54 AM
What does "dominion" mean?

greetings

dominion (radah) 1 To rule, have dominion, dominate, tread down. Strong's H7287 rule 13, dominion 9, take 2, prevaileth 1, reign 1, ruler1.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 3rd 2007, 08:16 AM
Yeah, but what does it mean in context to the passage and the time when it was said?

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 01:40 PM
Yeah, but what does it mean in context to the passage and the time when it was said?

It means to have power over all the animals. [radah] (dominion) Genesis 1:26,28---Numbers 24:19---Judges 5:13---1 Kings 4:24---Nehemiah 9:28---Psalm 72:8.

IN CONTRAST, NO POWER OVER LEVIATHAN

Job 41:8 "Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more."

Job 41:10 "None is so fierce that dare stir him up:---."

Job 41:12 "I will not conceal his parts, nor his power,---."

Job 41:13 "Who can discover the face of his garment?---."

Job 41:22 "In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him."

Job 41:25 "When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid by reason of breakings they purify themselves." (Didn't Job purify himself, when he repented.)

Job 41:33 "Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear."

Nihil Obstat
Dec 3rd 2007, 07:20 PM
I think that you're responding prematurely and missing the point...

KingFisher
Dec 3rd 2007, 08:57 PM
dhtraveler HI

Yes, I assumed wrong. If salvation was the same in the Old Testament, how could Job be saved If his sins had not been forgiven? Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?---."

God said "have you seen my servant Job." Job said "and the servant is free from his master." And Paul said "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

God said "Wilt thou disannul my judgment: wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" God said "Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee."

terrell

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last
on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,that in my
flesh I shall see God.

He had faith in his redeemer! :pp

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

Hebrews11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Although the promise (the redeemer) had not came at the time, they had faith that God could and would save them. They had faith in the redeemer to come.

God bless, :hug:
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 10:49 PM
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last
on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,that in my
flesh I shall see God.

He had faith in his redeemer! :pp

God bless, :hug:
KingFisher

Hi

Couldn't any unredeemed Jew say the same thing? Are they not still waiting for their redeemer to come.

God said, Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job said, Job 42:3 "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."

Just prior to Job saying he knew his redeemer liveth, he said this. Job 19:10 "He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree."

Any good Pharisee could quote scripture and say their redeemer liveth, and will see him in the latter end.

Romans 10:2 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." (This is what God said to Job in Job 38:2.)
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Job was in a debate with his three friends, and they were all quoting God's word.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

KingFisher
Dec 3rd 2007, 11:02 PM
Hi

Couldn't any unredeemed Jew say the same thing? Are they not still waiting for their redeemer to come.

God said, Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job said, Job 42:3 "Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not."

Just prior to Job saying he knew his redeemer liveth, he said this. Job 19:10 "He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree."

Any good Pharisee could quote scripture and say their redeemer liveth, and will see him in the latter end.

Romans 10:2 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." (This is what God said to Job in Job 38:2.)
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Job was in a debate with his three friends, and they were all quoting God's word.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Good question. That's why I included the scripture in Hebrews.
It is by faith...
If he truly had faith he... I'll post these again. I really can't say it
as clearly in my own words as the scripture shows.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

Hebrews11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 3rd 2007, 11:24 PM
Good question. That's why I included the scripture in Hebrews.
It is by faith...
If he truly had faith he... I'll post these again. I really can't say it
as clearly in my own words as the scripture shows.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

Hebrews11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

KingFisher

Have to go out right now. Do not have time to give an adequate answer.

Will reply later tonight or tomorrow.

terrell

Dandylionheart
Dec 4th 2007, 12:22 AM
I was asking if you believe that Job was saved when God called Job perfect and upright, or when Job repented?

terrell

Hi ya tgallison
I couldnt say. Im not even sure how the idea of being saved works. I looked into it a long time ago and i saw that it wasnt quite the way it was explained to me. Maybe i should find an old thread and see if i can find any scriptures in it to help me understand it. Take care.

Brother Mark
Dec 4th 2007, 12:27 AM
Job 1:1-2

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
NASU

Hmmm. Sounds like he is qualified to be an elder. Verse one states he was blameless and upright.

And in God's own words...

Job 1:8
8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASU

Perhaps Job did a better job of turning away from evil than all the saved men during that time. :hmm:

When God calls a man blameless and upright and says that man turns away from evil, that does not sound like a lost man. Not only that, but God protected Job. Why? Because Job feared him and the angel of the Lord encamps round about those that fear him.

Pleroo
Dec 4th 2007, 01:06 AM
Terrell, I came across something in my reading today and thought of your thread. Perhaps you will appreciate it. :)

Whenever Christ comes, whenever God bestows mercy, the light of His countenance is our light, His appearing is our vision, and His presence is our heaven. If we just touch Him, we see light! In the midst of great adversity Job cried out, “I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I SEE GOD: whom I shall SEE FOR MYSELF, AND MINE EYES SHALL BEHOLD, and not another” (Job 19:25-27). Job believed deeply within his heart that in some future distant day he would see God, but what he failed to understand was that at that very moment God was working mightily within him to bring that very reality to pass in his experience. It was only a short time until this same Job cried out in ecstatic wonder, “I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear, but NOW mine eye seeth Thee!” (Job 42:5). God was unveiled to Job in the crucible of his testing and proving. First he had declared that he would see God in the latter day, but his confession became changed to NOW!


Could it not be that the Spirit is revealing to us that the “latter day” is not a date on the calendar, but a dimension of our own experiencing of Christ? The apostles referred again and again to “these last days” as they were moving from the old covenant to the new, from Moses to Christ, from law to grace, from a carnal understanding of the Word to a spiritual, and from shadow to reality. For them it was truly the last days of one order and the dawning of another within themselves! It is easy to shove the purposes of God in us off to some distant time or age, but God would have us enter them now! Our latter day becomes the time of transition in our own experience, whereby we move out of one understanding and experience into another. ~JPEby

tgallison
Dec 4th 2007, 05:24 PM
Good question. That's why I included the scripture in Hebrews.
It is by faith...
If he truly had faith he... I'll post these again. I really can't say it
as clearly in my own words as the scripture shows.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

Hebrews11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

KingFisher Hi

Agree with all your scripture on faith. Faith is with the heart and not just with the lips alone. There are many people who have faith that there is a God, and go about to do good works to please him.

Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

God said to Job, "---wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous." (Job 40:8)

Job's faith was based on his own righteousness. Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain my own ways before him."

Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." These words turned out not to be true, because in Job 42:6 Job said, "Wherefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes."

Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness and it clothed me: my Judgement was as a robe and a diadem." The righteousness that Job put on was his own, not God's.

Can a self righteous person be saved? Could Job save himself?

God said to Job, "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." (Job 40:14)

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 4th 2007, 05:58 PM
Hi ya tgallison
I couldnt say. Im not even sure how the idea of being saved works. I looked into it a long time ago and i saw that it wasnt quite the way it was explained to me. Maybe i should find an old thread and see if i can find any scriptures in it to help me understand it. Take care.

Dandylionheart HI

Saved means to be rescued. It occurs 104 times in the KJV. In Job's case, rescued from the comdemnation of the sin of Adam.

Perhaps the best picture is found in John 3:3. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (4) "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?

Elihu gave us a picture of this in Job 33:24-25. "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth.

terrell

KingFisher
Dec 4th 2007, 07:57 PM
KingFisher Hi

Agree with all your scripture on faith. Faith is with the heart and not just with the lips alone. There are many people who have faith that there is a God, and go about to do good works to please him.

Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (2) For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

God said to Job, "---wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous." (Job 40:8)

Job's faith was based on his own righteousness. Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain my own ways before him."

Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." These words turned out not to be true, because in Job 42:6 Job said, "Wherefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes."

Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness and it clothed me: my Judgement was as a robe and a diadem." The righteousness that Job put on was his own, not God's.

Can a self righteous person be saved? Could Job save himself?

God said to Job, "Then will I confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee." (Job 40:14)

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Hey terrell,

Thanks for bearing with me.

First, to answer your last two questions plainly I know that we
both agree the answer is no.

Now going back to your question that I originally quoted.


If salvation was the same in the Old Testament, how
could Job be saved If his sins had not been forgiven?


That's what I was showing with the Hebrews quotes…"by faith"

So I guess the real question your asking is did Job have this faith.

Again by Job's own mouth he said…
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand
at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
that in my flesh I shall see God.

I think this shows he knew his need of a redeemer. Man I tell you,
the first time I read this testimony of Job it made the hair on my neck
stand up. One of my favorite songs is Nicole C. Mullen's Redeemer.
What a powerful message!

Yea I know, sure Job said things that in the end he was ashamed of…:cry:
but he did repent.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.

6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

I'm singing that song right now...
He lives! Yes, my redeemer lives! :bounce:
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 4th 2007, 08:07 PM
Job 1:1-2

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
NASU

Hmmm. Sounds like he is qualified to be an elder. Verse one states he was blameless and upright.

And in God's own words...

Job 1:8
8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
NASU

Perhaps Job did a better job of turning away from evil than all the saved men during that time. :hmm:

When God calls a man blameless and upright and says that man turns away from evil, that does not sound like a lost man. Not only that, but God protected Job. Why? Because Job feared him and the angel of the Lord encamps round about those that fear him.

Brother Mark Greetings

Have you known any elders that were perfect and upright, sort of like the Pharisee. They were self righteous. But God never would have said that they were perfect and upright.

Job 2:3 "---and still he holdeth fast his integrity.---."

Job 2:9 "Then said his wife to him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity?---."

Job 31:6 "Let me be weighed in the balance, that God may know my integrity."

Could God have been talking about Job's own integrity when he declared Job was perfect and upright? Could Job's integrity be equated to his own self righteousness?

Do you know any self righteous people that say, my good out weighs my bad?

It would seem that perfect and upright would mean that Job was right with God. As you examine the other forty chapters, a different picture appears.

JOB WAS WITHOUT WISDOM

Job 6:13 "Is not my help in me? And is wisdom driven quite from me?"

Job 28:12 "But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding?

Job 34:35 "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom."

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth council by words without knowledge?"

WHO IS WISDOM?

Proverbs 8:34-35 "Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 4th 2007, 09:10 PM
Hey terrell,

Thanks for bearing with me.

First, to answer your last two questions plainly I know that we
both agree the answer is no.

Now going back to your question that I originally quoted.


That's what I was showing with the Hebrews quotes…"by faith"

So I guess the real question your asking is did Job have this faith.

Again by Job's own mouth he said…
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand
at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
that in my flesh I shall see God.

I think this shows he knew his need of a redeemer. Man I tell you,
the first time I read this testimony of Job it made the hair on my neck
stand up. One of my favorite songs is Nicole C. Mullen's Redeemer.
What a powerful message!

Yea I know, sure Job said things that in the end he was ashamed of…:cry:
but he did repent.

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2 “I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

4 Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.

6 Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

I'm singing that song right now...
He lives! Yes, my redeemer lives! :bounce:
KingFisher

KingFisher HI

I mostly sing with my heart, when it comes out of my lips it is not as good.

We agree that the self righteous can not save themselves. We also agree that in Job 42:1-6 that Job had saving faith.

We disagree over Job 19:25. In Job 42:3 Job said that he spoke things to wonderful for him, that he understood not. I believe this is the case in Job 19:25.

In his debate with his three friends, they all said wonderful things about God, just as anyone would who was quoting scripture. We can quote scripture and yet not understand it.

Job said to Zopar, "But I have understanding as well as you: I am not inferior to you: yea who knoweth not such things as these?" They were all justifying their stand in their debate using words from God. That did not mean they understood them.

You are saying Job was not self righteous, but that is contrary to what everyone said including Job.

It started out with a terrifying vision from a spirit, speaking to Eliphaz.

Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" Compare this with what God said to Job. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

And then we have Elihu, Job 32:2---against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God." Job 34:5 "For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment:"

"The three friends ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes." (Job 32:1)

Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." Job had to eat these words in Job 42:6.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 4th 2007, 09:17 PM
Terrell, I came across something in my reading today and thought of your thread. Perhaps you will appreciate it. :)

Whenever Christ comes, whenever God bestows mercy, the light of His countenance is our light, His appearing is our vision, and His presence is our heaven. If we just touch Him, we see light! In the midst of great adversity Job cried out, “I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I SEE GOD: whom I shall SEE FOR MYSELF, AND MINE EYES SHALL BEHOLD, and not another” (Job 19:25-27). Job believed deeply within his heart that in some future distant day he would see God, but what he failed to understand was that at that very moment God was working mightily within him to bring that very reality to pass in his experience. It was only a short time until this same Job cried out in ecstatic wonder, “I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear, but NOW mine eye seeth Thee!” (Job 42:5). God was unveiled to Job in the crucible of his testing and proving. First he had declared that he would see God in the latter day, but his confession became changed to NOW!


Could it not be that the Spirit is revealing to us that the “latter day” is not a date on the calendar, but a dimension of our own experiencing of Christ? The apostles referred again and again to “these last days” as they were moving from the old covenant to the new, from Moses to Christ, from law to grace, from a carnal understanding of the Word to a spiritual, and from shadow to reality. For them it was truly the last days of one order and the dawning of another within themselves! It is easy to shove the purposes of God in us off to some distant time or age, but God would have us enter them now! Our latter day becomes the time of transition in our own experience, whereby we move out of one understanding and experience into another. ~JPEby

Pleroo Hi

It sounds right to me. Thank you for sharing.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

KingFisher
Dec 5th 2007, 01:31 PM
KingFisher HI

I mostly sing with my heart, when it comes out of my lips it is not as good.

Yea, it's certainly not as good when it comes out of my lips also. My
2 year old daughter thinks that I sing good though. :D


We agree that the self righteous can not save themselves. We also agree that in Job 42:1-6 that Job had saving faith.

Awesome! :bounce:



We disagree over Job 19:25. In Job 42:3 Job said that he spoke things to wonderful for him, that he understood not. I believe this is the case in Job 19:25.

In his debate with his three friends, they all said wonderful things about God, just as anyone would who was quoting scripture. We can quote scripture and yet not understand it.

Job said to Zopar, "But I have understanding as well as you: I am not inferior to you: yea who knoweth not such things as these?" They were all justifying their stand in their debate using words from God. That did not mean they understood them.


What scripture did they have to quote?


You are saying Job was not self righteous, but that is contrary to what everyone said including Job.

I never said that. Go back and reread my posts.
*for the record I do believe he was self righteous*
That's why I said this...
Me:

Yea I know, sure Job said things that in the end he was ashamed of…:cry:
but he did repent.




It started out with a terrifying vision from a spirit, speaking to Eliphaz.

Job 4:17 "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?" Compare this with what God said to Job. Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

And then we have Elihu, Job 32:2---against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God." Job 34:5 "For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment:"

"The three friends ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes." (Job 32:1)

Job 27:6 "My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live." Job had to eat these words in Job 42:6.

In Jesus Christ, terrell


Yea, Job said some things that he had to repent of.
Even though I was saved some years ago I've been guilty of
self righteousness at times. God humbled me too.

It doesn't change my tune though. I still sing my redeemer lives.

Enjoying the discussion,
KingFisher

Brother Mark
Dec 5th 2007, 01:34 PM
Brother Mark Greetings

Have you known any elders that were perfect and upright, sort of like the Pharisee. They were self righteous. But God never would have said that they were perfect and upright.

Sure. Except they were perfect and upright in their own eyes. Whereas, Job was perfect and upright in the eyes of God. God himself said there was none like him in the entire world.

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 02:19 PM
Yea, it's certainly not as good when it comes out of my lips also. My
2 year old daughter thinks that I sing good though. :D
Awesome! :bounce:

What scripture did they have to quote?

I never said that. Go back and reread my posts.
*for the record I do believe he was self righteous*
That's why I said this...
Me:

Yea, Job said some things that he had to repent of.
Even though I was saved some years ago I've been guilty of
self righteousness at times. God humbled me too.

It doesn't change my tune though. I still sing my redeemer lives.

Enjoying the discussion,
KingFisher

KingFisher greetings

Innocence is wonderful !!

The term I used was God's word. Job 23:12 "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips: I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." Have no Idea how he received it. In Job 12:24--13:2 Job talks about God's chosen people in the wilderness.

Sorry, when you said your own righteousness can not get you into heaven, I assumed you saw Job as such. I was wrong.

In your own selfrighteousness, did you ever claim yours to be greator than God's.

Job 35:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?"

Job 40:8 "Wilt thou also diannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?

Amen, terrell

KingFisher
Dec 5th 2007, 03:14 PM
KingFisher greetings

Innocence is wonderful !!

Yea, I know one day she'll grow up and think I sing like a mule.



The term I used was God's word. Job 23:12 "Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips: I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food." Have no Idea how he received it. In Job 12:24--13:2 Job talks about God's chosen people in the wilderness.

In the below quote is why I thought that you meant that they
were using scripture...



In his debate with his three friends, they all said wonderful things about God, just as anyone would who was quoting scripture. We can quote scripture and yet not understand it.

I understand what you meant now. My bad!



Sorry, when you said your own righteousness can not get you into heaven, I assumed you saw Job as such. I was wrong.

Cool!



In your own selfrighteousness, did you ever claim yours to be greator than God's.

No I never claimed that outright but...
What is self-righteousness, if it is not putting ourselves before God?

Thankfully God cared enough for me to humble my heart.

God bless,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 06:22 PM
Yea, I know one day she'll grow up and think I sing like a mule.

In the below quote is why I thought that you meant that they
were using scripture...

I understand what you meant now. My bad!

Cool!

No I never claimed that outright but...
What is self-righteousness, if it is not putting ourselves before God?

Thankfully God cared enough for me to humble my heart.

God bless,
KingFisher

KingFisher

One thing I know for sure. She won't think you are as smart as she does now. Right around 14 or so. All 14 year olds know more than their parents.

I made a mistake when I used the word scripture. Because it doesn't say what form, only word.

If you look at the Book of Job in the light of chapter 33, where Elihu claims to be speaking in God's place, and see the rebirth, the ransom, and the reason for the affliction, you might look at Job in a different light.

In chapter 7:21 Job asks God why he had not been forgiven. If your not forgiven, your not born again, right?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

KingFisher
Dec 5th 2007, 08:03 PM
If you look at the Book of Job in the light of chapter 33, where Elihu claims to be speaking in God's place, and see the rebirth, the ransom, and the reason for the affliction, you might look at Job in a different light.


My gears are grinding.
Ok help me out. Where is the reason of the affliction given in ch 33?

Thanks,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 09:40 PM
My gears are grinding.
Ok help me out. Where is the reason of the affliction given in ch 33?

Thanks,
KingFisher

KingFisher

The chapter starts out by Elihu telling or demanding Job to listen to all his words. In verse five he says to Job, if you can answer me, set your words in order, stand up.

Verse six is the key verse, because Job has been pleading with God to send a mediator, a man such as himself that wouldn't terrify him.

Job 33:6 "Behold I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (If your not using a KJV, your bible has omitted the first part of this verse.)

KingFisher
Dec 5th 2007, 09:55 PM
KingFisher

The chapter starts out by Elihu telling or demanding Job to listen to all his words. In verse five he says to Job, if you can answer me, set your words in order, stand up.

Verse six is the key verse, because Job has been pleading with God to send a mediator, a man such as himself that wouldn't terrify him.

Job 33:6 "Behold I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (If your not using a KJV, your bible has omitted the first part of this verse.)

Well I agree with all of the above but...
You lost me. :dunno:
How does the above state the reason for Job's affliction?

Thanks again,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 10:07 PM
My gears are grinding.
Ok help me out. Where is the reason of the affliction given in ch 33?

Thanks,
KingFisher

Had to post that before I finished. Having trouble with the computor.

Verse 7 "Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Verses 9-12 he states the false accusations Job has made against God, and decares Job to be unjust.

Verses 14-15 he tells Job that God speaks to man in visions in the night, yet man perceives it not. Elihu said, God speaks to them not just once, but twice. Job acknowledge earlier. Job 7:14 "Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:"

Verses 17-18 He says why he does it. That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. To keep back his soul from the pit.

In verse 14 he has already said that man perceived it not. This is like speaking to your child and when he doesn't listen. you punish him. If Job didn't listen. his soul is heading for the pit. So this is what God does when we don't listen, he brings us down so that we might look up.

l9 "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain." He is describing Job's condition.

KingFisher
Dec 5th 2007, 10:39 PM
Had to post that before I finished. Having trouble with the computor.

Verse 7 "Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee."

Verses 9-12 he states the false accusations Job has made against God, and decares Job to be unjust.

Verses 14-15 he tells Job that God speaks to man in visions in the night, yet man perceives it not. Elihu said, God speaks to them not just once, but twice. Job acknowledge earlier. Job 7:14 "Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:"

Verses 17-18 He says why he does it. That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. To keep back his soul from the pit.

In verse 14 he has already said that man perceived it not. This is like speaking to your child and when he doesn't listen. you punish him. If Job didn't listen. his soul is heading for the pit. So this is what God does when we don't listen, he brings us down so that we might look up.

l9 "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain." He is describing Job's condition.

So you are saying that Job was being afflicted for some things he said.
*and I agree he said some things that in the end he was sorry for*


8Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice
of thy words, saying,

This is an example of a few Elihu quoted:

9I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there
iniquity in me.

10Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,

11He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.

The problem with that thought is that Job made those statements
and all the other quotable statements because of his already occuring
afflictions.

God bless,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 10:47 PM
My gears are grinding.
Ok help me out. Where is the reason of the affliction given in ch 33?

Thanks,
KingFisher

Verse 20 "that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. (21) His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen: and his bones that were not seen stick out." This is God speaking to Job through Elihu. This is Job's day in court that he asked for and God is presenting the evidence through a daysman, that would not frighten Job. Look at the next to last verse, verse 32. "If thou hast any thing to say, answer me : speak, for I desire to justify thee." Notice that Job has nothing to say during all of Elihu's dialogue, but he had continually produced strong arguments against his three friends.

Verse 22 again Elihu is reminding Job that his soul is drawing near unto the grave.

In verse 23 Elihu tell Job that if their is a witness for God's righteousness(God's righteousness is Jesus Christ, the one in whom we are made righteous), [verse 24] that God will be mercyful and say, deliver him from the pit, I have found a ransom.(Jesus Christ is the only ransom that there is that will save our souls.)

tgallison
Dec 5th 2007, 10:56 PM
So you are saying that Job was being afflicted for some things he said.
*and I agree he said some things that in the end he was sorry for*

8Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice
of thy words, saying,

This is an example of a few Elihu quoted:

9I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there
iniquity in me.

10Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,

11He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.

The problem with that thought is that Job made those statements
and all the other quotable statements because of his already occuring
afflictions.

God bless,
KingFisher

KingFisher I am having problems posting so haven't been able to complete it. Will try tomorrow.

The problem is, if Job was already saved, then God is saying Job could lose his salvation by threatening him with losing his soul. And that is not possible.

will get back to you tomorrow.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 6th 2007, 02:31 AM
Sure. Except they were perfect and upright in their own eyes. Whereas, Job was perfect and upright in the eyes of God. God himself said there was none like him in the entire world.

Brother Mark sorry so long getting back to you.

In chapter one verse three it says because of Job's wealth, he was the greatest in the East. So God had greatly blessed him, like he had blessed Israel. They were chief of the people of the earth.(Job 12:24)

Could you say Saul was perfect and upright before the Lord as he persecuted the infidels. He was perfect in the law. He eschewed evil and feared the Lord. But he wasn't saved. Yet he was God's chosen to present the Gospel of Grace.

Job 29:17 "And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth."

We would be in agreement, if it wasn't for the other forty chapters that paint a picture of a self righteous man that needed God's righteousness.

Job is a picture of Israel. Romans 10:1-4 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.(Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?") For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."(Job 40:8 "---wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?"

terrell

tgallison
Dec 6th 2007, 03:17 AM
So you are saying that Job was being afflicted for some things he said.
*and I agree he said some things that in the end he was sorry for*

God bless,
KingFisher

KingFisher Greetings

No I am not saying that Job was being afflicted for some things he said.

He was afflicted to bring him to salvation.

He was self righteous. He needed God's righteousness. Verse 24 says I have found a ransom for the soul of Job, and that ransom is the righteous one, the saviour, Jesus Christ.

Verse 25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth." The only way to have flesh fresher than a child's is to be in the mother's womb.

John 3:3-4 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

In Jesus Christ, terrell

KingFisher
Dec 6th 2007, 04:29 PM
KingFisher Greetings

No I am not saying that Job was being afflicted for some things he said.


Ok I just wanted to make sure. I've heard people say that before.


He was afflicted to bring him to salvation.

I have always understood the affliction to be one for Job's betterment.
A kind of refining. A placing in the fire to hammer out any impurities.
All done in love.



He was self righteous. He needed God's righteousness. Verse 24 says I have found a ransom for the soul of Job, and that ransom is the righteous one, the saviour, Jesus Christ.

Verse 25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth." The only way to have flesh fresher than a child's is to be in the mother's womb.

John 3:3-4 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

In Jesus Christ, terrell

terrell I very much appreciate your patience with me.

I'm beginning to understand your points. Some are fresh ideas
I need to study out in light of scripture some more.

If I have any more questions I'll start a new thread so I don't derail this
one any futher than I already have.

Much appreciated,
KingFisher

tgallison
Dec 12th 2007, 02:55 AM
I don't pretend to understand the serpent, the devil, Satan, the dragon, the beast. One from the other and their interrelationship. I do believe there is a trinity to the evil one.

In the study of Job there seems to be a relationship between the evil one, behemoth, and leviathan.

This will be a presentation of some of the relationship between them, found in the study of Job.

BEHEMOTH---After three verses about pride(Job 40:11-13) God introduces behemoth.(large beast)

Job 40:15 starts out with"Behold". God really wants Job to pay attention. "behemoth which I made with thee;"

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God made.--."

There is a relationship here, they are both described as beasts. Notice that the serpent is described as being of the field, but as we know Satan, or we think we know that he is an angelic being.

Job 40:15 "---he eateth grass as an ox."

Eating grass as an oxen(Singular) was the punishment for Nebuchadnezzar, when he exalted himself as God. (Dan 4:32) Satan is the king over the children of pride as we see in Matthew 4:8 that Satan held the kingdoms of this world in his hands.

Job 40:16 "Lo now, his strength is in the loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly." (Best guess is this is speaking of the offspring of Satan, whether physical or spiritual.)

Will continue behemoth in the next posting. Feel free to comment.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 03:04 AM
I think Leviathin is definitely a type of Satan. It's interesting how you tie behemoth in there too. Interesting indeed.

tgallison
Dec 12th 2007, 01:47 PM
Job 40:17 "He moveth his tail like a cedar,-----." Look at another strong tail.

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Satan is depicted as a cedar tree in Ezekiel, therefore you could say (Job 40:17) "He moveth his tail like (Satan or the dragon in Revelation 12:4)."

The cedar tree in the garden of Eden. Ezekiel 31:3 "Behold the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature: and his top was among the thick boughs."

Ezekiel 31:9-10 "I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height."

Cont.

tgallison
Dec 12th 2007, 03:24 PM
Job 40:18 "His bones are as strong pieces of brass: his bones are like bars of iron." This sends us back to Daniel 4.

Here in Daniel 4 is a picture of the same tree that is in Ezekiel 31, that was in the Garden of Eden.

Daniel 4:11 "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth." Ezekiel 31:3 "---and of high stature:---" Ezekiel 31:5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field,---" Daniel 4:12 "The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it. And the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it." Ezekiel 31:6 "All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beast of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations."

Look at the location of this tree. Daniel 4:10 "--I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth,----." Compare with Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,---" Both Ezekiel and Daniel say the tree had much fruit, that it was an exalted tree, perhaps a tree to be desired. Ezekiel also makes it very clear it was in the garden of God, the garden of Eden.

What kind of fruit would a cedar tree bare?

tgallison
Dec 13th 2007, 02:17 PM
Job 40:18 says behemoth's bones are brass and iron. In Daniel 4:14 a holy one cries out, cut down the tree(the tree IMO reflects Satan) and then Daniel 4:15 "Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field: and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth."

Brass represents ruling.

Iron represents crushing and bruising.

In Daniel 2:39 it says the brass kingdom shall rule the earth, and in Daniel 2:40 it says iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things, also shall it break in pieces and bruise. (The Aramaic word for bruise is found only in this verse.)

The Hebrew word for bruise, shuwph (strong's #H7780) is found four times. Twice in Genesis 3:15, once in Job 9:17, and once in Psalm 139:9 where it is translated cover.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Does the brass and iron bones of behemoth represent the ruling power and the bruising power of Satan?

Romans 16:20 "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

Not sure how this relates but in Genesis 4:22 Tubal-cain is described as an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron.

In Ezekiel 27:13 Tubal is one of the merchants that traded in men and brass. This seems significant in as much as it is talking about Tyrus. In the next chapter of Ezekiel it describes the prince of Tyrus and the king of Tyrus.

The king of Tyrus is definitely Satan. (IMO) Ezekiel 28:12-16 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God: Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God: every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth: and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God: thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.(In Job Satan walked up and down in the earth.) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of the merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therfore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

The prince of Tyrus was wiser than Daniel. Ezekiel 28:3 "Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel, there is no secret that they can hide from thee:"

Cont.

tgallison
Dec 13th 2007, 11:46 PM
Job 40:19 "He is chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him."

As you study this, there are correlations to be seen.

Behemoth means beast.

Leviathan is a serpent and dragon. Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent: and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

So we have both a beast and a dragon.

Revelation 13:4 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?

Comparing Job 40:19 with Revelation 13:4

Job 40:19 "He is chief of the ways of God:--." Revelation 13:4 "Who is like unto the beast?---?"

Job 40:19 "---: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him." Revelation 13:4 "---? who is able to make war with him?"

(What is the sword of God that can approach unto him?) Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Hebrew's 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty God."

Revelation 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is the beast called the tempter and the devil in Matthew 4. This is the one that offered the kingdoms to Jesus in Matthew 4:8-9. This is the beast that is called behemoth in the Book of Job.

The dragon gave power to the beast. Revelation 13:4 Leviathan gives power to behemoth.

cont.

tgallison
Dec 14th 2007, 01:31 PM
Sort of like a father and son relationship---Or a prince and king relationship

There appears to be a relationship between behemoth and the prince of Tyrus, perhaps they are one and the same.

Ezekiel 28:3 "Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel: there is no secret that they can hide from thee. Job 40:19 "He is chief of the ways of God:---."

There appears to be a relationship between leviathan (King over all the children of pride: Job 41:34) and the king of Tyrus, and the king of Egypt. Job 41:34, Ezekiel 28:12-29, Ezekiel 29:1-9.

According to Matthew 4:8-9 the Devil (Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.") had dominion over the kingdoms of this world, therefore also dominion over the kings of this world.

King of Tyrus---Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth: and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God. thou hast walked up and down in the earth in the midst of the stones of fire." (Is not this the Satan that appeared upon the holy mountain of God, and presented himself to God? And walks up and down in the earth.
Job 1:6-7). (Is it not also leviathan that beholds all high things? Job 41:34)

King of Egypt---Ezekiel 29:3 "Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers,--." (Compare with) Isaiah 27:1 "---even leviathan that crooked serpent: and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

Ezekiel 29:4 "But I will put hooks in thy jaws,---." (Compare with) Job 41:2 "Canst thou put and hook into his nose? Or bore his jaw through with a thorn?"

King of Tyrus---Ezekiel 28:17 "---thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:--" (Compare with) Job 41:32 "He maketh a path to shine after him:---."

Ezekiel 28:18 "---therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,---" (Compare with the fire that is already in leviathan.) Job 41:19 "Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out."

cont.

tgallison
Dec 15th 2007, 02:48 AM
Earlier when Revelation 19:19 was posted I made no comment on it but will do so now.

Rev. 19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

This verse shows the order. First the beast that gave the kings their kingdoms, then the kings, and then their armies. So when the king of Egypt is described as a dragon, it is speaking of both the king and the one from whom his power is derived.(Ezekiel 29:3) And when the king of Tyrus is described as being in the Garden of God, God is speaking of the one from whom the power is derived.(Ezekiel 28:12-13

The names great dragon, old serpent, the Devil, and Satan are all one in the same.(Revelation 12:9)

In Revelation 13:2 we see that the dragon gave the beast his power and authority. Sort of like a king and prince relationship, or father and son.

Job 40:20-22 "Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. The shady trees cover him with their shadow: the willows of the brook compass him about."

You really have to study Ezekiel chapter 31 to see were the beasts get shade from the cedar tree and his plants, and how that tree is Satan, the dragon, and how he was in the garden of Eden, and how those beasts shall be upon his branches, and that they all will go down to hell, to the pit, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Ezekiel 31:17 "They also went into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword: and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen."

The reason God is talking to Job about behemoth is because behemoth is the arm of Satan. Just as Jesus is the arm of God.(Isaiah 53:1-2 "Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness: and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.")

Notice the contrast between the exalted tree who is desired, and the tender plant that is in the dry ground and has no beauty.

Job is going with those in Ezekiel 31:17 to the pit unless a ransom is found.

Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom."

The next verse describes being born again. Job 33:25 "His flesh shall be fresher than a childs: he shall return to the days of his youth:"

John 3:3-4 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" (This is how Job's flesh shall be fresher than a childs:)

Job 40:23 "Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth."(When we read this it sounds a little silly, but not to God, he started out by saying Behold.)

If you are going to cast out of your mouth a flood of water to carry away Israel you first have to take in a river of water. Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

One would suspect the flood of water is a parable. Isaiah 59:19 "So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the West, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him."

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 16th 2007, 12:20 PM
I made a statement about brass that is incorrect. It does not reflect ruling like I stated though it is associated with it. It depicts imperfection, in as much as when put through the fire it doesn't hold up. Gold, when put through the fire, becomes more pure. So does silver.

In the tabernacle, the alter and some things pertaining to the outer court were brass. The armor of Goliath and the shackles of Samson were brass.

I sometimes make brash statements, and I apoligize for it.

terrell

Kahtar
Dec 16th 2007, 05:26 PM
I sometimes make brash statements, and I apoligize for it.
terrell:lol: Would that be 'brass' statements?
Sorry, just struck me funny.;)

Your humbleness is appreciated, a Godly attribute.

TrustGzus
Dec 18th 2007, 05:23 PM
Interesting thread. However, as I read the opening post, I read
You need to put the commentaries down and read the Book.Hasn't this thread becoming a running, living commentary on Job? Aren't even the seven false premises listed in the OP a commentary on Job? I don't see anyway to practice the advice to put down commentaries and read the book. We should read the book. Haven't we all read the book before reading any commentaries? However, if I read on in the thread, I'm reading commentary. If I discuss it with someone, then I'm hearing their commentary.

What do you think?

tgallison
Dec 18th 2007, 05:36 PM
Interesting thread. However, as I read the opening post, I readHasn't this thread becoming a running, living commentary on Job? Aren't even the seven false premises listed in the OP a commentary on Job? I don't see anyway to practice the advice to put down commentaries and read the book. We should read the book. Haven't we all read the book before reading any commentaries? However, if I read on in the thread, I'm reading commentary. If I discuss it with someone, then I'm hearing their commentary.

What do you think?

You are absolutely right. I AM GUILTY.

I do feel we should first form our opinions from the Word, before we read someones opinion. And check to make sure that what they are saying lines up with the scripture. If we do it the other way, we make the Bible fit our formed opinions.

In Christ, terrell

TrustGzus
Dec 18th 2007, 07:42 PM
7 FALSE PREMISES

1. False premise that Job suffered without cause.

2. False premise that God said the speech of the three friends was untrue.

3. False premise that salvation is different in the Old Testament then in the New Testament.

4. False premise that if Job had died at the end of the second chapter he would have had salvation.

5. False premise that Elihu was a rash young man.

6. False premise that Behemoth was after the order of the animal kingdom.

7. False premise that Leviathan was after the order of the animal Kingdom.

You need to put the commentaries down and read the Book.Hey Terrell,

As I read these and sort through them, if I understand them correctly, I agree with you about premise 3. Salvation is the same in both Testaments. #'s 1, 2 & 5 I might agree with. I'd have to check out your explanation more on those. 6 & 7 are interesting to read your thoughts and other's thoughts on. I don't see a point in getting too dogmatic on them.

#4 I don't see. In post #16 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1457116&postcount=16), ddlewis86 brought up Job 1:8 and Job 1:1. You said in reply (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1457265&postcount=20) that you think the book's declaration of Job in these verses was Job's own self-righteousness.

Let's look at Job 1:8 again and note that this is God talking. This is God describing Job . . .
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Job 1:8). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


God describes Job as:
perfect
upright
fearing God
eschewing evilOn top of that, God called Job my servant and that there was none like him! That's an amazing description.

What wording could the text use to convince you that Job was saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

tgallison
Dec 20th 2007, 04:20 AM
Hey Terrell,

As I read these and sort through them, if I understand them correctly, I agree with you about premise 3. Salvation is the same in both Testaments. #'s 1, 2 & 5 I might agree with. I'd have to check out your explanation more on those. 6 & 7 are interesting to read your thoughts and other's thoughts on. I don't see a point in getting too dogmatic on them.

#4 I don't see. In post #16 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1457116&postcount=16), ddlewis86 brought up Job 1:8 and Job 1:1. You said in reply (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1457265&postcount=20) that you think the book's declaration of Job in these verses was Job's own self-righteousness.

Let's look at Job 1:8 again and note that this is God talking. This is God describing Job . . . God describes Job as:
perfect
upright
fearing God
eschewing evilOn top of that, God called Job my servant and that there was none like him! That's an amazing description.

What wording could the text use to convince you that Job was saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

Joe Hi

Would like to compare Paul to Job.

NIV Job 1:8 "Then the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him: he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

In Job 1:3 it say he was the greatest man among all the people of the East, because of his possessions. There was another man just like him, with the exception of his wealth in the New Testament.

NIV Philippians 3:4-6 "though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrew: in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless."(The KJV uses blameless in place of faultless.)

There appears to be no difference between Paul and Job other than the amount of wealth Job had. Note that Paul had confidence in the flesh. He was self righteous("as for legalistic righteousness, faultness.")

Was Paul saved while his righteousness was in the flesh? While he was persecuting the church.

Job 29:17 "And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth."

Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem." (It would appear Job's righteousness was of the flesh.)

Romans 10:1-3 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (The first thing God said to Job. Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." (Elihu speaking to Job. 32:2 "Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?) (God said to Job. Job 40:8 "---? wilt thou condemn me that thou mayest be righteous?")

Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Job 33:24 "Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.")

In Jesus Christ, terrell

TrustGzus
Dec 20th 2007, 05:44 AM
Interesting, Terrell. However, should we judge Job's righteousness based on a comparison with Paul in Philippians or simply based on what the text states. Keep in mind, Job is usually regarded as the oldest book of the Bible. For centuries, if not millennia, people could not make the comparison you are making . . . until A.D. 64 or so. So what would one conclude prior to Philippians?

As I said, YWHW, himself, describes Job as:
my servant
perfect
upright
fearing God
eschewing evilThis isn't Job's description of himself. Then I would agree that such would be self-righteous. But no one fools God - Job included. Yet God describes him this way. God would know Job wasn't perfect. God would know Job wasn't upright. So why did God call him these things? Would God call him "my" servant? If Job was self-righteous, and not truly righteous, then why does God describe him this way?

Also, I asked what wording would convince you that Job was saved? How could God make that point clear to you? How would the text read? Perhaps I missed your answer.

Grace & peace,

Joe

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 12:48 AM
Interesting, Terrell. However, should we judge Job's righteousness based on a comparison with Paul in Philippians or simply based on what the text states. Keep in mind, Job is usually regarded as the oldest book of the Bible. For centuries, if not millennia, people could not make the comparison you are making . . . until A.D. 64 or so. So what would one conclude prior to Philippians?

As I said, YWHW, himself, describes Job as:
my servant
perfect
upright
fearing God
eschewing evilThis isn't Job's description of himself. Then I would agree that such would be self-righteous. But no one fools God - Job included. Yet God describes him this way. God would know Job wasn't perfect. God would know Job wasn't upright. So why did God call him these things? Would God call him "my" servant? If Job was self-righteous, and not truly righteous, then why does God describe him this way?

Also, I asked what wording would convince you that Job was saved? How could God make that point clear to you? How would the text read? Perhaps I missed your answer.

Grace & peace,

Joe

Joe HI

You are not against comparing scripture with scripture, are you? Do you feel some scripture is not inspired?

Surely Paul has to be considered one of the most important writers of the New Testament. Who else said it was by grace, and not by works. (With just a few exceptions.) Who else, besides Paul, revealed so much of the New Testament to us?

I believe God is the author of all scripture, and all scripture has equal authority. So if Paul says he is blameless in the flesh, then I see no difference when God says Job is blameless in the flesh. When Paul was persecuting the Church, was he not a servant of God? He was zealous for God, blameless according to the law. He met Jesus and was saved by grace. The right arm of God, the one who was a ransom for his sins.

Job relates himself to a hired servant, not one born in the house. Job desired to be free from his master.

"How could God make the point clear that Job was saved from the beginning of the Book?"

He would have to remove the last forty chapters of the book of Job.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

TrustGzus
Dec 21st 2007, 01:08 AM
Greetings Terrell,

I'm going to bold questions I'd like you to answer.

I'm not against comparing Scripture with Scripture. I believe the 66 books in the Protestant Bible are θεόπνευστος (God-breathed). But how are you determining that Philippians 3 and Job 1 is a valid comparison? Elders are to be blameless according to 1 Timothy 3. Does every time the word blameless show up imply self-righteous?

Again, why does YWHW call Job "my" servant?
And again, what did people do until Philippians came along? They couldn't make your comparison. Were they helpless in understanding Job correctly?

FYI, I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm not asking these questions to put you on trial. I'm trying to honestly understand your conclusions and how you've come to them. It seems to me to take the words of YWHW at face value indicate a saved man. If you didn't have Philippians, i.e. if you were reading this book anytime before A.D. 60, would you come to the same conclusion you've come to?

He would have to remove the last forty chapters of the book of Job.So does this mean that the description of Job in chapter one isn't really the issue as to whether or not Job was saved, but the events of the remainder of the book? What about the last 40 chapters makes you think Job wasn't saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 02:19 AM
Greetings Terrell,

I'm going to bold questions I'd like you to answer.

I'm not against comparing Scripture with Scripture. I believe the 66 books in the Protestant Bible are θεόπνευστος (God-breathed). But how are you determining that Philippians 3 and Job 1 is a valid comparison? Elders are to be blameless according to 1 Timothy 3. Does every time the word blameless show up imply self-righteous?

Again, why does YWHW call Job "my" servant?
And again, what did people do until Philippians came along? They couldn't make your comparison. Were they helpless in understanding Job correctly?

FYI, I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm not asking these questions to put you on trial. I'm trying to honestly understand your conclusions and how you've come to them. It seems to me to take the words of YWHW at face value indicate a saved man. If you didn't have Philippians, i.e. if you were reading this book anytime before A.D. 60, would you come to the same conclusion you've come to?So does this mean that the description of Job in chapter one isn't really the issue as to whether or not Job was saved, but the events of the remainder of the book? What about the last 40 chapters makes you think Job wasn't saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

Joe Hi

I will answer one question at a time. I just lost 25 minutes of typing and can't remember what I wrote, so I will start over.

To the first question no. Blameless means a servant is doing every thing in his means to do what his master wants.

cont.

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 02:36 AM
Greetings Terrell,

I'm going to bold questions I'd like you to answer.

I'm not against comparing Scripture with Scripture. I believe the 66 books in the Protestant Bible are θεόπνευστος (God-breathed). But how are you determining that Philippians 3 and Job 1 is a valid comparison? Elders are to be blameless according to 1 Timothy 3. Does every time the word blameless show up imply self-righteous?

Again, why does YWHW call Job "my" servant?
And again, what did people do until Philippians came along? They couldn't make your comparison. Were they helpless in understanding Job correctly?

FYI, I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm not asking these questions to put you on trial. I'm trying to honestly understand your conclusions and how you've come to them. It seems to me to take the words of YWHW at face value indicate a saved man. If you didn't have Philippians, i.e. if you were reading this book anytime before A.D. 60, would you come to the same conclusion you've come to?So does this mean that the description of Job in chapter one isn't really the issue as to whether or not Job was saved, but the events of the remainder of the book? What about the last 40 chapters makes you think Job wasn't saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

"Why does God call Job his servant?

Joe if I had a servant that did everything I told him, and he did it with vigor, and I knew I could trust him because he was honest as the day is long, and I had a thousand servants that didn't match up to him in his work efforts, or his desire to please, then I could say that he was perfect, upright, and blameless. I could find no fault with him. But no matter how many good works you do, no matter how perfect you are, you cannot save your own soul. You need the ransom of God, and it is Jesus Christ.

cont.

TrustGzus
Dec 21st 2007, 02:43 AM
Hey Terrell,

I've noticed you lose what you type a lot. Is it because you are losing your internet connection or is it your computer itself? I've lost many posts due to losing an internet connection. If that's the case, perhaps type a reply in MS Word or some other type of word processor.

I hate to see so much of your effort go to waste. You've lost so many minutes over the weeks due to losing what you've typed.

Grace & peace to you,

Joe

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 03:01 AM
Joe you have heard me say that IMO Job relates to Israel. Here are some verses.

Nehemiah 1:6 "---for the children of Israel thy servants,---."

Isaiah 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."

Isaiah 44:20 "He feedeth on ashes(Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal: and he sat down among the ashes.): a deceived heart hath turned him aside(Job 41:3-4 "Will he make many supplications to thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?), that he cannot deliver his soul(Job 33:22 "Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.), nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand(Job 40:14 "Then I will confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.).
(21) "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me."

Jeremiah 2:14 "Is Israel a servant? Is he a home born slave? Why is he spoiled?"

Cont.

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 04:01 AM
Servant continued

Servant or Son

Proverbs 29:21 "He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become his son at length."

John 8:35 "An the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."

John 15:15 "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends: for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you."

Galatians 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son: and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Philemon 1:16 "Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?"

(Its my computer, having some one come tomorrow to fix it. They say the third time is a charm.)

Cont.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 21st 2007, 10:33 PM
Greetings Terrell,

Again, why does YWHW call Job "my" servant?
And again, what did people do until Philippians came along? They couldn't make your comparison. Were they helpless in understanding Job correctly?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

Joe you asked how could anyone know, prior to Philippians, that Job was not saved? Well here is one way.

What kind of servant was Job?

According to his own lips. Job 7:1-3 “Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? Are not his days also like a hireling? As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work; So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me.”

Job 14:6 “Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.” (Job is telling God to let him alone until his days as a hired servant are over.)

Hireling is only a temporary servant, he is not permanently bonded to the master. He is not a bond servant. He is not bonded to God.

He cannot eat of the Passover. He cannot partake of the Passover Lamb. Exodus 12:45 “A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.”

Leviticus 25:39-41 “And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant: But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile: And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.”

Webster’s definition of hireling---a person who is for hire; esp., one who will follow anyone’s orders for pay; mercenary

Job wanted to be free from his master. Job 3:19 The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Joe if you disagree with this, could you post scripture to that effect?

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Dec 28th 2007, 12:15 AM
Nebuchadnezzar was also a hired servant of God, as well as a Job. (Jeremiah 25:9) They shared one thing in common. The iron and brass bones of behemoth seem to be the same as the band of iron and brass that was to be left with the stump of the tree that represented Nebuchadnezzar and Satan.
(Daniel 4:15)

terrell

tgallison
Dec 31st 2007, 12:58 AM
Greetings Terrell,

I'm going to bold questions I'd like you to answer.

So does this mean that the description of Job in chapter one isn't really the issue as to whether or not Job was saved, but the events of the remainder of the book? What about the last 40 chapters makes you think Job wasn't saved?

Grace & peace to you, Terrell.

Joe

Joe Hi some reasons why Job was not saved(born again) in the beginning of the Book.

1. He wished he had never been born. (Job 3:3) If you are looking forward to being with the Lord, how could you say that?

2. He had no hope. (Job 6:11) My hope is in Jesus Christ. If there is no difference between the Old and New Testament, as far as salvation goes, other than one is looking forward and the other back, why did not Job have hope in God’s salvation? (God’s righteousness, Jesus Christ.)

3. Job did not know how to be just with God. (Job 9:2) Are we not justified in Jesus Christ?

4. One of the most important. Job’s sins were not forgiven, Job said it himself. (Job 7:21) How does one go to heaven carrying his sins with him?

5. Job was depending on his own right arm to save himself, according to God. Job 40:14 “Then will I also confess that thine own right hand can save thee.” Job was depending on his own works to save himself. Not possible.

6. Job was a hireling. (Job 7:1-3) (Job 14:6) Hirelings don’t belong to their master.

7. Then in (Job 41:4) God asks Job if he is making a covenant with Satan, if Job will take Satan for a servant for ever.

8. In (Job 33:22-24) Elihu tells Job if there is a witness of God’s righteousness, then God will be gracious to Job, and say I have found a ransom, to deliver his soul from the pit. (Romans 10:14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?)

Verse 25 is a picture of Job’s rebirth. It describes how Job’s flesh will be as one from the womb. (John 3:4 “Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he was old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?)

In Jesus Christ, terrell

tgallison
Mar 13th 2008, 12:05 AM
Just thought I would bring this up to see if there was any more questions.

Believe Job is an outline of God's dealings with man.